WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:04.620 Hey, all right, we got episode 103 of the Church Digital Podcast, once again, powered by Stadia 00:00:04.620 --> 00:00:10.340 Church Planning. Jeff here. I love this conversation. This is probably going to be 00:00:10.340 --> 00:00:14.860 one of my favorite churches because I love how aggressive they are, really, without having a lot 00:00:14.860 --> 00:00:20.900 of resources. I'm talking about Cornerstone Church up in the Pacific Northwest. Jason Poling is the 00:00:20.900 --> 00:00:26.880 lead pastor there. And so we had this conversation. Jason is the guest here on the show. But let me 00:00:26.880 --> 00:00:35.320 tell you up front, Jason's the only pastor I know of in the country that's doing ministry in three 00:00:35.320 --> 00:00:40.520 different phases. Now, we don't talk about this a lot, but there's obviously the physical space. 00:00:41.020 --> 00:00:46.900 There's digital space, which is like broadcasting your services online, videos recorded through 00:00:46.900 --> 00:00:54.140 cameras broadcasted to web browsers, to mobile apps, that sort of thing. You're using video to do 00:00:54.140 --> 00:01:01.700 small groups and Zoom and things like that. You know, that's a digital church. It's a physical 00:01:01.700 --> 00:01:07.200 ministry, a digital church. That's really kind of where those two phases are that are most popular 00:01:07.200 --> 00:01:15.060 in this season. The third phase is the world of virtual reality. It's the world of avatars. And so 00:01:15.060 --> 00:01:21.260 Jason Poling here, through his small church, Cornerstone, I don't know, 300, 400 people, 00:01:21.340 --> 00:01:27.400 I think he says here on the podcast, he's not only is he doing physical ministry to three to 400 people, 00:01:27.400 --> 00:01:34.740 not only is he broadcasting his services online through, you know, cameras and those techniques, 00:01:34.940 --> 00:01:43.100 but he's also doing avatar church. He's doing virtual reality church. One, and it's like the same staff 00:01:43.100 --> 00:01:50.160 support all three, the same message goes to all three, the same discipleship process goes to all 00:01:50.160 --> 00:01:57.780 three. He's figured out how to scale his church, not only physically, not only digitally, but also 00:01:57.780 --> 00:02:04.520 virtually in the land of avatars. Like this is a phenomenal story out of a small church up in the 00:02:04.520 --> 00:02:09.340 Pacific Northwest. You can see why I love it so much. So, hey, why not bring this guy in and have a 00:02:09.340 --> 00:02:15.400 conversation? See what he's learning in this season when it comes to physical, digital, and also 00:02:15.400 --> 00:02:22.460 virtual reality. Multi-site campus is phenomenal. So we're bringing in, like I said, Jason Poling, 00:02:22.540 --> 00:02:28.860 lead pastor from Cornerstone Church, myself, Jeff with the Church Digital and Stadia Church Planning 00:02:28.860 --> 00:02:34.680 in a conversation that I'm essentially calling the Virtual Reality Multi-Site Campus. Okay, 00:02:34.720 --> 00:02:38.220 everybody, here you go. Why don't you tell us about yourself? Tell us about Cornerstone, 00:02:38.380 --> 00:02:42.660 your church, kind of like give us your ministry story. Yeah, so Cornerstone Church is where I'm at 00:02:42.660 --> 00:02:48.100 in Yuba City, which is north of Sacramento, about 45 minutes in the valley up there in Northern 00:02:48.100 --> 00:02:53.840 California. And I've been there for two and a half years about. So I was a pastor over in eastern Iowa 00:02:53.840 --> 00:02:58.580 in Cedar Rapids in the Evangelical Free Church of America. The denomination is a small kind of 00:02:58.580 --> 00:03:02.900 movement. So I was there 10 years and then two and a half years ago came out here, came out west, 00:03:03.000 --> 00:03:08.400 packed up the bags like the Beverly Hillbillies. And yeah, here I am. And it's been great. I do love 00:03:08.400 --> 00:03:14.020 it out here, aside from the fires and the smoke and all the other crazy stuff in California. But the 00:03:14.020 --> 00:03:17.580 people are great and the church has been good to me. So we've really enjoyed it out here. 00:03:17.920 --> 00:03:22.880 So there's like, I don't know, a million Cornerstone churches in America. That just 00:03:22.880 --> 00:03:28.200 seems to be a popular name. You're not affiliated with any of them. There's no denominations, 00:03:28.320 --> 00:03:30.760 no organizations. You're just kind of like the standalone. 00:03:31.300 --> 00:03:35.600 I'm sure they're great organizations, but yeah, we're by ourselves out here in Yuba City. So 00:03:35.600 --> 00:03:38.760 Cornerstone Church of Yuba City is its own entity, I guess. 00:03:39.100 --> 00:03:43.820 Yeah. So is it a big church? Is it a small church? I never want to put numbers on it, 00:03:43.820 --> 00:03:48.340 but we're going to talk to kind of calling and vision with where we're going with this 00:03:48.340 --> 00:03:52.940 conversation with you. I'd love to just, some of the backstory, like tell me specifically about the 00:03:52.940 --> 00:03:56.720 church. Yeah. So when I came out, so it's been a, it's been a blessing and just all, you know, 00:03:56.740 --> 00:04:02.720 all of grace from God. Obviously COVID has really made the numbers crazy. But when I came, you know, 00:04:02.740 --> 00:04:06.740 it was a church that was maybe struggling. It was struggling. It's about 150 members that had 00:04:06.740 --> 00:04:11.600 declined from a peak about 500, about 10 years ago. And it just kind of steadily declined 00:04:11.600 --> 00:04:19.080 various reasons. And then, so I came in 2018 and it just, by God's grace, we just, I've got a great 00:04:19.080 --> 00:04:23.820 staff. They're, they are amazing because they're very, very, very part-time. As you can imagine, 00:04:23.860 --> 00:04:28.340 a small church, the budget's not great and they've just done a great job. And so the church really 00:04:28.340 --> 00:04:33.740 grew over the past two years from about 150 to about a little over 300, maybe 330 was an average 00:04:33.740 --> 00:04:41.140 attendance on our services on Sunday. And that was about March. And so March hit and then we closed. 00:04:41.600 --> 00:04:49.340 We've reopened since. We're probably about 50% of physical tenants. And then the rest seem to be 00:04:49.340 --> 00:04:55.140 online as far as average live viewers of our congregants and people, of course, everywhere 00:04:55.140 --> 00:05:00.080 else. Who knows, who knows who we're all drawing in at this point, but it's definitely been a ride 00:05:00.080 --> 00:05:05.780 up and down. I mean, to grow and then come back down with the numbers, it's, it's been a little bit 00:05:05.780 --> 00:05:11.220 interesting, but you know, I think every, most churches that I've been aware of have experienced 00:05:11.220 --> 00:05:13.240 quite a, quite a shift here. 00:05:13.880 --> 00:05:15.600 Yeah. So you guys are already meeting. 00:05:16.060 --> 00:05:19.400 That's, that's, we're meeting now. Yeah. So California, yeah, it's kind of bizarre because 00:05:19.400 --> 00:05:23.500 you think California is a lot more strict on it and, and they are pretty strict, but you're allowed to 00:05:23.500 --> 00:05:30.640 meet, uh, depending on the County, but we're allowed to meet, um, basically outside is what we were 00:05:30.640 --> 00:05:35.360 supposed to be doing, but then the fires hit and you couldn't be outside for longer than five minutes 00:05:35.360 --> 00:05:41.620 or hacking up a lung. So we went back inside. It's, it's been a little bit, uh, nebulous on what 00:05:41.620 --> 00:05:44.640 the actual protocols are supposed to be with all the things that have been happening. 00:05:45.220 --> 00:05:48.420 Well, and California has got, is it, it's MacArthur, right? That, that's. 00:05:48.420 --> 00:05:50.180 Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. He was, yeah. 00:05:50.420 --> 00:05:51.860 Difficult out there. So yeah. 00:05:52.380 --> 00:05:53.120 That's a whole nother. 00:05:53.340 --> 00:05:55.100 The government's being nebulous right now. 00:05:55.320 --> 00:05:58.620 So no, but with him, I think they're there, they're a little more onto him. Our area, you know, 00:05:58.620 --> 00:06:03.220 up in Northern California, it's not, yeah, it's the, the, the, uh, sheriff and police, 00:06:03.280 --> 00:06:07.520 they're, they're pretty relaxed about stuff, but down there, I, yeah, MacArthur picked the 00:06:07.520 --> 00:06:08.380 fight. That's for sure. 00:06:08.840 --> 00:06:09.080 Yeah. 00:06:09.220 --> 00:06:11.560 MacArthur was a champion of online church from the get-go. 00:06:11.600 --> 00:06:12.640 Oh yeah, sure he was. 00:06:15.340 --> 00:06:16.980 Oh, wow. I'm not even touching that. 00:06:16.980 --> 00:06:17.960 Don't go there. Yeah. Don't go there. 00:06:18.200 --> 00:06:20.200 Totally not going there at all. 00:06:20.620 --> 00:06:24.180 Hey, you'll be a part of cancel culture quick, right? You know, they'll, they'll cancel the 00:06:24.180 --> 00:06:27.080 Jeff Reed show. You get on there. Oh, geez. 00:06:27.400 --> 00:06:31.900 It would not take a lot to cancel the Jeff Reed show. I'm just saying it's, it's, it's not 00:06:31.900 --> 00:06:35.860 like you, you, we even take a lot of work to make it happen. I think a couple of key 00:06:35.860 --> 00:06:39.700 phone calls would, would get it taken care of. I'm not that I'm giving ideas to people 00:06:39.700 --> 00:06:44.940 because that would be the completely wrong thing to do. Hey, so you hit my radar. I, maybe 00:06:44.940 --> 00:06:51.240 like the first month or so, I remember just having a brief, a little bit. And it was this 00:06:51.240 --> 00:06:57.400 idea of you're doing a, you're a physical lead pastor at a, at a physical church and you 00:06:57.400 --> 00:07:02.980 were spinning up a virtual reality church. Like, I think we met like five or six weeks 00:07:02.980 --> 00:07:03.780 before it launched. 00:07:04.040 --> 00:07:09.900 Yeah. We were right at the real beginning of this. And, um, and so it's like, Oh, this is 00:07:09.900 --> 00:07:14.360 intriguing. This guy's doing physical and virtual reality at the same time. And then I'm talking 00:07:14.360 --> 00:07:19.500 into DJ and DJ's DJ Soto lead pastor of VR church. And he just starts singing your praises 00:07:19.500 --> 00:07:22.580 of all this stuff that's happening. And I was like, well, man, I want to hear some of these 00:07:22.580 --> 00:07:28.420 stories. I want to hear what's going on, uh, with, uh, with your church, uh, Cornerstone 00:07:28.420 --> 00:07:34.480 and how it's doing physical ministry and literally virtual reality ministry at the same time in 00:07:34.480 --> 00:07:38.240 the middle of this COVID season. So what do you got? Tell me, tell me some stories. 