WEBVTT

00:00:00.300 --> 00:00:02.380
 Welcome to the Church Digital Podcast.

00:00:03.340 --> 00:00:07.220
 Through this podcast, we'll talk about the technological innovations within the church,

00:00:07.380 --> 00:00:11.040
 but more than tech for tech itself, we'll address deeper questions.

00:00:11.640 --> 00:00:13.260
 Is disciple-making possible digitally?

00:00:13.720 --> 00:00:15.720
 How should we approach the digital mission field?

00:00:16.020 --> 00:00:18.580
 Can a biblically grounded church operate in digital space?

00:00:19.020 --> 00:00:22.840
 Oh, and where does the metaverse and artificial intelligence fit into all of this?

00:00:23.640 --> 00:00:25.800
 Whether you're a big or small church,

00:00:25.800 --> 00:00:30.620
 the Church Digital's goal is to help churches like yours learn to be a multiplying church,

00:00:31.000 --> 00:00:32.500
 digitally and physically.

00:00:32.960 --> 00:00:34.640
 And now here's your host, Jeff Reed.

00:00:34.940 --> 00:00:38.220
 I did not have a good tech check today.

00:00:38.360 --> 00:00:45.240
 I was actually having a conversation with Nazarene Seminary, Nazarene Theological Seminary,

00:00:45.360 --> 00:00:46.840
 and oh my gosh, it was so good.

00:00:46.920 --> 00:00:48.220
 It was so good.

00:00:48.820 --> 00:00:53.340
 I love when people's eyes get opened up to the idea of digital ministry.

00:00:53.840 --> 00:00:58.520
 And Leighton and I jumped on this call with maybe 15 seminary students.

00:00:59.100 --> 00:01:03.920
 We've got a couple Asbury College students going through equipping digital missionaries right now.

00:01:04.440 --> 00:01:09.840
 And just like, oh my gosh, I think I made a girl cry on a seminary student cry today.

00:01:10.960 --> 00:01:23.760
 As she was realizing how her calling actually aligns with digital and how she's able to scale this digitally because she couldn't afford to do this physically.

00:01:23.960 --> 00:01:25.800
 Yeah, Leighton's jumping on the stream already.

00:01:26.020 --> 00:01:26.920
 It was fun.

00:01:27.320 --> 00:01:29.740
 Oh my gosh, that was the most fun that I've had.

00:01:30.180 --> 00:01:32.200
 I mean, it's Tuesday, but it's the most fun I've had this week.

00:01:32.440 --> 00:01:34.060
 Like, it was really cool.

00:01:34.560 --> 00:01:37.060
 And so, hey, welcome to The Church Digital.

00:01:37.880 --> 00:01:41.520
 We've got a really interesting conversation coming up today.

00:01:41.620 --> 00:01:42.940
 My name is Jeff Founder of The Church Digital.

00:01:43.860 --> 00:01:48.040
 This is episode 328.

00:01:49.580 --> 00:01:50.600
 I'm really bad at numbers.

00:01:50.880 --> 00:01:52.260
 You know, we've been doing these for so long.

00:01:52.320 --> 00:01:54.160
 I don't even know why we do numbers anymore.

00:01:54.340 --> 00:01:56.080
 Like, it all just, it all runs together.

00:01:56.680 --> 00:02:01.160
 I remember the first maybe five or seven episodes, but after then, it's just like random conversations.

00:02:01.840 --> 00:02:07.020
 And so, really looking forward to this conversation.

00:02:07.380 --> 00:02:15.820
 I, you know, Leighton's talking about it was a good cry of, wow, it can happen, how this woman was like realizing the ministry potential.

00:02:16.760 --> 00:02:27.620
 And I'll be honest, like, I think today we're going to see some, you know, I may cry here a little bit as we're dealing with the mental health capacity of digital ministry here.

00:02:27.620 --> 00:02:32.660
 And we met Laura Howe, who's with Hope May Strong.

00:02:32.880 --> 00:02:36.140
 And so, I'm going to push my magic button here and hopefully Laura pops on the screen.

00:02:36.220 --> 00:02:36.620
 There she is.

00:02:36.740 --> 00:02:37.380
 Laura Howe!

00:02:37.380 --> 00:02:38.060
 So, I don't know.

00:02:38.480 --> 00:02:38.760
 Aha!

00:02:39.060 --> 00:02:39.880
 We made it!

00:02:41.240 --> 00:02:42.080
 That's awesome.

00:02:43.000 --> 00:02:45.180
 Welcome to the chaos of The Church Digital.

00:02:45.340 --> 00:02:56.060
 Laura, I did not, and I'll own this, we'll probably edit this out, but I did not, I did not have an accurate tech check today and was not able to walk Laura through.

00:02:56.260 --> 00:03:01.780
 And so, I apologize for the past five minutes because that was not good.

00:03:02.280 --> 00:03:04.560
 But, Laura, thanks for jumping on here with us.

00:03:05.240 --> 00:03:06.160
 I'm so excited.

00:03:06.420 --> 00:03:08.420
 So excited to have this conversation with y'all.

00:03:09.200 --> 00:03:09.640
 Okay.

00:03:09.640 --> 00:03:19.480
 So, I was, what I was asking to you, this is the first time you've been on a stream or, like, you were not able with The Giving Tuesday.

00:03:19.740 --> 00:03:21.900
 And so, this is the first time you've, like, ever been on a stream with us, right?

00:03:22.780 --> 00:03:23.360
 It is.

00:03:23.580 --> 00:03:24.320
 It is, yeah.

00:03:24.340 --> 00:03:25.080
 I love this.

00:03:25.160 --> 00:03:31.480
 So, Laura Howe has made a huge impact with The Church Digital behind the scenes in the past month.

00:03:31.560 --> 00:03:33.500
 And her organization, Hope May Strong.

00:03:33.740 --> 00:03:36.820
 I'm really looking forward to this mental health conversation.

00:03:36.940 --> 00:03:38.620
 We're talking about being emotionally present.

00:03:38.880 --> 00:03:44.060
 And so, but, Laura, as we're kicking off here at the beginning, tell us a little bit about yourself.

00:03:44.200 --> 00:03:44.940
 Tell us your story.

00:03:45.040 --> 00:03:45.620
 Hope May Strong.

00:03:45.740 --> 00:03:46.460
 Take a couple minutes.

00:03:46.920 --> 00:03:48.720
 Give us some background on who you are.

00:03:49.680 --> 00:03:56.140
 Well, my name's Laura, and I hail from a small town in Canada.

00:03:56.520 --> 00:04:03.440
 So, you might hear my Canadian accent come out, and I'm going to start off by apologizing for that, because that's what we are known for.

00:04:03.560 --> 00:04:03.980
 No, I'm joking.

00:04:07.200 --> 00:04:08.260
 Canadian bacon.

00:04:09.180 --> 00:04:10.500
 Oh, bacon, right.

00:04:10.660 --> 00:04:11.140
 Yeah, there you go.

00:04:11.140 --> 00:04:12.280
 Maple syrup, bacon.

00:04:12.280 --> 00:04:13.360
 Maple syrup, yeah, yeah.

00:04:13.500 --> 00:04:14.400
 Yeah, yeah.

00:04:15.540 --> 00:04:18.560
 And my background is a mental health social worker.

00:04:18.840 --> 00:04:29.100
 So, spent 15 years in crisis, addictions, housing, case management, and counseling all around mental health and supporting those in my local community.

00:04:29.900 --> 00:04:35.280
 And then switched over to saying, oh, my goodness, the church can do better.

00:04:35.740 --> 00:04:38.800
 The church needs to do better in the space of mental health.

00:04:38.800 --> 00:04:50.600
 And so, started building content and resources and connecting with like-minded people who are just stepping up and saying, we need to train and equip the church to do better in the conversation around mental health.

00:04:50.720 --> 00:04:56.400
 So, started Hope Made Strong with the support and guidance of a dear friend.

00:04:56.520 --> 00:05:03.240
 I think she is a familiar face or voice in the church digital space, Barbara Cardinero.

00:05:04.260 --> 00:05:21.020
 And since then, launched the Church Mental Health Summit, which is a digital event that reaches the world with the best practices, tools, and resources, all focused on equipping the local church, ministry leaders, and those who care in their churches.

00:05:21.700 --> 00:05:31.520
 So, honored to be here, honored to connect and be of service and support and wade through some difficult questions and have conversations.

00:05:32.120 --> 00:05:32.940
 No, I love that.

00:05:32.980 --> 00:05:34.220
 It's going to be a good conversation.

00:05:34.560 --> 00:05:44.520
 You know, up front, one of the areas that we really wanted to focus on with the Church Digital this year has been mental health.

00:05:44.520 --> 00:05:51.840
 And, you know, some of the addictive – I mean, we operate, we do ministry in potentially addictive spaces.

00:05:52.360 --> 00:05:54.980
 And, you know, I just – I say this over and over again.

00:05:55.040 --> 00:05:57.000
 What does the armor of God look like digitally?

00:05:57.140 --> 00:05:58.980
 What does the armor of God look like in the metaverse?

00:05:59.100 --> 00:06:02.040
 What's the breastplate of righteousness, the shield of faith?

00:06:02.520 --> 00:06:05.720
 You know, I can never remember what the foot thing is, the sandals.

00:06:05.980 --> 00:06:08.520
 But, you know, how do we –

00:06:08.860 --> 00:06:09.700
 Truth, thank you.

00:06:09.860 --> 00:06:10.680
 No, sort of truth.

00:06:10.800 --> 00:06:11.420
 Sort of truth.

00:06:11.560 --> 00:06:11.820
 Yeah, no.

00:06:11.820 --> 00:06:12.640
 Sort of truth, yeah.

00:06:13.100 --> 00:06:14.080
 Maybe it's peace or something.

00:06:14.080 --> 00:06:15.180
 I – forgive me.

00:06:15.260 --> 00:06:18.360
 I'm not as good with the – and I need to spend more time on it.

00:06:18.960 --> 00:06:23.320
 But, you know, how do we – how do we utilize those tools digitally?

00:06:24.060 --> 00:06:27.580
 I mean, I can just roll off stats, but – and it was funny.

00:06:27.680 --> 00:06:33.600
 Even in the conversation today, I don't know if you heard, but the reason I'm late with all this was we were –

00:06:33.600 --> 00:06:41.420
 Leighton and I were talking to a seminary, Nazarene Seminary, Nazarene Theological Seminary, like 14, 15 students.

00:06:42.160 --> 00:06:47.240
 And, you know, one of the questions they said is, well, what is – how do you handle addictive situations?

00:06:47.240 --> 00:06:51.020
 Like, is there an opportunity for addictive to engage?

00:06:51.760 --> 00:07:04.360
 And, you know, that has been an area that we really wanted to focus on with the ministry and working behind the scenes right now with several different ministries on how to handle that situation.

00:07:04.900 --> 00:07:08.120
 You know, this is not what I want to talk about today, but I just want to say this.

00:07:08.860 --> 00:07:11.200
 You know, Barna came out with some stats a while back.

00:07:11.540 --> 00:07:13.380
 61% of Americans are addicted to porn.

00:07:13.460 --> 00:07:14.740
 30% are doing it in private.

