WEBVTT 00:00:00.140 --> 00:00:04.700 Hey listeners, this is Jeff Reed with the Church Digital Podcast. I'm excited about 00:00:04.700 --> 00:00:10.420 this episode coming up. This is going to be a really, really fun conversation. So on the 00:00:10.420 --> 00:00:16.480 podcast today, we've got Anthony Coppedge. Now, this guy goes way back. I'm going to 00:00:16.480 --> 00:00:22.780 be honest. This man was an influence to me back in the 90s and 2000s, an early voice 00:00:22.780 --> 00:00:28.320 in church and back in a time where as a production director, as a guy who was involved in church, 00:00:28.320 --> 00:00:32.920 doing church communications, even with the dawn of social media and a lot of that stuff, 00:00:33.000 --> 00:00:38.060 there weren't a lot of influences back there back in the day. Anthony Coppedge has been and 00:00:38.060 --> 00:00:43.760 continues to be one of those voices. And so I ran into Anthony, not in the physical realm, 00:00:43.840 --> 00:00:48.680 but more in the virtual realm and in a Facebook group. There was a question that was asked recently 00:00:48.680 --> 00:00:52.880 in an online digital and church leader Facebook group. By the way, we'll include a link to that 00:00:52.880 --> 00:00:56.760 if you guys want to get involved in this group, if you're in the digital ministry and you're not 00:00:56.760 --> 00:01:03.240 connected to this Facebook group. It's a great group to be in. But Andy Mage, who's a new online 00:01:03.240 --> 00:01:09.960 pastor with Bay Hope Church, asked the question, how does you handle membership and church membership 00:01:09.960 --> 00:01:16.220 in context of church online? And so a bunch of people started saying some things. I said some things. 00:01:16.980 --> 00:01:20.280 Anthony Coppedge comes in and says some things. And all of a sudden, Anthony and I 00:01:20.280 --> 00:01:26.920 throw Andy in the mix and some others really ended up getting into a deep conversation of what exactly 00:01:26.920 --> 00:01:33.320 church membership is. And somewhere in this conversation, I realized, wait, we don't need 00:01:33.320 --> 00:01:37.280 to just do this on Facebook. We need to have this conversation for real, get this recorded 00:01:37.280 --> 00:01:43.440 and share this with others. And so that's what today's podcast is going to be, ladies and gentlemen. 00:01:43.440 --> 00:01:49.360 We are literally going to be talking about what exactly is church membership and how can it work 00:01:49.360 --> 00:01:54.900 online? We've got Anthony Coppedge on the show. We've got Ray DeArmis, of course, online pastor 00:01:54.900 --> 00:02:01.840 at Christ Fellowship in Miami, diving into the conversation of church membership in context 00:02:01.840 --> 00:02:07.600 of church online. Here you go. What if you said church membership to the average church rate? You answer 00:02:07.600 --> 00:02:13.560 this question, Ray's in the online realm or in as online pastor, former campus pastor at Christ 00:02:13.560 --> 00:02:18.800 Fellowship Miami. And don't make this about CFI. I mean, I won't, but like what, how is church 00:02:18.800 --> 00:02:25.780 membership defined today in an average? Yeah. When I talk to different pastors about church membership 00:02:25.780 --> 00:02:32.320 in their, in their mind and some of the things that come out as, Hey, I am responsible for this 00:02:32.320 --> 00:02:36.080 individual spiritually. I'm responsible for their spiritual development and for their growth 00:02:36.080 --> 00:02:40.740 directly. Like I'm identifying like the people that I am directly responsible for and that 00:02:40.740 --> 00:02:46.100 we are entering into a covenant agreement that they're entering underneath my care and underneath 00:02:46.100 --> 00:02:51.720 my stewardship. And, and their responsibility is, you know, in, in some cases, like in Southern 00:02:51.720 --> 00:02:58.560 Baptist cases, uh, you know, they vote, they have a say in church, you know, matters, uh, that 00:02:58.560 --> 00:03:03.600 can vary from church to church. Uh, that can even vary like in style of church and sense of 00:03:03.600 --> 00:03:08.780 strategy, whether it's multi-site or whether it's, Hey, we have church online and, and some 00:03:08.780 --> 00:03:12.840 of these folks can or can't have a say in terms of what happens here. And so that's where some 00:03:12.840 --> 00:03:17.520 of that becomes problematic, but generally, generally it has to do with, Hey, so now you 00:03:17.520 --> 00:03:23.060 get a say in the family and I'm now recognizing that you're an official member of the family. 00:03:23.140 --> 00:03:27.180 You're not just somebody who comes in that you're kind of, you know, and for lack of a better 00:03:27.180 --> 00:03:32.700 metaphor that we've adopted you into our care. And so that's, that's kind of what I've seen 00:03:32.700 --> 00:03:36.660 when I've talked to different pastors and ministers, uh, of churches that have membership. 00:03:37.880 --> 00:03:44.200 So like what's at Christ fellowship, let's drill into this, like just curious, what's the process 00:03:44.200 --> 00:03:50.080 to go from like, uh, uh, a visitor to somebody that that's a membership. What is that? What, 00:03:50.180 --> 00:03:55.160 what does that process look like for any, any given church? Absolutely. So for us, it's been, 00:03:55.260 --> 00:04:00.180 Hey, so they take, you know, membership class, which we term CF one-on-one, right? Uh, churches 00:04:00.180 --> 00:04:04.420 have different forms of this. Uh, this isn't that far from like, you know, we, we talked with Jay 00:04:04.420 --> 00:04:09.020 Cranta on the podcast before, you know, Saddleback kind of directed the whole one-on-one, two-o-one, 00:04:09.100 --> 00:04:13.740 three-o-one, four-o-one process for their membership. For us, we have one-on-one in which we explain 00:04:13.740 --> 00:04:19.520 the lay of the land, which is similar in strategy in that we expect people to attend worship. We expect 00:04:19.520 --> 00:04:24.280 them to connect to a small group. We expect them to join a ministry team, uh, joy serving team. And 00:04:24.280 --> 00:04:27.600 then finally we expect them, you know, to tell others about Christ or to go on mission, whether it's 00:04:27.600 --> 00:04:33.000 locally or globally. And so, you know, that's the strategy. And so what we expect them to do is to 00:04:33.000 --> 00:04:36.960 enact all parts of the strategy. Of course, we're still good Southern Baptist church. And so they've 00:04:36.960 --> 00:04:42.460 got to be baptized by immersion, you know, and, uh, or joined by letter from another church. See Anthony 00:04:42.460 --> 00:04:48.460 laughing over there. I know, I know that strikes a chord with you, baby. And so this is, this is kind 00:04:48.460 --> 00:04:52.180 of what it is to be a member, you know, and so they, they enter into a covenant by signing off on a 00:04:52.180 --> 00:04:57.980 document. And now they're a member of our church. That's essentially what it is. They're enacting the 00:04:57.980 --> 00:05:02.900 four parts of the strategy. Uh, we, as such, we keep up with them as members. And, you know, 00:05:02.900 --> 00:05:06.980 when we go through our voting process, like basically around once a year, uh, they get 00:05:06.980 --> 00:05:11.640 to take part in that, you know, which for us, and this is kind of the struggle, even then 00:05:11.640 --> 00:05:16.440 ecclesiologically, it still happens like during a service hour in which, yes, some people who 00:05:16.440 --> 00:05:21.300 aren't members also possibly raised their hand and vote. That's just, you know, with some transparency 00:05:21.300 --> 00:05:24.400 there, that's something that happens. So there you go. 00:05:24.400 --> 00:05:30.520 