WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:04.040 Hey, welcome to the Church Digital Podcast, powered by State of Church Planning. 00:00:04.160 --> 00:00:04.620 Jeff here. 00:00:04.960 --> 00:00:07.700 I got to tell you, I want to pause here for a second. 00:00:08.260 --> 00:00:10.820 I love working for State of Church Planning. 00:00:10.960 --> 00:00:13.020 I love this organization, this family. 00:00:13.520 --> 00:00:19.860 I cannot imagine running with another organization for this COVID season, mid, post, wherever 00:00:19.860 --> 00:00:20.560 we are in it. 00:00:20.920 --> 00:00:27.560 Like the ability to help churches understand fidgetal, to take a physical church, help 00:00:27.560 --> 00:00:32.900 them develop a digital strategy, and then find ways to get it to work together has been 00:00:32.900 --> 00:00:33.380 beautiful. 00:00:33.540 --> 00:00:37.620 And we've done it several hundred times in this COVID season, and we're looking to ramp 00:00:37.620 --> 00:00:38.240 up again. 00:00:38.440 --> 00:00:41.400 And it just has been an awesome, awesome experience. 00:00:41.400 --> 00:00:47.800 But not only on the physical side going digital, I've loved the ability to help plant, to help 00:00:47.800 --> 00:00:53.660 start new digital-only churches, churches with no physical footprint. 00:00:53.840 --> 00:00:56.780 Just recently, we've launched one out of Stadia. 00:00:56.780 --> 00:01:00.420 It's called Lux, L-U-X, Digital Church. 00:01:01.020 --> 00:01:02.560 Lead pastor, church planner. 00:01:03.000 --> 00:01:04.080 His name is Mark Lutz. 00:01:04.240 --> 00:01:07.260 And his heart is to reach the video gamer. 00:01:07.400 --> 00:01:11.240 And so he's doing church as a streamer on Twitch. 00:01:11.420 --> 00:01:17.760 He's utilizing platforms like Discord and is engaging within that video game community, 00:01:17.900 --> 00:01:19.060 that board game community. 00:01:19.300 --> 00:01:22.620 And it has been awesome. 00:01:22.980 --> 00:01:28.100 So check out his website, Lux, L-U-X, digitalchurch.com. 00:01:28.140 --> 00:01:33.560 And if you're interested in doing a digital church or you're interested in a physical church 00:01:33.560 --> 00:01:37.880 that's interested in doing digital ministry, man, I want to talk with you. 00:01:37.980 --> 00:01:39.360 I would love to dialogue with you. 00:01:39.440 --> 00:01:40.120 Here's what I'm going to do. 00:01:40.180 --> 00:01:42.980 I'm literally going to give you my cell phone on this podcast. 00:01:43.640 --> 00:01:47.280 484-324-8724. 00:01:47.720 --> 00:01:50.620 I don't know how many podcasts give you their cell phone. 00:01:50.740 --> 00:01:51.240 I just did. 00:01:51.360 --> 00:01:54.320 484-324-8724. 00:01:54.600 --> 00:01:55.460 Reach back to me. 00:01:55.940 --> 00:01:56.620 Let me know. 00:01:57.420 --> 00:01:57.840 Hey, listen. 00:01:58.020 --> 00:02:03.360 And it's part of this where we won't get into with this next podcast episode. 00:02:03.840 --> 00:02:08.400 I have learned so much in the recent episodes because really, I'm starting to get into this. 00:02:08.920 --> 00:02:13.960 I really feel like there's something in the global perspective that we, the U.S. church, 00:02:14.040 --> 00:02:15.700 need to learn, need to understand. 00:02:16.060 --> 00:02:17.780 I'm pulling some of the Sam George stuff. 00:02:17.860 --> 00:02:20.560 If you have not heard that podcast, go back and listen to that. 00:02:20.560 --> 00:02:25.460 But I'm really challenged with this idea that we, the U.S. church, do not have all the 00:02:25.460 --> 00:02:30.280 answers we need to to solve the problems of the U.S. church and that there's lessons. 00:02:30.460 --> 00:02:37.180 There's ideas that we can learn internationally from other churches that may have solved some 00:02:37.180 --> 00:02:37.900 of these problems. 00:02:38.420 --> 00:02:42.600 And it's with one of those conversations that I come into this podcast episode right here. 00:02:43.000 --> 00:02:43.680 Justin Murph. 00:02:43.680 --> 00:02:51.540 Now, Justin is with Virtual Church Fellowship, MENA Collective, is very active in supporting 00:02:51.540 --> 00:02:55.340 and resourcing the Middle East church. 00:02:55.460 --> 00:03:00.520 Not like sending white people over to go be planters and things. 00:03:01.060 --> 00:03:05.860 Justin's very passionate and his organizations are very passionate about working with natives 00:03:05.860 --> 00:03:12.620 in those areas and then empowering them to be church planters, to be the pastors of churches 00:03:12.620 --> 00:03:13.320 in those areas. 00:03:13.460 --> 00:03:19.500 Now, you're asking me, hey, what does the Middle East have to do with anything with talking 00:03:19.500 --> 00:03:20.500 digital church? 00:03:21.100 --> 00:03:26.380 And so I was having a conversation with Justin off air and I was sharing with him how cool 00:03:26.380 --> 00:03:27.480 I thought I was. 00:03:27.820 --> 00:03:32.100 Maybe I was bragging a little bit too much, honestly, but talking about this digital only 00:03:32.100 --> 00:03:36.880 expression of church and how awesome it is that we, Stadia, are getting to start planting. 00:03:37.300 --> 00:03:42.620 And there's maybe 25, maybe 30 of these things in the nation, really, that are operating at 00:03:42.620 --> 00:03:43.760 some significant level. 00:03:43.920 --> 00:03:44.960 And hey, look at us. 00:03:45.060 --> 00:03:46.480 Like, we're getting it going. 00:03:46.600 --> 00:03:47.340 Isn't this great? 00:03:48.200 --> 00:03:54.440 And off air, Justin says to me, hey, Jeff, you know who else is doing digital church planting 00:03:54.440 --> 00:03:55.280 really well? 00:03:55.920 --> 00:03:56.160 Who? 00:03:56.320 --> 00:03:56.980 Justin, tell me. 00:03:57.000 --> 00:03:57.880 I'd love to learn from them. 00:03:58.920 --> 00:04:04.540 Every pastor in the Middle East, every one of them, all of them are doing digital only 00:04:04.540 --> 00:04:05.480 church planting. 00:04:05.760 --> 00:04:07.460 They're doing digital only churches. 00:04:07.600 --> 00:04:11.080 They're doing digital discipleship because that's all they have. 00:04:11.200 --> 00:04:14.160 That's the only option that's available to them. 00:04:14.160 --> 00:04:20.060 And so while we're trying to prove whether or not digital disciple-making works here in the 00:04:20.060 --> 00:04:25.940 United States, the Middle East church is setting an example of saying, hey, what are y'all 00:04:25.940 --> 00:04:26.740 griping about? 00:04:26.840 --> 00:04:28.720 Like, it's working over here. 00:04:29.140 --> 00:04:31.500 So I really wanted to do a podcast. 00:04:31.620 --> 00:04:34.280 We ended up getting together with Justin and exploring some of this. 00:04:34.340 --> 00:04:37.020 Hey, how is global using digital? 00:04:37.660 --> 00:04:39.980 How is global discipleship working? 00:04:40.280 --> 00:04:45.080 What lessons do we, the United States Church, need to learn on how to do this? 00:04:45.140 --> 00:04:48.620 And, you know, whatever other nation, church you are, because we all need to learn from 00:04:48.620 --> 00:04:48.820 this. 00:04:48.880 --> 00:04:49.880 So here's what we're doing. 00:04:49.960 --> 00:04:54.240 We're bringing Justin Murph from Virtual Church Fellowship into the conversation. 00:04:54.360 --> 00:04:58.260 We're bringing myself, Jeff, with the Church Digital, and of course, Stadia Church Planting 00:04:58.260 --> 00:05:05.060 in a conversation that I'm essentially calling what the global church can teach us on digital 00:05:05.060 --> 00:05:05.980 discipleship. 00:05:06.720 --> 00:05:07.820 Okay, everybody, here you go. 00:05:07.820 --> 00:05:14.280 So I serve as the chairman of Virtual Church Fellowship, and we started Virtual Church Fellowship 00:05:14.280 --> 00:05:21.640 because we wanted to be able to support virtual churches that are in the Middle East, North 00:05:21.640 --> 00:05:23.520 Africa, Turkey, and Pakistan. 00:05:23.880 --> 00:05:29.320 And I've been a part of a ministry that has been helping to resource more than 160 ministry 00:05:29.320 --> 00:05:33.560 partners throughout the Middle East and that same region called the MENA Collective. 00:05:34.200 --> 00:05:38.740 And, you know, we began to notice there was some really amazing things happening in the 00:05:38.740 --> 00:05:42.260 Middle East that needed some specific resourcing when it comes to virtual churches. 00:05:42.620 --> 00:05:49.180 And yet, at the same time, what's been really neat is, whereas maybe a digital presence for 00:05:49.180 --> 00:05:53.960 ministries is kind of a post-COVID phenomenon, and certainly there's been, you know, churches 00:05:53.960 --> 00:05:56.320 going online for the better part of a decade now. 00:05:57.240 --> 00:06:00.680 Over in the Middle East, they've been doing it for close to 20 years because they've had 00:06:00.680 --> 00:06:00.940 to. 00:06:01.400 --> 00:06:03.260 They've not had a choice in some of these countries. 00:06:03.500 --> 00:06:07.240 And so, you know, that's how we kind of got started. 00:06:07.400 --> 00:06:11.980 But I come from a kind of a unique ministry blend background where I've worked in international 00:06:11.980 --> 00:06:15.440 affairs and TV and media and ministry. 00:06:15.620 --> 00:06:21.620 And so, those kind of three worlds colliding, and that's really what led to kind of starting 00:06:21.620 --> 00:06:26.820 MENA Collective, and then out of MENA Collective, just identifying these churches that really 00:06:26.820 --> 00:06:31.900 needed some more networking, some support, some resourcing, and starting VCF from there. 