WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:03.800 Welcome to the Church Digital Podcast, powered by Stadia Church Planting. 00:00:04.440 --> 00:00:08.540 Through this podcast, learn about how God is using technology and innovation 00:00:08.540 --> 00:00:11.580 in digital and digital environments around the world. 00:00:12.100 --> 00:00:16.000 Our goal? To help churches like yours learn to be the church digitally. 00:00:16.600 --> 00:00:21.600 Our heart? That churches like yours will discover a newfound focus on disciple-making 00:00:21.600 --> 00:00:23.620 that will revolutionize your church. 00:00:24.120 --> 00:00:26.660 And now, your host, here's Jeff Reed. 00:00:27.200 --> 00:00:30.620 Okay, so right off the bat, let me tell you, listening audience out there, 00:00:30.680 --> 00:00:35.940 I had no idea I was being controversial when I was talking about the metaverse 00:00:35.940 --> 00:00:40.000 and the role of the church in the future of the metaverse. 00:00:40.140 --> 00:00:46.440 I had no idea I was going to get all the backlash on YouTube that I did. 00:00:46.520 --> 00:00:51.220 But evidently, I am, and I feel like I need to publicly acknowledge this and even state to it, 00:00:51.320 --> 00:00:53.800 I am not the seed of Satan. 00:00:54.600 --> 00:01:00.820 I don't believe the birthplace of the Antichrist is going to be in virtual reality. 00:01:00.980 --> 00:01:08.200 And I don't think that the metaverse is hell because it was made by man, not made by God. 00:01:08.480 --> 00:01:13.520 There may be some questionings, you know, so maybe some rough theology we need to examine in this space. 00:01:13.700 --> 00:01:18.540 And listen, you know, I get people questioning me all the time, but that felt a little extreme. 00:01:18.540 --> 00:01:22.760 But I do want to talk about the idea of meta, the metaverse today. 00:01:22.880 --> 00:01:26.360 As a matter of fact, we're bringing into the conversation Pastor Brock. 00:01:26.460 --> 00:01:27.320 Now, here's the deal. 00:01:27.800 --> 00:01:31.640 Pastor Brock is a metaverse missionary. 00:01:31.840 --> 00:01:32.840 He is an evangelist. 00:01:32.920 --> 00:01:37.600 He literally walks around VRChat, one of the virtual reality platforms. 00:01:38.300 --> 00:01:41.000 And not literally, well, I guess literally his avatar walks around. 00:01:41.220 --> 00:01:44.820 But he spends time in that community witnessing. 00:01:45.540 --> 00:01:46.600 And we talk about that. 00:01:46.680 --> 00:01:52.300 What is it like to share Jesus in the wild, wild west, in crazy environments? 00:01:52.480 --> 00:01:56.600 What is it like to build relationships with people? 00:01:56.720 --> 00:02:02.040 And what does it look like to do discipleship, disciple making, multiplication, even in that space? 00:02:02.040 --> 00:02:12.240 And the beautiful thing is that Pastor Brock, in this conversation, talks about how he doesn't have all the answers, but he's open to and is even wrestling with it at a deeper level. 00:02:12.280 --> 00:02:13.320 It's a beautiful conversation. 00:02:13.960 --> 00:02:22.420 Now, I got to tell you right off the bat that there's things theologically, even talking about theology at the beginning, there's some things that Pastor Brock and I don't see eye to eye on. 00:02:22.980 --> 00:02:23.460 And guess what? 00:02:23.480 --> 00:02:25.340 As Christians, that's okay, right? 00:02:25.340 --> 00:02:34.340 Like we can have different opinions, different views of situations and still like respect and like each other and want to spend time. 00:02:34.420 --> 00:02:35.760 And so you're going to hear some of that now. 00:02:36.160 --> 00:02:43.100 And really, the biggest difference, I think, between Pastor Brock and well, we'll get into it, but it's really centered around the digital church. 00:02:43.560 --> 00:02:47.580 Can you be a fully functioning, ecclesiologically stable church in digital space? 00:02:48.320 --> 00:02:54.980 Ironically, Pastor Brock, who's an evangelist who is witnessing, who's looking at digital as a mission field, says, you know what? 00:02:54.980 --> 00:02:56.500 I don't think you can do that as a church. 00:02:56.580 --> 00:02:57.460 And that's cool. 00:02:57.840 --> 00:03:00.240 There are others in the VR space that say you can. 00:03:00.380 --> 00:03:03.400 DJ Soto, Jade Earhart, you know, plenty of others. 00:03:03.760 --> 00:03:04.480 Jason Poling. 00:03:04.780 --> 00:03:07.000 Jason Poling will actually be on the podcast here in a couple weeks. 00:03:07.480 --> 00:03:09.600 And so there's plenty of others that say you can. 00:03:10.500 --> 00:03:13.520 We'll all stand before God one day and he'll tell us where we're right and we're wrong, I guess. 00:03:13.600 --> 00:03:16.320 And so, you know, until then, we can just do the best that we can. 00:03:16.320 --> 00:03:22.120 But what I love about this conversation with Pastor Brock is we had the conversation. 00:03:22.620 --> 00:03:27.480 Even though we were different opinions on things, he was still able to, wanting to come and wanting to dialogue. 00:03:27.700 --> 00:03:31.380 And we still learned something through this and other conversations that we've had. 00:03:31.960 --> 00:03:42.580 So for this conversation, we're bringing into the table Pastor Brock from Pastor Brock, who talked about Twitch and a number of other things that he does. 00:03:42.580 --> 00:03:45.260 And we're bringing to myself, Jeff, with The Church Digital. 00:03:45.780 --> 00:03:52.020 And with Stadia Church Planting in a conversation that I'm simply calling the Metaverse Missionary. 00:03:52.520 --> 00:03:53.780 Okay, everybody, here you go. 00:03:54.060 --> 00:03:56.400 Man, so talk to me about this ministry. 00:03:56.560 --> 00:03:58.080 Talk to me about what you're doing in the Metaverse. 00:03:58.460 --> 00:03:59.460 It's very exciting. 00:03:59.620 --> 00:04:00.160 Very exciting. 00:04:01.760 --> 00:04:04.640 Just the number of people that you can connect with. 00:04:05.700 --> 00:04:13.320 In more physical mediums, you are pretty limited to your geographical area within, what, 30 minutes at most? 00:04:13.420 --> 00:04:15.200 I mean, maybe some people will drive a little bit longer than that. 00:04:15.240 --> 00:04:18.200 But for the most part, 30 minutes driving distance, that's your limit. 00:04:19.200 --> 00:04:26.500 It's been remarkable to see the connections we've been able to make with people all over the world. 00:04:27.200 --> 00:04:30.780 We've got a guy from Mumbai who shows up once in a while. 00:04:30.980 --> 00:04:32.500 We've got a – I don't know. 00:04:32.600 --> 00:04:34.060 Have you guys talked about the story of Alice? 00:04:34.500 --> 00:04:40.700 This is kind of a story that's woven through DJ, Jaypo, Jate, a lot of your former guests. 00:04:41.320 --> 00:04:42.820 This is a tremendous story. 00:04:43.140 --> 00:04:47.680 So is Alice the Antichrist the – yes. 00:04:47.860 --> 00:04:47.940 Okay. 00:04:48.180 --> 00:04:48.820 Well, you know what? 00:04:48.860 --> 00:04:51.040 What's funny is Jaypo has told that story. 00:04:51.520 --> 00:04:53.260 Actually, we haven't even aired that yet. 00:04:53.440 --> 00:04:55.180 I know Jate has told that story. 00:04:55.260 --> 00:04:56.660 We've published it on social media. 00:04:57.160 --> 00:04:57.640 Go ahead. 00:04:57.740 --> 00:04:58.820 Tell us a little bit about Alice. 00:04:58.840 --> 00:04:59.560 It's a remarkable story. 00:04:59.620 --> 00:05:00.100 I'll do it. 00:05:00.200 --> 00:05:02.800 I'll be quick because it's been told before. 00:05:04.940 --> 00:05:11.580 So I had a woman kind of come in to – I don't remember if she joined us first on Twitch or in VR chat. 00:05:12.600 --> 00:05:16.960 But on her Twitch handle was SatanSexyslut. 00:05:17.160 --> 00:05:19.620 And then it was Future Queen of Hell. 00:05:19.920 --> 00:05:20.860 Future Queen of Hell. 00:05:20.940 --> 00:05:22.180 That's what I was resonating with. 00:05:22.320 --> 00:05:22.680 Yeah. 00:05:22.860 --> 00:05:23.020 Yeah. 00:05:23.040 --> 00:05:28.300 This is a full-blown, like, satanic, you know, oriented person. 00:05:28.300 --> 00:05:31.920 And over the last, let's say, year and a half, it's been remarkable. 00:05:33.220 --> 00:05:35.380 This woman's come to faith in Christ. 00:05:35.740 --> 00:05:37.580 I consider her one of – a dear friend. 00:05:37.720 --> 00:05:42.680 And I think that, you know, attests to the power of a digital medium. 00:05:44.100 --> 00:05:46.500 And, you know, just this woman in Cornwall. 00:05:46.980 --> 00:05:48.080 I mean, UK. 00:05:48.460 --> 00:05:50.820 I mean, who would have ever thought? 00:05:52.820 --> 00:05:55.520 It's just a remarkable, remarkable thing. 00:05:55.800 --> 00:05:58.600 And it's really woven through a lot of our different communities. 00:05:58.600 --> 00:06:02.360 So, she's a member of J-Post Church, Cornerstone. 00:06:03.040 --> 00:06:08.600 But, you know, Jate's friends with her and I am and DJ. 00:06:08.800 --> 00:06:11.120 And it's just been an amazing cooperative effort. 00:06:11.380 --> 00:06:12.860 She's just the sweetest. 00:06:12.880 --> 00:06:14.440 She has the best questions, too. 00:06:14.580 --> 00:06:15.820 She's incredibly intelligent. 00:06:16.160 --> 00:06:17.680 And, I mean, that would never happen. 00:06:17.780 --> 00:06:21.900 Like, there's no way that I would ever be able to physically connect with her. 00:06:22.180 --> 00:06:25.840 But through this digital means, I think the Holy Spirit brought our paths together. 00:06:26.120 --> 00:06:26.960 And how beautiful. 00:06:27.520 --> 00:06:27.780 Beautiful. 00:06:28.200 --> 00:06:28.380 Yeah. 00:06:28.440 --> 00:06:32.260 So, she came to Christ through the metaverse, through virtual reality. 00:06:32.520 --> 00:06:33.040 And it's funny. 00:06:33.120 --> 00:06:39.000 Like, all the names that you mentioned, you're in, like, Wisconsin or – you're in Michigan. 00:06:39.240 --> 00:06:40.000 Michigan, yeah. 00:06:40.000 --> 00:06:43.900 Yeah, J-Post in Northern California. 00:06:44.220 --> 00:06:45.860 Jate's in Montana. 00:06:46.600 --> 00:06:47.880 DJ's East Coast. 