00:07:15.500 --> 00:07:16.960
 There's no reason to thank the stats.

00:07:17.040 --> 00:07:20.260
 And that was – I'm sure those stats reported are actually worse than it is.

00:07:20.640 --> 00:07:23.380
 And if they're doing it in private, by the way, that means they know it's wrong.

00:07:24.000 --> 00:07:30.240
 And so how do they – how do we address the fact that they know that it's wrong and there's an opportunity to correct that?

00:07:32.440 --> 00:07:38.780
 And so it's – one of the things that we're really wrestling with is how to address that.

00:07:39.420 --> 00:07:45.000
 And so I went to a nationally recognized counseling center that does online counseling.

00:07:45.300 --> 00:07:47.780
 And I was like, hey, how do we solve this problem?

00:07:48.680 --> 00:07:56.280
 And this counselor, the CEO of this organization, told me, well, Jeff, we can really handle six more people.

00:07:57.440 --> 00:08:09.040
 Like 61% of America is addicted to porn and the sex addiction organization, nationally recognized, can only handle six more people before they're at max capacity, like one guy and five women.

00:08:09.620 --> 00:08:11.220
 And I was like, well, can you give our counselors?

00:08:11.360 --> 00:08:13.200
 And he's like, we can't do it.

00:08:13.220 --> 00:08:13.940
 There's no more.

00:08:14.320 --> 00:08:19.100
 And so, like, we're really starting to wrestle with, okay, how do we scale this?

00:08:19.640 --> 00:08:23.020
 How do we get this down to a lower level, the more manageable?

00:08:24.500 --> 00:08:30.840
 Where even individuals, even normies, even missionaries can start to address and treat that.

00:08:31.100 --> 00:08:33.440
 Triage – triage is a bad word.

00:08:33.480 --> 00:08:34.380
 I saw – I apologize.

00:08:34.560 --> 00:08:35.760
 I'm not allowed to say triage anymore.

00:08:35.880 --> 00:08:38.540
 Laura's told me that and really get into that.

00:08:38.540 --> 00:08:51.160
 But what Laura has done, and Stacey Knapp as well, who's the chaplain for the Church Digital, has really started to open my eyes on how to address some of these issues.

00:08:51.560 --> 00:08:56.840
 And you're going to see some major things rolling out of the Church Digital very soon.

00:08:57.360 --> 00:09:00.020
 And Laura's influence with Hope Made Strong.

00:09:01.020 --> 00:09:02.080
 And it was funny.

00:09:02.200 --> 00:09:07.400
 We were endorsing the Mental Health Summit without even knowing Laura.

00:09:07.840 --> 00:09:11.520
 Like, you know, I knew people that were speaking at it, and we were pushing people that way.

00:09:11.660 --> 00:09:13.860
 And then, you know, I met Laura one day, and she's through Barbara.

00:09:14.000 --> 00:09:14.640
 And she's like, oh, yeah.

00:09:15.120 --> 00:09:16.520
 Yeah, I do the conference.

00:09:16.600 --> 00:09:17.420
 I was like, oh, my gosh.

00:09:17.420 --> 00:09:17.920
 That's awesome.

00:09:17.940 --> 00:09:18.560
 I love the summit.

00:09:18.740 --> 00:09:19.760
 Yeah, it was really cool.

00:09:20.240 --> 00:09:25.640
 So it's been great to have her on board and kind of helping us process some of the Mental Health stuff.

00:09:25.880 --> 00:09:30.620
 And Stacey, you know, is a valid – as chaplain for TCD, oh, my gosh.

00:09:30.740 --> 00:09:33.280
 The two of them together are coming up with some great stuff.

00:09:33.620 --> 00:09:34.860
 So stay tuned.

00:09:35.420 --> 00:09:36.120
 That'll be great.

00:09:36.460 --> 00:09:44.580
 Hey, let's – what we want to talk about, Laura, is being emotionally available digitally.

00:09:44.580 --> 00:09:46.780
 What it looks like to be emotionally available.

00:09:47.180 --> 00:09:50.160
 And so let's kind of open the conversation here.

00:09:50.220 --> 00:09:51.260
 We're talking about questions.

00:09:51.460 --> 00:09:52.920
 What does it mean to be emotionally available?

00:09:53.040 --> 00:09:55.620
 How can we be emotionally available digitally?

00:09:56.580 --> 00:09:59.120
 Maybe let's even tip the hat here a little bit at the beginning.

00:09:59.980 --> 00:10:03.040
 What does it mean when we're asking to be emotionally available?

00:10:03.200 --> 00:10:04.400
 Like, not even in digital space.

00:10:04.520 --> 00:10:07.660
 What does that – what does emotionally available look like?

00:10:07.720 --> 00:10:08.920
 What are we trying to dig into?

00:10:10.600 --> 00:10:17.220
 I think that's a – it's a – language you're using, emotionally available, has a lot of assumptions to it, right?

00:10:17.220 --> 00:10:21.660
 Because emotions for one person is going to be different for – I know it's emotions.

00:10:21.660 --> 00:10:25.900
 You think happy, sad, angry, you know, hungry.

00:10:26.060 --> 00:10:26.760
 Is hungry an emotion?

00:10:26.880 --> 00:10:27.120
 I don't know.

00:10:27.180 --> 00:10:28.200
 I think it is disgust.

00:10:28.200 --> 00:10:35.740
 These are emotions, but to be emotionally available is – I think there's – might not understand what that means.

00:10:35.960 --> 00:10:41.600
 And I come to the table saying emotionally available is being willing to go beyond the surface.

00:10:42.240 --> 00:10:46.560
 We do a training called the Attune Listener that teaches deep listening skills.

00:10:47.000 --> 00:10:49.600
 And the acronym that we use is Oceans.

00:10:49.600 --> 00:10:51.860
 It's actually developed by Dr. Jackie Perry.

00:10:52.840 --> 00:11:00.020
 And it is – picturing yourself that someone's diving into the deep end of a pool or off the end of a boat.

00:11:00.960 --> 00:11:06.280
 Being emotionally available is willing to dive in deep rather than just staying on the surface.

00:11:06.280 --> 00:11:15.040
 It's willing to have the patience to listen to the responses rather than just jump onto the next task or the next to-do list.

00:11:15.200 --> 00:11:22.500
 And so being emotionally available is willing to hold space or be hospitable in the space.

00:11:22.500 --> 00:11:33.980
 And I don't mean the physical space, but I mean the moment that you have with that other person so that they can express something that has deeper meaning and deeper impact in their life.

00:11:34.720 --> 00:11:34.800
 Yeah.

00:11:35.200 --> 00:11:37.320
 That is – and this is interesting.

00:11:37.480 --> 00:11:43.580
 I don't know – you know, I'm not a mental health-oriented person.

00:11:44.120 --> 00:11:54.340
 But the idea of being emotionally available, as you just described it, that's been, I think, one of the challenges for a lot of people that are doing digital ministry.

00:11:54.340 --> 00:11:58.520
 Where, you know, I've seen – it's very easy to hide behind content.

00:11:58.520 --> 00:12:01.640
 You know, churches are broadcasting that online service.

00:12:01.640 --> 00:12:09.180
 And the goal is to try to drive people into the building or try to drive people into a small group or something like that.

00:12:09.820 --> 00:12:17.120
 And, you know, a lot of times the content, the connections that we have up at that top level are superficial.

00:12:17.120 --> 00:12:29.220
 And it feels like we need to be more emotionally available to connect with people, to establish that trust, to build them down into the community.

00:12:29.220 --> 00:12:39.440
 What does – like, how do we start to take steps towards being more emotionally available, towards connecting with people?

00:12:39.880 --> 00:12:41.560
 Like, not even at a digital level.

00:12:41.660 --> 00:12:43.300
 Like, even just let's talk superficial physically.

00:12:43.600 --> 00:12:43.740
 Yeah.

00:12:43.860 --> 00:12:45.180
 Like, I meet you.

00:12:45.540 --> 00:12:48.640
 What does it look like to be emotionally available?

00:12:48.760 --> 00:12:51.040
 I don't want to be like, hey, tell me your deepest, darkest secrets.

00:12:51.200 --> 00:12:53.140
 What – you know, like, how do we transition?

00:12:53.140 --> 00:12:53.980
 Oh, we can't do that.

00:12:54.100 --> 00:12:54.880
 That's just creepy.

00:12:55.560 --> 00:12:55.660
 Yeah.

00:12:56.120 --> 00:12:57.240
 We don't want to be that creeper.

00:12:57.240 --> 00:12:57.920
 Hey, so we got this group together.

00:12:58.000 --> 00:12:59.540
 We're two in a chair, our deepest, darkest sins.

00:12:59.600 --> 00:13:00.600
 Why don't you go first?

00:13:00.960 --> 00:13:01.240
 Yeah.

00:13:01.420 --> 00:13:02.900
 It's probably not the right way to do that.

00:13:02.900 --> 00:13:04.080
 But how do we do this?

00:13:04.440 --> 00:13:04.760
 Yeah.

00:13:04.820 --> 00:13:06.240
 Well, just think of it as a party.

00:13:06.240 --> 00:13:08.880
 What would you do in hospitality and every day?

00:13:09.120 --> 00:13:13.200
 Let's just normalize the awkwardness of human interaction, right?

00:13:13.260 --> 00:13:13.940
 It is awkward.

00:13:14.060 --> 00:13:15.080
 It's a little weird.

00:13:15.260 --> 00:13:22.000
 And so we want to be able to host someone in a friendly way.

00:13:22.080 --> 00:13:28.480
 We want to set them up so they feel safe, that they feel welcomed, that they feel valued,

00:13:28.480 --> 00:13:30.940
 that they're there, and that they have something to say.

00:13:31.020 --> 00:13:35.020
 And you would do that if you were hosting a party at your house or maybe an event.

00:13:35.140 --> 00:13:40.660
 You would create an environment so that person feels welcomed and that they feel safe.

00:13:41.120 --> 00:13:46.260
 And I think we want to – and that would be what you would want to do with another – a

00:13:46.260 --> 00:13:48.620
 friend or a colleague or someone that you just met.

00:13:48.660 --> 00:13:50.820
 You would want them to feel at ease.

00:13:51.420 --> 00:13:56.240
 You know, we would want them to feel that they are important, that you are honored to meet

00:13:56.240 --> 00:14:01.560
 them and that they have something important to say and that they are the focus in that

00:14:01.560 --> 00:14:01.960
 moment.

00:14:02.180 --> 00:14:06.700
 They are not just a task or a responsibility that they have to check off the list and move

00:14:06.700 --> 00:14:07.560
 to something else.

00:14:08.060 --> 00:14:11.940
 And so, you know, human interaction, there's awkward moments.

00:14:11.940 --> 00:14:17.300
 And, you know, we often in person play on that, you know, when someone's like trying to shake

00:14:17.300 --> 00:14:20.940
 the hand or you hug and you do that little dance, you're not quite sure what to do.

00:14:21.000 --> 00:14:21.720
 You laugh about it.

00:14:21.760 --> 00:14:22.940
 There's that icebreaker, right?

