WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:03.800 Welcome to the Church Digital Podcast, powered by Stadia Church Planting. 00:00:04.440 --> 00:00:08.520 Through this podcast, learn about how God is using technology and innovation 00:00:08.520 --> 00:00:11.580 in digital and digital environments around the world. 00:00:12.080 --> 00:00:16.000 Our goal? To help churches like yours learn to be the church digitally. 00:00:16.640 --> 00:00:21.600 Our heart? That churches like yours will discover a newfound focus on disciple-making 00:00:21.600 --> 00:00:23.620 that will revolutionize your church. 00:00:24.120 --> 00:00:26.660 And now, your host, here's Jeff Reed. 00:00:27.020 --> 00:00:31.420 Well, we are continuing Season 2 on Strong with the Church Digital Podcast. 00:00:31.560 --> 00:00:32.240 Hey, it's Jeff here. 00:00:32.640 --> 00:00:35.860 Once again, all of this is powered by Stadia Church Planting. 00:00:36.080 --> 00:00:38.620 And Stadia Church Planting, the heart of what Stadia is, 00:00:38.820 --> 00:00:42.340 we're going to definitely get into in this episode. 00:00:42.460 --> 00:00:45.900 By the way, here with Season 2, we are talking about change. 00:00:46.100 --> 00:00:47.280 We're talking about innovation. 00:00:47.380 --> 00:00:51.020 We're talking about people that are thinking outside of the box 00:00:51.020 --> 00:00:53.240 and are continuing to and celebrating that. 00:00:53.240 --> 00:00:57.920 And so, this podcast, this is not a new idea, to be honest, 00:00:58.040 --> 00:01:02.180 but we are seeing more and more of a trend in recent weeks and months 00:01:02.180 --> 00:01:07.000 where people are needing, are leaning on some of these ideas more today 00:01:07.000 --> 00:01:12.960 than maybe they were in the weeks and months, even pre-COVID in that season. 00:01:13.100 --> 00:01:13.960 So, here we are. 00:01:14.080 --> 00:01:18.840 We are talking about this idea of bivocational or co-vocational ministry. 00:01:18.840 --> 00:01:26.620 Essentially, making funding, making your salary, making your income not from the church. 00:01:27.040 --> 00:01:29.720 Now, established church people, you're freaking out right now 00:01:29.720 --> 00:01:34.760 because your income has most likely come from the church for your entire lifespan. 00:01:34.900 --> 00:01:37.740 For me, as well, as I worked with established churches. 00:01:38.180 --> 00:01:42.640 But what's fascinating to me is I talk with digital-only church planters in this season. 00:01:43.360 --> 00:01:48.360 By far, the majority are interested in this bivocational, co-vocational model. 00:01:48.600 --> 00:01:51.400 Hey, Jeff, I don't want the church to make my income. 00:01:51.580 --> 00:01:52.660 I want to keep my job. 00:01:52.860 --> 00:01:55.800 I just want to do ministry outside of my job. 00:01:55.900 --> 00:02:00.080 Can you help me figure that piece out in a digital church? 00:02:00.080 --> 00:02:05.840 And so, we wanted to really start to explore more of what this bivocational or co-vocational, 00:02:05.920 --> 00:02:09.420 maybe even what are the differences between those two words and what does that look like? 00:02:09.780 --> 00:02:14.980 And so, what we wanted to do with Tira Stadia is we wanted to bring in a conversation with a bivocational planter. 00:02:15.040 --> 00:02:17.200 And we didn't have to look very far. 00:02:17.340 --> 00:02:19.320 We found Sam Chaco. 00:02:19.680 --> 00:02:22.420 Sam's actually working with Stadia right now. 00:02:22.480 --> 00:02:28.280 He's one of the project managers that helps church planters execute and start their church. 00:02:28.280 --> 00:02:33.020 So, Sam knows the idea of church planting very well. 00:02:33.060 --> 00:02:38.180 As a matter of fact, he tells his story of how he's been planting and starting and running a church, 00:02:38.400 --> 00:02:47.360 even being bivocational for years, making his salary, supplying his living outside of the church ministry that he's doing. 00:02:47.540 --> 00:02:53.800 So, some phenomenal stories from him, a phenomenal perspective that honestly, even if you're not a church planter, 00:02:54.220 --> 00:02:55.460 don't skip this podcast. 00:02:56.300 --> 00:02:57.260 Listen to it. 00:02:57.340 --> 00:02:58.300 Establish church people. 00:02:58.600 --> 00:03:01.940 There are things that you need to take away from this conversation. 00:03:02.280 --> 00:03:03.620 So, don't run away. 00:03:04.020 --> 00:03:05.440 Don't go listen to something else. 00:03:05.440 --> 00:03:10.740 Listen to this and find these nuggets that are going to be coming through this conversation. 00:03:11.260 --> 00:03:15.940 So, for the conversation, I'll bring in myself, Jeff with the Church Digital, of course, Stadia Church Planting, 00:03:16.080 --> 00:03:23.460 and my friend Sam Chaco from Stadia Church Planting into this conversation where we're talking about bivocational, 00:03:23.600 --> 00:03:27.600 co-vocational, and a not-so-new approach to funding ministry. 00:03:28.000 --> 00:03:28.540 Okay, everybody. 00:03:28.840 --> 00:03:29.200 Here you go. 00:03:29.460 --> 00:03:30.560 Tell me your ministry story. 00:03:30.780 --> 00:03:31.260 Yeah. 00:03:31.740 --> 00:03:36.440 So, I am son and a grandson of pastors. 00:03:36.980 --> 00:03:40.040 Moms and dads, both grandparents were pastors. 00:03:40.160 --> 00:03:40.880 Dad was a pastor. 00:03:41.020 --> 00:03:44.800 Dad was a bivocational pastor for over 40 years. 00:03:45.220 --> 00:03:49.440 He immigrated from India, worked in a factory, served in the church. 00:03:50.420 --> 00:03:54.780 I entered into ministry not thinking I'd ever be a pastor. 00:03:55.460 --> 00:04:01.660 Serious events, that's another whole long story of Asian-American ministry context, 00:04:01.660 --> 00:04:06.400 but ended up planting a church where we were not expecting to plant a church. 00:04:06.540 --> 00:04:10.420 Thought we had 150 people to show up for launch service. 00:04:10.780 --> 00:04:17.720 We had a lot of people attacking us two weeks before, and the week that we launched, we had 20 people. 00:04:17.980 --> 00:04:31.340 So, I realized that full-time ministry was not going to be in my near future, so I continued working as an accountant for an organization called Marketplace Chaplains for the last 15 years. 00:04:31.760 --> 00:04:32.640 Led the church. 00:04:32.720 --> 00:04:48.240 The church has grown now to about 150 again, but we have over 30 ethnic groups in our church community, which is just an incredible community of faith, and I've been doing it for 10 years as a church plant. 00:04:48.500 --> 00:04:55.380 And God has just been incredibly faithful, good there, and I've been doing bivocational the entire time. 00:04:55.880 --> 00:05:05.480 I just recently joined the staff at Stadia in June, serving as a project manager, so I get to walk alongside church planters in their church planting journey. 