WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:03.800 Welcome to the Church Digital Podcast, powered by Stadia Church Planting. 00:00:04.440 --> 00:00:08.540 Through this podcast, learn about how God is using technology and innovation 00:00:08.540 --> 00:00:11.580 in digital and digital environments around the world. 00:00:12.100 --> 00:00:16.000 Our goal? To help churches like yours learn to be the church digitally. 00:00:16.600 --> 00:00:21.600 Our heart? That churches like yours will discover a newfound focus on disciple-making 00:00:21.600 --> 00:00:23.620 that will revolutionize your church. 00:00:24.120 --> 00:00:26.660 And now, your host, here's Jeff Reed. 00:00:26.900 --> 00:00:33.780 I gotta tell you, I am so excited. I'm so passionate about this idea of a digital-only expression of church. 00:00:34.220 --> 00:00:41.140 A church that exists in digital space. A church that meets the biblical standard digitally without a physical footprint. 00:00:41.440 --> 00:00:48.320 That honestly, whenever I meet somebody who's as excited as I am about this topic, it's a big deal. 00:00:48.820 --> 00:00:54.380 And I gotta tell you, here with the Roths, they are that type of person. 00:00:54.380 --> 00:01:02.520 So Jared and Ann have been friends, I would call them family, here with the Church Digital. 00:01:02.780 --> 00:01:05.380 Like, they are as close as it gets. 00:01:05.580 --> 00:01:13.600 Jared and Ann are co-pastors of a church up in the Pacific Northwest, but the conversation really isn't about that. 00:01:13.700 --> 00:01:21.640 You see that this couple, closer to retiring age than not, have launched and have created a research company, 00:01:21.720 --> 00:01:27.120 a research project centered around this idea of a digital expression of church. 00:01:27.180 --> 00:01:29.120 Now, it's a five-year project. 00:01:29.780 --> 00:01:32.440 They started this initiative here in 2021. 00:01:33.200 --> 00:01:41.200 We, myself, the Church Digital, State of Church Planning as well, have been very involved in the creation of this project, 00:01:41.200 --> 00:01:46.240 or at least in resourcing them with churches to start this conversation. 00:01:47.020 --> 00:01:55.380 And I'm excited to tell you, after 2021, after the one year, the first year of this project, we're starting to get some of the findings in. 00:01:55.820 --> 00:01:57.760 And the findings are really exciting. 00:01:57.900 --> 00:02:02.340 Some of the stuff I knew, some of the stuff I've been saying for a while, that, hey, this is the way it is. 00:02:02.400 --> 00:02:04.380 And it's great to get that validation. 00:02:04.380 --> 00:02:06.580 And some of the stuff, honestly, was a little bit of a surprise. 00:02:06.680 --> 00:02:08.940 We'll talk about it here in the podcast. 00:02:08.940 --> 00:02:14.960 But if you are wrestling with what does digital discipleship look like across the country? 00:02:15.460 --> 00:02:17.800 What is a digital-only expression of church? 00:02:17.980 --> 00:02:22.800 How can we really look at a digital mindset, physical and digital working together? 00:02:23.280 --> 00:02:25.380 What are some other churches doing in this space? 00:02:25.760 --> 00:02:29.340 You're going to love this podcast because it really digs deep into that, 00:02:29.840 --> 00:02:35.920 the understanding of what churches, physical churches, as well as digital-only expression of churches, 00:02:35.920 --> 00:02:39.120 what are they doing in this digital space? 00:02:39.180 --> 00:02:43.660 So, for the conversation, I'm bringing in Jared and Anne Roth, 00:02:43.800 --> 00:02:48.180 column founders of this organization called Sprout Digital, 00:02:48.320 --> 00:02:49.840 and myself, Jeff with the Church Digital, 00:02:50.020 --> 00:02:54.820 and Stadia Church Planting in a conversation that I'm calling 00:02:54.820 --> 00:02:58.160 Research and Findings on Digital Churches. 00:02:58.440 --> 00:02:59.840 Okay, everybody, here you go. 00:03:00.440 --> 00:03:04.320 Jared, Anne, I love the stuff that's coming out of Sprout Digital. 00:03:04.320 --> 00:03:06.780 Why did you get involved in research? 00:03:07.000 --> 00:03:08.860 Why digital church planting? 00:03:09.020 --> 00:03:11.840 What problems were you seeing that you're trying to solve here? 00:03:12.200 --> 00:03:15.300 Well, first of all, the digital church planting, 00:03:15.480 --> 00:03:18.900 the real decision behind that was that we have a lifelong passion 00:03:18.900 --> 00:03:21.980 for church multiplication, church planting, 00:03:22.580 --> 00:03:26.420 and digital plants are the front wave. 00:03:26.900 --> 00:03:28.120 They are the new frontier. 00:03:28.120 --> 00:03:33.480 They're the new front door, if you will, into people's lives, wherever they're at. 00:03:33.880 --> 00:03:37.880 And so we thought of what contribution could we make, 00:03:38.020 --> 00:03:42.100 these two high-mileage units, that would really help them. 00:03:42.200 --> 00:03:45.100 They are making the map for others. 00:03:45.440 --> 00:03:47.920 They're not using a map in these digital planting. 00:03:48.140 --> 00:03:52.780 And so we thought, well, they're building a bridge while they're walking on it, 00:03:52.820 --> 00:03:55.800 and that means there's going to be wrong turns and dead ends. 00:03:56.340 --> 00:03:59.220 And why don't we learn from their experience? 00:03:59.220 --> 00:04:05.220 That's something we could do is do research to evaluate their experiences 00:04:05.220 --> 00:04:07.620 and see what the full discipleship pathway looked like. 00:04:07.860 --> 00:04:08.000 Yeah. 00:04:09.040 --> 00:04:12.820 It's not a unique contribution, but it's unusual in this space 00:04:12.820 --> 00:04:16.080 of leading-edge church planting and being passionate about that 00:04:16.080 --> 00:04:21.860 is that we have some research skills and expertise, experience with that. 00:04:22.000 --> 00:04:26.120 We really have a high regard for well-done research that can stand up 00:04:26.120 --> 00:04:30.100 under the rigors of people that really care about that stuff, 00:04:30.220 --> 00:04:37.140 looking at it in terms of its rigor and the results that are trustworthy. 00:04:37.740 --> 00:04:41.000 So we thought, well, if we mend our passion and our experience 00:04:41.000 --> 00:04:46.080 and our love for the future and research skills altogether, 00:04:46.700 --> 00:04:48.940 well, it just kind of emerged out of the middle of that. 00:04:49.080 --> 00:04:52.480 We said, you know, we want to do research in digital church planting. 00:04:52.960 --> 00:04:56.660 And we asked the question, in a five-year run, 00:04:56.920 --> 00:05:00.760 what's a big five-year question that probably will take that long to answer 00:05:00.760 --> 00:05:05.420 and that probably needs to be answered in five years? 00:05:05.980 --> 00:05:07.760 And so this is the one we came up with. 00:05:07.840 --> 00:05:10.580 This is what Sprout Digital is solely about. 00:05:10.580 --> 00:05:14.000 And the question that we want to answer is, 00:05:14.700 --> 00:05:18.380 given a digital planter's platform and target, 00:05:19.260 --> 00:05:24.780 what model or models has God already demonstrated 00:05:24.780 --> 00:05:32.260 he effectively uses to fulfill a whole discipleship pathway in that platform? 00:05:32.900 --> 00:05:37.100 We think that as God calls more and more people to plant churches, 00:05:37.100 --> 00:05:43.600 that they will hugely benefit from some at least rough maps drawn by people that have gone before. 00:05:43.880 --> 00:05:47.820 We want to be the folks gathering that information and sketching out that map. 00:05:48.020 --> 00:05:55.300 Well, I got to tell you, I don't know that you could have picked a more controversial subject within the church realm today. 00:05:55.940 --> 00:05:59.300 I mean, just within the time of this recording, within the past week, 00:05:59.440 --> 00:06:01.560 championing the idea of digital expressions of church, 00:06:02.080 --> 00:06:09.220 I've been called the bringer of the Antichrist, seed of Satan, 00:06:09.760 --> 00:06:11.960 has also been used in context of me. 00:06:12.460 --> 00:06:14.140 YouTube is not a nice place. 00:06:14.200 --> 00:06:15.380 I just, I want to tell you. 00:06:15.380 --> 00:06:19.880 And, but anyway, it's been fascinating to me, 00:06:20.040 --> 00:06:22.240 especially in the Western church, 00:06:22.820 --> 00:06:28.680 how controversial this idea is and how people are so, 00:06:30.180 --> 00:06:32.000 you know, I don't want to be judgmental, 00:06:32.080 --> 00:06:36.540 but so stuck on the building and see importance on that, 00:06:36.600 --> 00:06:39.760 as opposed to maybe some of the other things that are highlighted, 00:06:39.860 --> 00:06:41.140 more biblical, no judgment here. 00:06:41.240 --> 00:06:45.160 But it just, it feels like we're kind of forgetting some of that stuff. 00:06:45.440 --> 00:06:48.040 Did you, as you've, you know, 00:06:48.060 --> 00:06:50.440 I know we'll get into the research and talking to digital pastors, 00:06:50.440 --> 00:06:52.480 and that's like lobbing a softball, I would imagine. 