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 Welcome to the Church Digital Podcast, powered by Stadia Church Planting.

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 Through this podcast, learn about how God is using technology and innovation

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 in digital and digital environments around the world.

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 Our goal? To help churches like yours learn to be the church digitally.

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 Our heart? That churches like yours will discover a newfound focus on disciple-making

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 that will revolutionize your church.

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 And now, your host, here's Jeff Reed.

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 Hey, Merry Christmas, everybody. As we're heading into wrapping up this holiday season,

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 Christmas is mere days away here with the release of this podcast.

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 I want to ask you a question up front. How are your boundaries working out for you?

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 How's your soul? What's going on inside you right now?

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 Hey, it's Jeff here with the Church Digital Podcast, Digital Church Network as well.

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 That's coming soon. You'll hear more about that as we get closer into 2022.

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 But hey, I wanted us to pause and I actually wanted us to have a hopefully a healthy conversation here

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 with this podcast. How's your margin? How are your boundaries? How's your soul? How's your soul care?

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 How's your mental health in this season? Fried? Burned? What's going on with you?

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 To be honest, for me, Confession Hour here with the Church Digital.

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 For me, working in the Christmas season at a church, those were dark times.

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 Those were some of the most stressful months I ever had.

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 Yes, there's joy in overcoming those stresses and seeing the finished product of what happens.

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 And I do believe that God was glorified through the efforts and that people did come to Christ.

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 But it's interesting in those seasons, man, there were no margins.

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 There were no boundaries. It was to the wall.

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 And what was fascinating was even outside of the Christmas season, Easter and others,

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 it's like once you concede on some of those boundaries for a season, for a brief while,

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 that brief season gets larger and larger and more often and more often and more often,

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 then all of a sudden, to Confession Hour, once again, I found myself in an immense season of unhealth,

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 of marital struggle and stress.

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 And the church wasn't responsible, but I was responsible.

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 But it was all centered around unhealthy environments.

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 And this begs the question, and this is the heart of what I wanted to get in.

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 This is going to be a frank conversation, straight up.

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 Listen, how do I lead someone so that they have healthy margins?

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 How can I lead someone who maybe has too healthy of a margin and they need to ramp up and be more productive,

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 not to the point of abusive, but to push them beyond some things that they may have set up?

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 How do I respond as an employee when my boss, when my supervisor,

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 when there are individuals that are pushing me beyond the boundaries that I have established?

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 As a church, is it okay to have a season where it's just crazy?

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 Or is that really pouring gasoline on the flame and doing things maybe for the cause of Christ that may not be necessarily Christ-like?

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 Yeah, we start to really start to unravel some things because in the end, in the Christmas season, it's very easy to get overloaded.

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 It's very easy to do a lot of things for the kingdom.

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 And yes, we want to celebrate Christ's birth and give honor and glory to God as a result of it.

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 But at the cost of our relationships, our marriages with our kids, these are questions that, to be honest, in 2021, mid-post-COVID,

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 I don't know that I necessarily had all the answers for.

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 And so I sought the interwebs far and wide to try to find somebody who understood digital

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 and at the same time could have a conversation about boundaries and soul care.

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 And to that end, I wanted to bring in digital pastor, John Pyle.

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 Now, John has been a voice on social media that I have loved connecting with over the months.

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 And it was like, hey, John, jump in this podcast.

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 Let's have this conversation and dig deep.

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 And John rewarded that conversation very well.

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 And so check this out.

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 I want you to listen in as we're wrestling with what it means to actually lead or be led to have margins

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 or support the margins of our employees, even in this stressful seasons like December.

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 So for the conversation, I'm bringing in John Pyle from City Church and myself, Jeff, with the Church Digital,

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 as well as the Digital Church Network, in a conversation that I'm simply calling,

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 do digital pastors ever get a break?

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 Okay, everybody, here you go.

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 Hey, John, thanks for jumping on here and having this conversation.

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 Just, man, maybe tell the audience a little bit about yourself and your ministry story.

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 Yes, I am an associate pastor at City Church in San Antonio.

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 Associate pastor doesn't tell you anything about what I actually do, right?