00:14:22.980 --> 00:14:28.020
 So let's, you know, we want to be able to create moments like that digitally or even in

00:14:28.020 --> 00:14:31.900
 person so that people feel safe and welcome.

00:14:32.420 --> 00:14:33.520
 Yeah, I love that.

00:14:33.520 --> 00:14:40.080
 Creating a safe, welcome environment, hospitable, asking, you know, and for us digitally, we

00:14:40.080 --> 00:14:45.220
 really lean towards asking questions more than making statements.

00:14:45.780 --> 00:14:50.280
 You know, it's not – and this is some of the challenge away from the physical church

00:14:50.280 --> 00:14:57.860
 mindset where physical church is using digital as a way to tell you what to think, but as

00:14:57.860 --> 00:15:02.980
 a digital missionary, it's not soapbox, it's relationship.

00:15:03.920 --> 00:15:08.420
 By the way, you know, interesting, we've got Stacey in the thread on the stream here.

00:15:08.500 --> 00:15:12.860
 Laura is a gift at TCD and me personally, and so she's the chaplain of TCD.

00:15:13.040 --> 00:15:17.740
 We've got L. Michelle, one of the coolest people I've ever met, L. Michelle on the stream

00:15:17.740 --> 00:15:23.220
 as well, L. Michelle is coming on board with TCD to really – I don't know, we've got

00:15:23.220 --> 00:15:26.380
 to figure out the terms, but almost like chaplain to the metaverse in virtual reality.

00:15:26.900 --> 00:15:27.180
 Amazing.

00:15:27.180 --> 00:15:28.760
 And so we're working with L. Michelle.

00:15:28.960 --> 00:15:31.780
 She's going to be at our digital missionary conference.

00:15:32.480 --> 00:15:37.720
 She's doing a thing on active listening in virtual reality.

00:15:38.060 --> 00:15:39.600
 And so I'm really excited.

00:15:40.220 --> 00:15:42.940
 Hope May Strong, you've got – is it Rebecca?

00:15:43.400 --> 00:15:47.720
 Rebecca's going to do a couple breakouts in the broadcast side.

00:15:47.740 --> 00:15:51.580
 And so, like I said, we're investing heavy in the mental health.

00:15:51.740 --> 00:15:59.540
 Actually, we were – Leighton and I were working with a church lately, and that's not part

00:15:59.540 --> 00:16:03.820
 of our network, but we were providing some leadership and tangible resources for them.

00:16:04.540 --> 00:16:11.280
 And one of the pastors remarked that they couldn't believe how concerned and focused we were on

00:16:11.280 --> 00:16:14.300
 on the mental health aspects, and this church was fried.

00:16:14.960 --> 00:16:19.420
 And so the importance to kind of restore them and feel that – it's a good feeling to kind

00:16:19.420 --> 00:16:20.360
 of get in that spot.

00:16:20.840 --> 00:16:24.480
 So, hey, listen, you – we're listening, right?

00:16:24.880 --> 00:16:30.480
 I mean, that's the whole bless, you know, begin with prayer, listen, is what we want to do.

00:16:30.480 --> 00:16:37.060
 And by listening, we start to make ourselves be emotionally available, because by listening,

00:16:37.320 --> 00:16:40.580
 they're establishing trust with us, right?

00:16:40.720 --> 00:16:41.940
 Is that what we're saying here?

00:16:42.800 --> 00:16:46.380
 Yeah, I think that's definitely one way to establish trust is by listening.

00:16:46.600 --> 00:16:54.320
 Another is to, you know, you say you want to ask questions, and rather than, you know, asking

00:16:54.320 --> 00:17:00.960
 curious questions, is – you're not asking questions like you're grilling someone or you're

00:17:00.960 --> 00:17:02.000
 interrogating someone.

00:17:02.000 --> 00:17:04.320
 You're asking questions to get to know them more.

00:17:04.320 --> 00:17:07.820
 And if they say something, say, hey, last week I was out doing this.

00:17:07.940 --> 00:17:09.920
 Oh, I never knew you were into that.

00:17:10.000 --> 00:17:15.160
 When did you get into – like, feel free to go through those rabbit trails, because they

00:17:15.160 --> 00:17:19.940
 usually lead to some sort of personal connection, which is that emotional connection.

00:17:19.940 --> 00:17:24.820
 And so, that's – definitely want to be able to listen and ask curious questions.

00:17:25.240 --> 00:17:28.440
 And I think questions are so important.

00:17:30.040 --> 00:17:38.500
 When we talk about active listening in face-to-face contact, we actually avoid asking questions.

00:17:38.620 --> 00:17:43.940
 And so, because we're so reliant on the physical features.

00:17:43.940 --> 00:17:49.560
 We're – body language, tone, how someone stands or where their eyes go.

00:17:50.100 --> 00:17:52.660
 And we lose all of that in the digital space.

00:17:52.980 --> 00:17:59.660
 And so, how can we – how can we cross that barrier and – and interpret what someone's

00:17:59.660 --> 00:18:02.060
 saying without being present?

00:18:02.120 --> 00:18:07.940
 And so, I think learning how to ask good, curious questions is – is really important.

00:18:08.120 --> 00:18:16.280
 But also, I would say that secondary to reflective answers, questions – you know, if – if someone

00:18:16.280 --> 00:18:21.000
 walks in and you're – if you walk into a party and someone's drilling you with questions, it

00:18:21.000 --> 00:18:23.360
 would feel quite intimidating.

00:18:23.840 --> 00:18:27.740
 You want to be reflective in your answers and make observations.

00:18:27.740 --> 00:18:35.360
 Whether – maybe it's their handle or maybe it's their profile picture or maybe it's how did you get onto this platform or what do you think of – you know.

00:18:35.360 --> 00:18:41.620
 So, it's reflective in how they show up more than interrogative, if that makes sense.

00:18:41.620 --> 00:18:45.880
 That's reflective, open, instead of interrogative.

00:18:45.960 --> 00:18:46.040
 Yeah.

00:18:46.160 --> 00:18:48.600
 El-Michelle said questions, not questioning.

00:18:49.460 --> 00:18:49.880
 Yeah, yeah.

00:18:49.880 --> 00:18:50.460
 That's true, Michelle.

00:18:51.100 --> 00:18:59.400
 You know, posture, humility, listening, learning, reflective answers is that.

00:18:59.400 --> 00:19:07.720
 So, how do we overcome – because you said digitally, like, we don't have the physical interactions or, you know, it's off camera.

00:19:08.620 --> 00:19:11.800
 Or, you know, in virtual reality, you're looking at an avatar.

00:19:12.000 --> 00:19:17.800
 You're looking at – how do we – how do we dig into this?

00:19:17.920 --> 00:19:22.980
 And maybe – is there a way to learn from it, to pick it up in other ways?

00:19:22.980 --> 00:19:29.340
 Is there a way to – is there a strength to digital that maybe isn't available in physical?

00:19:29.840 --> 00:19:33.160
 Like, what's your opinion and experience with digitals?

00:19:35.060 --> 00:19:46.720
 Well, I think El-Michelle and Stacey would be more of the experts in this area because they have a longer experience in the digital space in supporting people.

00:19:47.020 --> 00:19:50.920
 So, you know, I'm not going to pretend I'm the subject matter expert in that.

00:19:51.640 --> 00:20:06.580
 However, I think the benefit of being digital is when you are in person, it's easy to hide behind those social cues of the ums and ahs and not really say anything.

00:20:07.660 --> 00:20:20.080
 And so, it stays surface because the lack of words, but on the digital you're required to use words and so you have an opportunity to go deeper, faster, because you're required to say words.

00:20:20.080 --> 00:20:24.280
 You have – in order to engage with that person, you are actually having dialogue.

00:20:24.280 --> 00:20:42.900
 And so, I think there's definitely opportunity in that and paying attention to the details or – and maybe even what someone is not saying versus what they are saying and just being really aware and curious.

00:20:42.900 --> 00:20:46.640
 I think my favorite word is just being curious.

00:20:46.640 --> 00:20:54.800
 Pretend you're like an eight-year-old or a five-year-old kid and wanting to know about that individual.

00:20:54.800 --> 00:20:55.560
 That's good.

00:20:55.920 --> 00:21:04.940
 We found in virtual reality that people are actually – hiding behind the avatar actually allows for a lot more open conversations.

00:21:05.480 --> 00:21:05.580
 Yeah.

00:21:06.120 --> 00:21:13.740
 You know, we actually – in my experience, like, you don't even – asking somebody's name is like the worst thing you can do.

00:21:14.160 --> 00:21:18.400
 Asking where they live, like, it just – it doesn't – it doesn't happen.

00:21:18.400 --> 00:21:21.340
 And by, you know, she's like – Michelle's like deeper and faster.

00:21:21.480 --> 00:21:29.900
 Like, the more that you're able to hide behind that avatar and have that conversation with the avatar, you actually get very deep very fast.

00:21:30.400 --> 00:21:39.780
 And even in digital context, people seem to be open because – I mean, there's a camera lens right there.

00:21:40.060 --> 00:21:46.160
 I can be open and honest with you and you're – I mean, you're literally on Canada.

00:21:46.720 --> 00:21:49.980
 You're practically on the other side of the planet from where I am in Miami, Florida.

00:21:50.440 --> 00:21:54.740
 Like, there's – you can't judge me behind this.

00:21:55.000 --> 00:21:58.140
 And so there's oftentimes – there's freedom to be more expressive.

00:21:58.460 --> 00:22:00.320
 Now, some people lean towards that.

00:22:00.720 --> 00:22:01.860
 And to be honest, some don't.

00:22:02.480 --> 00:22:04.200
 Some would – actually, it was interesting.

00:22:04.400 --> 00:22:14.000
 With the seminary class I was in, there was actually a point where the guy was like, well, is digital – I think digital is better than physical – or physical is better than digital in relationships.

00:22:14.240 --> 00:22:15.260
 Like, how would he think of that?

00:22:15.880 --> 00:22:22.520
 And I got – I got a little upset just because I kind of – that's my pain point, just to be honest.

00:22:22.680 --> 00:22:25.360
 Like, that's like the thing that makes the hair on my neck stand up when people say that.

00:22:25.920 --> 00:22:29.360
 And so, you know, I got the little chip and kind of went off on him a little bit.

00:22:29.400 --> 00:22:29.880
 I felt bad.

00:22:29.940 --> 00:22:30.840
 I apologize again.

00:22:30.900 --> 00:22:32.600
 Apples and oranges, two different things.

00:22:32.720 --> 00:22:34.200
 Yeah, but it's exactly right.

00:22:34.260 --> 00:22:38.120
 There are people that will connect in the physical building and there are people that will connect digitally.

00:22:38.120 --> 00:22:42.420
 And that's the thing, is that, you know, we're not trying to change people's minds.

00:22:42.940 --> 00:22:46.200
 We're trying to do ministry with the people that are receptive to that.

00:22:46.440 --> 00:22:48.020
 And so, lean into that.

00:22:49.500 --> 00:22:55.760
 You know, it's – Elmichelle says the anonymity leads towards more transparency.

00:22:56.520 --> 00:22:57.300
 That's good.

00:22:57.300 --> 00:23:03.620
 And so, to be able to feed on that and work that relationship.

