WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:03.380 Hey, we're going to get you to that podcast in one second, but before we get there, I, 00:00:03.580 --> 00:00:08.160 Jeff Reed, the Church Digital, Stadia Church Planning, I wanted to have a conversation with 00:00:08.160 --> 00:00:13.180 you, churches that are out there. One of the greatest things I arguably think that I've done 00:00:13.180 --> 00:00:17.300 in my life, other than married and kids, okay, that aside, one of the greatest ministry things 00:00:17.300 --> 00:00:21.800 I've ever done is this idea of the fidgetal learning communities that we are offering 00:00:21.800 --> 00:00:27.320 through Stadia Church Planning. We want to help you. We want to help your church learn to thrive, 00:00:27.320 --> 00:00:34.340 grow, and multiply fidgetally, physically, as well as digitally. We've seen about 200 churches go 00:00:34.340 --> 00:00:40.340 through this already, and it's been a phenomenal result of it. Culture is changing within these 00:00:40.340 --> 00:00:46.080 churches. They're understanding what it is to thrive. They're understanding how to grow people, 00:00:46.220 --> 00:00:52.500 how to grow their church, even in the midst of this COVID, not COVID, wherever we are in the season, 00:00:52.500 --> 00:00:59.520 and they're even starting to understand what it means to multiply in fidgetal space. There's no secret 00:00:59.520 --> 00:01:05.760 sauce to doing a digital strategy. There's no secret sauce to doing a fidgetal strategy. There's no 00:01:05.760 --> 00:01:11.660 secret sauce to making your church thrive, grow, and multiply. It takes work. I'm not going to lie, 00:01:11.840 --> 00:01:15.180 but through the framework, through the questions, through the learning communities, 00:01:15.180 --> 00:01:21.920 we connect you with churches. We give you some content. We coach you along the way to help you 00:01:21.920 --> 00:01:28.860 make the decisions that you need to make so that your church's strategy can thrive, grow, and multiply 00:01:28.860 --> 00:01:35.280 your church along the way. This is a great opportunity for your church. We would love to have you be a part 00:01:35.280 --> 00:01:40.920 of it. For more information, check out stadiachurchplanning.org slash fidgetal. 00:01:41.020 --> 00:01:49.580 Stadiachurchplanning.org slash fidgetal. P-H-Y-G-I-T-A-L. All right. Hey, that's it. We're 00:01:49.580 --> 00:01:53.580 going to get you back to that episode right now. All right. I'm going to be up front here. I've been 00:01:53.580 --> 00:01:59.300 convicted in my life here as it comes to this podcast. You see, we bring all sorts of people on 00:01:59.300 --> 00:02:04.860 this all the time, all sorts of guest lists. Very rarely in my life have I actually ever been told 00:02:04.860 --> 00:02:09.380 no. Most people, the majority by far, when I invite somebody onto the podcast, they're willing 00:02:09.380 --> 00:02:16.340 to come. But what's interesting is we've really never delved into millennials or even Gen Z, 00:02:16.420 --> 00:02:21.220 maybe a couple. There's a couple of them around, the Jates, the Daniel Ahrens. But I've really been 00:02:21.220 --> 00:02:26.260 convicted recently to say, hey, well, let's bring some younger voices. Let's bring some different 00:02:26.260 --> 00:02:30.300 perspectives in here. There are some things that happened in 2020 when it comes to the millennials. 00:02:30.500 --> 00:02:35.820 We've talked about the digital evangelism report coming out of Barna a lot. We're also, Barna has 00:02:35.820 --> 00:02:42.080 done some research towards 50% of millennials are now saying that the word evangelism is bad and don't 00:02:42.080 --> 00:02:47.120 recognize how to do evangelism within the church. And this is a problem. This is definitely a problem 00:02:47.120 --> 00:02:52.800 that we should be addressing. And rather than me being the 43-year-old church staffer and pastor 00:02:52.800 --> 00:02:57.440 that I am, I don't know that I want to solve that problem or more accurately, I don't know that I 00:02:57.440 --> 00:03:04.300 can solve that problem. So for me, I want to start to bring in some voices. Maybe that can speak some 00:03:04.300 --> 00:03:12.440 wisdom into this and learn, take a posture, create an atmosphere for learning here. And so first off in 00:03:12.440 --> 00:03:20.160 this conversation, I'm bringing in Clavan Pavilion. Now Clavan is Canadian. Like this is an incredible 00:03:20.160 --> 00:03:27.520 conversation. I'm bringing in a millennial from Canada who works as a communications manager at an 00:03:27.520 --> 00:03:34.580 Anglican church. So we are going Anglican here learning about and talking about church online. Like 00:03:34.580 --> 00:03:39.280 this is crazy. Clavan published an article. You can find it in the show notes, but centered around these 00:03:39.280 --> 00:03:46.140 digital campfires, these ways that we can create and connect in community digitally. An excellent article. 00:03:46.560 --> 00:03:51.040 Number three, we'll get to it in the podcast. Number three challenged me as a person. Hey, these are 00:03:51.040 --> 00:03:56.540 things that we need to do better. So it's a great article to dive into. And Clavan's got a great 00:03:56.540 --> 00:04:02.420 perspective. We talk about our article, which is good. We also dive into this idea of, okay, I don't know 00:04:02.420 --> 00:04:08.020 that you can speak for your generation, Clavan, but what does evangelism look like for you? What are you 00:04:08.020 --> 00:04:13.640 comfortable with? How can we get you on mission? What does that even mean? And so this is the heart 00:04:13.640 --> 00:04:18.200 of this conversation. Yeah, we're talking digital church, church online. We're talking digital community, 00:04:18.360 --> 00:04:26.120 digital discipleship, but really the heart of this gets down to this idea of millennials, evangelism, 00:04:26.180 --> 00:04:33.020 and church online. So we're bringing in Clavan once again from Canada, as well as Ray D'Armas, 00:04:33.120 --> 00:04:38.900 a digital pastor at Christ Fellowship Miami in a conversation that I'm calling once again, 00:04:39.000 --> 00:04:44.220 millennials, evangelism and church online. Okay, everybody, here you go. 00:04:44.900 --> 00:04:51.860 Yeah. So my name is Clavan Prevalon. I'm 26 and I'm up here in Toronto. I'm currently the 00:04:51.860 --> 00:04:57.600 communications manager at St. Paul's Bloor Street, which is an Anglican church. And how I kind of, 00:04:57.800 --> 00:05:04.680 I've kind of got here is, you know, I grew up Christian. I went to a Catholic school. I was 00:05:04.680 --> 00:05:12.260 confirmed in a grade eight. And then, yeah, I went to Catholic high school as well. And then, you know, 00:05:12.280 --> 00:05:17.820 I went to university and, you know, I think in university, everyone kind of wanders away. But then 00:05:17.820 --> 00:05:23.440 when I was finishing university, I took the alpha course and it was the second time I took the alpha 00:05:23.440 --> 00:05:29.240 course. The first time I took it was actually before I got confirmed in grade eight. And so now 00:05:29.240 --> 00:05:35.040 when I was taking it the second time after university, this was in 2017, I just remember, 00:05:35.200 --> 00:05:41.780 you know, just, you know, wanting to, you know, get back into, you know, my faith and wanting to just 00:05:41.780 --> 00:05:46.680 really like connect with Jesus. And I remember praying, you know, Jesus, like, I just, I really want you 00:05:46.680 --> 00:05:51.600 to be my friend and I was, you know, learning about the Holy spirit. And so it was just, it was, 00:05:51.700 --> 00:05:59.900 it was a really good, I think, way to refresh my faith. And so I had done in university, I studied 00:05:59.900 --> 00:06:06.260 communications. I fell in love with communications and I always tell people that I think God had a 00:06:06.260 --> 00:06:11.600 sense of humor because I was applying for jobs and I was hearing back from different, from different 00:06:11.600 --> 00:06:17.800 jobs. But I, I feel like God was like, okay, you like communication so much, come and do it for me. 00:06:18.120 --> 00:06:24.820 So I, I applied for this, I applied for this communications coordinator job at St. Paul's and 00:06:24.820 --> 00:06:31.100 I heard back from them and it was kind of a funny story too, because they had, they had contacted me 00:06:31.100 --> 00:06:35.200 and they were like, how did you hear about this job? And I was like, I just applied through LinkedIn. 00:06:35.620 --> 00:06:39.880 And they said, Oh, cause you know, we took the job posting down like over a month ago. And I was 00:06:39.880 --> 00:06:47.220 like, well, I, I applied. And so I had the interview and I was hired and I started, uh, November 1st, 00:06:47.220 --> 00:06:53.680 2017. And then a month and a half later, I was promoted to communications manager. And since then, 00:06:53.680 --> 00:06:59.800 um, I've been working at St. Paul's and I do communications. So, um, I've kind of led St. Paul's 00:06:59.800 --> 00:07:06.260 through, um, a website rebrand, a website redesign. Um, you know, they didn't have Instagram when I 00:07:06.260 --> 00:07:13.160 started, so launched an Instagram account. Um, and so I oversee, you know, email, social media, uh, 00:07:13.280 --> 00:07:18.960 just all things communications. And I'm a team of one. So, um, it's, it's, it's going to be difficult, 00:07:18.960 --> 00:07:23.400 but that's kind of where I am right now. And even though I work in Anglican church, 00:07:23.400 --> 00:07:29.780 I go to a Baptist church. So I raised Catholic, work in Anglican church, go to a Baptist church. 