WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:03.800 Welcome to the Church Digital Podcast, powered by Stadia Church Planting. 00:00:04.440 --> 00:00:08.540 Through this podcast, learn about how God is using technology and innovation 00:00:08.540 --> 00:00:11.580 in digital and digital environments around the world. 00:00:12.080 --> 00:00:16.000 Our goal? To help churches like yours learn to be the church digitally. 00:00:16.600 --> 00:00:21.600 Our heart? That churches like yours will discover a newfound focus on disciple-making 00:00:21.600 --> 00:00:23.600 that will revolutionize your church. 00:00:24.120 --> 00:00:26.660 And now, your host, here's Jeff Reed. 00:00:27.240 --> 00:00:28.680 Hey everybody, Jeff with the Church Digital. 00:00:28.680 --> 00:00:35.760 I gotta tell you, Dr. Harris here is quickly becoming one of my favorite digital-only planters on the scene right now. 00:00:35.880 --> 00:00:42.740 Every time I get a chance to talk to this guy, I am learning something in a deep way. 00:00:42.900 --> 00:00:47.240 And this podcast conversation was no change in that pattern. 00:00:47.340 --> 00:00:50.820 Dr. Harris, if you've not had a chance to connect with him or meet him yet, 00:00:51.120 --> 00:00:54.640 he leads a digital church called Hearts Like His. 00:00:54.640 --> 00:00:59.660 It's a Facebook-only expression, and we get more into that strategy here in a little bit. 00:00:59.960 --> 00:01:03.820 But through this conversation, man, we got to talk about Facebook, digital-only, 00:01:04.220 --> 00:01:08.480 the physical digital threat, the perceived threat that may be out there. 00:01:08.500 --> 00:01:13.540 We got to talk about race in the church, race in a digital-only expression of church. 00:01:13.660 --> 00:01:19.360 What is the role of race in that digital church, in his specific digital church? 00:01:19.560 --> 00:01:23.800 Many other things and topics, that was just a beautiful conversation. 00:01:24.200 --> 00:01:25.620 And listen, I just want to get to it. 00:01:25.680 --> 00:01:26.340 I want to get you going. 00:01:26.620 --> 00:01:27.100 So here we go. 00:01:27.180 --> 00:01:34.660 We are bringing into the conversation Dr. John Harris, lead pastor of Hearts Like His. 00:01:34.760 --> 00:01:43.120 Myself, Jeff with the Church Digital, and with Stadia Church Planning in a conversation that I'm calling the perceived threat of a digital church. 00:01:43.520 --> 00:01:44.420 Okay, everybody, here you go. 00:01:44.700 --> 00:01:45.720 What's your ministry story? 00:01:45.820 --> 00:01:53.480 Give me a two-minute version of that, and then we'll springboard into a lot more interesting questions, at least on the digital front. 00:01:53.720 --> 00:01:56.820 Yeah, I grew up as a pastor's kid. 00:01:57.300 --> 00:01:58.720 My dad was the Air Force chaplain. 00:01:58.900 --> 00:02:05.560 My mom was also active duty in the Air Force, and then when they got out, he was pastoring a church, a Baptist church in Arkansas. 00:02:06.080 --> 00:02:09.860 So I grew up there and accepted my call to ministry at 15. 00:02:10.620 --> 00:02:21.940 And so from there, I went to college, went to seminary, and really focused on seminary because I needed an MDiv, Masters of Divinity, to get into the Air Force chaplaincy. 00:02:22.020 --> 00:02:24.400 I really felt God wanted me to lead me in that direction. 00:02:24.400 --> 00:02:29.520 So I was in the Air Force chaplaincy for nine years, two different summers. 00:02:30.220 --> 00:02:31.640 2007, I was in Iraq. 00:02:32.060 --> 00:02:38.500 2010, I was in Afghanistan serving as hospital chaplain because of some special training that I had received there. 00:02:39.400 --> 00:02:43.020 And that's where, you know, the military is really a leadership factory. 00:02:43.740 --> 00:02:44.640 It's a leadership culture. 00:02:44.780 --> 00:02:45.680 It's a leadership factory. 00:02:46.280 --> 00:03:01.280 And so when I left the military after nine years and came on staff at a church in Northern California, I didn't really realize how much leadership and stuff I had learned over the years, even prior to with my dad and other pastoral mentors, but certainly in the military. 00:03:01.620 --> 00:03:07.100 So I came on staff in a civilian context, and I thought, wow, they definitely do things a little different. 00:03:10.560 --> 00:03:19.500 So I served as an executive pastor for a little bit there, and about nine years as well, small groups, executive pastor, teaching pastor, the whole thing. 00:03:19.880 --> 00:03:24.300 And then I stepped down from that in 2019 to help more churches. 00:03:25.200 --> 00:03:35.020 And, you know, really seeing how God was using me to help the church that I was in and some other local pastors, I really felt the need to help more churches. 00:03:35.020 --> 00:03:39.780 And so I stepped down from my full-time role to do church consulting full-time in 2019. 00:03:40.580 --> 00:04:00.520 And then at the same time, though, I'm seeing this decline of church attendance, the rise of the nuns and the duns, and those who are leaving the church and either going from Christianity to another faith or from Christianity to atheism. 00:04:01.040 --> 00:04:02.940 And I'm seeing this rising trend. 00:04:03.020 --> 00:04:04.340 So that's kind of like in the back of my mind. 00:04:04.340 --> 00:04:16.480 So when 2020 happened, well, when COVID happened in 2020, I thought, man, this is, one, there has to be an answer for all these people who are leaving. 00:04:16.900 --> 00:04:27.200 And then, two, such a shift to online, it made online only more palatable for a lot of people, especially those who had already left the church, right? 00:04:27.240 --> 00:04:28.940 They already left the church, and so they were online. 00:04:29.080 --> 00:04:32.920 And so my wife and I are just really praying about what to do there. 00:04:33.200 --> 00:04:36.060 That's why we started Hearts Like His on Facebook. 00:04:36.540 --> 00:04:48.240 Yeah, that's a very non-conventional ministry route, starting with the military, you know, hospital chaplaincy, which leads back to a more traditional church mindset. 00:04:48.240 --> 00:05:00.300 But you, it feels like you got out of that relatively quickly, started doing consulting, and now, you know, a completely non-traditional route by launching this digital-only church. 00:05:00.580 --> 00:05:07.840 Like, I want to dig into the digital-only church here in a little bit, but military is incredibly, I mean, traditional. 00:05:08.160 --> 00:05:13.400 I'm not judging, but it's, you know, you do, it's not, hey, let's think outside of the box. 00:05:13.480 --> 00:05:16.160 Let's go join the military and be a chaplain over there. 00:05:16.280 --> 00:05:20.680 It's more of, like, here's your operating procedure handbook, do as it says. 00:05:20.760 --> 00:05:22.980 At least that's how it's been described to me. 00:05:23.580 --> 00:05:32.920 How do you wrestle with, like, the years of thinking traditional to now thinking kind of outside of the box doing this digital church planning thing? 00:05:32.920 --> 00:05:40.640 Well, even though the military has tons of traditions, it also is on the cutting edge of a lot of innovation. 00:05:41.460 --> 00:05:49.040 And so, you know, when you think of, like, our aircraft, right, the F-35, the stealth fighter back in the day, I mean, there's a lot of innovation. 00:05:49.300 --> 00:06:00.940 So, yes, there's, like, two parallels there, tradition as far as heritage and how we value that, but also, man, what is the military that's behind on technology trends? 00:06:02.300 --> 00:06:02.840 Yeah, right. 00:06:03.220 --> 00:06:03.760 That's fair. 00:06:03.960 --> 00:06:09.720 Yeah, so always challenging you to think outside the box, to problem solve, to all those kind of things. 00:06:10.200 --> 00:06:12.900 And so it's quite a balance of both, actually. 00:06:13.500 --> 00:06:26.420 And so, yeah, thinking outside the box, to problem solve, to lead people, to all those kind of things, you certainly cannot be behind the curve when it comes to leadership in a military context. 00:06:26.420 --> 00:06:27.160 Well, awesome. 00:06:27.240 --> 00:06:37.640 And so we fast forward to where we are today, and now you're running Hearts Like His, a digital-only church, or a church that exists primarily in Facebook, I would assume. 00:06:37.820 --> 00:06:40.620 And so why digital? 00:06:40.800 --> 00:06:41.940 Like, you had a bunch of options. 00:06:41.940 --> 00:06:43.460 You're doing the consulting thing. 00:06:44.160 --> 00:06:54.000 What brought you into doing this radical thing of running a digital-only church that so few people, you know, in the grand scheme of things validate? 00:06:54.120 --> 00:06:58.620 This is still a very controversial idea, and you, like, embraced it. 00:06:59.160 --> 00:07:00.360 What was kind of the mindset? 00:07:00.880 --> 00:07:04.740 You know, I didn't see it as radical at the time. 00:07:06.240 --> 00:07:07.720 I saw it as necessary. 00:07:08.380 --> 00:07:12.180 So that was a different perspective just out of the gate. 00:07:13.380 --> 00:07:26.460 When I talk with pastors about their online ministry, one of the things that always, always, always pops up if they're struggling with online ministry, the thing that always pops up is their view of it as a threat to in person. 00:07:27.600 --> 00:07:28.800 And here's why. 00:07:28.860 --> 00:07:40.620 From a psychological perspective, when you are already struggling to survive, then you view pretty much anything else as a threat to your survival. 00:07:41.220 --> 00:07:50.700 So if you are struggling to get people in person before COVID, then you see online as a way for people to stay at home, to not come. 00:07:51.240 --> 00:07:52.860 You see it as a rival. 00:07:53.140 --> 00:07:55.380 You don't see it, and you see it as an enemy. 00:07:55.820 --> 00:07:58.400 So it's not even a theological issue for some people. 00:07:58.400 --> 00:08:08.820 They're hiding behind the theology of it basically because of the fear that it will create another thing that keeps people from being in person, right? 00:08:09.060 --> 00:08:12.460 So in-person ministry is already competing with sports. 00:08:12.740 --> 00:08:14.040 Sports has changed, right? 00:08:14.140 --> 00:08:15.040 Sports on Sunday now. 00:08:15.120 --> 00:08:16.260 That wasn't the deal 15 years ago. 00:08:16.580 --> 00:08:18.100 People are working on Sunday now. 00:08:18.720 --> 00:08:19.500 That wasn't the thing. 00:08:19.560 --> 00:08:22.660 You used to be able to tell your boss, I don't work on Sundays, right? 00:08:23.320 --> 00:08:24.380 And they were on to that. 00:08:24.820 --> 00:08:25.300 Not now. 00:08:25.300 --> 00:08:30.940 So there are already some literal, you know, competitions to in-person attendance. 