00:05:05.660 --> 00:05:06.960 And so, I'm excited to be here. 00:05:07.280 --> 00:05:08.020 That's awesome. 00:05:08.160 --> 00:05:13.120 Yeah, it's great to have you on the team here with Stadia and love that insight. 00:05:13.600 --> 00:05:18.640 So, your church, you've been, you launched 10 years ago, a decade ago. 00:05:18.940 --> 00:05:20.600 And so, I'm just curious. 00:05:20.720 --> 00:05:22.580 Like, how long do you consider yourself a church plant? 00:05:22.640 --> 00:05:24.760 At what point is a church plant a church? 00:05:24.900 --> 00:05:28.380 Like, what's, I work for a church planting organization, I should probably know that. 00:05:28.500 --> 00:05:31.220 Like, at what point do you become just a church? 00:05:31.480 --> 00:05:39.120 You know, I think it's when we start getting to the point where we are getting involved in other church plants. 00:05:39.280 --> 00:05:43.220 I think other, until then, we're almost like, we're trying to grow. 00:05:44.180 --> 00:05:49.200 But I think real growth and multiplication is when you're seeing other churches come birth out of you. 00:05:49.640 --> 00:05:58.060 Our church, over the last six years, has had the opportunity to partner with seven other church plants around the world. 00:05:58.720 --> 00:06:05.520 And the unique story of our church is we have 13 people that were on leadership at our church bivocationally 00:06:05.520 --> 00:06:12.420 that have either planted or on staff at big churches now all over the U.S., all over the world. 00:06:12.620 --> 00:06:17.420 And so, really being intentional of seeing people being sent out. 00:06:18.280 --> 00:06:18.600 And so, yeah. 00:06:18.600 --> 00:06:19.720 That's awesome. 00:06:20.100 --> 00:06:22.920 So, you've used this word bivocational two or three times. 00:06:23.260 --> 00:06:28.120 And for a lot of our audience out there, they don't know what the word means. 00:06:28.300 --> 00:06:34.620 And I'll be honest, I don't know that I even truly understood bivocational or co-vocational until I started working for Stadia. 00:06:35.000 --> 00:06:36.980 So, describe here a little bit. 00:06:37.040 --> 00:06:39.400 Help us understand, what is this bivocational? 00:06:39.720 --> 00:06:42.720 And in context with that, what is co-vocational? 00:06:42.720 --> 00:06:59.480 Yeah, I think bivocational is when you know God is calling you to serve in the local church or ministry, but at the same time, your source of income, your finances are coming through a different means. 00:06:59.620 --> 00:07:00.660 So, you're working somewhere. 00:07:00.660 --> 00:07:06.740 So, bivocational, now, the difference between bivocational, co-vocational, I've heard so many different terms. 00:07:07.240 --> 00:07:15.580 I think the big difference I've heard is bivocational is you're doing a job that's completely different from the ministry, right? 00:07:15.580 --> 00:07:22.460 So, I'm coming from Marketplace Ministries, even though it was a ministry, I was doing, I was in the accounting department there. 00:07:22.620 --> 00:07:24.120 It was not ministry related. 00:07:24.880 --> 00:07:30.460 It was a quiet, safe place for me to rest often because ministry was exhausting. 00:07:31.340 --> 00:07:44.160 And now, I think I've transitioned more into co-vocational ministry where what I do is serving alongside the church, seeing other churches being planted while still serving my local church as well as the lead pastor. 00:07:44.360 --> 00:07:47.420 And so, I think that's, I think, the main difference between the two. 00:07:47.860 --> 00:07:55.700 But at the same, at the end of the day, both are, your income is coming from a different source other than your local church. 00:07:56.140 --> 00:07:56.720 It's funny. 00:07:56.820 --> 00:08:07.040 I've had a friend of mine here in Miami, a mentor who's a small church pastor, honestly, probably about the same size church that what you're talking about, Sam, with yours. 00:08:07.740 --> 00:08:12.200 And he's bivo as well, where he has a job outside of the church. 00:08:12.200 --> 00:08:16.020 And this is a guy that used to be a full-time guy on church staff. 00:08:16.120 --> 00:08:18.640 And with planting this church, just said, hey, you know what? 00:08:18.660 --> 00:08:22.500 I'm going to create a second revenue stream for my life outside of the church. 00:08:22.720 --> 00:08:42.780 And he's just told me time and time again how much more fun it is doing ministry when you're able to, you know, be more free financially to help others in that instead of trying to worry about that economy strain of trying to pull and manufacture the money for your, you know, livelihood. 00:08:43.180 --> 00:08:49.420 Did you have a ministry life before you planted the church? 00:08:49.580 --> 00:09:01.960 Like maybe talk to me a little bit here off the differences in your life of being a full-time guy versus being a bivo person and maybe how that's freeing for you as the church. 00:09:01.960 --> 00:09:11.700 So once I moved to Dallas, I had started working at a Christian counseling center and then transitioned into the accounting department. 00:09:11.800 --> 00:09:13.360 So I've always been bivocational. 00:09:14.280 --> 00:09:19.640 And we're honestly at the point today where I could be full-time at the church if I wanted. 00:09:19.820 --> 00:09:24.140 We are financially there and we've prayed about it often. 00:09:24.340 --> 00:09:26.400 God, you know, we just haven't felt like God was leading. 00:09:26.820 --> 00:09:37.020 And I think the beauty of doing the bivocational is I think even in the church, others have seen, hey, Sam is serving the church. 00:09:37.080 --> 00:09:37.920 He's working full-time. 00:09:38.000 --> 00:09:38.940 He's taking care of his family. 00:09:39.480 --> 00:09:40.840 We can get involved as well. 00:09:40.840 --> 00:09:48.760 So the opportunity to see others come involved and join and be part and serve has been super exciting. 00:09:49.060 --> 00:10:04.920 And I think to your point of your friend who's the bivocational pastor, our church, this past year we were able to eliminate $2.5 million worth of debt in Dallas County because our folks were able to give funds to be able to do that. 00:10:04.920 --> 00:10:10.800 So people got a letter in the mail around Christmas time saying, hey, your medical debt has been completely erased. 00:10:10.940 --> 00:10:13.760 We've been able to support seven church plants. 00:10:13.920 --> 00:10:32.780 We've been able to do so many outreaches and things in the community where funds that could have gone for staffing has intentionally gone out to be a blessing in the community and the people around us where if at the size of the church we were, if I was full-time, that would have been much more limited. 