00:07:29.940 --> 00:07:35.500 So kind of all over. Um, but I think in like the time that I've been working at St. Paul's, 00:07:35.500 --> 00:07:42.620 I've just really developed like a heart and a passion for like social media and like using it for like 00:07:42.620 --> 00:07:48.060 discipleship and digital ministry. And I always just think that like the church has the best message 00:07:48.060 --> 00:07:53.740 in the world. And like, you know, the fact that, you know, there's all these cool platforms and just, 00:07:53.920 --> 00:07:58.820 you can use those to, to, to connect with people and connect them to Jesus, but connect them to also 00:07:58.820 --> 00:08:05.080 with each other. Um, and I just get excited about that, about digital discipleship and online ministry. 00:08:05.080 --> 00:08:08.060 And so, um, that's kind of, yeah, my story. 00:08:08.720 --> 00:08:15.680 That's awesome. I love this. I love the idea of, um, social media with an Anglican church. Honestly, 00:08:15.680 --> 00:08:20.960 I think this may be the first Anglican we've had on the podcast. I'm Ray. I'm just going back through. 00:08:20.960 --> 00:08:25.540 I don't, I can't think of, of any others that, that may have been, maybe, maybe I have no idea 00:08:25.540 --> 00:08:31.080 actually what Stephen Fogg is. So that may be the answer over there, but kind of love your heart and 00:08:31.080 --> 00:08:37.420 some of the story behind you now getting into, uh, up in, in Toronto where, where you live and doing 00:08:37.420 --> 00:08:42.760 ministry up in that area. So, uh, Clavan, I ran into you, at least in, in, in social media, 00:08:42.760 --> 00:08:47.740 in, in, in a Facebook group, uh, you posted an article and we'll put it in the show notes here, 00:08:47.740 --> 00:08:54.340 um, talking about our digital campfires, part of your church's strategy. And, and to me, 00:08:54.360 --> 00:08:58.520 it caught my eye cause I'm like, what's a digital campfire. And then as I was reading in and digging 00:08:58.520 --> 00:09:04.620 into kind of what your approach is and kind of the intentionality that, that you're bringing in 00:09:04.620 --> 00:09:10.040 towards a digital ministry, it was, was kind of, uh, eyeopening for me at, at someone at such a 00:09:10.040 --> 00:09:14.180 young age had so much clarity towards us. So, uh, and by the way, we didn't, I don't think you said 00:09:14.180 --> 00:09:19.960 this year, 26, 26. Yeah. So do you, by the way, before we get to the article, do you consider 00:09:19.960 --> 00:09:24.100 yourself a, cause that's right on the line, right? Between millennial and Gen Z. 00:09:24.100 --> 00:09:29.920 Gen Z, Gen Z, Gen Z, yeah. Um, yeah. It's funny cause sometimes I'm like, oh, that's very, 00:09:30.020 --> 00:09:33.600 like I'll do something or think something. I'm like, it's very Gen Z of me. And other times I'm like, 00:09:33.640 --> 00:09:38.700 oh no, like I'm a millennial. I think I generally lump myself in with millennials, 00:09:38.700 --> 00:09:42.660 but I'm definitely, I'm like one of the, like the youngest millennials I'd say. Yeah. 00:09:43.340 --> 00:09:46.840 Good, good to know. Okay. So let's talk. It's funny. We'll come back to the whole millennial 00:09:46.840 --> 00:09:52.280 thing here in a little bit. I'm always interested in talking with a millennial and trying to understand 00:09:52.280 --> 00:09:58.560 their worldview, their, their perspective that better on some, I'm actually like, uh, the oldest 00:09:58.560 --> 00:10:03.080 scale on the millennial. And I'm like, I don't consider myself a millennial at all. So we'd love 00:10:03.080 --> 00:10:06.720 to kind of understand more of that, but let's talk here about, about some of the, uh, the, 00:10:06.800 --> 00:10:13.380 the article. So like explain to the, the audience and refresh my memory here. Um, a digital campfire, 00:10:13.380 --> 00:10:17.980 like what, what do you specifically mean in context when you're talking about a digital campfire? 00:10:17.980 --> 00:10:23.060 Yeah. So, um, the term digital campfire, I have to make sure I say it is not a term that I coined. 00:10:23.400 --> 00:10:30.140 Um, I read an article about a year ago, um, and it was by Sarah Wilson. She's the one that came up 00:10:30.140 --> 00:10:35.140 with the term and she introduced this. Yeah. She was talking about the future of social media 00:10:35.140 --> 00:10:40.560 and how she's noticing that the future of social media is heading towards the digital campfires 00:10:40.560 --> 00:10:46.860 and digital campfires are essentially, uh, these smaller, intimate, more spaces where people, 00:10:46.980 --> 00:10:52.640 especially younger audiences are connecting. And so, you know, she should be essentially what she was 00:10:52.640 --> 00:10:58.340 saying is we're moving away from these perfectly curated profiles and these public facing posts. 00:10:58.340 --> 00:11:04.620 And people are having conversations and connecting over shared interests within these digital campfires. 00:11:05.020 --> 00:11:11.380 And she identifies, uh, three categories of digital campfires. So they are, um, private messaging, 00:11:11.840 --> 00:11:18.620 micro communities and shared experiences. And so I read this article, uh, a year ago and I was like, 00:11:18.720 --> 00:11:24.660 wow, I was like, yes. Like I was just like, immediately I was like, yes, like this, this is spot on. I, 00:11:24.820 --> 00:11:30.160 I was reflecting on my own social media use and my, and my friend's social media use. And I was just like, 00:11:30.180 --> 00:11:35.600 yeah, like this, this, this is definitely where social media is heading. Um, and so that, you know, 00:11:35.600 --> 00:11:40.420 I kind of had this article in the back of my head all throughout 2020 and, and seeing, 00:11:40.420 --> 00:11:45.460 you know, then the pandemic came and seeing, you know, how churches had to pivot to, to go online and 00:11:45.460 --> 00:11:49.960 doing ministry online, um, and just kind of noting, you know, what looks like that's, that's, 00:11:49.960 --> 00:11:55.180 that's a great idea. And noticing what really wasn't really working well. Um, and so again, 00:11:55.180 --> 00:12:00.720 thinking about all that and then get to the end of 2020. And I think it was part frustration, 00:12:00.720 --> 00:12:05.760 but also part feeling inspired. And then I was like, yeah, wait, the church, 00:12:05.760 --> 00:12:11.680 the church can be and create digital campfires like for worship and for community and for 00:12:11.680 --> 00:12:17.460 discipleship. Um, and so that's where the, where the article was kind of born out of, um, 00:12:17.660 --> 00:12:23.880 just to hopefully inspire and encourage anyone reading it, you know, just of, of new ways to, 00:12:24.020 --> 00:12:30.260 I think, approach online church. That's really good. Yeah. Um, I've seen how private messaging, 00:12:30.260 --> 00:12:35.300 especially, uh, for countries that can't have full digital access to the gospel. 00:12:35.760 --> 00:12:39.540 Are they've been leveraging this for, so for instance, at my church, there's a gentleman 00:12:39.540 --> 00:12:44.880 who's Pakistani back in his home country. They can't, they can't openly share the gospel digitally, 00:12:44.880 --> 00:12:50.000 but they've been on telegram for years because it's completely encrypted. And so they've been 00:12:50.000 --> 00:12:55.020 leveraging that for the sake of sharing verses and sharing encouragement, or even just, you know, 00:12:55.400 --> 00:12:59.620 sermons online, et cetera. How have you seen private messaging kind of take off, you know, 00:12:59.620 --> 00:13:03.420 here in the free world, but also just as a way to engage people missionally? 00:13:03.940 --> 00:13:09.920 Yeah. Um, uh, I know I'm, I'm also kind of inspired by, I think, New Spring Church in South 00:13:09.920 --> 00:13:14.100 Carolina. Um, I know that they have, you know, they, I was checking out their website the other 00:13:14.100 --> 00:13:18.900 day and they, you know, they say, you know, you can text, I think, Bible to like a number and they 00:13:18.900 --> 00:13:24.340 are, they send a devotional at 6am every morning. And I think that's fantastic. Right. Um, you know, 00:13:24.340 --> 00:13:27.960 people wake up in the morning, first thing they reach for is their phone and they're seeing, 00:13:27.960 --> 00:13:33.160 you know, a word from the pastor. They're, they're seeing a Bible verse. Um, and so, you know, we're, 00:13:33.160 --> 00:13:38.360 we're all on our phones, um, and there's, you know, the email inbox and that's, that is still, 00:13:38.500 --> 00:13:43.720 I think a great way to reach people. But, um, I think with private messaging, you know, a lot of the 00:13:43.720 --> 00:13:49.580 conversations are taking place in Instagram DMs and in WhatsApp, as you mentioned, um, and in 00:13:49.580 --> 00:13:54.480 messenger. And so it's like, okay, well, how do you meet people there in a way that's not 00:13:54.480 --> 00:14:00.240 intrusive in a way that's not spammy, but in a way that you can kind of, yeah, encourage people. 