00:06:52.880 --> 00:06:54.880 Like that's, that's probably a more safer audience. 00:06:54.880 --> 00:06:58.600 But as, as you're, as you're talking to, you know, 00:06:58.680 --> 00:07:01.600 people that are interested in funding or other church leaders, 00:07:01.600 --> 00:07:04.920 or even like at a conference, just casually talking with people, 00:07:05.080 --> 00:07:08.900 like, have you, have you had much people like on board with this? 00:07:08.980 --> 00:07:11.880 Has there been tension where, where people aren't seeing that? 00:07:11.940 --> 00:07:14.240 Maybe what have, what's some of that experience been like for you? 00:07:14.320 --> 00:07:15.660 It's so funny, Jeff. 00:07:15.700 --> 00:07:17.420 And of course, yeah, it's your, your experience. 00:07:17.820 --> 00:07:19.540 Let me just give this fun little story. 00:07:19.860 --> 00:07:23.360 I met last week with one of our major funders. 00:07:24.280 --> 00:07:28.660 And he not only made a commitment early to fund, he put up matching funds, 00:07:28.780 --> 00:07:29.880 he fulfilled the commitment. 00:07:30.080 --> 00:07:33.560 He has also already committed into next year, into the second project. 00:07:34.080 --> 00:07:38.280 He has also said after the first degree, after he makes that significant contribution, 00:07:38.580 --> 00:07:40.560 there's likely another one in next year. 00:07:41.100 --> 00:07:43.940 Obviously, he is all in, in terms of his support. 00:07:44.960 --> 00:07:47.360 He's been listening to us for a year. 00:07:47.360 --> 00:07:53.560 And finally, last week over coffee, he said, now I think I get what you're talking about. 00:07:56.840 --> 00:07:59.960 It is going to be a five-year research project. 00:08:00.200 --> 00:08:03.240 It's going to take five years to make it happen. 00:08:03.340 --> 00:08:04.500 And that's evidence right there. 00:08:04.700 --> 00:08:05.540 That's beautiful. 00:08:06.000 --> 00:08:11.620 So frankly, we have been rather discreet about the people that we have bothered with this idea. 00:08:12.740 --> 00:08:19.180 We, we know that we are studying innovators and on the distribution of innovation curve, 00:08:19.320 --> 00:08:25.180 there aren't even early adopters in view yet, let alone the late adopters, 00:08:25.340 --> 00:08:27.280 but the laggards are out in force. 00:08:27.520 --> 00:08:30.640 And so you only have two groups of people to talk to. 00:08:30.760 --> 00:08:33.420 You've got the innovators and you've got the laggards. 00:08:33.900 --> 00:08:35.700 There's no way to bridge that gap. 00:08:35.840 --> 00:08:37.760 Maybe in five years, we'll get closer. 00:08:37.760 --> 00:08:46.180 But in the meantime, this is highly controversial, in part because I think it is as transformational 00:08:46.180 --> 00:08:47.500 as the Reformation. 00:08:48.420 --> 00:08:50.460 God has always used technology. 00:08:50.740 --> 00:08:51.720 That's been controversial. 00:08:52.220 --> 00:09:01.640 The first century, the gospel exploded through the Roman Empire in 60 years using, in part, technology. 00:09:02.120 --> 00:09:02.840 Unprecedented Roman road system. 00:09:02.840 --> 00:09:08.580 Unprecedented, international for them language of commerce Greek. 00:09:09.340 --> 00:09:14.700 The Reformation, of course, was associated directly with the new technology, the printing press. 00:09:15.040 --> 00:09:25.000 I believe that this is a season of the Reformation of the church, and it is primarily not a theological or ecclesiastical issue. 00:09:25.380 --> 00:09:27.380 It is primarily a technology issue. 00:09:27.380 --> 00:09:37.500 And the technology is the disruption, and it's going to be a wonderful disruption in terms of the gospel and the mission being accomplished. 00:09:38.040 --> 00:09:43.160 And honestly, it's really a matter of vision casting going on because it is about the future. 00:09:43.700 --> 00:09:45.020 It isn't all here yet. 00:09:45.160 --> 00:09:46.280 The map isn't made. 00:09:46.600 --> 00:09:54.500 There's not a track record that you can point to, which is one of the beauties of doing the research, is to get the word out more broadly. 00:09:54.760 --> 00:09:58.500 So I call it being sweetly relentless when it comes to the vision. 00:09:58.500 --> 00:10:00.920 And I think the two parts. 00:10:01.060 --> 00:10:05.880 One, the research provides data, and that moves some people. 00:10:06.780 --> 00:10:09.880 And the research also is providing narratives. 00:10:10.380 --> 00:10:28.260 And narratives help people put flesh and blood on what we're talking about, something that's really unimaginable to a lot of people, particularly after having gone through COVID and the forced use of technology for connection. 00:10:29.180 --> 00:10:35.820 Some people thrived on that, but some people reacted and are now pushing back at the idea of digital church. 00:10:35.820 --> 00:10:43.500 But just in our own church, as we shared the vision, we found both, that having data helps some people get on board. 00:10:43.960 --> 00:10:46.700 And having a narrative or two, being able to flesh that out. 00:10:47.020 --> 00:10:48.780 Real human beings are behind this. 00:10:49.140 --> 00:10:52.460 Real people's lives are being changed and transformed by Jesus. 00:10:52.960 --> 00:11:00.580 So I think the more research we can do will help those who are forging that path, writing the map, drawing the map. 00:11:01.340 --> 00:11:03.160 Yeah, whatever imagery you use there. 00:11:03.720 --> 00:11:04.720 I love it, yeah. 00:11:04.720 --> 00:11:10.380 And the ability to use that data, to tell some of those narratives, to try to sway. 00:11:10.880 --> 00:11:20.200 You know, oftentimes I say, and it's a Henry Blackaby quote back from Experiencing God, before I was born, look and see where God is moving and pray about joining him in his work. 00:11:20.320 --> 00:11:33.720 And you guys have literally become the mouthpiece, at least step one of a five-year plan towards championing the idea, hopefully championing, assuming the data holds up, of digital expressions of church. 00:11:33.720 --> 00:11:35.560 So, hey, let's get into it here. 00:11:35.940 --> 00:11:37.140 What was this process? 00:11:37.520 --> 00:11:39.160 Like, so who did you talk to? 00:11:39.280 --> 00:11:40.260 How did you talk to them? 00:11:40.380 --> 00:12:03.540 Like, how did you know, this is going to be brief, but it's really important from our point of view, because, again, we wanted to produce a product that was credible enough, for example, for doctoral students that are right now beginning to do their research in this space, for them to have some kind of literature to report to. 00:12:03.540 --> 00:12:15.300 We did not make this an academically designed project in terms of its presentation, but it has academic rigor in terms of how we put it together. 00:12:15.420 --> 00:12:20.880 So, just briefly on that, and for some of your listeners, they're going to really appreciate this. 00:12:21.480 --> 00:12:23.080 With Jeff's help, thank you. 00:12:23.840 --> 00:12:27.840 We identified 49 churches to invite to participate in the project. 00:12:28.440 --> 00:12:32.200 Many of those were fidgetal churches, physical and digital. 00:12:32.880 --> 00:12:37.740 And some of those, as many as we could identify, were digital-only church planters. 00:12:37.880 --> 00:12:40.160 So, we'll talk about fidgetal and digital-only. 00:12:40.800 --> 00:12:46.240 Each participant that chose to participate, and by the way, these folks are hungry for friends. 00:12:46.240 --> 00:12:52.520 We had a 65% return rate of invitations to participants. 00:12:53.680 --> 00:12:59.660 If you're doing research with pastors and you get 20%, you thank God many times over. 00:12:59.800 --> 00:13:02.960 Pastors do not participate in these kinds of projects. 00:13:03.540 --> 00:13:07.980 It was an astounding response, and it required a significant commitment. 00:13:08.540 --> 00:13:27.840 Each of the participants was interviewed by Zoom for an hour across a wide range of personal context, ministry topics, asked about their personal life, church background, their perceptions of church and leadership, and digital church evangelism, and discipleship, and benefits and risks, and church oversight and management. 00:13:28.260 --> 00:13:29.180 Sounds like a mess? 00:13:29.520 --> 00:13:31.260 It was intended to be a mess. 00:13:32.000 --> 00:13:35.460 Because all of these questions were not testing a hypothesis. 00:13:36.260 --> 00:13:39.960 We're not smart enough to have hypothesis to test. 00:13:40.260 --> 00:13:41.620 There was no null hypothesis. 00:13:42.440 --> 00:13:51.740 We are smart enough to know that God is doing something new and innovative, and if we ask enough questions and stimulate enough conversation, that good stuff will emerge out of it. 00:13:52.300 --> 00:13:56.160 And that is an approach of research called grounded theory. 