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 Welcome to the Church Digital Podcast, powered by Stadia Church Planting.

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 Through this podcast, learn about how God is using technology and innovation

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 in digital and digital environments around the world.

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 Our goal? To help churches like yours learn to be the church digitally.

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 Our heart? That churches like yours will discover a newfound focus on disciple-making

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 that will revolutionize your church.

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 And now, your host, here's Jeff Reed.

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 Well, I started this podcast, this conversation, thinking it was going to go one direction.

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 And in about 10 minutes, 15 minutes into this thing, it went a completely different route.

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 And I got to tell you, I'm so excited how it all came out.

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 Hey, it's Jeff here with the Church Digital Podcast.

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 And I'm really excited to bring to you this conversation centered around Cornerstone VR,

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 Cornerstone Yuba City, Jason Poling's church.

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 Now, Jason Poling's been here on the podcast a couple times talking about his small church,

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 maybe two, three hundred people in physical space that launched a virtual reality campus.

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 Yuba City up in Northern California is his church.

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 We've talked about Jason Poling.

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 Jay Poe, we recently referred to him in a Pastor Brock conversation.

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 Evidently, when you do ministry in the metaverse, they give you really cool nicknames.

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 Except, you know, Jay, because Jay's name is literally Jay.

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 Another conversation.

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 Hey, so with this conversation centered around today with the podcast,

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 here's the reason we started the conversation with the podcast.

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 Jason Poling was telling me about how the physical church in Yuba City, Northern Cal,

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 and the virtual reality church, which is scattered all across the country, the planet.

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 They were meeting together.

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 The virtual reality people were traveling IRL in real life to where the church was in Northern Cal.

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 And they were doing like this physical meetup involving physical and avatar, meta, church members together.

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 And they called it Forever Family.

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 And what an incredible principle.

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 I love this.

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 Let's have a podcast.

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 And so we've literally got like five people from the church in this podcast conversation.

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 But some of the stuff that came out of this, a baptism in virtual reality, getting people, literally sending people on mission into other platforms than where the church is,

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 activating them to be on mission in the metaverse, activating them to be on mission where they live physically,

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 even though it's on the other side of the country.

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 A church in California is getting someone living on mission in Atlanta, Georgia, through a pair of goggles that they bought through, I don't know, Amazon or whatever.

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 Like, this is incredible.

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 The power of a physical church, a small church, two, three hundred people, adapting and utilizing that power to get people on mission in another time zone.

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 Like crazy, crazy stuff.

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 And it's like, OK, how can we have both conversations?

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 And so I got to tell you up front, conversation goes long.

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 You're going to just get it because it's awesome.

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 Had some tech issues.

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 And we've adjusted to a new platform called Riverside.

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 Riverside, I love, except in this conversation.

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 We did have a number of tech issues centered around that.

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 Everybody fails every once in a while.

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 And I've already told Riverside they failed on this one.

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 And so we made it as best as we could.

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 If you're watching on YouTube, some of the video may be janky.

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 Hopefully audio they were able to clean up in such a way.

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 But this is a solid conversation about the power of a physical church that really wants to utilize and capitalize the metaverse space.

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 So here's what we're doing.

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 For this conversation, we are bringing in Pastor Jay Poe, Jason Poling, no stranger to the podcast, as well as, oh, I'm just going to utilize their names on Discord.

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 We're bringing in Goose, Nicole the Angel, Nicole White7, and a guy named Stuart.

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 All those creative names in Stuart.

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 But it's awesome.

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 This is a great podcast.

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 We're bringing in all these people centered around Cornerstone and some of the things that they are doing in physical space, as well as virtual reality.

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 In a conversation that I'm simply calling here, The Multiplying Meta Church.

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 Okay, everybody.

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 Here you go.

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 Hey, Jason, why don't we start off with you, man?

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 Tell us a little bit about who you are and what your story is with Cornerstone.

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 Yeah, so I came to Cornerstone about four years ago.

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 So we're out in Northern California.

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 It's a small little EFCA church, and God's been blessing it.

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 It's been growing.

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 It's been awesome.

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 So, yeah, just came out here, and then we started the, what, almost two years ago now, Nicole, I think.

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 We started probably about two years ago.

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 Yeah.

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 A year and a half.

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 A year and a half.

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 Well, it was April of 2020, so whatever that is.

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 Yeah, a year and a half.

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 Started the church in the metaverse.

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 So that was, yeah, that's how we got started.

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 And it's been amazing, awesome rollercoaster excitement since then.

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 God's been blessing us.

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 And these guys here and the call, this is some of the awesome blessings, you know, that God has bestowed upon us.

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 It's awesome.

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 And evidently, Nicole is your detail person because you don't even know April 2020.

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 And let's be honest, if you know Nicole, she is the detail person here.

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 So, Nicole, you know, tell us a little bit about your story and how you kind of fit in with this.

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 So, I've been attending Cornerstone for a little over four years.

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 And I came on staff in July of 2020, so smack dab in the middle of the pandemic.

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 And it's been a bit of a wild ride since, but I'm still here.

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 Love it.

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 Nobody's stolen her away from Jason quite yet.

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 No, I will turn Godfather on you if anybody tries to take her.

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 It is my favorite thing to threaten to leave and just watch his face go pale and kind of have the heart attack look.

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 Just once a week or so.

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 It brings me joy.

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 We're working a cup of coffee each week.

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 I'll leave unless you bring me coffee.

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 You get something out of the deal other than just like the sheer shock on his face.

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 Awesome.

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 And like Jason said, we've got a ton of guests on the line here.

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 It's supposed to be a lot of fun.

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 Michael, just because you're a friend that I've known here from South Florida, why don't you go next?

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 Yeah, so I'm Michael, used to Venice.

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 Most of the Metaverse knows me as Pastor Goose.

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 And I am the Metaverse pastor at Cornerstone.

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 I entered ministry in 2017 after running my own law firm for about 14 years.

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 Also made video games, a small video game studio.

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 And so when Pastor Jason and I started talking, I met him through a, actually through a conference that Stadia had put on, a lot of things had lined up between the pastoral ministry and again, making video games, the Metaverse.

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 And so, you know, eventually the Lord revealed that the Metaverse was the place that he wanted me.

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 And so I joined Cornerstone in May of this past year and have been loving, has just been loving every minute of it.

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 Since I joined.

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 That's cool.

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 I didn't realize we were the matchmaker between you two.

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 One of the innovation meetups or something.

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 I love that.

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 Did I get a finder's fee?

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 Did I get commission off of the, we totally didn't negotiate that correctly.

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 You're now, yeah, you're the e-harmony of the Metaverse.

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 Man, we got to get with my, Nicole, make a note.

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 I got to get with my contract people too.

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 We got to fix that.

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 Awesome.

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 All over that.

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 Angel, go next here a little bit.

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 Where do you fit into this whole Cornerstone Church thing?

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 Well, my name is Angel.

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 I'm in Atlanta, Georgia.

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 I'm a software engineer and a multidisciplinary designer.

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 So I'm just obsessed with art and code.

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 That's my thing.

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 I found Cornerstone Church stumbling around in alt space over a year ago and never left.

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 And now I'm a small group leader, which is insane, in VR, which is really cool in the Metaverse.

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 And I'm a part of this Forever family.

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 And yeah, they haven't kicked me out yet.

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 So Angel, literally in this equation, I mean, everybody else is physical.

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 And you got Michael, who lives in the other side of the country, who's the Metaverse pastor.

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 But you're literally one of these people that found the church in alt VR, in the Metaverse,

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 and are now attending and active and leading groups in the church.

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 So that's virtual reality.

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 That's fascinating.

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 Stuart, next up.

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 Actually, last up, I think, if the math is right here.

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 Stuart, tell us, where do you fit into this?

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 My name is Stuart Freeman.

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 I live in North Carolina.

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 I've been with Cornerstone for about a year now.

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 I was at my lowest and found Cornerstone.

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 And Jason discipled me through becoming a new believer.

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 And the Lord actually led me to build a church within the VRChat platform.

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 And so I'm the director of the VRChat campus.

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 Wow.

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 Okay, so the majority of the audience has no idea what VRChat is.

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 But I just want to acknowledge up front, wow.

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 Like, I mean, that's the wild, wild west of Metaverse.

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 And so you're going in into some dark areas, my friend, with the gospel when you're doing that.

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 So mad respect right off the top.

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 And there's probably five separate podcasts I want to have with each of you,

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 digging in some conversations down the road, because this is fascinating.

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 But what I really want to focus on here is this idea of why Meta.

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 And then there's some of the challenges.

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 We hear not physical Meta or not Metaphysical, but y'all brought the two together.

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 And just even looking at my little chart here on my screen, there's three, four different states that are involved.

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 You've got Yuba City's in California, Michael's in Florida, Angel, you were in Georgia,

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 and Carolina's on the Stuart side.

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 Like, so that's a broad spread, which is fascinating.

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 And so let's just start with this.

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 Jason, you've been on the podcast several times.

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 We've had John a little bit talking about this.

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 We'll put links in the show notes to go back to those older episodes if you want.

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 Why be the church in the Metaverse?

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 Why even get into this?

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 Now, there's success.

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 I'm literally seeing it on the screen.

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 And so there's a win in this equation.

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 But, you know, you started this thing April 2020, right after COVID.

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 I know you were wrestling with this stuff in 2019.

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 Like, what was the catalyst that really got you started here thinking about this?

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 Yeah, just Matthew 9, just wanting to get out in the harvest field.

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 That's where people are at.

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 A lot of people are not, you know, coming to brick and mortar IRL churches.

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 I'm an IRL pastor as well, and I love it, enjoy it.

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 Thankful for my flock.

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 But we do see people come to Christ.

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 We do see people come through our doors and get baptized.

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 It's been awesome.

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 But in terms of reaching, like, the 90% out there, and we've discovered in our local area for sure, and I'm guessing that applies a lot of places, 90% of the people are not really, you know, churched or walking with Christ.

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 And so we really just wanted to get out there where people were, and they are out in the metaverse.

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 They're out there gaming.

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 They're out there on social chat platforms.

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 They're out there in the virtual reality metaverse worlds.

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 They are out there in droves, and it's increasing, increasing more and more.

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 And, of course, now, you know, the meta Zuckerberg's announcement is just going to keep exploding.

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 And so that is where people are at.

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 That's where they congregate.

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 Those are the new tribes that we're trying to reach.

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 And as we've been doing that, we're realizing people really out there have very little awareness of who Jesus is, of what Christianity even is.

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 There are church people there, but there are a lot, especially in VR chat, there are a lot of people that don't know Christ.

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 So that's why we did it.

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 We just want to go and reach those that are without hope and far from God and need the gospel.

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 That was it.

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 I love that.

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 Zuckerberg's spending so much money on the metaverse right now and the stuff he's talking about with that announcement.

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 You know, the metaverse is going to be a community.

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 It already is a community, and Zuckerberg's investing arguably billions into making sure that meta reinforces that it will continue and it has the tools to be a community.

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 You know, the real challenge is like as a church, do we see it as a community worthy of a church?

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 Because the world is investing and organizations, corporations are investing in it.

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 It's just whether or not churches do.

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 And it's fascinating to me that the challenge that churches are really missing by not connecting with people in the metaverse.

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 And so within this podcast, you know, I see angels shaking your head up and down agreeing.

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 And so it's I really want to investigate a little bit here.

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 Angel Stewart, both of you connected with this church with Cornerstone via virtual reality.

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 Like, and you live literally on the opposite side of the country, three time zones away from where this church is, but you're calling it home.

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 Angel, I would love to maybe just start a little bit with you.

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 Like, were you looking for a church in virtual reality?

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 Were you a church in physical space before?

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 Like, if I can just pry here a little bit.

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 Tell me a little bit about yourself and how you got connected to the church.

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 Well, first, I think I should establish, I think others on the call will agree that the East Coast, our time zone is the correct one.

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 Everyone else is just, you know, in reference to ours.

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 So as long as we put that out there, I'm just kidding.

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 No, I mess with them all the time.

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 I think, you know, the pandemic really was challenging for me.

