WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.980 Episode 100 of the Church Digital Podcast. 00:00:03.220 --> 00:00:04.940 No, you did not hear that wrong. 00:00:05.020 --> 00:00:06.260 It is episode 100. 00:00:06.420 --> 00:00:10.220 We have hit three figures, and we're excited about that. 00:00:10.300 --> 00:00:11.560 We made it to 100. 00:00:11.780 --> 00:00:14.160 I honestly didn't think we'd get here, but we are. 00:00:14.160 --> 00:00:18.960 And so up front, I just want to tell you, listening audience, thanks for tapping in. 00:00:19.300 --> 00:00:21.500 Thanks for being the reason that we do this. 00:00:21.720 --> 00:00:29.960 And we honestly, we here at the Church Digital, we at Stadia Church Planet, we hope this has been a helpful resource and will continue to be a helpful resource. 00:00:30.000 --> 00:00:32.260 We've got some incredible things coming down the line. 00:00:32.580 --> 00:00:34.800 Don't want to get into it now, but stay tuned. 00:00:35.280 --> 00:00:38.480 The Church Digital Podcast is not going anywhere. 00:00:38.480 --> 00:00:51.200 Well, over the 100 episodes that we've done, just up front, it's been interesting to see which ones that have been popular, that have been well-received, that are listened to, and which ones haven't been. 00:00:51.600 --> 00:01:03.800 And so, you know, I would think right up the top that the popular people, like the nationally recognized names that we've had connect here on the podcast, that those would be some of our top episodes. 00:01:03.900 --> 00:01:04.280 And they are. 00:01:04.340 --> 00:01:04.920 They're good episodes. 00:01:05.120 --> 00:01:15.180 I don't want to speak ill will of Ed Stetzer or Daniel M. or Dave Ferguson or, you know, Jim Tolberlin, some of these guys that have that national known recognition name. 00:01:15.180 --> 00:01:16.680 Like, they've been good episodes. 00:01:17.480 --> 00:01:29.220 But honestly, I just want to tell you, the top three episodes right now for us, the Church Digital Podcast, in context of listenership, Daniel Aaron and the Robloxian Christians. 00:01:29.660 --> 00:01:34.280 The top episode of the Church Digital Podcast is when we interviewed a digital-only church planter. 00:01:35.040 --> 00:01:39.860 Now, and that's been, it shot up recently out of nowhere, just even within the past couple weeks. 00:01:40.320 --> 00:01:46.580 Daniel Aaron and I were actually featured, or at least we were interviewed in context of a Bloomberg.com article together. 00:01:46.900 --> 00:01:48.900 Not together, but we were in the same article. 00:01:49.140 --> 00:01:51.240 And so, that may be part of the reason that it shot up. 00:01:51.320 --> 00:01:52.600 I really don't know why it shot up. 00:01:52.680 --> 00:01:57.420 But within the past week, it just came out of nowhere and has gotten a lot of traction. 00:01:57.420 --> 00:02:02.740 Daniel Aaron, great job that he's been doing over there with the Robloxian Christians. 00:02:02.920 --> 00:02:08.400 Number two popular article for us, popular blog, popular podcast. 00:02:08.520 --> 00:02:09.160 I can get the right format. 00:02:10.040 --> 00:02:12.440 Doug Parks, talking about church's platform. 00:02:13.060 --> 00:02:26.300 So, the number two popular podcast for us is where we're talking about multiplication and disciple-making in context of a church moving outside of its building and becoming the church in communities. 00:02:26.300 --> 00:02:33.780 And charging its people to go out, to mobilize its people to go out and be the disciple-makers within their circle of influence. 00:02:34.260 --> 00:02:35.540 That's the number two episode. 00:02:35.700 --> 00:02:38.860 You know, I would talk about how church's platform is like a radical concept. 00:02:39.240 --> 00:02:41.020 You guys are showing me just by listening. 00:02:41.160 --> 00:02:42.620 I don't know that it's really that radical. 00:02:43.220 --> 00:02:44.300 It's interesting context. 00:02:44.700 --> 00:02:48.100 For me, number three here, this was another surprise. 00:02:48.500 --> 00:02:56.140 Evan Conley, talking about chat and how to use chat to be more effective with your ministry. 00:02:56.300 --> 00:03:07.580 Now, in this COVID season, as 50, 60, 70% of churches are now onboarding, trying to figure out how to develop the chat rooms, create that culture of chat in broadcasting services. 00:03:08.120 --> 00:03:16.780 Obviously, there's been a lot of churches that have been wrestling with this, and so that would make sense why Evan's episode, and Evan's a great guy with what he's doing up at Lighthouse Church. 00:03:16.940 --> 00:03:23.520 So, it's starting to stand out why these three episodes maybe are the three that they are that have been the most listened. 00:03:23.700 --> 00:03:36.280 But whether you love these three or maybe you've never heard these three before and you want to dig into some others, thank you for listening and allowing us to help your church do this whole online ministry thing better. 00:03:36.520 --> 00:03:41.140 There are other parts that we want to help you with, of course, and we've talked about this before on the show. 00:03:41.300 --> 00:03:43.500 We're launching a new broadcast. 00:03:43.720 --> 00:03:44.780 We're calling it Beta Show. 00:03:45.380 --> 00:03:48.740 And so, we literally want to answer your questions. 00:03:48.980 --> 00:03:57.060 We're getting questions texted in to us, and so we're answering them live on Facebook on Wednesdays, Wednesdays, 1230 Eastern. 00:03:57.440 --> 00:04:03.940 And then we're putting it here in this podcast feed on Thursdays for you guys to listen to as well. 00:04:04.140 --> 00:04:10.260 Text us your questions, 484-324-8724. 00:04:10.620 --> 00:04:14.900 In the whole telephone alphabet, it's number four, the church. 00:04:15.500 --> 00:04:15.860 That's right. 00:04:15.920 --> 00:04:17.960 Yeah, I literally have the phone number, number four, the church. 00:04:18.260 --> 00:04:19.280 Who would have thought? 00:04:19.760 --> 00:04:22.920 484-324-8724. 00:04:23.260 --> 00:04:31.020 Whatever questions you have in context of digital, fidgetal, digital only, anything having to do with online ministry. 00:04:31.020 --> 00:04:35.380 We'd love to get your questions, 484-324-8724. 00:04:36.040 --> 00:04:40.140 Well, let's segue here and head over into episode 100. 00:04:40.360 --> 00:04:47.440 I have been waiting to get these group of people together to have this conversation for a long time. 00:04:47.640 --> 00:04:52.200 And what better time to do this here than with episode 100? 00:04:52.200 --> 00:04:58.760 If you're a regular listener here with the podcast, you've probably heard me tell the story about Starbucks Disneyland, 00:04:59.120 --> 00:05:06.540 where I was at a conference, and I was sitting at a Starbucks at downtown Disney in Southern California, 00:05:07.040 --> 00:05:11.820 at a table outside, drinking my iced chai latte, as I am prone to do. 00:05:12.180 --> 00:05:19.360 And sitting around the table, we had geniuses, I'll just say, geniuses of online church. 00:05:19.520 --> 00:05:21.780 So we had Ray D'Armas was there. 00:05:21.920 --> 00:05:23.220 Let's call him first and foremost. 00:05:23.320 --> 00:05:23.760 Ray, thanks. 00:05:23.820 --> 00:05:24.760 You are awesome. 00:05:25.160 --> 00:05:28.820 Ray D'Armas was with me at the conference here from Christ Fellowship Miami. 00:05:29.280 --> 00:05:34.100 We had Jay Cranda, who was the online pastor, is the online pastor at Saddleback Church. 00:05:34.520 --> 00:05:41.580 Neil Smith, one of the OGs of online church, church online, currently with Dunham and company. 00:05:41.580 --> 00:05:46.240 And we had Greg Atkinson, another OG here with online church. 00:05:46.340 --> 00:05:55.380 And he was, is one of the gurus, if not the guru, when it comes to first impressions and a lot of that. 00:05:55.520 --> 00:06:00.020 And so there's so much history and knowledge in context of online with these guys. 00:06:00.080 --> 00:06:06.340 And somehow I found myself sitting at a Starbucks table, drinking a chai latte, talking with these guys. 00:06:06.340 --> 00:06:08.900 And we're celebrating victories. 00:06:09.040 --> 00:06:10.060 We're talking about challenges. 00:06:10.180 --> 00:06:11.160 We're talking about issues. 00:06:11.780 --> 00:06:20.540 We are, as communities, as well as developing friends, we're really just kind of commiserating where we are in ministry. 00:06:20.540 --> 00:06:26.900 And helping each other figure out what some of these next steps are, maybe with our individual situation. 00:06:26.900 --> 00:06:35.160 But we're also talking big picture, how the church needs to change and grow for online church to really be effective. 00:06:35.860 --> 00:06:42.220 Now, I'll tell you, when we're sitting at this table, I don't know, February 2018, nobody saw a global pandemic coming. 00:06:42.480 --> 00:06:46.940 Nobody was thinking, oh, hey, there's going to be this massive disease and it's going to be the ticket to everything. 00:06:47.080 --> 00:06:49.660 And all of a sudden now, you know, church online is going to be credibility. 00:06:49.860 --> 00:06:51.500 We weren't talking about that. 00:06:51.580 --> 00:07:03.720 Now, obviously now, all this has become painfully clear and churches are now moving online and developing digital strategies where maybe pre-COVID, they didn't even know what a digital strategy was. 00:07:03.720 --> 00:07:10.100 So what better time than our 100th episode here to bring these guys back together, stick them in a Zoom room. 00:07:10.580 --> 00:07:17.860 Maybe we commiserate that day back in the past, February 2020, how great that day was for all of us to process through. 00:07:18.380 --> 00:07:34.180 But also, man, let's talk about where we are as a church and where we're going a little bit, how we're transitioning and how we, the church, need to be effective into getting into what the church needs to be and how we need to be effective tomorrow. 00:07:34.320 --> 00:07:35.060 Great conversation. 00:07:35.520 --> 00:07:37.460 I'm looking forward to you guys listening to it. 00:07:37.460 --> 00:07:39.680 So once again, bring it into the conversation. 00:07:39.820 --> 00:08:02.700 Ray DeArmas, co-host as usual, digital pastor, Christ Fellowship Miami, Jay Cranda, online pastor, Saddleback, Nils Smith of Dunham and Company, Greg Atkinson, one of the top gurus of first impression, myself, Jeff with the Church Digital and Stadia Church Planting in a conversation that I'm simply calling the joy and difficulties of online ministry. 00:08:02.820 --> 00:08:04.820 Episode 100, ELGO. 00:08:04.820 --> 00:08:17.440 So even to start off, I would love for maybe just a quick 30-second introduction, who you are, what do you, I could ask what your ministry story is, and each of you could go for like an hour, tell me the story, and I just want to get to other things. 00:08:17.500 --> 00:08:20.020 But maybe, what are you doing right now in ministry? 00:08:20.140 --> 00:08:22.540 What does your ministry life look like here today? 00:08:23.020 --> 00:08:29.240 So let's start with Greg, who just had his, what, third podcast with Newhoff? 00:08:29.680 --> 00:08:29.860 Yeah. 00:08:29.980 --> 00:08:33.640 Man, you got a special gift for that, man. 00:08:33.900 --> 00:08:38.820 So tell us, Greg, walking in, man, no stranger to the podcast, just tell us a little bit about yourself. 00:08:39.640 --> 00:08:41.140 Yeah, my name is Greg Atkinson. 00:08:41.220 --> 00:08:46.500 I started on my first church staff in 1994, so 26 years ago. 00:08:47.060 --> 00:08:50.400 Started speaking at conferences in 2000, 20 years ago. 00:08:50.560 --> 00:08:52.320 Started consulting in 2005. 00:08:53.140 --> 00:08:57.320 Started keeping up with churches online about 2006, 2007. 00:08:57.920 --> 00:09:01.240 And then blogged about it for the first time in 2008. 00:09:01.240 --> 00:09:08.660 12 years ago, I was secret shopping and evaluating internet campuses and churches that were doing online church. 00:09:08.920 --> 00:09:20.840 And Jeff posted that on his blog recently, where I was looking at Life Church and Seacoast and Crosspoint and Central Christian. 00:09:21.160 --> 00:09:26.700 And just checking out all these churches, Flamingo Road down in Jeff's area. 00:09:27.260 --> 00:09:28.080 There's a throwback. 00:09:28.600 --> 00:09:30.500 Yeah, before they became Potential Church. 00:09:30.500 --> 00:09:36.260 And I was just looking at all these internet campuses and writing about it because I could see the writing on the wall. 00:09:36.580 --> 00:09:41.700 But more importantly, I've been on Neil's social media church podcast twice. 00:09:42.840 --> 00:09:44.180 Shout out to that. 00:09:44.300 --> 00:09:50.880 And looking forward to coming back on again and was honored to be on this podcast with Jeff and Ray. 00:09:51.060 --> 00:09:56.200 But yeah, so I've been keeping an eye on church online for a long time. 00:09:56.720 --> 00:09:59.760 I never, ever, I'm not a prophet. 00:09:59.760 --> 00:10:09.260 I never anticipated a pandemic happening like COVID that would push people to have to start an online ministry and streaming. 00:10:09.680 --> 00:10:15.780 However, we have been calling, all of us have been calling for it for years for people to go in that direction. 00:10:15.780 --> 00:10:21.040 But I never could anticipate that we would be walking around wearing masks. 00:10:21.120 --> 00:10:22.000 I just didn't see that happening. 00:10:22.000 --> 00:10:28.920 And so what has happened over the last six months is mind-blowing. 00:10:29.160 --> 00:10:31.560 And so we're all along for the ride. 00:10:31.820 --> 00:10:38.320 And that was a magical night over coffee at Disneyland two years ago when we were talking. 00:10:38.520 --> 00:10:44.260 And just hearing Jeff's heart and frustration and issues that he was dealing with. 00:10:44.500 --> 00:10:48.980 And we all could, we're late and we were all understanding. 00:10:49.320 --> 00:11:01.360 But just being able to share together as brothers and support one another and to hear Jay and things that he was going through and just everybody getting to share. 00:11:01.360 --> 00:11:08.980 But I'm so glad that God did something in your life, Jeff, and that something moved in your heart. 00:11:09.120 --> 00:11:13.360 And I remember when you announced your new position with Stadia. 00:11:13.860 --> 00:11:19.380 And this is pre-COVID, I said, oh my gosh, they are blazing a trail. 00:11:19.940 --> 00:11:33.720 These guys, to be able to staff a position like this is so, so ahead of the curve that they would have a position on staff like this for digital church planning. 00:11:33.840 --> 00:11:35.660 I just thought, this is amazing. 00:11:35.920 --> 00:11:37.620 So my hat's off to Stadia. 00:11:38.020 --> 00:11:38.700 Well done. 00:11:38.940 --> 00:11:43.080 You guys were prepared and ready and have just blown up. 00:11:43.140 --> 00:11:45.920 And now here we are with the 100th episode of the podcast. 00:11:46.440 --> 00:11:50.940 I don't know how you crank out that many episodes so quickly, but congratulations. 00:11:52.740 --> 00:11:53.140 Awesome. 00:11:53.300 --> 00:11:56.640 Hey, that was a lot more than 30 seconds, but loved every second of that. 00:11:58.200 --> 00:11:59.820 Greg is awesome. 00:12:00.200 --> 00:12:03.860 And he's got the, you know, is with the Facebook groups and things. 00:12:03.940 --> 00:12:04.860 We'll get into some of that later. 00:12:04.860 --> 00:12:06.640 But Greg has been a great follow. 00:12:07.080 --> 00:12:09.200 And just because I'm also, I'm playing a game in my head. 00:12:09.500 --> 00:12:12.400 Greg, you got started around 2006, 2007, right? 00:12:12.540 --> 00:12:15.340 In online ministry, you would say probably around there. 00:12:15.600 --> 00:12:19.420 I'm actually curious among the three of you, who's the most OG of the OGs? 00:12:19.460 --> 00:12:21.480 So we'll play that exercise. 00:12:22.020 --> 00:12:23.200 And let's go to Nils. 00:12:23.280 --> 00:12:27.120 We're not sure if Nils has actually ever been on the Carry You Off podcast. 00:12:27.760 --> 00:12:29.220 Maybe I'm giving somebody else credit. 00:12:29.960 --> 00:12:35.140 But, you know, Greg, you know, or Nils, hey, just like, tell me a little bit of what your 00:12:35.140 --> 00:12:37.560 ministry, what it looks like today. 00:12:38.300 --> 00:12:38.520 Yeah. 00:12:38.680 --> 00:12:43.880 So today I work for a company called Dunham & Company, which is a full service marketing 00:12:43.880 --> 00:12:46.900 fundraising agency that helps Christian ministries all over the world. 00:12:47.000 --> 00:12:50.460 And a lot of my role is chief strategist of social media and innovation. 00:12:50.460 --> 00:12:53.480 And so I help ministries run ahead of technology. 00:12:53.480 --> 00:12:58.200 And so a lot of that is in live streaming and online church and things like that. 00:12:58.280 --> 00:13:01.240 And then a lot of it's even further with virtual reality, cryptocurrency. 00:13:02.100 --> 00:13:05.400 Prior to Dunham & Company, though, I started OnlineChurch.com about 10 years ago. 00:13:05.880 --> 00:13:11.740 But I would say that my online ministry started in 1999 when I signed up for my AOL Instant 00:13:11.740 --> 00:13:18.320 Messenger account when I was 19-year-old youth pastor and had my first online ministry interaction 00:13:18.320 --> 00:13:19.920 in the summer of 1999. 00:13:20.720 --> 00:13:21.440 La-di-da-da. 00:13:21.560 --> 00:13:23.280 Way to play like that, AOL. 00:13:23.280 --> 00:13:25.040 Trying to throw it as far back as I can. 00:13:25.160 --> 00:13:25.680 Way to go. 00:13:25.800 --> 00:13:27.240 Jay was seven years old then. 00:13:27.360 --> 00:13:31.300 I was about to say, like, I was like 19 or 20 graduating from college. 