WEBVTT

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 What does it even mean to be a multicultural church today?

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 Is it multicultural, or are we monocultural church with multicultural attenders?

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 And if it's multicultural attenders, then how does that affect a digital environment

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 where we're all isolated, where there is very little multi happening

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 in context of how we're watching and processing digital church?

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 It's interesting, we're kind of trying to figure out some things here

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 about what a multicultural looks like, church looks like today,

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 here 2021, mid-post-COVID culture.

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 Hey, Jeff here with the Church Digital Podcast, once again,

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 powered by Stadia Church Planting.

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 And so really wanted to dig in here, maybe have not technological conversation

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 as much as, man, how can we be respectful?

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 How can we pay honor?

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 How can we embrace this idea of truly being a multicultural church

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 in today's post-COVID digital environments?

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 This is the conversation.

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 And to that end, I went to one of the largest churches in America

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 that's operating in a multicultural approach.

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 We're talking Transformation Church out of the Carolinas area.

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 Derwin Gray is the lead pastor there.

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 Now, Derwin has recently written a book called Pastoring or Leading a Multicultural Church.

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 And so you can download that link in the show notes.

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 You can go to Amazon, buy the book.

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 That's awesome.

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 The church itself, they do multicultural roundtables where they gather churches

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 from all over the country to process and work through what it even means to be multicultural

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 and how we can embrace, in the church level, embrace more of this multiculturalism approach.

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 Stadia's heartbeats in the same realm.

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 How do we plant?

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 How do we help multi-ethnic planters plant churches?

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 How do we help these people reach their ones for Christ and even create a multicultural approach in that?

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 And so to that end, I, Jeff, trying to better understand, as a white man with a goatee,

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 I'm trying to better understand what multicultural is even here in America.

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 So I wanted to do a podcast.

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 We brought into the conversation Curtis Miller.

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 Now, Curtis is on staff with Transformation Church at Derwin Grace Church, I mentioned earlier,

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 up in the Carolinas area.

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 And really, ask some heartfelt, honest, transparent questions.

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 Teach me here.

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 I want to listen.

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 I want to learn in this season.

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 How do we do a multicultural church physically, fidgetally, and or digital only?

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 What does this even look like?

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 And so for this conversation, we're bringing in Curtis Miller, pastor of care and outreach

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 at Transformation Church, and he's very involved in the multicultural approach of Transformation Church.

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 We're also bringing in, of course, myself, Jeff, with the Church Digital and Stadia Church Planting

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 in a conversation that I'm simply calling Transformation Church's Multicultural Approach Vigitally.

00:03:21.280 --> 00:03:22.660
 Okay, everybody, here you go.

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 Ben, tell me your ministry story, how you got started at Transformation Church.

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 Sure.

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 I'll try to keep this brief.

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 It's actually pretty cool.

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 So I wasn't married yet.

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 My fiancée at the time had moved to South Carolina.

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 We met in Maryland, and she had been down here for a little while.

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 I was transitioning.

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 I had been in part-time ministry but worked full-time as a graphic designer.

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 And so I was looking for what kind of jobs was God leading me in in this new adventure.

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 And so my wife, she goes with her mom one day here in the Charlotte area to just have lunch,

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 and they were going to make save the dates.

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 And she drops one on the floor and slides over, and the lady picks it up.

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 And we had a scripture on there, Philippians 2.2, and just speaking of just that desire for unity and everything.

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 This lady goes, I love this scripture.

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 Where do you go to church?

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 She strikes up this conversation, starts talking.

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 And, you know, my wife, a fiancée at the time, she says, oh, you know, she goes, I actually live in Columbia.

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 So she lived further south.

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 She tells her about church here.

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 She's like, you know, your fiancée should reach out.

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 They're opening a new campus, da-da-da-da-da-da.

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 And she goes, oh, so that's where you go to church?

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 And the lady was like, actually, I don't go.

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 She goes, I go there?

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 She goes, but I work at this place over here.

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 So it was really crazy.

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 So the lady works as teaching at a specific church for their school, but she goes to Transformation Church.

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 And my wife was like, okay, that's unique.

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 And so as she started hearing about it and everything, she thought it was really cool.

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 So she told me to reach out.

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 I did.

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 Long story short, I would say probably six months transpired.

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 We move.

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 I'm down in South Carolina.

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 We're married.

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 I get an email one day from the communications director and saying, hey, I imagine you're married now, da-da-da-da.

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 We'd love for you to check out what we're doing.

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 Now, mind you, I had taken a graphic design job for a company that had been around for 40 years.

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 They were trying to have like an in-house designer for the first time in their lives.

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 And it really was not coming together.

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 So the week prior, I'm telling my wife, I think I need to, we need to be praying about something different.

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 And that literally the next week I got this email from Transformation Church saying, we'd love for you to come check us out.

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 You know, just wanted to kind of catch up and see where you were in life.

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 And so long story short, we got, we went up there, we visited.

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 My wife, being the great woman of discernment and intuitiveness that she is, was like, this, this is like a picture of heaven on earth.

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 Like this literally, and I, and for me, I was sitting there going, this is amazing.

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 But you really looked around and you saw multi-ethnic, multi-generational, all in the same space, engaging, loving, serving one another.

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 And there was such an intentionality of pointing to Christ.

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 Like you knew Jesus was the one to be lifted up in that place.

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 And so we, um, we responded, we connected, um, as we prayed, because we had a, we had a distance between where we lived and where the, where the church building was at the time.

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 But, um, they said, you know, we see some things in you that we would love on the team.

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 And here's the thing that was beautiful about it.

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 They were inviting me to do communications at the time.

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 And really, I was a graphic designer with some, some experience in marketing, but their conversation with me is like, let's not get caught in titles.

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 I see a shepherding element in you.

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 And I see these pieces.

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 We want to invite you to be a part of this team and watch God continue to lead you in what he's doing in ministry as he leads Transformation Church and what he's doing through us.

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 And it was just, it was just like such a transparency and such a beautiful invitation right off the bat.

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 And I'll tell you, as questions came to mind before I could pick up the phone or shoot an email or send a text, people were reaching out to me before I even asked them and saying, hey, you know, we're going to do this.

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 And we, you know, marriage, your marriage is your most important ministry.

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 So here's how we want to structure days and things like that.

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 And it was just phenomenal.

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 So that was our connection.

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 I was probably longer than you asked for, but as we got connected and that was in 2012, we've been there ever since.

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 And I share this uniquely just to kind of give perspective of how much we value Transformation Church.

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 We were in Columbia, South Carolina.

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 Transformation Church is just south of Charlotte.

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 So we were about 70 plus and at one point 90 some miles away from the actual building.

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 And once we were there and experienced it, we knew it was a place that we wanted to be connected and build relationship and build family and serve God's kingdom.

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 And so, yeah, I could go on and on and on about a number of things in that space.

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 That's beautiful.

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 Now, and I do want to get to the multicultural, but your story is interesting.

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 So I want to pull the thread on something here briefly.

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 So you're a graphic artist who got inserted maybe into ministry more on the communication side without a lot of experience.

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 You told me off-air at one point you were more on the broadcast and handling more of the technological realm.

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 And now your title, you're actually more of pastoral care, pastor over care and outreach.

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 And so that's an interesting story of artistic that trends towards technical and now shepherding pastoral.

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 Like, how has that evolution been for you over the eight years?

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 Are you more bent and wired towards that shepherding?

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 Or is that just something that God's done through you in this season?

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 I have a similar bend.

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 And so I'm always interested to find people that are on that same journey.

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 Yeah, so, I mean, honestly, shepherding has probably been something that's just been in my wiring.

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 So I actually was invited into ministry as a teenager and started working with kids at that point.

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 And kind of, you know, I was just kind of working with my peers and those that were just a little bit younger than me quite often for a number of years.

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 But I remember six months in, as we kind of have your six-month review and you're kind of thinking, hey, what does this look like?

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 And I remember sitting there at that time and really just with just complete peace, being able to look at my team and say, if I'm going to be able to be in a space where I'm joining God and what he's doing in somebody else's life, then I'm going to be in a good spot.

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 And like, I didn't, I love, I still to this day, you know, I love, I'm creative.

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 I like being able to explore some of those things.

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 I haven't stuck with it near as much when I look at what Alex does and our whole team and the stuff that they create.

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 I even told our communications director a few months back, we were working on some things that were just phenomenal.

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 And I was just like, you know, if this was my job now, bro, like, you know, it was, it's, it's expanded and exploded and has moved in just tremendous ways.

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 And so I would say, yes, that's been in my wiring, um, from the beginning.

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 And at the same time, God has done just amazing things in my life of just shaping me, transforming me, conforming me, um, into, you know, opportunities and possibilities that, um, really, I think dive deeper than, than what we recognize for ourselves a lot of times.

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 And so, um, I've been grateful.

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 And again, as I told you what they, what they were telling me as I was coming on the team, um, I've literally got to experience that.

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 Um, I was groups, I was our groups pastor at one point, a groups director at one point.

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 And, um, and so it was shortly after that, that they brought me in the broadcast side of things.

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 And really, I didn't even do the technical stuff.

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 I did some of it.

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 I did some of the social media.