00:10:32.780 --> 00:10:47.300 But because God has given me the opportunity to work with stadiums and work with marketplace chaplains before, there was more funds available to do some of these other things that have had major impact in our community without a strain on the finance of our church for the size that we are. 00:10:47.620 --> 00:10:53.160 Yeah, I mean, it's going to be a strain economically in the future for the church. 00:10:53.320 --> 00:11:06.520 I'm even reminded 2020 was, and I don't know that I've ever said this on the podcast, but 2020 was the largest year for giving to nonprofits, donations to nonprofits in the history of the United States. 00:11:07.620 --> 00:11:10.640 Yet, you know, how much money came to the church? 00:11:10.780 --> 00:11:11.640 Churches are struggling. 00:11:12.000 --> 00:11:14.140 It's not that people don't have the money. 00:11:14.680 --> 00:11:18.340 It's that that money is not ending up in the church. 00:11:18.900 --> 00:11:28.520 And so thinking different, you know, economical models, doing things like bivocational, co-vocational, even things like micro businesses and things like that. 00:11:28.520 --> 00:11:35.500 We've done podcasts on that previously, but love this idea of, hey, my salary, I'm not taking it from the church. 00:11:35.620 --> 00:11:40.280 I'm not a professional Christian, even to the point of, Sam, I love what you're saying. 00:11:40.680 --> 00:11:50.760 Hey, instead of me coming on full time with that salary, let's disperse more of this responsibility among others and start to raise them up to the higher level. 00:11:50.760 --> 00:12:02.700 Instead of me, you know, I've worked in positions where they've used that phrase, the professional Christian, the paid staff person, you know, is responsible for carrying all of that weight. 00:12:03.720 --> 00:12:08.540 Now, what's interesting to me, Sam, is you've got this, I mean, you even alluded to it a little bit earlier. 00:12:08.540 --> 00:12:22.160 It's like, so you're a full time job, full time ministry, you know, and often ministry is above and beyond full time, you know, wife, kids, life, like those are a lot of plates that you're spinning. 00:12:22.300 --> 00:12:24.880 How are you managing this time? 00:12:25.060 --> 00:12:28.620 How are you, you know, not burning yourself out? 00:12:28.620 --> 00:12:36.400 Yeah, I think the best advice I got early on was, if it's important to you, you put it on the calendar, right? 00:12:36.460 --> 00:12:41.700 And so I've made sure things are blocked off. 00:12:41.780 --> 00:12:43.340 Evenings are blocked off for family. 00:12:44.340 --> 00:12:47.600 Sabbath for me is Friday from 6 till Saturday at 6. 00:12:47.920 --> 00:12:49.520 That's blocked off on the calendar. 00:12:50.300 --> 00:12:58.520 And if by chance I have to do a wedding or something on a Saturday, and I know in advance, I make sure that Sunday someone else is preaching for me at church. 00:12:58.640 --> 00:13:02.120 So my family is not losing my time with me during that week. 00:13:02.120 --> 00:13:16.300 And so just really being intentional, really being disciplined of saying, hey, there are things that if I'm not disciplined, I will waste my time doing things that are not important, not necessary. 00:13:16.920 --> 00:13:27.040 And so just really using that calendar to my advantage of, hey, what's important, block it off, make sure that's on the calendar so that nothing else can take that place. 00:13:27.980 --> 00:13:30.060 Saturday at 6 is when your Sabbath ends. 00:13:30.100 --> 00:13:32.260 Is that when you start prepping for Sunday? 00:13:32.860 --> 00:13:35.200 I'm usually prepping during the week. 00:13:36.160 --> 00:13:43.260 And then Saturday at 6 is when I'm 6, 7 is when I'm going through sermon again, just making sure everything is set, ready to go. 00:13:44.080 --> 00:13:45.700 And usually it's not that long. 00:13:46.320 --> 00:13:48.600 Friday nights for us is just family time. 00:13:48.760 --> 00:13:50.120 We are tech-free. 00:13:50.380 --> 00:13:58.520 I mean, we're just hanging out with the kids, watching movies, whatever, at home, but being intentional of saying, hey, that's our family time. 00:13:58.580 --> 00:14:00.060 Nothing else is going to disrupt that. 00:14:00.420 --> 00:14:01.420 I love that. 00:14:01.540 --> 00:14:02.940 Tech-free Friday nights. 00:14:03.060 --> 00:14:04.600 I may need to implement that. 00:14:05.300 --> 00:14:07.380 Sometimes my kids, I'll be confession hour here. 00:14:07.460 --> 00:14:09.040 Sometimes my kids take away my phone. 00:14:09.560 --> 00:14:10.860 They're like, daddy, you're done with this. 00:14:10.960 --> 00:14:12.580 And then they'll go hide it for a couple hours. 00:14:12.660 --> 00:14:14.340 My kids will probably do the same with me. 00:14:15.720 --> 00:14:18.500 Hey, so as you're, I mean, we talked about this. 00:14:18.660 --> 00:14:29.280 As you're distributing some of the responsibilities out to others and realizing that you have limitations, what does it look like to build a team centered around this? 00:14:29.360 --> 00:14:32.160 Like, how do you recruit, develop, empower? 00:14:32.380 --> 00:14:33.840 What does building this team look like? 00:14:34.040 --> 00:14:46.900 Yeah, so we took the philosophy that if we tell someone, if we assign someone a role, we tell them right away, hey, you're not earning our trust when we give you this assignment. 00:14:47.000 --> 00:14:47.880 You have our trust. 00:14:48.220 --> 00:14:50.320 You can lose trust, but you don't have to earn it. 00:14:50.880 --> 00:14:52.120 Own this ministry. 00:14:52.320 --> 00:14:53.140 Own this responsibility. 00:14:53.400 --> 00:14:53.920 Run with it. 00:14:54.300 --> 00:15:00.980 My role is to make sure I'm checking in on you as often as possible to make sure you're doing well. 00:15:01.420 --> 00:15:02.960 Is there anything you need from me? 00:15:03.840 --> 00:15:05.620 And how do I help you grow, right? 00:15:05.680 --> 00:15:11.280 And so really, I invest into my key leaders, and they're investing into their team leaders, right? 00:15:11.280 --> 00:15:22.360 And I said this earlier, but in 10 years, we've been able to send off 13 different people to go either on the mission field or serve our local church, another church, or plant a church. 00:15:23.040 --> 00:15:32.540 These are guys and girls who I've just spent time with, invested in, and then they came to a point where they're flourishing and God opened other doors for them. 00:15:33.720 --> 00:15:43.140 The analogy that I use, in Dallas, across the street from each other, there is a hospital that's almost anyone and everyone can go. 00:15:43.420 --> 00:15:45.400 It's connected to university. 00:15:45.560 --> 00:15:47.460 There's university students that are serving there. 