00:07:38.820 --> 00:07:42.400 Yeah, it's been, it's been awesome and awesome ride. I'm so glad that I got into the 00:07:42.400 --> 00:07:48.420 digital ministry and VR ministry. I, I did not know what to expect. The only, the only, uh, 00:07:48.420 --> 00:07:53.220 template I had was really DJ and I really good friends with DJ now, but before I didn't know 00:07:53.220 --> 00:07:57.580 him from Adam, I just had heard about VR church and it just really intrigued me. And I was like, 00:07:57.640 --> 00:08:03.820 that is so cool. I just, I just jumped on the bandwagon, got a, got a quest, a headset from 00:08:03.820 --> 00:08:10.020 Oculus from Facebook. And, uh, and then I said to the church, I said, why don't we start a church 00:08:10.020 --> 00:08:13.900 campus? And people were really on board with it. They were excited. Again, things were going really 00:08:13.900 --> 00:08:18.880 well and church was growing. I think people were just excited to see expansion happen and reach more 00:08:18.880 --> 00:08:24.580 people across the world. So, uh, it was really cool too, that even the funding people just were so 00:08:24.580 --> 00:08:29.800 generous to donate to this specific project. And it doesn't cost of course that much to do it, 00:08:29.860 --> 00:08:34.020 but it was nice that people were really backing it with their support. They were really excited. So 00:08:34.020 --> 00:08:38.440 we launched the church, right? Basically we were going to do it earlier and we just weren't quite 00:08:38.440 --> 00:08:42.780 ready. And then COVID hit and we're like, you know what, we're not quite ready. Let's just do it. And 00:08:42.780 --> 00:08:48.340 we're glad we jumped in at the time that we did. And we were only on the alt space VR platform. It's 00:08:48.340 --> 00:08:54.600 just one of the mini VR. It's probably one of the big three, big four of the VR platforms. And that's 00:08:54.600 --> 00:08:59.280 the only one we're on right now, but, uh, it's been, it's been great. Uh, but there's a lot of 00:08:59.280 --> 00:09:04.080 overlap. We really, from the beginning wanted it to be somehow connected together. We didn't want 00:09:04.080 --> 00:09:10.300 it to be its own thing separate from Cornerstone, the IRL church in North Sacramento Valley. We 00:09:10.300 --> 00:09:15.500 wanted to be connected somehow, um, in a community and we weren't sure exactly how to do that. We've 00:09:15.500 --> 00:09:19.280 seen that I can talk more about as we go forward, some of the ways in which we've been able to see 00:09:19.280 --> 00:09:25.860 that vision come to fruition. Um, but we really, and we wanted it to be like, like a campus, like 00:09:25.860 --> 00:09:31.100 that you're a part that anybody comes to VR Cornerstone church, they're a part of the whole 00:09:31.100 --> 00:09:36.800 Cornerstone family. And we, we share a lot of things together. And, um, so anyway, uh, that 00:09:36.800 --> 00:09:41.040 was the real vision is to really draw people in connecting to Jesus, but also connect them 00:09:41.040 --> 00:09:47.260 to a larger sort of, uh, situation, a lot of larger body, larger fellowship that was going 00:09:47.260 --> 00:09:47.620 on. 00:09:48.140 --> 00:09:54.540 Did the genesis of this, like, was this you like having the forward vision excitement of 00:09:54.540 --> 00:09:59.580 virtual reality? You didn't even have a headset. Like were there volunteers that were excited 00:09:59.580 --> 00:10:06.460 or an elder board, somebody like who, who had the passionate idea to first say, why don't 00:10:06.460 --> 00:10:07.940 we do a church in virtual reality? 00:10:08.580 --> 00:10:11.700 Yeah, I'm, I'm probably the crazy one at our church and the congregants that they listen 00:10:11.700 --> 00:10:15.780 to this, they will definitely laugh at that. Cause I, I get these crazy ideas and out of the 00:10:15.780 --> 00:10:21.020 box. I just, I love the idea of, you know, of course I think you're fully on board with this. 00:10:21.080 --> 00:10:25.720 I'm really sure of that the mission never changes, but the methods can change and we just need to 00:10:25.720 --> 00:10:31.280 adapt and find out how we can reach people for Christ, uh, no matter where the, uh, the situation 00:10:31.280 --> 00:10:36.260 might be. So I've always been like pushing the envelope with the congregation and, and people 00:10:36.260 --> 00:10:40.600 resonated with that. And so when I brought it up, the elders were like, sure. And church was 00:10:40.600 --> 00:10:45.860 excited. At first, the people that were involved were mostly, uh, our teenagers. They were really 00:10:45.860 --> 00:10:51.320 excited. And now we've got, uh, a number of people that actually go to our in real life church and 00:10:51.320 --> 00:10:57.100 volunteer and participate also in the VR church in their different ages. So it's been cool to see 00:10:57.100 --> 00:11:03.180 the spectrum of, uh, diversity there too. So yeah, I was the one that kind of threw it out there. 00:11:03.220 --> 00:11:09.440 I remember it was a, um, you know what, it was a Christmas Eve service was the first time I actually 00:11:09.440 --> 00:11:13.380 revealed it. And I don't know why I chose Christmas Eve. I think I was just so excited. I just, I think 00:11:13.380 --> 00:11:19.740 I had just gotten my headset. So I actually used the headset as a, as a prop in my little Christmas 00:11:19.740 --> 00:11:24.200 Eve devotional. And I don't even remember what I said, to be honest. No, no one remembers the sermon 00:11:24.200 --> 00:11:29.720 after a few days of preaching. I don't even remember, but I do remember using the headset. And of course, 00:11:29.720 --> 00:11:34.080 everyone else remembered that too. So it's kind of bizarre seeing me walk around with a headset on 00:11:34.080 --> 00:11:39.240 stage, but that clicked with people. And I told them the vision and that's when people really 00:11:39.240 --> 00:11:44.700 started getting behind it and really were excited. So, you know, posting on social media has helped 00:11:44.700 --> 00:11:50.280 too. So they can see kind of what this is. There's still doubters and skeptics out there. Not that many 00:11:50.280 --> 00:11:54.840 that I hear from the church, but just people that post or respond to my social media, they see the 00:11:54.840 --> 00:12:00.760 avatars and they're kind of cartoonish on all space. And they're just like, is that, how can you really 00:12:00.760 --> 00:12:05.420 have church that way? Is that real? You know? And so there's just some apologetic kind of dialogue 00:12:05.420 --> 00:12:12.560 that happens on why this is really valid and it works and people are growing. So that's been fun too, 00:12:12.560 --> 00:12:20.460 to kind of see people that are real late adopters, even skeptics begin to move towards endorsing it 00:12:20.460 --> 00:12:27.840 and seeing it as a valid tool. So that's been cool. Awesome. The thing that makes you unique in this 00:12:27.840 --> 00:12:34.320 is that you're a mixture of physical and virtual reality. Like DJ's been doing virtual reality for 00:12:34.320 --> 00:12:43.460 three years and DJ's unique. And there's a handful of other VR planters that are coming out and starting 00:12:43.460 --> 00:12:51.080 to do this. And not that I'm the expert in that I know all 330,000 evangelical churches in America today, 00:12:51.080 --> 00:12:58.160 but I don't know of anybody else that's really doing this hybrid of physical, as well as being 00:12:58.160 --> 00:13:05.720 serious about virtual reality. So I'm just curious, like, what's the life of somebody in a physical 00:13:05.720 --> 00:13:11.540 church? What does that look like compared to like a virtual reality church? Where is it similar? 00:13:11.540 --> 00:13:20.180 Where is it different? Is virtual reality a fully functioning church? Like what? Tell me about kind of the 00:13:20.180 --> 00:13:23.760 comparison of the physical for you, the comparison of physical and virtual. 00:13:24.180 --> 00:13:32.200 Yeah. So, I mean, the basic elements of Christian discipleship, I think, are similar across the board, 00:13:32.280 --> 00:13:36.200 you know, no matter what the platform is. So I think that's because you can still have really engaging 00:13:37.200 --> 00:13:44.280 discussions and teachings and one-on-one sort of accountability relationships and conversations 00:13:44.280 --> 00:13:49.760 about deep things. So discipleship can happen in real life. And sometimes I've found even more, 00:13:49.840 --> 00:13:56.020 even more intensely in VR. People tend to be a little bit more open about the real stuff going on inside 00:13:56.020 --> 00:14:00.920 of them. So that's been kind of neat to see the benefit and beauty of digital ministry in that regard. 00:14:01.420 --> 00:14:08.120 So those basic discipleship elements are pretty similar. It is still a challenge. I mean, VR, 00:14:08.600 --> 00:14:14.080 you know, because it's so new in digital ministry, you know, I guess we're all sort of writing the book 00:14:14.080 --> 00:14:19.900 on it. We're still trying to figure out how does this work? And so, you know, getting people connected 00:14:19.900 --> 00:14:26.720 in a deep and robust way, individually, you have these really deep conversations, but getting them 00:14:26.720 --> 00:14:31.740 connected in a group is still a challenge. I think VR, I think VR Church and DJ does a great job. 00:14:32.100 --> 00:14:35.760 They have a prayer world after their services. And I've been to that. And it seems like people are 00:14:35.760 --> 00:14:39.640 really bonding. That's been pretty cool. Pastor Brock, I don't know if you ever talked to him. He's a 00:14:39.640 --> 00:14:46.140 great pastor in Michigan. He's got a great Discord server. They interact a lot. Jate Earhart, 00:14:46.340 --> 00:14:50.160 he does a great job with forming. So I think there's guys out there that are really starting 00:14:50.160 --> 00:14:54.740 to form community in terms of like the hybrid model, the way I've been trying to do it. And 00:14:54.740 --> 00:14:59.160 we're by no means perfect at it. We're still, you know, building the plane in midair. But, you know, 00:14:59.180 --> 00:15:05.340 we've had, of course, people from our congregation come into the VR campus. And so there's some overlap 00:15:05.340 --> 00:15:09.980 there. And people can, as they just dialogue and have conversations, I hear them, you know, 00:15:09.980 --> 00:15:16.980 sharing things that sort of bring the two worlds together. There's been a handful of our VR campus 00:15:16.980 --> 00:15:22.600 folks who just go to VR actually have been involved in our live stream for our in real life. So they'll 00:15:22.600 --> 00:15:28.680 watch that. They'll engage, comment, even help out. So in helping out and dialoguing with people on the 00:15:28.680 --> 00:15:34.540 comment feed. So that's been cool. Our Discord channel, you know, I'd like to see that become even 00:15:34.540 --> 00:15:39.240 more vibrant, but it's, you know, it's about a hundred people on there. It's decent. And there's 00:15:39.240 --> 00:15:46.220 both people from the VR campus on there and people from the in real life interacting. So that helps. 