WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:03.380 Hey, we're going to get you to that podcast in one second, but before we get there, I, 00:00:03.580 --> 00:00:08.160 Jeff Reed, the Church Digital, Stadia Church Planning, I wanted to have a conversation with 00:00:08.160 --> 00:00:13.180 you, churches that are out there. One of the greatest things I arguably think that I've done 00:00:13.180 --> 00:00:17.300 in my life, other than married and kids, okay, that aside, one of the greatest ministry things 00:00:17.300 --> 00:00:21.800 I've ever done is this idea of the fidgetal learning communities that we are offering 00:00:21.800 --> 00:00:27.320 through Stadia Church Planning. We want to help you. We want to help your church learn to thrive, 00:00:27.320 --> 00:00:34.340 grow, and multiply fidgetally, physically, as well as digitally. We've seen about 200 churches go 00:00:34.340 --> 00:00:40.340 through this already, and it's been a phenomenal result of it. Culture is changing within these 00:00:40.340 --> 00:00:46.080 churches. They're understanding what it is to thrive. They're understanding how to grow people, 00:00:46.220 --> 00:00:52.500 how to grow their church, even in the midst of this COVID, not COVID, wherever we are in the season, 00:00:52.500 --> 00:00:59.520 and they're even starting to understand what it means to multiply in fidgetal space. There's no secret 00:00:59.520 --> 00:01:05.760 sauce to doing a digital strategy. There's no secret sauce to doing a fidgetal strategy. There's no 00:01:05.760 --> 00:01:11.660 secret sauce to making your church thrive, grow, and multiply. It takes work. I'm not going to lie, 00:01:11.840 --> 00:01:15.180 but through the framework, through the questions, through the learning communities, 00:01:15.180 --> 00:01:21.920 we connect you with churches. We give you some content. We coach you along the way to help you 00:01:21.920 --> 00:01:28.860 make the decisions that you need to make so that your church's strategy can thrive, grow, and multiply 00:01:28.860 --> 00:01:35.280 your church along the way. This is a great opportunity for your church. We would love to have you be a part 00:01:35.280 --> 00:01:42.020 of it. For more information, check out stadiacchurchplanning.org slash fidgetal, 00:01:42.020 --> 00:01:49.580 stadiacchurchplanning.org slash fidgetal, P-H-Y-G-I-T-A-L. All right. Hey, that's it. We're 00:01:49.580 --> 00:01:54.700 going to get you back to that episode right now. Hey, listening audience up front, I want to tell 00:01:54.700 --> 00:02:00.200 you here transparently, at some point in this conversation, in this podcast episode, you're 00:02:00.200 --> 00:02:05.560 going to hear my head explode. That's right. Jeff here with the Church Digital Podcast, powered by 00:02:05.560 --> 00:02:13.200 Stadia Church Planting. And it's this conversation here. This is the one that there's stuff that is 00:02:13.200 --> 00:02:19.800 radically rocking my world right now. Don't mean that. I don't want to overstate that. I don't 00:02:19.800 --> 00:02:27.540 mean that in an awkward way, but it is so good. And it's so relevant for where we are today, 00:02:27.540 --> 00:02:34.080 Stadia Church, and what the future of our churches need to look like. So here's where we are. We're 00:02:34.080 --> 00:02:40.100 bringing it into the conversation. Well, I met this gentleman, Sam George, earlier in 2021. I was 00:02:40.100 --> 00:02:46.440 invited to a SEND Institute think tank, an opportunity really just to gain connections with other 00:02:46.440 --> 00:02:52.540 missiologists. Honestly, I went into it and not even know what a missiologist was and kind of enjoyed 00:02:52.540 --> 00:03:01.040 learning some of that culture and how these people think, what their challenges are, how they view the 00:03:01.040 --> 00:03:05.760 church, what their different perspectives are, what their unique worldviews. And so it was a really 00:03:05.760 --> 00:03:12.480 fascinating conversation. But by far, by far, the best contact I had was with Sam George. You see, Sam, 00:03:13.160 --> 00:03:18.360 right off the bat with his keynote, he started talking about something that's like, I've never really 00:03:18.360 --> 00:03:23.400 thought of the world. I've never really thought of the church this way. And he was talking specifically 00:03:23.400 --> 00:03:30.580 about this word diaspora, which means the scattering. Now, you know, typically in context, and we've used 00:03:30.580 --> 00:03:37.440 the term ekklesia on this podcast a ton. Don't abandon the ekklesia, the gathering of believers. 00:03:38.100 --> 00:03:43.520 It's the gathering of the called, the calling of the gathered. And so ekklesia has been a popular term, 00:03:43.560 --> 00:03:50.280 even against this idea of digital church. I've had pastors tell me things like, you know, don't abandon 00:03:50.280 --> 00:03:56.020 the ekklesia, Jeff, by what we're doing online, but what you're asking to do online, it's, it's 00:03:56.020 --> 00:04:02.720 abandoning the gathering in the physical space. And so honestly, I've challenged that by saying, 00:04:02.860 --> 00:04:09.720 okay, well, let's recognize that there's a gathering of people in digital community and that 00:04:09.720 --> 00:04:15.400 a community is worthy of a church. And so we need to gather and recognize that gathering ekklesia 00:04:15.400 --> 00:04:21.800 in digital community is as good as gathering of an ekklesia in physical community. And I don't know 00:04:21.800 --> 00:04:29.460 that that's wrong. I still believe that. But Sam opens up this whole other world, this whole other 00:04:29.460 --> 00:04:37.600 realm of possibilities in context of the diaspora, which is the scattering of these believers. Now, 00:04:37.640 --> 00:04:41.980 we see this biblically, and I'm going to get a little preachy here, sorry, but we see this in Acts, 00:04:42.260 --> 00:04:50.080 when Stephen is martyred, and the Christians really early church starts to feel persecution, 00:04:50.200 --> 00:04:54.860 maybe for the first time, and they scatter. I mean, biblically, I believe the reference is where 00:04:54.860 --> 00:05:01.920 they say, and as they went, they preach the gospel, wherever they went, wherever God was leading them. 00:05:01.920 --> 00:05:11.400 And so we see this diasporatic movement of where the church is scattered, and then they're regathered, 00:05:11.400 --> 00:05:17.780 and then they gather back up into ekklesia. And Sam talks about how the two, the ekklesia and the 00:05:17.780 --> 00:05:25.800 diaspora work together. It's the gathering of the scattered, and then it's the scattering of the 00:05:25.800 --> 00:05:32.400 gathered, because God, what we know from scripture, God is on the move. I feel a little bit like Aslan 00:05:32.400 --> 00:05:39.080 is on the move, but they work together. So here's where we are. Sam really starts to unpack this 00:05:39.080 --> 00:05:47.820 stuff here in this conversation, talking about a revival in the country of Germany, not because of 00:05:47.820 --> 00:05:55.260 Western European church in that area, but because of East Asian influences coming in from Christians 00:05:55.260 --> 00:06:00.940 that have been persecuted from China, who get on a high-speed train, and because that high-speed train 00:06:00.940 --> 00:06:09.360 has a stop in Germany, they move to Germany, and now the Eastern Asian influence is now in the 00:06:09.360 --> 00:06:17.820 German country, and they're seeing revival because the Eastern Asia, the Chinese church has brought 00:06:17.820 --> 00:06:24.120 change, has brought completion for the church in the German country. 