00:08:31.180 --> 00:08:42.380 So then when online happened, a lot of people view this as another competition to in-person attendance, which meant that they weren't going to put their all into it. 00:08:42.520 --> 00:08:49.880 They were just going to deal with it, cope with it, not try to innovate, not try to exploit the benefits of it, but to just deal with it. 00:08:49.880 --> 00:08:53.980 Almost like somebody, you know, who puts their head underwater and they're just holding their breath. 00:08:54.260 --> 00:09:05.140 So they're kind of waiting for this whole COVID thing to blow over so they can pop their head above water and breathe again and go back to what they were used to doing, competent in doing, excellent at doing, and that was in person. 00:09:05.400 --> 00:09:13.280 So they saw online as a threat and they're trying to protect the in-person paradigm from it. 00:09:13.500 --> 00:09:17.580 Well, for me, I didn't have an in-person ministry, so there was nothing to protect. 00:09:17.820 --> 00:09:19.140 There was nothing to defend. 00:09:19.540 --> 00:09:22.860 I didn't see this as a threat because there was nothing to threaten. 00:09:23.220 --> 00:09:27.000 I had nothing, just me and my wife and Facebook Live. 00:09:27.380 --> 00:09:31.800 And so the other thing is I enjoy doing Facebook Live videos. 00:09:31.960 --> 00:09:34.140 So that part wasn't a hurdle for me. 00:09:34.720 --> 00:09:39.100 I'm used to talking to the screen where a lot of other pastors weren't. 00:09:39.420 --> 00:09:43.600 So there are a lot of hurdles that some pastors had just out of the gate that I didn't have. 00:09:44.880 --> 00:09:50.920 And so then when you look at the move from the practical piece to the theological aspect, 00:09:51.760 --> 00:09:56.240 if the church is all about reaching out to people, going into all the world, 00:09:56.580 --> 00:10:01.140 then digital ministry is the absolute best way that we can do what Jesus told us to do. 00:10:03.040 --> 00:10:07.060 And so, again, looking at it as an opportunity. 00:10:07.460 --> 00:10:10.240 You know, you've probably heard of like the SWOT analysis, right? 00:10:10.580 --> 00:10:12.620 Strengths, weaknesses, opportunities, and threats. 00:10:12.920 --> 00:10:23.220 And I think the success of a pastor or church's online ministry is determined by which box they put online ministry in. 00:10:23.380 --> 00:10:24.880 Some have it as a threat. 00:10:25.040 --> 00:10:26.420 Some have it as an opportunity. 00:10:26.640 --> 00:10:28.520 I had it in the box for opportunity. 00:10:29.640 --> 00:10:32.180 And so I think a lot of success comes from that way. 00:10:32.600 --> 00:10:36.760 If you have it as, if you view it as a threat, you're just, you're not going to think creatively about it. 00:10:36.780 --> 00:10:37.860 You're just, you're just not. 00:10:37.940 --> 00:10:43.040 It's just going to be one of those things you feel like you're having, having to do, forced to do, can't wait till it's over. 00:10:43.140 --> 00:10:47.680 Because we love being in person, like hugs and high fives and all those kinds of things. 00:10:48.100 --> 00:10:50.880 And then you just, you miss out on some of the opportunities. 00:10:51.220 --> 00:10:54.800 Yeah, that is incredible insight right there on the threat. 00:10:54.980 --> 00:11:00.540 I had a church pre-COVID executive pastor strategy. 00:11:00.800 --> 00:11:05.100 Like he was, he was a senior leadership of a church here in Florida. 00:11:05.100 --> 00:11:07.180 And I was having a conversation with him. 00:11:07.380 --> 00:11:10.680 He was talking about multi-site campuses and how he's, he's launching. 00:11:11.000 --> 00:11:13.660 It was a bunch of multi-site campuses this church was launching. 00:11:13.780 --> 00:11:23.660 And I asked the, I asked the senior leader of the church, hey, what, what role does digital, what role does church online play in, in where you're putting the locations? 00:11:23.660 --> 00:11:25.220 And it was, was funny. 00:11:25.380 --> 00:11:29.620 His response was literally absolutely nothing. 00:11:29.620 --> 00:11:33.500 We only count people that are capable of putting on their pants. 00:11:34.660 --> 00:11:35.180 Wow. 00:11:35.740 --> 00:11:37.280 And I'm like, this is pre-COVID. 00:11:37.680 --> 00:11:39.320 This is, this is a, this is a giga church. 00:11:39.320 --> 00:11:40.640 This is a huge Florida church. 00:11:40.760 --> 00:11:44.740 And I'm staring at this pastor and I'm like, are you kidding me right now? 00:11:44.820 --> 00:11:46.860 You don't know consideration whatsoever. 00:11:47.480 --> 00:11:52.100 And it's like, no, because, because they're, they're not capable of putting on pants and coming to a, to a venue. 00:11:52.340 --> 00:11:55.740 And it was like, I just, I didn't have the opportunity to psycho-evaluate that. 00:11:55.860 --> 00:12:00.060 But hearing you describe threat in that situation, it's so true. 00:12:00.480 --> 00:12:03.680 That so often we, we, we look at it as a competition. 00:12:03.680 --> 00:12:21.720 We look at it as, you know, Peter robbing Paul or, or, you know, taking from one to the other and, and trying to figure out and find the ways that digital, if you're doing the physical strategy work and compliment that, or even to your point, man, you're able to operate with a lot more freedom in the digital space. 00:12:21.720 --> 00:12:27.920 Because you don't necessarily have that, that physical balance to try to work through. 00:12:28.040 --> 00:12:29.440 So that's, that's beautiful. 00:12:29.580 --> 00:12:30.160 Well, do this. 00:12:30.260 --> 00:12:31.040 Tell me a little bit. 00:12:31.440 --> 00:12:34.000 Tell me about Hearts Like His. 00:12:34.080 --> 00:12:35.060 Tell me about the church. 00:12:35.260 --> 00:12:41.240 What, what, what it looks like, how, how you guys got started and what it looks like in any given week. 00:12:41.500 --> 00:12:41.960 Yeah, sure. 00:12:42.180 --> 00:12:53.480 So I, first, let me say, I learned quite a bit as far as my, my format from, from Angela Craig, who has a group called Online Jesus Facebook. 00:12:54.260 --> 00:13:01.400 And some of the training that she did as she was a pioneer with Pursuit Church Live on Facebook a few years ago, she's handed it off recently. 00:13:02.420 --> 00:13:20.200 And then also Myron Pierce, I want to give a shout out to him and some of the stuff that he does to help, help people look at how to use digital space to create gatherings in physical spaces and, and really launching church plants from online. 00:13:20.760 --> 00:13:25.120 So, so as I, as I got into this, looking to see how do I really do this? 00:13:25.120 --> 00:13:37.180 And also Nona Jones's book, From Social Media to Social Ministry, helped me kind of wrap my mind around, okay, this is not like far-fetched idea to do ministry on, on here, just on, just on Facebook. 00:13:37.920 --> 00:13:44.340 So I use Facebook, the Facebook page as kind of like my outreach, kind of like the billboard, kind of like the front porch. 00:13:44.540 --> 00:13:47.580 And then the Facebook group is where the community is. 00:13:48.600 --> 00:14:01.540 And, and so inside the group, what I've done is, again, a hurdle that some people run into is trying to take what's in person and just replicate it online without changing anything. 00:14:01.900 --> 00:14:04.080 But the online space is a whole nother culture. 00:14:04.220 --> 00:14:05.180 It's a whole nother environment. 00:14:05.440 --> 00:14:09.800 And so that's a, that's a miss if you just try to duplicate in person online. 00:14:10.280 --> 00:14:20.500 So if you look at the online culture and environment, and then you adapt your ministry to that, which is what we've been trying to do and still doing now, then you prioritize community over content. 00:14:20.820 --> 00:14:24.340 So that's number one, you prioritize community over content. 00:14:24.500 --> 00:14:26.620 People can get content anywhere. 00:14:26.620 --> 00:14:34.140 And many church members, many pastors experienced that, that their church members, my church members, they discovered Google. 00:14:35.380 --> 00:14:37.860 They discovered, they discovered YouTube. 00:14:38.400 --> 00:14:44.180 They can get all, they can get better sermons, longer sermons, shorter sermons, better graphics, anywhere else. 00:14:44.520 --> 00:14:49.520 But the, what, the place where you win is that they can't get that community anywhere else. 00:14:50.060 --> 00:14:50.380 Right? 00:14:50.620 --> 00:14:53.220 So, so one, we value community over content. 00:14:53.220 --> 00:15:00.520 And so what that means is that I, I still teach once a week, me and my wife, we teach on Wednesdays once a week in the evening. 00:15:01.240 --> 00:15:05.240 And, but, but we don't really, we haven't really called it a church. 00:15:05.240 --> 00:15:07.700 And I don't think we have to call it a church for it to be a church. 00:15:08.400 --> 00:15:14.140 Um, because a big part of who we're reaching out to is the people who have left. 00:15:14.520 --> 00:15:14.800 Right? 00:15:14.880 --> 00:15:20.220 So, so the, so the target is, is really part of the reason why we have the model that we have. 00:15:20.660 --> 00:15:30.820 So the target is people who've left the traditional model and what they discovered based on a, um, some research by, uh, I think his name was Josh Packard. 00:15:30.880 --> 00:15:32.260 He wrote a book called Church Refugees. 00:15:32.500 --> 00:15:35.400 Is that people who've left, they didn't really leave, they didn't leave Christianity. 00:15:35.800 --> 00:15:36.700 A lot of them didn't leave Christianity. 00:15:36.900 --> 00:15:39.100 They left a particular model of church. 00:15:39.500 --> 00:15:39.640 Right? 00:15:39.740 --> 00:15:42.300 One expression of church, which is a Sunday morning. 00:15:42.840 --> 00:15:47.140 So they're out there floating around and God's will is for them to be connected. 00:15:47.360 --> 00:15:56.780 And so in me reaching out to them and some who are still connected to their local churches, I don't really call it a church, but it's just, we call it a discipleship community. 00:15:57.480 --> 00:16:23.560 Which essentially is what it's a church, but, um, so because it's a discipleship community, everything is geared towards people being discipled, not people being entertained by a great online production, not people being, um, um, I don't know, just like, I don't need you to sign up for a bunch of volunteer positions to, to keep this, keep this going. 00:16:23.560 --> 00:16:25.120 There, there, there, there really aren't a whole lot. 00:16:25.820 --> 00:16:31.160 So there's weekly teaching and, um, and then a lot of community discussion. 