00:23:03.840 --> 00:23:04.380
 It's interesting.

00:23:04.480 --> 00:23:07.700
 With Bless, it's begin with prayer.

00:23:07.980 --> 00:23:10.300
 This is our digital version of it.

00:23:10.380 --> 00:23:13.260
 Sharing Jesus Online, the book, sharingjesusonline.com.

00:23:13.320 --> 00:23:14.960
 Dr. John and I wrote it together.

00:23:15.780 --> 00:23:30.280
 Begin with prayer, listen, eat together is physical, but shared experiences, digital, virtual shared experiences, get to know them, the person, serve the person, and then share your Jesus story is the last thing.

00:23:31.060 --> 00:23:41.780
 And so, you know, to be able to be emotionally available, to be listening through the top four, begin with prayer, listen, shared experiences, serve.

00:23:41.780 --> 00:23:48.880
 Like, all that feeds into the gospel presentation as opposed to, you know, hitting somebody over the head.

00:23:49.140 --> 00:23:49.760
 It was interesting.

00:23:49.920 --> 00:23:56.320
 Actually, this morning, I got a DM early or maybe it was late last night or somebody said something.

00:23:56.840 --> 00:24:04.900
 One of the guys that's in EDM, he works for a seminary and I think he's a seminary student.

00:24:05.540 --> 00:24:11.560
 He was playing Population One, it's a video game in virtual reality where you go around, like, shooting people.

00:24:11.860 --> 00:24:12.900
 It's community-based.

00:24:13.540 --> 00:24:17.440
 And so they were playing this game in virtual reality, going around shooting people.

00:24:17.560 --> 00:24:22.500
 And so it was him, he's a Christian, and then there was this other guy who was a Christian as well.

00:24:23.140 --> 00:24:26.700
 And they were talking, and then there was other people on the team who weren't Christians.

00:24:27.540 --> 00:24:32.620
 And they were, the two of them were, like, very, were playing the game where others could hear him.

00:24:33.320 --> 00:24:40.800
 But they were talking about God and church and ministry and kind of some of the behind-the-scenes stuff and some of the, you know, frustrations, good and bad with the work.

00:24:41.400 --> 00:24:50.760
 And one of the guys that was on the team who was not a Christian was, like, shut the up and this is not, and, you know, I don't want to hear about God.

00:24:50.920 --> 00:25:02.440
 And really, like, it was the not being sensitive to where he was actually, like, turned him off and pushed him away accidentally.

00:25:02.980 --> 00:25:05.840
 Like, the two of them didn't recognize the potential.

00:25:06.100 --> 00:25:08.940
 And it's, like, maybe to be more sensitive towards that.

00:25:10.580 --> 00:25:16.680
 How do we, how do we, as people, and I'm a type A guy, I'm a jerk.

00:25:16.980 --> 00:25:18.520
 Like, I just admit that publicly.

00:25:19.240 --> 00:25:25.960
 How do I start to think more, like, being emotionally available, to be more sensitive to the people around me?

00:25:26.040 --> 00:25:31.260
 Like, what's the, is there a cue, is there a trick, is there, like, a mind thing?

00:25:31.260 --> 00:25:36.500
 How do I flip the switch to be able to kind of change some of my psyche?

00:25:36.720 --> 00:25:37.260
 What do you recommend?

00:25:38.160 --> 00:25:43.560
 Well, I don't know if this is textbook, but I think empathy comes from suffering.

00:25:44.200 --> 00:25:49.220
 So I think the more you live, the more suffering you're exposed to, the more empathy grows in you.

00:25:49.860 --> 00:25:53.480
 And so, now I don't, yeah.

00:25:54.440 --> 00:25:59.760
 There's probably able to people to prove me wrong on that, but I think there's definitely a correlation to someone's experience.

00:25:59.760 --> 00:26:00.580
 Say that again.

00:26:00.580 --> 00:26:01.520
 No, empathy.

00:26:02.520 --> 00:26:02.880
 Empathy.

00:26:03.680 --> 00:26:06.620
 Empathy grows from the, from experience suffering.

00:26:06.900 --> 00:26:08.020
 From experience suffering.

00:26:08.420 --> 00:26:08.560
 Yeah.

00:26:08.560 --> 00:26:08.580
 Yeah.

00:26:08.760 --> 00:26:19.820
 So the more that, the more that you're broken, the more that you're humble, the more that you're able to be reshaped is how you become more emotionally available.

00:26:19.820 --> 00:26:30.260
 You see, you see it in others, you see the signs, it becomes familiar, becomes when you've experienced it yourself, it becomes so close to you that you begin to see it in others.

00:26:30.260 --> 00:26:44.140
 So if you've been hurt or bullied or, you know, grief or any of the number of suffering that people can experience when you've experienced that you can quickly pick up on when other people experience that.

00:26:44.140 --> 00:26:53.140
 And empathy is wanting to meet the person where they're at and extend compassion in a way that we wish we've received.

00:26:53.140 --> 00:27:00.360
 We, we can feel, we know what it feels like and we can put ourselves in our, in, in ourselves in their shoes.

00:27:00.360 --> 00:27:20.460
 And so, um, you know, I think it's, if you want to become more of an empathetic person, then I think you need to put yourself into spaces and be vulnerable and, and re take risks and, and you will quickly learn empathy by, by feeling by bad exposure.

00:27:20.880 --> 00:27:26.460
 But I think there are ways to show up when you just don't know what to say.

00:27:26.460 --> 00:27:30.060
 If that doesn't come naturally, there are, you know, I, I walked through.

00:27:30.060 --> 00:27:31.440
 You have a BLESS acronym.

00:27:31.440 --> 00:27:35.600
 I don't have a special acronym, but I definitely have some steps that I would recommend.

00:27:35.600 --> 00:27:41.040
 If you don't know what to say, you know, here's how you can show up to help create that space.

00:27:41.560 --> 00:27:47.860
 Um, but I definitely think if you want to become more empathetic, then you need to, um, put yourself out there.

00:27:48.280 --> 00:27:48.660
 Yeah.

00:27:48.680 --> 00:27:50.820
 Oh, by the way, I'm, I'm the acronym King.

00:27:50.880 --> 00:27:56.040
 And so if you ever need any acronym, I will, I will figure that out.

00:27:56.040 --> 00:27:59.880
 I, I love me an acronym, but, um, you know,

00:27:59.880 --> 00:28:05.980
 there, there's a little bit, we talk about if we're going to shine in the light in the darkness, we need to be prepared.

00:28:05.980 --> 00:28:08.160
 And, and this is a personal testimony for my life.

00:28:08.220 --> 00:28:12.580
 If we're going to shine light in the darkness, we need to be prepared to shine that light on ourselves.

00:28:13.260 --> 00:28:30.440
 And, um, you know, being, um, you know, being, being broken in some of this has been at a personal level for me, it's been very hard, but I do think that that brokenness has allowed me to be more empathetic and has allowed me a different view and a different passion.

00:28:30.980 --> 00:28:42.900
 Um, which is, you know, um, which is, you know, one of the reasons why we're, we're leaning so hard into the addictive space, you know, and, and, and realizing a, um, we're doing ministry in addictive space.

00:28:43.160 --> 00:28:47.980
 B, we're inviting others to do ministry in an addictive space.

00:28:47.980 --> 00:28:50.880
 And C, we're working with people.

00:28:50.880 --> 00:28:52.900
 We're doing ministry to people.

00:28:52.900 --> 00:28:57.360
 We're reaching out to people that are addicted, uh, to, to things.

00:28:57.360 --> 00:28:59.020
 And so we need to care for ourselves.

00:28:59.020 --> 00:29:04.820
 We need to care for the people that are, are ministering with us and the people we're ministering to.

00:29:04.980 --> 00:29:11.180
 And so being able to be, being able to be broken in that, I think is important.

00:29:11.740 --> 00:29:12.520
 It's, it's funny.

00:29:12.520 --> 00:29:19.900
 I, um, I, I, I tell this, I told, I wrote this story.

00:29:20.000 --> 00:29:24.840
 I'm not going to tell the story, but it often, the, the, the story led to this point.

00:29:24.840 --> 00:29:34.520
 I'll just get to the point where sometimes it, like my experience that in doing as a digital pastor for a physical church, I felt very clean.

00:29:35.980 --> 00:29:42.820
 Like, you know, I was, I was not connecting with people, you know, it was just very kind of shallow relationships.

00:29:42.820 --> 00:29:46.160
 And, and I was, I was working people through the system.

00:29:46.400 --> 00:29:48.140
 Let me get them connected into a group.

00:29:48.260 --> 00:30:04.960
 Let me, you know, I'll, I'll connect with them at a superficial level, but I really didn't know the people I was ministering to confession, um, doing digital ministry emotionally available, um, missions work relationships.

00:30:04.980 --> 00:30:26.660
 As opposed to the, the, the, the other model, um, if it has been far more challenging and like, to me, it almost feels like, um, like, you know, jumping in the mud with people just to kind of a little bit where I'm, I'm being more, um, real with people in that, in that lens, in that scope.

00:30:26.660 --> 00:30:29.740
 And that was, that was uncomfortable for me for a while.

00:30:30.000 --> 00:30:30.740
 Like, I'll be honest.

00:30:30.920 --> 00:30:33.400
 Like that was, how, how, how much is too much?

00:30:33.480 --> 00:30:35.360
 Do I, how do I protect myself?

00:30:35.520 --> 00:30:40.020
 How do I, you know, there was a little bit of, honestly, there was a little burnout in my life going back.

00:30:40.420 --> 00:30:46.940
 Um, how do we, how do we stop ourselves from being too emotionally available?

00:30:47.380 --> 00:30:52.060
 Is there, is, is there a, a, a, like a, a point that we don't go across?

00:30:52.060 --> 00:30:55.620
 Like what, where, how do we, how do we stop?

00:30:55.700 --> 00:30:56.380
 Should we stop?

00:30:56.440 --> 00:30:57.480
 What, how do we control?

00:30:57.600 --> 00:30:58.260
 How do we heal?

00:30:58.340 --> 00:30:59.120
 How do we restore?

00:30:59.360 --> 00:31:00.820
 Give me a little bit on that space.

00:31:02.200 --> 00:31:16.320
 Well, I think one of the, one of the things that I say in, um, it's actually the third point of, um, what to say when you don't know what to say is offer support that doesn't require the person to initiate.

00:31:17.060 --> 00:31:26.040
 So, you know, this is like jumping backwards from a different point, but the thing on that is, but it doesn't add burden to yourself.

00:31:26.280 --> 00:31:36.600
 So knowing what is within your capacity and knowing what is out of reach, um, for offering support to that person is really, really important.

00:31:36.860 --> 00:31:52.260
 So if you just a very, you know, simple example that I think is almost silly, but if you know, you have a family plans or you have, you know, a meeting to go to, you're not going to say, Hey, I'm going to give you a call at six o'clock.

00:31:52.260 --> 00:32:03.580
 No, that's when your family dinner is, but you can say, Hey, can I text you later on tonight, you know, or, Hey, do you want to touch back tomorrow at such and such time?

00:32:04.000 --> 00:32:07.680
 Then, you know, you're offering that you're extending the olive branch.