So with, with the, the, the wrestle, you know, and, and in context of, of Andy's question, when he was 00:05:30.520 --> 00:05:37.120 wrestling with, when he was asking this is, Hey, I've got, I've got members that are, I said members, 00:05:37.120 --> 00:05:43.680 it's funny. I've got people who are experiencing our services online. Uh, you know, if, if you have 00:05:43.680 --> 00:05:48.900 a well-developed discipleship process involving small groups and, and, and a strong vision towards 00:05:48.900 --> 00:05:56.840 online, you could have people who are engaged in your church, um, virtually, uh, maybe even at the 00:05:56.840 --> 00:06:03.760 same level as someone is at the physical realm or, you know, or, and that, that's interesting. Um, 00:06:03.940 --> 00:06:08.260 you know, I, I can think, and I'm just open up here. I can think of a personal story when, as I, 00:06:08.260 --> 00:06:15.900 as an online pastor had someone who was, um, in another state who had, had someone who was, uh, 00:06:15.900 --> 00:06:22.720 regularly giving, um, a very high amount, not that size matters, but was regularly giving and tithing 00:06:22.720 --> 00:06:29.280 as would be appreciated and expected at a church, uh, was leading a small group, was serving as a 00:06:29.280 --> 00:06:35.120 small group leader. Uh, you know, and if you're checking off your first base, second base, third base, 00:06:35.180 --> 00:06:41.200 the boxes, thank you, uh, Rick Warren, if you're checking that off, this person's fully engaged, 00:06:41.200 --> 00:06:47.400 you know, into creating this disciple of, of, of Christ, at least how the church had deemed it. Um, 00:06:47.700 --> 00:06:54.140 but this person's in another state, in another time zone. And as a result of that, um, they're, 00:06:54.180 --> 00:06:58.520 they're not able to be, at least in context of the church that I was at, they're not able to be 00:06:58.520 --> 00:07:06.900 held to that same standard of membership, um, even though they are as dedicated, if not more 00:07:06.900 --> 00:07:12.940 dedicated than, than, than someone else. And so that's, that's some of the standard issues that 00:07:12.940 --> 00:07:21.740 we see in context of, of church online membership. Uh, and so, um, you know, Anthony, in, in your 00:07:21.740 --> 00:07:27.340 experience, kind of, um, walking into this and, and what you've seen over, over your years of, of 00:07:27.340 --> 00:07:36.060 membership, uh, of, of, uh, ministry, what does, yeah, it was good. Right. Um, I'll cut that out. 00:07:36.120 --> 00:07:42.400 This will be great. In your context of, of years of, of ministry, like what, what does membership 00:07:42.400 --> 00:07:48.300 look like or mean to you? How, when you look at the challenge of, of an online member that may be as 00:07:48.300 --> 00:07:53.340 dedicated or more, you know, obviously you're feeling something like, okay, the online person 00:07:53.340 --> 00:07:59.080 needs to be permitted to, to have, uh, own a piece of the vision, but, but what does that 00:07:59.080 --> 00:08:06.000 look like in today's age? I disagree with that statement. Um, they don't need permission to do 00:08:06.000 --> 00:08:13.140 anything because the, the way it works to become a member, basically it's, it's applied to being, 00:08:14.040 --> 00:08:19.880 to choose to be under the governance of, of a group or a person, right? Typically Bible says elders, 00:08:19.880 --> 00:08:25.940 right. So you're under authority. That's a willful choice. So the choice to join or not is not the 00:08:25.940 --> 00:08:33.080 organization's choice. It's the person's choice. Right. So, so I would flip what you said. Um, it's 00:08:33.080 --> 00:08:38.200 the church that gets to say, Hey, these are the things we would really like. How do you feel about 00:08:38.200 --> 00:08:45.520 that? Because that's inclusive versus when you say, this is what it takes to play here. And if you want 00:08:45.520 --> 00:08:50.140 to be a part of it, sign on this contract or covenant or whatever you want to call it. And then 00:08:50.140 --> 00:08:57.080 they go, well, isn't that exclusive? Mm-hmm. But those are our rules. Now, no one has, I don't think, 00:08:57.080 --> 00:09:00.820 no, I can't say no one. I know there are some factors I've met them that are this way, but, but I would 00:09:00.820 --> 00:09:05.200 like to say most factors are not thinking that manipulatively. We're just trying to have some sort of 00:09:05.200 --> 00:09:10.420 confusion around vision. Right. So I understand the thinking there, but what ends up happening is the 00:09:10.420 --> 00:09:18.520 way we articulate and frame it becomes about you come be a part of our thing by our terms and we'll do 00:09:18.520 --> 00:09:24.340 things that benefit you. Hmm. It's a good point. And that's been the struggle with that term, right? With 00:09:24.340 --> 00:09:34.480 membership. It has been, because I can be a member of a gym or Costco or, uh, or church or a group. I, 00:09:34.480 --> 00:09:39.280 but that's my choice. That's the person I get to choose to be a part of that. Now the group may 00:09:39.280 --> 00:09:42.640 have rules. If you want to be a part of this group, you got to do these things. I get that. They can 00:09:42.640 --> 00:09:47.860 choose to accept or reject that. But ultimately, if we're trying to have open arms and say, we just, 00:09:47.860 --> 00:09:53.880 we love you, we're all about people or whatever your thing is, then you're going to say, will you 00:09:53.880 --> 00:10:01.420 join us with, can we serve you? It's a, it's both ways, right? It's not, are you just wanting to come 00:10:01.420 --> 00:10:06.440 to be a part of our thing? That's exclusive. It's how do we serve you? That's inclusive. And that's a 00:10:06.440 --> 00:10:11.680 distinction that I think should be made. That is not. And it also leads to the discussion of, well, 00:10:11.680 --> 00:10:16.020 then should an online church have the same vision as the main church that's sponsoring it or running, 00:10:16.240 --> 00:10:21.840 or should that functionally because it's operating differently, have a different set of mission 00:10:21.840 --> 00:10:28.480 statements, maybe aligned to a vision or should it operate exactly the same? Well, that's where 00:10:28.480 --> 00:10:35.140 the quality of church becomes difficult at that point because now we're, we have gray areas that 00:10:35.140 --> 00:10:41.180 don't know, we don't know how to address for the most part. I have ideas, but yeah. Let's, let's, 00:10:41.260 --> 00:10:47.120 let's park on that because, and this is actually DJ, DJ Soto, uh, VR church was, was on a couple 00:10:47.120 --> 00:10:53.180 episodes ago, uh, episode, I think it was 14 if you're keeping score at home. And, um, and so he 00:10:53.180 --> 00:11:00.000 was talking about how, and it was, it was a new concept to me. He's, he's like physical church, uh, 00:11:00.000 --> 00:11:05.400 has a different set of rules than what he defined as digital church, church online, which has, when his, 00:11:05.400 --> 00:11:11.280 his term, cause he's doing in VR, he's like VR is a completely set of different roles than, than 00:11:11.280 --> 00:11:16.340 digital. But what you're saying is that digital church online church may have a different scope, 00:11:16.340 --> 00:11:22.700 a different set. Uh, Anthony, as, as you're wrestling with that, like, how do you see it being different? 