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 That gives you kind of just the general job title piece.

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 But I'm responsible for digital stuff, but I also do pastoral care.

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 So marriage program, welcome team, prayer team, and things along those lines.

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 Didn't grow up in the church.

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 Didn't think I'd ever work for a church.

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 And God had other plans.

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 And started here as the creative pastor's assistant and got fired from that job about a weekend because I was a terrible assistant and not very detail-oriented.

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 And so he's like, we got to find something else for you.

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 And a long path and ended up being a pastor.

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 So you got canned as a detailed person and ended up going to be a pastor.

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 That's really interesting.

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 You know, you're not the—you are the second person that I've heard have this combination of digital responsibilities and pastoral care responsibilities.

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 So you're not the first guy.

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 You're not alone in this.

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 A transformation church in the Carolinas, Derwin Grace Church, they have the same pattern.

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 But it's super rare.

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 Like, what does that balance even look like for you where you're highly relational, face-to-face, dealing with soul care issues, and then you're dealing with the technology aspects of this?

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 Talk to me a little bit.

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 Yeah, well, you know, as I mentioned, I'm not the most detail-oriented person.

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 And so thankfully I have some other folks who can take care of some of the detail parts.

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 But so much of digital ministry is relational.

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 And I think our focus here at City Church, you know, they're streaming the service and they're doing that.

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 And so it's not that that's bad or that that's negative or that doesn't matter.

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 But so much of what we see is connecting with people digitally and driving engagement is the relational part.

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 People want a relationship with their church, a relationship with their pastors, and a place to get care.

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 And so a big part of the message is we get our prayer requests, right?

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 It's a big part of the comments we see on social.

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 And it's a lot of the reason why people are reaching out for us.

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 And so it's a role that is kind of molded to my personality.

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 It wouldn't necessarily, if I left my role today, I don't think we'd hire a pastoral care person and a digital person and one person.

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 But it just fits personality because I, you know, digital just makes sense to me.

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 It's something that I do outside of work.

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 And so it just fits for what I do in my job.

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 Yeah, I was totally not anticipating the soul care part of this too.

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 So I'm going to like, whatever, run on a tangent over here a little bit.

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 What's your break of time?

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 Like, what percentage of time are you digital?

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 What percentage of time are you soul care?

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 Do you use digital in the soul care with the physical?

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 Like, is there any crossover?

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 Like, just maybe explore a little bit what the pastoral care piece looks like for your church and how you're utilizing it.

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 Yeah.

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 Oh, yeah, man.

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 I, it will vary week to week.

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 And so obviously, like many church jobs, it'll depend on what's going on.

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 But I would say that a significant portion of what I'm doing is the pastoral care piece.

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 And then, you know, let's say 25 to 30 hours a week is probably the, you know, the best breakdown.

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 So like with marriage program and, you know, you send out emails and you, you, you know, return phone calls and text messages and all that stuff.

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 I'm thankful we have a relatively large staff.

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 And so most of our pastors participate in pastoral care.

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 So we have a rotation.

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 And so like Monday mornings and Monday afternoons are staffed by two different people.

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 Same with Tuesday and then somebody on the weekend and all that.

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 But I'm overseeing that.

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 And I'm the catch all in case something doesn't get caught.

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 And then the digital piece is a little less active depending on what we're doing.

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 So if I'm filming something, whether it's a podcast or recording something, then I'm going to spend more time writing, doing all that in that week.

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 But to me, the two just, they connect significantly.

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 And something we learned during the pandemic, and it goes back to some of the relational pieces, that church, people weren't defining their church where they got their content.

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 It was where they got their care.

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 And during the pandemic, because look, man, Andy Stanley and Stephen Furtick and Rick Warren and Mike Todd, they're better than we are.

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 They're better preachers than we are.

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 I mean, in fairness, they're better than everybody is.

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 Yeah.

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 Well, like Andy, I mean, if I'm going to go on a tangent, Andy Stanley might be one of the best communicators in the whole world.

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 Just period.

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 He's just incredible.

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 And so people could just listen to Andy Stanley.