00:32:07.760 --> 00:32:11.880
 You're doing the work to extend the olive branch, but it's within the bound.

00:32:11.960 --> 00:32:17.520
 So I think the first thing is really just only offering what is within your capacity.

00:32:17.840 --> 00:32:20.620
 And the first step is knowing what's within your capacity.

00:32:20.620 --> 00:32:20.980
 Yeah.

00:32:21.540 --> 00:32:28.440
 Um, so I would say that would be the first thing is don't over reach or overextend when you're engaging with that person.

00:32:29.240 --> 00:32:29.680
 Yeah.

00:32:29.920 --> 00:32:31.660
 I, um, that's hard, right?

00:32:32.220 --> 00:32:33.520
 It's well, it's hard.

00:32:33.600 --> 00:32:41.600
 It's hard, but I think you learn your lesson pretty quick when you overreach and you're like, now I am, I am agitated.

00:32:41.840 --> 00:32:42.840
 I am resentful.

00:32:42.840 --> 00:32:43.740
 I am resentful.

00:32:43.740 --> 00:32:44.740
 I am overwhelmed.

00:32:44.740 --> 00:32:46.740
 I can't juggle it all.

00:32:46.740 --> 00:32:54.660
 And now I'm re I'm hoping that the person doesn't ask for more help because I've exhausted all of those things.

00:32:54.660 --> 00:32:58.940
 Um, all of my capacity, all of my time and energy has been used up.

00:32:58.940 --> 00:33:07.680
 And so you want to be able to have the slow, you know, only extend what is within your capacity so that you don't completely extinguish everything.

00:33:07.680 --> 00:33:13.120
 Can you hear me now?

00:33:13.120 --> 00:33:13.760
 It's funny.

00:33:13.760 --> 00:33:15.760
 I think I double clicked on the wrong thing.

00:33:15.760 --> 00:33:16.260
 You can hear me.

00:33:16.260 --> 00:33:16.680
 Okay, good.

00:33:16.680 --> 00:33:20.220
 I was, I was trying to mute my mic to cough and I think I messed that up.

00:33:20.220 --> 00:33:20.400
 Sorry.

00:33:21.120 --> 00:33:25.120
 Um, so how else do we protect ourselves?

00:33:25.160 --> 00:33:27.340
 How do we set boundaries up on this?

00:33:27.560 --> 00:33:28.960
 Uh, don't overextend.

00:33:29.060 --> 00:33:30.900
 Are there some other things we should consider?

00:33:32.660 --> 00:33:37.540
 Um, there's definitely things to consider.

00:33:38.020 --> 00:33:40.700
 Um, but how to maintain boundaries.

00:33:40.880 --> 00:33:42.060
 Is that what you're asking?

00:33:42.160 --> 00:33:43.100
 How to maintain boundaries?

00:33:43.380 --> 00:33:43.820
 Oh my goodness.

00:33:44.000 --> 00:33:47.200
 I did not bring those notes up, but I'm sorry.

00:33:47.660 --> 00:33:49.500
 Oh, you're having me off.

00:33:50.360 --> 00:33:50.920
 No, no.

00:33:50.960 --> 00:33:51.640
 We could talk about it.

00:33:51.640 --> 00:33:51.780
 We talk.

00:33:51.840 --> 00:33:52.780
 It's just casual, right?

00:33:53.300 --> 00:33:55.080
 This isn't a formal lesson.

00:33:55.080 --> 00:33:55.140
 Oh yeah.

00:33:55.220 --> 00:33:55.360
 Yeah.

00:33:55.400 --> 00:33:57.020
 We're two people sitting around a coffee shop.

00:33:57.140 --> 00:33:57.600
 You're great.

00:33:57.800 --> 00:33:58.020
 Yeah.

00:33:58.020 --> 00:33:58.220
 Yeah.

00:33:58.220 --> 00:33:58.420
 Yeah.

00:33:59.020 --> 00:34:07.580
 Um, you know, when I think of boundaries, it is, um, for me, I have, I have the red flags

00:34:07.580 --> 00:34:08.560
 and the yellow flags.

00:34:08.820 --> 00:34:10.500
 It takes a lot of self-reflection.

00:34:10.500 --> 00:34:16.560
 I'm going to be honest, having engaging in reflection is the, is, um, as an absolute

00:34:16.560 --> 00:34:22.680
 must skill for any caregiver, because if you're not reflective on how the caregiving is impacting

00:34:22.680 --> 00:34:28.200
 you and how your stuff is impacting you, you're going to spew it and slime it all over everyone.

00:34:28.820 --> 00:34:30.660
 And so I think you need to be really reflective.

00:34:30.660 --> 00:34:34.800
 And one of the things you can reflect on is what is the yellow flags and the red flags?

00:34:34.880 --> 00:34:36.060
 What are the warning sides?

00:34:36.060 --> 00:34:40.140
 And what is the, the, like, you need additional support.

00:34:40.200 --> 00:34:46.400
 You need to press pause and, um, of being the red flag for me, my yellow flag is when

00:34:46.400 --> 00:34:53.200
 I isolate, when I'm pulling away from activities that I normally would enjoy, like, um, book

00:34:53.200 --> 00:34:57.980
 club or playing volleyball or, um, you know, walking my dog.

00:34:57.980 --> 00:35:01.560
 Those are the things I say, Ooh, I'm not doing really great.

00:35:01.820 --> 00:35:05.120
 I need to keep an eye out of things on things.

00:35:05.120 --> 00:35:10.820
 And so just really recognizing and being reflective and knowing what the yellow flags are when you're,

00:35:10.820 --> 00:35:17.420
 when you're starting to go downhill and, and, um, by knowing those, you know, when to stop

00:35:17.420 --> 00:35:19.180
 and, and care for yourself.

00:35:19.180 --> 00:35:24.320
 And so, um, I think that's really important for boundaries is, and not overextending.

00:35:25.060 --> 00:35:30.820
 One of the hardest things for me, um, and, and I still don't know if this is good or bad.

00:35:30.980 --> 00:35:39.680
 Like, I, I want, I want to wrestle with this is, um, passing it on to someone else.

00:35:40.640 --> 00:35:41.120
 Yeah.

00:35:41.360 --> 00:35:43.780
 Like I, I, there I'm, I'm emotionally available.

00:35:43.920 --> 00:35:44.480
 I'm connecting.

00:35:44.600 --> 00:35:46.280
 This person's going through a hard thing.

00:35:46.660 --> 00:35:51.720
 It's taking more energy, more resources, more equipping, more knowledge.

00:35:51.720 --> 00:35:55.880
 Like the scope of this thing is probably beyond what, what I can really do.

00:35:56.660 --> 00:36:01.040
 But what I'm finding is that like, I, I don't know if it's ego.

00:36:01.040 --> 00:36:02.340
 I don't know if it's pride.

00:36:03.100 --> 00:36:05.720
 Uh, but like, I, I, I, I can solve it.

00:36:05.720 --> 00:36:06.320
 I can fix it.

00:36:06.320 --> 00:36:06.980
 I can handle it.

00:36:06.980 --> 00:36:07.620
 I can do it.

00:36:07.620 --> 00:36:10.140
 I don't, I don't want to, I don't want to pass it on.

00:36:10.580 --> 00:36:15.140
 Um, is, is it, is it healthy to, to pass it on?

00:36:15.140 --> 00:36:17.720
 Is it, is it, you know, it does it, does that break?

00:36:17.800 --> 00:36:22.440
 Do I need to be better in, in, in study harder to be able to handle these difficult situations?

00:36:23.060 --> 00:36:25.440
 Like, how, how, what do you recommend in that space?

00:36:26.180 --> 00:36:26.600
 Yeah.

00:36:26.820 --> 00:36:39.700
 Um, one of the signs of compassion fatigue or when you're, you're, you're becoming weary or burnt out as a result of the caregiving is an over-engagement in other people's stories and other people's issues and problems.

00:36:39.940 --> 00:36:57.660
 And, and it's like the number one thing it's, you skip lunch, you don't go on vacation, you miss activities, you think you are God's, God has sent you, you and only you to that person, um, that no other person can care for them quite like you can.

00:36:58.400 --> 00:37:07.120
 And, um, I'm not saying like it's in a delusional way where, you know, there's a psychotic, um, feature to that.

00:37:07.120 --> 00:37:14.520
 But more, more in that, that over, over response, you feel overly responsible for that person's life.

00:37:14.740 --> 00:37:18.800
 And, and that actually is a yellow flag when those thoughts come.

00:37:18.800 --> 00:37:23.540
 And when those feelings come, that's the yellow flag saying, Ooh, I think I've stepped, I'm, I'm too thick.

00:37:23.600 --> 00:37:24.720
 I'm too deep into it.

00:37:24.840 --> 00:37:26.100
 I need some perspective.

00:37:26.100 --> 00:37:34.720
 I need to gather people around and I don't mean refer as in send them away and say, I can no longer help you, but let's bring another person into the conversation.

00:37:34.720 --> 00:37:37.360
 Who can add a different perspective, right?

00:37:37.660 --> 00:37:42.340
 It's how we, no one wants the feeling rejected is the worst feeling ever.

00:37:42.340 --> 00:37:43.960
 No one wants to feel rejected.

00:37:44.200 --> 00:37:46.600
 And so, oh, your problems are too hard for me.

00:37:46.840 --> 00:37:51.360
 I'm going to send you away to a specialist because you're, you know, you're so broken.

00:37:51.720 --> 00:37:53.500
 That's a terrible feeling.

00:37:53.500 --> 00:37:54.760
 We never want to do that.

00:37:54.760 --> 00:37:59.940
 But what we can say is, Hey, I feel like I am this person in your life.

00:37:59.980 --> 00:38:06.200
 I feel like I am a friend or I am a fellow student or I'm a fellow parent or whatever.

00:38:06.640 --> 00:38:12.520
 I actually don't have a lot of experience in this other issue that you're, you know, struggling with, or that you've showed.

00:38:12.860 --> 00:38:18.200
 Do you mind if we bring, I connect you with someone else and you can maintain the relationship.

00:38:18.200 --> 00:38:21.800
 You can stay in someone's life, but you definitely bring in other voices.

00:38:21.800 --> 00:38:24.380
 There's scripture on that multitude of advisors.

00:38:24.740 --> 00:38:26.000
 Isn't there a proverb on that?

00:38:26.000 --> 00:38:29.440
 I'm not, I'm someone can put it in the chat, then know the reference to it.

00:38:29.440 --> 00:38:30.860
 But yeah, it's got it.

00:38:30.860 --> 00:38:31.760
 If he's around, I'm sure.

00:38:31.760 --> 00:38:32.260
 Yeah.

00:38:32.260 --> 00:38:32.260
 Yeah.

00:38:32.260 --> 00:38:35.900
 To a multiple, a multiple of, uh, advisors or something.

00:38:36.080 --> 00:38:36.440
 Yeah.

00:38:37.460 --> 00:38:41.420
 And it's, it's, it's healthy to bring more people in.

00:38:41.680 --> 00:38:46.840
 It's not healthy to gossip and just spread news around people, but to know what is within

00:38:46.840 --> 00:38:52.000
 your capacity, within your skillset, where your expertise lie, and then bring in the extra.

