WEBVTT

00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:05.720
 Episode 111, 111 of the Church Digital Podcast, powered by Stadia Church Planning. Jeff here.

00:00:06.040 --> 00:00:10.220
 Hey, with 111, we're going to experiment with the new format. This is going to be interesting. I like this.

00:00:10.280 --> 00:00:17.800
 We're going to feature something new here on this podcast. Through Stadia, we've got a group of churches that I specifically work with.

00:00:17.800 --> 00:00:25.980
 We call them the Futurist Churches. These are the innovative group, the churches that want to try something different, that are well in the stretch of the limits.

00:00:26.060 --> 00:00:32.420
 Yeah, they're recognizing that their mission and their vision doesn't need to change, but the strategy, it needs to.

00:00:32.520 --> 00:00:38.720
 It needs to adapt. It needs to evolve. We need to do different things to be effective, not only for the future, but honestly, thank you very much, COVID.

00:00:39.100 --> 00:00:41.340
 We need to do something different to be effective today.

00:00:41.340 --> 00:00:47.740
 And so these are the conversations that I get to work with, with the Stadia Futurist Churches.

00:00:47.780 --> 00:00:51.360
 And it's one of these Futurist Churches that I even want to feature today.

00:00:51.680 --> 00:01:04.420
 So the first time that I met a lead pastor, Josh Amstutz, in a Zoom conversation pre-COVID, Josh is lead pastor at Lakeland Church, a church up in Wisconsin.

00:01:04.780 --> 00:01:12.140
 First time I met him, I'll be honest, he told me he wanted to launch a VR campus out of his church.

00:01:12.140 --> 00:01:16.580
 I was kind of taken aback, in shock, maybe speechless for a little while.

00:01:16.980 --> 00:01:21.400
 It was the first time I had a lead pastor not only say, but spell VR.

00:01:21.600 --> 00:01:27.760
 Like I never actually had the experience of a church, DJ Soto aside, actually saying VR.

00:01:28.320 --> 00:01:31.200
 And so I was really intrigued by this, started asking questions.

00:01:31.200 --> 00:01:38.060
 And the more that I really kind of understood Josh, I started to understand his passion to do something in this area.

00:01:38.140 --> 00:01:45.160
 Now, maybe he didn't understand the technical aspects of it, but he was open and he was willing to explore more of it.

00:01:45.220 --> 00:01:57.560
 And so I loved having these conversations with Josh and the team with Lakeland, starting to help them figure out what it looks like to do a virtual reality campus spun off of the physical church.

00:01:57.560 --> 00:02:00.520
 The conversations just continued to grow and started casting ideas.

00:02:00.640 --> 00:02:03.240
 And then I was like, hey, you know what the next step we need to do?

00:02:03.560 --> 00:02:06.240
 We need to get you together with Jason Poling.

00:02:06.400 --> 00:02:11.060
 Now, some of you guys may remember from an earlier podcast, Jason is one of these guys that's done it.

00:02:11.180 --> 00:02:20.340
 He has spun off his smaller church, a physical church, not only broadcasting services digitally, but he's also doing Avatar Church.

00:02:20.440 --> 00:02:22.540
 He's doing virtual reality church.

00:02:22.540 --> 00:02:27.820
 So I've got a guy here, a friend to contact from Cornerstone Church up in the Pacific Northwest.

00:02:28.400 --> 00:02:29.640
 Jason's doing this.

00:02:29.900 --> 00:02:35.020
 Man, let's get these guys together and let them dialogue and learn from each other.

00:02:35.140 --> 00:02:43.600
 Let Josh and the Lakeland team ask questions, drill into some of the insight that Jason has from the experience of it.

00:02:44.440 --> 00:02:58.380
 And the best part of this, as Josh and his team and Jason talked, I actually didn't say very much because there was so much wisdom being passed directly from it that I just got to sit back and not even facilitate,

00:02:58.380 --> 00:03:06.680
 but watch and learn myself as we're hearing from the guy who's actually done it, answering the questions of the people who want to do it.

00:03:06.800 --> 00:03:22.220
 And so it's a phenomenal conversation here involving one of Stadia's futurist churches, getting them connected into this idea of how to be more aggressive with this strategy by doing something new, something that they already wanted to do.

00:03:22.220 --> 00:03:28.020
 So for the conversation, we're bringing in Josh Amstutz and some of the other Lakeland team into the conversation.

00:03:28.020 --> 00:03:33.360
 We're bringing in Jason Poling, lead pastor over at Cornerstone Church up in the Pacific Northwest.

00:03:33.980 --> 00:03:42.560
 Of course, myself, Jeff, with the Church Digital and Stadia Church Planning in a conversation that I'm calling the Futurists and the Virtual Reality Campus.

00:03:43.100 --> 00:03:43.560
 Okay, everybody.

00:03:43.820 --> 00:03:44.220
 Here you go.

00:03:44.560 --> 00:03:53.080
 No, so I was on a big staff in Iowa, and I know how – it's funny because sometimes when you have a big staff, obviously you can do a lot more.

00:03:53.500 --> 00:03:59.540
 But I did find that we ended up talking a lot more than we actually got stuff done because it's harder to get things done when you have such a huge committee.

00:04:00.260 --> 00:04:08.020
 And so I'm at a smaller church now, and so that's probably the only reason why we've gone faster is, you know, it's just me and another pastor.

00:04:08.020 --> 00:04:11.020
 And, you know, we've got a staff pretty much part-time.

00:04:11.140 --> 00:04:19.940
 Everyone's part-time except for me and the other – so anyway, you can get – you probably can, you know, just move forward on some things more quickly.

00:04:20.160 --> 00:04:27.420
 So that's the only reason why we probably got in the game quick is not as many committees to go through.

00:04:27.640 --> 00:04:31.900
 But so I've been in the big church and the small church, so I understand the pros and cons of both.

00:04:31.900 --> 00:04:38.560
 But it's really – getting into the VR ministry, it's really surprisingly simple and cheap.

00:04:38.880 --> 00:04:46.040
 That's the beauty of virtual reality is you can have a whole other – you don't even have to have – imagine that.

00:04:46.100 --> 00:04:48.960
 You don't have to have a building stewardship campaign.

00:04:49.620 --> 00:04:59.040
 You don't have – I mean, you can build another church for almost free and have people start coming instantly and preach the gospel to them and develop community.

00:04:59.040 --> 00:04:59.920
 It's crazy.

00:04:59.920 --> 00:05:05.280
 So, you know, that's why it's neat that, you know, large churches, small churches, in-between churches, everyone can do it.

00:05:05.900 --> 00:05:06.740
 It really isn't hard.

00:05:07.100 --> 00:05:13.100
 I mean, honestly, for me, it was just getting a headset and diving in.

00:05:13.640 --> 00:05:16.000
 Pastor DJ, so you probably – I mean, Jeff's friends with him.

00:05:16.020 --> 00:05:16.560
 You probably know him.

00:05:17.020 --> 00:05:18.520
 So I connected with DJ.

00:05:18.700 --> 00:05:23.100
 I went to his church when I first got my headset, and I was like – you know, I was hooked.

00:05:23.480 --> 00:05:35.900
 And at that point, it's just a matter of learning the platform you want to launch on because there's several different – or probably three or four, like, major platforms that you probably would be interested in launching a church campus.

00:05:36.480 --> 00:05:38.140
 Figure out which one you want to start with.

00:05:39.160 --> 00:05:42.900
 Figure out the – how that works.

00:05:43.080 --> 00:05:51.100
 You know, just like learning a new video game, learning how it works, and then basically just start doing it faithfully.

00:05:51.240 --> 00:05:55.740
 You know, that's the key is launch it and just keep showing up every week.

00:05:56.520 --> 00:05:57.660
 Eventually, word will spread.

00:05:58.020 --> 00:05:58.920
 People start popping in.

00:05:58.940 --> 00:06:02.280
 They'll see the event, and you're there.

00:06:02.380 --> 00:06:21.840
 So I don't want to make it so simple that it sounds ridiculous, but it really – you know, there was a lot of other pieces and details in terms of learning the software and how to upload, you know, our video for worship, how to – you know, how to – you know, crowd management is a little different because, you know, you have to mute people.

00:06:22.040 --> 00:06:25.200
 So how do you do that sensitively because there can be trolls.

00:06:25.380 --> 00:06:28.880
 You're not going to have that as much in an in-real-life church, or maybe you do.

00:06:28.940 --> 00:06:35.620
 I don't know if you get wild-haired prophets, self-proclaimed prophets coming in the middle of your sermons, but that does happen in VR.

00:06:36.140 --> 00:06:37.900
 So you got to mute people sometimes.

00:06:38.700 --> 00:06:40.320
 So just stuff like that.

00:06:40.480 --> 00:06:45.480
 Or if you're really adventurous, maybe you want them to, you know, the wild-haired prophets, interrupt your sermon.

00:06:45.960 --> 00:06:48.780
 Can we break it down maybe into some portions of like – yeah.

00:06:48.780 --> 00:06:56.160
 Let's talk a little – I would love to get your insights on, first off, technology platforms, so the technical side of things.

00:06:56.320 --> 00:06:57.720
 Like what would you recommend?

00:06:58.340 --> 00:06:59.160
 What have you learned?

00:06:59.220 --> 00:06:59.860
 What have you liked?

00:06:59.940 --> 00:07:04.920
 What have you kind of also perhaps explored and you didn't like it for whatever reason?

00:07:05.320 --> 00:07:05.460
 Yeah.

00:07:05.460 --> 00:07:08.160
 So we can kind of like – we can address that as one thing.

00:07:08.540 --> 00:07:13.900
 Then a second thing that I would love for you to address is what have you learned about how to best run a service?

00:07:14.480 --> 00:07:20.940
 Like is there a pared-down version of what you do from Sunday versus in the VR experience?

00:07:21.400 --> 00:07:33.020
 And then the third thing that I would love for you to touch on would be what's the staffing time commitment and people necessary to make this thing happen for the long haul?

00:07:33.380 --> 00:07:34.280
 So does that make sense?

00:07:34.380 --> 00:07:36.480
 I just broke – I just created our agenda.

00:07:36.960 --> 00:07:37.700
 That was awesome, man.

00:07:38.000 --> 00:07:38.460
 You're good.

00:07:38.520 --> 00:07:39.320
 Yeah, I appreciate that, Josh.

00:07:39.320 --> 00:07:41.120
 So first one, technology.

00:07:41.380 --> 00:07:47.140
 So you've got to determine – although I didn't even think through this because I didn't know what – I didn't really know what I was doing.

00:07:47.280 --> 00:07:47.720
 I'll be honest.

00:07:47.760 --> 00:07:48.500
 I just jumped in.

00:07:48.640 --> 00:07:49.820
 So now I know a little bit more.

00:07:49.900 --> 00:07:57.140
 I can help you guys perhaps in determining where you – like what target audience perhaps that you want to reach.

00:07:57.640 --> 00:08:00.260
 I just jumped into Altspace because I knew DJ was there.

00:08:00.300 --> 00:08:04.660
 And I was like, well, maybe I can do it there because he's doing it really is what I did.

00:08:04.660 --> 00:08:10.560
 But there are multiple other platforms I wasn't even aware of at the time that all have their distinctive pros and cons.

00:08:10.880 --> 00:08:18.720
 So, you know, Altspace is probably the most tame in terms of – and maybe the easiest perhaps to get into.

00:08:19.980 --> 00:08:23.580
 And so I do recommend Altspace because, you know, it's kind of a nice entry point.

00:08:23.660 --> 00:08:25.040
 Maybe you branch out from there.

00:08:25.100 --> 00:08:27.420
 We're thinking about branching out to some other platforms.

00:08:28.100 --> 00:08:32.220
 But it is – I've found probably a little bit older crowd.