00:13:56.320 --> 00:14:01.580 When you don't know what questions you're asking, you just stir up the ground and see what emerges. 00:14:02.340 --> 00:14:06.140 And out of those interviews, all of them then were transcribed. 00:14:06.260 --> 00:14:08.260 All of the phrases were coded. 00:14:08.760 --> 00:14:14.960 Then those phrases were analyzed statistically, and we saw what emerged out of it. 00:14:15.100 --> 00:14:26.020 And the discoveries that we have in this first of five projects is what emerged to the surface out of these conversations with digital and digital pastors. 00:14:26.260 --> 00:14:32.300 And what we're really after in this first run was, can we discover some new models of digital church? 00:14:32.600 --> 00:14:37.760 Can we discover some new discipleship pathways in digital spaces? 00:14:37.920 --> 00:14:40.140 Can we begin to find some best practices? 00:14:40.140 --> 00:14:54.040 And then because of our interest in emotional intelligence and how that's so directly affected to a leader's effectiveness, beginning to establish an EI database for both digital pastors and digital planters. 00:14:54.640 --> 00:14:56.680 Yeah, and I want to get into the EI. 00:14:56.940 --> 00:15:00.120 Just for clarification, because the audience, EI, explain what that is. 00:15:00.300 --> 00:15:04.300 Emotional intelligence, and probably most of your viewers are familiar with that. 00:15:04.380 --> 00:15:05.480 There's three major streams. 00:15:05.680 --> 00:15:07.780 All of them are legitimate and credible. 00:15:08.400 --> 00:15:12.320 The one we use is called the EQI, the Emotional Quotient Inventory. 00:15:12.500 --> 00:15:14.500 It comes from Barone's theory and work. 00:15:15.080 --> 00:15:22.100 We use that tool because it's the one that is most highly associated with effective professional and occupational life. 00:15:22.760 --> 00:15:27.460 And other areas of ministry have been profiled in terms of EI profiles to those roles. 00:15:27.460 --> 00:15:32.800 We hope to establish that eventually with planters in the digital space. 00:15:33.420 --> 00:15:37.680 Audience, in case you haven't figured this out, you will be smarter listening to this podcast episode. 00:15:37.840 --> 00:15:47.200 We are elevating the notch of academia and educational understanding in here, just talking about EI and EQI. 00:15:47.400 --> 00:15:48.520 I'm in love with this. 00:15:48.640 --> 00:15:48.740 Okay. 00:15:49.040 --> 00:15:49.460 Hey, look. 00:15:49.540 --> 00:15:52.460 So you mentioned digital only. 00:15:53.040 --> 00:15:53.860 I'll be honest. 00:15:53.920 --> 00:16:05.180 Digital only has a special place in my heart just because of the sheer disruptive nature of these types of people and the backlash that they get within some of the church community. 00:16:05.180 --> 00:16:08.320 I don't want to overstate, but there are some people that are against the idea. 00:16:08.940 --> 00:16:16.920 But digital, you know, obviously so many churches took a hard left in this COVID season and are trying to figure out the balance of that. 00:16:17.000 --> 00:16:25.960 So maybe just even looking at those two, digital pastors, digital only pastors, is this like a really apples to apples comparison? 00:16:25.960 --> 00:16:35.100 Are there differences between a digital pastor in a existing physical church versus a planter that's going completely separate? 00:16:35.620 --> 00:16:38.260 What were some of the similarities and differences that you ran into? 00:16:38.600 --> 00:16:42.440 Yeah, I think that we see it as apples to oranges, really. 00:16:43.260 --> 00:16:46.580 Both are fruits that you harvest a little differently. 00:16:47.160 --> 00:16:54.800 They're both committed to digital connection and engagement, and they're passionate about making disciples as the mission of the church. 00:16:55.500 --> 00:16:59.060 They even have similar views about what defines a church. 00:16:59.060 --> 00:17:11.220 They pretty much agreed that a church could take many forms and many structures, but it had to meet the activity criteria that you see in Acts 2, 42 through 47. 00:17:12.580 --> 00:17:21.160 They're equally committed to a biblical discipleship pathway, and all of them believe that different skills are required for digital ministry. 00:17:21.300 --> 00:17:25.840 They actually agree about that, even though they're in two different realms. 00:17:26.320 --> 00:17:31.560 So if we had them all in the same room and we were discussing those topics, they would all love each other and hugs and kisses. 00:17:32.180 --> 00:17:36.940 If we brought up these following differences, we probably will have an ecclesiastical war. 00:17:40.560 --> 00:17:48.740 For example, as persons, digital planters have a broader range of emotional intelligence profiles. 00:17:49.400 --> 00:17:56.920 We don't know enough about that to say a lot about it, but I cannot wait for three or four or five years when we have a larger data set. 00:17:57.540 --> 00:18:04.860 What we do know is we know what effective lead pastors, senior pastors profile that is. 00:18:04.940 --> 00:18:20.100 We have a lot of information about staff members and most, not all, but most of the fidgetal pastors are in a church context with multiple staff and they serve out of that context on the digital side. 00:18:20.840 --> 00:18:29.180 Just briefly, in this first round, those pastors tended to have a fairly common emotional intelligence profile. 00:18:32.180 --> 00:18:40.020 And in contrast, the digital only pastors have extremely different profiles. 00:18:40.820 --> 00:18:48.540 And we can't wait to flesh that out because we think that probably those profiles are not so much going to be associated with success in general, 00:18:48.680 --> 00:18:54.380 but success particularly within the platform and the target audience that God has called them to serve. 00:18:54.740 --> 00:18:56.860 So we're going to put that on the shelf for now. 00:18:56.860 --> 00:19:05.920 But these folks, from an EI perspective, are falling out into very different distributions in terms of EI profile. 00:19:06.480 --> 00:19:08.200 We thought that might be the case. 00:19:08.380 --> 00:19:16.860 It's frankly fun for me to see emerge because the implications are many more people can be engaged in starting and leading churches 00:19:16.860 --> 00:19:24.560 than may have been able to be engaged in our platform-driven kind of church that we've done in the physical setting in the past. 00:19:24.740 --> 00:19:34.460 Another difference is digital planners, they believe to their core that the entire discipleship pathway can be accomplished online. 00:19:35.840 --> 00:19:41.920 And almost to the person on the fidgetal side, there is disagreement with that notion. 00:19:42.580 --> 00:19:54.880 And the belief on the fidgetal side that at some point in the discipleship pathway, individuals must connect face-to-face in some kind of form of physical community. 00:19:56.100 --> 00:20:00.340 Similarly, the physical pastors tend to be part of physical church staff. 00:20:00.500 --> 00:20:04.860 And so they're associated with the relational and institutional support of that context. 00:20:05.100 --> 00:20:17.220 In contrast, our digital pastors, we found some highly independent, somewhat isolated, generally not very encouraged by other church leaders in their venue. 00:20:17.660 --> 00:20:20.280 No wonder they responded to the research project. 00:20:20.420 --> 00:20:23.620 They got to have a conversation with someone that was nice for an hour. 00:20:24.000 --> 00:20:30.740 That's one of the other observations just on their differences, a personality measure, extrovert, introvert. 00:20:31.040 --> 00:20:45.980 And again, we haven't studied enough a larger sample base to know for certain, but the percentage of introverts that are in the digital space is much higher than it is in the in-person space. 00:20:46.060 --> 00:20:48.240 And it's a mix in the in-person, we know that. 00:20:48.380 --> 00:20:52.780 But the digital planners tend toward introversion. 00:20:53.600 --> 00:21:05.300 That has been something that I've noticed, you know, and I have an unscientific, I just, as people approach me, you know, I'm able to meet them or even approach Stadia and I'm able to engage with them. 00:21:05.520 --> 00:21:14.420 But by and far, it's been far more of an introvert or the not, you know, Stadia uses the term catalytic leader. 00:21:14.420 --> 00:21:25.260 The man who's, or woman, excuse me, who's capable of standing literally on a physical platform, platform behind the podium and communicate and lead hundreds and thousands of people. 00:21:25.520 --> 00:21:28.520 The typical digital planter is not that type of person. 00:21:29.160 --> 00:21:34.520 And I love the fact that you found that because I get to say I was right. 00:21:34.520 --> 00:21:44.640 And it's very rare in life that I can say those words and I'm saying them right now because I've got Sprout Digital backing me up that's saying I was right. 