00:06:32.460 --> 00:06:37.080 Yeah, that right there has been a radical awakening for me. 00:06:37.080 --> 00:06:44.160 I was not aware that the digital church had as much effect and was being so effective and 00:06:44.160 --> 00:06:46.560 had the influence that it had globally. 00:06:46.720 --> 00:06:54.440 I was speaking with a Muslim native pastor here in America who's running a Muslim church, 00:06:54.660 --> 00:06:57.900 a Muslim Christian church, reaching Muslims. 00:06:58.220 --> 00:07:02.280 And I asked him, you know, I was telling him about some digital churches and some of the 00:07:02.280 --> 00:07:03.340 things that we're doing. 00:07:03.340 --> 00:07:09.840 And, you know, kept using language like bleeding edge, newness, and he kind of stopped me. 00:07:10.140 --> 00:07:15.220 And he's like, hey, Jeff, you know who's doing digital churches like you're describing? 00:07:16.000 --> 00:07:16.800 And I said, who? 00:07:17.140 --> 00:07:20.200 He said, literally every Muslim pastor in the Middle East. 00:07:20.860 --> 00:07:22.180 That's all they have. 00:07:22.560 --> 00:07:26.400 And so, what you're considering is this like new bleeding edge thing in the US. 00:07:26.900 --> 00:07:29.560 Yeah, they've been doing that way for years. 00:07:30.020 --> 00:07:32.020 And collectively, my head exploded. 00:07:32.020 --> 00:07:39.000 I just, I had no idea overseas we're looking at churches that don't have a physical footprint. 00:07:39.520 --> 00:07:44.320 And we've got pastors that are doing digital ministry because, well, that's the only way 00:07:44.320 --> 00:07:46.420 that they can effectively do ministry. 00:07:46.620 --> 00:07:49.420 Can you, like, can you share some examples, some stories? 00:07:49.580 --> 00:07:52.060 Like, tell, elaborate some on that, sir. 00:07:52.080 --> 00:07:53.500 I would love to unpack that. 00:07:54.000 --> 00:07:54.520 Yeah, absolutely. 00:07:54.640 --> 00:07:59.580 So, let's start with the most, probably the most forward thinking of the virtual churches, 00:07:59.680 --> 00:08:02.560 which would be those that have come out of Iran. 00:08:02.680 --> 00:08:09.920 Now, in Iran, it's a nation that's officially 99% Muslim, but yet you have this indigenous church 00:08:09.920 --> 00:08:14.260 that's risen up from people who were that background, but now are Christian. 00:08:14.440 --> 00:08:22.700 So, starting in 2002, actually, using Yahoo Instant Messenger, they actually started creating this 00:08:22.700 --> 00:08:28.720 virtual church inside of Iran using Yahoo Instant Messenger, reaching literally thousands of 00:08:28.720 --> 00:08:29.060 people. 00:08:29.420 --> 00:08:31.940 And that same church has grown and grown and grown. 00:08:32.460 --> 00:08:36.040 And today, the expression of that church is called My Kalisa. 00:08:36.200 --> 00:08:43.180 And it's a combination of ministry that is partly sermons delivered through satellite television 00:08:43.180 --> 00:08:45.720 and the internet, and then groups that are meeting. 00:08:46.020 --> 00:08:50.580 And it's just amazing to see how this kind of decentralized church model, right? 00:08:50.700 --> 00:08:55.140 Here in the West, we think, you know, step one, build your giant mega building. 00:08:55.500 --> 00:08:59.780 Step two, broadcast it on television and satellite and do a webcast. 00:09:00.100 --> 00:09:03.220 Step three, you know, go plant more giant buildings elsewhere. 00:09:03.740 --> 00:09:06.720 But in the Middle East, we've decentralized that model. 00:09:07.000 --> 00:09:12.960 And it's been really, that's the way that churches have been going, largely because they 00:09:12.960 --> 00:09:17.380 can't be big because then they get, catch the attention of the police and the government. 00:09:17.960 --> 00:09:25.660 But also, the idea of simply going to a church, punching your ticket and going home on a Sunday 00:09:25.660 --> 00:09:32.660 service or Friday or Saturday over there is so foreign because they really treasure community. 00:09:33.220 --> 00:09:38.160 There's this sense in the Middle East of what's called uma or community, right? 00:09:38.460 --> 00:09:40.320 And you want to belong to an uma. 00:09:40.500 --> 00:09:41.900 You want to belong to a community. 00:09:42.700 --> 00:09:49.980 And that's a sweet, precious thing that in the U.S., we kind of just don't really focus 00:09:49.980 --> 00:09:50.520 on, you know? 00:09:50.560 --> 00:09:55.140 I mean, we may be a part of a church, but it's just a place we go to on Sunday. 00:09:55.440 --> 00:09:57.900 Whereas over there, like, that is your family. 00:09:57.960 --> 00:10:03.680 Because when you accept Christ, particularly in that region, right, you lose your family. 00:10:03.800 --> 00:10:05.660 You lose maybe your job. 00:10:05.760 --> 00:10:07.720 You lose potentially even your life. 00:10:07.800 --> 00:10:11.680 And so when you do find other believers, man, you want to be together. 00:10:11.960 --> 00:10:17.900 And yet, like COVID, they've not been able to gather physically in all times and all places. 00:10:18.020 --> 00:10:23.960 And so, you know, it became this sense of, okay, well, how do we create a sense of community 00:10:23.960 --> 00:10:25.540 yet doing it digitally? 00:10:25.540 --> 00:10:30.900 And so for the better part of a decade, ministries in the region have been trying to solve this 00:10:30.900 --> 00:10:31.240 problem. 00:10:31.620 --> 00:10:32.980 So we look at the New Testament. 00:10:33.180 --> 00:10:36.780 We see between the Great Commission and the Great Commandment, right, the five functions 00:10:36.780 --> 00:10:37.600 of a healthy church. 00:10:38.040 --> 00:10:39.660 Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, and soul. 00:10:39.940 --> 00:10:40.160 Worship. 00:10:40.660 --> 00:10:41.680 Love your neighbor as yourself. 00:10:41.920 --> 00:10:42.640 Service and ministry. 00:10:43.060 --> 00:10:44.380 And the Great Commission, right? 00:10:44.420 --> 00:10:45.260 Going to all the nations. 00:10:45.780 --> 00:10:46.140 Evangelism. 00:10:46.820 --> 00:10:48.180 Making disciples, right? 00:10:48.720 --> 00:10:49.080 Discipleship. 00:10:49.480 --> 00:10:50.660 And fellowship. 00:10:51.380 --> 00:10:52.500 Baptizing them, right? 00:10:52.540 --> 00:10:54.520 And so that's the mark of bringing them in. 00:10:55.060 --> 00:10:56.380 And so we see those five things. 00:10:56.500 --> 00:10:59.120 Worship, service, evangelism, fellowship, and discipleship. 00:10:59.520 --> 00:11:03.700 And the question that the church in the Middle East has been asking is, how can we do all 00:11:03.700 --> 00:11:06.860 five of those things in a digital setting? 00:11:07.600 --> 00:11:13.320 And so things like taking Alpha online, where, you know, I can remember hearing Nikki Gumbel 00:11:13.320 --> 00:11:15.320 say that we will never do Alpha online. 00:11:15.600 --> 00:11:19.860 And yet, you know, my friends at Alpha in the Middle East are telling us these stories of 00:11:19.860 --> 00:11:24.320 enclosed countries, countries that you would never in a million years think. 00:11:24.820 --> 00:11:30.480 There are literally hundreds of Alpha groups meeting online every single week just because 00:11:30.480 --> 00:11:34.320 the doors open and people are gathering online in community. 00:11:34.460 --> 00:11:36.020 It's not a foreign concept to them. 00:11:36.080 --> 00:11:36.880 They've been doing it. 00:11:36.980 --> 00:11:40.180 So we're seeing the ground has been tilled for years. 00:11:40.420 --> 00:11:42.740 Now we're starting to see a harvest grow out of it. 00:11:42.880 --> 00:11:48.040 And the church, thankfully, is positioned to actually reap the benefits of that harvest 00:11:48.040 --> 00:11:51.100 right now through the digital church that's growing. 00:11:51.800 --> 00:11:54.840 So it's this like, and I hear this, digital church. 00:11:54.940 --> 00:11:59.800 Are we saying that there are no, and forgive me, ignorance 100% here. 00:11:59.900 --> 00:12:02.440 A lot of times with the podcast, I want to learn, right? 00:12:02.680 --> 00:12:04.080 That's why we're having these conversations. 00:12:04.460 --> 00:12:06.780 Are we literally saying that there is no church building? 00:12:07.340 --> 00:12:10.980 Like over there, if you have a church building, it's drawing attention. 00:12:11.620 --> 00:12:15.800 And so within the Middle East area, there is no physical church building. 00:12:16.300 --> 00:12:22.880 100% of the churches are house churches, underground churches, digital representation, something like that. 00:12:23.380 --> 00:12:24.440 It depends on the country. 00:12:24.780 --> 00:12:31.320 And so, you know, there are countries like Egypt, like Lebanon, like Jordan, where the church does exist. 00:12:31.320 --> 00:12:32.700 And they do have buildings. 00:12:32.700 --> 00:12:37.400 And most people are surprised to learn they have some varying degree of religious freedom and autonomy. 00:12:38.820 --> 00:12:42.400 Egypt is a great example that Lebanon most certainly is an example of that. 00:12:42.740 --> 00:12:47.900 But then you have countries like Algeria, which has had a strong evangelical presence for several hundred years. 00:12:48.220 --> 00:12:56.440 And yet, in, of course, a Catholic or Orthodox presence for well close to 2,000 years, quite frankly, in Algeria. 00:12:57.040 --> 00:12:59.960 Keep in mind, that's where Augustine of Hippo is from, right? 00:13:00.080 --> 00:13:04.520 And so, you know, a lot of our great early Christian thinkers came from North Africa. 