WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:04.820 Welcome to the Church Digital Podcast. My name is Jeff Reed, and I'm excited about today's episode 00:00:04.820 --> 00:00:09.380 because I'm featuring someone that's more aggressive in technology than I am myself. 00:00:09.660 --> 00:00:14.140 It's rare when we find these people. I've been accused of being cutting-edge, even bleeding-edge 00:00:14.140 --> 00:00:20.540 technology, and this person here has gone whole hog, and I am excited to have this conversation 00:00:20.540 --> 00:00:28.680 with him. DJ Soto of VR Church. He literally plants a church in virtual reality. Not a physical 00:00:28.680 --> 00:00:36.020 church, but a virtual church in virtual reality. He's been featured in Wired Magazine, BBC, as well 00:00:36.020 --> 00:00:42.280 as recently on Comedy Central. They did a shtick on him because he was baptizing people virtually, 00:00:42.360 --> 00:00:49.820 actually doing the ordinances in VR, and lives are being changed in VR, and DJ's got these stories 00:00:49.820 --> 00:00:54.240 that he's sharing and wanting to talk about. And so here's just a little sneak peek of some of the 00:00:54.240 --> 00:00:59.160 stuff that I learned today. Here's what I found out. Number one, VR baptisms count. So you can go and 00:00:59.160 --> 00:01:05.040 write that down wherever you are in your podcast driving. Number one, VR baptisms count. Number two, 00:01:05.680 --> 00:01:10.720 physical church has a different set of rules than church online. We all know that, online church 00:01:10.720 --> 00:01:16.300 listeners, you got that. Here's what I didn't know. VR church has a different set of rules than digital 00:01:16.300 --> 00:01:21.840 church, church online, than doing the physical. Like, it's just, it's this whole other deal, 00:01:21.840 --> 00:01:25.960 and I loved unpacking this. And I learned the third thing, but you know what, you're going to have to 00:01:25.960 --> 00:01:30.420 listen to the podcast because I'm not even going to get into it here in this intro. So let me get out 00:01:30.420 --> 00:01:37.000 of the way and join in as DJ Soto, Rady Armis from Christ Fellowship Miami, of course, and myself, 00:01:37.400 --> 00:01:43.880 sit down and have a conversation about the theology and the community centered around virtual reality. 00:01:43.880 --> 00:01:51.280 Here you go. We met at Church IT Conference, I guess it was about a year ago up in Washington, D.C. 00:01:51.740 --> 00:02:00.900 And I was really just encouraged by the breakout session that you led through there and how you 00:02:00.900 --> 00:02:06.300 were showing the community and a lot of that. So anyway, that's just really what we wanted to get 00:02:06.300 --> 00:02:13.740 into and flesh out. And so Ray and I'll just be dialoguing kind of with you and we'll see where 00:02:13.740 --> 00:02:18.660 we get to. So yeah, sounds good. Is that okay? Is that good? Yeah. And Ray, where are you from? 00:02:19.040 --> 00:02:23.940 Miami, Florida, like Jeff, I'm here. I'm the church online pastor at Christ Fellowship Miami. 00:02:25.300 --> 00:02:31.720 That's what I do. Just love, got a great love for tech, for tech community, and just how God's 00:02:31.720 --> 00:02:35.100 bringing folks together through these different avenues. I've actually been following some of the 00:02:35.100 --> 00:02:39.040 stuff that you've been doing. So I'm really excited to just hear from, hear straight from the horse's 00:02:39.040 --> 00:02:44.040 mouth as far as like how God's been using your stuff. And, and I just think it's amazing. So. 00:02:44.380 --> 00:02:50.600 And then just out of curiosity, so Christ Church, do they adopt the idea that an attendee can be 00:02:50.600 --> 00:02:54.740 an online attendee or? They still struggle through that. So just being completely honest with like 00:02:54.740 --> 00:02:58.140 they still struggle through that. Jeff will tell you because Jeff helped launch like what we have 00:02:58.140 --> 00:03:03.940 here as far as church online. And it's, it's a hard struggle here because even our, like our senior 00:03:03.940 --> 00:03:08.580 pastor is so not tech oriented, you know, and he'll be the first to tell you, you know, 00:03:08.580 --> 00:03:12.940 he's like basically shut off almost all tech functions off of his iPhone. Like he's got an 00:03:12.940 --> 00:03:18.860 iPhone, but you know, even things like MMS don't even go through because he shut them all 00:03:18.860 --> 00:03:22.540 down. And so these are still things that, that he struggles through. 00:03:22.660 --> 00:03:26.480 Yeah. And this is not, I mean, I don't know your pastor, so this is not a criticism towards 00:03:26.480 --> 00:03:32.760 him at all. What I find is like, you know, senior leadership is, has been educated in like a seminary 00:03:32.760 --> 00:03:38.640 system that, you know, was pre-digital. And so it'd be interesting to see what happens with the 00:03:38.640 --> 00:03:42.380 graduates as, as of late, you know, I haven't really kept up with seminaries and their curriculum and, 00:03:42.380 --> 00:03:47.840 and how they're approaching online church, but ministry. But so, yeah, I think there's, yeah, 00:03:47.840 --> 00:03:51.160 like you said, it's generational. I think it's educational. That construct wasn't even 00:03:51.160 --> 00:03:56.580 part of the conversation. So they'd be there, had to, you know, grown into it, adapt into it. 00:03:57.060 --> 00:04:01.580 Right. I think some have, many haven't. And so you see the expressions that, so I think it's hard 00:04:01.580 --> 00:04:07.740 for them, especially the ones that want to get into online ministry. They want to, but there's like, 00:04:07.960 --> 00:04:12.940 you know, theological and ecclesiological, I don't know, I was going to say strongholds, 00:04:12.980 --> 00:04:16.660 but just like, you know, from seminary, that's tough to, tough to shake. 00:04:17.300 --> 00:04:20.760 You know, DK, a lot of them are still struggling through on that level. They're still struggling 00:04:20.760 --> 00:04:26.200 through multi-site. So they're like two generations behind in regards to struggling through what's 00:04:26.200 --> 00:04:31.360 really, what's a church and what's not a church. They're still struggling through, well, is a campus 00:04:31.360 --> 00:04:36.840 like part of a church? Is it a separate church? But when I hear like, like certain folks struggle 00:04:36.840 --> 00:04:42.760 through whether or not a campus is a church, you know, that, that's where I'm like, oh no, then, 00:04:42.920 --> 00:04:46.920 then you're not even there to discuss online community. You're still struggling on somebody showing 00:04:46.920 --> 00:04:51.600 up in person, but the guy on stage who never really even interacts with people in a one-on-one, 00:04:51.860 --> 00:04:55.660 whether that's like church community coming together, then you're never really going to buy into the 00:04:55.660 --> 00:04:56.800 real community that's happening here. 00:04:57.520 --> 00:05:05.340 Eric Geiger, Mariner's Church, I think it was like episode 11 and nine or 10. And he really delved into like 00:05:05.340 --> 00:05:11.520 the theological aspects. We came on, thought we were talking about Omni Church. And instead he just 00:05:11.520 --> 00:05:15.840 went theological, defining ecclesia. And it was a really good conversation. 00:05:15.840 --> 00:05:21.720 Honestly, from Eric Geiger, who traditionally, you know, struggles with some of the technological aspects 00:05:21.720 --> 00:05:30.120 and in context, it was a really heartfelt conversation wrestling with us. So like, and here in DJ Soto, 00:05:30.240 --> 00:05:38.800 obviously you're much more on the liberal side of defining what technology, how communities defined us. 00:05:39.220 --> 00:05:46.040 Like, how do you define church? How do you define community? What does that look like in the VR space? 00:05:46.780 --> 00:05:52.480 Yeah. So I think, you know, there's like the broad view of it for me has been, has been a journey. So I 00:05:52.480 --> 00:05:57.280 might, let me give you a long answer here. The journey for me was, you know, my wife and I were part of the 00:05:57.280 --> 00:06:04.160 ministry and we left that denomination because we felt like God wanting us to seek something new 00:06:04.160 --> 00:06:09.380 spiritually. So when we left that denomination, there was kind of a, like a desert period, so to speak, 00:06:09.420 --> 00:06:13.660 where, you know, we weren't going to church. We actually kind of didn't even want to go to church. 