00:06:24.720 --> 00:06:31.120 Phenomenal stuff on a global perspective. And the more that I listen to his school of thought, 00:06:31.520 --> 00:06:37.740 honestly, the more that I start to vibe on this idea of, what can digital do? Hey, so we're seeing a 00:06:37.740 --> 00:06:43.360 country like Germany seeing revival because there's literally a physical railroad that just happens 00:06:43.360 --> 00:06:50.320 to stop in the country of Germany and Chinese people get off. What if we looked at church that way? 00:06:50.400 --> 00:06:58.160 What if we did not? What if we did not just look at the church as digital, as an opportunity to evangelize 00:06:58.160 --> 00:07:03.200 digitally, to reach new people digitally? What if digital was more than an evangelical tool? 00:07:04.020 --> 00:07:10.720 What if it was an opportunity to bring influences in? What if we, church, what if we were open to 00:07:10.720 --> 00:07:16.160 hearing and receiving some of those influences? How could those influences solve maybe some of the 00:07:16.160 --> 00:07:24.100 problems we have? Maybe discipleship, maybe relationships in context of the Western church, 00:07:24.200 --> 00:07:30.360 the North American church. It's interesting. And Sam's going to pull some of that thread here a little 00:07:30.360 --> 00:07:35.300 bit. I just upfront, I want to say in this, this may feel like a little weird conversation. You know, 00:07:35.360 --> 00:07:39.340 yeah, the topic is going to be very heady, probably a little more heady than we normally hit on here 00:07:39.340 --> 00:07:45.200 with the Church Digital Podcast. My full intention was to have a five-minute conversation with Sam 00:07:45.200 --> 00:07:50.140 George and invite him to do a podcast recording with me later down the road. Transparently, 00:07:50.820 --> 00:07:57.900 we started the conversation with Sam George and it just got deep in a hurry. And at the end of this, 00:07:57.900 --> 00:08:03.440 I was like, this is so good. This conversation we just had, like this needs to be the podcast, 00:08:03.560 --> 00:08:09.400 not come back and do it again. And so some of the hosting and the bits may not be to the normal 00:08:09.400 --> 00:08:14.900 level of what you're looking for, what you've experienced here, but just remember walking into 00:08:14.900 --> 00:08:20.980 this, the depth of the conversation and hopefully some of the takeaways that you'll have for it. 00:08:21.100 --> 00:08:26.240 So here we are for the conversation. We're bringing in Sam George from Send Institute. Also in the 00:08:26.240 --> 00:08:31.740 conversation, you'll hear from Brent Folk, who's the VP of Global for Stadia Church Planting, 00:08:31.900 --> 00:08:38.200 fellow coworker, love working with him with planting digital churches on a global perspective, 00:08:38.200 --> 00:08:44.020 which has a whole new perspective on honestly off of this conversation. You also got myself, 00:08:44.120 --> 00:08:49.580 Jeff, with the Church Digital and Stadia Church Planting. And in a conversation that I'm simply calling 00:08:49.580 --> 00:08:57.300 Diaspora Ecclesia, the scattering of the gathering. Okay, everybody, here you go. 00:08:58.520 --> 00:09:03.740 This idea of the diaspora where the church was separated, Acts 12, 13, wherever it was, forgive 00:09:03.740 --> 00:09:09.060 me if the biblical knowledge is bad, but Stephen gets stoned, everybody dispersed. And as they went, 00:09:09.180 --> 00:09:15.200 they spread, they preached the gospel. This is a new concept because when I actually look at, 00:09:15.200 --> 00:09:22.080 at least what I'm interpreting diaspora as it's being dispersed, I think that's almost a recognition of 00:09:22.080 --> 00:09:29.600 how the digital church can operate. Maybe it's not in the physical area, but as we're being dispersed yet 00:09:29.600 --> 00:09:36.760 connected together by digital tools, we're preaching the gospel where we go in physical space as well as in 00:09:36.760 --> 00:09:42.460 digital space. And as you were talking, I'm like, I would love to have that conversation because I feel like 00:09:42.460 --> 00:09:49.200 there's something there that would help us maybe explain this better, reconcile this better to people 00:09:49.200 --> 00:09:56.880 who are not recognizing digital community as a community. Maybe it's through the diaspora approach 00:09:56.880 --> 00:09:57.800 that we're still able to be connected. 00:09:57.800 --> 00:10:02.560 Also, I would say, you know, I think it's a generational thing. You know, I, you know, 00:10:03.280 --> 00:10:10.300 these kids now, for example, you know, I got two kids in high school and this post-COVID generation 00:10:10.300 --> 00:10:16.100 or those who have been born in the 21st century or what we call as a digital natives, 00:10:17.040 --> 00:10:24.780 for them, this is the first world that they interact with. And so this virtuality and reality 00:10:24.780 --> 00:10:30.200 kind of in some way, you know, you know, sometimes the experience is more real 00:10:30.200 --> 00:10:36.180 than the real experience in classroom. And, you know, they're spending eight, 10 hours online, 00:10:36.720 --> 00:10:42.800 digitally wired, you know, these technologies going to be, you know, into your, in your body now. And, 00:10:43.460 --> 00:10:46.180 you know, you know, chips in your head and all those kinds of things. 00:10:47.400 --> 00:10:53.720 You know, I think, you know, this generation, so talk about, you know, these 20, those who are born 00:10:53.720 --> 00:11:02.060 after 2000, when they come into adulthood. And, you know, first step would be the virtual reality is 00:11:02.060 --> 00:11:08.360 the more real than the, you know, reality or physicality. But then that doesn't end either. 00:11:08.800 --> 00:11:14.480 You know, it has to, you know, you don't do marriage, you don't do, you know, a deep level of connection. 00:11:15.540 --> 00:11:19.360 Virtuality has its own limitation. Physicality and proximity does matter. 00:11:20.480 --> 00:11:26.300 So the idea is the, the whole understanding of, you know, church, kind of, you know, ecclesiology, 00:11:26.660 --> 00:11:32.160 you know, the history of the understanding of the theology of the church is where we are beginning to kind of, 00:11:32.220 --> 00:11:37.920 you know, make some kind of, you know, push and re-understanding and re-articulating. 00:11:38.620 --> 00:11:43.860 And so that's where this diaspora missiology comes in. So diaspora is scattering 00:11:43.860 --> 00:11:51.380 and ecclesia is gathering. And we have done one or the other. And, you know, here is, you know, 00:11:51.420 --> 00:11:58.460 home missions and here is foreign mission. Here is Sunday morning gathering. And now, you know, go to, 00:11:59.040 --> 00:12:03.360 you know, go to your life and do your life and then come back here next Sunday and, you know, 00:12:03.360 --> 00:12:09.860 pay your tithes and, you know, you know, be a part of a small group. And, and I think that kind of 00:12:09.860 --> 00:12:17.420 thinking is beginning to evolve and, you know, emerge into new realities. So it's what we call as 00:12:17.420 --> 00:12:25.940 diaspora ecclesia. You're dispersed or scattered to gather and the gathered one scatter. 00:12:27.460 --> 00:12:31.560 And so traditionally we have talked about, you know, the church and mission is two different 00:12:31.560 --> 00:12:36.100 departments. We have a missions pastor. We have a missionary. We send them. We support a missionary 00:12:36.100 --> 00:12:44.060 out there, whatever that is. That's kind of a, kind of a dichotomy model of that. And then we 00:12:44.060 --> 00:12:49.980 started talking about gospel and culture. So this is Leslie Newbigin and all of those guys, 00:12:50.620 --> 00:12:57.280 much of the late 20th century engagement and mission in North America and Europe has become a mission 00:12:57.280 --> 00:13:02.740 field. And so beginning to rethink how we do missions here. Mission is not something that we do 00:13:02.740 --> 00:13:09.420 out there. Mission is something that we need to happen here. Then the conversation emerged into what 00:13:09.420 --> 00:13:14.720 we call as a missional church. Are you familiar with Daryl Gooder and some of those writings? 