WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:01.960 All right, we've got episode 101 00:00:01.960 --> 00:00:04.480 of the Church Digital Podcast powered once again 00:00:04.480 --> 00:00:05.940 by Stadia Church Planting. 00:00:06.040 --> 00:00:06.540 It's kind of nice. 00:00:06.640 --> 00:00:08.960 We're in three figures now, 101. 00:00:10.040 --> 00:00:12.460 We celebrated episode 100 last week. 00:00:12.560 --> 00:00:15.520 Phenomenal episode, packed guest list. 00:00:16.100 --> 00:00:18.640 And so lots of content there to process 00:00:18.640 --> 00:00:20.420 and celebrations to be a part of. 00:00:20.480 --> 00:00:21.640 Listening audience, thank you. 00:00:22.000 --> 00:00:23.980 But let's move on to what's ahead. 00:00:24.100 --> 00:00:27.040 Hey, we launched a new show here at the Church Digital. 00:00:27.040 --> 00:00:29.060 It's called Beta, the Beta Show. 00:00:29.200 --> 00:00:31.460 And so we are answering your questions. 00:00:31.620 --> 00:00:33.480 The show debuts on social media Wednesday. 00:00:34.020 --> 00:00:35.660 We put it on podcast Thursday. 00:00:36.320 --> 00:00:38.620 And so check it out, the Beta Show. 00:00:38.740 --> 00:00:41.700 There's information at thechurch.digital on it. 00:00:42.100 --> 00:00:45.240 Or really what I'd love what you can do right now 00:00:45.240 --> 00:00:48.380 for me listening audience out there, text me questions. 00:00:48.520 --> 00:00:50.020 What do you have on social media? 00:00:50.280 --> 00:00:50.900 What do you have? 00:00:51.120 --> 00:00:53.920 What questions do you have right now in your church 00:00:53.920 --> 00:00:55.320 in online ministry? 00:00:55.320 --> 00:00:56.720 What are you struggling with? 00:00:56.840 --> 00:00:58.580 What's the biggest challenge to overcome? 00:00:59.120 --> 00:01:00.200 Let me know. 00:01:00.700 --> 00:01:03.580 Text us 484-324-8724. 00:01:03.840 --> 00:01:05.980 If you speak telephone alphabet, that's number four, 00:01:06.360 --> 00:01:09.980 the church, 484-324-8724. 00:01:10.320 --> 00:01:11.580 We'd love to get those questions. 00:01:11.660 --> 00:01:15.160 And we may even answer them here on the Beta Show, 00:01:15.300 --> 00:01:18.100 one of the episodes we have coming up in the coming weeks. 00:01:18.580 --> 00:01:19.020 Let's segue. 00:01:19.240 --> 00:01:21.280 Let's get back to 101 here. 00:01:21.380 --> 00:01:22.520 I love this episode. 00:01:22.660 --> 00:01:23.660 I love this man. 00:01:23.780 --> 00:01:24.820 I'm not ashamed to say it. 00:01:25.120 --> 00:01:30.740 Jim Tomberlin, Chief of Staff, Christ Fellowship Miami, Multisite Solutions, Unstuck Group. 00:01:30.740 --> 00:01:34.980 Jim Tomberlin impacted my life before I even breathed the same air molecules, 00:01:35.080 --> 00:01:37.540 before I even was in the same room with him. 00:01:37.780 --> 00:01:42.240 As one of the early pioneers of Multisite Solutions, of Multisite Church, 00:01:42.340 --> 00:01:45.460 one of these OG guys in the Multisite movement, 00:01:46.180 --> 00:01:52.260 Jim was really pioneering in some areas and really experimenting with this new idea of Multisite 00:01:52.260 --> 00:01:55.820 Church maybe 20 years ago, even previous to that. 00:01:56.660 --> 00:02:02.480 And from afar, I loved watching some of his mind space that he was sharing back in the day on 00:02:02.480 --> 00:02:07.020 Twitter before Twitter was like the minefield it is now, when he was blogging back when like 00:02:07.020 --> 00:02:13.660 blogging was cool, like when he was generating all of this content, helping churches go Multisite. 00:02:14.160 --> 00:02:19.240 And at another level, I got to tell you, as I've shifted into this new role here with Stadia 00:02:19.240 --> 00:02:25.400 and even the Church Digital before then, helping churches go digital, helping churches go online, 00:02:26.000 --> 00:02:27.720 it's been a phenomenal relationship. 00:02:28.180 --> 00:02:32.180 And just to have a, honestly, a mentor like Jim, we're not engaging all the time, 00:02:32.440 --> 00:02:36.300 but when we do talk, it's phenomenal the insight that we get out of it. 00:02:36.340 --> 00:02:40.940 So of course, 101, I'm like, hey, let's get Jim back in the show here and let's talk about some 00:02:40.940 --> 00:02:45.920 things, Multisite Church, Mergers, Digital Church, Fidgetal Church, where are we going 00:02:45.920 --> 00:02:46.980 with all this thing? 00:02:47.060 --> 00:02:48.720 Jim, what are you thinking? 00:02:49.520 --> 00:02:53.540 And so we're bringing into this conversation, we're bringing in Jim Tomberlin, Multisite 00:02:53.540 --> 00:02:59.920 Solutions, Multisite Guy, Chief of Staff with Christ Fellowship Miami, Unstuck Group, so 00:02:59.920 --> 00:03:00.680 many hats. 00:03:01.020 --> 00:03:04.860 We're bringing in Ray DeArmis, Digital Pastor, Christ Fellowship Miami co-host here, of course, 00:03:04.940 --> 00:03:07.880 bringing in myself, Jeff with the Church Digital and Stadia Church Planning. 00:03:07.940 --> 00:03:14.620 In an episode here, 101, that I'm really simply calling the key to the next Digital Church 00:03:14.620 --> 00:03:15.480 Frontier. 00:03:16.120 --> 00:03:17.400 Okay, everybody, here you go. 00:03:17.640 --> 00:03:22.380 Hey, well, it's great to be back with you, Jeff, and Ray, appreciate how you're leading 00:03:22.380 --> 00:03:25.040 in this whole digital church movement, and it's not new to you. 00:03:25.420 --> 00:03:31.520 It's been, what, five plus seven years, maybe, that you really led Christ Fellowship into the 00:03:31.520 --> 00:03:38.120 digital space, and we've been building on that ever since, so, and your podcasts are 00:03:38.120 --> 00:03:43.900 riveting, and you guys are becoming the voice, one of the key voices in this digital church 00:03:43.900 --> 00:03:44.220 movement. 00:03:44.640 --> 00:03:50.940 But my background, hey, I'm in my fourth plus decade of being in pastoral church work and 00:03:50.940 --> 00:03:57.000 still loving it, and I get the chance now to help other churches have for the last 15 years 00:03:57.000 --> 00:04:02.900 as a consultant in the multi-site merger movements, and that's what led me here to Christ Fellowship 00:04:02.900 --> 00:04:07.620 as a consultant, and now serving as a chief of staff for the last three years. 00:04:07.720 --> 00:04:13.040 It was supposed to be six months, but three years later, plus, still in this game here at 00:04:13.040 --> 00:04:17.240 Christ Fellowship and following behind you guys in terms of the work you've been doing 00:04:17.240 --> 00:04:18.740 in the digital church space. 00:04:19.600 --> 00:04:20.220 That's awesome. 00:04:20.360 --> 00:04:21.700 Let's just even back up. 00:04:22.300 --> 00:04:23.880 You're in your fourth plus decade. 00:04:24.680 --> 00:04:26.080 What's the secret to that? 00:04:26.360 --> 00:04:26.940 Like, I don't know. 00:04:27.000 --> 00:04:27.480 I look around. 00:04:27.560 --> 00:04:28.900 I see people getting burned out. 00:04:29.260 --> 00:04:31.320 I see people getting alienated with ministry. 00:04:31.980 --> 00:04:34.880 Four decades, so that's like, what, since the 80s? 00:04:35.160 --> 00:04:36.620 Like, what's the secret to that? 00:04:36.880 --> 00:04:39.720 Even a little before that, so, but I don't know. 00:04:39.760 --> 00:04:48.380 I think I've never fully recovered from the redemption that I experienced in Christ as a teenager, 00:04:49.160 --> 00:04:53.400 and I'm just so grateful to get to do what I do. 00:04:53.640 --> 00:04:55.660 I feel a real strong sense of calling. 00:04:55.660 --> 00:05:03.120 I have an incredible wife who has that same sense of calling as well, and we have just been 00:05:03.120 --> 00:05:07.200 able to love the church in spite of all of its humanity. 