00:11:23.780 --> 00:11:31.540 Um, are you familiar with Andy Grove? Andy Grove was the, uh, CEO for Intel. One of the things he 00:11:31.540 --> 00:11:36.360 talked about was leadership and management. And what he said was that just like tennis, you have to have 00:11:36.360 --> 00:11:41.820 a good forehand and a good backhand, right? So you have to be able to lead and manage. So leadership is 00:11:41.820 --> 00:11:48.620 inspiring people, uh, to go where they've never been, um, and to trust to some extent to, to, to buy into 00:11:48.620 --> 00:11:55.580 that. Whereas management is the execution of this by them and in this way. And a really, really good 00:11:55.580 --> 00:12:00.620 manager is someone who just gets junk out of the way and lets people get their stuff done, right? So if you 00:12:00.620 --> 00:12:06.220 think about that model, then what we're saying is, can we inspire people to follow the same vision? 00:12:06.780 --> 00:12:12.940 Maybe. Can we manage them the same to accomplish something the same as in physical versus virtual 00:12:12.940 --> 00:12:17.900 or online versus true? No, probably not. You're probably going to have to do that differently. 00:12:17.900 --> 00:12:21.500 Your forehand is going to have to be solid, but then your backhand is going to be solid. So one of 00:12:21.500 --> 00:12:28.300 the things I've said is that, um, if you follow Andy's advice, then you must become comfortable with 00:12:28.300 --> 00:12:34.700 specific encouragement and helpful criticism because you're taking on both roles. Uh, you've got to say, 00:12:34.700 --> 00:12:38.540 it's got to be less like that. It should be more like this. And you've got to be the kind of person 00:12:38.540 --> 00:12:44.140 who blocks that. So you take the advice of growth, growth for the leadership management, 00:12:44.140 --> 00:12:48.860 which would apply at both levels, physical church, online, digital, whatever. But then you also change 00:12:48.860 --> 00:12:54.380 the rules of the game because the game is physically different in the virtual or online space. So the same 00:12:54.380 --> 00:13:00.140 rules are different. What is out of bounds in tennis on physical court is very different than what it is 00:13:00.140 --> 00:13:05.100 when it's pixels. Right? So now I've got to figure out, can I, can I even have the rules be the same 00:13:05.100 --> 00:13:09.580 or do I need to change the rules? Why are we limited to a two dimensional court or even a three 00:13:09.580 --> 00:13:14.060 dimensional court? Why couldn't we have a court that's on all four dimensions of x and y axis? 00:13:14.860 --> 00:13:20.060 Yeah. Like literally it's possible to think about it so differently that it doesn't even begin to 00:13:20.060 --> 00:13:25.260 resemble your digital thing. Therefore it shouldn't or couldn't have the same vision because it's operating 00:13:25.260 --> 00:13:30.700 fundamentally different. Right. I, I, I love this, but let's, let's put a little more practical angle 00:13:30.700 --> 00:13:36.460 on it. Both you guys, either one, like practical execution of that. We're talking 2D, 3D, 4D. I 00:13:36.460 --> 00:13:41.260 know those are analogies towards, towards things, but, but let's, let's, cause somebody out there is 00:13:41.260 --> 00:13:45.420 thinking 4D, what do we have to like figure out how to make our church service smell? We're not talking 00:13:45.420 --> 00:13:51.580 literal in that context. What is, uh, what are some practical examples of where a pixel church, 00:13:51.580 --> 00:13:57.180 I like that is different than a physical church? Ray, you're an online pastor. You deal with this 00:13:57.180 --> 00:14:02.700 all day long. Give me some examples. Well, so there's, there's some similarities in that, you know, 00:14:03.420 --> 00:14:07.900 the funny thing about that is the similarities that I've seen are, you know, when I come to a physical 00:14:07.900 --> 00:14:12.620 church service and when I come to a digital church service, uh, I'm basically receiving a lot of 00:14:12.620 --> 00:14:17.820 content. I'm being, you know, sung at, I'm being preached at, and so I'm basically downloading a whole 00:14:17.820 --> 00:14:22.940 lot of content at once. Uh, we've quoted this before from Ed Stetzer in terms of we construct 00:14:22.940 --> 00:14:27.820 our churches, you know, where one person uses the, you know, the majority of time uses his gift and 00:14:27.820 --> 00:14:32.620 everybody else just kind of sits around and watch, watches from that perspective. And in that way, 00:14:33.260 --> 00:14:37.020 physical locations and digital locations are exactly the same. Now in a digital environment, 00:14:37.020 --> 00:14:41.100 from what I've seen, uh, conversation can take place a lot more naturally within the service and 00:14:41.100 --> 00:14:45.340 you don't get your hands slapped for talking during the message. Remember when you were a kid 00:14:45.340 --> 00:14:49.500 and it's like, at least, you know, my parents bribed me with McDonald's. If I kept my mouth shut 00:14:49.500 --> 00:14:54.140 during church, you know, I'll do just keep quiet and then happy meal afterwards. It's all cool. 00:14:54.140 --> 00:14:58.220 You know, with digital church, this, you know, the carrots on the stick, the other way. No, 00:14:58.220 --> 00:15:03.180 we want you to engage. We want you to talk. We want you to get rules for a different game. 00:15:03.180 --> 00:15:07.340 Yeah. We want you to interact with what it is that we're talking about now. We want you to have 00:15:07.340 --> 00:15:11.740 real time conversation, not even in small group. Does this take place? You know, as the small group 00:15:11.740 --> 00:15:15.900 video is happening right in, in, in real time, we're telling everybody to be quiet. And then 00:15:15.900 --> 00:15:20.780 afterwards we have the discussion in real time in a digital environment, the content is just going 00:15:20.780 --> 00:15:28.220 and we're encouraging as much interaction between one another as possible. And so that's where to me, 00:15:28.220 --> 00:15:33.340 where the digital environment is amazing because we're encouraging the conversation. We're not trying 00:15:33.340 --> 00:15:36.940 to just slap the hand and keep it quiet. We're like, no, please talk during church, 00:15:36.940 --> 00:15:41.340 talk during church. We want it and beyond that way. I think you're, that's spot on. 00:15:41.340 --> 00:15:45.180 That's a good example of how the pixel is different from the physical, right? But here's another 00:15:45.180 --> 00:15:50.780 difference. That's a continuous stream of consciousness live on Sunday. It's our weekend, 00:15:50.780 --> 00:15:56.380 if I'm going to call it, but it doesn't have to be continuous stream of consciousness when you have 00:15:56.380 --> 00:16:02.060 digital. Now, if you're facilitating a live stream, sure. But what if you're doing small group, 00:16:02.060 --> 00:16:06.140 or what if the way you're presenting it is so different that you actually get pause and you have 00:16:06.140 --> 00:16:10.540 discussion and then you get play and it's video on demand, right? Or content, right? 00:16:10.540 --> 00:16:14.460 It doesn't have to be an uninterrupted stream where you talk over it like, oh, we're missing, 00:16:14.460 --> 00:16:19.900 but you can hit pause and they will sit there and wait because that's, that's normal, right? 00:16:19.900 --> 00:16:24.620 So again, the rules change. So you, you're flexing muscles that you don't even have in the other 00:16:24.620 --> 00:16:29.740 space and you have to, so you don't have to change the rules to play that way. I think what we're getting 00:16:29.740 --> 00:16:33.500 to those that you're asking, and it's a good question, Jeff, what are the differences? But 00:16:33.500 --> 00:16:39.260 here, what's the same? There is one focus. There is one focus. That's right. 