WEBVTT

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 Hey, we got episode 106 of the Church Digital Podcast, powered by State of Church Planning.

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 Jeff here.

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 Hey, I'm on vacation.

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 I don't know if you can tell.

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 I'm literally sitting here in Disney Hollywood studios, people walking by.

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 It's awesome.

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 Great, great time.

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 Rise of the Resistance, Star Wars, best Disney experience I've ever been on.

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 Phenomenal stuff.

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 Hey, listen, let's talk about episode 106 here.

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 Great conversation.

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 We're really starting to get into some of the theological implications of Church Online.

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 Brought in Professor Steve Lowe into the conversation.

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 Now, Professor Steve, Professor Lowe, excuse me, Liberty is starting up an online track where you can get a, eventually, your master's, your MDiv, with an emphasis in online ministry.

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 Really fascinating.

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 There are a lot of seminaries out there that are doing that.

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 So we talk about it here with Professor Lowe on the podcast.

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 Why don't schools see this?

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 And what is Liberty doing to really get into that space?

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 Into the conversation as well, we're bringing Dan Tebow.

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 Dan is a seminary student, one of these seminary students that are on this track to do online ministry.

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 And so we have this conversation.

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 Bring Ray DeArmis, of course, into the conversation.

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 Phenomenal, phenomenal show.

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 So episode 106, digging into the future of the theology of Church Online.

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 Okay, everybody, here you go.

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 Tell me what's happening at Liberty.

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 Let's start there.

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 Tell me what's happening at Liberty and how you guys are creating now training online ministers.

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 You would think that the pandemic would have put the kibosh on enrollments, but it really hasn't.

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 Our enrollments have gone up during this time period.

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 We're at our largest enrollment for online students in the history of the institution.

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 We're at 105,000 online students, and we have 15,000 students on campus.

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 So the online portion of the university has continued to grow and expand, which includes the School of Divinity.

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 We probably have, oh, if not the largest, maybe the second largest footprint in terms of student enrollment for online than any of the other colleges or schools in the university.

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 We have about 18, and we have about 18 total of those.

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 So we've been doing this for quite a while.

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 We have gotten into the online portion probably within the last 10 years or so.

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 We have been using the Blackboard platform as our learning management system.

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 We are in the process of migrating to Canvas, which is a lot of work for everybody in the institution that's involved in online learning.

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 I'm a combination of jobs there.

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 I have administrative responsibilities.

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 I have teaching responsibilities.

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 I have dissertation guidance responsibilities and course creation, including the cognate that we have for digital church ministry.

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 So it's a hybrid kind of environment where most of us are working both on campus and online.

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 I teach this semester.

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 We have four courses on campus and four courses online.

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 So that's kind of typical of how things go.

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 And the combination of those keeps us kind of agile as we go through the semester, keep us on our toes.

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 We've learned over the years doing online education that it's easy to do it poorly.

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 It takes a lot of work and dedication and money to do it well.

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 And you have to have an ongoing professional development piece where you're constantly working with your faculty,

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 with your subject matter experts, with the staff that helps create the online environments and make them look nice and pretty and attractive and easy to use.

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 So all of that takes a great team effort to be able to pull that off.

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 And one of the great things about Liberty is that they dedicate a great deal of their resources to that.

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 In fact, I just had today at noon, I spent 30 minutes in a webinar for online faculty where we were kind of given some best practices in regard to grading and feedback and how to do that better.

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 So we get those at least once a month.

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 And so we're constantly trying to improve what we're doing.

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 Well, I tell you, even that ratio, it's not the conversation I wanted to have, but 15,000 students physically and 105,000 students online.

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 You know, in online church, we talk about how digital scales, how you have an opportunity to reach and engage and develop people spiritually.

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 And at least in academic circles, Liberty is showing that where you're reaching, I'm guessing the people are across the country and around the world that you're now doing this with in digital space.

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 How long have you guys been running this program or any sort of online courses there at Liberty?

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 Well, right from the beginning in 1971, when Dr. Falwell started.

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 They had the online in 1971?

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 Well, they didn't have online, but they had distance education.

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 They did correspondence education.

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 So they were doing it right off the bat.

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 In fact, they were using cassette tapes.

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 I think it was their first foray.

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 And then VCH tapes, videotapes, and then eventually CD-ROMs.

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 And then when the internet got up and running and things became more technologically available and workable, then they went online about, oh, probably 10 or 15 years ago.

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 Very cool.

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 I will say this, Liberty was one of the few schools that actually offered me financial aid to come to the school.

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 I was not a good football player, but I was a football player.

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 And Liberty was like the only school, Florida State, which I would never be a no.

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 But Liberty was like one of the few schools.

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 It was like, hey, here's a bunch of money to come play football for us.

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 And of course, I said no.

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 Well, look at us today.

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 8-0 ranked pretty high.

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 Yeah, I mean, my Horned Frogs are normally better than this year, but honestly, they've had a bad decade.

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 So the 2020s, hopefully, we'll be looking better for them down the road.

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 And of course, go Gaines.

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 I'm in Miami.

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 I have to say that.

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 Well, hey, and I cannot wait to have this conversation because my experience with seminary coming out of 2000.

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 I graduated 1999 from TCU, as I mentioned, and just, I was in Fort Worth, Texas, and there was a seminary down the road, Southern Baptist, you know, Southwestern's right there in the town.

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 And a lot of my friends were going that way.

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 And I've always been this, like, technological guide.

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 The first online Bible study I taught was in the year 2000.

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 And the more that I, just back then, that I looked at what seminaries were doing, the more that I was like, you know, I can't, what I feel called to do, I'm not seeing the seminaries doing.

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 And so I don't know that it's, like, worth me doing this and going into these schools.

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 And which is why I'm so excited 20 years later, when in the course of all of these webinars and speaking and all this stuff that I've been doing as a result of COVID, I get an invitation from Liberty University to speak for online ministry.

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 And there's a cognate that I don't even know that I really understand what a cognate is, but there's now education that's happening here.

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 And so, you know, love the fact that we get to bring you on, sir, and we're bringing on Dan Tebow as well, one of the students of Liberty University that's in the middle of this.

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 So, man, Dan, even just to open up with you, tell me your story of how you chose Liberty, how you got involved in this online ministry.

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 Was this like, what's your online ministry story?

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 How'd you get started into this?

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 So, for me, Liberty was one of those schools that I'd always heard about when I was in the military as being military friendly.

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 And that's kind of what turned me on to Liberty.

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 And when I got out of the active duty Air Force back in 2016, I had the post-9-11 GI Bill sitting there.

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 And I was fortunate enough when I was active duty to get my first master's degree through tuition assistance.

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 But I had these benefits.

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 I'm like, these are just sitting here.

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 I can't transfer my family because I'm already out of the service.

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 So, what am I going to do with them?

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 And it had been on my heart for a while to pursue some type of Bible college or seminary just to enrich my own walk with God.

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 And as I started praying about it and Liberty popped up one day, I think it was in a Facebook feed of all things, you know, advertising.

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 And so, I clicked on it and from there, I started looking through.

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 And out of all the seminaries I looked at online, they just made it the easiest to understand the process and to apply.

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 And honestly, just the benefits for not just military, but then also first responders.

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 I work in law enforcement.

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 And so, those things right there were, you know, no-brainers for me.

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 And so, I went ahead and applied and was able to get selected and approved to go to the Master of Divinity program.

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 And there are a lot of cognates, which are basically concentrations within the degree program.

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 I mean, there's several different ones.

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 The first was, I'll do apologetics.

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 And after, you know, taking the Apologetics 500, I'm like, I don't want to go that route for the long run.

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 And I checked out a couple others and looked at Biblical Languages, which was a 90-hour program.

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 And literally, over the summer, Liberty pushed out this, you know, this section on the website of new programs.

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 I'm like, what new programs do we got?

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 And sure enough, there was, you know, Church Ministry for the Digital Age.

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 I'm like, no way.

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 Like, that's awesome because of the fact, with me being a military guy, I value, you know, the face-to-face communication,

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 whether it's Zoom or FaceTime or whatever it is, being traveling a lot and understanding the importance of using technology to stay connected.

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 And just seeing that.

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 And then I could go on a long story.

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 My best friend is actually in South Carolina, Charleston area.

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 And we have only met in person twice, but we've been best friends for over a decade.

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 And it was just through the grace of God meeting on a Fellowship of Christian Athletics forum through the endurance.

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 We did ultra running.

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 And I met him there in 2011.

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 And it just started, you know, kind of like a pen pal almost.

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 But it was through email and forums.

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 And he's become my greatest mentor.

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 And so it's just for me personally, I've seen the value of technology and using it to build intentional relationships.

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 And so when Liberty pushed out the Cognit, I was like, that's a no-brainer for me.

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 I signed up and, you know, it was funny when I signed up and got started with Dr. Lowe.

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 I looked at the class roster and I was like, I'm the only one in here right now.

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 What's going on with that?

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 But it's just because it's so new.

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 And I'm hoping and praying that through this podcast that it just gets the word out that, you know, Liberty has something out there that no other seminary has.

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 And this is the time to jump on it because it's the leading edge of what God's able to do with the kingdom through technology.

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 Yeah, well, let's talk a little bit about that.

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 Like there's not a lot of other seminaries that are doing this.

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 I don't know that I've heard anybody.

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 Honestly, there may be one or two.

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 But how did Liberty get to this place?

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 Online, digital, pre-COVID, very controversial idea.

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 Even mid-COVID, you know, there are still people that want to get back to February 2020.

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 Let's just reset and go back to the way that we were as quick as possible.

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 And so Liberty, you know, is kind of being a little bleeding edge here and saying, hey, we want to acknowledge this whole online ministry thing.

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 We want to start to train our people.

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 We want to help reproduce that.

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 Steve, sir, what was that process?

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 What did that look like for Liberty to come to this realization?

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 Well, you have to be ready for an endurance run when you do these at Liberty because it is a really protracted process.

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 They have a lot of hoops that you have to jump through.

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 So we started working on this a year ago.

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 And what prompted it was my thinking that really got carved out for me when I was at Michigan State University as a student studying under Ted Ward there,

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 who served at that institution for 30 years as a Christian, cranked out a lot of students over the years.

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 And one of the things he taught us in curriculum courses was curriculum is not something that you're doing now.

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 A good curriculum is one that's forward facing.

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 It's preparing students for the future, not for the present.

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 And as I looked at the landscape of what we were doing in the School of Divinity, everything that we were doing was geared towards preparing students for brick and mortar church ministry of one form or another,

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 either in an existing church or church planting or something of that sort.

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 And nothing at all was offered in regard to preparing students for digital church ministry, which I knew was out there and a vibrant part of many institutions and many churches,

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 but wasn't on our radar screen at all.

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 So I began with my wife, Mary, putting this program together, going through the process of getting it approved and creating a cognate that we hope will eventually enlarge over the years and become an entire degree program itself.

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 So we've kind of built into the way in which we have structured it around four kind of skills that we want students to develop, an opportunity for those to grow.

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 We have four courses now, one each for each of those skill areas, and eventually we hope to expand those into other areas, including areas of digital discipleship, digital evangelism, and things of that nature.

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 Awesome. First, Dan, thank you for serving in our military. Just especially wanted to highlight that, man. Just grateful for you, man. Thank you.

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 Dr. Lowe, those four areas, man, can you please share with us what those are? Because I think this is fascinating. Can you dive in a little bit deeper and share those with us?

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 Yeah, digital theology is one area that we have, digital formation, and then digital community, and then finally digital strategies.

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 So we have a course for each one of those right now. The course that Dan took last term was the foundational course.

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 It's a course on the theology of networks, having students think through the biblical and theological basis for doing online digital ministry.

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 And then the course he's taking now from my wife, Mary Lowe, is on spiritual formation.

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 And then he's also, I think, taking another one from me on ministry practice.

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 That is kind of the basic skills of how you set up a digital ministry.

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 So they're designed to give students basic skills so that once they graduate from us,

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 they could step into a ministry somewhere and not have to be brought up to speed by the church.

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 They would already have some skills in place.

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 Most importantly, they would have a good biblical theological reason, rationale for doing this kind of ministry and be able to defend that if they need to from both scripture and from theology, the history of the church.

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 That's wonderful.

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 Dan, what kind of books does Dr. Lowe have you reading in digital theology, man?

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 I'm curious, man.

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 Seminary guys, we're book collectors, bro.

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 So I want to hear what's going on.

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 Right?

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 Should I start with the one that both Dr. Lowe's wrote together?

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 No.

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 I would, yeah.

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 That's Ecologies of Faith, which I actually, I sent him an email yesterday.

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 I was like, man, chapter five is where it's all at.

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 Because, you know, the argument for digital ministry is, you know, so many folks, as we know, are like, well, we have to have face-to-face interaction, which to an extent, yes, we do.

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 The digital ministry is not going to replace physical gatherings and connections.

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 But why not bridge the gap, especially with 2020 teaching us the impact of the, you know, global pandemic and everything else that's been going on in our country.

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 And so to get back to the rest of the books, you know, there's some other ones out there.

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 The Social Media Gospel, The Ecologies of Faith, I mentioned that one.

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 What's the other one?

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 The Virtual Body of Christ.

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 Yeah.

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 That was last course, if I'm right.

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 So, I mean, it's just, there's a wealth of knowledge out there of independent folks that have dug into the topic, but nobody's spearheaded it yet.

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 And that's what I'm thankful for Liberty doing with this program is we have structure to it to where now we can, how, what does this look like as a program?

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 How do we actually take these ideas and these experiences people are having amidst, you know, global pandemic again?

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 And how do we leverage those things for moving ahead?

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 And, I mean, there's just so many opportunities with that, you know, just taking the simple basis of understanding that when we look at the early disciples, they were scattered.

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 And in that, in and of itself, you know, they were immediately starting ministry, going out and getting the job done through the Great Commission.

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 And we, as a church, especially a Western church, have become so comfortable with our traditions of, you know, meeting in a building and having small groups and programs within that to where we miss the opportunities to go out.

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 And just digital ministry is kind of holding our feet to the fire as a church of, hey, there's a job to do.

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 Let's go be, you know, proactive in that instead of reactive and trying to get folks to come to us.

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 We need to go to them.

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 And so, I mean, there's all kinds of avenues we could go with that.

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 But there's just so far, you know, I'm now, I finished one course of the Cognitant.

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 I'm in the other two.

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 I'll take the next one after Christmas.

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 And I've been beyond motivated in the past, you know, eight weeks, 10 weeks at this point.

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 I'm four semesters into my Master of Divinity.