00:15:47.800 --> 00:15:50.700 And across the street from that, there is this heart hospital. 00:15:51.180 --> 00:15:52.580 It's a specialty hospital, right? 00:15:52.660 --> 00:15:55.140 It's only the best of the best are serving there. 00:15:55.600 --> 00:15:58.380 So there's this training hospital, and there's a specialty hospital. 00:15:58.840 --> 00:16:01.080 For us, Law City has always been like a training church. 00:16:01.080 --> 00:16:01.700 You're going to come. 00:16:02.160 --> 00:16:02.740 You're going to learn. 00:16:02.860 --> 00:16:03.500 You're going to grow. 00:16:04.200 --> 00:16:05.440 You want to learn how to preach? 00:16:05.660 --> 00:16:07.100 We'll do a preaching cohort for you. 00:16:07.240 --> 00:16:10.300 But you're going to preach on Sunday morning so that you have experience. 00:16:10.740 --> 00:16:13.160 And it doesn't matter to me if you've been in seminary or not. 00:16:14.060 --> 00:16:15.280 You're going to walk with me. 00:16:15.480 --> 00:16:16.260 We're going to learn. 00:16:16.680 --> 00:16:17.380 You're going to serve. 00:16:18.140 --> 00:16:21.220 And then maybe you end up at a specialty church. 00:16:21.300 --> 00:16:22.480 We're only the best of the best serve. 00:16:22.560 --> 00:16:26.880 But this is where we really want to see you flourish, grow, and use your opportunities. 00:16:26.880 --> 00:16:30.300 Because we're small enough where if you make mistakes, you're going to get grace. 00:16:30.300 --> 00:16:31.100 You're going to get love. 00:16:31.520 --> 00:16:34.820 But we really want to see you thrive and grow and flourish in that. 00:16:34.980 --> 00:16:37.420 So that's the analogy we've taken as a church. 00:16:37.600 --> 00:16:39.320 And we're just a training church. 00:16:39.640 --> 00:16:40.680 God brings us people. 00:16:40.960 --> 00:16:41.760 We train them. 00:16:41.840 --> 00:16:42.460 We equip them. 00:16:42.460 --> 00:16:43.660 And we send them off. 00:16:44.240 --> 00:16:48.280 We also happen to be a mile away from a major university in the community. 00:16:48.280 --> 00:16:49.400 So we have a lot of students. 00:16:49.560 --> 00:16:53.340 And we realized years ago that they're only going to be here for a season. 00:16:53.540 --> 00:16:55.600 They're here for three, four years. 00:16:56.120 --> 00:17:01.740 And so we could either take them lightly or we could say, hey, we've got three, four years 00:17:01.740 --> 00:17:02.720 to pour into these people. 00:17:02.740 --> 00:17:05.720 Because then wherever they go, they're taking the gospel with them. 00:17:05.720 --> 00:17:10.540 And so giving them opportunities to serve, giving them opportunities to engage on the worship 00:17:10.540 --> 00:17:13.560 team or wherever they want to serve. 00:17:14.000 --> 00:17:15.200 And then when they're going, they're going. 00:17:15.460 --> 00:17:17.940 And so really being intentional on that. 00:17:18.460 --> 00:17:19.120 That's beautiful. 00:17:19.860 --> 00:17:25.620 You know, one of the within digital churches, digital only expressions of church like Stadia, 00:17:25.740 --> 00:17:28.140 we work with digital churches. 00:17:28.140 --> 00:17:33.460 And there's with the maybe 150 conversations that I've had since I've started working with 00:17:33.460 --> 00:17:36.940 Stadia with people that are interested in planning a digital church. 00:17:37.520 --> 00:17:44.160 I would say probably 75% of those conversations are centered around some level of Bible Kobo, 00:17:44.160 --> 00:17:51.040 where they're not looking for the digital church to supply their income. 00:17:51.180 --> 00:17:52.000 Now, some are. 00:17:52.440 --> 00:17:55.600 And either way, like Stadia is helping with that. 00:17:55.740 --> 00:18:01.360 But it's interesting to me that, you know, one guy is a CTO, a chief technical officer 00:18:01.360 --> 00:18:03.680 for a Fortune 500 company who lived in Canada. 00:18:04.620 --> 00:18:08.380 And he called me up, you know, connected with me wanting to plan a digital church. 00:18:08.720 --> 00:18:14.660 And his quote was to me was, Jeff, I'm not interested in my church paying my salary. 00:18:15.220 --> 00:18:18.100 This corporation's paying this huge salary to me. 00:18:18.120 --> 00:18:18.960 I don't want to give that up. 00:18:18.960 --> 00:18:24.520 I want to figure out how to do ministry and do my job. 00:18:24.520 --> 00:18:30.960 And what you're talking about, dispersing that out into others and building and releasing. 00:18:31.240 --> 00:18:32.800 Like, I love that attitude. 00:18:32.940 --> 00:18:34.180 I love that approach. 00:18:35.280 --> 00:18:40.120 What are the things in your church, even when I'm looking at this CTO friend, 00:18:40.780 --> 00:18:47.360 like, what are the things as a pastor that you need to keep versus maybe what are the things 00:18:47.360 --> 00:18:52.860 that people think you need to keep that you're very quick to release and let others do? 00:18:53.180 --> 00:18:53.340 Yeah. 00:18:53.440 --> 00:18:58.160 So I think, for me, vision is, that's mine, right? 00:18:58.220 --> 00:19:02.880 And that's me and the elders that are serving alongside of me that we own. 00:19:04.340 --> 00:19:09.840 The content of what's being communicated, preached is mine. 00:19:09.920 --> 00:19:16.840 But we have said, hey, some of you, our job is not to tell you to fall in line with the vision of the church. 00:19:17.120 --> 00:19:20.440 Our job is to empower you to do the things that God's called you to do. 00:19:21.500 --> 00:19:26.760 I mean, and so we've had folks, give you an example, 10 years ago, one of the guys was like, 00:19:26.820 --> 00:19:31.700 hey, there's an apartment community right near our house, right near our church that has a ton of teenagers. 00:19:32.040 --> 00:19:33.780 I just want to go play basketball with these kids. 00:19:33.880 --> 00:19:36.060 So we just said, hey, what do you need from us? 00:19:37.080 --> 00:19:41.100 And he just said, promote it so that I can get some volunteers to come play with me. 00:19:41.620 --> 00:19:48.980 That basketball, every Thursday night, turned into a Bible study where these kids were now coming to church after basketball. 00:19:48.980 --> 00:19:54.120 We were tutoring them in school, teaching them a Bible story, feeding them dinner. 00:19:54.560 --> 00:19:56.620 It wasn't even an idea that I came up with. 00:19:56.640 --> 00:19:58.920 It was something that someone else came up with, right? 00:19:59.200 --> 00:20:02.000 Our singles ministry was something that someone else came up with. 00:20:02.300 --> 00:20:06.460 So my role has been, man, God will give you guys ideas. 00:20:07.040 --> 00:20:08.360 Sometimes they'll work. 00:20:08.460 --> 00:20:09.320 Sometimes they'll fail. 00:20:09.540 --> 00:20:15.700 But I would rather you try something and it failed than you not try something and we never see the fruit of it, right? 