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 I helped write the engagement type elements,

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 but I was there to be more of a, a shepherding presence.

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 As we were saying, if we are going to go online and we're going to call ourselves a church,

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 then we need to make sure that we're prepared to serve those people, care for those people and, and really walk with people in spaces, um, and point them to what, you know, biblical community can look like.

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 And so, um, so yeah, it's been, it's been pretty awesome.

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 I love that.

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 And I got a lot of respect for Transformation Church, even that you guys were wrestling with that up front.

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 It's not just about broadcast.

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 It's the reach.

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 It's, it's building, uh, some, some of that relationship and, uh, and what that, that looks like and, and creating that community and having the ability to have that care and do things like that.

00:11:59.640 --> 00:12:00.400
 It's interesting.

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 You mentioned the Acevedo's, uh, Alex, uh, is, is, is a very good friend.

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 Christelle actually has done a podcast with us going back.

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 I want to say talking about women's ministry and doing events online.

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 I know that through Transformation Church, she had been doing a lot.

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 And I recall Ray and her doing a podcast, you know, uh, months earlier.

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 I think it was in the COVID season, but somewhere.

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 Yeah, I do remember them.

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 I do remember them doing something.

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 And, and I love seeing, you know, what, what's coming out of, out of that church.

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 And I know, and really the heart of what I wanted to dig into this conversation, uh, as, as great as that is, and maybe it's probably a little tie in at some point at the end.

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 Most things normally do towards shepherding care for individuals, community, but this idea of, of, um, of a multicultural, multi-ethnic church is, is something that for me is, is really been on my heart as, as late.

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 I was in a, I was in a Facebook group and I asked the question, do you, do you consider your church multi-ethnic?

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 Because I, I just, I've really am intrigued at, at this idea.

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 Um, I, I, I think, and, and, and, and, and I suspect that a lot of, and I'm, I'm even in Miami.

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 I'm a Miami guy.

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 It's, uh, 70% Hispanic down here.

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 Um, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm a white guy.

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 If you're listening on the audio, audio, and you've never seen a picture of me, I'm white, I'm bald, and I have a goatee.

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 Like that's, that, that's who I am.

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 Um, and so even being in Miami, being very hypersensitive to the fact that there's all sorts of nationalities, there are all sorts of cultures around me.

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 And it's one of the reasons why my family, we live here.

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 We love that, that environment.

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 We've, we've been in areas of America that were more white only, more monoculture.

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 And so for us, that wasn't necessarily the highlight.

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 We wanted to be, we wanted our kids to grow up in, in, in multicultural environments, go, you know, everything from a Cuban bakery to Cuban coffee to, you know, Brazilian steakhouses.

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 And, and I could just keep going on and on.

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 It's more than food.

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 Believe me, I understand that.

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 But the, the heart of this is, is being in a multicultural environment, I think really completes a lot of the church.

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 But when I was in this Facebook group and I, and I started asking questions like, are, do you consider your church multicultural?

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 And it, and it's funny, I started getting a lot of people to respond back, yes.

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 Now, the intriguing thing was, I knew some of the people that were, are, you know, saying these things, that are saying, yes, their church is multicultural.

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 And I'm like, I don't, I don't really know that your church is multicultural.

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 Maybe we're defining what multicultural is differently.

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 And, and, and I'm okay with that.

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 Let's, let's even, even wrestle with that.

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 Now, when I, when I look at Transformation Church, you know, Derwin Gray, lead pastor, as a matter of fact, just literally published the book within the past month on pastoring and being a multicultural church.

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 When you guys look at what a multicultural church is at Transformation, how do you define what a multicultural church is?

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 So really, you just kind of, we have to go back.

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 I could say this.

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 I don't want to say it too flippantly.

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 Um, you can look a few years ago and people would kind of say, if 20% of your, your congregation is, is non-white than your, or a non-majority population, then, then you could consider yourself to be multi-ethnic or multicultural.

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 And, and, and we obviously know that it goes deeper than that.

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 Um, it has to go deeper than that.

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 Um, if you really look, um, there's quite a few, um, it's a much larger number of mega churches across the country that actually would identify themselves and probably statistically land in a space where someone would say, well, they're multi-ethnic or they're, they have a diverse ethnicity within their congregations.

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 However, leadership is predominantly one or the other.

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 Um, you know, it's not, it's not going to be, you're not, you haven't opened the door for there to not just be presence, but literal, um, authority, decision-making, impression taking place.

00:16:04.160 --> 00:16:12.000
 Um, one of the things that we, I've loved about TC from the beginning is, is starting from the beginning and saying, this is going to be our vision.

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 It will be a multi-ethnic, multi-generational mission-shaped community that loves God completely upward, ourselves correctly inward, and our neighbors compassionately outward.

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 Um, and so that's really based in the great commandment and the great commission.

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 And so we're looking at that, right?

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 Um, right now, I think there's a lot of people that are having this conversation because we have seen, um, racial tension rise.

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 It's, it's at the forefront a little bit more in people's conversations, right?

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 Although that's existed for a really, really long time.

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 Um, I think the thing that's really important, and hopefully this is answering your question.

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 If you really want to define yourself, say, Hey, we're a multi-ethnic church.

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 Like, are you valuing all people?

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 Are you celebrating differences and living as unifiers as the family of God?

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 Are you celebrating differences and living as unifiers as the family of God?

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 There's a lot of way that unpacks through your leadership, through, through your music, through your small groups.

00:17:12.840 --> 00:17:17.180
 How does your community actually engage and do life together?

00:17:17.180 --> 00:17:25.120
 Um, is going to speak to the fact of whether you maybe have a presentation or look like something on the, you know, from an outward appearance.

00:17:25.140 --> 00:17:31.500
 But literally, are you living as what God desired his family to, to, to look like?

00:17:31.500 --> 00:17:41.100
 And not just look like, but to truly be a representation of humanity, um, that is, that is defined as a new race founded in Christ.

00:17:41.440 --> 00:17:46.020
 And, um, so anyways, that's, that's kind of my, my quick there on that.

00:17:46.920 --> 00:17:47.700
 That, that's beautiful.

00:17:47.880 --> 00:17:50.620
 Let's, let's spend some practical, let's, let's unpack this.

00:17:50.680 --> 00:17:53.640
 I love the celebrating the differences angle.

00:17:53.640 --> 00:17:58.360
 Now, um, from a practical standpoint, let's, let's just talk transformation.

00:17:58.580 --> 00:18:04.040
 What, what does celebrating the differences look like at, at TC on a regular basis?

00:18:04.800 --> 00:18:08.460
 Celebrating the differences is the reality of people.

00:18:08.460 --> 00:18:16.240
 If you look at our staff, like you're literally looking at people from so many different nationalities, right?

00:18:16.620 --> 00:18:19.720
 And you're not just there for a picture.

00:18:20.580 --> 00:18:23.180
 You're there because you bring your giftedness.

00:18:23.400 --> 00:18:26.420
 You're there because you have a heart for Christ and his church.

00:18:27.060 --> 00:18:32.820
 And so there's space for you to thrive and who God has made you to be.

00:18:33.400 --> 00:18:39.460
 Um, I use our music ministry as a quick example on a regular basis because they've been intentional.

00:18:39.460 --> 00:18:44.280
 And we actually, at our round table, um, that we just, you know, have just finished up.

00:18:44.340 --> 00:18:48.500
 We actually go through like an intensive in that space to talk through.

00:18:48.560 --> 00:18:54.440
 What does it look like to create music that most majority culture is going to hear and recognize?

00:18:54.600 --> 00:19:10.100
 And at the same time, you're, you're adding those flavors, those beats, those pieces to it that, that, you know, the non-majority culture, the minority culture, others, black, brown, white, you know, all of them are going to, they're going to feel that.

00:19:10.200 --> 00:19:12.020
 They're going to understand that they're going to relate to that.

00:19:12.140 --> 00:19:19.660
 And that doesn't mean you do a country song and then you do a Jamaican song, you know, like it's, it's literally this blend that's beautiful.

00:19:20.180 --> 00:19:25.240
 And, um, and so there's a celebration of our differences in that space.

00:19:25.240 --> 00:19:27.660
 There's an understanding of, I love this.

00:19:27.700 --> 00:19:29.020
 Pastor Derwin says this all the time.

00:19:29.020 --> 00:19:34.200
 Our lead pastor, he says, it's about laying down our preferences though and picking up the cross.

00:19:34.520 --> 00:19:38.260
 So you may hear a song that kind of moves in a specific kind of way.

00:19:38.320 --> 00:19:48.380
 That's maybe not your jam, you know, yet you get to see the person beside you, or maybe just a few rows up or several people that are responding in such a dynamic way.

00:19:48.840 --> 00:19:55.500
 Um, I know one of the beautiful things that we got to experience a while back was one of our, um, one of our pastors.

00:19:55.760 --> 00:20:05.660
 He is, um, Puerto Rican and, and as he was, you know, there for baptism, there was a family that just came to our outdoor baptism that just wandered, you know, they just kind of wandered in.

00:20:05.680 --> 00:20:06.680
 It was like, Hey, what's going on?

00:20:06.700 --> 00:20:08.860
 I think they had been invited by one of their neighbors.