00:05:08.020 --> 00:05:12.500 And, of course, that's what the Bible teaches us, that, you know, humanity is broken and 00:05:12.500 --> 00:05:18.380 the need of forgiveness and redemption, and so churches are full of broken people who need 00:05:18.380 --> 00:05:22.640 forgiveness and redemption, and I'm just glad to be a part of that process in my own life 00:05:22.640 --> 00:05:24.500 and helping others in their journey as well. 00:05:24.500 --> 00:05:31.640 And I still believe the local church is the hope of the world and have given my life to 00:05:31.640 --> 00:05:36.540 the greatest message and purpose that I think a person can give their life to. 00:05:36.720 --> 00:05:43.260 So I'm still grateful to be serving and being able to bring, hopefully, some help to some 00:05:43.260 --> 00:05:46.860 folks along the way in the work of the church. 00:05:47.540 --> 00:05:49.100 Man, hopefully that's inspirational. 00:05:49.380 --> 00:05:55.360 Just even for me, a guy who's done 15 years of church staff, and I joke here on the show, 00:05:55.460 --> 00:05:59.340 like I've never stayed at any one location longer than five years before. 00:05:59.460 --> 00:06:02.380 It's like, okay, it's time to go and just kind of move on, move on, move on. 00:06:02.940 --> 00:06:08.360 Somebody like you, yeah, you've had different roles in different parts, but 40 years on physical 00:06:08.360 --> 00:06:14.460 church staffs, outside through your organization, supporting church staffs from within, consulting, 00:06:15.100 --> 00:06:15.960 being part of that. 00:06:16.100 --> 00:06:21.200 Honestly, just me looking from the outside, that's inspirational to see somebody who's dedicated 00:06:21.200 --> 00:06:23.980 40 years of their life to the church. 00:06:23.980 --> 00:06:28.080 So, you know, even up front, hey, thanks for the service of that. 00:06:28.220 --> 00:06:29.620 Thanks for contributing. 00:06:30.120 --> 00:06:34.840 Thanks for helping the bride of Christ in this season. 00:06:35.240 --> 00:06:37.460 And thanks for investing. 00:06:37.880 --> 00:06:44.960 Even Jim, like you were influential in my life before you and I even like met through multi-site 00:06:44.960 --> 00:06:50.840 guy, through multi-site solutions, blogs back in the day, and just really being one of those 00:06:50.840 --> 00:06:53.060 loud voices, I want to thank you. 00:06:53.200 --> 00:06:58.520 And we've had this conversation before because even before I knew you, I felt like I knew 00:06:58.520 --> 00:07:02.440 you and you were having ministry influence on my life. 00:07:02.560 --> 00:07:08.420 So thanks for that, you know, even up front, which is why I love having conversations like 00:07:08.420 --> 00:07:13.040 this because, you know, I'm listening to you on a Kerry Newhoff podcast and you say the 00:07:13.040 --> 00:07:15.560 word fidgetal and I'm screaming up and down. 00:07:15.660 --> 00:07:16.640 Yes, yes, yes. 00:07:16.640 --> 00:07:21.340 Like he's, he's got it and he said it on Kerry Newhoff and we're getting it out there. 00:07:21.340 --> 00:07:27.420 And I'm understanding more of like this, you know, COVID, COVID's a thing. 00:07:27.420 --> 00:07:34.340 And as much as we at the church want to go back to February 2020 and pretend like, you 00:07:34.340 --> 00:07:35.560 know, nothing happened. 00:07:36.120 --> 00:07:40.640 A, I don't think we're actually going to be able to go back because I don't think February 00:07:40.640 --> 00:07:47.580 2020 exists anymore in culture and B, I kind of find it funny that churches want to go back 00:07:47.580 --> 00:07:53.060 to February 2020 because February 2020 was not a great time in context of ministry. 00:07:53.260 --> 00:07:56.160 And so I, you're the, you're the multi-site guy. 00:07:56.280 --> 00:08:00.900 You're the, you're the merger guy, you know, and there's, there's books that, that, that 00:08:00.900 --> 00:08:01.780 you've, you've written on this. 00:08:01.800 --> 00:08:06.960 And I want to have some of those conversations, but I'm just curious, like from a multi-site 00:08:06.960 --> 00:08:11.780 perspective, uh, what, what are we learning? 00:08:12.140 --> 00:08:17.300 What is the church learning, uh, mid COVID coming out of this post COVID? 00:08:17.540 --> 00:08:20.660 I'm hearing some rumors that, that maybe multi-sites dead. 00:08:20.780 --> 00:08:23.240 I'm seeing some churches that are kind of struggling with this. 00:08:23.520 --> 00:08:28.440 Like what's, what's the multi-site perspective now, uh, mid post COVID? 00:08:29.400 --> 00:08:30.780 It's a great question, Jeff. 00:08:30.940 --> 00:08:37.520 Uh, I, I, when this COVID hit us, I went back and, and reviewed an article I published with 00:08:37.520 --> 00:08:40.140 Outreach Magazine back in the fall of 2019. 00:08:41.080 --> 00:08:44.860 And they had asked me to write an article about where the multi-site movement was then, and 00:08:44.860 --> 00:08:46.500 where was it going in the future? 00:08:47.060 --> 00:08:52.740 So I, I named a half a dozen trends that I was seeing that, uh, we will, that churches 00:08:52.740 --> 00:08:57.200 that are really getting and effectively doing multi-site, this is what they're doing. 00:08:57.200 --> 00:08:58.740 And this is where this movement is going. 00:08:58.740 --> 00:09:01.060 So I went back to see if that was still valid. 00:09:01.160 --> 00:09:03.240 It is still relevant in light of COVID. 00:09:03.900 --> 00:09:07.860 And as I read it, uh, I thought, absolutely, even more so. 00:09:08.200 --> 00:09:12.660 And as I've been said in several different places and others have said as well, that COVID 00:09:12.660 --> 00:09:14.260 really hasn't changed anything. 00:09:14.260 --> 00:09:19.960 It's just accelerated the good, the bad, and the ugly, uh, in, in all dimensions, uh, you 00:09:19.960 --> 00:09:21.500 know, inside and outside the church. 00:09:21.580 --> 00:09:25.980 Certainly in the multi-site movement, uh, the trends that we were seeing of effective 00:09:25.980 --> 00:09:32.340 churches doing multi-site, uh, that those have only been accelerated and intensified and 00:09:32.340 --> 00:09:34.260 magnified through this COVID season. 00:09:34.260 --> 00:09:39.580 So, uh, I could tell you the multi-site movement is not, is not dead or dying or the idea of the 00:09:39.580 --> 00:09:40.320 model of it. 00:09:40.640 --> 00:09:44.000 Just was a few weeks ago with a church that's in one location. 00:09:44.000 --> 00:09:46.220 It's about 2000 and said, Hey, we're ready to multi-site. 00:09:46.300 --> 00:09:48.160 Can you come and talk to us up in Tennessee? 00:09:48.380 --> 00:09:51.080 So, I mean, it's not going away now for a lot of churches. 00:09:51.080 --> 00:09:54.320 And then I said this in my article back in the fall, and I just published a new article 00:09:54.320 --> 00:10:00.280 with Rezzy, you know, the, our good friends that, uh, living as one now Rezzy, uh, about 00:10:00.280 --> 00:10:04.720 they asked me what, what's, uh, could you write an article about multi-site reopenings 00:10:04.720 --> 00:10:06.000 in multi-site churches? 00:10:06.540 --> 00:10:10.840 But, um, so I expressed several of the things that we're seeing there in the multi-site church 00:10:10.840 --> 00:10:11.220 movement. 00:10:11.780 --> 00:10:19.560 But we, uh, as we said back in the fall, small is the new big that, um, smaller facilities, 00:10:19.560 --> 00:10:26.640 uh, um, uh, is, is clearly the truth was the trend then, and it continues to be that way. 00:10:26.920 --> 00:10:31.580 The churches that dabbled in multi-site, you know, with one or two locations, and they saw 00:10:31.580 --> 00:10:36.540 that as quoted like a satellite campus, uh, they still had a main campus mindset. 00:10:37.020 --> 00:10:40.340 They didn't really make the multi-site paradigm shift. 00:10:40.660 --> 00:10:44.660 We're going to see a lot of those churches, churches shedding their campuses. 00:10:45.140 --> 00:10:49.120 Uh, we already were seeing that and getting out of the multi-site movement, but those churches 00:10:49.120 --> 00:10:54.280 that really embrace the multi-site model, the paradigm of one church, multiple locations, 00:10:54.280 --> 00:11:02.440 uh, and, you know, shifted in that paradigm before COVID, they're going to, um, uh, do a fine 00:11:02.440 --> 00:11:03.500 in this, in this season. 