00:16:31.580 --> 00:16:39.640 So if you're on Facebook, there are, there are engagement posts that you need to use so that the Facebook algorithm says that what you're producing is, is relevant. 00:16:39.900 --> 00:16:43.000 So that's why people have posts like, do you like apple pie or cherry pie? 00:16:43.080 --> 00:16:44.360 People just kind of comment on it, right? 00:16:44.360 --> 00:16:45.300 Just to get people engaged. 00:16:45.640 --> 00:16:47.820 But, but that's not really community building. 00:16:47.880 --> 00:16:49.780 It's part of it, but a bigger piece. 00:16:49.780 --> 00:16:57.160 And what we're doing is we're asking personal questions or, or, or posts that things like, like, what's your win of the week? 00:16:57.220 --> 00:17:00.880 So I want you to share something out of your life into this post. 00:17:00.920 --> 00:17:03.620 And so it actually creates community content. 00:17:03.960 --> 00:17:07.480 So when I put up there on a Friday or Saturday, what is your win of the week? 00:17:07.580 --> 00:17:14.440 And someone says, I just got a promotion on my job, or I just got a raise, or, or my husband just got a new job. 00:17:14.460 --> 00:17:15.240 We're looking for a new job. 00:17:15.820 --> 00:17:22.060 Or, or I was able to go bike riding five days out of seven days this week, or I was able to get, to get a nap, right? 00:17:22.200 --> 00:17:28.480 So people are actually sharing out of their lives, which is important for building community. 00:17:29.360 --> 00:17:33.580 And so when they, when that happens, then people are commenting on it now. 00:17:33.660 --> 00:17:34.520 So this is not me. 00:17:34.560 --> 00:17:35.280 I'm not even doing it. 00:17:35.320 --> 00:17:41.100 I just posted what's your win of the week, professional, professional, professional, professional, big or small, we celebrate them all. 00:17:41.500 --> 00:17:48.020 And so, so the community is sharing about themselves online, which they do not do the same on in person. 00:17:49.160 --> 00:17:49.520 Right? 00:17:49.940 --> 00:17:52.180 So they're not sharing their birthdays in person. 00:17:52.280 --> 00:17:55.100 They're not sharing all this kind of things that they can do online. 00:17:55.200 --> 00:17:55.680 And guess what? 00:17:55.700 --> 00:17:59.900 It's not like it's one live conversation that's out in the air and it disappears from Sunday. 00:18:00.140 --> 00:18:01.200 It stays there. 00:18:01.680 --> 00:18:03.940 People are talking about, they're seeing it all week long. 00:18:04.020 --> 00:18:04.760 They're seeing your win. 00:18:04.920 --> 00:18:07.320 So they're celebrating your win all week long with you. 00:18:07.420 --> 00:18:11.060 So imagine on Monday saying, I got a promotion on my job. 00:18:11.180 --> 00:18:17.160 And then Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, people are saying, congratulations, congratulations, congratulations all throughout the week. 00:18:17.260 --> 00:18:19.160 Now, how does that make you feel as an individual? 00:18:19.340 --> 00:18:20.560 One, it makes you feel valued. 00:18:20.680 --> 00:18:21.620 It makes you feel seen. 00:18:21.900 --> 00:18:22.900 It makes you feel loved. 00:18:23.260 --> 00:18:26.680 You can't do that in person because it's just a conversation that's out in the air and it's gone. 00:18:27.100 --> 00:18:29.340 But online, there's like this whole record of it. 00:18:29.340 --> 00:18:34.200 So, so basically what you have in Facebook is you have an on-demand community. 00:18:35.100 --> 00:18:41.000 It's, it's community on demand, which is what you can't do physically because you open and close the doors. 00:18:41.000 --> 00:18:41.320 Right? 00:18:41.420 --> 00:18:42.580 Which is obvious. 00:18:42.840 --> 00:18:45.000 I mean, you got to do that, but not, not online. 00:18:45.100 --> 00:18:48.840 So, so building community online with helping people connect with each other. 00:18:48.840 --> 00:18:55.620 Seeing what people are celebrating, creating a platform for that where they can celebrate with each other, support each other. 00:18:56.060 --> 00:18:57.400 Prayer requests are the same way. 00:18:57.740 --> 00:18:58.620 Please pray for me. 00:18:58.940 --> 00:19:03.100 My husband got diagnosed with COVID or my dad has Alzheimer's or whatever. 00:19:03.300 --> 00:19:08.080 And all throughout the week, you're seeing people supporting you, supporting you. 00:19:08.300 --> 00:19:11.420 And so it's, it's really cool to see those kinds of things happen. 00:19:11.760 --> 00:19:11.840 Yeah. 00:19:11.860 --> 00:19:18.620 I mean, you're referencing a lot of, of rich strategy here, building the relationships, utilizing the digital tools, Facebook. 00:19:18.620 --> 00:19:23.760 And, and yeah, I know Nona Jones's book is, is kind of rich in, in that digital strategy. 00:19:24.280 --> 00:19:26.460 Were you savvy digital? 00:19:26.460 --> 00:19:28.480 Like you're not in the age of digital native. 00:19:28.600 --> 00:19:36.700 I'm not going to out you on the air, but you and I are closer in age together than, than like a Gen Z or so, or a millennial or a, yeah. 00:19:36.900 --> 00:19:39.580 So tell me, like, were, were you native? 00:19:39.800 --> 00:19:42.800 Is this, is this a new skill that you, you've learned? 00:19:42.980 --> 00:19:45.060 Like what, what, what does that look like in your life? 00:19:45.360 --> 00:19:45.600 Yeah. 00:19:45.760 --> 00:19:46.340 Social media. 00:19:46.380 --> 00:19:47.860 I am native to social media. 00:19:48.200 --> 00:19:53.640 What was new for me was trying to figure out how can you do discipleship online? 00:19:53.920 --> 00:19:58.940 I love trying new things and experiment with, with new things, trying to learn the whole algorithm thing. 00:19:59.000 --> 00:19:59.980 How, how does that work? 00:20:00.060 --> 00:20:09.160 What, what posts will get people to engage and get people to talk and things like that, because there still are legitimate concerns about what's possible on social media. 00:20:09.540 --> 00:20:17.160 However, there are some legitimate benefits to social media that you don't even have online. 00:20:17.160 --> 00:20:22.780 And so looking at those, leaning on those, it just, it just makes the world a difference. 00:20:23.020 --> 00:20:24.600 It makes, it makes the world a difference. 00:20:24.900 --> 00:20:26.340 Let's, let's lean into that. 00:20:26.440 --> 00:20:27.200 I'm, I'm curious. 00:20:27.380 --> 00:20:31.840 Just to be honest, it surprised me that you don't consider it a church. 00:20:31.920 --> 00:20:34.340 You're utilizing the word digital community. 00:20:34.480 --> 00:20:35.720 I think that was what you said. 00:20:35.800 --> 00:20:37.260 I mean, that's, it's interesting. 00:20:37.400 --> 00:20:43.540 Even earlier today, I, I was talking to a guy that I thought would have called himself a pastor of a digital only church. 00:20:43.540 --> 00:20:47.660 And he's like, no, I don't, I don't, I don't consider what I do in virtual reality to be a church. 00:20:47.660 --> 00:20:49.020 I'm more of like a digital missionary. 00:20:49.400 --> 00:20:51.960 And so we're, words have meaning. 00:20:51.960 --> 00:21:00.720 And so, so I'm curious, like when you look at what you're, you're doing through Hearts Like His, why is it a discipleship community? 00:21:00.960 --> 00:21:02.860 Why do you not perceive it to be a church? 00:21:03.220 --> 00:21:05.660 What's missing kind of in that ecclesiology? 00:21:05.800 --> 00:21:07.860 Obviously, you've put some thought into that. 00:21:07.920 --> 00:21:10.340 What, what, what are kind of the strengths and weaknesses here? 00:21:10.640 --> 00:21:13.660 Yeah, well, let me just say, we're absolutely a digital church. 00:21:14.520 --> 00:21:16.180 I'm saying, yeah, yeah. 00:21:16.280 --> 00:21:23.780 I'm saying I don't call it that because of all the things attached to the word church for the people I'm trying to reach. 00:21:24.060 --> 00:21:25.080 That makes more sense. 00:21:25.160 --> 00:21:25.380 Okay. 00:21:25.520 --> 00:21:35.320 No, and that, because you're working, I apologize, because you're working with that de-churched audience, you're using safer language and safer terminology for them. 00:21:35.320 --> 00:21:35.720 Okay. 00:21:36.060 --> 00:21:48.860 And because everything that people think about, okay, so for example, you got way too many people that think that church is an activity, that church is a building, that church is an event, all that stuff. 00:21:49.280 --> 00:21:54.980 So when you say digital church, they think you're doing digital event or digital activity, right? 00:21:54.980 --> 00:22:03.080 So all of the, all of the unbiblical connotations that come with our American definition of church get attached when you call it digital. 00:22:03.660 --> 00:22:12.560 Because I am not trying to replicate what people's experience is, what the stage and the lights and the pastor with the microphone and, and the worship team and, and you sit in there as an audience. 00:22:12.640 --> 00:22:13.620 I'm not trying to replicate that. 00:22:13.820 --> 00:22:15.060 That's why I don't use the word church. 00:22:15.180 --> 00:22:18.480 Now, biblically, if we go X2, I'm absolutely a church. 00:22:19.540 --> 00:22:26.780 We're absolutely a church, but I just call it this option of community because the people I'm going to reach, I'm reaching for, they want to grow. 00:22:27.360 --> 00:22:29.160 They want to grow as discipleship. 00:22:29.260 --> 00:22:29.920 They want to be connected. 00:22:30.040 --> 00:22:30.600 There's community. 00:22:31.020 --> 00:22:36.480 So I have to call it a church for it to be a church, but it absolutely is a digital only church for sure. 00:22:37.680 --> 00:22:38.200 Love that. 00:22:38.300 --> 00:22:41.100 The way, the way that you said that earlier and there were other things, I was like, wait, wait, wait, wait. 00:22:41.120 --> 00:22:43.680 I want to come back to that one point. 00:22:44.120 --> 00:22:45.260 That's, that's, that's very good. 00:22:45.840 --> 00:22:48.420 Are you, are you, you know, it's interesting. 00:22:48.520 --> 00:22:57.260 Just recently we did a podcast on bivocational, co-vocational, you know, some, we've done, we've talked about some more interesting funding opportunities. 00:22:57.260 --> 00:23:03.020 And, and digital only pastors, I see a larger trend more towards bivocavo. 00:23:03.360 --> 00:23:05.480 Are you trying to be full time with this? 00:23:05.540 --> 00:23:09.380 Are you taking a more creative funding approach? 00:23:09.480 --> 00:23:12.120 Like what, what, what does that look like for you at a personal level? 00:23:12.480 --> 00:23:12.680 Yeah. 00:23:12.760 --> 00:23:14.640 For me, I do have a consulting business. 