00:20:15.740 --> 00:20:19.380 And so we've had a lot of things that we've said, hey, do it. 00:20:19.440 --> 00:20:20.020 Run with it. 00:20:21.000 --> 00:20:22.180 If it works, praise God. 00:20:22.240 --> 00:20:23.280 If it doesn't, at least you tried. 00:20:23.820 --> 00:20:25.500 And I mean, and so there's a risk there. 00:20:25.620 --> 00:20:28.940 There's always a risk of, oh, that failed and this failed. 00:20:29.000 --> 00:20:29.860 Why do we even do it? 00:20:30.240 --> 00:20:32.380 But at the end of the day, we grow from that. 00:20:32.500 --> 00:20:38.300 We learn from that and people's lives are impacted and gives an opportunity for people to grow in ministry. 00:20:38.300 --> 00:20:45.600 And so for us, as long as it fits under the umbrella of the vision of the church, we will say run with it. 00:20:46.180 --> 00:20:47.420 Own it and do it. 00:20:48.160 --> 00:20:49.540 And we don't need the credit. 00:20:49.780 --> 00:20:50.240 You own it. 00:20:50.380 --> 00:20:50.880 You take it. 00:20:51.260 --> 00:20:58.960 And so it's been good to see how, with that mindset, how people are thinking ministry opportunities. 00:20:59.100 --> 00:20:59.720 How do we serve? 00:20:59.800 --> 00:21:01.660 How do we make a difference in our community? 00:21:02.020 --> 00:21:02.700 So, yeah. 00:21:03.000 --> 00:21:03.700 You know, it's interesting. 00:21:03.700 --> 00:21:12.840 One of the conversations that I've been having kind of off air with pastors, and it's really this, the church controlling versus the church releasing. 00:21:14.220 --> 00:21:31.320 And, you know, it's what you're talking about, even with putting yourself in a bivo covo where you're not in a position to control, where you're really empowering a lot more of these volunteers and even discipling people, elevating the priesthood of all believers, giving more influence to the laity. 00:21:31.320 --> 00:21:37.700 Like, you're having to release a lot of that control that a typical church means. 00:21:37.760 --> 00:21:42.360 I don't know what typical church means, but like the average church would probably want to control that environment. 00:21:42.540 --> 00:21:46.700 But you seem to be talking about being much more open-handed with that. 00:21:47.500 --> 00:21:49.940 What does the discipleship process look like? 00:21:50.040 --> 00:21:59.880 How do you grow someone from, you know, maybe you don't know them at a personal level or they're not a Christian to a level that you know them spiritually? 00:21:59.880 --> 00:22:02.220 Like, talk to me a little bit about that process. 00:22:02.480 --> 00:22:12.340 Yeah, I think it's, for me, I intentionally disciple our leaders and say, I'm going to invest a lot of time in you. 00:22:12.480 --> 00:22:17.580 And our leaders invest into the teams that they are responsible for. 00:22:17.740 --> 00:22:20.480 They make sure they're poured into. 00:22:20.900 --> 00:22:22.500 We've got community groups. 00:22:22.560 --> 00:22:25.280 We've got Bible studies, all opportunities for people to grow. 00:22:25.280 --> 00:22:37.360 But I've also given everyone in our church my calendar and said, hey, if you want to connect with me and you want to grow a walk, you're welcome to sign up and I'll meet with you anywhere. 00:22:37.580 --> 00:22:38.940 And we'll grow and we'll walk. 00:22:39.000 --> 00:22:41.920 So I've got several that have said, hey, I want to be discipled. 00:22:41.920 --> 00:22:46.400 And so if you're serious about discipleship, I'm committed to it. 00:22:47.180 --> 00:22:52.400 And so we have several of our leaders that are doing that of intentionally walking one-on-one with people. 00:22:53.640 --> 00:22:56.300 And we can't force it on people. 00:22:56.440 --> 00:22:58.480 You've got to desire it. 00:22:58.560 --> 00:23:04.060 If I'm trying to force something on you and you're not wanting it, I'm wasting your time and you're wasting my time. 00:23:04.220 --> 00:23:10.480 So for me, it's always been, if you're serious about it, you've got my calendar link, sign up, let's go, let's talk, let's grow. 00:23:11.500 --> 00:23:22.460 And so it is making my time available for them, making sure our leaders know that their primary role is not the responsibilities that they have. 00:23:22.460 --> 00:23:27.760 Their primary roles are the people that have been entrusted to them to make sure they're growing and they're maturing. 00:23:28.320 --> 00:23:33.780 What types of things do you have them do to get to that point where you trust them in that discipleship process? 00:23:34.300 --> 00:23:36.860 How do you coach them and release? 00:23:36.980 --> 00:23:37.860 What are their responsibilities? 00:23:38.420 --> 00:23:39.240 What does that look like? 00:23:39.500 --> 00:23:43.020 Yeah, I think all of our leaders, we walk alongside of them. 00:23:43.580 --> 00:23:52.260 Give you an example, nine years ago, we had a young girl come from a Buddhist background, get saved, and she wanted to grow on our walk with Jesus. 00:23:52.260 --> 00:23:55.640 She was a student at UTD studying to be teaching. 00:23:56.380 --> 00:23:59.600 And so at that point, our church was small with like five kids. 00:24:00.220 --> 00:24:03.420 So we had her responsible for kids' ministry. 00:24:03.740 --> 00:24:10.300 We said, you're going to learn a lesson, you're going to teach the kids, and then every week you're going to come to our house and you're going to spend time with us. 00:24:11.280 --> 00:24:15.420 And we're going to make sure you understand the lesson and you're growing in your walk with Jesus. 00:24:15.620 --> 00:24:23.420 And the beauty of it was as she was learning the lesson, she started communicating those stories to her family members who were not followers of Jesus. 00:24:23.580 --> 00:24:26.700 And so just helped her to grow in her walk with Jesus. 00:24:26.840 --> 00:24:30.320 She's one of our strongest leaders in our church. 00:24:31.060 --> 00:24:35.420 And she just recently came up with a singles ministry that's thriving in our church. 00:24:35.600 --> 00:24:39.060 And so just really figuring out, hey, what are they passionate about? 00:24:39.240 --> 00:24:40.020 What do they love? 00:24:40.040 --> 00:24:44.220 And how do you involve Jesus in that conversation? 00:24:44.320 --> 00:24:48.100 How do you bring them, point them to, hey, how do you use teaching for Jesus? 00:24:48.240 --> 00:24:50.200 How do you use business for Jesus? 00:24:50.400 --> 00:24:58.560 It's not just head knowledge of, man, I can quote scriptures and verses, but how does my vocation, my life reflect Jesus? 00:24:58.780 --> 00:25:01.020 And so walking through that, so. 00:25:01.640 --> 00:25:03.400 I love that. 00:25:03.720 --> 00:25:10.800 You know, even the idea of, you're talking about this lady who is developing ideas centered around a singles ministry. 