00:06:47.980 --> 00:06:48.740 Where is he? 00:06:48.820 --> 00:06:49.180 I don't know. 00:06:49.320 --> 00:06:50.900 He moved around recently. 00:06:51.100 --> 00:06:52.680 I think he's trying to build out a compound. 00:06:52.840 --> 00:06:53.360 Yeah, it's crazy. 00:06:54.140 --> 00:06:59.020 And then DJ's, I think, recently moved to East Coast here in Virginia, I want to say. 00:06:59.680 --> 00:07:05.100 And so, like, none of these people, they're not even on the same continent as the future queen of hell. 00:07:05.420 --> 00:07:11.680 Yet, somehow, we've managed to figure out how to bring the future queen of hell to Christ. 00:07:11.820 --> 00:07:13.560 I mean, what a – just a phenomenal story. 00:07:13.900 --> 00:07:17.020 And I love her name now as Alice in the Palace, right? 00:07:17.120 --> 00:07:21.640 So, instead of being the future queen of hell, she's in the palace of the king. 00:07:21.940 --> 00:07:24.140 I mean, that's just – that's beauty. 00:07:24.540 --> 00:07:26.520 I think Jate said it best the other day in a tweet. 00:07:26.520 --> 00:07:38.440 If I'm involved in nothing else, I feel like my life has meaning that bringing the love of Christ to someone who was so far from Christ. 00:07:38.660 --> 00:07:41.980 It fills my life with tremendous meaning to be a part of that. 00:07:42.320 --> 00:07:44.280 So, I mean, let's put some descriptors on this. 00:07:44.420 --> 00:07:47.580 What are you actually doing in the metaverse? 00:07:47.740 --> 00:07:54.820 Like, DJ's running a full church, Jate – or not, Jate's, you know, doing some unique things just kind of with Twitch and VR. 00:07:55.280 --> 00:07:59.500 JPO's running a – Jason Poling, by the way, I suddenly became self-conscious. 00:07:59.660 --> 00:08:00.620 You guys probably know nicknames. 00:08:00.980 --> 00:08:04.620 Jason Poling, Cornerstone VR, Cornerstone Yuba City. 00:08:04.740 --> 00:08:06.160 And so, he's running a campus. 00:08:06.780 --> 00:08:09.600 Like, what does ministry particularly look like for you in this space? 00:08:09.600 --> 00:08:11.080 Yeah, excellent question. 00:08:11.400 --> 00:08:23.500 So, I – so, my ecclesiology, my understanding of the church is I really think there's so much that the digital space can do. 00:08:24.100 --> 00:08:32.860 But I think there is a point where, you know, encountering the body of Christ in a physical way, I think that's still important. 00:08:32.860 --> 00:08:40.960 So, I consider myself kind of parachurch, pan-Christian – I usually use the language of a pan-Christian fellowship, pan meaning all. 00:08:41.140 --> 00:08:42.520 So, all-Christian fellowship. 00:08:42.680 --> 00:08:43.440 We have Catholics. 00:08:43.660 --> 00:08:45.200 We have evangelicals. 00:08:45.260 --> 00:08:48.740 We have, you know, all across the Christian spectrum. 00:08:48.740 --> 00:08:59.920 The thing that I like about that is you get all of those voices shining a little bit of, you know, interesting angles and thoughts and perspectives. 00:09:00.840 --> 00:09:04.220 And I think you can do that if you see yourself as a church. 00:09:04.420 --> 00:09:20.080 But, you know, I think there's – when it comes to, you know, doctrinal unity, I think those things, at least, you know, coming from my background as a Lutheran Church Missouri Synod pastor for a number of years. 00:09:20.140 --> 00:09:23.800 And then this summer, my family and I converted to Eastern Orthodoxy. 00:09:23.800 --> 00:09:30.700 So, we see ourselves more of a – it's an important piece having that doctrinal unity within a church. 00:09:31.100 --> 00:09:36.620 So, I think that becomes more difficult in the digital space, having a unified doctrinal statement. 00:09:38.120 --> 00:09:47.220 And so, I think it just – for me, it allows my conscience to not have to worry about, like, oh, are they in line with me and this kind of thing? 00:09:47.460 --> 00:09:52.700 And we can just try to work on those common ground pieces. 00:09:52.700 --> 00:09:54.580 You know, Jesus is the son of God. 00:09:54.800 --> 00:09:56.060 We need him for salvation. 00:09:57.200 --> 00:09:58.600 He loves you, right? 00:09:58.740 --> 00:10:02.160 You know, and I think that allows me to kind of just focus on that. 00:10:02.440 --> 00:10:02.560 Yeah. 00:10:02.860 --> 00:10:10.980 So, I mean, for you, it's really more of digital meta where DJ and where Jason Poling are looking at the ecclesiology. 00:10:11.160 --> 00:10:14.180 They're looking and saying, hey, we can be church in the metaverse. 00:10:14.440 --> 00:10:16.360 You know, you're pausing. 00:10:16.460 --> 00:10:17.540 You're not quite to that level. 00:10:17.620 --> 00:10:18.820 And I disagree, but it's okay. 00:10:18.860 --> 00:10:19.420 I still love you. 00:10:19.720 --> 00:10:20.500 You can be wrong. 00:10:20.560 --> 00:10:21.140 I still love you. 00:10:21.800 --> 00:10:22.400 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:10:22.400 --> 00:10:22.800 It's cool. 00:10:23.020 --> 00:10:25.400 Well, believe me, so many people also disagree with me. 00:10:25.440 --> 00:10:28.820 At least you're looking at digital as a mission field. 00:10:29.120 --> 00:10:30.400 Oh, I was just going to say, that's my dream. 00:10:30.580 --> 00:10:31.300 Like, that's my dream. 00:10:31.440 --> 00:10:37.120 Like, I would – you know, I would love nothing more than to be, you know, part-time. 00:10:37.300 --> 00:10:42.340 I mean, part-time seems about as big as the dream could go at this point, but I'd love to be a part-time digital missionary. 00:10:42.620 --> 00:10:52.020 I would love to be in VR chat 20 hours a week preaching the gospel to people, connecting people with Christ. 00:10:52.020 --> 00:10:55.700 And, you know, maybe one day, but that's the dream. 00:10:55.800 --> 00:10:56.860 Yeah, so it's a mission field. 00:10:56.980 --> 00:10:58.700 Like, that's undeniable, right? 00:10:58.740 --> 00:11:00.140 The ability to connect with people. 00:11:00.360 --> 00:11:01.300 I mean, thousands of people. 00:11:01.580 --> 00:11:04.960 I don't know what VR chat is up as far as concurrent users right now. 00:11:05.020 --> 00:11:08.220 I want to say somewhere tens of thousands, I think, you know, but think about that. 00:11:08.280 --> 00:11:15.060 Like, literally anyone who's listening to this podcast could go in, download VR chat, and have 10,000 people that you could witness to. 00:11:15.160 --> 00:11:19.980 Many people who, you know, young people, people in dark places. 00:11:20.120 --> 00:11:21.020 I mean, it's just profound. 00:11:21.020 --> 00:11:21.540 It's profound. 00:11:21.860 --> 00:11:26.180 So VR chat, you know, I'm just even backing up. 00:11:26.240 --> 00:11:33.580 There's a lot of people who now, thanks to Facebook, excuse me, thanks to Meta, now they're asking all these metaverse questions. 00:11:34.700 --> 00:11:39.400 So, VR chat has been described to me as the wild, wild west. 00:11:39.920 --> 00:11:54.020 A lot of the, you know, the parental controls and a lot of the things that you would normally see on Horizons, which is Facebook's platform, or Alt-VR, which is Microsoft's, Rec Room, which is a lot of the game consoles are on there. 00:11:54.260 --> 00:11:56.560 So, you know, there's parental controls and guidance there. 00:11:57.260 --> 00:12:04.160 VR chat, though, where you're really, you are doing a lot of your evangelizing, sharing of the gospel. 00:12:04.720 --> 00:12:07.280 Like, there's not a lot of that protection. 00:12:07.720 --> 00:12:10.800 And what I've seen and what has been described is it's a little nuts. 00:12:10.880 --> 00:12:13.380 Do you have any, like, stories to share on that? 00:12:13.700 --> 00:12:14.100 Absolutely. 00:12:14.620 --> 00:12:15.000 Absolutely. 00:12:15.160 --> 00:12:21.600 So, when I started off in VR chat, we would have just public services, right? 00:12:21.660 --> 00:12:27.080 You know, anybody can come in, you know, you can find it on the, you know, the world map and you could just join in. 00:12:27.980 --> 00:12:36.300 But pretty quickly, we had people that were just coming in there saying, not even worth mentioning, right? 00:12:36.340 --> 00:12:37.540 You're not even alluding to. 00:12:37.540 --> 00:12:46.640 I mean, you can just imagine the most profane, vile, blasphemous stuff that, you know, it was just terrible. 00:12:46.880 --> 00:12:50.420 And in other platforms, you can keep that handle on it. 00:12:50.720 --> 00:12:58.220 But VR chat really loves the freedom of expression and, you know, especially about customizing your avatar. 00:12:58.380 --> 00:13:03.240 People go into this program called Blender and they can make their digital appearance literally whatever they want. 00:13:03.240 --> 00:13:05.000 You don't select from a couple. 00:13:05.560 --> 00:13:07.080 Like, you can make it completely custom. 00:13:07.220 --> 00:13:10.640 If you want fireballs coming out of your ears, you can do that, right? 00:13:10.700 --> 00:13:12.840 Like, literally, the imagination is the limit. 00:13:13.000 --> 00:13:17.840 And to be able to share your creations, these digital creations, that's really at the core of VR chat. 00:13:17.960 --> 00:13:28.740 And so, the younger crowd, you know, like, let's say 15 to 25, which is most of my community, that's where they want to be. 00:13:28.740 --> 00:13:36.720 They don't want to be in this kind of, you know, very, you know, very, you know, generic avatar. 00:13:36.900 --> 00:13:39.020 They want to express themselves in a digital way. 00:13:40.660 --> 00:13:47.180 But yeah, but so with that freedom, of course, comes with just, you know, freedom to do evil, right? 00:13:47.240 --> 00:13:47.520 It's interesting. 00:13:47.520 --> 00:13:57.480 There's an interesting, there's an interesting take there on, you know, you know, free will even, you know, made decisions and using things for the good and things actually being neutral. 00:13:57.480 --> 00:14:01.840 But, you know, we as humans can either interact with them in a good way or a wicked way. 00:14:02.040 --> 00:14:02.480 So, yeah. 00:14:02.800 --> 00:14:05.880 Yeah, I mean, there's a little bit of even biblical context there. 