00:08:33.040 --> 00:08:35.580
 But, of course, everyone there is pretty tech savvy.

00:08:35.720 --> 00:08:39.320
 So it's an older crowd with a lot of techy kind of qualities about them.

00:08:40.340 --> 00:08:45.480
 Because VR is still pretty – it's taking shape and capturing the culture.

00:08:45.580 --> 00:08:48.680
 But it's still a small segment of the population.

00:08:49.400 --> 00:08:50.320
 But it will grow.

00:08:50.400 --> 00:08:51.120
 I really believe that.

00:08:52.120 --> 00:09:01.780
 So you're going to see – there are some young people in Altspace, but you're probably looking in, you know – although, I mean, we just baptized – actually, we just baptized Sunday two new believers.

00:09:01.960 --> 00:09:02.840
 And they're both in their 20s.

00:09:02.840 --> 00:09:03.560
 So there's 20s.

00:09:03.720 --> 00:09:05.560
 But then we also see people in the 50s and 60s.

00:09:05.580 --> 00:09:06.780
 You see all the gamut.

00:09:06.880 --> 00:09:09.740
 So that's kind of cool in terms of a diversity audience.

00:09:10.040 --> 00:09:16.360
 But if you go into a place like VRChat, that's going to be mostly your millennials, Gen Zers.

00:09:16.760 --> 00:09:18.640
 And it's a little bit more Wild West.

00:09:18.760 --> 00:09:30.660
 It's a little – you really want to have people that are okay with just getting hammered by trolls and people that there is no respect whatsoever for church at all.

00:09:30.740 --> 00:09:31.740
 They're just going to come at you.

00:09:31.740 --> 00:09:34.280
 But the mission field is super ripe there.

00:09:34.700 --> 00:09:40.920
 In fact, one of my good friends, Pastor Brock in Michigan, he goes on there regularly and does evangelism, just goes into pubs.

00:09:41.480 --> 00:09:44.680
 And it's amazing the hunger that these folks have for the gospel.

00:09:45.300 --> 00:09:46.540
 But they're hardcore.

00:09:46.800 --> 00:09:50.120
 I mean, they will – you've got to send in your Pauls.

00:09:50.160 --> 00:09:52.980
 You don't want to send in your – maybe Barnabas isn't ready for this.

00:09:53.460 --> 00:09:54.060
 Or Timothy.

00:09:54.180 --> 00:09:54.380
 Timothy.

00:09:54.400 --> 00:09:56.580
 Don't send Timothy into VRChat yet.

00:09:57.360 --> 00:10:01.840
 And it's harder to start a church there because the platform is just a little bit more wonky.

00:10:02.440 --> 00:10:05.580
 You just need a little bit more skill in developing worlds.

00:10:06.060 --> 00:10:07.540
 So there's some labor there.

00:10:08.240 --> 00:10:10.160
 Rec Room is kind of the dark horse.

00:10:10.720 --> 00:10:14.940
 DJ and I were talking about how we think that's going to really become maybe the dominant player.

00:10:14.940 --> 00:10:22.220
 Because they're investing a lot more resources in Rec Room as a group than the other platforms, seems like.

00:10:22.840 --> 00:10:23.760
 And they're – because they're everywhere.

00:10:23.920 --> 00:10:28.180
 I mean, you can get them on the Sony PlayStation VR.

00:10:28.700 --> 00:10:30.820
 You can get them on all the headsets.

00:10:31.000 --> 00:10:35.660
 You can get them on your 2D, PC, Mac, as well as your phones now.

00:10:35.720 --> 00:10:36.740
 I think you can do it on your mobile.

00:10:37.220 --> 00:10:38.660
 So they're just going all in.

00:10:39.400 --> 00:10:46.980
 And it's actually – if you're really – maybe you've got some – your youth pastor wants to be involved because it's a younger crowd.

00:10:47.240 --> 00:10:50.960
 I mean, you've really got a lot of middle schoolers, teenagers.

00:10:51.340 --> 00:10:55.260
 I mean, there's other people that are older, but that's kind of the sweet spot for Rec Room.

00:10:55.640 --> 00:10:58.300
 So you really can reach the young people quick.

00:10:59.300 --> 00:11:00.680
 And it's a little more tame.

00:11:01.220 --> 00:11:08.360
 VR Chat, again, why it's Wild West is people can be as scantily clad as they desire to be with their avatars.

00:11:08.600 --> 00:11:11.240
 So you might be preaching a sermon, and who knows?

00:11:11.500 --> 00:11:14.640
 Who knows what's going to walk in on the service and distract everyone?

00:11:15.520 --> 00:11:19.400
 I know it's a cartoon, but still, it can be weird there.

00:11:20.120 --> 00:11:23.780
 All space in Rec Room, you're not going to have that kind of craziness.

00:11:24.780 --> 00:11:31.060
 So those are the main – there's another one called Sansar, which – or Sansar, which none of us use.

00:11:31.440 --> 00:11:32.480
 I've jumped in.

00:11:32.880 --> 00:11:34.080
 It's pretty well developed.

00:11:34.780 --> 00:11:39.760
 They come from the developer that did Second Life back in, you know, what, 15, 20 years ago.

00:11:40.080 --> 00:11:43.020
 They're doing that as their VR platform.

00:11:44.300 --> 00:11:52.120
 That's an open – I mean, if you're looking for a place where there's probably no church – I don't know, Jeff.

00:11:52.180 --> 00:11:56.280
 I don't know how much you've looked, Jeffrey, into the – I don't think there's anybody there.

00:11:57.300 --> 00:12:01.860
 So that's a place where there's nothing, a wide-open mission field.

00:12:02.820 --> 00:12:04.420
 But I don't know much about Sansar.

00:12:04.880 --> 00:12:08.660
 So the three biggies are VR Chat, Altspace, and Rec Room.

00:12:08.660 --> 00:12:14.880
 And you're going to reach – it's kind of like Altspace is the Facebook of VR, VR Chats, probably like the Snapchat.

00:12:15.700 --> 00:12:20.140
 And I don't know, maybe – or TikTok and maybe Rec Room is the Snapchat.

00:12:20.200 --> 00:12:20.580
 I don't know.

00:12:20.940 --> 00:12:22.560
 You can tell the difference, like the crowd.

00:12:22.660 --> 00:12:25.100
 The Facebook crowd, your grandma might be on there.

00:12:26.280 --> 00:12:28.880
 But she's not going to be on Snapchat or TikTok, probably.

00:12:29.280 --> 00:12:31.120
 So it depends on who you want to reach.

00:12:31.640 --> 00:12:38.480
 So technology, though, you know, getting stuff – your video uploaded to each platform.

00:12:38.600 --> 00:12:43.600
 It's hard to really go into detail there because each platform has its own mechanisms by which you upload that stuff.

00:12:44.240 --> 00:12:46.960
 And if you get into it, we'd be happy to – I've got a director of operations.

00:12:47.080 --> 00:12:52.640
 She's just amazing, does a great job, and she knows all of that, the ins and outs of that.

00:12:52.740 --> 00:12:56.400
 So if you get started, we can talk again and say, here's how you upload a video.

00:12:56.620 --> 00:12:59.380
 Here's how you put your sermon notes.

00:12:59.520 --> 00:13:01.960
 You can put them up there where nobody sees them, but you can see them.

00:13:03.620 --> 00:13:10.760
 There's all kinds of little details like that that each platform is going to have their own, you know, way to do it.

00:13:11.000 --> 00:13:12.420
 So I'm trying to think of that answers.

00:13:12.720 --> 00:13:13.900
 Any other tech questions, though?

00:13:13.940 --> 00:13:14.460
 I'm trying to think.

00:13:14.500 --> 00:13:16.640
 Those are the platforms, but I didn't really answer your tech.

00:13:17.400 --> 00:13:20.340
 What else did you ask her, Josh, about technology and how to get started?

00:13:20.340 --> 00:13:25.120
 I think that's actually really helpful to just – and so then with that, though, obviously, once you pick your platform,

00:13:25.380 --> 00:13:34.220
 then you're just going to have to be, you know, obviously, develop your world or develop your church through, you know, that's ideal for that platform.

00:13:34.700 --> 00:13:38.960
 And also, yeah, and Altspace is going to have some standard rooms that you can use.

00:13:39.300 --> 00:13:47.000
 So right now, we're developing a world, but we've been using for seven months just the standard room, one of the standard rooms, and it works fine.

00:13:47.660 --> 00:13:51.180
 VR chat, I think that you have to build your own world.

00:13:51.820 --> 00:13:55.720
 So that's the labor there of somebody that knows how to do the design.

00:13:55.920 --> 00:14:01.960
 And you really have to know Unity, which is a type of – or there's another one that they use, Unreal Engine, I think.

00:14:02.320 --> 00:14:06.480
 But I think Unity is the one that they use to develop games, and you'd have to have somebody that knows how to do that.

00:14:07.680 --> 00:14:09.380
 Rec Room is very simple.

00:14:10.380 --> 00:14:18.580
 Again, they put so much kind of WYSIWYG type stuff in there that you could probably in a few hours develop a church room for yourself.

00:14:19.240 --> 00:14:21.320
 So Rec Room is pretty cool in that way.

00:14:21.820 --> 00:14:23.900
 But Altspace, they have standard templates.

00:14:24.180 --> 00:14:31.560
 Also, in terms of events, Altspace is going to be more clear to the general population who gets on what's happening when.

00:14:33.860 --> 00:14:35.980
 VR chat is a little unclear.

00:14:37.300 --> 00:14:42.780
 It advertises and highlights worlds when you come in, but I don't recall it really showing events.

00:14:43.340 --> 00:14:48.200
 So you have to develop your following, right?

00:14:48.200 --> 00:14:51.300
 You have to go in there and start meeting people and connecting and friending.

00:14:51.360 --> 00:14:52.280
 That's what Brock does.

00:14:52.400 --> 00:14:55.740
 And then he has a church service because he knows all these people who he's friended.

00:14:56.780 --> 00:14:59.300
 And then Rec Room, I think, is the same way.

00:14:59.440 --> 00:15:00.800
 But you can do it.

00:15:00.880 --> 00:15:04.000
 I mean, again, the mission field is ripe.

00:15:04.440 --> 00:15:05.800
 So that's not even an obstacle to me.

00:15:05.860 --> 00:15:09.080
 Don't view that as, oh, my gosh, we're not going to have our event highlighted.

00:15:09.240 --> 00:15:13.180
 No, if you go into a pub and you start talking to people, they'll friend you.

00:15:13.320 --> 00:15:15.020
 And before you know it, you've got a congregation.

00:15:15.740 --> 00:15:18.120
 So that's not a worry there.

00:15:18.460 --> 00:15:20.760
 So the second question, let's see if I can remember.

00:15:21.240 --> 00:15:23.260
 Technology and then what was the second question, Josh?

00:15:23.260 --> 00:15:23.880
 You got it written down.

00:15:24.260 --> 00:15:24.800
 Yeah, sir.

00:15:24.880 --> 00:15:25.500
 I wrote it down.

00:15:25.640 --> 00:15:26.960
 Service kind of set up.

00:15:27.080 --> 00:15:31.360
 What is the – how would you design a service or church differently in that setting?

00:15:31.900 --> 00:15:37.900
 Yeah, so I – to keep things simple because we are, you know, in terms of resources, I mean, we're a smaller church.

00:15:38.760 --> 00:15:41.980
 I was like, man, I just got to replicate what I'm doing already.

00:15:42.180 --> 00:15:44.280
 I don't want to write another sermon, do it differently.

00:15:44.780 --> 00:15:47.380
 We already got our worship team and we've got that video.

00:15:47.620 --> 00:15:50.460
 Let's just keep it real streamlined.

00:15:51.460 --> 00:15:52.980
 And other people do it differently.

00:15:54.980 --> 00:15:56.400
 DJ's only on VR.