00:25:11.000 --> 00:25:13.280 You, as a church, you weren't thinking that way. 00:25:13.640 --> 00:25:20.160 She was, and now you're empowering her to run in that direction, trusting her, developing her spiritually, 00:25:20.340 --> 00:25:25.760 and then letting her follow after some of the ideas and the callings that she may have. 00:25:25.860 --> 00:25:28.240 Like, that's beautiful. 00:25:28.780 --> 00:25:32.780 Is there, is there tensions within your, your organization? 00:25:33.160 --> 00:25:35.720 Like, you're not the full-time pastor. 00:25:36.620 --> 00:25:38.480 You're not the paid guy. 00:25:38.580 --> 00:25:42.560 Like, is there any disrespect or are there people who don't understand that? 00:25:42.620 --> 00:25:44.820 Or like, what, what are those tensions? 00:25:44.820 --> 00:25:51.000 Because you're operating atypical than what a normal lead pastor would be. 00:25:51.000 --> 00:25:55.620 Yeah, I think the tensions are more, not necessarily on my role, 00:25:56.180 --> 00:25:59.860 as much as on the things that, hey, our church doesn't do this. 00:25:59.980 --> 00:26:02.260 So-and-so church has this program or that program. 00:26:02.820 --> 00:26:04.960 And it's more, why don't we have that? 00:26:05.160 --> 00:26:09.320 And the reality is, that's not what God's calling us to do. 00:26:09.480 --> 00:26:15.080 I mean, we have this much limited bandwidth, this much manpower, this much finances. 00:26:15.080 --> 00:26:20.300 How do we do the one or two things that we could do really, really well? 00:26:20.300 --> 00:26:21.800 And how do we do that with excellence? 00:26:21.800 --> 00:26:28.720 Instead of trying to do, copy a megachurch down the street where God's blessed them with resources and funds to do more. 00:26:29.380 --> 00:26:36.100 So I think that's where most of our attention is, is it's those kind of conversations of, 00:26:36.520 --> 00:26:38.160 why are we not doing what others are doing? 00:26:38.800 --> 00:26:48.580 But in terms of time and space, again, I have given everyone my calendar that they know when I'm available. 00:26:48.760 --> 00:26:50.040 They know I'm bivocational. 00:26:51.020 --> 00:26:54.340 And so they know how all of our leaders are bivocational. 00:26:54.560 --> 00:26:56.520 So they have given us grace for that. 00:26:57.560 --> 00:26:59.900 And they work alongside with that. 00:26:59.980 --> 00:27:06.180 And I think, like I said earlier, the beauty of that is they have come alongside and served alongside of us as we do that. 00:27:06.520 --> 00:27:12.820 So every staff member in your church is a bivocational. 00:27:12.820 --> 00:27:23.240 So no money or no full, like any money going to people or like at a part-time level or all income is outside of the church? 00:27:24.200 --> 00:27:27.380 There's a few that we say, hey, we want to bless you. 00:27:28.020 --> 00:27:31.740 It's definitely not like, oh, you're going to be able to live off of this. 00:27:32.640 --> 00:27:36.960 They're working and we just say, hey, as a blessing from the church, we want to bless you a little bit. 00:27:37.020 --> 00:27:38.620 But it's not significant. 00:27:39.640 --> 00:27:39.740 No. 00:27:40.080 --> 00:27:41.900 I mean, that's interesting. 00:27:41.900 --> 00:27:48.160 It's funny, even just in my own personal life right now, there's a church plant here in Miami Reality Church. 00:27:49.100 --> 00:27:55.320 And long story short, the executive pastor got COVID like a month before launch. 00:27:56.060 --> 00:28:01.940 And so I've been stepping in and helping manage that completely as a volunteer. 00:28:02.460 --> 00:28:04.920 And I'm not putting in major hours. 00:28:05.020 --> 00:28:07.560 Maybe I'm putting in more hours than I should time-wise. 00:28:07.560 --> 00:28:16.960 But I'm just helping to kind of make sure that they actually make it to launch and do vision trips and all the different major things that happen with the church before it launches. 00:28:17.420 --> 00:28:19.960 And as a matter of fact, even last night, I was 10 o'clock at night. 00:28:20.020 --> 00:28:25.160 I'm on a Zoom call with a social media director talking through some things as we're heading into launch week this week. 00:28:25.820 --> 00:28:28.080 And I mean, it's time. 00:28:28.220 --> 00:28:29.220 It's a strain. 00:28:29.680 --> 00:28:36.320 And even in my own mind, it's a little bit of shift here of, hey, I'm not doing this to make money. 00:28:36.400 --> 00:28:40.060 I'm not doing this because of salary. 00:28:41.000 --> 00:28:42.800 I'm doing this for the kingdom. 00:28:43.360 --> 00:28:51.520 And there's even, I would suspect, at least in my own life, there's a little bit of humility that comes with that of, hey, I'm being part of something bigger. 00:28:51.640 --> 00:28:53.720 I'm being part of a team. 00:28:54.320 --> 00:29:01.340 This is not the season for me to lead out as much as it is support because that's what the organization needs. 00:29:02.140 --> 00:29:11.500 And your heart of how you're doing that and empowering others in that same way, I mean, I don't want to speak out of turn of it, but it seems really healthy. 00:29:12.820 --> 00:29:18.700 Do you, like these people that are going through this, do you experience any burnout, any fatigue? 00:29:18.920 --> 00:29:20.320 Are they like, I can't do this. 00:29:20.360 --> 00:29:21.080 I need more money. 00:29:21.320 --> 00:29:23.400 Like, have you had those types of conversations? 00:29:23.860 --> 00:29:25.220 Not necessarily the money. 00:29:25.700 --> 00:29:30.560 More of the, hey, we're in a busy season where it's burnout. 00:29:30.960 --> 00:29:34.220 And so, and I think in those conversations, it's, hey, let's talk. 00:29:34.320 --> 00:29:41.020 Let's see what's on your plate that needs to be adjusted because you are working full time. 00:29:41.020 --> 00:29:47.740 So we're not expecting you to commit full time to the church, but we're expecting, hey, whatever you're doing, do it with excellence, right? 00:29:49.160 --> 00:29:56.880 And, yeah, I think one of the things that we do well is, and I think we can get better is we celebrate our people well. 00:29:57.020 --> 00:29:58.180 We make sure they're honored. 00:29:58.900 --> 00:30:00.660 We recognize them. 00:30:00.760 --> 00:30:05.680 All of the volunteers, they are consistently appreciated by our leadership. 00:30:05.960 --> 00:30:07.920 They're recognized and appreciated. 00:30:07.920 --> 00:30:10.340 So they know they're part of the team. 00:30:11.260 --> 00:30:12.740 Their voice matters. 00:30:13.120 --> 00:30:21.920 So once a month, we get on a call just to do a check-in to just celebrate what's going on in their lives and to pray and then cast a little bit of vision casting. 00:30:22.400 --> 00:30:24.460 But it's really just to see, hey, how's everyone doing? 