00:14:05.960 --> 00:14:13.200 You've got all the freedom in the world, yet you still manage to go for the fruit, the thing that you should, the idea of doing evil. 00:14:14.580 --> 00:14:18.980 So, like, what is, you're a digital, you're a meta missionary. 00:14:19.260 --> 00:14:26.580 Like, I don't know if you've ever been described as such, but you're literally, you're being a missionary out in the field. 00:14:28.000 --> 00:14:30.120 What does a conversation look like? 00:14:30.160 --> 00:14:32.900 You described maybe starting to do, like, full church services. 00:14:33.420 --> 00:14:36.780 Are you still using that technique and that process, or have you evolved? 00:14:36.960 --> 00:14:41.580 Like, what has being a missionary, what does it practically look like in the metaverse? 00:14:41.720 --> 00:14:44.560 So, I kind of see them as two separate activities, though. 00:14:44.660 --> 00:14:52.360 I mean, there's, so I'll go in and be kind of more of a missionary in terms of presenting the gospel to just completely random people. 00:14:52.360 --> 00:15:00.400 So, I'll go into a world, so I kind of see this as a part from kind of my weekly service and weekly Bible study. 00:15:00.500 --> 00:15:05.520 I have two events, Sunday evenings, Eastern Standard Time, and Tuesday evenings, Eastern Standard Time. 00:15:05.580 --> 00:15:07.100 So, we have a Bible study and a service. 00:15:07.260 --> 00:15:14.800 But then throughout the week, as schedule allows, I'll just go into a completely random world with people I have, no one I know at all. 00:15:14.960 --> 00:15:18.440 And there'll be a group congregated around a mirror. 00:15:18.440 --> 00:15:27.300 For whatever reason, in VR chat, everybody likes to go in front of a mirror so that they can see their digital representation of themselves moving and interacting. 00:15:27.420 --> 00:15:36.660 Because with VR, all of your hand motions, and sometimes if you have, you know, feet trackers, your entire body moves in this virtual space. 00:15:36.800 --> 00:15:41.660 And so, people, they want to see themselves as this digital them, right? 00:15:41.680 --> 00:15:43.640 And there's a lot of interesting connections there. 00:15:43.640 --> 00:15:49.020 But, anyways, I'll go up to this mirror with, you know, like, let's say five, six people, and I'll say, hey, can I ask you a question? 00:15:50.120 --> 00:15:51.320 And they'll say, sure, sure, go ahead. 00:15:51.560 --> 00:15:52.680 What's the meaning of life? 00:15:53.460 --> 00:15:56.820 And you just get all sorts of interesting answers to that. 00:15:57.920 --> 00:16:04.080 You know, people will, you know, usually the most common answers is somewhere along the lines of pleasure, right? 00:16:04.120 --> 00:16:05.900 Whatever makes me happy. 00:16:06.060 --> 00:16:14.740 But, you know, I always joke with them, this is kind of my tried and true phrase, well, you know, pleasure is good and all, but there's something even more important than pleasure, and that's love, right? 00:16:14.740 --> 00:16:20.760 Like, if your mom needs a kidney, you know, you're not going to say, well, it's not going to bring you a lot of pleasure, right? 00:16:21.100 --> 00:16:27.380 You know, but you're going to, you're willing to let some dude hack in there with a kidney, you know, with a scalpel and take out your kidney. 00:16:27.540 --> 00:16:27.740 And why? 00:16:27.840 --> 00:16:30.200 Because love, love is the most important thing. 00:16:30.600 --> 00:16:35.340 And then, so we talk about relationship and love, and then that leads to the ultimate relationship. 00:16:35.640 --> 00:16:39.420 So, so that's kind of what I, that's kind of how the conversation usually goes. 00:16:39.580 --> 00:16:46.060 And I, I really, there is a script of sorts, but I really try to, I chafe at that a little bit. 00:16:46.060 --> 00:16:51.780 You know, I think that I really want the people that I'm interacting with to be genuinely heard. 00:16:52.380 --> 00:16:57.820 There's, there's, I worked, worked at Jimmy John's in college, and there's this sign at Jimmy John's. 00:16:58.100 --> 00:17:04.540 And it says, people who want to have religious conversations with you never want to hear your opinions on the matter or something along those lines. 00:17:04.880 --> 00:17:06.140 And I was like, that's really insightful. 00:17:06.380 --> 00:17:10.440 And so I think, I think where the church has gone wrong is we, we don't listen, right? 00:17:10.480 --> 00:17:13.060 We, we, we, we talk, but we don't, we don't listen. 00:17:13.060 --> 00:17:18.200 So I really try to, to make the people, whoever I'm interacting with, whether they're antagonistic or not, I try to make them feel heard. 00:17:18.540 --> 00:17:21.240 And I want to like genuinely hear them and hear their thought. 00:17:21.620 --> 00:17:25.360 Yeah, that's even in church online and broadcast and digital ministry. 00:17:25.680 --> 00:17:35.920 Um, we talk about how it's better to ask questions and make statements and, and through the relationship, learn about people and allow the spirit to, to move through the, through that, that relationship. 00:17:35.920 --> 00:17:39.580 And I'm, I'm actually really excited to hear that same, that same logic. 00:17:39.580 --> 00:17:41.320 I mean, that's not limited to just digital. 00:17:41.320 --> 00:17:50.100 It works in the, in the metaverse and in 2021, I think it works in, in IRL too, in real life, but that, you know, it may be a, a side conversation. 00:17:50.100 --> 00:17:59.780 So, so through, um, you know, these meeting the people, having the conversations, like, do you, what types of people are you meeting? 00:17:59.900 --> 00:18:01.300 Do you know anything about them? 00:18:01.360 --> 00:18:04.740 Have you been able to pull any characteristics, demographics? 00:18:05.120 --> 00:18:12.040 Like you, I mean, you mentioned 15 to 25 earlier, like what, what else are you learning about these people that you're interacting with in the metaverse? 00:18:12.040 --> 00:18:26.480 Well, you know, so VR chat specifically, um, I heard someone say that a stat recently that over, well over 50% of VR chat users are in private rooms. 00:18:27.480 --> 00:18:32.480 Um, and that would allude to some, some darker activities. 00:18:32.480 --> 00:18:33.120 I'll leave it there. 00:18:33.200 --> 00:18:35.120 We'll keep that PG 13, just leave it at that. 00:18:35.180 --> 00:18:39.800 So there's a lot of, of virtual, um, sexual immorality. 00:18:39.880 --> 00:18:40.740 Let's say it that way. 00:18:40.800 --> 00:18:42.540 And I, you know, I think we can leave it at that. 00:18:42.780 --> 00:18:46.960 So this is like the AOL chat rooms of the nineties is what you're basically describing here. 00:18:46.980 --> 00:18:47.220 Okay. 00:18:47.260 --> 00:18:47.620 All right. 00:18:47.680 --> 00:18:48.080 All right. 00:18:48.460 --> 00:18:48.780 Right. 00:18:48.900 --> 00:18:49.100 Yeah. 00:18:49.100 --> 00:18:50.100 Kind of right. 00:18:50.200 --> 00:18:50.400 Yeah. 00:18:50.400 --> 00:18:54.120 Like, and, and in fact, people like do this sort of thing, like they get their kick. 00:18:54.120 --> 00:18:57.640 Like sometimes people will come into my middle of my church service and do this sort of thing. 00:18:58.140 --> 00:18:58.260 Right. 00:18:58.340 --> 00:19:00.000 Like, you know, how about that? 00:19:00.080 --> 00:19:00.240 Right. 00:19:00.240 --> 00:19:07.000 Like nobody has to worry about an IRL, you know, two people shacking up in the back of the church, you know, hopefully not. 00:19:07.500 --> 00:19:23.080 You know, so, um, yeah, so it's, there's really a longing, you know, I remember a sermon by John Piper, um, once, and he was talking about, you know, we as human beings were made for this relationship with God. 00:19:23.080 --> 00:19:33.440 And if we're swimming in this world made for that, we have to fill our, our hunger with the, with the, the, the best thing that can substitute it. 00:19:33.480 --> 00:19:34.300 And that's sex. 00:19:34.520 --> 00:19:36.960 I was just listening in the car, uh, today. 00:19:37.180 --> 00:19:41.760 Some song, um, is basically, you know, you see this a lot in pop, pop music. 00:19:41.760 --> 00:19:43.820 There's this connection between religion and sex. 00:19:44.380 --> 00:19:53.800 And, um, and so really what we're doing, um, is trying to convert people from the religion of sex to the, to the, to the faith in Christ. 00:19:54.120 --> 00:20:05.400 Um, and, and I think that's that potent, that, that, that, um, that's really, really, I think a profound thing in VR chat, which is so sexualized. 00:20:05.400 --> 00:20:06.880 Um, so, yeah. 00:20:07.160 --> 00:20:11.900 Now what, what I know, and I don't, I know the other platforms better than, than VR chat. 00:20:11.980 --> 00:20:21.880 I, I don't see the, um, um, the sexuality, uh, in, in some of the other platforms near to level that I do with, within the VR. 00:20:22.080 --> 00:20:26.520 So, uh, there, there's a little, just audience out there listening, VR chats, a little more aggressive. 00:20:26.740 --> 00:20:27.220 VR chat. 00:20:27.300 --> 00:20:27.440 Yeah. 00:20:27.640 --> 00:20:31.500 Specifically, you can, yeah, this is not possible just because of that custom avatar piece. 00:20:31.500 --> 00:20:33.560 You can make yourself look any way you want. 00:20:33.620 --> 00:20:33.900 You're right. 00:20:33.960 --> 00:20:36.780 In, in all the other VR platforms, that's not the case. 00:20:36.840 --> 00:20:37.960 Just, just not possible. 00:20:38.160 --> 00:20:38.400 Yeah. 00:20:38.480 --> 00:20:40.160 Um, are you, are you reaching? 00:20:40.160 --> 00:20:45.100 I mean, we mentioned, we talked about the future queen of hell or princess in, in the, in the palace now. 00:20:45.700 --> 00:20:47.860 Like I do, is it more global? 00:20:48.100 --> 00:20:50.080 Is it more domestic? 00:20:50.320 --> 00:20:53.460 Like what, who are you, what types of people are you interacting with? 00:20:53.680 --> 00:20:53.960 Yeah. 00:20:54.040 --> 00:20:55.640 Just all sorts, all sorts. 