00:38:52.000 --> 00:38:52.360
 For sure.

00:38:52.620 --> 00:38:58.460
 The idea of bringing somebody in to the, to the relationship that's new to me.

00:38:58.880 --> 00:39:00.660
 I've never, I've, I've, I haven't done that.

00:39:01.000 --> 00:39:05.640
 I've always, I've always, I don't want to be always, but for the most part, if it's out

00:39:05.640 --> 00:39:09.400
 of my league, I hand it off to the, to somebody else and let that be the thing.

00:39:09.920 --> 00:39:11.800
 And so, um, it's interesting.

00:39:11.880 --> 00:39:17.340
 Ukulele comes in here saving the day without council plans fail, but with many advisors,

00:39:17.340 --> 00:39:18.320
 they succeed.

00:39:18.840 --> 00:39:20.760
 Thank you, pastor Google, ukulele.

00:39:20.840 --> 00:39:21.940
 Good, good find on that.

00:39:22.000 --> 00:39:27.520
 Uh, if you use Google or if you use a chat GPT, that would be interesting, but, uh, she nailed

00:39:27.520 --> 00:39:28.080
 that pretty quick.

00:39:28.420 --> 00:39:35.820
 Um, but the, the heart of this, I think really leans into, um, uh, knowing where your limits

00:39:35.820 --> 00:39:36.280
 are.

00:39:36.700 --> 00:39:36.940
 Yeah.

00:39:37.120 --> 00:39:41.720
 Um, you know, being invested, know where your limits are, and then invite others into the

00:39:41.720 --> 00:39:43.180
 conversation with that.

00:39:43.820 --> 00:39:47.880
 Um, you know, I would say one of the things that we want to do with the church digital is

00:39:47.880 --> 00:39:55.280
 to try to create, um, systems, processes, and helps for people that can come along.

00:39:55.280 --> 00:40:01.860
 You know, I was, I was talking with the church, um, digital church, and they had, had two or

00:40:01.860 --> 00:40:07.760
 three suicide situations in, uh, or dealt with two or three suicide situations within a couple

00:40:07.760 --> 00:40:08.180
 weeks.

00:40:08.180 --> 00:40:12.720
 Um, there were a couple, um, you know, frictions within leadership.

00:40:12.720 --> 00:40:18.420
 There were, uh, some negativity among some of the volunteers and, and like, there's just,

00:40:18.480 --> 00:40:23.440
 there was major issues that, that needed to work, get worked out and, and, and, you know,

00:40:23.480 --> 00:40:28.760
 mental health, being able to, to listen and process and, and help them work through some

00:40:28.760 --> 00:40:30.240
 of these things is, is important.

00:40:31.360 --> 00:40:35.860
 But when you're looking at like, you know, their suicide, how do you handle those situations

00:40:35.860 --> 00:40:36.480
 and digitally?

00:40:36.660 --> 00:40:38.480
 What's, what's, what's the, the process of that?

00:40:38.520 --> 00:40:41.420
 And there's really, there's not a lot of, well, there's mixed clarity.

00:40:41.620 --> 00:40:44.480
 What, uh, once somebody says, do this, somebody does that.

00:40:44.480 --> 00:40:46.300
 And, and like, it's all over the place.

00:40:46.760 --> 00:40:50.840
 Um, and as we're emotionally available, we're going to get more of those types of situations

00:40:50.840 --> 00:40:51.580
 and that's okay.

00:40:52.080 --> 00:40:54.700
 We want to know that, but we want to be available.

00:40:55.260 --> 00:40:58.920
 We want to work through it, but we need to know where our limitations are and to be able

00:40:58.920 --> 00:40:59.760
 to hand it off.

00:40:59.760 --> 00:41:04.780
 And so what have, what we're trying to do with the church digital is to create trainings

00:41:04.780 --> 00:41:11.700
 and, and, and find partners that can help digital missionaries, digital churches, virtual reality

00:41:11.700 --> 00:41:14.580
 churches like you, uh, solve that.

00:41:14.580 --> 00:41:22.600
 And so, uh, uh, El, Michelle, uh, Stacy, Laura, um, we're working, I would say very hard.

00:41:22.720 --> 00:41:25.160
 I don't know that we've ramped up to the very hard level yet.

00:41:25.160 --> 00:41:25.700
 That's coming.

00:41:26.280 --> 00:41:29.580
 Uh, but we're, I think we're working hard on that right now and having some

00:41:29.580 --> 00:41:32.980
 really fruitful conversations, uh, globally.

00:41:32.980 --> 00:41:35.600
 Some, some, uh, partners are coming on board that are excited.

00:41:35.600 --> 00:41:36.180
 Go ahead, Laura.

00:41:36.600 --> 00:41:39.200
 And I would challenge the hand them off language.

00:41:39.240 --> 00:41:41.100
 Let's bring them into the conversation.

00:41:41.100 --> 00:41:41.520
 That's better.

00:41:41.900 --> 00:41:42.160
 Thank you.

00:41:42.160 --> 00:41:42.400
 Yeah.

00:41:42.400 --> 00:41:46.580
 Let's bring them into the conversation because this is, we want to build community and we

00:41:46.580 --> 00:41:49.320
 want to really maintain trusted relationships, right?

00:41:49.320 --> 00:41:51.720
 Transformation moves at the speed of relationships.

00:41:51.720 --> 00:41:56.040
 I heard that quote from someone last week and I was like, oh, it's changed.

00:41:56.340 --> 00:41:58.980
 You know, I, it keeps coming up every conversation.

00:41:58.980 --> 00:42:03.760
 And so, um, we want to maintain relationship with people.

00:42:03.760 --> 00:42:10.240
 And so by bringing people into the conversation, we are, um, we are maintaining that trust.

00:42:10.240 --> 00:42:11.320
 We're staying connected.

00:42:11.320 --> 00:42:12.820
 We're walking alongside.

00:42:13.300 --> 00:42:20.740
 And I think that is, um, you know, when you look at what is transformational in people,

00:42:20.740 --> 00:42:23.900
 when they find recovery, whether it's an addictions or mental health,

00:42:24.640 --> 00:42:35.620
 um, the, the, the modality or the theory or the skillset or the whatever clinical practice

00:42:35.620 --> 00:42:39.640
 the person uses doesn't actually make that much of an impact.

00:42:39.640 --> 00:42:46.100
 The biggest impact in recovery is in relationship, the relationship between you and their therapist

00:42:46.100 --> 00:42:49.360
 relationship between you and the peer supporter relationship.

00:42:49.360 --> 00:42:54.620
 And so, um, if we really want to see transformation and care for people in the digital space,

00:42:54.640 --> 00:42:58.080
 I really think we need to bring people in rather than refer them out.

00:42:58.700 --> 00:43:05.280
 You know, you're, you're, what I really like about you, Laura, is you, um, you find a weak

00:43:05.280 --> 00:43:08.220
 spot in language and you, you call me on it.

00:43:08.280 --> 00:43:09.680
 She's, she's done this.

00:43:10.420 --> 00:43:12.700
 She's done me done this maybe two or three times.

00:43:12.800 --> 00:43:14.300
 I'm not allowed to say triage.

00:43:14.540 --> 00:43:16.220
 I'm not allowed to say handoff.

00:43:16.900 --> 00:43:19.560
 Um, like, and even, even like, it was funny.

00:43:19.620 --> 00:43:22.360
 We were, we were in a meeting and we were working through the framework and she's like,

00:43:22.400 --> 00:43:24.580
 that doesn't, you need, you need to have like graphical.

00:43:24.640 --> 00:43:26.400
 And I was like, great.

00:43:26.480 --> 00:43:30.340
 I got my kids, my kids created a 3d, uh, graphical representation.

00:43:30.640 --> 00:43:33.620
 We're going to make some adjustments to that, but it's, it's, uh, it's the prototype.

00:43:34.200 --> 00:43:41.660
 Uh, Michelle said in the chat, she said alongside alongside, I think that's a, that's a great.

00:43:42.360 --> 00:43:47.200
 Um, and so that's where we're bringing people alongside the relationship where we keep the

00:43:47.200 --> 00:43:47.780
 relationship.

00:43:48.980 --> 00:43:51.600
 Um, yeah, no, I, I, I love that.

00:43:52.140 --> 00:43:55.140
 Um, so from the church digital.

00:43:55.140 --> 00:43:55.700
 Go ahead, please.

00:43:55.860 --> 00:43:57.440
 And I think, and not to challenge you, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry.

00:43:57.660 --> 00:44:01.720
 Not to challenge you on language all the time, because I don't think it has, you're not saying

00:44:01.720 --> 00:44:02.600
 anything wrong.

00:44:02.740 --> 00:44:04.420
 We're, no one else is saying anything wrong.

00:44:04.480 --> 00:44:09.700
 We all have the best of intentions, but we are literally carving a new pathway, right?

00:44:09.700 --> 00:44:10.000
 Right.

00:44:10.000 --> 00:44:11.740
 This is newly developed space.

00:44:11.740 --> 00:44:18.640
 So we are, you know, when you think of culture, uh, you think of art and food and language.

00:44:18.640 --> 00:44:21.280
 And so we are developing a whole new culture.

00:44:21.480 --> 00:44:25.100
 And so that's part of the process.

00:44:25.540 --> 00:44:26.960
 No, I, I, I love it.

00:44:27.020 --> 00:44:33.020
 And, um, you know, like, uh, Barbara, listen, I love getting, getting bossed around.

00:44:33.020 --> 00:44:38.040
 I love getting, you know, told I love being, I love being challenged, you know, and, um,

00:44:38.540 --> 00:44:40.680
 I started to say I'm man enough to be able to handle it.

00:44:40.680 --> 00:44:45.520
 But, you know, the fact is, is that I'm humble enough to recognize that sometimes people around

00:44:45.520 --> 00:44:49.620
 me are smarter and I try to surround myself with smarter people than me to make the ideas

00:44:49.620 --> 00:44:50.020
 better.

00:44:50.620 --> 00:44:52.540
 And, um, and Laura, we want to be the best.

00:44:52.660 --> 00:44:53.200
 Oh, totally.

00:44:53.560 --> 00:45:00.120
 Laura, you, Elle, Michelle, Stacey on this mental health stuff, Mindy Caliguire, historically,

00:45:00.120 --> 00:45:06.400
 um, like there's, there's a number of people that are, that are shaping my worldview and,

00:45:06.400 --> 00:45:09.420
 and even, even things like alongside instead of handoff.

00:45:09.700 --> 00:45:15.140
 I mean, that's a, that's a tell historically that I've been handing off.

00:45:15.520 --> 00:45:21.200
 And it's not, we want to, we want to include in, into the community and, and invite more

00:45:21.200 --> 00:45:25.680
 people in, which is my heart, to be honest, but I've, I've been saying my words have been

00:45:25.680 --> 00:45:26.500
 handing off.

00:45:26.740 --> 00:45:29.800
 And so to be able to shift to that language is so important.

00:45:30.400 --> 00:45:31.360
 Ukulele, absolutely.

00:45:31.540 --> 00:45:36.040
 What's available in language is a culture of greatly influences how the culture develops.