00:14:00.240 --> 00:14:04.600 And it's not about, you know, sharing, you know, there's a woman's event is happening, you know, 00:14:04.600 --> 00:14:09.100 this Sunday, but also just like, you know, here's an encouraging word. Here's a thought. Here's, 00:14:09.160 --> 00:14:15.200 um, you know, uh, uh, a point from maybe the sermon on Sunday. Um, I think that's a way that 00:14:15.200 --> 00:14:19.680 I think at least here in North America, I think that's an interesting avenue for the church to 00:14:19.680 --> 00:14:25.040 kind of explore. Yeah. I love the idea here with the campfires and you alluded to it earlier where 00:14:25.040 --> 00:14:31.660 it's your, we're, we're moving away this technology piece and COVID kind of fast-tracked it. I think 00:14:31.660 --> 00:14:38.780 we're moving away from a lot of this, this polished, this, this professional, this kind of perfection 00:14:38.780 --> 00:14:45.940 in social media and we're moving much more towards a, a, a relational, a conversation, 00:14:45.940 --> 00:14:53.520 a much more two-way engaging dialoguing. Uh, I mean, I, I hate to say the word real and authentic, 00:14:53.520 --> 00:14:58.560 but I don't, I don't, I'm, I'm losing words, uh, except for that. Like I'm kind of adopting a 00:14:58.560 --> 00:15:05.600 millennial language here. Can't we just be authentic here? But the heart of it is, is that is becoming 00:15:05.600 --> 00:15:10.600 far more effective in social media with connecting with people than some of the stuff that we were 00:15:10.600 --> 00:15:16.740 even doing maybe 18 to 18 months, two years ago. And I was reading some articles this week too, 00:15:16.860 --> 00:15:23.340 talking about either the VP of Facebook messenger was talking about trends for 2021. And one of the 00:15:23.340 --> 00:15:29.280 trends, um, they highlighted was this, this, this approach of conversational marketing. And I think 00:15:29.280 --> 00:15:35.620 there was a stat that like, um, I tweeted, I tweeted it on my Twitter, but many people started messaging 00:15:35.620 --> 00:15:41.980 brands last year because people want to be able to, you know, to, to ask questions and, you know, 00:15:41.980 --> 00:15:46.920 get the information they need. And they're also expecting it kind of like not real time, but they're 00:15:46.920 --> 00:15:51.820 kind of expecting a response, you know, kind of quickly. And so I think we're going to continue to 00:15:51.820 --> 00:15:55.700 see that. And so I think, you know, it, whether the word's authentic, I like the word, you know, 00:15:55.700 --> 00:16:02.320 just human, I think, I think, um, people are just craving connection. People are just craving, 00:16:02.320 --> 00:16:08.760 you know, to be seen and to be heard and to be known. And I think social media with, with all the 00:16:08.760 --> 00:16:13.760 different features that are emerging, I think it's, it's moving towards the direction of, of, of 00:16:13.760 --> 00:16:19.620 authentic, as you said, a two-way kind of connection. It's conversational. Um, and I think that's really 00:16:19.620 --> 00:16:24.600 exciting. And I, even with Twitter, I think this week they announced, um, that they're going to be 00:16:24.600 --> 00:16:30.300 launching a communities feature and you look at fleets and you look at, um, uh, I think that they 00:16:30.300 --> 00:16:34.820 have a super follow feature that they're going to be introducing. And it's really just Twitter trying 00:16:34.820 --> 00:16:40.280 to make more, make it more of an intimate platform, Twitter spaces as well. They're trying to make it 00:16:40.280 --> 00:16:44.680 more of an intimate platform where people can connect and you, you, whether it's through voice 00:16:44.680 --> 00:16:49.880 or whether it's through, you know, just, you know, tweets that you can put out that maybe not as 00:16:49.880 --> 00:16:55.200 polished on your main feed. But I think we're seeing a lot of social media platforms are just 00:16:55.200 --> 00:17:01.280 trying to encourage and foster connection. So as a church, like, what are some practical steps that 00:17:01.280 --> 00:17:05.980 we could take to help, you know, get the fire stoked? How can we start a digital plot or a digital 00:17:05.980 --> 00:17:11.600 campfire? A digital campfire or just, uh, um, private messaging? Well, I mean, a digital campfire. 00:17:11.960 --> 00:17:16.740 Yeah. So, um, in the article, I kind of outlined three ways you can kind of approach it. I don't think, 00:17:16.740 --> 00:17:21.880 I mean, I, I, I hoped I made it clear was that, you know, I think it definitely takes prayer and 00:17:21.880 --> 00:17:25.180 discernment of what would work in your church community. And I think that maybe that's the 00:17:25.180 --> 00:17:29.600 first place to start is, you know, knowing who your church community is and your church demographics, 00:17:29.600 --> 00:17:35.520 because if you're a church that, you know what, your members don't have smartphones, I don't know, 00:17:35.580 --> 00:17:40.020 it's possible. Then maybe texting doesn't work for you or, you know, maybe that maybe WhatsApp 00:17:40.020 --> 00:17:44.580 doesn't work for you. So I think starting from a place of prayer and starting from who is your 00:17:44.580 --> 00:17:51.300 community. Um, and then also your resources. So, you know, a lot of, sure, there are a lot of small 00:17:51.300 --> 00:17:56.340 churches and you have to kind of look at your staff resources and financial resources and kind of say, 00:17:56.400 --> 00:18:01.920 okay, what can we do? And so, uh, with private messaging, you know, I know that there's, um, 00:18:02.220 --> 00:18:06.640 there's pastors line, I believe it's a service call there's text in church. So that's something 00:18:06.640 --> 00:18:12.740 that you could maybe look into and sign up for. And, you know, um, you, I think many churches do this 00:18:12.740 --> 00:18:17.820 where, you know, if you're new here, texts, you know, new to blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And 00:18:17.820 --> 00:18:22.040 that's a way you can kind of, you know, uh, you know, connect with people who are new to your church, 00:18:22.040 --> 00:18:26.980 or even if it's whether with whatever giving platform you have, maybe it's having that text 00:18:26.980 --> 00:18:32.400 to give. And it's not just people texting, you know, whatever amount, but then hopefully you can 00:18:32.400 --> 00:18:37.980 respond back and say, you know, thank you. Um, you know, personalize their name, let them know how 00:18:37.980 --> 00:18:42.240 their contribution is making a difference. So that's kind of another, another way they can do 00:18:42.240 --> 00:18:47.880 that. Um, and I think in private messaging, some other examples I give is yeah, using WhatsApp groups, 00:18:48.060 --> 00:18:53.320 um, you know, or what's, what's that broadcast messages to send out a devotional or send out, 00:18:53.320 --> 00:18:58.180 uh, you know, a Bible verse of the day, just something small. Um, again, that's not spammy, 00:18:58.180 --> 00:19:03.020 that's not, um, you know, just adding more noise to people's life, but something that adds value, 00:19:03.120 --> 00:19:08.000 something that is just, I think, speaking into their lives. Um, so I think that's, that's kind 00:19:08.000 --> 00:19:14.800 of some, some specific ways for private messaging, uh, for micro communities. Um, I know, I think when, 00:19:15.040 --> 00:19:18.880 when you talk about micro communities, everyone thinks Facebook groups and Facebook groups of course 00:19:18.880 --> 00:19:26.120 are huge. Again, I read an article, um, uh, this week that was saying that, uh, 1.8, I believe it's 00:19:26.120 --> 00:19:32.960 1.8 billion people use Facebook groups, um, every month and more than, uh, half of the people who are 00:19:32.960 --> 00:19:39.240 on Facebook are a member of at least five groups. So Facebook groups are huge, but, um, I think 00:19:39.240 --> 00:19:44.220 thinking beyond that, and I think thinking maybe beyond say like your small group ministry, but 00:19:44.220 --> 00:19:49.940 like, what are other ways you can build little communities? So some practical ways, um, I kind 00:19:49.940 --> 00:19:53.400 of, you know, maybe it's a podcast. You can definitely build community around podcasts like this 00:19:53.400 --> 00:19:59.820 one or, um, uh, some other, uh, micro communities, um, my church. So what they launched is an 00:19:59.820 --> 00:20:05.640 intergenerational ministry and that's it. That's where, um, they invite older women, older women. 