00:30:24.540 --> 00:30:26.820 And to make sure we're connected together. 00:30:26.820 --> 00:30:29.600 We're not in silos doing our own thing. 00:30:30.560 --> 00:30:34.200 Yeah, we just take time to make sure everyone's heard and listened to. 00:30:34.560 --> 00:30:45.160 As, you know, operating a church this way with yourself being Bivo, others being Bivo, what's the scary thing? 00:30:45.220 --> 00:30:47.280 What's the thing that you need to keep your eye on? 00:30:48.100 --> 00:30:50.520 Like, when would this go south? 00:30:50.620 --> 00:30:52.160 Have you experienced something like that? 00:30:53.040 --> 00:30:56.100 What's the thing that you need to keep a watch out for? 00:30:56.440 --> 00:31:01.260 Yeah, so I think it's consistently being bivocational. 00:31:01.380 --> 00:31:12.720 There are some things that you can't do right away, but you've got to keep an eye on just to see if it's getting bigger, the crack is getting bigger to the point that, hey, you've got to address that. 00:31:12.780 --> 00:31:15.560 You've got to constantly keep your eyes on things like that, right? 00:31:15.560 --> 00:31:20.520 So, like, for our church, until recently, we haven't had conversations on membership. 00:31:20.940 --> 00:31:26.800 We were, because we were a very transient church with the students, we were just like, hey, if you're here, we're going to serve. 00:31:27.140 --> 00:31:27.800 You're going to serve. 00:31:27.860 --> 00:31:28.600 We're going to serve you. 00:31:28.700 --> 00:31:29.520 We're going to love on you. 00:31:29.780 --> 00:31:35.940 But as we grow, that's something we're just like saying, hey, this is probably something we need to address and we need to look at. 00:31:36.500 --> 00:31:37.960 Well, we haven't addressed it for 10 years. 00:31:38.420 --> 00:31:45.220 But we're, so we're just, I mean, there's some of those things that we're just like, hey, is this something that we need to address right away? 00:31:45.220 --> 00:31:50.620 Or is this something that we can, it's on the table for later, but it's not an urgent issue right now? 00:31:50.620 --> 00:31:59.700 Because there's a lot of other, quote, unquote, urgent issues as bivocational ministry that come in front of you that, so what's important, what's not? 00:31:59.840 --> 00:32:04.460 So just constantly keeping your eyes on the things that are not important to make sure they don't become an issue. 00:32:04.860 --> 00:32:05.420 That's beautiful. 00:32:05.580 --> 00:32:07.260 Keep an eye on what's ahead. 00:32:07.620 --> 00:32:10.820 I have, in my own life, I have friends. 00:32:11.660 --> 00:32:16.140 Now, you've talked a lot about here, about from a church planting perspective, going by Vocovo. 00:32:16.300 --> 00:32:17.000 Love that. 00:32:17.480 --> 00:32:23.760 Digital church planting, see a definite opportunity to take advantage of that, even physical church planting. 00:32:23.880 --> 00:32:27.460 I think there's going to be a, we were having this conversation within Stadia. 00:32:27.460 --> 00:32:38.400 I think probably 25% of the people we're talking with at this point, with even within physical or fidgetal church planting, what we call it at Stadia, 25% are thinking by Vocovo right out of the bat. 00:32:39.080 --> 00:32:46.340 And so there's a definite trend towards churches that are running the way that, Sam, you're a trendsetter for a decade. 00:32:46.580 --> 00:32:48.020 Who would have thought? 00:32:49.140 --> 00:32:59.780 But there's another probably group of audience that's out there that's listening to this, where maybe it's the staff member, not at a church plant, but more of an established church. 00:33:00.420 --> 00:33:08.180 And in my own life, like I've Ray the Armist, co-host here on the show, is one of these guys that was a full-time staff guy. 00:33:08.180 --> 00:33:29.440 And with a master's degree in seminary, like he had an MDiv and he stepped out of that church staff role, even like not just even to part-time, but all the way down to now going back to school to become a medical tech because he wants to see the hospital become his mission field. 00:33:29.520 --> 00:33:30.740 The hospital is his church. 00:33:31.160 --> 00:33:49.680 I've also had friends leave and go part-time and take jobs as realtors so that they can engage more with people, not be stuck in an office building, doing managing church, but actually being on mission and connecting with people within the community. 00:33:49.680 --> 00:34:04.560 So there's this movement a little bit here in this season of moving away from that full-time staff position towards, Sam, some of the stuff I think you're talking about, where it's more of this bivo or covo type relationship. 00:34:05.420 --> 00:34:12.620 My question would be, if I'm coming from like an established environment, what are some things that I need to be aware of? 00:34:12.620 --> 00:34:20.820 What are some challenges, obstacles that I might be facing as I'm moving away from that full-time paycheck towards something like what you're doing? 00:34:21.040 --> 00:34:24.780 I think if you're considering it, the first thing is you need to know your bandwidth. 00:34:25.880 --> 00:34:34.180 If you're not able to do both well, you're dishonoring both your church and whoever your employer is, right? 00:34:34.840 --> 00:34:40.780 And so you need to be able to say, hey, I can do both of my jobs well, do both for the glory of God. 00:34:40.780 --> 00:34:49.120 So if I'm working in an office setting, I should be able to commit to the office setting and not like sit in the office setting and do all the church work. 00:34:49.720 --> 00:34:51.780 That's dishonoring to the people that's paying you. 00:34:52.060 --> 00:35:03.980 And so thinking through those conversations of how do I honor both of the vocations that I've been entrusted to, right? 00:35:03.980 --> 00:35:16.700 And so thinking through that, thinking through schedule, if you're asked to work 40 hours a week, can you look at your calendar and be able to plan, hey, when do I have time for sermon prep? 00:35:16.780 --> 00:35:18.040 When do I have time for rest? 00:35:18.420 --> 00:35:20.460 When do I have time for family? 00:35:21.240 --> 00:35:24.120 When am I taking my wife out for a date? 00:35:24.240 --> 00:35:30.080 I mean, those things, because if you don't plan it out, it's going to be overlooked and you're going to forget about it. 00:35:30.460 --> 00:35:43.540 And so working through that, I think working through where you are financially, are you able to transition out of a full-time job, go, and what's that strain on you? 00:35:44.000 --> 00:35:46.340 And I think the last one is timing. 00:35:46.560 --> 00:35:48.580 Is this God's timing for you to do that? 00:35:48.780 --> 00:35:54.480 Or is there, is God saying wait, right? 