00:06:13.720 --> 00:06:19.140 We just had, we're kind of burned out by religion and that type of thing. So what happened for us is 00:06:19.140 --> 00:06:24.680 we started experiencing online church and this is back, I don't know, mid 2005, 2006, somewhere around 00:06:24.680 --> 00:06:30.760 there, where I experienced liquid church. It was like an online church in New Jersey. And I think life 00:06:30.760 --> 00:06:36.720 church and I started experiencing that spiritual community online, the worship, the music, the chat, 00:06:36.720 --> 00:06:42.260 and looking back, those are memorable moments. I still have those, that memory imprinted in my mind, 00:06:42.260 --> 00:06:49.840 that experience in that 2d environment. And so I think 2019, you know, you're, you know, we, 00:06:49.960 --> 00:06:55.640 I'm the lead pastor of a church in virtual reality. For me, that conversation about, is this 00:06:55.640 --> 00:07:00.960 the quote unquote valid happened like 10 years ago, you know, 10 to 12 years ago when experiencing 00:07:00.960 --> 00:07:07.420 those online churches. I think in 2010 ish, the church that I was a part of, I helped them launch 00:07:07.420 --> 00:07:12.020 a streaming or online, they wouldn't call it an online campus. I think they struggled with that, but 00:07:12.020 --> 00:07:20.020 it was, you know, you know, video player, live feed, chat interface. And I saw the ministry happened 00:07:20.020 --> 00:07:25.420 there as well. So I think for me, it was, it was like a long time ago where it just came to the 00:07:25.420 --> 00:07:30.740 conclusion very quickly, seeing the stories, seeing the life change of me, like changing, like me 00:07:30.740 --> 00:07:39.020 personally through online ministry. And really was just very, just came to the very good conclusion 00:07:39.020 --> 00:07:44.940 that online ministry is for me. And, and that just naturally led into VR. So there wasn't, maybe there 00:07:44.940 --> 00:07:50.640 was a little bit, but not much where, when VR came that I'd had to question whether this was 00:07:50.640 --> 00:07:56.440 an experience to be had or a church experience. I just, I just kind of just dove right into it. I 00:07:56.440 --> 00:08:03.080 think I'd settled all those ecclesiological and theological things years before. And that was a 00:08:03.080 --> 00:08:09.080 long kind of bird's eye view. I think to the specifically to your question for me is when Jesus 00:08:09.080 --> 00:08:14.640 says where, where two or three are gathered, there I am in the midst, in my name, there I am in the 00:08:14.640 --> 00:08:20.340 midst of them. And if, if that's not church, then I don't know what is. And so when we gather in 00:08:20.340 --> 00:08:25.920 virtual reality, and so when we, in that immersive 360 environment, and there's two or three of us, 00:08:25.920 --> 00:08:30.260 and we're there in the name of Jesus, and Jesus is in the midst of us, then we're having church. 00:08:31.120 --> 00:08:35.160 And then, because I don't, you know, I think many people, I think, you know, I don't know you guys, 00:08:35.200 --> 00:08:39.620 but I would assume you would agree church is not a one hour event on a Sunday morning. I think church, 00:08:39.760 --> 00:08:45.520 the church is the body. It's the ecclesia, it's, it's living that out. And it's interesting because 00:08:45.520 --> 00:08:51.000 people do, you know, if you miss church on Sunday morning, well, you didn't go to church. That's kind 00:08:51.000 --> 00:08:55.800 of the, the attitude or like maybe some of the baggage from previous years, but that's not the case 00:08:55.800 --> 00:09:03.000 anymore, at least, you know, from as far as I'm concerned. And so yeah, and we've experienced God 00:09:03.000 --> 00:09:10.020 in that environment. We just sense God's spirit in, in, in VR. And I know that's confusing for many 00:09:10.020 --> 00:09:14.380 people. I think that if they're struggling with digital, like online streaming, online campuses, 00:09:14.380 --> 00:09:18.120 they're going to struggle with VR. But what I think is going to happen is you're having this, 00:09:18.240 --> 00:09:23.560 you had the physical experience and then I don't put this down in value, but just meaning an 00:09:23.560 --> 00:09:30.240 interaction. You, you had online church or online platforms, not in value, but just you're taking 00:09:30.240 --> 00:09:35.580 away the physical, right? And this is more chat interfaces and maybe Skype life groups, but now 00:09:35.580 --> 00:09:41.420 you're going to see this curve go back up with VR because now we're in these 360, 360 immersive 00:09:41.420 --> 00:09:46.860 environments where we're talking with each other, we're giving each other high fives, giving each 00:09:46.860 --> 00:09:53.220 other hugs in church again. So there's this strange new technology that's like coming back up as far 00:09:53.220 --> 00:10:00.280 as digital interactions. And that is, we've never seen before in history. So that's kind of the long, 00:10:00.560 --> 00:10:05.360 medium and short version of it. Yeah, there was a lot right there. That, that, that was beautiful. 00:10:05.360 --> 00:10:10.760 Thank you. But let's, let's, let's back up and kind of just fine tune in some things. So, cause you 00:10:10.760 --> 00:10:16.200 made the joke about the one hour on Sunday and, and that's, that's the thing that, that, you know, 00:10:16.200 --> 00:10:21.020 Ray and I, we just, we talk a lot about on, in the show where we're, we're spending all our attention, 00:10:21.020 --> 00:10:25.540 all our time, all our energies towards that one hour on Sunday. And if you miss it, then, then, 00:10:25.540 --> 00:10:32.300 then you're a heathen. Whereas Christ came for us 168 hours a week, more of a discipleship ideology 00:10:32.300 --> 00:10:38.320 where it's more than just, you know, Sunday, 9am. Like what, what does that look like virtually now? 00:10:38.400 --> 00:10:44.120 Like, and I don't, I'm going to confess, like I do, I want to get the Oculus Quest. I've been waiting 00:10:44.120 --> 00:10:50.700 for that specific headset to come out. So my only point of reference in VR is like Stephen King's 00:10:50.700 --> 00:10:59.960 lawnmower man. That's all I got. Okay. Like, I'm just, yeah. So, but in context of, so what is, 00:11:00.060 --> 00:11:04.020 so the one hour Sunday, you know, I see the video clips. I've, you know, I've, I've read the article, 00:11:04.080 --> 00:11:08.400 I've seen the photos. Most recently, you know, Wired Magazine, you had the thing. Most recently, 00:11:08.400 --> 00:11:13.920 I think it was Christianity Today was talking about the baptism of, of a person in VR and, 00:11:13.920 --> 00:11:18.240 and a lot of that, which what I've seen, but, and, and we can get there too, but like in a 00:11:18.240 --> 00:11:24.000 discipleship perspective, like some of that, the, the one-on-one or the, the one-on-four, 00:11:24.120 --> 00:11:29.620 the smaller groups, biblical community, like what does that model look like in, in context of VR? 00:11:30.280 --> 00:11:34.020 Well, just to back up a little bit, it's kind of funny. You're talking about Wired and some other 00:11:34.020 --> 00:11:38.260 things, like most recently talking about baptism was, was Comedy Central with Noah 00:11:38.260 --> 00:11:42.660 Trevor, or Trevor Noah, is that his name? And that was pretty funny. They, they, I mean, 00:11:42.660 --> 00:11:46.360 obviously they made fun of us quite a bit, but my favorite part was when they called me Pastor 00:11:46.360 --> 00:11:51.600 Morpheus. I was like, okay, I'll take that. That's a fun, fun little statement there. But back when we 00:11:51.600 --> 00:11:55.160 did baptisms years ago, I'm sure we'll touch on that, but there was a lot of, not a lot, but a 00:11:55.160 --> 00:11:58.060 little bit of press about that. And I didn't think much about it. I was like, when we did it, 00:11:58.100 --> 00:12:03.900 it wasn't on our radar that it would cause a little stir. And obviously it did. And then we did 00:12:03.900 --> 00:12:08.240 another one recently, and for some reason it blew up even more. And so, you know, 00:12:08.260 --> 00:12:15.880 things like being on BBC and just calls from all over the world to talk about what, because it's 00:12:15.880 --> 00:12:23.220 another surge of people discovering virtual reality church. And so I think for us, if I can back up, 00:12:23.260 --> 00:12:27.080 because I know you're talking about like discipleship and community. I just want, let me just talk about 00:12:27.080 --> 00:12:34.460 the hardware and the tech, because I think people get the general idea. Oh, thanks. West. You can put this 00:12:34.460 --> 00:12:40.720 right here. People get the general idea of what VR is, but you know, if you put on this headset and 00:12:40.720 --> 00:12:45.220 this is the Oculus Rift S, this is the second, I don't know if it's second generation. It's like 00:12:45.220 --> 00:12:53.140 maybe a 1.5 of their original Oculus. And when you put this on and it really overlays a new reality 00:12:53.140 --> 00:12:58.720 over your eyes, which is hard to imagine. It'd be like if you put contact lenses in and it completely 00:12:58.720 --> 00:13:04.360 changed everything that you saw. And so when I look up and down and left and right, I see this whole, 00:13:04.460 --> 00:13:09.340 immersive environment around me. And, and, and perhaps your audience, you know, doesn't need 00:13:09.340 --> 00:13:15.040 this, but I found recently that people still don't know what VR is. I was talking with a bunch of like 00:13:15.040 --> 00:13:20.380 50 or 60 pastors from all, maybe it was from the Pacific Northwest. And some guy raised his hand, 00:13:20.400 --> 00:13:25.520 he's like, is this, is VR like a Zoom call? And I was like, no, it's not. Let me start over. Right. 