00:13:31.520 --> 00:13:33.640 So Jay, can you be 1999? 00:13:34.080 --> 00:13:35.780 I don't, I'd love to see you try. 00:13:36.800 --> 00:13:39.460 No, in 1999, I was just watching TRL. 00:13:39.840 --> 00:13:40.600 That's all I did. 00:13:40.800 --> 00:13:41.980 TRL and skateboarding. 00:13:43.040 --> 00:13:45.760 So no, so I've been doing online ministry. 00:13:46.120 --> 00:13:48.840 Oh man, I don't know, 2010, I think. 00:13:48.840 --> 00:13:53.200 And so, but, you know, I really love how Greg said internet campus. 00:13:53.200 --> 00:13:58.080 That was like the first thing I did when I moved into the role and I had some control. 00:13:58.220 --> 00:14:00.320 I remember just like, can we not call it the internet? 00:14:00.680 --> 00:14:00.900 Okay. 00:14:00.940 --> 00:14:03.120 Not everything has to have an eye in front of it. 00:14:03.240 --> 00:14:03.500 Okay. 00:14:04.020 --> 00:14:08.160 And so, but yeah, so I'm the online pastor at Saddleback Church. 00:14:09.380 --> 00:14:20.300 Really, what that means for us is trying to figure out what does digital look like for our local campuses since we're multi-site and we have those in Southern California and around the world. 00:14:20.300 --> 00:14:34.460 So what does it look like to have a strong digital strategy locally that assimilates to the campus, the local kind of flagship, you know, flagship kind of experiences in person, then also stewarding and connecting people around the world. 00:14:34.460 --> 00:14:39.280 And how do you build communities far away and also connect them to maybe a church as well. 00:14:39.320 --> 00:14:43.160 And then I usually try to share what I'm learning, both good and bad on my own blog. 00:14:43.600 --> 00:14:45.860 If people even read blogs anymore, I don't know. 00:14:45.960 --> 00:14:48.960 People might only read Kerry Newhoff's blog, actually, to be honest. 00:14:49.340 --> 00:14:51.580 And then everybody else is just a credit. 00:14:52.200 --> 00:14:54.500 So, yeah, it's funny. 00:14:54.620 --> 00:15:01.460 Like even, you know, Ray and I, we were talking about that, like blogs, the engagement, the readership. 00:15:01.460 --> 00:15:06.700 I don't know that it's as effective as maybe it was once then. 00:15:06.860 --> 00:15:10.980 And so we're even organizationally moving to more video and things like that. 00:15:11.140 --> 00:15:21.580 And really, it's funny, the heart, I've got a team of maybe two or three contractors and volunteers and people that I just work really closely with. 00:15:21.580 --> 00:15:34.420 And honestly, like the heart of all of this, I would give credit to Ray DeArmas, where Ray was actually the guy a couple months before we started episode one with the podcast before. 00:15:35.160 --> 00:15:40.380 Jay, I think you were like the second interview we ever did on the podcast with episode three or four. 00:15:40.880 --> 00:15:44.060 But Ray's really been the heart behind a lot of this. 00:15:44.200 --> 00:15:46.060 And, hey, Jeff, stop talking about it. 00:15:46.080 --> 00:15:46.520 Just do it. 00:15:46.560 --> 00:15:47.580 Hey, Jeff, let's just get started. 00:15:47.680 --> 00:15:48.460 Hey, Jeff, experiment. 00:15:48.960 --> 00:15:55.440 Kind of kicking me out of the shell, out of trying to get to that perfection and instead just kind of execute it. 00:15:55.440 --> 00:15:58.440 And there's plenty of quotes and things towards that. 00:15:58.520 --> 00:16:09.460 Version one's better than version none, to quote Gary Vee and some others that have been, like even outside the Christian world, that have been kind of influential in this area. 00:16:09.620 --> 00:16:12.620 But I love the fact that we can get all of us together. 00:16:12.620 --> 00:16:15.140 And I'm looking forward to just, you know, having a conversation. 00:16:15.140 --> 00:16:18.400 Maybe it's reliving outside of a Starbucks two years ago. 00:16:18.860 --> 00:16:20.540 Maybe it's just, holy crap. 00:16:20.600 --> 00:16:24.600 Can you think of all this stuff that has happened in the past two years? 00:16:24.600 --> 00:16:27.140 I mean, I can barely get past COVID. 00:16:27.340 --> 00:16:38.240 But even in the COVID season, 2018 to 2020, the adoption rate of church online services, 10% were probably broadcasting before COVID. 00:16:38.640 --> 00:16:42.660 At this point now, mid-COVID, maybe post-COVID, 60%, 70%. 00:16:42.660 --> 00:16:44.940 Plus, now they're wrestling. 00:16:45.240 --> 00:16:49.280 I mean, the biggest question I feel like I get in a given day is, how do I do both? 00:16:49.480 --> 00:16:53.540 Because churches have never wrestled with this idea of doing both. 00:16:53.620 --> 00:16:56.040 It's either been one or the other. 00:16:56.040 --> 00:17:00.120 And so, Greg, you know, early on was like, we never saw this coming. 00:17:00.260 --> 00:17:06.780 I don't know that anybody saw a global pandemic coming or the amount of credibility that it gives to online people. 00:17:07.180 --> 00:17:09.200 Thank you very much, global pandemic, for it. 00:17:09.200 --> 00:17:17.760 But was there any point where you thought anybody, like in the room, 50%, 60%, 70% adoption rate online? 00:17:17.860 --> 00:17:20.400 Did you think you would see that in the 20s? 00:17:20.700 --> 00:17:26.220 Like, how surprised were you at how the church pivoted during the season? 00:17:26.840 --> 00:17:32.960 You know, Jeff, as I think back to it, I moved when I was at Community Bible Church or on OnlineChurch.com. 00:17:33.000 --> 00:17:36.780 I moved to New York six years ago to still be the online campus pastor from New York. 00:17:36.880 --> 00:17:47.880 And I remember going, thinking, I'm going to fully experience what it's like for my family to be an online church family in another city, in another state. 00:17:48.100 --> 00:17:52.180 And honestly, about four or five months in, my wife is like, I need to go to church. 00:17:52.780 --> 00:17:55.300 Like, and we're an internet people, you know? 00:17:55.480 --> 00:18:04.360 And so I would say my pessimism had even grown in, is this really fully church or can this really be fully church? 00:18:05.340 --> 00:18:09.680 And so, I mean, I think I resonate with, definitely didn't see a pandemic coming. 00:18:09.680 --> 00:18:16.320 I always expected that online would become more significant and more integrated into the life of every church. 00:18:16.860 --> 00:18:23.220 But the dependence that it immediately, that was immediately created is, I think, the big surge. 00:18:23.640 --> 00:18:28.220 I think, in some ways, it's the unknown of what happens now. 00:18:28.280 --> 00:18:30.000 Because everyone is forced onto the internet. 00:18:30.260 --> 00:18:37.320 And now, as we ease back into face-to-face community, how much goes back face-to-face and how much stays online. 00:18:38.100 --> 00:18:43.000 And I think that's the bridge that it will never go back to the way it was. 00:18:44.040 --> 00:18:52.500 And I just don't, I think we don't know how much, it's almost backwards now as to how much is going to go back to face-to-face rather than the past. 00:18:52.580 --> 00:18:53.920 It was how much was going to go online. 00:18:55.920 --> 00:19:04.520 Yeah, I was interviewing Bobby Grunewald from Life.Church a couple weeks ago for the First Impressions Conference. 00:19:04.520 --> 00:19:11.500 And he was saying that I think it's 27,000 churches are using the CHOP church online platform. 00:19:12.060 --> 00:19:16.280 I think maybe 44,000 have signed up, but 27,000 using it weekly. 00:19:17.200 --> 00:19:22.780 And a lot of that is post-COVID that just signed up, just got on board. 00:19:23.380 --> 00:19:35.660 And my hat is off to all the pastors, church planners, comm directors, tech people, video people, everybody that got their church up and running in a week. 00:19:35.760 --> 00:19:42.060 When that March 15th, they came around and they were like, oh my gosh, we can't meet anymore. 00:19:42.580 --> 00:19:47.620 And before you know it, they were grabbing at anything they could to get up and go on with streaming. 00:19:48.180 --> 00:19:52.040 And Jeff, you guys were cranking out resources on your blog. 00:19:52.280 --> 00:19:56.940 And I remember contacting you because I have a large Facebook group. 00:19:57.020 --> 00:20:05.180 I remember reaching out to you and saying, I'm going to make you an admin, post whatever you want in our Facebook group and help these people out. 00:20:05.200 --> 00:20:09.380 And you were showing them ways to get online and to stream. 00:20:09.660 --> 00:20:14.820 But congratulations to everybody for how quickly they got up and running. 00:20:15.280 --> 00:20:21.700 You know, I mentioned, I wrote a book, it's back here behind me in orange, 10 years ago called Strange Leadership. 00:20:21.940 --> 00:20:31.560 And I talked about innovation happening when you are limited and when you are restricted and when crazy things happen, strange things happen. 00:20:32.020 --> 00:20:38.420 When you have no budget, no resources, no land, can't build a bigger building. 00:20:38.620 --> 00:20:40.540 You know, what drove the multi-site movement? 00:20:40.800 --> 00:20:47.620 You know, I've talked about the example of Seacoast Church that got denied being able to build a larger auditorium. 00:20:47.760 --> 00:20:59.100 And so they went multi-site and so restrictions and limitations can, you know, they say necessity is the mother of invention and innovation. 00:20:59.420 --> 00:21:09.420 And so what happened in mid-March when COVID hit and nobody could meet, got people where they needed to go. 00:21:09.420 --> 00:21:25.420 And my prayer, like I've been saying on so many podcasts recently, quoting Jeff, with your famous coined term of physical and digital, what I've been telling everybody is may we never, ever go back to physical only. 00:21:25.940 --> 00:21:29.120 I pray that we are always physical from here on out. 00:21:29.480 --> 00:21:37.600 Not even that, you know, if when I think about the future of the church, I think of an old word I used to hear over a decade ago of glocal. 00:21:38.480 --> 00:21:44.300 That we are a global church and we are ministering to people around the world and around the country. 00:21:44.520 --> 00:21:50.100 And we are a local church and we're ministering to people across the street and people in our community and in our neighborhood. 00:21:50.580 --> 00:21:52.660 I hope that we're local from here on out. 00:21:53.120 --> 00:21:56.140 We should be we should be reaching people in the Philippines. 00:21:56.520 --> 00:21:58.820 We should be reaching people in Jamaica. 00:21:59.000 --> 00:22:04.200 We should be reaching people in Taiwan and people across the street and our same zip code. 00:22:04.200 --> 00:22:18.500 And so my prayer is that we are more missional than ever, more mission driven, purpose driven, to quote Saddleback, to be to be all out on the great commission, great commandment as we can possibly be. 00:22:18.740 --> 00:22:24.860 Now that you have taken these strides and you've gotten up and going online, don't stop there. 00:22:25.020 --> 00:22:26.720 Keep broadcasting, keep streaming. 00:22:27.260 --> 00:22:39.380 And if you need to invest in some better equipment, maybe you get together on a shoestring budget and just held it together via your iPhone and Facebook Live just to stay online for a season. 00:22:39.780 --> 00:22:47.100 Let's invest in some gear and some cameras and look at Jeff's setup, his suite setup with that mic and camera he's got going on. 00:22:47.420 --> 00:22:50.740 He's just blowing us all away with that professional setup. 00:22:51.300 --> 00:22:57.600 But invest in your technology, invest in the future of your church and stay physical, physical and digital. 00:22:58.140 --> 00:22:59.120 Keep both going. 00:22:59.500 --> 00:23:01.420 Do not go back to physical only. 00:23:01.800 --> 00:23:03.360 That would be a travesty. 00:23:03.480 --> 00:23:06.020 And then God would have to bring another pandemic. 00:23:06.780 --> 00:23:08.860 Do not go back to physical only. 00:23:09.700 --> 00:23:18.600 Yeah, I will kind of continue that where I am shocked at the, I'm not going to do online to like, we want to be a global church. 00:23:20.720 --> 00:23:34.600 Like the, I've talked to so many churches that are, and some of that, and some of that I do think, and I might challenge it just a bit with what Greg's saying. 00:23:34.600 --> 00:24:02.820 And we come from different perspectives, but like, there is something to these small churches wanting to become global churches that can become unhealthy real quick, because it's figuring out the local strategy of like, you know, most likely the way you can make digital make sense, at least financial sense, is figure out how does the local person you're reaching in the Bay or St. Louis or whatever, how do you lead them into your local experience? 00:24:02.820 --> 00:24:08.740 And how do you make that seamless, both as a first contact to like a companion, you know, because that's the thing. 00:24:09.200 --> 00:24:15.620 We know that, you know, people are going to be coming to church less in person, but we also can engage them much more than just a stream ongoing now. 00:24:15.920 --> 00:24:17.400 And what are those tools? 00:24:18.220 --> 00:24:24.580 Now, I do also agree that you can reach all sorts of people without even doing any extra work. 00:24:24.960 --> 00:24:30.320 And so, but I find it funny that there was this total anti, it's going to hurt our church. 00:24:30.340 --> 00:24:33.280 And when the barrier, well, it doesn't, it's not going to hurt our church. 00:24:33.420 --> 00:24:38.780 Then, of course, pastors who have vision and excited and, you know, to be a senior pastor, you have to be a little crazy. 00:24:40.440 --> 00:24:49.460 And it makes, it's, I've talked to like five churches where I'm like, I'm cracking up over like they're all under a thousand and they want to be a global church. 00:24:49.460 --> 00:24:51.720 And I'm like, I'm like, this is so hilarious. 00:24:51.720 --> 00:24:58.520 And then you always talk to like the executive pastor and then there's a gap and you're like, oh, this is why. 00:24:58.620 --> 00:24:59.680 And I'm like, well, this is good. 00:25:00.000 --> 00:25:02.100 I go, they are seeing something that is true. 00:25:02.480 --> 00:25:08.760 So I am, that part is, I don't know if you guys have experienced that, that does make me laugh how like that changeover happened so quickly. 00:25:09.500 --> 00:25:12.280 Yeah, for me, it was, Jay, just kind of pick it up off of that. 00:25:12.400 --> 00:25:16.680 It was how the theology and the practical aspects of that shifted so quickly, right? 00:25:16.680 --> 00:25:21.640 Because beforehand it was, here are all these Bible verses about why we should not do church online. 00:25:21.720 --> 00:25:21.900 Right. 00:25:22.220 --> 00:25:30.740 And oh boy, did that shift super fast the minute that March hit and it was, oh man, we've, we've all got to lock the doors and we can't open up on Sundays. 00:25:30.740 --> 00:25:32.720 That shifted super, super quick. 00:25:32.860 --> 00:25:46.120 And so that was kind of the biggest aspect for me, just because I remember churches being hypercritical of, for instance, president of the Southern Baptist convention, J.D. Greer, for shutting down last year, the last weekend of the year and just going fully online. 00:25:46.120 --> 00:25:54.600 And his mentions were just rancid with just completely terrible comments on why churches need to meet and why people need to gather physically. 00:25:54.680 --> 00:25:56.840 And that's the only way biblically to gather, et cetera. 00:25:57.260 --> 00:26:01.660 And then of course, the hard pendulum shift that once this was the only option we had. 00:26:02.300 --> 00:26:05.840 And so mind you, this isn't meant to be insulting or pointed in any way. 00:26:05.880 --> 00:26:16.420 It was just kind of the mindset of how can we continue to break some of those barriers that we consider that hinder us in terms of reaching people for Jesus simply because it's not the way we've done it before. 00:26:17.080 --> 00:26:35.720 And I would hope that kind of moving forward, that we'll have a little bit more of an open heart to considering how we can reach somebody for Christ or how we can disciple somebody through technology, through different tools, through different methods, just understanding that, hey, listen, if it's not explicitly a no, or as, as a life church would say, right? 00:26:35.760 --> 00:26:38.300 Like, hey, we'll do anything short of sin to reach somebody for Christ. 00:26:40.060 --> 00:26:42.160 I agree, and that's my prayer too. 00:26:42.560 --> 00:26:48.300 You know, J.D. Greer just came out with, they're not even meeting again the rest of 2020. 00:26:48.720 --> 00:26:50.120 They're not going to meet until 2021. 00:26:50.420 --> 00:26:54.840 So you can see a huge change of heart and change of philosophy and change of mission. 00:26:55.100 --> 00:26:58.140 So again, congrats when God is stretching us. 00:26:58.520 --> 00:27:08.780 It doesn't matter if you're a mega church pastor or a small church pastor, if you're a no name or everybody knows your name, we have all been stretched and challenged. 00:27:08.900 --> 00:27:19.980 And so the president of the Southern Baptist Convention, J.D. Greer, like you said, has changed in his philosophy, and now they're not meeting in person again until 2021. 