00:21:44.720 --> 00:21:45.360 So well done. 00:21:45.820 --> 00:21:50.340 All the effort paid off just in that one little factoid right there. 00:21:50.780 --> 00:21:52.240 Well, anything else to look at at this point? 00:21:52.240 --> 00:22:03.360 I just might mention this, Jeff, as it relates to that profile, if it emerges, just like the great work that Stadia does in the assessment discovery process now, 00:22:03.940 --> 00:22:12.580 it's the experience of many, many others that have gone before that has allowed these data sets and these indicators to emerge 00:22:12.580 --> 00:22:25.320 so that now Stadia and that environment can provide an excellent assessment process because they know a whole group of criteria that they are assessing against. 00:22:26.560 --> 00:22:35.200 And it's very possible that we're going to discover that same kind of knowledge on the digital side. 00:22:35.340 --> 00:22:38.100 And again, that's why we are platform and target specific. 00:22:38.100 --> 00:22:44.380 It's down to that granular level because obviously there are many platforms and there are many target audiences. 00:22:45.120 --> 00:22:54.820 But wouldn't it be a great thing for selection, training, and coaching of digital church planners for the future if we can say God tends to use this kind of person in this kind of space? 00:22:55.400 --> 00:23:04.320 And if you use this kind of idea or model, it might increase the likelihood that your church will actually accomplish the entire discipleship pathway. 00:23:04.740 --> 00:23:09.940 That'll be such an interesting conversation and just as we're examining into the future. 00:23:10.360 --> 00:23:12.060 Well, let's dig in a little bit here. 00:23:12.160 --> 00:23:15.180 I mean, we said discipleship pathway a little bit. 00:23:15.260 --> 00:23:16.200 You're going to love this. 00:23:16.300 --> 00:23:17.800 I love this question. 00:23:18.300 --> 00:23:19.780 You interviewed dozens of pastors. 00:23:20.420 --> 00:23:27.860 And so you probably have dozens of different perspectives of what discipleship, of what disciple making is really about. 00:23:27.860 --> 00:23:33.500 Is there a common theme or standard like on this engagement pathway, this discipleship pathway? 00:23:33.960 --> 00:23:36.140 What were elements that really stood out? 00:23:36.340 --> 00:23:37.900 Digital, digital only? 00:23:38.160 --> 00:23:39.320 What were some of those perspectives? 00:23:39.780 --> 00:23:45.200 Well, one of the things is that it doesn't favor high control. 00:23:45.760 --> 00:23:48.160 It's a democratized delivery. 00:23:49.980 --> 00:24:05.580 And because of that, so you've got to be okay with that, not having to have the one, but the many, putting in content and interacting with your material in the moment. 00:24:06.120 --> 00:24:08.380 And as we know, everybody's not used to that. 00:24:08.880 --> 00:24:09.940 They're not Jeff Reed. 00:24:10.980 --> 00:24:14.680 And then secondly, being comfortable in the digital space. 00:24:14.680 --> 00:24:20.060 That's different than being highly skilled in the digital space. 00:24:20.320 --> 00:24:27.280 And that distinctive is important because it's about being comfortable because when you share, you don't want to evoke anxiety. 00:24:27.760 --> 00:24:32.440 That's not in speaking and sharing and asking questions. 00:24:32.800 --> 00:24:35.540 So that's what I mean by being comfortable in the digital space. 00:24:35.680 --> 00:24:38.500 They do not have to be an expert in all things digital. 00:24:38.980 --> 00:24:40.700 You can get a team for that. 00:24:40.700 --> 00:24:46.340 You can put the people around you to do that, just like an in-person pastor does with a different set of skills. 00:24:46.840 --> 00:24:59.280 The third is communicating in digital formats is different in that you don't get the immediate feedback of an audience other than the posting that you get. 00:24:59.340 --> 00:25:01.080 But you don't get the facial expressions. 00:25:01.600 --> 00:25:07.240 There's a whole lot that you're not going to see in the digital format, particularly maybe on these gaming platforms and some of that. 00:25:07.780 --> 00:25:16.400 So communicating in digital formats, being able to stand and deliver without a lot of extra things around you. 00:25:16.760 --> 00:25:28.240 And then the interaction, responding quickly, and other people are very immediate in being able to give feedback. 00:25:28.740 --> 00:25:35.280 And it favors the person who can be more immediate in giving feedback, who's not as, I have to stew on that for a while. 00:25:35.540 --> 00:25:42.400 Of course, everybody has some issues like that, but in general, there are people who are more reflective versus the more immediate. 00:25:42.400 --> 00:25:50.540 And this favors the more immediate person who doesn't mind just, you know, throwing out that piece again, that little less controlled. 00:25:50.980 --> 00:25:59.000 You know, I think one of the common themes in continuing on with some of your ideas there, Ann, have to do with what we often call teaching. 00:26:00.140 --> 00:26:03.120 That, again, this is a very blunt overgeneralization. 00:26:03.320 --> 00:26:15.740 But generally speaking, the folks in the fidgetal side had a little narrower view of, or a set of problems that they were dealing with in terms of the different skill set and teaching. 00:26:15.740 --> 00:26:26.780 So ideas like, you have to look at the camera, you're going to rely less on physical gestures, you can't move around as much, you're not getting immediate audience impact, feedback. 00:26:28.220 --> 00:26:30.840 Those are obvious, important skill sets to learn. 00:26:30.840 --> 00:26:37.120 But when you move over into the digital-only space, it arises, a whole new set of issues arise. 00:26:37.820 --> 00:26:43.180 And, of course, communicating effectively in different platforms is changing, you know, almost weekly. 00:26:43.780 --> 00:26:50.620 So it was, you know, just, you know, days or weeks ago that TikTok changed from its one-minute now to three-minute format. 00:26:51.140 --> 00:26:57.680 But in the research that's done, if you want to have maximum impact on TikTok, it needs to be 9 to 15 seconds. 00:26:58.440 --> 00:27:01.880 You can stream for multiple hours on Facebook. 00:27:02.260 --> 00:27:04.440 You can upload video for two hours. 00:27:04.580 --> 00:27:09.060 But the most effective, optimal Facebook videos are 13 seconds to three minutes. 00:27:10.080 --> 00:27:24.100 So the platform is so shaping in terms of the kind and the manner and the length of the content, how that content is delivered, how it's going to be accepted. 00:27:24.740 --> 00:27:29.600 And, again, when it comes to delivering information, communication is two-way. 00:27:29.720 --> 00:27:30.900 It has to be received. 00:27:31.380 --> 00:27:40.560 And this probably, in my opinion, from the research, is going to be a major issue that has been underappreciated. 00:27:41.180 --> 00:27:42.680 What does teaching look like? 00:27:42.740 --> 00:27:48.780 What does the delivery of biblical content and life wisdom look like in these various platforms? 00:27:49.060 --> 00:28:01.980 Yeah, and that makes for a season of awkwardness a little bit because the church that's used to controlling all of their environments and physical space is now forced to, hey, we're going to have to release some control here. 00:28:02.340 --> 00:28:10.420 And I really want to preach that 40-minute sermon, but that is not going to be effective if I'm streaming it on Facebook. 00:28:10.420 --> 00:28:28.840 And so now organizations like Meta and TikTok are really starting to define what discipleship looks like on their platforms and how are we, the church, are we comfortable reshaping some of what are, and let's not call it a biblical directive. 00:28:29.060 --> 00:28:33.420 40-minute sermon is not biblical, but are we comfortable reshaping that? 00:28:34.160 --> 00:28:49.200 And so it's, yeah, I mean, this is why people are happy to talk about this stuff because, and I'll just tell you, when I was a digital pastor, you know, if I brought that up in a staff meeting, I would either get laughed at, I would get stared at, or I would be told, stick around after the meeting, I want to talk with you directly. 00:28:49.920 --> 00:28:53.120 You know, and I've had enough of those conversations in my life that I know. 00:28:53.120 --> 00:29:06.780 Like, it's hard to be innovative, bleeding edge, you know, an innovator in this season, especially when everyone else that you're working with, you know, and forgive me for speaking out of turn, but maybe a little bit on the laggard side. 00:29:07.440 --> 00:29:11.960 And so, you know, guys that are out there that are championing this, I love what you're doing. 00:29:12.040 --> 00:29:15.840 Keep doing it and figure out how to do it. 00:29:16.240 --> 00:29:17.240 Let's talk here. 00:29:17.280 --> 00:29:20.340 I mean, even to pivot a little bit here and take a step back. 00:29:20.340 --> 00:29:28.240 So, you know, discipleship, we talked about the missiology of this, the digital as a mission field. 