00:15:57.060 --> 00:16:00.660
 I think Brock – I don't know what he does if he changes his sermon at all.

00:16:01.420 --> 00:16:08.420
 Actually, Brock has more of a conversational apologetic, so I think he does a different sermon for his church in Michigan.

00:16:09.380 --> 00:16:12.720
 But for me, I basically – same sermon.

00:16:13.160 --> 00:16:13.860
 How long is it?

00:16:14.060 --> 00:16:16.260
 My sermons are probably too long.

00:16:17.780 --> 00:16:20.980
 Like yesterday, it was 45 minutes, 45 to 50.

00:16:21.500 --> 00:16:22.940
 I probably shoot 45.

00:16:23.380 --> 00:16:24.180
 And here's the thing.

00:16:24.180 --> 00:16:31.380
 I thought, you know, this – I was like, man, I probably – before I got into VR, I was like, man, I probably should cut that back because these are gamers.

00:16:31.680 --> 00:16:32.880
 They don't want to sit there and listen.

00:16:34.000 --> 00:16:36.640
 And I just – I don't know which one of you preach.

00:16:36.680 --> 00:16:37.320
 Maybe all of you do.

00:16:37.420 --> 00:16:39.020
 But it's like a lot of work.

00:16:39.060 --> 00:16:42.120
 Once you write the thing, you're like, it's so much work to go back and cut it.

00:16:42.220 --> 00:16:43.260
 You're just like, forget it.

00:16:43.440 --> 00:16:44.160
 I'm going to bed.

00:16:44.800 --> 00:16:48.880
 So I decided I'm just going to preach what I do because it would be easier on my schedule.

00:16:49.800 --> 00:16:51.000
 And I'm shocked.

00:16:51.100 --> 00:16:53.440
 People, they're hungry for truth.

00:16:53.900 --> 00:16:59.380
 They'll sit there and listen for 45 minutes straight on mute and just – it's amazing.

00:16:59.560 --> 00:17:03.080
 And they really are – it just shows you that they're ready to hear the gospel.

00:17:04.700 --> 00:17:08.200
 So I wouldn't worry about that at all.

00:17:08.480 --> 00:17:09.900
 I mean, if your sermons are short, great.

00:17:09.980 --> 00:17:10.420
 Keep them that way.

00:17:10.440 --> 00:17:11.100
 Just do what you do.

00:17:11.380 --> 00:17:16.780
 With your worship, do you do a full – I mean, you play your full worship set and people sing along?

00:17:17.140 --> 00:17:19.280
 No, we only – the worship is the hardest part.

00:17:19.780 --> 00:17:24.660
 That's the one change that you're going to have for the most part because you can do everything else.

00:17:24.660 --> 00:17:28.320
 You can have a welcome team, welcome as they spawn into the facility.

00:17:28.620 --> 00:17:29.700
 Hey, good to have you here.

00:17:30.040 --> 00:17:31.300
 And you can have all this stuff.

00:17:31.640 --> 00:17:37.860
 You can basically just take everything you do, IRL, in real life and pretty much do the same thing in VR.

00:17:38.440 --> 00:17:41.680
 The only difference is your sacraments.

00:17:42.200 --> 00:17:44.120
 And I don't know what – what's your tradition?

00:17:44.220 --> 00:17:45.760
 Are you guys non-denom or what are you?

00:17:46.560 --> 00:17:51.640
 So I don't know what your views are on communion and baptism, but we're more Zwinglian, you know, symbolic.

00:17:52.200 --> 00:17:53.980
 So for us, it's easy.

00:17:54.280 --> 00:17:55.640
 Like if my – you know.

00:17:55.760 --> 00:18:00.780
 So Brock, he's a Lutheran, and so he's like, I can't do baptism or communion.

00:18:00.960 --> 00:18:02.180
 So it's just different on your tradition.

00:18:02.540 --> 00:18:07.340
 So for me, I can replicate all that in the VR except for the one thing is worship.

00:18:08.100 --> 00:18:15.860
 That is because the lag time – we actually one time opened up everybody's mic to sing, and it was like that old – I'm old.

00:18:16.000 --> 00:18:16.720
 I don't know how old you are.

00:18:17.020 --> 00:18:22.620
 The Saturday Night Live skit where you had Frankenstein and, you know, the guys singing Christmas carols.

00:18:22.640 --> 00:18:23.000
 Remember that?

00:18:23.100 --> 00:18:23.600
 Anybody remember that?

00:18:23.900 --> 00:18:24.240
 Love it?

00:18:24.320 --> 00:18:25.220
 And no?

00:18:25.380 --> 00:18:25.720
 Yeah.

00:18:26.000 --> 00:18:28.080
 It just sounded so bad.

00:18:28.560 --> 00:18:32.140
 Like only God in his grace could appreciate that worship.

00:18:32.340 --> 00:18:34.060
 It was so bad.

00:18:34.180 --> 00:18:36.160
 So we just, you know, mute it.

00:18:36.220 --> 00:18:38.360
 So you can't have corporate worship in that way.

00:18:38.360 --> 00:18:53.960
 So you have to mute it, and then you got to show a video because you could have – we're working on getting our worship director get in there live, and he's done it a couple times, but there's some setup with software and et cetera where he can go in there and actually play.

00:18:54.680 --> 00:18:59.720
 They have, you know, they have like talent open mic nights in all space, and it sounds really good.

00:18:59.720 --> 00:19:02.340
 So you can have a live worship set if you want.

00:19:02.920 --> 00:19:06.220
 You can have just a video of a downloaded worship.

00:19:06.420 --> 00:19:08.440
 You can get Elevation worship on your screen, whatever.

00:19:08.640 --> 00:19:11.940
 Or if you want to do your own, we do our own worship and put it up there.

00:19:12.900 --> 00:19:19.800
 But we just do one song because, you know, it seems odd since nobody's singing to go too long with the worship.

00:19:20.660 --> 00:19:24.220
 But that's the thing I wish we could – that's the one thing I do miss.

00:19:24.960 --> 00:19:26.880
 But we tell them, hey, go ahead and sing your heart out.

00:19:27.220 --> 00:19:27.780
 You're on mute.

00:19:28.220 --> 00:19:28.940
 God loves it.

00:19:30.320 --> 00:19:32.600
 So that's the only change that I do.

00:19:32.720 --> 00:19:36.300
 Everything else is exactly almost the same as I do in real life.

00:19:36.440 --> 00:19:37.200
 Does that help at all?

00:19:37.620 --> 00:19:38.360
 Yeah, it is.

00:19:38.380 --> 00:19:39.080
 That's really helpful.

00:19:39.260 --> 00:19:44.540
 When you finish a service, do you – I mean, do you have a prayer team there?

00:19:44.640 --> 00:19:49.800
 Do you, like, walk down off the stage and say, I'll be down front and I'll be – I'd love to meet with you?

00:19:50.380 --> 00:19:56.780
 So I do – I always do a Q&A at the end, which, again, is striking because they stay for an hour, over an hour in there.

00:19:57.200 --> 00:19:58.880
 And then they stay for – it's like another hour.

00:19:59.000 --> 00:20:00.320
 They'll end up being there asking questions.

00:20:01.080 --> 00:20:02.900
 And, you know, we have a small church.

00:20:02.960 --> 00:20:05.660
 I mean, it's probably like 25 to 35 any given Sunday.

00:20:07.120 --> 00:20:10.200
 But they're staying there and they're asking – so we have Q&A.

00:20:10.620 --> 00:20:12.020
 And they ask me all kinds.

00:20:12.080 --> 00:20:13.980
 You can imagine the gamut of questions.

00:20:14.240 --> 00:20:16.360
 Sometimes, you know, you wonder if they're trolling.

00:20:16.520 --> 00:20:17.700
 But most of them are pretty sincere.

00:20:19.100 --> 00:20:20.140
 So we do that.

00:20:20.280 --> 00:20:25.420
 And then we go to a prayer world that one of our members has designed.

00:20:25.540 --> 00:20:28.440
 And they go and pray or fellowship or what have you.

00:20:28.600 --> 00:20:30.260
 See, you can – sky's the limit, man.

00:20:30.280 --> 00:20:33.540
 You can go play VR paintball after church if you want.

00:20:33.540 --> 00:20:37.840
 You can go to a, you know, VR restaurant and act like you're eating.

00:20:37.960 --> 00:20:38.220
 I don't know.

00:20:38.480 --> 00:20:41.240
 So breaking bread together.

00:20:41.560 --> 00:20:42.800
 Yeah, you can do whatever you want there.

00:20:42.860 --> 00:20:44.400
 But we do Q&A for a while.

00:20:45.420 --> 00:20:48.880
 And, again, this is a very unreached people group.

00:20:49.760 --> 00:20:54.640
 They're either mostly never been to church or de-churched.

00:20:54.680 --> 00:21:08.020
 Like we've got a bunch of people that have had bad exposure to church and have been so wounded at an early age that they – decades, you know, they're just barely putting their feet in the water with VR church, right?

00:21:08.040 --> 00:21:13.160
 Because they're like, okay, this is – you know, if they are a cult, I can get out of here quick, you know?

00:21:14.160 --> 00:21:18.020
 So you get a lot of people that have a lot of questions.

00:21:19.540 --> 00:21:21.900
 So the Q&A time is pretty special to me.

00:21:23.400 --> 00:21:25.780
 That's kind of how you do your setup, your service.

00:21:25.780 --> 00:21:26.020
 Yeah.

00:21:26.020 --> 00:21:26.480
 I love that.

00:21:27.140 --> 00:21:28.160
 All right, last one.

00:21:28.500 --> 00:21:30.940
 So probably we'll spend maybe the most time here.

00:21:31.140 --> 00:21:35.620
 But what's the – like before you launch it, what's your time commitment?

00:21:35.620 --> 00:21:40.020
 Well, like really at the end of the day, how many people are in this thing?

00:21:40.220 --> 00:21:44.300
 How often do you need to be back in this thing, following up with people, connecting with this?

00:21:44.740 --> 00:21:49.560
 And then I even want to get into are there like ideal personalities?

00:21:50.300 --> 00:21:54.260
 So I know you're preaching this thing.

00:21:55.640 --> 00:22:03.100
 Does it – would you – would it be better to have a VR campus pastor in your – I don't know.

00:22:03.100 --> 00:22:04.380
 Just those type of things.

00:22:04.520 --> 00:22:10.240
 And an apologist or an evangelist versus like someone who likes to debate?

00:22:10.960 --> 00:22:16.380
 So the last question, I mean, that's – you know, I think there's so many obviously gifts that the church needs.

00:22:16.500 --> 00:22:17.300
 So I mean maybe all of them.

00:22:17.400 --> 00:22:22.600
 If you can – if you have them, if you have the resources, they may do different – maybe the preacher isn't one of those.

00:22:22.700 --> 00:22:24.660
 Maybe he's – or maybe he's just one of those gifts.

00:22:25.340 --> 00:22:32.180
 I mean because the thing is like if you see the different guys that are involved in VR ministry right now – and by the way, we've got a VR ministry network.

00:22:32.340 --> 00:22:41.020
 If you guys are interested in joining on Discord, Pastor DJ, Pastor Brock, myself, Pastor Benek, I think he – he doesn't really come that much, but he's down in Florida.

00:22:41.680 --> 00:22:48.440
 And then Jay Earhart, who does a – sort of an online Twitch Discord gaming church.

00:22:49.460 --> 00:22:50.960
 And they're all – so everybody's different.

00:22:51.580 --> 00:22:55.120
 So I'm kind of like – you know, I went to Southern Seminary.

00:22:55.600 --> 00:22:57.640
 I'm, you know, Baptist growing up.

00:22:57.700 --> 00:22:58.760
 I'm EFCA now.