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 Like, it's a pandemic.

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 You're not going anywhere.

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 So people were listening to sermons from amazing teachers.

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 And so they weren't defining where they went to church by where they got that content.

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 It was where they got their care.

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 And so we found that digital means to reach out to people.

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 When it came to our groups, we had to move all of our small groups to Zoom.

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 The ones that were the most successful were the groups that were meeting in person already that just continued through Zoom.

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 They just continued what they were doing because the relationship part was there.

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 And people, you know, they stayed going because of that.

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 And so the pandemic was hugely challenging, I think, for people.

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 But we found that the digital blended really well because it was a way for people to connect.

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 But we were finding trouble connecting to new people because there's, you know, the market's flooded.

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 There's all sorts of stuff.

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 And it felt like the pandemic kind of washed away what wasn't solid.

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 And so if you had a good relationship, if you had a deep connection, if you were totally bought in, that's who we have now.

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 That's who's left, right?

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 That's who's there.

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 And those are the people that were logging in every week, dialing it, whatever, however they watched it.

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 And we're staying connected.

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 And so using digital means, whether it's GroupMe, GroupMe was a huge thing for us, for our circle leaders, our small group leaders.

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 Because texting is just, especially if you're, like, a certain age group, right?

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 Probably, like, the Gen Xers down.

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 Like, texting is just how you do most things.

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 And so texting and GroupMe was huge and, you know, obviously Zoom.

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 And it's like, come on, Skype.

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 Y'all blew a 3-1 lead.

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 Like, everybody used Skype for video chatting before the pandemic.

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 And then Zoom just took over.

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 It's like, how did that happen, Skype?

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 How did you do that?

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 Anyway, so we had, so the digital blends with the pastoral care pretty, in a great way, just because we've seen that care piece and it's a way to care for people.

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 And so when people can't come in, and we still have people who aren't coming live, you know, whenever there's a variant spike or people are worried about getting their kids vaccinated or whatever, digital has been a great way, not just to, like, show people the service, but to actually stay connected.

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 Love it.

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 The idea of it's more than just the content.

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 The church is defined by the care, by the community of that.

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 Love the heart behind that.

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 Hey, so let's turn the corner here, because I'm excited about this.

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 This podcast is literally playing Christmas week.

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 And so it is out there.

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 It is coming.

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 And really, you know, as I'm trying to think, what do we want to talk about Christmas week?

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 What's the show?

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 What's the opportunity?

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 What's the spin?

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 What's the angle?

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 It really came down to this, man, do digital pastors or even pastors in general, like, do we ever get a break?

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 What does downtime look like?

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 Like, I can remember in my ministry career, I was in Orlando, Florida, working down here in Miami, getting text messages while I'm on vacation, literally contemplating, it is so messy because I have left.

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 I may have to leave vacation, drive overnight down back to Miami to solve a problem.

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 And as we're coming up towards an opportunity for health, for regeneration, for restoration, man, do we get a break?

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 And so, you know, John, I know you're passionate about this with some of the soul care angles.

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 And I've been watching John on social from afar.

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 And when it was like, man, I really want to get somebody to talk about this.

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 I didn't have to look far because I know John and who his character is a man on this topic.

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 So talk to me a little bit, John.

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 Like, what?

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 Well, let me even, let's spin it personally towards you, just to intro.

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 Do you struggle with this?

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 Do you struggle with or do you see the struggles of that?

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 Talk to me a little bit here.

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 Absolutely.

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 And it is so, it is so difficult.

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 And so to share a little bit of like what I noticed, right?

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 The pandemic put a lot of things in perspective.

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 And so for a while, my wife, she's a high school teacher.

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 She was working from home doing virtual and we worked from home and it was, it didn't feel

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 terrible, right?

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 We could get our kids.

00:14:02.720 --> 00:14:03.120
 Okay.

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 I take that back.

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 It was really hard doing school with the kids and working at the same time.

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 I have the rose colored glasses now because that's past, but, um, you know, we're working

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 and I realized that, you know, we would work and we'd kind of be done.

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 But what happened was when she went back to work, what I realized is that I had zero boundaries.