00:13:05.040 --> 00:13:07.520 Cyprian, Augustine of Hippo, right? 00:13:07.560 --> 00:13:09.880 A lot of these guys, that was home for them. 00:13:10.060 --> 00:13:11.680 Mark was from Libya, right? 00:13:11.780 --> 00:13:13.560 The guy who wrote the Gospel of Mark. 00:13:14.340 --> 00:13:18.880 And so, this part of the world is not strangers to Christianity. 00:13:18.880 --> 00:13:26.380 It was actually where Christianity began long before it came to Rome and Europe and, you know, Germany and the UK, right? 00:13:26.740 --> 00:13:35.280 So, in that part of the world, they are experiencing a new revival and a renaissance of people rediscovering their Christian roots. 00:13:35.800 --> 00:13:40.420 And the fact that early Christian thought began in North Africa. 00:13:40.420 --> 00:13:45.120 Well, today, in, like, Algeria, for example, churches are being shut down. 00:13:45.520 --> 00:13:55.560 And so, while they've had buildings, the religious environment is getting such that now Christian churches are beginning to be closed, especially if they're evangelical Protestant churches. 00:13:56.180 --> 00:13:58.320 So, what is their option to gather? 00:13:58.400 --> 00:13:59.460 Well, they've had to go online. 00:13:59.780 --> 00:14:00.540 They've pivoted. 00:14:00.600 --> 00:14:03.100 They've made the great pivot, not because of COVID. 00:14:03.220 --> 00:14:07.320 They were doing it a year before because government authorities were shutting their buildings down. 00:14:07.460 --> 00:14:10.600 In countries like Iran, yes, that is true. 00:14:10.660 --> 00:14:12.640 They have had to go entirely online. 00:14:12.860 --> 00:14:16.940 There is no buildings that are open to indigenous native believers. 00:14:17.100 --> 00:14:20.980 There might be a few churches that are still open to Westerners who live there. 00:14:21.620 --> 00:14:28.920 But, for the most part, any of those churches, when we talk about new churches being built, you've heard about this underground church, right? 00:14:28.960 --> 00:14:30.840 And we're familiar with that term from all over the world. 00:14:30.940 --> 00:14:39.640 What we're talking about, what the VCF does specifically in the Middle East, North Africa, MENA region, is actually help build the above-ground church. 00:14:40.020 --> 00:14:57.620 And so, we're looking at creating this virtual church environment where there are no buildings, but it's a service, it's a worship team, it's a prayer ministry, it's fellowship, discipleship, evangelism, all of that happening in an online environment where, you know, the Facebook page becomes our foyer, right? 00:14:57.620 --> 00:15:03.000 And the Facebook group becomes the home group that's meeting in a living room, and the Zoom becomes our sanctuary. 00:15:03.500 --> 00:15:06.400 And all of these different aspects and tools that we're using together. 00:15:07.440 --> 00:15:08.620 Here's what's really exciting. 00:15:09.220 --> 00:15:15.320 One of the biggest dangers of the underground church movement is a lack of equipping and a lack of training. 00:15:15.940 --> 00:15:24.960 So, you have a pastor who has a copy of the Jesus film and the Gospel of John, and praise the Lord for that, but he has no training, formation, no discipleship, no continuing feeding. 00:15:25.520 --> 00:15:31.880 But somewhere, somehow, someway, somebody gave him those two resources and said, great, now you're a pastor, go start a house church. 00:15:32.620 --> 00:15:47.560 And then we're shocked when ministries that work in the region spend just as much time actually correcting bad theology from poorly trained house church pastors as they do actually engaging with seekers from the majority background who really want to know, is the Bible real? 00:15:47.840 --> 00:15:48.580 Who is Jesus? 00:15:48.760 --> 00:15:49.480 What's the Trinity? 00:15:50.000 --> 00:15:50.660 What is sin? 00:15:50.920 --> 00:15:52.080 How do I get to know God? 00:15:52.440 --> 00:15:55.800 And those are the conversations we want those ministries to have, right? 00:15:56.700 --> 00:16:04.280 Now, they need to correct the bad theology, but man, what if we could actually kind of reinvent the conversation? 00:16:04.620 --> 00:16:15.380 And as we're now building out the virtual churches in the region, we're able to do that by providing consistent training, discipleship, mentorship, and yes, even equipment, right? 00:16:15.420 --> 00:16:20.360 The radio, the microphone, the iPhone that we're recording on, you know, whatever. 00:16:20.760 --> 00:16:28.900 And really equip these pastors to not just have the technical skills, but also the ongoing continual theological education. 00:16:29.520 --> 00:16:36.180 And yes, we use encrypted services and things like Zoom where it's, you know, a little bit safer and VPNs and all these other things. 00:16:37.020 --> 00:16:38.080 And there is a risk. 00:16:38.260 --> 00:16:43.780 There certainly is a risk for these pastors who are doing this in country, but they take the risk. 00:16:44.100 --> 00:16:54.880 And it's a risk that many of us in the West will never know, but we may end up coming to find some of the obstacles in our near future. 00:16:55.200 --> 00:17:02.880 You know, I look at a number of churches that are concerned about, you know, am I going to be able to preach, you know, a particular topic from the pulpit? 00:17:03.260 --> 00:17:04.320 Am I going to get shut down? 00:17:04.560 --> 00:17:14.480 Is the city going to change the rules in our, you know, like Houston did for a season and make pastors actually submit their sermons in advance to the mayor's office for approval? 00:17:15.260 --> 00:17:19.080 You know, that thankfully that got overturned and shut down in Houston a couple of years ago. 00:17:19.480 --> 00:17:22.240 But what if we saw that happen here, right? 00:17:22.540 --> 00:17:28.560 Well, this is where the virtual church and having these things established really does make sense. 00:17:28.560 --> 00:17:38.980 And actually, instead of just trying to reinvent the wheel, maybe the church in the West can actually learn a lot from our brothers and sisters who are pastoring in the Middle East. 00:17:39.220 --> 00:17:40.680 Now you're just talking crazy. 00:17:40.820 --> 00:17:45.260 Wait, you want the church in the West to learn something from what's happening overseas? 00:17:45.720 --> 00:17:46.940 I'm speaking facetious. 00:17:47.060 --> 00:17:48.740 We've done podcasts on this recently. 00:17:49.020 --> 00:17:55.960 But I, man, because honestly, I hear so much difficulty. 00:17:56.360 --> 00:18:01.780 Like even post-COVID, church, Jeff, Zoom doesn't work for small groups. 00:18:03.060 --> 00:18:08.820 Zoom fatigue, you can't, you can't spiritually develop someone without being in the same space. 00:18:08.820 --> 00:18:16.440 But what you're, I mean, you're talking about like spiritually developing someone out of necessity digitally. 00:18:16.700 --> 00:18:21.940 You're talking about curing and working through bad theology digitally. 00:18:22.180 --> 00:18:27.940 You're talking about forming the spiritual condition of someone using digital tools. 00:18:28.140 --> 00:18:35.680 And these are things that here in the United States we've, we've struggled with because Ecclesia is defined only by physical space. 00:18:35.680 --> 00:18:37.260 And maybe we've had it a little too easy. 00:18:37.420 --> 00:18:44.740 But what we're discovering here is some of our overseas brothers and sisters in Christ, well, they haven't had it that easy. 00:18:44.740 --> 00:18:47.680 And they've had to be innovative in some areas. 00:18:47.680 --> 00:18:53.440 And evidently, it sounds like they've been quite successful with doing it almost to the betterment of their churches. 00:18:54.200 --> 00:18:57.000 Like, I mean, I don't want to go crazy here, but go ahead. 00:18:57.060 --> 00:18:58.160 I'll ask the crazy question in a second. 00:18:58.260 --> 00:18:59.420 I want to hear what you have to say, Justin. 00:19:00.280 --> 00:19:12.700 Well, so here's one of the things that's really interesting, because when people talk about Ecclesia, you know, if you look in the Greek and you look in the New Testament and you see every time that the term is used, Ecclesia, it means a gathering of people. 00:19:13.180 --> 00:19:15.580 It never denotes a building, right? 00:19:15.660 --> 00:19:16.840 It means a gathering of people. 00:19:17.100 --> 00:19:25.420 Well, technology, which, you know, in my personal opinion, I believe that technology is under the lordship of Christ, right? 00:19:25.520 --> 00:19:29.780 Everything is under the subjugation of God, right? 00:19:29.860 --> 00:19:32.660 So it's not like he's like, man, how did they create Zoom? 00:19:32.720 --> 00:19:33.480 That's amazing. 00:19:34.100 --> 00:19:36.900 You know, I don't imagine that's the conversation God's having, right? 00:19:36.900 --> 00:19:38.640 He knows that this exists. 00:19:38.740 --> 00:19:39.820 He allows it to exist. 00:19:39.900 --> 00:19:40.700 And guess what? 00:19:40.720 --> 00:19:46.440 We're able to use the technology to advance the gospel like we've never seen in our lifetime, right? 00:19:46.440 --> 00:19:48.980 This is the more innovative than the printing press. 00:19:49.620 --> 00:19:53.740 And so we're able to actually advance and see the gospel move forward in tremendous ways. 00:19:53.840 --> 00:20:06.260 Well, when it comes to these conversations, because, you know, the term Ecclesia means a gathering of people, it could equally mean a gathering of people online. 00:20:06.940 --> 00:20:09.100 And then you take into it a step further. 