00:15:46.860 --> 00:15:52.900 We did something. Here's, I mean, some other ideas. We did this thing called Love Yuba Sutter Day. So 00:15:52.900 --> 00:15:59.240 I'm in the counties where we're like situated Yuba County in Sutter County, California. And so we go out 00:15:59.240 --> 00:16:03.220 and we take the Sunday off from church. And there's other churches in America have done this before 00:16:03.220 --> 00:16:07.520 and go out and just serve the community. So we thought, well, how are we going to do that with 00:16:07.520 --> 00:16:12.940 our VR church? Cause we basically do the same service essentially as we do, you know, in both 00:16:12.940 --> 00:16:18.400 camp, in both campuses. And so I just said, Hey guys, we're going to take the day off. You guys can 00:16:18.400 --> 00:16:23.860 come into the VR church and pray for those that are serving in Northern California. I'd also, it'd be 00:16:23.860 --> 00:16:28.460 great if you guys could go out and serve in your local cities and then tell us about it. So that was cool 00:16:28.460 --> 00:16:35.040 to see the in real life campus doing something, but the VR campus praying for them, um, doing their own 00:16:35.040 --> 00:16:41.220 ministry, uh, for Christ in their local cities. So that kind of brought us together a little bit. 00:16:41.220 --> 00:16:47.200 Um, you know, giving, we, you know, we talk, we always are talking about each other. So at the VR 00:16:47.200 --> 00:16:51.580 campus, I'm talking about the in real life and stuff that's happened and that they're praying for you 00:16:51.580 --> 00:16:57.320 and the same thing, uh, vice versa. In fact, uh, our business meeting, our annual business meeting 00:16:57.320 --> 00:17:03.080 for our in real life church, we're really the whole church. Uh, but it'll be, uh, in November 00:17:03.080 --> 00:17:08.580 and we're going to have some video testimonies of folks in the VR campus. They're going to just talk 00:17:08.580 --> 00:17:15.020 about how they've grown in Christ and how they've been blessed by the church and really thanking the 00:17:15.020 --> 00:17:20.500 in real life people for contributing and doing the work and, and, uh, thanking them for their 00:17:20.500 --> 00:17:26.320 prayers. So that kind of will have some overlap. Um, just trying, and whenever we talk, we just 00:17:26.320 --> 00:17:30.940 constantly talking about each other. We don't keep it separate. And, uh, I think there's some progress 00:17:30.940 --> 00:17:36.720 in, in some real connections, but it is still, there's still a gap there. And one of the things 00:17:36.720 --> 00:17:43.020 I'm hoping for is maybe with augmented reality advances in the future, there might be a way 00:17:43.020 --> 00:17:48.260 to kind of really bring the two together in real time, even where you, I don't know. I mean, 00:17:48.280 --> 00:17:53.640 envision, I was talking with DJ and pastor Brock and Jake, it's a while back. Uh, you know, if, 00:17:53.640 --> 00:17:58.580 if you could come into your church service in real life and, but yet you, I don't know if there's, 00:17:58.780 --> 00:18:02.460 you know, if the technology was cheap enough, or maybe you can see an image, maybe not everybody 00:18:02.460 --> 00:18:07.200 can have glasses, but maybe there's something on a screen somewhere that shows 00:18:07.200 --> 00:18:12.840 avatars, you know, sitting next to you. And then of course the avatars, maybe they'd have a screen 00:18:12.840 --> 00:18:17.660 in their facility. They can see the in real life church and they're all worshiping together. That 00:18:17.660 --> 00:18:22.120 would be, that would be pretty cool. I mean, that tech already exists, right? I feel like I just 00:18:22.120 --> 00:18:26.180 Yeah, I think it does. Well, the, the NBA is doing that right now. Right. And I was actually 00:18:26.180 --> 00:18:30.320 wondering how that kind of environment might play into the local church one day. And I think that's 00:18:30.320 --> 00:18:34.680 kind of a cool way. You know, you have the NBA has got the whole thing where they got virtual fans on 00:18:34.680 --> 00:18:38.880 screen, people who are watching from their devices or whatever else, but they're in tune with the game 00:18:38.880 --> 00:18:43.640 and watching. But if you can have that, like, uh, it's funny, my dad and I were asked, he was like, 00:18:43.700 --> 00:18:47.580 Oh, cause he's very old school. I was like, Ray, do you think, uh, do you, do you think it's a good 00:18:47.580 --> 00:18:52.160 thing? I said, dad, I think that's a great thing. I think the NBA needs to keep that and adapt that in, 00:18:52.160 --> 00:18:57.980 you know, to what, whatever comes next post COVID in terms of coming back in, because now you're giving 00:18:57.980 --> 00:19:03.200 young audiences who could never afford a ticket, an opportunity to be front row, you know, for, 00:19:03.300 --> 00:19:07.960 for a game, uh, even though it's virtual. And then the same way with church, I could absolutely see 00:19:07.960 --> 00:19:12.860 that working out Jason where you've got, you know, I don't know, like an led screen on your wall back 00:19:12.860 --> 00:19:17.920 there. That's just avatars, but they're, they're raising their hands up. Yeah. Yeah. I was watching 00:19:17.920 --> 00:19:22.960 a basketball, one of the pregames and they were, they beamed Isaiah Thomas who was in Atlanta, 00:19:22.960 --> 00:19:27.460 like into the bubble as a hologram and he's interviewing, I don't remember what coach it was 00:19:27.460 --> 00:19:32.060 or what player it was. I just remember Isaiah Thomas. And so, but like they're, they're figuring 00:19:32.060 --> 00:19:37.040 out how to, how to do this with the technology and 5g and like, it's the future is crazy, which is why 00:19:37.040 --> 00:19:41.980 when, when we're talking about redefining community, even in the virtual reality, stuff like that, 00:19:41.980 --> 00:19:46.180 it's like, people aren't comfortable with that. It's like, we got to get comfortable. The pendulum 00:19:46.180 --> 00:19:51.080 is shifting more and more of this way. This isn't the thing that you fight. This is the thing that, 00:19:51.180 --> 00:19:54.820 that you work through, but Hey Ray, I know you, you had some questions, but what are you thinking? 00:19:55.000 --> 00:19:59.620 Jason, just a couple of things you had said that I want to make sure, uh, and ask. So you talked 00:19:59.620 --> 00:20:04.140 about how folks in, in real life, right? IRL, how they're starting to engage more with the folks 00:20:04.140 --> 00:20:08.100 online. Were folks so captivated by the vision that you cast that they were like, man, I got to go 00:20:08.100 --> 00:20:12.480 get a headset like immediately. And then they went out and went and got some cause I'm picturing folks 00:20:12.480 --> 00:20:17.780 in church and that's not where they're at initially to go out and just go drop on a $300 headset 00:20:17.780 --> 00:20:22.740 because they're so captivated by vision, man. Tell me about that. Well, most of course did not go out 00:20:22.740 --> 00:20:27.040 and buy a headset so that I don't want to overstate it. Yeah, but there were, we've had, I think there's 00:20:27.040 --> 00:20:32.400 probably, and it's a small, I mean, our church, our campus, our VR campus is probably only in the 00:20:32.400 --> 00:20:37.420 average about 30 people. So it's a small campus, which is still great. Um, but so, you know, 00:20:37.800 --> 00:20:44.320 there's only been about maybe, I would think six, seven from the in real life that have, uh, 00:20:44.660 --> 00:20:49.900 participated in some fashion and, and went out, you know, got headsets. So that, that was cool. 00:20:49.980 --> 00:20:54.620 Yeah. So I guess they were captivated by the, uh, interfacing between, you know, the technological 00:20:54.620 --> 00:20:58.420 advancements and the mission of Christ and see how we could reach more people. I think people are 00:20:58.420 --> 00:21:03.200 super excited when we share that we've had people from all over the world come in. Um, they have an 00:21:03.200 --> 00:21:08.060 all stay, but most of the time people come in and they, they sit in and participate, you know, 00:21:08.060 --> 00:21:12.440 in the whole service, which I'm always, I'm always stunned by. You'd think that they would be bored 00:21:12.440 --> 00:21:17.340 and they would pop in, pop out. Cause it's so easy to just jump around in VR. They sit there and they, 00:21:17.380 --> 00:21:22.060 they receive the whole message. And when I tell people that in our church, like, yeah, people are 00:21:22.060 --> 00:21:27.140 hearing the gospel and they're, a lot of them are not Christians. We've had a ton of conversations 00:21:27.140 --> 00:21:32.120 with a lot of unbelievers because they feel comfortable coming into a VR church where they 00:21:32.120 --> 00:21:38.480 probably would maybe never come into a brick and mortar church. So it's been awesome for, for 00:21:38.480 --> 00:21:43.540 permission. Yeah. We discussed that with DJ, the concept of avatar as like creating a safe space 00:21:43.540 --> 00:21:48.340 for spiritual conversations. Do you have any examples of, man, we, we really like took it to 00:21:48.340 --> 00:21:51.360 the next level of this person. Obviously you don't have to give a name away or anything like that. 00:21:51.360 --> 00:21:54.540 Yeah. Well, I mean, so what, what, what the coolest thing that happens is when they, 00:21:54.540 --> 00:21:58.800 you know, connect, I mean, we've had a lot of conversations like after the church, in fact, 00:21:58.880 --> 00:22:04.280 a few weeks ago, an atheist who had met before at one of our Bible studies on VR after the church 00:22:04.280 --> 00:22:08.720 service, he wanted to talk to me. So we had an hour long conversation, you know, about deep stuff. 00:22:08.800 --> 00:22:12.480 I mean, he obviously has got a lot of questions as an atheist. So stuff like that's happened. But one 00:22:12.480 --> 00:22:17.720 of the coolest things is when people have started to come and then we connect on discord. I've got a 00:22:17.720 --> 00:22:23.540 person that over the six months now that I've been doing the church, we've been having an ongoing, 00:22:23.540 --> 00:22:30.380 I mean, I look back and there's like thousands of messages about where they're going with their 00:22:30.380 --> 00:22:33.680 faith. They're trying to figure out, do they really believe in Christ? And they're asking a 00:22:33.680 --> 00:22:40.120 lot of good apologetic questions. So stuff like that, that's really exciting to me. That really 00:22:40.120 --> 00:22:45.480 gets me up out of bed in the morning. And I think that's, that's what's exciting to the church here 00:22:45.480 --> 00:22:50.340 because we're trying to reach people, but it seems harder and harder to do it in the physical 00:22:50.340 --> 00:22:55.720 spaces of life. You know, it's a different era. People don't sit on their porches and talk anymore. 00:22:55.720 --> 00:23:00.280 Right. They close their garage after work and they go and watch Netflix. It's just harder to get 00:23:00.280 --> 00:23:06.300 connected with, with your neighbors, but on VR and digital, it's like, it's just amazing how easy it 00:23:06.300 --> 00:23:11.500 is. And so I think people really like that. Um, so yeah, there's a lot of excitement in that regard. 00:23:11.900 --> 00:23:16.100 What do you think is the, cause I love that you're referring to this as the virtual reality campus. 