00:13:25.720 --> 00:13:30.280 I didn't say it that way, but the point is, I don't think many people realize what, you know, 00:13:30.280 --> 00:13:35.880 that you put this on and there's no shortage of like YouTube videos of people reacting to it, 00:13:36.140 --> 00:13:42.440 like jumping back, falling over. It does something that a brain that I had a friend over here who put 00:13:42.440 --> 00:13:48.300 it on and a dinosaur was coming at her and she like freaked out. Like, you know, it's fake, 00:13:48.740 --> 00:13:54.580 but virtual reality is so immersive that it tricks the brain into thinking that it's real. And so what 00:13:54.580 --> 00:13:58.720 you're going to hear a lot about VR is it feels real. And that's why people are reacting and 00:13:58.720 --> 00:14:05.240 freaking out. So you put that on, you become an avatar. These versions of the Oculus have touch 00:14:05.240 --> 00:14:09.840 controllers. So when I raise my hand, and this is important to talk about like discipleship and 00:14:09.840 --> 00:14:14.700 immersion, like when I raise my hand in the real world, in the real world, or we don't say real world, 00:14:14.700 --> 00:14:18.060 we say the physical world, because what we experience in VR is actually very real. 00:14:18.960 --> 00:14:23.780 When I raise my hands in the physical world, my avatar does the same thing as digital hands 00:14:23.780 --> 00:14:28.380 will raise up and we can wave, give each other high fives when I'm preaching on a Sunday. Like 00:14:28.380 --> 00:14:32.100 they'll see all my gestures and they'll see my head turned. It's, it's, it's pretty crazy. This 00:14:32.100 --> 00:14:40.200 is the Rift S. It connects to a computer, but this guy is the Oculus Quest. And for VR enthusiasts, 00:14:40.200 --> 00:14:46.500 we believe this is like the first mainstream VR device that everyone should get. This is like, 00:14:46.800 --> 00:14:49.900 you know, like the first couple iPhones took a little bit of, you know, kind of work out some 00:14:49.900 --> 00:14:55.540 things and you got a really good functional iPhone. We've VR had a, you know, it was compelling and an 00:14:55.540 --> 00:14:59.860 awesome experience, but it needed a few couple of tweaks. And we think that this is going to be the 00:14:59.860 --> 00:15:05.140 one that really, I don't know, not necessarily say it's going to go mainstream, but it has the 00:15:05.140 --> 00:15:10.360 potential for it. And it's definitely is so user-friendly to be able to use this. And it's 00:15:10.360 --> 00:15:17.440 just as good as, as the Rift S that I showed you there. But so think about that. You're, you're 00:15:17.440 --> 00:15:22.040 overlaying a new reality. You're creating avatars that are very lifelike. And these avatars are getting 00:15:22.040 --> 00:15:26.780 more sophisticated. Like if you see some of my early images of VR church, it looked like, like 00:15:26.780 --> 00:15:31.500 Nintendo, uh, what is it? The Wiis, those, those Mies characters, you know what I'm talking about? 00:15:32.020 --> 00:15:35.780 Um, so it kind of looked like that and things are evolving where some of the latest videos I posted 00:15:35.780 --> 00:15:42.040 is, is hype. I wouldn't say hyper-realistic, but very, uh, realistic skin tones. And at one point, 00:15:42.040 --> 00:15:45.400 I think someone mentioned just a quick glance at the video. She thought it was real. And then, 00:15:45.400 --> 00:15:51.400 you know, the, the brain like analyzed and said, Oh, this is a virtual thing. So it's, it's crazy how 00:15:51.400 --> 00:15:55.640 it's going to be like that where you're going to walk and I'm going to, you know, see Jeff just as 00:15:55.640 --> 00:16:02.140 he is, if that's the avatar he chose to be. Um, and so what that does for us in, in discipleship 00:16:02.140 --> 00:16:08.880 and relationships in VR is that we're able to have, um, interactions. And so, uh, very similar to 00:16:08.880 --> 00:16:13.980 like, if you would have discipleship or a small group in the physical world, uh, we do that in 00:16:13.980 --> 00:16:19.180 virtual reality and it feels real. That's the thing you're going to hear me say, um, over and over 00:16:19.180 --> 00:16:23.960 again. And so when we get together for, we have two small groups right now, uh, one on Tuesday, 00:16:24.040 --> 00:16:28.040 one on Thursday, uh, led by different leaders. And so they'll get, they'll get together eight to 12 00:16:28.040 --> 00:16:32.560 people. Um, and then they'll create an environment. They'll be on the moon. They'll be in a forest. 00:16:33.100 --> 00:16:38.620 That's a whole other world of VR to talk about these experiences that you can have. Um, and yeah, 00:16:38.680 --> 00:16:43.480 they'll like, if you're walking into a house for a small group and, you know, you greet each other, 00:16:43.480 --> 00:16:48.480 you say hello, you, you know, uh, just have a conversation and you group up and talk. That's what's 00:16:48.480 --> 00:16:53.760 happening in virtual reality. There really isn't much difference and the immersion makes it feel 00:16:53.760 --> 00:16:58.840 real. And I think it's, um, yeah, it's good. It's a, it's a disruptive technology for sure. And 00:16:58.840 --> 00:17:03.160 there's a lot to say about that, but that's like the fundamental element, fundamental elements of 00:17:03.160 --> 00:17:08.880 like how we do small groups. Um, sometimes they're impromptu prayer, um, you know, sessions or prayer 00:17:08.880 --> 00:17:16.240 meetings. Um, one thing that we get criticism for people say, well, won't people be fake because 00:17:16.240 --> 00:17:21.040 they're, they're an avatar. They're, they're going to change their persona. And we actually found it to 00:17:21.040 --> 00:17:26.520 be the complete opposite because of the avatar. There was a sense of anonymity and with that 00:17:26.520 --> 00:17:32.720 anonymity came deep authenticity. So it's, it's nothing like I've ever seen before, um, in ministry. 00:17:32.720 --> 00:17:37.440 I've been in ministry for over 20 years in some form or fashion, big, small churches and the, 00:17:37.440 --> 00:17:43.420 the barrier for, um, whether, whether it's intimidation or, or fear of being judged, 00:17:43.420 --> 00:17:48.500 that barrier just melts away so quickly in VR and people, I mean, I can tell you story after story. 00:17:48.980 --> 00:17:53.100 My friend was watching me preach and he said, uh, some kids started talking to me about suicide 00:17:53.100 --> 00:17:57.240 and I was like, he just met you. How, how is he talking to me about that? And I was like, 00:17:57.480 --> 00:18:02.220 yeah, you take that one little story and multiply it times a hundred and, um, something about the 00:18:02.220 --> 00:18:07.500 nature of the platform, uh, the, the anonymity, the avatar just leads to authenticity. So 00:18:07.500 --> 00:18:12.480 discipleship, um, we can, there's very little pretense. So, you know, you know, sometimes 00:18:12.480 --> 00:18:17.040 discipleship is this trusting the person developing that relationship, you know, that can be an 00:18:17.040 --> 00:18:22.360 intimidating thing. And that does still exist. It's not that VR eliminates that, but it, for some 00:18:22.360 --> 00:18:27.600 reason it melts that away very quickly. So when it comes to discipleships, relationships, we're 00:18:27.600 --> 00:18:34.240 connecting, we're talking, um, and people are less afraid to just get to the heart of the matter, 00:18:34.240 --> 00:18:39.840 the heart of the issues. And, and that's really kind of, I don't know, uh, magnified discipleship 00:18:39.840 --> 00:18:45.960 for us. And it's, it's a, it's very beautiful actually to experience. So the anonymity almost 00:18:45.960 --> 00:18:50.400 seems like, uh, because of the avatar to me, like the first thing that comes to mind is almost like 00:18:50.400 --> 00:18:53.800 the experience that somebody gets when they walk into a Roman Catholic church and they sit in a 00:18:53.800 --> 00:18:58.100 confessional and they've got a barrier between them. Right. I mean, does it seem like that where 00:18:58.100 --> 00:19:02.500 it's like, because a barrier exists, you have the ability to be more open with another. 