00:16:39.260 --> 00:16:45.020 Or go and make disciples. It wasn't the great suggestion, right? So if that's the thing we're 00:16:45.020 --> 00:16:50.140 doing is the common denominator, then what we have to figure out is why do the church pundits and church 00:16:50.140 --> 00:17:01.420 leaders got to stop confusing style or format with focus. It's up on the technology or the medium or 00:17:01.420 --> 00:17:08.060 the time shifting. We can't seem to get past the thing that says, but, but this is how we've always 00:17:08.060 --> 00:17:11.820 done it. And yet the very people saying that are the ones who complained about the church that came 00:17:11.820 --> 00:17:15.100 before them always saying, that's the way we go into that. They're like, you were relevant already. 00:17:15.820 --> 00:17:22.700 Hey guys, check the mirror in 2019. You might be irrelevant too. You just have a hip version 00:17:22.700 --> 00:17:27.660 of irrelevancy, right? So instead with the constructive discussion here should be intentionally 00:17:27.660 --> 00:17:32.780 focusing away from programmatic attendance generator or styles of service to expend time, effort, 00:17:32.780 --> 00:17:39.020 and resources on deliberately emphasizing a personal journey of serving and leading others. Period. 00:17:39.020 --> 00:17:43.660 Yeah. How you, how you play that out has lots of options. 00:17:45.100 --> 00:17:48.620 And, uh, and so, and, and I've talked about this and blogged about this. We'll put it in the show 00:17:48.620 --> 00:17:54.300 notes is, is this idea of church online decentralizes your ministry. And to me, it's just because you're 00:17:55.900 --> 00:18:00.620 Yeah, exactly. And, but it, and okay, so let's unpack this down. Cause that's a great point. 00:18:00.620 --> 00:18:07.900 If I'm a, if I'm a one campus, I'm paying professionals to do ministry. Um, and so like, 00:18:07.900 --> 00:18:12.460 No, you're not. You're paying professionals to facilitate the dominion ministry. 00:18:12.460 --> 00:18:13.020 You hope. 00:18:13.020 --> 00:18:13.980 That's right. 00:18:13.980 --> 00:18:16.380 And so that's what you should be doing, right? 00:18:16.380 --> 00:18:22.060 Yeah. Okay. You, you hope you are in reality, you may or may not be multi-site. 00:18:22.060 --> 00:18:47.900 Yeah, if you started to broaden that. But at, at the end of the day, and so like, I'm, I'm confession. I may be a little jaded on this. Um, but when you look at, when you look at a physical campus, right? Um, you're going to see a lot more of the hero of the story. The hero of ministry is oftentimes that lead pastor on the stage. It's going to be the, the, the, the, the, the staff person. 00:18:47.900 --> 00:19:08.300 And who's doing ministry out there to the tens or the hundreds or the thousands, depending upon the ministry side. When I look at church online, I actually see that as an opportunity for the, the, the, the lead pastor, the lead communicator on stage. Um, whoever it is like that doesn't, that power doesn't necessarily convey. 00:19:08.460 --> 00:19:32.660 In another time zone in another state that the hero context, right? Yeah. Yeah. The hero of the story is the individual who you empower and say, Hey, you know what? You're in another time zone from this church. Um, we want to disciple you and empower you to create a biblical community where you are, right? You're in another time zone. Let's create a little, little piece of, of this church in your, in your state. 00:19:32.660 --> 00:19:44.040 And all of a sudden, like the, if you're, if we're working this discipleship model, the church online, isn't the abandonment, which a lot of times people think it's not the abandonment of physical community. 00:19:44.500 --> 00:19:55.780 It's the starting of new physical communities all over the places we're discipling and empowering people to develop these communities where they are. Christ Fellowship Miami. This is a great example. 00:19:56.280 --> 00:20:03.120 Christ Fellowship Miami right now has a, a physical small group that meets in San Antonio, Texas. 00:20:03.680 --> 00:20:17.540 It's led by a person that my mother, uh, who's 72 years old, discipled and grew to the place where she's now leading a physical small group in San Antonio. It's another time zone. It's a 20 hour drive away. 00:20:18.020 --> 00:20:19.340 That culture too. 00:20:20.060 --> 00:20:30.720 Oh yeah. Oh, a Bible belt versus, yeah, completely. But like that person in San Antonio standing on her own, creating this community with her coworkers and friends. That person's my hero. 00:20:31.140 --> 00:20:52.440 Right. I would rather tell her story and the stories like that, that all day long, but because we've gone from, um, the staff and, and I used to, I used to term earlier professional Christians and I even like, I don't, I don't really mean that, but it's gone from a, Hey, I'm going to do the work to, I'm going to empower others to do the work. 00:20:52.440 --> 00:21:04.580 And I'm not, I'm not looking for this because I'm trying to celebrate myself as much as now I want to empower others. And my joy comes from watching other ministry happen. 00:21:05.440 --> 00:21:20.280 That's right. And we're actually getting ready to have another one in California, which is, which is awesome. You know, it's one of those things where, um, you know, exactly what you're talking about, Anthony, like our, our role as pastors and Ephesians, right. It says that we're supposed to, we're supposed to empower others to do the work of the ministry. 00:21:20.800 --> 00:21:30.900 You know, like that's, that's what the shepherd is supposed to do. We're not supposed to be the doers of the ministry. We're supposed to be the empowers. We're supposed to set people, unleash, set them free, unleash them to do ministry. 00:21:30.900 --> 00:21:48.460 The great thing about church online that you're getting at Jeff that I love is that it decentralizes in that it's not limited to time and space. Once upon a time we had to worry about spaces or about Sunday school spaces or certain times where content could be, get distributed like leadership training or, you know, even theological training or different stuff. 00:21:48.700 --> 00:22:07.580 Now, because we can record something or we can live stream it or we can put it on demand. We don't have to worry as much about people showing up at a specific time. We can get it to them where they're at and they can go back and re-energize with that same content. They can, they can go back and share that content with others and we can encourage them and empower them to do so. 00:22:07.700 --> 00:22:23.940 That's really like the, one of the big wins that I see in, in this pixel and this digital environment is content doesn't have to die because you weren't there. You missed it. No, no, no, no. Instead, here's the content you take in and run with it and you go reach other people for Christ with it because you got it in the palm of your hand. 00:22:24.760 --> 00:22:32.000 There's a, there's a parallel, right? In the, in the business world, one of the things we're seeing is, is companies could do more remote work. 00:22:32.380 --> 00:22:45.440 What they're saying, it's, it's better for a lot of our employees to not physically be here, even in the same time zones and we can distribute the work, not just outside of campus, but outside of time zone to another country. 00:22:46.000 --> 00:22:50.120 Um, and it's very common to do that, but it just takes a difference of the skills. 00:22:50.520 --> 00:23:01.060 And so what you have to go is from the synchronous communication to asynchronous communication from synchronous activity alignment to asynchronous results going into the line. 00:23:01.240 --> 00:23:08.860 Right. So instead of saying, I need you to be in this meeting so that you can take the notes and we can get this PowerPoint felt or whatever, we're going to get these things delivered. 