00:23:16.100 --> 00:23:21.740 I like that. What do you think is the biggest challenge of translating the IRL campus to the 00:23:21.740 --> 00:23:28.200 VR campus? You mean explaining to the folks, uh, in the, maybe it's, maybe it's in strategy, 00:23:28.200 --> 00:23:31.540 maybe it's in development of mission, but what's something that you're like, man, we do this in 00:23:31.540 --> 00:23:37.340 IRL. I am still struggling with how to do this in VR. Yeah. So, you know, some of the key elements 00:23:37.340 --> 00:23:45.740 historically in our ancient faith, right. Of community is communion, uh, baptism, um, you know, 00:23:45.820 --> 00:23:49.780 church and some would argue, and people don't like to hear this term anymore, but church discipline, 00:23:49.940 --> 00:23:54.340 right? I mean, and all that means is a loving way to help shepherd the flock so they don't fall off 00:23:54.340 --> 00:23:58.200 the deep end and get eaten by wolves. Right. So you're trying to kind of help shepherd people. 00:23:58.680 --> 00:24:04.640 Those are areas that I think are still a little bit challenging. Uh, church discipline has been 00:24:04.640 --> 00:24:09.800 challenging to do even in real life, but, uh, communion and baptism. I haven't figured that 00:24:09.800 --> 00:24:14.460 out. Although this designer who's helping us with his new world, he thinks he can design all these, 00:24:14.460 --> 00:24:20.620 uh, you know, loaves of bread and communion cups. And I think I never would have thought doing that 00:24:20.620 --> 00:24:26.320 before, uh, until live stream happened with our in real life folks. And we were celebrating community. 00:24:26.320 --> 00:24:31.920 I said, go to your fridge, get some juice, get a cracker, and let's do this together. And I never 00:24:31.920 --> 00:24:36.600 had thought about doing that before. And so now that everybody seems okay with that, we're like, 00:24:36.900 --> 00:24:41.360 well, shoot, let's do that on VR. And so then you can have that bond of communion together, 00:24:41.360 --> 00:24:47.440 uh, baptism, DJs already done baptisms. And I, I'm of, uh, I know different traditions have 00:24:47.440 --> 00:24:52.400 different views on this, but I, I think that's legit. I think that's a real expression, uh, of a 00:24:52.400 --> 00:24:57.700 testimony of a witness before others of their faith in Christ. But I know my other friends who have 00:24:57.700 --> 00:25:02.360 different views on that feel like, man, you can't do a virtual baptism. That's, you know, 00:25:02.380 --> 00:25:06.260 virtual communion for some, if they have different views on communion, that would be hard. But for us, 00:25:06.260 --> 00:25:11.300 we're a little more, a little more open on those things, but those bond the community together. 00:25:11.300 --> 00:25:16.800 But I think we're still struggling to see some of those ancient elements of fellowship and community 00:25:16.800 --> 00:25:21.480 together happening in VR. So that's where we're challenged. I could see how that would be the 00:25:21.480 --> 00:25:25.280 case across the board with all sacraments, right? Like, and especially as we talk about 00:25:25.280 --> 00:25:30.120 specifically within church, like doing a VR wedding, you know, I know that once, once upon a time, 00:25:30.160 --> 00:25:34.180 right? Like zoom weddings and this kind of thing we're thought of as unheard of. And yet here we 00:25:34.180 --> 00:25:38.860 are in COVID in, in the midst of, well, I guess this is the only way we've got. So yeah. 00:25:39.120 --> 00:25:41.480 Yeah. VR weddings. I hadn't thought about that. That would be interesting. 00:25:42.440 --> 00:25:44.600 Now a VR funeral, that's where I draw the line. 00:25:44.780 --> 00:25:46.760 That's where you draw the line. That's too much. 00:25:46.760 --> 00:25:52.840 It's too much. You actually have to be near the body in order to do the funeral. You have to 00:25:52.840 --> 00:26:00.780 breathe the same air molecules that are within the dead body for the funeral. I'm making fun of all 00:26:00.780 --> 00:26:01.460 the other conversations. 00:26:01.460 --> 00:26:03.020 Westminster catechism, I think somewhere. 00:26:03.100 --> 00:26:05.440 Yeah. Something like that. Yeah. It's got, it's got to be in there. 00:26:06.240 --> 00:26:09.720 It's got charged. I'm afraid in the era of deep fakes and all that stuff. We're going to have 00:26:09.720 --> 00:26:10.600 resurrections. 00:26:10.860 --> 00:26:11.500 Oh no. 00:26:12.140 --> 00:26:14.200 That's going to be some scary stuff. All right. 00:26:14.460 --> 00:26:16.440 Man, you took us places I didn't even want to go. 00:26:18.500 --> 00:26:19.260 I had to. 00:26:19.920 --> 00:26:24.860 Hey, so, so tell me, like, is it, is it similar demographics? Like, are you reaching the same 00:26:24.860 --> 00:26:30.380 type of person? Is it, are they Yuba people in virtual reality? How far does it spread? 00:26:30.520 --> 00:26:34.940 Like what, what are you seeing? Like, who are your ones? Who are you reaching and engaging 00:26:34.940 --> 00:26:37.000 virtually as opposed to physically? 00:26:37.360 --> 00:26:43.180 Yeah. I've only, I've only seen one Yuba City person in there. So mostly it's, it's folks just 00:26:43.180 --> 00:26:48.240 throughout the world. Mostly people in North America. We've got Canadians and United States 00:26:48.240 --> 00:26:54.300 citizens there. And I don't know if that's, you know, the timeframe we're at. Allspace isn't 00:26:54.300 --> 00:26:58.760 probably the most popular platform at this point. Probably VRChat. I don't know, Ray, you probably 00:26:58.760 --> 00:27:05.400 know. VRChat is probably the biggest, although it's had some issues lately. But anyway, as far as age 00:27:05.400 --> 00:27:11.860 range, that's been pretty diverse. Allspace is, you know, most of the platform, like VRChat 00:27:11.860 --> 00:27:19.580 is probably mostly millennials and younger. Allspace, you've got really the spectrum. And maybe, 00:27:19.760 --> 00:27:24.520 you know, it's kind of like Allspace is the Facebook and VRChat is kind of like the Snapchat 00:27:24.520 --> 00:27:31.040 or Instagram. So Allspace is not quite as cool. But there's still a lot of younger people that 00:27:31.040 --> 00:27:34.920 come in there. So, but it's, it's neat because I've got, I got a guy who was in there. I think 00:27:34.920 --> 00:27:39.200 he was in his seventies. And then I've got, you know, some teenagers that come in and then 00:27:39.200 --> 00:27:44.920 all in between. So different, you know, different backgrounds, different races, different, in 00:27:44.920 --> 00:27:50.560 some different countries. We've got a guy that comes regularly from Estonia, you know, in Eastern 00:27:50.560 --> 00:27:55.180 Europe. And that's like one in the morning, I think, or midnight that he comes to our church 00:27:55.180 --> 00:28:00.320 service. And he comes pretty much every week. And he's still not a believer. He's just processing 00:28:00.320 --> 00:28:07.200 through the faith. So that's been cool. Yeah. So it's, it's pretty diverse, I think. Yeah. 00:28:07.200 --> 00:28:12.820 More so than, than our in real life church, just because the nature of, you know, where we live. 00:28:12.820 --> 00:28:17.680 And that, that's the takeaway statement right there. Yeah. Um, it's, it's more, more, more 00:28:17.680 --> 00:28:24.500 diverse, um, digitally because your physical isn't, isn't as diverse. Right. Yeah. Do you 00:28:24.500 --> 00:28:32.420 see like DJ reports, um, 80 to 85% lostness attending VR churches? You know, are you seeing 00:28:32.420 --> 00:28:39.280 that extreme level of, of people who are unsaved kind of checking out a service to get a feel 00:28:39.280 --> 00:28:43.820 or checking out church? Like, do you see that? Or is, is it a little more tamer? 00:28:44.280 --> 00:28:49.180 Yeah. No, I, I, I, I don't know. I've never actually thought through exactly percentages. I 00:28:49.180 --> 00:28:53.540 mean, there do seem to be folks, we have a Q and a at the end, um, and they can just ask 00:28:53.540 --> 00:28:57.800 any questions. So some of them sound like they're asking pretty robust questions. Like 00:28:57.800 --> 00:29:03.140 they've got to have some, uh, connectivity to the church at some level. But I think what I'm 00:29:03.140 --> 00:29:07.540 seeing probably, even though there are a number of completely lost folks that have never 00:29:07.540 --> 00:29:13.000 experienced church, um, a lot of the folks are de-churched. That's what I would probably, 00:29:13.060 --> 00:29:18.200 I would probably say there's more de-churched because even calling it church, that's what 00:29:18.200 --> 00:29:21.640 was strategic as well. Not only be, you know, philosophically, I do think it's a part of the 00:29:21.640 --> 00:29:27.020 church. I don't think it's just a set separate pair of church ministry, but, but also calling 00:29:27.020 --> 00:29:33.060 it church is, uh, strategic from a marketing perspective, right? People know generally what 00:29:33.060 --> 00:29:40.060 church is. They may not like church, but they're drawn to that, right? A church online. And I can 00:29:40.060 --> 00:29:45.940 jump in, jump out, no harm, no foul. And so I do think that de-churched people tend towards, 00:29:45.940 --> 00:29:50.980 uh, you know, our churches, you know, probably DJ's mind. So you could consider them unbelievers, 00:29:50.980 --> 00:29:56.600 I suppose. So that would be lost. Uh, that would go into his percentage. So yeah, I would agree with 00:29:56.600 --> 00:30:02.980 them there that 85% are de-churched or lost or, uh, completely never connected to the church. 00:30:03.600 --> 00:30:08.160 Well, if, even if that's a arguable statement, these are people that are not coming back to the 00:30:08.160 --> 00:30:12.480 building. Right. Because ultimately you're tapping into people through this virtual reality 00:30:12.480 --> 00:30:18.080 that aren't setting foot in the physical space, whether it's de-churched or they just don't feel 00:30:18.080 --> 00:30:23.060 comfortable coming in and having questions and kind of having this level of conversation that, 00:30:23.060 --> 00:30:30.240 that's doesn't exist. And so, you know, love some of the outward facing and, and the, um, you know, 00:30:30.240 --> 00:30:34.480 the evangelism, transparent opportunities that you guys are getting in virtual reality. Like this is 00:30:34.480 --> 00:30:39.680 phenomenal. It really is. I mean, it's, it's been a highlight in a really terrible year. It's been 00:30:39.680 --> 00:30:45.800 the highlight. It's, this is a great thing. So I'm, I'm glad we got into it. Tell me more about the, 00:30:45.800 --> 00:30:51.080 this diverse community. I mean, you've got somebody from Estonia coming in. I can only imagine just 00:30:51.080 --> 00:30:56.740 because, you know, the world is open, open up, but it also feels super niche to a degree because not 00:30:56.740 --> 00:31:01.620 everybody's on the VR train yet. Right. Like this is still somewhat cutting edge technology in the 00:31:01.620 --> 00:31:05.600 sense of not everybody's ready to go buy an Oculus or this kind of thing. So talk a little bit more 00:31:05.600 --> 00:31:10.040 about that as far as how that's been interacting with people and connecting with them. Yeah. I mean, 00:31:10.060 --> 00:31:14.860 they're definitely, uh, because it's a niche kind of, uh, situation, you know, you can get, 00:31:15.440 --> 00:31:19.060 you can start it. You can really get into a conversation with any of them. If you talk about 00:31:19.100 --> 00:31:23.460 technology or talk about, uh, Oculus, you talk about your, what headset do you have? I mean, 00:31:23.460 --> 00:31:28.260 sometimes they might be a little bit gun shy about talking about other topics, maybe even religious 00:31:28.260 --> 00:31:33.240 topics, but boy, you start talking about technology, man, you could be on, you could talk with these 00:31:33.240 --> 00:31:39.440 guys for hours. So that is cool. And that, that makes this, all these VR communities, uh, already 00:31:39.440 --> 00:31:44.780 bonded, uh, no matter what their belief about God is they're, they're bonded around the technology. 