00:13:15.820 --> 00:13:21.700 So missional church was a major moment in the nineties. And, but then again, you know, I mean, 00:13:21.700 --> 00:13:27.160 you know, church becoming missional kind of turning outward kind of instead of inward looking outward 00:13:27.160 --> 00:13:32.420 focused. So now we kind of, you know, so it's not of, you know, so kind of I'm beginning to talk 00:13:32.420 --> 00:13:42.480 about this idea that the coupling of this word scattered gathering and gathered scattering. 00:13:44.160 --> 00:13:48.500 So this kind of conceptually, you know, it's like a little postmodern idea, not either or, 00:13:49.120 --> 00:13:57.580 but blending both together is the, you know, both and paradigm. If church exists, you know, 00:13:57.620 --> 00:14:05.500 for itself, it is just a club, social club. Church exists for the mission of God. So you need an 00:14:05.500 --> 00:14:11.360 outward orientation, but you're all about outward, outward, outward. Then you don't know who you are 00:14:11.360 --> 00:14:16.860 and what you stand on. That doesn't have a community and accountability. And so we are made 00:14:16.860 --> 00:14:21.840 for relationship at the very heart of it. The doctrine of man, understanding our need for 00:14:21.840 --> 00:14:26.660 relationship. So it can be virtual or real, but there'll be level of depth of relationship is what 00:14:26.660 --> 00:14:32.260 we need to measure. So it is this idea that I call scattered gathering and gathered scattering. 00:14:33.800 --> 00:14:37.300 But it's kind of blending these together. I mean, it's like, you know, what the church is, 00:14:37.300 --> 00:14:42.220 for example, Rick Warren will say, you know, you know, 101, 401, the baseball analogy, 00:14:42.900 --> 00:14:46.660 four things that we need to do to understand the church, purpose-driven church, 00:14:47.300 --> 00:14:52.560 four purposes of the church. And I kind of blend some of that, you know, kind of a flat, 00:14:52.980 --> 00:14:58.620 horizontal to what I call as like a DNA structure, a little more complicated. 00:14:59.160 --> 00:15:05.920 So it's like a spiral of a DNA, twin strands. One strand is the diaspora. One strand is the 00:15:05.920 --> 00:15:12.640 ecclesia. Both need to exist together and both exist for each other. And it's together that we 00:15:12.640 --> 00:15:18.820 understand the purpose of what does it mean to be the people of God. So there is a sense of dispersion. 00:15:18.820 --> 00:15:24.580 And we are scattered together. We gather to scatter for the mission of God. 00:15:25.780 --> 00:15:30.440 So that's kind of the kind of, you know, the new ecclesiology that we talk about. 00:15:31.180 --> 00:15:36.140 At the very core of it, we need to understand that we are scattered people. We are on a mission of God. 00:15:37.140 --> 00:15:45.000 And, but we, understanding of dispersed gathering, because we are no more captive to geography and time. 00:15:45.720 --> 00:15:45.980 Right. 00:15:46.740 --> 00:15:52.500 We have been liberated. And at least this technology era, digital era is liberating us. We are not, 00:15:52.620 --> 00:15:56.680 church is nothing that Sunday morning, you know, it's one particular physical locality 00:15:56.680 --> 00:16:03.240 and one particular time under one particular leader. We are conscribed to certain set of doctrines. 00:16:03.240 --> 00:16:10.820 So methodology. So this is largely the, uh, reformation idea, uh, Germany and Anglican and, 00:16:11.000 --> 00:16:17.980 you know, Presbyterians and Baptists and all of them have, uh, we have been captive and we've been, 00:16:17.980 --> 00:16:26.640 uh, bound, uh, by, um, either doctrine, denomination, organization, uh, geographical space and timing. 00:16:27.340 --> 00:16:32.900 Now at one stretch, we are getting liberated from all of that. Uh, COVID has really disrupted. 00:16:33.240 --> 00:16:38.240 All of that in some way. So what do we understand? How do we understand who we are as God's people? 00:16:39.600 --> 00:16:42.420 Uh, it's not a set of rituals that we go through and the religious motion, 00:16:42.420 --> 00:16:46.380 but to understand that we have a sense of connection with few people, 00:16:46.380 --> 00:16:51.860 but we are engaging the world for the sake of the kingdom and for the sake of the gospel. 00:16:53.320 --> 00:16:58.920 So that's kind of a, kind of a little complicated schematic. I can, you know, I have some, you know. 00:16:58.920 --> 00:17:05.580 How do you characterize the commonality? Is, uh, loyalty to the person of Christ? Is it, uh, scriptural authority? 00:17:05.800 --> 00:17:11.920 Yes. Yes. Yeah. So, you know, uh, so, you know, so the, all those, you know, uh, four core, you know, 00:17:11.960 --> 00:17:19.160 Rick Warren will say four, some people will say six at the very core of what are those things that are binding these two strands? 00:17:19.800 --> 00:17:23.780 The kind of scattering strand and the helical structure. 00:17:24.260 --> 00:17:28.680 You're familiar with the biology, you know, your high school biology class or something, 00:17:28.800 --> 00:17:30.060 the double helix structure. 00:17:30.560 --> 00:17:34.740 So these are complex imagination to understand an organizational model. 00:17:35.240 --> 00:17:38.460 So it is not hierarchical. It's not structured. It's not a network, 00:17:38.460 --> 00:17:43.980 but to understand a complex, um, schematic understanding of a DNA structure. 00:17:44.460 --> 00:17:48.600 So there are strands that are connecting between Ecclesia and the diaspora. 00:17:49.540 --> 00:17:53.480 And so one of the stand is scripture, uh, because it's foundational for us. 00:17:54.120 --> 00:17:58.340 Uh, there is a time of worship and prayer up and down, uh, those structures. 00:17:59.280 --> 00:18:02.480 And, uh, navigators will say, you know, you know, wheel diagram. 00:18:02.480 --> 00:18:04.800 You're familiar with the wheel diagram of navigators, guys? 00:18:05.360 --> 00:18:08.040 Two in one, two up and down and left and right. 00:18:08.180 --> 00:18:11.580 And, you know, center is the hub and, and Christian life at the margin. 00:18:11.780 --> 00:18:14.080 So these are campus crusade has certain models. 00:18:14.220 --> 00:18:15.580 Navigators have developed certain models. 00:18:15.680 --> 00:18:17.000 Rick has developed certain models. 00:18:17.860 --> 00:18:21.880 Uh, you know, some of the other, you know, Baptists and there are various different models 00:18:21.880 --> 00:18:23.360 that we talk about what church. 00:18:23.780 --> 00:18:25.440 So at the core of it, what does it exist? 00:18:25.680 --> 00:18:30.640 Some people will emphasize more Africans and Latinos will emphasize fellowship a lot more. 00:18:31.400 --> 00:18:35.760 Uh, because they are much more relational people, you know, Asian people, Chinese and Koreans 00:18:35.760 --> 00:18:38.380 and Indians, and this kind of relational connectivity is very high. 00:18:38.940 --> 00:18:43.500 Uh, but sometimes, you know, the teaching of the word, some people emphasize strong teaching. 00:18:43.660 --> 00:18:48.220 So kind of need for the teaching because they're a little more cerebral, a little more, you 00:18:48.220 --> 00:18:50.300 know, intellectual capacity to process things. 