00:23:09.120 --> 00:23:22.020 Now you have a group of people that you entrust and you delegate that information and the resources out your process to manage to get them from A to Z and you have check-ins along the way and you don't ever have to physically be with any of them. 00:23:22.440 --> 00:23:35.320 I just wrote an article on medium.com. Um, that says, um, how did I, I can look it up, but basically it's that, that you as a remote manager, I value performance over presence. 00:23:35.860 --> 00:23:55.040 Right. And so it's very, it's very results oriented. Well, if I think about the discipleship thing that we're just talking about, it's right in that same discussion, because what we're saying is that we're interested in seeing you get what you need to go and to, to do whatever you can, wherever you are with whatever you have. 00:23:55.040 --> 00:24:16.500 We want to resource and facilitate that as it makes sense to you at your time and place, not as we have an offering on a weekend to deliver it to. That's a significant shift. And it's part for, I think the American church model, which is based around that pop up something on a weekend and build everything towards the weekend and then try to make it the same throughout the week. 00:24:16.500 --> 00:24:26.640 And then the death repeats every seven days. That model doesn't even begin to apply in the, in the picture world, in the digital world. And I think we have to be able to say, 00:24:26.700 --> 00:24:39.600 It's okay that it's okay that it's different and we need to empower and release this to be something that grows and does what it can with what it has and not be holden to the asynchronous work of a physical church. 00:24:39.600 --> 00:24:51.700 It's asynchronous on purpose. And by the way, with greater value to that community, it doesn't have same value as it has to be synchronous. This is why I look at the, Hey, we stream at these times. Why? 00:24:51.700 --> 00:25:03.800 Not that that's wrong, but couldn't you just say it's on demand and here are the times we facilitate group discussions and Tuesday nights and this time zone and Monday afternoons and that time zone. 00:25:03.800 --> 00:25:10.600 If you're really trying to take this and grow it, I think you have to get past the weekend model as the support anchor for the whole thing. 00:25:10.600 --> 00:25:15.800 So for example, when I talk to senior pastors, and I'm going to sit in a while to ask this question, but I'm sure the numbers are similar. 00:25:15.800 --> 00:25:21.700 I would ask what percent of what you share is remembered on Tuesday morning by your congregation. 00:25:22.500 --> 00:25:25.400 And the answer is usually between 20 and 30%, which I think is high. 00:25:25.940 --> 00:25:34.400 Right? So instead of saying we've come in front load and put this massive amount of effort into creating this awesome thing, IE of weekend service. 00:25:35.000 --> 00:25:40.340 That message then has to try to be applied during the week or what better way to do that than asynchronously. 00:25:40.900 --> 00:25:45.800 So it's, it's, there's a genius to the end rather than the, than the competition. 00:25:45.800 --> 00:25:48.800 Yeah, I agree with that completely. 00:25:49.200 --> 00:25:57.500 Now I want to take some of that and kind of point it back to the membership and kind of just kind of ask the question, Anthony, in terms of, all right, so we've got this content, we've got people interacting with it. 00:25:57.560 --> 00:25:58.180 Hey, that's cool. 00:25:58.720 --> 00:26:01.780 You know, but they're not, they're not, you know, here in person. 00:26:02.040 --> 00:26:04.720 How much of a say should they really have around here? 00:26:04.740 --> 00:26:08.820 If that's the case, like how should they be able to like help elect the senior pastor? 00:26:08.980 --> 00:26:12.200 Should they be able to help elect like some of the people that are making decisions around here? 00:26:12.200 --> 00:26:14.560 Like, cause that's where I hear a lot of churches get confused. 00:26:15.600 --> 00:26:18.480 church polity here's, here's the unpopular answer. 00:26:18.900 --> 00:26:19.680 Does it matter? 00:26:20.480 --> 00:26:33.100 Because ultimately if, if they're doing ministry in San Antonio and they're having great growth and people coming to Jesus, or they're learning together and they're serving the community in unique and meaningful ways. 00:26:33.420 --> 00:26:50.220 And I think that's why I think that's why I think that's why I think that's why I think that's why I think that's why I think the whole church polity is where it breaks down. 00:26:50.220 --> 00:27:01.820 And it's also why, if you go back from Reformation, obviously that the schisms that have happened are the timeline of church history since then, because someone's always trying to figure out, yeah, but what about this? 00:27:02.200 --> 00:27:04.300 And so they always want to, and so they always want to have their piece of the pie. 00:27:04.300 --> 00:27:05.500 What if it just doesn't matter? 00:27:06.400 --> 00:27:14.320 Well, I think that's where a lot of people are, not just the nuns or the young church, I think that's where a lot of the church people that just don't care as much about that. 00:27:14.320 --> 00:27:17.500 I think my neighbor needs help or, you know, I lost my job. 00:27:17.600 --> 00:27:18.660 You can really do some help. 00:27:19.160 --> 00:27:20.600 I need, I need some training. 00:27:20.800 --> 00:27:23.800 We need, we could really use a little bit of cash, whatever that looks like. 00:27:23.860 --> 00:27:25.540 There are ways we can practically help. 00:27:25.560 --> 00:27:27.240 It has nothing to do with church policy. 00:27:27.880 --> 00:27:32.540 So if you take that discussion and, and, and I can say, remove it. 00:27:32.740 --> 00:27:42.200 If you de-thrown it from the place of prominence that I think a lot of denominational have, and you just got back to how do you love people and make disciples and help people where they are. 00:27:42.660 --> 00:27:46.700 Church pollen will have very, very, very, very, very, very, very little to say about it. 00:27:47.480 --> 00:27:51.900 You know, Romans 13, no leadership's in place that God hasn't instituted. 00:27:51.900 --> 00:28:05.120 And so, you know, some of that, I feel like we just try to over-orchestrate things that, that we really shouldn't be worrying about, to, to Anthony's point of, of just making disciples. 00:28:05.120 --> 00:28:11.800 And what we've, we've done here, and I don't know that I intentionally mean it, meant to do it this way, but we kind of did. 00:28:12.020 --> 00:28:26.080 Like, we're, we're setting this picture that, that church online has more of a discipleship structure or potential for discipleship structure by decentralizing away from leadership and empowering the people to be the heroes. 00:28:26.480 --> 00:28:40.660 You know, even this, this idea of, well, in a pixel church, we, we can have, you know, a much more integration of, or, what's the word, chatting and talking and be able to engage people. 00:28:41.200 --> 00:28:41.540 Engagement. 00:28:41.760 --> 00:28:43.440 Actually, engagement was worth looking for. 00:28:43.980 --> 00:28:47.600 Engaging people in, in a virtual environment, but we don't have it in the physical. 00:28:48.400 --> 00:28:55.300 But then, I mean, honestly, like I said in a conference, you know, and I, and I hear, I hear that the speakers say, Clay Scroggins. 00:28:55.460 --> 00:29:01.080 He's like, the, the church, the church business model that we operate on today needs to be destroyed. 00:29:01.580 --> 00:29:02.860 And it wasn't his exact words. 