00:29:28.560 --> 00:29:45.180 It's funny, like even in conversations with digital pastors, I know the digital only guys, or I would suspect this, the digital only guys are far more aggressive on the mission field of digital than maybe some of the digital guys that are used to, you know, people coming to them instead of going after. 00:29:45.340 --> 00:29:52.140 What did you find just overall within evangelism, within digital as a mission field approach? 00:29:52.600 --> 00:29:55.440 So the mission is the same for the physical or digital. 00:29:55.640 --> 00:29:56.920 They all agree on that, right? 00:29:56.980 --> 00:30:00.560 The Great Commission, Matthew 28, and talking about that. 00:30:00.860 --> 00:30:13.980 But in terms of practices, yes, I think that what the research showed is that there's more initiative, more work done on the evangelism side. 00:30:13.980 --> 00:30:30.060 So, for instance, studying Twitter and looking for what's trending on Twitter and then developing provocative questions, literally to pull people out of the woodwork, if you will, out of cyberspace and get them to start talking. 00:30:30.240 --> 00:30:38.080 And that being an initial link or being on a gaming platform and solely for the purpose of playing the game with other gamers. 00:30:38.080 --> 00:30:44.740 And then in that to start talking about your life, just sharing a line or two here or there. 00:30:44.840 --> 00:30:50.260 But at the end to say, hey, anybody want to just talk about their story? 00:30:50.460 --> 00:30:51.800 You need someone to listen to you? 00:30:52.200 --> 00:30:53.480 Here's my contact info. 00:30:53.980 --> 00:31:02.980 And that starting or offering to pray for them at the very end of the whole gaming time together, just saying, hey, if I can pray for any of you, just let me know. 00:31:03.080 --> 00:31:05.080 Here's my, you know, here's my contact info. 00:31:05.080 --> 00:31:16.120 And literally that beginning conversation after conversation with people who are willing, because they go in anonymity in that regard to that person. 00:31:16.620 --> 00:31:20.320 And so that's, it's wonderful that way. 00:31:21.580 --> 00:31:25.180 The missiology and ecclesiology were similar amongst our participants. 00:31:25.820 --> 00:31:31.900 And that we expressed that earlier when he said the criteria in Acts 2, 42 through 47. 00:31:32.140 --> 00:31:36.920 They all really agreed that it's not the form or the structure of the church. 00:31:37.520 --> 00:31:41.560 It is the activity, what they do, what they accomplish together. 00:31:41.560 --> 00:31:48.260 And if you can do what they did in Acts 2, 42 through 47, then that's a great church. 00:31:50.100 --> 00:31:55.480 The physical and digital pastors generally believe that the ends of the earth includes all communities, right? 00:31:55.660 --> 00:32:01.180 Geographic, linguistic, generational, cultural, ethnicities, all of that. 00:32:01.260 --> 00:32:03.580 And now in those digital spaces. 00:32:04.100 --> 00:32:06.800 Now, digital spaces are the new ends of the earth. 00:32:07.260 --> 00:32:10.520 I'm not sure everybody was convinced in the study. 00:32:10.960 --> 00:32:18.220 The physical pastors struggled to believe that they think evangelism can be accomplished, 00:32:18.220 --> 00:32:22.700 but they struggled to believe that you can disciple in a digital space. 00:32:23.040 --> 00:32:31.420 You can evangelize, but discipling was harder for them to grab hold of because of the in-person nature of what they do. 00:32:31.620 --> 00:32:38.540 So digital pastors had no trouble believing that the incarnation includes that God can transcend. 00:32:39.960 --> 00:32:47.420 For the sake of his kingdom, he could transcend our cyberspace, any space that's put in front of him. 00:32:48.480 --> 00:32:55.680 And new social formations can happen in any of those spaces because of that for the gospel. 00:32:56.740 --> 00:33:00.700 So, yeah, that's pretty much what the study showed. 00:33:01.240 --> 00:33:06.380 It'll be, I mean, I'm so glad you're doing a five-year because it's, I mean, it's going to take a while. 00:33:06.920 --> 00:33:12.920 I cannot wait for you to open up globally and start to bring in some insight. 00:33:13.640 --> 00:33:23.520 Some of the stories, some of the conversations of what, and once again, non-scientific, just casual research, if even that, just Zoom calls. 00:33:23.860 --> 00:33:24.820 Tell me what's going on. 00:33:24.820 --> 00:33:33.340 Some of the stories that I hear of how God is using digital in a global space is almost embarrassing that we at the U.S. are asking. 00:33:33.480 --> 00:33:38.460 I actually, I had a global missiologist tell me once, 00:33:38.980 --> 00:33:40.800 Jeff, your view of digital is too small. 00:33:41.100 --> 00:33:42.720 Honest to God, that was his quote. 00:33:43.460 --> 00:33:48.480 And I'm like, do you not understand what I fight here in the U.S.? 00:33:48.480 --> 00:33:50.380 And you're telling me I'm thinking too small? 00:33:50.520 --> 00:33:50.880 Really? 00:33:51.680 --> 00:34:02.140 And it's so, I cannot wait as this expands and we look at more global what's happening and how digital is influencing and how some of those influences, 00:34:02.760 --> 00:34:07.340 you know, heaven forbid, could even come in and influence us here in the West. 00:34:07.720 --> 00:34:10.460 It's going to be an exciting time. 00:34:10.820 --> 00:34:17.880 Well, hey, man, what other, we talked about some specifics here with discipleship and digital as mission field and some things there. 00:34:18.040 --> 00:34:19.760 But what are some other findings? 00:34:19.760 --> 00:34:24.700 Like what's something interesting that maybe you guys ran across here when doing this study? 00:34:25.240 --> 00:34:31.340 You know, one of the digital plans, I mean, I, when we first talked about digital, I mean, I'm an extrovert. 00:34:31.440 --> 00:34:37.200 I was one of those people thinking, how are you going to accomplish the whole mission, the whole discipleship pathway? 00:34:38.240 --> 00:34:44.120 And this personal care issue, how are you going to take care of somebody who's, you know, had somebody die? 00:34:44.880 --> 00:34:46.480 And how are you going to get close? 00:34:46.480 --> 00:34:51.980 And I mean, one of the digital plants, they had somebody who needed help moving. 00:34:52.260 --> 00:34:53.940 I mean, that's a pretty hands-on thing, right? 00:34:53.940 --> 00:34:55.240 That's as physical as you get. 00:34:55.700 --> 00:35:01.780 And they actually found somebody else who's part of the church in that region of the country. 00:35:01.780 --> 00:35:05.880 And this was across the country, from Arizona to the East Coast. 00:35:06.500 --> 00:35:12.400 And they found somebody else who was participating in that online plant, the digital plant. 00:35:12.500 --> 00:35:21.400 And they drove there, rented a U-Haul truck, and helped this person move the hundred miles or so that they were going to move. 00:35:21.560 --> 00:35:23.800 And were the, you know, basically the hands of Jesus. 00:35:23.940 --> 00:35:27.840 And the rest of the church gave money to help with the cost of the move. 00:35:28.080 --> 00:35:29.780 Again, just a very caring thing. 00:35:29.780 --> 00:35:31.380 And they figured out a way to do it. 00:35:32.660 --> 00:35:35.960 Another one had, you know, a lot of people mentioned, what about in grieving? 00:35:36.500 --> 00:35:42.800 And they had a small group in their digital plant that was meeting in a city that was, you know, 500 miles north of them. 00:35:43.280 --> 00:35:53.940 And that group was in the same town as this person that they came into contact with that needed this, for someone to be by them and their loss. 00:35:54.060 --> 00:35:58.340 And they went to them and surrounded them, loved them. 00:35:58.660 --> 00:36:03.840 And, I mean, that woman became a part of the digital plant because of it. 00:36:03.840 --> 00:36:07.800 Because this was somebody just in their community who went online looking for help. 00:36:07.980 --> 00:36:15.780 So, I think that it's interesting to see the stories emerging of how you can bridge the gap in different ways. 00:36:16.280 --> 00:36:18.000 And it'll be fun to see more of those. 00:36:18.600 --> 00:36:19.640 Yeah, love that. 00:36:19.900 --> 00:36:20.980 Let's talk findings. 00:36:21.140 --> 00:36:21.880 Excited about that. 00:36:22.320 --> 00:36:23.800 Everyone says that they're committed. 00:36:24.060 --> 00:36:25.100 To making disciples. 00:36:25.880 --> 00:36:31.940 But very few of them are comfortable yet with their actionable definition of that. 00:36:32.700 --> 00:36:43.260 So, the discipleship pathway is still, the digital planters have their own, not doubts, but they are humble. 00:36:43.400 --> 00:36:45.800 They acknowledge we haven't arrived yet there. 00:36:45.920 --> 00:36:47.460 We still don't know all the parts. 