00:11:03.800 --> 00:11:06.840 Those who have a big box model are going to struggle. 00:11:07.020 --> 00:11:12.260 That is where every campus is a big, you know, uh, huge space facility. 00:11:12.260 --> 00:11:14.880 It's just not needed with a multi-site model. 00:11:14.880 --> 00:11:19.820 Those with a big campus, main campus that they had before all, they got into the movement, 00:11:19.820 --> 00:11:25.120 uh, they're going to struggle more about filling those campuses up, but, uh, small is the new 00:11:25.120 --> 00:11:25.360 big. 00:11:25.360 --> 00:11:34.220 And, uh, for those who, who are nimble and who can, uh, um, uh, embrace the paradigm shift, 00:11:34.220 --> 00:11:38.060 um, multi-site is still going to be around and is growing. 00:11:38.720 --> 00:11:42.560 Thinking small as a consistent challenge for a lot of churches, right? 00:11:42.660 --> 00:11:46.700 Just in terms of expectations, uh, how are you encouraging churches to kind of temper those 00:11:46.700 --> 00:11:48.060 expectations as they move forward? 00:11:48.680 --> 00:11:54.720 Well, again, it's, I think before the multi-site movement, uh, the, uh, the, the mantra was, 00:11:54.820 --> 00:11:55.680 let's get as big as we can. 00:11:55.760 --> 00:11:59.800 And the mega church movement started around the seventies, eighties in America. 00:12:00.340 --> 00:12:06.140 And, uh, but then as we realized you can get so big in one location, you can become unsustainable. 00:12:06.600 --> 00:12:10.420 And so we clearly, uh, came to that conclusion. 00:12:10.800 --> 00:12:15.140 We're not going to see, and there's been a definite decline in building larger buildings, 00:12:15.140 --> 00:12:16.080 even before COVID. 00:12:16.620 --> 00:12:17.760 We just don't need them. 00:12:17.860 --> 00:12:19.360 If you're, have a multi-site mindset. 00:12:19.660 --> 00:12:25.640 I was in a church the week of COVID, the week that it hit the country, you know, that mid-March 00:12:25.640 --> 00:12:31.800 that Tuesday, I was in a church in Colorado that had moved into a building that they had built 00:12:31.800 --> 00:12:34.220 and purchased the land and built a building for $6 million. 00:12:34.900 --> 00:12:41.880 And it's, uh, they were meeting in five services in a building of 350 seats, five services on Sunday. 00:12:42.000 --> 00:12:46.860 And when they moved into that building out of a school, uh, they were about 500 three years ago, 00:12:46.860 --> 00:12:50.980 and they'd grown to 2000 people in a building with 350 seats. 00:12:51.720 --> 00:12:55.380 And they, and it was all Sunday after, you know, Sunday morning, Sunday afternoon meetings 00:12:55.380 --> 00:12:56.540 that get services. 00:12:57.200 --> 00:13:00.760 And, uh, they were almost apologizing for how small the building was. 00:13:00.760 --> 00:13:03.660 And I said, why did you build it with only 350 seats? 00:13:03.660 --> 00:13:06.120 And they said, that's all the County would allow us to build. 00:13:06.940 --> 00:13:10.620 And so, uh, I said, but let me just say this, this is the new normal. 00:13:10.800 --> 00:13:11.880 This is before COVID hit. 00:13:11.980 --> 00:13:17.600 I mean, the week of it, uh, what you've done here proves you can have, you can be a mega 00:13:17.600 --> 00:13:19.920 size church in a small facility. 00:13:20.680 --> 00:13:27.100 And, um, and so he said, well, we, we've max, I maximize our space here and we, we want 00:13:27.100 --> 00:13:27.660 a multi-site. 00:13:27.960 --> 00:13:32.940 And so I was just in that church about a month ago when they had reopened and, um, you know, 00:13:32.940 --> 00:13:39.300 they're back in the, in business and, uh, looking at down the road for more sites as 00:13:39.300 --> 00:13:43.120 well, as they get, uh, regain their, their, uh, congregation back. 00:13:43.120 --> 00:13:48.240 But, um, but I think that is the new normal, uh, you don't, you don't have to be big facilities 00:13:48.240 --> 00:13:50.440 to be a big, have a big impact. 00:13:50.440 --> 00:13:53.960 It's not getting as big as you can, but it's getting big enough where you can birth healthy, 00:13:53.960 --> 00:13:56.220 uh, uh, congregations. 00:13:56.780 --> 00:13:57.180 Right. 00:13:57.460 --> 00:13:58.920 Jim, is there a benefit to that? 00:13:58.920 --> 00:14:02.880 Because as I look to getting back, not everybody's ready to meet with large crowds. 00:14:02.940 --> 00:14:07.100 And so is there a benefit to thinking small as opposed to thinking large because of it? 00:14:07.640 --> 00:14:11.320 Well, that, that is one of the benefits we know across the country that the larger churches 00:14:11.320 --> 00:14:17.940 with larger campuses, uh, are having a hard time returning, uh, you know, the megachurch 00:14:17.940 --> 00:14:20.740 facilities, um, are not filling up. 00:14:20.900 --> 00:14:25.520 The smaller churches were able to reopen sooner and get back to pretty much business for them. 00:14:25.880 --> 00:14:31.400 So, um, we saw that here at Christ Fellowship when we reopened two weeks ago, our smaller 00:14:31.400 --> 00:14:37.380 facilities locations, uh, were, you know, 50 at, at our capacity of what's allowed for us 00:14:37.380 --> 00:14:42.960 with, uh, social distancing where our, our two larger campuses, uh, weren't, uh, hitting 00:14:42.960 --> 00:14:48.880 that even that 25% or barely hitting the 25%, uh, category for us. 00:14:48.880 --> 00:14:55.920 And so, uh, smaller is, uh, more nimble and more, uh, there's other, uh, other benefit is 00:14:55.920 --> 00:15:03.060 it, it costs a whole lot less to maintain and, uh, take care of facilities, smaller facilities. 00:15:03.560 --> 00:15:10.060 I love this line and Jim, you, like you, last time you were on the podcast, the, the line 00:15:10.060 --> 00:15:15.740 from you was the, not everybody has to buy into it, but enough have to, to make it worthwhile. 00:15:15.740 --> 00:15:20.960 That was, that was the thing I have said that hundreds of times since you were on the, on 00:15:20.960 --> 00:15:21.440 the podcast. 00:15:21.440 --> 00:15:24.480 And this line right here is going to become my next line. 00:15:24.740 --> 00:15:27.520 It's not get as big as you can. 00:15:27.740 --> 00:15:31.380 It's get big enough to multiply healthily. 00:15:31.720 --> 00:15:37.400 Let's unpack that because in, in physical church, in digital church, you know, there's, 00:15:37.400 --> 00:15:42.280 there's reach versus engagement, you know, like that there's a lot kind of in this one 00:15:42.280 --> 00:15:42.800 phrase. 00:15:42.800 --> 00:15:49.100 And so I guess I would kind of say, how do churches, do churches see this? 00:15:49.260 --> 00:15:50.940 Do churches struggle with this? 00:15:51.100 --> 00:15:57.600 Like unpack that statement, uh, and, and maybe give some advice or, or shaping in context of 00:15:57.600 --> 00:15:59.760 how that applies to the church today. 00:16:00.120 --> 00:16:04.540 Well, Jeff, I believe that, uh, it's, it's in the DNA of every living thing. 00:16:04.680 --> 00:16:08.920 God has breathed the, the, uh, into every living organism. 00:16:08.920 --> 00:16:13.800 And I think of the church as a living organism, uh, the breath of life is to, to be a blessing, 00:16:13.800 --> 00:16:16.220 uh, to be fruitful. 00:16:16.220 --> 00:16:18.720 That is to reproduce and to multiply. 00:16:18.720 --> 00:16:20.740 That was the commandment given to Adam and Eve. 00:16:20.740 --> 00:16:27.180 You know, uh, uh, he's, the Bible says in Genesis that, uh, God blessed them and said to 00:16:27.180 --> 00:16:29.540 them, be fruitful and multiply. 00:16:30.200 --> 00:16:35.360 What that means is, uh, for the local church is it's in our DNA to be fruitful, to be a blessing, 00:16:35.360 --> 00:16:39.720 first of all, to a community and to people's lives, uh, but not just to be a blessing so 00:16:39.720 --> 00:16:43.200 we can enjoy the blessing, but also to reproduce that that's being fruitful. 