00:19:02.500 --> 00:19:07.700 Yeah. I never thought of it about in that way, but that's a perfect example. I think that, um, 00:19:07.700 --> 00:19:11.720 there's a sense of protection, you know, they're not judging me for the way I look or who I am or 00:19:11.720 --> 00:19:17.300 who they know me to be and, you know, in my town or whatever. Um, they, I think that's a great way 00:19:17.300 --> 00:19:22.140 to put it. They just feel comfortable because there is a little bit of protection there and people want 00:19:22.140 --> 00:19:26.840 to talk about what's going on. You know, we've, we kind of hide those things. And, and I joke around 00:19:26.840 --> 00:19:30.420 with some of my pastor friends, um, you know, I kind of like poked back a little bit and I said, 00:19:30.500 --> 00:19:35.100 well, I think people are coming to your church as an avatar. They're, they're already projecting this 00:19:35.100 --> 00:19:43.820 best self into your environment. Um, and so I poked back a little bit just for fun, but, uh, it kind of 00:19:43.820 --> 00:19:48.940 makes a point that, um, we're all, um, projecting something. And so, um, 00:19:49.480 --> 00:19:56.980 The, the people, the, the people who, who, who attend, who come, um, is, is it, you know, is it the 00:19:56.980 --> 00:20:03.660 once or twice and they're gone? Is it, uh, like leaders? Is, is there long-term development where 00:20:03.660 --> 00:20:08.500 people, people are regularly engaging? Like, uh, you know, I started to use the word avatar, but 00:20:08.500 --> 00:20:13.960 like, what's the model for, for somebody that, that's, that, that attends, like what, what types 00:20:13.960 --> 00:20:21.360 of profiles do you see coming out? Um, so one broad idea is that it's one big experiment. We 00:20:21.360 --> 00:20:28.060 haven't like established models or, or, uh, concepts that have, you know, had been solidified. It's, 00:20:28.120 --> 00:20:32.260 it's even constantly changing. Even recently, you know, we talked about, you know, uh, the comedy 00:20:32.260 --> 00:20:37.400 central and the, uh, BBC stuff like that. Uh, let, let me give you a physical church example. What's 00:20:37.400 --> 00:20:41.440 happened to VR church in the past couple of weeks would be like, let's say you're a hundred person 00:20:41.440 --> 00:20:46.240 church, um, one week and then the next week you're a three, four hundred person church. So that's 00:20:46.240 --> 00:20:52.320 basically what's literally happening right now in a real time. Um, and so I, I think we're just trying 00:20:52.320 --> 00:20:57.640 to figure it all out. Uh, we thought we had to figure out like, oh, here's our large gatherings on 00:20:57.640 --> 00:21:03.980 Sunday and now we have small groups. We're good. And then 300 more people come in. Um, and so now we're 00:21:03.980 --> 00:21:08.380 like, we're just like scrambling to think about our systems and our structures about how can we 00:21:08.380 --> 00:21:12.740 shepherd people? Well, how, how can we connect them to discipleship or leadership if they want 00:21:12.740 --> 00:21:16.920 that? So we're in the middle of all that. As a matter of fact, what's happened in the past 10 00:21:16.920 --> 00:21:20.660 days is we're immediately planning two more churches. So we have two church experiences, 00:21:21.400 --> 00:21:27.380 church experiences on Sunday, uh, one for Europeans because of the time zone and one for North America. 00:21:27.380 --> 00:21:33.300 And then the influx of new people has, we said, we have to plant at least two more churches. And so 00:21:33.300 --> 00:21:36.720 that's what we're going to be. We're going to be a, um, you can think of it multi-site. They're all 00:21:36.720 --> 00:21:40.220 going to have their different flavor there and they're in different metaverses. Um, and I don't 00:21:40.220 --> 00:21:45.160 need to try to complicate the conversation, but, um, so in the next three to four weeks here, we'll, 00:21:45.160 --> 00:21:51.240 um, have four church plants in virtual reality. Now, are, are you, you're breaking up because 100 is, 00:21:51.240 --> 00:21:57.460 is like the preferred manageable number. Is that, is that just like you building relationships? Is 00:21:57.460 --> 00:22:04.780 that a software limitation? Like, like what, what drove this immediate change? Um, so, um, let me 00:22:04.780 --> 00:22:10.140 see if I can, um, simplify the idea. It'd be like, it'd be like if we planted a church in New York 00:22:10.140 --> 00:22:15.460 city, right. And then Chicago was like, we don't have a church, bring a church here. And we went to 00:22:15.460 --> 00:22:21.320 Chicago and so there's different metaverses or different virtual reality cities. Um, and so 00:22:21.320 --> 00:22:25.260 we've been in all space VR, which is a great platform. Um, but Pete, there's another one 00:22:25.260 --> 00:22:29.520 called VR chat, um, which is some of my latest videos that have been coming from VR chat with, 00:22:29.520 --> 00:22:33.800 uh, realistic avatars. And there's one called the rec room. So we have these different virtual 00:22:33.800 --> 00:22:38.160 cities and we've only been in this one city. Um, and you know, we always felt like people could 00:22:38.160 --> 00:22:43.040 come, but with the energy that's been coming, people are like, please come plant a church in our 00:22:43.040 --> 00:22:47.360 city. Please come plant a church in the side of the city. So it's not necessarily a technological, 00:22:47.360 --> 00:22:53.520 uh, limitation because we, in theory, can have as many people, um, hosted on our server in 00:22:53.520 --> 00:22:57.220 all space. Uh, we can have a hundred, we can have a thousand, we've got 10,000 theoretically. 00:22:57.220 --> 00:23:02.240 Um, and, and then these other ones are asking us to come. So these other ones are different. 00:23:02.320 --> 00:23:07.780 They're different technologies, different platforms. So our all space VR, uh, experience is going 00:23:07.780 --> 00:23:13.220 to be like a mega church model, a large, you know, you know, music and preaching. The VR chat has 00:23:13.220 --> 00:23:19.380 technical limitations, but we can't have a thousand on a server. Um, so for that one, we're going to 00:23:19.380 --> 00:23:23.940 go a house church model. We're going to start developing into house churches there. So I think 00:23:23.940 --> 00:23:29.860 we're in the middle of trying to figure it all out and we're doing the mega church and the house church 00:23:29.860 --> 00:23:35.380 and it's, it's, um, interesting time. So I think you're catching us at a time where we're like, uh, 00:23:35.380 --> 00:23:42.500 not overwhelmed, but like definitely not, you know, modeled, figured out yet. So, um, maybe, you know, 00:23:42.500 --> 00:23:51.540 maybe next year it'll look a little different. Yeah. So it's good. Very cool. Now how, tell me, 00:23:51.540 --> 00:23:56.420 tell me this. Cause, and I don't, I don't think, I don't think you said this at the conference I met you at, 00:23:56.420 --> 00:24:03.540 like how this come into your head. How, how did you make the jump from, Hey, I'm a pastor to, 00:24:03.780 --> 00:24:07.000 and you talked a little bit about, about church online, but there's still, it's a big jump from 00:24:07.000 --> 00:24:11.120 church online to, Hey, I'm going to leave my business. I'm going to leave my job and I'm going 00:24:11.120 --> 00:24:15.680 to, you know, start planting this, this church where I'm going to preach and I'm going to put on 00:24:15.680 --> 00:24:22.960 these goggles and I'm going to engage with people in VR, like talking about unconventional ministry 00:24:22.960 --> 00:24:28.200 and doing things from a unique perspective when it doesn't necessarily make sense by how the world 00:24:28.200 --> 00:24:33.340 is, is looking like this is a big leap for anybody. How, how did you get to this place? How, 00:24:33.460 --> 00:24:39.460 what were the things that kind of God used in your life to get you to here? Yeah. Um, so I'll give 00:24:39.460 --> 00:24:43.260 you this, like it's a two to three year journey. Let me give you that, like, you know, 60 second 00:24:43.260 --> 00:24:48.080 version, two minute version of it. Um, you know, cause my wife and I were pastors at a mega church 00:24:48.080 --> 00:24:52.640 in Pennsylvania. Um, I was one of the campus pastors before the campus pastor. I did a lot 00:24:52.640 --> 00:24:58.920 of digital initiatives for them, um, with their own app, a native app, um, online. I used their 00:24:58.920 --> 00:25:03.880 online church platform to launch our own online experience. Um, so different things like that 00:25:03.880 --> 00:25:09.320 and everything was great and we loved it. Um, but it was about 2016 where I sensed something 00:25:09.320 --> 00:25:15.640 was wrong inside me. I couldn't identify those little turmoil and working through that discovered 00:25:15.640 --> 00:25:21.420 that God wanted us to go do something new. And we had no idea what new meant. Uh, we thought that 00:25:21.420 --> 00:25:26.760 meant plant physical churches. So that's what we kind of, we sold our stuff and we've got a travel 00:25:26.760 --> 00:25:33.640 trailer and, uh, we did a lot of massive radical tactical shifts in our lives to go into physical 00:25:33.640 --> 00:25:39.240 church plants and went to, uh, um, at arc church planning seminar. And, you know, we're doing all 00:25:39.240 --> 00:25:43.800 that stuff. Um, it was about the same time where virtual reality came out and I experienced VR, 00:25:43.980 --> 00:25:49.300 experienced social VR and social VR was crazy for me at the time because that's like ready player one 00:25:49.300 --> 00:25:55.420 or the matrix. Like you're in these virtual worlds with avatars. And when, uh, one Friday I was in 00:25:55.420 --> 00:25:59.020 there and just hit me, I was like, you know what, let's, let's have a church service in here. This 00:25:59.020 --> 00:26:04.020 would be an amazing experience. So sure enough, that was a Friday on a Sunday. I had my first 00:26:04.020 --> 00:26:12.480 church service in VR, uh, the summer of 2016 and five people came to that event in which for a 00:26:12.480 --> 00:26:16.080 physical church planner, that'd be devastating. If only five people came to your, your launch day. 00:26:16.220 --> 00:26:21.320 But for me, I was so excited. One guy was an atheist from Denmark. Um, he was like, man, 00:26:21.320 --> 00:26:25.860 I don't believe in God, but I'm curious to see what this is all about. And that really led to 00:26:25.860 --> 00:26:31.940 like some of the, or a lot of the media attention we're getting is because many, um, atheists