00:20:05.760 --> 00:20:10.840 So like in their, I guess you could say forties and up, um, to, and they like younger women as well 00:20:10.840 --> 00:20:16.560 to kind of come together. And I attended one of them. This was me about two years ago. Um, and this 00:20:16.560 --> 00:20:21.780 was in person, but they actually just re recently launched it online. So on zoom, you have older 00:20:21.780 --> 00:20:27.280 women and younger women connecting and they're able to, you know, look at the Bible and just 00:20:27.280 --> 00:20:32.200 kind of, you know, talk about issues that women have to deal with. And I think that's, that's 00:20:32.200 --> 00:20:36.080 beautiful and that's really special. And that's a way that you can build a community with women 00:20:36.080 --> 00:20:41.460 and young women in your church. Um, but some other, other examples, I think that I mentioned 00:20:41.460 --> 00:20:46.160 is you version, I think is fantastic. I use them a big fan of it. And the fact that you can 00:20:46.160 --> 00:20:52.400 do group devotionals is super awesome. Um, and, uh, I think you can have up to 150 people 00:20:52.400 --> 00:20:57.380 in one at one at a time. So, um, yeah, that's great. I think there's a church in Winnipeg 00:20:57.380 --> 00:21:03.040 called Oasis church of Winnipeg, Canada, um, Oasis church. And I think they do, um, each 00:21:03.040 --> 00:21:08.500 week, I believe they have a different devotional and invite people to, to join in that. So that's 00:21:08.500 --> 00:21:14.280 pretty awesome. Um, and then messenger rooms, um, Facebook launched rooms during, uh, the pandemic 00:21:14.280 --> 00:21:20.160 and, um, you know, you could use that as a virtual lobby before, after your service, you can use that 00:21:20.160 --> 00:21:26.020 as a prayer room, you know, if you want to even just, you know, try a 24, a 20, 24 hour prayer room 00:21:26.020 --> 00:21:30.860 and just have it open and people can join. And the great thing about, I think, uh, Facebook rooms 00:21:30.860 --> 00:21:37.360 is you don't need a Facebook account to join. So, um, I think that's pretty awesome. Um, and then book 00:21:37.360 --> 00:21:44.000 clubs, I just saw connexus church. Um, they, I think in the last week or so connexus church here in 00:21:44.000 --> 00:21:48.960 Canada, they, uh, are starting a book club and I believe it's probably gonna be over zoom, but I'm 00:21:48.960 --> 00:21:55.020 sure you could also do it on Instagram live or Facebook live. And, um, yeah, you can, uh, launch 00:21:55.020 --> 00:22:00.060 a book club and, you know, you can look at, you know, Christian books or business books, depending 00:22:00.060 --> 00:22:06.100 on again, your audience and what they would be, uh, appeal, uh, would be appealing to them. Um, so those 00:22:06.100 --> 00:22:10.680 are some micro communities ideas, but I think that's the one I'm actually most excited about just 00:22:10.680 --> 00:22:16.200 because I think small groups are great. And Jeff, I think you posted that article, uh, this 00:22:16.200 --> 00:22:22.100 week about the call of duty and talking about, yeah. And I definitely agreed with the fact 00:22:22.100 --> 00:22:27.800 that I think the idea of joining a small group of eight to 12 people is super intimidating. 00:22:28.060 --> 00:22:33.480 And I think about, okay, now if someone's online during a pandemic and they're joining an online 00:22:33.480 --> 00:22:38.040 group, like how, how intimidating is that? Like you're joining a group of eight to 12 people 00:22:38.040 --> 00:22:44.560 who are strangers. You're not even like physically, you know, in their presence. And so, um, you know, 00:22:44.620 --> 00:22:49.960 just, just smaller communities of maybe like, you know, two to six, I think, I think that's, 00:22:50.040 --> 00:22:55.420 that is where discipleship and connection can happen. Um, and so, yeah, so those are the micro 00:22:55.420 --> 00:23:01.180 communities and then shared experiences, practical ways, I think to foster shared experiences. Well, 00:23:01.580 --> 00:23:07.180 I think, you know, you have the Sunday service and that is, you know, your biggest shared experience. 00:23:07.180 --> 00:23:13.340 And I said in the article, uh, your Sunday service is your bonfire, you know, everyone gathers around 00:23:13.340 --> 00:23:18.360 that, but the digital campfires are really what you do throughout the week. And those are just as 00:23:18.360 --> 00:23:24.860 important. And so what does that look like? Well, I think in a, in a sassy version of the article 00:23:24.860 --> 00:23:29.840 that I read one draft of it, you know, I talk about how, you know, the church talks about doing life 00:23:29.840 --> 00:23:35.720 together. And so like, what does that mean now in, in, in 2021 online, what does it mean to do life 00:23:35.720 --> 00:23:43.020 together? What, what, what spaces and what digital experiences can you create so that, um, that people can, 00:23:43.020 --> 00:23:48.520 can gather and they can, um, gather around shared meaning and they can feel like they belong and 00:23:48.520 --> 00:23:53.960 it's authentic and it's engaging. It doesn't necessarily have to be the Sunday service. 00:23:53.960 --> 00:23:58.860 I think the Sunday service should have those components, but, you know, some practical ways 00:23:58.860 --> 00:24:04.900 that maybe like churches can do that is, um, I think I put forth the idea of, you know, maybe it's a 00:24:04.900 --> 00:24:11.780 baking class and proceeds from the baking class go towards a local food bank. Maybe it's having a virtual 00:24:11.780 --> 00:24:16.900 prayer and praise night where, you know, you and other churches in your city gather together to have 00:24:16.900 --> 00:24:22.260 a virtual, you know, prayer and praise night on zoom and you pray for your city and, you know, you have, 00:24:22.380 --> 00:24:28.620 you know, you read the Bible or, you know, you have invite speakers and just, I think, I think the 00:24:28.620 --> 00:24:35.800 opportunities for shared experiences are kind of endless. Um, and, um, I've even seen HTV church, 00:24:35.800 --> 00:24:40.920 I believe in London. I'm a big fan of, um, you, if you want to talk about even reaching young adults, 00:24:40.920 --> 00:24:46.480 right? So on their YouTube channel, um, they did a live stream called healthy conversations. It was a 00:24:46.480 --> 00:24:50.760 series. And I thought it was pretty cool because what it is, is that I think it's about a 40 minute 00:24:50.760 --> 00:24:55.720 stream. And for the first 20 minutes, it's like, you know, young adults doing a workout together. 00:24:56.040 --> 00:25:01.700 And then after that, the same people who are doing the workout, they go and they sit around a table 00:25:01.700 --> 00:25:07.420 and have a conversation. It's about the mind or the heart or strength. And I'm just like, yeah, 00:25:07.480 --> 00:25:11.660 like, you know, I think sometimes people think, or I don't know if people think this, but, you know, 00:25:11.680 --> 00:25:16.320 I think sometimes it's like, okay, it has to be, you know, church and Bible related. But I think 00:25:16.320 --> 00:25:20.760 doing life together is about how, how, yes, you can grow spiritually, but how you can have fun 00:25:20.760 --> 00:25:25.380 together, how you can go through hard things together, um, and just allow people again to 00:25:25.380 --> 00:25:29.880 connect to Jesus, but also connect to each other. So I think that's kind of an overview of just 00:25:29.880 --> 00:25:35.360 practical ways of how churches can kind of create digital campfires. Okay. But I still want to read 00:25:35.360 --> 00:25:42.820 the sassy version of the article. Yeah, there was a sassy version. I think, as I said, it was a little 00:25:42.820 --> 00:25:49.800 bit of it was born out of frustration, I think, because I think it's hard because I think with the 00:25:49.800 --> 00:25:57.100 pandemic, so many churches had to pivot online and that was really hard to do. And a lot of churches, 00:25:57.100 --> 00:26:04.100 I think, took what they were doing in person and tried to do that online. And I don't think that 00:26:04.100 --> 00:26:09.400 works. I think when you're online, you're in a whole different ball game. And with YouTube, like, 00:26:09.500 --> 00:26:13.500 you know, you see what vloggers are doing, you see what popular YouTube channels are doing, 00:26:13.560 --> 00:26:18.900 the format of their videos. And you can't tell me then that, you know, doing an hour long sermon 00:26:18.900 --> 00:26:25.860 is you can't do the same thing online. So it's hard now because, you know, we're approaching a year. 00:26:26.740 --> 00:26:31.180 And I think a lot of churches, as I said, I think a lot of churches, you know, they did what they had 00:26:31.180 --> 00:26:36.300 to do and they took what they were doing in person and brought it online. But now it's like we're at a 00:26:36.300 --> 00:26:40.840 year. It's like, you got to look if that's working. And I don't think it is. I think you have to adapt 00:26:40.840 --> 00:26:47.800 to the format, you have to adapt to your audience. And, and yeah, and just I hope the digital campfires 00:26:47.800 --> 00:26:53.820 kind of encourages people to kind of start thinking about how you do online church to do it differently. 00:26:54.620 --> 00:27:00.160 Yeah, for me, and one of the things that I've always noticed is these digital campfire communities, 00:27:00.500 --> 00:27:03.220 number one, I think a lot more people are part of them and don't even realize it. 00:27:03.760 --> 00:27:09.920 Um, but, but number two, the intimacy that it's, that it's experienced there. I just don't think 00:27:09.920 --> 00:27:13.820 a lot of folks are recognizing kind of what you're talking about, because I've seen this in my own 00:27:13.820 --> 00:27:18.520 small group where we've, we've got our in-person meeting or right now we're on zoom, but we used 00:27:18.520 --> 00:27:24.260 to be in person. Right. But our WhatsApp chat is much more dynamic than sometimes what happens in 00:27:24.260 --> 00:27:27.860 group because, you know, people are more prone to share there. Yeah. 00:27:28.080 --> 00:27:31.920 And so I see a lot more of that. And when I see that, I'm like, that's kind of the bigger win 00:27:31.920 --> 00:27:36.620 than what I see happening once a week in group, because even if it's something as simple as memes 00:27:36.620 --> 00:27:40.380 being shared, like on a regular basis or whatever else, at least you're sharing part of your life, 00:27:40.460 --> 00:27:45.760 something that you find funny or something else. And I just wonder if a lot more people are part of 00:27:45.760 --> 00:27:49.060 those digital campfires and not even recognizing it at church. 