00:18:50.420 --> 00:18:53.240 But some people learn through life on life. 00:18:54.000 --> 00:18:56.500 Uh, so discipleship happens in a many different ways. 00:18:56.500 --> 00:19:02.900 So DMM model to CPM models and understanding all of this to go, go back to understand what 00:19:02.900 --> 00:19:04.140 really is the church. 00:19:04.460 --> 00:19:09.760 And I think, you know, the COVID, if not anything else, is forcing us to ask this question. 00:19:10.120 --> 00:19:14.680 What does it mean to be people of God and to be on the mission of God? 00:19:16.200 --> 00:19:22.340 So that's kind of the understanding of church, ecclesia, missiology, ecclesiology and theology 00:19:22.340 --> 00:19:23.000 of God. 00:19:23.000 --> 00:19:27.520 And all of that has to be kind of reframed to understand like what Jeff is doing. 00:19:27.620 --> 00:19:30.140 I mean, it's got, you know, a few thousand people all over the country. 00:19:30.860 --> 00:19:32.160 And how do we understand that? 00:19:32.240 --> 00:19:33.780 So what are those foundational things? 00:19:34.360 --> 00:19:36.840 So one is definitely, you know, worship and prayer. 00:19:36.940 --> 00:19:38.800 There's an element of awe of God. 00:19:38.880 --> 00:19:41.920 It's not like sing three songs, you know, hear to a sermon. 00:19:42.080 --> 00:19:43.760 There is a three-point sermon or whatever that is. 00:19:44.280 --> 00:19:50.040 We have programmatized it, structured it, created a model so that we can quickly duplicate. 00:19:50.700 --> 00:19:56.180 So this is the Western tendency because I think sometimes we are very pragmatic and we are very 00:19:56.180 --> 00:19:57.380 economically driven. 00:19:57.940 --> 00:19:58.880 Does it reproducible? 00:19:59.680 --> 00:20:03.720 I go to a conference, okay, tell me one working model that I can go back and erect and raise 00:20:03.720 --> 00:20:04.780 money and support myself. 00:20:05.780 --> 00:20:11.340 So I think we are going beyond that to understand beyond pragmatism and, you know, flexibility 00:20:11.340 --> 00:20:15.460 and much more organic in its nature. 00:20:16.280 --> 00:20:22.360 The body of God, church of God is, you know, it's on the move, unlike, irrespective of what 00:20:22.360 --> 00:20:25.440 you and I say or do, because our God is a living God. 00:20:25.520 --> 00:20:26.420 He is a moving God. 00:20:26.500 --> 00:20:27.360 He is a missionary God. 00:20:29.400 --> 00:20:34.500 So I've just, I have something else that I wrote in this connection is, you know, to develop 00:20:34.500 --> 00:20:38.220 this ecclesiology, we need a better theology itself. 00:20:38.380 --> 00:20:40.160 We need to go back to understand theology. 00:20:40.880 --> 00:20:48.120 And so the 20th century, one of the big missionary, big theological idea that evolved was missio 00:20:48.120 --> 00:20:50.840 de, Latin word missio de. 00:20:51.660 --> 00:20:57.380 And, but this also comes with a lot of those mission jargons and colonial overtones and all 00:20:57.380 --> 00:20:57.720 of that. 00:20:58.700 --> 00:21:03.000 So kind of, I wrote a chapter on a book, I think it's expanding into a book now, it's called 00:21:03.000 --> 00:21:03.760 the Motus De. 00:21:04.820 --> 00:21:06.600 Motus De is the move of God. 00:21:07.480 --> 00:21:09.760 To understand God as a moving God. 00:21:10.760 --> 00:21:11.820 God is on the move. 00:21:13.420 --> 00:21:17.480 So you understand the doctrine of God in terms of moving. 00:21:18.160 --> 00:21:20.380 The triune God is a moving God. 00:21:21.160 --> 00:21:25.340 He's constantly interpenetration, talking between, interacting with each other. 00:21:27.060 --> 00:21:30.540 If God is not a moving God, we make God as an idol. 00:21:31.920 --> 00:21:34.780 Idol is the one who cannot move or cannot talk. 00:21:35.740 --> 00:21:37.760 Jeremiah talks about carrying the idols. 00:21:38.340 --> 00:21:39.040 He needs to be carried. 00:21:39.200 --> 00:21:40.220 Gods need to be carried. 00:21:40.900 --> 00:21:45.260 He was mocking at the idolatry of, you know, the people. 00:21:46.380 --> 00:21:49.760 And so, you know, I mean, then Indian culture, my roots are in India. 00:21:50.240 --> 00:21:55.580 So understanding idolatry and so New Testament and the theology of idolatry, much has been 00:21:55.580 --> 00:22:00.880 written on it, both from the Old Testament culture, New Testament issues, and then theology 00:22:00.880 --> 00:22:01.600 of idolatry. 00:22:02.420 --> 00:22:03.900 And so kind of understanding God. 00:22:04.040 --> 00:22:05.300 God is a living God. 00:22:05.420 --> 00:22:06.840 Christian God is a living God. 00:22:07.360 --> 00:22:10.280 And if he's a moving God and he's a talking God. 00:22:10.900 --> 00:22:14.980 And so all of that understanding God as a God is a moving, right from Genesis chapter 00:22:14.980 --> 00:22:16.580 one, he's on the move. 00:22:16.840 --> 00:22:17.500 God is on the move. 00:22:18.120 --> 00:22:20.560 So let's not domesticate God. 00:22:21.040 --> 00:22:23.400 Let's not anchor him to a geographical location. 00:22:24.840 --> 00:22:26.560 Christianity always moved about. 00:22:27.860 --> 00:22:29.100 Jerusalem was it began. 00:22:30.180 --> 00:22:36.060 Moved to Antioch, moved to Ephesus, moved to Rome, moved to Germany, moved to England, 00:22:36.760 --> 00:22:37.540 came to America. 00:22:37.540 --> 00:22:38.840 Now it's gone to the global south. 00:22:39.780 --> 00:22:41.780 Real Christian action is in the global south now. 00:22:42.700 --> 00:22:45.060 So center of Christianity is always moving. 00:22:45.480 --> 00:22:50.540 We cannot hold and tighten him, fasten him to North America or anywhere else for the 00:22:50.540 --> 00:22:50.740 example. 00:22:51.600 --> 00:22:53.880 Unlike that, Hinduism is a very rooted religion. 00:22:54.460 --> 00:22:55.940 It is geographically bound. 00:22:56.780 --> 00:22:58.860 Islam is also very geographically bound. 00:22:58.980 --> 00:22:59.220 Mecca. 00:23:00.100 --> 00:23:01.960 We turn towards Mecca and pray. 00:23:02.100 --> 00:23:03.440 We do pilgrimages to Mecca. 00:23:04.040 --> 00:23:05.380 The scripture cannot be translated. 00:23:05.780 --> 00:23:09.360 So geographical, linguistic, cultural centrality. 00:23:10.620 --> 00:23:11.980 Christianity has no center. 00:23:12.120 --> 00:23:14.940 You might do your, you know, holy land trip and all that. 00:23:15.660 --> 00:23:19.600 But our God is not confined to that geography or that particular culture. 00:23:20.640 --> 00:23:24.020 Because our God rose again and he's a living person and he's moving about. 00:23:25.260 --> 00:23:26.880 And that's why our allegiance come. 00:23:26.980 --> 00:23:28.160 Because he pursues us. 00:23:28.900 --> 00:23:30.600 God who's always a pursuing God. 00:23:30.800 --> 00:23:32.420 Holy Spirit saying, I'm going. 00:23:32.560 --> 00:23:33.500 But the Holy Spirit is coming. 00:23:34.080 --> 00:23:36.240 And where the wind goes, you don't know. 00:23:36.600 --> 00:23:37.520 But God is moving. 00:23:38.240 --> 00:23:40.560 There are 700 million Christians in Africa. 00:23:41.520 --> 00:23:45.600 In my recent few travels to Africa, man, blown away what God is doing in Africa. 00:23:46.740 --> 00:23:48.980 Thousands and thousands of missionaries are rising. 00:23:49.540 --> 00:23:51.440 And they're going to save Europe. 00:23:51.980 --> 00:23:53.080 And here in America. 00:23:54.800 --> 00:23:57.760 So, you know, 600 million, you know, in Latin America now. 00:23:58.140 --> 00:23:59.900 Christianity is exploding in the global south. 00:24:00.580 --> 00:24:01.880 And in China and Iran. 00:24:03.000 --> 00:24:04.020 So, we need to see that. 00:24:04.080 --> 00:24:09.680 Sometimes our own parochial narrow-mindedness, we see the world from North American vantage point. 