00:20:55.840 --> 00:21:00.600 Um, so I would say primarily just, I'm not sure if it's because of time zone. 00:21:01.080 --> 00:21:08.680 Um, mostly, uh, Canadians, Americans, you know, um, this, this, this part of the world, but not exclusively. 00:21:08.680 --> 00:21:14.060 So like I was saying, we got this gentleman from Mumbai who pops in, you know, let's say once a month or so. 00:21:14.060 --> 00:21:17.200 And, um, so, so really, really all over. 00:21:17.560 --> 00:21:19.240 Um, there's something else I was going to say. 00:21:19.440 --> 00:21:24.860 Oh, you know, tons of, uh, I've had tons of conversations, not as much people coming to church though. 00:21:24.860 --> 00:21:25.700 That has happened. 00:21:25.700 --> 00:21:29.200 Um, people from, from the Arab world. 00:21:29.840 --> 00:21:41.640 And that's what I find tremendously exciting is people that would have no opportunity, you know, to, to hear the gospel are hearing it, uh, digitally, um, through this, this sort of work. 00:21:42.080 --> 00:21:43.100 Um, yeah. 00:21:43.100 --> 00:21:49.440 So it's, it's, it's, it's, you know, where is who, how many missionaries are we able to get into Saudi Arabia or Iran? 00:21:49.560 --> 00:21:55.920 I mean, these are definitely places where the church is growing underground, but, um, you know, I, you're so limited in that regard, right? 00:21:55.980 --> 00:22:08.400 You know, I mean, to, to be willing to, to share your faith in Iran, like you've really got to do a lot of groundwork there because as soon as you risk, start talking about Jesus, man, you know, are they going to be receptive? 00:22:08.400 --> 00:22:09.700 Are they going to turn me in? 00:22:09.760 --> 00:22:09.900 Right. 00:22:09.940 --> 00:22:10.860 I don't have to worry about that. 00:22:10.920 --> 00:22:16.640 I'm sitting in the comfort of my Michigan apartment and, um, you know, there's no risk. 00:22:16.640 --> 00:22:18.260 And so why are we the church? 00:22:18.360 --> 00:22:21.760 Not, not more people, you know, that I'm just reminded of Christ's words. 00:22:21.900 --> 00:22:24.300 The, the, the harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few. 00:22:24.400 --> 00:22:24.980 We need more. 00:22:25.140 --> 00:22:27.300 We need more people doing work in this space. 00:22:27.640 --> 00:22:34.000 Are you seeing like short-term relationships, long-term relationships developing off of this? 00:22:34.000 --> 00:22:55.080 I mean, future queen of hell, I mean, excuse me, a princess in the palace at this point, like a lot of people have developed relationships and that was a tag team, a team effort it felt like, but ongoing from there, are these more like one hit wonders where you get the one shot and hopefully it sticks or what, what does the ongoing ministry look like for you as, as a, as a metamissionary? 00:22:55.080 --> 00:22:55.480 Yeah. 00:22:55.600 --> 00:23:06.840 You know, Jeff, we talked about this, the, the, you know, once before, and I tell you what, it's been in my mind ever since that day I've been thinking about, man, what is, what, what are we going to do as far as discipleship? 00:23:06.920 --> 00:23:17.380 Like, what are we going to do in terms of, of not, you know, uh, I remember a sermon by Billy Graham who said, you can only, you can only come to Christ while the Holy Spirit's drawing you. 00:23:17.700 --> 00:23:18.100 Right. 00:23:18.200 --> 00:23:31.360 You know, um, and, and so, you know, we, uh, you know, if we're just speaking to them once and we're not developing that longer relationship, if we're not, if there's not a discipleship piece, um, then it's all for naught. 00:23:31.660 --> 00:23:33.520 So it's a mixed bag. 00:23:33.520 --> 00:23:47.600 I mean, there are definitely pillars of our community that, you know, long-term, you know, relationships have been developed, but I think that's something where, you know, we need to be thinking more about is how can we, um, be more intentional. 00:23:47.700 --> 00:23:51.440 About trying to make sure that this isn't just a, a one Sunday novelty. 00:23:51.780 --> 00:23:52.140 Yeah. 00:23:52.140 --> 00:23:54.100 Cause people come, they're like, man, that was really nice. 00:23:54.100 --> 00:23:58.120 And then they, they never come again, um, or they get disconnected for whatever reason. 00:23:58.120 --> 00:24:05.820 So that's, that's something definitely need to, definitely need to look at is, um, is trying to, to build longer term relationships with more people. 00:24:05.820 --> 00:24:16.320 You know, I, I was speaking at a conference on, uh, Fidgetal, on Meadow, it was one of the exponential things that I did somewhere in the, I don't, honestly, and I think it was Chicago. 00:24:16.320 --> 00:24:20.520 I'm not even really sure what city I was in at this point because they all just kind of ran, ran together. 00:24:20.760 --> 00:24:33.340 But there was a question from the audience and we were talking about meta and, and this girl, you know, kind of raised, raised her hand and, and, and basically said, um, the metaverse is, is a trigger for me. 00:24:33.340 --> 00:24:41.460 It's a, it's a, it's a, not a safe environment for me to go in, I guess, because she's has a, has a, has a history of things in there. 00:24:41.460 --> 00:24:58.060 And, and, you know, I didn't, I didn't dig into the what here as, as much as more just listening to her kind of share that she didn't feel like the metaverse needed to be a place for ministry because she had this history in, in that space. 00:24:58.220 --> 00:25:15.000 And, and, and it was funny, I just, I, I, I kind of listed off some examples, even in my own life where, you know, I've, I've got a friend that, um, was very involved in triple X church, which does a lot of, um, ministry towards porn and, and, and sex workers kind of type of thing. 00:25:15.380 --> 00:25:27.680 And, um, and one day, one, this is maybe a decade ago, but like the global porn industry conference, you know, porn con or whatever it was called was here in Miami. 00:25:28.120 --> 00:25:32.340 And, and my friend called me up and was like, Hey, why don't you come in and do ministry with us? 00:25:32.340 --> 00:25:36.860 And at this, you know, international thing, we're going to go witness and share and whatever. 00:25:37.500 --> 00:25:39.100 And, um, and it was funny. 00:25:39.120 --> 00:25:41.080 Like, I don't, I'll just be honest. 00:25:41.080 --> 00:25:41.800 It's my podcast. 00:25:41.880 --> 00:25:42.120 It's okay. 00:25:42.120 --> 00:25:49.360 I'm like, Hey, no, you don't, you don't want me anywhere near that because I'm not strong enough to do that. 00:25:49.360 --> 00:25:51.780 I am not girded in such a way spiritually. 00:25:51.980 --> 00:25:54.240 I know where my weaknesses are and congratulations. 00:25:54.820 --> 00:25:57.000 You just, you just nailed my weakness. 00:25:57.160 --> 00:25:58.060 I will pray for you. 00:25:58.180 --> 00:26:06.220 This isn't invalidating what's happening in that space and the necessity for it, but there needs to be ministry, uh, needs to happen. 00:26:06.340 --> 00:26:13.380 I, I just, I'm not strong enough right now to go walk in that building and have that conversation with someone. 00:26:13.380 --> 00:26:14.520 It needs to happen. 00:26:14.600 --> 00:26:15.600 It's just not me. 00:26:16.260 --> 00:26:17.600 And so I'm curious. 00:26:17.600 --> 00:26:29.040 It's kind of an, oh my gosh, there's so many biblical examples of this, of, of where people, you know, went into those hard places and those hard conversations, even though, um, you know, the world, so to speak was, was against them. 00:26:29.040 --> 00:26:35.680 I'm, I'm just curious because, uh, it's the wild, wild west because, uh, VR chat is VR chat. 00:26:36.120 --> 00:26:38.820 How do you gird yourself up? 00:26:38.900 --> 00:26:42.900 How do you put on that armor of God for the, the metaverse? 00:26:43.000 --> 00:26:45.560 Like how do, how do you shield yourself from that? 00:26:45.840 --> 00:27:00.120 To be honest, like to be completely honest, like it's really not been that big of a deal, you know, cause I don't, there are some people that are, that are attracted to like this digital avatar kind of like, it's not a thing for me. 00:27:00.600 --> 00:27:05.020 So, I mean, if somebody is really, really wearing a provocative avatar, you'll see this all the time in my stream. 00:27:05.440 --> 00:27:11.520 Like if there's something lewd, I'll, I'll, uh, I call it crash dummy-ifying them, right? 00:27:11.560 --> 00:27:15.880 So, you know, you remember the old crash dummy commercials, you know, back in the nineties, like their seatbelts or whatever. 00:27:16.240 --> 00:27:23.620 And so when you block someone's avatar in VR chat, it turns them into this, what I look, I think looks, reminds me of the crash dummies from the nineties. 00:27:23.960 --> 00:27:26.360 So I'll, I'll just crash dummy-ify somebody. 00:27:26.840 --> 00:27:28.420 I'll actually tell them that you're sorry. 00:27:28.540 --> 00:27:30.560 I don't want to see that you're being crash dummy-ified. 00:27:31.220 --> 00:27:33.940 Uh, and, uh, so that's kind of how I handle it. 00:27:34.200 --> 00:27:38.100 And I don't go into private rooms, you know, all my stuff's public. 00:27:38.140 --> 00:27:39.880 And so I think there's that piece. 00:27:40.560 --> 00:27:46.500 Um, but really it's just not, it's not from, it's not a tremendous amount of time. 00:27:46.540 --> 00:27:48.780 I mean, it is and it isn't, but I don't know. 00:27:48.800 --> 00:27:51.980 I just not, it's not something that is very difficult for me. 00:27:52.560 --> 00:27:55.320 Um, cause I'm not into that sort of thing. 00:27:55.600 --> 00:27:59.220 Um, but yeah, no, I mean, I think accountability is really important. 00:27:59.220 --> 00:28:03.500 And I think, um, you know, I think that's, that's an important piece. 00:28:03.940 --> 00:28:06.120 What, what does multiplication look like for you? 00:28:06.120 --> 00:28:10.860 For me, like 2022 is going to be the year of multiplication where it's really trying to 00:28:10.860 --> 00:28:13.440 emphasize, Hey, we need more Pastor Brocks in the world. 00:28:13.540 --> 00:28:14.840 We need more DJ Soto's. 00:28:14.900 --> 00:28:17.360 We need more Jason Pollings, Jates. 