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 I'll have two semesters left.

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 But this chunk has been golden because of the fact that, like I said, for my own story, having traveling so much and been to different areas and having to leverage technology to stay connected with people.

00:18:30.420 --> 00:18:34.460
 And then the relationships I've dealt with my buddy Adam and stuff like that.

00:18:34.560 --> 00:18:40.980
 It's one of those things that I'm now being given tools that I can build a community that's decentralized.

00:18:41.580 --> 00:18:53.440
 And they have basically a base camp to come to, get trained, get equipped, have fellowship, and then replicate, you know, basic discipleship, replicate it in their own networks where they're at.

00:18:53.600 --> 00:18:56.760
 And it's really a launching arm for the church.

00:18:57.380 --> 00:18:59.620
 And so that's just kind of some basic thoughts on it.

00:18:59.680 --> 00:19:01.720
 But I don't know how far you want to go with that.

00:19:01.840 --> 00:19:03.240
 I don't want to take the whole conversation.

00:19:04.020 --> 00:19:04.380
 Beautiful.

00:19:04.720 --> 00:19:08.480
 Dan, just tell me, even coming out of this, like, so you got one year left.

00:19:09.080 --> 00:19:09.800
 What's next?

00:19:10.300 --> 00:19:11.920
 What does ministry look like?

00:19:11.940 --> 00:19:13.600
 You're doing that, that digital Cognitant.

00:19:13.600 --> 00:19:18.100
 Like, how are you going to apply this when you're walking away with a degree?

00:19:18.660 --> 00:19:18.880
 Certainly.

00:19:19.700 --> 00:19:25.920
 So for me, I've been very fortunate to kind of experience two different realms of digital ministry.

00:19:26.420 --> 00:19:29.820
 I serve my local church here at Be Hope Church in Beaver Creek, Ohio.

00:19:30.420 --> 00:19:32.700
 And, you know, they have, you know, they're basic.

00:19:33.060 --> 00:19:35.480
 They're a very well-rounded church for the local community.

00:19:35.660 --> 00:19:40.300
 But they've been streaming their service now for, I want to say, four or five years.

00:19:40.620 --> 00:19:44.880
 And so within the past two years, the online campus pastor came up to me and goes,

00:19:44.960 --> 00:19:47.960
 Hey, I think if you're really good at the social media thing, you're going to help me build this thing.

00:19:48.280 --> 00:19:50.400
 And it was about the same time that I started at Liberty.

00:19:50.860 --> 00:19:54.040
 And so as I'm trying to figure this out, how do we build a Facebook group?

00:19:54.040 --> 00:19:57.940
 How do we, you know, leverage that to meet the needs of the congregation?

00:19:58.200 --> 00:20:01.720
 How do we go beyond a Sunday morning or a Sunday afternoon?

00:20:02.400 --> 00:20:04.760
 And, you know, I think it's DJ is our campus pastor.

00:20:04.880 --> 00:20:08.000
 He always says, I think it's 167 or 176 hours of the week.

00:20:08.060 --> 00:20:09.860
 What are you going to do with that outside of Sunday?

00:20:10.400 --> 00:20:16.140
 And so that's where, when it comes to taking a physical church and launching into digital ministry,

00:20:16.140 --> 00:20:22.680
 we have such an opportunity to continue to grow and to invest in the people throughout the week,

00:20:22.680 --> 00:20:27.220
 where it's too easy just to, you know, get into our routines and become lukewarm through the week,

00:20:27.260 --> 00:20:28.980
 which is the worst thing we can do in our walk.

00:20:29.160 --> 00:20:35.480
 And so having that opportunity to build that Facebook group and go from literally two people to,

00:20:35.620 --> 00:20:38.180
 I think we were at 560 now, just two years later.

00:20:38.480 --> 00:20:41.660
 And there's meaningful conversation that happens in there throughout the week.

00:20:41.720 --> 00:20:45.300
 We get people sharing their testimonies, sharing prayer requests, praise reports,

00:20:45.780 --> 00:20:47.500
 reaching out for extra help in the community.

00:20:48.000 --> 00:20:53.620
 And I mean, that in itself, you know, especially when we've got social distancing and everything going on,

00:20:54.020 --> 00:20:55.840
 we have, we still have that connection.

00:20:55.980 --> 00:20:57.160
 We have those meaningful interactions.

00:20:57.160 --> 00:20:58.840
 And that's just something in a group.

00:20:58.920 --> 00:21:02.000
 You're still having folks that are now communicating one-on-one,

00:21:02.200 --> 00:21:05.180
 whether it's FaceTime or Zoom or anything like that.

00:21:05.240 --> 00:21:09.140
 So there's so many different tenets that you can use digital ministry

00:21:09.140 --> 00:21:15.160
 to completely bolster up and reinforce your physical church.

00:21:15.340 --> 00:21:21.200
 And there's so many things that I would tell a traditional physical campus or pastor of,

00:21:21.360 --> 00:21:24.980
 hey, take this and let it grow what you're doing.

00:21:25.380 --> 00:21:26.560
 You know, it's not going to replace it.

00:21:26.600 --> 00:21:27.380
 Don't be afraid of it.

00:21:27.400 --> 00:21:28.200
 It's there for you.

00:21:28.600 --> 00:21:32.320
 And so that's kind of my one exposure to digital ministry.

00:21:32.880 --> 00:21:36.760
 But then the other part of it is something I've been starting called Servant Warrior.

00:21:37.320 --> 00:21:40.500
 And that's basically a digital ministry, more or less,

00:21:40.560 --> 00:21:44.020
 that I've decided to finally take the leap of faith and jump into.

00:21:44.020 --> 00:21:47.160
 And that's where I'm fortunate to have Professor, you know,

00:21:47.180 --> 00:21:52.060
 Lowe and his wife to go through and encourage me to step out into that.

00:21:52.180 --> 00:21:57.280
 And what I've done basically is, for me, I'm a guy who works in law enforcement.

00:21:57.600 --> 00:22:01.080
 And guys don't like to talk one-on-one in the first place.

00:22:01.080 --> 00:22:03.520
 They're always the hardest to get to open up to each other.

00:22:03.700 --> 00:22:06.880
 But then you add into that type A personality of military law enforcement,

00:22:07.020 --> 00:22:07.640
 it's even worse.

00:22:07.800 --> 00:22:10.540
 You know, everyone wants to joke and have fun,

00:22:10.620 --> 00:22:12.200
 but nobody wants to be real with one another.

00:22:12.340 --> 00:22:17.680
 And so it's an interesting group of individuals to really start to crack that egg

00:22:17.680 --> 00:22:22.860
 and start to drain it out and be real and transparent and support one another

00:22:22.860 --> 00:22:26.500
 in the walk of life, especially this year for law enforcement.

00:22:26.620 --> 00:22:28.660
 It's been very unique.

00:22:29.420 --> 00:22:34.700
 And so what I've done with that is it started on Facebook,

00:22:34.700 --> 00:22:37.040
 just reaching out to guys that I knew personally of,

00:22:37.160 --> 00:22:39.540
 hey, I know you're, you know, either one,

00:22:39.620 --> 00:22:44.160
 have faith and are trying to strengthen that through this year,

00:22:44.160 --> 00:22:46.320
 or you are questioning faith.

00:22:46.400 --> 00:22:49.140
 Let me start a conversation with you and work through that.

00:22:49.640 --> 00:22:57.420
 Or just people that are looking for the answer of where do they find rest and restoration and peace.

00:22:57.900 --> 00:23:02.060
 And so there's a lot of different opportunities to evangelize and discipleship in that.

00:23:02.500 --> 00:23:04.020
 And so I started with a small group.

00:23:04.560 --> 00:23:05.840
 And through that small group,

00:23:05.920 --> 00:23:10.980
 we've now grown to about 34 guys that are pretty active and talking.

00:23:11.420 --> 00:23:13.360
 And actually within the past couple of weeks,

00:23:13.360 --> 00:23:15.560
 kind of shifted my model a little bit.

00:23:15.800 --> 00:23:17.960
 And, you know, I'm basically testing it out as I go

00:23:17.960 --> 00:23:20.920
 to where it started as a small, small group on Facebook.

00:23:20.920 --> 00:23:23.520
 I had the basic Instagram, the Facebook page, you know,

00:23:23.520 --> 00:23:25.880
 kind of the run of the mill basic, you know,

00:23:26.000 --> 00:23:28.220
 tenants that you would have in a digital brand.

00:23:29.480 --> 00:23:32.620
 But as I was looking at that, you get this push,

00:23:32.760 --> 00:23:36.820
 especially in the podcasting world, to try to reach out and get everybody.

00:23:37.040 --> 00:23:38.200
 You want to impact everybody.

00:23:38.260 --> 00:23:40.800
 You want to influence everybody, which is good for a podcast.

00:23:41.240 --> 00:23:43.200
 But if you're trying to build community

00:23:43.200 --> 00:23:44.980
 and you're trying to build intentionality,

00:23:44.980 --> 00:23:46.480
 that's going to be transformational,

00:23:46.900 --> 00:23:50.040
 you need something a little bit more focused and in depth.

00:23:50.600 --> 00:23:52.840
 And so I decided to shut down the Instagram

00:23:52.840 --> 00:23:54.780
 and migrate the Facebook page.

00:23:55.240 --> 00:23:56.680
 And actually by your recommendation,

00:23:56.900 --> 00:23:59.460
 after talking to different platforms that were out there,

00:23:59.480 --> 00:24:01.260
 I moved them over to Discord.

00:24:01.840 --> 00:24:05.780
 And Discord has been an amazing platform for this group of guys.

00:24:06.400 --> 00:24:09.240
 It is basically, I call it a chat room on steroids.

00:24:09.680 --> 00:24:12.820
 And it reminds me of the old AOL type messenger environment

00:24:12.820 --> 00:24:14.180
 where, you know, you can get in there

00:24:14.180 --> 00:24:15.940
 and just have direct conversations.

00:24:16.780 --> 00:24:19.600
 But they've went through and being a gamer community

00:24:19.600 --> 00:24:22.120
 that started it, they had a lot of video and audio.

00:24:22.720 --> 00:24:25.060
 And so we've had, just last week,

00:24:25.120 --> 00:24:28.920
 I had a video voice call with four guys in the group.

00:24:28.980 --> 00:24:30.200
 One of them was in Peru.

00:24:30.680 --> 00:24:31.720
 One was in Japan.

00:24:31.900 --> 00:24:33.160
 One was in South Carolina.

00:24:33.160 --> 00:24:33.980
 And I'm here in Ohio.

00:24:34.300 --> 00:24:36.280
 And we got to have an actual conversation

00:24:36.280 --> 00:24:38.800
 and talk about their walks and what they were struggling with.

00:24:38.980 --> 00:24:40.860
 And it just, it blew my mind when I hung up.

00:24:40.920 --> 00:24:43.120
 I'm like, here I am literally talking to someone

00:24:43.120 --> 00:24:45.260
 on the other world, you know, the other side of the world,

00:24:45.640 --> 00:24:46.860
 someone south of the equator,

00:24:47.420 --> 00:24:49.240
 and then someone here in the States.

00:24:49.600 --> 00:24:51.260
 But we're developing relationships

00:24:51.260 --> 00:24:53.880
 that there's just general conversation going on.

00:24:54.080 --> 00:24:56.280
 And you can't have that when you're confined

00:24:56.280 --> 00:24:57.420
 to a brick and mortar building.

00:24:57.420 --> 00:24:59.780
 You know, if someone, the guy that's in Japan

00:24:59.780 --> 00:25:02.040
 is actually a former ROTC cadet that I trained.

00:25:02.260 --> 00:25:05.000
 He's working and doing some really cool things overseas.

00:25:05.720 --> 00:25:08.600
 And, you know, being able to take that relationship

00:25:08.600 --> 00:25:11.760
 that I had in person and invest time into it

00:25:11.760 --> 00:25:13.520
 through digital media and digital ministry,

00:25:14.080 --> 00:25:15.680
 he still has that connection.

00:25:16.020 --> 00:25:18.520
 And it's just been very awesome to see.

00:25:18.660 --> 00:25:21.960
 So that's just kind of my exposure to how things are going

00:25:21.960 --> 00:25:24.780
 for the opportunities in digital ministry.

00:25:25.260 --> 00:25:28.420
 And for me, when I finished this program, this degree,

00:25:29.020 --> 00:25:31.920
 I was actually talking to Mary Lowe yesterday evening

00:25:31.920 --> 00:25:32.900
 about opportunities.

00:25:33.680 --> 00:25:36.080
 And basically she turned my attention

00:25:36.080 --> 00:25:38.800
 to the Doctor of Education for Christian Leadership

00:25:38.800 --> 00:25:41.000
 and looking at my background and everything,

00:25:41.120 --> 00:25:42.120
 it's something I'm gonna be praying over

00:25:42.120 --> 00:25:44.480
 for the next few months to see if that's the route to go.

00:25:44.480 --> 00:25:48.260
 And basically it's, you know, taking leadership principles,

00:25:48.400 --> 00:25:49.660
 applying to the Christian walk,

00:25:49.800 --> 00:25:51.840
 but then also doing research dedicated to

00:25:51.840 --> 00:25:54.140
 what do we do to lead the digital church?

00:25:54.640 --> 00:25:56.460
 And so there's a lot of opportunities there

00:25:56.460 --> 00:25:58.780
 that honestly I'm getting pretty excited about thinking about.

00:25:58.900 --> 00:26:02.380
 So that's something that I think I will pursue after this.

00:26:02.720 --> 00:26:05.940
 And then definitely whether the Lord says

00:26:05.940 --> 00:26:08.460
 before I retire from law enforcement or after,

00:26:08.880 --> 00:26:10.980
 I do foresee some type of full-time ministry

00:26:10.980 --> 00:26:12.000
 in my future for sure.

00:26:12.260 --> 00:26:14.880
 Dr. Lowe, you've done a very good job training him.

00:26:15.820 --> 00:26:18.980
 They're, you know, just even listening to him talk.

00:26:19.560 --> 00:26:21.800
 You know, so often you get a young guy, new guy,

00:26:22.040 --> 00:26:25.560
 he's touting all this money, I need all this gear,

00:26:25.740 --> 00:26:28.560
 I need all this structure, you know, give me the studio.

00:26:28.760 --> 00:26:30.220
 Everything he just said was free.

00:26:31.100 --> 00:26:33.920
 You know, maybe you're paying five bucks a month for Discord

00:26:33.920 --> 00:26:35.620
 if you want like all the features

00:26:35.620 --> 00:26:37.760
 that you probably don't even need.