and 00:26:31.940 --> 00:26:38.340 agnostics come to VR church. And, um, that was kind of the beginning of it. And, um, so through, 00:26:38.420 --> 00:26:43.360 through 2016, it was just more of an experiment every other week or so, you know, I'd have the 00:26:43.360 --> 00:26:47.460 church service. Um, you know, not many people had VR. I mean, this was like, you know, three years ago. 00:26:47.460 --> 00:26:51.680 So it's not even like now where it's still a low adoption, but, um, even back then it was, 00:26:51.800 --> 00:26:57.680 it was much less and we were doing services and sometimes people would show up. Sometimes people 00:26:57.680 --> 00:27:02.220 wouldn't. So, but I would do the full service, whether I preach, whether, um, someone was there 00:27:02.220 --> 00:27:07.060 or not. I wanted people to pop in, um, expecting there was a service because VR is like that. People 00:27:07.060 --> 00:27:13.620 just kind of pop it in and pop it out. Um, and it was about 2017 where the light bulb finally came 00:27:13.620 --> 00:27:19.480 on. It wasn't an overnight thing. It was a gradual realization. Uh, we're not church planners in the 00:27:19.480 --> 00:27:24.980 physical world. We're church planners in virtual reality. And that little shift, um, this is really 00:27:24.980 --> 00:27:30.600 what kind of skyrocketed things, the energy in our community, the energy from our experience turned 00:27:30.600 --> 00:27:36.820 into a community, uh, people from different, um, uh, they were Christians from different parts of the 00:27:36.820 --> 00:27:40.660 world would come and they're like, Hey, we want to, we want to volunteer. We want to help. So 00:27:40.660 --> 00:27:44.620 it was kind of like an accidental church plant. I heard a church planner say that one time. 00:27:44.920 --> 00:27:48.820 They didn't think much about it until it happened to us. It was like, Oh, here are leaders and 00:27:48.820 --> 00:27:52.660 here's volunteers and I'm preaching and we're doing music and all right, let's do a small group. And 00:27:52.660 --> 00:27:58.800 then all of a sudden this church like existed and, um, it was a beautiful thing. And we'd just been, 00:27:58.800 --> 00:28:05.040 uh, developing leaders, building the church, launching new churches, um, all of that. So that's kind of 00:28:05.040 --> 00:28:12.260 the, uh, I guess three year, like, you know, uh, bird's eye view of transitioning from, uh, physical 00:28:12.260 --> 00:28:17.680 church plants to virtual reality, which is very, uh, I probably would have to admit to you that was 00:28:17.680 --> 00:28:22.320 kind of like a little mental moment, you know, like, uh, like saying that out loud was kind of like, 00:28:22.380 --> 00:28:27.560 Oh, okay, this is interesting. Um, but, uh, no, we're really excited about it. And my wife and I have 00:28:27.560 --> 00:28:32.420 been amazed about what's been, what's happening in virtual reality and the ministry there. And, 00:28:32.420 --> 00:28:38.200 um, and I feel like we're just scratching the surface. And so, um, yeah, yeah. So it's, 00:28:38.300 --> 00:28:39.240 it's been a lot of fun. 00:28:39.840 --> 00:28:44.460 What percentage of people, uh, agree with you and encourage you and what percentage of people 00:28:44.460 --> 00:28:45.560 look at you like you're crazy? 00:28:46.980 --> 00:28:52.240 Uh, that's, that's like an evolving number. I think, um, yeah, don't read the YouTube or Twitter 00:28:52.240 --> 00:28:57.680 comments for all these like comedy central stuff. Uh, cause that can get pretty, uh, negative. 00:28:58.060 --> 00:29:02.600 Uh, you know, people who know us and love us, you know, they might not understand it, but 00:29:02.600 --> 00:29:07.200 they just believe in, in us, like Carrie and I, and they just believe in our ministry. And 00:29:07.200 --> 00:29:10.200 that, you know, we've, we've done ministry with many of these people for a long time. So 00:29:10.200 --> 00:29:15.080 many of them don't get it, but they love us and support us. So from our circle, so to speak, 00:29:15.080 --> 00:29:18.120 there's a lot of support and a lot of encouragement. We've made a lot of new friends too, 00:29:18.120 --> 00:29:23.160 um, that have really just been, uh, the wind at our backs, but certainly there is an energy 00:29:23.160 --> 00:29:28.440 out there that, uh, really resistant towards the, I mean, forget sacraments, like just the 00:29:28.440 --> 00:29:33.920 idea of an online only church. And we're really not, it's, it's really more of a virtual reality 00:29:33.920 --> 00:29:37.640 church. I think there's a big difference between something that's digital and something that's 00:29:37.640 --> 00:29:42.860 virtual reality. Um, and then not to complicate it, but, um, to go back to the theology of things, 00:29:42.860 --> 00:29:49.220 I think people are trying to take their digital ecclesium and copy and paste it to virtual reality 00:29:49.220 --> 00:29:55.100 and can, um, let's, let's unpack that. Cause that that's interesting. Let's, so you would 00:29:55.100 --> 00:30:02.880 separate, um, a physical church's, uh, expression of, of worship digitally. So broadcasting services 00:30:02.880 --> 00:30:09.320 online, you mentioned the Skype small groups that there's a separate, um, uh, theological grounding 00:30:09.320 --> 00:30:14.460 for VR church. Cool. Let's, let's unpack that. Yeah. Yeah. I think so. Uh, and there's, I guess 00:30:14.460 --> 00:30:19.800 many ways to come around it. And, um, like I think many churches would, would say you couldn't have 00:30:19.800 --> 00:30:25.240 an online only church, like just completely online. Forget virtual reality. Let's say you wanted to use 00:30:25.240 --> 00:30:29.280 the church online platform and you're going to have a church and you're going to have a Facebook group. 00:30:29.320 --> 00:30:35.720 I think it's a brilliant idea, but I can see most churches, um, coming to the, the conclusion 00:30:35.720 --> 00:30:41.640 that that isn't proper, valid function or whatever you want to say, but enter virtual reality with the 00:30:41.640 --> 00:30:46.180 immersiveness of it. And I think that changes the game. I think it's a different beast. And so I've 00:30:46.180 --> 00:30:51.000 had some people say, you know, um, you know, this, this theologian is writing about virtual reality 00:30:51.000 --> 00:30:55.400 and, and with all due respect, but they've never experienced it. Cause I think they're trying to, 00:30:55.400 --> 00:31:00.160 they're trying to take the, the copy and paste approach. And that would make sense on the outside. I, 00:31:00.160 --> 00:31:06.440 I could see why someone would do that. Um, but once you experience it and, uh, experience virtual 00:31:06.440 --> 00:31:12.440 reality one, and then to experience virtual reality church, it's completely different. So I've had 00:31:12.440 --> 00:31:18.240 critics come in, uh, not many, but I remember one guy who was, he was super, uh, you know, truthful. 00:31:18.760 --> 00:31:23.700 And he said, you know, I came in here, I thought this was going to be a joke. And, uh, this is pretty 00:31:23.700 --> 00:31:30.020 amazing is what he said. And so you have people that on, on the outside have serious theological 00:31:30.020 --> 00:31:34.780 reservations. I actually had this pastor, I did a presentation in California and this pastor 00:31:34.780 --> 00:31:39.960 internally was like, Nope. Um, and I, I didn't know that. So I said, Hey man, I'd love to have 00:31:39.960 --> 00:31:44.080 you come to VR church. Come check it out. I had him actually come up on stage with his avatar and, 00:31:44.080 --> 00:31:51.200 and, uh, present his ministry. And afterwards he said, I want to do virtual reality. So like that 00:31:51.200 --> 00:31:57.560 little like, um, knowledge there is so important for us to communicate what our struggle has 00:31:57.560 --> 00:32:01.820 been is that I, we can talk about it. I can show you pictures. I can show you images. I 00:32:01.820 --> 00:32:06.780 can, um, you know, cast vision all day long, but it takes two seconds in virtual reality for 00:32:06.780 --> 00:32:12.240 the, for the brain, uh, the light bulb to come on, uh, for the, uh, the spirit to illuminate 00:32:12.240 --> 00:32:20.120 to the idea that you can have, um, a ministry in VR. And as we do fully online or fully virtual 00:32:20.120 --> 00:32:26.260 reality ministry, Ray, I feel bad. I'm asking a bunch of questions. You got anything on your 00:32:26.260 --> 00:32:31.820 end? Um, let, let me ask that. Let me ask this. Uh, so in, in, in digital church and church 00:32:31.820 --> 00:32:36.740 online, um, and, and Ray may disagree. It's probably one of the top, one of the biggest 00:32:36.740 --> 00:32:41.980 issues we got is, is this idea of consumerism is that church online is all we're creating 00:32:41.980 --> 00:32:46.500 is consumers. We're not creating disciples in the vehicle online ministry to move people 00:32:46.500 --> 00:32:51.640 from a consumer to a disciple. You know, they're not comfortable doing that in context of ecclesia 00:32:51.640 --> 00:32:57.020 and theology and blah, blah, blah. What are the theological issues that, that you run into 00:32:57.020 --> 00:33:01.780 when you talk to people other than they don't understand VR, right? Like