00:16:43.620 --> 00:16:48.140 And then to, um, not only be reproduction, but multiplication. 00:16:49.020 --> 00:16:56.400 Now, that being said, I use the analogy of, uh, a human, of a human humanity, uh, a 16 year 00:16:56.400 --> 00:17:02.520 old can have a baby, a 16 year old, uh, uh, young woman can have a, can have a child physically, 00:17:02.520 --> 00:17:03.620 but is it healthy? 00:17:03.900 --> 00:17:05.000 Is that, is that wise? 00:17:05.740 --> 00:17:11.600 Uh, 20 plus year old woman is in a better place to a healthier place to have a healthy 00:17:11.600 --> 00:17:14.520 baby and survive the, uh, the delivery. 00:17:14.660 --> 00:17:17.340 So I think the same is true for a local church. 00:17:17.620 --> 00:17:19.680 Uh, our goal is to make disciples. 00:17:20.220 --> 00:17:24.040 It's not just to do church, but, uh, we're the point of the spear of the, of the, of the, 00:17:24.040 --> 00:17:27.260 of make the disciple making the local churches. 00:17:27.700 --> 00:17:35.480 And, uh, so the, the goal ought to be as churches are birth is let's, let's reach people. 00:17:35.480 --> 00:17:39.800 Let's make disciples, let's grow, um, uh, healthy things grow. 00:17:39.980 --> 00:17:44.220 And so when we get strong enough and healthy enough, we need to reproduce. 00:17:45.340 --> 00:17:51.340 And, uh, and then when the, uh, when we birth out other congregations, true multiplication 00:17:51.340 --> 00:17:54.320 is when those congregations or campuses give birth to campuses. 00:17:54.320 --> 00:17:56.020 And so that's just in our DNA. 00:17:56.580 --> 00:18:02.100 And, uh, but there is just like in, in the human body, there is a, uh, a healthy time to 00:18:02.100 --> 00:18:04.620 do that and a premature time for that to happen. 00:18:05.800 --> 00:18:11.940 So, so we're seeing multi-sites are, and I love this evaluation that you say, if you're 00:18:11.940 --> 00:18:17.360 going to measure health, don't just measure the Sunday, measure groups, measure multiple 00:18:17.360 --> 00:18:20.020 levels, because that's going to tell you the health. 00:18:20.200 --> 00:18:25.240 Uh, it's more than just that reach of the Sunday morning, nickels and noses, uh, the butts 00:18:25.240 --> 00:18:26.400 and seats approach. 00:18:26.400 --> 00:18:32.480 And so kind of have that and, and hopefully physical established churches, even mapping that 00:18:32.480 --> 00:18:38.900 out onto the digital side, don't just map out, uh, and celebrate the number of Facebook viewers 00:18:38.900 --> 00:18:40.200 you have for two seconds. 00:18:40.560 --> 00:18:45.520 Uh, but how many, how much of that's getting connected into your next step, your membership 00:18:45.520 --> 00:18:45.800 classes? 00:18:45.800 --> 00:18:49.860 I was going to say that it's not just the followers, it's how many are taking a next step. 00:18:50.600 --> 00:18:51.340 That's the key. 00:18:52.200 --> 00:18:56.240 Um, if there, if nobody's taking a next step or if you're not even giving them an invitation 00:18:56.240 --> 00:19:01.760 to take a next step, but even if you are, uh, that's to me is the real evidence that you're 00:19:01.760 --> 00:19:04.260 connecting with people, that people are really are engaging with you. 00:19:04.520 --> 00:19:07.620 They're not just flipping through the, through the websites. 00:19:08.180 --> 00:19:08.580 Yeah. 00:19:08.700 --> 00:19:10.780 The, the challenge is to move beyond consumer. 00:19:11.020 --> 00:19:13.500 And so, cause we don't want our, our church on lines. 00:19:13.580 --> 00:19:15.660 We don't want our churches to be filled with consumers. 00:19:16.200 --> 00:19:18.700 We want to get to that, that next level. 00:19:18.980 --> 00:19:24.760 And so put metrics on that measure that gauge the success of those next steps. 00:19:24.760 --> 00:19:27.880 Don't just be, don't just be celebrating the reach number. 00:19:27.880 --> 00:19:32.300 You can, you can write a check to Facebook or to Google to, to boost that reach number. 00:19:32.420 --> 00:19:34.360 You got to figure out how to get them to that next level. 00:19:34.780 --> 00:19:39.920 Jeff, I think the churches are going to be effective in this, uh, COVID era and beyond 00:19:39.920 --> 00:19:46.360 are those that really are going to move away from focusing on the weekend experience, uh, 00:19:46.360 --> 00:19:52.180 but more to what's our content this week that we're going to put online, that we're going 00:19:52.180 --> 00:19:57.060 to deliver it week at the, at our physical campuses that we're going to funnel through 00:19:57.060 --> 00:19:57.940 our small groups. 00:19:58.480 --> 00:20:02.520 And, uh, that really it's, it's less about an event. 00:20:03.180 --> 00:20:09.300 The weekend is just, is a vehicle now, uh, one of, and a very powerful one, but one of 00:20:09.300 --> 00:20:12.260 several, and I think the focus moves there. 00:20:12.520 --> 00:20:16.660 What can we put, what, what's our content for this week or for this three months or whatever? 00:20:16.660 --> 00:20:20.260 And then how do we get that out, out in different ways, um, uh, digitally? 00:20:20.540 --> 00:20:23.200 How do we deliver that on the weekends? 00:20:23.640 --> 00:20:28.460 And so that we start with, you know, in the past, uh, Ray is the idea was, Hey, we have 00:20:28.460 --> 00:20:29.180 our weekend experience. 00:20:29.180 --> 00:20:30.120 How do we make it digital? 00:20:30.360 --> 00:20:37.680 Now, I think the shift needs to be, we have content that, uh, we, uh, start digitally. 00:20:38.220 --> 00:20:41.160 And then how do we, how do we deliver that? 00:20:42.240 --> 00:20:43.840 Contextualize that in a physical location? 00:20:44.580 --> 00:20:44.680 Yeah. 00:20:44.760 --> 00:20:52.980 The, the idea of a previous to COVID, I could see where a lot of ministries were, were operating 00:20:52.980 --> 00:20:54.380 siloed. 00:20:54.380 --> 00:20:59.940 Like the weekend experience, maybe doing one thing, small groups may or may not be connected 00:20:59.940 --> 00:21:00.640 to that. 00:21:00.820 --> 00:21:04.660 Kids and students were, were often kind of doing their own thing. 00:21:05.440 --> 00:21:14.120 In this COVID season with digital kind of rising in influence, I can see where digital becomes 00:21:14.120 --> 00:21:22.380 this thing that connects all of it together because we're experiencing those services digital. 00:21:22.380 --> 00:21:25.560 And we're experiencing our small groups digital. 00:21:25.780 --> 00:21:30.800 So our, our people are now getting drinking from the same faucet. 00:21:30.800 --> 00:21:35.460 And there's an opportunity for us as the church to seamlessly connect those together. 00:21:35.460 --> 00:21:36.220 I love that. 00:21:36.220 --> 00:21:44.380 Jim, create one, one experience, one direction, one track, and whether it's social media, that's 00:21:44.380 --> 00:21:49.680 prepping for the service or the service that's prepping for a deeper conversation in social 00:21:49.680 --> 00:21:58.180 media, you're moving people solidified in one direction instead of micro fractional pulling 00:21:58.180 --> 00:21:59.580 them in all sorts of different places. 00:21:59.780 --> 00:22:00.460 That that's beautiful. 00:22:00.640 --> 00:22:04.160 I don't think I'd really ever put that together until just now. 00:22:04.200 --> 00:22:05.180 It's a great opportunity. 00:22:05.980 --> 00:22:11.100 Well, let's, let's do, I want to talk about, um, I want, want to talk about mergers a little 00:22:11.100 --> 00:22:11.280 bit. 00:22:11.360 --> 00:22:16.100 So you just came out with this book, uh, actually it's a, it's a re-release, uh, and, and what 00:22:16.100 --> 00:22:22.060 a, what a timely re-release where you've got, uh, churches that were, we're trying to here 00:22:22.060 --> 00:22:24.660 in this COVID season, we're, we're shutting down. 00:22:24.660 --> 00:22:30.400 Like was a Barna, uh, David Kinnaman comes out, uh, 30% of Christians have left the church 00:22:30.400 --> 00:22:35.940 mathematically an act of God or radical disciple making, but mathematically they're gone. 00:22:36.060 --> 00:22:37.140 We are not going to get them back. 00:22:37.220 --> 00:22:40.980 20% of churches, uh, uh, Kinnaman saying are going to shut down. 00:22:41.360 --> 00:22:46.600 In the next 18 months, um, you know, we, we've talked about digital strategy being, being 00:22:46.600 --> 00:22:53.000 a possibility, but, uh, mergers are definitely going to be, uh, a thing in the future. 