00:26:38.320 --> 00:26:41.020
 And so, you know, even what I love here,

00:26:41.060 --> 00:26:42.480
 and even Dan, just to hear you say,

00:26:42.560 --> 00:26:45.240
 yeah, I was doing this and we pivoted, we changed.

00:26:46.320 --> 00:26:48.060
 I started exploring some other ideas

00:26:48.060 --> 00:26:49.820
 and we went a different direction.

00:26:50.800 --> 00:26:52.940
 We'd learned something and we adjusted from it.

00:26:53.080 --> 00:26:55.380
 And so like, this is beautiful.

00:26:56.000 --> 00:26:57.940
 I just had a gentleman reach out to me yesterday

00:26:57.940 --> 00:26:58.680
 that he was like,

00:26:58.700 --> 00:27:00.300
 hey, I'm glad we made the move from Facebook

00:27:00.300 --> 00:27:02.260
 because Facebook, he just didn't, he didn't feel safe.

00:27:02.480 --> 00:27:04.240
 And if you don't feel safe having a conversation,

00:27:04.240 --> 00:27:05.540
 then why are we going to stay there?

00:27:05.880 --> 00:27:07.980
 And he was like, Discord, I feel like is private

00:27:07.980 --> 00:27:09.120
 and he works in law enforcement.

00:27:09.620 --> 00:27:12.200
 And he was like, you know, I feel like I can connect here.

00:27:12.600 --> 00:27:15.560
 And I mean, he was sharing some photos from his job

00:27:15.560 --> 00:27:17.500
 and, you know, telling me what he did

00:27:17.500 --> 00:27:19.560
 and, you know, me having a law enforcement background,

00:27:19.660 --> 00:27:21.060
 it was a nice mutual connection.

00:27:21.460 --> 00:27:24.440
 But just hearing that he didn't feel safe

00:27:24.440 --> 00:27:26.400
 and having a good spot in Facebook,

00:27:26.520 --> 00:27:27.760
 just for different reasons,

00:27:28.240 --> 00:27:31.360
 it's to me as a leader in any type of environment,

00:27:31.480 --> 00:27:32.180
 especially in ministry,

00:27:32.180 --> 00:27:34.760
 we need to reach people where they are,

00:27:34.840 --> 00:27:36.060
 which many folks will think,

00:27:36.140 --> 00:27:37.540
 okay, well, that means cast a big net,

00:27:37.680 --> 00:27:38.780
 you know, go for the whole ocean.

00:27:39.240 --> 00:27:41.440
 But at the same time, it's not about just fishing,

00:27:41.540 --> 00:27:43.420
 it's about then investing in that time.

00:27:43.940 --> 00:27:45.600
 And so it's just one of those things

00:27:45.600 --> 00:27:46.300
 that you've got to,

00:27:46.800 --> 00:27:47.680
 you got to target it right

00:27:47.680 --> 00:27:48.680
 and don't be afraid to change.

00:27:49.300 --> 00:27:51.020
 Dr. Lowe, what does strategy look like?

00:27:51.480 --> 00:27:54.120
 One of your four classes is strategy.

00:27:55.240 --> 00:27:57.300
 How are you training people

00:27:57.300 --> 00:27:59.620
 towards having a digital strategy?

00:27:59.620 --> 00:28:01.200
 That's not an easy thing to do,

00:28:01.240 --> 00:28:02.560
 especially, you know,

00:28:02.620 --> 00:28:03.760
 they may have understanding

00:28:03.760 --> 00:28:05.420
 that may come in completely cold.

00:28:05.640 --> 00:28:08.760
 So how do we educate future pastors

00:28:08.760 --> 00:28:10.120
 to have a digital strategy?

00:28:10.800 --> 00:28:12.880
 Well, one of the things we try to help students do,

00:28:12.980 --> 00:28:14.260
 especially in that first course,

00:28:14.360 --> 00:28:15.820
 but really throughout the entire

00:28:15.820 --> 00:28:17.980
 Cognate itself,

00:28:17.980 --> 00:28:20.400
 and I would say throughout the entire

00:28:20.400 --> 00:28:23.100
 degree program that we put students in,

00:28:23.620 --> 00:28:25.280
 but especially in this area

00:28:25.280 --> 00:28:26.420
 that we're talking about,

00:28:27.020 --> 00:28:29.240
 we kind of zoom out

00:28:29.240 --> 00:28:30.480
 and then we zoom in

00:28:30.480 --> 00:28:31.560
 to give them perspective.

00:28:31.800 --> 00:28:33.820
 So in the zooming out phase of things,

00:28:33.820 --> 00:28:35.180
 we're trying to give them

00:28:35.180 --> 00:28:36.840
 the big picture overview

00:28:36.840 --> 00:28:40.340
 of how God has created the world.

00:28:40.680 --> 00:28:42.740
 It is an interconnected world.

00:28:43.600 --> 00:28:45.780
 That's part of the creational design

00:28:45.780 --> 00:28:47.680
 that's there from the very beginning.

00:28:48.240 --> 00:28:51.320
 And that feature of interconnectedness

00:28:51.320 --> 00:28:53.960
 touches all levels of our existence

00:28:53.960 --> 00:28:55.060
 as human beings.

00:28:55.480 --> 00:28:57.160
 It's at a quantum level,

00:28:57.520 --> 00:28:58.400
 physical level,

00:28:58.960 --> 00:29:00.360
 creational level,

00:29:00.840 --> 00:29:01.660
 social level,

00:29:02.300 --> 00:29:03.300
 certainly physical,

00:29:03.620 --> 00:29:06.240
 and we would argue spiritually as well.

00:29:07.240 --> 00:29:09.900
 And so part of what it means

00:29:09.900 --> 00:29:11.780
 from the wisdom literature

00:29:11.780 --> 00:29:12.560
 of the Old Testament

00:29:12.560 --> 00:29:13.980
 to have the fear of the Lord

00:29:13.980 --> 00:29:16.380
 is to recognize that order

00:29:16.380 --> 00:29:18.240
 and that arrangement

00:29:18.240 --> 00:29:19.640
 and that intelligence

00:29:19.640 --> 00:29:21.500
 that's organizing the world

00:29:21.500 --> 00:29:23.200
 in which God has made

00:29:23.200 --> 00:29:25.260
 and cooperating with the way

00:29:25.260 --> 00:29:26.360
 in which God has designed

00:29:26.360 --> 00:29:27.340
 that world to function.

00:29:28.140 --> 00:29:29.080
 And part of that

00:29:29.080 --> 00:29:31.320
 has to do with this reality

00:29:31.320 --> 00:29:33.200
 that God has made things

00:29:33.200 --> 00:29:35.140
 to function and to grow

00:29:35.140 --> 00:29:36.500
 in a certain kind of way

00:29:36.500 --> 00:29:38.480
 that's consistent with that.

00:29:38.540 --> 00:29:39.480
 And that's kind of where

00:29:39.480 --> 00:29:42.380
 our discussion of spiritual formation

00:29:42.380 --> 00:29:43.420
 comes into play

00:29:43.420 --> 00:29:44.700
 because we recognize

00:29:44.700 --> 00:29:46.320
 that what we see

00:29:46.320 --> 00:29:47.520
 in the spiritual realm

00:29:47.520 --> 00:29:49.160
 in terms of how we grow

00:29:49.160 --> 00:29:49.780
 as Christians

00:29:49.780 --> 00:29:52.360
 is really part of a larger reality

00:29:52.360 --> 00:29:53.340
 of how things grow

00:29:53.340 --> 00:29:54.680
 and everything that God has made.

00:29:54.960 --> 00:29:56.000
 That's the reason why

00:29:56.000 --> 00:29:57.480
 in both the Old Testament

00:29:57.480 --> 00:29:58.340
 and the New Testament,

00:29:59.240 --> 00:30:01.540
 especially in the parables of Jesus

00:30:01.540 --> 00:30:03.060
 and in the writings

00:30:03.060 --> 00:30:04.080
 of the Apostle Paul,

00:30:04.380 --> 00:30:06.340
 they always point us back to nature

00:30:06.340 --> 00:30:07.700
 and have us look at

00:30:07.700 --> 00:30:09.660
 some feature of natural growth

00:30:09.660 --> 00:30:11.420
 to illustrate a feature

00:30:11.420 --> 00:30:12.380
 of spiritual growth

00:30:12.380 --> 00:30:12.940
 in the kingdom

00:30:12.940 --> 00:30:13.960
 or in the church

00:30:13.960 --> 00:30:15.580
 or in the individual Christian.

00:30:16.080 --> 00:30:16.900
 And all of that,

00:30:17.000 --> 00:30:17.540
 we argue,

00:30:17.540 --> 00:30:18.920
 is part of the way

00:30:18.920 --> 00:30:19.420
 in which God

00:30:19.420 --> 00:30:20.780
 has designed things to function.

00:30:20.880 --> 00:30:22.600
 It's an ecological reality.

00:30:22.800 --> 00:30:24.220
 It's where we get that language.

00:30:24.800 --> 00:30:27.520
 And so we try to bring that to bear

00:30:27.520 --> 00:30:30.080
 in terms of how we teach students

00:30:30.080 --> 00:30:31.100
 to read the scriptures,

00:30:31.320 --> 00:30:34.600
 that there is this pattern

00:30:34.600 --> 00:30:36.340
 that's there in the word of God

00:30:36.340 --> 00:30:38.500
 that where it all hangs together

00:30:38.500 --> 00:30:39.840
 and makes sense

00:30:39.840 --> 00:30:41.660
 and there's cogency there.

00:30:42.120 --> 00:30:44.160
 There's a beauty to its unity.

00:30:44.620 --> 00:30:46.020
 And so we try to help students

00:30:46.020 --> 00:30:48.060
 see that from Genesis to Revelation,

00:30:48.240 --> 00:30:50.880
 to see the missional movement of God

00:30:50.880 --> 00:30:52.880
 from the opening chapters of Genesis

00:30:52.880 --> 00:30:54.180
 to the closing chapter

00:30:54.180 --> 00:30:55.240
 of the book of Revelation.

00:30:55.760 --> 00:30:56.620
 And if there is purpose

00:30:56.620 --> 00:30:57.980
 and design in all of this,

00:30:58.020 --> 00:30:59.180
 and what we have to do

00:30:59.180 --> 00:31:00.140
 as God's people,

00:31:00.580 --> 00:31:01.680
 especially as we're preparing

00:31:01.680 --> 00:31:02.420
 for ministry,

00:31:03.300 --> 00:31:05.140
 is to understand that reality

00:31:05.140 --> 00:31:06.200
 and figure out

00:31:06.200 --> 00:31:07.520
 where we plug into it.

00:31:08.060 --> 00:31:09.440
 And part of that reality

00:31:09.440 --> 00:31:10.640
 that we see from scripture

00:31:10.640 --> 00:31:12.440
 is that when the New Testament

00:31:12.440 --> 00:31:13.760
 talks about the church,

00:31:13.980 --> 00:31:15.380
 it always talks about it

00:31:15.380 --> 00:31:16.000
 in the combination

00:31:16.000 --> 00:31:17.200
 of the church gathered

00:31:17.200 --> 00:31:18.280
 and the church scattered.

00:31:19.040 --> 00:31:19.900
 The book of Acts

00:31:19.900 --> 00:31:20.800
 is built that way.

00:31:21.180 --> 00:31:22.620
 The first seven chapters

00:31:22.620 --> 00:31:23.740
 of the book of Acts

00:31:23.740 --> 00:31:24.860
 describes the church

00:31:24.860 --> 00:31:26.060
 gathered in Jerusalem.

00:31:26.460 --> 00:31:27.780
 The beginning in chapter 8

00:31:27.780 --> 00:31:28.580
 through 28,

00:31:29.040 --> 00:31:30.100
 there the focus changes

00:31:30.100 --> 00:31:30.960
 and we see the church

00:31:30.960 --> 00:31:32.180
 scattered around the globe.

00:31:32.960 --> 00:31:33.820
 And that combination

00:31:33.820 --> 00:31:35.460
 of the church gathered

00:31:35.460 --> 00:31:36.120
 and scattered

00:31:36.120 --> 00:31:37.380
 is the true nature

00:31:37.380 --> 00:31:38.080
 of the church.

00:31:38.500 --> 00:31:40.020
 We've only emphasized

00:31:40.020 --> 00:31:40.980
 one half of it

00:31:40.980 --> 00:31:42.120
 up to this point in history,

00:31:42.120 --> 00:31:44.240
 but now because of realities

00:31:44.240 --> 00:31:45.120
 that confront us,

00:31:45.160 --> 00:31:46.460
 we're being forced

00:31:46.460 --> 00:31:48.020
 to think more deeply

00:31:48.020 --> 00:31:48.640
 about this

00:31:48.640 --> 00:31:49.340
 and to go back

00:31:49.340 --> 00:31:50.560
 to our biblical roots

00:31:50.560 --> 00:31:51.820
 and to examine things

00:31:51.820 --> 00:31:52.620
 a little more closely

00:31:52.620 --> 00:31:53.340
 and to recognize

00:31:53.340 --> 00:31:54.980
 that we missed something

00:31:54.980 --> 00:31:56.140
 all these years

00:31:56.140 --> 00:31:57.260
 because we are so focused

00:31:57.260 --> 00:31:58.960
 on one idea

00:31:58.960 --> 00:32:00.020
 of what the church is like

00:32:00.020 --> 00:32:01.300
 or where church took place.

00:32:01.300 --> 00:32:02.400
 But now we're beginning

00:32:02.400 --> 00:32:04.020
 to see a more global perspective

00:32:04.020 --> 00:32:05.520
 and I think it's that

00:32:05.520 --> 00:32:07.000
 that we help our students

00:32:07.000 --> 00:32:08.200
 see and to understand.

00:32:08.760 --> 00:32:09.480
 Dr. Lowe,

00:32:09.560 --> 00:32:10.540
 I couldn't agree more.

00:32:11.200 --> 00:32:12.200
 This is fascinating

00:32:12.200 --> 00:32:13.420
 because for a long time

00:32:13.420 --> 00:32:14.980
 the church has focused

00:32:14.980 --> 00:32:16.660
 more on the church gathered.

00:32:17.460 --> 00:32:19.100
 This degree does much

00:32:19.100 --> 00:32:20.500
 to legitimize

00:32:20.500 --> 00:32:22.660
 from a global church perspective

00:32:22.660 --> 00:32:23.320
 our views

00:32:23.320 --> 00:32:24.840
 on digital and online ministry.