00:24:10.140 --> 00:24:11.860 But that also is limiting us. 00:24:12.080 --> 00:24:13.380 We are not able to see the full picture. 00:24:13.980 --> 00:24:15.460 Because we have blinders on us. 00:24:15.640 --> 00:24:17.000 We only see the local reality. 00:24:18.420 --> 00:24:19.280 Hinduism is grounded. 00:24:19.480 --> 00:24:20.780 Christianity is a mobile faith. 00:24:21.100 --> 00:24:22.940 So, we go to the doctrine of fall. 00:24:24.180 --> 00:24:25.820 And doctrine of incarnation. 00:24:26.540 --> 00:24:27.480 Doctrine of salvation. 00:24:28.220 --> 00:24:29.500 And doctrine of eschatology. 00:24:29.680 --> 00:24:30.980 All of them in terms of movement. 00:24:32.440 --> 00:24:33.660 And the doctrine of mission. 00:24:33.960 --> 00:24:37.320 All of that, I've reframed it within this idea of Motha's Day. 00:24:37.780 --> 00:24:39.360 God is a God who is on the move. 00:24:41.020 --> 00:24:41.540 Love it. 00:24:41.840 --> 00:24:42.880 When's that book coming out? 00:24:43.280 --> 00:24:44.100 Oh, I don't know. 00:24:44.520 --> 00:24:45.900 It's all off to the press now. 00:24:47.360 --> 00:24:48.440 It's out of my hand. 00:24:48.500 --> 00:24:49.620 I have no control after that. 00:24:51.400 --> 00:24:52.340 That's awesome. 00:24:52.760 --> 00:24:54.920 So, this is a doctoral class that I'm teaching. 00:24:55.100 --> 00:24:56.520 I'm teaching a theology class. 00:24:57.680 --> 00:25:01.860 But sometimes theologians don't like us missiologists coming and, you know, shaking up their world. 00:25:01.880 --> 00:25:07.520 Just like, you know, Jeff, we're to go to a local, you know, you know, even an evangelical. 00:25:07.760 --> 00:25:11.820 I don't want to pick up Anglicans or the, you know, United Methodists or Lutherans. 00:25:12.340 --> 00:25:13.500 Say, they're a digital church. 00:25:13.600 --> 00:25:15.440 I mean, who's going to accept your ideas now? 00:25:16.720 --> 00:25:19.800 They like practitioners like us even less, trust me. 00:25:19.800 --> 00:25:20.040 Yeah. 00:25:22.860 --> 00:25:28.320 I mean, the practice and theory, you know, that's where practical theology is a fantastic field. 00:25:29.160 --> 00:25:38.540 You're not doing a cerebral, you know, IV tower kind of conversation, which is absolutely abstract philosophy, have no consequences to anybody. 00:25:39.680 --> 00:25:46.740 Or you become so practical and pragmatic, you're not grounding yourself in good, systematic thinking and theology. 00:25:47.400 --> 00:25:48.460 Both is dangerous. 00:25:49.300 --> 00:26:05.500 And practical theologians kind of interface between both worlds and ground themselves well that will last beyond our lifetimes and the fads that come and go, like fashion boutique and the magazines and then latest tech trends, which will come. 00:26:05.580 --> 00:26:06.920 So, we are not a technology company. 00:26:07.580 --> 00:26:10.720 We are, you know, missionaries and, you know, missions of God. 00:26:10.780 --> 00:26:12.500 And that's lasting far beyond our lifetime. 00:26:13.220 --> 00:26:20.400 You said at the course once, and I want to ask this, you know, it was this idea of the global church completes the U.S. church. 00:26:21.860 --> 00:26:27.400 You want to, and even to the point of, you want to understand the book of Acts, go live in China for six months, then read the book of Acts. 00:26:27.440 --> 00:26:31.340 You want to understand the book of Acts, six weeks in India, something to that extent. 00:26:32.860 --> 00:26:39.980 Love it, head exploded, like really kind of helped revolutionize and define even how I was looking at the global church. 00:26:40.740 --> 00:26:43.240 What's a key lesson? 00:26:43.580 --> 00:26:47.500 What's a takeaway from like a doctrinal perspective? 00:26:48.320 --> 00:26:53.040 What are we missing at the U.S. church that they're understanding? 00:26:53.280 --> 00:26:55.420 Is it a better dependence on God? 00:26:55.620 --> 00:26:58.980 Is it the idea of a more relational approach? 00:26:58.980 --> 00:27:03.620 Like, what are the things that we're missing here at the North American church? 00:27:04.080 --> 00:27:05.060 No, I think it's exciting. 00:27:05.280 --> 00:27:06.700 You know, North America is an exciting place. 00:27:06.760 --> 00:27:07.620 Don't take me wrong. 00:27:08.480 --> 00:27:16.100 And, but the idea is we need to see North American Christianity is fundamentally diasporic Christianity. 00:27:18.100 --> 00:27:20.900 It is a wave after wave of immigrants. 00:27:20.900 --> 00:27:26.380 They brought their distinctive Christianity, but they brought it from different parts of the world. 00:27:28.520 --> 00:27:33.220 And when they come and they interact with each other over generations. 00:27:34.520 --> 00:27:36.640 So first generation will create their own. 00:27:36.740 --> 00:27:42.360 So German churches, Swedish churches, Irish churches, Italian churches, German churches. 00:27:42.460 --> 00:27:42.840 Wonderful. 00:27:43.460 --> 00:27:44.480 Second World War happens. 00:27:44.940 --> 00:27:46.480 You can't do German churches anymore. 00:27:46.880 --> 00:27:48.400 You can't do German classes anymore. 00:27:48.560 --> 00:27:49.880 Lutherans were struck. 00:27:50.760 --> 00:27:53.840 You know, Scandinavians could not do any more Scandinavian services. 00:27:54.780 --> 00:27:57.440 Japanese could not do any more Japanese churches and services. 00:27:57.580 --> 00:27:58.820 All of that went and went and changed. 00:27:59.220 --> 00:28:04.020 So these waves, because most of the people who are arriving in America are still Christians. 00:28:04.120 --> 00:28:05.100 75% are Christians. 00:28:05.940 --> 00:28:07.800 But they come from different parts of the world. 00:28:08.160 --> 00:28:10.620 And they bring their distinctive Christianity from there. 00:28:10.620 --> 00:28:15.320 So Koreans have come and planted 6,000 churches in the last 50 years. 00:28:16.140 --> 00:28:17.400 It's a significant movement. 00:28:18.620 --> 00:28:24.520 And since the new administration came on board, president, we had what? 00:28:24.580 --> 00:28:28.420 11 million Latinos have been inducted into North America. 00:28:29.340 --> 00:28:30.580 They have been normalized. 00:28:31.280 --> 00:28:32.180 What that means? 00:28:32.260 --> 00:28:36.960 11 million Christians, maybe 10 and a half million are evangelical charismatic Christians. 00:28:38.500 --> 00:28:42.740 So, you know, the Latino, you know, Hispanic church in America will be what? 00:28:42.780 --> 00:28:43.420 60 million. 00:28:44.080 --> 00:28:45.280 That may be the largest sector. 00:28:46.200 --> 00:28:50.580 We may soon all be speaking Spanish in the church circles than English. 00:28:51.860 --> 00:28:56.240 They may not write asthma theology books, but they'll have thriving local congregations. 00:28:58.000 --> 00:29:00.000 So, you know, Indians have come and built what? 00:29:00.000 --> 00:29:02.780 You know, our community probably 1,500 churches now. 00:29:02.920 --> 00:29:03.780 1,600 or so. 00:29:04.540 --> 00:29:06.460 Chinese have around 1,500 churches. 00:29:07.240 --> 00:29:09.280 Vietnamese and Koreans and all of this. 00:29:09.660 --> 00:29:19.040 When all of these various streams comes and starts intermingling, it creates new synergy and dynamism within the North American church. 00:29:20.980 --> 00:29:25.880 So, there is a sociologist here in Chicago, you know, UIC in a big school here. 00:29:27.240 --> 00:29:34.700 He says, immigrants are not de-Christianizing America, but they're de-Europeanizing American Christianity. 00:29:35.780 --> 00:29:41.980 I would say that, you know, kind of, not to kind of, be grateful for the European wave. 00:29:42.560 --> 00:29:45.480 European Americans have been very globally engaged. 