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 Up until that point, I was trying to really feel locked in and a part of the community of the in-person church that I won't say that I was trying to feel a part of up until that month, that March month in 2020.

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 And, you know, I was just struggling and having this real relationship where I'm being pushed by my brothers and sisters in Christ.

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 And so, again, I just kind of just stumbled in there.

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 I wasn't really looking for it.

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 But I will say this, the church I was going to, the sermons made me feel good, you know, warm and fuzzy driving home from church.

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 And not really better or, like, there was some growth or different, an improvement from what I was dealing with.

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 And when I came into, I just stumbled in, no legs, because in all space you have no legs, just pop in places.

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 And I heard Pastor Jason preaching, his sermons, it's not that they didn't make me feel good.

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 They ended up making me feel better because it led to me really looking at the word and looking at what Jesus said and applying it to my life and feeling that conviction that I needed to really grow.

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 So, long story short, I really feel like I want to be a part of a church that I feel better at and I'm growing.

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 And he knows he's good at pushing.

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 I have a good pressure to grow and become a small group leader amongst other ways I'm able to help.

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 And I'm just, I'm grateful to be used.

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 I love that.

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 What a great testimony of using virtual reality to challenge someone to be better.

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 And so, love that.

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 Stuart, what's your story, man?

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 And how, were you looking for a church in virtual reality?

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 What did it first look like when you connected with them?

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 Surprisingly, a few years ago, I actually saw a YouTube video of someone that was at the VR Church campus that DJ does.

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 And so, I jumped, at my lowest point, I jumped into VRChat and really spent a lot of time there.

00:15:57.780 --> 00:16:03.760
 A lot of people go to VRChat and they're just, they're depressed, they're lonely, they just need somebody to talk to.

00:16:04.800 --> 00:16:06.340
 And I was one of those people.

00:16:07.080 --> 00:16:13.720
 And so, I tried out the VRChat campus that I was talking about that I saw on YouTube, but it didn't really work for me.

00:16:14.360 --> 00:16:18.300
 People would come in and they would crash the whole server and they'd do it multiple times.

00:16:18.500 --> 00:16:24.000
 And they mentioned they had a sister church called Cornerstone and, you know, that people could go and try it out.

00:16:24.480 --> 00:16:27.560
 And so, I downloaded AltSpace and haven't looked back since.

00:16:27.940 --> 00:16:28.320
 That's awesome.

00:16:28.440 --> 00:16:29.700
 And how long ago was that, Stuart?

00:16:29.800 --> 00:16:32.080
 How long have you been in this space?

00:16:32.220 --> 00:16:32.720
 About a year.

00:16:33.120 --> 00:16:36.660
 I actually got baptized through Cornerstone November of last year.

00:16:37.080 --> 00:16:37.480
 Awesome.

00:16:37.900 --> 00:16:38.200
 Okay.

00:16:38.320 --> 00:16:39.780
 So, let's have that conversation.

00:16:39.880 --> 00:16:40.740
 In virtual reality.

00:16:40.920 --> 00:16:42.760
 I was about to say, virtual reality.

00:16:42.760 --> 00:16:52.200
 And so, now, any hate mail for the following conversation, please send it to djsoto at vrchurch.org.

00:16:52.440 --> 00:16:52.720
 Okay.

00:16:52.960 --> 00:16:56.480
 So, now that that's out of the way, Stuart, talk to me.

00:16:56.840 --> 00:16:58.580
 What is virtual reality baptism?

00:16:58.700 --> 00:16:59.860
 What does that even mean?

00:17:00.080 --> 00:17:00.960
 What does that look like?

00:17:01.400 --> 00:17:02.200
 It's powerful.

00:17:04.500 --> 00:17:07.860
 It's, it was ready for me to take that step.

00:17:08.000 --> 00:17:08.980
 I was ready for that.

00:17:09.480 --> 00:17:12.980
 Jason made it clear that that was sort of the next step I needed to take to get the ball rolling.

00:17:13.840 --> 00:17:22.400
 And it's just going under a pool, submersing yourself in the water symbolically, and just weep.

00:17:23.040 --> 00:17:28.400
 Was now, like, was that done in a church setting, in virtual reality?

00:17:28.400 --> 00:17:30.280
 Were people there that were witnessing?

00:17:30.640 --> 00:17:34.880
 Like, talk to me a little bit maybe about what that day, what that experience looked like.

00:17:34.980 --> 00:17:37.860
 What in virtual reality, I'm assuming, in all VR.

00:17:38.320 --> 00:17:40.520
 So, describe it a little bit for me, if you don't mind.

00:17:40.620 --> 00:17:40.760
 Yeah.

00:17:41.320 --> 00:17:46.640
 We actually had a sermon, and then we went sort of in the back, and there was a little pool that they had set up.

00:17:47.220 --> 00:17:52.720
 And everybody sort of gathered around, and they recorded it, and they read off my testimony.

00:17:54.020 --> 00:17:55.000
 And then, yeah.

00:17:55.060 --> 00:17:55.580
 Very cool.

00:17:55.780 --> 00:17:56.140
 It was awesome.

00:17:56.140 --> 00:18:01.160
 And so, like, you as a person, I'm looking at your physical representation.

00:18:01.440 --> 00:18:03.060
 I don't get, like, all meta here.

00:18:03.320 --> 00:18:09.020
 But, like, you consider yourself baptized when you went through the VR baptism.

00:18:09.060 --> 00:18:09.440
 I do.

00:18:10.240 --> 00:18:18.500
 I still have plans to be baptized in my IRL church, and we do push for that, to also be baptized in the IRL church.

00:18:18.700 --> 00:18:19.700
 But it was, yeah.

00:18:20.540 --> 00:18:21.340
 It was amazing.

00:18:21.940 --> 00:18:22.400
 Very cool.

00:18:22.500 --> 00:18:25.020
 Who did the baptism?

00:18:25.280 --> 00:18:26.580
 Who was the baptizer in this?

00:18:26.640 --> 00:18:27.060
 Jason did.

00:18:27.560 --> 00:18:27.920
 Jason.

00:18:28.360 --> 00:18:28.700
 Awesome.

00:18:29.420 --> 00:18:29.840
 How many?

00:18:29.920 --> 00:18:31.460
 I totally don't want to get stuck here.

00:18:31.500 --> 00:18:32.340
 I'm just totally curious.

00:18:32.460 --> 00:18:35.480
 How many baptisms have you guys done in virtual reality?

00:18:35.480 --> 00:18:39.200
 In VR, probably 10, 12, 15.

00:18:39.380 --> 00:18:39.660
 I don't know.

00:18:39.980 --> 00:18:40.700
 10 to 12.

00:18:41.340 --> 00:18:41.600
 Yeah.

00:18:41.700 --> 00:18:42.200
 Somewhere in there.

00:18:42.360 --> 00:18:42.500
 Yeah.

00:18:43.040 --> 00:18:44.960
 Nicole, the detail person, saves the day.

00:18:45.060 --> 00:18:45.680
 Thank you for that.

00:18:46.380 --> 00:18:50.780
 Jason, you know, he's not Southern Baptist, so the answer wasn't 67.

00:18:51.280 --> 00:18:51.680
 100.

00:18:51.860 --> 00:18:52.400
 Yeah, exactly.

00:18:52.840 --> 00:18:54.060
 Get as high as possible.

00:18:54.540 --> 00:18:54.800
 Awesome.

00:18:55.820 --> 00:18:58.680
 Hey, Michael, like, so you signed on.

00:18:58.780 --> 00:19:00.060
 You were a lawyer.

00:19:01.280 --> 00:19:03.280
 You know, I knew you down here in South Florida.

00:19:03.520 --> 00:19:11.700
 You were a COO or like an operations type of guy or, you know, a business guy with the church previous.

00:19:11.800 --> 00:19:14.280
 And now you're pastor of Meta.

00:19:14.280 --> 00:19:17.980
 What does it mean even to, like, pastor people?

00:19:18.780 --> 00:19:21.780
 I mean, even Meta is a controversial enough word.

00:19:21.920 --> 00:19:25.340
 And now you may be the only guy on the planet that's pastor of Meta.

00:19:25.420 --> 00:19:27.880
 I don't know that there's a lot of others out there.

00:19:28.160 --> 00:19:33.740
 Like, what does that look like, pastoring people like Stuart, like Angel in the Metaverse?

00:19:34.080 --> 00:19:34.880
 It's incredible.

00:19:35.280 --> 00:19:52.700
 Yeah, and, you know, I mean, maybe I'm the one with the title, but there's a lot of us and really a lot of that have already been there well before me have been doing it just because, as Jason said, just because the people are there, there are souls and we need to be there.

00:19:52.700 --> 00:19:59.740
 And so title or not, there's been, there's quite a few people actually doing the, having the pastor's heart for the people in the Metaverse, which is awesome.

00:20:01.740 --> 00:20:09.200
 Yeah, going from operations to pastoring the people, it's been incredible.

00:20:09.360 --> 00:20:18.920
 I mean, that's where my heart always, always was, and which is another reason why it was just such a natural fit for Cornerstone when I learned what the expectation was.

00:20:19.000 --> 00:20:20.820
 I was just like, yeah, let's go, send me.

00:20:22.760 --> 00:20:31.420
 Seeing and interacting and pastoring, Steward and Angel and so many other people, it's interesting.

00:20:32.280 --> 00:20:40.640
 And there's some of what, you know, I mean, I've got my MDiv, I got all the, I got all the, I know what all the books say about all this kind of stuff.

00:20:40.720 --> 00:20:44.540
 But then, as we know, the books only get you so far.

00:20:44.680 --> 00:20:46.700
 And then there's also no books for some of this.

00:20:46.960 --> 00:20:49.600
 There's never been any books written on quite a bit of this.

00:20:49.760 --> 00:20:57.580
 And so, you know, how to, how to manage people who, it's very much flipped.

00:20:57.780 --> 00:20:59.240
 I mean, this is the way that I would explain it.

00:20:59.300 --> 00:21:03.120
 It's very much flipped in terms of what people are willing to discuss with you.

00:21:03.480 --> 00:21:12.500
 So if you're at an IRL church in the lobby and you're asking someone how they're, you know, how they're doing or what, if you just meet somebody, they're willing to tell you all of their basic information.

00:21:12.920 --> 00:21:16.540
 But very rarely are you going to get what's really going on in the surface.

00:21:18.420 --> 00:21:20.980
 In the metaverse, it is exactly flipped.

00:21:21.300 --> 00:21:30.160
 I have met countless number of men and women who refuse to tell me their real name, where they live, what country they live in.

00:21:31.020 --> 00:21:36.620
 But within minutes, they will tell me every piece of their deepest, darkest secrets.

00:21:36.820 --> 00:21:46.220
 I mean, there are many times I have people say, I have only told a few people in my life this, but, and then they just tell me all this stuff and looking for someone to talk to.

00:21:46.780 --> 00:21:55.340
 And so that aspect of it is absolutely amazing because it's access to people that is unprecedented in such a short amount of time.

00:21:55.720 --> 00:22:07.100
 The challenge, of course, is trying to maintain the relationships, trying to build the relationships so that you can go further and, like, actually engage in true discipleship.

00:22:07.220 --> 00:22:23.320
 So that's been, on the one hand, it's great to be able to make such rapid progress to a point, but there is this wall that we're, like, trying to punch through to get people to really kind of, like, engage on a deeper level, on a more consistent level.

00:22:23.640 --> 00:22:24.460
 That's powerful.

00:22:25.100 --> 00:22:31.600
 What is it like, and I'll just open this up for anybody, really, because, Michael, you're starting to pull the thread.

00:22:31.880 --> 00:22:33.520
 You know, people are far more transparent.

00:22:34.160 --> 00:22:47.320
 I haven't told anybody this, but because you're on the other side of the planet and you're not sitting next to me, I feel that I can share stuff with you because this is a safe environment, which is funny because virtual reality feels safe.

00:22:47.440 --> 00:22:50.140
 Digital feels safe, more safe than IRL.

00:22:51.360 --> 00:22:55.640
 What does relationships look like within the church?