00:28:17.640 --> 00:28:19.240 Um, we need a lot more Jates. 00:28:19.560 --> 00:28:22.780 Uh, but from a practical standpoint, amazing. 00:28:23.180 --> 00:28:29.540 Uh, talk to me about like, are you mentoring, discipling someone else to go in this space? 00:28:29.540 --> 00:28:32.420 Are you like, what, what would it look like? 00:28:32.420 --> 00:28:36.100 Have you thought about what multiplication could be in the metaverse? 00:28:36.120 --> 00:28:37.900 Uh, with some of the things that you're doing? 00:28:38.180 --> 00:28:38.500 Yeah. 00:28:38.660 --> 00:28:42.700 You know, so I have, I have done a little bit of this, but very little of this. 00:28:43.220 --> 00:28:47.800 Um, you know, one time a gentleman was asking me, he's like, you know, he comes to me and 00:28:47.800 --> 00:28:50.060 said, you know, Brock, I want to do what you do. 00:28:50.440 --> 00:28:57.240 Um, you know, maybe you could come and follow me around and, um, you can just, uh, you know, 00:28:57.240 --> 00:28:58.800 you can just watch, give me if you have any pointers. 00:28:58.980 --> 00:29:05.660 And so there was a couple of times where, you know, I met with him and, um, uh, met with 00:29:05.660 --> 00:29:09.020 him and we discussed that sort of thing, you know, and gave him some pointers and stuff 00:29:09.020 --> 00:29:09.300 like that. 00:29:09.480 --> 00:29:14.280 So one thing that is my weakness and, you know, when I was a Lutheran pastor for, for just 00:29:14.280 --> 00:29:20.240 shy of 10 years, um, one thing that was always a weakness for me is administration and just 00:29:20.240 --> 00:29:21.500 keeping all of this organized. 00:29:21.500 --> 00:29:28.700 And, and so, you know, I think, man, maybe just some, some, some better administration 00:29:28.700 --> 00:29:32.760 on my part would probably be helpful in just trying to get everything lined up and make 00:29:32.760 --> 00:29:37.220 sure that there's, there's, there's, there's, I don't know if you use the term classes, but 00:29:37.220 --> 00:29:44.260 something more regular in terms of trying to, to, um, bring people into equipping them to, 00:29:44.340 --> 00:29:47.740 to go out and witness, um, in, in the digital space. 00:29:47.740 --> 00:29:52.600 So yeah, I think something a little bit more regimented and, and consistent there would be 00:29:52.600 --> 00:29:54.140 helpful on the multiplication piece. 00:29:54.300 --> 00:29:59.860 But yeah, I think, uh, I think it's a question I'm really, really asking. 00:30:00.200 --> 00:30:04.740 Um, and, and yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm all ears if there's some recommendations. 00:30:05.380 --> 00:30:06.420 So I love it. 00:30:06.440 --> 00:30:09.380 And that, that's going to be, like I said, that's going to, for just at a personal level, 00:30:09.380 --> 00:30:11.820 that that's going to be an emphasis for me in, in 22. 00:30:12.720 --> 00:30:17.220 Um, you know, there's, there's very few DJ Soto's. 00:30:17.300 --> 00:30:20.440 Well, I mean, let's, let's, I mean, I could, I've rattled off four names. 00:30:21.040 --> 00:30:27.220 Um, there's, there's other guys in offshoots like the, uh, the Daniel Herons in, in Roblox 00:30:27.220 --> 00:30:29.240 and, and, and, and other platforms. 00:30:29.400 --> 00:30:31.120 I know DJ's doing a lot in MMO. 00:30:31.480 --> 00:30:32.220 Yeah, man. 00:30:32.220 --> 00:30:33.120 He's doing, yeah. 00:30:33.460 --> 00:30:34.360 Final Fantasy. 00:30:34.360 --> 00:30:35.680 And what's the other one? 00:30:35.740 --> 00:30:36.100 Oh man. 00:30:36.160 --> 00:30:36.500 It's wild. 00:30:36.500 --> 00:30:40.080 Uh, Rust, um, uh, Black Desert Online. 00:30:40.340 --> 00:30:42.440 Uh, you know, I've, I've got some friends doing some things there. 00:30:42.580 --> 00:30:48.560 And, and so, but, you know, even though we've got, I mean, I, there's probably 30, 40, 50 people 00:30:48.560 --> 00:30:51.040 that I know of that are doing something in, in the metaverse. 00:30:51.640 --> 00:30:54.400 There's 300,000 evangelical churches. 00:30:54.580 --> 00:30:59.600 And this isn't even getting into some of the, the, um, uh, the mainstream stuff that, that 00:30:59.600 --> 00:31:02.080 you're talking about within the Eastern Orthodoxy. 00:31:02.140 --> 00:31:09.280 And so now there's, oh my gosh, there's so many opportunities for education because we're 00:31:09.280 --> 00:31:14.040 really in this bleeding edge infancy, even though, I mean, I've some, I love DJ. 00:31:14.180 --> 00:31:18.680 He's been around for six years, seven years at this point, but the idea is still in its 00:31:18.680 --> 00:31:19.320 infancy. 00:31:19.680 --> 00:31:25.900 Uh, and, and so the more that we can get people excited about this and multiply this idea out 00:31:25.900 --> 00:31:30.640 to others, even with our listening audience churches, trying it, experimenting, you know, 00:31:30.640 --> 00:31:38.720 uh, Lakeland church is, uh, is up in Wisconsin and they've been, um, testing out this idea of, 00:31:38.720 --> 00:31:43.960 of a virtual reality campus, uh, maybe within the past year, really just starting to kick 00:31:43.960 --> 00:31:44.780 the tires on it. 00:31:44.820 --> 00:31:48.640 I'm, I'm not Stuart, my, my friends up there, Stuart McPherson, and I'm not saying he's got 00:31:48.640 --> 00:31:52.480 it all figured out, uh, but he's been brave enough. 00:31:52.480 --> 00:31:56.960 And I love that church because they have been brave enough to be, Hey, we don't have it figured 00:31:56.960 --> 00:31:57.160 out. 00:31:57.200 --> 00:31:59.180 Let's, let's just give it a shot and see what happens. 00:31:59.840 --> 00:32:05.000 And, uh, I can tell you they're on version two because version one had some, had some pain 00:32:05.000 --> 00:32:05.320 points. 00:32:05.420 --> 00:32:08.160 There were some issues that they had to go back and revisit. 00:32:08.160 --> 00:32:12.140 They, they, they, fortunately they didn't throw the baby out with the bathwater. 00:32:12.240 --> 00:32:17.660 They, they kept it around and, and, and adapted it, uh, for, for the second take here. 00:32:17.840 --> 00:32:22.480 Uh, but, but a lot of this is how can we multiply these ideas into other? 00:32:22.480 --> 00:32:27.260 So that, that's going to be a huge push for us in 22 and beyond. 00:32:27.760 --> 00:32:32.360 Hey, does, um, and, and you'll appreciate this cause you're, you've been talking, you know, 00:32:32.400 --> 00:32:36.480 you've, you've got a little theological bend to you, um, in this. 00:32:36.480 --> 00:32:39.900 And, and, and I, and I, I'm a, I'm a theology nerd and, and, and I love it. 00:32:39.900 --> 00:32:44.700 You know, I mean, DJ, DJ, I think is allergic to some of that stuff where he just doesn't 00:32:44.700 --> 00:32:47.020 want to get deep into those conversations. 00:32:47.020 --> 00:32:51.160 But, uh, I, I love the fact that, that you're wanting to kind of pull the thread here. 00:32:51.320 --> 00:32:53.820 So does, does VR have a theology? 00:32:54.360 --> 00:33:00.100 Like when you, when you look at this, how do you theologically line up what you're doing, 00:33:00.100 --> 00:33:02.400 um, at this point? 00:33:02.600 --> 00:33:04.680 I don't, I don't know if I have a macro theology. 00:33:04.680 --> 00:33:09.980 There are some really profound themes that I think are very insightful. 00:33:10.060 --> 00:33:15.020 And I alluded to one earlier, we were talking about how I can make myself look any way that 00:33:15.020 --> 00:33:15.460 I want. 00:33:15.740 --> 00:33:17.600 And I think that's deeply theological. 00:33:18.480 --> 00:33:22.660 Um, you know, because I think really, and, and this goes to my, kind of my Eastern Orthodox 00:33:22.660 --> 00:33:25.800 theology, um, the theology of theosis, right. 00:33:25.840 --> 00:33:30.560 You know, to quote the apostle Paul, to be transformed into the same image, right. 00:33:31.240 --> 00:33:34.860 So orthodoxy puts a lot of emphasis on being transformed into the image of Christ. 00:33:34.900 --> 00:33:36.160 And that's again, right from Paul. 00:33:36.880 --> 00:33:41.780 Um, so, you know, these, think about it. 00:33:41.780 --> 00:33:45.560 I mean, there are, I want to say, I want to say even millions of avatars at this point 00:33:45.560 --> 00:33:49.140 in VR chat millions and, and think about it. 00:33:49.140 --> 00:33:55.340 Every single user in VR chat, when they picked that avatar, they said, this is the one forget 00:33:55.340 --> 00:33:58.700 all of those other ones of, of all of those hundreds of thousands. 00:33:59.020 --> 00:34:01.320 This is what I wish to look like. 00:34:01.580 --> 00:34:03.840 And it's really profound what people choose. 00:34:03.900 --> 00:34:07.380 Now, some people, you know, they, they click around and they are 10 different avatars in 00:34:07.380 --> 00:34:12.240 one day, but some more, I think more often there's, there's a, there's a consistent avatar. 00:34:12.740 --> 00:34:16.120 And so what this avatar says is, this is what I want to look like. 00:34:16.400 --> 00:34:22.580 And what a Christian is, is one who sees all of the avatars of the world and they say, 00:34:22.660 --> 00:34:24.780 Jesus, that's what I want to look like. 00:34:25.440 --> 00:34:30.560 And, and so I think, I think that's really deeply profound. 00:34:30.560 --> 00:34:32.900 And I think there are a lot of connections to be made. 00:34:33.000 --> 00:34:34.400 Why did you choose that avatar? 00:34:35.080 --> 00:34:35.200 Right. 00:34:35.200 --> 00:34:39.000 I think actually, maybe that's a question they need to be asking more in VR chat. 00:34:39.880 --> 00:34:41.680 Um, because that could bring some interesting things. 00:34:41.760 --> 00:34:44.940 What is it about that, that you say, oh, this is beautiful. 00:34:45.220 --> 00:34:45.800 This is good. 00:34:46.120 --> 00:34:46.880 This is desirable. 00:34:47.720 --> 00:34:52.660 Um, and, um, I think, you know, there's a really great book out. 00:34:52.880 --> 00:34:54.520 I'm remembering, I'm forgetting the author. 