00:31:44.780 --> 00:31:50.120 So that's, that's an entry level or entry way into conversation to evangelistically. So that's kind 00:31:50.120 --> 00:31:55.160 of neat. Um, but yeah, I think it's still is pretty, it is still pretty small percentage-wise 00:31:55.160 --> 00:31:59.740 in terms of the overall population of the world, how many people are connected to it. But I, I really 00:31:59.740 --> 00:32:07.520 think even though VR kind of bumped up for what was back to 2017, 16, I think I can't remember when 00:32:07.520 --> 00:32:12.900 Facebook really went for it and it looked like it was going to go off the, off the rails, you know, 00:32:12.980 --> 00:32:18.520 and then it sort of diminished. But I, I think, um, with the Oculus two coming out and as the price 00:32:18.520 --> 00:32:25.100 point goes down, uh, they disconnect, they're trying to keep it away from a lot of wired to the, to the 00:32:25.100 --> 00:32:30.080 PC, you know, even though that's a better experience, most people are not gamers and they don't have all 00:32:30.080 --> 00:32:36.340 that equipment. So if you get them a two, $300, which is still high, but I think it's going to 00:32:36.340 --> 00:32:42.340 still take off. I think you're going to see VR continue to expand. And I think most, then more 00:32:42.340 --> 00:32:47.400 people will come into VR churches. So I think church, I think churches, I don't want to be, 00:32:47.940 --> 00:32:51.260 I guess I'm a preacher, but I don't want to preach it, all the pastors out there and make them feel 00:32:51.260 --> 00:32:57.340 bad. I, you know, this is a total, uh, it's a freedom. If they want to do it great, if they don't, 00:32:57.420 --> 00:33:02.420 that's fine. But I do think that this is the time to get involved with it. I think it's just going 00:33:02.420 --> 00:33:07.640 to blow open in the next five to 10 years. And, uh, I think churches really should, should get 00:33:07.640 --> 00:33:12.500 involved with it. There's just so much opportunity. So I don't know if you ever watched Pastor Brock, 00:33:12.540 --> 00:33:17.780 have you ever watched Pastor Brock's Twitch's, uh, Twitch feeds where he goes into VR chat and just 00:33:17.780 --> 00:33:19.420 has conversations evangelistically? 00:33:19.420 --> 00:33:25.960 If you haven't, it's one of my favorite things to watch. I subscribed to him because I love it. And I 00:33:25.960 --> 00:33:33.100 can't remember his, I can't remember his Twitch. I think it's twitch.tv slash Pastor Brock VR, but he 00:33:33.100 --> 00:33:38.720 just, it's amazing the conversations that he's able to get into because people are open to talking about 00:33:38.720 --> 00:33:45.560 deep things. And the evangelist, it's just, I've not seen anything like it in our culture, in real 00:33:45.560 --> 00:33:51.140 life. Yeah. You'd be lucky if you go out in the streets of wherever you live to have one pretty 00:33:51.140 --> 00:33:57.720 decent conversation about Christ. Right. But in VR, it's like every time he gets on, it's, it's 00:33:57.720 --> 00:34:03.300 amazing. The questions these folks are asking. And anyway, so I, I think that churches just need to 00:34:03.300 --> 00:34:07.720 say, see that that is real. Like there is a huge mission field and it's only going to get bigger. 00:34:07.720 --> 00:34:12.260 Were you, cause you're, you're talking about lead pastors needing to get into this area. Pastors 00:34:12.260 --> 00:34:18.280 need to understand. Yeah. I, in this COVID season, I've had two pastors say to me, we want to launch 00:34:18.280 --> 00:34:23.180 a virtual reality campus. So the idea is even spreading through and we're helping them figure 00:34:23.180 --> 00:34:29.200 it out. Here's what I want to know. Like, were you, so you didn't own a VR headset. You said that 00:34:29.200 --> 00:34:35.360 earlier. Yeah. Were you in this culture, like the discord, the Twitch, like was, is this native 00:34:35.360 --> 00:34:41.860 to you or you just dove into this in COVID, learned it and planted a church in, in these 00:34:41.860 --> 00:34:47.020 communities? Well, I've always enjoyed technology and I, and I, I guess I'm a little bit geeky, 00:34:47.020 --> 00:34:51.120 I guess. That's, it's cool now to be a nerd. Right. So I, I've always been that angled that 00:34:51.120 --> 00:34:57.120 way. Uh, but no, I've not been, uh, not been that at all connected to any of those types of 00:34:57.120 --> 00:35:03.320 environments. Like Jade, Jade is like a master at discord and, and online. No, I'm, I'm completely 00:35:03.320 --> 00:35:08.800 not. And so it was literally reading. I think I read, read about DJ and I think Christianity 00:35:08.800 --> 00:35:14.120 today. And I was like, that's amazing. What a cool thing. And I just started looking online 00:35:14.120 --> 00:35:18.220 and doing what you do, going Google and seeing what, what's out there. And, and I thought, 00:35:18.220 --> 00:35:23.160 I'm just going to do it. Bite the bullet, get a, get a headset and jump in. I think my 00:35:23.160 --> 00:35:28.580 first experience was in VR church. I visited there and I was, and I was blown away. I was 00:35:28.580 --> 00:35:33.920 like, this is the most amazing church service ever. So cool. So, and then from there I just 00:35:33.920 --> 00:35:38.580 went hog wild with it, you know? So yeah, I didn't have any. So yeah, for those pastors 00:35:38.580 --> 00:35:44.280 out there that feel like, man, you know, these guys are way beyond me and I just don't have 00:35:44.280 --> 00:35:47.760 the knowledge. It, it, it really is not complicated. It's just, it's just, 00:35:48.220 --> 00:35:52.820 it's not. So, and it is, I will say it is, there are some elements that, that, you know, 00:35:52.880 --> 00:35:57.140 I've been challenged by, but I, you know, most staff, most pastors are going to have somebody 00:35:57.140 --> 00:36:02.380 on staff or maybe a volunteer. I've been blessed. We've got a director of operations that 00:36:02.380 --> 00:36:08.540 she basically does all that stuff for me now at both campuses, you know, live stream, 00:36:09.100 --> 00:36:15.480 all the alt space stuff. So I'm blessed right now. But that wasn't the case when I first started. 00:36:15.480 --> 00:36:19.400 So those pastors that feel like they don't have that person still jump in. And then as you get 00:36:19.400 --> 00:36:23.780 into it, you'll find somebody, there'll be somebody that's inspired by the vision that has 00:36:23.780 --> 00:36:29.300 some techie skills and they can set up your PowerPoint slides on, in all space. Cause that's the stuff 00:36:29.300 --> 00:36:31.980 where I'm like, I don't want to deal with that. But yeah. 00:36:32.280 --> 00:36:38.400 Your operations director handles everything from the physical building to broadcast to all VR. 00:36:38.820 --> 00:36:41.780 She's pretty amazing. She, she just has the ability to just 00:36:41.780 --> 00:36:47.200 navigate all in the social media for both and discord community connections. She does all that 00:36:47.200 --> 00:36:52.060 stuff. Wow. So I've, and that's been recent because I didn't have her at the very beginning. So we hired 00:36:52.060 --> 00:36:57.780 her four months, I don't know, three months ago. And that's been, it's like, yes, it's been awesome. 00:36:58.340 --> 00:37:02.700 So I'm not going to ask her name because if other people heard it, she'd have a great job. 00:37:02.860 --> 00:37:04.620 Can't let her get her resume out there. 00:37:04.680 --> 00:37:08.940 Not going to do that with much respect. Go to the website. You can probably figure it out on your 00:37:08.940 --> 00:37:13.500 own, but no, that that's incredible. You don't like that. That's almost like the unicorn. You don't 00:37:13.500 --> 00:37:19.960 find people with, with those, those giftings easy. So, so well done with that. I even wanted to build 00:37:19.960 --> 00:37:25.420 on it a little bit and start to talk about maybe like volunteers. Like you mentioned some of the 00:37:25.420 --> 00:37:31.040 physical volunteers are starting to serve in virtual reality. What does that look like? Was it difficult to 00:37:31.040 --> 00:37:36.860 kind of cast that vision? Were there people that had an understanding of the culture or are you having 00:37:36.860 --> 00:37:43.000 to train on VR culture at the same time? Like what, what is the volunteer onboarding and what does 00:37:43.000 --> 00:37:49.120 some of those processes look like? Yeah. So it's one, one case in point, a guy who is, I think he's in 00:37:49.120 --> 00:37:55.020 his, is he in his 50, maybe high fifties, low sixties. And, but he just has a great heart for 00:37:55.020 --> 00:38:00.660 ministry. He loves to teach the word of God, loves people, but no, no technology. I mean, 00:38:00.660 --> 00:38:07.220 nothing technological. And, but he just really caught that vision of the opportunities to reach 00:38:07.220 --> 00:38:11.540 people and to minister to them. And so he went out and got an Oculus go because that was the cheapest 00:38:11.540 --> 00:38:17.900 one. And, and I think they discontinued that one now, but he got the go and he jumped in. I don't 00:38:17.900 --> 00:38:23.160 know, five months ago, four months ago. And he does, he helps lead the Bible study on Wednesday nights. 