00:22:56.120 --> 00:23:02.020
 Angel, you walk into some place, you bounce into some place, you hover into some place for the first time.

00:23:02.800 --> 00:23:06.480
 Like, how difficult was it for you to connect, Stuart?

00:23:06.640 --> 00:23:11.300
 How long did it take for you to feel comfortable enough because you were recommended from another church?

00:23:11.380 --> 00:23:13.540
 You didn't even know anybody in the space.

00:23:13.720 --> 00:23:15.280
 And so what were these?

00:23:15.400 --> 00:23:16.420
 Was the church welcoming?

00:23:16.640 --> 00:23:17.760
 Was it a solid experience?

00:23:17.760 --> 00:23:24.140
 Did you have to be patient, like a physical church, IRL, where you have to go several times before you can really connect?

00:23:24.780 --> 00:23:29.200
 And even beyond that, what do these relationships look like in the metaverse?

00:23:29.420 --> 00:23:30.720
 Is this real?

00:23:30.840 --> 00:23:31.620
 Is this lasting?

00:23:32.300 --> 00:23:36.580
 Give me a little bit here on the relationships of Cornerstone VR.

00:23:36.940 --> 00:23:42.860
 I think the way the platform's set up where, first and foremost, you get to set your appearance as you want.

00:23:43.220 --> 00:23:46.700
 So some people to this day are still green to me.

00:23:46.760 --> 00:23:49.000
 I don't know what they look like.

00:23:49.080 --> 00:23:53.880
 And I don't need to, you know, because I know that's my friend.

00:23:54.360 --> 00:23:55.600
 And I pray with them.

00:23:55.600 --> 00:24:02.400
 And I know God knows about, you know, you know, Bender, whatever his username is.

00:24:02.500 --> 00:24:03.400
 And he knows who that is.

00:24:03.400 --> 00:24:05.900
 I believe God has an Altspace account.

00:24:06.320 --> 00:24:07.820
 He has access to all that.

00:24:07.860 --> 00:24:08.500
 So he knows.

00:24:08.540 --> 00:24:09.180
 He knows all that.

00:24:09.740 --> 00:24:16.180
 But I think one of the coolest things about it is just how organic it is, us coming together like this.

00:24:16.240 --> 00:24:22.280
 Because an IRL, I just graduated college not too long ago, so I was trying to find an IRL church.

00:24:22.440 --> 00:24:26.820
 And there's this kind of, like, strong feeling to go to a church for people like you.

00:24:27.120 --> 00:24:30.620
 These people go to this church and have this denomination and do this and that.

00:24:30.920 --> 00:24:37.580
 And what I like about Altspace is that anybody, literally, you'll hear different accents reading the word of God.

00:24:37.580 --> 00:24:44.060
 That is so emotional for me, like, hearing people from all over the world, young and old, male or female, reading scripture together.

00:24:44.260 --> 00:24:46.500
 So I just love how organic it is.

00:24:46.560 --> 00:24:48.700
 It's no kind of forced diversity or anything.

00:24:48.800 --> 00:24:53.240
 It's just this natural, like, Jesus is the common denominator, what brings people together.

00:24:53.320 --> 00:25:00.500
 And when we come together like that, we'll find we're a lot more alike when we start sharing our experiences, especially, like, in my small group.

00:25:00.500 --> 00:25:13.160
 It's been a blessing and an honor to be a part of getting to hear people literally in Scotland, right, saying things and having experiences that, like, are like mine.

00:25:13.260 --> 00:25:21.080
 Not that I was the only person, you know, because 1 Peter 5 tells us, you know, that we're family believers all over the world dealing with the same kind of struggles.

00:25:21.080 --> 00:25:22.640
 But the interview is telling me otherwise.

00:25:22.820 --> 00:25:42.840
 So anyways, I feel like when I come into these spaces and I'm able to come to my pastors with what's going on and having Nicole just pray with me after a service, I just think that because it's so spiritual and it's about Jesus, you're able just to, like, really let go in a way that I haven't yet really found an IRL to match.

00:25:44.080 --> 00:25:46.020
 So that's just my personal experience.

00:25:46.580 --> 00:25:47.540
 Stuart, how about you?

00:25:47.620 --> 00:25:49.260
 What would have been some of your experiences with it?

00:25:49.620 --> 00:25:54.720
 You mentioned, you know, how long it could take to sort of get that relationship kind of thing.

00:25:54.860 --> 00:26:01.980
 When it comes to relationship with a church, it does take time to feel as though it's a church home.

00:26:02.400 --> 00:26:18.400
 Something we've really found out, and even my own personal experience, is when you're in that dark stage and you try and seek out a church in the metaverse for someone to talk to, you're just so ready.

00:26:19.200 --> 00:26:22.360
 And you're so desperate for that talking.

00:26:22.860 --> 00:26:39.600
 So we've actually found out that we do Q&A at the end of the sermons that we do, and we found that that really helps a lot because people desperately need someone to sort of show them where there's hope because they don't have it anymore.

00:26:40.160 --> 00:26:51.560
 Jason, as you're pastoring, you know, this group, and Michael as well here in a little bit, like, is pastoring somebody different in the metaverse?

00:26:51.780 --> 00:26:52.700
 Is it different?

00:26:53.000 --> 00:26:55.240
 Like, is pastoring people in the metaverse different?

00:26:55.460 --> 00:26:57.740
 Are you doing things in a different way?

00:26:57.840 --> 00:27:01.640
 Are you sensing or feeling it's harder to connect with someone?

00:27:01.760 --> 00:27:03.760
 Is it easier to connect with someone?

00:27:03.920 --> 00:27:06.240
 Like, give me an apples to oranges comparison here.

00:27:06.320 --> 00:27:10.100
 Yeah, you know, it's funny because last night I was doing, we do this biblical counseling training.

00:27:10.220 --> 00:27:14.980
 We've got about 20-some people that every Tuesday night we're training them on how to help people, soul care stuff.

00:27:15.480 --> 00:27:21.320
 And somebody asked that, like, doing counseling in, so I've done counseling in the metaverse as well as IRL.

00:27:21.940 --> 00:27:22.900
 And they're like, is it harder?

00:27:23.040 --> 00:27:24.700
 I mean, is it easier, better, whatever?

00:27:24.800 --> 00:27:25.900
 So they asked a similar question.

00:27:26.280 --> 00:27:29.620
 And I was like, had to think about it because I haven't really noticed that much of a difference.

00:27:29.620 --> 00:27:34.900
 And they said, if you're, so if I'm on Zoom or Discord or if I can see them, so that's helpful.

00:27:34.940 --> 00:27:37.600
 But they said, what about when you're counseling in VR?

00:27:37.880 --> 00:27:38.940
 You can't see them.

00:27:39.020 --> 00:27:40.640
 You can't see their facial expressions as much.

00:27:41.420 --> 00:27:42.820
 And I was like, really?

00:27:42.900 --> 00:27:46.060
 I don't know how the Spirit of God does it, but somehow there's this deep connection.

00:27:46.700 --> 00:27:53.100
 And yes, if they have their headset on, there's movement with their hands, and you can see some of that nonverbal expression.

00:27:54.460 --> 00:28:02.720
 But, you know, I would imagine, like, can a blind person in IRL give counsel to another person without seeing nonverbals?

00:28:02.780 --> 00:28:03.100
 Absolutely.

00:28:03.740 --> 00:28:11.760
 And so I think you might say, oh, there's a deficiency there in being able to really pastor or connect or counsel people that you can't see.

00:28:12.300 --> 00:28:13.420
 But there's really not.

00:28:13.480 --> 00:28:15.220
 There's something deeply, it's the Spirit of God.

00:28:15.300 --> 00:28:16.380
 There's something connects you.

00:28:16.540 --> 00:28:20.960
 And I find myself very bonded to people that I can't even see.

00:28:21.260 --> 00:28:23.340
 I just, you can hear the, and you can hear the voice.

00:28:23.460 --> 00:28:24.420
 I mean, that's critical, right?

00:28:24.800 --> 00:28:25.260
 The tone.

00:28:25.360 --> 00:28:25.920
 But you know what?

00:28:25.960 --> 00:28:27.420
 As I say that, I'm verbally processing.

00:28:27.560 --> 00:28:34.100
 Even on Discord, which is a real famous chat app that we use quite heavily for connecting people, a lot of it is text-driven.

00:28:34.480 --> 00:28:43.740
 And actually, there's a lot of times where there's a depth, a robust connection that's forged even through typing things out to each other about the depths of their heart.

00:28:44.200 --> 00:28:46.880
 So, yeah, I mean, it's just a matter of perspective, I guess.

00:28:46.920 --> 00:28:47.960
 Some people are like, oh, I can't do that.

00:28:47.980 --> 00:28:49.860
 I can't really connect with somebody through text.

00:28:50.040 --> 00:28:51.820
 I can't connect somebody if I can't see them.

00:28:52.720 --> 00:28:53.620
 Not my experience.

00:28:53.620 --> 00:28:58.540
 I feel like I've connected just as deeply with my brothers and sisters in the metaverse as I have in IRL.

00:28:59.180 --> 00:29:00.500
 So I don't know how to explain.

00:29:00.600 --> 00:29:02.180
 Maybe Michael's a lot smarter than I.

00:29:02.220 --> 00:29:05.500
 He's probably got a better philosophical version of why that is.

00:29:05.580 --> 00:29:07.440
 But somehow the Spirit of God works in that way.

00:29:07.940 --> 00:29:08.620
 Michael, what do you think?

00:29:08.960 --> 00:29:12.160
 Yeah, I think there are differences.

00:29:13.860 --> 00:29:19.500
 Some could be seen and in some moments maybe weaker than being IRL.

00:29:20.660 --> 00:29:23.240
 In other ways, there are strengths.

00:29:23.600 --> 00:29:29.360
 Just as I said, just flat out getting people to open up quicker is a strength.

00:29:29.360 --> 00:29:42.260
 And so I think what we're going to end up finding is that we will have a better idea as we go through this and do it and learn and see what works and see what doesn't work.

00:29:42.700 --> 00:29:53.020
 I think we're going to develop really good insight into when someone should be transitioned to IRL for whatever it may be.

00:29:53.840 --> 00:30:02.920
 And then I actually think that there's going to be times when we have IRL people that we may say, listen, this is going to go far smoother if we just pop headsets on.

00:30:03.420 --> 00:30:07.040
 Even though we could be IRL, there are reasons why.

00:30:07.120 --> 00:30:16.920
 I mean, I just once all of this plays out and we see what works and what doesn't, the strengths and the weaknesses, I think people are going to be surprised.

00:30:17.360 --> 00:30:24.800
 And for the for the critics who haven't been in it, once they see it, it just changes everything.

00:30:25.020 --> 00:30:27.240
 I've seen that more than a few times.

00:30:28.420 --> 00:30:34.480
 And, you know, the whole idea is pressing into some some like deeply held traditions.

00:30:35.200 --> 00:30:42.180
 But I think when those traditions get pressed into, I think we may find out they're actually idols and not actually worth holding on to.

00:30:42.820 --> 00:30:43.400
 Preach it.

00:30:44.020 --> 00:30:44.600
 You're right.

00:30:44.660 --> 00:30:45.880
 He is smarter than the rest of us.

00:30:45.920 --> 00:30:46.280
 He is.

00:30:46.540 --> 00:30:47.660
 He's a smart cat.

00:30:48.020 --> 00:30:49.880
 We're talking about a gray space here.

00:30:50.060 --> 00:30:54.220
 And it's funny, like even even myself, I try to I live in a world of labels.

00:30:54.700 --> 00:30:58.540
 You know, we say digital church because that's where physical and digital come together.

00:30:58.540 --> 00:31:01.040
 And so physical church, understanding digital ministry.

00:31:01.380 --> 00:31:10.100
 We talk about digital only church plants, you know, and that's Angela Craig Pursue Church Live at some level, even what DJ Soto is doing in the metaverse.

00:31:10.200 --> 00:31:12.400
 That's this digital only expression.

00:31:12.900 --> 00:31:16.460
 Michael, you're talking about bringing somebody from meta into IRL.