00:34:54.660 --> 00:34:56.740 It's, it says, you are what you love. 00:34:57.440 --> 00:34:59.020 Uh, J.K. 00:34:59.700 --> 00:35:03.560 Snow, and I can't remember the name of the gentleman's that's, it's, uh, escaping me, but 00:35:03.560 --> 00:35:05.260 it was very, very good book. 00:35:05.260 --> 00:35:06.980 You are what you love. 00:35:07.740 --> 00:35:13.980 Um, and he makes the point that desire is the center of who we are as, as human beings. 00:35:14.100 --> 00:35:18.540 So really desiring that particular avatar tells me a lot about who you are. 00:35:18.540 --> 00:35:21.480 If it's indeed true that you are what you love. 00:35:21.680 --> 00:35:25.420 Um, scholar from, um, Wheaton College in, in Illinois. 00:35:25.620 --> 00:35:27.140 Let's see if I can pull it up. 00:35:27.260 --> 00:35:27.400 You. 00:35:27.760 --> 00:35:29.260 Yeah, it's, uh, I found it. 00:35:29.300 --> 00:35:30.480 It's James K.A. 00:35:30.680 --> 00:35:31.120 Smith. 00:35:31.300 --> 00:35:33.440 Uh, we'll, we'll put the link in the show notes to it. 00:35:33.540 --> 00:35:35.500 You are what you love. 00:35:35.580 --> 00:35:38.040 The spiritual power of, of habit. 00:35:39.380 --> 00:35:41.740 Free with an audible audio book account. 00:35:41.900 --> 00:35:42.480 That's right. 00:35:42.540 --> 00:35:42.900 That's right. 00:35:42.900 --> 00:35:44.720 It's, I can't recommend that book enough. 00:35:44.860 --> 00:35:45.960 I really can't. 00:35:46.000 --> 00:35:49.600 I think it's, it's, it's really, really, really good. 00:35:49.800 --> 00:35:50.580 Really, really good book. 00:35:50.860 --> 00:35:54.960 Well, I may have found one thing that's more controversial than talking about planting digital 00:35:54.960 --> 00:36:00.520 only expressions of church, and it seems to be talking about the future of the metaverse 00:36:00.520 --> 00:36:01.160 in the church. 00:36:01.380 --> 00:36:06.760 Um, I've actually gotten maybe 10 times more hate mail, at least YouTube comments. 00:36:07.260 --> 00:36:13.380 Um, a couple of my videos, uh, on, uh, metaverse got picked up by the YouTube algorithms, which 00:36:13.380 --> 00:36:13.840 is awesome. 00:36:13.880 --> 00:36:14.760 I love more audience. 00:36:14.860 --> 00:36:21.060 And, uh, but as a result, um, instead of the pro audience that I usually find, like the 00:36:21.060 --> 00:36:28.240 algorithm took me to a lot more con audience and, uh, the, the hate, you know, came, uh, 00:36:28.460 --> 00:36:31.920 seed of Satan, uh, I've, I've been compared to the seed of Satan. 00:36:32.520 --> 00:36:33.240 Oh my goodness. 00:36:33.680 --> 00:36:33.900 Yeah. 00:36:33.900 --> 00:36:36.180 I've been told that, uh, I'm an idiot. 00:36:36.300 --> 00:36:37.000 That's rich. 00:36:37.200 --> 00:36:37.640 Yeah. 00:36:37.700 --> 00:36:37.880 Yeah. 00:36:37.880 --> 00:36:38.020 Yeah. 00:36:38.020 --> 00:36:46.300 I mean, the, the antichrist will be born in the, uh, in the metaverse, um, that the 00:36:46.300 --> 00:36:52.920 metaverse is of Satan because it is man's creation and not God's creation. 00:36:53.380 --> 00:36:54.160 Think about the radio. 00:36:54.320 --> 00:36:56.420 Just insert all of those with the radio. 00:36:56.600 --> 00:36:58.480 The radio is the seed of Satan. 00:36:58.680 --> 00:37:01.300 You know, the, the, the antichrist will come through the radio. 00:37:01.420 --> 00:37:03.600 I mean, this is what we would have heard a hundred years ago. 00:37:03.860 --> 00:37:04.080 Yeah. 00:37:04.160 --> 00:37:09.140 And, and it's just, it's, I mean, partially, and maybe there's fear, maybe there's, there's 00:37:09.140 --> 00:37:11.220 an opportunity for us to explore with caution. 00:37:11.220 --> 00:37:15.820 You know, when people, when, when someone has a conversation with me towards, you know, 00:37:15.840 --> 00:37:22.400 the mental health of, of what the, the virtual reality, what the metaverse is doing, that's 00:37:22.400 --> 00:37:22.840 the converse. 00:37:22.920 --> 00:37:23.360 I'll be honest. 00:37:23.400 --> 00:37:25.760 That's the conversation that I'm like, you know what? 00:37:25.780 --> 00:37:27.020 That's a great question. 00:37:27.400 --> 00:37:31.940 I don't know that we've got enough information yet to answer that question, but that's also 00:37:31.940 --> 00:37:38.540 the reason why we're working with mental health, um, and, uh, at soul care, those types 00:37:38.540 --> 00:37:44.380 of organizations to try to find the answer to that and, and make sure that we're at the 00:37:44.380 --> 00:37:46.980 front end of that instead of the, the back end. 00:37:47.280 --> 00:37:53.200 Uh, but theologically, like when, when some of these things come out of left field, I, you 00:37:53.200 --> 00:37:57.060 know, I just, I'm like, and I know DJ gets this all the time, or he's, he's just like, 00:37:57.080 --> 00:38:00.380 I don't, at this point, I don't even know how to, how to respond to this stuff. 00:38:00.380 --> 00:38:04.760 Do you, do you get much, um, you know, I don't know, hate mail may not be the right 00:38:04.760 --> 00:38:09.080 word, but negative, negative comments, like how, how do you respond to some of this stuff? 00:38:09.560 --> 00:38:16.460 You're the seed of Satan and the, the metaverse is Satan's creation because it's man-made as 00:38:16.460 --> 00:38:17.880 opposed to being created of God. 00:38:18.340 --> 00:38:22.020 I think, I think just about everybody, especially in COVID changed this. 00:38:22.140 --> 00:38:24.660 I mean, everybody's involved in some sort of digital space. 00:38:24.660 --> 00:38:27.840 And I think my model is probably less controversial. 00:38:28.560 --> 00:38:32.500 My model is an intervarsity for the virtual world. 00:38:32.720 --> 00:38:39.240 You know, it's, it's, it's, it's really not that as controversial as VR baptisms of VR 00:38:39.240 --> 00:38:40.180 ecclesiology. 00:38:40.180 --> 00:38:48.140 Now that's something, um, I think probably, um, you know, that that's going to be more controversial 00:38:48.140 --> 00:38:50.000 wouldn't be the word, but that's probably the accurate word. 00:38:50.580 --> 00:38:56.680 Um, so yeah, I, I, I haven't received a tremendous amount of negativity just because I think my 00:38:56.680 --> 00:39:01.820 stance is a more, um, I don't know if you'd use the term conservative, more conservative 00:39:01.820 --> 00:39:02.740 stance on that. 00:39:02.860 --> 00:39:08.540 So, yeah, but, but I mean, well, I mean, as far as from the church community now, I mean, 00:39:08.540 --> 00:39:15.100 tons of negativity, an insurmountable or, you know, an indescribable amount of negativity 00:39:15.100 --> 00:39:16.480 from the VR chat community. 00:39:16.660 --> 00:39:18.440 I mean, people just crashing us. 00:39:18.560 --> 00:39:22.440 And so we have to be, it kind of feels like on the digital sense that we're kind of in 00:39:22.440 --> 00:39:27.360 that first century church, you know, drawing fish in the, in the sand to try to, you know, 00:39:27.400 --> 00:39:31.500 figure out who else is the Christian, because, you know, it's in VR chat, going back to what 00:39:31.500 --> 00:39:36.060 you were saying, the wild, wild west of VR social platforms, one person with a hacked 00:39:36.060 --> 00:39:39.200 client can take down an entire church service. 00:39:40.100 --> 00:39:45.320 Um, and so, yeah, I mean, granted we're not, you know, there's no AK 47s being pointed at 00:39:45.320 --> 00:39:49.940 anyone, but, um, you know, it's deeply disruptive and there is a tremendous amount of hate. 00:39:50.820 --> 00:39:53.840 And so I tried to, you know, I tried to love those who, who persecute you. 00:39:53.920 --> 00:39:55.760 Just the other day, actually, just the other day, was it Sunday? 00:39:55.880 --> 00:39:56.620 Was it this Sunday? 00:39:57.240 --> 00:39:58.540 I don't know if it was this Sunday or last Sunday. 00:39:58.800 --> 00:40:01.100 Gentleman came in, you know, saying all this vulgar stuff. 00:40:01.160 --> 00:40:02.760 And I said, my brother, my brother, I love you. 00:40:03.540 --> 00:40:04.000 I love you. 00:40:04.040 --> 00:40:05.280 Come, come, we come talk to me. 00:40:05.360 --> 00:40:05.640 Come on. 00:40:05.660 --> 00:40:06.280 I love you. 00:40:07.040 --> 00:40:08.900 And he said some more hateful stuff. 00:40:08.940 --> 00:40:10.700 He's like, my brother, come on, please. 00:40:11.120 --> 00:40:11.520 I love you. 00:40:11.560 --> 00:40:13.040 I want to hear from your point of view. 00:40:13.120 --> 00:40:13.740 Come talk to me. 00:40:13.960 --> 00:40:14.480 And he left. 00:40:15.180 --> 00:40:18.840 Um, you know, so there's so much, so much anger in that. 00:40:18.920 --> 00:40:24.060 And just trying to, to love your enemy, I think is, um, you know, there's been some days 00:40:24.060 --> 00:40:25.580 better than others in that regard. 00:40:25.680 --> 00:40:26.100 I was good. 00:40:26.440 --> 00:40:28.900 I bit my tongue well on this last one. 00:40:28.960 --> 00:40:31.640 I was getting kind of annoyed, but I, I kept the loving tone. 00:40:31.740 --> 00:40:32.700 So I was proud of myself. 00:40:34.700 --> 00:40:40.580 What's next for, for, for what you're doing is, are you, are, do you evaluate strategy? 00:40:40.820 --> 00:40:44.380 Do you, um, adjust things or are you just. 00:40:44.500 --> 00:40:45.800 Not till talking to you, Jeff. 00:40:46.580 --> 00:40:47.260 Oh, sorry. 00:40:47.380 --> 00:40:49.340 I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm messing up all the plans. 00:40:49.600 --> 00:40:51.460 No, no, you know, it's great. 00:40:51.640 --> 00:40:55.720 I tell you what, like really, like when we had that conversation the other day, I was like, 00:40:55.800 --> 00:40:57.500 man, that's a sucker punch. 00:40:57.600 --> 00:40:58.840 No, not like in a good way. 00:40:58.900 --> 00:41:00.500 The best way, like, man, like, boom. 00:41:00.620 --> 00:41:02.600 Like, are, what are we doing? 00:41:02.600 --> 00:41:05.380 Like we, like, this is a thing that can be really powerful. 00:41:06.080 --> 00:41:08.400 It's almost a, it's almost a misuse. 00:41:08.540 --> 00:41:14.040 It's a poor stewardship of the possibility to not be multiplying, to not be growing, to 00:41:14.040 --> 00:41:15.960 not be trying to reach more people for Christ. 