00:35:54.600 --> 00:35:59.020 Like for us, we've been waiting for 10 years for God to say, okay, go full-time. 00:35:59.440 --> 00:36:00.300 And God still says wait. 00:36:00.660 --> 00:36:01.600 And so we're waiting. 00:36:02.060 --> 00:36:03.740 And so just being obedient to Jesus. 00:36:04.120 --> 00:36:19.360 And little did I know 10 years ago that God was having me do this for 10 years so I can equip and train church planters that are coming through Stadia's cohorts that are thinking about bivocational ministry and to be able to equip them and encourage them. 00:36:19.760 --> 00:36:23.120 And so there's sometimes a reason why God will allow you to go full-time. 00:36:23.200 --> 00:36:25.520 And sometimes there's a reason why God will tell you to wait. 00:36:25.620 --> 00:36:27.420 And you just got to trust God in that process. 00:36:27.420 --> 00:36:38.340 You know, there was a time in my life where the number one goal and priority, confession hour, the number one priority of my life was to get a paycheck from a church. 00:36:39.360 --> 00:36:41.920 It probably wasn't the healthiest place of my life. 00:36:42.480 --> 00:36:49.880 But in my 20s, it wasn't, I'll just be honest, like it wasn't, the mindset wasn't ministry. 00:36:50.420 --> 00:36:53.380 The mindset was get paid. 00:36:54.220 --> 00:36:56.940 And that wasn't a healthy place. 00:36:56.940 --> 00:36:58.220 It wasn't a good place. 00:36:58.220 --> 00:37:04.480 And what you're describing, I mean, I'm in my 40s now, so maybe this was two decades ago. 00:37:04.580 --> 00:37:08.060 But now I'm looking at this and I'm like, man, this is so much healthier. 00:37:08.300 --> 00:37:10.580 This is so much stable, more stable. 00:37:10.720 --> 00:37:26.280 And as we're seeing, you know, troubles and problems within established churches, returning more to this bivocobo type of state seems to be far more effective and far more about disciple making. 00:37:26.460 --> 00:37:31.940 And I think it's better than it does growth, you know, often growth seems to be the enemy of multiplication. 00:37:31.940 --> 00:37:38.860 And I think, you know, what you're describing here, we're seeing that in real time. 00:37:39.100 --> 00:37:53.800 One of my mentors and close friends has this saying that every pastor's idol is to get to the point where we don't need Jesus, that we would have enough people and enough money to be able to do all of our programs without depending on Jesus. 00:37:53.960 --> 00:38:04.960 And I think the beauty of bivocational ministry is there's this constant dependence on Jesus, dependence for Jesus to bring people to serve alongside of you because, you know, you can't do everything on your own. 00:38:05.360 --> 00:38:10.980 And a dependence for finances for the church so that the church could do the things that God's calling it to do. 00:38:10.980 --> 00:38:19.680 So I think one of the beauties of bivocational ministry is there is just this dependence on Jesus that you're that's just fresh. 00:38:19.760 --> 00:38:21.140 That's just fresh and real. 00:38:21.680 --> 00:38:22.080 Okay, Sam. 00:38:22.180 --> 00:38:31.920 So I have a running gag here on the show that when I hear a quote, worthy enough of getting a tattoo and getting it tattooed on my body, I call it out. 00:38:31.920 --> 00:38:35.020 And I haven't done this in months. 00:38:35.680 --> 00:38:39.320 But that right there, what did you say? 00:38:39.400 --> 00:38:46.460 It was one of the idols of a pastor is getting to the point where they no longer need Jesus to do ministry or to that extent. 00:38:46.460 --> 00:38:49.740 That they have enough money and enough people that they don't have to depend on Jesus. 00:38:49.820 --> 00:38:52.420 No longer need to depend on on Jesus. 00:38:52.720 --> 00:38:53.540 Dang, sir. 00:38:54.320 --> 00:38:58.680 Man, I'm that that one hurt at a deep level. 00:38:59.200 --> 00:39:02.120 And so I think we're going to we're going to end the plane on that one. 00:39:02.160 --> 00:39:04.920 I may start I may I'm I may start tearing up. 00:39:05.000 --> 00:39:07.200 You can't tell if you're listening on the podcast, but dang. 00:39:08.280 --> 00:39:13.620 Hey, as as we're landing the plane here, Sam, man, any any closing thoughts? 00:39:13.640 --> 00:39:14.560 It's been awesome, man. 00:39:14.620 --> 00:39:16.080 Any closing thoughts as we land in the plane? 00:39:16.080 --> 00:39:18.520 For those of you who are in bivocational ministry. 00:39:20.100 --> 00:39:29.080 Don't feel like God's not opening the door for you something now or you're in a season of waiting before God opens the door for you. 00:39:29.340 --> 00:39:31.040 You're exactly where God wants you to be. 00:39:31.180 --> 00:39:32.100 So trust God. 00:39:32.580 --> 00:39:33.420 Serve God fully. 00:39:33.980 --> 00:39:39.260 And if God has you there for the rest of your life, serve him there with all of your heart for the rest of your life. 00:39:39.680 --> 00:39:43.220 You're not any better, any worse than someone who's full time on staff. 00:39:43.600 --> 00:39:48.060 You've just got to trust that what God's called you to do is different from someone else. 00:39:48.120 --> 00:39:48.720 It's not better. 00:39:48.840 --> 00:39:49.520 It's not worse. 00:39:49.880 --> 00:39:54.300 But you are going to touch people and your life is going to impact people. 00:39:54.440 --> 00:39:57.940 So just keep pouring in and be faithful with the things that God has given you. 00:39:58.020 --> 00:39:58.120 Right. 00:39:58.520 --> 00:40:02.140 At the end of the day, God's not going to look at your numbers. 00:40:02.420 --> 00:40:04.320 God's going to look at your faithfulness and your obedience. 00:40:04.480 --> 00:40:07.920 And so be faithful, be obedient and let God do the work. 00:40:08.400 --> 00:40:08.900 Well, thank you, sir. 00:40:08.960 --> 00:40:10.620 Appreciate the time, Sam. 00:40:10.860 --> 00:40:15.460 And so we'll include his information in the show notes if you have questions. 00:40:15.760 --> 00:40:20.380 But, man, have loved getting to know you better through this podcast conversation. 00:40:20.660 --> 00:40:24.800 And obviously looking forward to working with you more with Stadia and everything beyond. 00:40:24.920 --> 00:40:27.040 Thank you, man, for just your faithfulness. 00:40:27.100 --> 00:40:35.160 Ten years, Bivo Kobo, doing the church, growing it back is a testament to who you are as a person. 00:40:35.320 --> 00:40:37.140 So, man, thanks for the time here jumping on this. 00:40:37.200 --> 00:40:37.680 Thanks, Jeff. 00:40:37.780 --> 00:40:38.340 Oh, definitely. 00:40:38.340 --> 00:40:41.540 For Sam, this is Jeff at the Church Digital and Stadia Church Planning. 00:40:42.000 --> 00:40:43.300 Thanks for jumping on the podcast here. 00:40:43.340 --> 00:40:44.260 I want to see you next time at the show. 00:40:44.540 --> 00:40:44.980 Y'all have a good day.