00:20:09.340 --> 00:20:17.180
 And just for them to see that there was somebody representative of, of their community in that space, um, it meant so much to them.

00:20:17.260 --> 00:20:23.100
 And so there's a celebration in the fact that God has made us all uniquely.

00:20:24.040 --> 00:20:27.640
 And yet we don't want to use those differences to divide us.

00:20:27.760 --> 00:20:32.740
 How, how does God want to use those to, to unite us and celebrate and enjoy and appreciate?

00:20:33.140 --> 00:20:45.740
 And so I think the voices that are given, the spaces that are given, the authority that is given, um, just shows that we are celebrating that God has truly created us to be a people united in one purpose.

00:20:46.000 --> 00:20:55.180
 And, and, and that's his purpose, not necessarily what we, through our cultures elevate and make sacred.

00:20:55.560 --> 00:21:15.840
 You know, and that's not even getting back to biblical, like, let me, even this line from, uh, from, uh, Derwin Gray, Pastor Gray, that you mentioned the, um, the laying down of, of the preferences, like just even going to the, the Beatitudes, blessed are the poor in spirit, blessed are the, are the meek, uh, and, and everything that's in, in context there within, uh, Matthew.

00:21:16.000 --> 00:21:26.400
 So you're, you're, you're getting this posture of not let me have things my way, but instead let me humbly serve that if nothing in the life of Christ, it shows that.

00:21:26.660 --> 00:21:40.900
 And, and, and the fact that you guys are looking at, at doing this in a, in a mega giga church environment in North Carolina, where I'm sure there are times where races are very, the racial lines are very tense.

00:21:41.120 --> 00:21:48.020
 Uh, I, I love the fact that, that your church is, is encouraging even some of this humility among its people.

00:21:48.660 --> 00:21:56.640
 Now, was that, was this, has passed, and, and I don't know this, so forgive my, my ignorance, but was, was, was, was Derwin, was he there?

00:21:56.840 --> 00:21:57.680
 Did he plant the church?

00:21:57.760 --> 00:21:58.780
 Did he start the church?

00:21:59.280 --> 00:22:02.140
 Did this, did this culture exist even before him?

00:22:02.600 --> 00:22:07.040
 What, what's his involvement here, like, in, in establishing this culture in the church?

00:22:07.260 --> 00:22:19.900
 Sure. So I'll give you the quick, Pastor Derwin, um, had a ministry early on, and as he was traveling and sharing his story, you know, he was in space, he came, he came to the Lord later in life.

00:22:20.060 --> 00:22:21.960
 He's a NFL player, right, at some level?

00:22:21.960 --> 00:22:33.740
 He was an NFL player, went through the NFL years, and towards the end of his NFL career, he came to know Christ because his wife had come to know Christ, and his wife was introduced to Christ through a coworker.

00:22:34.520 --> 00:22:41.680
 And so he began, he went and shared his testimony one week, and it kind of just opened the doors for him to begin to share his testimony.

00:22:42.260 --> 00:22:45.040
 And his story is fantastically dynamic.

00:22:45.340 --> 00:22:46.940
 You have the opportunity to hear that.

00:22:47.060 --> 00:22:49.700
 You need to take the time and, um, and do that.

00:22:49.880 --> 00:22:58.420
 As, as he began to share those, something was troubling him because he's been reading the word and he's looking and he's seeing ethnicities being pointed out.

00:22:58.420 --> 00:23:10.540
 And he's seeing, and I'll give you some scriptural context to this in a second, but he's seeing scripture speak to the fact that, that the dividing wall of hostility between Jew and Gentile was to be torn down.

00:23:10.540 --> 00:23:19.920
 That there was a new race created in Christ, and yet every church conference that he went to and every event that he was a part of was predominantly a specific, a specific ethnicity.

00:23:20.660 --> 00:23:25.540
 And it was, as somebody who didn't grow up in the church, he was going, help me understand this.

00:23:26.360 --> 00:23:28.800
 My, the teams that I played for were diverse.

00:23:29.040 --> 00:23:32.340
 The club that I went to in college was diverse.

00:23:32.600 --> 00:23:38.100
 You know, like he's speaking to all these spaces that the world is, is, is displaying diversity.

00:23:38.100 --> 00:23:44.500
 And yet the one place that it should be representing and not representing is not even the right word.

00:23:44.500 --> 00:23:48.280
 It should be reflective of is in the church and it wasn't.

00:23:48.640 --> 00:23:54.580
 And so he heard a very, very adamant calling is, was don't criticize, create.

00:23:55.120 --> 00:24:08.840
 And so they set out from them and through much prayer and enduring for a lot of years, um, just set out and said, we are going to be a community that represents what God intended for his family.

00:24:09.240 --> 00:24:12.660
 And, um, and so, you know, that was huge.

00:24:12.660 --> 00:24:16.860
 And so from the get go, this was what this church was going to look like.

00:24:17.240 --> 00:24:24.160
 And, and so that's been, um, that's been the heart from the beginning as, as him and the founders came together.

00:24:24.160 --> 00:24:26.360
 They, they said, this is what this church is going to look like.

00:24:27.020 --> 00:24:27.700
 That's beautiful.

00:24:27.700 --> 00:24:34.920
 So from the get go, you're creating, you're establishing this, this DNA of multicultural, uh, he's, he's black.

00:24:34.920 --> 00:24:44.200
 Uh, you know, I know the Acevedo's who I'm referencing, they're Hispanic, uh, from, and so even seeing that on video, I don't want to call you out publicly, you're a white dude.

00:24:44.200 --> 00:24:57.000
 So even just in the context of the people that, that I know you're, uh, I mean, you're already seeing some of the multicultural that, and you're using language, you know, even among, among your staff and leadership to, to kind of celebrate those differences.

00:24:57.000 --> 00:25:03.920
 You're talking about kind of even some things like the musical beats, uh, of it to kind of celebrate some of that.

00:25:04.420 --> 00:25:07.520
 Um, what, what are the other practical ways?

00:25:07.600 --> 00:25:13.040
 I mean, there's, and I want to make it, we all know this, especially you being someone who's involved in shepherding and pastoral care.

00:25:13.180 --> 00:25:17.320
 There's more than just, um, church than just what happens in the one hour on Sunday.

00:25:17.520 --> 00:25:18.940
 Used to be a small groups guy.

00:25:19.220 --> 00:25:26.700
 So talk to me a little bit here beyond even just like doing that, the musical portion of that.

00:25:26.980 --> 00:25:32.660
 How is a church really operating in a multicultural sense?

00:25:32.780 --> 00:25:33.740
 What, what, what does that look like?

00:25:34.660 --> 00:25:49.000
 I think you have to go to a foundation that is, um, one of the first series, and I wasn't even there for this initial series, but then we, we kind of revamped it and did it again, speaking to, to Nehemiah and say, we are going to stay on this wall.

00:25:49.080 --> 00:25:50.240
 This is what God has called us to.

00:25:50.360 --> 00:25:52.660
 And Paul said, I have been called to this gospel.

00:25:52.980 --> 00:25:55.040
 And he was so specific in that.

00:25:55.080 --> 00:25:58.680
 And so you have to have a vision that doesn't change every year.

00:25:59.920 --> 00:26:17.060
 Um, and I think it's really important that, that we say this right now, while we understand that there is, um, awareness that's happening in our current climate and in our current culture that, that we absolutely want to welcome.

00:26:17.600 --> 00:26:25.220
 Um, we need to have a foundation that is based in the heart of God and, and in who he is.

00:26:25.480 --> 00:26:29.640
 Otherwise, you end up with ideologies that don't hold up.

00:26:30.320 --> 00:26:38.400
 So you're not, if you're not pointing back to God's heart in these spaces, then when you think about your small groups, well, why can't we just do this?

00:26:38.480 --> 00:26:41.220
 Or when you think about your music, why can't we just do this?

00:26:41.480 --> 00:26:43.800
 You have to go back to this is why.

00:26:44.260 --> 00:26:50.360
 And it's, and it will less than be about why can't we do this to look what we get to be a part of.

00:26:51.860 --> 00:26:59.720
 Um, so a lot of times I know my eyes have been opened over the last several years and it's just been absolutely mind blowing.

00:27:00.540 --> 00:27:09.500
 But when we typically think about the gospel for most people, one of the first scriptures, I mean, you might think of the Romans road, but one of the first scriptures that come to mind is John 3 16 for God.

00:27:09.500 --> 00:27:15.660
 So love the world that he, that he gave his one and only son that whoever believes in him will not perish, but have everlasting life.

00:27:16.140 --> 00:27:21.760
 And, and that's a phenomenal passage of scripture that speaks to the redemption of humanity.

00:27:21.760 --> 00:27:26.880
 And it speaks of, of you and I being able to, to be in relationship with God.

00:27:26.880 --> 00:27:36.100
 But the, the big thing that God did is, is that he not only reconciled us to himself through Christ, but he empowers us through the Holy spirit to be reconciled to one another.

00:27:36.240 --> 00:27:37.180
 Well, what is that?

00:27:37.400 --> 00:27:40.480
 What does reconciliation to one another as humanity looks like?

00:27:40.660 --> 00:27:42.900
 This is one of the scriptures that kind of blew my mind.