00:29:45.900 --> 00:29:49.500 And that was as a result of the global engagement that happened here. 00:29:49.920 --> 00:29:52.120 America is the most global place in the world. 00:29:53.060 --> 00:29:55.220 It has always been welcoming to immigrants. 00:29:55.640 --> 00:30:04.060 Because by virtue of welcoming immigrants, American Christianity is always so dynamic and always in the remaking of it, of itself. 00:30:05.280 --> 00:30:09.320 So, I recall Stephen, Stephen Warner, that sociologist's name is Stephen Warner. 00:30:09.640 --> 00:30:14.620 I rephrase it saying that diaspora communities are globalizing American Christianity. 00:30:15.880 --> 00:30:20.000 And more global we are, more globally relevant we will be. 00:30:21.140 --> 00:30:24.240 Because we do have those connections for the rest of the world. 00:30:24.880 --> 00:30:26.320 Germany cannot talk about it. 00:30:26.660 --> 00:30:28.080 England probably to some extent. 00:30:28.660 --> 00:30:29.920 Korea cannot talk about it. 00:30:30.720 --> 00:30:38.620 Neither can, you know, France talk about having a truly global church in their own geographical, you know, nation, geopolitical entity. 00:30:39.000 --> 00:30:40.980 But North American church is the most global church. 00:30:41.740 --> 00:30:43.600 That is a power of the North American church. 00:30:44.360 --> 00:30:49.580 Because it has brought in the streams from Korea, the spirituality, the prayer culture. 00:30:50.080 --> 00:30:51.400 It has brought in the Africans. 00:30:51.680 --> 00:30:54.440 It has brought in the Brazilian Pentecostal spirit. 00:30:54.920 --> 00:30:58.200 It has brought in the, you know, Mexicans and the Guatemalans. 00:30:58.200 --> 00:31:02.820 It has brought in the Koreans and the Chinese and the Indians and the Sri Lankans. 00:31:02.960 --> 00:31:08.220 And all of that is mixing together and interacting with each other. 00:31:08.700 --> 00:31:12.760 And that creates an amazing energy and passion for the Christianity. 00:31:13.500 --> 00:31:15.300 Just yesterday, last question. 00:31:15.460 --> 00:31:17.820 I'm intrigued and we can move on. 00:31:18.020 --> 00:31:25.980 But just yesterday I saw an article from Christianity Today talking about the struggle of multicultural church. 00:31:26.380 --> 00:31:34.840 You know, you're talking about, hey, basically American church needs to listen more and allow more voices to come in. 00:31:36.140 --> 00:31:42.060 You know, the de-Europeanizing of the American church and letting others continue to contribute to it. 00:31:43.320 --> 00:31:52.280 Do you see, I'm just curious because here in Miami, yeah, we're already like Hispanic all over the place. 00:31:53.140 --> 00:32:03.080 And so a lot of the, well, where Brent's at or people in like the Midwest, some of my coworkers are like, yeah, race is really a problem. 00:32:03.700 --> 00:32:09.980 Honestly, I don't necessarily feel that as much because Miami, my community is so multicultural from the get-go. 00:32:11.200 --> 00:32:26.240 I'm just curious, how much of that race, do you see that playing a part in it with the U.S. church now where they're not, they're struggling to listen to let some of the other cultures in? 00:32:26.760 --> 00:32:32.120 You know, we're reading books of like White Awake where the white culture is predominant and it rules over everything. 00:32:32.320 --> 00:32:33.940 Sam, obviously you're not a white man. 00:32:34.380 --> 00:32:39.500 So like how do you read or influence that even culturally within the church? 00:32:39.500 --> 00:32:52.580 I think, you know, we need to see, I mean, you know, I mean, say all the way from 16th century to 20th century, early 1900, what, 300 years or so, most of the Christians lived in Europe. 00:32:53.580 --> 00:33:00.260 And much of the 16th, 17th, 18th century migration that shaped America also came from the dominant Christian. 00:33:01.020 --> 00:33:04.160 So where Christianity grows, it pushes its people out. 00:33:04.760 --> 00:33:05.640 You become missionary. 00:33:07.000 --> 00:33:09.820 So 15 million Europeans migrated out of Europe. 00:33:10.220 --> 00:33:11.180 They went all over the world. 00:33:12.140 --> 00:33:13.620 They made Christianity look European. 00:33:15.380 --> 00:33:17.900 It is the growth of Christianity that pushes out. 00:33:18.240 --> 00:33:23.380 It is not the migrant, economic, social, economic realities is only one causative factor. 00:33:24.460 --> 00:33:27.080 But where Christianity, Christian people become mobile people. 00:33:28.080 --> 00:33:29.600 They say if you are Christian, you will travel. 00:33:30.160 --> 00:33:31.540 And if you travel, you will become Christian. 00:33:32.380 --> 00:33:40.700 Because once when European post-reformation, post-reformation, amazing growth of Christianity in Europe and people were pushed out. 00:33:40.960 --> 00:33:42.300 They started exploring new lands. 00:33:42.300 --> 00:33:49.600 You know, their sense of adventure, you know, conquered the seas, British conquered, Portuguese, Spanish, conquered the sea. 00:33:50.340 --> 00:33:53.020 That spirit of adventure and exploring land. 00:33:53.180 --> 00:33:54.340 Because this is God's land. 00:33:54.400 --> 00:33:55.180 You can go anywhere. 00:33:56.060 --> 00:33:57.640 That spirit comes from Christian ethics. 00:33:58.980 --> 00:34:00.640 You are not bound to a land. 00:34:00.720 --> 00:34:05.140 You are not captivated and trapped, imprisoned to a geography or a culture anymore. 00:34:06.420 --> 00:34:08.540 It gives a spirit of exploring. 00:34:08.840 --> 00:34:15.940 All of that Christian, European gain in science and technology that Indians did not, Arabs did not do it. 00:34:16.460 --> 00:34:17.260 Why it came? 00:34:17.320 --> 00:34:18.600 Because of the Christian mindset. 00:34:19.760 --> 00:34:22.000 And they started exploring and they conquered the world. 00:34:22.100 --> 00:34:24.560 British conquered the world, conquered the sea, conquered the world. 00:34:26.100 --> 00:34:28.700 100 years ago, they said sun never sets on the British Empire. 00:34:29.760 --> 00:34:32.260 I'm presenting a paper next week at the UK. 00:34:32.940 --> 00:34:34.000 I'm saying that 100 years. 00:34:34.280 --> 00:34:36.960 Now we say sun never sets on the Indian diaspora. 00:34:38.600 --> 00:34:40.380 Indians are there in every country of the world. 00:34:40.760 --> 00:34:42.440 It's the most dispersed diaspora now. 00:34:43.520 --> 00:34:45.540 And so I'm picking up on British, you know. 00:34:45.640 --> 00:34:49.300 I mean, you know, British have this, you know, kind of sense that sun never sets on the British Empire. 00:34:49.580 --> 00:34:52.600 Of course, this, you know, empire is set and empire is closed down. 00:34:53.280 --> 00:34:55.820 But the thing is, the idea that British were all over the world. 00:34:56.540 --> 00:35:02.160 And then that American, you know, era in the late post-World War, America's presence was global. 00:35:02.560 --> 00:35:05.960 As a global economy, power, control, economy, all of that rose. 00:35:06.700 --> 00:35:08.480 So now look at where Christianity is. 00:35:09.420 --> 00:35:16.420 There are 700 million in sub-Saharan Africa, 600 million in Latin America, and 500 million in Asia. 00:35:17.100 --> 00:35:17.780 They're going to move. 00:35:18.380 --> 00:35:22.540 They're going to go wherever opportunity exists, wherever they can study, wherever they can get married. 00:35:22.540 --> 00:35:23.820 And live comfortably. 00:35:24.860 --> 00:35:26.000 And so they will move. 00:35:26.960 --> 00:35:34.800 And because of the economy and because of the legal structures and America's populations will decline, will become more and more dependent. 