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 And so I was at home with the kids before the kids went back to school because all of the

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 teachers in our district had to go back.

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 Even when they were doing virtual, they were doing it in school.

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 Uh, the teachers were.

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 And so I was at home with the kids managing that, but I realized that I was working until she

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 came home.

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 There was no boundary.

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 I had never set my own boundaries.

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 And so part of the deal with digital ministry and digital pastors getting a break is that

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 the boundaries aren't in place for you.

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 When you go to a nine to five workplace, it's like, well, the office starts to close up and

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 everybody's going and you just, okay, I got to go set the alarm.

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 Right.

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 And there's other things that are encouraging you to set boundaries in your life.

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 And when those go away, that makes it hard.

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 And then I'll speak to the content piece because if you're a non-digital kind of pastor, it's

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 like, well, church is on Sunday and then we have, you know, maybe Sunday school or you

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 do small groups or different groups throughout the week, but they're fixed times and digital

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 ministry doesn't stop.

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 It's 24 seven constant.

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 And I, this reminds me, Jeff, you'll laugh at this, but I was explaining to my kids, there

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 was a gag in the Simpsons about how bad summer TV was, that it was all reruns and like, just

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 re you know, shows that you didn't want to watch.

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 It's an episode where Bart breaks his, uh, breaks his leg and he's like, oh, I'll just watch

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 TV all summer.

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 And then the TV was terrible and he turns off the TV and I had to explain to my kids like,

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 no, it used to be all reruns and it was really bad.

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 And it just, it wasn't streaming and they didn't get it.

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 And so that's the, what that frames for me is digital ministry is it's like, dude, it's

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 24 seven streaming constantly.

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 There's always new content.

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 There's always a video to make.

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 Now you don't have to go to the office to record a video.

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 You got it on your computer.

00:16:08.400 --> 00:16:09.080
 You got it on your phone.

00:16:09.200 --> 00:16:10.220
 You can make content.

00:16:10.300 --> 00:16:11.180
 You can write content.

00:16:11.260 --> 00:16:12.300
 You can respond to people.

00:16:12.420 --> 00:16:13.600
 You can retweet people.

00:16:13.660 --> 00:16:14.280
 You can comment.

00:16:14.580 --> 00:16:15.740
 It's 24 seven.

00:16:15.800 --> 00:16:18.800
 And so there's not built in boundaries, right?

00:16:18.860 --> 00:16:20.620
 There used like the built in boundaries.

00:16:20.620 --> 00:16:26.600
 We hadn't, I had no idea personally how much I relied on those to set boundaries for myself.

00:16:27.460 --> 00:16:34.380
 And as a digital pastor, our world is 24 seven because even, even as a, as a regular pastor,

00:16:34.500 --> 00:16:35.260
 quote unquote, right?

00:16:35.540 --> 00:16:37.300
 Most people are not going to call you at 11.

00:16:37.880 --> 00:16:38.700
 That's just not polite.

00:16:38.960 --> 00:16:40.260
 That's just not what church people do.

00:16:40.340 --> 00:16:45.520
 No matter what the, how difficult the thing they're going through is, no matter, unless

00:16:45.520 --> 00:16:49.780
 it's an absolute tragedy, people are like, well, you know, we don't call before 10 or

00:16:49.780 --> 00:16:50.380
 after 10.

00:16:50.380 --> 00:16:54.220
 I, you know, that's another thing I'm talking to my kids about of like, you can't text your

00:16:54.220 --> 00:16:59.660
 friends at seven 30 on Saturday, like the morning, like let people wake up, right?

00:16:59.680 --> 00:17:01.000
 Like let people wake up, please.

00:17:01.920 --> 00:17:06.220
 And so, you know, people don't do that, but digitally, that's not how people think people

00:17:06.220 --> 00:17:09.200
 message on Facebook at two 30 in the morning and expect a response.

00:17:09.800 --> 00:17:14.920
 And so we have a whole other world where the boundaries are not set for us, where it's

00:17:14.920 --> 00:17:17.580
 intrinsic boundaries versus extrinsic boundaries.