00:38:23.320 --> 00:38:28.000 He'll go out, he'll get up and do prayer on the service or announcements. We got a number of people 00:38:28.000 --> 00:38:33.040 that do that. So yeah. And then there were some teenagers that were like super native to all of 00:38:33.040 --> 00:38:39.180 this and they were, that was easy, but, but it's neat to see guys like that who just really love 00:38:39.180 --> 00:38:44.140 people and want to see them know Jesus and the hope of Christ. And he's like, I can put up 200 bucks 00:38:44.140 --> 00:38:49.660 for a go and jump in. And, and again, all space, it makes it, you know, these platforms for the most 00:38:49.660 --> 00:38:54.260 part, they make it pretty easy for people to, you know, there's a little bit of a learning curve, 00:38:54.260 --> 00:38:59.300 but you know, you give it a half hour and it's, it's just not that complicated. You just hang out 00:38:59.300 --> 00:39:04.640 with people and talk to them. I mean, it's not, so that's, that's a pretty cool story about somebody 00:39:04.640 --> 00:39:11.600 that had like zero, like he's in his low sixties. Yeah. I had nothing technological about him, 00:39:11.600 --> 00:39:18.200 but he, he's in it. He does it every week. So. Is your typical corner stoner, is it more of the 00:39:18.200 --> 00:39:23.320 sixties guy or is it more of the, the 20 something that's in that culture that's being, being the 00:39:23.320 --> 00:39:28.160 missionary? So we're, we're actually pretty evenly split now. It was at the beginning, it was mostly 00:39:28.160 --> 00:39:33.220 probably fifties and above. And now we've got quite a lot of young people and young families and, 00:39:33.280 --> 00:39:41.500 and some millennials. So it's, it's kind of grown over time, but yeah. So I guess that's why the 00:39:41.500 --> 00:39:45.960 diversity is there in our volunteer base. You know, we've got, you know, director of operations, 00:39:45.960 --> 00:39:50.140 she's in her, you know, low thirties, but then we've got, like I said, volunteers there in their 00:39:50.140 --> 00:39:56.520 sixties. Now it's all of this plus church online, or is this your church online? Like is VR it? 00:39:56.880 --> 00:40:01.800 No, we do church online. So we do live stream and, uh, and we have other video content that we put out 00:40:01.800 --> 00:40:06.000 stuff like that, but it's all, yeah. That's a lot. Cause I know we've been focusing on this 00:40:06.000 --> 00:40:09.480 particular thing, but that's a lot. Cause that's, that's running three sites now, 00:40:09.480 --> 00:40:15.720 like in terms of multi-site church. And it's a church of 300 people. I mean, this is like, 00:40:15.740 --> 00:40:22.820 like the, the resources that you're pouring into this, even, even just time equity is, is phenomenal. 00:40:23.200 --> 00:40:27.960 So, I mean, I don't, I don't know if that's forward vision, uh, just seeing the road ahead 00:40:27.960 --> 00:40:32.400 and pivoting that way, but like, just. Yeah. And it hasn't, I guess it hasn't felt, uh, 00:40:32.620 --> 00:40:38.020 I think because I just, I do the exact same sermon. So, you know, it's just like opening another 00:40:38.020 --> 00:40:42.000 search service, uh, you know, like a lot of pastors, they might, Hey, I want to go from one 00:40:42.000 --> 00:40:46.620 to two services, two to three services. That's all we did. And, um, but you know, there is some 00:40:46.620 --> 00:40:54.060 equity time and some money, but it hasn't been, it hasn't been that, uh, over overbearing. And I 00:40:54.060 --> 00:40:59.020 think because of the, when you see the fruit, right. And you see the excitement of the mission being 00:40:59.020 --> 00:41:03.540 accomplished, uh, it just gives you this net, this energy, right. It's supernatural energy. 00:41:04.140 --> 00:41:08.300 I think that's, what's happening is that people are just excited. And so that they, 00:41:08.400 --> 00:41:14.200 they want to give their time and their money to that. So I think that's, what's kept it sustained 00:41:14.200 --> 00:41:20.360 is that it really is. People really are connecting with Christ. So pretty exciting. 00:41:21.200 --> 00:41:26.040 That's, that's great. When, when, when you first, so you read, you read this, I just, I want to come 00:41:26.040 --> 00:41:32.300 back to this cause I love the fact that you birthed this, you know, relatively quickly out of the COVID 00:41:32.300 --> 00:41:39.960 season here. You read this article in Christianity today, DJ Soto. Yeah. How long between that point 00:41:39.960 --> 00:41:47.120 and you actually like launched a service? Uh, it probably, it probably was, uh, at least eight 00:41:47.120 --> 00:41:53.380 months. Yeah. I think it was, I think it was in the summer of 2019 that I read that. And I remember 00:41:53.380 --> 00:41:57.860 telling, I remember reading it. Uh, I was eating a snack at the dinner table there and reading this 00:41:57.860 --> 00:42:02.920 article. And I, I think instantly I said something to my wife who was in the kitchen there and I, or 00:42:02.920 --> 00:42:07.760 somewhere, I can't remember where she was. And I, and I said, and I said, this pastor, he's baptizing 00:42:07.760 --> 00:42:13.780 people in virtual reality. And I just want, you know, I was just like, this is, and we had a long 00:42:13.780 --> 00:42:21.360 talk about that's so crazy and revolutionary and what's that mean and how does that work? And, and so 00:42:21.360 --> 00:42:26.360 that, that conversation, it just led to a bunch of conversations with her and so many other people 00:42:26.360 --> 00:42:33.240 in the church and about just the viability in the, and, and, and, and, and should this be done? Should 00:42:33.240 --> 00:42:37.900 this be, is this something God wants? And I think enough people just got, as I told people, they were 00:42:37.900 --> 00:42:43.920 just like, yeah. And so it just, it just kind of took, took fire from there leading to the Christmas 00:42:43.920 --> 00:42:51.100 Eve service and the headset and, and then people were excited. So I think we had, and I mean, we're 00:42:51.100 --> 00:42:55.520 small, we're a small time situation here. We're not, you're not talking to Andy Stanley. So our church 00:42:55.520 --> 00:43:01.200 is small. And, but I think we had five people donated about $5,000 right there at that end of 00:43:01.200 --> 00:43:06.340 that Christmas season in January towards this effort. And then the elders, since they've seen 00:43:06.340 --> 00:43:11.920 that the, what's been done, the elders are like, let's, let's put more money to this and more money 00:43:11.920 --> 00:43:17.480 to digital where before, you know, digital was like, I don't even think we even had any money. I don't 00:43:17.480 --> 00:43:21.960 think we had any money associated with it. I don't know what we were doing. We weren't even doing 00:43:21.960 --> 00:43:26.700 live. Yeah. We weren't even doing live stream until, uh, until all this happened. Isn't that crazy? 00:43:27.340 --> 00:43:31.700 Yeah. It's funny. Cause it doesn't seem that crazy because people, you know, we talk about this 00:43:31.700 --> 00:43:36.140 in terms of pastoral leadership, but people really do want to give to vision, right? Like they really 00:43:36.140 --> 00:43:41.220 do want to give towards seeing their kids or their grandkids reach. And so when they see guys like you, 00:43:41.220 --> 00:43:46.960 Jason, taking steps forward in that direction, bold steps, they may think, man, I don't care what it 00:43:46.960 --> 00:43:50.780 costs, man. That's going to reach my kids. That's going to reach my grandkids. That's going to reach 00:43:50.780 --> 00:43:55.200 the next generation. Yeah. I'll sacrifice. I'll give whatever it takes to that. 00:43:55.700 --> 00:44:01.120 It's been cool. We even started, uh, Jade Earhart and started this thing called God and gaming. 00:44:01.820 --> 00:44:06.940 And again, one of those situations, I, I, I, I'm not, uh, you know, there's nothing new under the sun. 00:44:07.140 --> 00:44:12.580 So I just beg, borrow and steal. So I said, Jade, that is a great idea. So we started our, 00:44:12.580 --> 00:44:18.320 what we call GG, uh, good God gaming. So we, we actually started that. And again, people were, 00:44:19.640 --> 00:44:24.100 people, especially in certain age groups are a little bit like, that's weird. Is that even, 00:44:24.480 --> 00:44:29.760 is, you know, is that even like biblically, you know, can God, can God bless you playing video games 00:44:29.760 --> 00:44:34.300 and doing a Bible study? But at the same time, they're like, I want to see my, my kids reached, 00:44:34.700 --> 00:44:38.920 you know, I want to see, I want to see the next generation reach for Christ. And so people have 00:44:38.920 --> 00:44:42.060 been excited about it. So we started, we're doing one right now. We're going to start a second one. 00:44:42.460 --> 00:44:48.420 And these are things I never, ever, ever, ever would have thought of a year ago. I mean, 00:44:48.520 --> 00:44:48.800 Oh yeah. 00:44:49.880 --> 00:44:53.080 This is not how I was trained, like in seminary. 00:44:53.420 --> 00:44:57.080 Well, growing up in nineties, Christian cancel culture, where they were telling us to throw away 00:44:57.080 --> 00:45:00.720 Mortal Kombat. Now they're like, no man, go reach those kids with Mortal Kombat. 00:45:00.900 --> 00:45:01.980 It's crazy, man. 00:45:02.700 --> 00:45:07.020 Yeah. I was, was having this conversation the other day, like through Stadia, we're, we're doing digital 00:45:07.020 --> 00:45:12.020 only church planners. And some of these digital only church planners want to plant an MMO. 00:45:12.340 --> 00:45:16.840 Like in, in different platforms and things like this. And, and so I was having a conversation 00:45:16.840 --> 00:45:21.460 with Stadia about this and DJ was, was in the room and we're, we're talking about like the, 00:45:21.460 --> 00:45:27.000 the viability of planting churches in games like Final Fantasy 14 or 15, whatever the version 00:45:27.000 --> 00:45:32.900 they're, they're up to. And, and DJ just has the throwaway stat. Yeah. There's like 20 million 00:45:32.900 --> 00:45:39.180 people that, that are, that are, they're still engaged regularly in, in this Final Fantasy 14 00:45:39.180 --> 00:45:44.060 platform. And, and, and, and the guy that I was with, with Stadia, like he, he gets white. 00:45:44.280 --> 00:45:48.320 He says, you're telling me there are 20 million people that engage just in that one, just in 00:45:48.320 --> 00:45:53.860 that one game, 20 million people. And he's like, he's like, Jeff, we're doing this big movement 00:45:53.860 --> 00:46:00.060 with Stadia to, to plant churches in prisons because we found the stat that there's 2 million 00:46:00.060 --> 00:46:06.220 people here in the U S in the, in the, in the penal system. And they need to get some sort of a 00:46:06.220 --> 00:46:10.440 church. So we're helping plant churches in prisons, but now you're telling me there's 20 million that 00:46:10.440 --> 00:46:16.240 play in just one of like multiple platforms. It's crazy. It's crazy. And the opportunities for 00:46:16.240 --> 00:46:22.620 us to like engage and to create a church in those communities. Oh, like to me, that's exciting. 00:46:22.760 --> 00:46:28.280 Like virtual reality is, is, is scratching the surface of really what the future can hold for us. 00:46:28.600 --> 00:46:35.460 That is so awesome. And you know, the 20 million, I, I can, you know, just guessing I would majority 00:46:35.460 --> 00:46:39.720 of those have no connection to the church. I mean, I play Valorant a lot. That's actually the, 00:46:39.760 --> 00:46:44.060 the one of the, the, the one GG study that we do. We do it in Valorant, which is kind of, 00:46:44.060 --> 00:46:47.760 kind of interesting because we're shooting people and talking about grace and stuff, you know, 00:46:47.760 --> 00:46:54.600 and have mercy, no mercy. But it's, it's, but these, but these guys that are on there that 00:46:54.600 --> 00:47:00.380 I never, and, and I think several of them are from the, you know, several are IRL folks. 