00:32:25.300 --> 00:32:26.320
 Talk to me about,

00:32:26.520 --> 00:32:27.300
 because, you know,

00:32:27.400 --> 00:32:28.100
 obviously in order

00:32:28.100 --> 00:32:28.680
 to pursue this,

00:32:28.780 --> 00:32:29.480
 you're thinking about

00:32:29.480 --> 00:32:30.320
 down the road too

00:32:30.320 --> 00:32:31.560
 in terms of what

00:32:31.560 --> 00:32:32.640
 this is going to do.

00:32:33.000 --> 00:32:33.660
 How do you see

00:32:33.660 --> 00:32:34.460
 something like this

00:32:34.460 --> 00:32:35.260
 having an impact

00:32:35.260 --> 00:32:37.700
 on Western church,

00:32:37.860 --> 00:32:39.320
 how we view online ministry,

00:32:39.460 --> 00:32:39.980
 its legitimacy?

00:32:40.680 --> 00:32:41.780
 Because this opens up

00:32:41.780 --> 00:32:43.000
 to me a lot of doors

00:32:43.000 --> 00:32:44.020
 for this.

00:32:44.080 --> 00:32:45.220
 And so how do you foresee

00:32:45.220 --> 00:32:46.240
 this making an impact?

00:32:46.780 --> 00:32:47.620
 Well, there's kind of

00:32:47.620 --> 00:32:49.020
 an ancient future

00:32:49.020 --> 00:32:50.040
 connection to it,

00:32:50.060 --> 00:32:50.480
 I think.

00:32:50.820 --> 00:32:51.680
 When you go back

00:32:51.680 --> 00:32:52.680
 to the book of Genesis

00:32:52.680 --> 00:32:54.540
 and you look at

00:32:54.540 --> 00:32:56.440
 the way in which

00:32:56.440 --> 00:32:57.080
 Abraham,

00:32:57.840 --> 00:32:58.260
 Isaac,

00:32:58.520 --> 00:32:59.340
 and Jacob

00:32:59.340 --> 00:33:00.680
 carried out

00:33:00.680 --> 00:33:01.500
 their understanding

00:33:01.500 --> 00:33:02.680
 of the mission of God

00:33:02.680 --> 00:33:03.720
 that was established

00:33:03.720 --> 00:33:05.120
 in Genesis chapter 12,

00:33:06.060 --> 00:33:07.680
 what you see them doing

00:33:07.680 --> 00:33:09.480
 is building altars

00:33:09.480 --> 00:33:12.160
 at strategic locations

00:33:12.160 --> 00:33:14.200
 in the land of promise.

00:33:14.880 --> 00:33:15.360
 In fact,

00:33:15.420 --> 00:33:16.680
 all of the altars

00:33:16.680 --> 00:33:18.360
 that the patriarchs built

00:33:18.360 --> 00:33:20.000
 are on one single

00:33:20.000 --> 00:33:21.580
 north-south roadway

00:33:21.580 --> 00:33:24.640
 that had the potential

00:33:24.640 --> 00:33:26.260
 of not only reaching

00:33:26.260 --> 00:33:26.960
 the inhabitants

00:33:26.960 --> 00:33:27.820
 of the land,

00:33:28.120 --> 00:33:28.920
 but the inhabitants

00:33:28.920 --> 00:33:29.640
 of the world.

00:33:30.820 --> 00:33:32.120
 Because all the nations

00:33:32.120 --> 00:33:32.720
 of the world

00:33:32.720 --> 00:33:33.980
 who wanted to do commerce

00:33:33.980 --> 00:33:34.700
 around the world

00:33:34.700 --> 00:33:35.940
 with Egypt and Assyria,

00:33:36.200 --> 00:33:37.260
 they all passed through there.

00:33:38.060 --> 00:33:40.160
 So Israel was strategically

00:33:40.160 --> 00:33:41.960
 located by God purposely

00:33:41.960 --> 00:33:43.640
 so that she could carry out

00:33:43.640 --> 00:33:44.120
 her mission

00:33:44.120 --> 00:33:45.320
 to the nations of the world.

00:33:46.080 --> 00:33:47.620
 Well, I think we have today

00:33:47.620 --> 00:33:49.140
 a technological altar

00:33:49.140 --> 00:33:51.320
 that we can plant anywhere.

00:33:52.340 --> 00:33:53.380
 And through those

00:33:53.380 --> 00:33:54.820
 building of altars

00:33:54.820 --> 00:33:55.640
 on the internet,

00:33:56.120 --> 00:33:57.120
 we have the potential

00:33:57.120 --> 00:33:58.720
 of reaching the same audience,

00:33:58.820 --> 00:33:59.760
 the nations of the world.

00:33:59.940 --> 00:34:01.300
 That mission hasn't changed.

00:34:01.360 --> 00:34:02.440
 It hasn't been rescinded.

00:34:02.640 --> 00:34:03.360
 We're just using

00:34:03.360 --> 00:34:04.300
 new methodologies

00:34:04.300 --> 00:34:04.960
 for doing it.

00:34:05.180 --> 00:34:06.740
 They built physical altars.

00:34:06.840 --> 00:34:07.420
 We're going to build

00:34:07.420 --> 00:34:08.400
 digital altars,

00:34:08.660 --> 00:34:09.680
 but we're really doing

00:34:09.680 --> 00:34:10.880
 the very same kind of thing.

00:34:10.940 --> 00:34:11.780
 We're being consistent

00:34:11.780 --> 00:34:12.420
 with what God

00:34:12.420 --> 00:34:13.340
 has called us to do.

00:34:14.000 --> 00:34:14.720
 That was beautiful.

00:34:16.200 --> 00:34:18.380
 Can people audit your class?

00:34:18.460 --> 00:34:20.000
 Can I just like hang out,

00:34:20.100 --> 00:34:21.780
 be like the Zoom

00:34:21.780 --> 00:34:23.580
 like fly on the wall?

00:34:23.820 --> 00:34:24.460
 Like that was,

00:34:24.880 --> 00:34:25.800
 oh my gosh.

00:34:26.300 --> 00:34:28.320
 Where were you 20 years ago?

00:34:28.440 --> 00:34:29.360
 I would totally

00:34:29.360 --> 00:34:30.120
 would have done this.

00:34:30.220 --> 00:34:31.500
 This is great.

00:34:32.120 --> 00:34:33.180
 Let me ask this question.

00:34:33.420 --> 00:34:35.360
 I don't even know

00:34:35.360 --> 00:34:36.200
 if I can ask that question.

00:34:36.360 --> 00:34:37.580
 That was just incredible.

00:34:39.200 --> 00:34:39.500
 All right.

00:34:39.560 --> 00:34:40.520
 So I did a webinar.

00:34:40.860 --> 00:34:42.240
 I think it was one of the times

00:34:42.240 --> 00:34:43.080
 that I spoke at Liberty.

00:34:43.280 --> 00:34:43.640
 Honestly,

00:34:44.500 --> 00:34:45.680
 and I don't mean this ego,

00:34:45.840 --> 00:34:47.220
 like I've spoken so many times

00:34:47.220 --> 00:34:48.580
 in the past eight months.

00:34:48.720 --> 00:34:49.880
 I don't even like remember

00:34:49.880 --> 00:34:50.640
 half the time

00:34:50.640 --> 00:34:51.960
 if I've done it or not.

00:34:52.100 --> 00:34:54.720
 But I spoke at a seminary

00:34:54.720 --> 00:34:55.340
 or a university

00:34:55.340 --> 00:34:56.860
 and there was a student,

00:34:57.020 --> 00:34:57.660
 seminary student

00:34:57.660 --> 00:34:59.280
 in the thing.

00:34:59.360 --> 00:35:00.360
 And one of the questions

00:35:00.360 --> 00:35:01.560
 that popped up,

00:35:02.020 --> 00:35:02.600
 and honestly,

00:35:02.700 --> 00:35:04.000
 it kind of stuck with me.

00:35:04.500 --> 00:35:06.060
 The question was basically,

00:35:06.580 --> 00:35:06.780
 yeah,

00:35:06.800 --> 00:35:07.420
 I'm almost done

00:35:07.420 --> 00:35:08.500
 with my degree.

00:35:09.300 --> 00:35:11.620
 And like all this digital stuff

00:35:11.620 --> 00:35:12.280
 is now happening,

00:35:12.420 --> 00:35:13.200
 COVID to reality.

00:35:13.800 --> 00:35:16.120
 Do I need to just like start over?

00:35:16.600 --> 00:35:18.060
 Do I need to just give up

00:35:18.060 --> 00:35:19.460
 all this physical training

00:35:19.460 --> 00:35:21.100
 and shift over

00:35:21.100 --> 00:35:24.020
 to a digital mindset?

00:35:24.320 --> 00:35:24.500
 Now,

00:35:24.700 --> 00:35:26.360
 I'm curious kind of

00:35:26.360 --> 00:35:28.220
 what your response is

00:35:28.220 --> 00:35:29.520
 because what I hear

00:35:29.520 --> 00:35:31.540
 is not digital for digital,

00:35:31.680 --> 00:35:32.440
 but I really feel

00:35:32.440 --> 00:35:33.400
 what I'm hearing,

00:35:33.480 --> 00:35:33.960
 it sounds like

00:35:33.960 --> 00:35:36.400
 it's more of a dispersed mindset,

00:35:36.400 --> 00:35:38.440
 not necessarily digital technology,

00:35:38.600 --> 00:35:40.600
 but more disciple making

00:35:40.600 --> 00:35:41.580
 and empowering

00:35:41.580 --> 00:35:42.800
 and priesthood of all believers.

00:35:43.100 --> 00:35:45.160
 Like what is this tension

00:35:45.160 --> 00:35:46.560
 that we're living in

00:35:46.560 --> 00:35:48.700
 and of doing digital ministry

00:35:48.700 --> 00:35:50.100
 versus maybe just doing

00:35:50.100 --> 00:35:51.540
 the biblical ministry

00:35:51.540 --> 00:35:52.700
 that God called us to

00:35:52.700 --> 00:35:54.080
 in digital space?

00:35:54.220 --> 00:35:55.160
 Like talk to me a little bit

00:35:55.160 --> 00:35:55.700
 about this here,

00:35:55.760 --> 00:35:56.220
 Dr. Lowe.

00:35:56.540 --> 00:35:56.840
 Well,

00:35:56.960 --> 00:35:57.740
 last spring,

00:35:57.800 --> 00:35:58.460
 I did an interview

00:35:58.460 --> 00:35:59.840
 with Christianity Today,

00:36:00.240 --> 00:36:00.920
 Mark Gallaty,

00:36:01.100 --> 00:36:02.060
 their editor-in-chief

00:36:02.060 --> 00:36:02.600
 at the time.

00:36:03.060 --> 00:36:04.040
 And one of the things

00:36:04.040 --> 00:36:05.140
 I said in that interview

00:36:05.140 --> 00:36:06.560
 was that we're doing

00:36:06.560 --> 00:36:09.020
 church ministry

00:36:09.020 --> 00:36:10.440
 in a digital age,

00:36:10.460 --> 00:36:11.080
 but we're using

00:36:11.080 --> 00:36:12.300
 an analog model

00:36:12.300 --> 00:36:12.900
 to do it.

00:36:13.980 --> 00:36:14.760
 And what I meant

00:36:14.760 --> 00:36:15.900
 by that was that

00:36:15.900 --> 00:36:18.060
 in many cases,

00:36:18.620 --> 00:36:19.600
 our theology

00:36:19.600 --> 00:36:20.840
 has not caught up

00:36:20.840 --> 00:36:21.780
 with the technology.

00:36:22.560 --> 00:36:25.420
 We have theological

00:36:25.420 --> 00:36:26.820
 and biblical ideas

00:36:26.820 --> 00:36:27.520
 and concepts

00:36:27.520 --> 00:36:28.300
 of the church,

00:36:28.360 --> 00:36:29.380
 let's say for instance,

00:36:30.180 --> 00:36:31.080
 that are,

00:36:31.700 --> 00:36:32.700
 whether we realize it

00:36:32.700 --> 00:36:33.160
 or not,

00:36:33.240 --> 00:36:34.640
 are tied to place.

00:36:35.700 --> 00:36:36.540
 When in reality,

00:36:36.660 --> 00:36:37.380
 when Paul talks

00:36:37.380 --> 00:36:38.020
 about the church,

00:36:38.100 --> 00:36:38.720
 he talks about

00:36:38.720 --> 00:36:39.880
 being tied

00:36:39.880 --> 00:36:40.580
 to a person.

00:36:41.800 --> 00:36:42.780
 Place is irrelevant

00:36:42.780 --> 00:36:43.520
 for him.

00:36:44.000 --> 00:36:44.960
 It was relevant

00:36:44.960 --> 00:36:46.140
 for Judaism.

00:36:46.400 --> 00:36:46.940
 It was relevant

00:36:46.940 --> 00:36:48.640
 for Second Temple Judaism

00:36:48.640 --> 00:36:49.760
 out of which he came.

00:36:50.460 --> 00:36:51.060
 But he had

00:36:51.060 --> 00:36:52.780
 a revolutionary encounter

00:36:52.780 --> 00:36:53.460
 with the Lord

00:36:53.460 --> 00:36:54.600
 on the road to Damascus.

00:36:54.700 --> 00:36:55.460
 And that encounter

00:36:55.460 --> 00:36:56.100
 with the Lord

00:36:56.100 --> 00:36:57.240
 changed his perspective

00:36:57.240 --> 00:36:58.380
 from wanting

00:36:58.380 --> 00:36:59.040
 to inherit

00:36:59.040 --> 00:37:01.000
 a place

00:37:01.000 --> 00:37:01.860
 in the land

00:37:01.860 --> 00:37:02.800
 to wanting

00:37:02.800 --> 00:37:03.380
 to inherit

00:37:03.380 --> 00:37:04.040
 a relationship

00:37:04.040 --> 00:37:04.940
 in Christ.

00:37:06.080 --> 00:37:07.040
 And so that relationship

00:37:07.040 --> 00:37:08.100
 in Christ

00:37:08.100 --> 00:37:09.720
 became the dominant

00:37:09.720 --> 00:37:11.040
 thinking that Paul had

00:37:11.040 --> 00:37:11.880
 and the core

00:37:11.880 --> 00:37:12.280
 of that

00:37:12.280 --> 00:37:13.100
 was his understanding

00:37:13.100 --> 00:37:14.000
 of the church

00:37:14.000 --> 00:37:14.840
 as the body

00:37:14.840 --> 00:37:15.480
 of Christ.