00:20:09.700 --> 00:20:14.860 If we believe that God is really omnipresent, that there's nowhere in the world where God isn't, right? 00:20:14.860 --> 00:20:17.860 He is everywhere simultaneously at the same time. 00:20:18.360 --> 00:20:25.200 And this gets even more tricky when we start talking about things like baptism and communion and, you know, Lord's Supper, right? 00:20:25.240 --> 00:20:25.940 The sacraments. 00:20:27.500 --> 00:20:33.000 Those things, there's an active involvement of the Holy Spirit, who also is omnipresent. 00:20:33.200 --> 00:20:47.880 And so if God is there, if the Spirit of the Lord is there, then it doesn't matter if you're in Miami and I'm here in the D.C. area or our brothers or sisters are over in Saudi Arabia or Yemen or in Iran or in Germany or wherever, right? 00:20:48.600 --> 00:20:49.280 God is there. 00:20:49.340 --> 00:20:50.140 It's the same God. 00:20:50.200 --> 00:20:51.280 We're worshiping the same God. 00:20:51.360 --> 00:20:54.980 And so the Holy Spirit is still moving in the same room, in the same space with us. 00:20:55.720 --> 00:21:00.700 And so because of that, when we get that and we really believe it, right? 00:21:00.720 --> 00:21:02.200 Like we really honestly believe it. 00:21:02.260 --> 00:21:05.980 It actually becomes almost dangerous to say God can't, right? 00:21:06.060 --> 00:21:08.720 Oh, God can't make that an authentic worship. 00:21:08.880 --> 00:21:12.020 Oh, God can't use that to disciple people, right? 00:21:12.080 --> 00:21:14.500 Man, I don't have the guts to say that. 00:21:14.600 --> 00:21:15.120 No way. 00:21:15.680 --> 00:21:20.780 You know, I think anything's possible with God and we're seeing it happen every single day in the region. 00:21:20.920 --> 00:21:27.340 Lives being transformed, people coming to faith, people accepting Christ, people beginning a discipleship journey. 00:21:28.180 --> 00:21:31.380 And it's authentic, it's deep, it's real. 00:21:32.060 --> 00:21:34.460 And when we see that, lives transformed. 00:21:34.640 --> 00:21:37.060 Here's the challenge that I always encourage our people. 00:21:37.760 --> 00:21:39.660 We're not just making baby Christians. 00:21:39.660 --> 00:21:41.520 We want to make disciple making disciples. 00:21:42.080 --> 00:21:43.240 That's the end goal. 00:21:44.220 --> 00:21:47.360 And so, you know, the question isn't join a small group. 00:21:47.420 --> 00:21:53.640 The question is join a small group, be trained and equipped and be prepared to go out in a few months and start a small group of your own. 00:21:55.100 --> 00:22:00.800 Well, how many people would actually stick around in our physical churches if that was the invitation that we asked them? 00:22:00.860 --> 00:22:03.280 Hey, welcome to First Christian Church, whatever. 00:22:03.640 --> 00:22:04.780 We're so excited you're here. 00:22:05.240 --> 00:22:06.560 Join this new members class. 00:22:06.740 --> 00:22:07.720 Sit in a Sunday school. 00:22:07.800 --> 00:22:10.920 Oh, and by the way, in three months time, you're going to be launching your own Sunday school. 00:22:11.080 --> 00:22:11.960 Welcome, right? 00:22:12.520 --> 00:22:13.900 Like, man, they'd run for the door. 00:22:14.380 --> 00:22:18.660 But in a virtual environment, those are the ways that we get people involved. 00:22:18.780 --> 00:22:23.220 We have them serve as digital ushers and digital greeters, you know, in the Facebook chatter and Instagram. 00:22:23.460 --> 00:22:28.420 We have them serve as prayer partners and prayer counselors where they're praying for people in real time prayer requests. 00:22:28.940 --> 00:22:34.620 They're also funneling those urgent needs to those of us, you know, pastors, right, who are part of the ministries. 00:22:35.320 --> 00:22:41.160 And then in the discipleship groups, just to see, you know, how they're moving in discipling. 00:22:41.620 --> 00:22:45.520 And these churches, a lot of times, have created different funnels for discipleship. 00:22:45.600 --> 00:22:47.980 They know who's a Christian background believer. 00:22:47.980 --> 00:22:54.540 We call it a CBB versus who is a majority background believer, MBB, versus who's a seeker, right? 00:22:55.040 --> 00:23:04.800 And then having to discern, are they genuinely seeking after Christ or are they just here to cause trouble and, you know, recite verses of other holy books, right? 00:23:04.800 --> 00:23:09.800 And so, and if they are, great, how do we deal with that person in a loving Christ-like way? 00:23:10.980 --> 00:23:14.680 And so, these are some great challenges that we face all the time. 00:23:14.820 --> 00:23:18.960 And it's just exciting to see how God is moving in this area. 00:23:19.440 --> 00:23:25.400 You know, here in America, we've talked about multimodal, different types of models of church post-COVID. 00:23:25.700 --> 00:23:33.540 You know, it feels like there's, you know, the physical church, established church, the giga church, the multi-site church, the micro church, the house church. 00:23:33.760 --> 00:23:37.080 But, you know, there's all these different models, even in context of digital. 00:23:37.080 --> 00:23:43.660 I can probably describe 25 different effective ways that the church can do that, can utilize digital. 00:23:44.960 --> 00:23:49.160 Overseas is especially like in the Middle East and some of this region that you're more comfortable with. 00:23:49.760 --> 00:23:53.740 Is there, are there multiple models to reach people? 00:23:53.880 --> 00:23:58.440 Is it just like a particular model that's more effectively and more used? 00:23:58.620 --> 00:24:02.740 Or is it, is there really some of the variances that we kind of see here in America? 00:24:02.780 --> 00:24:09.060 Yeah. I mean, there's everything from, I have a church in Beirut that uses Life Church's church online platform. 00:24:09.740 --> 00:24:11.640 And that's what they use as their, their main tool. 00:24:11.720 --> 00:24:14.000 Oh yeah. We have another church in Turkey that does the same thing. 00:24:14.060 --> 00:24:16.820 They use Life Church platform and it works beautifully over there. 00:24:16.860 --> 00:24:18.660 And they're engaging and they're communicating. 00:24:18.800 --> 00:24:19.820 It's in Turkish or Arabic. 00:24:20.520 --> 00:24:22.480 But those are some of the things that are available. 00:24:22.840 --> 00:24:25.480 You know, there, there are, there are tools and technologies. 00:24:25.800 --> 00:24:27.620 Now those countries, different scenario. 00:24:27.840 --> 00:24:28.520 Churches are legal. 00:24:28.940 --> 00:24:29.780 They're public. 00:24:29.880 --> 00:24:30.640 They're very open. 00:24:31.280 --> 00:24:37.340 We have other parts of the world where, and in our region in particular, where the church is less legal. 00:24:37.940 --> 00:24:42.700 And in those areas, you know, they're using a number of different tools, platforms, models. 00:24:43.700 --> 00:24:52.880 All the churches, when you look at them, they have kind of a characteristic approach where they've said, okay, there are three general personas or types of people that we as a church are called to reach. 00:24:53.560 --> 00:25:00.300 Members, those who are already a part of our fellowship, either physically or, you know, because of COVID or having to do this remotely anyways. 00:25:00.840 --> 00:25:03.840 Then there's the prospective members of our church. 00:25:03.960 --> 00:25:07.240 Those who are, they have a relationship with Jesus, but they may not have a church home. 00:25:07.600 --> 00:25:17.620 And that can be everybody from a historic Christian background person to a brand new believer, to a person who's become a refugee from another country, but, but was a Christian beforehand, right? 00:25:18.320 --> 00:25:21.640 And so that's, that's another persona that we're trying to reach. 00:25:21.640 --> 00:25:23.040 And then the third is the seeker. 00:25:23.760 --> 00:25:27.040 And for each country, that is going to look a little bit different. 00:25:27.140 --> 00:25:28.980 And for each church, it's going to look a little bit different. 00:25:29.700 --> 00:25:34.680 And so the engagement, the initial platform for engagement is going to be different for each one of those, right? 00:25:35.000 --> 00:25:45.060 It may be YouTube or Facebook or Instagram, but then it goes very quickly into a WhatsApp group or into a signal, you know, or wire communication. 00:25:45.460 --> 00:25:51.340 And then eventually it may go into a Zoom small group or discipleship group, you know, different. 00:25:51.640 --> 00:25:57.940 Different platforms, different ministries, but kind of generally speaking, you know, they're, they're reaching three diverse, different groups. 00:25:58.040 --> 00:25:59.240 They have their team set up. 00:25:59.480 --> 00:26:05.480 And that's part of what VCF does is we also help them in building that out, figuring out the right platform. 00:26:05.480 --> 00:26:07.040 We liken it to fishing, right? 00:26:07.700 --> 00:26:11.220 You know, I love the analogy of being, we're digital fishers of men. 00:26:11.840 --> 00:26:21.880 And there's so much we can learn from a fisherman in that, you know, the fisherman, once he's identified what kind of fish he's going after, that's going to determine everything else, right? 00:26:21.880 --> 00:26:26.300 The rod, the reel, the bait, the tackle, the platform that he uses, right? 00:26:26.380 --> 00:26:32.220 When to go fishing, you know, if I'm trying to go after, you and I, we live out, you know, here on the Atlantic, right? 