00:29:02.920 --> 00:29:04.360 I think he actually said blow up. 00:29:04.920 --> 00:29:17.420 But the, the point of where we're operating in, in up to this point over the past 2000 years has worked, but culture is shifting away from the traditional business model where they're not engaging with this. 00:29:17.420 --> 00:29:30.120 66% of the people are not wanting to come into your building, 80% of people will have a conversation about their faith with their friends, not coming in to see, to hear, you know, a lecture from the stage. 00:29:30.760 --> 00:29:30.980 Right. 00:29:31.560 --> 00:29:44.980 At what point do we look at the, at the, and this is a loaded question, like, and I don't know that we're going to solve this problem today, but at what point do we look at, at the physical church and say, okay, hey, there's some lessons we need to learn in general. 00:29:44.980 --> 00:29:49.980 Because the things that we're doing may or may not be effective today. 00:29:50.340 --> 00:29:53.920 Now, see, Ray, Jeff just took out his 11 foot pole there, right? 00:29:53.980 --> 00:29:57.480 That's the pole that, that you use when you don't touch things with your 10 foot pole. 00:29:57.880 --> 00:29:58.720 That's the big one. 00:29:58.820 --> 00:30:00.320 You're poking the big thing now. 00:30:00.480 --> 00:30:02.240 And you're right that that's a big thing. 00:30:03.180 --> 00:30:07.780 Well, you know, the struggle that I have with that is, is, you know, the argument that it's always worked. 00:30:07.880 --> 00:30:14.540 You know, we have to go back and we have to take a look at how we've adapted over time too, you know, and point out our inconsistencies in terms of strategy. 00:30:14.540 --> 00:30:25.020 Like I remember in seminary, you know, we had, we had a great discussion over where and when Sunday night services became a thing and why some people still did them. 00:30:25.440 --> 00:30:30.480 And what we started on earth was it was a, it was a structured way to reach farmers at one point. 00:30:30.800 --> 00:30:36.880 And then it just became tradition as opposed to, oh, this is new Testament mandated or something along those lines. 00:30:36.920 --> 00:30:39.780 And it made a lot of folks uncomfortable as far as how a lot of that went down. 00:30:40.340 --> 00:30:42.540 You said something, Ray, that I just want to challenge. 00:30:42.620 --> 00:30:44.260 You said, well, we do it because it works. 00:30:44.900 --> 00:30:46.660 Let me just ask the big question. 00:30:47.100 --> 00:30:52.420 If it works so well, why does 66% of people never show up and 80% won't have that discussion? 00:30:52.840 --> 00:30:53.180 That's right. 00:30:53.220 --> 00:30:57.720 That's not the, the stats would tell you it's not working. 00:30:58.200 --> 00:30:58.300 Right. 00:30:58.300 --> 00:31:02.380 The church means for most churches, it's working well enough to maintain the status quo and they're comfortable. 00:31:03.080 --> 00:31:07.420 Now, whether they, they have a hard, hard about that or not, or they just are ignorant. 00:31:07.580 --> 00:31:08.400 I don't know, I'm not judging. 00:31:08.500 --> 00:31:15.580 I'm just saying that's the truth because the reason that happens, and I, I'm going to read something because I have it off to the side of it just for this moment. 00:31:16.220 --> 00:31:21.400 The scorecard of the Western church typically based on what is easily understandable and obviously measurable. 00:31:22.240 --> 00:31:24.780 Attendance, giving, volunteerism. 00:31:25.300 --> 00:31:34.620 These are visible and quantifiable so they easily become the low hanging fruit of determining that success, right, it's working, of a ministry or organization. 00:31:34.620 --> 00:31:39.780 But left unchecked, they also become the measure of pure success with church leaders, how big is your church? 00:31:40.040 --> 00:31:43.860 When you see two pastors at any conference I've ever been to, they walk up, so what are you guys running? 00:31:44.360 --> 00:31:45.000 What do you guys do? 00:31:45.100 --> 00:31:48.160 It's always, always this like, 100%. 00:31:48.160 --> 00:31:49.340 It just kills me. 00:31:49.860 --> 00:31:56.140 The easy three metrics are often generally codified into some alliterated version of faith, family, and finances, right? 00:31:56.440 --> 00:31:57.860 So how do you promote a volunteer? 00:31:58.360 --> 00:32:00.240 Well, faith, family, and finance. 00:32:00.580 --> 00:32:01.980 How do you validate those three? 00:32:02.460 --> 00:32:03.440 We check their finances. 00:32:03.960 --> 00:32:08.060 If they're given, they can, so really it's not faith, family, and finances, it's finances. 00:32:08.380 --> 00:32:09.620 How about their faith and family? 00:32:10.740 --> 00:32:12.740 Well, it's really hard to know that. 00:32:12.900 --> 00:32:13.920 You're right, it is. 00:32:14.120 --> 00:32:16.540 But they'll say faith, family, and finance. 00:32:16.680 --> 00:32:18.740 So in the digital world, what makes someone a good member? 00:32:19.200 --> 00:32:20.400 What makes someone a good member? 00:32:20.740 --> 00:32:21.040 That's true. 00:32:21.220 --> 00:32:26.300 What makes someone a good deacon or usher or parking lot breeder, right? 00:32:26.860 --> 00:32:30.600 Do you see the warm body or do you actually want someone who's living something out? 00:32:30.760 --> 00:32:31.920 And how do you validate that? 00:32:31.980 --> 00:32:33.360 The only way is through relationship. 00:32:33.360 --> 00:32:34.780 And people don't scale. 00:32:35.240 --> 00:32:37.960 Systems and processes scale, but people don't scale. 00:32:38.360 --> 00:32:48.180 So what you're talking about is having enough people with enough touch points, what I would call a span of care, that you have enough spans of cares that you are touching all the people. 00:32:48.180 --> 00:32:52.880 And it does roll up, and you do have this ability into it, but you don't have control. 00:32:54.020 --> 00:32:55.360 There's the big thing. 00:32:55.600 --> 00:33:01.040 Because, oh, gosh, I can't do that because then I wouldn't be the one making the decisions here. 00:33:01.700 --> 00:33:02.680 Well, here's the thing. 00:33:02.760 --> 00:33:07.800 When pressed, you get to this place where you say you're only trying to capture on one factor. 00:33:08.140 --> 00:33:09.140 So what makes a member? 00:33:09.460 --> 00:33:10.100 Somebody gives? 00:33:10.620 --> 00:33:16.120 It was one time, and I'm old enough to say this, that one of the churches in Dallas, Fort Worth, was listed as the largest church in America. 00:33:16.600 --> 00:33:22.640 And I went there on a weekend, and there were nowhere near the largest church in America kind of numbers. 00:33:22.700 --> 00:33:27.700 And what I found out was on their membership rolls, it was, what, 30,000 people way back in the day. 00:33:27.940 --> 00:33:29.300 And it was like that was the number one church. 00:33:29.500 --> 00:33:32.600 And I'm like, but that's not who's showing up, right? 00:33:32.840 --> 00:33:40.100 Maybe they're all giving, that's your determination of size, but, man, we've really just got the metrics back. 00:33:40.200 --> 00:33:45.600 We've got the lagging indicators wag the tail of the dog, right? 00:33:45.660 --> 00:33:48.400 The tail of lagging indicators is wag the dog of the church. 00:33:48.720 --> 00:33:50.480 And what we've got to get into, the leading indicators. 00:33:50.620 --> 00:33:53.120 The leading indicators are a lot harder, right? 00:33:53.280 --> 00:34:01.440 There's the things like, hey, what is the ratio of our volunteers to new members or new salvations? 00:34:01.440 --> 00:34:05.540 What is the number of people who said they would sign up for something in person if they show up? 00:34:05.800 --> 00:34:13.840 What is the number of new volunteers in our current pipeline that you've had that have been sitting there for more than 90 days and it's going up, but then because we haven't properly bedded them, right? 