00:31:16.980 --> 00:31:23.260
 Stuart's talking about being baptized in meta, but also the importance of being baptized IRL as well.

00:31:23.260 --> 00:31:28.700
 And it's I'm confused because we're working so hard to categorize people separately.

00:31:28.960 --> 00:31:36.880
 But what Cornerstone's doing is really finding this like blended gray area where it lives together.

00:31:37.880 --> 00:31:41.520
 Is it is it and I'm legitimately asking this question.

00:31:41.680 --> 00:31:51.920
 Is it important to to keep meta meta and IRL IRL or why have you guys worked so hard as an organization to try to bring those two together?

00:31:52.040 --> 00:31:56.700
 I feel like it's important that it stays like we blend it.

00:31:56.820 --> 00:32:04.840
 People aren't labels and categories and people in real life have the same struggles as people in VR.

00:32:05.080 --> 00:32:13.000
 And when they can come together and counsel each other and counsel each other and be friends with each other, even though we're on opposite sides of the country.

00:32:14.940 --> 00:32:15.840
 It's powerful.

00:32:16.140 --> 00:32:22.060
 It gets you out of your little bubble, your little Christian culture where you are.

00:32:22.200 --> 00:32:31.180
 And it helps you like like Angel is talking about see people in Scotland and the UK and we've had people in China and even areas of Africa and stuff.

00:32:31.180 --> 00:32:39.000
 Come in and and share like their journey and how similar it is also how different it is.

00:32:39.180 --> 00:32:47.640
 But there's a lot of connections and you can see how the family of God is worldwide.

00:32:48.080 --> 00:32:53.100
 It's not just our local churches and it's not just our spot in the metaverse either.

00:32:53.340 --> 00:33:00.760
 It's everywhere and we can connect just as well physically in real life, digitally.

00:33:01.120 --> 00:33:03.480
 And when you put it together, I think it's even more powerful.

00:33:04.340 --> 00:33:07.060
 Talk to me a little bit here about you got everybody together.

00:33:07.460 --> 00:33:16.500
 What, why, you know, what, what was that like getting the, the, the physical, the, the, the virtual, what were some of those experiences like coming together physically?

00:33:16.820 --> 00:33:17.540
 I liked it.

00:33:17.620 --> 00:33:23.440
 I mean, to be honest, I had never been outside of the East Coast, really like the Southeast of our country.

00:33:23.680 --> 00:33:28.640
 So going all the way to the West Coast and California just seems a little crazy right now.

00:33:28.680 --> 00:33:29.600
 I'm just being honest with you.

00:33:30.700 --> 00:33:33.260
 I was like, I'm about to go over here right now.

00:33:33.260 --> 00:33:44.860
 So when I say it, and I still consider it this way to be like a second home, the way that Pastor Todd and his family, and they just got their new home, opened up to me.

00:33:45.100 --> 00:33:47.540
 I in no way felt like an outsider.

00:33:48.720 --> 00:33:55.200
 There's this twofold where it's like some people like see me really like as a brave person to go and make that trip by myself.

00:33:55.260 --> 00:33:56.540
 I never flown by myself.

00:33:56.700 --> 00:34:03.120
 That was like my second time on a plane in my life to go to the other side of the country and meet these people that I met in VR, right?

00:34:03.220 --> 00:34:08.340
 And then for them to be so open and welcoming to me, it really is one church.

00:34:08.420 --> 00:34:11.220
 It's multiple campuses and one church.

00:34:11.640 --> 00:34:15.640
 And I really love how, you know, I was able to talk about the sermons with some people.

00:34:15.820 --> 00:34:23.400
 We did seven weeks of small group leadership training, and they brought a GoPro to like a person who volunteers house each week.

00:34:23.520 --> 00:34:26.080
 And the people in that class were not in VR.

00:34:26.520 --> 00:34:33.260
 So I got to bond for like seven weeks with people who strictly like live in Yuba City and only go to the in-person church.

00:34:33.460 --> 00:34:40.300
 So when I came in person, it was like, hey, and I never met them in VR or anything just through the Discord class.

00:34:41.000 --> 00:34:49.460
 And I mean, I already knew people's mannerisms and, you know, people didn't realize how short I am, but people are not ready for that.

00:34:49.780 --> 00:34:53.180
 But it was just really like warm and accepting.

00:34:53.320 --> 00:34:54.680
 And my parents are a really big girl.

00:34:54.860 --> 00:34:56.780
 Like they're like, you about to go over here.

00:34:56.840 --> 00:34:57.200
 Let me see.

00:34:57.300 --> 00:35:00.120
 So my mom, it scares me that she even has a Twitch account.

00:35:00.620 --> 00:35:03.800
 She gets on the Twitch and she watches Pastor Jason.

00:35:03.980 --> 00:35:06.040
 And hopefully next year, I don't know how we're going to do it.

00:35:06.060 --> 00:35:06.660
 We're going to do it.

00:35:06.840 --> 00:35:08.540
 I would love to bring my mom as well.

00:35:08.740 --> 00:35:13.880
 So the whole family, you're going to get more people coming from Atlanta, I guarantee.

00:35:14.380 --> 00:35:16.220
 But they just made me feel really welcome.

00:35:16.480 --> 00:35:18.540
 And, you know, you know, it can only be God.

00:35:19.620 --> 00:35:23.500
 I had already been out to Yuba City before that.

00:35:23.860 --> 00:35:26.700
 And so I had come out in June to preach.

00:35:27.220 --> 00:35:31.800
 And I was unprepared for that, for the reception that I received.

00:35:32.780 --> 00:35:37.960
 The people of Cornerstone, when you say family, they mean it.

00:35:37.960 --> 00:35:43.960
 Like I showed up and it felt like I was seeing family that I hadn't seen in a long time, like just universally.

00:35:44.960 --> 00:35:54.700
 And so when we started planning this and people started saying, yeah, that we're coming, I was just so excited for them because I knew what they were going to be experiencing.

00:35:54.700 --> 00:35:56.860
 And it was just it was just going to be perfect.

00:35:56.860 --> 00:36:05.800
 It was just going to be exactly the thing that would that would like put the exclamation point on what we talk about, which is we are a family.

00:36:05.800 --> 00:36:12.400
 If you're in VR, if you're in Atlanta or North Carolina or Wales or wherever, you are part of the family.

00:36:12.400 --> 00:36:13.380
 And we care for you.

00:36:13.420 --> 00:36:14.040
 We love you.

00:36:14.100 --> 00:36:15.500
 Like we say that and we mean it.

00:36:15.900 --> 00:36:18.840
 And the people of Cornerstone Church say it and they mean it.

00:36:19.020 --> 00:36:21.140
 And so everybody's showing up.

00:36:21.260 --> 00:36:23.220
 I mean, it was it really was awesome.

00:36:23.220 --> 00:36:31.000
 And then also just getting to spend time with people that I spend so much time with online.

00:36:32.260 --> 00:36:38.580
 And I mean, you know, like Angel and one of our one of our people from Wales designed that shirt.

00:36:38.820 --> 00:36:48.020
 Like she put her time and creative effort along with our friend Rob into creating that amazing shirt, which which I kind of like started.

00:36:48.340 --> 00:36:51.380
 And then and then she was like, OK, you go away now.

00:36:51.440 --> 00:36:52.540
 We're going to come back with something.

00:36:52.760 --> 00:36:54.440
 And it was like, which is perfect.

00:36:54.440 --> 00:36:56.480
 Like those are the kind of people that we have.

00:36:56.620 --> 00:37:01.500
 Like Stuart is the same way with VR chat where I am like always like trying to get in there meddling.

00:37:01.500 --> 00:37:02.560
 And he's like, I got it.

00:37:02.560 --> 00:37:03.900
 Like or he doesn't know something.

00:37:03.960 --> 00:37:04.500
 I'm like, I can help.

00:37:04.520 --> 00:37:05.180
 He's like, I got it.

00:37:05.200 --> 00:37:06.080
 And he comes back to it.

00:37:06.120 --> 00:37:09.680
 So we have such driven, motivated people that are that care.

00:37:10.240 --> 00:37:16.700
 And so getting everybody together in person and having that synergy, it was it was awesome.

00:37:16.940 --> 00:37:20.920
 Like I just it was it was super important to have that in focus.

00:37:21.140 --> 00:37:23.560
 And and yeah, it was just it was great.

00:37:23.800 --> 00:37:32.840
 And the shared trials that you experience when you go to San Francisco and you're stranded on the side of the road and with no buses that were supposed to be there for two hours.

00:37:33.340 --> 00:37:53.940
 You know, together, you bond together in those kinds of very hard hardship moments, which culminate, which culminated in a drive back from San Francisco with me in the driver's seat, Stuart in the passenger seat with the two of us just dreaming all of what we're about to do in VR chat with with Jason sleeping in the back.

00:37:54.080 --> 00:37:58.780
 Hey, so let me let me pull that thread because because I was not prepared for this part of the conversation.

00:37:58.780 --> 00:38:04.560
 But what I'm understanding, Stuart, you had had a dream for wanting to do something in VR chat.

00:38:05.000 --> 00:38:10.220
 Michael, to your own admission, you don't necessarily understand VR chat as well as maybe some of the other platforms.

00:38:11.020 --> 00:38:16.060
 And so you're empowering Stuart to really get into VR chat.

00:38:16.680 --> 00:38:19.000
 Am I reading the situation right right now?

00:38:19.340 --> 00:38:20.080
 It's a little slippery.

00:38:20.180 --> 00:38:25.620
 The metaverse is a little slippery between church planning and missions because it's like 100 percent both.

00:38:25.720 --> 00:38:26.440
 It's not half and half.

00:38:26.480 --> 00:38:27.680
 It's just like 100 percent both.

00:38:27.780 --> 00:38:29.400
 And that's a whole other conversation.

00:38:29.400 --> 00:38:47.040
 But if you're thinking about missions and going to a place and bringing the gospel with the hopes of raising up natives to be the ones who really own it and then bring the gospel to others, Stuart is the native.

00:38:47.280 --> 00:38:49.500
 I mean, Stuart knows VR chat intimately.

00:38:50.120 --> 00:38:55.060
 And all of the all the time, Jason and I are in there and we're thinking one thing.

00:38:55.060 --> 00:38:58.320
 And Stuart's like, that's not going to work because he knows it.

00:38:58.320 --> 00:39:05.260
 And so and he and so then, yeah, basically, we've gotten to the point where we're like, look, what do we do?

00:39:05.580 --> 00:39:12.400
 And and he he's an amazing voice in helping us see what what the people of VR chat are seeing.

00:39:12.860 --> 00:39:27.840
 And so I feel absolutely blessed to be I mean, we consider ourselves literally on the tip of the spear with VR chat as far as ministry goes, because we've got and we've got a native who can explain to us what.

00:39:28.320 --> 00:39:31.540
 We should be doing and it's super exciting.

00:39:32.040 --> 00:39:38.100
 That is this is an incredible like moment, I would say, you know, and then once again, I wasn't expecting this.

00:39:38.260 --> 00:39:44.320
 And an audience, if you don't know VR chat, it's the it's the wild, wild west of the VR platforms.

00:39:44.320 --> 00:39:47.620
 And so it's it's open. It's it's crazy there.

00:39:47.700 --> 00:39:53.420
 There's not as much parental guidelines and protections and things like that within the platform.

00:39:53.420 --> 00:39:58.960
 And so if you're if you're going into that environment, you know, I mean, you're going to see stuff.

00:39:59.040 --> 00:40:01.420
 It's going to be weird. It's going to be crazy.

00:40:01.420 --> 00:40:09.320
 And and so I know like some of the churches in that space, they're not wanting to go in there because they're afraid of what's in there.

00:40:09.420 --> 00:40:23.860
 And so Stuart, you know, knowing that environment and being being comfortable with it, wanting to be the missionary, digital missionary, the meta missionary in the situation, even to the point of establishing what the church should be.

00:40:24.260 --> 00:40:36.020
 Like, first off, that's an awesome call. And so Stuart, once again, I wasn't expecting this conversation, but knowing what I do, like, I really salute you right now for for wanting to be the light of Jesus in that platform.