00:22:58.860 --> 00:23:02.480
 But I'm pretty – you know, I'm pretty traditional, believe it or not, even though I'm in VR.

00:23:03.160 --> 00:23:04.840
 Just the way I was trained, the way I grew up.

00:23:05.040 --> 00:23:07.260
 So I'm pretty much just a standard preacher.

00:23:07.440 --> 00:23:08.460
 You know, I just do the message.

00:23:08.840 --> 00:23:14.680
 DJ is probably more of a conversational, just kind of walking through the text style.

00:23:15.740 --> 00:23:17.180
 Brock is like an apologist.

00:23:17.440 --> 00:23:18.220
 So – and that works well.

00:23:18.220 --> 00:23:20.520
 So – and then Jay is really relational.

00:23:21.020 --> 00:23:22.700
 Just a relational guy.

00:23:22.960 --> 00:23:23.880
 A very caring guy.

00:23:24.400 --> 00:23:26.560
 So you've got the gamut of guys that are doing it.

00:23:26.600 --> 00:23:28.460
 And each one of us are having a lot of fruit.

00:23:28.920 --> 00:23:34.180
 So honestly, I would – you know, you put the word out and say who's interested.

00:23:35.540 --> 00:23:38.940
 See who pipes up from the volunteer resources that you have.

00:23:39.020 --> 00:23:39.660
 And, of course, your staff.

00:23:39.740 --> 00:23:40.540
 You'd figure that out as well.

00:23:41.280 --> 00:23:43.040
 And just roll with that.

00:23:43.180 --> 00:23:44.300
 And God's going to use each one.

00:23:44.300 --> 00:23:48.380
 So we've got – from our In Real Life Church, my director of operations comes.

00:23:49.380 --> 00:23:51.180
 A couple of the teens kind of got us started.

00:23:52.100 --> 00:23:54.480
 They're kind of – they're a little flaky, so they're kind of in and out.

00:23:54.700 --> 00:23:55.760
 But they got us started.

00:23:56.540 --> 00:24:01.100
 And then we got a guy who's in his 60s who does some teaching small group.

00:24:01.260 --> 00:24:02.440
 We have a small group on Wednesday night.

00:24:03.040 --> 00:24:06.160
 He's going to lead an experiencing God thing because that meant a lot to him years ago.

00:24:07.440 --> 00:24:09.660
 And then – I'm trying to think of who else.

00:24:09.720 --> 00:24:12.820
 But anyway, we got this gamut of – oh, we got another guy who's in the Air Force.

00:24:13.600 --> 00:24:15.480
 He's in his late 20s, and he helps out.

00:24:15.480 --> 00:24:22.720
 And as far as personality there, the older guy, he's a little more extroverted and teaching-oriented.

00:24:23.340 --> 00:24:28.040
 But the rest of them are kind of a little bit more introverted, which is great.

00:24:28.960 --> 00:24:33.500
 You got to consider why are people on VR ministry, VR church, instead of going to a church.

00:24:33.580 --> 00:24:37.000
 Well, either they've been wounded or some of them are unable to leave their homes.

00:24:37.060 --> 00:24:38.440
 They have some disabilities, what have you.

00:24:38.640 --> 00:24:39.860
 Some of them are socially anxious.

00:24:39.940 --> 00:24:44.580
 There's a lot of social anxiety and social awkwardness that – not everybody.

00:24:44.580 --> 00:24:49.760
 But, you know, they just – going to a church is very terrifying in physical life.

00:24:50.700 --> 00:24:54.380
 And then a lot of them, you know, there's a lot of geeky things going on.

00:24:54.500 --> 00:24:55.080
 I'm a geek.

00:24:55.240 --> 00:25:00.400
 So they will love to talk about VR and the headset and games.

00:25:00.580 --> 00:25:02.280
 You know, you could get on that for a long time.

00:25:02.780 --> 00:25:18.300
 So you don't need the typical, you know, I don't know, all the big-name guys, you know, Stephen Furtick, Judah Smith, you know, cool-looking, you know, just normal, just down-to-earth, maybe even shy.

00:25:18.300 --> 00:25:21.000
 It doesn't matter as long as they're able to have some conversations.

00:25:21.860 --> 00:25:29.020
 So it's really who do you have and just throw them at it, and God's going to weave the relationships.

00:25:29.400 --> 00:25:29.880
 And I've seen that.

00:25:29.960 --> 00:25:32.460
 I've seen different connections and relationships forge.

00:25:34.640 --> 00:25:41.260
 So, yeah, I don't know if that – I wouldn't worry too much about that piece, I guess.

00:25:42.340 --> 00:25:43.540
 Authenticity, that's a big one.

00:25:43.600 --> 00:25:44.340
 We all know that, right?

00:25:44.360 --> 00:25:46.620
 That's a huge – I mean, that's the kind of lingua franca now.

00:25:47.100 --> 00:25:52.480
 But you don't want somebody going in there just being a, you know, the preacher, you know.

00:25:53.020 --> 00:25:57.000
 They really want authentic connections and relationships.

00:25:57.740 --> 00:26:01.300
 So I don't – you know, if I just preach and I head it out, that would be weird.

00:26:01.420 --> 00:26:02.840
 But I stick around and talk to them.

00:26:03.200 --> 00:26:05.500
 I go to the – try to go to the small group as much as I can.

00:26:06.220 --> 00:26:08.860
 And then this leads to the next point, discord.

00:26:09.120 --> 00:26:10.340
 So that's how we stay connected.

00:26:11.060 --> 00:26:13.000
 I don't get on VR that much.

00:26:14.920 --> 00:26:17.760
 You know, some of them are on a lot, but I just don't have time.

00:26:18.440 --> 00:26:23.680
 So I might get on for the two hours on Sunday and then the one hour on Wednesday night.

00:26:24.460 --> 00:26:29.200
 And then occasionally, like this week, I met up with someone who was wanting to talk about the faith and learn more.

00:26:29.460 --> 00:26:31.040
 So I met up with them for an hour.

00:26:31.420 --> 00:26:32.760
 But I rarely get on.

00:26:33.540 --> 00:26:39.180
 So discord for me is like our – where they can throughout the week ask questions and talk and chat.

00:26:39.960 --> 00:26:42.980
 And that's – I like that personally.

00:26:43.400 --> 00:26:44.420
 I can go quick with that.

00:26:44.860 --> 00:26:50.500
 So you want to have a – you probably want to have a discord server or something like that.

00:26:51.420 --> 00:26:52.580
 Are you guys familiar with discord?

00:26:53.400 --> 00:26:53.880
 Mm-hmm.

00:26:54.220 --> 00:26:54.520
 Okay.

00:26:55.180 --> 00:27:02.040
 Yeah, in the millennial 20-something gaming VR world, discord is the platform.

00:27:02.760 --> 00:27:02.960
 Yeah.

00:27:03.140 --> 00:27:05.640
 I know in the church world, it's not.

00:27:06.160 --> 00:27:09.160
 But if you really want to connect with those people, it's on discord.

00:27:09.480 --> 00:27:09.720
 Yeah.

00:27:09.900 --> 00:27:14.880
 That's like the 168-hour, 167-hour-a-week engagement.

00:27:15.160 --> 00:27:15.600
 Yeah.

00:27:16.000 --> 00:27:19.560
 Aside from what you're getting in a couple hours a week in VR.

00:27:20.560 --> 00:27:22.260
 And that's honestly – yeah, Jeff, that's a good point.

00:27:22.260 --> 00:27:29.660
 Yeah, that's what makes VR really amazing or any digital ministry is I feel like I've actually – that's crazy.

00:27:30.180 --> 00:27:39.080
 Not only have I had more gospel conversations in the last six months than I've – sadly that I've had in my entire 13-year ministry.

00:27:39.840 --> 00:27:41.340
 Like just because it's so much.

00:27:41.420 --> 00:27:42.500
 I mean it's just so right.

00:27:42.920 --> 00:27:47.660
 But I've also had some even deeper connections in terms of what they share.

00:27:49.180 --> 00:27:53.160
 Not that I've got really close relationships here in the church and the one in Iowa.

00:27:53.680 --> 00:27:58.760
 But you do in real-life ministry, yeah, it's all Sunday and you do that a few hours.

00:27:58.980 --> 00:28:02.280
 And you don't really – you might go to coffee with some of your kids.

00:28:02.680 --> 00:28:03.220
 You know what I mean?

00:28:03.420 --> 00:28:04.840
 Like it's just different.

00:28:05.000 --> 00:28:08.520
 Like they're just more open and you're dialoguing 167 hours a week.

00:28:08.600 --> 00:28:09.940
 You never know what's going to come up.

00:28:11.220 --> 00:28:18.480
 And it's really fascinating how for all the critique of it being virtual, oh, that's not real.

00:28:19.020 --> 00:28:19.840
 You hear that out there.

00:28:19.980 --> 00:28:22.800
 It's actually more real than in real life.

00:28:22.940 --> 00:28:23.380
 Bizarre.

00:28:25.040 --> 00:28:27.100
 I didn't believe that until I got into it.

00:28:27.120 --> 00:28:28.200
 When you get into it, you'll see what I mean.

00:28:29.800 --> 00:28:32.600
 I don't know if you have any thoughts on that or questions, but yeah.

00:28:33.040 --> 00:28:34.120
 That's really good, man.

00:28:34.180 --> 00:28:41.520
 I just appreciate you being able to break down even like telling us how many hours you spend in there is helpful.

00:28:41.660 --> 00:28:44.800
 Because I was just wondering like do you have to go back every day?

00:28:45.800 --> 00:28:49.080
 Or do people only enter in during your event?

00:28:49.600 --> 00:28:51.460
 For us, yes, because it's just an event.

00:28:51.580 --> 00:28:54.100
 Now, once we create the world, they can come in and enjoy it.

00:28:54.120 --> 00:29:00.480
 In our world, actually, we're creating a lot of cool things like we'll have a prayer area, but we've got a Stations of the Cross.

00:29:00.700 --> 00:29:07.460
 So I'm – you know, I actually – I know that's Catholic and stuff, but I personally think it's very helpful the way – if you do it, you know, a certain way.

00:29:07.460 --> 00:29:11.440
 And so we've got stations, virtual Stations of the Cross for them to have, you know, that experience.

00:29:11.960 --> 00:29:14.040
 A prayer labyrinth, again, I'm getting all weird on you.

00:29:14.800 --> 00:29:15.200
 That's cool.

00:29:15.560 --> 00:29:17.060
 So you can go do that virtually.

00:29:17.780 --> 00:29:18.720
 Campfire, they can hang out.

00:29:18.780 --> 00:29:20.460
 We're going to have our VR Counseling Center.

00:29:20.620 --> 00:29:21.980
 So we do VR biblical counseling.

00:29:22.320 --> 00:29:23.580
 I'm a big biblical counseling guy.

00:29:23.760 --> 00:29:26.300
 Like I'm just – huge part of my life in ministry.

00:29:26.780 --> 00:29:28.860
 And so we're doing that in VR as well.

00:29:28.940 --> 00:29:29.880
 We've got VR counselors.

00:29:30.020 --> 00:29:33.420
 So they'll be able to meet in facilities on the thing.

00:29:33.420 --> 00:29:45.320
 So we're going to create a museum that kind of – call it the Kingdom Museum that kind of – I don't know how much you guys are into biblical theology, kind of seeing the –

00:29:45.320 --> 00:29:48.320
 the timeline of the kingdom in Scripture.

00:29:48.980 --> 00:30:03.840
 So we're going to, like, have these areas where they can go and experience – you know, that's the vision is they go to – they go to the museum, they see the one kingdom era, and they can actually spawn into it and go into a world that deals with, you know, the perfect kingdom, right?

00:30:03.920 --> 00:30:13.520
 When it was first created in paradise, right, Adam and Eve, and they can actually experience that in some fashion and learn a little bit of Scripture and what God's doing in that.