00:27:42.900 --> 00:27:49.620
 Galatians chapter three, verse eight says the scripture saw in advance that God would justify the Gentiles by faith.

00:27:50.000 --> 00:27:57.680
 And he proclaimed the gospel ahead of time to Abraham saying all the nations will be blessed through you.

00:27:59.240 --> 00:28:05.500
 So he told the good news to Abraham before Jesus was physically on the scene.

00:28:06.100 --> 00:28:07.500
 And what did he say?

00:28:07.860 --> 00:28:09.860
 All the nations will be blessed through you.

00:28:10.400 --> 00:28:14.880
 He's saying that beyond the Jews, people will know that I am the Lord.

00:28:15.560 --> 00:28:27.700
 So if you think about it, historical context, Genesis chapter 11, what you have is tower of Babel, everybody getting separated, scattered to their own spaces, own languages, own ways of doing.

00:28:28.080 --> 00:28:33.980
 Chapter 12, God comes to Abraham, Abram at the time and says, I'm going to get my family back.

00:28:34.900 --> 00:28:38.200
 And so you're like, okay, he's saying he wants to get his family back.

00:28:38.260 --> 00:28:43.200
 He says, I'm going to bless all nations, all ethnos through you.

00:28:44.220 --> 00:28:54.040
 Verse 14 of Galatians chapter three says, the purpose was that the blessing of Abraham would come to the Gentiles by Christ Jesus so that we could receive the promised Holy spirit through faith.

00:28:54.540 --> 00:28:58.600
 So you're seeing Jesus's role in this and he's making a new people.

00:28:58.680 --> 00:29:03.620
 Because if you look at Acts chapter two and you look at the day of Pentecost, Jesus has come.

00:29:03.900 --> 00:29:08.860
 He's given a commission already that says, you're going to go to all the nations and you're going to make disciples.

00:29:09.100 --> 00:29:12.080
 So you're seeing ethnos continually, continually.

00:29:12.240 --> 00:29:13.000
 This is what I'm doing.

00:29:13.100 --> 00:29:14.960
 This is what my family is going to look like.

00:29:15.000 --> 00:29:17.620
 This is how the world and humanity is going to be blessed.

00:29:18.020 --> 00:29:21.040
 This is God's heart from the beginning for his family and for his church.

00:29:21.560 --> 00:29:29.600
 So if you look at Revelation chapter five, powerful, powerful passage, and they sang a new song.

00:29:29.860 --> 00:29:41.360
 You're worthy to take the scroll and open its seals because you were slaughtered and you purchased people for God by your blood from every tribe and language and people and nation.

00:29:41.740 --> 00:29:46.040
 You made them a kingdom and priests to our God and they will reign on the earth.

00:29:46.960 --> 00:29:52.800
 So these are just, I just mentioning very specific ones, but throughout scripture, the narrative is this.

00:29:53.280 --> 00:29:57.020
 God was going to have a family and it was going to be made up of all people.

00:29:58.140 --> 00:30:13.120
 And if he's saying his family needs to look like this, then the body of Christ, the literal body of Christ, now the kingdom come, are active in the earth, needs to be representative of that.

00:30:14.180 --> 00:30:18.240
 That's why multi-ethnic church matters, because it's always been God's heart.

00:30:18.740 --> 00:30:19.880
 This is not a model.

00:30:20.140 --> 00:30:23.520
 It's not something sociological that we're just addressing right now.

00:30:23.820 --> 00:30:26.160
 It literally has been God's heart from the beginning.

00:30:26.400 --> 00:30:32.960
 And so I know I kind of hit those quick, but Ephesians chapter two is another amazing passage.

00:30:33.040 --> 00:30:33.740
 He's chapter three.

00:30:34.080 --> 00:30:41.460
 You listen to Paul as he just teaches and unpacks over and over again how he was going to minister in these spaces.

00:30:41.860 --> 00:30:46.640
 But you look throughout scripture and ethnicity was highlighted on a regular basis.

00:30:46.740 --> 00:30:49.160
 We get people a lot of times, why y'all talk about race so much?

00:30:50.400 --> 00:30:55.800
 It wasn't an accident that the Great Commission said, go to all nations and make disciples.

00:30:56.340 --> 00:31:02.340
 It wasn't by accident that the first person that Jesus told he was the Messiah to.

00:31:07.200 --> 00:31:09.400
 Sorry, just having a moment.

00:31:09.520 --> 00:31:10.480
 Kind of builds up sometimes.

00:31:10.560 --> 00:31:15.180
 You just think about all the different things that how intentional our God is, was a Samaritan woman.

00:31:15.840 --> 00:31:16.200
 Wow.

00:31:17.520 --> 00:31:23.180
 Somebody that was despised by the Jewish people and Jewish people were despised by them.

00:31:24.180 --> 00:31:28.920
 And that was the first person he said, I'm the bread of life.

00:31:29.680 --> 00:31:31.420
 I will quench your thirst.

00:31:31.880 --> 00:31:38.320
 And she was the first one then to take and go tell, hey, I just met one.

00:31:38.420 --> 00:31:39.460
 I believe he's the Messiah.

00:31:40.280 --> 00:31:51.000
 And so God has been intentional throughout his story to establish the fact that his church will represent a multifaceted,

00:31:51.000 --> 00:32:00.620
 a beautiful, diverse, socioeconomic, you know, ethnic, generational body of people together.

00:32:01.320 --> 00:32:02.820
 And I think here's what's really important.

00:32:03.360 --> 00:32:11.820
 And is when you think about if we, if we're having this conversation because we're the church and we want to glorify Christ,

00:32:12.520 --> 00:32:20.540
 Jesus's prayer in John chapter 17, before he's, he's starting to progress off the scene, his prayer is for his disciples,

00:32:20.720 --> 00:32:25.860
 but he's, his prayers for the words that they would be putting together, the testimony that they would be,

00:32:25.860 --> 00:32:32.440
 and how that would show forth to us, that, that he literally was sent from God, the father,

00:32:33.000 --> 00:32:35.940
 and it would be reflective through their unity.

00:32:36.620 --> 00:32:39.320
 And now it'll be reflected through our unity.

00:32:39.800 --> 00:32:47.280
 What better picture can we be to the world today when there's so many things, ideologies that divide us that shouldn't,

00:32:47.380 --> 00:32:52.060
 but instead we're showing the world that, no, we genuinely love and care for each other.

00:32:52.240 --> 00:32:54.740
 We're not just here for a presentation on Sunday.

00:32:54.920 --> 00:32:58.760
 We're not just here for an event that gets together, but literally.

00:32:58.920 --> 00:33:09.880
 Now, to answer your question from the practical standpoint, they started six months in, they had to wait to do groups

00:33:09.880 --> 00:33:13.940
 because the first flood of people was very, very monoethnic.

00:33:14.100 --> 00:33:15.720
 And they said, no, that's not what we're called to.

00:33:16.080 --> 00:33:19.480
 And so we're going to take some time and we're going to, we're going to disciple these folks.

00:33:19.500 --> 00:33:20.600
 And we're going to talk through this.

00:33:20.620 --> 00:33:22.600
 We're going to take them back into, to this.

00:33:22.620 --> 00:33:24.060
 And we're going to pray and we're going to wait.

00:33:24.080 --> 00:33:29.840
 And then God began to raise up leaders and then they decided, yeah, okay, we feel the freedom now to move forward

00:33:29.840 --> 00:33:31.460
 and starting our small group ministry.

00:33:32.360 --> 00:33:39.500
 And, you know, and that story exists throughout several spaces, but we started with a vision that we were committed to

00:33:39.500 --> 00:33:40.960
 and we believed that it was God's heart.

00:33:41.060 --> 00:33:42.900
 And so you've got to continue to come back to that.

00:33:43.000 --> 00:33:45.100
 So then everything comes through that vision.

00:33:45.460 --> 00:33:51.660
 If you're starting a new ministry, if you're thinking about something else that's going to be taking place in your body,

00:33:51.760 --> 00:33:54.520
 then it needs to be reflective of that, of that vision.

00:33:55.300 --> 00:34:02.440
 And, um, and so all the different spaces, you know, our groups are intentionally multi-ethnic and multi-generational.

00:34:02.680 --> 00:34:08.500
 Now we do other groups for short said periods of time, because we all know that, I mean,

00:34:08.520 --> 00:34:14.180
 even if you're looking at a first generation, perhaps, you know, immigrant, or you're looking at, um,

00:34:14.320 --> 00:34:19.840
 even somebody just joining the church, joining a small group is not necessarily the first thing that they're thinking about doing.

00:34:19.940 --> 00:34:23.740
 So you have to be intentional in those spaces to continue to bring people along.

00:34:23.840 --> 00:34:30.000
 But we're pointing to get connected and engaged in diverse community, um, because this is God's family.

00:34:30.000 --> 00:34:31.960
 And this is what, this is what we need to look like.

00:34:32.000 --> 00:34:33.240
 We need to value one another.

00:34:33.240 --> 00:34:34.500
 We need to celebrate one another.

00:34:34.580 --> 00:34:35.740
 We need to get to know one another.