00:45:36.200 --> 00:45:36.340
 Yeah.

00:45:36.340 --> 00:45:38.640
 And with the church digital, we want to create that culture.

00:45:38.640 --> 00:45:42.920
 We want to create a culture of, of digital missionaries by, uh, encouraging, equipping,

00:45:43.320 --> 00:45:48.100
 um, experimenting, uh, empowering mission work that, that happens.

00:45:48.860 --> 00:45:53.940
 Um, yeah, Skerritt, I don't, I don't know that I believe this, but, uh, Jeff is like mortal

00:45:53.940 --> 00:45:54.400
 combat.

00:45:54.520 --> 00:45:55.500
 New challenger has arrived.

00:45:55.620 --> 00:45:56.120
 That's funny.

00:45:56.740 --> 00:45:58.500
 Um, Skerritt's a fun guy.

00:45:58.580 --> 00:45:59.660
 I just met him today.

00:45:59.660 --> 00:46:01.400
 And so I'm looking forward to meeting him a little bit.

00:46:01.640 --> 00:46:03.060
 Um, yeah, it's, that's cool.

00:46:03.200 --> 00:46:04.160
 We'll dig more into it.

00:46:04.640 --> 00:46:05.860
 Um, this has been great.

00:46:05.860 --> 00:46:12.980
 Um, how do, what's something simple?

00:46:13.540 --> 00:46:15.220
 Let's back up here a little bit.

00:46:15.400 --> 00:46:18.300
 Let's talk about, uh, being emotionally available.

00:46:18.780 --> 00:46:19.260
 Okay.

00:46:19.480 --> 00:46:23.000
 What's a simple, let's, I'm going to kick the tires.

00:46:23.320 --> 00:46:29.360
 What's a simple thing that I can do practical step that I can do to start to apply this to,

00:46:29.480 --> 00:46:30.100
 to my ministry?

00:46:30.100 --> 00:46:34.120
 What, what would it look like to be a simple way to try to be more emotionally available?

00:46:35.720 --> 00:46:38.180
 I would say the simplest way is your first response.

00:46:38.180 --> 00:46:44.460
 When someone tells you something that is feely, you know, has that touchy feely vibe to it.

00:46:45.080 --> 00:46:50.080
 Rather your first response back to them is a validating response.

00:46:50.360 --> 00:46:57.340
 And you say, Hey, it sounds like, you know, it sounds like you're having a really hard day.

00:46:57.620 --> 00:47:02.800
 It sounds like you're, you know, feel you're upset.

00:47:02.800 --> 00:47:08.260
 What it sounds like you're reflecting back to them and you're validating their experience.

00:47:08.420 --> 00:47:13.980
 You're not, you're not questioning, you're not fighting with, you're not satisfying your own

00:47:13.980 --> 00:47:20.660
 internal need to be cured, you know, know more and what's behind the scoop or who said that it, wow.

00:47:20.740 --> 00:47:23.160
 It really sounds like you've had a really difficult day.

00:47:23.480 --> 00:47:34.600
 If your first response to them is their own words and their own feelings, it, it, it, it tells them that you're a safe space that you can handle this conversation and that you're really hearing them.

00:47:34.600 --> 00:47:40.360
 And so I would say that is the very first thing and just to get, try that on and see what happens.

00:47:40.780 --> 00:47:43.700
 Yeah, that's, that is, that is such good advice right there.

00:47:43.760 --> 00:47:46.560
 Reflect it back to show them that you're listening to build trust.

00:47:46.960 --> 00:47:48.880
 I've got my friend Joel here.

00:47:49.460 --> 00:47:50.600
 Joel is somewhere in Africa.

00:47:50.820 --> 00:47:51.140
 Forgive me.

00:47:51.220 --> 00:47:53.440
 I don't remember if it's Nigeria or Kenya right now.

00:47:53.520 --> 00:47:54.420
 I just met Joel.

00:47:54.540 --> 00:47:59.360
 He's going through my EDM cohort, equipping digital missionaries right now.

00:48:00.080 --> 00:48:01.680
 It's a blessing to learn new things every day.

00:48:01.740 --> 00:48:04.740
 My network is not working well, but I am following up.

00:48:04.960 --> 00:48:16.280
 And so Joel, I want to challenge you maybe as you're following up to use some of the language that, that Laura is talking about here of, of reflecting it, reflecting it back, asking some of those questions.

00:48:16.280 --> 00:48:17.660
 That was, that was beautiful advice.

00:48:17.920 --> 00:48:23.240
 Uh, Laura, my, my question to you in this context, Joel's in Africa.

00:48:23.880 --> 00:48:31.200
 Like, is the stuff that we're talking about, um, this, this, um, uh, is this global?

00:48:31.480 --> 00:48:33.140
 Is this contextualized?

00:48:33.220 --> 00:48:35.440
 Do different cultures adapt this way?

00:48:35.820 --> 00:48:39.280
 Like how, how, how do you see some of these ideas scaling globally?

00:48:40.700 --> 00:48:45.940
 Well, I'm not arrogant, arrogant enough to say that my words are contextualized to every culture.

00:48:46.020 --> 00:48:47.100
 I think that would be inappropriate.

00:48:47.100 --> 00:48:48.080
 Why not?

00:48:48.200 --> 00:48:48.700
 Come on.

00:48:49.200 --> 00:48:49.960
 No, no.

00:48:51.260 --> 00:48:52.140
 Very hubris.

00:48:52.540 --> 00:49:03.200
 Um, but, um, I would, I would think that in, uh, as we learn about culture and context that we can, the concept of validating what someone says,

00:49:03.220 --> 00:49:07.240
 is really valuable depending on the context.

00:49:07.240 --> 00:49:16.320
 So, you know, if there's, you know, gender, um, or age, um, cultural norms, we want to respect that, right?

00:49:16.320 --> 00:49:27.820
 If it's not a cultural norm to be able to respond that way, we, that, you know, is priority because if we, you know, speak, pro inappropriately, then that's going to create barrier and mistrust immediately.

00:49:27.820 --> 00:49:40.700
 Um, uh, however, if it's on a peer level, um, you know, I think that, that from my understanding, Western culture, it, it would be, it would be appropriate.

00:49:40.700 --> 00:49:52.840
 And so if, um, if I was responding to Joel in that, I would say, wow, Joel, that sounds like it's really frustrating that your network, it sounds like you're, you know, you're experiencing a lot of tech challenges right now.

00:49:52.900 --> 00:49:54.780
 So it's really just that simple.

00:49:54.780 --> 00:50:02.600
 It's just hearing what someone says and then responding with sounds like, and, um, is it culturally appropriate?

00:50:03.140 --> 00:50:06.600
 I would have to, I would have to defer to the person of that culture.

00:50:07.440 --> 00:50:15.120
 And, and, and that's, I mean, that's, I don't want to be like, that's the right answer, but that, that's what we, that's what we believe with the church digital is all this stuff needs to be contextualized.

00:50:15.600 --> 00:50:17.440
 Joel, you need to experiment with it.

00:50:17.480 --> 00:50:20.680
 And we're going to get some of that into the cohort ultimately.

00:50:20.680 --> 00:50:24.400
 And Joel, I'm going to fast forward because you don't know this yet, but we're going to talk about it later.

00:50:25.000 --> 00:50:52.240
 Um, we want to involve you in one of our outposts, Joel, that offer you that operates in Southern Africa, where we're collecting together people that are doing digital ministry and digital mission work in the Southern African context, because I'm just to be honest, they understand what's happening in Southern Africa better than I do in Miami, Florida, or better than Laura does in, uh, Canada, Toronto.

00:50:52.240 --> 00:50:52.840
 Where are you?

00:50:53.260 --> 00:50:56.140
 Toronto, Canada, Canada, where it's, it's, it's, it's cold.

00:50:56.500 --> 00:51:04.580
 Um, it's colder than it was where I am, at least say that, but the, um, the, the point is Joel to, to, to you, to take some of these lessons and experiment on it.

00:51:04.740 --> 00:51:06.880
 Um, it may work, it may not work.

00:51:06.920 --> 00:51:08.080
 It may needs to adapt.

00:51:08.380 --> 00:51:10.580
 And one of the things we want to listen to would work.

00:51:10.640 --> 00:51:12.140
 I think the listening would work.

00:51:12.840 --> 00:51:13.200
 Absolutely.

00:51:13.620 --> 00:51:13.840
 Okay.

00:51:14.080 --> 00:51:20.620
 Um, but it, it is, you know, are you going to respond and say those words is what I was thinking.

00:51:20.620 --> 00:51:21.640
 Yeah, that's, that's good.

00:51:21.900 --> 00:51:25.940
 Um, here, yes, scare it.

00:51:26.080 --> 00:51:27.420
 Uh, it's very humble of you, Laura.

00:51:27.600 --> 00:51:31.740
 Listening is universally appreciated that that's a good word right there.

00:51:31.740 --> 00:51:32.160
 Scare it.

00:51:32.720 --> 00:51:34.020
 Um, cool.

00:51:34.760 --> 00:51:35.320
 All right.

00:51:35.320 --> 00:51:37.640
 So we, we've, we've, we've got some practical insight.

00:51:37.720 --> 00:51:38.740
 We've got some next steps.

00:51:39.260 --> 00:51:41.800
 Um, we're, we're going to, we're going to listen more.

00:51:41.900 --> 00:51:42.940
 We're going to dig into it.

00:51:43.020 --> 00:51:45.500
 Uh, Steve, Steve, I haven't put you up here yet today.

00:51:45.500 --> 00:51:45.920
 I think so.

00:51:45.980 --> 00:51:48.220
 Just, you know, uh, agreed to that.

00:51:48.280 --> 00:51:48.900
 He's, he's happy.

00:51:49.280 --> 00:51:56.440
 So as, um, as, as, as we're landing the plane here, um, any, any closing thoughts, any, any

00:51:56.440 --> 00:51:59.500
 other challenges that we need to look at it being emotionally available?

00:52:01.500 --> 00:52:08.420
 Uh, it is really tempting, uh, for us to start to share our story back in, in trying to create

00:52:08.420 --> 00:52:10.600
 common bonds and common relationship.

00:52:11.160 --> 00:52:15.420
 However, um, just be aware of when that is an appropriate time.

00:52:15.420 --> 00:52:21.220
 If someone is sharing and, you know, being emotional or feely or vulnerable with you, that

00:52:21.220 --> 00:52:26.960
 might not be the best time to say, oh yeah, my aunt, my aunt Sue had that same thing happened

00:52:26.960 --> 00:52:28.000
 to her or whatever.

00:52:28.000 --> 00:52:30.800
 Keep the focus on the other, on the other person.

00:52:31.280 --> 00:52:36.080
 Um, it is very tempting to trying to find that common ground and, and mutual experience

00:52:36.080 --> 00:52:37.380
 by sharing your own story.

00:52:37.760 --> 00:52:41.040
 But true listening is really making it about the other person.

00:52:41.240 --> 00:52:42.960
 Um, you just challenged me on that.

00:52:43.340 --> 00:52:43.580
 Yeah.

00:52:43.640 --> 00:52:43.900
 Okay.