00:26:32.440 --> 00:26:39.800 So if we're going after a swordfish, the last thing we want to do is try to go out in a canoe in midday with a fly rod, right? 00:26:40.280 --> 00:26:42.340 People would look at us like we are completely nuts. 00:26:42.800 --> 00:26:45.640 Well, it's because we want to make data-informed decisions. 00:26:46.460 --> 00:26:57.160 And so we train all of our partners to do that, to make those wise, data-informed decisions, build the right platform, use the right hook and equipment needed. 00:26:57.260 --> 00:27:12.780 And, you know what, praise God that we're able to actually do this and repeat that process and engage thousands of people when, you know, before, maybe they could only reach their small neighborhood or their neighbors if they trusted them in the traditional house church model. 00:27:13.360 --> 00:27:29.680 And so what's been amazing is to see these house church pastors who have really stepped forward, they're getting trained and equipped, and now instead of just reaching, you know, their neighborhood, they are burdened to reach their city, but they're equipped to do it safely in ways they've never been able to do it before. 00:27:30.660 --> 00:27:32.320 I'll tell you one other story, Jeff. 00:27:32.320 --> 00:27:48.200 If I had a pastor reach out to me, he's in Pakistan, and he's in a particular part of the country where he is of a substantial minority, and this is not a good area in the country for it to be a Christian. 00:27:48.880 --> 00:28:05.760 And yet he literally drives four hours one way near a neighboring country just so that he can be there because the internet's a little bit better than his house, and he speaks in a different dialect, in a different language. 00:28:06.000 --> 00:28:15.440 But from there, he's now starting virtual church services targeting this particular part of a very dangerous area of his country. 00:28:16.160 --> 00:28:24.340 And he's doing that, and he goes, it's amazing because I never thought we would ever see a single believer in this part of the country. 00:28:24.900 --> 00:28:34.520 And in a matter of months, we're having conversations over Zoom, over Skype, over anything we can get our hands on, right? 00:28:34.540 --> 00:28:39.860 And of course, I'm like, let's talk security, let's talk data privacy, let's talk encryption, right? 00:28:40.280 --> 00:28:58.280 But he goes, you know, Justin, to be honest with you, what would take years of just presence and being and getting to know people just to be able to have a conversation with one person is literally taking only weeks. 00:28:59.220 --> 00:29:03.360 And in months, we're able to actually get to a level of conversation. 00:29:04.020 --> 00:29:05.920 And he goes, I've been a pastor for 15 years. 00:29:06.020 --> 00:29:14.320 There are people that I have been trying to share Christ with for 15 years, and I've never been able to share Christ with them the way I'm able to do this on an online setting. 00:29:14.320 --> 00:29:22.600 Because there's something about being online that allows people this sense of freedom and distance, you know? 00:29:22.680 --> 00:29:29.100 Even if we're in the same region, the fact that you don't see me, we're not face-to-face, right? 00:29:29.120 --> 00:29:30.180 I could turn off my camera. 00:29:30.620 --> 00:29:31.800 We could have an audio conversation. 00:29:31.880 --> 00:29:33.100 There's a lot of different options. 00:29:33.160 --> 00:29:39.340 Whereas if I meet you in person, that's maybe putting a target on my head because I don't know if there's a target on yours. 00:29:40.000 --> 00:29:42.160 And I don't, I may not be comfortable with that. 00:29:42.660 --> 00:29:44.780 Or, you know, think about it this way. 00:29:45.420 --> 00:29:52.060 The online church is a great place for that back row Baptist who kind of sneaks in, sits down, and then they're gone before the last song, right? 00:29:52.400 --> 00:29:53.540 And we all know that. 00:29:53.620 --> 00:29:55.900 We see those people back when we had physical church. 00:29:57.320 --> 00:30:08.840 And yet now that we're gathering again, some of us in different states, we're still seeing people who, because of immunocompromised states or health or fear, they're not coming back. 00:30:08.840 --> 00:30:10.140 But they still need to be reached. 00:30:10.140 --> 00:30:17.700 And so one of my biggest concerns here in the states is we see churches abandon their digital ministries for the sake of going back in person. 00:30:18.220 --> 00:30:27.120 And I think, man, what about the people that are going to be stranded because their church has chosen to give up on the digital because now we can all go back in person. 00:30:27.260 --> 00:30:29.560 And boy, are we glad that's done, right? 00:30:30.340 --> 00:30:40.500 And so there's also an opportunity for churches, quite frankly, because there are people who are going to be seeking and searching and they're wanting a church home. 00:30:40.580 --> 00:30:49.340 And your church may very well be the church that they land on and find to be their new church home, even if it's in a place, you know, all the way around the world. 00:30:50.140 --> 00:31:00.300 I'm intrigued, just even as I was thinking of what digital church could look like, you know, in the Middle East, you know, I definitely, I saw like the engagement. 00:31:00.580 --> 00:31:01.260 I saw the Zoom. 00:31:01.500 --> 00:31:08.620 I saw like that, the relational connection, kind of like the house church, micro church mentality just done digitally. 00:31:09.880 --> 00:31:13.500 But I'm intrigued because you're also describing more than the engagement. 00:31:13.680 --> 00:31:19.940 You're talking about how they're utilizing, you know, broadcasts and things like this, if I'm understanding right, to reach people. 00:31:20.060 --> 00:31:23.920 So they're connecting digitally with people they don't know. 00:31:24.480 --> 00:31:32.360 Like, is there a fear of, that's an agent of the government who's going to get me in trouble? 00:31:32.360 --> 00:31:46.080 Like, and so like, so there's got to be some level of safeguarding, but even with that and safeguarding, I'm sure, like they're still utilizing the digital methods to reach out with people they don't know to share Christ. 00:31:46.280 --> 00:31:48.140 What's, how do you train? 00:31:48.240 --> 00:31:51.940 Like, what's the passion look like for somebody who's doing something like this? 00:31:52.400 --> 00:31:53.760 Yeah, it's great. 00:31:53.820 --> 00:32:00.660 So we actually have a partner called the MENA Leadership Center, which they're an institute that trains what we call stopgap. 00:32:00.660 --> 00:32:05.740 So if you come from a Christian background, you know what, chances are you probably have some seminary or Bible school. 00:32:05.860 --> 00:32:08.740 If you come from a majority background, you may have a business degree. 00:32:09.220 --> 00:32:16.120 But just because you went to seminary doesn't mean, as we all know, right, doesn't mean you're adequately equipped to run a business or a ministry or an organization. 00:32:16.700 --> 00:32:24.580 And just because you went to business school doesn't mean you have any understanding of spiritual growth, discipleship, formation, and spiritual awareness. 00:32:24.920 --> 00:32:28.440 And so the MENA Leadership Center provides that stopgap for both of them. 00:32:28.440 --> 00:32:30.040 So we train through the center. 00:32:30.280 --> 00:32:37.580 We offer several different courses on virtual church pastoring, how to do digital discipleship and evangelism in a virtual church. 00:32:38.020 --> 00:32:39.400 We build those things out. 00:32:39.460 --> 00:32:43.360 And the reason why we call virtual, it's funny, the word virtual church doesn't translate into Arabic. 00:32:44.000 --> 00:32:45.680 In Arabic, we call it digital church. 00:32:46.200 --> 00:32:50.280 But in America, what we found is a lot of people said, oh, yeah, I'm a digital church. 00:32:50.340 --> 00:32:52.560 We broadcast our Sunday service on Facebook. 00:32:53.180 --> 00:32:53.500 Great. 00:32:54.040 --> 00:32:55.620 What's your discipleship look like online? 00:32:56.040 --> 00:32:56.740 Like, what do you mean? 00:32:57.600 --> 00:32:58.900 What about your fellowship online? 00:32:59.340 --> 00:33:00.180 We don't do that. 00:33:00.740 --> 00:33:00.900 Okay. 00:33:00.940 --> 00:33:02.260 Well, what about your evangelism online? 00:33:02.860 --> 00:33:04.680 Well, we put Sunday service out. 00:33:04.740 --> 00:33:05.380 That counts, right? 00:33:06.080 --> 00:33:10.120 You know, like, no, there's so much more to it that you can do. 00:33:10.500 --> 00:33:21.380 And, you know, a lot of this is just having this strategic vision of what a comprehensive, what we would call virtual church or someone called digital church looks like. 00:33:21.380 --> 00:33:24.480 And so that's really where we've kind of settled on this. 00:33:24.980 --> 00:33:26.840 You know, there's all kinds of definitions. 00:33:27.040 --> 00:33:43.860 But for us, it's utilizing technology to replicate as many physical functions of church as possible in a digital environment so that someone could actually attend a virtual church and still be as connected and plugged in as they could in the physical. 00:33:45.020 --> 00:33:46.820 And, yeah, that takes some difficulty. 00:33:46.980 --> 00:33:48.720 We have friends that are like, what about church discipline? 00:33:49.600 --> 00:33:50.760 You know, well, I get that. 00:33:50.760 --> 00:33:58.480 But in all honesty, if I'm an online pastor, it's really easy for me to mute a microphone or it's really easy for me to bounce you out of a Zoom group. 