00:41:16.100 --> 00:41:20.060 I mean, so it's something, you know, I was just doing what I'm doing, right? 00:41:20.080 --> 00:41:25.280 That was kind of the perspective, but I really think, you know, really what I'd pray for, 00:41:25.480 --> 00:41:30.560 and I don't mean I'm praying for it here, is that I, I need somebody who's better in the 00:41:30.560 --> 00:41:31.400 administration end. 00:41:31.400 --> 00:41:35.480 I mean, we've got a couple people in our community, but I, I'm, I'm the talker. 00:41:35.620 --> 00:41:39.860 I'm the, you know, if you want to call it preacher, I'm the evangelist guy. 00:41:40.020 --> 00:41:46.000 I, as far as running an organization, that was always, that was my, as I said before, a 00:41:46.000 --> 00:41:49.860 weak suit of mine, even when I was a pastor of the Lutheran church. 00:41:50.000 --> 00:41:56.660 So yeah, I think, I think either partnering with other people or I think that's gonna, that 00:41:56.660 --> 00:41:57.400 would be helpful. 00:41:57.700 --> 00:41:58.340 That would be helpful. 00:41:58.340 --> 00:42:00.620 You need to find yourself a Metaverse XP. 00:42:00.920 --> 00:42:01.380 That's right. 00:42:01.720 --> 00:42:02.120 XP. 00:42:02.460 --> 00:42:05.420 Gotta find an executive pastor for, for, for that Metaverse. 00:42:05.500 --> 00:42:06.400 Oh, executive pastor. 00:42:06.500 --> 00:42:06.860 There you go. 00:42:06.940 --> 00:42:07.180 Okay. 00:42:07.260 --> 00:42:07.860 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:42:07.860 --> 00:42:08.420 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:42:08.420 --> 00:42:08.660 Sorry. 00:42:08.960 --> 00:42:10.460 Oh, I'm, I'm talking to a gamer. 00:42:10.620 --> 00:42:11.000 I'm sorry. 00:42:11.420 --> 00:42:13.320 XP is not experience points. 00:42:13.560 --> 00:42:14.860 Not experience points. 00:42:14.940 --> 00:42:15.040 Yeah. 00:42:15.040 --> 00:42:15.920 I knew it was something. 00:42:16.560 --> 00:42:17.660 See, here's the thing. 00:42:17.920 --> 00:42:20.100 I'm so, I'm so out of the lingo. 00:42:20.440 --> 00:42:24.240 I'm so out of the, the, the, the circles to some degree. 00:42:24.380 --> 00:42:25.780 So yeah, no, no, that's good though. 00:42:25.860 --> 00:42:26.260 That's good. 00:42:26.260 --> 00:42:30.040 So, but you know, and, and really the heart of that conversation was, you know, what is, 00:42:30.120 --> 00:42:34.320 what does it look like to even disciple someone in, in, in the Metaverse? 00:42:34.320 --> 00:42:39.500 And, and, you know, knowing, you know, in Jade's involvement in this and, in, in Jason 00:42:39.500 --> 00:42:43.920 polling, like I'm sure there's some level of discipleship that's happening. 00:42:43.920 --> 00:42:51.840 Typically, typically the, the, the, the Meta crowd and the MMO crowd is doing that in like 00:42:51.840 --> 00:42:53.940 a discord or something like that. 00:42:53.940 --> 00:42:58.240 You know, I've got a lot of Twitch friends that are using discord for discipleship, but 00:42:58.240 --> 00:43:03.540 I could totally see something like that being used, you know, even in, in this meta space 00:43:03.540 --> 00:43:06.660 and just figuring out, okay, what, what is this process? 00:43:06.660 --> 00:43:11.200 Not, not that disciple making is a process, but at least it's a framework to kind of start 00:43:11.200 --> 00:43:14.920 the conversation and walking with someone, you know, towards that end. 00:43:15.300 --> 00:43:21.920 But I mean, really even to the place of, you know, we even started the conversation, Pastor 00:43:21.920 --> 00:43:25.620 Brock, by talking about how it's better to ask questions and make statements. 00:43:26.260 --> 00:43:32.320 And so the, the, the pastor, the people that we're, we're discipling. 00:43:32.760 --> 00:43:34.600 They don't need that seminary degree. 00:43:34.600 --> 00:43:37.740 And it's not helpful if they have all the answers off the cuff. 00:43:37.920 --> 00:43:43.060 As a matter of fact, the more answers off the cuff probably mean they're less likely to 00:43:43.060 --> 00:43:43.840 be listened to. 00:43:44.420 --> 00:43:48.360 Um, the, the authentic, Hey, listen, I'm wrestling with this just like you are. 00:43:48.400 --> 00:43:50.140 I don't, I don't have all the answers. 00:43:50.140 --> 00:43:51.920 Can, can I, can I get back to you on that? 00:43:52.360 --> 00:43:59.060 Like the, the authenticity of that right there, I don't know, actually earns you more points 00:43:59.060 --> 00:44:06.020 than, than I would suggest the guy that has that five step or that seven plan, uh, step plan 00:44:06.020 --> 00:44:07.980 memorized and, and, and ready to go. 00:44:07.980 --> 00:44:10.060 Well, I think there's a, I think there's a balance. 00:44:10.220 --> 00:44:17.420 I think, I think you either have that humility that comes with someone without a lot of theological 00:44:17.420 --> 00:44:17.980 training. 00:44:18.640 --> 00:44:24.720 Um, and, and then, you know, people who have more greater education, greater study, they 00:44:24.720 --> 00:44:29.160 can kind of be, there, there's the, there's the opium of being right. 00:44:29.420 --> 00:44:29.640 Right. 00:44:29.680 --> 00:44:35.040 And this is something I didn't realize for many, many years, you know, growing up as a, just 00:44:35.040 --> 00:44:39.880 the, the, a lot of times I would say what I'd say, and this continues to be a temptation. 00:44:39.880 --> 00:44:42.960 I'd say what I'd say for the power of being right. 00:44:42.960 --> 00:44:48.500 There's a, there's a, there's a, there's a intoxication to, to having the right thing 00:44:48.500 --> 00:44:52.480 and, and, you know, striking with rhetorical power. 00:44:53.020 --> 00:44:58.460 Um, but that's not, that's not gonna, that's not gonna bring anyone closer to Christ, you 00:44:58.460 --> 00:45:03.780 know, like making feels like somebody feel like they've lost, that they've been embarrassed. 00:45:03.780 --> 00:45:06.800 Like that's not, yes, I was really embarrassed today. 00:45:06.880 --> 00:45:08.380 Let me hear more about your Jesus. 00:45:08.380 --> 00:45:08.900 That's right. 00:45:08.960 --> 00:45:09.240 You know? 00:45:09.340 --> 00:45:14.960 So I think, I think, I think we can have, I think there is a weakness purely to someone 00:45:14.960 --> 00:45:18.840 who says, you know, I don't know the answers because, you know, I'm reminded of, of Peter's 00:45:18.840 --> 00:45:22.520 words who says, um, you always be prepared to give a reason for the hope that lies within 00:45:22.520 --> 00:45:25.460 you and, and yet do so with gentleness and respect. 00:45:25.460 --> 00:45:29.440 I think those last two gentleness and respect, I think the church has been lacking. 00:45:29.440 --> 00:45:30.720 So I like what you're saying. 00:45:30.800 --> 00:45:34.420 I think there's a human, I think there is something profound about the humility. 00:45:35.040 --> 00:45:38.900 Um, but yeah, I, I think there's, there's, there's pros and cons on both. 00:45:39.180 --> 00:45:44.040 Um, so, so yeah, but, but I think we, we, you got to start somewhere, you know, I've said 00:45:44.040 --> 00:45:44.640 this before. 00:45:45.320 --> 00:45:49.560 Um, I think you just got to get your teeth kicked in a couple of times too. 00:45:49.780 --> 00:45:54.440 Like you just, you, you got to embarrass yourself and, and, and do we love Christ enough that 00:45:54.440 --> 00:45:55.540 being willing to be embarrassed? 00:45:55.540 --> 00:45:56.600 Cause you learn from that. 00:45:56.660 --> 00:45:57.360 That's where you learn. 00:45:57.660 --> 00:45:59.060 It's experiential learning. 00:45:59.820 --> 00:46:05.660 Um, and so, yeah, I think, I think that's, that's where, you know, I think, and, and anybody 00:46:05.660 --> 00:46:06.700 can start with that, right? 00:46:06.740 --> 00:46:09.840 You know, just the person right off the bat, just as you said, I think is anybody can start 00:46:09.840 --> 00:46:10.860 experiential learning. 00:46:11.240 --> 00:46:12.560 How, how'd you get started? 00:46:12.960 --> 00:46:17.300 Did you just like buy a headset, walk in and be like, yo, Jesus loves you. 00:46:17.320 --> 00:46:18.460 And let somebody like rip you. 00:46:18.520 --> 00:46:20.760 Like what, what were those first couple of rounds? 00:46:21.200 --> 00:46:22.240 Oh, embarrassing. 00:46:22.240 --> 00:46:25.020 And, and getting my teeth kicked in. 00:46:25.280 --> 00:46:25.480 Right. 00:46:25.720 --> 00:46:33.540 So, you know, um, so I started off, so I didn't, and I've talked to Jade about this. 00:46:33.620 --> 00:46:35.760 Jade has a little bit, Jade's more long ball. 00:46:35.900 --> 00:46:37.900 I'm more like, let's get down to brass tacks. 00:46:38.160 --> 00:46:42.600 And we hung out once in VR chat and he kind of saw my style and he's like, man, I don't, 00:46:42.940 --> 00:46:47.360 so I want to go right into the realm of philosophy of theology. 00:46:48.000 --> 00:46:50.240 Um, and that's why I asked people, what's the meaning of life, right? 00:46:50.240 --> 00:46:55.200 Because immediately now, you know, we're in a philosophical or, you know, space, you know, 00:46:55.200 --> 00:46:57.280 the questions being asked, the big questions are being asked. 00:46:57.820 --> 00:47:02.120 Um, so I originally, and originally started asking people, does anybody want to talk philosophy? 00:47:02.540 --> 00:47:04.420 This was the best that I could come up with. 00:47:04.500 --> 00:47:10.460 How do I instantaneously move the conversation into a more philosophical, theological bent 00:47:10.460 --> 00:47:14.020 where I can talk about big things about meaning and stuff like that? 00:47:14.080 --> 00:47:16.560 So I asked people, what, what, anybody want to talk philosophy? 00:47:16.680 --> 00:47:19.780 But that's an incredibly intimidating question, right? 00:47:19.860 --> 00:47:24.140 Like, how many, how many, you know, how many people out of a hundred would say, yes, I'm 00:47:24.140 --> 00:47:25.520 prepared to talk about philosophy. 