00:47:00.940 --> 00:47:05.260 So I think the majority, cause it's a small group, but I have never heard them talk 00:47:05.260 --> 00:47:10.660 hardly ever about Bible study. I mean, this is drawn them out. Like they're doing something they 00:47:10.660 --> 00:47:14.920 love and they're talking about God and learning. But anyway, on Valorant, you know, there's, 00:47:15.040 --> 00:47:18.460 you know, it's such a huge community, just like, I mean, probably not as big as Final Fantasy, 00:47:18.460 --> 00:47:24.860 but you just see the gamer interaction and it's, it's not great, right? Like these folks are 00:47:24.860 --> 00:47:33.240 seemingly clearly lost. So I think the opportunity is enormous. Like it's really untapped all the, 00:47:33.280 --> 00:47:39.420 all the gamer culture. It's, it really is a mission field. It is the modern day mission field. That's 00:47:39.420 --> 00:47:44.480 where most of the younger generations are hanging out. I, so I, what you said, man, that I did not 00:47:44.480 --> 00:47:46.520 know 20 million on, that's crazy. 00:47:47.020 --> 00:47:50.480 That to me gets back to the conversation of avatar in terms of who is the real you, 00:47:50.740 --> 00:47:55.580 right? Like, because Christians in these environments act differently too. And so they've 00:47:55.580 --> 00:47:59.180 even got to learn. And we're probably as pastors going to have to lead our people towards establishing 00:47:59.180 --> 00:48:04.460 not a new to ethic, but that same ethic in these environments to make sure that there's integrity 00:48:04.460 --> 00:48:09.420 across the board, right? Like who you are in digital spaces, whether you're gaming, whether you're 00:48:09.420 --> 00:48:14.100 in virtual reality, whatever else has to be the same Christian that you're living IRL in real life. 00:48:14.100 --> 00:48:19.380 Right. And so that has to carry over. And then why not grab people spiritually that you're connecting 00:48:19.380 --> 00:48:22.160 with over there and bring them over to Christ. I mean, that's, that's massive. 00:48:22.380 --> 00:48:26.360 That's awesome. That's a good point about the ethic that we have to understand. Cause I think 00:48:26.360 --> 00:48:33.260 there's, you know, wrongly or rightly, we, we have this under, you know, the sacred secular divide. 00:48:33.260 --> 00:48:40.160 Right. And I think some of that's okay, but I do think that maybe has created some of this dilemma 00:48:40.160 --> 00:48:46.660 where we don't know how to enter into other spheres as a Christian. And we just, it just, 00:48:46.720 --> 00:48:50.440 we just haven't, I don't think we've equipped people to know how to actually be in the world 00:48:50.440 --> 00:48:57.660 and experience the secular, all that, all that is all reality in a sacred way. And as inverted, 00:48:57.780 --> 00:49:02.460 so what we've done is we've separated the two out and history of the churches bears that out, 00:49:02.460 --> 00:49:07.440 right? We've, this is your sacred spot. Come and do the holy stuff here. Only here's a secular 00:49:07.440 --> 00:49:12.880 don't mix the two together. Um, that's really the loud message, whether we intended to send that 00:49:12.880 --> 00:49:16.760 message or not, we sent that message. So that's why there's people, you can't play final fantasy 00:49:16.760 --> 00:49:21.720 and speak about Jesus. And the reality is we have to figure out this ethic where we bring 00:49:21.720 --> 00:49:27.180 Jesus into all those spaces. I think that's, that's what's so cool about the digital revolution here 00:49:27.180 --> 00:49:32.860 happening in the church. I think is it's creating more robust disciples that are through and through 00:49:32.860 --> 00:49:36.300 living out their Christian existence in all spheres. I think that's huge. 00:49:37.000 --> 00:49:41.160 Well, it's, it's certainly a fascinating opportunity to revisit the idea of calling 00:49:41.160 --> 00:49:45.280 to create a disciple maker to the place. It's funny. I just got an email from, 00:49:45.700 --> 00:49:50.660 from the girl that wants to plant an MMO asking a question on something as we're doing the podcast. 00:49:50.820 --> 00:49:59.420 So like she literally has a calling to plant a church in, in her guild, in the, in the game that, 00:49:59.500 --> 00:50:03.880 that she plays. It's, it's not final fantasy. It's another one, uh, black something online. 00:50:03.880 --> 00:50:08.480 I fly for me. I can't think of it right now. It's just anyway, sorry. Yeah. I should know. I don't 00:50:08.480 --> 00:50:14.140 know. I don't keep up with the MMO culture as much as I should. I'm learning dude. I'm 43. I'll try 00:50:14.140 --> 00:50:21.500 to keep up as much as I can, but she has a calling to do this. And so now we have like organizations 00:50:21.500 --> 00:50:27.700 like stadia or even like people like DJ coming along and saying, Hey, let us help you plant this 00:50:27.700 --> 00:50:34.100 church and do this. Yeah. Shoot. Even five years ago, like this was crazy. I, I start to hear the 00:50:34.100 --> 00:50:39.180 horror stories of some of these planters who like, like DJ Soto, like Angela Craig, who were planning 00:50:39.180 --> 00:50:44.820 these churches digital only without a physical footprint and like just being told no and ridiculed 00:50:44.820 --> 00:50:50.540 and mocked and no support and denominations, like not returning phone calls. And yeah. Yeah. Like 00:50:50.540 --> 00:50:55.980 it's, it's, it was this crazy world. And what's, what's fascinating is now as a result of COVID, 00:50:56.480 --> 00:51:02.320 I think people have a lot more future vision than they did pre COVID where some of these things 00:51:02.540 --> 00:51:08.120 aren't necessarily as radical. And even, I mean, shoot, Jason, even your story alone here, where 00:51:08.120 --> 00:51:13.980 over the span of eight or nine months, you went from, I can't even spell VR to, Hey, I'm getting 00:51:13.980 --> 00:51:20.780 ready to launch a VR church. That's tied in to the mission and vision of our church with centralized 00:51:20.780 --> 00:51:27.660 support, with funding coming from the physical campus, the virtual, like that's a very quick time 00:51:27.660 --> 00:51:34.080 turnaround for you to have an effective ministry virtually. I can't believe you're doing, you know, 00:51:34.160 --> 00:51:40.540 broadcast digital church online ministry as, as well. So you're really attacking like on three 00:51:40.540 --> 00:51:46.900 different spheres, the avatar, the church online, as, as well as the physical now with, with your 00:51:46.900 --> 00:51:52.840 building in, in Yuba. Like this is, this is just a phenomenal church ministry that you've developed 00:51:52.840 --> 00:51:54.060 on these three fronts. 00:51:54.620 --> 00:51:57.760 You're, you're wearing me out now thinking about like, man, I guess we are doing all those things. 00:51:57.820 --> 00:52:00.020 I'm starting to, well, I'm worn out for you. 00:52:00.740 --> 00:52:05.680 No, I've got a really good staff. Like I said, I mean, we really are blessed. And so, but it's been, 00:52:06.000 --> 00:52:10.720 but again, the energy's there because God's doing stuff and that's always exciting. So. 00:52:11.260 --> 00:52:16.680 What's the biggest challenge? Um, so you're doing physical, you're doing broadcast, you're doing 00:52:16.680 --> 00:52:23.440 what's, what's the hard thing? What's the tricky thing? Um, either in each of them or all of them, 00:52:23.440 --> 00:52:25.060 like where, where, where do you get stuck? 00:52:25.280 --> 00:52:31.800 Well, I think, man, just trying to figure out, um, discipleship. I mean, there's, it's amazing to me 00:52:31.800 --> 00:52:36.760 after 2000 years, we're still, you know, so many books are written on every generation. Cause we're 00:52:36.760 --> 00:52:42.580 all like, man, how do we do this? And I think we know how to, but it just seems, it seems challenging 00:52:42.580 --> 00:52:48.720 to know how to take somebody to the deeper levels. And, uh, and, and sometimes just happens 00:52:48.720 --> 00:52:53.360 sort of by accident, which really God just doing it. And you're like, wow, this guy wants to, 00:52:53.760 --> 00:52:57.540 wow. He wants to be, uh, involved more. I think God, I didn't, I didn't have anything to do with it. 00:52:57.540 --> 00:53:01.500 He just, you know, the Holy spirit moved him, but I like to figure out how to get better 00:53:01.500 --> 00:53:07.720 in the inner life church on the online, uh, digital, uh, live streaming, et cetera. And then 00:53:07.720 --> 00:53:14.160 the VR avatar stuff across the board, I want to see somehow a disciple, figure out how to do 00:53:14.160 --> 00:53:21.440 discipleship in a much more streamlined. I hate to use that term, but just a way that makes sense 00:53:21.440 --> 00:53:27.140 for everybody that we can replicate. And it can, it works across all spheres because it's just the, 00:53:27.200 --> 00:53:33.080 the age old process that Jesus instituted. And I guess I'm just struggling sometimes to, 00:53:33.380 --> 00:53:37.700 to figure out and maybe because the nuance of every personality, every person is different. 00:53:37.720 --> 00:53:42.440 And every situation is different, but I've, I've been challenged by that through all. I've been 00:53:42.440 --> 00:53:48.520 a pastor since 2008. And so not that long, but I mean, long enough to be like, how come I haven't 00:53:48.520 --> 00:53:54.040 figured this out yet? So I'm kind of embarrassed to even admit it, but that, that would be awesome 00:53:54.040 --> 00:54:00.040 to see the church just get more and more on fire, more empowered, more equipped to do its work. 00:54:00.500 --> 00:54:07.560 And I see it in pockets, but I feel like I'm probably failing, uh, to really make it 00:54:07.560 --> 00:54:13.780 clearer for the people. So that's where I'm hit a nerve there. That one's always, I can't figure 00:54:13.780 --> 00:54:19.640 this out. I was going to say it took the master three years with 12 guys. Yeah. Right. And that's, 00:54:19.680 --> 00:54:24.120 that's what I keep reminding myself. And that's why I remind a lot of our guys, because you know, 00:54:24.140 --> 00:54:27.780 it goes back to the whole microwave crockpot conversation. We always have a church in terms 00:54:27.780 --> 00:54:32.540 of discipleship, because like, I know that, and I'm calling my own organization out in this sense. 