00:27:49.060 --> 00:27:53.520 I think they are. And as I said, the stat with Facebook groups, I think everyone's a part of 00:27:53.520 --> 00:28:00.980 Facebook groups. And that is a great way to build community and to, uh, to disciple people and give 00:28:00.980 --> 00:28:05.780 them a space to share prayer requests and, and just connect with each other. And I think what was 00:28:05.780 --> 00:28:11.080 interesting about the report that I read, um, recently is that they said that I think some of 00:28:11.080 --> 00:28:16.240 the strongest groups are connected because, uh, they're connected to a local community. They're 00:28:16.240 --> 00:28:21.000 connected geographically. So let's say you have like a group that's like, I don't know, 00:28:21.000 --> 00:28:25.820 women in finance, but it's women in finance Toronto because they're, you know, there's that, 00:28:25.920 --> 00:28:30.680 there's that geographic part that links them. Apparently though that, that strengthens the 00:28:30.680 --> 00:28:35.960 bond of the group. And so I'm like, well, churches are, you know, there, there's some churches and 00:28:35.960 --> 00:28:40.140 there are digital churches as well, but the churches that do have, you know, physical location 00:28:40.140 --> 00:28:47.340 in your city. Yeah. You can, you can connect people. You can, you can, you know, as I said, 00:28:47.340 --> 00:28:53.100 you can disciple people, you can provide spaces for worship. I think there's just a huge, I think, 00:28:53.260 --> 00:28:59.340 yeah, Facebook groups definitely underutilized when it comes to, to, to connecting with people. 00:28:59.640 --> 00:29:05.200 Yeah. I think some of the challenge that, that you're bringing out here in churches, like we know, 00:29:05.280 --> 00:29:09.740 hey, let's create community together. But what you're highlighting are opportunities for that 00:29:09.740 --> 00:29:15.860 community to be defined digitally. Hey, let's, let's consider that YouVersion Bible reading plan 00:29:15.860 --> 00:29:20.280 that a hundred of us are going through or 10 of us are going through or our workplace is going through. 00:29:20.360 --> 00:29:26.100 Let's consider that a step towards community. And a lot of churches probably wouldn't go to that 00:29:26.100 --> 00:29:31.700 extreme of, of wanting it or wouldn't necessarily see value in, you know, a WhatsApp group to allude 00:29:31.700 --> 00:29:36.780 to what Ray was saying with having memes that, that are kind of posted there, doing life together, 00:29:36.780 --> 00:29:42.440 kind of creating that community and then building upon it. A lot of churches, at least down here in the 00:29:42.440 --> 00:29:47.940 U S would probably push back that and say, no, we've got some standards, uh, that are at a different 00:29:47.940 --> 00:29:53.740 level. But I love your heart, uh, towards this of, Hey, let's recognize that a digital community is a 00:29:53.740 --> 00:29:58.400 digital community. Um, which really to the places. And the thing that really challenged me of, of your 00:29:58.400 --> 00:30:05.380 three was your view of shared experiences and having that be what, one of the campfires I'm listening. 00:30:05.440 --> 00:30:10.940 And I've said this publicly coming as a guy who's created tens of thousands of church worship services in 00:30:10.940 --> 00:30:18.740 his lifetime. Um, I, the idea of online worship services for me, it's, is kind of fading physical, digital. 00:30:18.740 --> 00:30:24.620 Like it just, honestly, it doesn't have the spark for me that it did once. Um, maybe, maybe God's doing 00:30:24.620 --> 00:30:29.560 something in my life. Maybe I need to awaken myself and realize there is a purpose in the large gathering. 00:30:29.560 --> 00:30:34.880 Still, I'm, I'm just being like transparent and honest here. Right. So, and even like what we even 00:30:34.880 --> 00:30:41.360 see in context of, of Barna, 80% of people, uh, 80% of people that are cold to Christ that are not 00:30:41.360 --> 00:30:48.620 Christians are not interested in your physical or digital service. And so for me, this idea of a 00:30:48.620 --> 00:30:54.560 shared experience that maybe is not within the structure of the typical weekend service to me is 00:30:54.560 --> 00:31:00.340 interesting because now we're looking at maybe forgive somebody's going to freak out when I say 00:31:00.340 --> 00:31:05.660 this and I'm sorry, but maybe we're throwing away the old model of, of what the weekend service look 00:31:05.660 --> 00:31:13.600 like. And maybe we're coming back with a new model, a new way of how this could operate. Uh, and so some 00:31:13.600 --> 00:31:18.940 of the freedom to kind of explore and do something in here, I think is beautiful. Like I'm even looking at 00:31:18.940 --> 00:31:23.420 some of your examples and once again, okay. So like some of the stuff that I'm saying, okay, Jeff, 00:31:23.420 --> 00:31:27.960 where are you doing communion? We can figure that out. But what I'm more suggesting is there, 00:31:27.960 --> 00:31:33.960 maybe there's opportunities for us to engage in large gatherings, uh, a multi-day fasting or prayer 00:31:33.960 --> 00:31:39.080 challenge with down downloadable journal, uh, a virtual small groups retreat with worship music, 00:31:39.160 --> 00:31:44.560 guest speakers, prayer nights is what you talked about. Um, you know, even things, and this is maybe 00:31:44.560 --> 00:31:49.460 extreme and this is, okay, I'm not calling this a church service, but hold a virtual cooking or 00:31:49.460 --> 00:31:54.000 baking class with donations going towards a food bank or shelter. Like these are options 00:31:54.000 --> 00:32:00.180 for us to gather people together in, in a social space and relationally connect with people. 00:32:00.540 --> 00:32:04.540 I have seen some churches partake in this, just maybe not as intentionally as, as what 00:32:04.540 --> 00:32:08.480 we would have thought. But for instance, um, just here in Miami, I know that the Voo church, 00:32:08.540 --> 00:32:13.440 uh, they, they've got like a completely downloadable Bible study journal that they encourage their 00:32:13.540 --> 00:32:17.240 church to go along with them, you know, throughout the year. And then their groups have been meeting 00:32:17.240 --> 00:32:20.180 online. And in some of these channels, I've got friends that have been part of that. CF, 00:32:20.340 --> 00:32:24.660 Jeff, you may remember like a while back we did a downloadable fasting journal. We encouraged our 00:32:24.660 --> 00:32:28.800 folks, Hey, look, we're going to be doing a 45 day fast. And, you know, you can download this 00:32:28.800 --> 00:32:33.220 journal here on our website at cfmiami.org slash fast. And, and it gave them like clear instructions 00:32:33.220 --> 00:32:38.360 on how to do that. And so those are some encouraging things that I think we can take, uh, some of the, 00:32:38.360 --> 00:32:43.420 the future things that I think that you're calling on as far as like expanding, uh, you know, 00:32:43.500 --> 00:32:47.900 the digital campfires that we take part in to go into interest to me are some of the most fascinating 00:32:47.900 --> 00:32:53.660 because, you know, you talk about like doing, uh, a bake show thing, uh, for, for Jeff and I, it might 00:32:53.660 --> 00:32:58.560 be, Hey, look, WandaVision's finale is tonight. We're going to be doing a talk about it here. 00:32:58.940 --> 00:33:04.120 Come join us. And things like that, that are, you know, geeky and nerdy to some, but to us, 00:33:04.140 --> 00:33:08.720 it's pretty awesome. Might be the kind of campfire that draws a few people to come and see. 00:33:09.340 --> 00:33:14.100 I think, um, one of the other examples I mentioned was, um, again, HTV church, they have, 00:33:14.100 --> 00:33:20.100 they launched a Twitch channel for their youth. And I believe most of the streams so far have just 00:33:20.100 --> 00:33:25.340 been like, I, it's probably, it's probably their youth pastors, um, but just playing video games and 00:33:25.340 --> 00:33:30.060 just, you know, inviting people to come in and chat. And I think that's fantastic, especially because 00:33:30.060 --> 00:33:35.420 I'm like, you know, Twitch, Twitch is a platform where younger people are. So yeah, I think, 00:33:35.500 --> 00:33:40.180 I think Jeff, you kind of touched on it that maybe, you know, things outside of the Sunday 00:33:40.180 --> 00:33:46.000 service are really kind of, uh, uh, I think it's the term low barrier. Yeah. A low barrier way for 00:33:46.000 --> 00:33:51.540 people to maybe get introduced to the church or just introduced to people and, and, and people who 00:33:51.540 --> 00:33:56.680 are real and people who are being authentic. Um, and so I, I think that the idea of shared experiences 00:33:56.680 --> 00:34:03.280 is, is really exciting because you are gathering people hopefully around a shared interest or a shared 00:34:03.280 --> 00:34:10.060 purpose. Um, and when I talk about shared purpose, um, I think about, uh, the, the power of moments by 00:34:10.060 --> 00:34:15.660 Chip and Dan Heath. It's a book that I really love. And he talks about, um, you know, yeah, 00:34:15.660 --> 00:34:22.040 shared experiences, how it's kind of hard to gather people around a shared passion, but it's easier to 00:34:22.040 --> 00:34:26.420 kind of, uh, gather people around a shared purpose that people can take ownership of a mission. They can 00:34:26.420 --> 00:34:32.620 then go away and they can do their part. And so, um, I'm like, again, again, the church has a great 00:34:32.620 --> 00:34:37.760 mission. That's probably the best mission. And so what are ways that you can connect people around 00:34:37.760 --> 00:34:42.420 that, but also in a way that's not always like churchy, I guess, in a way, again, it's about doing 00:34:42.420 --> 00:34:48.700 life together. And so the hard parts, the fun parts, you know, the learning parts, the growing parts. 