00:40:36.260 --> 00:40:44.580
 And at the same time, holy crap, Cornerstone, you guys are willing to let Stuart go into this environment and you're empowering him.

00:40:44.840 --> 00:40:49.340
 And what I love, Michael, with what you just said is we're not telling the dude what to do.

00:40:49.400 --> 00:40:50.940
 As a matter of fact, we're listening to him.

00:40:51.120 --> 00:40:55.580
 And when when we tell Stuart what we think is going to work, Stuart's like, no, that's the completely wrong approach.

00:40:55.680 --> 00:41:02.300
 And instead of telling Stuart, you're wrong, you're actually like listening to him and willing to let him give a shot into it.

00:41:02.520 --> 00:41:07.520
 Like so the number of rules that you just broke in physical church environments is probably 47.

00:41:08.040 --> 00:41:13.620
 Like churches don't do that in physical space, but it's it's it's just remarkable to me.

00:41:14.040 --> 00:41:19.480
 You know, up front, I want to call this out like your multiplication strategy is strong within virtual reality.

00:41:19.480 --> 00:41:22.160
 And we're seeing it I'm seeing in two different situations.

00:41:22.160 --> 00:41:23.280
 The second I'll explore in a second.

00:41:23.700 --> 00:41:28.960
 One, you've got Stuart, who's like, hey, I'm really passionate about this platform in this area.

00:41:29.080 --> 00:41:31.740
 And you as a church are perfectly fine.

00:41:32.220 --> 00:41:34.880
 You know, Stuart, I'm hoping they're speaking into your life spiritually.

00:41:34.880 --> 00:41:45.720
 I'm hoping they're discipling and girding you with the strength that you need to go into this platform and really be the light of the world within the equivalent of the wild, wild west of the virtual reality platforms.

00:41:45.720 --> 00:41:50.080
 So first off, if they're doing that, more power to them.

00:41:50.140 --> 00:41:50.800
 Stuart, what are you thinking?

00:41:51.660 --> 00:41:52.140
 Absolutely.

00:41:52.960 --> 00:41:59.860
 But the way that God sort of laid that out, the groundwork was there before the idea was even present.

00:42:00.580 --> 00:42:05.160
 It was definitely a God driven plan for this all to happen.

00:42:05.440 --> 00:42:07.420
 And he's just made the footwork.

00:42:07.700 --> 00:42:11.600
 So I'm beyond grateful that he's using me as a vessel for it.

00:42:12.300 --> 00:42:13.880
 I think it's been the highlight of my ministry.

00:42:14.180 --> 00:42:15.000
 Well, there's been so many highlights.

00:42:15.300 --> 00:42:18.020
 So, you know, but this has been so awesome.

00:42:18.300 --> 00:42:19.740
 I can't even describe to you in words.

00:42:20.180 --> 00:42:22.620
 Guy from the outside in a completely separate time zone.

00:42:22.880 --> 00:42:25.080
 Yeah, that this is a remarkable moment.

00:42:25.620 --> 00:42:28.080
 And I'm going to, Stuart, I'm going to be praying for you.

00:42:28.200 --> 00:42:29.440
 I want to see how things progress.

00:42:30.220 --> 00:42:31.820
 And I'm going to be cheering you on.

00:42:31.920 --> 00:42:33.600
 I don't do VR chat.

00:42:33.960 --> 00:42:37.140
 That being said, I love the fact that you are and heading into that.

00:42:37.640 --> 00:42:42.040
 The other thing that is remarkable to me, and I want to pull this thread a little bit.

00:42:42.460 --> 00:42:49.780
 Angel, you made the comment that you're going to bring a whole bunch of Atlanta people to the next whatever, forever family thing.

00:42:50.900 --> 00:42:58.400
 So, what that tells me is that your experience in the metaverse is infecting who you are in real life, because I'm assuming you live in Atlanta.

00:42:59.760 --> 00:43:05.380
 I would love to understand that a little bit, because, like, VR is meta, physical is physical.

00:43:05.660 --> 00:43:13.900
 They don't interact, but you're telling me that you want to get people excited about the stuff that you're learning and doing in meta and try to get them connected in meta or physical.

00:43:14.060 --> 00:43:17.280
 Do you have some stories that you'd be willing to share on that, what that could look like?

00:43:18.020 --> 00:43:21.340
 It's stuff that only God could have, you know, put together.

00:43:21.600 --> 00:43:31.020
 One thing I want to say is, you know, the reason I want to bring them in is not because it's in VR, and that's cool, and I help with the art and things like that.

00:43:31.060 --> 00:43:31.940
 I want to show them.

00:43:32.280 --> 00:43:33.100
 It's for the gospel.

00:43:33.620 --> 00:43:35.500
 And I think, like, that's why I'm there.

00:43:35.900 --> 00:43:37.500
 I mean, VR is cool.

00:43:37.940 --> 00:43:38.960
 Like, don't get me wrong.

00:43:39.120 --> 00:43:51.660
 Like, I love coding and art, but I'm there because the change that happened within me, and I have so many people around me that, you know, I'm very, I used to be very respectful of how people want to live their lives, whatever.

00:43:52.000 --> 00:44:02.860
 And I still have, like, that respect, but I also, like, I was just studying today about how, and this morning, how we are to, if you see a brother or sister in sin, you're supposed to restore them lovingly.

00:44:02.860 --> 00:44:13.560
 Like, we're supposed to restore them in a way, and over the past year, Cornerstone's very adamant about planting, even if it's just one person this year.

00:44:14.020 --> 00:44:22.440
 And I'm very much so, like, you know, you do your thing, I do my thing, but you're encouraged to spread it to people around you.

00:44:22.520 --> 00:44:25.900
 And so I share this journey with the people around me.

00:44:27.040 --> 00:44:32.400
 And I've been praying for two people in particular, who I'm going to send this to, so I'm talking about you.

00:44:33.640 --> 00:44:41.340
 And both of them individually came to me wanting to basically be discipled or have somebody to walk with them and be a sister of Christ to them.

00:44:41.840 --> 00:44:43.840
 And I just didn't expect it.

00:44:43.880 --> 00:44:45.600
 So it's come with a little bit of anxiety.

00:44:45.600 --> 00:44:56.480
 I'm working through with Pastor Jason, just talking about yesterday, where basically God is wanting to use me and call me to things, but I have anxiety of failing and not doing it right.

00:44:56.480 --> 00:44:58.140
 So I'm, like, dealing with that.

00:44:58.480 --> 00:45:01.620
 But what's beautiful is that this church, I'm taught that it's not me.

00:45:02.060 --> 00:45:02.880
 It's what God's doing.

00:45:02.940 --> 00:45:05.300
 So I'm just bringing them with me.

00:45:05.460 --> 00:45:06.560
 Come to church with me.

00:45:06.620 --> 00:45:08.580
 I have friends that have attended.

00:45:09.080 --> 00:45:09.580
 I'm good.

00:45:09.780 --> 00:45:10.280
 Thank you.

00:45:10.400 --> 00:45:10.800
 I'm good.

00:45:11.360 --> 00:45:17.260
 I have people that come to on Twitch, on YouTube, watched it.

00:45:17.340 --> 00:45:23.140
 I have people that I'm basically going to bring with me in my luggage if I have to to California next time.

00:45:23.640 --> 00:45:24.960
 It's just that community.

00:45:24.960 --> 00:45:28.480
 So I also got to meet, just a few weeks ago, someone from my small group.

00:45:28.880 --> 00:45:31.480
 They were coming for the Panthers game that we lost.

00:45:31.780 --> 00:45:32.940
 But we won the Braves.

00:45:33.180 --> 00:45:34.840
 They won the Little World Series thing.

00:45:35.200 --> 00:45:36.540
 So I hate on Georgia.

00:45:36.800 --> 00:45:39.840
 Because Pastor Jason's sermon on Sunday had a lot of Georgia hate.

00:45:39.960 --> 00:45:40.560
 And I tried it.

00:45:40.820 --> 00:45:43.020
 I had some Braves hate in my sermon.

00:45:43.180 --> 00:45:50.480
 But in my rant, I think it's really important that we understand we have something in common with people across the world.

00:45:50.580 --> 00:45:53.500
 So, yeah, I have a lot of stories that I'm not going to ramble on about.

00:45:53.900 --> 00:45:56.940
 But you'll see them here next time we do this next year.

00:45:57.100 --> 00:45:58.180
 I love that.

00:45:58.340 --> 00:46:00.800
 I want to ask this follow-up.

00:46:00.980 --> 00:46:07.440
 So the people you're talking to about digital, about MetaChurch, about Cornerstone.

00:46:08.460 --> 00:46:12.860
 So you're experiencing church in virtual reality and you're talking to your friends about it.

00:46:13.260 --> 00:46:14.280
 Do they think it's weird?

00:46:14.840 --> 00:46:15.900
 Yeah, at first.

00:46:16.700 --> 00:46:21.340
 I mean, I have a group of friends that did not think it was weird, which I thought it was weird that they didn't think it was weird.

00:46:21.440 --> 00:46:26.900
 But they know I've been doing this kind of, like, video game development and stuff like that in college.

00:46:27.460 --> 00:46:30.520
 Shout out to the Aurora Game Development Club at Georgia Southern.

00:46:31.440 --> 00:46:35.020
 But I think they always know it's artsy and stuff.

00:46:35.520 --> 00:46:36.680
 They're really interested.

00:46:36.820 --> 00:46:38.440
 But some people think it's weird.

00:46:38.720 --> 00:46:45.980
 Some people think it's, they might think it's a cult or something, you're going across the country, you've never met these people.

00:46:46.380 --> 00:46:49.680
 What do you mean you talk to them every week and you have a small group?

00:46:50.120 --> 00:46:51.800
 Is this a game that you're playing?

00:46:51.880 --> 00:46:53.560
 Like, someone asked me that last week.

00:46:53.600 --> 00:46:54.360
 Is that a game?

00:46:54.540 --> 00:46:55.900
 Like, no, it's real people.

00:46:56.620 --> 00:46:58.740
 So to answer your question, yes, some people.

00:46:58.820 --> 00:47:03.640
 And then I think Nicole hit a really important point about getting out that Christian bubble.

00:47:04.340 --> 00:47:06.500
 Metaverse or not, we should all be out that bubble.

00:47:07.300 --> 00:47:15.900
 We should all be looking at God biblically and not adding to it or subtracting from the word and being open-minded about how we can spread the gospel.

00:47:17.120 --> 00:47:19.140
 And Jeff, it is weird.

00:47:19.680 --> 00:47:22.440
 Like, I'm a hardcore gamer, game developer.

00:47:22.720 --> 00:47:23.400
 I'm in there.

00:47:23.500 --> 00:47:25.600
 And there are moments where you're like, this is bizarre.

00:47:26.220 --> 00:47:28.860
 Like, that happens.

00:47:29.020 --> 00:47:34.880
 But for me, what cemented it early on, and I use this example all the time, is in VRChat, one of the first weeks I'm there.

00:47:34.880 --> 00:47:39.560
 And I'm sitting there delivering the gospel to four Mandalorians and Paul Blart Mall Cop.

00:47:40.660 --> 00:47:43.220
 And I'm like, I have a picture of it.

00:47:43.720 --> 00:47:46.520
 I'm like, what is going on?

00:47:46.940 --> 00:47:51.920
 And, you know, and I'm just going and I'm just like acknowledging, like, this is weird.

00:47:52.400 --> 00:47:59.880
 But when I got done, one of the guys that was his avatar is the Mandalorian, he stopped me and he said, hey, will you pray for me?

00:48:00.080 --> 00:48:04.660
 I have a, my doctor said that I have a heart condition that is probably terminal.

00:48:05.100 --> 00:48:06.620
 And I was just wondering if you'd pray for me.

00:48:07.360 --> 00:48:10.480
 And at that point, like, it all just stripped away.

00:48:10.880 --> 00:48:12.580
 Like, you know, all of it just goes away.

00:48:12.620 --> 00:48:14.520
 And you're like, that's a soul.