00:22:53.000 --> 00:22:58.020 And you guys were already re-releasing this book and working towards this, this book coming 00:22:58.020 --> 00:23:00.820 out to help churches figure out how to do this merger thing. 00:23:01.060 --> 00:23:02.180 Jim, tell me about it. 00:23:02.560 --> 00:23:05.620 Yeah, it's, it's an incredibly, the timing of this was amazing. 00:23:05.940 --> 00:23:10.860 Last fall, the publishers came to my co-author and I, Warren Byrd and said, your book has been 00:23:10.860 --> 00:23:13.160 a steady selling book, but it's in hardback. 00:23:13.340 --> 00:23:16.840 Could we have your permission to release that in paperback? 00:23:16.900 --> 00:23:23.100 Cause we didn't think it's a growing, um, trend and, uh, we'd like to make it even more accessible 00:23:23.100 --> 00:23:23.740 to more people. 00:23:24.040 --> 00:23:29.500 And we said, we would be willing to, uh, do that if you would allow us to update it. 00:23:29.900 --> 00:23:35.180 And, uh, and so we did a survey last fall of nearly a thousand churches who had gone through 00:23:35.180 --> 00:23:36.860 a merger in the last five to 10 years. 00:23:37.580 --> 00:23:39.900 Uh, and, uh, we added three more chapters. 00:23:40.200 --> 00:23:45.880 We, everything we wrote in the first book, we, uh, uh, we, we didn't have to repent of 00:23:45.880 --> 00:23:46.180 anything. 00:23:46.180 --> 00:23:50.960 We wrote, uh, everything we said there that we published eight and a half years ago, where, 00:23:51.080 --> 00:23:58.520 where we really gave some language to the merger, um, um, conversation and some categories and 00:23:58.520 --> 00:24:04.880 some tools about how this has gone from a lose, lose to a win, win, uh, option for churches. 00:24:05.280 --> 00:24:09.380 And that was more, these are more mission driven versus survival driven kind of mergers that 00:24:09.380 --> 00:24:10.580 we were seeing 10 years ago. 00:24:10.920 --> 00:24:16.200 And so, uh, that trend has continued to grow, uh, more and more mergers are happening, you 00:24:16.200 --> 00:24:21.840 know, eight, 10 years ago, 30% of all multi-site churches were, uh, a result of a merger or 00:24:21.840 --> 00:24:25.460 acquisition of a church building through a merger, uh, Christ Fellowship is, you know, 00:24:25.500 --> 00:24:31.800 Ray, we've had three, uh, mergers here locally and four globally that, uh, that's, you know, 00:24:32.080 --> 00:24:34.900 came on campuses, congregations through a mergers. 00:24:35.080 --> 00:24:40.040 We, we certainly experienced that now in our latest survey, over 40% of multi-site churches 00:24:40.040 --> 00:24:45.060 are experiencing, you know, facilities through a merger, but we also saw church planters, 00:24:45.340 --> 00:24:49.860 uh, 20% of church planters are acquiring a facility through a merger. 00:24:50.540 --> 00:24:55.480 And, um, we also see that many more and more churches are seeing, um, who are looking for 00:24:55.480 --> 00:25:02.140 a pastor or succession strategy as a merger is, is becoming more a tool or an option for 00:25:02.140 --> 00:25:03.400 those kinds of churches as well. 00:25:03.660 --> 00:25:09.240 But the publisher said, we, we see there's, this is a growing trend and, uh, we'd like to 00:25:09.240 --> 00:25:10.240 release it next fall. 00:25:10.320 --> 00:25:12.980 That was a year ago in the fall of 2020. 00:25:13.300 --> 00:25:18.800 And so we, we added three more chapters, added a bunch more tools, told more stories, updated 00:25:18.800 --> 00:25:21.000 some more stories from our first book. 00:25:21.620 --> 00:25:26.700 And, uh, we submitted our final manuscript the month before COVID hit. 00:25:27.680 --> 00:25:34.140 And, um, once it hit, we asked the publisher, could we have that back and, uh, address the 00:25:34.140 --> 00:25:35.140 COVID issue? 00:25:35.140 --> 00:25:39.180 And, and, uh, and also we wanted to review is COVID changed anything we wrote. 00:25:39.920 --> 00:25:43.460 And it didn't, again, it only accelerated what we were already were seeing. 00:25:44.020 --> 00:25:47.660 Uh, there's more churches merging because more churches are just, are struggling. 00:25:48.340 --> 00:25:53.540 And, um, the, um, and they said, well, we're going to, we, they get, they allowed us to 00:25:53.540 --> 00:25:55.700 have the book back to, I mean, the manuscript back. 00:25:55.900 --> 00:25:58.040 We updated some things related to COVID. 00:25:58.620 --> 00:26:02.100 Uh, and they said, we're only going to release one book this fall and that's your book. 00:26:02.580 --> 00:26:03.020 Wow. 00:26:03.260 --> 00:26:04.400 Because it's so timely. 00:26:05.200 --> 00:26:11.640 So we, um, it's better together, making church mergers work expanded and updated. 00:26:12.360 --> 00:26:13.000 That's awesome. 00:26:13.080 --> 00:26:17.260 We'll, we'll include a link in the show notes for that, but it's, uh, it was, it was a great 00:26:17.260 --> 00:26:18.040 book beforehand. 00:26:18.040 --> 00:26:23.960 I, you know, I read version one, however many years ago, but having it come back out to help 00:26:23.960 --> 00:26:28.360 churches, I, I'll be honest, like I've had, I've already had some of these hard conversations, 00:26:28.360 --> 00:26:34.160 uh, with, with churches of, Hey, um, um, I've lost my space. 00:26:34.220 --> 00:26:36.420 I was set up and tear down at a school. 00:26:36.600 --> 00:26:40.000 That's not, that's not going to happen or we're, we're not going to go back to the school. 00:26:40.100 --> 00:26:40.740 I have no idea. 00:26:40.840 --> 00:26:42.160 We're already disconnected. 00:26:42.720 --> 00:26:47.780 We, we've tried the digital thing and we're really not able, we were barely grasping, you 00:26:47.780 --> 00:26:49.660 know, financially being able to hold on. 00:26:49.660 --> 00:26:58.020 And, and I guess my question kind of walking into this is at what point is it, if, if I'm, 00:26:58.100 --> 00:27:02.880 if I'm a church like this, that's struggling today, I've got several different options. 00:27:03.020 --> 00:27:05.400 I've, I've got, I've got the merger route. 00:27:05.580 --> 00:27:11.820 I've got the, the digital strategy become a digital only church for a season, uh, until 00:27:11.820 --> 00:27:14.380 I can get my feet back underneath me. 00:27:14.960 --> 00:27:18.580 Um, you know, I've got just to hang it up and close it down. 00:27:18.620 --> 00:27:21.120 Don't worry, like just move on to the next thing. 00:27:21.200 --> 00:27:23.360 So I've really got like three different approaches. 00:27:23.760 --> 00:27:24.620 It's interesting. 00:27:24.620 --> 00:27:27.880 You're kind of talking about all three at different levels. 00:27:27.880 --> 00:27:33.460 So what, how do I know as, as a, as a lead pastor of, of a church that's struggling, 00:27:33.460 --> 00:27:35.600 how do I know what path to go on? 00:27:36.020 --> 00:27:36.700 It's a good question. 00:27:36.820 --> 00:27:40.880 I, one of the things that we tell churches, um, how do you know if you're a struggling 00:27:40.880 --> 00:27:42.880 church or stuck church or strong church? 00:27:42.880 --> 00:27:44.120 Those are our three categories, right? 00:27:44.160 --> 00:27:49.180 Your strong churches are, are emerging because they're acquiring facilities and congregations, 00:27:49.180 --> 00:27:55.320 adopting them, um, as, cause they're growing, they're expanding, they're needing for facilities. 00:27:55.320 --> 00:28:01.380 Uh, stuck churches, uh, many times are stuck because they, uh, they, they don't know they're 00:28:01.380 --> 00:28:01.740 stuck. 