00:34:13.960 --> 00:34:19.040 Those leading indicators tell you way more about the church stuff than they do about the growth of something. 00:34:19.260 --> 00:34:22.660 And that to me is where we've got to stop looking at this as a numerical thing. 00:34:22.760 --> 00:34:28.120 There is quantitative data, sure, but there's quantitative insights, and that's relational. 00:34:28.460 --> 00:34:30.420 That's always going to be relational. 00:34:30.420 --> 00:34:34.440 And you cannot ever tell me that you need to know that number. 00:34:34.580 --> 00:34:37.700 Look, a thermometer will tell you what the temperature is outside. 00:34:37.900 --> 00:34:39.620 And if you need to know that, that's useful. 00:34:40.000 --> 00:34:41.320 How many people went to this thing? 00:34:41.420 --> 00:34:41.780 96. 00:34:42.320 --> 00:34:42.720 Awesome. 00:34:43.280 --> 00:34:44.760 Okay, here's the better question. 00:34:45.480 --> 00:34:49.360 How many people were supposed to go to that that said they were going to sign up that didn't show up? 00:34:50.440 --> 00:34:50.840 474. 00:34:51.480 --> 00:34:52.580 Well, that's a pretty poor ratio. 00:34:53.100 --> 00:34:54.260 So what happened to the rest of them? 00:34:54.420 --> 00:34:55.000 We don't know. 00:34:55.140 --> 00:34:55.820 Do you follow up? 00:34:55.920 --> 00:34:56.120 No. 00:34:57.300 --> 00:35:05.500 Well, that would probably be more interesting and more viable for actual ministry than just doing another event and having a similar poor ratio. 00:35:05.840 --> 00:35:09.180 Because that's just the privilege of people that, well, our open rates are low. 00:35:09.300 --> 00:35:10.440 Our collective rates are low. 00:35:11.000 --> 00:35:11.560 It's just what it is. 00:35:12.060 --> 00:35:13.600 But we know it's reaching people. 00:35:13.920 --> 00:35:14.760 No, it's not, actually. 00:35:14.940 --> 00:35:17.400 So are you willing to go back and do retargeting? 00:35:17.480 --> 00:35:20.880 Are you willing to go back and figure out where the missed need was, the opportunity? 00:35:21.120 --> 00:35:24.660 Are you putting systems in place not to measure, but to understand? 00:35:24.840 --> 00:35:30.160 Are you willing to move away from the thermometer and go to a barometer, which is how you predict the weather, not quick, right? 00:35:30.480 --> 00:35:32.000 There is a number on a barometer. 00:35:32.140 --> 00:35:35.660 It will tell you the air pressure, but what's important, the key is not the number. 00:35:35.960 --> 00:35:38.780 It is where is that number in relation to where it was an hour ago? 00:35:39.100 --> 00:35:40.900 What is the rate and direction of change? 00:35:41.140 --> 00:35:43.860 That is more like this, less like that. 00:35:43.860 --> 00:35:50.000 We need to be comfortable in that really gray area of we're looking for more like this and less like that. 00:35:50.240 --> 00:36:06.240 And we look for that over time again and again and again in ways that aren't easy to measure because we actually want to make an impact and make sure discipleship is happening so that the effort we're spending and the money that people are entrusting us to pour into this is actually becoming a verifiable ROM, return on ministry. 00:36:07.240 --> 00:36:07.720 All right. 00:36:07.800 --> 00:36:08.480 Offensive buzz. 00:36:08.640 --> 00:36:08.900 That's good. 00:36:09.160 --> 00:36:10.580 Is that a thing, ROM? 00:36:10.840 --> 00:36:11.960 I think that's the first time I've heard. 00:36:11.960 --> 00:36:12.420 I like that. 00:36:12.920 --> 00:36:17.160 Yeah, that was from like 1998 when I taught in the conference, so it's old. 00:36:18.140 --> 00:36:19.280 Man, let's bring it back. 00:36:19.900 --> 00:36:23.540 Like, I think I was like in college, so congratulations. 00:36:24.840 --> 00:36:25.600 That's good stuff. 00:36:25.840 --> 00:36:27.040 I may have been at that conference. 00:36:27.140 --> 00:36:27.780 I'm not sure. 00:36:28.240 --> 00:36:29.800 Here's the problem of where we are. 00:36:29.860 --> 00:36:41.980 We've just spent a good chunk of time having a theoretical conversation that I think was good, but like the guy sitting at his church and he's like, okay, I'm trying to create this discipleship strategy. 00:36:41.980 --> 00:36:46.740 I understand the power of online to do this, but leadership doesn't. 00:36:46.800 --> 00:36:47.600 They don't see it. 00:36:47.660 --> 00:36:48.500 They don't agree. 00:36:50.080 --> 00:36:52.820 It's not – we really can't do two separate things. 00:36:52.960 --> 00:36:53.760 It needs to be one. 00:36:54.440 --> 00:37:02.520 I want to end on some sort of practical things, application, something that's like, okay, we just fired this guy up. 00:37:02.720 --> 00:37:10.740 He realizes he needs to do all this stuff, and he's like four totem poles down from the top, and what can he do? 00:37:11.260 --> 00:37:19.020 What are good baby steps for somebody that's at this level to try to move in the right direction? 00:37:19.620 --> 00:37:21.160 Either you guys want to breathe on that? 00:37:22.600 --> 00:37:32.380 I think Anthony did a great job of pointing out that you don't have to get so caught up in the tag of membership or in the tag of the polity side to begin discipling somebody right where they're at. 00:37:32.880 --> 00:37:43.620 So if you've already got a discipleship strategy at your church that's working and you've got people that are meeting together digitally, start where you're at and start discipling them, and don't worry about getting caught up in the tag of whether or not they're a member. 00:37:44.980 --> 00:37:55.800 Start where you're at right now, and don't allow that to be your focus or driver, just your role and responsibility, and I think we can all agree on this, it's not really to make members, it's to make disciples, right? 00:37:55.920 --> 00:38:08.520 So as you do that, start where you're at, start discipling them, and start unleashing them to do the work of the ministry, and then as your leadership is asking questions, let them know, hey, listen, these folks are out here doing the work of the ministry, man. 00:38:09.080 --> 00:38:17.840 Whether or not they have a say in our church or the polity side or whatever else, it's really inconsequential compared to the amount of ministry that they're doing. 00:38:18.320 --> 00:38:19.520 Anthony, do you want to weigh in on that? 00:38:21.920 --> 00:38:22.320 Practical. 00:38:22.720 --> 00:38:29.340 So here's what I would say to that person who's feeling very conflicted, like, well, I don't have the authority to do everything with these guys we're talking about today. 00:38:30.020 --> 00:38:30.740 Here's the thing. 00:38:30.740 --> 00:38:40.280 The local church is at a crossroads and has the opportunity to either facilitate, organize, and empower life change, or settle for systemic integrity. 00:38:41.960 --> 00:38:44.100 To settle is to be a part of the problem. 00:38:44.420 --> 00:38:48.320 To accept the challenge of transformational change is the narrow path. 00:38:49.080 --> 00:38:52.160 The opposite of courage is not cowardice, it's conformity. 00:38:52.640 --> 00:38:54.880 Even a dead fish goes with the flock. 00:38:55.480 --> 00:39:07.640 So if that scares you, then you probably are not at a place where it's ever going to change, or you're going to have to be the catalyst to change, then you have to have the wisdom and discernment to understand that. 00:39:07.980 --> 00:39:13.540 Because I would not waste my life and my energies trying to go with the flow that's dead. 00:39:13.920 --> 00:39:25.680 I would leave the stream and go do something on somewhere else if it really meant I either have to conform, because we're not willing to change, we're not willing to say, where do we add the most value to people online? 