00:27:20.400 --> 00:27:28.620 So it's been unbelievable to see us all changing our strategy in some aspects. 00:27:29.760 --> 00:27:35.560 I want to just add, there's a few things that have excited me in the season and a few things that have disappointed me. 00:27:35.560 --> 00:27:44.320 What has disappointed me is that I saw, and I think it's what RU is happening in the building, is everything was about the weekend. 00:27:44.920 --> 00:27:49.380 And I think it just became, we've got to get on a church online platform and just get our services online. 00:27:50.000 --> 00:28:02.220 And I think what has excited me is the technology that I think where churches have made the most advancement in this is Zoom or video conferencing as this is what is transforming the classroom in schools. 00:28:02.360 --> 00:28:05.400 This is what is transforming even the way families are interacting. 00:28:05.520 --> 00:28:09.780 And I think it's also transforming churches as we're learning that this is where churches happen. 00:28:09.880 --> 00:28:11.840 This is where interaction really happens. 00:28:11.940 --> 00:28:14.060 This is where community is formed. 00:28:14.280 --> 00:28:18.800 Getting our sermons out online, that's actually been easy for a long, long time. 00:28:19.180 --> 00:28:24.020 It's been the technology of interacting with each other that hasn't been as real and authentic. 00:28:24.020 --> 00:28:44.960 And while there is a layer of Zoom fatigue that people are experiencing today, I do think that we have overcome the threshold of Zoom understanding and comprehension and technology of every home now, essentially, and every person who's going to do it on their phone, that video conferencing, it will be a part of pretty much every church moving forward. 00:28:44.960 --> 00:28:53.460 And that's a huge breakthrough that's going to enhance online every church and what they're doing locally and potentially globally. 00:28:53.900 --> 00:28:55.300 Yeah, I love that. 00:28:55.400 --> 00:28:58.580 And there were pre-COVID, there were not a lot of churches. 00:28:58.940 --> 00:29:07.820 I mean, hundreds, but it was not thousands of churches doing online small groups, online discipleship, disciple-making processes, whatever it was. 00:29:08.160 --> 00:29:11.800 Like, it was reverted to this online service stream. 00:29:11.800 --> 00:29:20.160 And it was probably the most logical opportunity, you know, initially, that you could be having, you know, like, we have young kids to go get childcare and do all that. 00:29:20.240 --> 00:29:31.360 Like, we just didn't do small group, you know, like, we, but now we were, we never missed a small group during COVID, you know, as a family, because it just makes it more accessible. 00:29:32.360 --> 00:29:35.120 The convenience is definitely on that digital side. 00:29:35.200 --> 00:29:36.120 I'm sorry, Greg, go ahead. 00:29:37.300 --> 00:29:41.000 I was just going to say, I'm in a small group that's on Zoom as well. 00:29:41.000 --> 00:29:43.320 I agree with what Nils is saying about Zoom. 00:29:43.960 --> 00:29:57.200 And I remember as a campus pastor four or five years ago, I was using video to train my small group leaders, because not everybody can get together in person. 00:29:57.420 --> 00:30:00.620 And like Nils said, there's always the childcare issue or schedule issue. 00:30:01.120 --> 00:30:10.120 And so we were using digital means to make sure that these small group leaders still received the training they needed, even though they couldn't make it to an in-person training. 00:30:10.740 --> 00:30:13.860 But I love, and I was disappointed as well. 00:30:14.080 --> 00:30:20.080 You know, I think Larry Osborne at North Coast said a while back about people being too building-centric. 00:30:20.080 --> 00:30:25.380 I would also echo Nils that we were too focused on Sunday morning. 00:30:25.920 --> 00:30:32.400 And yes, congratulations to everybody that got the service Sunday morning at 11 a.m. up online and streaming. 00:30:33.040 --> 00:30:39.540 However, there's a whole lot more, like I said on Carrie's podcast last week, there's a lot more to church than one hour on Sunday. 00:30:39.540 --> 00:30:42.960 And so we have to keep working out this. 00:30:43.580 --> 00:30:46.380 It sounds crazy, and I don't want to be called a heretic. 00:30:46.960 --> 00:30:49.020 We have to keep working out our theology. 00:30:49.280 --> 00:30:59.740 We have to keep working out our theology of mission and in our philosophy of ministry of how do we reach people, interact with people, grow people in their faith? 00:31:00.000 --> 00:31:01.420 How do we do assimilation? 00:31:01.880 --> 00:31:03.840 Can we do a new members class online? 00:31:03.960 --> 00:31:05.360 Why does it have to be in person? 00:31:05.780 --> 00:31:10.520 How can we do stuff to engage with people in 2020 and beyond? 00:31:10.740 --> 00:31:13.700 And so it's an exciting time to be alive. 00:31:14.460 --> 00:31:14.560 Yeah. 00:31:14.980 --> 00:31:20.680 Even small things like communion or streaming a baptism online. 00:31:20.680 --> 00:31:33.260 It's been surprising to me the number of churches, the number of pastors that disagree, that kind of freak out about the idea of an online baptism or an online communion. 00:31:33.660 --> 00:31:35.980 I was on a webinar or a podcast. 00:31:36.100 --> 00:31:44.340 I was doing something with a nationally known speaker, and I just made a passing comment that, yeah, my family, we did communion this past weekend with our church online. 00:31:44.740 --> 00:31:46.120 And he's like, what elements did you drink? 00:31:46.120 --> 00:31:53.000 And I was like, well, I think it was a Coca-Cola, and we had cauliflower crackers. 00:31:53.460 --> 00:31:55.420 No, cauliflower crackers aside, it's weird. 00:31:55.840 --> 00:31:57.240 My son's gluten, whatever. 00:31:57.980 --> 00:31:59.580 But that was the elements. 00:32:00.080 --> 00:32:05.640 And that was a major pain point with this pastor in this conversation that we were in. 00:32:05.700 --> 00:32:07.840 I was like, man looks at the outward appearance, Lord looks at the heart. 00:32:08.160 --> 00:32:09.060 Totally had that conversation. 00:32:09.180 --> 00:32:11.640 He wasn't buying that and just kind of went down this road. 00:32:11.780 --> 00:32:13.440 You did that on purpose, though, Jeff, right? 00:32:13.620 --> 00:32:15.760 You said that on purpose, but okay, okay. 00:32:15.880 --> 00:32:16.960 Yeah, yeah, a little bit. 00:32:17.280 --> 00:32:24.080 Yeah, I mean, I'm always the guy that's wanting to, listen, as far as I'm concerned, I'm always going to be the guy that's on the edge. 00:32:25.080 --> 00:32:32.300 Listen, I'm having conversations right now about planting churches in MMO games, like literally Final Fantasy XIV. 00:32:32.820 --> 00:32:35.340 There is a specific church planner that we're talking with. 00:32:35.460 --> 00:32:42.340 We're trying to figure out how to get her equipped and trained to go off and plant a digital-only expression of church in Final Fantasy XIV. 00:32:42.780 --> 00:32:45.200 Somebody out there saying that's the craziest thing I've ever heard. 00:32:45.520 --> 00:32:51.840 I'm going to tell you right now there's 20 million people who still play Final Fantasy XIV on a regular basis. 00:32:52.020 --> 00:32:57.280 Why would we not put a church in that environment to reach those types of people? 00:32:57.700 --> 00:33:01.640 And so, listen, I'm always going to be the radical guy, but I do believe this. 00:33:01.940 --> 00:33:12.940 In this COVID season, the more outward that I go with some of these conversations and I find and celebrate and equip these people to do ministry, I think the pendulum shifts, right? 00:33:13.060 --> 00:33:17.960 Because now, man, we're doing over here, we're doing Final Fantasy XIV. 00:33:18.300 --> 00:33:21.580 Why can't I not do a micro-location? 00:33:22.020 --> 00:33:24.280 How do I train people to do watch parties? 00:33:24.780 --> 00:33:29.720 Yeah, let's highlight some of the house church networks that have grown from this. 00:33:30.120 --> 00:33:34.100 Yeah, sure, my church, we can do a couple of watch parties to test it and kind of grow with it. 00:33:34.140 --> 00:33:39.700 You always got to be, at least for me, I always want to be that aggressive guy because I think others will follow suit with that. 00:33:40.240 --> 00:33:41.420 You know, you mentioned 20 million people. 00:33:41.500 --> 00:33:43.340 That's five times the size of our city, Jeff. 00:33:43.480 --> 00:33:45.500 That's, you know, Miami is like about four million and change. 00:33:45.700 --> 00:33:50.520 You know, that's five times the size of Miami-Dade County, in which there are churches all over the place just trying to reach this area. 00:33:50.520 --> 00:33:54.480 And so I can only imagine what God is going to do through folks to reach that. 00:33:54.700 --> 00:34:07.360 Now, specifically for the rest of you guys, can you each give us a story of just whether it's through your church or whether it was through somebody that you impacted, another church that you guys had impacted during this COVID season? 00:34:07.360 --> 00:34:11.800 And it was like, wow, they did this digitally, and we just saw God at work. 00:34:12.740 --> 00:34:18.960 One that pops up was there was a couple that reached out to me at the start of COVID. 00:34:19.680 --> 00:34:24.040 The wife actually really wanted to get baptized, and it was during COVID. 00:34:24.040 --> 00:34:35.760 And, you know, something that we talk a lot about at our church is this idea of, like, we understand that there's a best expression of something, if you want to hold to the truest form of what Scripture is talking about. 00:34:36.000 --> 00:34:38.820 But that doesn't mean that these other expressions aren't valid. 00:34:38.940 --> 00:34:45.160 It just means if you want to wait to be baptized at our location, you can, or we can train someone to baptize you. 00:34:45.620 --> 00:34:48.940 Sometimes people want to come to our location and have that type of connection. 00:34:49.280 --> 00:34:50.020 Both are valid. 00:34:50.920 --> 00:34:55.980 The same way as Coca-Cola and Cracker or Oreo, whatever Jeff was eating. 00:34:56.740 --> 00:35:01.220 And so, but she really wanted to make it happen. 00:35:01.460 --> 00:35:07.420 And what was cool was her husband was a believer, and I sent them training on how to baptize. 00:35:07.980 --> 00:35:12.820 And they set up a computer outside of, like, on their patio. 00:35:13.020 --> 00:35:17.320 I think they were in some part of Texas, and they had, like, an inflatable pool in their backyard. 00:35:17.680 --> 00:35:24.220 And I literally, on a Sunday afternoon, was in their backyard watching him baptize his wife. 00:35:25.180 --> 00:35:31.180 And it was just such a cool moment of, like, now that's a fusion of online while happening in person. 00:35:32.040 --> 00:35:35.160 And it was just kind of a cool moment of me peeking into something. 00:35:35.300 --> 00:35:39.520 You know, I was there just to validate it, to answer any questions. 00:35:39.640 --> 00:35:46.140 They knew what to do, but it was so special, especially as she came out of the water and hugged him. 00:35:46.320 --> 00:35:50.100 It was just so, I could tell, it was like, it was such a special thing. 00:35:50.500 --> 00:35:57.840 And, you know, it's just so funny how we, you know, obviously there is something special, too, when it happens at our location. 00:35:57.840 --> 00:36:02.200 But it's so powerful, too, to decentralize these things and empower believers. 00:36:02.200 --> 00:36:07.740 I mean, a.k.a. priesthood of all believers, the thing Protestants are pretty good at and kind of made us grow so rapidly. 00:36:08.140 --> 00:36:14.900 It's funny how we're kind of reverting back to Catholic, you know, Catholic type of things that has to happen in location, you know. 00:36:14.980 --> 00:36:18.520 And we do training, but that was a moment that was really special. 00:36:18.680 --> 00:36:23.740 And it was funny, I got to share that with our staff at a staff meeting over Zoom. 00:36:23.960 --> 00:36:26.600 And I could just see people like, wow, we can do that, you know? 00:36:26.640 --> 00:36:27.320 And I'm like, yeah. 00:36:27.580 --> 00:36:35.060 And actually, like, probably three years prior, I wouldn't want to share that because I wouldn't want them to think I was, like, this radical person that was just, you know. 00:36:35.060 --> 00:36:39.160 And it was funny, now, because of COVID, like, people, it's almost like scales are falling from their eyes. 00:36:39.200 --> 00:36:40.800 We're like, wow, we can do all this stuff. 00:36:40.860 --> 00:36:41.620 How cool is this? 00:36:41.680 --> 00:36:44.520 But that's one story that jumps off that was right at the beginning of COVID. 00:36:45.960 --> 00:37:01.260 So I, and this might be a long story, and it's not a specific story, but it, and I feel like I'm like a guy in a new relationship that I get, like, flustered maybe a little bit. 00:37:01.420 --> 00:37:09.820 So when Jay is my old bestie, isn't willing to hang out with me anymore, I've gotten to know Mike Todd and the team over at Transformation Church. 00:37:10.620 --> 00:37:13.740 And I just, honestly, I've kind of fallen in love with Mike Todd. 00:37:14.200 --> 00:37:16.460 I think he's one of the greatest men I've ever met. 00:37:16.520 --> 00:37:20.740 But I met him, because I was just thinking about it, it was a year ago, October. 00:37:21.580 --> 00:37:26.280 And I was invited to come spend a day with their team, and it was funny. 00:37:26.520 --> 00:37:28.480 I mean, I thought they had it all figured out. 00:37:28.600 --> 00:37:30.400 Like, I was like, I can't wait to learn from them. 00:37:31.180 --> 00:37:35.980 Mike Todd had a vision seven or six years ago when they planted their church to buy cameras. 00:37:37.900 --> 00:37:46.840 And his staff never really got it, but he just, like, people left the church, people were angry, but he's like, we've got to focus on this internet thing, I promise, guys. 00:37:47.400 --> 00:37:52.060 And they went viral, you know, about two years ago with Relationship Sculls series on YouTube. 00:37:52.060 --> 00:37:59.860 And it, but, but so they brought me in there, I get to, they invited me to join their team in February, not knowing what was coming. 00:37:59.860 --> 00:38:08.000 And then their whole, they bought an arena that they moved into in February, a 4,000-seat auditorium. 00:38:08.120 --> 00:38:14.140 They went from, like, a small storefront that could seat about, I think, 300, 400 to a 4,000-seat auditorium. 00:38:14.620 --> 00:38:18.060 And then all of a sudden, they can't meet in that room anymore. 00:38:19.260 --> 00:38:22.300 Simultaneously, when they go online, their church grows 10x. 00:38:23.220 --> 00:38:31.220 And he was on the Kerry Newhoff podcast, and he shared these numbers, but literally 10x and giving grew 10x during COVID. 00:38:31.440 --> 00:38:36.660 And they paid off their building cash, this arena that they bought, that they're not even able to meet it. 00:38:36.840 --> 00:38:38.580 It's just a studio now. 00:38:39.700 --> 00:38:47.040 And just watching Mike Todd's faithfulness and watching their team lean in, they literally have never had a full-time person. 00:38:47.040 --> 00:38:53.820 And they just now, they're transitioning somebody from a part-time online role into a full-time online role. 00:38:54.560 --> 00:39:09.120 And just watching their, his leadership and passion and vision and their teams, the way they've adapted and adjusted and just stewarded what God's doing there. 00:39:09.480 --> 00:39:14.000 It just is, it's a getting to look under the hood and watch what's developing. 00:39:14.580 --> 00:39:21.400 It's a, it's a God story of what's happening and the life transformation that, that just story after story. 00:39:21.520 --> 00:39:23.040 You know, I'll tell you one crazy story. 00:39:23.220 --> 00:39:26.300 They, they have a texted phone number, a 10-digit phone number. 00:39:27.240 --> 00:39:32.980 There is a lady, and when you get saved, they're like, text Jesus to this 10-digit number. 00:39:33.220 --> 00:39:42.480 There's a lady who has a phone number that's one digit off, who gets about 300 text messages a week saying, you guys have to change your number. 00:39:43.000 --> 00:39:45.380 Because, but, but, but here's the crazy thing. 00:39:46.160 --> 00:39:51.360 More than 300 people a week are getting the phone number wrong to get saved. 00:39:51.560 --> 00:39:59.660 They're having that many more getting saved on a weekly basis that this lady is telling them that she's going to sue them or something. 00:39:59.660 --> 00:40:04.840 If they don't change their phone number because it's too close to hers, because every time somebody gets saved, they're texting her. 00:40:05.620 --> 00:40:09.860 It just is, it's, I've never seen a movement about like it. 00:40:10.380 --> 00:40:15.680 And I think it's faithfulness and I think it's stewardship and, and it's leadership. 00:40:15.680 --> 00:40:25.200 It's just, it, it has been so moving for me to, to get to be on the inside and part of that team and transformation during this season. 00:40:26.260 --> 00:40:32.420 I, I just got off the call, a Zoom call earlier today with the church that I'm helping in. 00:40:32.520 --> 00:40:39.820 I do, I think I mentioned it on the Cary podcast, but I do these online secret shoppers and online presence evaluations. 00:40:39.820 --> 00:40:48.220 And so a lot of churches have been reaching out since hearing that podcast and just being able to help churches go to the next level. 