00:30:13.580 --> 00:30:16.460
 And then they go to different other kingdoms, right, fallen kingdom, et cetera.

00:30:17.240 --> 00:30:33.700
 So that's the thing you can do, just sharing all that because in VR, for pretty cheap, you can do a whole lot of cool things that people will want to hang out in and actually learn from because it's so tangible, visual.

00:30:34.820 --> 00:30:38.640
 It's just a different way of – it's every youth pastor's dream, right?

00:30:39.000 --> 00:30:40.540
 It's like, how can I make this clear?

00:30:41.140 --> 00:30:42.160
 So, yeah.

00:30:42.680 --> 00:30:43.180
 Hey, Jason.

00:30:43.700 --> 00:30:47.740
 When you move from an event to the world, how will that change in your staffing?

00:30:48.000 --> 00:30:49.140
 Will that be 24-7?

00:30:49.280 --> 00:30:52.400
 Will you have people in there all the time at different places within your world?

00:30:52.740 --> 00:30:52.980
 No.

00:30:53.080 --> 00:31:04.980
 So the world is just open, and people can go visit as much as they like, and we hope that they'll have some – there'll be places where you can see, hey, if you have any questions or if you'd like to talk, you know, click here, whatever.

00:31:05.300 --> 00:31:10.280
 And just like you do with your website, they'll click there, I need counseling, boom, and then it'll get to your staff.

00:31:10.280 --> 00:31:13.260
 But nobody has to be, like, on the website at that point.

00:31:13.500 --> 00:31:14.400
 Same thing in the world.

00:31:14.960 --> 00:31:16.820
 There will be maybe special times.

00:31:17.200 --> 00:31:21.600
 With, like, counseling, for example, we'll have – scheduled, so they'll meet in there with their counselor.

00:31:22.060 --> 00:31:24.680
 But, no, you don't have – no one has to be in there all the time.

00:31:25.360 --> 00:31:36.760
 I mean, that would be cool, I suppose, if you had, you know, Allspace or Microsoft, who owns Allspace, they'll have somebody staffed in their main world, which is called Campfire World, so they can answer questions.

00:31:36.760 --> 00:31:40.220
 So that would be really legit if – we don't have that resourcing.

00:31:42.320 --> 00:31:43.840
 So that's a great idea, though.

00:31:44.740 --> 00:31:44.980
 Wow.

00:31:45.040 --> 00:31:49.220
 And by the way, the director of operations, Nicole, she puts a lot of – a lot more time in than I do.

00:31:49.280 --> 00:31:53.180
 So there are other hours required of your staff.

00:31:53.920 --> 00:31:57.180
 So, you know, I'm the lucky one that I just go in for a few hours.

00:31:57.260 --> 00:32:02.260
 She goes in there and uploads all the stuff.

00:32:02.460 --> 00:32:06.300
 And so there's – and she's actually learning some design stuff.

00:32:06.900 --> 00:32:09.760
 So there are some more hours that would be devoted to that person.

00:32:09.840 --> 00:32:15.220
 So you really need a key digital coordinator, whatever you want to call that role.

00:32:15.660 --> 00:32:18.400
 Yeah, what do you guess she's putting in?

00:32:18.660 --> 00:32:27.020
 She's probably – you know how staff – the good staff, right, they'll do a lot more volunteer hours on top of their – you know, she's probably putting way more hours than I realize.

00:32:27.600 --> 00:32:31.900
 I'm guessing it's probably got to be – I mean, once you get it down to a science, it gets easier.

00:32:31.900 --> 00:32:40.220
 But she's got to be putting in a few hours every week just to get the stuff in there.

00:32:41.200 --> 00:32:52.720
 And then if she's doing some design stuff, I mean – yeah, once you start getting in – if you have a person that's doing all your design, you know, that's more work, you know.

00:32:52.800 --> 00:33:00.520
 But you can get down to a science and probably five hours a week, you know, you could probably put together a – like DJ, he has an interact for his sermons.

00:33:00.520 --> 00:33:03.160
 They'll start in one building, do the worship and announcements.

00:33:03.420 --> 00:33:05.760
 Then they'll all walk over to an interactive space.

00:33:06.180 --> 00:33:12.940
 And he's got some builders that will every week or every series change it up so it reflects the topic of the series.

00:33:13.260 --> 00:33:13.900
 Yeah, I saw that.

00:33:13.900 --> 00:33:22.240
 So, yeah, that might take – that will take some, you know, five to ten hours probably each series change.

00:33:22.760 --> 00:33:28.080
 It's kind of like your creative arts team that sets up your stage with different backdrops.

00:33:28.080 --> 00:33:37.460
 So – and volunteers, you know, if you find the right – if you've got a good pool of volunteers and some techie people, some young people that might – they might just do it for free, you know.

00:33:37.500 --> 00:33:38.440
 They'll be like, man, I'd love to do that.

00:33:38.860 --> 00:33:48.740
 How much of the world building that you did, how much of it was in-house where you were training volunteers or staff to create that versus contract outside?

00:33:48.740 --> 00:33:51.460
 Because I know DJ's got some contacts.

00:33:51.900 --> 00:33:55.460
 Like, what does that look like or what will that look like for you guys?

00:33:55.960 --> 00:34:03.200
 So, yeah, we did find that it was a little challenging, you know, because it's a specialized thing.

00:34:03.260 --> 00:34:07.180
 There's not that many people that are in VR and doing design.

00:34:07.740 --> 00:34:12.940
 And so we actually had a tough time trying to find even someone to pay to do it.

00:34:14.660 --> 00:34:15.740
 Not that they're not out there.

00:34:15.780 --> 00:34:18.660
 And I didn't maybe look as hard as I should, but – because we were doing fine.

00:34:18.740 --> 00:34:20.320
 We were like, hey, you know, we got this room.

00:34:20.400 --> 00:34:20.840
 It's great.

00:34:21.260 --> 00:34:22.500
 It's not fancy.

00:34:23.640 --> 00:34:29.060
 But once we started wanting to build, we actually, by God's grace, we had a guy who's in our church who does design.

00:34:29.180 --> 00:34:31.240
 He like – he's learning it, but he's pretty good at it.

00:34:31.280 --> 00:34:33.960
 And so he's doing it pro bono for us right now.

00:34:34.160 --> 00:34:39.920
 But at some point, you know, I'd maybe like to either bring him on staff or pay him a little bit because, you know, he's doing work for us.

00:34:40.380 --> 00:34:41.740
 But that just – that was for us.

00:34:41.800 --> 00:34:44.400
 We just happened to have a guy that was in our church.

00:34:44.400 --> 00:34:49.100
 I think DJ maybe had the same thing where he had some guys that were really good designers that came to his church.

00:34:49.700 --> 00:34:52.200
 And then he maybe brought them on staff or I don't know if he pays them.

00:34:52.300 --> 00:34:52.840
 I don't know how that works.

00:34:52.880 --> 00:34:53.420
 You could ask DJ.

00:34:54.080 --> 00:34:59.500
 But it is a little challenging maybe to find somebody at first.

00:35:00.100 --> 00:35:04.060
 But once you start developing contacts, then before you know it, this designer knows these guys.

00:35:04.300 --> 00:35:08.860
 And so – and I've got some connections too that – like VRChat, I got a guy.

00:35:09.480 --> 00:35:12.180
 I don't know, Jeff, do you know the architect by any chance down in El Salvador?

00:35:12.620 --> 00:35:13.400
 A little bit.

00:35:13.400 --> 00:35:14.860
 I've talked with him on Discord.

00:35:15.360 --> 00:35:17.360
 Yes, but he's a really, really gifted designer.

00:35:17.700 --> 00:35:23.560
 If you wanted to do something pretty nice, I can connect you to him.

00:35:24.100 --> 00:35:25.720
 And he's pretty reasonable pricing, so.

00:35:26.020 --> 00:35:29.740
 Jason, when you say designer, what's the backdrop of that?

00:35:29.820 --> 00:35:30.920
 Meaning, where do they come from?

00:35:31.000 --> 00:35:43.320
 Are they people that have been designing in other places, Minecraft, whatever that is, Roblox, stuff like that, or designing from the marketplace?

00:35:43.580 --> 00:35:46.580
 What's their background that leads them into designing worlds for those?

00:35:47.020 --> 00:35:50.400
 You know, some of them just – they learn it, you know, they're just self-taught.

00:35:50.880 --> 00:35:55.840
 Some of them may have some background in, you know, a lot of times game design.

00:35:56.400 --> 00:36:03.640
 So the architect, he's actually developing his own game, a pretty amazing MMO, but he's doing that.

00:36:04.660 --> 00:36:05.180
 I don't know.

00:36:05.280 --> 00:36:08.320
 I think he's got a – I think his degree is in computer science.

00:36:08.720 --> 00:36:09.000
 Okay.

00:36:09.120 --> 00:36:09.520
 Design.

00:36:10.000 --> 00:36:11.640
 So that's a guy who's got some skill.

00:36:12.080 --> 00:36:14.060
 And then there's a bunch of other people that are just kind of learning.

00:36:14.460 --> 00:36:16.980
 Unity is the big platform for design.

00:36:17.380 --> 00:36:20.120
 And then you upload it into Allspace, VRChat, what have you.

00:36:20.200 --> 00:36:23.580
 And so there's a lot of people that are now learning that self-taught.

00:36:23.720 --> 00:36:24.880
 But they can be very good.

00:36:25.640 --> 00:36:29.980
 So the one thing you want to be careful of – this is something to log away.

00:36:30.040 --> 00:36:47.480
 I know I'm giving too many details perhaps, but don't – you don't want your world to be so nice that it gets kind of wonky and it's hard to – what will happen is places like Allspace for sure will not then feature your world because your world's too intense, too heavy on the data.

00:36:47.940 --> 00:36:53.260
 So you want to figure out how to keep it under a certain limit, but yet still be a decent world.

00:36:53.480 --> 00:37:00.340
 So there's some worlds that are really awesome, like unbelievable – a lot of Allspace is cartoonish because it keeps it at a lower level.

00:37:00.760 --> 00:37:03.820
 And it's just a particular art form that they decided to go with.

00:37:04.560 --> 00:37:06.280
 VRChat's more anime art form.

00:37:06.920 --> 00:37:13.460
 But there's still some, like, real – like, the art form that some people in Unity design look real.

00:37:13.680 --> 00:37:15.020
 Like, it actually looks like the world.

00:37:15.140 --> 00:37:18.440
 And you can upload that in Allspace, but that world will never be featured.

00:37:19.040 --> 00:37:20.840
 So it's going to be harder for you to be noticed.

00:37:21.060 --> 00:37:27.040
 And so for churches, yeah, this doesn't make sense to make a really nice world, and then no one knows you're there.

00:37:27.720 --> 00:37:30.720
 So just be careful of that when you get a designer.

00:37:30.860 --> 00:37:35.100
 Because some designers are like, I want to make – I want to paint the Sistine Chapel.

00:37:35.720 --> 00:37:38.580
 And you're like, no, that's not what we want.

00:37:38.780 --> 00:37:43.960
 Now, with your church, like your VR church, you said you got 25, 30 people or whatever.

00:37:44.320 --> 00:37:46.180
 Is it the same, 25, 30 people?

00:37:47.420 --> 00:37:49.440
 Or is it always new?

00:37:50.020 --> 00:37:54.200
 So we have a core – there's probably a core of maybe – I'm trying to think here.

00:37:54.260 --> 00:37:58.240
 Maybe 15 to 20, I would say, are, like, regulars.

00:37:58.540 --> 00:37:59.900
 So they're like the core community.

00:38:00.700 --> 00:38:05.820
 And then you get – and then some Sundays it might just be 20 people at the core.

00:38:06.200 --> 00:38:07.360
 And then sometimes you get 40.