00:48:15.240 --> 00:48:18.180
 And it's like no different than if I was on the phone with him right now.

00:48:18.480 --> 00:48:20.700
 And if I was on the phone with him, nobody would think it was weird.

00:48:21.380 --> 00:48:25.500
 And that's what it, and so it is on its face.

00:48:25.500 --> 00:48:29.440
 But it's not when you get down to the fact that it is just souls.

00:48:29.800 --> 00:48:33.660
 And so when you talked about what's the difference in pastoring, it's not.

00:48:33.780 --> 00:48:40.020
 If you, if you, if you care about the lost sheep and the flock, it's not, it's actually not different.

00:48:40.360 --> 00:48:43.920
 And one last thing, can you tell the story about how you do it in pop one?

00:48:44.280 --> 00:48:45.020
 What happened?

00:48:45.760 --> 00:48:46.840
 Can you please say that?

00:48:47.380 --> 00:48:52.560
 One of the biggest misconceptions I had going into VR was that it was all gamers, which it's not.

00:48:52.880 --> 00:48:54.300
 It's heavily social.

00:48:54.300 --> 00:48:55.860
 And it's, that doesn't mean there's not gamers.

00:48:56.040 --> 00:48:56.640
 We're there.

00:48:56.780 --> 00:49:03.740
 But I was just, I was taken aback by how heavily social it is where there's, where people don't, just don't play games.

00:49:03.800 --> 00:49:05.220
 They're just there for the social part.

00:49:05.740 --> 00:49:07.440
 However, there are awesome games.

00:49:07.640 --> 00:49:09.000
 Population one is one of them.

00:49:09.200 --> 00:49:09.700
 I love it.

00:49:09.720 --> 00:49:10.480
 I'm obsessed with it.

00:49:10.860 --> 00:49:16.140
 And so, so every Thursday night I will go in and open up a public lobby.

00:49:16.140 --> 00:49:21.180
 I'll entitle it VR Bible study and just wait for people to come in.

00:49:21.180 --> 00:49:24.180
 And there's a few of us that will go in and we'll just start playing and wait for people to come in.

00:49:24.300 --> 00:49:28.500
 And invariably, random people will just start coming in.

00:49:28.820 --> 00:49:33.880
 And 100% of the people that come in that don't know what it is think that it's a joke.

00:49:34.240 --> 00:49:36.560
 Nobody comes in thinking it's an actual Bible study.

00:49:37.360 --> 00:49:39.600
 But we go and we play and we don't say anything.

00:49:39.700 --> 00:49:40.280
 We just keep playing.

00:49:40.380 --> 00:49:47.760
 And then in between matches, I will, you know, at some point I will round everybody up and I will say, hey, we're in the lobby and I'll just say, hey, let's get together.

00:49:47.940 --> 00:49:49.600
 We're going to do our devotional now.

00:49:50.400 --> 00:49:54.140
 And like all the people that are like thinking it's fake, they're like, no way.

00:49:54.260 --> 00:49:55.580
 This is really a Bible study.

00:49:55.620 --> 00:49:56.500
 I'm like, yeah, it is.

00:49:57.140 --> 00:50:06.080
 So I'll start going into it and we'll get the trolls that will start shooting me and throwing grenades at me or whatever, you know, not grenades, but they'll be shooting at me.

00:50:06.120 --> 00:50:07.440
 They'll be building around me and stuff.

00:50:08.400 --> 00:50:10.120
 And, um, and it's fine.

00:50:10.120 --> 00:50:11.060
 And I just keep going.

00:50:11.460 --> 00:50:16.640
 And every single week when I start at, when I get to the scripture, when I say, okay, let me just read from the word.

00:50:16.640 --> 00:50:23.140
 And I start reading the word, the entire place quiets down every single time.

00:50:23.140 --> 00:50:23.960
 It's amazing.

00:50:24.080 --> 00:50:27.500
 And like every week I'm like, no way this guy's going to stop shooting me.

00:50:27.540 --> 00:50:28.280
 This guy's determined.

00:50:28.500 --> 00:50:29.660
 I start reading the scripture.

00:50:30.060 --> 00:50:31.760
 He stops and he sits down.

00:50:32.640 --> 00:50:38.100
 And, um, and it's just, you know, it's just, we, we talk about like, go where the fruit is.

00:50:38.100 --> 00:50:40.140
 And why, why do we keep going?

00:50:40.180 --> 00:50:42.800
 It's just because we keep seeing fruit that is being born.

00:50:43.580 --> 00:50:48.980
 And, you know, I do the pop one and I, at the end, you know, one of the kids came up to me, could, he's probably 10 years old.

00:50:48.980 --> 00:50:50.420
 And he's like, what was that all about?

00:50:50.780 --> 00:50:53.460
 You know, it's just a kid from, you know, from the United States.

00:50:53.800 --> 00:50:54.900
 And I'm like, well, that was from the Bible.

00:50:54.980 --> 00:50:56.500
 You know, the Bible is like, no, I don't know.

00:50:56.600 --> 00:50:57.480
 What, what is that about?

00:50:57.640 --> 00:51:01.900
 Like, you know, like the Bible, like Jesus and Adam and Eve.

00:51:01.900 --> 00:51:05.420
 And, you know, you heard that he's like, no, I don't know anything about it.

00:51:06.140 --> 00:51:11.480
 And I'm like, you know, we grew up in a time when you at least knew what the Bible had in it.

00:51:11.940 --> 00:51:14.340
 And kids now, like this kid did not know.

00:51:14.600 --> 00:51:16.020
 And I was like, have you seen a church?

00:51:16.200 --> 00:51:17.600
 There's a cross out in front of it.

00:51:17.680 --> 00:51:18.180
 Have you seen that?

00:51:18.240 --> 00:51:19.620
 He goes, yes, I have seen that.

00:51:19.960 --> 00:51:21.120
 So do you know what that cross means?

00:51:21.220 --> 00:51:22.340
 He's like, I have no idea.

00:51:23.280 --> 00:51:29.340
 So I had, you know, two minutes to deliver the entire story of the Bible and the gospel to this kid.

00:51:29.420 --> 00:51:31.840
 And at the end, he's like, well, that's a lot to process.

00:51:31.960 --> 00:51:35.780
 I'm like, yeah, it sure is.

00:51:35.780 --> 00:51:38.100
 But like, let me know if you want to talk more about it.

00:51:38.120 --> 00:51:38.880
 And that's it.

00:51:38.880 --> 00:51:47.240
 And so it's like the opportunity to plant seeds like that and reach kids, you know, men and women, it's just unprecedented.

00:51:47.540 --> 00:51:52.060
 So when you talk about reaching the ends of the earth with the gospel, man, this is a pretty good shot at it.

00:51:52.600 --> 00:51:54.980
 You know, I love hearing about the pop one.

00:51:55.160 --> 00:51:59.080
 And we'd be remiss if we didn't share a story about our sweet Alice.

00:51:59.300 --> 00:51:59.720
 We got it.

00:51:59.980 --> 00:52:00.600
 Nicole's got it.

00:52:01.040 --> 00:52:02.480
 I don't know, Jeff, you have time for that.

00:52:02.500 --> 00:52:05.600
 But there's a story that's just, man, so powerful.

00:52:05.600 --> 00:52:09.680
 And it goes along with what Goose is saying in terms of reaching people that are far from God.

00:52:09.840 --> 00:52:16.680
 And then how they got connected to the Forever family and are being discipled and equipped and doing ministry and reaching.

00:52:16.820 --> 00:52:17.480
 It's crazy.

00:52:17.940 --> 00:52:19.500
 So, Nicole, go ahead.

00:52:19.580 --> 00:52:22.820
 You got to share it because she's discipling our sister.

00:52:23.280 --> 00:52:23.980
 Oh, Alice.

00:52:24.140 --> 00:52:24.360
 Yes.

00:52:24.700 --> 00:52:33.620
 So about probably a year and a change, a year and a few months ago, somebody popped into our alt space service.

00:52:33.800 --> 00:52:37.220
 She was flaming red hair, flaming red outfit.

00:52:37.840 --> 00:52:40.580
 And her avatar name was the future queen of hell.

00:52:41.720 --> 00:52:47.320
 And so, understandably, we kept a pretty close eye on her that first service.

00:52:48.020 --> 00:52:50.360
 And she told me later that she had come in to troll.

00:52:50.460 --> 00:52:54.540
 She had come in to cause problems because she was bored one day.

00:52:55.040 --> 00:52:56.200
 She didn't have anything else to do.

00:52:56.280 --> 00:52:59.020
 So, I'm going to go cause problems at this church.

00:52:59.420 --> 00:53:00.860
 But she kept coming back.

00:53:01.260 --> 00:53:05.420
 And as she kept coming back, like, more and more people started befriending her.

00:53:05.720 --> 00:53:08.200
 We started talking to her, getting to know her a little bit.

00:53:10.080 --> 00:53:12.520
 And just through those, like, we never pushed anything on.

00:53:12.600 --> 00:53:14.980
 She was very clear in Discord that she was not a Christian.

00:53:15.120 --> 00:53:16.480
 She didn't believe any of this stuff.

00:53:16.940 --> 00:53:18.780
 But she kept coming back.

00:53:19.220 --> 00:53:20.520
 And so, we just befriended her.

00:53:20.780 --> 00:53:21.780
 We played games with her.

00:53:21.860 --> 00:53:22.580
 We talked to her.

00:53:24.060 --> 00:53:27.440
 And through that friendship, she started to trust us.

00:53:28.580 --> 00:53:36.200
 To the point where, I think it was January, December, January of this last year, she messaged me on Discord and said,

00:53:36.340 --> 00:53:39.140
 Hey, I'm having a really hard time with something.

00:53:39.440 --> 00:53:40.460
 Can I talk to you about it?

00:53:40.500 --> 00:53:41.360
 I'm like, of course.

00:53:41.480 --> 00:53:42.140
 Yes, please do.

00:53:42.600 --> 00:53:45.720
 And so, she talked to me about how she was having this trouble at work.

00:53:46.700 --> 00:53:49.900
 And as I was talking to her, that led to me just asking her,

00:53:49.960 --> 00:53:52.900
 Hey, do you want to get together once a week and just read the Bible?

00:53:53.900 --> 00:53:54.740
 Just, that's it.

00:53:54.860 --> 00:53:57.720
 Like, not like a Bible study, not trying to push anything on you.

00:53:57.780 --> 00:53:59.080
 Just so you can ask questions.

00:53:59.760 --> 00:54:00.640
 And she said, yes.

00:54:00.660 --> 00:54:01.880
 So, we started doing that.

00:54:02.500 --> 00:54:04.080
 And we did that for several months.

00:54:04.080 --> 00:54:10.100
 And part of that was actually, we decided to go into Rec Room, which is another one of the social apps.

00:54:10.500 --> 00:54:12.320
 And start building.

00:54:12.720 --> 00:54:20.620
 And we ended up that she, as a non-Christian future queen of hell, she built our church campus, our cornerstone campus in Rec Room.

00:54:21.320 --> 00:54:26.680
 So, we have a gorgeous church in that platform that we're starting to get into.

00:54:28.440 --> 00:54:33.080
 But eventually, June of this year, she became a Christian.

00:54:33.480 --> 00:54:34.540
 She changed her name.

00:54:34.720 --> 00:54:37.960
 She turned her life around.

00:54:37.960 --> 00:54:47.820
 And she told me later, as we were walking through some of the discipleship process, and as I got her testimony, that, yes, she was a Satanist.

00:54:48.260 --> 00:54:50.400
 She grew up in a pagan home.

00:54:51.240 --> 00:54:53.220
 There are no believers in her family at all.

00:54:53.520 --> 00:54:55.180
 And she did come in to cause problems.

00:54:55.180 --> 00:55:02.600
 But she said, because you guys were so welcoming, and nobody caused me problems, I decided something kept pulling me back to listen.

00:55:04.120 --> 00:55:11.860
 And she said, I went from a place where I lived in the darkness, because that was the only place I belonged, to now I live in the light.

00:55:11.860 --> 00:55:13.000
 And I have hope.