00:23:14.640 --> 00:23:19.020 And so that's where I, I, I'm, my main income is coming from. 00:23:19.120 --> 00:23:24.060 I don't, I don't have, um, I'm not taking a dime from what's coming in right now. 00:23:24.160 --> 00:23:27.500 Although, I mean, there are a lot of people saying, man, hearts like his, like, this is my church. 00:23:27.840 --> 00:23:28.500 This is my church. 00:23:28.500 --> 00:23:30.980 So there's money coming in, there's tithes and offerings coming in. 00:23:31.000 --> 00:23:38.260 And so we're in the process of, we got our 501, uh, uh, C3 and we're getting the whole nonprofit, you know, status and all that. 00:23:38.500 --> 00:23:41.680 So that, you know, people can get those benefits and all the kinds of things. 00:23:42.180 --> 00:23:55.520 Um, but I, I mainly use like funds from hearts like his to, you know, get, uh, software or like, like we try to restream for a little bit, you know, or, you know, things like that that helped me actually do the online stuff. 00:23:55.520 --> 00:24:03.400 But, um, but, but my main source of income is my own source of income is the consulting business that I do. 00:24:03.400 --> 00:24:08.460 And some of the things I do on the side, emotional intelligence workshop for church teams, vision planning. 00:24:09.080 --> 00:24:12.860 Uh, uh, leadership coaching for pastors, uh, those, those kinds of things. 00:24:12.960 --> 00:24:17.820 It's a lot of fun to do church when you're not trying to make a living off the church. 00:24:18.180 --> 00:24:18.620 Absolutely. 00:24:18.940 --> 00:24:20.020 There's so much freedom. 00:24:20.300 --> 00:24:21.720 And that's my, here's the deal. 00:24:21.800 --> 00:24:29.880 If I, if I was to transition to full-time online ministry, to me, that means I'm not leading well. 00:24:30.220 --> 00:24:30.700 Wow. 00:24:31.120 --> 00:24:31.540 Okay. 00:24:31.920 --> 00:24:32.680 Unpack that. 00:24:32.780 --> 00:24:33.560 I know, no, no, no, no, no. 00:24:33.560 --> 00:24:34.040 Keep going. 00:24:34.180 --> 00:24:34.840 I love that. 00:24:34.840 --> 00:24:35.420 Oh, okay. 00:24:35.780 --> 00:24:43.640 Because if I, if I turn this into, again, I don't want to replicate the same mistakes that some people are doing in person. 00:24:43.880 --> 00:24:46.400 They're not empowering the church to do, to be the church. 00:24:46.500 --> 00:24:48.300 So I don't want to lead everything. 00:24:48.300 --> 00:24:52.880 I don't want to, so if I create more work for myself online, that's a problem. 00:24:53.420 --> 00:25:05.920 Part of my goal is to empower people to, um, to do the work of the ministry because, because, because, you know, Ephesians four, it's the same online as it is in person. 00:25:06.140 --> 00:25:08.700 We are to equip the church to do the work of the ministry. 00:25:08.840 --> 00:25:11.640 So I don't want to make the same mistake a lot of pastors are doing right now. 00:25:11.800 --> 00:25:13.040 Everything focuses on them. 00:25:13.140 --> 00:25:15.880 Like if they can't do stuff, then the ministry doesn't go forward. 00:25:16.280 --> 00:25:17.980 No, that's, that's not where I'm, that's not. 00:25:18.040 --> 00:25:24.860 So I'm, I have no intention at all, ever to be full-time online, online pastor. 00:25:25.040 --> 00:25:28.460 Cause that means I'm doing some stuff that I should have equipped other people to do. 00:25:28.820 --> 00:25:32.360 Yeah, we did a, we did a podcast conversation with Sam, uh, Chaco. 00:25:32.600 --> 00:25:34.760 Who's, uh, one, he's with Stadia. 00:25:35.340 --> 00:25:39.580 Uh, he's one of the project managers Stadia, but he's, uh, oh man, Sam, I'm sorry. 00:25:39.740 --> 00:25:41.700 I'm blanking on the name of your church. 00:25:41.700 --> 00:25:44.420 He's lead pastor of, uh, of another church. 00:25:44.420 --> 00:25:46.740 I can maybe pull it up real quick, but I'm not going to make it in time. 00:25:47.100 --> 00:25:48.720 Anyway, Sam made the statement. 00:25:48.980 --> 00:25:51.700 He's like, I never don't want to be Bible Kobo. 00:25:51.900 --> 00:25:56.480 I lead my church in such a way that I know what my limitations are. 00:25:56.480 --> 00:26:02.600 And we're able to connect with other volunteers, other people, uh, to that. 00:26:02.660 --> 00:26:05.460 And, and so it's, it's not a overwork scenario. 00:26:05.860 --> 00:26:07.200 It's a dispersion. 00:26:07.200 --> 00:26:12.700 And it's really, it's a disciple making strategy, which, uh, and, and, and he, even hearing you 00:26:12.700 --> 00:26:17.140 say that I'd like, that was, it was when Sam said it maybe a couple of weeks ago in the 00:26:17.140 --> 00:26:19.020 podcast, I was like, man, this is incredible. 00:26:19.020 --> 00:26:20.800 I hadn't, I never thought of it that way. 00:26:20.820 --> 00:26:24.020 And hearing you resonate with that same idea, it's just a beautiful thing. 00:26:24.020 --> 00:26:27.080 So love, love your heart behind that. 00:26:27.540 --> 00:26:29.480 Um, do you find it difficult? 00:26:29.560 --> 00:26:30.260 I'm just curious. 00:26:30.740 --> 00:26:35.880 Uh, do you find your volunteers, the people that are active in your church and you're 00:26:35.880 --> 00:26:38.780 running new nine months or whatever, kind of down this road? 00:26:39.140 --> 00:26:43.960 Um, do they, do they understand that or do they view you as the professional Christian 00:26:43.960 --> 00:26:47.740 that needs to do the things that the pastor church person would do? 00:26:47.740 --> 00:26:49.120 Yeah, no, they get it. 00:26:49.120 --> 00:26:50.600 Cause I talk about it all the time. 00:26:51.000 --> 00:26:56.020 And, um, and so I have, uh, a couple of groups that different people lead. 00:26:56.080 --> 00:26:57.980 I didn't start off leading those groups. 00:26:57.980 --> 00:26:59.920 I wanted them to start off leading those groups. 00:27:00.400 --> 00:27:03.880 Um, and some that are, um, that are, are in person. 00:27:03.880 --> 00:27:08.980 And, and so, um, like there's another, there's a group starting here at a city about an hour 00:27:08.980 --> 00:27:09.500 from me. 00:27:10.040 --> 00:27:13.120 Um, and they're starting to get together more frequently. 00:27:13.120 --> 00:27:16.300 Like I want them to, to, to gather and, and things like that. 00:27:16.680 --> 00:27:21.420 And, uh, I could drive down there and lead it every, every other week or every, but I'm 00:27:21.420 --> 00:27:22.060 not going to do that. 00:27:22.200 --> 00:27:26.300 I was down there one time when they opened up her home for those who are geographically 00:27:26.300 --> 00:27:29.080 close together, who are in this hearts like his group. 00:27:29.240 --> 00:27:30.980 I went to speak at a church down there. 00:27:31.320 --> 00:27:35.540 And because of that, a lot of folks came out to hear me speak and, uh, and they live in 00:27:35.540 --> 00:27:36.200 a local area. 00:27:36.200 --> 00:27:41.600 And so when they opened up her home for everyone to gather and, um, and my encouragement to 00:27:41.600 --> 00:27:46.060 them was to keep on gathering, continue gathering, continue without me doing it, but you know, 00:27:46.060 --> 00:27:49.280 being there and, and, and they're doing that, they're doing that. 00:27:49.360 --> 00:27:54.840 And so that's where, um, now my role is to, is to back up that leader and say, this is 00:27:54.840 --> 00:28:00.560 not a help encourage you, train you, uh, things like that to keep, keep it going, keep connecting. 00:28:01.100 --> 00:28:03.700 And, but again, you know, one, okay. 00:28:03.700 --> 00:28:04.440 So here's the thing. 00:28:04.480 --> 00:28:07.120 One of the things, this is why I say to answer your question. 00:28:07.200 --> 00:28:11.340 Yes, they know, because one of the things that I've said frequently is that we're not 00:28:11.340 --> 00:28:15.940 gonna have a movement, a gospel movement in America without the redefining of two words. 00:28:16.200 --> 00:28:17.420 Pastor and church. 00:28:18.000 --> 00:28:22.520 Um, as long, as long as people think it's an event and activity, number one, they think 00:28:22.520 --> 00:28:24.900 they have to go to it and that they're not actually it. 00:28:25.400 --> 00:28:29.160 Um, one of the things you said before is like, pastor, don't be upset that you didn't, that 00:28:29.160 --> 00:28:30.040 you didn't have a building. 00:28:30.120 --> 00:28:32.580 Be upset that your people didn't have a purpose without the building, right? 00:28:32.580 --> 00:28:33.320 You're absolutely right. 00:28:33.440 --> 00:28:34.380 And why is that? 00:28:34.380 --> 00:28:36.800 Because the church has an identity crisis. 00:28:37.660 --> 00:28:42.160 And so, you know, like when COVID happened, pastors were like, you know, now it's time for 00:28:42.160 --> 00:28:43.400 us to be the church, right? 00:28:43.620 --> 00:28:45.040 Don't worry about not having the building. 00:28:45.100 --> 00:28:46.160 It's time for us to be the church. 00:28:46.640 --> 00:28:50.020 No, it was always time for us to be the church. 00:28:50.300 --> 00:28:53.920 If you have to say that you're, you, you are confessing, you missed the mark. 00:28:54.100 --> 00:28:56.880 If you have to tell your people it's time to be the church. 00:28:57.100 --> 00:28:58.460 Well, what are you talking about? 00:28:58.560 --> 00:28:59.920 It's been time to be the church. 00:29:00.100 --> 00:29:04.060 And you're actually hinting to the fact that they don't know how to do it without the building. 00:29:05.280 --> 00:29:09.200 And so I'm not going to replicate some of those, those same things online. 00:29:09.200 --> 00:29:11.180 So I'm not going to shift people's perspective. 00:29:11.720 --> 00:29:13.180 What does it mean to be a pastor? 00:29:14.380 --> 00:29:16.480 Biblically, it's the word shepherd, right? 00:29:16.800 --> 00:29:18.200 What does it mean to be a church? 00:29:18.580 --> 00:29:22.920 If you are the church, like I was telling this lady a couple weeks ago, and she has, she has 00:29:22.920 --> 00:29:26.700 a group in her home of eight people that she started on her own, right? 00:29:26.700 --> 00:29:28.280 And she has a recovery background. 00:29:28.400 --> 00:29:29.720 So a lot of these folks are recovery people. 00:29:29.920 --> 00:29:30.600 Some are there. 00:29:30.700 --> 00:29:34.240 They just now got saved or they're not quite saved yet, but they, but they're coming, right? 00:29:34.260 --> 00:29:34.680 They're coming. 00:29:35.120 --> 00:29:38.040 And so she has quite a few who are saved and she's discipling them. 00:29:39.000 --> 00:29:41.960 And I said, I said, so how long you been having this church? 00:29:42.020 --> 00:29:42.740 And I did on purpose. 00:29:43.100 --> 00:29:44.260 How long you been having this church? 00:29:44.780 --> 00:29:46.800 And she goes, oh no, it's not a church. 