theological, practical, 00:33:01.780 --> 00:33:09.060 other than just pure education or is education really it? Like what's the major hurdle you overcome 00:33:09.060 --> 00:33:12.760 on a regular basis talking with people? Well, I, you know, I kind of pushed back a little 00:33:12.760 --> 00:33:17.940 bit in the sense of like, um, you know, I love the churches I visited across America. We've visited 00:33:17.940 --> 00:33:22.500 maybe hundreds. Um, I love the church I was a part of, but I wouldn't necessarily say it was like a 00:33:22.500 --> 00:33:30.000 disciple. Um, you know, that, that one hour event is more just, it's very passive. Um, it's not like 00:33:30.000 --> 00:33:34.320 you're, you're going in there and have, you're expressing your gifts or I, there is aspects to 00:33:34.320 --> 00:33:39.060 volunteering. There is aspects to getting involved, but I think, uh, you know, many churches I've been 00:33:39.060 --> 00:33:44.780 a part of who are doing a great job. There's still this element of assuming that their physical 00:33:44.780 --> 00:33:49.980 construct is doing it well or doing it right. I think you actually need to go back for me personally 00:33:49.980 --> 00:33:55.920 to go look at the physical, how that's functioning. Are you, are you actually making disciples? Not to 00:33:55.920 --> 00:34:01.340 assume you have a building, you have an event, you have small groups. That's great from a like 00:34:01.340 --> 00:34:06.760 constructural point of view, but functionally and organically are, is that even actually happening? 00:34:06.760 --> 00:34:12.240 Um, and then I would argue that when you could take a good hard look, some churches might come 00:34:12.240 --> 00:34:17.600 to the conclusion where we could do a lot better of a job. And so, um, so when I push back a little 00:34:17.600 --> 00:34:21.700 bit to that, it really kind of illuminates to what we're doing in VR. Not that it's perfect, 00:34:21.700 --> 00:34:27.560 but it's not, it's when discipleship that we have, when it's done in person, when it's, 00:34:27.660 --> 00:34:32.700 and it's done in an immersive way. Um, and people kind of experience that it's very beautiful. So 00:34:32.700 --> 00:34:38.540 those interactions are spirit to spirit, uh, person to person. And, um, so yeah, I think just 00:34:38.540 --> 00:34:43.720 kind of, for me, it's challenging. Well, let's not assume that what's happening physically is 00:34:43.720 --> 00:34:48.100 done well. Let's kind of take a look and then let's apply that also into virtual reality. 00:34:49.840 --> 00:34:56.840 That's good. You know, DK, as, as folks kind of dive into this, um, I think what a lot more 00:34:56.840 --> 00:35:01.020 of them will start to realize is how much, uh, consumerism actually happens in the physical 00:35:01.020 --> 00:35:06.900 environment. Right. And so, uh, uh, how, how are you guys as part of your service, like walk 00:35:06.900 --> 00:35:11.180 through, uh, like somewhat of a service structure as far as how you guys bridge that gap and get 00:35:11.180 --> 00:35:13.780 to the community portion for the person who's coming home? 00:35:14.220 --> 00:35:19.240 Yeah. And then real quick, like how, what would be just to clarify, like when you say consumerism, 00:35:19.240 --> 00:35:22.800 what would, what would someone say would be an example of that? 00:35:23.220 --> 00:35:28.200 When they say that, it's typically like I sit down and I just absorb content. So I cut, I sit down 00:35:28.200 --> 00:35:32.660 and I just get preached at, or, you know, Hey, we sing some songs. I listened to a sermon and then 00:35:32.660 --> 00:35:37.500 I'm out and I don't really make any kind of personal connection. I don't have any kind of personal 00:35:37.500 --> 00:35:41.800 ties or even in the least, right? Like some churches consider this like in the least of a step, 00:35:41.800 --> 00:35:46.540 Hey, I didn't even fill out a card or I didn't even submit like some kind of next step or anything 00:35:46.540 --> 00:35:51.580 like that. So, and then I just want to flesh it out, um, a little bit. Cause I, I remember this 00:35:51.580 --> 00:35:56.760 argument for a long time ago. I just haven't been in it for a while. So is that it, would a church 00:35:56.760 --> 00:36:01.400 assume that they're doing it right and the attendee is doing it wrong? Is that the assumption, 00:36:01.400 --> 00:36:02.800 um, as well? 00:36:03.820 --> 00:36:07.620 Yeah. So the church, right. So the churches start off with that construct, right? Like we're doing 00:36:07.620 --> 00:36:11.680 everything we can. And I remember Ed Stetzer wrote about this and Jeff, you love this article. 00:36:11.800 --> 00:36:16.240 Ed Stetzer talked about how we construct our churches. Like we do theaters in the sense of 00:36:16.240 --> 00:36:21.700 one person is exercising his gift and he stands on the stage and everybody else just sits there and 00:36:21.700 --> 00:36:27.420 just absorbs. And we assume that the body is taking place because one cell is active, but the rest of 00:36:27.420 --> 00:36:29.040 them are dormant during that time period. 00:36:29.400 --> 00:36:34.460 Right. Um, and so, yeah, and that's, I think maybe it wasn't clear in my brain, but now, now I'm seeing 00:36:34.460 --> 00:36:40.300 what you're saying is because, um, I just, I'm just wondering if maybe we got to start there. Like 00:36:40.300 --> 00:36:44.940 consumerism is not so much the people in the pews, but maybe the leadership or the structure that you've 00:36:44.940 --> 00:36:50.820 created. Um, so whether that's, you know, physical or whether that's virtual reality, um, I could 00:36:50.820 --> 00:36:57.520 create as a leader in VR, a situation that's just about me. Right. Um, forget the physical, it's just, 00:36:57.520 --> 00:37:01.280 you know, the VR thing, but I don't think that's what we're trying to do, but, but yeah, let me 00:37:01.280 --> 00:37:06.280 explain, let me explain a little bit about like what one experiences, um, in virtual reality. And so when 00:37:06.280 --> 00:37:11.940 they come in, they spawn into our, our church world and, uh, very similar to what you would see in, 00:37:11.940 --> 00:37:16.200 in a church is there's a welcome desk there. There's a prayer area. Um, we'll see the, 00:37:16.280 --> 00:37:20.520 the building, so to speak, we're really more in worlds and amphitheaters than like an actual 00:37:20.520 --> 00:37:25.200 building, but, um, for lack of, you know, better words, they come in and they experience all that. 00:37:25.200 --> 00:37:29.000 And there's like, you know, people milling about people saying, hi, welcome. We'll have a welcome 00:37:29.000 --> 00:37:33.720 team there. Um, they'll see a countdown. Uh, we kind of do a, I was part of that mega trip. So there's 00:37:33.720 --> 00:37:38.640 a lot of influences from that, you know, so I got a countdown with some, you know, jamming music going 00:37:38.640 --> 00:37:42.880 on and, and, uh, there'll be an announcement. Hey guys, we're going to start, uh, I can turn on a 00:37:42.880 --> 00:37:48.440 megaphone and it's kind of like a, the PA system. Um, and it's, I'm in everyone's ear. Like, hey guys, 00:37:48.440 --> 00:37:52.540 we're going to get started with VR church students. Good to have you. Um, and then once the, the 00:37:52.540 --> 00:37:57.180 countdown is done, people will come into our environment and we have different environments 00:37:57.180 --> 00:38:01.880 that we use. Um, and so they'll come in and then I'll just greet everyone real quick. We'll go right 00:38:01.880 --> 00:38:07.160 into a worship song. Uh, people ask, you know, what's worship like? Well, we do a lot of lyrical videos. 00:38:07.160 --> 00:38:12.800 So like open resources at Oakland at life church, they have a lot of, uh, lyrical videos 00:38:12.800 --> 00:38:17.920 and actually works really, really well. And sometimes we'll have some, uh, uh, an individual 00:38:17.920 --> 00:38:22.560 that I'll like jam and his guitar and sing and people love that, um, too. Uh, we'll cast 00:38:22.560 --> 00:38:25.900 some vision about the church because we'll have a, we have a lot of visits, a lot of visitor 00:38:25.900 --> 00:38:30.300 flow, uh, people that are curious about what VR church is all about. And then in other worship 00:38:30.300 --> 00:38:34.700 song, and then we'll go into the sermon, uh, sermons for us have evolved. I used to deliver 00:38:34.700 --> 00:38:39.460 them from the stage, uh, with, you know, like a jumbo, um, with the big screen behind 00:38:39.460 --> 00:38:45.600 me. Uh, what we've been able to do now is every sermon is constructed. So we'll go create 00:38:45.600 --> 00:38:49.900 the environment for it. Um, we just did the whole book of John. We went chapter by chapter 00:38:49.900 --> 00:38:54.740 through the book of John and every chapter on a, on a Monday would be sent to our, our build 00:38:54.740 --> 00:38:59.520 team and our world builders would create whatever was happening in that chapter, whether it was 00:38:59.520 --> 00:39:03.560 the feeding of the 5,000, whether it was, you know, Jesus on the boat and the storm 00:39:03.560 --> 00:39:08.940 coming and we'll, we'll create those scenes. So, uh, the last one was, uh, John 21. We finished 00:39:08.940 --> 00:39:14.100 up that chapter where, um, uh, the disciples were out fishing and Jesus was on the shore 00:39:14.100 --> 00:39:19.020 and they couldn't catch the fish. And, and we had that whole like net, um, broken and the 00:39:19.020 --> 00:39:24.240 fish were there and, and the fire and the food was on the shore. And we actually, as a church 00:39:24.240 --> 00:39:30.720 walked into that, to that boat. So part of this sermon, I'm walking. So it's, it'd be kind, 00:39:30.720 --> 00:39:34.640 it's hard to explain after maybe send you a video, but so I'm not delivering. Yes, please. 