00:52:44.620 --> 00:52:49.960
 Um, like put a, put a, put a, put a time on that.

00:52:49.960 --> 00:52:51.560
 Like, are we talking minutes?

00:52:51.620 --> 00:52:52.560
 Are we talking hours?

00:52:52.560 --> 00:52:55.760
 Like how, cause I mean, that's man, I, I feel you.

00:52:55.840 --> 00:52:56.560
 I've, I've been there.

00:52:56.640 --> 00:52:57.360
 Tell me about it.

00:52:57.360 --> 00:53:03.000
 Like I'll, you know, I'll, I'll, I'll do that, um, to try to relationally connect with

00:53:03.000 --> 00:53:03.320
 them.

00:53:03.740 --> 00:53:07.100
 But you're saying that trying to relationally connect with them actually devalues what they're

00:53:07.100 --> 00:53:10.380
 saying, I think it depends on the relationship.

00:53:10.380 --> 00:53:16.280
 So if someone's coming to you, best friend, uh, brother, sister, colleague, if they're coming

00:53:16.280 --> 00:53:21.540
 to you because they're struggling and they're opening up to you, do not share about yourself

00:53:21.540 --> 00:53:22.660
 at all.

00:53:22.660 --> 00:53:26.820
 But if they come back and you can say, Hey, how was it?

00:53:26.820 --> 00:53:32.620
 And you're initiating the conversation or you're checking back in and then there's continual.

00:53:32.620 --> 00:53:38.940
 But as when that person is vulnerable and sharing with you, try to resist the urge to share your

00:53:38.940 --> 00:53:45.220
 your own story just for that conversation, there will be opportunities later to create that comment.

00:53:45.220 --> 00:53:52.100
 Or you can say, Hey, that story you told me or what that happened to you reminded me of a time when, how was it?

00:53:52.100 --> 00:53:53.700
 And then you turn it back to them.

00:53:53.700 --> 00:53:58.720
 You never want to turn it to yourself in the moment of vulnerability.

00:53:58.720 --> 00:54:03.000
 You want to keep the focus and keep the attention, the support heading in their direction.

00:54:03.000 --> 00:54:04.000
 Yeah.

00:54:04.000 --> 00:54:07.280
 Steve, that's this, you're, you're, you're challenging me, Laura, which I love.

00:54:07.280 --> 00:54:12.840
 You know, Steve's asking the question, how's that fit within shared experiences with blessed,

00:54:12.840 --> 00:54:14.840
 begin with prayer, listen, shared experiences.

00:54:14.840 --> 00:54:20.760
 Um, you know, I, I'm, as I'm hearing this and applying it to it, you know, listening is more

00:54:20.760 --> 00:54:25.200
 about the person, shared experiences make it more about the person.

00:54:25.200 --> 00:54:29.280
 It's more about, about the relationship and spin it more towards them.

00:54:29.280 --> 00:54:31.560
 Serving is, is more about the person.

00:54:31.560 --> 00:54:35.760
 And so like, really when you, when you spin it, it's, it's, it's when you get to share

00:54:35.760 --> 00:54:38.640
 your, your Jesus story that that's at the bottom.

00:54:38.640 --> 00:54:41.040
 And so you've, you've got to, you've got to just feel that.

00:54:41.340 --> 00:54:42.320
 And I agree with that.

00:54:42.360 --> 00:54:47.140
 Like, I've always felt that it just was like, I would, you know, somebody would tell me something

00:54:47.140 --> 00:54:49.020
 and it'd be like, Oh my gosh, that's so bad.

00:54:49.020 --> 00:54:54.440
 You know, I, and I would try to empathize with them by connecting, but if that's, it's,

00:54:54.440 --> 00:54:55.880
 it's interesting that that's bad.

00:54:55.880 --> 00:54:56.800
 Like I suddenly feel bad.

00:54:56.800 --> 00:54:58.720
 Well, I don't want to put the label of bad.

00:54:58.820 --> 00:55:00.600
 I don't want to put the label of bad.

00:55:00.600 --> 00:55:07.600
 But if the, if the, because if you're having a connected conversation and showing us someone

00:55:07.600 --> 00:55:11.740
 is sharing a story, then yeah, it's, you're just, you know, catching up for coffee.

00:55:11.740 --> 00:55:12.260
 It's fine.

00:55:12.260 --> 00:55:14.160
 But if someone's like, Oh my gosh, I have a rough day.

00:55:14.160 --> 00:55:14.860
 Can you talk?

00:55:14.860 --> 00:55:16.660
 Or I really would love to talk with you.

00:55:16.660 --> 00:55:21.220
 When the intention of the conversation is to provide support, then you want to make sure

00:55:21.220 --> 00:55:24.940
 the support is directed towards the person for the entirety of the conversation.

00:55:24.940 --> 00:55:25.940
 Yeah.

00:55:25.940 --> 00:55:26.940
 Yeah.

00:55:26.940 --> 00:55:27.940
 This is so good.

00:55:27.940 --> 00:55:28.940
 We need to do this more.

00:55:28.940 --> 00:55:31.940
 Like I, I just, I really, I really like hanging out with Laura.

00:55:31.940 --> 00:55:36.960
 Um, uh, Lynn and Laura was connected to Barbara's how I found them.

00:55:37.440 --> 00:55:41.980
 So once again, like Barbara is the best thing I tell people all the time, Barbara was the

00:55:41.980 --> 00:55:42.980
 best thing I did in 24.

00:55:43.800 --> 00:55:49.160
 And, um, you know, the connection with you and the influence, um, it's probably one of the

00:55:49.160 --> 00:55:50.600
 two best things that we'll do in 25.

00:55:50.940 --> 00:55:52.980
 Uh, because I, I, I am so driven.

00:55:53.700 --> 00:55:54.480
 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:55:54.480 --> 00:55:55.180
 I'm not, I'm not kidding.

00:55:55.340 --> 00:56:00.420
 Equipping a mobilization, the stuff that JMO is working on now with, with me, I'm excited

00:56:00.420 --> 00:56:06.980
 about how it's going to roll out globally and solving this, this mental health, this care

00:56:06.980 --> 00:56:09.300
 problem, um, digitally.

00:56:10.440 --> 00:56:17.220
 This is, um, this is a major issue within the space that needs to be addressed.

00:56:17.780 --> 00:56:22.100
 And I, I, you know what, I, there are resources and there are people that want to partner with

00:56:22.100 --> 00:56:22.420
 us.

00:56:22.600 --> 00:56:24.300
 They just don't know it.

00:56:24.400 --> 00:56:27.840
 Like I've, I've met very few people that are like, no, that's, you're crazy.

00:56:28.340 --> 00:56:30.260
 Everybody's like, yes, there's an opportunity.

00:56:30.260 --> 00:56:31.180
 Let's figure it out.

00:56:31.260 --> 00:56:36.360
 No, it may or may not work, but, um, I'm, I'm confident that we're going to find people

00:56:36.360 --> 00:56:38.740
 to come in and, and address this.

00:56:38.820 --> 00:56:44.360
 And so Laura, I am very excited for this conversation and, and many others to come.

00:56:44.980 --> 00:56:49.880
 If, um, if somebody's got questions or they want to connect with you at a, at a personal

00:56:49.880 --> 00:56:54.020
 level or learn more about Hope Made Strong, like what's the, what's the best way to connect

00:56:54.020 --> 00:56:54.380
 with you?

00:56:55.220 --> 00:57:02.160
 Uh, email Laura at HopeMadeStrong.org goes to me and then HopeMadeStrong.org is the website.

00:57:02.400 --> 00:57:04.460
 Um, you can go on there or Instagram.

00:57:05.180 --> 00:57:05.620
 Awesome.

00:57:05.880 --> 00:57:10.580
 And so you'll be seeing Laura and the effects of Laura all over the church digital in the

00:57:10.580 --> 00:57:11.200
 days to come.

00:57:11.460 --> 00:57:13.620
 When is the, when is your summit coming up?

00:57:13.740 --> 00:57:14.240
 It's in the fall?

00:57:14.240 --> 00:57:14.660
 October 10th.

00:57:14.860 --> 00:57:15.120
 Oh yeah.

00:57:15.120 --> 00:57:15.800
 You guys, you got it.

00:57:15.820 --> 00:57:16.440
 You got a long way.

00:57:16.680 --> 00:57:16.880
 Yeah.

00:57:17.520 --> 00:57:20.280
 And so, but Hope Made Strong will be in breakouts.

00:57:20.400 --> 00:57:22.820
 Rebecca, uh, we'll be doing a couple of breakouts.

00:57:23.540 --> 00:57:24.640
 I'm not sure on the topic.

00:57:24.740 --> 00:57:27.140
 I don't know that I've seen it yet, but we're excited about that.

00:57:27.200 --> 00:57:27.640
 And some of the other things.

00:57:27.640 --> 00:57:29.100
 I think it's about burnout, to be honest.

00:57:29.120 --> 00:57:30.160
 I think it is about burnout.

00:57:30.660 --> 00:57:33.060
 I mean, I can, I can, I can certainly relate to that.

00:57:33.240 --> 00:57:35.280
 So that's, that's, that's good stuff.

00:57:35.420 --> 00:57:40.180
 Um, mental health's important, you know, especially I just, we're doing ministry in

00:57:40.180 --> 00:57:44.380
 addictive space where we're getting volunteers, recruiting them to come in to do ministry in

00:57:44.380 --> 00:57:45.060
 the addictive space.

00:57:45.060 --> 00:57:47.700
 And we're ministering to people that are in addictive space.

00:57:47.700 --> 00:57:50.620
 Like we've got to, we've got to get that armor of God on.

00:57:50.700 --> 00:57:56.980
 And, um, I'm thankful for Laura, for Elmichelle, for Stacey and the others that, that are speaking

00:57:56.980 --> 00:58:01.500
 into this, uh, from a mental health capacity, from, for a prayer capacity, some of the stuff

00:58:01.500 --> 00:58:04.440
 that Whitebeard's doing as well and is ramping up to do with us.

00:58:04.440 --> 00:58:06.680
 Like it's a, it's an exciting season.

00:58:07.340 --> 00:58:13.720
 Um, it's a hard season today, but I know that what we're, what we're building towards is,

00:58:13.720 --> 00:58:15.840
 is going to be used by the kingdom in a big way tomorrow.

00:58:15.840 --> 00:58:22.540
 So stay tuned on a lot of this, but we're going to land a plane and this has been a great

00:58:22.540 --> 00:58:25.460
 conversation on being emotionally available.

00:58:25.640 --> 00:58:29.680
 Uh, we've got another stream next week and actually I may jump on a stream Thursday just

00:58:29.680 --> 00:58:30.900
 to have fun and hang out with y'all.

00:58:30.900 --> 00:58:35.900
 But more later on that, but, uh, to relaying the plane here for Barbara with Home Meet Strong,

00:58:36.000 --> 00:58:37.160
 this is Jeff at the Church Digital.

00:58:37.300 --> 00:58:40.780
 Thanks for hanging out on the stream with us and we'll see you next time on the show.

00:58:41.360 --> 00:58:41.680
 All right.

00:58:41.680 --> 00:58:42.480
 Take care, everyone.