00:36:47.780 --> 00:36:50.940 Basically, we're making the map and we're still figuring this out. 00:36:51.640 --> 00:36:56.560 So, the being able to say, this is how it will all work out. 00:36:56.900 --> 00:36:58.200 They don't have that yet. 00:36:58.520 --> 00:37:00.200 But they are working on it. 00:37:00.200 --> 00:37:01.920 And it's totally their intention. 00:37:02.240 --> 00:37:13.040 And then, as we listen, we usually hear some variation on Jesus called a Peter, to be a fisher of men, to follow Jesus, to be transformed by Jesus, and to join Jesus on his mission. 00:37:13.580 --> 00:37:19.800 So, there's that common theme of, you know, a disciple and what a disciple is. 00:37:19.800 --> 00:37:26.940 But the project did identify three major differences in perspective between the digital and the digital. 00:37:27.180 --> 00:37:34.140 Well, let me just highlight some things that emerged that are real concerns. 00:37:35.280 --> 00:37:46.160 There's significant uncertainty about what to measure and how to measure and conversation about metrics that might be helpful for the future. 00:37:46.620 --> 00:37:49.920 But, frankly, I had hoped that more would emerge in this study. 00:37:50.880 --> 00:37:56.040 So, this is obviously an area that people are really thinking about working on and needing some help with. 00:37:56.100 --> 00:37:58.700 What is it that we measure and how do we measure and what does that mean? 00:37:59.300 --> 00:38:13.240 I think what it's disclosed is that probably many of our metrics that we've been comfortable using in the physical church up until two years ago probably weren't very good KPIs, but we were comfortable using them. 00:38:13.320 --> 00:38:14.720 We developed norms around them. 00:38:15.120 --> 00:38:22.780 Probably didn't indicate for many of our churches, we'll speak about our own, for example, that really helped us know if people, if disciples were being made. 00:38:22.900 --> 00:38:26.820 So, frankly, I think the whole church is revisiting the metric issue. 00:38:27.860 --> 00:38:33.680 A second thing that we discovered was nobody's cracked the code on serving children and youth and adults. 00:38:33.680 --> 00:38:40.460 The family as a unit in the church in a digital space is just – there's experiments. 00:38:41.140 --> 00:38:43.200 It's early, early in the process. 00:38:43.880 --> 00:38:48.720 And particularly when it comes to children, there's the possibility of creating some great programming for children. 00:38:48.860 --> 00:38:53.380 In fact, a wonderful church in Roblox that is by kids for kids. 00:38:53.920 --> 00:38:56.340 But having said that, that's monogenerational. 00:38:56.420 --> 00:39:01.720 The real issue with creating stuff in children's space is safety and how do you monitor that? 00:39:01.800 --> 00:39:02.860 How do you vet people? 00:39:03.500 --> 00:39:05.780 You're 24-7 in that environment. 00:39:06.240 --> 00:39:07.920 And so some real challenges there. 00:39:08.540 --> 00:39:13.840 That music is so tough that people almost laugh when you ask them about it. 00:39:14.360 --> 00:39:26.320 It's not difficult to provide the production of music, but it is certainly difficult to engage people on the other side of the screen in participating using the art form of music to express worship to God. 00:39:26.680 --> 00:39:29.100 And who knows where we'll go with this one. 00:39:29.100 --> 00:39:39.500 But maybe we'll revert back a few hundred years ago where music was a, but not necessarily the primary art form that churches used collectively in worship. 00:39:39.500 --> 00:40:00.840 And we're excited to see what other kinds of art forms and practices will emerge in the digital space that will actually engage people in a spirit and in a soul, in an emotional and even physical way, in ways that music apparently is not going to translate as it does in the large physical space. 00:40:01.280 --> 00:40:06.200 That's really good. 00:40:06.200 --> 00:40:07.500 That's really obvious. 00:40:07.500 --> 00:40:19.380 That is maybe the major pain point, I think, with digital church and physical is because, at least in broadcasting the services, so much of worship has been limited, restricted, back to that musical expression. 00:40:19.380 --> 00:40:31.780 And, yes, coming from a guy who's literally produced tens of thousands of worship services in his life, you know, give me a haze machine, give me some moving lights, give me a couple subs on the floor. 00:40:32.260 --> 00:40:34.500 Yeah, I can get the spirit of God calling in that room. 00:40:34.740 --> 00:40:40.200 And whether he's actually there or it's just a well-produced service, that's not mine to say. 00:40:40.520 --> 00:40:42.720 And I don't know, I'm just running the show here. 00:40:44.020 --> 00:40:49.580 But, yes, there is an opportunity to—and this is really why we talk about how digital is different. 00:40:49.960 --> 00:40:57.700 We can just keep doing what we're doing physically, digitally, and maybe it works, maybe it doesn't, but there's certainly some issues that'll pop up. 00:40:58.200 --> 00:41:03.220 But maybe—and this is—I'll be honest, and, Roth, you know, I've had this conversation with you. 00:41:03.640 --> 00:41:17.520 Man, like, when we talk about digital-only church, I mean, the possibilities of what this is, the organic nature of what it can be, I think, biblically, it aligns maybe a little closer. 00:41:17.660 --> 00:41:26.600 If we're really looking at that Acts 2 church, maybe I think we're actually able to do some of that better in digital space than even what the physical church has evolved to. 00:41:26.600 --> 00:41:35.480 And this is why a lot of people call me the son of Satan and seed and Satan and all that, because, oh, my gosh, I just, you know, said something, you know, negative and disrupting. 00:41:35.740 --> 00:41:41.380 But part of this is, I almost wonder if we're using, like—I wish we could come up with another word. 00:41:41.460 --> 00:41:51.200 I make up words all the time, but, like, I hesitate to call digital church church sometimes, because at least here in the Western Civ, there's so much perception. 00:41:51.200 --> 00:41:57.000 There's so much preconceived notions of what church is, and it's not based on Bible. 00:41:57.160 --> 00:42:07.280 It's based on opinions and tens and hundreds and even a thousand years of, well, that's just the way that it's been, but that's not the way that it was. 00:42:07.620 --> 00:42:13.160 And so it's—I don't know what I'm—I'm rambling on to a bunch of researchers, so I don't know what I'm looking for question-wise. 00:42:13.160 --> 00:42:29.120 But, man, I feel that tension right now when I'm looking at what the digital church could be and some of that tension of how do we even start to swing the pendulum that way, maybe away from what a physical model is to at least a different expression of that. 00:42:29.120 --> 00:42:34.300 You know, I think—I think that it's so easy for us to sanctify the model. 00:42:35.460 --> 00:42:45.180 And then when you talk about the model as this neutral thing that may or may not be of service, that it feels like you're attacking something that's sacred. 00:42:47.080 --> 00:43:01.280 My view is probably not the prevailing view about much of anything, including this, but I have always viewed the incarnation of Jesus extending into not just the human form of the body of Jesus, but into human forms. 00:43:01.520 --> 00:43:07.360 So my belief is that the incarnation has come to dwell in us and among us for transformation. 00:43:08.360 --> 00:43:19.280 And so I believe that Jesus, even coming as a Jew in that Christmas story environment, is coming into human forms and using those human forms for kingdom transformation. 00:43:19.620 --> 00:43:24.860 He used the synagogue service for kingdom transformation, et cetera, et cetera. 00:43:25.360 --> 00:43:33.280 So we, for many years now in the West, at least, have used the small business model to the medium business model as the structure of our form. 00:43:33.640 --> 00:43:38.280 And we're organized legally and organizationally around the small business model. 00:43:38.500 --> 00:43:39.940 I think that that's brilliant. 00:43:40.280 --> 00:43:44.720 I don't think that that is disparaging anything. 00:43:45.120 --> 00:43:57.380 The church is not the small business model, but if that's the predominant form and how people connect and collect in culture around business and education, we use those forms for kingdom purposes. 00:43:57.580 --> 00:43:58.800 God comes in those forms. 00:43:58.920 --> 00:43:59.680 He meets us there. 00:43:59.680 --> 00:44:04.660 He meets us and redeems us and transforms us personally. 00:44:04.820 --> 00:44:09.540 He also comes into other human forms and does transformation within the culture. 00:44:10.160 --> 00:44:13.220 So the question is, how is the small business model changing? 00:44:13.440 --> 00:44:18.880 Well, it's changing into our buying practices and our commerce into digital spaces. 