00:54:32.740 --> 00:54:36.920 Sometimes we say, Oh man, we need to, we need to create leaders. And what we really mean is, 00:54:36.920 --> 00:54:41.720 oh, we need to send more volunteers out. We're not necessarily as concerned with the slowness 00:54:41.720 --> 00:54:47.860 of discipleship, which is really where the deep and heart wrenching stuff comes from. And yeah, 00:54:47.920 --> 00:54:53.020 you know, sometimes you got to take out your highest leaders out of ministry because man, 00:54:53.380 --> 00:54:58.200 they're not there spiritually right now. And you got to do the work and, and working with them to kind 00:54:58.200 --> 00:55:01.540 of get back up to speed, et cetera. Not because they're not leading high enough because their 00:55:01.540 --> 00:55:07.120 spiritual life isn't matching the calling that they've got right now. And so I think that's just 00:55:07.120 --> 00:55:11.240 the lifelong struggle that we're all going to have as ministers and leaders. And so, you know, 00:55:11.240 --> 00:55:16.660 Jason, kudos to you, man, as you try to figure that out, to do that both in, in IRL and, and in VR, 00:55:16.660 --> 00:55:20.080 I know it's going to present a lot of challenges, but a lot of joys as well. 00:55:20.560 --> 00:55:22.320 Yeah. Good word. That's a good word, Ray. Yeah. 00:55:22.680 --> 00:55:26.440 Yeah. I mean, a year ago, you couldn't even do discipleship online. I was, 00:55:26.440 --> 00:55:31.620 always having those conversations in 2019, discipleship, disciple making, you know, that, 00:55:31.680 --> 00:55:36.640 that you had to be in the physical space for that. And, and even to see in COVID where now, 00:55:37.160 --> 00:55:42.500 you know, something like less than 200 churches were doing small groups online to now a major 00:55:42.500 --> 00:55:48.140 percentage are embracing this and figuring that as a result of COVID, maybe it goes back to normal. 00:55:48.260 --> 00:55:54.180 We'll have to see what, whatever the perceived normal is February 2020. Maybe it reverts back to 00:55:54.180 --> 00:55:57.920 the way that it was, but I think there's a better understanding of community of engagement 00:55:57.920 --> 00:56:04.080 and, and hopefully discipleship, disciple making as, as a result of it. So you are not the only church 00:56:04.080 --> 00:56:10.640 to wrestle with that. So, so at least have that, have that in mind. Many, many churches are trying 00:56:10.640 --> 00:56:16.940 to crack that, but if we can figure out how to do discipleship digitally, virtually, and this just 00:56:16.940 --> 00:56:22.380 becomes a distribution network of the gospel, the internet digital does, man, I think that's when 00:56:22.380 --> 00:56:27.920 we see revival because I think that there are buildings are a lid and what you're seeing in 00:56:27.920 --> 00:56:32.540 virtual, what we're seeing through your broadcast and church online, I think that's going to open up a 00:56:32.540 --> 00:56:38.140 whole other, a whole other level of church that, that we don't even realize here in 2020. So. 00:56:38.340 --> 00:56:39.700 Yeah. That's good. Good word. 00:56:40.200 --> 00:56:45.240 Hey, listen, I mean, I love this time. I'm so excited about this idea of the three phase church. 00:56:45.240 --> 00:56:49.460 You are the one guy in the entire country who's doing three phases. 00:56:49.520 --> 00:56:51.240 I don't know about that, but yeah, it's crazy. Yeah. 00:56:51.540 --> 00:56:56.060 If I was wearing a hat, I would take it off. Um, it's my salute you, whatever it is. So, 00:56:56.120 --> 00:57:00.760 so thank you for that. Hey, Ray, as, as we're landing the plane, just any, maybe closing thoughts. 00:57:00.920 --> 00:57:05.660 Yeah. Just, you know, and I love the thought process of, of how you're looking at this as 00:57:05.660 --> 00:57:10.800 its own campus. And I don't think that can be overstated enough because, you know, every platform 00:57:10.800 --> 00:57:15.500 down the road is going to be viewed as a separate campus. Kind of like how we go multi-site into 00:57:15.500 --> 00:57:19.540 different communities. You know, YouTube is going to be considered a church online campus one day. 00:57:20.120 --> 00:57:24.400 Facebook's going to be considered its own campus one day. And so we kind of have to take a look at 00:57:24.400 --> 00:57:29.420 how we're taking that same mission method and engaging specific environments. And so I think what 00:57:29.420 --> 00:57:33.600 you're doing, Jason is so wonderful and so forward thinking, but at the same time, it fits in with 00:57:33.600 --> 00:57:38.360 who your church is now. So it's not like you're being somebody else. You're being who you are 00:57:38.360 --> 00:57:41.700 in this space. And for that, like Jeff, I took my hat off to you. 00:57:42.240 --> 00:57:44.180 Thanks, bro. Yeah. Thanks guys. It was fun. 00:57:44.940 --> 00:57:49.960 Man, just even as we're landing the plane here on your side, Jason, any, any closing thoughts 00:57:49.960 --> 00:57:51.780 and anything as we're wrapping up? 00:57:51.840 --> 00:57:55.420 No, I just, uh, well, thanks for what you guys are doing. I mean, I think just keeping it out. I mean, 00:57:55.420 --> 00:57:59.220 cause there's not that many champions for this, right? I mean, you already talked about DJ 00:57:59.220 --> 00:58:04.260 and his story was one of kind of on his own in the wilderness, right? And people were, and I did 00:58:04.260 --> 00:58:08.980 see, you know, as I did research, people can be just really brutal. And I don't know why we do 00:58:08.980 --> 00:58:15.720 that to each other. Why, why we eat our own, uh, but we do. And so, uh, it's gotten better now 00:58:15.720 --> 00:58:19.980 because there's more people like DJ that are out there and you, but the, the, you know, you doing 00:58:19.980 --> 00:58:26.640 this, uh, allows for a voice to be had for people that are trying to see a new way forward to bring 00:58:26.640 --> 00:58:30.980 people to Christ and giving it. I just think, yeah, there's not that many voices out there 00:58:30.980 --> 00:58:37.840 that are, that are, uh, making us look, uh, nor, I mean, everyone else makes us look abnormal and 00:58:37.840 --> 00:58:42.540 maybe even not even biblical sometimes. And so it's nice to have somebody that's, uh, you know, 00:58:42.580 --> 00:58:47.240 understanding that this is really a legitimate means of expressing the gospel to people. So 00:58:47.240 --> 00:58:53.500 thanks for doing what you're doing with stadia. Yeah. Amen. And so Ray, Ray was actually part of 00:58:53.500 --> 00:58:58.060 my Genesis and we're going to be celebrating this in a couple of weeks. The, the church digital is 00:58:58.060 --> 00:59:04.060 coming up on our 100th episode, uh, here on the podcast. And so, and this goes back, the podcast 00:59:04.060 --> 00:59:11.040 is actually going to highlight, you know, my story back in like 2000, January, February, 2018, Ray. 00:59:11.240 --> 00:59:16.540 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was that long ago. And once again, in COVID, it feels like, you know, forever 00:59:16.540 --> 00:59:21.880 ago, but forever, but it really was like three, maybe not even three years ago. But, um, you know, 00:59:21.900 --> 00:59:29.080 my church story was, uh, I was frustrated because I could not get leadership to, I, I didn't even feel 00:59:29.080 --> 00:59:34.480 like I was communicating clearly to leadership. We were like so far apart, um, just in the different 00:59:34.480 --> 00:59:40.260 visions and methods and directions of, of what I was seeing and how I was seeing it. And so I felt 00:59:40.260 --> 00:59:46.580 alone. I was frustrated. Literally. I didn't feel like anybody was like on the same pages as me. 00:59:46.860 --> 00:59:51.820 And so because of that, I felt weird and like, well, maybe, maybe I'm just looking at ministry 00:59:51.820 --> 00:59:57.900 different or maybe God really doesn't, doesn't work this way. And so Ray and I, um, we were blessed 00:59:57.900 --> 01:00:04.000 at the time to go to a conference in California. Actually it was in Disneyland, downtown Disney. Um, 01:00:04.000 --> 01:00:08.540 other side of the country for us here in Miami. And so went to this conference and was actually 01:00:08.540 --> 01:00:13.720 surrounded by, I don't know, a couple hundred people who maybe more than that, but they were 01:00:13.720 --> 01:00:18.700 people who were thinking just like I was thinking. They were asking the same questions that I, that I 01:00:18.700 --> 01:00:26.180 was asking. And as a result of it, I started to realize, Hey, I'm not alone, but there are very few 01:00:26.180 --> 01:00:31.820 people who are championing these ideas. Like these people don't know each other. I'm, I'm literally on the 01:00:31.820 --> 01:00:36.740 other side of the country. And I have no idea for years that there were people who were kind of 01:00:36.740 --> 01:00:40.860 wrestling with these same things that were coming up with solutions that I didn't know about. 01:00:41.460 --> 01:00:44.360 And, and, and really it was in the middle of this conference that I, that I started the church 01:00:44.360 --> 01:00:49.800 digital. I bought the domain name in the middle of a keynote speech, uh, on, on my phone, on the 01:00:49.800 --> 01:00:54.160 GoDaddy app, because I was like, that's not an endorsement of GoDaddy, but I just, I bought it. 01:00:54.160 --> 01:00:58.600 Cause it's like, I was like, God, God called me. I'm going to do this. I have no idea what it looks 01:00:58.600 --> 01:01:02.660 like. I didn't know it was going to be like, quit the job, start the business. I didn't know Stadia. 01:01:02.760 --> 01:01:07.640 I couldn't even spell Stadia at the time. Uh, and it's just as how Skide has kind of orchestrated 01:01:07.640 --> 01:01:16.860 all this, I believe in a way to help create new churches, to birth new digital only avatar only 01:01:16.860 --> 01:01:24.140 digital mixing, physical and digital, you know, to help churches utilize these tools, not for digital 01:01:24.140 --> 01:01:29.200 purpose, not for VR purpose, not for even physical benefit, but it's this idea of creating these 01:01:29.200 --> 01:01:37.360 disciple makers who can go and pioneer and create new churches in MMO, in Twitter, in Facebook, in 01:01:37.360 --> 01:01:42.000 virtual reality, in whatever the crazy thing that comes up next. Cause there's always going to be a 01:01:42.000 --> 01:01:47.400 crazy next thing and how we, the church can support. That's beautiful. And Jason, you are doing a great 01:01:47.400 --> 01:01:53.100 job and maybe even just realizing, Hey, there's more than just the building. Let's test them. Let's 01:01:53.100 --> 01:01:57.800 experiment some of this stuff and the stories. Like, I just want to continue to get updates, man, 01:01:57.800 --> 01:02:02.200 just to kind of feel you're, I've got, you're the three, your nicknames, you know, three phase 01:02:02.200 --> 01:02:07.260 polling. I got, we got to come up with something, but you're the guy who's doing it in the three 01:02:07.260 --> 01:02:12.740 phases. You are the one guy. And so like, I want to hear what's going on. What are you learning? What's 01:02:12.740 --> 01:02:17.580 working? What's not working for you here in, in the, in the months ahead. So let's, let's bring you 01:02:17.580 --> 01:02:22.840 back on. Let's dialogue. I'll add a fourth phase. Maybe there's a four, is there a fourth phase? Is that 01:02:22.840 --> 01:02:27.680 possible? If there is, you'll be there first. If there is, you will be there first. 01:02:27.800 --> 01:02:38.040 Jason polling, a cornerstones, a bleeding edge. Oh, man. I love this. So, Hey, for Ray, for Jason, 01:02:38.040 --> 01:02:42.160 this is Jeff with the church digital. Thanks for jumping on the podcast here. We'll see you next 01:02:42.160 --> 01:02:43.180 time. Have a good day.