00:38:07.360 --> 00:38:09.920
 And so I – 25 to 35 is kind of that general.

00:38:10.040 --> 00:38:14.620
 But, yeah, there's – there are a lot of new people that come in.

00:38:14.740 --> 00:38:16.020
 And so they stay the whole service.

00:38:16.140 --> 00:38:16.860
 Some don't come back.

00:38:16.940 --> 00:38:18.300
 And then maybe because I preach 45 minutes.

00:38:18.340 --> 00:38:18.700
 I don't know.

00:38:19.080 --> 00:38:26.480
 But some of them, you know, you've got to consider where a lot of these people, they're like never been to church.

00:38:27.480 --> 00:38:32.880
 But so there's – it's a lot of – it's definitely – when I first started, I thought of it more as a street ministry.

00:38:33.220 --> 00:38:36.040
 Like I'm going out on the street and I'm just preaching the gospel.

00:38:36.380 --> 00:38:38.540
 If somebody stops and listens, yes.

00:38:38.680 --> 00:38:40.660
 I was hoping for one person just to come and listen.

00:38:41.540 --> 00:38:55.400
 And because, you know, if you're on the streets of my hometown or probably yours, if I go out on the street corner downtown and preach for 45 minutes and one person stops for five minutes and I'm like, hallelujah, you know, like Jesus is coming, you know.

00:38:55.800 --> 00:38:58.260
 Because no one listens to you on the street.

00:38:58.420 --> 00:39:01.260
 But, man, I went into VR and people just come in.

00:39:01.260 --> 00:39:11.260
 And so, yeah, you're going to get a big portion, not a majority, but you're going to get a portion of people that are just going to come in, hear the gospel one time, and then some of them will come back.

00:39:11.340 --> 00:39:12.460
 It's like Mars Hill, right?

00:39:12.840 --> 00:39:14.500
 A small minority will come back.

00:39:15.020 --> 00:39:21.840
 A few of them might talk – a number of people have – sometimes they'll dabble and come back, but sometimes they'll just say, hey, can I talk to you offline?

00:39:22.400 --> 00:39:25.240
 Usually it's the atheists who are, like, ready to just, you know.

00:39:25.760 --> 00:39:26.540
 But those are fine.

00:39:26.580 --> 00:39:27.260
 I enjoy that.

00:39:27.260 --> 00:39:30.360
 You know, I have an apologetic, nice conversation.

00:39:30.600 --> 00:39:31.600
 So you'll get some of those.

00:39:32.100 --> 00:39:35.920
 And then you'll get probably some in Mars Hill who just think you're a total idiot.

00:39:36.960 --> 00:39:44.300
 Like, this was – for them, this is hilarious that a church is in VR and they're watching and they're going to tell their friends, you know, why they're smoking pie.

00:39:44.400 --> 00:39:47.080
 Like, can you believe, you know, they got this stupid church?

00:39:47.240 --> 00:39:48.360
 So you're going to get a mix.

00:39:49.280 --> 00:39:52.860
 But, yeah, you all – every Sunday – and DJ would probably say the same thing.

00:39:53.100 --> 00:39:58.320
 You're going to have, like, new people that have never heard the gospel that are going to come.

00:39:58.380 --> 00:40:00.000
 It's unlike your in-real-life church.

00:40:00.080 --> 00:40:07.920
 I know you get visitors, but honestly, in real life, a lot of our visitors, they're probably hopping from different churches.

00:40:08.120 --> 00:40:13.460
 They've already – there's very rare where you get, like, just fresh, never churched, right?

00:40:13.520 --> 00:40:15.480
 I mean, you got a bigger church, so you might get more than we do.

00:40:15.920 --> 00:40:19.560
 But in VR, every Sunday, every Sunday.

00:40:20.100 --> 00:40:22.880
 So it's super – you can hear that I'm excited.

00:40:22.920 --> 00:40:24.840
 It's exciting for ministers, right?

00:40:24.880 --> 00:40:26.420
 You're like, this is why I got into this job.

00:40:26.980 --> 00:40:33.860
 I was wondering about how do you preach – this is just kind of a, like, practical question.

00:40:34.640 --> 00:40:36.680
 Do you memorize your whole message?

00:40:37.080 --> 00:40:37.640
 No, no.

00:40:38.180 --> 00:40:43.140
 So how do you preach with VR on and address your notes?

00:40:43.740 --> 00:40:44.540
 So you can do that.

00:40:44.560 --> 00:40:45.380
 You can upload the notes.

00:40:45.980 --> 00:40:49.700
 But all of the first – when we first got into it – and this is why I would love to help you,

00:40:49.760 --> 00:40:53.440
 because if you can avoid the pain that we went through, where I was, like –

00:40:53.440 --> 00:40:55.840
 we were trying to get it uploaded, and it was breaking down.

00:40:56.000 --> 00:40:59.580
 And there's some – when you get in there, you will find that every Sunday –

00:40:59.580 --> 00:41:03.900
 I don't know if it's, like, technological demons or what, but something goes wrong.

00:41:04.200 --> 00:41:07.580
 We've been doing it for seven months, and every Sunday, something different goes wrong.

00:41:07.840 --> 00:41:08.880
 So just get used to that.

00:41:09.160 --> 00:41:11.420
 So at the very beginning, my notes wouldn't show up.

00:41:11.740 --> 00:41:18.140
 So I'm like – I got my manuscript here on my table in my office, and I'm like, you know,

00:41:18.220 --> 00:41:21.780
 for 45 minutes, you know, staring like this at my notes.

00:41:22.520 --> 00:41:24.080
 I want to help you avoid that.

00:41:24.180 --> 00:41:29.400
 So we'll help you get your notes on the screen where you can see them.

00:41:30.060 --> 00:41:36.780
 Jason, I feel like we would put this in the pocket of reaching, that, like, everybody we're going after,

00:41:36.900 --> 00:41:40.580
 maybe everyone that's a part of our volunteer teams in the future, like,

00:41:41.080 --> 00:41:43.840
 that they'd be people that we don't see on the weekend.

00:41:44.380 --> 00:41:45.860
 Is that accurate in your mind?

00:41:45.960 --> 00:41:47.200
 Like, would you confirm that?

00:41:47.260 --> 00:41:52.700
 Like, everyone we're going after, all the teams we're building are probably people we've never met and are outside of our area.

00:41:53.060 --> 00:41:54.140
 Yeah, I mean, definitely.

00:41:54.520 --> 00:42:01.740
 We do have some of our In Real Life folks that come, and I think there was, like, one person in our city who was coming because of COVID,

00:42:01.880 --> 00:42:03.000
 and her church was shut down.

00:42:03.360 --> 00:42:05.920
 So anyway, but that's unusual.

00:42:06.060 --> 00:42:07.680
 Usually it's all over the world, right?

00:42:07.860 --> 00:42:09.060
 All over the country and all over the world.

00:42:09.120 --> 00:42:13.780
 In fact, one of the guys that got saved and got baptized is from Estonia, former Soviet Union.

00:42:14.780 --> 00:42:22.860
 And, you know, and I always like to try to connect them to a local fellowship, and I try to help them find a good church when they're ready.

00:42:22.960 --> 00:42:27.960
 So you've got to consider, again, some of them are de-churched, and they're just traumatized by church.

00:42:28.020 --> 00:42:29.820
 And this is just a rehabilitation period.

00:42:30.380 --> 00:42:36.700
 And some of them live in Estonia, where there just really aren't a lot of gospel, good gospel church options.

00:42:37.240 --> 00:42:40.820
 So this, you know, could be the best option for them to be on VR.

00:42:41.100 --> 00:42:48.060
 So, but, yeah, you're right, to get to a mentality where you – it really is a shift for people.

00:42:48.320 --> 00:42:56.260
 Like, people typically, when they critique VR church or any digital ministry, they did that with livestream until COVID hit, is, oh, that's not real.

00:42:56.360 --> 00:42:58.160
 Like, it's not real fellowship.

00:42:58.320 --> 00:42:59.140
 It's not real accountability.

00:42:59.500 --> 00:43:01.740
 It's not real discipleship.

00:43:02.080 --> 00:43:04.260
 And I have totally seen that to be blunt.

00:43:04.260 --> 00:43:11.160
 Those are just – those are the typical historical church responses anytime there's something new, right?

00:43:11.180 --> 00:43:15.200
 We just get all – you know, our panties in a bundle, and I don't know why we do that.

00:43:15.220 --> 00:43:16.340
 And we start to eat our own, you know.

00:43:16.380 --> 00:43:22.680
 We get critical of the other person who's doing – you know, it's like I just preach in Luke 9, you know, and they're casting out demons in your name.

00:43:23.000 --> 00:43:24.520
 But they're not with us, you know.

00:43:24.580 --> 00:43:25.120
 Stop them.

00:43:25.860 --> 00:43:29.080
 So, it's – it's – it – they're real people.

00:43:29.900 --> 00:43:31.300
 They have real issues.

00:43:31.900 --> 00:43:33.480
 They are really seeking Jesus.

00:43:34.700 --> 00:43:47.120
 They – they, you know, I think – I think it's probably even more – like I said, more of a – it feels more of a real ministry sometimes.

00:43:47.220 --> 00:43:48.440
 Like, you're actually going deeper with them.

00:43:49.140 --> 00:43:50.480
 And some would say, oh, the avatar.

00:43:50.680 --> 00:43:51.440
 You know, they got an avatar.

00:43:51.740 --> 00:43:52.600
 They're not showing their face.

00:43:52.660 --> 00:43:54.920
 They got a different name, screen name.

00:43:55.620 --> 00:43:58.680
 And, you know, that – at first, I thought that was a problem.

00:43:58.860 --> 00:44:01.240
 But the reality is, what is – what's in a name?

00:44:01.300 --> 00:44:01.940
 Like, what is a name?

00:44:02.020 --> 00:44:08.400
 Like, my name, Jason Poling, is just a legal name that, you know, back in the day, I might have been Jason's son of Ron, you know.

00:44:08.400 --> 00:44:11.160
 So, the name's – so, it's your identity.

00:44:11.240 --> 00:44:15.760
 When you're in VR, that name, it's your identity in that community.

00:44:16.080 --> 00:44:22.260
 Like, and you don't want to, like – now, you could be a troll who changes, you know, ads on, whatever, every week.

00:44:22.400 --> 00:44:25.740
 You can't change your name that often, but you could add a new account and come in troll.

00:44:26.040 --> 00:44:29.500
 But once you get a name and you're a sincere seeker, that's your identity.

00:44:30.020 --> 00:44:31.340
 Like, that's how you're known.

00:44:31.540 --> 00:44:33.520
 And you live out that identity.

00:44:33.760 --> 00:44:37.380
 So, to me, that whole idea of, like, well, that's not their real name.

00:44:37.440 --> 00:44:38.480
 They're hiding behind something.

00:44:39.300 --> 00:44:41.560
 I just think those are straw men.

00:44:42.300 --> 00:44:46.020
 You know, these people are real people that are asking real questions and getting really saved.

00:44:46.400 --> 00:44:47.580
 So, and then discipleship.

00:44:47.660 --> 00:44:53.360
 Actually, church discipline, which no one likes to talk about, is sometimes easier to do in VR.

00:44:53.540 --> 00:44:57.300
 Like, on Discord, if somebody's being – you know, we've had – we actually kicked a guy.

00:44:57.780 --> 00:44:59.560
 So, we excommunicated a guy from Discord.

00:45:00.280 --> 00:45:04.960
 Because – and we – I ministered to – I said, hey, bro, you can't be saying that kind of stuff.

00:45:05.140 --> 00:45:06.080
 Like, that's not godly.

00:45:06.160 --> 00:45:10.140
 If you don't be a part of this fellowship, like, you can't say those things to people.