00:34:36.220 --> 00:34:40.920
 And when Christ is at the foundation of that, but you're actually doing relationship with each other,

00:34:40.920 --> 00:34:53.460
 as you're serving alongside each other, as you're stepping into places that intentionally are recognizing the, the, the folks that have been, for lack of a better word, outcasts, they've been set over here.

00:34:53.460 --> 00:34:57.440
 Um, the system has not been built to support, then you need to be a voice.

00:34:57.440 --> 00:35:00.180
 As it says in Proverbs 31, for those who don't have a voice.

00:35:00.280 --> 00:35:02.460
 So you step into these spaces together.

00:35:02.820 --> 00:35:12.960
 Um, you're continually, um, encountering opportunities to be in community together, getting to know your brother and sister, their story, the shoes that they've walked in.

00:35:13.060 --> 00:35:32.440
 And, and, and in that grace and humility, seeking to be, seeking to really understand before being understood, um, knowing that a sanctifying work is going to be happening for every person that's involved is, um, is, is all a part of how it really gets lived out.

00:35:32.900 --> 00:35:46.440
 Um, um, I'll give you this, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, an example that was really, so I was groups director at the time and we had an officer involved shooting in, um, Charlotte.

00:35:46.760 --> 00:35:52.420
 And so the city was very, very, um, it was a hot, it was a hot spot.

00:35:52.420 --> 00:36:02.880
 Um, and, and we got together, invited people out that night to pray, to point people back to God's word and, and just heard.

00:36:02.900 --> 00:36:03.760
 How do we love each other?

00:36:03.820 --> 00:36:06.300
 How do we seek to understand what's going on right now?

00:36:06.380 --> 00:36:12.960
 How do we show support in the proper kind of ways, um, that, that, that, that needs to look.

00:36:13.040 --> 00:36:21.340
 And so as our groups got together, then even that Sunday, as Pastor Durham was preaching, as our groups got together, there were things that bubbled to the surface.

00:36:21.920 --> 00:36:27.000
 Um, there were things that people began to talk about because they had had enough of people not understanding and questioning.

00:36:27.200 --> 00:36:33.120
 And then others had had enough of feeling like things were being put in their face, but they didn't understand all that was behind it.

00:36:33.480 --> 00:36:48.780
 And so you saw people that had been in community for perhaps years and they were facing conflict, but because they had true, genuine relationship with one another, they endured in that space.

00:36:50.660 --> 00:36:56.400
 They yelled, they yelled, they got in some arguments, but then they came back together and they said, hold on.

00:36:56.460 --> 00:36:58.020
 I know you, hold on.

00:36:58.120 --> 00:36:59.600
 You're my sister or brother in Christ.

00:37:00.220 --> 00:37:07.880
 I think I need to understand some things and I need to spend some time with you because, um, my perspective is my perspective.

00:37:08.360 --> 00:37:20.900
 And I've probably been very limited in that, um, and, um, and in that, I mean, you, like I said, sanctification has to happen.

00:37:21.000 --> 00:37:24.940
 You don't just undo hundreds of years of systematic injustice.

00:37:25.320 --> 00:37:28.760
 You know, you literally have to walk together in that.

00:37:29.060 --> 00:37:35.780
 And, um, when I say hundreds, that's hundreds for this country, you know, um, we know that it was far, far before that.

00:37:35.780 --> 00:37:40.240
 And, um, so anyways, there's some, I know that was a lot.

00:37:40.380 --> 00:37:41.540
 I said a lot, man.

00:37:41.640 --> 00:37:44.140
 Yeah, that was, that was, that was a lot there.

00:37:44.180 --> 00:37:46.420
 I mean, let's, let's not even back up and forget.

00:37:46.540 --> 00:37:59.820
 You literally took us on a biblical journey from Genesis to Revelation, talking about multicultural and now even like hundreds of years going through, um, uh, reconciliation, grace and humility.

00:38:00.420 --> 00:38:07.780
 Um, you know, and I don't want to get lost on, on, on this listening is, is even the, the first step towards understanding.

00:38:07.780 --> 00:38:19.500
 Um, and, and, and it's not, um, it's not monologuing your, your way to understanding, but listening and processing and grieving along the way with that.

00:38:19.720 --> 00:38:25.420
 Uh, which, which almost gets me to, to this, this next thing that I wanted to, to work with.

00:38:25.460 --> 00:38:26.860
 And so obviously we do a lot.

00:38:27.400 --> 00:38:30.160
 And the podcast is literally called the church digital podcast.

00:38:30.160 --> 00:38:37.720
 So we talk a lot about digital church, church online, digital churches, churches that operate physically and digitally.

00:38:37.720 --> 00:38:45.480
 And I know transformation, you guys have an excellent digital strategy and operations that compliment your church physically and in digital space.

00:38:45.720 --> 00:38:49.040
 Um, we even work with digital only expressions of church.

00:38:49.040 --> 00:38:55.980
 We've, we've got, I've got friends that are, that are launching churches in, in Twitch using discord towards video gamers.

00:38:55.980 --> 00:39:02.500
 We've, we've had guys on here that do virtual reality church, um, you know, Roblox church, Facebook church.

00:39:02.500 --> 00:39:06.460
 Like we, we really work in this, in this bleeding edge, right?

00:39:06.760 --> 00:39:09.820
 And so pre COVID people thought we were crazy.

00:39:10.140 --> 00:39:15.720
 Now mid post COVID, some people still think we're crazy, but some people at least, Hey, you know what, give it a shot.

00:39:15.800 --> 00:39:16.700
 Let's, let's see what happens.

00:39:17.600 --> 00:39:29.380
 This whole multicultural thing, like it's, it's, it's given me pause a little bit, you know, what, what does it mean to be a multicultural church digitally?

00:39:29.760 --> 00:39:35.380
 You know, a lot of, a lot of the churches, and I don't want to kind of over-speak here, but let's wrestle with it.

00:39:35.460 --> 00:39:39.760
 A lot of our churches are, you know, you talk about celebrating the differences.

00:39:40.440 --> 00:39:48.700
 A lot of churches are monocultural in that they're not necessarily celebrating that on a stage.

00:39:48.860 --> 00:39:53.800
 Maybe it's more of in the audience and in other ways engaging with that.

00:39:53.800 --> 00:40:02.720
 I'm not saying they're racist, but I'm saying it's, it's more towards, it's a mono kind of cultural experience from the stage.

00:40:03.080 --> 00:40:18.400
 Now in a digital environment, if I'm monocultural and that's what I'm celebrating by, by putting out, but my audience who's completely separated in digital space is multicultural, but they're isolated.

00:40:18.400 --> 00:40:23.840
 So once again, it feels kind of monocultural and, and truly like, this is an answer.

00:40:23.840 --> 00:40:40.020
 I don't know the answer to this question, but it's more of, as I look at digital churches, I really start to wrestle with, what does it mean to be multicultural in, in a church that's operating digitally where there's isolation among the viewers?

00:40:40.020 --> 00:40:44.900
 And so Transformation Church obviously has a very strong digital strategy.

00:40:44.900 --> 00:40:47.140
 Have you guys wrestled with this?

00:40:47.140 --> 00:40:49.380
 What does it mean to be multicultural, digital?

00:40:49.380 --> 00:40:54.180
 How does that, how does that look like for you guys from, at least from a digital perspective?

00:40:54.180 --> 00:41:02.060
 Yeah, so I'm just trying to think the best way to say this.

00:41:02.060 --> 00:41:12.300
 Um, we've spent our entire purpose and existence wanting to be intentional in this space.

00:41:13.740 --> 00:41:19.380
 So what we're offering is going to reflect it.

00:41:19.380 --> 00:41:23.800
 And so what I mean by that is our service didn't change, right?

00:41:23.860 --> 00:41:28.060
 We're continuing to offer the service that we are, the worship time, the message.

00:41:28.440 --> 00:41:35.400
 So like, you know, our message is, I'll use this example, you know, people, a lot of times

00:41:35.400 --> 00:41:36.900
 will ask Pastor Dermall, you know, what are you doing?

00:41:37.080 --> 00:41:39.400
 You know, what are you doing to celebrate Martin Luther King day?

00:41:39.520 --> 00:41:43.980
 And he's like, well, our very existence is celebrating Martin Luther King, what he stood for.

00:41:45.000 --> 00:41:50.300
 Um, our very existence speaks to the one who had the dream before he had the dream and that's

00:41:50.300 --> 00:41:50.700
 Christ.

00:41:51.040 --> 00:41:57.280
 And so like, we'll share those things in that context on purpose, um, to kind of give some

00:41:57.280 --> 00:42:04.320
 perspective that like what we're doing on a regular basis is a display of God's family

00:42:04.320 --> 00:42:07.500
 as a multi-ethnic, multi-generational community and people.

00:42:08.220 --> 00:42:14.900
 And so really for us, it was making the things available that we do already.

00:42:14.900 --> 00:42:21.140
 And we, we've seen our team pivot in amazing ways, but you know, we already had some groups

00:42:21.140 --> 00:42:26.760
 somewhat consider meeting online, but all of our groups went to online and we've had people

00:42:26.760 --> 00:42:31.020
 joining our church from, from all over the country and all over the world over the last

00:42:31.020 --> 00:42:37.380
 year, like literally joining, attending our, our membership classes online, connecting and

00:42:37.380 --> 00:42:37.780
 engaging.