00:33:59.720 --> 00:34:08.640 I can't really do that that easily if you're sitting in my Sunday school class, you know, or it's going to be really awkward if I have to do that in my Sunday school class, right? 00:34:09.560 --> 00:34:13.040 So in many ways, even on the church discipline side, it's easier. 00:34:13.500 --> 00:34:20.040 We've done a full podcast centered around digital-only expressions of church, virtual church. 00:34:20.140 --> 00:34:21.420 And in church discipline. 00:34:21.420 --> 00:34:26.140 Like we brought in three planners talking specifically about that. 00:34:26.320 --> 00:34:29.520 And all of them said, oh, yeah, it's much easier to do digitally than physically. 00:34:30.000 --> 00:34:38.820 Because digitally, you're going to build a relationship with the person physically, you know, there's always that tension that you're maybe not able to build that relationship like you would digitally. 00:34:39.440 --> 00:34:42.440 Like, well, even counseling wise, right? 00:34:42.540 --> 00:34:48.080 It's amazing because when I do like pastoral counseling, particularly like let's say you have a couple, right? 00:34:48.160 --> 00:34:54.080 If I'm counseling a couple on, you know, physically, I have to turn to the spouse, you know, look at one, look at the other. 00:34:54.160 --> 00:34:55.720 I have to be listening and paying attention. 00:34:56.240 --> 00:35:01.360 But when I see the husband and wife on a Zoom screen, man, I can see both their facial expressions at the same time. 00:35:02.080 --> 00:35:03.520 And I can be like, no. 00:35:03.880 --> 00:35:05.540 Now, Sally, you're making a face. 00:35:05.620 --> 00:35:06.220 Why is that? 00:35:06.560 --> 00:35:13.140 You know, and so it just the online, even from a pastoral ministry perspective, has changed the game for us in a lot of ways. 00:35:13.800 --> 00:35:19.980 What lessons, this may be a loaded question, and I entirely 100% mean it to be a loaded question. 00:35:20.760 --> 00:35:25.340 What lessons does the Western church, what do we need to learn from the Middle East here? 00:35:25.940 --> 00:35:30.220 And digital, even beyond that, like give some takeaways here. 00:35:30.640 --> 00:35:32.460 So the first is that we didn't invent it. 00:35:32.960 --> 00:35:36.740 I think that's the number one lesson that I would say for the Western church. 00:35:36.900 --> 00:35:39.400 We have improved on something, but let's not forget. 00:35:39.400 --> 00:35:39.980 Sorry, Life Church. 00:35:40.860 --> 00:35:42.900 Bobby, I apologize in advance. 00:35:43.160 --> 00:35:44.020 You guys are great. 00:35:44.120 --> 00:35:45.220 Evidently, we didn't invent it. 00:35:45.220 --> 00:35:53.020 You know, there's this sense of, that's where the roots of the Christian family tree begin, right? 00:35:53.080 --> 00:35:53.920 It's in this region. 00:35:54.620 --> 00:36:01.660 And, you know, so it's no surprise then when I look at some of the earliest expressions of online church coming out of the Middle East. 00:36:02.140 --> 00:36:05.460 It really is a no-brainer that, you know, it's because of necessity. 00:36:06.000 --> 00:36:10.140 So while we're not there, we've been able to improve and take a lot of these things. 00:36:10.260 --> 00:36:14.500 And like Life Church has built some amazing technologies and platforms and tools. 00:36:14.540 --> 00:36:21.360 And I'm constantly directing our virtual church pastors in the region to go there for resourcing and information and education. 00:36:21.920 --> 00:36:27.300 And yet at the same time, I think we can look at things like data security. 00:36:27.820 --> 00:36:30.500 The Iranian church is figuring this out pretty well, right? 00:36:30.760 --> 00:36:38.440 Looking at things like how do we manage to stream a mobile-only service in an area where we have very low bandwidth, right? 00:36:38.500 --> 00:36:42.900 Well, that may not necessarily be a struggle that we face today, but it might be. 00:36:42.980 --> 00:36:44.180 And so it's good to know those things. 00:36:45.000 --> 00:36:51.400 But the biggest thing I think we need to learn is how do we develop an authentic sense of community in a digital space? 00:36:52.360 --> 00:37:04.680 And creating that community, curating and creating authentic community online is something that the church in the MENA region is doing a great job of. 00:37:05.480 --> 00:37:08.320 And that's largely because of the culture, right? 00:37:08.400 --> 00:37:11.020 They live in a culture of community, this Ummah. 00:37:11.900 --> 00:37:18.360 And in fact, what's really funny is there's this phrase, Ummah al-Masiyah, the community of the Messiah. 00:37:19.200 --> 00:37:25.960 And they say, you know, we want to be this Ummah al-Masiyah, but we want to be that in the virtual space as well. 00:37:26.920 --> 00:37:29.260 I had a pastor tell me one time, he says, you know what? 00:37:29.280 --> 00:37:32.460 We're seeing the internet is really wrecking a lot of young men and women. 00:37:32.460 --> 00:37:36.240 And they're, the stuff they're accessing online, it's garbage, it's a bunch of trash. 00:37:36.300 --> 00:37:38.360 And we've, we've of course seen that over here too, right? 00:37:39.180 --> 00:37:46.760 And he says, you know, what occurred to me though, is that we complain about it, but we're not putting any godly content to occupy the space. 00:37:47.880 --> 00:37:51.960 And so the only way you defeat darkness is with light. 00:37:52.480 --> 00:37:55.680 So why not be the light of Christ in a virtual space? 00:37:55.760 --> 00:37:58.860 Why not be the light of Christ in VR, like our friend DJ Soto? 00:37:58.860 --> 00:38:01.780 Why not be the light of Christ in the gaming platforms, right? 00:38:01.800 --> 00:38:03.760 Like you and I know many people who are doing that. 00:38:04.080 --> 00:38:18.700 Why not be the light of Christ in Facebook, in Instagram, in these spaces where people are using all kinds of technology tools and resources for fun, for relaxation, some for not so good purposes. 00:38:19.100 --> 00:38:23.520 But let's be the light of Christ in those places and let's be an incarnational presence for the gospel. 00:38:23.860 --> 00:38:35.660 So in the Middle East, they, I mean, they have no concerns about physical, digital, like they look at digital, I, is this the line when I, sorry, let me start over. 00:38:36.000 --> 00:38:40.920 When I talk to churches, like it's, hey, do you believe that digital is a community that's worthy of a church? 00:38:41.500 --> 00:38:46.040 Like, do you look at Facebook and say, hey, a church needs to be in that space? 00:38:46.100 --> 00:38:47.840 Are you trying to drive towards physical? 00:38:47.960 --> 00:38:53.200 And the majority of churches believe that they should drive towards physical and digital tools drive towards that. 00:38:53.460 --> 00:39:00.600 Some, mid-post-COVID, are now starting to get on board with maybe a digital-only expression that runs alongside physical. 00:39:01.120 --> 00:39:03.480 But the majority would say that physical is still necessary. 00:39:04.120 --> 00:39:09.140 In the Middle East, like there's no qualms with doing a digital community. 00:39:09.380 --> 00:39:17.140 The ecclesiological functions, the biblical functions, the things that you mentioned before, your five points based off of what sounds like Acts 2. 00:39:17.580 --> 00:39:26.980 Like doing that as much as possible in digital space even beyond, like that's just a necessity because there's nothing else to do church in. 00:39:27.100 --> 00:39:28.260 I mean, is that what you're describing? 00:39:28.940 --> 00:39:33.280 So there are, because every country in the Middle East is different, right? 00:39:33.280 --> 00:39:39.420 And so because of that, you have some that say, yes, we are able to gather, but others that say no. 00:39:39.500 --> 00:39:40.760 And here's the reality. 00:39:41.420 --> 00:39:49.700 The fastest growing movement in the world right now is in Iran, where we're seeing these people who are formerly Muslim now come to faith. 00:39:49.820 --> 00:39:51.620 Well, where are they going to go? 00:39:51.720 --> 00:39:53.500 There is no physical church for them to go. 00:39:53.980 --> 00:39:59.280 And in many of the countries of the Middle East, they have laws that prohibit blasphemy and postalization. 00:40:00.000 --> 00:40:02.820 So they cannot change their religion. 00:40:02.820 --> 00:40:04.020 It's on their ID card. 00:40:04.100 --> 00:40:04.800 You're born a Muslim. 00:40:04.880 --> 00:40:06.920 You will die a Muslim as far as the government's concerned. 00:40:07.220 --> 00:40:09.420 But if you come to Christ, where are they going to go? 00:40:10.060 --> 00:40:12.180 Which church is going to receive them? 00:40:12.240 --> 00:40:16.860 Many churches out of fear or out of law can't receive these people. 00:40:17.260 --> 00:40:18.260 So what do we do? 00:40:18.540 --> 00:40:21.600 Do we just say, well, let's stop sharing the gospel? 00:40:22.420 --> 00:40:23.000 Of course not. 00:40:23.680 --> 00:40:25.320 So we have to come up with another alternative. 00:40:25.520 --> 00:40:27.820 And the alternative is the virtual church. 00:40:28.240 --> 00:40:29.720 It is the space where they can gather. 00:40:29.720 --> 00:40:34.420 It is the space where they can be baptized through Zoom or, you know, through FaceTime. 00:40:34.540 --> 00:40:39.460 It is the space where they can gather in a home, break bread, share wine, and have communion together. 