00:37:16.000 --> 00:37:17.100
 And his idea

00:37:17.100 --> 00:37:18.000
 of the church

00:37:18.000 --> 00:37:19.040
 was global,

00:37:19.500 --> 00:37:19.840
 cosmic

00:37:19.840 --> 00:37:21.140
 in its thinking

00:37:21.140 --> 00:37:22.920
 and in its perception.

00:37:23.440 --> 00:37:24.000
 He saw

00:37:24.000 --> 00:37:24.760
 the body

00:37:24.760 --> 00:37:25.480
 of Christ

00:37:25.480 --> 00:37:27.000
 as the basis

00:37:27.000 --> 00:37:28.560
 for the interconnectedness

00:37:28.560 --> 00:37:29.240
 of all the

00:37:29.240 --> 00:37:30.320
 beautiful members

00:37:30.320 --> 00:37:30.960
 that make up

00:37:30.960 --> 00:37:31.520
 that body.

00:37:31.740 --> 00:37:32.460
 We are all

00:37:32.460 --> 00:37:33.500
 connected to Christ

00:37:33.500 --> 00:37:34.260
 as the head

00:37:34.260 --> 00:37:35.940
 and all of our

00:37:35.940 --> 00:37:37.080
 spiritual nutrients

00:37:37.080 --> 00:37:38.640
 flow from him

00:37:38.640 --> 00:37:39.740
 but they flow

00:37:39.740 --> 00:37:40.460
 through

00:37:40.460 --> 00:37:41.340
 other members

00:37:41.340 --> 00:37:41.860
 of the body

00:37:41.860 --> 00:37:42.380
 of Christ.

00:37:42.880 --> 00:37:43.620
 And it's the combination

00:37:43.620 --> 00:37:45.020
 of flowing from

00:37:45.020 --> 00:37:46.360
 and flowing through

00:37:46.360 --> 00:37:47.720
 that makes possible

00:37:47.720 --> 00:37:48.280
 the growth

00:37:48.280 --> 00:37:48.840
 of the body

00:37:48.840 --> 00:37:49.560
 regardless

00:37:49.560 --> 00:37:50.460
 of where

00:37:50.460 --> 00:37:51.500
 you have it

00:37:51.500 --> 00:37:52.680
 manifested physically

00:37:52.680 --> 00:37:54.000
 or digitally.

00:37:54.180 --> 00:37:54.600
 It doesn't make

00:37:54.600 --> 00:37:55.200
 any difference

00:37:55.200 --> 00:37:56.900
 because in the spirit

00:37:56.900 --> 00:37:58.140
 Christians are always

00:37:58.140 --> 00:37:58.620
 present

00:37:58.620 --> 00:37:59.780
 and never absent.

00:38:00.480 --> 00:38:01.380
 And that theological

00:38:01.380 --> 00:38:02.400
 truth needs to govern

00:38:02.400 --> 00:38:03.140
 how we look at

00:38:03.140 --> 00:38:03.940
 digital and

00:38:03.940 --> 00:38:06.300
 physical church ministry.

00:38:07.320 --> 00:38:08.480
 Dr. Lowe,

00:38:08.560 --> 00:38:09.580
 just out of curiosity

00:38:09.580 --> 00:38:10.160
 because I know

00:38:10.160 --> 00:38:11.140
 Jeff talked a little bit

00:38:11.140 --> 00:38:12.060
 about the digital strategy.

00:38:12.420 --> 00:38:12.940
 For me,

00:38:13.000 --> 00:38:13.640
 one of the weaknesses

00:38:13.640 --> 00:38:14.700
 coming out of seminary

00:38:14.700 --> 00:38:16.080
 was so much strategy

00:38:16.080 --> 00:38:17.120
 was weighed in

00:38:17.120 --> 00:38:17.680
 what was

00:38:17.680 --> 00:38:19.180
 in terms of times past,

00:38:19.260 --> 00:38:19.800
 what had succeeded

00:38:19.800 --> 00:38:20.620
 in times past.

00:38:20.980 --> 00:38:21.860
 How are you guys

00:38:21.860 --> 00:38:23.180
 keeping an eye on

00:38:23.180 --> 00:38:24.380
 pushing your students

00:38:24.380 --> 00:38:25.360
 towards looking

00:38:25.360 --> 00:38:26.120
 towards the future

00:38:26.120 --> 00:38:27.900
 and staying adaptable

00:38:27.900 --> 00:38:28.800
 within a digital

00:38:28.800 --> 00:38:29.260
 strategy?

00:38:30.240 --> 00:38:30.680
 Well,

00:38:30.800 --> 00:38:31.460
 we don't have

00:38:31.460 --> 00:38:32.020
 to do much.

00:38:32.080 --> 00:38:32.460
 I think

00:38:32.460 --> 00:38:33.880
 you got a good

00:38:33.880 --> 00:38:34.540
 example of it

00:38:34.540 --> 00:38:35.180
 here in Dan

00:38:35.180 --> 00:38:35.920
 in terms of

00:38:35.920 --> 00:38:37.980
 what he is like

00:38:37.980 --> 00:38:38.800
 coming into our

00:38:38.800 --> 00:38:39.260
 program.

00:38:39.440 --> 00:38:40.080
 We don't have

00:38:40.080 --> 00:38:41.080
 to do a whole

00:38:41.080 --> 00:38:43.100
 lot of retooling

00:38:43.100 --> 00:38:43.800
 there because

00:38:43.800 --> 00:38:44.640
 the Lord has

00:38:44.640 --> 00:38:45.000
 already been

00:38:45.000 --> 00:38:45.800
 working in his

00:38:45.800 --> 00:38:46.080
 heart.

00:38:46.180 --> 00:38:46.540
 He's already

00:38:46.540 --> 00:38:48.040
 been shaped

00:38:48.040 --> 00:38:48.720
 in terms of

00:38:48.720 --> 00:38:49.340
 his current

00:38:49.340 --> 00:38:50.440
 ministry and

00:38:50.440 --> 00:38:51.020
 all we have

00:38:51.020 --> 00:38:51.440
 to do is

00:38:51.440 --> 00:38:51.860
 kind of do

00:38:51.860 --> 00:38:52.560
 some nudging

00:38:52.560 --> 00:38:53.360
 here and there

00:38:53.360 --> 00:38:53.800
 and that's

00:38:53.800 --> 00:38:54.700
 basically it

00:38:54.700 --> 00:38:55.980
 because we

00:38:55.980 --> 00:38:56.740
 have a different

00:38:56.740 --> 00:38:57.780
 student clientele

00:38:57.780 --> 00:38:58.220
 today than

00:38:58.220 --> 00:38:58.580
 we've had

00:38:58.580 --> 00:38:59.140
 in the past.

00:38:59.280 --> 00:38:59.800
 I see the

00:38:59.800 --> 00:39:00.180
 difference

00:39:00.180 --> 00:39:01.060
 dramatically

00:39:01.060 --> 00:39:01.820
 before me

00:39:01.820 --> 00:39:02.520
 every day

00:39:02.520 --> 00:39:03.080
 either on

00:39:03.080 --> 00:39:03.620
 campus or

00:39:03.620 --> 00:39:04.060
 online.

00:39:04.820 --> 00:39:05.220
 It's a

00:39:05.220 --> 00:39:05.780
 different group

00:39:05.780 --> 00:39:06.380
 of students

00:39:06.380 --> 00:39:07.260
 than what

00:39:07.260 --> 00:39:07.620
 we've had

00:39:07.620 --> 00:39:08.260
 in the past

00:39:08.260 --> 00:39:09.520
 and they're

00:39:09.520 --> 00:39:10.760
 aware of

00:39:10.760 --> 00:39:11.760
 these digital

00:39:11.760 --> 00:39:12.400
 realities.

00:39:12.400 --> 00:39:13.640
 They live a

00:39:13.640 --> 00:39:14.640
 blended existence

00:39:14.640 --> 00:39:16.580
 already and they

00:39:16.580 --> 00:39:17.400
 understand the

00:39:17.400 --> 00:39:18.440
 relationship between

00:39:18.440 --> 00:39:19.320
 the two and

00:39:19.320 --> 00:39:20.620
 so it's a lot

00:39:20.620 --> 00:39:22.160
 easier with the

00:39:22.160 --> 00:39:22.860
 contemporary

00:39:22.860 --> 00:39:23.940
 audiences that we

00:39:23.940 --> 00:39:24.840
 have in most of

00:39:24.840 --> 00:39:25.480
 our classes

00:39:25.480 --> 00:39:26.060
 at the

00:39:26.060 --> 00:39:27.440
 university to

00:39:27.440 --> 00:39:28.220
 be able to

00:39:28.220 --> 00:39:29.040
 make the case

00:39:29.040 --> 00:39:30.060
 for that because

00:39:30.060 --> 00:39:30.660
 they're already

00:39:30.660 --> 00:39:31.400
 doing those kinds

00:39:31.400 --> 00:39:31.760
 of things.

00:39:31.900 --> 00:39:32.500
 It's not every

00:39:32.500 --> 00:39:32.900
 day that you

00:39:32.900 --> 00:39:33.460
 have a student

00:39:33.460 --> 00:39:34.200
 like Dan who's

00:39:34.200 --> 00:39:34.600
 taking your

00:39:34.600 --> 00:39:35.480
 class and he

00:39:35.480 --> 00:39:36.140
 actually takes

00:39:36.140 --> 00:39:36.480
 what you're

00:39:36.480 --> 00:39:37.380
 teaching him and

00:39:37.380 --> 00:39:38.160
 uses that to

00:39:38.160 --> 00:39:39.180
 build an online

00:39:39.180 --> 00:39:39.600
 ministry.

00:39:39.940 --> 00:39:40.300
 So those are

00:39:40.300 --> 00:39:40.760
 the kinds of

00:39:40.760 --> 00:39:41.220
 things that

00:39:41.220 --> 00:39:41.940
 happen when you

00:39:41.940 --> 00:39:43.240
 have the ability

00:39:43.240 --> 00:39:45.580
 to work with

00:39:45.580 --> 00:39:46.280
 students who are

00:39:46.280 --> 00:39:46.880
 already in the

00:39:46.880 --> 00:39:47.680
 process of being

00:39:47.680 --> 00:39:48.120
 formed.

00:39:48.320 --> 00:39:48.940
 That's the reason

00:39:48.940 --> 00:39:49.700
 why we have this

00:39:49.700 --> 00:39:50.980
 ecological frame of

00:39:50.980 --> 00:39:51.280
 reference.

00:39:51.420 --> 00:39:52.780
 We recognize that

00:39:52.780 --> 00:39:53.720
 we are not the

00:39:53.720 --> 00:39:54.700
 only place where

00:39:54.700 --> 00:39:55.400
 students are going

00:39:55.400 --> 00:39:56.140
 to be impacted

00:39:56.140 --> 00:39:57.000
 and transformed

00:39:57.000 --> 00:39:58.580
 through the

00:39:58.580 --> 00:39:59.620
 educational experience

00:39:59.620 --> 00:40:00.200
 they have with

00:40:00.200 --> 00:40:00.440
 us.

00:40:00.520 --> 00:40:01.460
 We recognize that

00:40:01.460 --> 00:40:02.140
 they're connected

00:40:02.140 --> 00:40:02.840
 and interconnected

00:40:02.840 --> 00:40:04.540
 to a variety of

00:40:04.540 --> 00:40:05.880
 ecological environments

00:40:05.880 --> 00:40:06.560
 that are all

00:40:06.560 --> 00:40:07.660
 having an impact

00:40:07.660 --> 00:40:08.980
 and influence on

00:40:08.980 --> 00:40:09.520
 their thinking,

00:40:09.660 --> 00:40:10.340
 on their behavior,

00:40:10.640 --> 00:40:11.360
 on their ministry

00:40:11.360 --> 00:40:12.460
 skills, and all of

00:40:12.460 --> 00:40:12.700
 that.

00:40:12.780 --> 00:40:13.580
 So we're a part

00:40:13.580 --> 00:40:14.460
 of it, but we're

00:40:14.460 --> 00:40:15.320
 not the whole thing.

00:40:15.880 --> 00:40:16.520
 Is the average

00:40:16.520 --> 00:40:18.300
 student, and Dan

00:40:18.300 --> 00:40:19.060
 may be the

00:40:19.060 --> 00:40:20.300
 unicorn, I don't

00:40:20.300 --> 00:40:20.500
 know.

00:40:20.640 --> 00:40:21.160
 I mean that in a

00:40:21.160 --> 00:40:21.680
 good way, Dan,

00:40:21.760 --> 00:40:22.440
 not that you're

00:40:22.440 --> 00:40:23.380
 pink and have a

00:40:23.380 --> 00:40:23.780
 horn on your

00:40:23.780 --> 00:40:23.960
 head.

00:40:25.180 --> 00:40:25.840
 Does the

00:40:25.840 --> 00:40:26.740
 average student

00:40:26.740 --> 00:40:28.340
 walk in, 2020,

00:40:29.040 --> 00:40:29.720
 COVID screwed

00:40:29.720 --> 00:40:30.340
 everything up.

00:40:30.520 --> 00:40:31.840
 Like, the typical

00:40:31.840 --> 00:40:32.620
 model of church

00:40:32.620 --> 00:40:33.660
 has exploded, at

00:40:33.660 --> 00:40:34.900
 least what I'm

00:40:34.900 --> 00:40:35.300
 seeing from

00:40:35.300 --> 00:40:35.900
 Stadia Church

00:40:35.900 --> 00:40:36.180
 Planning.

00:40:36.340 --> 00:40:36.920
 People now want

00:40:36.920 --> 00:40:37.800
 to launch, they

00:40:37.800 --> 00:40:38.340
 want to launch

00:40:38.340 --> 00:40:39.240
 big churches, they

00:40:39.240 --> 00:40:39.740
 want to launch

00:40:39.740 --> 00:40:40.900
 microsite churches,

00:40:41.000 --> 00:40:41.320
 they want to

00:40:41.320 --> 00:40:42.060
 launch digital

00:40:42.060 --> 00:40:42.540
 churches.