00:40:48.800 --> 00:40:50.040 But it's been interesting. 00:40:50.240 --> 00:41:03.340 And Neil's talked about frustration and seeing my own home church, which is a small church plant of 50 people to, to watch some of the, the limitations, not only in technology, but in mindset. 00:41:03.340 --> 00:41:12.900 And I've tried to push our senior pastor as far as I can, but there's definitely differences in philosophies. 00:41:13.020 --> 00:41:25.700 And so that's really come to light in this COVID season when I still haven't gone back in person, but they are, some weeks they film on Facebook live and some weeks they don't. 00:41:25.760 --> 00:41:27.440 And I tune in and there's nothing there. 00:41:27.440 --> 00:41:36.660 And so it's been an interesting season, but an old story that made me think of hearing Jay talk about baptism. 00:41:37.920 --> 00:41:46.200 In 2009, so 11 years ago, 2009, I was interviewing with Life Church to go on their online church team. 00:41:46.960 --> 00:41:54.280 And this was with Tony Stewart and Brandon Donaldson way back in the day, and they were going to hire an online groups pastor. 00:41:54.920 --> 00:41:59.780 And they did a nationwide search, you know, narrowed it down like they do to five people. 00:41:59.780 --> 00:42:01.840 Then they bring you all in on the same weekend. 00:42:01.960 --> 00:42:08.640 And the five of you all go through all the testing and interview process together for a weekend with your spouse. 00:42:10.160 --> 00:42:16.340 And it ended up not being God's will for me to go there, and it didn't work out for a lot of different reasons. 00:42:16.340 --> 00:42:20.740 But I was open to it because even back in 2009, I was interested. 00:42:20.940 --> 00:42:27.620 I was going to go on staff in an online church role where all I did was be an online groups pastor. 00:42:28.400 --> 00:42:34.580 But I had to, and, you know, Life Church puts you through kind of, it's like a gauntlet interview process. 00:42:34.860 --> 00:42:38.760 And they had to do some crazy stuff and a lot of testing and presentations. 00:42:39.540 --> 00:42:47.520 And so I had to prepare a presentation before Bobby Greenwald and Terry Storch and all these people to present. 00:42:48.800 --> 00:42:56.720 And Jerry, who's over HR, I had to present this presentation on something, an idea that I had came up with for the future. 00:42:56.860 --> 00:43:16.180 So in 2009, I did a presentation called The Phillip Project, which was about baptizing people anywhere that they are located, watching the service online, whether it be at their house, their pool, their bathtub, a neighbor's house, or a local church that's in that city. 00:43:16.660 --> 00:43:33.400 So I said, and this was back when Life Church maybe had 10 campuses, you know, and I said, if you have a campus in Oklahoma City and somebody's watching in Miami, Florida, can we get them in touch with a church in Miami and say, we will baptize you? 00:43:33.480 --> 00:43:37.660 And so I did this whole project and presentation called The Phillip Project. 00:43:37.660 --> 00:43:42.560 You remember Phillip in the Bible said, here's water, why can't I be baptized? 00:43:43.320 --> 00:43:46.360 And so that was my presentation in 2009. 00:43:46.980 --> 00:43:55.280 So this is something that we've been looking at for years and years and years of how do we mix the physical, the physical and the digital? 00:43:55.720 --> 00:43:58.200 How can we take real communion? 00:43:58.820 --> 00:44:05.640 How can we baptize with real water in a world where we've been watching a service online and the digital aspect? 00:44:05.640 --> 00:44:09.900 And so it is all coming to fruition right now. 00:44:09.960 --> 00:44:13.460 And it's happening exponentially quicker. 00:44:14.180 --> 00:44:17.280 Things are picking up quicker here in this COVID season. 00:44:19.180 --> 00:44:27.480 I have never seen so many online summits and online conferences and online training and all these resources that are being offered. 00:44:27.980 --> 00:44:36.380 And podcasts are hugely popular now because of the way that people are learning and taking in information. 00:44:36.700 --> 00:44:38.240 And so this is a cool season. 00:44:39.040 --> 00:44:39.760 Yeah, definitely. 00:44:40.100 --> 00:44:43.440 I'm just curious with your Phillip Project. 00:44:43.920 --> 00:44:47.780 Did you and Grunwald figure out how to do like the whole teleporting thing? 00:44:48.020 --> 00:44:52.540 Like get the person to go from one to another and then back? 00:44:52.720 --> 00:44:53.220 No, you didn't. 00:44:53.280 --> 00:44:54.540 I gave them the idea. 00:44:54.680 --> 00:44:55.820 They had to run with it. 00:44:55.960 --> 00:44:59.840 Oh, so it's probably on their list of projects to get post-COVID. 00:45:00.140 --> 00:45:02.380 That definitely sounds like something that would do. 00:45:02.740 --> 00:45:06.280 Hey, so like obviously COVID has been crazy. 00:45:06.460 --> 00:45:07.680 We're seeing stories. 00:45:08.240 --> 00:45:09.720 We're seeing life change. 00:45:10.280 --> 00:45:17.600 I think we're all internalizing maybe this fear of, hey, for the love of all that is good in the world, don't church. 00:45:17.720 --> 00:45:20.480 Don't go back to the way that it was February 2020. 00:45:21.420 --> 00:45:27.040 Don't let that be the goal to get back to whatever that normal is because that normal is gone. 00:45:27.120 --> 00:45:31.800 By the way, that normal wasn't that great in the grand scheme of church anywhere. 00:45:31.860 --> 00:45:37.980 You know, we're seeing Barna talk about eight-year trends down at February 2020. 00:45:38.860 --> 00:45:40.160 We're seeing church attendance. 00:45:40.360 --> 00:45:40.940 We're seeing giving. 00:45:41.120 --> 00:45:42.000 We're seeing engagement. 00:45:42.480 --> 00:45:43.640 We're seeing attendance. 00:45:43.780 --> 00:45:45.680 All of these things are heading down. 00:45:46.200 --> 00:45:51.180 And so there's an opportunity here, church, to pivot in this season. 00:45:51.380 --> 00:45:56.700 So love how we're learning lessons here and aiming more towards the future. 00:45:56.900 --> 00:46:00.940 And so I've got a bunch of really smart people in the room and me. 00:46:01.220 --> 00:46:04.280 So I would love to maybe even just pivot a little bit here. 00:46:04.600 --> 00:46:10.280 Let's not look at where we came from or even where we are today, but start to look at maybe where we're going. 00:46:10.940 --> 00:46:12.640 What does the future hold? 00:46:12.960 --> 00:46:16.180 And maybe I would even just, what are the lessons that we're learning? 00:46:16.280 --> 00:46:17.740 What are the trends that we're seeing? 00:46:18.240 --> 00:46:22.000 What's like this pivot of today that's going to affect tomorrow? 00:46:22.240 --> 00:46:25.680 Where do you think tomorrow, the future holds? 00:46:25.900 --> 00:46:30.360 How are, is it, is it 100% digital church? 00:46:30.420 --> 00:46:31.360 It's interesting, Nils. 00:46:31.480 --> 00:46:33.880 You talked about how that was difficult for your family. 00:46:34.100 --> 00:46:41.440 Just knowing Jay and the conversations that he has, he likes that physical engagement as well. 00:46:41.660 --> 00:46:43.480 So paint a picture for me. 00:46:43.580 --> 00:46:45.680 What does the future hold? 00:46:46.380 --> 00:46:53.160 Just to kind of kick it off, I definitely think there needs to be, and I've already seen this, 00:46:53.160 --> 00:47:02.260 there needs to be churches of all sizes appointing or hiring an online person that is just overseeing. 00:47:03.220 --> 00:47:04.540 And this is the hard part, right? 00:47:04.860 --> 00:47:11.380 It's, it's digital is, is everything, you know, it's, it's, your whole strategy needs to be somehow 00:47:11.380 --> 00:47:17.140 digitized in some experience, both for the local member and also for people from anywhere and, 00:47:17.140 --> 00:47:18.520 and, and everybody in between. 00:47:18.520 --> 00:47:22.140 And so, um, but I think it's not just your streaming. 00:47:22.140 --> 00:47:23.900 It's also your, your website. 00:47:24.080 --> 00:47:25.720 It's your YouTube strategy. 00:47:25.720 --> 00:47:26.920 It's your social media strategy. 00:47:26.920 --> 00:47:28.060 It's your email strategy. 00:47:28.620 --> 00:47:32.700 It's, um, you know, your, your LMS is to your zoom strategy. 00:47:32.700 --> 00:47:38.720 All these things are very important and speak to who you are as a church and who you're 00:47:38.720 --> 00:47:39.360 reaching to. 00:47:39.860 --> 00:47:45.600 Um, you know, there's a reason why, you know, when I, when I, when I, when I, a couple like 00:47:45.600 --> 00:47:49.200 months ago, I wanted to buy some stock in Pinterest. 00:47:49.440 --> 00:47:53.460 I used Robinhood because Robinhood is nailing it with my demo. 00:47:53.780 --> 00:47:55.100 Like they, they get me. 00:47:55.420 --> 00:48:00.640 Um, and so, and, and it's an app I load most days, you know, unfortunately, unfortunately by 00:48:00.640 --> 00:48:03.580 like between you version and my Robinhood, they might be similar. 00:48:04.100 --> 00:48:09.300 Um, but I just like how the app feels, but ultimately Robinhood had to invest in that technology. 00:48:09.300 --> 00:48:10.460 They had to build something. 00:48:10.960 --> 00:48:11.860 And this is the hard part. 00:48:11.920 --> 00:48:14.740 Churches so much want to monetize things in a good way. 00:48:14.800 --> 00:48:18.340 They want to make, they want to be a good steward, but a lot of times technology is investing 00:48:18.340 --> 00:48:20.160 something for the small features. 00:48:20.160 --> 00:48:25.040 I was watching, uh, the basketball game that was game one was last night of the finals and 00:48:25.040 --> 00:48:31.940 YouTube TV did this really small thing where they had a little buy basketball icon as, as 00:48:31.940 --> 00:48:33.360 the play button that was going along. 00:48:33.360 --> 00:48:35.280 This was a small little feature. 00:48:35.860 --> 00:48:38.800 It's, it's like the hidden gem in like an old video game. 00:48:39.500 --> 00:48:43.600 Uh, but what they're doing is they're trying to speak the language, the love language of their 00:48:43.600 --> 00:48:43.920 audience. 00:48:43.920 --> 00:48:47.640 And I actually think digital is like this new love language that needs to be added. 00:48:47.940 --> 00:48:51.140 It's when you do digital right, it says something, it means you're valued. 00:48:51.260 --> 00:48:57.900 And so I think churches both volunteer or a, uh, a full-time person that they are representing 00:48:57.900 --> 00:49:00.600 the digital, they're the digital concierge. 00:49:00.680 --> 00:49:01.860 They represent the audience. 00:49:01.860 --> 00:49:06.500 Cause a lot of times, even as we go back to in person, uh, people are going to be putting 00:49:06.500 --> 00:49:10.760 on in-person events and not thinking through the digital experience, but have somebody at 00:49:10.760 --> 00:49:13.260 the table that is an advocate for the online experience. 00:49:13.320 --> 00:49:17.700 And speaking up, there was a, there's a, there's a small church, a friend of mine, a 00:49:17.700 --> 00:49:19.520 pastor's here in Southern California. 00:49:19.800 --> 00:49:21.860 And he asked me to look at his stream. 00:49:21.960 --> 00:49:27.660 And I noticed that pre, when they weren't meeting in person, their stream was really 00:49:27.660 --> 00:49:30.140 good and audio mix, all this was really good. 00:49:30.140 --> 00:49:33.440 Well, I had noticed when they started to do in-person services, cause they were small 00:49:33.440 --> 00:49:34.840 enough, they could do it there. 00:49:34.940 --> 00:49:37.440 Uh, the keyboard and some of the mix of the audio was off. 00:49:37.940 --> 00:49:41.000 And all it was is because it's focus. 00:49:41.600 --> 00:49:45.540 Now they're in person and some, they're just worrying about what's happening in the house 00:49:45.540 --> 00:49:48.000 in the building and they need somebody listening. 00:49:48.120 --> 00:49:52.220 No one's listening because all their staff and other core people are, have showed up. 00:49:52.480 --> 00:49:54.040 So now the audio is a little off. 00:49:54.060 --> 00:49:57.880 And so this just shows that you just need to have a point person, the person that's listening, 00:49:58.060 --> 00:49:59.600 watching, they're validating. 00:49:59.700 --> 00:50:01.200 They're going, Hey, you have this handout. 00:50:01.420 --> 00:50:02.680 How do people get that online? 00:50:03.080 --> 00:50:05.540 Hey, should, Hey, should we do this this way? 00:50:05.580 --> 00:50:07.400 Should it be a podcast instead of an event? 00:50:07.540 --> 00:50:08.020 You know? 00:50:08.060 --> 00:50:10.160 So I think coming out of this, I'm really excited. 00:50:10.220 --> 00:50:14.300 I just think you need to have, um, you need to have a point person who is your digital 00:50:14.300 --> 00:50:15.980 again, it doesn't have to be a pastor. 00:50:16.120 --> 00:50:17.120 It doesn't have to be full-time. 00:50:17.520 --> 00:50:21.620 Uh, there's a lot of savvy business owners in churches of all sizes that could do this 00:50:21.620 --> 00:50:21.940 well. 00:50:22.180 --> 00:50:26.600 Um, but I think just having somebody who it's in, it's a new ministry and it's the same 00:50:26.600 --> 00:50:28.320 thing with like forever churches. 00:50:28.440 --> 00:50:30.120 Well, we can't do social media, right? 00:50:30.180 --> 00:50:33.540 Well, you could, why, why is your greeters ministry rocking it? 00:50:33.540 --> 00:50:37.600 But you have nobody rolling, like take care of Facebook was because, you know, greeters 00:50:37.600 --> 00:50:41.700 you've been taught by people like Greg, that's important for somebody. 00:50:41.700 --> 00:50:46.820 I think moving forward, it's, it's making a lot of these digital experiences have beef 00:50:46.820 --> 00:50:49.940 them up volunteer wise and spend more time and vision in it. 00:50:50.000 --> 00:50:51.220 And it's not a side thing anymore. 00:50:51.220 --> 00:50:52.780 It's, it's, it's really important. 00:50:53.540 --> 00:50:54.680 I'll, I'll second that Jay. 00:50:54.760 --> 00:51:00.460 I, I, I hear, I mean, right now, if you're looking for a job, I've, I've, there's three 00:51:00.460 --> 00:51:03.520 churches that I can immediately tell you that are looking for an online 00:51:03.520 --> 00:51:07.680 pastor or multiple online full-time dedicated roles. 00:51:07.960 --> 00:51:12.520 Um, it is the greatest need that I've heard it where I feel like maybe two or three years 00:51:12.520 --> 00:51:14.120 ago, it was communications directors. 00:51:14.280 --> 00:51:16.300 That was the role that every church is hiring. 00:51:16.420 --> 00:51:19.500 I do agree that I think of the next five years, every church. 00:51:19.580 --> 00:51:23.440 And it's funny, people are coming to me with like, we need somebody with like online ministry 00:51:23.440 --> 00:51:24.020 experience. 00:51:24.020 --> 00:51:28.440 I'm like, there's like 10 of us, you know, like there's not, uh, there's not a, the whole 00:51:28.440 --> 00:51:30.240 lot of people with experience in this space. 00:51:30.240 --> 00:51:32.640 Cause it's so new in the church is so slow to adopt it. 00:51:33.500 --> 00:51:36.480 Um, where historically people would come to me like, where do I get a job in this? 00:51:36.480 --> 00:51:39.920 And I'm like, well, there's 10 churches who are actually willing to invest in it. 00:51:39.920 --> 00:51:42.280 So, uh, you just need to wait. 00:51:42.380 --> 00:51:44.200 And, and now the waiting game is over. 00:51:44.200 --> 00:51:47.320 Now it's, uh, just, you know, jump in and go. 00:51:47.600 --> 00:51:52.000 I think the other two, two things that I think churches are going to do coming out of this 00:51:52.000 --> 00:51:55.920 is one, I think churches are becoming better content creators, and you're going to see more 00:51:55.920 --> 00:52:00.360 and more focus on content development and the opportunity that comes with creating content 00:52:00.360 --> 00:52:01.960 beyond the sermon. 00:52:02.120 --> 00:52:04.840 And I'm a believer that the pulpit drives the church. 00:52:04.840 --> 00:52:08.660 As much as I'm focused on like, don't focus so much on the weekend message, the weekend 00:52:08.660 --> 00:52:10.340 message is, is critical. 00:52:10.340 --> 00:52:14.480 And I think learning how to distribute that effectively online is important, but I think 00:52:14.480 --> 00:52:21.260 also creating discipleship content or even evangelistic content to reach out to your community and just 00:52:21.260 --> 00:52:21.940 learning it. 00:52:22.020 --> 00:52:25.740 And I think pastors are learning, oh, this like phone in my pocket really isn't that 00:52:25.740 --> 00:52:31.280 hard to record a message or to use social media or, uh, to create a new version reading plan 00:52:31.280 --> 00:52:32.280 or whatever it might be. 00:52:32.380 --> 00:52:35.380 So I think you're going to see more and more content development focus. 00:52:35.620 --> 00:52:41.360 And then I think the other is, is just leaning into the tools of it of, I think so many people 00:52:41.360 --> 00:52:43.900 saw it as a place and not necessarily a tool. 00:52:44.160 --> 00:52:50.040 And so you either do go online or you go to your building, uh, and the reality is it's 00:52:50.040 --> 00:52:56.460 like, no, just use email, use text messages, use a website, use social media, um, and use 00:52:56.460 --> 00:53:01.800 these, use zoom, use these various tools that the internet provides us to accomplish our 00:53:01.800 --> 00:53:02.280 goals. 