00:34:49.200 --> 00:34:54.520 Yeah. Where, how can you make spaces that are authentic, that are engaging? Um, I think that's 00:34:54.520 --> 00:34:59.640 kind of the question and the challenge. Let me, let me shift gears. Cause I, cause I think that's a 00:34:59.640 --> 00:35:06.940 really interesting point that, that we can cross over on. So shared purpose, like you're, you're a 00:35:06.940 --> 00:35:12.040 millennial, you're, you're, you're 26. I just Googled, I couldn't remember what the report was, 00:35:12.040 --> 00:35:18.980 but Barna did a publication at some point within 2020 that said 50% of, uh, millennials don't agree 00:35:18.980 --> 00:35:24.460 with evangelism. Like the idea of, of that. Um, I'm not necessarily asking you to speak for your 00:35:24.460 --> 00:35:31.640 entire, um, you know, whatever the term there is. It's what, what is the label for, for like that age 00:35:31.640 --> 00:35:36.920 for your generation, our generation, for all of us, for all of us, speak, speak for everybody, 00:35:36.980 --> 00:35:40.360 all the millennials, Ray, Ray's a millennial as well. Like you're, you're on a little on the older 00:35:40.360 --> 00:35:46.420 side. I'm not, I'm a millennial. Um, my wife is a reluctant millennial. Like she wants to be Gen X so 00:35:46.420 --> 00:35:52.740 bad and they keep like revoking her card. It's a dangerous thing going on here. 00:35:53.260 --> 00:35:59.420 But, um, there, there's an interesting point here because like we're being told, Hey, uh, evangelism, 00:35:59.420 --> 00:36:04.980 at least within your generation is, is a bad thing. Um, but what, what I'm hearing for you is 00:36:04.980 --> 00:36:11.620 being on purpose is the thing that you're looking for. And it's actually a thing that I hear within 00:36:11.620 --> 00:36:17.520 that millennial generation, getting people on purpose is really the challenge. So like, 00:36:17.880 --> 00:36:23.320 talk to me a little bit, even if it's just like your, your perspective, maybe not your generation 00:36:23.320 --> 00:36:28.680 or generation, if you can comfortable speaking to at least what you see, um, like as, as a millennial, 00:36:28.800 --> 00:36:32.400 what's your view really, when it gets down to the heart of, of evangelism? 00:36:32.900 --> 00:36:38.820 Okay. My view, cause I'm hesitant to speak on my, my generation, but my view is, or what I've 00:36:38.820 --> 00:36:46.180 learned and I'm learning is that evangelism isn't a choice. Like when you're called to be a disciple 00:36:46.180 --> 00:36:52.680 of Jesus, it, it's, it is sharing your faith. Um, and I know I've said this to my leadership too, 00:36:52.800 --> 00:36:57.060 where, you know, as with the great commission, I believe, you know, Jesus doesn't call us to, 00:36:57.060 --> 00:37:03.180 you know, get more views or get more subscribers. No, he calls us to make disciples. And, and so, 00:37:03.460 --> 00:37:07.880 you know, it's not, it's not something optional. It's something that, you know, if you're uncomfortable 00:37:07.880 --> 00:37:12.180 with doing, it's something you, if you want to grow in your faith, it's something that you have to, 00:37:12.180 --> 00:37:18.700 you know, slowly get comfortable with doing. Um, I think sometimes the hesitation that comes from 00:37:18.700 --> 00:37:25.100 evangelism and witness is I think we've just evolved into a culture of not wanting to offend people 00:37:25.100 --> 00:37:30.900 and not wanting to make someone uncomfortable. And, and unfortunately, because of that, it's like, 00:37:30.960 --> 00:37:34.860 well, you're afraid that if, you know, if you text your friend and say, Hey, you know, would you want 00:37:34.860 --> 00:37:39.260 to check out the church service? The person's going to think, Oh, they're trying to convert me. And like, 00:37:39.260 --> 00:37:46.820 and so you kind of have that fear, I think, but I wonder if the solution to that is, you know, 00:37:47.080 --> 00:37:52.440 it's baby steps with, in terms of shape and sharing your faith and, you know, letting people know that, 00:37:52.580 --> 00:37:58.500 Hey, sharing your faith might be, um, you know, I think in you version, they have the, uh, the verse 00:37:58.500 --> 00:38:02.420 of the day. Maybe you just share that to your Instagram story and you share that and you just 00:38:02.420 --> 00:38:07.320 share that every day and you, you know, or maybe it's, you know, you, you ask on Snapchat, Hey, 00:38:07.320 --> 00:38:11.380 does anyone have any prayer requests? And you might not hear back from anyone, but I think there are 00:38:11.380 --> 00:38:17.060 little small ways. And I think the word evangelism can seem like this big, scary word. I think, 00:38:17.160 --> 00:38:22.100 especially in Toronto, um, you know, you might think it's the person holding the sign that says, 00:38:22.140 --> 00:38:27.580 you know, repent, but it's really, I think the small ways of sharing your faith. And then the 00:38:27.580 --> 00:38:35.460 other thing with evangelism is I'm huge about relationship and people ask me quite a few times, 00:38:35.460 --> 00:38:39.980 like, how do you reach millennials? And I'm like, it's about relationship. It's about, you know, 00:38:40.040 --> 00:38:43.940 I know that you care for me. I know that you want to connect with me. I know that you're going to 00:38:43.940 --> 00:38:49.560 accept me as I am, but also, you know, speak the truth and love to me. It's about making those 00:38:49.560 --> 00:38:55.480 relationships. And so sometimes I think the best way to share your faith is just, you know, 00:38:55.820 --> 00:39:01.260 following Jesus and obeying his commands and being compassionate, being kind. Um, 00:39:01.360 --> 00:39:07.880 that's also a way of evangelism is, is truly living out your faith. Um, and so I think, 00:39:07.880 --> 00:39:14.280 I feel like from my personal experiences that under, like that hasn't been educated, 00:39:14.280 --> 00:39:19.720 that hasn't been maybe preached on, that hasn't been made clear. And so that's why evangelism is 00:39:19.720 --> 00:39:25.800 now this big, scary word, or sometimes has these negative connotations to it because people don't 00:39:25.800 --> 00:39:31.560 understand maybe that it's really, it can be really simple. And also like the Holy, the Holy Spirit, 00:39:31.720 --> 00:39:36.300 it's huge. Like that you can't, like the Holy Spirit will help you, you know, know what to say 00:39:36.300 --> 00:39:41.500 in that moment. And so, you know, you're not doing on your own strength. You're not doing on your own 00:39:41.500 --> 00:39:47.360 wisdom is that, you know, God is with you, you know, through it all and he will prepare you and help 00:39:47.360 --> 00:39:53.360 you say the right thing. So I guess that's my, my nutshell on evangelism, but yeah, relationship, 00:39:53.360 --> 00:39:59.040 I think is huge. Um, and I think if I could tell a short story, uh, a personal experience is that, 00:39:59.160 --> 00:40:04.800 um, I think it was, um, after I graduated university, I, um, I wanted to do some running. 00:40:05.240 --> 00:40:10.040 So I, uh, I don't know if you guys have the running room in, in the United States. Uh, 00:40:10.040 --> 00:40:13.940 the running room is kind of like this place you can go buy running shoes and gear, but they also 00:40:13.940 --> 00:40:18.380 offer learn to run programs. And so I was like, okay, I'm going to sign up for this learn to run 00:40:18.380 --> 00:40:24.760 program, this 5k program. And so I went by myself and I went the first day and, you know, 00:40:24.760 --> 00:40:29.700 there was no one there my age, but I could see people who loved running. I could see people whose 00:40:29.700 --> 00:40:33.620 lives were changed by running. Like they talked about how much, you know, running helped them. 00:40:33.840 --> 00:40:38.080 I could see people who, who had made, you know, great friends through running. And these are people 00:40:38.080 --> 00:40:42.780 who are like my mom's age. So like that's for my mom on blast, but like, you know, in their forties 00:40:42.780 --> 00:40:48.760 and fifties. And so, um, you know, I went through the program and I missed a couple of weeks. Nobody 00:40:48.760 --> 00:40:52.660 really noticed, you know, people were signing up for races at the end, but no one really kind of 00:40:52.660 --> 00:40:57.980 held me accountable. And I didn't really end up enjoying the experience. And it was afterwards, 00:40:57.980 --> 00:41:03.380 I was like, this is the experience I think for a lot of millennials at church, they go to church 00:41:03.380 --> 00:41:08.440 and they see people who love Jesus. They see people whose lives have been changed by Jesus. They see 00:41:08.440 --> 00:41:13.240 people who have made great relationships, you know, either through connect groups or serving and they 00:41:13.240 --> 00:41:17.740 see that, but you know, they go and they, they're just a number or they go and they're just, you know, 00:41:17.740 --> 00:41:21.420 they sit in the back seat and no one's keeping them accountable. No one's connecting with them, 00:41:21.420 --> 00:41:26.500 or maybe they fill out a connect card and they just, they fall off or they drop off some of the 00:41:26.500 --> 00:41:31.920 way. And it's just really about relationship. I can't even say that enough. It's, it's, it's about 00:41:31.920 --> 00:41:37.320 relationship. I think that for my running room experience, if, you know, I had someone either the same age 00:41:37.320 --> 00:41:41.460 as me, if I had someone, you know, keeping me accountable when I wasn't there, if I had someone 00:41:41.460 --> 00:41:45.800 who really cared about my running progress, then maybe the experience would have turned out 00:41:45.800 --> 00:41:50.900 differently. And same thing with the church. If I go into a church and I know that, you know, people 00:41:50.900 --> 00:41:55.300 care about me and people care about my spiritual growth and people want to connect with me and get 00:41:55.300 --> 00:42:00.480 to know me, that's definitely going to, going to change, change my experience, I think of church. 