00:40:39.980 --> 00:40:48.940 It's a space where they can laugh and have fellowship and discipleship and evangelize their neighbors by inviting them into this virtual space and creating this ummah, this community. 00:40:49.340 --> 00:40:53.820 And they're growing, and it's growing at a very rapid pace, which we're so thankful for. 00:40:54.500 --> 00:40:58.060 But it is both and, I guess to answer your question, right? 00:40:58.440 --> 00:41:08.300 There's a physical church that sees for us to fulfill our mission to evangelize the lost in our community, the only way to do that safely is through doing it virtually. 00:41:08.960 --> 00:41:14.620 And then you have these other folks who, they may come to Christ, but there's no physical church around them for them to go to. 00:41:14.980 --> 00:41:18.240 So they see the virtual church as the only lifeline. 00:41:18.800 --> 00:41:20.440 Well, think about it this way in America today. 00:41:21.380 --> 00:41:28.900 We have a lot of churches that, and I've seen this when I was at a very large church in the Dallas area that we loved, right? 00:41:29.000 --> 00:41:36.720 I was at First Baptist Dallas, and we had folks that would come to us and would say, you know, there's not a biblically faithful church in our community. 00:41:37.260 --> 00:41:39.780 I don't live near a Bible-believing church. 00:41:40.600 --> 00:41:41.940 So I watch your program. 00:41:42.060 --> 00:41:43.420 I'm a part of your online ministry. 00:41:44.340 --> 00:41:50.760 And that's a sad statement to say in America, but that's an ever-increasing reality for many Christians. 00:41:51.380 --> 00:41:56.380 And they feel like, you know, there's not a biblically faithful community that they can be a part of. 00:41:56.420 --> 00:41:57.700 And so where can they go? 00:41:58.220 --> 00:42:02.120 And even more and more in America today, we're finding people turning to a virtual church. 00:42:02.200 --> 00:42:04.100 And so it's a reality. 00:42:04.480 --> 00:42:05.500 It's not going away. 00:42:05.860 --> 00:42:06.660 It is here. 00:42:07.280 --> 00:42:10.980 Now the question is, what does a proper digital ecclesiology look like? 00:42:10.980 --> 00:42:24.960 And that's a lot of what we're trying to help formulate by looking and researching what's happening in the Middle East and studying the effects, studying, you know, the real efficacy of these conversions and discipleship processes. 00:42:25.520 --> 00:42:35.780 And by doing this research, we're able to come back and help formulate what a proper, you know, grounded, sound digital ecclesiology looks like for the church. 00:42:35.900 --> 00:42:39.020 And it's one that we want to make available, obviously, to the whole world. 00:42:39.280 --> 00:42:40.960 And so it's exciting times. 00:42:41.640 --> 00:42:42.300 Very, very cool. 00:42:42.360 --> 00:42:42.800 Love that. 00:42:43.200 --> 00:42:53.780 I would be interested even to see how that develops and grows and, you know, some contextual questions about how that would work, you know, here in the Western Hemisphere churches. 00:42:54.020 --> 00:42:58.200 But love the fact that others are out there asking that question as well. 00:42:58.700 --> 00:43:00.760 How has COVID affected this? 00:43:00.840 --> 00:43:07.220 Because if they were already thinking digital, they already had a devalue for the most part on physical church. 00:43:07.600 --> 00:43:11.840 You would think that they were thriving and even possibly growing in this season. 00:43:11.960 --> 00:43:12.620 What's it look like? 00:43:12.820 --> 00:43:14.240 Oh, it's been crazy. 00:43:14.240 --> 00:43:23.520 I mean, literally, it is the busiest time that churches have had in years in the region because people are home, right? 00:43:23.680 --> 00:43:28.700 And particularly, you know, in the Middle East, they take lockdown really seriously. 00:43:29.120 --> 00:43:34.420 And so, you know, you leave your home, you're getting a ticket and going to jail, right? 00:43:34.460 --> 00:43:38.760 It's not like that here where, you know, we have Karen yelling at us down the street, you know, to put a mask on. 00:43:39.600 --> 00:43:41.980 It's super duper strict in a lot of these countries. 00:43:42.200 --> 00:43:50.720 And so because of that, people are home and they're watching things like satellite television, which has Christian content and programming. 00:43:51.100 --> 00:43:56.300 They're looking on Facebook and they're watching YouTube videos and they're asking questions. 00:43:56.840 --> 00:43:57.620 I mean, think about it. 00:43:57.900 --> 00:44:03.100 Last year, when COVID started to hit, we have a theology of suffering as Christians. 00:44:03.240 --> 00:44:04.740 We expect suffering. 00:44:05.440 --> 00:44:08.640 That's what we're told and prepared for in our own spiritual walk. 00:44:08.900 --> 00:44:23.800 But particularly for someone who comes from a different background, a Muslim background, for example, when Ramadan gets shut down and families can't gather and they can't go on Hajj to Mecca and all of these different things, there's naturally these questions being asked. 00:44:24.180 --> 00:44:26.220 Why would God allow that? 00:44:27.060 --> 00:44:29.820 I think every person in the world has asked that question. 00:44:29.940 --> 00:44:30.700 Let's just be honest. 00:44:31.180 --> 00:44:32.900 Why would fill in the blank, right? 00:44:34.320 --> 00:44:38.180 God, Buddha, Jesus, whoever, we've all asked this question. 00:44:38.200 --> 00:44:43.720 The difference is, as Christians, we know that suffering is a part of life because we live in a fallen world. 00:44:44.320 --> 00:44:53.680 And we know that this is not necessarily like, you know, this is just what is going to happen in our life if we read our Bible and take it seriously, right? 00:44:54.320 --> 00:44:56.080 Things are going to get worse before they get a whole lot better. 00:44:57.020 --> 00:45:01.840 And so because of that, a lot of Christians in the Middle East started asking and answering these questions. 00:45:02.040 --> 00:45:09.340 And because of those conversations, it's led to a wave of people coming to faith, asking more about Jesus and turning to Christ in this season. 00:45:09.480 --> 00:45:19.560 And so what many people thought was going to be a disaster for the church has actually become a vibrant growth season for the church in the Middle East. 00:45:19.660 --> 00:45:21.180 And it's continuing to do so. 00:45:21.220 --> 00:45:23.100 And it doesn't look like it's abating anytime soon. 00:45:23.580 --> 00:45:34.940 So, I mean, this has been, it's just even here in America, like where so many churches have been struggling, have been, you know, fighting to keep the doors open and rushing back in. 00:45:35.100 --> 00:45:44.620 You know, even today when I'm doing this recording, 30 to 40% of people are attending, 60 to 70, maybe 50% are not, have not made it back to the building. 00:45:45.120 --> 00:45:53.760 We're trying to figure out how to develop first timers back again, trying to re-engage with people, develop strategies towards this. 00:45:54.520 --> 00:46:03.140 Middle East, at some level, the Christians there were comfortable and are thriving in these environments because they were already recognizing and they had the strategies. 00:46:04.200 --> 00:46:05.720 I'm thinking the right way. 00:46:05.800 --> 00:46:07.080 I'm just on the wrong continent. 00:46:07.380 --> 00:46:11.840 And I need to, I need to go get in, in, in Middle East with the people where they're thinking this way. 00:46:11.900 --> 00:46:19.040 It's like, oh, it's so, it's so exciting to hear where these principles, where, where the, these ideas are, are, are working. 00:46:20.740 --> 00:46:22.680 What's, what's the end game here? 00:46:22.680 --> 00:46:29.620 And, and especially with, with VCF and, and what you guys are doing, is, is there, what's, what's the goal? 00:46:29.760 --> 00:46:32.560 What's, what's the, what's the accomplishment? 00:46:33.300 --> 00:46:36.760 Like, planting more churches, training planters who are planting others. 00:46:36.760 --> 00:46:40.020 Like, give, give me, give me the, the, the mission vision a little bit here. 00:46:40.320 --> 00:46:49.620 So we work in 23 countries across the greater Middle East and our heart and desire is to see over the next three years, a virtual church planted in each and every one of those countries. 00:46:50.100 --> 00:46:55.560 And to see a, a work either in the country or dedicated to that country. 00:46:55.560 --> 00:47:07.100 And so, you know, it might be people that live elsewhere in the region, but are focusing and they're micro-targeting and they're buying ads and they're, they're really channeling all of their efforts towards a particular country. 00:47:07.560 --> 00:47:22.880 It's amazing to see this young generation of digital native, techno savvy, on fire believers who, you know, their desire is not to physically plant a physical church, but, but to do this virtual church planting. 00:47:23.020 --> 00:47:37.320 And they're using some of the most creative, innovative means, everything from sitcoms that they're creating that are actually the, the sermon delivery through a sitcom that's a series on YouTube. 00:47:37.420 --> 00:47:52.280 And then funneling you from that, that sitcom experience into these discipleship groups that, again, the main host that you see from the, from the sitcom now is curating your Sunday small group brunch time. 00:47:52.280 --> 00:47:53.220 Like what in the world? 00:47:53.620 --> 00:47:56.820 And so you kind of have this parallel back and it's going back and forth. 