00:42:37.780 --> 00:42:46.580
 So really you have to give people the opportunity to really go, Hey, they are who they say they

00:42:46.580 --> 00:42:46.840
 are.

00:42:47.220 --> 00:42:49.920
 And that is reflected in our, in our message.

00:42:49.920 --> 00:42:51.560
 That's reflected through our music.

00:42:51.560 --> 00:42:53.380
 That's reflected through our small groups.

00:42:53.380 --> 00:42:56.980
 That's reflected through the things that we continue to make a priority.

00:42:57.540 --> 00:43:02.940
 And so if we look at the gospel, the gospel is going to constantly speak to elements of

00:43:02.940 --> 00:43:06.200
 unity and justice, but it's going to do it from a biblical perspective.

00:43:06.200 --> 00:43:11.500
 It's going to speak to the importance of valuing people beyond the color of their skin.

00:43:12.320 --> 00:43:17.540
 And, and so as we look at that and we look at God's heart and continue to wrap that all

00:43:17.540 --> 00:43:23.500
 the time, you know, like from a foundation of who Christ is, then it's going to overflow in the

00:43:23.500 --> 00:43:24.780
 spaces that we have opportunity.

00:43:24.780 --> 00:43:30.760
 So we've continued in a digital platform and now have even begun to work with our outreach

00:43:30.760 --> 00:43:36.780
 ministry to, to make, you know, Hey, here's some things that we've had the opportunity to do.

00:43:37.020 --> 00:43:41.940
 And one of the things that we said as, as far as being a body and being present in a community,

00:43:41.940 --> 00:43:43.900
 we're in Indian land, South Carolina.

00:43:43.900 --> 00:43:46.580
 Like I said, it's about six miles South of the border of North Carolina.

00:43:47.320 --> 00:43:49.280
 We're right there in that space.

00:43:49.280 --> 00:43:54.680
 If God has planted us here, this place should change as a result of us being here.

00:43:55.180 --> 00:43:57.420
 People should be in an uproar if we decide to leave.

00:43:58.280 --> 00:44:03.260
 Now we tell people that, and yet as we've grown because of where we're located, we have people

00:44:03.260 --> 00:44:07.240
 attending from 45 minutes and an hour away that, that would drive to the building and come

00:44:07.240 --> 00:44:07.980
 and be a part of that.

00:44:08.340 --> 00:44:12.680
 So we've had to continue to remind people that the church is not the building.

00:44:12.800 --> 00:44:16.400
 It's not the events that we're, that we're opening up and making available.

00:44:16.520 --> 00:44:21.220
 It's you being, you know, on mission in your sphere of influence.

00:44:21.740 --> 00:44:27.120
 So as we say that we're looking at those that are watching online and we're, and we're taking

00:44:27.120 --> 00:44:31.020
 what we're having the opportunity to do here and say, Hey, here's some pieces that we want

00:44:31.020 --> 00:44:32.520
 you to be able to participate in too.

00:44:32.660 --> 00:44:35.000
 So if you want to serve, we're doing our rollout hope ministry.

00:44:35.000 --> 00:44:39.640
 That's going to mainly impact our local community, but you're giving is touching these things,

00:44:39.640 --> 00:44:42.280
 these things, these things, these things, which go beyond us.

00:44:42.340 --> 00:44:45.200
 They go into our regions and they go nationally and they go globally.

00:44:45.880 --> 00:44:49.480
 And so God has began, you know, really shaped us to take who we are.

00:44:50.080 --> 00:44:51.200
 That hasn't changed.

00:44:51.660 --> 00:44:52.840
 That just translates now.

00:44:52.920 --> 00:44:58.020
 So you're saying you, if you have the thought process of like, and I totally understand where

00:44:58.020 --> 00:44:58.640
 you're coming from.

00:44:58.720 --> 00:45:00.840
 This person's over here, maybe isolated.

00:45:00.940 --> 00:45:06.680
 And some people have been, but our care ministry is continuing to connect and do our meetings.

00:45:07.220 --> 00:45:10.700
 Um, you know, we're connecting with the servant leaders, which is what we call volunteers or

00:45:10.700 --> 00:45:11.240
 servant leaders.

00:45:11.660 --> 00:45:15.900
 And, and so as those people are coming together, they're still having opportunity, even though

00:45:15.900 --> 00:45:22.180
 it's in a digital space, we have had some of the most amazing conversations over the last

00:45:22.180 --> 00:45:23.360
 year through zoom.

00:45:24.140 --> 00:45:25.500
 Um, I was blown away.

00:45:25.580 --> 00:45:30.900
 One of our first meetings, um, that we had with our care ministry, there were probably around

00:45:30.900 --> 00:45:33.000
 60 to 70 people that signed up for it.

00:45:33.220 --> 00:45:38.560
 And I was blown away at how transparent people were with where they were, how they were processing

00:45:38.560 --> 00:45:41.080
 the pandemic, how they were, some of them were processing loss.

00:45:41.220 --> 00:45:47.660
 And then as, as the racial tensions rose and came to the forefront, the beauty of the conversations

00:45:47.660 --> 00:45:51.880
 that were happening with people, um, it, it, it continued.

00:45:52.120 --> 00:45:58.280
 So, I mean, the short answer is it just continued and overflowed into that space, but it, there's

00:45:58.280 --> 00:46:04.180
 a lot that you need to think about as far as your intentionality, because, and I don't, I'll say

00:46:04.180 --> 00:46:05.080
 this for clarity.

00:46:05.240 --> 00:46:09.320
 I don't say this as like any kind of indictment or anything, but we've got to be careful that

00:46:09.320 --> 00:46:11.060
 we aren't invitations to assimilation.

00:46:11.360 --> 00:46:14.860
 We really are invitations to celebrate one another.

00:46:15.060 --> 00:46:20.300
 We really are invitations to, in that same space, lay down our preferences and pick up our

00:46:20.300 --> 00:46:20.680
 cross.

00:46:20.920 --> 00:46:26.460
 And so if we're creating that space rooted and grounded in Christ, humbled by the Holy

00:46:26.460 --> 00:46:31.460
 Spirit, responding to him and not creating our own thing, not creating this multicultural

00:46:31.460 --> 00:46:37.180
 place, but responding and joining Jesus and what his mission has always been, then it's

00:46:37.180 --> 00:46:38.640
 going to translate into spaces.

00:46:38.900 --> 00:46:41.140
 And you'll have to be intentional though, for that to happen.

00:46:41.920 --> 00:46:48.540
 So, yeah, you can't just, you know, you can't just flippantly, you know, whatever, but as

00:46:48.540 --> 00:46:51.480
 we're putting it out there, we're really believing in the work of the Holy Spirit, that this is

00:46:51.480 --> 00:46:56.340
 his heart and he's going to give us opportunity just to reinforce that and to do that in these,

00:46:56.460 --> 00:46:57.800
 in this broader reach.

00:46:58.400 --> 00:46:59.600
 That was so good.

00:46:59.780 --> 00:47:02.800
 I, even, even as you're talking, I just reflected back.

00:47:02.860 --> 00:47:07.980
 I'm trying to remember who said this, but, you know, digital is a, is an amplifier of,

00:47:07.980 --> 00:47:15.460
 of who you are physically and, and even to what you're saying of, Hey, it's just, it amplifies

00:47:15.460 --> 00:47:18.580
 our, our DNA, our culture of, of who we are.

00:47:18.640 --> 00:47:25.200
 If we're a, a multicultural church and we're, we're living that way as, as a church physically,

00:47:25.200 --> 00:47:28.240
 then it's going to mirror in, in the digital space.

00:47:28.240 --> 00:47:33.740
 If we're celebrating our differences, if, if we're laying down our preferences, um, and,

00:47:33.740 --> 00:47:40.580
 and if we're being a, a humble church, um, that is going to exist and it's going to show

00:47:40.580 --> 00:47:43.820
 itself physically and digitally.

00:47:43.820 --> 00:47:46.800
 And so that, that's such a, a good word there.

00:47:47.100 --> 00:47:48.100
 Love that heart.

00:47:48.220 --> 00:47:49.120
 Love that challenge.

00:47:49.540 --> 00:47:53.480
 Uh, but, and, and even let's, let's pick on that challenge a little bit.

00:47:53.960 --> 00:47:54.400
 Okay.

00:47:54.400 --> 00:47:56.240
 So I'm at, I'm at a church.

00:47:56.340 --> 00:47:59.940
 Hey, the church, the church that I'm at, I mean, there's plenty of, there is a ton of

00:47:59.940 --> 00:48:01.820
 people who are asking these questions right now, listening.

00:48:02.260 --> 00:48:04.240
 Hey, uh, I'm, I'm, I'm at a church.

00:48:04.340 --> 00:48:09.740
 We're very monocultural, uh, you know, mon, mono, and, and I'm not even picking up, uh,

00:48:09.880 --> 00:48:10.700
 uh, don't, doesn't matter.

00:48:11.200 --> 00:48:12.680
 We're, we're only celebrating one thing.

00:48:13.200 --> 00:48:16.920
 Uh, how, how, how do I even, how do I start to change?