00:40:42.940 --> 00:40:44.140
 Like, the model,

00:40:44.260 --> 00:40:44.740
 which means some

00:40:44.740 --> 00:40:45.540
 of the strategy

00:40:45.540 --> 00:40:46.820
 really that you

00:40:46.820 --> 00:40:47.440
 want to coach

00:40:47.440 --> 00:40:48.040
 through has

00:40:48.040 --> 00:40:49.520
 changed because

00:40:49.520 --> 00:40:51.080
 at this point

00:40:51.080 --> 00:40:53.220
 there's so many

00:40:53.220 --> 00:40:54.180
 bifurcated ideas

00:40:54.180 --> 00:40:55.020
 of what church

00:40:55.020 --> 00:40:56.740
 is that I

00:40:56.740 --> 00:40:57.260
 could see where

00:40:57.260 --> 00:40:57.580
 it would be

00:40:57.580 --> 00:40:59.260
 hard to train

00:40:59.260 --> 00:41:00.720
 people because

00:41:00.720 --> 00:41:01.680
 how you do

00:41:01.680 --> 00:41:02.840
 things digitally

00:41:02.840 --> 00:41:03.600
 or how you do

00:41:03.600 --> 00:41:04.420
 things in micro

00:41:04.420 --> 00:41:05.700
 or how you do

00:41:05.700 --> 00:41:06.400
 things in launch

00:41:06.400 --> 00:41:07.000
 large or how

00:41:07.000 --> 00:41:07.740
 you become a

00:41:07.740 --> 00:41:08.660
 physical missionary

00:41:08.660 --> 00:41:09.320
 or a digital

00:41:09.320 --> 00:41:10.120
 missionary, like

00:41:10.120 --> 00:41:11.240
 there's a lot

00:41:11.240 --> 00:41:12.040
 of different

00:41:12.040 --> 00:41:13.960
 specialties in

00:41:13.960 --> 00:41:14.760
 these areas.

00:41:15.540 --> 00:41:16.320
 Do seminary

00:41:16.320 --> 00:41:17.180
 students, when

00:41:17.180 --> 00:41:17.860
 they come in

00:41:17.860 --> 00:41:18.820
 cold, like

00:41:18.820 --> 00:41:19.600
 freshman year,

00:41:19.720 --> 00:41:20.260
 first year I

00:41:20.260 --> 00:41:21.560
 should say, do

00:41:21.560 --> 00:41:22.540
 they know what

00:41:22.540 --> 00:41:23.060
 they want to

00:41:23.060 --> 00:41:23.400
 do?

00:41:23.580 --> 00:41:24.900
 Do they not

00:41:24.900 --> 00:41:25.420
 know?

00:41:25.620 --> 00:41:26.280
 Like, is there a

00:41:26.280 --> 00:41:27.520
 strong calling or

00:41:27.520 --> 00:41:28.780
 is it more like

00:41:28.780 --> 00:41:30.080
 on average, what

00:41:30.080 --> 00:41:30.980
 are you feeling?

00:41:31.180 --> 00:41:31.920
 Maybe for both

00:41:31.920 --> 00:41:32.500
 you guys, what

00:41:32.500 --> 00:41:33.380
 are you seeing

00:41:33.380 --> 00:41:34.660
 coming out?

00:41:34.740 --> 00:41:35.340
 What are the

00:41:35.340 --> 00:41:36.080
 seminary students

00:41:36.080 --> 00:41:36.980
 looking to do or

00:41:36.980 --> 00:41:37.400
 do they even

00:41:37.400 --> 00:41:37.820
 know yet?

00:41:38.060 --> 00:41:38.560
 I'll talk from

00:41:38.560 --> 00:41:39.160
 a professor

00:41:39.160 --> 00:41:40.080
 perspective and

00:41:40.080 --> 00:41:40.580
 what I have

00:41:40.580 --> 00:41:41.380
 seen, especially

00:41:41.380 --> 00:41:42.040
 over the last

00:41:42.040 --> 00:41:43.160
 five years, is

00:41:43.160 --> 00:41:43.940
 that the

00:41:43.960 --> 00:41:44.720
 most of the

00:41:44.720 --> 00:41:45.200
 students who

00:41:45.200 --> 00:41:45.640
 are coming

00:41:45.640 --> 00:41:47.060
 in have a

00:41:47.060 --> 00:41:47.580
 pretty clear

00:41:47.580 --> 00:41:48.400
 idea of what

00:41:48.400 --> 00:41:48.880
 it is they're

00:41:48.880 --> 00:41:49.260
 going to get

00:41:49.260 --> 00:41:49.740
 out of the

00:41:49.740 --> 00:41:50.100
 seminary

00:41:50.100 --> 00:41:50.620
 experience.

00:41:50.860 --> 00:41:51.260
 They already

00:41:51.260 --> 00:41:52.000
 have a pretty

00:41:52.000 --> 00:41:52.840
 clear picture of

00:41:52.840 --> 00:41:53.140
 where they're

00:41:53.140 --> 00:41:53.680
 going to head

00:41:53.680 --> 00:41:54.560
 after they

00:41:54.560 --> 00:41:56.140
 graduate, and

00:41:56.140 --> 00:41:57.960
 they're actually

00:41:57.960 --> 00:41:58.940
 involved in

00:41:58.940 --> 00:41:59.680
 doing things

00:41:59.680 --> 00:42:00.260
 right now.

00:42:01.040 --> 00:42:01.460
 I had a

00:42:01.460 --> 00:42:01.820
 student the

00:42:01.820 --> 00:42:02.300
 other day who

00:42:02.300 --> 00:42:02.760
 got up and

00:42:02.760 --> 00:42:03.560
 gave a report

00:42:03.560 --> 00:42:04.980
 in class talking

00:42:04.980 --> 00:42:06.260
 about her

00:42:06.260 --> 00:42:08.680
 online youth

00:42:08.680 --> 00:42:09.480
 ministry that

00:42:09.480 --> 00:42:10.300
 she's conducting

00:42:10.300 --> 00:42:11.320
 so that she

00:42:11.320 --> 00:42:12.520
 meets twice a

00:42:12.520 --> 00:42:13.120
 week with this

00:42:13.120 --> 00:42:13.820
 group of young

00:42:13.820 --> 00:42:14.800
 people, and

00:42:14.800 --> 00:42:15.340
 she has a

00:42:15.340 --> 00:42:16.700
 whole design

00:42:16.700 --> 00:42:17.280
 in place that

00:42:17.280 --> 00:42:17.860
 she created

00:42:17.860 --> 00:42:19.920
 herself that

00:42:19.920 --> 00:42:20.420
 she goes

00:42:20.420 --> 00:42:20.920
 through.

00:42:21.340 --> 00:42:22.000
 She has

00:42:22.000 --> 00:42:22.620
 certain things

00:42:22.620 --> 00:42:23.060
 she does in

00:42:23.060 --> 00:42:23.640
 one session,

00:42:23.800 --> 00:42:24.240
 certain things

00:42:24.240 --> 00:42:24.840
 she does in

00:42:24.840 --> 00:42:25.900
 another, and

00:42:25.900 --> 00:42:26.360
 she has a

00:42:26.360 --> 00:42:26.960
 really clear

00:42:26.960 --> 00:42:27.520
 idea of what

00:42:27.520 --> 00:42:28.060
 she's trying to

00:42:28.060 --> 00:42:28.700
 accomplish and

00:42:28.700 --> 00:42:29.340
 how to do it.

00:42:29.600 --> 00:42:30.260
 So what we're

00:42:30.260 --> 00:42:31.380
 doing for her

00:42:31.380 --> 00:42:32.340
 is tweaking all

00:42:32.340 --> 00:42:32.940
 of this and

00:42:32.940 --> 00:42:33.600
 giving her some

00:42:33.600 --> 00:42:34.420
 additional tools

00:42:34.420 --> 00:42:35.540
 and insights to

00:42:35.540 --> 00:42:36.360
 kind of enlarge

00:42:36.360 --> 00:42:37.320
 her already

00:42:37.320 --> 00:42:38.340
 present toolkit

00:42:38.340 --> 00:42:39.220
 doing something

00:42:39.220 --> 00:42:39.860
 she was already

00:42:39.860 --> 00:42:40.480
 doing when she

00:42:40.480 --> 00:42:41.300
 came to us.

00:42:41.780 --> 00:42:42.620
 So that's

00:42:42.620 --> 00:42:43.280
 kind of the

00:42:43.280 --> 00:42:44.640
 rule these

00:42:44.640 --> 00:42:45.160
 days rather

00:42:45.160 --> 00:42:45.540
 than the

00:42:45.540 --> 00:42:46.100
 exception as

00:42:46.100 --> 00:42:46.460
 it was in

00:42:46.460 --> 00:42:46.920
 the past.

00:42:47.380 --> 00:42:47.580
 What are you

00:42:47.580 --> 00:42:48.000
 seeing, Dan?

00:42:48.220 --> 00:42:48.620
 So I mean,

00:42:48.720 --> 00:42:49.500
 for me, when I

00:42:49.500 --> 00:42:50.600
 started, I didn't

00:42:50.600 --> 00:42:51.480
 necessarily know

00:42:51.480 --> 00:42:52.040
 where it was

00:42:52.040 --> 00:42:52.300
 going to go.

00:42:52.400 --> 00:42:53.220
 I actually

00:42:53.220 --> 00:42:53.940
 switched probably

00:42:53.940 --> 00:42:54.480
 three or four

00:42:54.480 --> 00:42:55.140
 different cognates

00:42:55.140 --> 00:42:55.800
 before this one

00:42:55.800 --> 00:42:56.260
 came up.

00:42:57.080 --> 00:42:57.640
 I mean, clearly

00:42:57.640 --> 00:42:58.280
 God knew it was

00:42:58.280 --> 00:42:58.840
 coming and it

00:42:58.840 --> 00:42:59.340
 was all part of

00:42:59.340 --> 00:42:59.940
 the plan, but

00:42:59.940 --> 00:43:00.640
 me, I'm trying

00:43:00.640 --> 00:43:01.080
 to figure it

00:43:01.080 --> 00:43:01.560
 out along the

00:43:01.560 --> 00:43:02.200
 way, right, as

00:43:02.200 --> 00:43:02.700
 we all do.

00:43:04.020 --> 00:43:04.540
 But it was

00:43:04.540 --> 00:43:04.860
 just one of

00:43:04.860 --> 00:43:05.320
 those things

00:43:05.320 --> 00:43:06.460
 that I knew

00:43:06.460 --> 00:43:07.860
 for me, God

00:43:07.860 --> 00:43:09.020
 was pulling me

00:43:09.020 --> 00:43:10.080
 towards seminary.

00:43:10.320 --> 00:43:10.660
 It had been

00:43:10.660 --> 00:43:11.760
 something before I

00:43:11.760 --> 00:43:12.180
 got out of the

00:43:12.180 --> 00:43:12.680
 military, I was

00:43:12.680 --> 00:43:12.980
 like, you know,

00:43:13.040 --> 00:43:13.560
 this is something

00:43:13.560 --> 00:43:14.700
 that started to

00:43:14.700 --> 00:43:15.280
 really work on

00:43:15.280 --> 00:43:15.580
 me and there's

00:43:15.580 --> 00:43:15.780
 a lot of

00:43:15.780 --> 00:43:16.460
 questions and I

00:43:16.460 --> 00:43:16.800
 remember having

00:43:16.800 --> 00:43:17.620
 conversations with

00:43:17.620 --> 00:43:18.740
 friends that were

00:43:18.740 --> 00:43:19.720
 in ministry and

00:43:19.720 --> 00:43:20.980
 never felt the

00:43:20.980 --> 00:43:22.040
 definite call yet.

00:43:22.480 --> 00:43:23.380
 But with the

00:43:23.380 --> 00:43:24.080
 start of everything,

00:43:24.260 --> 00:43:25.080
 it's been a

00:43:25.080 --> 00:43:25.740
 no-brainer that

00:43:25.740 --> 00:43:26.580
 yes, there's a

00:43:26.580 --> 00:43:27.220
 call there and

00:43:27.220 --> 00:43:28.020
 how that's going

00:43:28.020 --> 00:43:29.340
 to manifest is

00:43:29.340 --> 00:43:30.260
 still to be

00:43:30.260 --> 00:43:31.060
 determined, but

00:43:31.060 --> 00:43:32.140
 I'm definitely

00:43:32.140 --> 00:43:32.680
 along for the

00:43:32.680 --> 00:43:33.180
 ride and

00:43:33.180 --> 00:43:33.660
 whatnot.

00:43:34.020 --> 00:43:35.720
 I'm going

00:43:35.720 --> 00:43:36.240
 back earlier

00:43:36.240 --> 00:43:36.720
 to a couple

00:43:36.720 --> 00:43:37.120
 of questions

00:43:37.120 --> 00:43:37.680
 that were asked

00:43:37.680 --> 00:43:40.500
 really for the

00:43:40.500 --> 00:43:41.060
 student during

00:43:41.060 --> 00:43:41.500
 the webinar and

00:43:41.500 --> 00:43:42.600
 I was nodding

00:43:42.600 --> 00:43:43.100
 my head yes

00:43:43.100 --> 00:43:43.480
 when you mentioned

00:43:43.480 --> 00:43:43.760
 it because I

00:43:43.760 --> 00:43:44.200
 remember watching

00:43:44.200 --> 00:43:44.820
 that webinar and

00:43:44.820 --> 00:43:45.400
 that question

00:43:45.400 --> 00:43:46.100
 coming in and

00:43:46.100 --> 00:43:46.460
 you were like,

00:43:46.640 --> 00:43:47.200
 well, how do I

00:43:47.200 --> 00:43:47.720
 answer that?

00:43:48.000 --> 00:43:48.860
 Because so many

00:43:48.860 --> 00:43:50.180
 folks are, you

00:43:50.180 --> 00:43:50.420
 know, they're

00:43:50.420 --> 00:43:50.900
 like, well, do I

00:43:50.900 --> 00:43:51.700
 leave physical to

00:43:51.700 --> 00:43:52.280
 go to digital?

00:43:52.780 --> 00:43:53.960
 But really, I

00:43:53.960 --> 00:43:54.980
 would almost be

00:43:54.980 --> 00:43:55.520
 of the argument

00:43:55.520 --> 00:43:56.820
 of, you know,

00:43:56.920 --> 00:43:57.620
 physical has its

00:43:57.620 --> 00:43:57.840
 place.

00:43:57.920 --> 00:43:58.360
 I mentioned that

00:43:58.360 --> 00:43:58.820
 earlier, it's not

00:43:58.820 --> 00:43:59.020
 going to be

00:43:59.020 --> 00:43:59.420
 replaced.