00:39:35.140 --> 00:39:39.120 Yeah. I'm not delivering a sermon from the stage. I'm walking around and there's scripture in the 00:39:39.120 --> 00:39:43.360 sky. I'm talking about it and we'll go on the boat and we'll talk about, you know, what's 00:39:43.360 --> 00:39:49.080 happening with Peter. We all crossed the sea of Galilee and went to where Jesus was, was cooking the, 00:39:49.100 --> 00:39:53.260 uh, the fish and the bread. And we talked about that. We had a little sheep there for when Jesus 00:39:53.260 --> 00:39:58.720 talked about, you know, feed my sheep. So, uh, for us, it's very experiential. So people are walking 00:39:58.720 --> 00:40:03.660 it in these, uh, worlds, kind of like, like inception. Remember Leonardo DiCaprio and Ellen 00:40:03.660 --> 00:40:07.680 Page, you know, they're building these worlds with their minds. It's very similar to what we do. 00:40:08.200 --> 00:40:12.900 And, um, and I think people are pleasantly surprised about it, uh, because people come in 00:40:12.900 --> 00:40:18.420 thinking, you know, not to, um, be negative towards stage sermons, but people come in thinking, 00:40:18.420 --> 00:40:22.300 oh, this is going to be a stage sermon for 20 minutes, but, and then they find out we're 00:40:22.300 --> 00:40:28.340 just walking all together through these experiences. And, uh, that is what people have been saying 00:40:28.340 --> 00:40:33.520 about VR is that we're leaving the information age and we're entering the experience age and 00:40:33.520 --> 00:40:35.120 that's, um, VR and AR. 00:40:35.980 --> 00:40:40.000 DJ, you know, my wife, my wife's a teacher and we talk about all the different styles of 00:40:40.000 --> 00:40:44.000 learning. Are you discovering a new style of learning with this? Because this immersive 00:40:44.000 --> 00:40:49.880 environment just sounds so perfect, uh, for different styles of learning to take place 00:40:49.880 --> 00:40:54.600 in so much. So, you know, you're making the scriptures come alive for people in such a way 00:40:54.600 --> 00:40:59.380 that, that they can experience it, that they could see it, that they can, that they can borderline 00:40:59.380 --> 00:41:03.760 feel it in such a way that it's, that it's, it's not so much that it's real to them, but it's just a 00:41:03.760 --> 00:41:06.860 different, it's a very different way to experience the Bible that you're talking about here, 00:41:06.960 --> 00:41:08.140 which I just think is amazing. 00:41:08.660 --> 00:41:12.940 Yes. Uh, for us, it's new and I don't think we like discovered it and declared it. I think it was 00:41:12.940 --> 00:41:18.840 more of a subtle thing. We just kind of just, just hop, you know, um, happened into. So I think 00:41:18.840 --> 00:41:24.620 what it does is it just imprints it, um, that memory in a different way. So, um, you know, like 00:41:24.620 --> 00:41:28.440 you might have, like you might watch a, like a movie, right. And you might watch a movie. I remember 00:41:28.440 --> 00:41:33.640 maybe you'll have dreams about it. Uh, but virtual reality now creates a new imprint on your brain 00:41:33.640 --> 00:41:39.240 where everything's in 360. So, um, when you remember the scriptures, the sermon, you actually 00:41:39.240 --> 00:41:44.300 walked on the boat, you actually were by the Sea of Galilee. You saw the fire cooking there. There's 00:41:44.300 --> 00:41:53.000 the sheep. And so there is a new, um, there's a new aspect of memory and education and experience 00:41:53.000 --> 00:41:57.940 that I think is imprinting the narrative of the Bible at it in a different way that we haven't 00:41:57.940 --> 00:42:01.140 seen before. Um, so it's, it's, it's interesting. 00:42:02.720 --> 00:42:08.300 That is so cool. I just, I'm, I'm going to come, I'm going to jump on. I've been waiting 00:42:08.300 --> 00:42:12.880 for this, this quest to come out because when I was reading about it, it seemed like it was 00:42:12.880 --> 00:42:18.360 the best headset to kind of be that entry, uh, point. Uh, but I do, I want, I want to come 00:42:18.360 --> 00:42:23.020 going to hang out at your church. When do you guys, when do you guys meet? Right. So, uh, 00:42:23.020 --> 00:42:25.180 cause yeah, it's, it's live, live, right? 00:42:25.960 --> 00:42:31.060 Yeah. Live, live, uh, 2 PM on Eastern. Um, that's our European service that's led by 00:42:31.060 --> 00:42:36.980 our, I team teach with our European pastor. His name is pastor Bismick. Um, and then 7 30 PM 00:42:36.980 --> 00:42:42.040 Eastern, but, uh, we'll probably fill that afternoon with our two more new church plans coming. Um, 00:42:42.040 --> 00:42:45.980 and then we have, uh, life groups starting the week. And the one thing I forgot to mention, 00:42:45.980 --> 00:42:51.260 if you're familiar with discord, discord is like a chat interface used by a lot of gamers and guilds 00:42:51.260 --> 00:42:56.200 use that for the life of our church. So when we're offline, there's quite a bit going on on discord. 00:42:56.320 --> 00:43:02.500 I probably, we probably have about 400, you know, hitting up to 500 members on discord and there's 00:43:02.500 --> 00:43:07.020 prayer, there's just general chatting. There's, there's a bunch of stuff. And that's how there's, 00:43:07.080 --> 00:43:12.100 that's like the glue for us. Um, cause there's that large event, there's a small group, and then 00:43:12.100 --> 00:43:16.500 there's this kind of like the space in between and that's what discord fills it in. So there's almost 00:43:16.500 --> 00:43:21.300 a cohesiveness, um, happening, uh, for our experience. It's, it's funny. You mentioned 00:43:21.300 --> 00:43:28.520 that last, uh, last episode, Jate, uh, who runs a video game ministry is got like 650, right? It was, 00:43:28.600 --> 00:43:34.400 I think that was it like around 650 people, uh, in a discord and he's discipling them to like 00:43:34.400 --> 00:43:40.000 share their faith and going through, um, four fields and like really just some really crazy 00:43:40.000 --> 00:43:44.040 discipleship stuff. That's amazing. That's a lot of people. That's really good. And, and man, 00:43:44.040 --> 00:43:49.200 it's, it's just, uh, you know, discord's not a, not a tool. I mean, I've got it on my phone. 00:43:49.200 --> 00:43:55.100 I play a star Wars iOS game that they want me to be on discord, the guild that I'm in or whatever, 00:43:55.300 --> 00:44:00.540 but like, it's not, it's not on my radar. Right. But evidently like they're addicted to it and 00:44:00.540 --> 00:44:06.080 they're on that platform all the time, uh, utilizing it to, to communicate in the, in the plan. And so 00:44:06.080 --> 00:44:13.420 using those, those tools just to even continue on the conversation, um, where there already are 00:44:13.420 --> 00:44:19.060 starting to talk about spiritual things and praying together within that space is awesome. 00:44:19.820 --> 00:44:25.220 We're even talking about like, at what point do we create a second server? Because we do want there 00:44:25.220 --> 00:44:30.780 to be a sense of discipleship and community and spiritual life, but, uh, we can see already that 00:44:30.780 --> 00:44:35.700 at some point it's going to be too much. And you're just going to feel like, like we want to take that 00:44:35.700 --> 00:44:40.080 mega church feel that maybe we have on a Sunday and break it down through life groups and on discord, 00:44:40.080 --> 00:44:44.620 discord, but our discord starting to become a mega discord. I don't know what you want, what, what the 00:44:44.620 --> 00:44:49.140 right word is. So we might need to like create another server there, which is the beauty of that 00:44:49.140 --> 00:44:55.540 technology. But yeah. Yeah. He's got his, his, his core. I want to say his core is about, you can go 00:44:55.540 --> 00:45:01.600 back to listen to the last episode, but I'm pretty sure core was like around 20. Um, you know, the, the committed 00:45:01.600 --> 00:45:09.220 was closer to 50 and that's 650 is kind of the, I'm in the community, but I'm not a leader in that. 00:45:09.220 --> 00:45:16.140 And so he's got his 15 to impact his 50 to go out and, and, uh, and message. That's beautiful. Yeah. 00:45:16.380 --> 00:45:22.120 So it's, it's just, man. And I love, I mean, I love stories like this because before I had the podcast 00:45:22.120 --> 00:45:28.740 with Jade and now you like discord wasn't even on my radar. I'm pretty sure I downloaded it. I didn't even, 00:45:28.740 --> 00:45:32.940 I had an account, but it wasn't even on my phone, you know, like it just, I deleted it because it 00:45:32.940 --> 00:45:37.120 wasn't to me, it wasn't a big deal because I'm not in that space, but now recognizing, man, there's 00:45:37.120 --> 00:45:42.840 all sorts of, of