00:48:17.020 --> 00:48:21.120
 What, what do I do to go from a, from a mono to a multi?

00:48:21.120 --> 00:48:23.120
 How do I start celebrating differences?

00:48:23.880 --> 00:48:25.400
 What, what, what does that need to look like?

00:48:25.440 --> 00:48:26.440
 How do, how do I transition?

00:48:27.200 --> 00:48:27.420
 Yeah.

00:48:27.540 --> 00:48:31.680
 And I mean, I think you're asking a very realistic question has 17,000 answers.

00:48:32.160 --> 00:48:41.340
 Um, um, you know, one of the things we talk about at the round table, and I say, we talk

00:48:41.340 --> 00:48:47.140
 about it all the time, but you, we're not going to build a multi-ethnic church if we don't

00:48:47.140 --> 00:48:48.600
 first have a multi-ethnic life.

00:48:49.520 --> 00:48:52.960
 And that multi-ethnic life has to be recognized again.

00:48:53.240 --> 00:48:57.620
 I'll say, I'm going to keep saying it because we want to go back to God's heart for his church.

00:48:57.700 --> 00:48:58.780
 So what does that look like?

00:48:58.800 --> 00:49:00.660
 What does it look like to value my neighbor?

00:49:02.140 --> 00:49:07.840
 Um, I've heard people say this a lot, and there's even a popular like CCM song right now

00:49:07.840 --> 00:49:11.940
 that, that speaks to the fact that, you know, we're, we're willing to do our missions overseas,

00:49:11.940 --> 00:49:18.920
 but we actually have a problem with those who are overseas being here.

00:49:19.920 --> 00:49:22.960
 And, um, and yet they're our neighbor.

00:49:24.260 --> 00:49:32.980
 Like how we, we have to have some things I think unearthed and different.

00:49:33.080 --> 00:49:38.680
 And I, so I think it really starts first and foremost with a posture of just coming before

00:49:38.680 --> 00:49:44.520
 the Lord and going, God, I need to recognize that there's differences than maybe how I've

00:49:44.520 --> 00:49:45.300
 perceived things.

00:49:45.600 --> 00:49:50.280
 I think there was tons of YouTube videos that were put out like years ago, like just within

00:49:50.280 --> 00:49:51.540
 the last five years or so.

00:49:51.620 --> 00:49:56.020
 And, and, you know, and it's like, you got this wall and you got all these people lined up

00:49:56.020 --> 00:50:01.340
 on it and, and the person kind of out in the middle, you know, of a field or a gymnasium

00:50:01.340 --> 00:50:04.360
 starts speaking to specific things and people begin walking forward.

00:50:04.540 --> 00:50:07.000
 You know, they say, how many went to a private school?

00:50:07.240 --> 00:50:08.600
 How many were homeschooled?

00:50:08.860 --> 00:50:10.220
 Um, how many grew up in the city?

00:50:10.280 --> 00:50:11.440
 How many grew up in the country?

00:50:11.960 --> 00:50:14.700
 Um, how many of you grew up with both parents?

00:50:14.780 --> 00:50:16.020
 How many of you grew up with one parent?

00:50:16.120 --> 00:50:17.280
 I mean, we're adopted.

00:50:17.660 --> 00:50:25.360
 As you start to think about these, these simple differences, um, it should cause you to pause

00:50:25.360 --> 00:50:30.040
 and realize that your perspective and experience is not the barometer for how everybody else

00:50:30.040 --> 00:50:30.520
 has lived.

00:50:31.240 --> 00:50:37.340
 And when we recognize that, you know, and see the fact that there are these possible differences,

00:50:37.340 --> 00:50:44.780
 then we should be willing to hear and understand where somebody else has walked, what somebody

00:50:44.780 --> 00:50:47.880
 else has experienced and, and that in itself.

00:50:47.880 --> 00:50:52.280
 So I love the simple way of saying it is like, let's, let's seek to understand before trying

00:50:52.280 --> 00:50:53.000
 to be understood.

00:50:54.460 --> 00:50:58.640
 And another thing that I think is important, and I'll just, I'm going to hit this one quick

00:50:58.640 --> 00:50:59.400
 and keep moving.

00:50:59.840 --> 00:51:02.240
 But we talk about it all the time.

00:51:02.880 --> 00:51:07.680
 There is an adultery in this country when it comes to politics.

00:51:08.820 --> 00:51:11.340
 And we talk about it all the time at TC.

00:51:11.860 --> 00:51:16.900
 That is, you know, we do not follow the party of the donkey or the party of the elephant.

00:51:16.900 --> 00:51:18.760
 We follow the party of the lamb.

00:51:20.660 --> 00:51:31.320
 And that has to be central and first and foremost, because ideologies then begin to outweigh our

00:51:31.320 --> 00:51:31.940
 first love.

00:51:34.100 --> 00:51:38.280
 And, and so I go back to, and I'm going to, I'll read, well, no, I'll save that.

00:51:38.400 --> 00:51:46.080
 I'll save that kind of as a closing thought, but, you know, so we have, we have some spaces

00:51:46.080 --> 00:51:51.560
 that we have to be intentional in, but I, I think it really starts with saying, God, I'm

00:51:51.560 --> 00:51:53.740
 not going to pretend that I'm, I'm going to know it all.

00:51:54.500 --> 00:51:58.620
 And I don't think people are sitting back thinking that I'm now, as I look and I hear your

00:51:58.620 --> 00:52:02.800
 question, I hear a genuine desire to say, I want to understand differently.

00:52:04.100 --> 00:52:10.300
 You know, it, it may be research and some things I can think of different books that you can

00:52:10.300 --> 00:52:10.760
 be looking at.

00:52:10.820 --> 00:52:17.260
 And I would start building a multi-ethnic church, um, pastor Derwin's book that he just released.

00:52:17.720 --> 00:52:22.800
 And, and, and we do a round table on that, that piggybacks on that, did that in April.

00:52:23.020 --> 00:52:27.140
 We will do it again in the fall, but we're going to make content available for that as well.

00:52:27.140 --> 00:52:30.100
 But this is, you get the theological foundation.

00:52:30.340 --> 00:52:37.300
 You look at some very important practical steps of vision casting, and then practicing

00:52:37.300 --> 00:52:38.720
 this amongst your body.

00:52:39.000 --> 00:52:44.420
 And then we, we wrap it up with gospel shaped soul care, which is, we think is super important

00:52:44.420 --> 00:52:48.700
 because we've got to be in a healthy space if we're going to love and really care for those

00:52:48.700 --> 00:52:49.320
 around us.

00:52:49.520 --> 00:52:53.520
 And, um, but it, I mean, we, we do panels in that space.

00:52:53.520 --> 00:52:57.500
 It's other leaders who are saying, how do we take this step forward?

00:52:57.500 --> 00:52:59.900
 Because there's a lot of questions I don't have answers to.

00:53:00.580 --> 00:53:05.660
 And I think even in our genuineness of asking questions so often, we say things that are

00:53:05.660 --> 00:53:10.020
 hurtful and it's not intended, but you need a safe space to be able to process those things.

00:53:10.460 --> 00:53:14.540
 You need a safe space to be able to ask the hard questions, to get to a better place of

00:53:14.540 --> 00:53:15.080
 understanding.

00:53:15.520 --> 00:53:19.640
 And I really think that that does come from a hot, a posture of humility.

00:53:19.640 --> 00:53:22.960
 And of course we see Christ exemplify that so beautifully.

00:53:22.960 --> 00:53:28.520
 I think a posture of humility to learn and grow, um, together is, is super important.

00:53:28.520 --> 00:53:30.960
 And so what does it look like to start just loving your neighbor?

00:53:31.780 --> 00:53:32.180
 Really?

00:53:32.580 --> 00:53:33.720
 That doesn't look like you.

00:53:34.360 --> 00:53:38.400
 Um, and not, they're not a project and we'll go back to the old school, you know, evangelism

00:53:38.400 --> 00:53:38.580
 tool.

00:53:38.620 --> 00:53:39.440
 They're not a project.

00:53:39.560 --> 00:53:40.460
 They're a person, right?

00:53:40.540 --> 00:53:49.440
 But for real, for real, build genuine relationship, be open and, um, and don't be scared of that.

00:53:49.900 --> 00:53:51.220
 Our God is powerful.

00:53:51.880 --> 00:53:52.860
 He's a guarder.

00:53:52.920 --> 00:53:53.780
 He's a discerner.

00:53:53.880 --> 00:53:54.700
 He's a protector.

00:53:55.000 --> 00:54:00.560
 So as we look at some things that have been driven by fear for so long, and some of them

00:54:00.560 --> 00:54:05.360
 rightfully so in spaces, I get there's, there's, there's context for the fears.

00:54:05.880 --> 00:54:09.200
 Um, let's trust our God to be, to be bigger in those spaces.

00:54:09.420 --> 00:54:16.000
 If he has defined this from the beginning, that this was his intent, he, he plans to see

00:54:16.000 --> 00:54:16.620
 it to fruition.

00:54:17.280 --> 00:54:23.560
 And we, as his body are literally his physical body living out his kingdom come here and now.