00:44:00.060 --> 00:44:01.220
 But instead of

00:44:01.220 --> 00:44:02.180
 what I would

00:44:02.180 --> 00:44:02.940
 challenge folks to

00:44:02.940 --> 00:44:03.460
 do is instead

00:44:03.460 --> 00:44:04.080
 of starting

00:44:04.080 --> 00:44:04.820
 with physical,

00:44:05.480 --> 00:44:05.980
 because we

00:44:05.980 --> 00:44:06.480
 already know what

00:44:06.480 --> 00:44:07.120
 that looks like,

00:44:07.420 --> 00:44:07.800
 instead of

00:44:07.800 --> 00:44:08.380
 starting with

00:44:08.380 --> 00:44:09.040
 physical, start

00:44:09.040 --> 00:44:09.640
 with the digital

00:44:09.640 --> 00:44:10.100
 and see how

00:44:10.100 --> 00:44:10.700
 digital can

00:44:10.700 --> 00:44:11.520
 create physical.

00:44:12.160 --> 00:44:12.680
 And that's

00:44:12.680 --> 00:44:13.440
 where we go

00:44:13.440 --> 00:44:13.840
 from that

00:44:13.840 --> 00:44:14.540
 scattered mindset

00:44:14.540 --> 00:44:15.320
 to going out

00:44:15.320 --> 00:44:15.840
 and building

00:44:15.840 --> 00:44:16.340
 the church.

00:44:16.560 --> 00:44:17.140
 Because before

00:44:17.140 --> 00:44:17.540
 you know it,

00:44:17.540 --> 00:44:18.020
 if you invest

00:44:18.020 --> 00:44:18.440
 in digital,

00:44:18.560 --> 00:44:18.960
 you're going to

00:44:18.960 --> 00:44:19.540
 find physical

00:44:19.540 --> 00:44:20.320
 growing.

00:44:20.880 --> 00:44:21.340
 And something

00:44:21.340 --> 00:44:22.040
 that I had the

00:44:22.040 --> 00:44:22.820
 exposure of

00:44:22.820 --> 00:44:23.480
 experiencing, I

00:44:23.480 --> 00:44:23.920
 was part of the

00:44:23.920 --> 00:44:24.720
 CrossFit community

00:44:24.720 --> 00:44:25.240
 and functional

00:44:25.240 --> 00:44:26.040
 fitness when I

00:44:26.040 --> 00:44:26.580
 was in military.

00:44:27.160 --> 00:44:27.640
 And there's a

00:44:27.640 --> 00:44:28.220
 ministry out there

00:44:28.220 --> 00:44:29.160
 called FaithRx.

00:44:29.360 --> 00:44:30.200
 The RX is

00:44:30.200 --> 00:44:31.040
 prescription, you

00:44:31.040 --> 00:44:31.420
 know, doing a

00:44:31.420 --> 00:44:31.840
 workout as

00:44:31.840 --> 00:44:32.320
 prescribed.

00:44:33.000 --> 00:44:33.500
 So they

00:44:33.500 --> 00:44:34.020
 used the

00:44:34.020 --> 00:44:35.040
 FaithRx method

00:44:35.040 --> 00:44:35.700
 and Jim

00:44:35.700 --> 00:44:36.340
 Konzelman and

00:44:36.340 --> 00:44:37.000
 Becky Konzelman,

00:44:37.080 --> 00:44:37.640
 she passed

00:44:37.640 --> 00:44:38.480
 recently, but

00:44:38.480 --> 00:44:39.400
 they started

00:44:39.400 --> 00:44:40.040
 this ministry

00:44:40.040 --> 00:44:41.480
 up where, you

00:44:41.480 --> 00:44:41.700
 know, they

00:44:41.700 --> 00:44:42.160
 were basically

00:44:42.160 --> 00:44:43.340
 putting more

00:44:43.340 --> 00:44:43.860
 or less house

00:44:43.860 --> 00:44:44.560
 churches inside

00:44:44.560 --> 00:44:45.280
 CrossFit gyms.

00:44:45.620 --> 00:44:46.760
 And they were

00:44:46.760 --> 00:44:47.700
 serving folks

00:44:47.700 --> 00:44:48.280
 where they were

00:44:48.280 --> 00:44:49.500
 at and building

00:44:49.500 --> 00:44:50.060
 community.

00:44:50.640 --> 00:44:50.980
 And it's

00:44:50.980 --> 00:44:52.080
 turned into a

00:44:52.080 --> 00:44:52.820
 digital community

00:44:52.820 --> 00:44:53.900
 where they have

00:44:53.900 --> 00:44:55.000
 basically chapters

00:44:55.000 --> 00:44:55.940
 or cells all

00:44:55.940 --> 00:44:56.480
 over the United

00:44:56.480 --> 00:44:57.880
 States that meet

00:44:57.880 --> 00:44:59.060
 in gyms and

00:44:59.060 --> 00:44:59.640
 they have local

00:44:59.640 --> 00:45:00.360
 ministry leaders,

00:45:00.360 --> 00:45:00.980
 but they all

00:45:00.980 --> 00:45:01.640
 come back to

00:45:01.640 --> 00:45:02.520
 the website for

00:45:02.520 --> 00:45:03.440
 devotional content

00:45:03.440 --> 00:45:04.680
 and networking

00:45:04.680 --> 00:45:05.820
 and forums and

00:45:05.820 --> 00:45:06.400
 social media.

00:45:06.640 --> 00:45:07.440
 And it's just

00:45:07.440 --> 00:45:07.900
 one of those

00:45:07.900 --> 00:45:08.940
 things that by

00:45:08.940 --> 00:45:09.620
 launching through

00:45:09.620 --> 00:45:10.480
 digital, you

00:45:10.480 --> 00:45:11.420
 extend your reach,

00:45:11.620 --> 00:45:12.600
 you allow yourself

00:45:12.600 --> 00:45:13.300
 to have different

00:45:13.300 --> 00:45:14.160
 base camps started

00:45:14.160 --> 00:45:14.720
 up in different

00:45:14.720 --> 00:45:15.140
 areas.

00:45:15.680 --> 00:45:16.020
 And it goes

00:45:16.020 --> 00:45:17.540
 back to my

00:45:17.540 --> 00:45:18.360
 second point to

00:45:18.360 --> 00:45:18.960
 go back earlier

00:45:18.960 --> 00:45:20.880
 is if we focus

00:45:20.880 --> 00:45:22.220
 training and

00:45:22.220 --> 00:45:23.200
 methodology to

00:45:23.200 --> 00:45:23.640
 the spiritual

00:45:23.640 --> 00:45:24.360
 disciplines found

00:45:24.360 --> 00:45:25.140
 in Acts 2 42

00:45:25.140 --> 00:45:26.740
 and just get the

00:45:26.740 --> 00:45:27.480
 church back to

00:45:27.480 --> 00:45:27.980
 what the church

00:45:27.980 --> 00:45:28.740
 was created to

00:45:28.740 --> 00:45:30.060
 be in unity,

00:45:30.060 --> 00:45:31.300
 we can then at

00:45:31.300 --> 00:45:31.920
 that point go

00:45:31.920 --> 00:45:32.940
 through and start

00:45:32.940 --> 00:45:33.980
 equipping folks

00:45:33.980 --> 00:45:34.460
 to move.

00:45:35.460 --> 00:45:36.180
 And that's just

00:45:36.180 --> 00:45:36.580
 kind of my

00:45:36.580 --> 00:45:37.180
 thought process.

00:45:37.340 --> 00:45:37.580
 And through

00:45:37.580 --> 00:45:38.440
 that you see

00:45:38.440 --> 00:45:39.720
 that digital

00:45:39.720 --> 00:45:40.300
 ministry actually

00:45:40.300 --> 00:45:40.760
 wrote this an

00:45:40.760 --> 00:45:41.580
 assignment this week

00:45:41.580 --> 00:45:42.440
 is digital

00:45:42.440 --> 00:45:43.700
 ministry is in

00:45:43.700 --> 00:45:45.220
 essence the

00:45:45.220 --> 00:45:45.880
 spiritual body.

00:45:45.980 --> 00:45:46.120
 It's a

00:45:46.120 --> 00:45:46.840
 manifestation of

00:45:46.840 --> 00:45:47.400
 the Holy Spirit.

00:45:47.920 --> 00:45:48.340
 You know, by

00:45:48.340 --> 00:45:49.460
 going through and

00:45:49.460 --> 00:45:50.320
 letting the spirit

00:45:50.320 --> 00:45:51.240
 move within us

00:45:51.240 --> 00:45:52.540
 individually and

00:45:52.540 --> 00:45:53.000
 then moving

00:45:53.000 --> 00:45:53.600
 through digital

00:45:53.600 --> 00:45:54.940
 platforms, you're

00:45:54.940 --> 00:45:56.580
 seeing God show

00:45:56.580 --> 00:45:57.080
 up and make

00:45:57.080 --> 00:45:57.420
 a ways.

00:45:57.620 --> 00:45:58.140
 I mean, you

00:45:58.140 --> 00:45:58.440
 know, then we

00:45:58.440 --> 00:45:59.660
 go back to, you

00:45:59.660 --> 00:45:59.900
 know, the

00:45:59.900 --> 00:46:00.680
 printing press did

00:46:00.680 --> 00:46:01.140
 that when we

00:46:01.140 --> 00:46:01.580
 started having

00:46:01.580 --> 00:46:02.180
 print Bibles.

00:46:02.400 --> 00:46:03.100
 Oh, this is now

00:46:03.100 --> 00:46:03.820
 the new printing

00:46:03.820 --> 00:46:04.180
 press.

00:46:04.840 --> 00:46:06.440
 And for me, it's

00:46:06.440 --> 00:46:07.380
 like I want on

00:46:07.380 --> 00:46:07.740
 this train.

00:46:07.840 --> 00:46:08.140
 I want to see

00:46:08.140 --> 00:46:08.580
 where it's going,

00:46:08.780 --> 00:46:09.200
 you know, and

00:46:09.200 --> 00:46:09.880
 that's just one of

00:46:09.880 --> 00:46:10.960
 those things that I

00:46:10.960 --> 00:46:11.500
 would encourage

00:46:11.500 --> 00:46:12.400
 anyone listening to

00:46:12.400 --> 00:46:13.000
 this, that if

00:46:13.000 --> 00:46:13.760
 there's questions,

00:46:13.960 --> 00:46:14.700
 reach out, ask

00:46:14.700 --> 00:46:15.900
 the questions, but

00:46:15.900 --> 00:46:16.820
 don't hesitate to

00:46:16.820 --> 00:46:17.500
 take that step of

00:46:17.500 --> 00:46:18.320
 faith because digital

00:46:18.320 --> 00:46:19.580
 ministry is clearly

00:46:19.580 --> 00:46:20.600
 where God is

00:46:20.600 --> 00:46:21.440
 leading his church

00:46:21.440 --> 00:46:22.640
 into the current

00:46:22.640 --> 00:46:23.380
 age.

00:46:24.200 --> 00:46:24.560
 So we're going to

00:46:24.560 --> 00:46:25.060
 go ahead and call

00:46:25.060 --> 00:46:25.920
 the ushers forward,

00:46:26.080 --> 00:46:26.740
 Oregonist, if you

00:46:26.740 --> 00:46:27.480
 would mind playing

00:46:27.480 --> 00:46:28.680
 M68.

00:46:28.860 --> 00:46:29.540
 Let's do it back to him.

00:46:29.540 --> 00:46:32.720
 That was beautiful.

00:46:33.060 --> 00:46:33.820
 Dan, you got a

00:46:33.820 --> 00:46:35.420
 solid head on your

00:46:35.420 --> 00:46:35.660
 shoulders.

00:46:35.760 --> 00:46:36.160
 You're going to do

00:46:36.160 --> 00:46:36.940
 fine in this online

00:46:36.940 --> 00:46:37.680
 ministry thing.

00:46:38.220 --> 00:46:39.100
 Dr. Lowe, you can

00:46:39.100 --> 00:46:40.040
 take full credit, I'm

00:46:40.040 --> 00:46:40.240
 sure.

00:46:41.380 --> 00:46:44.180
 Hey, this is beautiful.

00:46:44.560 --> 00:46:46.120
 I've got ecologies of

00:46:46.120 --> 00:46:48.960
 faith in a digital age

00:46:48.960 --> 00:46:49.800
 open in Amazon.

00:46:50.120 --> 00:46:50.840
 I will click the

00:46:50.840 --> 00:46:52.120
 little Kindle link

00:46:52.120 --> 00:46:52.900
 here in a minute and

00:46:52.900 --> 00:46:53.640
 type in my credit

00:46:53.640 --> 00:46:54.560
 card information.

00:46:54.880 --> 00:46:56.600
 If only to be able to

00:46:56.600 --> 00:46:57.640
 read, maybe I can't

00:46:57.640 --> 00:46:59.420
 attend a Liberty

00:46:59.420 --> 00:47:00.440
 class, but at least I

00:47:00.440 --> 00:47:01.980
 can expound on the

00:47:01.980 --> 00:47:03.200
 digital theological

00:47:03.200 --> 00:47:04.240
 challenges that we

00:47:04.240 --> 00:47:05.600
 have today in book

00:47:05.600 --> 00:47:05.920
 form.

00:47:06.120 --> 00:47:07.560
 So thank you very

00:47:07.560 --> 00:47:08.080
 much for that.

00:47:08.160 --> 00:47:09.240
 Hey, Ray, as we're

00:47:09.240 --> 00:47:10.400
 landing the plane here,

00:47:10.480 --> 00:47:11.140
 any closing thoughts

00:47:11.140 --> 00:47:11.580
 on your side?

00:47:11.960 --> 00:47:13.040
 Yeah, I love this on

00:47:13.040 --> 00:47:13.640
 so many different

00:47:13.640 --> 00:47:13.960
 levels.

00:47:14.160 --> 00:47:15.240
 You know, to Jeff's

00:47:15.240 --> 00:47:16.380
 point, I do wish that

00:47:16.380 --> 00:47:17.260
 there was an aspect of

00:47:17.260 --> 00:47:18.500
 this that existed, you

00:47:18.500 --> 00:47:19.280
 know, even as I was

00:47:19.280 --> 00:47:20.180
 going through seminary

00:47:20.180 --> 00:47:22.020
 because in times past

00:47:22.020 --> 00:47:23.240
 and this is kind of the

00:47:23.240 --> 00:47:23.960
 unfortunate thing, it

00:47:23.960 --> 00:47:24.780
 seemed like the church

00:47:24.780 --> 00:47:26.540
 and was, and even in

00:47:26.540 --> 00:47:27.420
 this case, you know,

00:47:27.640 --> 00:47:28.280
 was a little bit

00:47:28.280 --> 00:47:29.180
 behind in terms of,

00:47:29.280 --> 00:47:29.840
 man, we could have

00:47:29.840 --> 00:47:30.740
 been here already, but

00:47:30.740 --> 00:47:32.000
 sometimes like we get

00:47:32.000 --> 00:47:32.800
 in our own way and

00:47:32.800 --> 00:47:34.040
 thinking, oh man, but

00:47:34.040 --> 00:47:35.140
 but not yet because we

00:47:35.140 --> 00:47:35.960
 want to hold on to our

00:47:35.960 --> 00:47:37.540
 traditions and got to

00:47:37.540 --> 00:47:38.240
 give a lot of credit

00:47:38.240 --> 00:47:39.340
 to you, Dr. Lowe and

00:47:39.340 --> 00:47:40.800
 to you, Dan, for for

00:47:40.800 --> 00:47:41.840
 really just kind of

00:47:41.840 --> 00:47:42.720
 plowing through and

00:47:42.720 --> 00:47:43.420
 saying, no, there

00:47:43.420 --> 00:47:44.120
 there is complete

00:47:44.120 --> 00:47:45.520
 legitimacy to this and

00:47:45.520 --> 00:47:46.780
 this is how we're going

00:47:46.780 --> 00:47:47.540
 to reach the future of

00:47:47.540 --> 00:47:47.900
 the church.