00:45:10.580 --> 00:45:13.840
 So, we gave them warning, warning, almost followed Matthew 18.

00:45:13.940 --> 00:45:17.380
 And, you know, we have elders at our church and pastors that come in and preach and stuff and know the guys.

00:45:17.840 --> 00:45:18.760
 And so, finally, I kicked them.

00:45:19.260 --> 00:45:20.200
 So, there's excommunication.

00:45:20.600 --> 00:45:24.140
 How often, you know, do we actually do real church discipline in real life churches?

00:45:24.260 --> 00:45:25.460
 It's super hard, right?

00:45:26.560 --> 00:45:27.540
 I don't know about you guys.

00:45:27.600 --> 00:45:31.660
 Maybe you guys are like, every week we excommunicate.

00:45:33.220 --> 00:45:35.500
 But, anyway, I know that's a tough discussion.

00:45:35.780 --> 00:45:37.160
 But people talk about discipleship.

00:45:37.220 --> 00:45:41.080
 That's part of discipleship is helping people know that this is how Christians live.

00:45:41.300 --> 00:45:42.580
 We want to help you live that way.

00:45:42.660 --> 00:45:47.340
 But if you're choosing not to and you keep defiling the community, like, you can't do that.

00:45:47.420 --> 00:45:48.660
 And so, there's repercussions.

00:45:49.320 --> 00:45:54.920
 And we'd be happy to – after we – and I'm talking to him now trying to help him see what he was doing because he wants to come back in.

00:45:55.560 --> 00:45:58.000
 So, that's discipleship.

00:45:58.520 --> 00:45:59.020
 Does that make sense?

00:45:59.580 --> 00:46:00.140
 Yeah, that's good.

00:46:00.460 --> 00:46:02.020
 So, yeah, we don't see him.

00:46:02.020 --> 00:46:05.080
 The guy lives in – I think he lives in, like, New Jersey.

00:46:06.780 --> 00:46:08.420
 So, I'll probably never see him.

00:46:08.840 --> 00:46:14.440
 But I'm having real scriptural accountability discussions with this guy.

00:46:14.660 --> 00:46:16.320
 But what a Christian is supposed to be like.

00:46:16.740 --> 00:46:22.820
 What's the impact upon – so, you've got your three hours, you know, that you're in VR.

00:46:23.420 --> 00:46:24.220
 Then you've got Discord.

00:46:24.940 --> 00:46:31.040
 And you're talking about discipling a guy who's in New Jersey who's just being a bonehead and ruining your Discord.

00:46:31.500 --> 00:46:36.660
 You know, so, my wonder – and you said you're on that, like, all, you know, all week long.

00:46:37.060 --> 00:46:44.960
 So, how much of your time doing discipleship happened – how much time is that over a week?

00:46:45.420 --> 00:46:50.040
 So, three hours on VR, but add up all the other time that you're investing in.

00:46:50.400 --> 00:46:51.340
 I don't know.

00:46:51.460 --> 00:46:56.260
 I mean, because – so, there is a personality type that – I mean, that's when you ask about personality types.

00:46:56.780 --> 00:47:03.760
 You probably do need – if someone's going to be doing the Discord – I mean, ideally, it would be great if you had a Discord pastor.

00:47:04.360 --> 00:47:05.760
 Like, that was just their whole job.

00:47:06.060 --> 00:47:06.680
 That would be great.

00:47:08.420 --> 00:47:10.340
 But for us, we're not there yet.

00:47:10.980 --> 00:47:15.500
 So, you have to have a personality that can multitask quickly.

00:47:16.300 --> 00:47:20.720
 Like, by God's grace, I'm just – I mean, you can see it's not just the caffeine.

00:47:20.820 --> 00:47:22.360
 I'm just a really hyper guy.

00:47:22.540 --> 00:47:25.040
 And so, I just – I'm quick.

00:47:25.440 --> 00:47:28.180
 I type really, really, really crazy fast.

00:47:28.260 --> 00:47:33.200
 I don't know – I took a class in high school back when they taught it on the typewriters, and I just got really good at it.

00:47:33.400 --> 00:47:36.780
 So, I can move quickly, respond quickly, and move on.

00:47:37.360 --> 00:47:47.800
 So, that does – so, yes, if you put somebody in there that's maybe a little slower on the typing, a slower processor – I'm a verbal processor.

00:47:48.160 --> 00:47:50.780
 So, I can just quickly respond.

00:47:51.040 --> 00:47:52.420
 And that can be bad.

00:47:52.960 --> 00:47:56.100
 But in this particular case, it's actually helpful because I can move on more quickly.

00:47:56.240 --> 00:47:59.460
 If you've got someone who's too slow on the – right?

00:47:59.760 --> 00:48:00.640
 They're just a process.

00:48:00.740 --> 00:48:03.500
 That will eat up their time dramatically.

00:48:03.800 --> 00:48:08.020
 So, I don't think I spend probably – if you add up all the times I'm responding – a few hours a week.

00:48:08.320 --> 00:48:13.360
 So, and to me, that's a willing – for me, it's a willing – it's a good sacrifice.

00:48:14.180 --> 00:48:17.800
 But I still have to minister to my in-real-life congregation too, so I've got to be careful.

00:48:18.040 --> 00:48:20.420
 But it's a personality and skill set.

00:48:20.520 --> 00:48:26.800
 So, just put in your person who's the most hyper, the most quick to respond, but yet hopefully not going to be a jerk.

00:48:28.020 --> 00:48:29.260
 And I don't know.

00:48:29.340 --> 00:48:30.960
 Is that – I wish I could help you there.

00:48:31.220 --> 00:48:32.280
 That is helpful, though.

00:48:32.360 --> 00:48:35.620
 Because, Stephen, you hear you say, yeah, I'd probably put in another few hours.

00:48:35.780 --> 00:48:36.620
 It still is.

00:48:37.160 --> 00:48:37.820
 It's time.

00:48:38.380 --> 00:48:38.920
 Still time.

00:48:39.180 --> 00:48:41.200
 I would love to have a digital pastor.

00:48:41.340 --> 00:48:51.880
 That's probably – we actually put some – we just voted on our budget on Sunday, and we actually have some money set aside because I think we like to – you know, where I can come in and just be on a teaching team.

00:48:51.880 --> 00:48:59.020
 We have a teaching team, but even more sporadic and have, like, that campus pastor who's just a digital shepherd.

00:48:59.820 --> 00:49:00.400
 Whole nine yards.

00:49:00.460 --> 00:49:02.780
 That would be pretty legit.

00:49:04.000 --> 00:49:06.900
 Richard, Jeff, Jason, you got any other questions?

00:49:07.240 --> 00:49:09.260
 I'm curious about building teams a little bit, Jason.

00:49:09.720 --> 00:49:11.700
 So, you know, people come into VR.

00:49:12.000 --> 00:49:13.140
 They're excited about what you're doing.

00:49:13.240 --> 00:49:14.380
 Hey, how can I help out?

00:49:14.960 --> 00:49:17.020
 I've heard both ways in the digital world.

00:49:17.020 --> 00:49:24.480
 Either our vetting goes way up on that if they're speaking on our behalf, or we're going to make that bottom shelf and they're going to come in.

00:49:24.700 --> 00:49:25.860
 What have you learned in VR?

00:49:26.480 --> 00:49:34.060
 If someone's championing or, you know, joining a volunteer team, representing you, what would your advice be on vetting?

00:49:34.740 --> 00:49:34.960
 Yeah.

00:49:35.140 --> 00:49:37.780
 So, you know, it depends on the role.

00:49:38.060 --> 00:49:39.400
 I mean, same thing with in real life.

00:49:39.660 --> 00:49:42.800
 So my counselors, I mean, I, like, hardcore vet them.

00:49:42.800 --> 00:49:45.600
 I mean, there's a lot of stuff that goes into that.

00:49:47.300 --> 00:49:53.180
 You know, my teaching team is primarily the pastors and elders, and so that's, you know, that's already – that one's easier.

00:49:54.080 --> 00:49:55.940
 So I don't just let anybody preach or teach.

00:49:58.500 --> 00:49:59.000
 Let's see.

00:49:59.120 --> 00:50:02.760
 So, you know, a welcome team, you know, that's obviously a little easier.

00:50:02.980 --> 00:50:05.780
 And really, we don't just immediately ask somebody to be on that.

00:50:05.920 --> 00:50:08.800
 We, you know, they've got to show some consistency of coming.

00:50:08.800 --> 00:50:13.420
 And we talk quite a bit in the VR, so you get to know kind of their personality.

00:50:13.840 --> 00:50:17.040
 There's one guy that comes, and he's pretty surly.

00:50:17.160 --> 00:50:20.300
 Like, he's got his real persnickety perspectives.

00:50:20.780 --> 00:50:23.840
 And I'm like, no, it's not a – no, no.

00:50:24.000 --> 00:50:26.100
 Because there's a lot of different people.

00:50:26.200 --> 00:50:30.500
 There's some people that have some gender identity, gender dysphoria type stuff.

00:50:30.720 --> 00:50:32.840
 And a guy like that, you know, nah.

00:50:33.080 --> 00:50:34.460
 So you just got to be careful.

00:50:35.840 --> 00:50:41.800
 But as far as, like, getting their doctrine all sound to be on a welcome team, I'm not too concerned about that.

00:50:43.540 --> 00:50:45.400
 There's not that – I mean, there's a prayer team.

00:50:46.100 --> 00:50:47.200
 That's more concerning.

00:50:48.060 --> 00:50:51.820
 But it's not like we've got – it's not a megachurch, right?

00:50:51.880 --> 00:50:55.600
 So, like, me and Nicole is my director of operations.

00:50:55.840 --> 00:50:58.040
 Tom, who teaches, and he's in real life, and I trust him.

00:50:58.280 --> 00:50:59.460
 Like, we can handle all that.

00:50:59.980 --> 00:51:02.940
 So that one's almost like it just was easy.

00:51:02.940 --> 00:51:06.440
 But, yeah, I guess it depends on scalability.

00:51:06.700 --> 00:51:19.060
 Like, if your VR church becomes, like, a megachurch, and I don't know if it's even possible because of the limitations on how many people can be in a facility at one time digitally.

00:51:19.680 --> 00:51:21.860
 I think there's some hard limits.

00:51:21.940 --> 00:51:23.220
 We've not come up against those limits.

00:51:23.280 --> 00:51:25.500
 I think we have an 80-limit capacity.

00:51:25.900 --> 00:51:27.260
 So we're half of that.

00:51:27.300 --> 00:51:27.780
 So we're fine.

00:51:29.440 --> 00:51:33.540
 DJ's a little bigger, but I think that he was able to figure out a replication situation.

00:51:33.940 --> 00:51:42.680
 These are details that if it gets to that, we can talk to you more, and DJ would be more helpful, where he can actually mirror the world, and people can be in another world but see him.

00:51:43.480 --> 00:51:54.880
 Kind of weird, but you're not going to have, you know, yeah, your volunteer teams aren't going to, you're not going to need as many volunteers as I'm guessing you guys probably have at a sizable church in real life.

00:51:55.820 --> 00:51:59.660
 So, but vetting, yeah, it just depends on the role, on how intense I vet them.

00:52:00.360 --> 00:52:07.520
 But, yeah, I'm pretty, I'm a little bit, probably a little loose, maybe too much on definitely a lot of entry level.

00:52:07.700 --> 00:52:13.820
 I'm kind of like, well, if they totally blow it up, we'll have to clean up the, you know, clean up the mess.

00:52:15.480 --> 00:52:20.160
 But I'm putting them in roles that I don't think that's going to, you're not going to blow up the church.

00:52:20.880 --> 00:52:21.500
 Yeah, that's good.

00:52:21.560 --> 00:52:21.940
 That's helpful.

00:52:22.160 --> 00:52:22.380
 Thanks.