00:29:46.820 --> 00:29:47.640 It's just a Bible study. 00:29:47.740 --> 00:29:48.200 Oh, okay. 00:29:48.420 --> 00:29:48.740 Okay. 00:29:49.300 --> 00:29:49.620 All right. 00:29:50.140 --> 00:29:51.240 I said, let me ask you this question. 00:29:51.440 --> 00:29:56.340 If you're doing exactly what you're doing right now, same number of people, same activity, 00:29:56.580 --> 00:30:02.300 and you were at, you were in a remote province in China, would you call that a church? 00:30:02.460 --> 00:30:03.240 She goes, well, yeah. 00:30:08.460 --> 00:30:10.000 Theology changes in China. 00:30:10.120 --> 00:30:10.460 Who knew? 00:30:10.940 --> 00:30:11.560 Isn't that something? 00:30:11.640 --> 00:30:13.800 I said, what, I said, what's, what's different? 00:30:13.960 --> 00:30:15.140 What's different in America then? 00:30:15.660 --> 00:30:18.180 Anyhow, my whole point is that's my approach. 00:30:18.300 --> 00:30:25.040 And so to help people who are on, who are in my group, I want them to create house churches. 00:30:26.040 --> 00:30:30.200 And they know that unless they're brand new, like two weeks ago or something like that, 00:30:30.200 --> 00:30:32.120 but they know I want, I want to empower you. 00:30:32.160 --> 00:30:32.580 I want to equip. 00:30:32.660 --> 00:30:33.780 I talk about it all the time. 00:30:34.180 --> 00:30:35.000 I talk about the church. 00:30:35.080 --> 00:30:37.800 Hey, send me a DM, put in the comments. 00:30:37.800 --> 00:30:41.420 If you're interested in hosting something at home, let's talk, let's talk, let's talk. 00:30:42.280 --> 00:30:45.220 Um, and so redefining pastor, right? 00:30:45.360 --> 00:30:47.860 People go, I'm not, I'm not a, I'm not a pastor all the time. 00:30:47.900 --> 00:30:48.420 I'm not a pastor. 00:30:48.560 --> 00:30:49.840 Well, Tim, what does the pastor do? 00:30:50.080 --> 00:30:52.520 Well, a pastor, you know, they're, they're speaking about a microphone. 00:30:52.620 --> 00:30:53.040 They're on stage. 00:30:53.160 --> 00:30:53.480 Okay. 00:30:53.680 --> 00:30:54.020 Okay. 00:30:54.140 --> 00:30:56.780 See, no, no, no. 00:30:56.780 --> 00:31:02.420 In the Bible, no pastor had a microphone, a stage, a worship team, a salary, a building, 00:31:02.720 --> 00:31:05.400 a staff, a seminary degree, an ordination. 00:31:05.860 --> 00:31:07.660 Like, like, like, like, let's, let's get real. 00:31:08.220 --> 00:31:14.000 And so these, so I'm, I'm creating a whole different culture for people, um, in the, in 00:31:14.000 --> 00:31:14.400 this group. 00:31:14.400 --> 00:31:18.800 And so many people are just relieved because the passion that they had stirring inside of 00:31:18.800 --> 00:31:24.840 them was kind of boxed up into a particular model where pastor didn't see them as being 00:31:24.840 --> 00:31:27.460 valid gifts, valid callings, valid, whatever. 00:31:27.740 --> 00:31:30.440 So here, as we just get to, what does the Bible say about church? 00:31:30.520 --> 00:31:33.460 What does the Bible say about being a pastor or slash shepherd? 00:31:33.860 --> 00:31:39.220 People are being, being freed up, they're being freed up to go out and do what they're, what 00:31:39.220 --> 00:31:39.820 they need to do. 00:31:39.920 --> 00:31:42.480 And it's not like they're just, you know, random rogue people. 00:31:42.600 --> 00:31:44.220 I'm, I'm encouraging them, right? 00:31:44.240 --> 00:31:45.320 I've, I've got a doctorate degree. 00:31:45.360 --> 00:31:46.000 Like I'm legit. 00:31:46.360 --> 00:31:47.100 I'm ordained. 00:31:47.160 --> 00:31:48.160 I know what I'm talking about. 00:31:48.540 --> 00:31:49.040 You know? 00:31:49.380 --> 00:31:54.120 And so if I, if I, if I say, no, this is what the Bible says, and let's look at it. 00:31:54.180 --> 00:31:55.760 You can see, this is what the Bible says. 00:31:55.900 --> 00:32:00.340 And you're separating biblical truth from your American version of what you, what you were 00:32:00.340 --> 00:32:00.680 taught. 00:32:01.020 --> 00:32:03.940 Now we're looking at some freedom, some empowerment. 00:32:04.500 --> 00:32:07.820 Um, and some people are just, there's off to the races. 00:32:07.820 --> 00:32:12.700 So there's a lot of deconstructing of, of religiosity, not deconstructing the Christian 00:32:12.700 --> 00:32:17.520 faith, but deconstructing some religiosity that we're getting down to the power of the 00:32:17.520 --> 00:32:17.860 gospel. 00:32:18.280 --> 00:32:20.420 And, uh, and I'm doing it in digital space. 00:32:21.040 --> 00:32:24.180 Um, yeah, it's just, yeah. 00:32:26.580 --> 00:32:27.300 It's beautiful. 00:32:27.440 --> 00:32:30.780 I didn't realize, I didn't realize you were doing micro as well. 00:32:30.780 --> 00:32:36.880 So you, I mean, really like the Angela Craig strategy and she grew pursue church live towards 00:32:36.880 --> 00:32:38.120 micro at the end. 00:32:38.200 --> 00:32:43.520 So you're, you're adopting, I mean, pretty much that, that philosophy and, and, and doing 00:32:43.520 --> 00:32:46.340 that, uh, through hearts like his, that's, that's beautiful. 00:32:46.340 --> 00:32:49.580 I, I love digital churches that grow micro. 00:32:49.700 --> 00:32:54.200 It's funny, just even, even today, like I was, was talking with Rob Wagner about some 00:32:54.200 --> 00:32:59.640 things about how digital Rob Wagner's with Casey underground and, and how the digital and 00:32:59.640 --> 00:33:02.680 micro are so tightly intertwined together. 00:33:02.680 --> 00:33:09.640 And philosophically the, the, the, the, the, the practices that micro is, is used to grow 00:33:09.640 --> 00:33:14.820 micro churches and, and to, to plant micro leaders and missionaries and digital can, can 00:33:14.820 --> 00:33:18.160 apply many of those same philosophies in their examples of church. 00:33:18.160 --> 00:33:20.020 And man, you're showing that that that's beautiful. 00:33:20.280 --> 00:33:25.160 Even with his, his Rob, Rob's book, the starfish in the spirit, it's the same concept digitally. 00:33:25.500 --> 00:33:28.700 You can do it digitally and it's much easier to do it digitally. 00:33:29.500 --> 00:33:32.620 Um, and, uh, it's, it's, it's natural. 00:33:32.880 --> 00:33:38.620 And here, here's a thing I want to throw out in, in church refugees, Josh Packard, uh, 00:33:38.620 --> 00:33:42.340 the book came out in 2015, the book came out in 2015, or I saw the report in 2015. 00:33:42.580 --> 00:33:46.200 My point is this, uh, we all know the 80, 20 rule, right? 00:33:46.260 --> 00:33:48.700 20% of our people are doing 80% of the work. 00:33:48.780 --> 00:33:52.300 I mean, these volunteers, I mean, they're, they're gifted, they're talented, they're serving, 00:33:52.400 --> 00:33:55.440 they're tithing, they're giving their whatever on staff, whatever. 00:33:56.240 --> 00:34:00.480 Uh, the, the millions of people who are leaving their churches, right? 00:34:00.560 --> 00:34:05.500 This, this exodus from the church, it's not out of the 80%, it's out of the 20%, 00:34:05.500 --> 00:34:08.480 which is a massive problem. 00:34:08.800 --> 00:34:13.780 So then if I'm targeting those people who have left, I'm not targeting brand new believers 00:34:13.780 --> 00:34:19.220 for the most part, I'm targeting people who've left, but the people who have skills, 00:34:19.340 --> 00:34:24.120 they're leaders, they're gifted, they're experienced, they're mature, right? 00:34:24.120 --> 00:34:27.480 And so they're, they're not people who need to start from ground zero. 00:34:27.740 --> 00:34:32.560 They're people who need to, who need to discover that if one church expression was not working 00:34:32.560 --> 00:34:37.100 for you, then there are other church expressions that are out there that are valid, biblical, 00:34:37.520 --> 00:34:40.700 um, kingdom advancing and, and can fit for you. 00:34:40.820 --> 00:34:43.600 It could be digital, could be house, I don't, I don't, I really don't care. 00:34:43.760 --> 00:34:46.700 I'm for the church to win in whatever expression, right? 00:34:46.740 --> 00:34:48.740 And we talked about multimodal with, with stadia. 00:34:48.860 --> 00:34:55.600 I'm for the church to win in whatever expression, mega, micro, digital, uh, digital, um, house 00:34:55.600 --> 00:34:55.880 church. 00:34:55.960 --> 00:34:59.980 I really don't care, but I want people to become like Jesus by the power of the Holy 00:34:59.980 --> 00:35:00.360 spirit. 00:35:01.000 --> 00:35:02.100 And it is what it is. 00:35:02.500 --> 00:35:05.960 And so in this context, people are finding that freedom because they were, they were, 00:35:06.060 --> 00:35:08.680 they were discovering some changes that were holding them back. 00:35:09.160 --> 00:35:12.300 And, um, a lot of it's just being, it's just being released. 00:35:12.300 --> 00:35:13.180 It's really, it's really good. 00:35:13.180 --> 00:35:18.040 But I will also say this, a big, a big part of, of the discipleship, uh, spiritual formation 00:35:18.040 --> 00:35:19.280 that's happening in our group. 00:35:19.280 --> 00:35:21.860 It's not just the model itself as far as digital. 00:35:22.140 --> 00:35:23.300 It's my message. 00:35:23.520 --> 00:35:28.180 I'm talking about the gospel every single week since January 5th, it has been the message 00:35:28.180 --> 00:35:34.020 about the father's love, uh, through Jesus Christ and how the spirit of God is making 00:35:34.020 --> 00:35:35.200 us more and more like Christ. 00:35:35.320 --> 00:35:40.600 And so that message, that's, that's, that's another, that's the other track. 00:35:40.600 --> 00:35:41.320 If you're looking at Dr. 00:35:41.380 --> 00:35:46.700 Rowell tracks, you got digital ministry is one of those rails, but the message of the 00:35:46.700 --> 00:35:50.560 gospel, specifically the father's love is the other rail. 00:35:50.820 --> 00:35:52.600 And that's what's, that's, what's transformational. 00:35:53.200 --> 00:35:54.300 Love that so much there. 00:35:54.460 --> 00:35:55.180 Oh my gosh. 00:35:55.300 --> 00:35:59.460 We, we had Rob on talking about starfish in the spirit here on the podcast. 00:36:00.000 --> 00:36:01.720 Chesley Lundy was, was on as well. 00:36:01.800 --> 00:36:07.280 He's a digital planter with King city church, uh, just officially launched maybe, uh, early 00:36:07.280 --> 00:36:07.800 September. 00:36:07.800 --> 00:36:12.800 And man, what a great podcast talking about that, uh, and, and love the kind of the multiplication 00:36:12.800 --> 00:36:15.440 heart behind all, all this stuff. 00:36:15.440 --> 00:36:18.200 Uh, even the things got gospel since January. 00:36:18.200 --> 00:36:24.580 I mean, just reinforcing that, um, and, and, and the, the focus of the one where you're 00:36:24.580 --> 00:36:31.160 trying to reach to, to the, to the de-churched to the damaged, um, and, and the, the restoration 00:36:31.160 --> 00:36:33.780 of that, not back to a model. 