00:17:17.920 --> 00:17:18.320
 Yeah.

00:17:18.320 --> 00:17:19.960
 I'm, I'm, I'm horrible at that.

00:17:20.140 --> 00:17:23.920
 Like I will, I'll send the email at 3 a.m.

00:17:23.920 --> 00:17:24.780
 At 2 a.m.

00:17:25.080 --> 00:17:25.580
 It's funny.

00:17:25.660 --> 00:17:28.620
 Like I used to like be mad at myself when I did it, just to be honest.

00:17:29.560 --> 00:17:33.080
 Cause it's like, Oh man, I didn't mean that meant to press save, not send.

00:17:34.340 --> 00:17:37.700
 You know, but then it got to the point that it's like, ah, they've got, they've got do

00:17:37.700 --> 00:17:38.620
 not disturb on the phone.

00:17:38.700 --> 00:17:39.160
 They're fine.

00:17:39.700 --> 00:17:43.100
 Uh, but then I just, I started, I started, I started discovering like some of these people

00:17:43.100 --> 00:17:45.800
 I was sending emails, like they were angry at me for it.

00:17:45.800 --> 00:17:47.300
 And it was like, Oh, okay.

00:17:47.300 --> 00:17:48.060
 I'm sorry.

00:17:48.180 --> 00:17:52.480
 It didn't, didn't mean that I will, uh, you know, work, work better at scheduling, you

00:17:52.480 --> 00:17:53.480
 know, through that.

00:17:53.480 --> 00:17:58.680
 But the, the, the, just the, the constantness in the digital space, I remember that.

00:17:58.680 --> 00:18:04.520
 Like I, I often joke that my, my best hours of operation was like 11 a.m.

00:18:04.520 --> 00:18:05.580
 to 11 p.m.

00:18:05.620 --> 00:18:11.140
 Like, you know, just work through the day because that's when, you know, I could sleep in, get

00:18:11.140 --> 00:18:16.260
 some coffee, enjoy some quiet for myself when, when, when the kids and my wife went to work

00:18:16.260 --> 00:18:21.480
 in school and then it was, okay, let me, let me do the work stuff, the, the, the, an office

00:18:21.480 --> 00:18:25.780
 church stuff for five, six hours and let me deal with the volunteers that I need to work

00:18:25.780 --> 00:18:26.720
 with after the fact.

00:18:26.720 --> 00:18:33.340
 So like church job is this 11 to 11 really thing, except for, you know, family, kids,

00:18:33.600 --> 00:18:38.080
 everything else that kind of fits in between that, which of course does not operate on an

00:18:38.080 --> 00:18:39.360
 11 to 11 schedule.

00:18:40.060 --> 00:18:40.080
 No.

00:18:40.300 --> 00:18:41.320
 And there's that.

00:18:41.580 --> 00:18:46.240
 And so that, that whole idea that the, the world is kind of shifting.

00:18:46.260 --> 00:18:51.220
 Because like, I just think of how my kids see the world and there's constant access.

00:18:51.220 --> 00:18:55.800
 So because my wife's a teacher, they have a messaging software where it's a safe place

00:18:55.800 --> 00:18:58.900
 where kids can message each other and the adults can message.

00:18:58.900 --> 00:19:06.600
 And it's like this linear idea of work happens between this time and family happens between

00:19:06.600 --> 00:19:07.200
 this time.

00:19:07.200 --> 00:19:12.000
 And it's kind of modular of like the, the whole idea of a nine to five.

00:19:12.000 --> 00:19:15.840
 It's like, like I, we're going to have to explain that to people at some point, because

00:19:15.840 --> 00:19:18.220
 that's just doesn't, that's not how work functions.

00:19:18.760 --> 00:19:23.420
 And if we're being honest, it was before digital probably because people work late and so on.

00:19:23.500 --> 00:19:28.920
 But, um, it's not this modular thing where it's like, Oh, now I retired to the den and

00:19:28.920 --> 00:19:31.220
 put on my cardigan for family time.

00:19:31.220 --> 00:19:33.300
 It's like, no, that's not how life works.