00:28:01.740 --> 00:28:04.860 They think cause they're meeting their bills and, you know, everything's okay. 00:28:04.860 --> 00:28:08.320 They're not in trouble financially, but they're not reaching people. 00:28:08.320 --> 00:28:09.100 They're not growing. 00:28:09.260 --> 00:28:11.200 And some, some churches are fine with that. 00:28:11.520 --> 00:28:13.520 Uh, they like, they don't, they're okay being stuck. 00:28:13.600 --> 00:28:16.200 Others aren't happy with it and are dissatisfied with that. 00:28:16.200 --> 00:28:17.340 Then there are, those are struggling. 00:28:17.600 --> 00:28:24.760 We know that, um, in our work at, at the unstuck group about, um, we have a category of there's 00:28:24.760 --> 00:28:27.080 seven stages of a life cycle of a church. 00:28:27.480 --> 00:28:36.860 And, um, the downside is about 60% are in maintenance mode stuck about 15% are in life 00:28:36.860 --> 00:28:37.420 preservation. 00:28:38.460 --> 00:28:47.040 And then the, um, about 10% are in, um, life support those that's about 25% of those churches 00:28:47.040 --> 00:28:53.120 that COVID is only going to accelerate their, um, uh, closing. 00:28:53.760 --> 00:28:58.280 Now, uh, if you're a church, it's not, whatever you measure as a church, whether it's attendance, 00:28:58.640 --> 00:29:05.960 finances, uh, but baptisms, uh, whatever you measure, if, uh, if that's, if those things 00:29:05.960 --> 00:29:10.780 have been on the downside for more than two plus years, you're in trouble. 00:29:11.480 --> 00:29:16.100 You need to turn around or you may not, you may be too far gone to turn around. 00:29:16.100 --> 00:29:20.120 You need to close down or the nice thing is with a merger, you have a chance to have a 00:29:20.120 --> 00:29:22.960 new, a second life, a new chapter, a rebirth. 00:29:23.380 --> 00:29:24.980 How do I know what path to choose? 00:29:25.300 --> 00:29:29.980 The first thing church leaders need to do is, and the first thing leaders do is define 00:29:29.980 --> 00:29:30.500 reality. 00:29:31.100 --> 00:29:31.980 Where are we now? 00:29:32.780 --> 00:29:35.660 Uh, where do we want to go and how do we get there? 00:29:36.060 --> 00:29:42.160 And so, uh, one of the things we do on the unstuck, uh, website, we have a self-assessment tool 00:29:42.160 --> 00:29:43.600 that churches can take. 00:29:43.700 --> 00:29:48.000 We've had over 15,000 churches take the self-assessment tool of their health. 00:29:48.560 --> 00:29:53.520 And, uh, we, and that's where we get our cat, our statistics about how many churches are struggling, 00:29:53.660 --> 00:29:55.800 how many are thriving, et cetera. 00:29:56.220 --> 00:30:04.660 But, um, so first of all is, uh, our friends, are we, do we, are we going to make it? 00:30:05.200 --> 00:30:09.340 Uh, do we, even if we can make it financially and many of the churches that merge are not 00:30:09.340 --> 00:30:12.920 in trouble financially, but they, they're not, they're stuck. 00:30:13.140 --> 00:30:14.360 They're not reaching people. 00:30:14.460 --> 00:30:15.440 They're not making disciples. 00:30:15.960 --> 00:30:23.900 And we all know that the church should be a prevailing church and that we, we exist to 00:30:23.900 --> 00:30:24.520 make disciples. 00:30:24.640 --> 00:30:27.940 If we're not making disciples, then we're stuck now. 00:30:28.140 --> 00:30:34.060 But, uh, uh, so a, a good self-assessment is the first step. 00:30:34.900 --> 00:30:36.240 What are the, what are the metrics? 00:30:36.340 --> 00:30:40.480 What are the things that measure health in the, in your, in your world? 00:30:41.080 --> 00:30:43.520 That will tell you, we need to do something here. 00:30:44.080 --> 00:30:45.280 It's a great start. 00:30:45.460 --> 00:30:45.900 Really. 00:30:46.060 --> 00:30:50.420 I mean, honestly, humbly evaluate where you are in the path. 00:30:50.480 --> 00:30:55.820 Is it worth getting connected to, to somebody else or even just being broken enough to recognize 00:30:55.820 --> 00:30:58.640 where, where you are and that you even need, need that help. 00:30:58.640 --> 00:31:03.400 So we'll, we'll link to the self-assessment in the, uh, in the, in the show notes. 00:31:03.500 --> 00:31:08.920 You, you can get access to that and go through, um, and, uh, the, the unstuck group, 00:31:09.000 --> 00:31:14.080 Tony Morgan and those guys are, are, are doing a great work right now, trying to help, uh, 00:31:14.080 --> 00:31:16.000 obviously as many churches in this COVID season. 00:31:16.000 --> 00:31:20.600 I think all the organizations that were trying to help churches, they're all working overdrive 00:31:20.600 --> 00:31:22.880 right now, trying to help through that. 00:31:22.880 --> 00:31:28.460 So, you know, Jim, one of the things that I've loved about you is, is you're, you're the 00:31:28.460 --> 00:31:29.500 forward thinking guy. 00:31:29.800 --> 00:31:34.960 Um, you're, I don't, I don't want to say like, you're like old, but you're, you've been 00:31:34.960 --> 00:31:36.740 working for, uh, for decades. 00:31:36.980 --> 00:31:37.680 That's awesome. 00:31:37.720 --> 00:31:38.660 We talked about that earlier. 00:31:38.660 --> 00:31:41.200 So we'll just, we'll just pay homage to that. 00:31:41.200 --> 00:31:47.160 Um, but by thinking, uh, by being the age that you are, you've always been kind of pushing 00:31:47.160 --> 00:31:48.880 the limits on things. 00:31:48.880 --> 00:31:54.220 One of the leaders of the multi-site movements championing this, this idea of mergers, uh, 00:31:54.220 --> 00:31:58.220 you've been forward thinking in context of, of your ministry life. 00:31:58.220 --> 00:32:04.140 And this is what I think is interesting in this season now is we've got a, uh, an opportunity 00:32:04.140 --> 00:32:05.160 to do something different. 00:32:05.280 --> 00:32:09.640 You know, some of the things that, that I've been championing is this idea of a digital only 00:32:09.640 --> 00:32:14.300 church, a church that doesn't have a physical footprint necessarily. 00:32:14.300 --> 00:32:19.720 And we've, you know, we've talked with digital only planners like DJ Soto, who's got a, uh, 00:32:19.720 --> 00:32:23.860 I don't know, reaching hundreds of people in virtual reality on multiple campuses. 00:32:24.180 --> 00:32:30.400 Angela Craig is doing a Facebook, uh, church that's in 40 countries, 43 languages, something 00:32:30.400 --> 00:32:30.940 like that. 00:32:31.060 --> 00:32:37.480 Jade Earhart's reaching video gamers and discipling them and creating a discipleship movement, growing 00:32:37.480 --> 00:32:42.120 it into a church digitally using tools like Twitch and discord. 00:32:42.120 --> 00:32:45.880 Uh, and so this is a, this is a forward thinking thing. 00:32:45.880 --> 00:32:53.420 And so as I, as I talk with people about this idea of a digital only church, uh, I get one 00:32:53.420 --> 00:32:58.700 of two responses, uh, one is that is the greatest thing that I've ever heard. 00:32:58.700 --> 00:32:59.760 It's about time. 00:32:59.880 --> 00:33:00.720 How can I help? 00:33:01.120 --> 00:33:04.700 Or the second is that's borderline heresy. 00:33:04.700 --> 00:33:06.740 You're going to hell just for the idea. 00:33:07.360 --> 00:33:12.460 Um, and literally even in COVID season, it's, it's, it's a, it's a true dichotomy. 00:33:12.460 --> 00:33:13.540 It's either one of those two. 00:33:14.060 --> 00:33:20.340 I'm just curious, kind of your perspective at this idea of a digital only church, a church 00:33:20.340 --> 00:33:25.780 without a physical footprint existing in, in digital space held to biblical standards. 00:33:26.420 --> 00:33:28.180 Um, what, what's your take? 00:33:28.260 --> 00:33:29.120 What's your opinion? 00:33:29.120 --> 00:33:33.700 When you look at the future, what role do you see like a digital only church playing? 00:33:34.120 --> 00:33:38.920 This conversation is a lot like people were having before COVID, where can you even do 00:33:38.920 --> 00:33:41.900 a digital campus, digital church experience? 