00:47:25.660 --> 00:47:27.380 But if you ask somebody, what's the meaning of life? 00:47:27.380 --> 00:47:31.660 If we all have to give answer to that, like whether we know it or not, when we got up 00:47:31.660 --> 00:47:36.480 this morning and started walking to the shower and getting ready, we were, we were orienting 00:47:36.480 --> 00:47:38.200 ourselves towards something meaningful. 00:47:38.200 --> 00:47:40.080 If there was no meaning, you wouldn't even get up. 00:47:40.820 --> 00:47:49.740 So, um, so, so yeah, I think, uh, changing that, that, that language to, to, to, um, what's 00:47:49.740 --> 00:47:50.300 the meaning of life? 00:47:50.300 --> 00:47:55.040 I think that really opens the doors to, to having these conversations, but how did I get 00:47:55.040 --> 00:48:03.540 started with it, um, I, I found a YouTuber by the name of, um, uh, Sir Moore and, um, and 00:48:03.540 --> 00:48:10.740 he was doing these videos and talking to people about divorces and their imminent death and 00:48:10.740 --> 00:48:11.740 all of this kind of stuff. 00:48:11.740 --> 00:48:14.320 It's like, man, people are willing to be that vulnerable. 00:48:14.320 --> 00:48:17.920 And of course, this is the big strength of digital ministry is people are willing to be 00:48:17.920 --> 00:48:20.640 vulnerable in a way that they're not in a brick and mortar church. 00:48:21.180 --> 00:48:25.960 Um, or often not willing to be this vulnerable. 00:48:26.480 --> 00:48:30.360 Um, and, uh, and I was like, man, I got to be in that space. 00:48:30.360 --> 00:48:31.160 I got to be in that. 00:48:31.240 --> 00:48:32.400 What, what program is he using? 00:48:32.460 --> 00:48:33.960 I got to find this program that he's using. 00:48:34.000 --> 00:48:34.720 And so VR chat. 00:48:34.820 --> 00:48:37.740 So I was originally just a digital, uh, what we call a desktop user. 00:48:37.940 --> 00:48:40.380 Someone who's just not using a VR headset at all. 00:48:40.480 --> 00:48:43.260 You can just, you know, use your normal computer. 00:48:43.460 --> 00:48:46.940 So anybody listening to the podcast can get into VR chat, start talking to people. 00:48:47.500 --> 00:48:52.100 Um, but then after being in there a while and seeing, I'm, I've talked with my hands. 00:48:52.160 --> 00:48:53.860 Anybody who's watching it on the video, we'll see. 00:48:54.100 --> 00:48:55.380 I like to talk with my hands. 00:48:55.400 --> 00:48:57.920 And so being able to do that in VR was, was helpful. 00:48:58.560 --> 00:49:05.020 Um, but yeah, so that's kind of how I got started just, um, you know, and, and, and recognizing, 00:49:05.020 --> 00:49:08.980 you know, what are good things to say and bad things to say, what is helpful, what's not helpful. 00:49:08.980 --> 00:49:10.780 I mean, I think that's all experiential learning. 00:49:10.780 --> 00:49:16.420 And so, yeah, I think that's, that's, that's, that's helpful that you don't need a seminary 00:49:16.420 --> 00:49:18.160 degree to start experiential learning. 00:49:18.260 --> 00:49:20.000 That's something I'm taking from this conversation. 00:49:20.700 --> 00:49:26.100 So other than desktop clients diving in, how do you recommend somebody get started into this? 00:49:26.140 --> 00:49:27.000 And any other advice? 00:49:27.320 --> 00:49:27.560 Yeah. 00:49:27.720 --> 00:49:30.800 I mean, um, of course they could get connected with us. 00:49:30.960 --> 00:49:35.920 Any, any advice they need, I'm an open book, you know, shout out to DJ Soto. 00:49:36.520 --> 00:49:38.260 I, I, I love that guy, man. 00:49:38.320 --> 00:49:39.240 He is a good man. 00:49:40.040 --> 00:49:45.200 Um, the first time I introduced myself, like, so I was doing my thing in VR chat and I saw, 00:49:45.380 --> 00:49:47.500 oh, there's this group called VR church. 00:49:47.800 --> 00:49:48.520 What's that about? 00:49:48.560 --> 00:49:49.320 I want to check them out. 00:49:49.400 --> 00:49:52.780 So I checked out one of their services first day up there. 00:49:52.800 --> 00:49:55.220 He's like, oh my goodness, there's another pastor here. 00:49:55.320 --> 00:49:56.000 Come on, man. 00:49:56.000 --> 00:49:58.320 Like you can come preach for us sometime. 00:49:58.320 --> 00:50:01.300 And I'm like, this is, this is crazy welcoming. 00:50:01.480 --> 00:50:05.600 And he was like, he wasn't like, it wasn't like, oh, you're, you know, you're, you're 00:50:05.600 --> 00:50:09.620 Johnny come lately, you know, here you are kind of, you know, piggybacking on what I 00:50:09.620 --> 00:50:10.040 started. 00:50:10.040 --> 00:50:11.140 Like it was none of that. 00:50:11.200 --> 00:50:11.880 There was no ego. 00:50:12.160 --> 00:50:13.640 It was all welcome. 00:50:13.760 --> 00:50:14.620 It was all love. 00:50:14.680 --> 00:50:17.580 And I'm, I'm really grateful, uh, to him for that. 00:50:18.080 --> 00:50:22.660 Um, so I'd love to be that for someone else who's starting digital ministry. 00:50:22.660 --> 00:50:26.460 So if you want to start your own thing and you need some help getting set up, um, you 00:50:26.460 --> 00:50:30.360 know, I'd love to, love to help that, you know, uh, and try to have that same tone 00:50:30.360 --> 00:50:34.160 with whoever, um, that, that DJ had with me. 00:50:34.520 --> 00:50:35.720 And multiplication just happened. 00:50:35.840 --> 00:50:40.180 Well, we need to get somebody to actually like, you know, have the conversation with 00:50:40.180 --> 00:50:42.000 you, but now we're in route. 00:50:42.140 --> 00:50:44.160 We, we, we have a plan in place. 00:50:44.160 --> 00:50:45.060 So, so love that. 00:50:45.160 --> 00:50:49.720 So, Hey, Pastor Brock, thank you for, for jumping on this. 00:50:49.800 --> 00:50:54.480 Um, by the way, if somebody wanted to, to find you on social media, like where, where's 00:50:54.480 --> 00:50:57.020 the best place for them to access some of the stuff you're doing? 00:50:57.020 --> 00:50:57.380 Yeah. 00:50:57.480 --> 00:51:01.880 So the best place to access me is twitch.tv slash Pastor Brock VR. 00:51:02.200 --> 00:51:06.000 So same as you see it here, Pastor Brock VR, twitch.tv slash Pastor Brock VR. 00:51:06.140 --> 00:51:07.820 You can get a link to our discord there. 00:51:07.920 --> 00:51:11.000 You can get linked to my YouTube channel and you can get a link to everything else. 00:51:11.500 --> 00:51:16.080 Um, if somebody wants to set up a meeting with me one-on-one, the best thing would, uh, 00:51:16.080 --> 00:51:18.360 be to go to our discord server and message me there. 00:51:18.880 --> 00:51:24.380 Um, but, uh, yeah, so all of my links, all of my social media stuff is all found right 00:51:24.380 --> 00:51:24.560 there. 00:51:24.640 --> 00:51:26.360 Twitch.tv slash Pastor Brock VR. 00:51:26.560 --> 00:51:27.080 Love it. 00:51:27.220 --> 00:51:31.180 So yeah, we'll put links to all that in the show notes and we'll grab the discord, uh, 00:51:31.180 --> 00:51:32.660 server as well. 00:51:32.800 --> 00:51:35.200 But so Pastor Brock, thank you for the time here. 00:51:35.300 --> 00:51:36.400 Have, have loved this. 00:51:36.720 --> 00:51:39.720 Thank you for asking the big questions, man, that I don't have answers to. 00:51:39.800 --> 00:51:42.100 Cause that, that gets me, that gets me percolating. 00:51:42.180 --> 00:51:45.360 That gets me thinking about, uh, about answers to those. 00:51:45.440 --> 00:51:46.060 So I appreciate it. 00:51:46.140 --> 00:51:50.120 No, the meta, the metaverse, um, is, is going to be a mission field of the future. 00:51:50.200 --> 00:51:51.520 Uh, guaranteed. 00:51:51.520 --> 00:51:58.320 And the greatest attestation or the greatest, um, the, the, the, the, the greatest proof of 00:51:58.320 --> 00:52:00.180 that is look at what Facebook just did. 00:52:00.980 --> 00:52:03.200 Facebook just changed their name to meta. 00:52:03.760 --> 00:52:11.260 And, and this isn't, this is not a thing that happens overnight for such a massive global 00:52:11.260 --> 00:52:14.220 company to, to pivot there. 00:52:14.420 --> 00:52:20.680 And that's a, that's a strong pivot towards the digital VR, AR, XR kind of space. 00:52:21.200 --> 00:52:21.600 Right. 00:52:21.780 --> 00:52:26.120 I mean, I, I think that that's really saying something and that should be a wake up call 00:52:26.120 --> 00:52:30.880 to a whole lot of churches, a whole lot of Christians to recognize, man, if Facebook sees 00:52:30.880 --> 00:52:34.520 the writing on the wall and they're, they're of course the owner of the biggest VR company 00:52:34.520 --> 00:52:35.500 that there is right. 00:52:35.600 --> 00:52:40.080 Oculus, um, for them to pivot in this way, right? 00:52:40.080 --> 00:52:44.760 Like, like, you know, Dick's sporting goods, isn't going to change their name to racquetball 00:52:44.760 --> 00:52:48.100 Kings unless they really know racquetball is a coming. 00:52:48.280 --> 00:52:48.560 Right. 00:52:48.640 --> 00:52:54.900 You know, and, and so meta is an absolute pivot towards metaverse, which is a VR thing. 00:52:55.100 --> 00:52:55.940 That's a VR thing. 00:52:55.940 --> 00:53:01.520 So, you know, you know, everybody's saying, oh man, I wish I got in, in Bitcoin back in 00:53:01.520 --> 00:53:02.100 2009. 00:53:02.480 --> 00:53:05.400 Like you want to do that in terms of a spiritual way. 00:53:05.520 --> 00:53:07.220 You should be getting, you should be thinking digital. 00:53:07.380 --> 00:53:08.920 You should be thinking, uh, VR. 00:53:09.460 --> 00:53:11.680 Pastor Brock could not have said it better. 00:53:12.180 --> 00:53:12.900 So thank you. 00:53:12.940 --> 00:53:16.640 We'll throw some other links in the show notes to, um, you know, some of the other metaverse 00:53:16.640 --> 00:53:20.780 type conversations that we've had, um, and, uh, love it. 00:53:20.860 --> 00:53:22.380 So pastor Brock, thank you for this. 00:53:22.740 --> 00:53:23.820 Uh, thank you for the time. 00:53:23.900 --> 00:53:26.720 And, uh, and so we're going to land the plane for pastor Brock. 00:53:26.820 --> 00:53:29.480 This is Jeff with the church digital and we stayed at church planning. 00:53:29.580 --> 00:53:32.460 Thanks for jumping on, uh, the podcast here. 00:53:32.520 --> 00:53:33.420 We'll see you next time at the show. 00:53:33.640 --> 00:53:34.100 You have a good day.