00:53:02.480 --> 00:53:07.200 Uh, and it's just, it's just another tool in our tool belt and it's not an enemy. 00:53:07.280 --> 00:53:08.480 It's just a resource. 00:53:08.980 --> 00:53:12.360 Um, and that's, that, that conversation has been progressing already. 00:53:12.480 --> 00:53:16.680 And I think now that church has been forced to adopt it, it's just now integrated. 00:53:16.900 --> 00:53:21.400 And so I think it's going to continue to be integrated and, uh, just be a part of the future 00:53:21.400 --> 00:53:21.980 ongoing. 00:53:23.200 --> 00:53:23.520 Good. 00:53:23.940 --> 00:53:24.100 Yeah. 00:53:24.100 --> 00:53:27.960 And it was, you know, so much of that just kind of picking it up is I think strategy digitally, 00:53:27.960 --> 00:53:28.460 right? 00:53:28.460 --> 00:53:32.120 Because like you said, like there's been this big shift in terms of content creation. 00:53:32.240 --> 00:53:33.040 I'll never forget. 00:53:33.160 --> 00:53:36.160 Jay was the first person who introduced me to click funnels, right? 00:53:36.160 --> 00:53:38.360 And, and just kind of thinking strategically that way. 00:53:38.380 --> 00:53:41.500 And Greg, I know, you know, I know you do a lot of stuff with text and church and, and 00:53:41.500 --> 00:53:45.440 how all that works out, but really just kind of thinking about that next step in terms of 00:53:45.440 --> 00:53:48.540 follow-up that bridges from content to community, right? 00:53:48.940 --> 00:53:53.120 And how a lot of that can be automated and how the church could be, and should be really 00:53:53.120 --> 00:53:55.520 the most efficient place on the planet, right? 00:53:55.580 --> 00:53:59.720 But if we don't think in those terms, if we don't start strategizing that direction, then 00:53:59.720 --> 00:54:00.520 we'll kind of miss out. 00:54:00.600 --> 00:54:05.320 And so I'm pretty stoked to see how churches kind of take that aspect of it and start thinking 00:54:05.320 --> 00:54:09.240 through, okay, how can I take these tools that are already been used in the marketplace 00:54:09.240 --> 00:54:12.740 and leverage them for the sake of moving people down a discipleship pathway? 00:54:12.940 --> 00:54:23.420 Yeah, I think what I would add goes with a 26 year career of mixing pastoring with a love 00:54:23.420 --> 00:54:30.460 for first impressions and hospitality and welcoming people. 00:54:31.020 --> 00:54:35.800 And to pick up off of what Jay and, and, and Nils were saying, and Nils talking about all 00:54:35.800 --> 00:54:42.860 of the jobs available for online pastors, you know, from a first impression standpoint, when 00:54:42.860 --> 00:54:48.220 I've done online evaluations and things like that, I've talked about hosts before I've talked 00:54:48.220 --> 00:54:55.440 about MCs, but when it goes back to the root of my pastoral calling and ministry, I want a 00:54:55.440 --> 00:54:57.100 pastor, I want an online pastor. 00:54:57.280 --> 00:55:01.600 And that's why I love people like Jay and Alan George and Life.Church. 00:55:01.760 --> 00:55:07.520 And I think back to Brandon Donaldson in the early days, pastoring the congregation at Life.Church, 00:55:07.960 --> 00:55:12.780 people who their heart comes through the camera and you see that with 00:55:12.780 --> 00:55:16.260 Alan week after week after week at Life.Church, you see that with Jay. 00:55:16.640 --> 00:55:19.620 I used to see that with Brandon, somebody that's pastoral. 00:55:19.840 --> 00:55:24.680 You know, Brandon had a background in worship ministry and youth ministry, people that have 00:55:24.680 --> 00:55:26.300 ministry background backgrounds. 00:55:26.740 --> 00:55:29.060 It's one thing to be good on camera. 00:55:29.420 --> 00:55:35.440 It's one thing to be a good MC, a good host, a good news anchor, whatever. 00:55:35.820 --> 00:55:43.380 But I want to see people as we go forward in this digital ministry, be truly online pastors, 00:55:43.380 --> 00:55:51.620 online pastors, people that pastor the thousands of people that are tuning in and watching online. 00:55:51.680 --> 00:55:54.440 And you only, you know, we talk about this. 00:55:54.440 --> 00:55:58.900 This was written about in The Comeback Effect with Jonathan Maugham and Jason Young. 00:55:59.320 --> 00:56:05.340 People make up their mind in a millisecond, a millisecond, like the flapping of a hummingbird's 00:56:05.340 --> 00:56:05.760 wings. 00:56:05.980 --> 00:56:07.920 They make up their mind about you. 00:56:08.260 --> 00:56:13.840 And so when that camera comes on you in churches, when you go to hire somebody for an online 00:56:13.840 --> 00:56:19.900 pastor position, when that camera comes on them, people are making up their minds of, 00:56:20.160 --> 00:56:21.320 no, I'm going to go fix a Pop-Tart. 00:56:21.540 --> 00:56:23.000 No, I'm going to get up and go to the bathroom. 00:56:23.160 --> 00:56:24.580 No, I'm going to get up and go drink coffee. 00:56:25.120 --> 00:56:26.260 No, I'm going to change the channel. 00:56:26.600 --> 00:56:27.900 No, I'm going to go back to ESPN. 00:56:28.440 --> 00:56:29.720 They can make up their minds. 00:56:29.820 --> 00:56:37.040 You have such a short attention span online, and we need people that know the gospel, know 00:56:37.040 --> 00:56:44.700 the good news, love Jesus, love people, are hospitable, care about welcoming and first 00:56:44.700 --> 00:56:51.940 impressions and hospitality, care about ministry and connection, and pastor people through a 00:56:51.940 --> 00:56:56.700 lens, through a lens in this digital world. 00:56:57.000 --> 00:56:58.880 We need true pastors. 00:56:59.420 --> 00:57:02.900 They're not the lead pastor driving the message like Niels was talking about. 00:57:03.020 --> 00:57:04.300 They're not a teaching pastor. 00:57:04.800 --> 00:57:06.200 They're not delivering the sermon. 00:57:06.720 --> 00:57:12.380 But in that segment that they get, where they get to help people take their next step, we 00:57:12.380 --> 00:57:13.320 need true pastors. 00:57:13.640 --> 00:57:19.420 And so what this is coming of, I'm one of those people that is late to the game. 00:57:19.420 --> 00:57:25.520 People have been talking about this for weeks, but I finally watched The Social Dilemma on 00:57:25.520 --> 00:57:32.160 Netflix, and I looked at the data and the research, and we all knew what was happening, but then 00:57:32.160 --> 00:57:33.400 they exposed even more. 00:57:33.400 --> 00:57:37.260 And I thought, man, we don't want to manipulate people. 00:57:37.480 --> 00:57:40.080 We don't want to twist people. 00:57:40.260 --> 00:57:45.780 We want to care for people and love people and pastor people and minister to people. 00:57:45.900 --> 00:57:56.380 And so in this digital world, in this digital world where there is so much going on, claiming 00:57:56.380 --> 00:58:03.940 for your attention, let's love people and pastor them well and serve them well with a humble, 00:58:04.160 --> 00:58:07.720 genuine heart that wants nothing but God's best for them. 00:58:07.720 --> 00:58:10.320 No manipulation, no tricking. 00:58:10.800 --> 00:58:14.760 Let's truly offer people God's best for their life. 00:58:14.980 --> 00:58:17.560 And that comes from a pastoral heart. 00:58:17.640 --> 00:58:23.200 I just want to add, I just texted Greg that he can speak for himself on that. 00:58:23.300 --> 00:58:30.040 And so he wasn't laughing about the manipulating people, just to clarify a mid-chuckle. 00:58:30.360 --> 00:58:32.260 Sorry for the distraction there. 00:58:32.360 --> 00:58:38.460 I'm pretty sure every mid-chuckle that Greg's had in this is somehow related to the Zoom chat room. 00:58:38.720 --> 00:58:46.420 And that is a new function of dual conversations that have now been introduced in this world of Zoom. 00:58:47.380 --> 00:58:52.400 Jeff, I think to get into future stuff, I do want to just highlight some future technologies 00:58:52.400 --> 00:58:55.960 that I love to talk about, and I think all of us here love to talk about. 00:58:56.440 --> 00:58:58.340 I'm a huge fan of virtual reality. 00:58:58.500 --> 00:59:00.340 I think that's a big part of our future. 00:59:01.040 --> 00:59:03.300 I think, I just watched a video yesterday. 00:59:03.300 --> 00:59:04.820 You've been saying that for a long time. 00:59:05.160 --> 00:59:07.140 And it's been slower than I thought. 00:59:07.220 --> 00:59:09.300 And I think it's going to be different than I initially thought. 00:59:10.260 --> 00:59:11.180 Hey, hold on, Nils. 00:59:11.280 --> 00:59:12.580 I want to put something on your radar. 00:59:13.040 --> 00:59:14.200 We recorded a podcast. 00:59:14.420 --> 00:59:15.520 It's actually episode 99. 00:59:15.700 --> 00:59:16.780 It just launched. 00:59:17.280 --> 00:59:18.820 Have you heard of this church, Cornerstone? 00:59:19.600 --> 00:59:21.740 I want to say it's up in the Seattle area. 00:59:22.480 --> 00:59:24.580 Jason Holy is the lead pastor. 00:59:24.960 --> 00:59:25.100 Okay. 00:59:26.040 --> 00:59:26.760 I'll get you. 00:59:26.860 --> 00:59:28.240 It's obviously, it hasn't published yet. 00:59:28.300 --> 00:59:29.300 It will by the time, whatever. 00:59:29.300 --> 00:59:30.560 I'll send you the link when it's out. 00:59:31.040 --> 00:59:35.640 It's a 300-person church, small church, relatively speaking, small. 00:59:36.800 --> 00:59:39.320 They broadcast their services online. 00:59:39.820 --> 00:59:41.800 They also have a virtual reality campus. 00:59:42.440 --> 00:59:50.880 They've launched virtual reality at the beginning of COVID, volunteer-based, church-supported. 00:59:50.880 --> 01:00:03.480 They've got one, an executive pastor of this 300-person church that manages physical, broadcast, online, all the digital components together. 01:00:03.640 --> 01:00:06.220 But then avatar, VR, completely separate. 01:00:06.620 --> 01:00:15.300 And I told them when I was doing the podcast, I'm pretty sure the only person I know of that's actually doing all three of those environments simultaneously. 01:00:15.560 --> 01:00:18.800 So even small churches, you know, DJ Soto, love the guy. 01:00:18.900 --> 01:00:24.160 But even small churches at this point are starting to experiment and get into this idea of VR, even in 2020. 01:00:24.400 --> 01:00:29.280 And I think the thing about VR is there's so many layers, too. 01:00:29.400 --> 01:00:31.760 And I bought, and I've got this camera here, and I show it off a lot. 01:00:32.100 --> 01:00:33.360 It's four years old. 01:00:33.700 --> 01:00:35.380 You know, this is a 360 camera. 01:00:36.420 --> 01:00:37.680 There's 360 video. 01:00:37.800 --> 01:00:39.520 There's avatar VR. 01:00:39.840 --> 01:00:41.800 There's so many layers of VR. 01:00:41.960 --> 01:00:54.120 And what I saw on YouTube yesterday was Bloomberg just did a, like the news network did a survey on half of the Fortune 500 companies that are now using VR for meetings. 01:00:54.360 --> 01:00:57.140 And the opportunity around small groups in VR. 01:00:57.340 --> 01:01:07.180 I was meeting with Pete Scazzaro just before this, and he's talking about doing some devotional curriculum in VR of basically it's an immersive prayer experience opportunity. 01:01:07.180 --> 01:01:16.320 There are so many opportunities when you think about that medium of what we do for the church and how that medium can translate to what we do. 01:01:17.060 --> 01:01:21.800 And so I'm bullish still that that's going to be a big part of the future of the church. 01:01:22.200 --> 01:01:27.100 I, though, am becoming more and more realistic that it just is going to move slower than I anticipated. 01:01:28.520 --> 01:01:31.200 And a lot of that has to do with the hardware accessibility. 01:01:32.020 --> 01:01:43.340 But I do think that those churches that make an upfront, you know, look at Life.Church, how nuts did everybody think they were 14 years ago or whenever it was that they started this internet campus. 01:01:43.880 --> 01:01:47.040 But sometimes you've got to jump into some things and to let them fizzle. 01:01:47.440 --> 01:01:50.800 And it's not that expensive of an investment to jump into VR. 01:01:50.940 --> 01:01:53.340 You don't have to be a megachurch to jump into VR. 01:01:53.860 --> 01:01:58.480 So I think that's a space that if you want to get ahead, that's a space to get ahead of. 01:01:58.480 --> 01:02:01.440 But the other thing that I'm playing with a lot and I talk about a lot is cryptocurrency. 01:02:02.620 --> 01:02:04.480 And I think it's the future of money. 01:02:04.700 --> 01:02:08.100 I think that also is probably even further behind virtual reality. 01:02:08.760 --> 01:02:12.560 But but so in so much of how much does the Bible talk about money? 01:02:12.640 --> 01:02:24.760 And as we think about global exchange and global congregations and cryptocurrency is really, I think, from a monetary standpoint, going to bring together the world and going to allow transactions to become more efficient and more global. 01:02:25.360 --> 01:02:30.740 And so I think it's going to be a big part of the future of the church from a digital perspective. 01:02:31.500 --> 01:02:33.440 Those are two very separate things. 01:02:33.780 --> 01:02:41.340 But those are the two technologies that have the majority of my attention as to what I think are going to be most transformative moving into the future. 01:02:42.200 --> 01:02:47.940 I feel like I need to, like, hang out with you one day, Nils, and just better understand, like, the cryptocurrency. 01:02:48.380 --> 01:02:51.300 I don't I don't I don't I don't grasp that. 01:02:51.420 --> 01:02:52.820 I just I don't understand. 01:02:53.140 --> 01:02:54.620 Like, I'm not I'm not sarcastic. 01:02:54.740 --> 01:02:55.300 I'm not mocking. 01:02:55.420 --> 01:02:56.420 I just don't understand. 01:02:56.580 --> 01:02:59.960 And I'll give you 30 seconds of at the end of the day. 01:03:00.880 --> 01:03:03.100 Money in America is paper. 01:03:03.400 --> 01:03:04.780 There's no gold at the bottom of it. 01:03:04.860 --> 01:03:05.220 It's paper. 01:03:05.420 --> 01:03:07.960 We exchange paper and we agree with what paper is built on. 01:03:08.360 --> 01:03:10.580 Everything else in our life is being digitized. 01:03:10.880 --> 01:03:12.460 Should money not be digitized? 01:03:12.500 --> 01:03:13.760 We're actually digitizing. 01:03:13.860 --> 01:03:16.840 We transact our credit cards and other things digitally. 01:03:17.120 --> 01:03:18.800 But at the bottom of it is paper. 01:03:19.340 --> 01:03:20.520 Well, paper can be burned. 01:03:20.640 --> 01:03:21.560 Paper could disappear. 01:03:21.720 --> 01:03:23.360 Paper can be re-replicated. 01:03:24.360 --> 01:03:38.400 And cryptocurrency is essentially a secure form of monitoring transactions that can't be hacked as easily or stolen like paper out of a bank, which is crazy that people literally go steal paper out of a bank and then they have $10,000. 01:03:39.200 --> 01:03:42.380 Well, cryptocurrency, now you're seeing hacks and things like that that are happening. 01:03:42.380 --> 01:03:48.680 But all that to say, our money should be digital and represented digitally. 01:03:48.920 --> 01:03:50.880 And it just conceptually makes so much sense. 01:03:50.960 --> 01:03:54.940 And it's almost ludicrous to think that our money is literally just paper. 01:03:55.300 --> 01:03:57.940 And we just agree that that paper is worth a certain amount. 01:03:58.340 --> 01:04:01.740 I was going to give a shout out to that little pocket camera he showed. 01:04:01.940 --> 01:04:04.980 I was with Neal's in New York City a few years ago. 01:04:05.460 --> 01:04:07.620 And we were walking through Times Square. 01:04:08.240 --> 01:04:12.720 And right in the middle of Times Square, Neal's got to bust out that camera. 01:04:13.020 --> 01:04:17.140 It was Toby Mac in concert in the middle of Times Square. 01:04:18.040 --> 01:04:21.540 Luis Palau and Toby Mac were proclaiming the gospel. 01:04:21.760 --> 01:04:23.500 And I was like, what is going on? 01:04:23.520 --> 01:04:24.900 Are we in New York City? 01:04:25.400 --> 01:04:26.420 But it was pretty cool. 01:04:26.420 --> 01:04:27.640 And that camera came out. 01:04:28.640 --> 01:04:32.040 I was going to say, you know, just to give us a shameless plug, Jeff. 01:04:32.780 --> 01:04:35.080 The First Impressions Conference is coming up. 01:04:35.140 --> 01:04:37.160 Our theme for this year, it's a month away. 01:04:37.660 --> 01:04:41.020 Our theme for this year is navigating a new season. 01:04:41.680 --> 01:04:43.680 And so we're all in a new season. 01:04:43.680 --> 01:04:51.520 And so we're going to hear from speakers like Neal's, like Jeffrey, like DJ Soto, like Myron Pierce, 01:04:52.040 --> 01:04:57.200 who is doing Digi Churches and a good friend of mine who I just talked to a little bit ago. 01:04:57.320 --> 01:05:00.960 And then also Haley at Bayside Church. 01:05:01.440 --> 01:05:04.420 Neal's was talking about getting content out in unique ways. 01:05:04.520 --> 01:05:06.840 And they're doing great stuff with YouTube and content. 01:05:07.060 --> 01:05:12.400 So we're going to hear from these speakers and talk about the future of church and navigating a new season. 01:05:12.780 --> 01:05:17.580 That's my heart is to help people think through this and to highlight speakers like you guys. 01:05:18.740 --> 01:05:20.360 Jay, we got to get you in there. 01:05:20.500 --> 01:05:22.700 We had three people this year from Saddleback. 01:05:22.800 --> 01:05:25.780 And so we didn't want to load it too heavy from Saddleback. 