00:55:13.000 --> 00:55:17.140
 And she's got friends in Rec Room.

00:55:17.380 --> 00:55:18.640
 She hangs out mostly in Rec Room.

00:55:18.720 --> 00:55:24.800
 She has friends in Rec Room that, when I've met them, they're usually drunk most of the time.

00:55:25.020 --> 00:55:29.520
 They're there completely without hope, going through a lot of hard things.

00:55:29.660 --> 00:55:34.220
 And she has shared the love of God with them to the point where they're coming to church with her now.

00:55:35.220 --> 00:55:43.000
 So, I think that story alone, she was baptized in Rec Room just a couple weeks ago, in the church that she built.

00:55:44.320 --> 00:55:46.960
 So, I think that story is my absolute favorite.

00:55:47.400 --> 00:55:51.000
 And as I've discipled her, she is fully into it.

00:55:51.080 --> 00:55:55.860
 The questions she asks, the insight she has into scripture, it's not a surface thing.

00:55:55.960 --> 00:55:59.360
 It is completely changing everything about her.

00:55:59.360 --> 00:56:01.520
 And it's been absolutely incredible to watch.

00:56:02.540 --> 00:56:04.220
 And she lives in the UK, by the way.

00:56:04.380 --> 00:56:05.100
 She is in England.

00:56:05.220 --> 00:56:07.940
 So, future queen of hell is on another continent.

00:56:08.760 --> 00:56:18.820
 And a church in California, through a virtual reality, through a metaverse church, was able to bring a troll to Jesus.

00:56:19.460 --> 00:56:21.140
 I mean, trolls need Christ, too.

00:56:21.640 --> 00:56:23.140
 And so, man, I love that.

00:56:24.080 --> 00:56:29.040
 And she never would have set foot in a brick-and-mortar church in real life.

00:56:29.460 --> 00:56:49.540
 And, I mean, that's the theme why it's like when I talk to churches about the metaverse and doing ministry in that space, you know, after the shock value that I typically get from the average church leader, get down to this fact of the people that are coming to Christ in this space are ones that will never come into the building.

00:56:50.180 --> 00:56:56.400
 We're having conversations with people that don't even know what the Bible is, you know, Michael, to your point.

00:56:56.900 --> 00:57:08.900
 And now we're actually able to engage with them, dialogue with them, build relationships, and turn a pagan on another continent, get them connected to Jesus, and baptize them.

00:57:09.160 --> 00:57:13.000
 You know, that's – thank God for multiverse.

00:57:13.080 --> 00:57:13.440
 It's funny.

00:57:13.560 --> 00:57:17.380
 Like, I made a joke off air this past week or a couple weeks ago.

00:57:17.440 --> 00:57:31.780
 I did a video stream on the future church in the metaverse, and I have never been slammed publicly by so many people as I did trying to compare the church and putting the church in the metaverse.

00:57:32.480 --> 00:57:33.420
 Seed of Satan.

00:57:34.580 --> 00:57:37.760
 This is the birthplace of the Antichrist, the metaverse.

00:57:38.500 --> 00:57:42.020
 And I'm like, have a conversation with some of these people.

00:57:42.680 --> 00:57:45.120
 Talk to people that are actually doing ministry in this space.

00:57:45.360 --> 00:57:57.200
 And what you hear is a completely separate conversation because while the rest of the world is saying no, there are people out there that recognize the potential of the mission field and the opportunities to reach people, a different type of person, in a different way.

00:57:57.200 --> 00:58:00.760
 So I love the fact that you all are doing this.

00:58:00.920 --> 00:58:19.160
 And I have been so happy, you know, talking with Jason, watching from afar, cheering you guys on and the rest of, you know, the DJ Soto's, the Jade Earhart's, the Pastor Brock's, and the other guys that are out there and gals that are just on the edge here.

00:58:19.880 --> 00:58:26.520
 So I'm bleeding edge, doing ministry in places that the average church, at least in the Western Hemisphere, doesn't even consider.

00:58:27.060 --> 00:58:28.400
 They don't even consider that a community.

00:58:28.860 --> 00:58:31.280
 And the fact that you guys are doing church in that space, reaching people.

00:58:31.620 --> 00:58:32.620
 Holy cow, you got Stuart.

00:58:32.880 --> 00:58:36.480
 You're sending Stuart off to be a missionary into VR chat.

00:58:36.600 --> 00:58:38.960
 I mean, that's the unspoken story right here, man.

00:58:39.440 --> 00:58:40.200
 That's phenomenal.

00:58:40.660 --> 00:58:48.600
 Hey, Jason, hone in on this, because I'm hoping somebody's listening to this and realizing, hey, there's actual ministry in that space.

00:58:48.700 --> 00:58:49.520
 Maybe it's a church leader.

00:58:49.620 --> 00:58:50.780
 Maybe it's a high-level volunteer.

00:58:51.440 --> 00:58:53.440
 And they're maybe one to explore this.

00:58:54.020 --> 00:58:54.880
 How do they get started?

00:58:55.300 --> 00:58:56.220
 What do you recommend?

00:58:56.420 --> 00:59:00.540
 How does a church start to explore this idea of doing church, being the church in the metaverse?

00:59:01.320 --> 00:59:02.840
 Yeah, I mean, just first get exposed.

00:59:02.980 --> 00:59:03.600
 Just check it out.

00:59:03.720 --> 00:59:05.100
 I mean, come and see.

00:59:05.420 --> 00:59:08.420
 Come and see the services we do or the Pop One Bible Say.

00:59:08.420 --> 00:59:10.900
 Of course, some of that requires a headset.

00:59:11.340 --> 00:59:11.980
 Some of it doesn't.

00:59:12.060 --> 00:59:15.260
 You can actually do it for free on your desktop, 2D applications.

00:59:15.900 --> 00:59:16.840
 So they can actually come.

00:59:17.160 --> 00:59:22.940
 I mean, they can even start just with watching it live stream, right, on any of our channels, Twitch, YouTube, Facebook.

00:59:23.080 --> 00:59:25.120
 They can see what it looks like.

00:59:25.580 --> 00:59:33.860
 Now, that could be off-putting at first, because where the technology is currently, it still maybe looks like, you know,

00:59:35.380 --> 00:59:38.800
 the avatars are still, you know, cartoonish, if you will.

00:59:39.160 --> 00:59:43.740
 Now, give 5, 10 years, it's going to be pretty crazy in terms of its realism.

00:59:44.360 --> 00:59:47.500
 So that may be off-putting at first, but at least check it out.

00:59:48.200 --> 00:59:53.220
 If they can get into a headset, and they're like, what, $300 for an Oculus Quest 2?

00:59:53.820 --> 00:59:56.660
 Which is not that expensive, I mean, really.

00:59:57.280 --> 01:00:06.600
 And so if they could get a headset, they could then come in and actually see what we're talking about in terms of the connectivity that happens when you're in that 3D experience.

01:00:06.600 --> 01:00:15.460
 The spatial relational connectivity that you have with people and the nonverbals that are still happening, even in the avatar kind of setting.

01:00:15.920 --> 01:00:24.900
 And so if they could see that and see what happens and see the encouraging conversations and prayer and lifting each other up, I think it really will blow them away.

01:00:25.020 --> 01:00:35.540
 And maybe some of those that are so hostile to it because of the entrenched traditions that Michael was talking about, maybe some of that will pull down a notch so they can actually then take a next step.

01:00:35.580 --> 01:00:40.180
 Which the next step would be they just get in and start a ministry.

01:00:40.680 --> 01:00:42.980
 And we really did not know at all what we were doing.

01:00:43.300 --> 01:00:46.340
 I mean, what's the joke you say?

01:00:46.420 --> 01:00:48.080
 I didn't know how to spell, what did you say?

01:00:48.220 --> 01:00:49.620
 I didn't know how to spell VR.

01:00:49.900 --> 01:00:50.080
 Yeah.

01:00:50.400 --> 01:00:51.760
 Yeah, I didn't even know how to spell VR.

01:00:51.760 --> 01:00:53.420
 I was like, let's just do this, whatever it is.

01:00:53.560 --> 01:00:53.980
 It's true.

01:00:54.100 --> 01:00:54.720
 It's really true.

01:00:55.100 --> 01:01:01.320
 And that's why I needed Nicole and no one will take her from me because she was able to really figure all of it out and get us in there.

01:01:01.680 --> 01:01:02.560
 But you can do it.

01:01:02.580 --> 01:01:08.380
 If you have just one person, most likely it'll be a younger person that's probably already a gamer in your church.

01:01:08.460 --> 01:01:11.060
 I would guess a lot of churches probably have that one person.

01:01:11.420 --> 01:01:16.000
 And if you just say to your congregation, we want to go into this space, we're not sure what we're doing yet.

01:01:16.480 --> 01:01:18.080
 I bet you there'll be somebody to pop up.

01:01:18.080 --> 01:01:21.360
 Like a steward, like an angel, it'll say, I'd love to do that.

01:01:21.880 --> 01:01:22.760
 $300 headset.

01:01:23.480 --> 01:01:23.860
 Boom.

01:01:24.100 --> 01:01:26.920
 Then before you know it, you've got a little space you can meet.

01:01:27.960 --> 01:01:31.280
 Lakeland Church, Jeff, you helped and we helped with those guys.

01:01:31.640 --> 01:01:34.400
 Just getting into a platform that's actually free.

01:01:34.700 --> 01:01:35.780
 There's free platforms.

01:01:36.320 --> 01:01:37.280
 And then just be there.

01:01:37.340 --> 01:01:38.680
 Be faithful to show up.

01:01:39.180 --> 01:01:41.120
 And people will just start to connect.

01:01:41.280 --> 01:01:44.480
 And if you love people, they will stick around and they will hear.

01:01:44.580 --> 01:01:46.960
 And before you know it, who knows where the Lord will lead it.

01:01:47.180 --> 01:01:48.160
 So it's not complicated.

01:01:48.740 --> 01:01:50.960
 I mean, there are some nuances and details, of course.

01:01:51.520 --> 01:01:53.660
 But really to get started, it's not complicated.

01:01:53.660 --> 01:02:02.900
 But I would say get in and be exposed so they can see what it's like and not just have these caricatures of this that they've been told about.

01:02:03.280 --> 01:02:03.940
 Well said.

01:02:04.100 --> 01:02:12.720
 You know, in Lakeland Church, Stuart's a friend over there, Stuart McPherson, I think he told me recently, they spent $600 to start their VR church.

01:02:13.260 --> 01:02:20.580
 They bought two headsets and so they give, you know, to volunteers to utilize during the services and things.

01:02:21.080 --> 01:02:24.540
 And the world itself was free within all VR to build out.

01:02:24.900 --> 01:02:31.420
 Yeah, I mean, volunteers need to get involved and you need to staff it or at least structure it some way, accountability understaffed.

01:02:31.420 --> 01:02:36.860
 But there's the actual execution of this is dirt cheap in the virtual reality realm.

01:02:37.500 --> 01:02:40.660
 And I mean, the fruit of it, these stories are phenomenal.

01:02:40.900 --> 01:02:44.260
 The future queen of hell, getting baptized and things like that.

01:02:44.380 --> 01:02:56.020
 And that's what a phenomenal story that's just starting, you know, and as she's developed and is starting to, you said, even bringing some of her friends along and championing this idea.

01:02:56.020 --> 01:03:07.520
 You've got Stuart, who's, you know, owning this idea of being a meta missionary and running into VR chat, the wild, wild west with the light of the gospel.

01:03:08.060 --> 01:03:18.500
 Angel, who's taking this information and this understanding, and she is literally being the feet of the gospel in physical space, being encouraged by meta family.

01:03:18.720 --> 01:03:21.780
 Like, there's two phenomenal stories just within those two.

01:03:22.220 --> 01:03:27.500
 The idea of championing, the pastoring people in digital space.

01:03:27.640 --> 01:03:29.340
 Like, I mean, there were so many other questions.

01:03:29.960 --> 01:03:35.640
 Michael, we're going to have to get together and do a podcast later on this because I want to unpack so much more.

01:03:35.940 --> 01:03:36.580
 Forget Jason.