00:36:33.780 --> 00:36:36.260 Like I'm, I'm going to, we'll put the book in the show notes. 00:36:36.780 --> 00:36:40.240 Um, I've, I've got the info here, Josh Packard, church refugee. 00:36:40.600 --> 00:36:42.100 I'm, I'm going to put that on my list. 00:36:42.140 --> 00:36:43.340 I wasn't familiar with that book. 00:36:43.380 --> 00:36:45.740 I'll, I'll be reading that one here very soon. 00:36:46.000 --> 00:36:50.520 Well, Hey, I want to pivot towards something and, and I'm going to ask just even, even 00:36:50.520 --> 00:36:51.220 with the audience. 00:36:51.420 --> 00:36:57.340 So, uh, I'm a 44 year old white man, uh, who is trying to understand things that he doesn't 00:36:57.340 --> 00:37:00.200 understand, uh, in, in context of, of race. 00:37:00.420 --> 00:37:04.940 And so some leniency here, I'm even afraid like to have this conversation that I'm going 00:37:04.940 --> 00:37:05.780 to say something stupid. 00:37:05.780 --> 00:37:06.800 I'm going to try not to. 00:37:06.800 --> 00:37:10.380 And the good news is I've got people who edit me after I say it. 00:37:10.380 --> 00:37:14.000 And so even if I say something stupid, it'll probably be cut out. 00:37:14.000 --> 00:37:19.280 And even this conversation right here may not even make it to the podcast, but, um, I mean, 00:37:19.340 --> 00:37:23.760 and, and, and obviously if you're watching this on YouTube or on social, uh, you know, 00:37:23.840 --> 00:37:28.680 Dr. Harris here is, is a black man who's leading a digital church. 00:37:28.680 --> 00:37:35.260 And, uh, I, and you mentioned earlier, uh, the, the, the context of Myron, you know, who's 00:37:35.260 --> 00:37:41.560 done a, uh, a great job championing digital and planting things out of that over the years, 00:37:41.560 --> 00:37:43.540 um, in the grand scheme of things. 00:37:43.540 --> 00:37:49.300 And, and, and, and actually I had a African-American pastor tell me this once a lead pastor of a 00:37:49.300 --> 00:37:55.420 church I was working with pre COVID Jeff, African-American churches are easily a decade behind the rest 00:37:55.420 --> 00:37:57.400 of America, technologically speaking. 00:37:57.840 --> 00:38:04.320 And so honestly, like we don't, I don't see a lot of, or I do now, you know, and started now 00:38:04.320 --> 00:38:09.080 COVID a lot of African-American churches are stepping up and, and running to that. 00:38:09.080 --> 00:38:13.900 And, and through stadia, we've helped it a number, uh, of, um, you know, different culture 00:38:13.900 --> 00:38:19.440 churches kind of address a, a digital approach within your church. 00:38:19.780 --> 00:38:22.220 Does, what role does race play? 00:38:22.220 --> 00:38:28.380 And, and, and I mean this completely innocently, like, is it culturally, is it a, is it an African-American 00:38:28.380 --> 00:38:28.940 church? 00:38:29.320 --> 00:38:35.160 Does African-American culture or any culture, does that transpose into digital space? 00:38:35.360 --> 00:38:38.720 These are questions that I just wrestle with and, and I'd love your take. 00:38:38.720 --> 00:38:39.200 Yeah. 00:38:39.300 --> 00:38:45.780 I think if a church is, um, homogenous in person, it's going to be homogenous online. 00:38:47.480 --> 00:38:52.680 And, you know, if a church is multicultural in person, it's going to be multicultural online. 00:38:53.680 --> 00:38:59.940 And so hearts like his, is, is, is multicultural and, um, and, you know, not just multi-ethnic, 00:39:00.020 --> 00:39:00.860 but multicultural. 00:39:01.040 --> 00:39:02.920 And I would, I would define the difference. 00:39:03.140 --> 00:39:05.740 Multi-ethnic is really kind of like being integrated. 00:39:06.080 --> 00:39:10.980 Uh, you have multiple ethnicities that are present, but their issues are not talked about. 00:39:11.660 --> 00:39:14.780 Uh, their concerns are not talked about. 00:39:14.840 --> 00:39:16.720 Their heritages are not talked about. 00:39:16.800 --> 00:39:23.800 They're just there and, and you still have in a lot of those contexts, the, um, the predominant, 00:39:23.800 --> 00:39:32.080 uh, more of a Caucasian theology, um, and, and, and bent, even though the congregation is 00:39:32.080 --> 00:39:34.340 integrated, people say, oh, it's multi-ethnic. 00:39:34.680 --> 00:39:36.940 I don't think the goal is multi-ethnic. 00:39:36.940 --> 00:39:43.220 I think the goal is multicultural, um, where everybody is embraced, you see, which is a little 00:39:43.220 --> 00:39:43.600 different. 00:39:43.900 --> 00:39:48.000 So for example, in hearts like his, at the very beginning of the year, matter of fact, 00:39:48.000 --> 00:39:51.380 in February, I was like, we're not going to just talk about African-American history month 00:39:51.380 --> 00:39:53.860 because I'm African-American, right? 00:39:54.340 --> 00:40:00.000 Um, we're going to talk about how that other, other, other, uh, ethnic months and, and celebrations. 00:40:00.000 --> 00:40:05.020 And so, uh, like right now it's a Hispanic heritage month that started in the middle of September 00:40:05.020 --> 00:40:06.180 going to the middle of October. 00:40:06.440 --> 00:40:07.740 So we're going to highlight that. 00:40:07.840 --> 00:40:12.560 And we highlight like, and we, I encourage other people to put things in there, highlight 00:40:12.560 --> 00:40:17.700 things from that particular celebration, uh, ethnic celebration of interesting fact that 00:40:17.700 --> 00:40:18.820 you learned and shared in the group. 00:40:18.860 --> 00:40:20.320 And we're going to, we're going to highlight it. 00:40:20.320 --> 00:40:26.220 And so, because I think that's kingdom kingdom, isn't, uh, come instead of the table because 00:40:26.220 --> 00:40:30.880 we want to be politically correct and look diverse and equitable and inclusive. 00:40:32.460 --> 00:40:35.100 It's not about aesthetics, right? 00:40:35.200 --> 00:40:36.100 It's not about that. 00:40:36.140 --> 00:40:42.720 It's about, I see you who you are and I accept who you are and I want to hear your story and 00:40:42.720 --> 00:40:45.640 I want to hear how your story and my story fit in the God story. 00:40:45.740 --> 00:40:49.480 And I want, you know, all that it's just, so there's a different dynamic there, but, but 00:40:49.480 --> 00:40:54.400 to your point, no, um, harsh like kids is multicultural. 00:40:54.400 --> 00:40:55.920 And so there's people all over. 00:40:56.000 --> 00:41:00.500 If you go, um, one of the things we recently started doing, which I, I didn't think about 00:41:00.500 --> 00:41:05.580 this until just now, because it actually shows this is, uh, me and my wife, when we're teaching 00:41:05.580 --> 00:41:09.560 on Wednesdays, we used to do just Facebook life, like from our computer, iPad, whatever. 00:41:09.560 --> 00:41:13.540 And we're sitting there and everyone who's participating is commenting in the, in the chat. 00:41:13.540 --> 00:41:18.260 You can see people's names and a little profile picture, but mainly just their chat. 00:41:18.400 --> 00:41:23.760 What we start, what we just started to do is, um, is combine the teaching with small group 00:41:23.760 --> 00:41:24.680 time, right? 00:41:24.700 --> 00:41:28.040 So now the five to six 30 is now broken up. 00:41:28.100 --> 00:41:30.760 We're meeting on zoom, zoom streams live in the Facebook. 00:41:31.080 --> 00:41:32.280 We're meeting on zoom. 00:41:32.480 --> 00:41:35.520 I send out the link so people can actually join the zoom call. 00:41:35.520 --> 00:41:37.720 So now we can talk live with the discussion. 00:41:37.820 --> 00:41:42.100 But then after my teaching, which is shorter now, I put them into small groups. 00:41:42.400 --> 00:41:45.180 So I combine teaching and small groups all in the same night. 00:41:45.320 --> 00:41:46.620 Now here's, here's my point. 00:41:47.060 --> 00:41:50.420 When I, when we're on zoom like that, you can see everybody's face. 00:41:50.860 --> 00:41:51.260 Yeah. 00:41:51.700 --> 00:41:52.480 Which is a little different. 00:41:52.760 --> 00:41:59.920 So, so you can see, um, uh, people all across the country, uh, all different kinds of ethnicities 00:41:59.920 --> 00:42:01.100 all on here. 00:42:01.780 --> 00:42:06.640 And, um, and you know, early this year, when the, when let's, for example, when I was talking 00:42:06.640 --> 00:42:11.700 about dealing with different issues, when the George Floyd, um, uh, what the cop's name 00:42:11.700 --> 00:42:12.000 now? 00:42:12.000 --> 00:42:13.940 Uh, uh, uh, wow. 00:42:13.940 --> 00:42:17.060 I can't believe I forgot his name, but the guy who, who killed the officer who killed 00:42:17.060 --> 00:42:18.800 George, Derek Chauvin, right? 00:42:18.840 --> 00:42:21.860 When Derek Chauvin, that, when the verdict came out, we're not going to ignore that. 00:42:21.900 --> 00:42:26.200 We're going to talk about it because even though some people in our community might not actually 00:42:26.200 --> 00:42:26.520 care. 00:42:26.880 --> 00:42:29.200 There are others who care very deeply about what happened. 00:42:29.340 --> 00:42:31.320 So we're going to talk about it from a kingdom perspective. 00:42:31.380 --> 00:42:32.040 We're not going to ignore that. 00:42:32.160 --> 00:42:36.240 So in a multi and a quote unquote, multi-ethnic church, right? 00:42:36.280 --> 00:42:38.840 A lot of white pastors, they might not even talk about it at all. 00:42:39.520 --> 00:42:40.580 They don't want to offend anybody. 00:42:41.400 --> 00:42:41.760 Right. 00:42:42.180 --> 00:42:47.180 But if you're multicultural, you're going to talk about it because it affects other people 00:42:47.180 --> 00:42:49.140 and their cultural experiences. 00:42:49.280 --> 00:42:51.560 See, that's an example of what I'm talking about with, with the difference. 00:42:51.880 --> 00:42:54.160 So now we're going to talk about that in, in Hearts Like His. 00:42:54.540 --> 00:42:58.140 I, it's, it's, it's just, it's something, and I've wrestled with this in, in this, in the, 00:42:58.140 --> 00:43:02.420 in the COVID season, as you've seen more and more churches come on and, you know, being 00:43:02.420 --> 00:43:08.620 down here in, in Miami, um, there's, there's very, um, very bled culturally, it's very 00:43:08.620 --> 00:43:09.040 blended. 00:43:09.660 --> 00:43:13.220 Uh, and, and so like, you know, the churches that, that I work with, the church that I 00:43:13.220 --> 00:43:19.940 attend, uh, reality church, it's, it's a, it's a beautiful mix of, of Hispanic, African-American, 00:43:20.180 --> 00:43:20.480 white. 00:43:20.480 --> 00:43:23.540 And what's, what's fascinating is it's so blended down here. 00:43:23.640 --> 00:43:28.940 Like it's very common to see, um, blended nationalities where, where, or blended race, 00:43:28.940 --> 00:43:31.960 where, where children are a mix of black and white or Hispanic. 