00:42:01.040 --> 00:42:08.680 Yeah. I just even want to add to that running, um, analogy. I, I, in, in my thirties, uh, I used to 00:42:08.680 --> 00:42:14.920 run and it's funny. I turned 40 and my entire body fell apart within 48 hours of my birthday. It's, 00:42:14.920 --> 00:42:24.260 it's like teeth falling out. Knees are destroyed. Oh yeah. It's like that, man. When 40, 40 was 39 to 00:42:24.260 --> 00:42:30.240 40 was a massive jump. But in my thirties, I was, I was, I was a runner. I was running half marathons, 00:42:30.240 --> 00:42:35.560 uh, was very active athletically in that space. You just look at me at now at 43, you wouldn't think 00:42:35.560 --> 00:42:42.280 that. But in, in my thirties, like there were, I would run a hundred plus miles a month. And for me, 00:42:42.340 --> 00:42:48.740 kind of tying it back to these, these digital campfires, uh, I, I used the, the Nike plus app at that 00:42:48.740 --> 00:42:54.740 time. And, and I had a community of people that were scattered across the country, not even within 00:42:54.740 --> 00:43:00.740 my own city that were encouraging me. Matt Mahaffey, his wife, Janie is, is one of my coworkers now at 00:43:00.740 --> 00:43:06.020 Stadia. Matt Mahaffey was a pastor at a church, maybe in Pittsburgh at the time I was in Austin, 00:43:06.160 --> 00:43:11.800 Texas. And we had a competition to see who could hit a hundred miles in a month first. And, and we were 00:43:11.800 --> 00:43:16.520 dogging each other. And there were mornings that I'm getting out of bed at five 30 in the morning 00:43:16.520 --> 00:43:22.940 because it's Austin, July, where it gets to 110 temperature outside in the afternoon. And I want 00:43:22.940 --> 00:43:28.620 to run before the sun comes up and I'm doing this because I want to show it to that guy, Matt Mahaffey, 00:43:28.800 --> 00:43:35.500 who is a friend of mine, but on the other side of the country and the, the community that's possible 00:43:35.500 --> 00:43:43.400 in digital space that, that influence. Um, but now if, even if we look at it within that and realize, 00:43:43.400 --> 00:43:50.740 hey, if we want to be effective with evangelism, it has to be done through relational. It's, it's, 00:43:50.740 --> 00:43:55.980 it's interesting. Uh, but that same Barna, 40% of people who are not, Barna report December, 00:43:56.100 --> 00:44:01.760 2020 digital evangelism, 40% of people that are cold to Christ. They do not have relationship with 00:44:01.760 --> 00:44:08.600 Christ. If they have spiritual questions, they're going to go to friends who they think can answer 00:44:08.600 --> 00:44:13.020 spiritual questions. They're going to go to the friends that they see leading a spiritual life and 00:44:13.020 --> 00:44:19.320 ask them questions of it. Now that's an opportunity. Hey friends, you need to be ready to have some of 00:44:19.320 --> 00:44:23.900 these conversations with people. Don't, don't be fearful. What's interesting within that same Barna 00:44:23.900 --> 00:44:30.280 report, 90% of the people that did have those conversations with friends reported back that it 00:44:30.280 --> 00:44:37.400 went well. It was not the train wreck. It was not like, oh dear God, I hate Jesus now because that 00:44:37.400 --> 00:44:43.340 person who thought she was a Christian didn't know how to answer those questions. She did know how to 00:44:43.340 --> 00:44:47.700 answer those questions. Maybe she needs to learn how to answer them better, but the, the relationship 00:44:47.700 --> 00:44:53.560 component is, is being effective where it's happening. We as a church, we just need to be ready to embrace 00:44:53.560 --> 00:44:58.920 that maybe even more in this season. It sounds like from, from your generation, uh, Clavan, it's, 00:44:58.920 --> 00:45:04.720 it's a, it's a necessity for us. Yeah. It's, it's, it's about relationship. It really is. Um, 00:45:04.720 --> 00:45:09.800 and I think, I think that's interweaved, I think through, through, through all three types of digital 00:45:09.800 --> 00:45:15.500 campfires, whether it's private messaging, you know, again, it's not about, you know, necessarily one 00:45:15.500 --> 00:45:21.340 way communication, but is there a way that you can kind of, you know, you know, have that back and 00:45:21.340 --> 00:45:26.420 forth conversation and build relationship. The same thing with micro communities is, is creating spaces 00:45:26.420 --> 00:45:32.020 where people can gather around, whether it be their neighborhood. Cause I said, um, there are some 00:45:32.020 --> 00:45:36.640 churches that launch Facebook groups and their neighborhood specific. So like, you know, we have 00:45:36.640 --> 00:45:40.160 different neighborhoods in Toronto. So you would have a Facebook group for each kind of different 00:45:40.160 --> 00:45:46.620 neighborhood. Um, you know, that's an opportunity again, to build relationship, um, and then shared 00:45:46.620 --> 00:45:50.920 experiences, you know, again, providing, uh, uh, whether it be something, you know, 00:45:50.920 --> 00:45:57.040 like a spiritually or something fun or social, you know, again, where people can build relationship 00:45:57.040 --> 00:46:03.480 and get, get beyond like, you know, just kind of the surface level, you know, the, the, 00:46:03.600 --> 00:46:08.480 I don't want to say shallow, but like get beyond, you know, the, the surface level, small talk, 00:46:08.540 --> 00:46:11.920 that's the word I'm looking for. It's good to be on the small talk and really just like, 00:46:11.920 --> 00:46:18.580 yeah, get to know people. Um, that's, I think a church, a church that can, that can build 00:46:18.580 --> 00:46:23.740 relationships with people. Um, I think that's, that's a church that, that will be a growing 00:46:23.740 --> 00:46:26.600 church. I don't know. That's maybe my opinion, but yeah. 00:46:27.020 --> 00:46:28.060 What are you thinking over there, Ray? 00:46:28.380 --> 00:46:32.320 This is interesting. I just had a conversation with my friend who's also a millennial this 00:46:32.320 --> 00:46:37.660 morning. And, uh, and he's, you know, he's, he's an average church attender online and, 00:46:37.660 --> 00:46:40.840 you know, he's a millennial as well. And we were talking about this and he was telling 00:46:40.840 --> 00:46:45.220 me about the guilt that he feels in terms of imposing his belief system on somebody else. 00:46:45.220 --> 00:46:49.100 And that's why he's afraid to evangelize. And I think part of the reason is we were kind 00:46:49.100 --> 00:46:53.340 of unearthing this discussion is we kind of taught people that evangelism is more about 00:46:53.340 --> 00:46:59.600 apologetics than sharing something that's benefiting you. Right. And sharing something that's like 00:46:59.600 --> 00:47:04.880 changed your life in a good way. So for instance, when all of us got a smartphone, we had no problem 00:47:04.880 --> 00:47:09.660 telling somebody about the joy of their, of the smartphone. And man, how much easier my life 00:47:09.660 --> 00:47:12.720 is, or how much more distracted I am, or Hey, look at these YouTube videos, or look at 00:47:12.720 --> 00:47:17.220 these, you know, these funny clips. We had no problem sharing that because we were talking 00:47:17.220 --> 00:47:21.040 about something that benefited us, even if they didn't want to hear it. Ah, stop talking 00:47:21.040 --> 00:47:24.500 about that. Oh, I've heard enough about that phone. But for some reason, when it comes to 00:47:24.500 --> 00:47:29.040 faith, all of a sudden that falls under the guise of, well, we don't discuss politics and 00:47:29.040 --> 00:47:33.940 we don't discuss religion because those are taboo because we feel like it's more about defense 00:47:33.940 --> 00:47:39.640 than it is about sharing something that's actually changing our life for the better. And I, you 00:47:39.640 --> 00:47:42.840 know, in terms of relationship, I think in a lot of ways, you know, relationship, even 00:47:42.840 --> 00:47:46.780 where relationship exists, I still feel like people are afraid to share their faith because 00:47:46.780 --> 00:47:51.260 they feel like it's more about defense or proving the other