00:33:41.900 --> 00:33:43.660 You know, there was a lot of debate about that. 00:33:43.700 --> 00:33:44.340 It's not biblical. 00:33:44.340 --> 00:33:50.100 It's not, it's not, uh, meets the requirements of biblical community, et cetera. 00:33:50.360 --> 00:33:56.000 Nobody's, nobody's saying that these last six months about, can it work on online? 00:33:56.180 --> 00:33:59.440 Of course, we've demonstrated, it's been demonstrated. 00:33:59.720 --> 00:34:01.960 You can be a fully functioning church online. 00:34:02.480 --> 00:34:07.720 The question about digital only, I think, uh, first of all, I, that is the only option in 00:34:07.720 --> 00:34:14.440 parts of the world where it's illegal to meet as Christians, where the, uh, where there's 00:34:14.440 --> 00:34:14.940 persecution. 00:34:14.940 --> 00:34:20.500 So, uh, for many of those, that's, that is the only way they can do church is digitally. 00:34:21.180 --> 00:34:26.200 Uh, and, uh, we know that people perhaps in prisons as well, you know, I mean, they can't 00:34:26.200 --> 00:34:29.100 go to a church service and all that sort of thing, although there are ways to even have 00:34:29.100 --> 00:34:32.400 a church service in a, in a prison, but I think, is it possible? 00:34:32.540 --> 00:34:32.800 Yes. 00:34:33.360 --> 00:34:38.740 Uh, and, um, is it only, I think that we, I think we will see some experiences of church 00:34:38.740 --> 00:34:42.300 individuals who are, who are going to be, uh, digital only. 00:34:42.300 --> 00:34:43.660 That's just going to be their strategy. 00:34:43.660 --> 00:34:45.440 And I want to just say, go for it. 00:34:45.760 --> 00:34:51.480 The, um, uh, I think that if I was a church planter today, and if I was starting all over, 00:34:51.520 --> 00:34:54.340 if I was going to start as a church, I would start digitally. 00:34:54.340 --> 00:34:56.840 And this is basically what it's so fun because that's what you get. 00:34:57.040 --> 00:34:57.980 You're working with Stadia. 00:34:58.440 --> 00:35:03.400 That's what they hired you to do is to help church planters start churches beginning 00:35:03.400 --> 00:35:05.480 digitally first, at least. 00:35:05.780 --> 00:35:10.380 And I think mostly with the idea of a physical, uh, launch eventually. 00:35:10.900 --> 00:35:16.180 I think if, uh, that if I was doing, I would do digital church and then I would get people 00:35:16.180 --> 00:35:17.040 into small groups. 00:35:19.260 --> 00:35:24.720 And, um, and then maybe once a quarter, we'd rent a facility and I'll come together. 00:35:25.680 --> 00:35:29.120 Um, and, uh, you know, have a church experience. 00:35:29.680 --> 00:35:31.900 The, uh, that, I think that would be the way I would go. 00:35:31.900 --> 00:35:36.020 It reminds me a lot of the first century, the first three centuries where they, uh, the, 00:35:36.220 --> 00:35:41.640 and the most part it was illegal to meet as Christians to certainly build buildings and 00:35:41.640 --> 00:35:42.740 all, but they all met somewhere. 00:35:42.740 --> 00:35:46.240 There was a meeting place somewhere, uh, but it was homes. 00:35:46.240 --> 00:35:47.560 It was by a riverside. 00:35:47.560 --> 00:35:49.460 It was, uh, in a jail. 00:35:49.460 --> 00:35:57.900 It was, um, the, um, the idea of a, being of a, uh, a building centric faith, you know, 00:35:57.900 --> 00:36:02.580 that's, that's something that's happened over the last hundreds of years, maybe in the West. 00:36:02.580 --> 00:36:08.960 But, um, we know today that, uh, where the church is growing the fastest is, um, in places 00:36:08.960 --> 00:36:14.080 like Iran, uh, Afghanistan, et cetera, but I'm getting off track. 00:36:14.200 --> 00:36:21.080 Digital only, um, I, I, um, I think the jury's still out on that. 00:36:22.140 --> 00:36:25.760 I think that the, no, it's not just about biblical community. 00:36:25.760 --> 00:36:30.120 I think it's just human humanity in general has a need for physical connection. 00:36:30.560 --> 00:36:39.620 So I think we'll figure out ways to, um, uh, come together, but it won't, uh, but I think 00:36:39.620 --> 00:36:41.720 it'll be different venues to doing that. 00:36:41.840 --> 00:36:46.480 But I do think if I was starting a church today, I would start digital first for sure. 00:36:47.340 --> 00:36:51.860 And, uh, and then figure out how do we deliver digital experience in a physical location? 00:36:52.460 --> 00:36:53.840 How do we adapt that? 00:36:54.540 --> 00:36:56.300 Yeah, I, I, I love that challenge. 00:36:56.300 --> 00:37:01.100 The idea of, of, of, of planting a church digital first and then, and then growing it in physical 00:37:01.100 --> 00:37:01.560 stadia. 00:37:01.660 --> 00:37:03.340 We were doing that a lot. 00:37:03.400 --> 00:37:06.200 I can already tell you, you know, success stories of guys. 00:37:06.200 --> 00:37:09.240 I loved your podcast with, uh, the Nouveau church. 00:37:09.940 --> 00:37:10.320 Oh yeah. 00:37:10.500 --> 00:37:10.680 Yeah. 00:37:10.820 --> 00:37:14.420 Nouveau has been doing a great job with that. 00:37:14.580 --> 00:37:15.100 And it was funny. 00:37:15.200 --> 00:37:20.580 There was, um, we would, one of, one of the other guys that was on here, Ray Hudson, who's 00:37:20.580 --> 00:37:23.300 with, um, oh Ray, forgive me. 00:37:23.320 --> 00:37:23.640 I'm sorry. 00:37:23.700 --> 00:37:26.900 I'm blanking on your church name right now, but he just launched. 00:37:26.960 --> 00:37:27.720 He had been digital. 00:37:27.840 --> 00:37:31.560 He'd launched early, um, in, in the middle of the COVID season. 00:37:31.560 --> 00:37:37.760 And he just coming out of, out of COVID, he just had his first physical services, I think 00:37:37.760 --> 00:37:42.020 this past week, um, he did, and it was, it was at a micro location. 00:37:42.020 --> 00:37:47.700 It was not in the location he was planning on, uh, but they could have 20 people in the 00:37:47.700 --> 00:37:50.760 service, uh, because of restrictions. 00:37:51.040 --> 00:37:57.380 And so he launched his first service with six, first weekend with six services to Saturday 00:37:57.380 --> 00:38:04.080 for Sunday, uh, preached 15 minutes, you know, shorter worship was a much more condensed environment. 00:38:04.080 --> 00:38:08.260 It was basically some of the same content that was done digitally with his online service, 00:38:08.260 --> 00:38:09.440 just done physically. 00:38:09.440 --> 00:38:11.900 And so planners are trying to figure out how to mold that. 00:38:12.140 --> 00:38:17.100 Honestly, he's trying to figure out if he could do 10 services, 10 services as a planner. 00:38:17.100 --> 00:38:20.520 It's just phenomenal because some of the dedication heading into that. 00:38:21.040 --> 00:38:22.360 But here's, here's what I know. 00:38:22.460 --> 00:38:24.520 And Jim, you know, maybe, maybe you see this, maybe not. 00:38:24.620 --> 00:38:31.400 But when, when I look into the, into now coming out of COVID, I really see where all the models 00:38:31.400 --> 00:38:32.320 have been jumbled up. 00:38:32.920 --> 00:38:38.680 Uh, I, I think that, that people, maybe this isn't a long-term thing, but at least short-term, 00:38:38.680 --> 00:38:46.240 I think churches are trying to fit into whatever mold they can and, and maybe the established 00:38:46.240 --> 00:38:54.700 model of what any given church was, uh, because of COVID, I think all the playbooks are kind 00:38:54.700 --> 00:39:01.580 of jumbled and everybody's just grasping to try to find whatever straw they can to, to work, 00:39:01.820 --> 00:39:08.660 which I think opens up in opportunities for things like digital only churches to work and to kind 00:39:08.660 --> 00:39:15.280 of get defined. Uh, because I've, I've got micro churches, I've got digital, I've got digital 00:39:15.280 --> 00:39:21.580 only, I've got digital first where I'm having to do this before I've got digital next where I'm on 00:39:21.580 --> 00:39:26.540 the verge of shutting down. I'm trying to find somebody to merge with and digital next really 00:39:26.540 --> 00:39:33.700 seems to be the solution for me, um, for a season until I can get my legs back under me as a church. 