00:44:18.880 --> 00:44:37.100 So to me, it is a neutral observation that as culture shifts how it connects and collects, that the church will flow with those new forms incarnationally and the gospel will flow through and into those forms for kingdom purposes. 00:44:37.460 --> 00:44:40.260 So, again, it's highly disruptive. 00:44:41.100 --> 00:44:43.360 It disrupts our norms. 00:44:43.540 --> 00:44:45.800 It disrupts our economies of scale. 00:44:46.020 --> 00:44:47.300 It disrupts our budget. 00:44:47.520 --> 00:44:51.360 It disrupts how people are chosen and prepared for vocational ministry. 00:44:52.220 --> 00:44:56.560 The economics at this point are not encouraging on the physical side. 00:44:57.060 --> 00:44:58.040 Fewer people give. 00:44:58.120 --> 00:44:59.500 People that give, give less. 00:44:59.660 --> 00:45:05.580 It makes significant economic issues for what new forms are going to be emerging. 00:45:06.200 --> 00:45:11.000 Co-vocationality is probably going to be the norm. 00:45:11.600 --> 00:45:17.140 And then, again, some would look at that and say, thank God that we're actually looking more like things did. 00:45:17.140 --> 00:45:27.120 Maybe we've been praying to be like the New Testament church, and maybe this is a pathway that's actually disturbing and disrupting us toward that freshness. 00:45:27.820 --> 00:45:28.380 That's beautiful. 00:45:28.580 --> 00:45:36.040 There's so much change that's opening up if we just give it fresh eyes. 00:45:36.840 --> 00:45:43.280 And I really do believe that, I mean, the church that you described, I mean, really starts to lay the foundation for the church of the future. 00:45:44.700 --> 00:45:55.360 You know, within Stadia, probably within established churches, planting established churches, 25% of the conversations we're having right now are with people that are thinking co-vocational, bivocational. 00:45:56.080 --> 00:45:59.800 In digital environments, it's probably closer to 75%. 00:45:59.800 --> 00:46:02.740 A large majority are bivocovo. 00:46:02.740 --> 00:46:07.380 I mean, just today I talked with a guy, he's like, yeah, I've got a job on the side. 00:46:07.500 --> 00:46:08.480 I'm making great money. 00:46:08.560 --> 00:46:14.160 I'm not trying to change it, but I would love to figure out how to do ministry in digital space. 00:46:14.720 --> 00:46:26.840 And for him, like he's not looking for discovery and assessment and project management and like a lot of the typical model that Stadia and planting organizations would give. 00:46:27.300 --> 00:46:28.740 He's like, I'm already doing it. 00:46:28.820 --> 00:46:31.240 I just need to talk to some people. 00:46:31.660 --> 00:46:32.580 He's like, I'm all alone. 00:46:32.580 --> 00:46:33.700 I don't really know what I'm doing. 00:46:34.220 --> 00:46:38.200 Can you connect me with some people that are already doing this? 00:46:38.440 --> 00:46:49.460 And so like this bivocational model is much more like, hey, let's get you to plant a church in two months because digital is so experimental and things move so fast. 00:46:49.460 --> 00:47:02.640 And they're trying to learn, but also being ready to pivot and shift as opposed to a lot of the launch large models and things like that where it's so difficult to get going. 00:47:02.640 --> 00:47:22.260 And so the tension I would imagine between the digital and digital and digital and digital and digital gets wider and wider. 00:47:22.260 --> 00:47:28.520 I think you're going to see more differences come up even in my own life. 00:47:28.520 --> 00:47:38.080 It's, man, I just, I see, I'll start to have a conversation with somebody and some of my friends will say in the digital audience crowd, like some says, they'll say one thing. 00:47:38.140 --> 00:47:40.160 It's like, I actually don't agree with you there. 00:47:40.280 --> 00:47:42.780 And we can put a pin in talking at that later. 00:47:42.900 --> 00:47:49.660 But, you know, I do think that you can do this in digital space and that you don't have to have the physical. 00:47:49.940 --> 00:47:51.440 But what do I know? 00:47:51.540 --> 00:47:52.760 I'm the seed of Satan. 00:47:53.120 --> 00:47:56.280 So it probably won't work well for me. 00:47:56.740 --> 00:47:59.040 So what does the future look like? 00:47:59.200 --> 00:48:05.260 What does the church, as we're spinning and heading towards next, do you have any other insight? 00:48:05.460 --> 00:48:07.520 You know, look into the future. 00:48:07.520 --> 00:48:10.220 What do you, have you gotten to the place? 00:48:10.260 --> 00:48:11.100 Let me ask this question. 00:48:11.620 --> 00:48:15.340 Have you gotten to the place where you have an expectation of what you're going to find in five years? 00:48:15.560 --> 00:48:19.420 Or is it still nebulous and you're new? 00:48:19.500 --> 00:48:21.380 Have you hypothesized on this thing yet? 00:48:21.800 --> 00:48:29.300 You know, when we look at the future, we think churches will function more seamlessly between physical and digital worlds. 00:48:30.080 --> 00:48:39.100 And that the gospel is going to go viral quite literally, not just figuratively, but it's going to go viral to the ends of the earth. 00:48:40.240 --> 00:49:06.940 It's going to be able to go into the, not just gospel closed countries, but into closed family units, into closed social units like gangs, things where it's dangerous to even put your foot in the door of a church, of a physical place, but where you can anonymously go in and hear the gospel in a place where you might never hear it before. 00:49:06.940 --> 00:49:09.540 We're so gospel closed families as well. 00:49:09.700 --> 00:49:12.880 I think that we're going to be able to invade those places. 00:49:13.820 --> 00:49:22.140 The church will be faithful to its mission of making disciples because we believe Jesus is building his church and the gates of hell won't prevail against it. 00:49:22.700 --> 00:49:27.700 And that means that there's going to be that faithful ongoing mission of making disciples. 00:49:28.160 --> 00:49:35.960 And they'll be committed to pathways of transformation that for people to take place for individuals and for whole communities of people. 00:49:36.840 --> 00:49:41.080 And when we think of communities, we won't just be thinking physical spaces. 00:49:41.080 --> 00:49:43.280 We'll start thinking digitally more and more. 00:49:43.720 --> 00:49:53.080 People will think of the gaming platforms as a whole community that they're influencing for Christ. 00:49:54.020 --> 00:50:00.240 It will be more natural for us, more a way of thinking versus now. 00:50:00.640 --> 00:50:09.540 People look at you like you're crazy when you mentioned that God's really changing lives and people are getting saved in these digital churches and stuff. 00:50:09.740 --> 00:50:16.560 You really have to start telling these stories right away to help them believe that with real names attached. 00:50:17.500 --> 00:50:21.380 And that the church is going to expand particularly. 00:50:21.880 --> 00:50:23.520 And as I said, gospel hostile. 00:50:23.960 --> 00:50:27.540 That's how I'd like to go on because that's a lot more than just closed countries. 00:50:27.820 --> 00:50:33.880 That there are so many gospel hostile places on planet Earth, including in the U.S., 00:50:33.880 --> 00:50:40.920 where you can invade those anonymously and provide safety for people to actually hear the gospel. 00:50:41.460 --> 00:50:44.440 I think when we look to the future, we're very hopeful. 00:50:45.560 --> 00:50:51.240 I'm going to leave the negative predictions to some folks on YouTube. 00:50:52.280 --> 00:51:00.880 We look to the future and we see this as a scattering similar to the Reformation. 00:51:01.400 --> 00:51:02.860 There's some downsides. 00:51:02.860 --> 00:51:06.280 It's called Protestants because they were protesting. 00:51:07.780 --> 00:51:18.220 And fortunately or unfortunately, much of the movement forward in the kingdom through the gospel in the last 500 years has been by people splintering. 00:51:18.720 --> 00:51:28.040 But we probably shouldn't be surprised because in Acts chapter 8, that's exactly what it took for the gospel to get out of Jerusalem and finally to Judea and Samaria. 00:51:28.640 --> 00:51:30.760 Now we're truly going to the ends of the earth. 00:51:30.760 --> 00:51:47.480 And as Ann mentioned, this democratization of the gospel, when it is not bound by physical structures or ecclesiastical structures or requirements or licensure or profession, all of those things serve us. 00:51:47.820 --> 00:51:50.640 And by the way, we participate personally in those. 00:51:50.760 --> 00:51:52.640 We're not iconoclasts in that regard. 00:51:52.640 --> 00:52:03.520 But technology is bringing us to reform the church because it is simply not going to those places to ask for permission. 00:52:04.300 --> 00:52:08.200 It is a scattering that is going to benefit the kingdom. 00:52:08.380 --> 00:52:10.680 The gospel is going to flow into every nook and cranny. 00:52:11.320 --> 00:52:15.200 The gospel is the power of, I'm preaching, the gospel is the power of God for salvation. 