person wrong and not necessarily just 00:47:51.260 --> 00:47:55.740 about sharing something that's changed their life. And I think that's something that maybe 00:47:55.740 --> 00:47:59.580 Clevenie could speak into. Like, are there better ways that we can just talk about, Hey, look, 00:47:59.640 --> 00:48:05.720 this is what Jesus did for me. I think given your situation, if you would consider following 00:48:05.720 --> 00:48:11.520 him, look at what he could do for you too. Yeah. I think that's powerful. I, sometimes I'm a little 00:48:11.520 --> 00:48:18.540 bit hesitant at that approach just because, um, as someone who like strives to like be empathetic, 00:48:18.540 --> 00:48:23.100 it's like, you know, you do, you do want to, you know, if someone's going through a difficult time 00:48:23.100 --> 00:48:28.680 in their life, you do want to be able to sit with them in that moment and to, you know, just like, 00:48:28.860 --> 00:48:33.720 you know, not, you know, just be like, I don't know how helpful it is to kind of be like Jesus 00:48:33.720 --> 00:48:38.840 solves everything as much as I, as I believe that. Oh yeah. I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't know 00:48:38.840 --> 00:48:45.120 if it's, if it's, so again, I think the, the leading, I want to leave room for the Holy spirit 00:48:45.120 --> 00:48:53.500 because I think, I think in that moment, whatever it is, I think that's most helpful. I think you will 00:48:53.500 --> 00:49:00.280 be equipped to say, to say what that person needs to hear. Yeah. Is there, are there different ways? 00:49:00.900 --> 00:49:04.320 Yeah. I don't know. I think, yeah, I think it could be beneficial to kind of be like, yeah, 00:49:04.320 --> 00:49:11.360 this is how God is working in my life. But I, I don't know. I'm trying to think like I had a 00:49:11.360 --> 00:49:15.680 conversation with my best friend right now and I said, Hey, do you want to hear how God is working 00:49:15.680 --> 00:49:22.640 in my life right now? Like I just, I don't, yeah. How would that go? And maybe, maybe that's the 00:49:22.640 --> 00:49:26.800 thing. Maybe I'm overthinking it. Maybe I just need to just, just, just say it and just go from 00:49:26.800 --> 00:49:31.180 there. But, well, and that's where I think the campfire can kind of be, can kind of be a thing 00:49:31.180 --> 00:49:34.920 because right in the campfire, people don't just bring their interests together, but they bring 00:49:34.920 --> 00:49:40.040 their problems. And Hey, listen, I'm going through a hard time in my relationship. I'm going through 00:49:40.040 --> 00:49:44.200 this. Well, and that's where that introduces the thought process of, listen, how can I pray for you? 00:49:44.200 --> 00:49:48.660 As opposed to the fear of, well, I don't necessarily want to push my belief system, even though I know 00:49:48.660 --> 00:49:55.140 it's kind of what you need right now. Um, and you know, and so that's where I know that a lot of us 00:49:55.140 --> 00:49:59.980 kind of wrestle with that tension of, Hey, we live in a pluralistic society. We all want to like 00:49:59.980 --> 00:50:04.020 encourage people to have their beliefs, but at the same time, as a Christian, we really do believe 00:50:04.020 --> 00:50:09.160 that we have the answer. Yeah. I got to believe if, if we as Christians, if we lived our lives by the 00:50:09.160 --> 00:50:15.100 beatitudes at this point, I think the world would see us in a completely different light. And I think 00:50:15.100 --> 00:50:20.500 that would solve a lot of our problems. If you know, I'm trying to my desperate right now to even try to 00:50:20.500 --> 00:50:25.540 remember all of them, but blessed are the poor in spirit. Blessed are they that mourn, uh, blessed are 00:50:25.540 --> 00:50:31.900 the meek, blessed are the humble, blessed, you know, and it's just all of, of that. Um, if we presented 00:50:31.900 --> 00:50:37.980 our lives, our conversations in such a way where it's not, Hey, Jesus solves all your problems, 00:50:37.980 --> 00:50:44.520 let's go. But it's, it's, it's, it's more of, uh, I can relate to you. I've gone through the same 00:50:44.520 --> 00:50:53.580 things. This is what's helped me. And in meekness, I believe it can help you. Can I explain, can I show, 00:50:53.660 --> 00:50:59.340 can I share? No. Okay. Um, I'm, I'm here to help. Once again, I'm, I'm meek. I'm here to help you in 00:50:59.340 --> 00:51:06.580 this situation. Let me help you how I can. Um, and that's where I think that maybe some things got 00:51:06.580 --> 00:51:11.280 lost historically. Um, and it's not even like, I don't want to even make this about the millennials 00:51:11.280 --> 00:51:17.120 thing. I think that we, as, as generations we've, we've screwed up. Uh, we've, we've pushed too hard. 00:51:17.240 --> 00:51:22.600 We've, we've stated too loudly. We created the cancel culture before the social media, Twitter was 00:51:22.600 --> 00:51:29.240 even around. And as a result of us, us Christians, um, yeah, 2021 is hard. Uh, congratulations. We 00:51:29.240 --> 00:51:36.180 made it hard. Uh, and, and so unfortunately it's generations like yours that are going to maybe pay 00:51:36.180 --> 00:51:41.340 a little bit as a result of, and it's going to be a struggle to kind of work through, but we, as a 00:51:41.340 --> 00:51:47.560 church, we've got to work it through because the church, honestly, over 2000 years has faced probably 00:51:47.560 --> 00:51:52.380 larger challenges than the ones that's before us right now. Uh, and God's found a way to get it 00:51:52.380 --> 00:51:58.600 through. So God's going to get us through this as well. All right. Um, awesome. Any, any, I like, 00:51:58.660 --> 00:52:03.580 I'm kind of landing the plane here, but would love to keep going. Any, any closing thoughts, 00:52:03.640 --> 00:52:07.700 any ideas, uh, Ray, just as we're processing all this, what are you thinking right now? 00:52:08.160 --> 00:52:11.400 Well, you know, it's funny as you were talking about the Beatitudes, one of them is not 00:52:11.400 --> 00:52:16.360 blessed are they who dunk on the other person. And, and so we got to get away from that style of 00:52:16.360 --> 00:52:21.240 evangelism, right? Of man, I'm going to come in here with a hot take. That's going to rock everybody. 00:52:22.160 --> 00:52:27.540 Hey, but consider maybe blessed are they who spark conversation around a digital campfire 00:52:27.540 --> 00:52:32.020 in order for the sake of reaching somebody else for Jesus or for the sake of discipling 00:52:32.020 --> 00:52:36.260 somebody else. And so, you know, I think it's wonderful that you're sparking these ideas and 00:52:36.260 --> 00:52:40.560 these conversations within the church, because we need more of that. And not necessarily like 00:52:40.560 --> 00:52:44.620 you're saying in service hours, but really just more in private conversations that can also 00:52:44.620 --> 00:52:50.100 take place digitally that help people understand and how to get through life, especially in a time 00:52:50.100 --> 00:52:54.620 where we're, we're connected, but we're disconnected and we feel so far away. 00:52:54.980 --> 00:52:58.380 Clavan, as we're, thank you for jumping on this. This has been a great conversation. 00:52:58.540 --> 00:53:01.900 Just landing the plane here. Any, any closing thoughts from, from you? 00:53:02.160 --> 00:53:06.480 Uh, I think my closing thoughts is just the same of my closing thoughts in the article and that 00:53:06.480 --> 00:53:11.520 people just want, especially online, they want to be seen. They want to be known. They want to be 00:53:11.520 --> 00:53:17.500 heard. They want to be valued. They want to, they want to belong. And again, you know, as I say, 00:53:17.560 --> 00:53:23.500 like the solution, yes, Jesus. But again, you know, it's, it's thinking through as a church is 00:53:23.500 --> 00:53:30.760 like, how can we meet people where they are and, and, and connect with them, um, and relate to them 00:53:30.760 --> 00:53:35.580 and build relationships so that they do feel seen. They do feel heard. They do feel known. They feel 00:53:35.580 --> 00:53:40.980 valued. Um, I think that's, that's the church being a church. That's the church being the light of the 00:53:40.980 --> 00:53:46.140 online world. As I said, is, is meeting that need or pointing, pointing people towards Jesus who 00:53:46.140 --> 00:53:47.740 ultimately meets that need. 00:53:48.140 --> 00:53:53.780 Yeah. Amen. So many of our problems are solved by posture, uh, and within the church. I, I do believe 00:53:53.780 --> 00:53:59.300 that in 2021 and I've, I've loved this conversation, uh, with it. We're going to, Ray, we're going to 00:53:59.300 --> 00:54:05.600 have to bring some more millennials on. Like we, we do, we do the old guys. Well, in my, my, my phone 00:54:05.600 --> 00:54:10.240 book, my, my little black book of contacts has, has some guys who are dated maybe a little bit. We need 00:54:10.240 --> 00:54:14.680 to bring, bring in some, some young blood here. So love this conversation and looking forward to, 00:54:14.680 --> 00:54:20.040 uh, some more, uh, happening. So, Hey, uh, Clavan, once again, thank you for, for jumping on here. 00:54:20.320 --> 00:54:24.940 Uh, for Ray, for Clavan, this is Jeff with the church digital and stadia church planning. Thanks 00:54:24.940 --> 00:54:28.480 for jumping on the podcast and, uh, we'll see you on the next show. Y'all have a good day.