00:52:22.680 --> 00:52:22.860
 Yeah.

00:52:23.100 --> 00:52:31.780
 Can I ask you, this is a little, a totally different, really, question, but in regards to VR, you've probably heard of people who are doing, or like NBA,

00:52:31.960 --> 00:52:41.200
 who will sell their seats along the, along the, you know, front row and everyone, you know, you have a hundred people who reserve that seat and watch the game.

00:52:41.940 --> 00:52:51.280
 Is, is there a VR platform where you can do that as well, where you can put a 360 camera in the front row of your church during a 9 a.m.

00:52:51.280 --> 00:52:55.320
 and people can go VR and watch your church from the front row?

00:52:56.000 --> 00:52:58.160
 So, there is, you can do that.

00:52:58.160 --> 00:53:01.080
 Now, the, the platform is currently in the VR.

00:53:01.240 --> 00:53:03.380
 They don't, it's not really wired for that.

00:53:03.980 --> 00:53:10.860
 Those, the ones that I mentioned, you can show, no, I actually, I actually take that back.

00:53:10.940 --> 00:53:16.100
 You could, I know still photography, you definitely can do a 360.

00:53:16.460 --> 00:53:20.480
 I have not seen anybody do a video, a live video 360.

00:53:21.020 --> 00:53:25.820
 I'm guessing it's possible, but there are still some limitations on all the platforms.

00:53:25.820 --> 00:53:26.780
 So, I don't know about that.

00:53:27.480 --> 00:53:27.880
 But I do want to.

00:53:27.880 --> 00:53:29.140
 Live church 2021.

00:53:29.720 --> 00:53:32.640
 The, the gears installed, COVID just slowed down execution.

00:53:33.360 --> 00:53:35.060
 They're going to start, life church.

00:53:35.120 --> 00:53:35.920
 Life church is doing that.

00:53:36.020 --> 00:53:40.260
 They're, they're going to start executing that in, in, in the future.

00:53:40.840 --> 00:53:43.620
 Now, but they will have, they probably are going to have their own.

00:53:44.240 --> 00:53:46.340
 They're not going to be on all space or VR chat with that.

00:53:46.380 --> 00:53:47.540
 It's probably going to be their own thing.

00:53:47.940 --> 00:53:51.460
 Coupled with that, one of the rollouts, I'm probably not allowed to say this,

00:53:51.460 --> 00:54:02.140
 but even CHOP, church online platform, they're rolling out to encompass a virtual reality, photo, video type of thing.

00:54:02.560 --> 00:54:10.180
 So, and by, by doing that, you know, you're going to get, you're going to get your church 99.

00:54:10.860 --> 00:54:18.380
 And, and, and I think that's really the difference between the, the photo, video, VR, and getting into like all VR.

00:54:18.700 --> 00:54:21.520
 The photo, video is going to help you get your 99.

00:54:22.260 --> 00:54:28.240
 The avatar world that Jason lives in is going to get you a whole other person.

00:54:28.240 --> 00:54:30.460
 It's going to get you more to those, those ones.

00:54:30.680 --> 00:54:32.320
 So it really does come down.

00:54:32.440 --> 00:54:39.940
 Life church, I don't know that their priority is to get down to that one level of what kind of the world that, that Jason's describing.

00:54:40.240 --> 00:54:48.820
 It's coming in 2021, whether or not that's the right thing for you and, and, and how you're trying to, to do ministry, you know, is, is up in the air.

00:54:48.820 --> 00:54:51.260
 But you will have options there next year.

00:54:51.680 --> 00:54:54.820
 Are you guys really talking more like AR stuff now at this point?

00:54:55.100 --> 00:54:58.660
 Well, AR, it would be a little bit different and, and really cool.

00:54:59.160 --> 00:55:01.360
 Like that's, I would love to, I would love to do that.

00:55:01.420 --> 00:55:02.380
 Like that's, that's a goal.

00:55:02.460 --> 00:55:04.780
 I saw Jeffrey, Jeff, you have a comment on that?

00:55:04.800 --> 00:55:06.240
 Cause AR is, it's a little bit different.

00:55:06.840 --> 00:55:07.140
 Yeah.

00:55:07.920 --> 00:55:18.760
 So augmented reality is I'm, I'm wearing glasses that are inserting information data layered in front of the world.

00:55:18.760 --> 00:55:20.600
 So I'm looking at a road.

00:55:20.800 --> 00:55:24.440
 I'm physically seeing the road turn right in the GPS.

00:55:24.920 --> 00:55:27.280
 The arrow is telling me to turn right.

00:55:28.180 --> 00:55:30.960
 There's two different types of virtual reality.

00:55:31.160 --> 00:55:42.680
 One is going to be more cartoon avatar vector based where it's the drawings of avatars in these, in these made up elaborate worlds.

00:55:42.920 --> 00:55:56.140
 The second one is more in line with like, okay, I'm going to put a 360 camera in the room and we're going to allow people to see that camera.

00:55:56.140 --> 00:56:04.560
 And so, I mean, the, the, uh, illustration of basketball, I've seen churches do this where they put it in the, in the, you know, row five.

00:56:04.700 --> 00:56:06.800
 So you're seeing in between people.

00:56:06.800 --> 00:56:15.660
 And as the audience member looks around, they're experiencing everything that's happening in that, in that venue.

00:56:16.100 --> 00:56:26.980
 Um, the early traction on that has been that that's more getting people that are already engaged into the church and giving them a, a unique experience.

00:56:27.360 --> 00:56:34.820
 Um, those types of experiences are not as thick in the community as necessarily the avatar world.

00:56:34.920 --> 00:56:46.720
 It's more of, let me come, my daughter the other day, she watched, um, uh, Russian Bolshoi, whatever, the Russian ballerina crew do, um, Nutcracker.

00:56:47.400 --> 00:56:49.120
 Uh, to create experience.

00:56:49.500 --> 00:56:53.640
 My daughter is not engaging in community and is not looking to have long conversations.

00:56:53.640 --> 00:56:54.960
 She just wanted to go see the show.

00:56:55.480 --> 00:57:01.400
 And so that's really what you're going to get with this photo video realism type of, uh, VR.

00:57:01.980 --> 00:57:02.560
 That's good.

00:57:02.640 --> 00:57:03.300
 That's good summary.

00:57:03.660 --> 00:57:03.940
 Yeah.

00:57:04.060 --> 00:57:04.280
 Eight.

00:57:04.800 --> 00:57:10.300
 One thing that we're thinking with AR and I don't know when, when this will come or how I just depends on the technology.

00:57:10.420 --> 00:57:14.800
 Technology is there, but it's just a matter of figuring out how to merge that within real life.

00:57:14.800 --> 00:57:23.860
 Because so we were, uh, one of the things that's distinctive about us is that we've got our in real life congregation and this VR campus and they're actually, we, we consider them together.

00:57:23.860 --> 00:57:36.700
 And so for the, the baptisms we had, so we had our, uh, our annual business meeting at the same time in the afternoon as we have our VR, uh, church campus service.

00:57:36.880 --> 00:57:42.420
 So we actually showed, we, we show, um, we stream our services on Twitch.

00:57:42.700 --> 00:57:48.700
 And so we displayed the Twitch feed of the baptisms in our in real life congregation.

00:57:49.000 --> 00:57:56.380
 And so they actually got to, you know, see me up there in VR baptizing these two new brothers and, and actually we caught some footage.

00:57:56.460 --> 00:57:57.880
 Somebody caught some, it was really cool.

00:57:57.980 --> 00:58:02.040
 You're watching this, uh, this screen with the, uh, the Twitch feed.

00:58:02.040 --> 00:58:05.580
 And then you hear all these people clapping from the in real life church.

00:58:05.760 --> 00:58:08.880
 So right now that's where that's about as augmented as we can get.

00:58:09.380 --> 00:58:10.540
 Uh, but that's cool to me.

00:58:10.600 --> 00:58:18.460
 And I would love to get to a point where it's possible that the two congregations can be at the same time and somehow interface with one another.

00:58:18.620 --> 00:58:37.680
 So, uh, you could actually, if you had, if you had the technology and you had the glasses, again, all that's, there's, there's a cost part of that, but they could see an avatar, somebody that's part of their congregation in the VR right next to them, sitting next to them, augmented, sort of like Pokemon, Pokemon go, uh, and vice versa.

00:58:37.680 --> 00:58:45.180
 So then there'll also be a camera where the, uh, the VR person can, can recognize that he's sitting next to an in real life brother and sister.

00:58:45.360 --> 00:58:47.060
 So anyway, those are kind of dreams.

00:58:47.360 --> 00:58:48.420
 I think that could happen.

00:58:48.940 --> 00:58:51.820
 I don't know, Jeff, you, you would know better if that's even a possibility, but.

00:58:52.680 --> 00:58:56.940
 Let's see how 5G goes and then the developers will have fun after that.

00:58:57.120 --> 00:58:57.880
 Hope that's been helpful.

00:58:57.880 --> 00:58:59.740
 I don't know if I get any answers to your questions, but.

00:59:00.320 --> 00:59:00.640
 Good.

00:59:00.760 --> 00:59:02.180
 You, you answered a ton.

00:59:02.260 --> 00:59:03.740
 I, I appreciate all of this.

00:59:05.000 --> 00:59:05.360
 From.

00:59:05.600 --> 00:59:05.760
 Yeah.

00:59:05.840 --> 00:59:06.180
 Thanks guys.

00:59:06.480 --> 00:59:14.080
 Any help you ever, if you ever just want to chat again, or if you have questions, you can email me, discord me, PM me, whatever, DM me.

00:59:14.700 --> 00:59:16.220
 Are you guys, anybody on discord?

00:59:16.300 --> 00:59:16.860
 I'm just curious.

00:59:18.320 --> 00:59:18.720
 Okay.

00:59:19.360 --> 00:59:19.720
 Yeah.

00:59:20.480 --> 00:59:25.540
 We'd love for you to join the virtual ministry group server and also our cornerstone server.

00:59:25.540 --> 00:59:27.980
 You can kind of, you know, see what's going on there.

00:59:28.160 --> 00:59:28.300
 So.

00:59:28.980 --> 00:59:30.240
 Thank you, Jeff, for setting this up.

00:59:30.520 --> 00:59:30.800
 Jason.

00:59:30.940 --> 00:59:31.480
 Thanks, Jeff.

00:59:31.620 --> 00:59:32.460
 Appreciate it guys.

00:59:32.860 --> 00:59:33.060
 Yeah.

00:59:33.160 --> 00:59:34.060
 My, my pleasure.

00:59:34.180 --> 00:59:38.400
 I'm sure there'll be more conversations going on, but there's certainly a lot for you guys to process with today.

00:59:39.120 --> 00:59:41.780
 Jason, man, thanks for jumping in once again.

00:59:42.560 --> 00:59:44.140
 Love, love what you're, love what you're doing.

00:59:44.280 --> 00:59:45.160
 Keep, keep pushing.

00:59:45.960 --> 00:59:55.420
 Even yesterday I was, I was speaking to, uh, exponential, um, or a conference for exponential was talking about what you guys are doing out of, at a cornerstone.

00:59:55.420 --> 00:59:56.260
 So phenomenal.

00:59:56.760 --> 00:59:57.880
 Keep, keep doing it.

00:59:58.020 --> 01:00:01.740
 And, uh, we'll keep singing praises and hopefully changing some culture.

01:00:02.040 --> 01:00:06.000
 So, Hey, Josh, Richard, uh, Jason, man, I feel like I haven't seen you in a while.

01:00:06.080 --> 01:00:07.300
 Hope, hope things are going good.

01:00:07.680 --> 01:00:10.520
 Uh, Jeff, always good to, to catch up with you on.

01:00:10.560 --> 01:00:12.900
 If there's anything else y'all need, just let me know.