01:03:36.800 --> 01:03:38.140
 Like, he's, you know, he's done.

01:03:38.720 --> 01:03:39.520
 Let's, let's, let's.

01:03:39.880 --> 01:03:40.940
 I'm old hat, man.

01:03:41.080 --> 01:03:43.140
 I was born in 1975, Jeff.

01:03:43.540 --> 01:03:44.720
 Hey, this guy's like ancient.

01:03:44.960 --> 01:03:45.940
 He's like grandpa.

01:03:45.940 --> 01:03:47.880
 I'm surprised you still have your teeth in your mouth.

01:03:48.440 --> 01:03:53.080
 But, you know, some of the options, some of the opportunities to even learn from you, Michael, and this is great.

01:03:53.480 --> 01:04:02.760
 And, you know, honestly, and this, you know, maybe I should have said up front, but this, you're the only church I know that, well, I mean, maybe Lakeland, I think, is getting there.

01:04:02.920 --> 01:04:04.960
 But that's doing three expressions of church.

01:04:05.280 --> 01:04:06.240
 You're doing physical.

01:04:06.880 --> 01:04:12.440
 You're doing avatar, meta, and you're broadcasting services as well.

01:04:12.500 --> 01:04:13.840
 So you're doing like a fidgetal approach.

01:04:14.000 --> 01:04:15.300
 That's three modes.

01:04:16.140 --> 01:04:21.780
 Um, and by the way, last I asked, you were like 250 people at your physical environments.

01:04:21.780 --> 01:04:22.980
 Like, how big are you now?

01:04:23.440 --> 01:04:24.800
 Yeah, probably a 10, it's 250.

01:04:25.040 --> 01:04:26.520
 Yeah, maybe 300, something like that.

01:04:26.600 --> 01:04:27.140
 But yeah.

01:04:27.340 --> 01:04:29.740
 I mean, so this is not a mega giga multi.

01:04:30.060 --> 01:04:35.360
 This is not a very rich, wealthy church that's just burning money here.

01:04:35.820 --> 01:04:49.840
 And that approach to recognizing an opportunity to multiply inexpensively and have an impact with people that don't know who God is or are not going to the buildings.

01:04:50.360 --> 01:04:56.200
 My gosh, like, I mean, you're one of my favorite churches in the country just because you're looking at this from a different approach.

01:04:56.460 --> 01:04:59.580
 So, you know, thank you for doing everything you're doing in this space.

01:05:00.000 --> 01:05:00.780
 Jeff, we appreciate that.

01:05:00.900 --> 01:05:05.240
 You know, one thing I've been thinking about, I think churches are really going to have to process this together.

01:05:05.560 --> 01:05:14.940
 To be honest about the coming, the coming next 5, 10, 20, 50, you know, whatever years, we're probably going to have to start thinking about not mega, but meta.

01:05:15.440 --> 01:05:19.100
 Because I do think it's going to be harder and harder for mega churches and they're so expensive.

01:05:19.400 --> 01:05:32.140
 And the people that go to the mega churches, you know, they're probably, for the most part, not that unchurched don't sometimes matriculate into those places, but usually it's just from all the data that's out there and anecdotal stories as well.

01:05:32.300 --> 01:05:37.940
 It's usually people that are in some way already churched or maybe been de-churched and they, which is great.

01:05:38.020 --> 01:05:40.760
 We love to see de-church get re-churched in a mega church.

01:05:40.880 --> 01:05:41.540
 That's great.

01:05:41.620 --> 01:05:42.700
 Praise God if that's what happens.

01:05:42.700 --> 01:05:50.360
 But as far as like really making a dent in the unchurched, massively unchurched population, right?

01:05:50.420 --> 01:05:56.880
 Gen Z, Generation Alpha, it's unprecedented the levels of unchurchedness that exist there.

01:05:56.960 --> 01:06:00.180
 And so I think we're going to have to go towards meta, not so much mega.

01:06:00.760 --> 01:06:10.820
 And I think there's some expressions and maybe someday we can talk about this, but with the hybrid approach, you know, for example, Stuart, you know, he was in the VR church.

01:06:10.820 --> 01:06:16.500
 And then, you know, he and I talked about how to get connected there in North Carolina, and now he's in real life church.

01:06:16.560 --> 01:06:23.300
 So one of the things we are excited about is the possibility of when you connect all these people in the metaverse, then help them find also a physical church.

01:06:23.420 --> 01:06:28.800
 And then they infect or influence that physical church to say, hey, maybe we should start thinking about church differently.

01:06:28.800 --> 01:06:30.120
 And they get them involved.

01:06:30.560 --> 01:06:36.860
 And then before you know it, man, we're just, the whole church is working together collaboratively to do the Great Commission together.

01:06:37.120 --> 01:06:41.720
 On top of that, what Angel's talking about, I mean, she's got like 12, she's literally got 12 disciples.

01:06:41.800 --> 01:06:43.820
 I was looking at a picture of her small group, 12 people.

01:06:44.120 --> 01:06:45.660
 She's in the front with the picture and the avatars.

01:06:45.740 --> 01:06:49.400
 I'm like, oh my gosh, you're like, you're like following Jesus's path here.

01:06:49.400 --> 01:06:55.440
 But she's already gotten people connected in IRL, like you said, her family from Atlanta and friends that went to the Panthers game with her.

01:06:55.820 --> 01:07:05.400
 One of the thoughts is what if we have some microchurch expressions, some organic churches that grow up in IRL that are in some way centered on this concept of the metaverse.

01:07:05.400 --> 01:07:07.920
 So you get them excited, but you're still meeting IRL.

01:07:08.040 --> 01:07:12.000
 There's a local expression, but then they're getting out together as missionaries into the metaverse.

01:07:12.540 --> 01:07:18.880
 And so now you have all these churches that are just local, micro, cheap, not expensive megachurches.

01:07:19.040 --> 01:07:23.240
 And I think that's probably going to be the next phase of the church, at least in the West.

01:07:23.620 --> 01:07:29.900
 Because I don't think the megachurch, I just don't know if they can, over time, you know, they'll be the big ones that survive.

01:07:30.220 --> 01:07:32.120
 But I think we got to go meta, not mega.

01:07:32.580 --> 01:07:33.480
 Let's do this.

01:07:34.120 --> 01:07:36.120
 We're going to do another podcast on this.

01:07:36.120 --> 01:07:40.400
 And you listening audience, I agree with everything Jason just said.

01:07:40.920 --> 01:07:46.600
 And if you're still listening to this, I don't know when I'm going to play this podcast, so it may or may not be relevant.

01:07:47.080 --> 01:07:51.620
 But if you haven't heard a major announcement coming out of the Church Digital, pray.

01:07:52.740 --> 01:08:00.500
 Because everything Jason just said, we're going to try to make a reality come in a big way for a number of churches in America and around the world.

01:08:00.940 --> 01:08:04.020
 So the listenership tends to die off towards the end.

01:08:04.020 --> 01:08:07.080
 And so it may be my mother who just heard that podcast.

01:08:07.080 --> 01:08:08.920
 I don't know who else is actually listening.

01:08:09.740 --> 01:08:09.840
 Huh?

01:08:09.980 --> 01:08:10.540
 She can start it.

01:08:10.620 --> 01:08:12.740
 Listen, my mom's leading three small groups online.

01:08:12.880 --> 01:08:13.420
 Actually, two.

01:08:13.780 --> 01:08:15.120
 She's multiplying into a third.

01:08:15.520 --> 01:08:16.020
 And so she's...

01:08:17.020 --> 01:08:19.380
 My mom's 75 and is doing...

01:08:19.380 --> 01:08:21.580
 She got disciples all over the freaking country.

01:08:21.940 --> 01:08:25.860
 Well, hey, Jeff, you'll have two listeners because my mom will also listen to the end with your mom.

01:08:26.020 --> 01:08:27.560
 Mom power for the win.

01:08:27.700 --> 01:08:28.840
 Hey, seriously, mom power.

01:08:29.020 --> 01:08:29.860
 All about it.

01:08:29.860 --> 01:08:30.380
 That's awesome.

01:08:30.720 --> 01:08:32.260
 Hey, Angel, I'm just curious.

01:08:33.480 --> 01:08:39.620
 Within your virtual reality, within your meta small group, how many states, countries, like what's the distribution of that?

01:08:40.020 --> 01:08:42.720
 Is it hyperlocal to you or is it all scattered all over?

01:08:43.120 --> 01:08:44.460
 Definitely scattered all over.

01:08:44.960 --> 01:08:49.200
 The cool thing is I actually went to my hometown, Savannah, this past weekend.

01:08:49.340 --> 01:08:53.540
 I had my mom join me as a little special guest to the small group.

01:08:53.860 --> 01:08:54.540
 They loved her.

01:08:54.600 --> 01:08:55.220
 It was awesome.

01:08:56.020 --> 01:08:57.980
 So there's so many accents.

01:08:58.180 --> 01:08:59.960
 She was just like in awe.

01:09:01.060 --> 01:09:02.200
 Literally all over.

01:09:02.340 --> 01:09:03.780
 All those countries I said earlier.

01:09:04.000 --> 01:09:06.520
 And you would hear it when we read the scriptures together.

01:09:06.680 --> 01:09:07.180
 You would just...

01:09:07.180 --> 01:09:10.440
 You can tell someone is from or somewhere else.

01:09:10.960 --> 01:09:13.220
 Especially when it's like super late for them.

01:09:13.940 --> 01:09:16.240
 I mean, it's late for me too, but it's super late.

01:09:16.440 --> 01:09:18.040
 And then someone else is like, oh, it's not that late.

01:09:18.300 --> 01:09:19.940
 We are all in different time zones.

01:09:20.300 --> 01:09:23.940
 All in different continents, countries, different experiences.

01:09:24.140 --> 01:09:25.420
 It's definitely spread out.

01:09:25.840 --> 01:09:29.380
 It's very rare, I think, to find people actually near you.

01:09:29.440 --> 01:09:32.280
 And I do find someone that's like in Georgia.

01:09:32.560 --> 01:09:33.760
 Most likely they'll be in Atlanta.

01:09:34.100 --> 01:09:35.480
 I'm like, oh my gosh.

01:09:35.480 --> 01:09:37.060
 Because, you know, it's not...

01:09:37.060 --> 01:09:37.680
 It's kind of rare.

01:09:38.300 --> 01:09:39.300
 Love what you guys are doing.

01:09:39.760 --> 01:09:44.280
 Love what's coming out of the church you weren't expected to.

01:09:44.340 --> 01:09:49.000
 The small church on the West Coast that is attacking the multiverse.

01:09:49.220 --> 01:09:49.860
 Or the multiverse.

01:09:50.080 --> 01:09:50.700
 The metaverse.

01:09:51.220 --> 01:09:52.960
 Completely separate podcast on the multiverse.

01:09:53.440 --> 01:09:53.680
 Sorry.

01:09:53.960 --> 01:09:55.800
 That's the struggle of my life.

01:09:55.940 --> 01:09:58.180
 So, hey, we're going to land the plane.

01:09:58.380 --> 01:10:00.020
 I thank you so much for this time.

01:10:00.540 --> 01:10:01.160
 Everybody on here.

01:10:01.240 --> 01:10:02.900
 Jason, thank you for assembling the team.

01:10:03.020 --> 01:10:04.940
 Stuart, Michael, Nicole, Angel.

01:10:05.040 --> 01:10:06.500
 It's been an awesome conversation.

01:10:06.900 --> 01:10:10.500
 But sadly, we got to go and I'll reschedule something else.

01:10:10.700 --> 01:10:15.440
 But for everybody I just said, Jason, Stuart, Michael, Nicole, Angel.

01:10:15.740 --> 01:10:17.160
 This is Jeff at the Church Digital.

01:10:17.640 --> 01:10:18.460
 You know, we stayed at Church Planning.

01:10:18.760 --> 01:10:20.360
 Thanks for jumping on the podcast.

01:10:20.480 --> 01:10:21.840
 We'll see you next time here at the show.

01:10:21.840 --> 01:10:22.520
 Y'all have a good one.