00:39:33.700 --> 00:39:40.600 It just really seems like as these models get jumbled up, I think there's an opportunity for 00:39:40.600 --> 00:39:48.020 another model to open up with this idea of, let me recognize digital community as a community that's, 00:39:48.020 --> 00:39:54.740 that's worthy of, of a, of a church. So are you, what, what challenges do you see even as, 00:39:54.740 --> 00:39:59.960 as we're looking at all of these different models of what church looks like and how can digital play 00:39:59.960 --> 00:40:05.260 a part? Well, I think this, this is an exciting era. This allows us, we've gotten in some ways, 00:40:05.380 --> 00:40:10.000 COVID has given us permission to do a lot of experimenting and a lot of trying. I would say 00:40:10.000 --> 00:40:15.940 right now, Jeff, nobody has, would, would definitively can say, this is the way to forward. This is, 00:40:16.120 --> 00:40:21.720 this is the best model. This is the best practices. We're all learning that right now. And so, uh, 00:40:21.720 --> 00:40:28.540 it's, but I think this is a great shakeup for the church because we were stuck and declining, 00:40:28.940 --> 00:40:34.040 generally speaking, 20% of the churches in America, we're, we're, are thriving, we're thriving. 00:40:34.500 --> 00:40:40.580 Uh, uh, and I celebrate that. And many of those are the churches that are very innovative and 00:40:40.580 --> 00:40:46.000 pioneering and willing to, to try new things. The, um, but I think this season gives us the permission 00:40:46.000 --> 00:40:54.460 to do that and ask me a year from now, uh, what's, what's the new, the new normal, what's the new 00:40:54.460 --> 00:41:02.060 best practices. Uh, again, I think, um, a lot of how you produce, predict the future is what's working 00:41:02.060 --> 00:41:11.320 now and kind of, um, um, follow that the implications project that forward. But right now COVID has turned 00:41:11.320 --> 00:41:18.600 everything upside down, but it gives us a huge, um, opportunity and permission to try new models, 00:41:18.760 --> 00:41:25.900 new methods, new ideas. And those, those, uh, many of those are going to stick and become the new, 00:41:26.020 --> 00:41:30.920 the new normal. Yeah. And, and even to quote you from last time you were on, not everybody has to buy 00:41:30.920 --> 00:41:37.620 into it, but enough have to, to make it worthwhile. So, you know, in this, in this season, experiment, 00:41:37.900 --> 00:41:45.120 try something new, um, change the way that you're evaluating to a fuller picture beyond just the, 00:41:45.120 --> 00:41:51.680 the reach, start to get into that engagement. Engagement is the new, um, you know, stat to 00:41:51.680 --> 00:41:57.580 celebrate and do that across your entire church, your entire discipleship pathway, engagement pathway, 00:41:57.580 --> 00:42:02.720 and, uh, change the way that you're evaluating your church. This is all, it's all beautiful. It all 00:42:02.720 --> 00:42:07.680 works together. So Jeff, I'm, I'm thinking it was you that coined the phrase fidgetal church, 00:42:07.680 --> 00:42:12.500 right? You know, what's interesting is we could actually probably have that conversation. It's 00:42:12.500 --> 00:42:18.440 either myself or James Emery White. It was, I, I stole it from, uh, from business, like businesses 00:42:18.440 --> 00:42:24.540 using it. Forbes, I think was the first place that I saw it. Um, and it was funny the other day I was 00:42:24.540 --> 00:42:29.140 actually trying to scrape back through blog posts to try to find where mine was. And, and it's, I know 00:42:29.140 --> 00:42:35.720 James Emery White's been using it a lot over out of, um, out of his church and his movement, uh, with 00:42:35.720 --> 00:42:41.040 church and culture. And so I'm not sure honestly who predates it, but we were, we were early on in 00:42:41.040 --> 00:42:49.480 that. And I, I love, I love that it's now becoming like normal talk. I was watching a sermon of a church 00:42:49.480 --> 00:42:56.060 of a friend of mine and, and some 65 year old pastors on stage preaching online, talking about 00:42:56.060 --> 00:43:02.120 how we as a church, we need to think more fidgetal. And I'm like, I just got a 65 year old dude to 00:43:02.120 --> 00:43:07.720 say fidgetal in, in a sermon. Like I, my, my work here is, is done. Like this is, this is great. 00:43:10.140 --> 00:43:16.600 So it has definitely been a great run and, uh, we're, we're not slowing down. I know you four year, 00:43:16.600 --> 00:43:21.380 four decades ongoing. You're, you're not slowing down either as well. And you've been a little 00:43:21.380 --> 00:43:27.200 inspirational for me, even just saying, Hey, I want to be able to keep pressing on in ministry and 00:43:27.200 --> 00:43:31.580 doing this. And, and for me to keep up pace with you, I guess that means I'll have to be working 00:43:31.580 --> 00:43:37.480 in 2040 and, and, and Lord knows what the church is going to look like in a couple of decades. So 00:43:37.480 --> 00:43:42.760 that, that might be an interesting challenge into itself, but Hey, Jim, and it's been great hanging out 00:43:42.760 --> 00:43:47.800 with you today. Uh, as, as always any, as, as we're landing the plane here, any closing thoughts? 00:43:48.140 --> 00:43:53.300 You commented about just being forward thinking for four, four decades. I appreciate it. Thank you for 00:43:53.300 --> 00:43:59.580 that compliment. I do have a, um, I've always had this. I, I, I wake up every day thinking, how can we 00:43:59.580 --> 00:44:04.240 do this better? How can we reach more people? How can we make more disciples better and more and 00:44:04.240 --> 00:44:10.580 better disciples? Um, that has been a driving force for me or, or a conviction. And how do we, 00:44:11.140 --> 00:44:18.000 how do we do this better? I never, I get bored when it's, uh, routine, uh, even if it's routine 00:44:18.000 --> 00:44:24.800 successful, um, because success sometimes can be the greatest inhibitor of, of greater impact 00:44:24.800 --> 00:44:30.260 because we, we get comfortable with our current success. And so I think, uh, all down through the 00:44:30.260 --> 00:44:35.940 centuries, there've always been innovative church leaders who were willing to, uh, experiment to 00:44:35.940 --> 00:44:42.880 embrace the latest technology and, and leverage it and use it for making more disciples and extending 00:44:42.880 --> 00:44:52.320 God's kingdom on earth. And so, um, it's fun being in this space and, um, I, and, uh, I, I'm still 00:44:52.320 --> 00:44:59.080 loving it and, um, and want to keep doing this until I can't. Awesome. Love it. So, hey, check, 00:44:59.180 --> 00:45:04.420 check out, uh, better together, the links in the show notes on, on, on the merger, uh, you know, 00:45:04.420 --> 00:45:12.060 check out if you're not following Jim on, on social media through multi-site guy and merger guru, 00:45:12.060 --> 00:45:17.800 and, you know, what's, what's, whatever the next thing is, Jim, Jim will figure it out and, and, 00:45:17.800 --> 00:45:23.780 and find ways to, to, to jump on that. So love, uh, the, the influence Jim, once again, 00:45:23.820 --> 00:45:28.720 that, that you've had on my life. So thank you for that. Ray had to step out, uh, to go actually 00:45:28.720 --> 00:45:33.900 do Christ fellowship work as, as known to happen. So Ray's not even on here, but it was great having 00:45:33.900 --> 00:45:39.340 him on too. For Ray, uh, for Jim, this is Jeff, uh, with the church digital and stadia church planning. 00:45:39.340 --> 00:45:43.720 Thanks for joining us on the podcast again, and, uh, we'll see you next time here at the show. 00:45:43.860 --> 00:45:44.300 Y'all have a good day.