people that are using this. That is, there are, they do have community there and the 00:45:42.840 --> 00:45:49.280 church has an opportunity to create, to be part of that community and to use that community to point 00:45:49.280 --> 00:45:56.160 and connect people to Christ is, is a phenomenal, um, phenomenal idea that that's out there. So, um, 00:45:56.240 --> 00:46:02.680 Hey DJ, this is the last question that I want to ask where, where is this going? Where is VR going 00:46:02.680 --> 00:46:07.540 to be? Look in your, in your, you know, magic glasses, getting your DeLorean, whatever you got 00:46:07.540 --> 00:46:15.460 to do. Um, 10 years from now, 20 years from now, VR church. Um, is it, is it just you guys? What 00:46:15.460 --> 00:46:21.060 is the other churches look like adopting into it? Who's in that space? Where are we going 20 years 00:46:21.060 --> 00:46:25.400 from now? 2040? Yeah. Yeah. I have some thoughts about that and I'm just going to give them to you. 00:46:25.440 --> 00:46:28.980 You can take them or leave them because some of them might be a little far out there. But, um, 00:46:29.040 --> 00:46:34.380 if we back up just a touch, you think about, excuse me, you think about like churches that were 00:46:34.380 --> 00:46:40.080 hesitant to, you know, add a website, you know, at some point in the past, or maybe recently it was, 00:46:40.140 --> 00:46:45.660 it was Facebook that they were hesitant to add. Sorry, I got some in my throat there. And, um, 00:46:45.660 --> 00:46:50.320 but like in 2019, it would, it'd be ridiculous to think that you, you wouldn't have a website. 00:46:50.500 --> 00:46:54.800 You wouldn't have a Facebook. You just wouldn't be, you know, imaginable that that would be a thing. 00:46:55.160 --> 00:46:59.680 So fast forward, I don't know if this is two years, five years, 10 years, it's going to be the 00:46:59.680 --> 00:47:05.260 same thing with VR and AR. Um, when we thought, you know, this is a, you know, a technology that not 00:47:05.260 --> 00:47:09.660 to be regarded, I think churches are going to discover that it's going to be an expected part 00:47:09.660 --> 00:47:14.540 of your experience. What are you offering in VR? And particularly for online, like if you're 00:47:14.540 --> 00:47:20.180 organization or your, your church adopts an online campus, it's the most logical next step. 00:47:20.600 --> 00:47:24.820 Um, it really is. And I know other churches are struggling, you know, with the ecclesiology of 00:47:24.820 --> 00:47:29.080 it, but if your church says, yeah, we're, we like online campuses and that's what we're going to do. 00:47:29.400 --> 00:47:33.180 Virtual reality is going to be the next step for you. I think it's going to be quite disruptive. 00:47:33.640 --> 00:47:37.620 I think it's going to be one of the more disruptive technologies the church has faced in this 00:47:37.620 --> 00:47:42.360 digital era, which is still like in the history of the church still very like a much a baby, like 00:47:42.360 --> 00:47:47.440 internet and T, uh, you know, computers and technology smartphones. This is just, we're just 00:47:47.440 --> 00:47:52.700 barely getting started. And now VR is coming around. And so I think it's going to be super 00:47:52.700 --> 00:47:58.580 disruptive. And I think churches are going to, um, are going to have a hard time to know what to do 00:47:58.580 --> 00:48:06.660 with it. And so I hope that primarily number one churches plant, or they have a multi-site and one 00:48:06.660 --> 00:48:11.320 of their multi-site is a VR campus. I mean, that needs to happen. I hope churches, you know, get into 00:48:11.320 --> 00:48:18.120 that. Um, and at least for us, it's like, we're the only church in VR right now. I think there's a 00:48:18.120 --> 00:48:21.500 couple of people doing some really good spiritual work, but they maybe wouldn't call themselves a 00:48:21.500 --> 00:48:28.160 church. Um, so right now we just need people to come and to help plant churches. It'd be like if 00:48:28.160 --> 00:48:32.800 there was only one church in New York, I think I alluded to that earlier. And like, it wouldn't make 00:48:32.800 --> 00:48:36.740 sense that that even would be a thing. And, and certainly church planners would go there. And 00:48:36.740 --> 00:48:41.140 that's what church planners do. They, they look and see where is the need, where is there a low 00:48:41.140 --> 00:48:49.040 amount of churches? And as far as digital and online and virtual reality, the lowest like engaged 00:48:49.040 --> 00:48:54.320 is virtual reality. So we do need churches. We do need online ministers to engage that space. 00:48:54.820 --> 00:48:59.840 Um, and it's going to be, it's going to be crazy because the technology is only, I mean, this is a, 00:49:00.900 --> 00:49:05.140 this is a, you know, it's a big, it's a big device. It's comfortable, but it's not like, 00:49:05.140 --> 00:49:09.280 um, you know, you can stick it in your pocket thing, like the thing with, uh, like a smartphone. 00:49:10.140 --> 00:49:13.520 Um, so, but it's only going to be a matter of time before these things, like, I don't know, 00:49:13.580 --> 00:49:17.180 10, 20 years, who knows where these things just become a pair of glasses and you'll just be in 00:49:17.180 --> 00:49:21.840 your pocket, put your glasses on and you're in a fully VR experience. Um, the avatars are going to 00:49:21.840 --> 00:49:26.440 look human-like. We're going to be existing in these virtual worlds. We're going to go to school. 00:49:26.440 --> 00:49:30.720 We're going to go to work. We're even going to go to church in VR. Um, and I think that's going to be 00:49:30.720 --> 00:49:36.140 a big thing coming that maybe, and that's going to be like, you're talking about, um, it was like, 00:49:36.140 --> 00:49:42.520 that's might be a generational thing. Um, but certainly like my kids there, they would have 00:49:42.520 --> 00:49:47.540 no problem being part of a church. That's like virtual reality. I think that generation is going 00:49:47.540 --> 00:49:51.860 to come up and theologically, that's not even going to be on their radar. Um, so I think it's 00:49:51.860 --> 00:49:57.320 going to be an interesting future with VR and AR. Um, part of me, it says, it's hard to tell what's 00:49:57.320 --> 00:50:00.820 going to happen. The other part of me says, I think this is going to be quite disruptive and, 00:50:00.920 --> 00:50:08.720 and, um, and possibly in a really good way. So, um, yeah, the rest of there was, um, a Clay 00:50:08.720 --> 00:50:13.980 Scroggins quote, uh, he said at a conference I was at recently, um, you know, the business world 00:50:13.980 --> 00:50:19.620 looks at the digital disruption as, as an opportunity. The church, uh, looks at digital disruption 00:50:19.620 --> 00:50:26.060 as an obstacle to overcome or an obstacle to run away from. Yeah. And so it'll, it really 00:50:26.060 --> 00:50:33.360 will be interesting to see, um, how the technology is adopted. Traditionally, churches don't, um, 00:50:33.820 --> 00:50:39.940 they don't adopt technology. Well, it's usually pioneers and innovators, honestly, like yourself 00:50:39.940 --> 00:50:44.680 who have jumped into the space and said, you know, I'm claiming this for Christ, even though 00:50:44.680 --> 00:50:51.080 everybody else is on the sidelines, uh, ridiculing or saying why you're wrong, um, in that. And so, 00:50:51.120 --> 00:50:56.280 man, first off, I just want to thank you for being a pioneer, uh, for jumping, for jumping in this area, 00:50:56.280 --> 00:51:02.000 uh, when, when the rest of the world probably isn't as supportive as it could be and, uh, taking some 00:51:02.000 --> 00:51:11.160 lumps, uh, through, uh, comedy central, which ended up your, your, your church 400%. God works even on 00:51:11.160 --> 00:51:17.460 cable TV these days. So I thought that, Hey Ray, as, as we're landing the plane here, man, in any 00:51:17.460 --> 00:51:22.880 thoughts or anything on your end, DJ, I hope we can have you back. I've still got so much more that I 00:51:22.880 --> 00:51:27.080 want to learn and listen in and look forward to checking out more through this. Just like Jeff, 00:51:27.080 --> 00:51:31.100 I can't wait to get a headset and, and, uh, start diving in and seeing more about what you're doing. 00:51:31.260 --> 00:51:35.920 Yeah, that'd be awesome. Yeah. Yeah. I had a great time. Thanks for having me on the podcast. It was 00:51:35.920 --> 00:51:41.040 great. We'd love to have you back. Maybe once you get a couple of these multi-sites, uh, launched 00:51:41.040 --> 00:51:45.920 here in the other meta versus if I'm using the right word. Yeah, that's right. And, um, I do, 00:51:46.020 --> 00:51:52.660 I do want to jump in a couple, uh, um, uh, I'm trying to think of services. I started to say shows. 00:51:52.660 --> 00:51:59.000 It's not the right services to just try to get that feel and maybe have a more, um, you know, 00:51:59.020 --> 00:52:04.440 open Frank dialogue on it. Yeah. Yeah. I think, man, I think it'd be pleasantly surprised. Yo, 00:52:04.440 --> 00:52:09.240 thanks for having me. I had a great time. Awesome. Hey, uh, this is it for the church.digital. We're 00:52:09.240 --> 00:52:12.020 going to wrap here and we'll see you next time. Y'all have a good day.