01:05:27.240 --> 01:05:28.420 You're number four. 01:05:30.000 --> 01:05:37.100 I've got longtime friend Dennis Choi and then obviously Rick Warren speaking and then Rommel from... 01:05:37.100 --> 01:05:38.700 Rick bumped me. 01:05:40.420 --> 01:05:41.440 Rick bumped you. 01:05:42.800 --> 01:05:44.520 But we're going to get you into the future. 01:05:44.760 --> 01:05:46.860 We have two conferences every year. 01:05:47.140 --> 01:05:49.100 We're already working on May 2021. 01:05:50.320 --> 01:05:52.820 Exciting, exciting conference in 2021. 01:05:52.820 --> 01:06:04.180 But yeah, so we're going to hear from Niels and Jeff and everybody and DJ Soto and Myron Pierce talking about the future of ministry, navigating a new season. 01:06:04.460 --> 01:06:08.740 And so it's my heart to help people dream and think, how could this be? 01:06:09.060 --> 01:06:10.740 What you guys have been doing for years. 01:06:10.800 --> 01:06:14.860 That's why we have these great chats when we get together and we had that coffee at Disneyland. 01:06:15.300 --> 01:06:16.000 It's dreaming. 01:06:16.160 --> 01:06:17.260 What could church be like? 01:06:17.260 --> 01:06:24.900 I remember asking Jay at Disneyland over coffee, what constitutes a campus? 01:06:25.940 --> 01:06:30.220 Like, say somebody says, hey, I have a watch party at my house in Phoenix, Arizona. 01:06:30.580 --> 01:06:32.080 Are they a Saddleback campus? 01:06:32.580 --> 01:06:36.740 And he was like, well, you have to do this and this and this. 01:06:37.160 --> 01:06:44.900 And we're in this crazy fast moving time where, and I see this locally here in the Charlotte Metro with Elevation Church, 01:06:44.900 --> 01:06:51.620 where people are popping up watch parties all over the world and they're flying the banner and they're saying, 01:06:51.820 --> 01:06:56.080 we're an elevation campus and we're, and I'm sure Jay's driven crazy by it. 01:06:56.080 --> 01:06:57.360 We're a Saddleback campus. 01:06:58.240 --> 01:07:04.120 And, and what, how did, how, you know, Niels knows, you know, we've heard this, this thing for years. 01:07:04.120 --> 01:07:07.800 And I shared this with Jeff Reed over Cuban food in Miami. 01:07:08.040 --> 01:07:09.960 You can either have growth or control. 01:07:10.280 --> 01:07:11.800 You can either have growth or control. 01:07:11.920 --> 01:07:13.360 And so you can't have both. 01:07:13.360 --> 01:07:14.800 Were you the guy that said that? 01:07:15.200 --> 01:07:16.360 I was the one who told you that. 01:07:16.800 --> 01:07:16.920 Yeah. 01:07:17.300 --> 01:07:20.060 I, I, I, I did not remember it being you. 01:07:20.200 --> 01:07:22.880 I tell that quote at least five times a week. 01:07:22.880 --> 01:07:24.500 We talked about it over Cuban food. 01:07:24.600 --> 01:07:24.880 Yeah. 01:07:25.000 --> 01:07:25.740 In Miami. 01:07:26.320 --> 01:07:27.160 But the thing is. 01:07:27.500 --> 01:07:28.040 Much, much respect right now. 01:07:28.180 --> 01:07:29.940 I, I, I did not remember you. 01:07:30.120 --> 01:07:30.520 Thank you. 01:07:30.620 --> 01:07:31.580 I'll give you credit now. 01:07:31.660 --> 01:07:32.280 It's weird, Jeff. 01:07:32.280 --> 01:07:34.120 You put it as your quote in your ebook. 01:07:34.320 --> 01:07:34.800 I thought that was weird. 01:07:34.800 --> 01:07:35.460 I'm just saying. 01:07:35.900 --> 01:07:37.440 Like, maybe I claimed it. 01:07:37.440 --> 01:07:39.000 I always thought it was Clay Scroggins. 01:07:39.480 --> 01:07:40.100 Clay Scroggins. 01:07:41.260 --> 01:07:43.580 That was another Clay Scroggins classic. 01:07:43.820 --> 01:07:51.660 No, but, um, but my thought, my thought is we were talking two years ago about, hey, Jay, there's these watch parties springing up. 01:07:51.740 --> 01:07:53.720 Does that mean they're a Saddleback campus? 01:07:53.820 --> 01:08:02.420 And so there's so much happening in this new frontier, this new blazing, navigating the new season of ministry to quote First Impressions Conference. 01:08:02.800 --> 01:08:06.460 There's so much happening of what constitutes a campus. 01:08:07.040 --> 01:08:11.320 And how do you tell people they can't meet if they want to open up their home and have a watch party? 01:08:11.580 --> 01:08:13.640 And, and how do we get them resources? 01:08:13.640 --> 01:08:15.100 And how do we connect with them? 01:08:15.580 --> 01:08:29.140 I've watched, uh, Elevation now has watch party pastors and they show up on site and they travel and fly every week to different cities and they show up on site and say, we're here in Philadelphia and we're at a watch party. 01:08:29.140 --> 01:08:31.560 And I'm thinking, this is outrageous. 01:08:31.560 --> 01:08:41.220 I mean, this is, you know, when you get back, when you get back to the New Testament, when you get back to Paul, the apostle Paul, he was not there in person. 01:08:41.380 --> 01:08:42.580 He sent letters. 01:08:43.140 --> 01:08:44.260 He was not there in person. 01:08:44.380 --> 01:08:52.740 And so there has always been the theological, biblical precedent for an online type ministry where you don't have to be there in person. 01:08:53.260 --> 01:09:02.500 The apostle Paul, who we all quote and read and memorize and, and, and preach from is not there in person talking to us. 01:09:02.500 --> 01:09:04.040 We're reading his letter. 01:09:04.680 --> 01:09:13.640 And so there's been this precedent for this type of ministry for a long, long, long time, 2000 years, but, um, it's a crazy time we're living in. 01:09:13.800 --> 01:09:15.720 I want to add that to the watch party trend. 01:09:15.720 --> 01:09:20.260 So that that's a huge trend that's happening right now and, and will continue to happen. 01:09:20.440 --> 01:09:22.120 I hate the name watch party. 01:09:22.320 --> 01:09:24.460 I think it doesn't represent what it is. 01:09:24.500 --> 01:09:26.440 It should be like worship party or church party. 01:09:26.440 --> 01:09:32.260 Like watch, watch party is almost speaking to the same weekend of just come and watch and do that together. 01:09:32.260 --> 01:09:36.840 House party, maybe, maybe aligns very pretty better, but I just don't like the term watch. 01:09:36.840 --> 01:09:42.680 Uh, because I think it's still aligns to what I feel like was the flaw of so many churches. 01:09:42.980 --> 01:09:43.300 Yeah. 01:09:45.300 --> 01:09:45.760 Come and see. 01:09:45.760 --> 01:09:47.320 You guys are what home gathering. 01:09:47.680 --> 01:09:48.760 Is that, is that what you call it? 01:09:49.020 --> 01:09:49.260 No. 01:09:49.340 --> 01:09:52.800 Well, we've had like a thousand names cause we're constantly tinkering with it. 01:09:52.800 --> 01:09:57.460 So we're actually right now, it's, it's somewhere, it's Saddleback somewhere is, is actually what 01:09:57.460 --> 01:09:57.980 it is now. 01:09:58.500 --> 01:09:58.860 Somewhere? 01:09:59.520 --> 01:09:59.680 Yeah. 01:09:59.760 --> 01:10:01.560 Somewhere, somewhere, anywhere, somewhere. 01:10:01.720 --> 01:10:02.760 Do we like somewhere? 01:10:02.940 --> 01:10:04.940 I'm, I'm, I'm kind of up in the air on somewhere. 01:10:05.060 --> 01:10:06.260 Hey, I like the alliterative. 01:10:06.260 --> 01:10:07.440 I like the alliterative dialogue. 01:10:08.320 --> 01:10:12.500 Hey Jeff, you know, the good thing is, is that you guys don't get to make that decision. 01:10:12.500 --> 01:10:14.700 So you can take a vote if you want. 01:10:14.980 --> 01:10:20.460 I mean, but I, I do think kind of echoing what Greg was saying that I really, I'm excited 01:10:20.460 --> 01:10:24.420 about, and I've always, I've always been a big believer of this. 01:10:24.520 --> 01:10:27.420 The larger you get, the harder it is for you to change your ways. 01:10:27.720 --> 01:10:32.320 And I think just because it's, it's, it's your, at the end of the day, there's things 01:10:32.320 --> 01:10:33.140 that pay the bills. 01:10:33.300 --> 01:10:38.020 This is why online is always kind of threatening to a local, to a, to most churches is that 01:10:38.020 --> 01:10:40.800 it's inherently feels like you're cannibalizing your, your market. 01:10:41.780 --> 01:10:45.700 And so, I mean, the, the classics that you kind of go over and over again. 01:10:45.700 --> 01:10:51.640 And so, I mean, and I, that's why I do think that, you know, for, for Saddleback and a lot 01:10:51.640 --> 01:10:59.600 of, a lot of big churches, it's really hard to change and embrace, let's say like a somewhere 01:10:59.600 --> 01:11:04.720 watch party strategy, just inherently because it's anti how you're staffed and structured 01:11:04.720 --> 01:11:05.700 and goals and everything. 01:11:05.880 --> 01:11:10.420 And so I'm really personally, I think both, you know, large churches aren't going away, 01:11:10.760 --> 01:11:11.900 small churches aren't going away. 01:11:12.000 --> 01:11:16.100 But I do think that there's going to be more and more disruptors that are going to plant 01:11:16.100 --> 01:11:17.460 things and do things from it. 01:11:17.580 --> 01:11:21.940 Cause when you do it from the, um, up down, it just, it looks completely different. 01:11:22.000 --> 01:11:23.960 But I, and, and it influences everything. 01:11:24.060 --> 01:11:25.260 I was reading the thing yesterday. 01:11:25.260 --> 01:11:28.040 They were talking about, uh, Amazon's new palm reader thing. 01:11:28.040 --> 01:11:29.260 That's going to be for the ID. 01:11:29.380 --> 01:11:34.640 That's not for your, um, your face, but they were talking about how like the infrastructure 01:11:34.640 --> 01:11:39.480 has influenced this decision because like Apple, for example, the fingerprint is only, only 01:11:39.480 --> 01:11:40.240 stored locally. 01:11:40.780 --> 01:11:42.880 And, and it's because of privacy. 01:11:42.880 --> 01:11:47.880 The local device is the authenticator where Amazon is changing it because the palm is going 01:11:47.880 --> 01:11:49.200 to be actually stored in the cloud. 01:11:49.200 --> 01:11:51.420 It's not being authenticated at the device level. 01:11:51.860 --> 01:11:55.160 And so there, but I bring this up because this is like a philosophy thing. 01:11:55.480 --> 01:11:56.480 It's at the core. 01:11:56.720 --> 01:11:59.180 And so obviously there's some privacy concerns with the Amazon model. 01:11:59.620 --> 01:12:04.420 Um, and obviously this is how, and so I think there's a lot of churches that are going to 01:12:04.420 --> 01:12:06.640 have to have hybrid and it will make sense. 01:12:06.640 --> 01:12:09.520 But I think there's going to be a lot of cool churches doing things that are probably have 01:12:09.520 --> 01:12:13.800 way more potential to blow this up in a whole new way. 01:12:13.800 --> 01:12:18.180 And I'm excited for those that are coming out of this scene that, um, and I think that's 01:12:18.180 --> 01:12:23.140 going to, we're going to see in five years, just like people who just rethought everything 01:12:23.140 --> 01:12:26.860 and they didn't have to be constrained to the old way of thinking. 01:12:28.240 --> 01:12:33.560 It's been fun for me, even in, I'm coming off literally this week, we've been going through, 01:12:33.560 --> 01:12:35.480 uh, assessment of church planners. 01:12:35.480 --> 01:12:39.780 And this is our first group of digital only church planners that we're working with. 01:12:39.780 --> 01:12:48.480 And, and hearing, uh, these guys and gals talking about what their vision is, how they're re-imagining 01:12:48.480 --> 01:12:49.120 the church. 01:12:49.520 --> 01:12:55.100 Um, it's, it's funny that one of them was actually trying to replicate the model of the physical 01:12:55.100 --> 01:12:58.180 church, not doing a digital, just kind of trying to copy it. 01:12:58.740 --> 01:13:03.100 And, and within like the three day retreat that we're doing by day two, he's like, yeah, 01:13:03.100 --> 01:13:04.120 none of this is going to work. 01:13:04.120 --> 01:13:04.760 I'm going to have to. 01:13:04.760 --> 01:13:08.960 And so he's literally like throwing away all of his plans, trying to come up with, with, 01:13:09.020 --> 01:13:10.700 with something new on the fly. 01:13:10.700 --> 01:13:15.920 And, and we got plenty of time to kind of reshape it and solidify it before, but it's very 01:13:15.920 --> 01:13:21.340 exciting that for in this season to kind of see some of the newness, some of the people 01:13:21.340 --> 01:13:26.360 coming in with a fresh perspective, kind of recognizing, okay, like we need to follow 01:13:26.360 --> 01:13:27.260 the Bible. 01:13:27.260 --> 01:13:31.280 We need to follow the biblical standards, the ecclesiology, maybe a little more than the 01:13:31.280 --> 01:13:36.480 traditional mindset and the liturgy that we're seeing more in the modern church or even 01:13:36.480 --> 01:13:40.000 the traditional church that we've seen here in America. 01:13:40.000 --> 01:13:41.780 So I, it's an exciting time. 01:13:41.860 --> 01:13:42.680 It's a scary time. 01:13:42.780 --> 01:13:44.260 There are going to be churches that are going to get it. 01:13:44.600 --> 01:13:46.300 There are churches that, that won't. 01:13:46.340 --> 01:13:51.100 Um, and, and, you know, let's drop Kerry Newhoff for like the umpteenth time here in, in this 01:13:51.100 --> 01:13:51.480 podcast. 01:13:51.480 --> 01:13:56.920 You know, he's been a great one of these guys to, to just continue to, to help churches in 01:13:56.920 --> 01:14:01.780 the season understand, you know, one of the quotes that he said recently was this idea 01:14:01.780 --> 01:14:05.320 of, Hey, churches that are going to survive in the future, the ones that are going to be 01:14:05.320 --> 01:14:09.180 equipping people that are going to be moving beyond just the content. 01:14:09.300 --> 01:14:14.000 And empowering people with the message as opposed to carrying all the weight. 01:14:14.260 --> 01:14:19.040 And we, you know, Ray and I, we spent so much time talking about this idea of church as 01:14:19.040 --> 01:14:24.040 platform where we're reproducing and empowering rather than just creating this, this content 01:14:24.040 --> 01:14:24.520 idea. 01:14:25.080 --> 01:14:28.540 Um, and people are buying it and they're running it and they're implementing it. 01:14:28.620 --> 01:14:30.200 It's just this crazy season. 01:14:30.360 --> 01:14:32.500 Here's the question I want to land on. 01:14:33.060 --> 01:14:35.520 Um, there's newness here, right? 01:14:35.660 --> 01:14:37.420 So people are learning something new. 01:14:37.500 --> 01:14:38.880 Churches are learning something new. 01:14:38.940 --> 01:14:39.720 They're experimenting. 01:14:40.100 --> 01:14:42.360 They're doing things they haven't done before. 01:14:42.860 --> 01:14:48.060 Looking at this screen here, I want to say there's probably at least 50, if not 60 years 01:14:48.060 --> 01:14:51.760 worth of online ministry experience among all of us combined. 01:14:51.760 --> 01:14:55.520 I think the first online Bible study I taught was in the year 2000. 01:14:55.800 --> 01:14:57.340 So there's a lot here. 01:14:58.160 --> 01:14:59.460 What advice? 01:14:59.700 --> 01:15:03.040 Give me one piece of advice for churches out there. 01:15:03.320 --> 01:15:06.320 Um, topic, ranging, whatever up to you guys. 01:15:06.820 --> 01:15:08.700 Uh, one piece of advice or coaching. 01:15:08.840 --> 01:15:09.760 Uh, what do y'all have? 01:15:10.140 --> 01:15:14.520 I'll go, um, let me first work in, cause you said Kerry Newhoff, the magic word. 01:15:14.640 --> 01:15:16.760 I want to work in shameless plug number two. 01:15:17.400 --> 01:15:21.500 Kerry Newhoff is delivering a fresh brand new talk at the First Impressions Conference. 01:15:21.640 --> 01:15:24.000 He's a keynote speaker and you don't want to miss it. 01:15:24.040 --> 01:15:24.780 I've already seen it. 01:15:24.840 --> 01:15:25.540 It's very good. 01:15:26.040 --> 01:15:27.980 Uh, brand new, brand new talk. 01:15:28.440 --> 01:15:33.220 Hey, if we're doing shameless plugs, uh, there's a link in the show notes to sign up for 01:15:33.220 --> 01:15:33.780 the conference. 01:15:33.780 --> 01:15:35.080 So you can go ahead and do that. 01:15:35.080 --> 01:15:40.020 Click on that link and, um, the Church Digital may or may not get, uh, 01:15:40.020 --> 01:15:40.700 a piece of that. 01:15:40.760 --> 01:15:42.660 So please sign up through that link. 01:15:42.940 --> 01:15:44.080 We'll get your promo code. 01:15:44.640 --> 01:15:45.220 There you go. 01:15:45.280 --> 01:15:45.980 We're, we're all good. 01:15:46.060 --> 01:15:46.280 All right. 01:15:46.300 --> 01:15:47.060 Go ahead, Greg. 01:15:47.240 --> 01:15:50.720 But, um, Michael Todd, the man, Mike Todd. 01:15:51.220 --> 01:15:54.220 But, um, uh, here's, here's the thing. 01:15:54.400 --> 01:16:01.560 Um, I mentioned this book back here behind me, this orange, uh, it's 101,000 words, 388 01:16:01.560 --> 01:16:04.960 pages I wrote 10 years ago called Strange Leadership. 01:16:05.360 --> 01:16:09.840 It is a, um, it is a deep, 01:16:09.900 --> 01:16:17.460 deep, uh, study on the, the subject of innovation, 40 ways to lead an innovation, uh, innovative 01:16:17.460 --> 01:16:18.140 organization. 01:16:18.140 --> 01:16:19.540 And there's 40 chapters. 01:16:19.540 --> 01:16:24.100 That's why it's 388 pages, 40 ways to lead an innovative organization. 01:16:24.760 --> 01:16:29.840 And when I interviewed, uh, Life.Church and Larry Osborne and all these people that, that 01:16:29.840 --> 01:16:32.660 I've quoted in the book and, and that's the second edition. 01:16:32.660 --> 01:16:35.260 And this has been updated since 10 years ago. 01:16:35.260 --> 01:16:41.500 It's got, I talked about, um, Colin Kaepernick in this book and, and taking a knee and starting, 01:16:41.500 --> 01:16:43.300 there's a chapter called Revolution. 