00:43:31.960 --> 00:43:36.200 And, but, and, and, and it's just, it's like race doesn't mean anything down here anymore. 00:43:36.200 --> 00:43:39.220 And just within, within my little bubble, it's funny. 00:43:39.240 --> 00:43:43.420 Like I talked to people outside and they're like, man, I wish I could live in Miami because 00:43:43.420 --> 00:43:45.980 of, of kind of how race is down here. 00:43:46.060 --> 00:43:48.340 And I'm like, if you could afford it, come on down. 00:43:48.340 --> 00:43:50.580 But it's, it's kind of hard, it's kind of hard to afford living here. 00:43:50.720 --> 00:43:52.380 Uh, just, just a little side thing. 00:43:52.860 --> 00:43:53.800 Well, I'm in California. 00:43:53.800 --> 00:43:54.960 So here we go. 00:43:57.560 --> 00:43:59.380 Oh, so you, you, yeah, you feel the pain. 00:43:59.800 --> 00:44:05.420 Um, but the, you know, the heart of it is, is, are we really, and I, I like that because 00:44:05.420 --> 00:44:08.720 you're, you're separating multicultural with multi-ethnic. 00:44:08.900 --> 00:44:13.300 Like if, if you're, you know, I just, I've been wrestling with like, if, if your culture 00:44:13.300 --> 00:44:20.120 is being seen, if you're having cultural conversations, if you're representing from the stage, from like 00:44:20.120 --> 00:44:27.340 the, the environments that are there, uh, so often it's a, um, uh, you know, I don't know 00:44:27.340 --> 00:44:29.080 what the word is, but it's very monoculture. 00:44:29.300 --> 00:44:30.340 I think you said that earlier. 00:44:30.500 --> 00:44:34.080 It's very monocultural approach with a multicultural environment. 00:44:34.080 --> 00:44:39.580 And that's, to me, that, that's been, that doesn't make your church multi, but you separate 00:44:39.580 --> 00:44:39.760 it. 00:44:39.820 --> 00:44:42.980 It doesn't make your church multi-ethnic, I think is what you said. 00:44:43.100 --> 00:44:44.920 It makes you maybe multicultural. 00:44:45.280 --> 00:44:46.080 It doesn't make it multicultural. 00:44:46.720 --> 00:44:46.980 Okay. 00:44:47.020 --> 00:44:49.180 You may be multi-ethnic, but you're not multicultural. 00:44:49.660 --> 00:44:50.020 Correct. 00:44:50.180 --> 00:44:50.380 Right. 00:44:50.480 --> 00:44:50.680 Right. 00:44:50.700 --> 00:44:54.260 The ethnicities are present, but their, but their cultures are not embraced. 00:44:54.560 --> 00:44:54.760 Yeah. 00:44:54.820 --> 00:44:57.620 And that's been, I'm just going to be completely transparent here. 00:44:58.060 --> 00:45:02.540 That's the separation I've been looking for because I'm like, just be, just because you've 00:45:02.540 --> 00:45:09.520 got different people in the audience doesn't make you embracing to your language, the cultures 00:45:09.520 --> 00:45:10.880 of those people. 00:45:11.080 --> 00:45:15.200 There's ethnicities that are represented, but their cultures are absent. 00:45:15.200 --> 00:45:20.620 And so understanding that multicultural piece, you just helped me in, in, in a big way. 00:45:20.680 --> 00:45:24.800 Uh, and so even, even in my own life, man, I want to, I want to start to have some of those 00:45:24.800 --> 00:45:26.940 conversations and, and wrestle with that more. 00:45:27.060 --> 00:45:28.200 So, so thank you for that. 00:45:28.260 --> 00:45:31.340 Hey, I want to ask you one last question. 00:45:32.120 --> 00:45:35.020 And, um, and this is another one of these, these may be loaded. 00:45:35.440 --> 00:45:41.700 Uh, I, I get, I get people asking me this and, and I don't, I don't know how to respond 00:45:41.700 --> 00:45:42.200 to it. 00:45:42.520 --> 00:45:47.380 You, I mean, you, you, you referenced, uh, the, the, the Facebook book earlier, Nona Jones. 00:45:47.860 --> 00:45:54.440 Um, and so, and she's with Facebook wrote that literally it's a playbook for, uh, church 00:45:54.440 --> 00:46:00.040 strategy on Facebook, incredible resource on the Facebook platform, you know, and then, 00:46:00.040 --> 00:46:02.200 and then we'll see Zuckerberg do something stupid. 00:46:02.200 --> 00:46:09.200 And then you'll see, you know, uh, news about stuff they're doing with their apps and privacy. 00:46:09.620 --> 00:46:16.240 And you, do you, I mean, but you built your entire strategy or the chunk of your strategy 00:46:16.240 --> 00:46:17.860 digitally on Facebook. 00:46:17.860 --> 00:46:20.020 Like, do you have a backup plan? 00:46:20.140 --> 00:46:21.360 Do you trust them? 00:46:21.560 --> 00:46:23.860 Like, uh, sometimes I love Facebook. 00:46:23.960 --> 00:46:27.860 Sometimes I'm like, I don't, I don't know that I want to like actually trust them enough 00:46:27.860 --> 00:46:30.580 to build something like what you've done on them. 00:46:30.640 --> 00:46:33.360 I'm just curious, kind of what's your, what's your mindset on that? 00:46:33.520 --> 00:46:37.560 Well, when you, when you join the Facebook group, there are three questions and a question 00:46:37.560 --> 00:46:39.860 number one says, what is your email? 00:46:40.080 --> 00:46:44.500 And then in parentheses, it says, we are not going to spam you. 00:46:44.640 --> 00:46:46.340 We'll send you an occasional announcement. 00:46:46.340 --> 00:46:48.860 But for the most part, should we choose to leave Facebook? 00:46:48.980 --> 00:46:50.260 We want to be able to connect with you. 00:46:50.360 --> 00:46:50.820 That's smart. 00:46:50.960 --> 00:46:52.080 That's question number one. 00:46:52.140 --> 00:46:58.640 So, so when you join the Facebook group, you know, from question number one, our departure 00:46:58.640 --> 00:47:00.600 from Facebook, it could happen. 00:47:01.680 --> 00:47:09.460 So, so I'm gathering everyone's emails because if they decide to act crazy, then, um, I can 00:47:09.460 --> 00:47:11.160 just email everyone and say, Hey, here we are. 00:47:11.160 --> 00:47:16.060 And here's a link to our new software, to our new community and, uh, looking forward to 00:47:16.060 --> 00:47:17.020 connecting with you here. 00:47:17.180 --> 00:47:17.420 Boom. 00:47:17.500 --> 00:47:17.840 That's it. 00:47:17.900 --> 00:47:18.300 Just done. 00:47:18.420 --> 00:47:21.960 But that's the main reason why I collect everybody's email when they, when they join the 00:47:21.960 --> 00:47:22.160 group. 00:47:22.440 --> 00:47:26.960 So I don't have, because there are people who, you know, when Facebook censored them, 00:47:27.020 --> 00:47:29.880 whether it be on Facebook or Instagram and accounts got shut down. 00:47:29.880 --> 00:47:33.520 I know one influencer, Christian influencer, the account got shut down. 00:47:33.740 --> 00:47:36.960 She lost like 2 million followers overnight. 00:47:37.160 --> 00:47:37.400 Bam. 00:47:37.520 --> 00:47:44.020 Couldn't even, I mean, just all the years of content and whatever reputation and relationship 00:47:44.020 --> 00:47:45.060 done. 00:47:45.320 --> 00:47:48.220 I don't want anyone to have that kind of power over, over the ministry. 00:47:48.660 --> 00:47:51.480 And so, um, so no, no, we're not yet. 00:47:51.540 --> 00:47:56.960 So it's possible that, um, I'm, I'm ready to go whenever, if they decide to do that. 00:47:57.020 --> 00:48:02.380 But the thing is, what I don't want to do is hesitate to connect with people on Facebook 00:48:02.380 --> 00:48:07.220 because of the drama, because it's, it's digitally dangerous, right? 00:48:07.220 --> 00:48:13.440 I'm a missionary and, and, and online space is, is, is uncharted territory for a whole lot 00:48:13.440 --> 00:48:13.820 of people. 00:48:13.820 --> 00:48:17.100 So I get that their risk for me, it's not the Congo. 00:48:17.240 --> 00:48:18.920 It's not poisonous snakes and spiders. 00:48:19.240 --> 00:48:21.340 It's, it's a potential for them to act up. 00:48:21.660 --> 00:48:25.720 But, um, but I've got from, from a military perspective, right? 00:48:25.720 --> 00:48:30.800 We, you talk, anybody in the military who's active duty, they, they call it a, um, uh, 00:48:30.920 --> 00:48:33.540 oh, but I kept, oh, nine years and I can't remember what it's called now. 00:48:34.000 --> 00:48:36.040 Uh, it's a little bag with all of our stuff. 00:48:36.040 --> 00:48:39.020 Like if anything went down, we grabbed that bag and we're, we're out. 00:48:39.260 --> 00:48:42.120 I'm guessing fanny pack is not the right word. 00:48:42.280 --> 00:48:45.120 That is absolutely not the right word at all. 00:48:45.320 --> 00:48:48.000 It's not, it is, you can't put this on your fanny. 00:48:48.100 --> 00:48:48.820 I'll tell you that. 00:48:49.420 --> 00:48:53.920 Um, but it's kind of, uh, uh, uh, it's on the tip of my tongue. 00:48:54.000 --> 00:48:54.700 I can't believe it. 00:48:54.760 --> 00:48:57.680 There are, there are veterans listening to this right now who are saying it out loud. 00:48:58.320 --> 00:48:59.520 They're trying to help me out. 00:49:00.060 --> 00:49:03.160 Um, anyhow, I'll think of it as soon as this is over. 00:49:03.280 --> 00:49:07.880 But yeah, but the point is I can, I can up and leave anytime and, and I put things in 00:49:07.880 --> 00:49:08.920 place to do just that. 00:49:08.920 --> 00:49:11.000 So I think that's so important. 00:49:11.000 --> 00:49:16.700 Even if you're a physical church, that's doing digital ministry, um, have a backup plan, 00:49:16.780 --> 00:49:21.880 have an escape route, have, uh, listen, and, and, and I've heard even outside of the church 00:49:21.880 --> 00:49:27.240 world, people say this, if you don't pay for the product, then you are the product. 00:49:27.500 --> 00:49:33.280 And, and, and Facebook has, has control over a lot of things. 00:49:33.280 --> 00:49:38.400 If you're utilizing Facebook for it and, and maybe we can trust them. 00:49:38.580 --> 00:49:40.480 Maybe we can't, maybe there's legitimacy. 00:49:41.100 --> 00:49:41.820 I don't know. 00:49:41.920 --> 00:49:46.660 But at the end of the day, I would definitely have an email list, a database. 00:49:47.480 --> 00:49:52.780 Um, I, I would, you know, maybe not publicly talking about it, but privately be talking about, 00:49:52.860 --> 00:49:55.480 okay, if something happens, what's the plan? 00:49:55.940 --> 00:50:00.140 Uh, you know, as, as I, as I, as I read the book, you know, it doesn't end well. 00:50:00.140 --> 00:50:06.520 And so having a backup plan may be helpful, uh, for, for churches out there to be, be thinking 00:50:06.520 --> 00:50:07.760 through some of those things. 00:50:08.140 --> 00:50:08.620 Absolutely. 00:50:08.820 --> 00:50:11.760 It's, it's called a bug out bag, by the way, a bug out bag. 00:50:11.940 --> 00:50:12.780 There you go. 00:50:13.120 --> 00:50:14.820 That's much better than fanny pack. 00:50:15.100 --> 00:50:15.500 Absolutely. 