00:54:24.040 --> 00:54:29.600
 So we're called to that, go and make disciples of all people, of all nations.

00:54:29.980 --> 00:54:32.260
 So he's calling us to love our neighbor.

00:54:33.080 --> 00:54:35.680
 And so you go back to the good Samaritan, who's our neighbor.

00:54:37.680 --> 00:54:40.000
 It was intentional that he told that story that way.

00:54:40.740 --> 00:54:41.840
 Yeah, that's, that's beautiful.

00:54:42.600 --> 00:54:45.880
 Uh, this has been a great conversation.

00:54:46.320 --> 00:54:49.560
 Uh, you know, it, it's so, we, we try to talk technology.

00:54:49.560 --> 00:54:52.080
 We try to talk, it always comes back to discipleship.

00:54:52.160 --> 00:54:53.680
 We try to talk multicultural.

00:54:53.960 --> 00:54:58.340
 It, it, it always, you know, comes back to that, that relationship piece.

00:54:58.800 --> 00:55:02.540
 Um, and, and, and whether it's physical or whether it's digital, I can quote stats.

00:55:02.600 --> 00:55:05.900
 I don't need to quote stats, but it all, and if, if we're going to do ministry in the future,

00:55:05.900 --> 00:55:11.200
 it all comes down to that relationship of an individual to, to an individual and how, if

00:55:11.200 --> 00:55:14.700
 we're going to, if we're really going to change the church, if we're really going to change our

00:55:14.700 --> 00:55:19.320
 cultures, um, it comes down to that, that relational piece.

00:55:19.640 --> 00:55:25.180
 Well, I tell you what, I, I want to put a pin, I don't have time to, to, to really dig into

00:55:25.180 --> 00:55:27.080
 this, but gospel centered soul care.

00:55:27.340 --> 00:55:28.640
 Uh, I'm going to come back to that.

00:55:28.780 --> 00:55:30.060
 You're going to get a call at some point.

00:55:30.120 --> 00:55:33.180
 I totally want to explore that in a, in a deeper level.

00:55:33.420 --> 00:55:36.000
 Uh, but this series has been a solid conversation.

00:55:36.280 --> 00:55:38.860
 I, I know that you guys are, it's a Derwin's book.

00:55:38.940 --> 00:55:43.440
 We'll put links to that in the show notes, um, for the round table, uh, link to that as

00:55:43.440 --> 00:55:44.480
 well for, for future.

00:55:44.680 --> 00:55:48.760
 And, and there's, there's resources as well, maybe from the most recent one that was in

00:55:48.760 --> 00:55:49.520
 April.

00:55:49.520 --> 00:55:53.340
 And so they, what, what's the website they can go to and maybe to download some of these

00:55:53.340 --> 00:55:53.880
 resources?

00:55:54.280 --> 00:55:55.360
 DerwinLGreg.com.

00:55:55.500 --> 00:55:59.320
 We'll have those things posted up on there as an opportunity for you to purchase like a small

00:55:59.320 --> 00:56:02.400
 package of, of majority of the content from that.

00:56:02.480 --> 00:56:03.340
 And then we'll do that.

00:56:03.480 --> 00:56:05.120
 Like we do the round table twice a year.

00:56:05.120 --> 00:56:06.600
 And so we'll have it again in November.

00:56:07.040 --> 00:56:11.960
 Um, but then we've also packaged some resources in that as well, just to show you some reading

00:56:11.960 --> 00:56:16.300
 resources that kind of, you know, just give you some clarity of multi-ethnic church.

00:56:16.440 --> 00:56:21.660
 Also, you know, racial recognitions, pieces of things that we can really grow and learn to

00:56:21.660 --> 00:56:25.160
 understand, um, historically and things like that.

00:56:25.160 --> 00:56:29.000
 Um, from the history of the church to just the history of, of, excuse me,

00:56:29.000 --> 00:56:29.560
 civilization.

00:56:29.880 --> 00:56:32.660
 So, um, those will be some pieces that'll come along with that too.

00:56:33.340 --> 00:56:33.600
 Awesome.

00:56:33.780 --> 00:56:34.100
 Love it.

00:56:34.600 --> 00:56:38.040
 Um, so check out DerwinLGrey.com for those.

00:56:38.120 --> 00:56:41.860
 We'll put the link in the show notes and, and include all of that.

00:56:42.080 --> 00:56:43.940
 So Curtis, man, thank you for this.

00:56:44.020 --> 00:56:50.660
 This has been a, um, uh, a heartfelt conversation, uh, hopefully bringing some awareness for, for

00:56:50.660 --> 00:56:52.260
 celebrating the differences.

00:56:52.260 --> 00:56:59.760
 Like I, I just, it's, it's not enough to be mono culture with just multicultural tenders.

00:56:59.760 --> 00:57:02.880
 Let's celebrate and, and push those forward.

00:57:02.880 --> 00:57:05.160
 Let's set our preferences aside.

00:57:05.320 --> 00:57:07.620
 That's, that's a couple of beautiful lines right there.

00:57:07.980 --> 00:57:11.080
 Um, maybe just as we're landing the plane here, uh, any closing thoughts?

00:57:11.740 --> 00:57:14.040
 No, I, I really do appreciate the opportunity.

00:57:14.380 --> 00:57:19.000
 Um, as you can tell, I'm passionate about this and I can rattle a lot of things off.

00:57:19.080 --> 00:57:21.900
 We've spent a lot of time really being poured into, and I love it.

00:57:22.320 --> 00:57:24.120
 Our team spends time and I'll give you an example.

00:57:24.180 --> 00:57:28.100
 We do every Tuesday's transformation time and it's our staff spending time.

00:57:28.100 --> 00:57:33.840
 And so we take time as a staff to talk through some of the things that, that you hear in the

00:57:33.840 --> 00:57:38.160
 world, but how are we making sure that it's not just the spirit of the day, but literally

00:57:38.160 --> 00:57:40.940
 we are seeing it through the lens of the gospel.

00:57:41.720 --> 00:57:46.420
 And, um, and so I think that's another great opportunity as you're looking at church staffs

00:57:46.420 --> 00:57:51.120
 and thinking, how do we address these things and address them well, um, spend some time,

00:57:51.180 --> 00:57:55.600
 be willing to have those, those more difficult conversations and spaces because they're needed.

00:57:55.880 --> 00:58:00.140
 Um, somebody is longing for them and there's a lot of people longing for them, a safe space

00:58:00.140 --> 00:58:01.480
 to be able to talk through those things.

00:58:01.780 --> 00:58:06.780
 But, um, if, if I was gonna, if I was gonna land on anything, this is what I really thought

00:58:06.780 --> 00:58:09.580
 about is I knew we were going to have the opportunity to talk about this.

00:58:10.260 --> 00:58:16.400
 Um, you know, we follow Jesus because we realized that he first loved us and, and we

00:58:16.400 --> 00:58:17.480
 love him in return.

00:58:17.800 --> 00:58:23.760
 And so as I'll go, I'll reference John 17 again, and just thinking about this is Jesus's

00:58:23.760 --> 00:58:24.220
 prayer.

00:58:24.780 --> 00:58:27.840
 He is literally praying this out loud for you and me.

00:58:28.380 --> 00:58:33.380
 And he said, I've given them glory that you have given me so that they may be one as we

00:58:33.380 --> 00:58:33.840
 are one.

00:58:34.080 --> 00:58:40.160
 I am in them and you are in the, in me so that they may be, may be completely one that the

00:58:40.160 --> 00:58:45.980
 world may know you have sent me and have loved them as you have loved me.

00:58:46.380 --> 00:58:53.320
 I know that the heart of every church, the desires that they, that world would know that

00:58:53.320 --> 00:58:56.440
 Jesus came and was sent by God, the father.

00:58:56.980 --> 00:59:05.500
 And he's speaking very specifically saying it's going to be our unity in him identifying as

00:59:05.500 --> 00:59:05.960
 his.

00:59:07.000 --> 00:59:12.900
 And so, um, so I think that's something that we can look at and how amazing that we get

00:59:12.900 --> 00:59:15.380
 the opportunity to be the answer to Jesus's prayer.

00:59:15.920 --> 00:59:16.980
 It's pretty incredible.

00:59:17.640 --> 00:59:23.380
 Yeah, I'm not even sure how to like add or if I even need to add any, anything to that.

00:59:23.460 --> 00:59:27.040
 Let's, let's, let's let that be our prayer and our challenge moving forward.

00:59:27.380 --> 00:59:31.020
 Um, Hey, Curtis, thank you very much for jumping on this.

00:59:31.580 --> 00:59:33.060
 Um, check out the show notes.

00:59:33.120 --> 00:59:35.580
 There'll be plenty of resources there to help towards that.

00:59:35.600 --> 00:59:38.420
 But even that seems like a cheap commercial at this point.

00:59:38.420 --> 00:59:43.720
 So I'm just going to wrap, uh, for, for, for Curtis, uh, uh, this is Jeff with the church

00:59:43.720 --> 00:59:45.500
 digital and stated church planning.

00:59:45.860 --> 00:59:49.600
 Thanks for joining us on this episode and we'll see you next time here at the pod.

00:59:49.720 --> 00:59:50.220
 You have a good day.