01:16:43.960 --> 01:16:46.060 And so, um, it's been, it's been updated. 01:16:46.060 --> 01:16:47.100 And so it's, it's current. 01:16:47.560 --> 01:16:54.600 However, um, one of the things that I, uh, you know, um, I think Ray mentioned Life.Church 01:16:54.600 --> 01:16:58.540 earlier, they'll do anything short of sin to reach people with the gospel. 01:16:58.760 --> 01:16:59.900 There's a mentality. 01:16:59.900 --> 01:17:04.760 Uh, I mentioned, I interviewed Bobby Greenwald for the First Impressions conference and I 01:17:04.760 --> 01:17:11.300 was asking him to kind of, um, um, what Jay was getting at earlier about the speed at which 01:17:11.300 --> 01:17:12.760 large churches move. 01:17:13.320 --> 01:17:17.300 And it's so hard when you're a large church to take a quick turn. 01:17:17.560 --> 01:17:24.560 And I was asking Bobby, because he's on that directional leadership team of five, how do you, 01:17:24.560 --> 01:17:32.720 a church, the size of Life.Church, how do you have the ability to turn on a dime and to be so 01:17:32.720 --> 01:17:35.760 nimble and quick with your decisions? 01:17:36.300 --> 01:17:41.900 And, and, um, and so there was a cool discussion there, but in the book, when I talk about this 01:17:41.900 --> 01:17:46.460 concept, there was a lot that I learned from studying Life.Church years ago, and that is 01:17:46.460 --> 01:17:48.820 basically, it's okay to fail. 01:17:49.560 --> 01:17:54.300 And so when you talk about, you know, leading up with this last question, we're going to fail. 01:17:54.840 --> 01:18:01.900 Uh, like Neil said in passing, second, second life was a bust, but still Life.Church had a 01:18:01.900 --> 01:18:04.560 whole campus there and you can walk in and worship. 01:18:04.860 --> 01:18:05.980 You're going to fail. 01:18:06.200 --> 01:18:10.520 You're going to fail, but, but keep, keep going, keep plowing ahead. 01:18:11.080 --> 01:18:15.800 Um, if your heart is right, we're going to take the good news of the gospel of Jesus Christ 01:18:15.800 --> 01:18:20.000 through the nations, and we're going to reach people at any cost, whatever it takes, just 01:18:20.000 --> 01:18:21.420 keep going, keep going. 01:18:21.680 --> 01:18:22.700 You're going to mess up. 01:18:22.760 --> 01:18:23.540 You're going to make mistakes. 01:18:23.600 --> 01:18:24.220 You're going to fall. 01:18:24.320 --> 01:18:25.000 You're going to fail. 01:18:25.340 --> 01:18:30.420 But all innovative companies, and that's what I reference in the book, all innovative 01:18:30.420 --> 01:18:36.260 businesses and organizations in the world have failed and have a culture. 01:18:36.260 --> 01:18:42.520 I talk, I have a chapter on this in the book that have a culture that encourages the freedom 01:18:42.520 --> 01:18:45.320 to fail and celebrates failure. 01:18:45.320 --> 01:18:53.160 I talk about a company that sends an employee on a vacation to Hawaii at the end of the year 01:18:53.160 --> 01:18:56.220 who had the biggest failure of the company. 01:18:57.020 --> 01:18:58.760 And so, um, you're going to fail. 01:18:58.940 --> 01:19:01.100 You're going to mess up, but keep pushing forward. 01:19:01.920 --> 01:19:03.160 I want a free trip to Hawaii. 01:19:03.740 --> 01:19:05.580 I can fail big, man. 01:19:05.820 --> 01:19:08.140 Like, let's, let's make that happen. 01:19:08.740 --> 01:19:10.540 Um, who, who am I going to talk to at Stadia? 01:19:10.680 --> 01:19:12.740 I wonder that we'll have to dig in. 01:19:13.040 --> 01:19:14.180 Google doesn't do that. 01:19:14.540 --> 01:19:15.340 Google does that. 01:19:15.420 --> 01:19:15.620 Yeah. 01:19:15.840 --> 01:19:16.560 They're one of those. 01:19:16.660 --> 01:19:23.000 Oh, that was such a, just niche joke that only for Nils, like it was like the Stadia 01:19:23.000 --> 01:19:24.420 gaming, nevermind. 01:19:24.600 --> 01:19:25.180 Oh, okay. 01:19:25.300 --> 01:19:26.480 I'll continue on. 01:19:26.940 --> 01:19:27.600 No, it's okay. 01:19:27.600 --> 01:19:28.340 I deserve it. 01:19:28.340 --> 01:19:31.760 Um, so, so I deserve that. 01:19:32.240 --> 01:19:37.420 Um, the, uh, clear, well, I honestly, it's on my mind because during the Laker game, they 01:19:37.420 --> 01:19:40.160 constantly show Stadia, uh, gaming commercial. 01:19:40.820 --> 01:19:46.560 Um, and so, uh, but I, so the thing I would kind of say is, and this is probably the boring 01:19:46.560 --> 01:19:55.120 thing to say, um, is I do think that for most churches, if you continue to figure out how 01:19:55.120 --> 01:20:01.500 to make online make sense for your local community, leadership will give you more to, to 01:20:01.500 --> 01:20:02.880 experiment for beyond. 01:20:03.080 --> 01:20:09.140 And, uh, and I, I have, I have found that I work at a church that is amazing and, and, 01:20:09.140 --> 01:20:13.340 and out there, but at the end of the day, we have to figure out how to make it work. 01:20:13.340 --> 01:20:18.120 And the more I've proven that I can be a good steward of those resources and make it make 01:20:18.120 --> 01:20:24.000 sense for our, our vision and our mission, the more freedom I've been given to go do 01:20:24.000 --> 01:20:25.500 things digital and different. 01:20:26.180 --> 01:20:30.080 Um, you know, I remember, I was, I remember doing for the first time, this was years ago, 01:20:30.080 --> 01:20:35.800 like jumping on a plane and doing a meetup, you know, thousands of miles away and meeting 01:20:35.800 --> 01:20:36.440 people in person. 01:20:36.520 --> 01:20:40.120 I remember other people on staff were asking me like, Jay, how are you going and doing this? 01:20:40.760 --> 01:20:46.580 And, and, and the, the short answer is, is that I, I, along with like leadership and a 01:20:46.580 --> 01:20:49.580 bunch of people, we had figured out how to make this work. 01:20:49.580 --> 01:20:53.640 And so it wasn't that I just day one said, give me a budget so I can get on a plane and 01:20:53.640 --> 01:20:54.140 go somewhere. 01:20:54.340 --> 01:20:57.340 It was, I kind of faithfully like figured this out. 01:20:57.420 --> 01:21:02.320 And so I think if you show, um, you know, I, I, the other thing is I think most churches 01:21:02.320 --> 01:21:07.620 should be running like a Facebook Instagram ad every week, even if it's like $10, I think 01:21:07.620 --> 01:21:09.120 like, that's not radical. 01:21:09.700 --> 01:21:12.080 This is stuff that's simple, like just do it. 01:21:12.080 --> 01:21:16.200 But at the end of the day, your leadership isn't going to say yes to that if they don't 01:21:16.200 --> 01:21:19.040 understand that online can lead back to your goals. 01:21:19.800 --> 01:21:24.960 So I think do the hard work of showing that online works for the local and beyond and your 01:21:24.960 --> 01:21:28.700 goals and the more you're going to have resources and people will do it. 01:21:28.780 --> 01:21:32.700 You know, not everybody is gifted to be like an Elon Musk or whatever. 01:21:32.700 --> 01:21:35.720 And they're just, and they, and they can get all the funding and do it. 01:21:35.820 --> 01:21:37.240 Most of us have to like prove ourselves. 01:21:37.240 --> 01:21:43.520 And so I think I do that and trust me, if, if, if, if you are faithful in that, people will 01:21:43.520 --> 01:21:44.520 see like, oh, wow. 01:21:44.740 --> 01:21:49.780 Um, I, this is why I tend to, I tend to lean heavy into local, uh, because I don't 01:21:49.800 --> 01:21:51.460 I'm already online and people know that. 01:21:51.620 --> 01:21:55.240 And so I have to over-communicate that just to show that I'm both like, I see the wins. 01:21:55.720 --> 01:21:59.900 Um, so I, I think for most churches, that's, that's somewhere I would start and figure out 01:21:59.900 --> 01:22:01.060 how online makes for local. 01:22:01.220 --> 01:22:05.500 And then trust me, if you do that well, the other doors will start opening and then you 01:22:05.500 --> 01:22:08.020 can kind of go do all the stuff that Niels is so great at doing. 01:22:09.620 --> 01:22:13.940 I, I'll, I'll just, uh, piggyback on what Jay was saying. 01:22:14.080 --> 01:22:18.000 And, and I think it's, and what I feel like I've said for years is just start. 01:22:18.460 --> 01:22:21.900 Um, and, and I think that it is, it is beyond that now though. 01:22:21.900 --> 01:22:23.880 And it's, it's keep leaning in. 01:22:24.000 --> 01:22:28.280 And so wherever you are from where you started, just keep leaning in. 01:22:28.280 --> 01:22:32.660 And I think you've got to lean into your mission first and, and you don't want to do virtual 01:22:32.660 --> 01:22:35.040 reality just for the sake of doing virtual reality. 01:22:35.040 --> 01:22:37.960 You want to do virtual reality because it aligns to your mission. 01:22:38.180 --> 01:22:40.380 You don't want to do Facebook for the sake of doing Facebook. 01:22:40.580 --> 01:22:44.180 You want to do Facebook for the sake of it aligning to your mission and you don't want 01:22:44.180 --> 01:22:46.120 to have a building for the sake of having a building. 01:22:46.240 --> 01:22:48.860 You want to have a building because it aligns to your mission. 01:22:49.060 --> 01:22:53.320 And so I think you lean into your mission, what God called you to do, uh, and you use 01:22:53.320 --> 01:22:58.740 the tools, uh, that he's given you and made available to us, uh, and, and to accomplish 01:22:58.740 --> 01:22:59.340 that mission. 01:22:59.580 --> 01:23:01.700 And, and I think it's pretty simple. 01:23:01.700 --> 01:23:07.180 And the great thing is I think I pay $12 a month for zoom and I can have unlimited zoom 01:23:07.180 --> 01:23:08.860 calls with up to 50 people. 01:23:09.020 --> 01:23:15.100 I think I pay zero for Facebook and I can reach unlimited people, you know, and I think 01:23:15.100 --> 01:23:18.120 you could pay $10 a month, which is cheaper than an old yellow pages ad. 01:23:18.360 --> 01:23:20.020 And you can reach a lot of people. 01:23:20.560 --> 01:23:25.260 Um, and so it, it really just seems like technology aligns to the mission of the church very 01:23:25.260 --> 01:23:26.840 significantly and keep leaning in. 01:23:26.840 --> 01:23:29.920 And, and I think what we're seeing in the season is, is there are churches that were 01:23:29.920 --> 01:23:34.280 trying to wait it out and those churches are probably either dead now, or they're going 01:23:34.280 --> 01:23:35.400 to be dead by the end of the year. 01:23:36.000 --> 01:23:41.560 Um, and, and those churches that leaned in like transformation church, when the physical 01:23:41.560 --> 01:23:46.000 gatherings come back, their physical gatherings are going to be 10 times as large and their 01:23:46.000 --> 01:23:49.160 online gatherings are going to be 20 times as large because they leaned in. 01:23:49.160 --> 01:23:53.820 And, uh, and I think just keep leaning in and the opportunities are only going to become 01:23:53.820 --> 01:23:54.540 more significant. 01:23:55.040 --> 01:23:57.660 Uh, and the technology is only going to get better. 01:23:57.660 --> 01:24:01.680 And I think as we are intentional about aligning it to our mission, we're going to, we're going 01:24:01.680 --> 01:24:02.200 to be good. 01:24:02.260 --> 01:24:05.400 Uh, but it's not technology for the sake of technology, just technology for the sake of 01:24:05.400 --> 01:24:05.800 the gospel. 01:24:06.200 --> 01:24:10.560 Uh, and when we lean into that, uh, I think we're going to see incredible fruits on that 01:24:10.560 --> 01:24:11.140 investment. 01:24:11.580 --> 01:24:12.120 Ray, what do you got? 01:24:12.180 --> 01:24:12.640 What are you thinking? 01:24:12.960 --> 01:24:16.900 Um, man, I love so much of what was said because Jeff, you know, there's so much we talked 01:24:16.900 --> 01:24:20.020 about, you know, kind of like what Jay and Niels and Greg were talking about in terms of starting 01:24:20.020 --> 01:24:21.240 and just kind of getting something going. 01:24:21.560 --> 01:24:24.580 But really, if I had to give somebody advice right now, I would tell them, Hey, your people 01:24:24.580 --> 01:24:25.320 are already online. 01:24:25.480 --> 01:24:27.420 I would just tell them like that. 01:24:27.420 --> 01:24:31.220 Uh, you know, you, you are, the world is already there. 01:24:31.640 --> 01:24:36.360 And so it's waiting for you to go out there and reach them for Christ. 01:24:36.460 --> 01:24:37.540 That's, that's what it is. 01:24:37.540 --> 01:24:40.680 And so, you know, you don't have to worry about innovating. 01:24:40.760 --> 01:24:42.080 You don't have to worry about breaking the bank. 01:24:42.080 --> 01:24:44.120 Like what Jay talked about, you don't have to worry about any of that stuff. 01:24:44.160 --> 01:24:45.980 You have to think about where your people are at right now. 01:24:46.000 --> 01:24:46.980 And your people are on Facebook. 01:24:47.080 --> 01:24:47.900 Your people are on YouTube. 01:24:47.940 --> 01:24:49.240 Your people are already on these channels. 01:24:49.560 --> 01:24:51.500 And so why not equip them? 01:24:51.720 --> 01:24:55.280 Why not go to where they're at and leverage these things for the sake of discipleship, 01:24:55.340 --> 01:24:58.120 for the sake of evangelism, for all these reasons. 01:24:58.620 --> 01:25:01.500 And then the other thing is, is don't worry about growing your church's influence. 01:25:01.780 --> 01:25:03.680 Worry about growing that community side of it. 01:25:04.000 --> 01:25:07.420 You know, I love how Jay was talking about how so many churches want to be a global church 01:25:07.420 --> 01:25:07.860 right now. 01:25:08.660 --> 01:25:12.400 And that's true, you know, and some for good and some for bad reasons for obvious things. 01:25:12.400 --> 01:25:15.680 But the big thing is, is that as church, we're supposed to be a community. 01:25:15.680 --> 01:25:16.880 We're supposed to be a big family. 01:25:17.400 --> 01:25:20.980 Part of my big fear in terms of where we're headed next is that there are so many little 01:25:20.980 --> 01:25:23.820 divisive things, especially online that are like kind of cracking us up, right? 01:25:23.860 --> 01:25:28.440 Like between politics and, you know, all sorts of other little arguments and squabbles and 01:25:28.440 --> 01:25:29.240 things that are going on. 01:25:29.300 --> 01:25:31.400 But what if digital was a way to keep the family together? 01:25:32.120 --> 01:25:33.280 What if it was that way? 01:25:33.340 --> 01:25:37.000 Even as we struggle with, well, you're reopening, but you're not reopening the way that I want 01:25:37.000 --> 01:25:37.320 you to. 01:25:37.860 --> 01:25:41.080 What if digital could be that way that we kind of kept the family together and said, okay, 01:25:41.080 --> 01:25:44.220 well, listen, I know it's not the way that you would prefer, but in the least, 01:25:44.300 --> 01:25:49.020 let's stay connected, let's stay in communication, let's stay in conversation, and let's continue 01:25:49.020 --> 01:25:50.400 to grow as a family down the road. 01:25:50.880 --> 01:25:54.600 Because that's what's important is that Jesus died for his church. 01:25:54.820 --> 01:25:58.180 And there's so much of that that needs to take place in the digital space. 01:25:59.680 --> 01:26:02.100 You know, I love, very beautiful. 01:26:02.320 --> 01:26:02.880 Love that. 01:26:03.000 --> 01:26:04.140 I love this group. 01:26:04.140 --> 01:26:11.540 And what I think intrigues me about this is all of us are intrinsically looking, and we 01:26:11.540 --> 01:26:16.380 all have expertise and experience in this idea of online ministry, digital church, whatever 01:26:16.380 --> 01:26:17.300 you want to call it. 01:26:17.420 --> 01:26:21.560 But we all have different kind of spins and takes on it. 01:26:21.960 --> 01:26:28.640 Nils is very futuristic, kind of in mindset, falls on the technology, and has experience kind 01:26:28.640 --> 01:26:29.420 of in those worlds. 01:26:29.420 --> 01:26:33.420 I still don't understand the whole money thing, but we'll get there one day, maybe. 01:26:33.420 --> 01:26:40.840 You know, Jay is grounded through Saddleback in the physical to digital online, excuse me, 01:26:40.920 --> 01:26:44.320 digital to physical, online to offline kind of theories. 01:26:44.600 --> 01:26:47.240 And so that doesn't hold him back necessarily. 01:26:47.360 --> 01:26:52.240 I don't mean to say that, but it's very much implemented where physical has a part in that. 01:26:52.320 --> 01:26:56.140 So let digital drive to some of those physical interactions. 01:26:56.780 --> 01:27:03.180 Greg, one of my favorite parts of this podcast was Greg talking about the idea of pastoring 01:27:03.180 --> 01:27:08.840 and having that hospitality piece and caring for people as an individual. 01:27:08.840 --> 01:27:14.240 And that's shown through his life and ministry and a lot of the things that he's doing. 01:27:14.240 --> 01:27:19.580 And so we're all specialists in this one area, but there's little niches. 01:27:19.960 --> 01:27:25.300 I said niches within and don't get mad at me, but niches that we're kind of working in. 01:27:25.520 --> 01:27:30.220 Like some of the things that I'm working on, on the digital side with this, that, you know, 01:27:30.340 --> 01:27:33.320 two years ago, five years ago, people thought I was crazy. 01:27:33.320 --> 01:27:36.420 And I got inspired evidently by a Clay Scroggins, 01:27:36.500 --> 01:27:38.960 Kerry Newhoff podcast towards the idea of digital church planning. 