00:39:26.420 --> 00:39:29.060 What's the difference between our pixel model and the physical model? 00:39:29.480 --> 00:39:29.620 Right? 00:39:29.900 --> 00:39:37.920 If we can't ask those questions, if we can't deconstruct that in a healthy way, and it is confrontational, it just doesn't have to be mean. 00:39:38.860 --> 00:39:40.900 Confrontation is not bad, it's healthy. 00:39:41.380 --> 00:39:43.400 It says why and why not, what if. 00:39:43.880 --> 00:39:45.840 And here's a model, here's what we're understanding. 00:39:46.240 --> 00:39:57.440 This would be far more valuable, have a far greater impact on the way we resource people, and be a much better return on ministry, investment, than anything else we're doing in the physical church. 00:39:57.840 --> 00:39:59.380 We see this as imperative. 00:40:00.220 --> 00:40:03.540 Do you see that, and can I help you get there? 00:40:03.880 --> 00:40:07.680 And if the answer is no, you have to ask God if your time there is done. 00:40:11.020 --> 00:40:11.460 Wow. 00:40:12.620 --> 00:40:14.760 Even a dead fish goes with the flow. 00:40:15.340 --> 00:40:15.740 I love that. 00:40:16.260 --> 00:40:17.460 Yeah, I'm going to adopt that. 00:40:18.020 --> 00:40:20.600 I'll totally give you credit, Anthony, whenever I say it. 00:40:20.820 --> 00:40:27.700 But I have just a running joke of whether a quote's tattoo worthy or not, like would I tattoo that on my body? 00:40:28.100 --> 00:40:29.760 That's on the list of tattoo worthy. 00:40:30.320 --> 00:40:33.100 My wife's not going to let it happen, so it'll never happen. 00:40:33.460 --> 00:40:35.480 I'll never tattoo your name on my body, Anthony. 00:40:35.500 --> 00:40:36.360 I just want to let you know. 00:40:36.960 --> 00:40:40.920 But I would actually consider it, because that's a really good thing. 00:40:40.920 --> 00:40:41.580 There you go. 00:40:42.120 --> 00:40:42.400 Wow. 00:40:43.120 --> 00:40:55.920 Hey, church person out there, and we've talked about this in the past, but while you're creating disciples, while your disciples are creating disciples, celebrate that. 00:40:56.180 --> 00:40:57.240 Share that story. 00:40:57.780 --> 00:41:02.340 Share the story of how you're empowering people to do ministry. 00:41:02.500 --> 00:41:03.860 Not that you did the ministry. 00:41:03.860 --> 00:41:13.320 Don't claim the glory for yourself, but how you've been able to reproduce and share the gospel in a way that others have picked it up and run with it as well. 00:41:13.780 --> 00:41:21.440 There's some scary things coming down the road, biblically, if we look at the Bible in context of what church online can be a solution for. 00:41:21.820 --> 00:41:35.300 And the more that we move towards creating disciples, the more that we move away from this idea of having these mega buildings that cost a ton of money in context of tax, property tax, maintenance, things like that. 00:41:35.780 --> 00:41:45.320 On the road that we're on, if we look at the Bible and what Revelation says, we're not going to be able to have these landmarks in place across our property. 00:41:45.320 --> 00:42:05.140 And the more that we're able across our country, and the more that we're able to not depend on these things to impact lives and to create disciples and to make disciples and to make disciples and make disciples, we need to change our business model. 00:42:05.660 --> 00:42:08.640 What we're doing is not going to work long term. 00:42:09.240 --> 00:42:19.020 And so celebrate these stories, share these things, share how it's happening, encourage others, one person at a time, and help your leadership see that. 00:42:19.020 --> 00:42:20.500 It's not a quick battle. 00:42:20.640 --> 00:42:25.400 It's not something that's going to happen overnight, but it does happen. 00:42:25.660 --> 00:42:28.660 And there are churches that are successful doing that. 00:42:28.820 --> 00:42:31.500 So Pontius will often say, healthy things grow. 00:42:31.620 --> 00:42:32.080 Here's the thing. 00:42:32.180 --> 00:42:32.400 Yes. 00:42:32.760 --> 00:42:35.860 Make sure your emphasis is on the right syllable, right? 00:42:36.180 --> 00:42:37.960 Healthy things grow. 00:42:38.880 --> 00:42:39.820 Cancer grows too. 00:42:40.220 --> 00:42:44.340 So up into the right lagging indicator metrics are not a sufficient reason to claim success. 00:42:44.720 --> 00:42:47.600 High attendance is not a reason to claim success. 00:42:48.060 --> 00:42:53.880 Healthy growth requires discipleship because it's sustainable by everyone, not really with or on the platform. 00:42:54.140 --> 00:42:58.140 Plus, it's the actual mandate, not really that, nice to have, but have you seen our numbers? 00:42:58.580 --> 00:43:03.320 No, go and make disciples is a directive for growth, not growth as a success. 00:43:04.400 --> 00:43:06.240 Ray, questions, thoughts? 00:43:06.400 --> 00:43:07.260 Anthony, thank you for that. 00:43:07.380 --> 00:43:08.440 Ray, anything as we're landing? 00:43:09.480 --> 00:43:09.800 Yeah. 00:43:09.960 --> 00:43:21.640 For those of you who are still struggling through whether or not your church should be membership and stuff and whether or not how the biblical stuff and all that work out about it, I encourage you to take a gander at what Anthony was talking about. 00:43:21.740 --> 00:43:23.700 Are you really more concerned about polity? 00:43:24.080 --> 00:43:28.380 Are you really concerned about, well, what are we unleashing on the world in terms of disciples? 00:43:28.740 --> 00:43:29.760 Take a look at that. 00:43:29.760 --> 00:43:38.480 Do some hardcore wrestling with it prayerfully, like with your pastoral team, and really have some hard, honest conversations around that because churches today are still struggling through that. 00:43:38.800 --> 00:43:39.960 You're not alone in that struggle. 00:43:40.540 --> 00:43:41.920 Hey, thanks, Ray, for that. 00:43:42.020 --> 00:43:44.580 Anthony, 20, 30 seconds, landing the plane. 00:43:44.660 --> 00:43:45.100 What do you got? 00:43:46.600 --> 00:43:49.920 Mathematician and statistician George Box has a phrase that fits you. 00:43:50.520 --> 00:43:53.560 All models are wrong, but some are useful. 00:43:54.100 --> 00:43:55.060 So go make disciples. 00:43:55.300 --> 00:43:58.480 And if that means members, great, but don't make it a requirement. 00:43:59.800 --> 00:43:59.980 Wow. 00:44:00.800 --> 00:44:01.040 That's good. 00:44:01.280 --> 00:44:01.640 Church. 00:44:01.840 --> 00:44:02.940 That was so good. 00:44:03.020 --> 00:44:03.280 Church. 00:44:03.360 --> 00:44:06.900 Last I checked, membership's not listed in the Bible. 00:44:07.080 --> 00:44:12.460 I don't think it talks about membership, but it does talk about making disciples. 00:44:13.000 --> 00:44:23.300 And so Church Online, people focusing in that realm, go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all the commands I have given you. 00:44:23.680 --> 00:44:25.820 I'm pretty sure that's verbatim. 00:44:26.340 --> 00:44:28.580 Maybe that's NIV 1984, but it's close. 00:44:29.000 --> 00:44:31.140 Hey, so thank you for that. 00:44:31.260 --> 00:44:34.700 Anthony, appreciate you coming in and jumping on this. 00:44:34.740 --> 00:44:35.920 It's been a great podcast. 00:44:36.920 --> 00:44:39.840 Ray, once again, man, love having you on. 00:44:40.380 --> 00:44:41.140 My name is Jeff. 00:44:41.220 --> 00:44:42.580 This has been the Church Digital Podcast. 00:44:43.320 --> 00:44:44.080 Appreciate you. 00:44:44.440 --> 00:44:51.140 Listening audience out there and looking forward to letting you hear us next time here on the Church Digital Podcast. 00:44:51.320 --> 00:44:51.780 Y'all have a good day.