00:47:48.020 --> 00:47:49.000
 And so for those folks

00:47:49.000 --> 00:47:49.940
 out there who are still

00:47:49.940 --> 00:47:51.600
 wondering, well, do I

00:47:51.600 --> 00:47:52.740
 need to build a good

00:47:52.740 --> 00:47:53.580
 base theology?

00:47:53.720 --> 00:47:54.160
 Do I need the

00:47:54.160 --> 00:47:54.580
 education?

00:47:54.680 --> 00:47:55.420
 The answer is yes,

00:47:55.780 --> 00:47:56.780
 you still do.

00:47:57.040 --> 00:47:57.860
 I was talking to

00:47:57.860 --> 00:47:58.320
 somebody today.

00:47:58.400 --> 00:47:59.420
 We got their seminary

00:47:59.420 --> 00:48:01.000
 education recently, but

00:48:01.000 --> 00:48:02.380
 they went through the

00:48:02.380 --> 00:48:03.120
 route of working for a

00:48:03.120 --> 00:48:03.900
 church first and they

00:48:03.900 --> 00:48:04.600
 wish that they had

00:48:04.600 --> 00:48:05.300
 gotten the education

00:48:05.300 --> 00:48:05.780
 first.

00:48:05.900 --> 00:48:07.000
 And so there is still

00:48:07.000 --> 00:48:08.080
 validity with seminary

00:48:08.080 --> 00:48:08.920
 education, with getting

00:48:08.920 --> 00:48:10.340
 that first as a ground

00:48:10.340 --> 00:48:11.760
 basis for why you do

00:48:11.760 --> 00:48:12.480
 what you do.

00:48:12.900 --> 00:48:14.900
 And in this case, understanding

00:48:14.900 --> 00:48:16.160
 why you're doing online

00:48:16.160 --> 00:48:17.080
 church from a spiritual

00:48:17.080 --> 00:48:18.440
 perspective, helping to

00:48:18.440 --> 00:48:19.000
 nurse some of those

00:48:19.000 --> 00:48:20.080
 things, will serve you

00:48:20.080 --> 00:48:20.680
 over the long haul.

00:48:20.780 --> 00:48:21.560
 You can hear it in Dan.

00:48:21.640 --> 00:48:22.480
 You can hear how it's

00:48:22.480 --> 00:48:24.300
 firing up his fuel as

00:48:24.300 --> 00:48:25.720
 to, man, I see God's

00:48:25.720 --> 00:48:26.360
 called me to this.

00:48:26.480 --> 00:48:28.360
 I understand it from a

00:48:28.360 --> 00:48:29.580
 scriptural perspective and

00:48:29.580 --> 00:48:30.960
 now I'm being released to

00:48:30.960 --> 00:48:31.620
 do ministry.

00:48:32.120 --> 00:48:32.920
 There is complete

00:48:32.920 --> 00:48:34.100
 validity to this and so go

00:48:34.100 --> 00:48:34.420
 for it.

00:48:34.880 --> 00:48:35.140
 Awesome.

00:48:35.320 --> 00:48:36.120
 Hey, Ray, I went ahead

00:48:36.120 --> 00:48:36.840
 and bought you a copy

00:48:36.840 --> 00:48:37.120
 too.

00:48:37.220 --> 00:48:37.720
 You're going to get an

00:48:37.720 --> 00:48:38.980
 email from Amazon about

00:48:38.980 --> 00:48:39.280
 that.

00:48:39.780 --> 00:48:40.940
 Amazon saved my credit

00:48:40.940 --> 00:48:41.180
 card.

00:48:41.240 --> 00:48:42.120
 Who knew your two

00:48:42.120 --> 00:48:42.760
 copies are good.

00:48:43.220 --> 00:48:45.540
 Hey, Dan, just as we're

00:48:45.540 --> 00:48:46.460
 wrapping up the plan here

00:48:46.460 --> 00:48:47.400
 briefly, any closing

00:48:47.400 --> 00:48:47.680
 thoughts?

00:48:48.040 --> 00:48:49.160
 To reiterate what I just

00:48:49.160 --> 00:48:50.060
 said, you know, it's one

00:48:50.060 --> 00:48:51.060
 of those things that it's

00:48:51.060 --> 00:48:54.140
 the time to embrace the

00:48:54.140 --> 00:48:54.560
 change.

00:48:54.800 --> 00:48:56.180
 I mean, God's moving in

00:48:56.180 --> 00:48:57.660
 crazy ways within our

00:48:57.660 --> 00:48:58.340
 country alone.

00:48:58.440 --> 00:48:59.340
 I mean, there's so much

00:48:59.340 --> 00:49:01.940
 that's going on that the

00:49:01.940 --> 00:49:03.380
 ground is ripe for

00:49:03.380 --> 00:49:04.300
 getting out there and

00:49:04.300 --> 00:49:05.960
 exploring digital media and

00:49:05.960 --> 00:49:08.120
 digital ministry and how

00:49:08.120 --> 00:49:09.020
 you can use that to reach

00:49:09.020 --> 00:49:09.320
 people.

00:49:09.460 --> 00:49:10.380
 People are looking for an

00:49:10.380 --> 00:49:11.160
 answer and don't

00:49:11.160 --> 00:49:12.040
 miss the opportunity to

00:49:12.040 --> 00:49:12.720
 deliver it to them

00:49:12.720 --> 00:49:13.640
 through their desktop,

00:49:13.780 --> 00:49:14.540
 through their mobile

00:49:14.540 --> 00:49:15.000
 device.

00:49:15.960 --> 00:49:16.860
 Those are all tools.

00:49:16.980 --> 00:49:17.720
 We can't miss that.

00:49:18.280 --> 00:49:18.440
 Amen.

00:49:18.580 --> 00:49:19.460
 And you were very well

00:49:19.460 --> 00:49:20.260
 spoken on the previous

00:49:20.260 --> 00:49:21.640
 one, so well done.

00:49:22.280 --> 00:49:23.800
 Dr. Lowe, wrapping up

00:49:23.800 --> 00:49:25.540
 the plane, what are you

00:49:25.540 --> 00:49:26.620
 thinking about this?

00:49:26.980 --> 00:49:27.720
 Well, I was struck by

00:49:27.720 --> 00:49:28.700
 Dan's comments about

00:49:28.700 --> 00:49:30.180
 comparing what we're

00:49:30.180 --> 00:49:31.460
 going through now to

00:49:31.460 --> 00:49:34.860
 the printing press and

00:49:34.860 --> 00:49:37.300
 its impact on not just

00:49:37.300 --> 00:49:39.000
 world culture, but the

00:49:39.000 --> 00:49:39.540
 church as well.

00:49:39.540 --> 00:49:42.300
 And Martin Luther took

00:49:42.300 --> 00:49:43.160
 advantage of that

00:49:43.160 --> 00:49:43.800
 technology.

00:49:44.000 --> 00:49:44.900
 He understood its

00:49:44.900 --> 00:49:45.480
 potential.

00:49:46.300 --> 00:49:46.980
 And so what we need

00:49:46.980 --> 00:49:48.020
 today, I think, is

00:49:48.020 --> 00:49:49.300
 again, another

00:49:49.300 --> 00:49:53.240
 reformational theological

00:49:53.240 --> 00:49:54.880
 support for the

00:49:54.880 --> 00:49:55.540
 technology.

00:49:56.240 --> 00:49:56.880
 We've got the

00:49:56.880 --> 00:49:57.460
 technology.

00:49:57.740 --> 00:49:59.280
 Now, are we doing our

00:49:59.280 --> 00:50:00.300
 biblical theological

00:50:00.300 --> 00:50:02.500
 piece to go with it

00:50:02.500 --> 00:50:04.580
 and combine it to be

00:50:04.580 --> 00:50:05.920
 able to get the kind of

00:50:05.920 --> 00:50:06.780
 results that Martin

00:50:06.780 --> 00:50:07.980
 Luther got from his

00:50:07.980 --> 00:50:08.960
 ministry back in the

00:50:08.960 --> 00:50:09.760
 1500s?

00:50:09.900 --> 00:50:10.920
 So I think we're on the

00:50:10.920 --> 00:50:12.460
 cusp here, maybe, of a

00:50:12.460 --> 00:50:14.060
 new reformation that's

00:50:14.060 --> 00:50:15.140
 going to broaden out our

00:50:15.140 --> 00:50:15.960
 thinking a little bit

00:50:15.960 --> 00:50:17.800
 more and provide a new

00:50:17.800 --> 00:50:18.740
 open door for the

00:50:18.740 --> 00:50:19.040
 church.

00:50:20.120 --> 00:50:21.480
 We don't need to have

00:50:21.480 --> 00:50:24.100
 95 theses nailed to the

00:50:24.100 --> 00:50:25.120
 Wittenberg church door,

00:50:25.280 --> 00:50:26.480
 but we may need to have

00:50:26.480 --> 00:50:28.280
 them nailed to the

00:50:28.280 --> 00:50:30.040
 internet in some fashion

00:50:30.040 --> 00:50:31.080
 so that we begin to

00:50:31.080 --> 00:50:32.260
 recognize that this is a

00:50:32.260 --> 00:50:33.440
 sacred space, too, that

00:50:33.440 --> 00:50:35.540
 God has created, and we

00:50:35.540 --> 00:50:36.600
 need to use it for his

00:50:36.600 --> 00:50:37.280
 honor and for his

00:50:37.280 --> 00:50:37.580
 glory.

00:50:38.380 --> 00:50:40.200
 Yeah, I've used that

00:50:40.200 --> 00:50:42.220
 analogy with the theses

00:50:42.220 --> 00:50:43.180
 nailed to the door

00:50:43.180 --> 00:50:44.220
 before, and people have

00:50:44.220 --> 00:50:45.080
 looked at me like I was

00:50:45.080 --> 00:50:45.440
 crazy.

00:50:45.880 --> 00:50:47.500
 So the fact that I now

00:50:47.500 --> 00:50:49.500
 have a theologically

00:50:49.500 --> 00:50:51.520
 trained person with

00:50:51.520 --> 00:50:53.000
 doctor in front of him

00:50:53.000 --> 00:50:53.900
 saying the same thing,

00:50:54.000 --> 00:50:55.300
 I have never been

00:50:55.300 --> 00:50:56.200
 happier than I am.

00:50:56.460 --> 00:50:57.300
 Okay, maybe not that

00:50:57.300 --> 00:50:59.040
 much, but it's a very

00:50:59.040 --> 00:50:59.980
 comforting day here.

00:51:00.160 --> 00:51:01.800
 So, gentlemen, Dr.

00:51:01.800 --> 00:51:02.760
 We're less crazy today,

00:51:02.840 --> 00:51:03.040
 Jeff.

00:51:03.400 --> 00:51:05.280
 We are less crazy today.

00:51:05.520 --> 00:51:06.260
 We have, there's

00:51:06.260 --> 00:51:07.460
 credibility here, or at

00:51:07.460 --> 00:51:08.580
 least this guy's as crazy

00:51:08.580 --> 00:51:09.220
 as we are.

00:51:09.480 --> 00:51:10.440
 I don't know which, but

00:51:10.440 --> 00:51:11.480
 it's awesome.

00:51:11.660 --> 00:51:12.720
 Well, gentlemen, thank

00:51:12.720 --> 00:51:14.160
 you very much for jumping

00:51:14.160 --> 00:51:14.800
 on the show.

00:51:14.980 --> 00:51:15.620
 There's a lot of people

00:51:15.620 --> 00:51:16.760
 on the screen here for

00:51:16.760 --> 00:51:17.940
 Ray, for Dr.

00:51:18.020 --> 00:51:18.560
 Lowe, for Dan.

00:51:18.620 --> 00:51:19.700
 By the way, we'll put

00:51:19.700 --> 00:51:21.180
 information on Liberty.

00:51:21.320 --> 00:51:22.120
 We'll get some information

00:51:22.120 --> 00:51:23.660
 from these guys, links in

00:51:23.660 --> 00:51:24.560
 the show notes about how

00:51:24.560 --> 00:51:25.620
 to get connected into the

00:51:25.620 --> 00:51:26.120
 Cognate.

00:51:26.580 --> 00:51:27.920
 Social media or their

00:51:27.920 --> 00:51:29.180
 contact information will be

00:51:29.180 --> 00:51:29.680
 on there as well.

00:51:29.980 --> 00:51:30.740
 We'll include some links

00:51:30.740 --> 00:51:32.980
 to the book here,

00:51:34.200 --> 00:51:36.720
 Ecclesiologies of Faith

00:51:36.720 --> 00:51:38.040
 in the Digital Age.

00:51:38.080 --> 00:51:39.180
 I just invested in two

00:51:39.180 --> 00:51:40.200
 copies, so looking forward

00:51:40.200 --> 00:51:40.680
 to reading that.

00:51:41.480 --> 00:51:42.140
 But we're going to wrap.

00:51:42.320 --> 00:51:44.500
 So, for Ray, for Dr.

00:51:44.560 --> 00:51:45.460
 Lowe, for Dan, this is

00:51:45.460 --> 00:51:46.040
 Jeff at the Church

00:51:46.040 --> 00:51:46.960
 Digital and Stadia

00:51:46.960 --> 00:51:47.500
 Church Planning.

00:51:47.920 --> 00:51:48.800
 Thanks for joining us

00:51:48.800 --> 00:51:50.360
 again here at the podcast,

00:51:50.480 --> 00:51:50.940
 and we'll see you next

00:51:50.940 --> 00:51:51.180
 time.

00:51:51.440 --> 00:51:52.000
 Y'all have a good day.