00:50:15.500 --> 00:50:16.580 Definitely not fanny pack. 00:50:16.720 --> 00:50:17.800 Bug out bag. 00:50:18.120 --> 00:50:18.520 Cool. 00:50:18.980 --> 00:50:20.920 Hey, sir, thank you very much for the time. 00:50:21.000 --> 00:50:22.300 This is, this has been excellent. 00:50:22.440 --> 00:50:26.480 If, um, maybe, I mean, just landing the plane, any, any closing thoughts here? 00:50:26.880 --> 00:50:32.640 Um, I think that we, we need to just look at some of the opportunities online and not see 00:50:32.640 --> 00:50:36.980 it as an alternative, not see it as a potential replacement to in-person. 00:50:37.080 --> 00:50:38.720 No one's thinking about replacing in-person. 00:50:38.960 --> 00:50:41.000 It's, it's not either, or it's both. 00:50:41.080 --> 00:50:47.080 And both of these can live, um, um, in a, in a symbiotic relationship where they're benefiting 00:50:47.080 --> 00:50:48.100 each other. 00:50:48.580 --> 00:50:56.020 Um, I'll say this, uh, there, cause one thing people think about, um, in-person versus digital, 00:50:56.020 --> 00:50:58.280 like, well, you can't build community online. 00:50:58.380 --> 00:50:59.040 You absolutely can. 00:50:59.620 --> 00:51:02.240 And, and just being in-person by itself doesn't mean you're a community. 00:51:02.840 --> 00:51:06.840 You, you, I, there are people in your church right now who were there in-person for years 00:51:06.840 --> 00:51:07.880 and you don't even know their name. 00:51:08.000 --> 00:51:11.020 So being in-person doesn't mean community. 00:51:11.140 --> 00:51:16.580 On the other hand, the same things that build community in-person, build it online, um, being 00:51:16.580 --> 00:51:20.440 transparent, being able to trust people, being able to value people, love people, pray 00:51:20.440 --> 00:51:21.620 for people, encourage people. 00:51:21.760 --> 00:51:23.080 You can absolutely do that. 00:51:23.080 --> 00:51:28.780 If you were to ask anybody to define church or to define Christian community, none of them 00:51:28.780 --> 00:51:29.700 would say in-person. 00:51:29.920 --> 00:51:30.520 They wouldn't. 00:51:31.000 --> 00:51:34.460 Everything that they would say in their definition, you can do online. 00:51:34.880 --> 00:51:35.860 Can you do the subject online? 00:51:36.140 --> 00:51:36.480 Absolutely. 00:51:36.860 --> 00:51:38.020 People's lives are being changed. 00:51:38.700 --> 00:51:42.900 God does things the same way that Jesus could speak to the surface woman and say, your daughter 00:51:42.900 --> 00:51:45.520 who has that demon is okay. 00:51:45.800 --> 00:51:50.700 Or the same way he can speak to the centurion and say that you're a servant, go ahead home. 00:51:50.820 --> 00:51:52.100 Your servant's already well. 00:51:52.340 --> 00:51:53.820 He can do the same thing through the screen. 00:51:54.100 --> 00:51:55.340 God moves in people's homes. 00:51:55.460 --> 00:51:57.280 He moves in people's living rooms. 00:51:57.800 --> 00:52:01.680 And, uh, and we're just using, we're, we're, we're trusting that the God who we say can do 00:52:01.680 --> 00:52:06.320 any and everything and doesn't need to be in a box, that he does things like that online. 00:52:06.500 --> 00:52:10.280 And, um, and yeah, we're just, we're just seeing him do it. 00:52:10.500 --> 00:52:11.480 We're seeing him do it. 00:52:11.640 --> 00:52:12.440 I'll give one example. 00:52:12.560 --> 00:52:13.160 Then I'm, then I'm done. 00:52:13.240 --> 00:52:16.340 One person has said, it was in our, in our group, one of our small groups last week. 00:52:16.640 --> 00:52:18.560 Um, we use Facebook rooms for small groups. 00:52:19.420 --> 00:52:23.700 He said, I've been saved for in my, in my 30, 34 years of being saved. 00:52:24.000 --> 00:52:30.180 I shared Jesus, maybe twice, maybe twice, 34 years. 00:52:30.320 --> 00:52:36.320 He said, since hearts like his in January, I've shared Jesus 10 to 15 times. 00:52:37.000 --> 00:52:37.480 Wow. 00:52:38.700 --> 00:52:39.800 He lives in Reno. 00:52:40.060 --> 00:52:41.540 I've never been in person with him. 00:52:41.840 --> 00:52:46.020 Uh, you know, since, you know, this, this year, I remember a few years ago, um, him and 00:52:46.020 --> 00:52:47.120 his wife, but yeah. 00:52:47.160 --> 00:52:48.720 So what, what, what happened there? 00:52:49.080 --> 00:52:54.420 What happened there now in person, you talk to any pastor and see the struggle you get 00:52:54.420 --> 00:52:58.920 preaching to them live in person, try and get them to try to get them to share Jesus. 00:52:59.140 --> 00:53:00.340 But what's, what's happening? 00:53:00.740 --> 00:53:02.880 And again, it's not just the digital method. 00:53:03.420 --> 00:53:04.480 It's the message. 00:53:04.960 --> 00:53:05.860 It's the gospel. 00:53:06.480 --> 00:53:07.280 It's the gospel. 00:53:07.400 --> 00:53:11.280 I talked about the cross for nine weeks and I talked about the resurrection for eight weeks 00:53:11.280 --> 00:53:11.780 after that. 00:53:11.860 --> 00:53:13.520 So 17 weeks, just on Easter. 00:53:13.760 --> 00:53:14.820 I want folks to get it. 00:53:15.080 --> 00:53:15.700 I'm not in a hurry. 00:53:15.820 --> 00:53:16.520 We ain't going nowhere. 00:53:16.860 --> 00:53:17.920 I'm not trying to entertain you. 00:53:17.980 --> 00:53:20.760 So I don't need to switch it up to a graphic every three or four weeks because your attention 00:53:20.760 --> 00:53:21.340 span is low. 00:53:21.700 --> 00:53:24.020 No, this is a discipleship community. 00:53:24.700 --> 00:53:25.800 You're here to grow. 00:53:26.100 --> 00:53:28.540 If that's what you're here to do, then that's what we're going to land on this thing. 00:53:28.540 --> 00:53:33.480 Until you grow, until you get it, until you know, God has forgiven you, you know, God loves 00:53:33.480 --> 00:53:33.660 you. 00:53:33.660 --> 00:53:34.720 Like, that's why we're here. 00:53:34.820 --> 00:53:35.980 And then you're going to spread it. 00:53:36.060 --> 00:53:39.860 My theory is if you really are a satisfied customer with the gospel, you're going to spread 00:53:39.860 --> 00:53:40.060 it. 00:53:40.200 --> 00:53:41.220 And that's what's happening. 00:53:41.720 --> 00:53:42.460 That's what's happening. 00:53:42.740 --> 00:53:46.300 So over and over and over, there's all kinds of fruit that just being expressed people. 00:53:46.420 --> 00:53:48.720 I feel more confident, confident talking with God. 00:53:48.820 --> 00:53:50.180 I feel more comfortable talking with God. 00:53:50.260 --> 00:53:54.080 I'm sharing the gospel with my family at the table, you know, based on what's happening 00:53:54.080 --> 00:53:57.280 in this group, you know, people, I just love the transparency in this group. 00:53:57.340 --> 00:53:57.740 I love this. 00:53:57.920 --> 00:54:03.860 One person said, being in hearts like his has exposed to me what was lacking from my 00:54:03.860 --> 00:54:04.880 in-person experience. 00:54:06.980 --> 00:54:07.380 Right? 00:54:07.500 --> 00:54:08.320 So it's the real deal. 00:54:08.480 --> 00:54:08.880 It's out there. 00:54:08.920 --> 00:54:09.780 The opportunities are out there. 00:54:10.120 --> 00:54:15.560 If you look at it as an opportunity, then your creative juices will be flowing, innovation 00:54:15.560 --> 00:54:16.100 will be flowing. 00:54:16.380 --> 00:54:19.400 The Lord will lead you to how he wants you to do ministry in your context. 00:54:19.920 --> 00:54:23.220 But ultimately, man, all of us have global ministries. 00:54:23.760 --> 00:54:25.640 We all have global ministries with the internet. 00:54:26.100 --> 00:54:26.580 Bottom line. 00:54:26.860 --> 00:54:27.460 That's so good. 00:54:27.520 --> 00:54:32.060 And what's interesting is your best selling point has absolutely nothing to do with technology. 00:54:32.060 --> 00:54:38.860 Your best selling point is that there's maybe an option to really look at training disciple 00:54:38.860 --> 00:54:41.840 making, training multiplication, training evangelism. 00:54:42.460 --> 00:54:47.960 And the individual who in 40 years shared the gospel story twice and has now done it 10 to 00:54:47.960 --> 00:54:53.880 15 times, I can't tell you how many different times I've heard that exact story from different 00:54:53.880 --> 00:54:54.360 people. 00:54:54.620 --> 00:54:57.660 Now, some of them are in digital plants. 00:54:57.760 --> 00:54:59.260 Some of them are running micro churches. 00:54:59.700 --> 00:55:02.160 Some of them are running more organic structures. 00:55:02.660 --> 00:55:07.260 But what's interesting, and this isn't even about the technology as much as it is, my gosh, 00:55:07.320 --> 00:55:12.120 there's an opportunity to do something different and connect with people in a different way and 00:55:12.120 --> 00:55:19.920 challenge people to own the message of the gospel and not to hand it off to professional 00:55:19.920 --> 00:55:24.600 Christians who are paid to stand on their stage in front of thousands to exude their 00:55:24.620 --> 00:55:25.160 spiritual gift. 00:55:25.160 --> 00:55:31.420 But instead, what if we would train our thousands, equip them with the gospel and let them reach 00:55:31.420 --> 00:55:36.740 their circle of influence, their 10, their 15, their 20, the oikos, the people in their 00:55:36.740 --> 00:55:37.680 lives like that. 00:55:37.820 --> 00:55:38.920 That's beautiful. 00:55:39.320 --> 00:55:40.100 Oh, my gosh. 00:55:40.200 --> 00:55:41.700 I didn't even think we were going to go there. 00:55:42.040 --> 00:55:46.340 That was not why I wanted to have this conversation, but you just made me really excited. 00:55:46.720 --> 00:55:47.880 So thank you for that. 00:55:47.960 --> 00:55:50.460 Hey, we are going to land the plane here. 00:55:50.540 --> 00:55:52.180 This has been an awesome time. 00:55:52.280 --> 00:55:54.800 Dr. Harris, thank you for joining us here with this. 00:55:55.860 --> 00:55:59.120 Oh, listen, we're going to do it again, and we're looking forward. 00:55:59.540 --> 00:55:59.880 It's funny. 00:55:59.940 --> 00:56:03.320 As soon as I hang up this call, we're going to end up talking about some things that we're 00:56:03.320 --> 00:56:06.220 going to do together with Stadia and with Dr. Harris. 00:56:06.300 --> 00:56:11.380 So definitely looking forward to seeing you more and having more conversations. 00:56:11.380 --> 00:56:15.060 But we're going to wrap the podcast here and move on to the next part of the conversation. 00:56:15.440 --> 00:56:20.520 So for Dr. John Harris, this is Jeff with The Church Digital and with Stadia Church Planning. 00:56:20.620 --> 00:56:22.380 Thanks for jumping on the show here. 00:56:22.680 --> 00:56:23.700 We'll see you next time on the pod. 00:56:23.860 --> 00:56:24.440 Y'all have a good day.