00:52:15.200 --> 00:52:25.380 As the gospel flows and shares through all kinds of platforms and voices and streams, it is going to be effective in those places. 00:52:26.040 --> 00:52:36.220 And truly for those who anticipate that the return of the Lord will happen after the gospel has been heard in every person in every place, this has to be an exciting possibility. 00:52:36.740 --> 00:52:40.660 That eventuality could actually happen quickly for us. 00:52:41.320 --> 00:52:45.580 So we see Jesus doing a beautiful thing in the church. 00:52:46.660 --> 00:52:48.280 He's not afraid of technology. 00:52:48.600 --> 00:52:49.820 He has used it. 00:52:50.320 --> 00:52:51.380 We are using it. 00:52:51.520 --> 00:52:53.280 We are seeing people called to do that. 00:52:53.380 --> 00:52:54.620 We want to learn from them. 00:52:55.140 --> 00:52:57.980 We want to share that information with others that might benefit. 00:52:58.660 --> 00:53:03.640 And we expect that churches are going to meet physically for a long, long time. 00:53:03.900 --> 00:53:04.680 I hope so. 00:53:04.780 --> 00:53:06.260 I plan to be there frequently. 00:53:06.480 --> 00:53:17.560 But we also know that the blending between physical and digital, as Ann mentioned, is going to become almost difficult to describe for future generations. 00:53:17.940 --> 00:53:19.160 And this is my little story. 00:53:19.700 --> 00:53:22.600 Our grandkids are 7 to 12 years of age. 00:53:22.600 --> 00:53:35.440 And when I watch them with iPhones, I notice that these Gen Alphas don't differentiate between the conversation we're having and the technology that they're engaging. 00:53:36.220 --> 00:53:41.780 There's a reason that there's no frame around the iPhone face. 00:53:42.240 --> 00:53:45.240 It is to give the impression of seamlessness. 00:53:46.260 --> 00:53:47.580 Ann and I are boomers. 00:53:47.900 --> 00:53:52.700 Trust me, there is a seam between technology and physicality for us. 00:53:53.120 --> 00:54:05.700 But as this generation is emerging that in 20 years will be our leaders, they will have grown up in an environment that doesn't even think to ask the question, what's the difference between physical and digital space? 00:54:06.020 --> 00:54:07.980 It is the world that they live in. 00:54:07.980 --> 00:54:29.700 And as older members of the church and the kingdom, for us to be opening doors for what they are already experiencing in their enculturation, so that as they grow in the next few years and receive callings and giftings from God, that some doors will already be opened for them to naturally move into. 00:54:30.020 --> 00:54:43.320 Instead of being doorkeepers that close the doors on cultural norms, to be door openers that say, why don't you express yourself in the gifts God's given you and the environment that he chose for you to be born into, the church has a bright future. 00:54:43.920 --> 00:54:44.260 Love that. 00:54:44.440 --> 00:54:51.660 And as the metaverse, augmented reality, virtual reality, continues to blur that, I agree with you. 00:54:51.660 --> 00:55:01.320 I think it's going to be hard to separate physical IRL and meta and digital and all this. 00:55:01.460 --> 00:55:04.580 I think it's just going to all get blurred into one thing. 00:55:04.940 --> 00:55:09.320 And for many people, that's a very, very scary idea. 00:55:09.700 --> 00:55:13.140 They just can't reconcile that for whatever reason. 00:55:13.140 --> 00:55:15.500 And so, hopefully, time will tell. 00:55:16.000 --> 00:55:25.000 To your point, though, I do think the pendulum is shifting, and I think the future generations are not going to have the issues and the hang-ups that maybe some of our current ones have. 00:55:25.680 --> 00:55:27.180 Well, hey, let's land the plane. 00:55:27.280 --> 00:55:28.060 Tell me what's next. 00:55:28.200 --> 00:55:30.100 Like, where's Sprout heading to? 00:55:30.520 --> 00:55:31.260 What's next? 00:55:31.300 --> 00:55:32.380 So, you're on a five-year plan. 00:55:32.380 --> 00:55:36.940 What does year two look like as you're doing the research? 00:55:37.380 --> 00:55:42.520 So, year two, we want to do a global study of digital-only church planters. 00:55:42.760 --> 00:55:46.120 And they're best practices across the discipleship pathway. 00:55:47.740 --> 00:55:57.160 And just behind the scenes, we want to be the biggest cheerleaders in digital space as well. 00:55:57.960 --> 00:56:09.380 Because that's one of the biggest challenges is just what you faced before we had our conversation today of people discouraging and saying negative things to you. 00:56:09.540 --> 00:56:16.900 We want to be those people in these digital planters' lives that are cheering them upward and onward. 00:56:17.680 --> 00:56:23.760 And one of the things we can do to help that happen is connect them together in a global network. 00:56:24.040 --> 00:56:33.340 And that will be one of the goals out of these research projects is building a digital community of planters. 00:56:33.460 --> 00:56:43.880 Because talking to each other, just like planters in the hard coffee space, I mean, in the in-person space, you find you have similar things going on, similar struggles. 00:56:44.400 --> 00:56:48.100 But there's, you want also to be those external cheerleaders. 00:56:48.220 --> 00:56:52.120 And that's what we, we want to be champions, as you said, because that's more than cheerleading. 00:56:52.820 --> 00:56:54.140 That's where we want to invest. 00:56:54.280 --> 00:56:57.820 That's where we want to give our attention to encouraging them. 00:56:57.880 --> 00:57:08.920 So that's 2022, 2023 is prototypes for digital plants that incorporate best practices that were identified in the various platforms. 00:57:09.540 --> 00:57:14.560 Just an initial result of that, because obviously after five years, we'll have a lot more. 00:57:14.660 --> 00:57:19.340 But you don't want to wait for five years to reveal what you've, what's learned in each step of the way. 00:57:19.600 --> 00:57:30.620 So if, if those prototypes, if we're differentiating prototypes from what's currently being done, what we're hoping to do is to find the, the best practices across the discipleship pathway. 00:57:30.620 --> 00:57:37.320 So let's use an angle scale from a negative 13 to a positive five to describe one of those models. 00:57:37.420 --> 00:57:43.660 So there's, in his model, there's, there's all these points along the way. 00:57:43.920 --> 00:57:48.680 So we're finding the best practices at points along the way. 00:57:48.800 --> 00:58:18.680 And the theory is that if we can kind of knit those together, that you can create a prototype and you can say, you know, in this space, if you do this, that she's doing and that, that he's doing and this, that they're doing and put those together, you might think about actually launching a digital church with, with this prototype in mind and see if God actually uses your church to find people far, far from God and produces these mature reproducing Christians. 00:58:18.680 --> 00:58:19.800 So that would be a prototype. 00:58:19.800 --> 00:58:20.080 So that would be a prototype. 00:58:20.080 --> 00:58:22.080 Those prototypes then in the fourth year are tested. 00:58:22.600 --> 00:58:36.960 Our hope is then in the fifth year that we're actually able to see out of those prototypes, some models emerge so that now ultimately we can answer this question that compels us given a digital planters pat platform and target. 00:58:37.360 --> 00:58:43.760 What model or models has God effectively used to fulfill the whole discipleship pathway? 00:58:44.640 --> 00:58:45.520 Four years away. 00:58:46.400 --> 00:58:47.520 I love it. 00:58:47.620 --> 00:58:48.840 I cannot wait. 00:58:49.040 --> 00:58:50.280 Literally cannot wait. 00:58:50.960 --> 00:58:55.800 Well, I'm just trying to think all the things that are going to happen by 2024. 00:58:56.600 --> 00:59:05.380 We get to go through another election, but your research is going to be the bright spot of what's going to be a very interesting year, I'm sure. 00:59:05.920 --> 00:59:07.280 Hey, so, so we're going to wrap. 00:59:07.380 --> 00:59:08.260 This is, this has been great. 00:59:08.340 --> 00:59:10.100 These, these are two of my favorite people. 00:59:10.320 --> 00:59:17.120 We said it earlier in the podcast, but love the research they're doing and what they're contributing in this digital space. 00:59:17.280 --> 00:59:22.920 And, you know, we'll put some links in the show notes to get connected with them and some of the research that they're doing. 00:59:23.000 --> 00:59:27.060 So be sure to check that out, but we're going to call it and we're going to wrap. 00:59:27.380 --> 00:59:32.780 So for, for Jared, for Ann, this is Jeff at the Church Digital and with Stadia Church Planning. 00:59:32.900 --> 00:59:34.420 Thanks for, for jumping on the podcast here. 00:59:34.460 --> 00:59:36.060 We'll see you next time here on the show. 00:59:36.200 --> 00:59:36.700 Y'all have a good day.