01:27:39.220 --> 01:27:43.040 I got to get Clay on the show now because he evidently was a guy who was instrumental in my life. 01:27:43.120 --> 01:27:43.580 Sorry, Nils. 01:27:43.780 --> 01:27:45.280 I no longer give you credit for that. 01:27:45.900 --> 01:27:50.840 But there's opportunities and there's things that we, the church, we haven't thought of yet. 01:27:51.480 --> 01:27:58.240 And I think so much we've lived, I've lived in this fear of, okay, I got to fit in this box. 01:27:58.660 --> 01:27:59.900 I don't want to rock the boat. 01:28:00.180 --> 01:28:02.300 I can't ask these questions too hard. 01:28:02.300 --> 01:28:04.920 There's no one around me that agrees with me. 01:28:05.000 --> 01:28:06.980 So therefore I must be wrong. 01:28:08.000 --> 01:28:17.040 And honestly, I lived in that box, in that cell, in that prison cell virtually for a long time 01:28:17.040 --> 01:28:22.180 thinking, okay, I just can't find the church that agrees with me. 01:28:22.460 --> 01:28:28.240 I'm just going to give up and come to find out there are people who thought that way. 01:28:28.380 --> 01:28:29.280 There are opportunities. 01:28:30.040 --> 01:28:32.880 God is doing ministry through some of these unique ways. 01:28:33.620 --> 01:28:35.760 And so let's continue on and explore. 01:28:36.040 --> 01:28:40.480 The churches that don't agree with me, it's just a different model. 01:28:40.720 --> 01:28:41.340 It's not good. 01:28:41.420 --> 01:28:41.900 It's not bad. 01:28:41.980 --> 01:28:43.520 They just don't agree. 01:28:44.380 --> 01:28:49.820 And so for the churches out there, I'd say experiment, learn, try something different. 01:28:50.020 --> 01:28:52.620 Fire BBs before bullets before cannonballs. 01:28:53.220 --> 01:28:54.760 Test some of this stuff out. 01:28:55.480 --> 01:28:59.380 Just as we're landing the plane here, there's been all sorts of self-promotion, I think, 01:28:59.440 --> 01:29:01.560 coming out of Greg, which has been awesome. 01:29:01.720 --> 01:29:02.120 Love that. 01:29:02.220 --> 01:29:05.640 Love helping you guys get connected and moving forward with things. 01:29:05.720 --> 01:29:06.580 That's why I'm here. 01:29:07.040 --> 01:29:10.200 But maybe how can people get connected with you? 01:29:10.260 --> 01:29:13.180 I know all of you are doing intricate things. 01:29:13.500 --> 01:29:16.300 So Jay, how can people get connected to you? 01:29:16.380 --> 01:29:17.140 What's going on? 01:29:17.400 --> 01:29:20.540 Like how, what are all the resources you're helping for the church today? 01:29:21.820 --> 01:29:26.040 Yeah, I mean, I, first off, Greg is promoting resources, free resources. 01:29:26.320 --> 01:29:29.720 I mean, come on, most of them, you know, and some of them paid or worth it. 01:29:29.760 --> 01:29:30.820 So that's a good thing. 01:29:31.960 --> 01:29:36.260 I, I don't know, Instagram for me, Jay Cranda. 01:29:37.500 --> 01:29:42.160 I, I, I'm very much, you know, I just like to share what I'm learning. 01:29:42.440 --> 01:29:48.620 And so I don't get to spend as much time on it as I like to, but I definitely check out 01:29:48.620 --> 01:29:50.560 my Instagram account or jaycranda.com. 01:29:50.560 --> 01:29:54.000 And I would love to point you in the right direction. 01:29:54.080 --> 01:29:59.540 There's so many cool, there's so many amazing people creating amazing resources out there. 01:29:59.700 --> 01:30:03.460 And so, and I think what's important is finding something, uh, you can learn something from 01:30:03.460 --> 01:30:04.400 just about everybody. 01:30:04.780 --> 01:30:09.500 Um, but you know, go out there, you know, I think about when I started in this role, there 01:30:09.500 --> 01:30:11.380 weren't that many people I could go to. 01:30:11.500 --> 01:30:12.060 It was Niels. 01:30:12.240 --> 01:30:15.980 It was, I remember, I, I remember I couldn't even get ahold of Brandon at Life Church. 01:30:16.100 --> 01:30:20.360 I remember I tried to reach out to him, um, because they were growing like crazy at that 01:30:20.360 --> 01:30:20.680 time. 01:30:20.680 --> 01:30:23.200 And I just think now, like there's so many cool things. 01:30:23.280 --> 01:30:24.800 So go research. 01:30:24.800 --> 01:30:30.580 There's no reason why you should start to expand your digital experience and not be informed. 01:30:30.820 --> 01:30:35.620 There's so many things you can just, you know, I, I, I've, I've been experiencing this the 01:30:35.620 --> 01:30:36.720 last couple of weeks. 01:30:36.720 --> 01:30:40.000 I just started to, I just started to, after like 10 years skateboard again. 01:30:41.020 --> 01:30:43.240 And, um, one of my kids wanted to do it. 01:30:43.340 --> 01:30:44.500 So I bought him a skateboard. 01:30:44.880 --> 01:30:49.340 Well, I was thinking back when I started skateboarding, you know, YouTube wasn't around. 01:30:49.480 --> 01:30:51.180 I had to just learn it from my friends. 01:30:51.180 --> 01:30:56.860 And I was like, there was a trick I never learned was a, uh, a tray flip or a 360 flip. 01:30:57.280 --> 01:31:00.960 Um, and I'm like, I think I can learn this thing now because I could go watch a YouTube 01:31:00.960 --> 01:31:03.380 video and figure out how to do it all. 01:31:03.380 --> 01:31:06.360 And so I, my goal is over the next couple of weeks is to learn it. 01:31:06.740 --> 01:31:07.740 And I was like, how cool is that? 01:31:07.760 --> 01:31:09.680 Like 10 years of not touching a skateboard. 01:31:10.020 --> 01:31:10.920 I think I could figure this out. 01:31:10.980 --> 01:31:13.720 Well, it's because I could go to this amazing resource. 01:31:13.720 --> 01:31:17.600 And I think in the community, you go to the conferences that Greg puts on, check out Neil 01:31:17.600 --> 01:31:21.740 stuff, listen to this podcast, check out stuff I'm going on and take what makes sense. 01:31:21.740 --> 01:31:26.340 And I, you just, you have such a cool way to launch from a better space that most of us 01:31:26.340 --> 01:31:27.060 got to launch from. 01:31:27.560 --> 01:31:30.520 Now watch that video of the skateboarding with your son. 01:31:31.080 --> 01:31:31.760 That was cool. 01:31:32.100 --> 01:31:32.380 Thanks. 01:31:32.380 --> 01:31:32.700 That was cool. 01:31:32.840 --> 01:31:33.520 I was impressed. 01:31:34.700 --> 01:31:37.240 And let's, let's give credit to Jay's YouTube. 01:31:37.460 --> 01:31:38.380 I'll, I'll just be honest. 01:31:38.480 --> 01:31:46.980 The, the NFL, NL, NBA video, what church is your, um, like Nils, I'm pretty sure I even 01:31:46.980 --> 01:31:48.880 heard you talk about that on your podcast. 01:31:48.880 --> 01:31:52.680 I think recently, like it was, it was a phenomenal episode. 01:31:53.000 --> 01:31:55.220 So legend, legend. 01:31:55.360 --> 01:31:55.480 Yeah. 01:31:55.480 --> 01:31:57.340 He's, he's, he's, he's underselling himself. 01:31:57.500 --> 01:32:01.840 Well, Hey, Hey, I'm glad the 180 people that saw it, enjoyed it. 01:32:02.300 --> 01:32:03.000 179. 01:32:03.000 --> 01:32:05.400 I watched it twice to be fair, but, but still. 01:32:05.700 --> 01:32:09.700 Jeff, uh, the first impression, when I talk about the first impressions conference, that's 01:32:09.700 --> 01:32:13.240 just because I believe it's relative and it can help, but I'm not a speaker. 01:32:13.240 --> 01:32:18.220 I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I try to stay behind the scenes, kind of always look 01:32:18.220 --> 01:32:21.080 at like, uh, Brad Lamanick or how he used to be with catalyst. 01:32:21.080 --> 01:32:26.480 I'm just behind the scenes, pulling the levers, making it happen, but I'm not, I don't, uh, 01:32:26.480 --> 01:32:31.260 I don't speak at it myself, but, but the, um, the way you can find me and get in touch with 01:32:31.260 --> 01:32:33.240 me would be through Facebook, Twitter, Instagram. 01:32:33.680 --> 01:32:39.440 And then, um, I have two, uh, Facebook groups that total about 22,000 people. 01:32:39.440 --> 01:32:46.080 And so connect with me there because I can put more of myself into a Facebook group where 01:32:46.080 --> 01:32:50.860 I interact with tens of thousands at once, as opposed to one-on-one emails or one-on-one 01:32:50.860 --> 01:32:52.820 zoom calls or one-on-one phone calls. 01:32:53.060 --> 01:32:57.080 And so find me at the weekend worship and guest services, Facebook group. 01:32:57.200 --> 01:33:02.320 I know Jeff is active there and I've had Jeff do a Facebook live in the group before, and 01:33:02.320 --> 01:33:06.940 it's still in the group that you can go back and, and watch, but that's the best way to 01:33:06.940 --> 01:33:12.760 interact with me where you will see me type back and respond because I comment and interact 01:33:12.760 --> 01:33:13.940 in the Facebook group. 01:33:14.040 --> 01:33:16.340 And so weekend worship and guest services. 01:33:17.620 --> 01:33:18.460 That's awesome. 01:33:18.580 --> 01:33:19.840 And incredible resources. 01:33:19.960 --> 01:33:22.000 I've loved the, the weekend worship guest services. 01:33:22.460 --> 01:33:25.820 Your assimilation one, I forget the language of that one. 01:33:25.920 --> 01:33:27.420 That kind of, the new one. 01:33:27.920 --> 01:33:28.420 Yeah. 01:33:29.820 --> 01:33:35.380 And so it, that's, it's, uh, incredible community centered around that and the ability to engage 01:33:35.380 --> 01:33:38.640 with people who are asking questions and safe spaces for them to dig in. 01:33:39.120 --> 01:33:40.440 That's, that's awesome. 01:33:40.760 --> 01:33:44.440 So, um, Nils, what, what you're all over the place too. 01:33:44.560 --> 01:33:46.660 So, so how can people keep up with you? 01:33:47.280 --> 01:33:49.560 So you could probably just Google my name. 01:33:49.560 --> 01:33:55.340 Uh, and I, because it's Nilsmith and there's only not like three of us in the world, it's 01:33:55.340 --> 01:33:55.960 a little easier. 01:33:56.120 --> 01:33:59.180 Uh, so N-I-L-S, S-M-I-T-H or Nilsmith.com. 01:33:59.300 --> 01:33:59.980 Oh, there's not a Z. 01:34:00.340 --> 01:34:01.740 I always thought there was a Z at the end. 01:34:01.820 --> 01:34:02.660 It would, it would help. 01:34:02.740 --> 01:34:05.700 You know, actually if I had two L's, I get Niles a ton. 01:34:06.180 --> 01:34:10.760 Uh, cause if you see like my mom's like, it's Pills, Hills, Thrills, Nils, and I'm like, 01:34:10.760 --> 01:34:12.940 do you see something in common with the other ills? 01:34:13.660 --> 01:34:15.220 Uh, but they didn't give me two L's. 01:34:15.340 --> 01:34:16.120 It's a Swedish name. 01:34:16.360 --> 01:34:20.840 Um, and, um, it's, I've just dealt with it my whole life and that's obnoxious. 01:34:20.980 --> 01:34:26.360 So Nilsmith.com, I'm Nilsmith on Twitter, Instagram, all of those things. 01:34:26.420 --> 01:34:31.240 And, uh, social media church podcast is the other thing that you can go social media.church. 01:34:31.920 --> 01:34:32.760 Um, yeah. 01:34:33.840 --> 01:34:34.240 Awesome. 01:34:34.580 --> 01:34:37.160 Hey, Nils, thank you for, for jumping on this. 01:34:37.220 --> 01:34:37.780 Glad, no, I'm kidding. 01:34:37.880 --> 01:34:38.080 Sorry. 01:34:38.140 --> 01:34:40.300 That was, that was a very bad joke there. 01:34:40.560 --> 01:34:40.960 Awesome. 01:34:41.100 --> 01:34:44.280 And so Ray, Ray's at the church digital social media. 01:34:44.340 --> 01:34:45.360 Ray, you want to talk about anything there? 01:34:46.160 --> 01:34:50.580 No, I enjoy writing for, for the blog and doing a lot of experimenting here with Jeff and, 01:34:50.580 --> 01:34:52.600 and just all sorts of things that we've got going on. 01:34:52.600 --> 01:34:57.520 And really the big thing that's kind of coming up is, uh, is kind of the short style of show 01:34:57.520 --> 01:34:58.920 that we're going to think Jeff and I are going to be doing. 01:34:59.020 --> 01:34:59.400 That's pretty cool. 01:34:59.460 --> 01:34:59.960 It's called beta. 01:35:00.100 --> 01:35:02.740 And so we're going to be basically, basically we're going to be taking things like this and 01:35:02.740 --> 01:35:06.620 we're going to be doing short 15 minute episodes, answering people's questions, uh, taking 01:35:06.620 --> 01:35:10.420 them by text, by social media, any, which way that's the big thing. 01:35:10.460 --> 01:35:12.640 So if you're listening to this show and if you're like, man, how can I get a little 01:35:12.640 --> 01:35:16.680 more practical beta is coming out soon and make sure to text us, reach out to us 01:35:16.680 --> 01:35:18.100 and let us know how we can help you. 01:35:19.280 --> 01:35:19.600 Awesome. 01:35:20.140 --> 01:35:20.740 Love that. 01:35:20.740 --> 01:35:24.900 And while we're having this conversation, Jay Cranda is tweeting out about Roblox going 01:35:24.900 --> 01:35:25.280 public. 01:35:25.280 --> 01:35:29.540 And I totally want to have that conversation because my kids are addicted to Roblox, but 01:35:29.540 --> 01:35:33.240 we've been going too long, so I don't want to touch it, but we're going to come back to 01:35:33.240 --> 01:35:39.960 that because Roblox and those, I mean, that's when I look at this MMO stuff and these, these 01:35:39.960 --> 01:35:42.780 communities that are digital communities that are existing as communities. 01:35:43.180 --> 01:35:44.840 This is where I see the next movement. 01:35:44.840 --> 01:35:46.580 And maybe that's a radical concept. 01:35:46.760 --> 01:35:50.180 And some traditionalists out there is now freaking out on me right now. 01:35:50.180 --> 01:35:51.020 It's just the concept. 01:35:51.580 --> 01:35:55.440 But I mean, I'm looking at things like the Robloxian Christians where a 12 year old kid 01:35:55.440 --> 01:35:58.420 is creating a church and reaching tens of thousands of people. 01:35:58.420 --> 01:36:01.520 And I'm saying, why can't we do something like this? 01:36:01.580 --> 01:36:06.620 By the way, that kid is now 20 and is doing a phenomenal job, even still with it and trying 01:36:06.620 --> 01:36:07.640 to transition on. 01:36:07.720 --> 01:36:11.600 And it's just some phenomenal stories, even in context of Roblox. 01:36:11.720 --> 01:36:16.460 But that's a whole other podcast and we need to land a plane here on episode 100. 01:36:16.460 --> 01:36:23.620 So gentlemen, thank you for jumping on this and spending time with me. 01:36:23.720 --> 01:36:29.460 I remember walking into that Starbucks and I'm like, I knew Jay kind of a little bit. 01:36:29.500 --> 01:36:33.100 I don't even think I had met you much, Jay, physically at that point. 01:36:33.160 --> 01:36:36.060 It was just emails and phone and Zoom. 01:36:36.620 --> 01:36:43.200 But to be able to engage and kind of dialogue in that season and even beyond that, all four 01:36:43.200 --> 01:36:44.860 of you have been instrumental. 01:36:45.020 --> 01:36:45.880 So thank you. 01:36:46.380 --> 01:36:49.520 This has been an awesome podcast and looking forward to many more. 01:36:49.880 --> 01:36:53.680 I'll bring you back at, you know, a thousand when we're all episode 1000. 01:36:53.860 --> 01:36:55.920 We're all retired out of the game. 01:36:56.100 --> 01:36:59.880 And well, except, you know, Jay, because Jay will still look like he's like, you know, 01:37:00.420 --> 01:37:00.560 30. 01:37:00.560 --> 01:37:05.660 This kind of feels like a John Gruber episode, like how like their podcasts are like crazy 01:37:05.660 --> 01:37:11.360 long, you know, like, and it's just, it's like hanging out or I guess a Joe Rogan podcast. 01:37:12.360 --> 01:37:12.720 Yeah. 01:37:12.900 --> 01:37:14.400 Hey, can I go for our one? 01:37:14.680 --> 01:37:19.860 Nobody listens to, I know probably we listen to the Gruber, but like the Joe Rogan podcast, 01:37:19.880 --> 01:37:20.600 Joe Rogan's more hip. 01:37:21.100 --> 01:37:24.840 But before Jeff ends it, I want to give a shout out to Pushpay for that conference that 01:37:24.840 --> 01:37:26.060 we all kind of attended together. 01:37:26.060 --> 01:37:27.840 And, and also just a small plead. 01:37:27.840 --> 01:37:33.140 If you ever want to take us all back to California to reunite, you know, over, over coffee and 01:37:33.140 --> 01:37:34.040 Disneyland, please do. 01:37:34.120 --> 01:37:34.700 Do a panel. 01:37:35.200 --> 01:37:36.720 I think that's a great idea, man. 01:37:36.780 --> 01:37:38.480 We should, we should figure out how to make that happen. 01:37:38.580 --> 01:37:39.880 Have Stadia sponsor it. 01:37:40.420 --> 01:37:42.060 We'll do a live panel Q&A. 01:37:42.880 --> 01:37:43.280 Yeah. 01:37:44.540 --> 01:37:46.000 I'm having that conversation. 01:37:46.500 --> 01:37:49.640 Of course, you know, I got to get all the way through to Google and that may take some 01:37:49.640 --> 01:37:51.520 time, but we'll, we'll figure out how to navigate that. 01:37:51.700 --> 01:37:52.800 So, all right. 01:37:53.000 --> 01:37:54.540 Hey, I am going to land the plane. 01:37:54.600 --> 01:37:58.760 Cause I'm actually supposed to be at an appointment in nine minutes in the places like 30 minutes 01:37:58.760 --> 01:37:59.020 away. 01:37:59.660 --> 01:38:04.260 So I'm going to, I'm going to, unless you want me to like leave my own podcast and you 01:38:04.260 --> 01:38:05.260 guys can keep talking. 01:38:05.360 --> 01:38:08.300 Actually, that might be interesting, but no, I'm not going to do that. 01:38:08.360 --> 01:38:13.020 We're going to wrap right here for, oh my gosh, there's a lot of names here on the screen 01:38:13.020 --> 01:38:16.060 for, for Jay, for Nils, for Greg, for Ray. 01:38:16.140 --> 01:38:19.580 This is Jeff at the Church Digital wrapping up episode 100. 01:38:19.840 --> 01:38:20.760 Here's to the next hundred. 01:38:21.200 --> 01:38:24.960 Thanks for jumping on, on the pod here and we'll see you next time here at the show. 01:38:25.120 --> 01:38:26.800 Y'all have a good day.