00:47:56.820 --> 00:47:58.760 I mean, they're, they're trying everything they can. 00:47:59.320 --> 00:48:03.620 And that's one of the beauties is because of the opportunity for innovation, they're not afraid. 00:48:03.820 --> 00:48:07.140 They're just going to keep trying and we're here to support them and help them. 00:48:07.240 --> 00:48:12.940 So that's our goal is we want to see every one of our 23 countries, a virtual church established over the next three years. 00:48:13.080 --> 00:48:19.220 So far in our first year, we are about 14 in on these projects. 00:48:19.220 --> 00:48:27.220 And so we're, we are super excited to see what God is doing and, and he's raising up men and women who are going out and planting. 00:48:27.220 --> 00:48:32.480 And yes, I said men and women who are going out and planting in the greater Middle East. 00:48:32.860 --> 00:48:34.480 And it's amazing to be a part of it. 00:48:35.000 --> 00:48:48.180 I mean, one of the things that I love, um, and I don't remember if you've said it here, but one of the things that I love about Mina and about the VCF is, is the desire to help native, native people plant churches in those areas. 00:48:48.180 --> 00:48:54.040 It's, it's not, you know, and I say this trying to be racially sensitive, but it's not white man coming to save. 00:48:54.160 --> 00:48:59.340 It's not, and honestly, after this conversation, the Western church, we need to learn some things. 00:48:59.500 --> 00:49:04.140 We, we had, um, uh, just so many conversations along that, but the Western church, we need to learn something here. 00:49:04.400 --> 00:49:07.080 We need, we, we don't need to come in and teach. 00:49:07.200 --> 00:49:11.280 We need to learn, bring in some of these learnings and try to figure out how to help. 00:49:11.300 --> 00:49:20.040 But I love this idea of having, helping natives and empower them, uh, with, with their voice, teach them, create creativity to be creative. 00:49:20.580 --> 00:49:33.280 A sitcom for a sermon on, listen, I, I, I feel like I would have been shot had I suggested that pre-COVID, mid-COVID, I think I maybe, possibly a couple churches would have bought into it, but few and far between. 00:49:33.440 --> 00:49:34.340 That's sacrilege. 00:49:34.420 --> 00:49:37.360 We've been preaching the sermon like this for, for generations. 00:49:37.360 --> 00:49:39.280 You, you want to change the sermon? 00:49:39.360 --> 00:49:40.400 You can't change the sermon. 00:49:40.540 --> 00:49:43.000 No, uh, no, I, I love this. 00:49:43.620 --> 00:49:45.420 It's a, it's amazing to see. 00:49:45.520 --> 00:49:46.300 It's amazing. 00:49:46.780 --> 00:49:50.100 You know, Jeff, the other thing that I would, I would say is that, um, 00:49:50.100 --> 00:49:58.300 because of the, the lessons that we are learning, you know, we've gathered a team of theological advisors who are all from the region. 00:49:58.680 --> 00:50:04.300 Uh, there's not a single Westerner on the theological advisory group for the virtual church fellowship. 00:50:04.980 --> 00:50:09.620 Um, now we have technical advisors and we have, you know, friends like Jay Crander, Yvonne Carlson from Moody. 00:50:09.620 --> 00:50:13.360 Like we have folks that, that we work with that help speak technologically. 00:50:13.540 --> 00:50:19.620 But as far as the theological groundings, that's been the greatest adventure too, is working with these regional 00:50:19.620 --> 00:50:25.640 theological experts and theologians who are national leaders in their own right in their regions. 00:50:25.760 --> 00:50:32.640 And they're the ones that are helping form and advise us actually on how we form things at VCF. 00:50:32.720 --> 00:50:38.080 And so it's been great to work hand in hand with our brothers and sisters from the region and we'll continue to do so. 00:50:38.120 --> 00:50:39.700 And that has been a great model. 00:50:39.820 --> 00:50:49.760 I think that's well worth replicating is instead of going in with an idea and a model and a philosophy, our step one was to gather these theologians and to say, here's a concept. 00:50:49.760 --> 00:50:53.480 Tell me, tell me why this can't happen or why this can't happen or why it should happen. 00:50:53.880 --> 00:50:57.720 And we we've met all the way back in, in 2018. 00:50:58.220 --> 00:51:01.800 And we actually began this conversation in 2018 with these theologians. 00:51:01.900 --> 00:51:08.320 And out of that came the formula and the strategy and the plan to launch these virtual churches before COVID. 00:51:09.040 --> 00:51:11.080 And so it's been great. 00:51:11.160 --> 00:51:15.020 And we've we've actually in many ways are very thankful because of COVID. 00:51:15.180 --> 00:51:24.720 We've been able to really focus and get these things done because when you have people at home, you know, pastors aren't getting pulled to go do 18 different things for their church, their home. 00:51:25.040 --> 00:51:31.920 And so it gives them ample time to do just like what we're doing here, having those Zoom calls and and getting caught up to speed and doing things. 00:51:32.060 --> 00:51:34.240 No, I love what you guys are doing. 00:51:34.500 --> 00:51:40.340 I love the idea of, you know, Stadia, the passion of Stadia is until every child has a church. 00:51:41.160 --> 00:51:54.360 And you guys are tackling some Middle Eastern territory here aggressively utilizing digital format, which, by the way, has been working there for, you know, it sounds like a couple of decades. 00:51:54.920 --> 00:51:58.060 And so, you know, my eyes are open. 00:51:58.140 --> 00:52:06.500 Like I knew they were doing some stuff, but some of the level of this and I'm really interested in the Middle Eastern sitcom. 00:52:06.780 --> 00:52:07.420 That's the sermon. 00:52:07.680 --> 00:52:10.260 I may want to grab that YouTube link from the offline. 00:52:11.140 --> 00:52:15.040 But no, this has been, man, this has been an awesome conversation. 00:52:15.040 --> 00:52:19.140 And I'm sure one of many that are still to come. 00:52:19.480 --> 00:52:23.440 So, hey, as we're landing the plane here, Justin, man, any closing thoughts? 00:52:24.100 --> 00:52:24.260 Yeah. 00:52:24.800 --> 00:52:31.460 So if you're listening or watching this and you're like, man, that's kind of crazy, you want to know more, reach out. 00:52:31.540 --> 00:52:32.500 We'd love to connect you. 00:52:33.000 --> 00:52:34.920 Also, here's a crazy challenge. 00:52:35.020 --> 00:52:45.640 Would you pray about partnering with a current church in the Middle East, either sponsoring a virtual church or even better, being a sister church? 00:52:45.640 --> 00:52:50.460 Just being a source of encouragement and having that partnership, being able to pray for one another. 00:52:50.460 --> 00:52:57.100 It's awesome to see, you know, Zoom group to Zoom group or small group to small group or Sunday school class, Sunday school class. 00:52:57.340 --> 00:52:58.000 Just help building a church. 00:52:58.000 --> 00:53:00.580 Just help building a bridge and being the global church. 00:53:00.800 --> 00:53:03.700 I promise you that will bless your congregation. 00:53:04.000 --> 00:53:05.180 It will bless your church. 00:53:05.180 --> 00:53:06.320 It will bless your own ministry. 00:53:06.520 --> 00:53:08.320 And it will be a tremendous blessing to them as well. 00:53:08.320 --> 00:53:15.860 Just to even gather together and pray together as two churches across the world under one lordship of Jesus Christ. 00:53:15.960 --> 00:53:17.140 It's an amazing thing to do. 00:53:17.240 --> 00:53:18.660 So just pray about that. 00:53:18.800 --> 00:53:23.800 And if we can ever be a resource to you or your churches, you know, you're at the right place listening to the podcast here with Stadia. 00:53:23.980 --> 00:53:25.400 So stay tuned. 00:53:25.500 --> 00:53:25.980 Keep listening. 00:53:26.080 --> 00:53:28.860 But if we can ever be of help in any work in the Middle East, let us know. 00:53:29.340 --> 00:53:32.160 Yeah, I totally want to unpack the idea of a sister church. 00:53:32.280 --> 00:53:33.000 I was wrestling. 00:53:33.760 --> 00:53:37.580 Sam George from, and you can listen to that podcast if you want to go back and let's do it. 00:53:37.600 --> 00:53:39.280 He was exploding my brain. 00:53:40.020 --> 00:53:41.520 And I'm listening to him talk. 00:53:41.520 --> 00:53:50.820 And I'm like, somebody needs to start a sister church program and get some international culture experience into some Western churches just to allow that. 00:53:50.980 --> 00:53:54.400 And to hear that you're already doing that, man, that I should have expected. 00:53:54.540 --> 00:53:55.460 But that is awesome. 00:53:55.580 --> 00:53:56.360 I love that. 00:53:57.020 --> 00:54:00.080 So, hey, Justin, sir, I want to thank you for the time here. 00:54:00.580 --> 00:54:11.500 It's been a pleasure and looking forward to learning more about the global church and how they're utilizing digital and how they're discipling and how they're already executing spiritual formation. 00:54:11.500 --> 00:54:13.720 While we here at the U.S. are like, can we do that? 00:54:14.060 --> 00:54:15.100 Are we sure we can do that? 00:54:15.160 --> 00:54:16.720 This is a fascinating conversation. 00:54:16.940 --> 00:54:22.340 So, hey, for Justin with VCF, this is Jeff with the Church Digital and Stadia Church Planning. 00:54:22.860 --> 00:54:24.400 Thanks for jumping on the show here. 00:54:24.480 --> 00:54:25.620 We'll see you next time on the pod. 00:54:26.080 --> 00:54:26.540 Y'all have a good day.