00:35:35.860 --> 00:35:39.880 And, you know, so the race card is an important card, but we need to understand from a global church. 00:35:40.460 --> 00:35:46.020 Because Christianity is currently a typical Christian in the world is a black female, an African female. 00:35:47.840 --> 00:35:49.100 So it has already shifted. 00:35:49.100 --> 00:35:52.040 It's called the shifting of the center of gravity of Christianity. 00:35:52.540 --> 00:35:53.900 It is in the global south now. 00:35:54.860 --> 00:35:56.400 So they will push people out. 00:35:57.300 --> 00:36:01.300 So Africa's massive amount of migration is happening, Christians coming to Europe. 00:36:02.980 --> 00:36:07.520 Because Christianity has already been identified as a black man's religion in England now. 00:36:08.440 --> 00:36:13.360 Because most people who go to church on a Sunday morning are black people. 00:36:15.760 --> 00:36:21.580 The largest church in London, in Leicester, in Manchester, in Birmingham are all led by black people. 00:36:22.580 --> 00:36:26.220 Largest church in France, largest church in Germany, largest church in all of Europe. 00:36:26.760 --> 00:36:29.940 It's in Kiev, in Ukraine, all led by black Africans. 00:36:31.820 --> 00:36:33.240 Africa is a missionary force. 00:36:34.080 --> 00:36:40.800 If there are 700 million, millions and millions of churches in every country, they're going to send missionaries out. 00:36:41.340 --> 00:36:42.200 They will become mobile. 00:36:42.920 --> 00:36:47.660 So migration is what makes nations, makes economies, makes churches. 00:36:47.980 --> 00:36:49.920 All of that is a result of movement of people. 00:36:50.700 --> 00:36:53.480 And movement of people goes back to a God who is on the move. 00:36:54.080 --> 00:36:55.380 He makes his people move. 00:36:55.920 --> 00:36:57.620 Because we are created to move. 00:36:58.860 --> 00:36:59.820 I move. 00:37:00.040 --> 00:37:01.600 I am because I move. 00:37:02.640 --> 00:37:04.700 You know, they say, I think, therefore I am. 00:37:05.000 --> 00:37:07.340 I say, I move, therefore I am. 00:37:07.560 --> 00:37:11.980 I understand my identity at the very core of who I am because I'm made to move. 00:37:13.900 --> 00:37:17.260 So race is an issue because we'll see more intermingling. 00:37:18.320 --> 00:37:24.880 America will see more people from Latin America, Africa, and Asia coming to America in order to sustain its economy. 00:37:25.540 --> 00:37:29.920 In order to keep it as a democratic, fair, freedom-loving people. 00:37:30.720 --> 00:37:32.360 But it'll also move to other places. 00:37:33.300 --> 00:37:34.300 Places like Korea. 00:37:35.000 --> 00:37:36.240 Places like Portugal. 00:37:36.640 --> 00:37:37.800 Places like Spain. 00:37:38.540 --> 00:37:42.420 These three countries in the next 30 years, their population will become half. 00:37:44.700 --> 00:37:49.800 How do you sustain a vibrant economy like South Korea if their population has become half? 00:37:51.300 --> 00:37:52.160 Also Singapore. 00:37:52.800 --> 00:37:53.820 These are the four countries. 00:37:54.800 --> 00:38:02.680 So when population kind of, you know, kind of completely compresses and economy is, you know, has to be sustained, 00:38:02.680 --> 00:38:04.740 it'll suck people in from other places. 00:38:06.000 --> 00:38:08.180 So from Southeast Asia, massive migration. 00:38:08.500 --> 00:38:11.800 We are talking about 30, 40 million people moving into South Korea. 00:38:13.420 --> 00:38:13.800 Spain. 00:38:13.800 --> 00:38:19.660 A large number of people from Venezuela and Latin America and Central America is going to go to Spain. 00:38:20.840 --> 00:38:22.800 Of course, a lot of them will come to North America too. 00:38:23.540 --> 00:38:25.640 So look at those population shifts. 00:38:26.120 --> 00:38:28.860 Massive human displacement will happen in the next 30 years. 00:38:30.080 --> 00:38:38.460 Then the next thing that I would look for is, you know, highways and, you know, why so many Jewish Christians move to all over the Mediterranean world. 00:38:39.280 --> 00:38:41.960 So in the first century, it is often said as Roman roads. 00:38:43.160 --> 00:38:44.920 Rome built the road in order to keep the peace. 00:38:45.040 --> 00:38:45.640 Pax Romana. 00:38:46.580 --> 00:38:54.840 If you have traveled in the Mediterranean Rim, North Africa and, you know, Eastern, you know, Eastern Palestine and, you know, Syria and Lebanon and Turkey. 00:38:54.840 --> 00:39:00.020 We understand how church came because persecution, Christianity grew in Jerusalem. 00:39:00.720 --> 00:39:01.580 Persecution came. 00:39:02.340 --> 00:39:04.520 They just fled wherever the road could go to take them. 00:39:05.520 --> 00:39:06.580 And that's why Christianity. 00:39:06.800 --> 00:39:11.740 So you're looking at the Jewish diaspora helped us to locate where the church was moving. 00:39:12.840 --> 00:39:17.460 So that becomes the foundation for establishment of the first century, by the end of first century. 00:39:17.820 --> 00:39:24.380 Church was all over North Africa and all over, all over the, all over the Asia Minor, which is Turkey and, you know, Greece and Rome. 00:39:25.120 --> 00:39:31.560 So that is the, so if you want to see the trajectory where Christianity is growing, look at the diasporic movement. 00:39:32.800 --> 00:39:36.620 So, for example, one example that I give you is I, you know, tell a story. 00:39:38.220 --> 00:39:46.460 I was in Berlin in 2018, Central Station, Berlin, you know, amazing city, vibrant gem. 00:39:46.540 --> 00:39:48.100 So I was involved with some refugee. 00:39:48.240 --> 00:39:49.280 I did a book on refugees. 00:39:49.420 --> 00:39:50.380 I was doing some research. 00:39:51.160 --> 00:39:57.820 And so I was staying with this German pastor and we're saying that, oh, you know, he said, oh, you know, let's take a detour before going to church. 00:39:57.880 --> 00:40:00.300 I want you to take you to a train station. 00:40:01.600 --> 00:40:03.140 I said, where, which station? 00:40:03.200 --> 00:40:04.420 I said, we are already running late. 00:40:04.520 --> 00:40:07.400 There are some refugee ministry leaders are coming to meet us at the church. 00:40:07.620 --> 00:40:08.700 Let's just go straight. 00:40:08.840 --> 00:40:10.040 I don't need to see a station. 00:40:10.460 --> 00:40:12.260 I've taken train from Berlin Station. 00:40:12.900 --> 00:40:13.960 I live in Chicago. 00:40:14.120 --> 00:40:16.520 I take the Metra, go to the city and airport. 00:40:17.200 --> 00:40:21.240 I've gone on bullet trains in France and Japan and I don't need to see another train. 00:40:21.580 --> 00:40:22.980 But this is a very important train. 00:40:23.040 --> 00:40:27.060 I want you to see this train in his broken mix of English and German. 00:40:27.140 --> 00:40:27.900 He's trying to communicate. 00:40:28.020 --> 00:40:28.860 My German is bad. 00:40:29.080 --> 00:40:30.040 His English is bad. 00:40:30.300 --> 00:40:31.400 We are trying to talk to each other. 00:40:32.280 --> 00:40:33.860 And then I said, okay, I obliged. 00:40:34.000 --> 00:40:35.520 Finally, I couldn't persuade him enough. 00:40:35.760 --> 00:40:40.140 And he takes me to the Berlin Central Station and, you know, takes me to the platform. 00:40:40.360 --> 00:40:42.140 And I see the first train pulling in. 00:40:42.720 --> 00:40:49.320 This train is the first train to arrive from Beijing, Beijing, China, to Berlin, Germany. 00:40:49.900 --> 00:40:50.560 First train. 00:40:52.100 --> 00:40:57.200 Now, this is part of the one belt, one road policy, if you've been following what is happening in China. 00:40:58.020 --> 00:41:03.400 Last 20 to 30 years, China built more high-speed rail than the rest of the world put together. 00:41:04.580 --> 00:41:07.280 It's wired and networked across the country. 00:41:07.360 --> 00:41:09.820 Now they're extending the train all the way to Europe. 00:41:09.820 --> 00:41:21.660 So, 2017 also marked first train arriving in, say, you know, in Madrid, in Italy, in France, in Netherlands, and in London. 00:41:22.540 --> 00:41:26.860 Train all the way from eastern coast of Asia to the western end of Europe. 00:41:27.500 --> 00:41:28.180 Trains are running. 00:41:29.200 --> 00:41:35.440 So, now the explosive growth of Christianity in China, we're talking about 250 million Christians or so in China alone. 00:41:36.000 --> 00:41:39.860 In another 10 years, by the end of this decade, China may be the most Christian country in the world. 00:41:41.800 --> 00:41:42.800 And persecution. 00:41:43.880 --> 00:41:46.660 Growth of Christianity, persecution, what are they going to do? 00:41:46.860 --> 00:41:48.700 They're going to take the train and go where the train goes. 00:41:50.120 --> 00:41:51.880 Much like the Roman road in the first century. 00:41:53.180 --> 00:41:58.300 So, this will bring, a migration scholar in Oxford tells me that around 100 million Chinese will go. 00:41:59.420 --> 00:42:04.000 So, Central Europe, Central Asia, and Middle East. 00:42:05.020 --> 00:42:07.840 And 85 million of them will be Christians. 00:42:10.400 --> 00:42:15.060 Talk about, we need around 25,000 churches in Germany alone in the next 30 years. 00:42:16.760 --> 00:42:19.080 If this many Christians are going to land up in Germany. 00:42:20.120 --> 00:42:22.040 Trains are coming every day. 00:42:22.780 --> 00:42:24.200 Somebody is going to come on those trains. 00:42:25.200 --> 00:42:27.580 It will revive Christianity in Germany. 00:42:28.420 --> 00:42:29.980 But it will look European. 00:42:30.320 --> 00:42:31.460 It won't look like Martin Luther. 00:42:32.580 --> 00:42:33.860 I mean, it will look like Chinese. 00:42:34.300 --> 00:42:36.080 Not like Europeans like Martin Luther. 00:42:37.500 --> 00:42:39.860 So, the face of Christianity is changing. 00:42:40.720 --> 00:42:44.620 It will change from a European face, a Caucasian face. 00:42:44.680 --> 00:42:46.360 I'm not kind of putting down any of you. 00:42:46.800 --> 00:42:49.100 I just love you brothers in Christ. 00:42:49.100 --> 00:42:53.860 But the idea of that, the very face of Christianity is changing before our eyes. 00:42:54.580 --> 00:42:57.520 It is an exciting time for the 21st century Christianity. 00:42:58.300 --> 00:43:01.320 It will become more global than ever in the history of the church. 00:43:02.460 --> 00:43:04.520 Yeah, it will be really interesting. 00:43:04.900 --> 00:43:12.560 I mean, if a global train going from China to Europe is going to affect what the church is going to look like. 00:43:13.040 --> 00:43:16.920 When we really look at digital, what is digital going to do to shape that? 00:43:17.320 --> 00:43:22.980 Digital infrastructure, physical infrastructure will be defining things for the century. 00:43:23.500 --> 00:43:25.220 How church will happen. 00:43:25.220 --> 00:43:27.040 Look at infrastructure. 00:43:27.240 --> 00:43:28.920 Closely monitor infrastructure. 00:43:29.440 --> 00:43:34.260 And I'm talking to somebody at the Spacelink, Tesla's space company. 00:43:34.800 --> 00:43:36.260 They sent 2,000 satellites. 00:43:37.520 --> 00:43:40.120 We're going to get wired like unlike anything. 00:43:41.180 --> 00:43:43.120 It's going to happen in the next few years. 00:43:43.560 --> 00:43:48.940 He's already started subscription, broadband, 100 mbps, connectivity, every home. 00:43:49.900 --> 00:43:52.200 This is going to link the world together. 00:43:52.840 --> 00:43:55.720 You can pastor a congregation all over the globe. 00:43:56.400 --> 00:43:57.520 Every time zone. 00:43:58.200 --> 00:44:00.940 You're not limited by geography and time anymore. 00:44:01.660 --> 00:44:02.780 We've been liberated. 00:44:03.580 --> 00:44:05.560 Man, I tell you what, was that good? 00:44:06.220 --> 00:44:14.020 The potential for digital, in my mind, has skyrocketed off of this conversation. 00:44:14.200 --> 00:44:22.560 You see, honestly, and I do mean this, I feel like I had a very small perspective of what digital needed to be. 00:44:22.700 --> 00:44:26.540 Yes, digital can help create new ecclesias. 00:44:26.540 --> 00:44:34.260 Yes, digital can help with evangelism and get new people connected who would not normally connect. 00:44:35.100 --> 00:44:42.760 I did not put together this idea of digital can bring different cultures together. 00:44:43.060 --> 00:44:50.000 And with those cultures, with those influences, can really restore the church. 00:44:50.720 --> 00:44:51.940 I do believe this. 00:44:51.940 --> 00:44:54.440 Sam George has said it multiple times now. 00:44:55.060 --> 00:45:02.200 If you want to better understand the book of Acts, go live in China for six months. 00:45:02.480 --> 00:45:04.540 Go live in India for six weeks. 00:45:05.160 --> 00:45:09.220 My life, I've done a lot of ministry in Ukraine and in Russia. 00:45:09.380 --> 00:45:14.340 And I see that in the lives of the people who are there. 00:45:15.220 --> 00:45:20.300 What do we need to learn as a church, as a North American church? 00:45:20.980 --> 00:45:28.180 What do we need to learn from the Russias, from the Ukraines, from the Chinas, from the Indias? 00:45:29.320 --> 00:45:39.740 And how can digital help us connect to those influences so that we can learn them for the betterment, for the completion of our North American churches? 00:45:40.580 --> 00:45:54.520 You see, it's not just an opportunity for us to tell people, it's an opportunity for us to influence us so that we can better understand who Jesus is. 00:45:54.920 --> 00:45:56.160 And this is the takeaway of digital. 00:45:56.160 --> 00:46:01.600 And I hope this is the thing that is changing your worldview today. 00:46:01.880 --> 00:46:12.520 Hey, this is just the start of many, many conversations, hopefully to come, talking about how digital can reshape your church's worldview. 00:46:12.900 --> 00:46:13.840 So check it out. 00:46:13.960 --> 00:46:20.740 We will be hanging out on Clubhouse this Thursday, talking about this and other topics. 00:46:20.860 --> 00:46:27.920 We will be on Clubhouse, 5 o'clock Eastern, for a lot of the weeks moving forward. 00:46:28.020 --> 00:46:29.320 Some of you don't have Clubhouse. 00:46:30.180 --> 00:46:30.620 Sorry. 00:46:31.100 --> 00:46:31.940 I've got invites. 00:46:32.060 --> 00:46:36.640 Feel free to message me directly or email me, jeff at thechurch.digital. 00:46:36.640 --> 00:46:40.680 And I can hopefully get you connected with some invites if you would like to take part. 00:46:40.980 --> 00:46:48.240 If you're not able to get onto the platform for whatever reason, Android users, I'm sorry, we're going to go ahead and record it. 00:46:48.300 --> 00:46:54.900 We'll probably make conversations available on social media and podcasts as available. 00:46:55.400 --> 00:47:00.740 But hey, let's unpack this in the coming weeks and months ahead. 00:47:00.740 --> 00:47:09.120 Hit us up on social media, hang out with us in Clubhouse, and let's start to unravel maybe what our church needs to learn 00:47:09.120 --> 00:47:14.720 and how our church can learn utilizing some of these digital tools and resources. 00:47:14.960 --> 00:47:15.860 Love the conversation. 00:47:16.160 --> 00:47:21.440 Four, for Brent, for Sam George, this is Jeff with the Church Digital and Stadia Church Planning. 00:47:21.560 --> 00:47:24.680 Thanks for joining us for the pod today, and we'll see you next time here at the show. 00:47:24.940 --> 00:47:25.420 Y'all have a good day.