00:19:33.540 --> 00:19:37.340
 And so I found, and again, this is a conversation.

00:19:37.500 --> 00:19:38.580
 Every family is different.

00:19:38.860 --> 00:19:40.500
 So every family is different.

00:19:40.500 --> 00:19:46.740
 My conversation with my wife around this has been sometimes it's more stressful not to

00:19:46.740 --> 00:19:53.820
 do the work at the time and to put it off in the name of family time when I'm distracted

00:19:53.820 --> 00:19:55.280
 or not focused on it.

00:19:55.360 --> 00:19:58.260
 Sometimes it's better to take the 15 minutes to send the email.

00:19:58.820 --> 00:20:02.320
 Sometimes it's better to take the 30 minutes to edit the draft.

00:20:02.560 --> 00:20:07.540
 Sometimes it's better to take the phone call or to do that, even though you're off, because

00:20:07.540 --> 00:20:09.880
 you're not actually off, right?

00:20:09.960 --> 00:20:15.800
 You, you might not actively be working, but you're not engaged and present where you want

00:20:15.800 --> 00:20:16.180
 to be.

00:20:17.020 --> 00:20:19.860
 And we've been focusing on navigating.

00:20:19.980 --> 00:20:20.900
 How does that work?

00:20:20.900 --> 00:20:25.840
 And it all comes from like setting those personal boundaries and figuring out what those are

00:20:25.840 --> 00:20:26.400
 for you.

00:20:27.080 --> 00:20:27.100
 Awesome.

00:20:27.200 --> 00:20:29.640
 Well, let me get a little, let me get a little personal here with this.

00:20:30.240 --> 00:20:37.360
 Like what, so your, your digital and your, your pastoral care, nothing about you is nine

00:20:37.360 --> 00:20:42.360
 to five, like the pastoral care explosions to your point, that's going to happen nine o'clock

00:20:42.360 --> 00:20:45.320
 at night, 11 o'clock at night, you're getting the emergency calls.

00:20:45.320 --> 00:20:50.560
 And then your, your, your membership, the membership's a bad word, but the people who

00:20:50.560 --> 00:20:54.940
 you're engaging with, with the church in the digital space is different time zones, different

00:20:54.940 --> 00:21:00.100
 lives, utilizing digital tools that has less pressure and, and more subtlety of connection.

00:21:00.460 --> 00:21:03.540
 Like at a personal level for you, what are, what are your boundaries?

00:21:03.540 --> 00:21:08.880
 Like, how are you protecting yourself in seasons like this, even mid post COVID?

00:21:08.880 --> 00:21:15.720
 What's been funny is that I violated like the biggest rule that we had for pastoral care

00:21:15.720 --> 00:21:18.240
 and it actually has helped a ton.

00:21:18.680 --> 00:21:19.540
 Oh, this is interesting.

00:21:19.740 --> 00:21:20.020
 Yeah.

00:21:20.220 --> 00:21:24.880
 Well, the thing that I, I shouldn't say the biggest rule, like nothing illegal, but the

00:21:24.880 --> 00:21:28.180
 thing that I was told at the beginning, and the thing that I was told at the beginning is

00:21:28.180 --> 00:21:32.240
 don't give people your phone number, your direct phone number.

00:21:32.620 --> 00:21:37.640
 And it's like, we have a Google voice line, we have all these tools and it's just, it's

00:21:37.640 --> 00:21:38.300
 easier that way.

00:21:38.360 --> 00:21:40.440
 And that way you don't have people that are, you know, whatever.

00:21:41.160 --> 00:21:46.300
 Once I started giving people my personal number, it allowed me to have a more accountable

00:21:46.300 --> 00:21:50.820
 conversation because I'm like, Hey, this is my personal number.

00:21:50.980 --> 00:21:53.620
 And if I'm available, I will talk to you.

00:21:53.720 --> 00:21:55.680
 And if I'm not, I won't.

00:21:56.540 --> 00:22:00.560
 And if you text me, I will get back to you as soon as I possibly can.

00:22:00.640 --> 00:22:01.780
 But I have a family too.

00:22:02.520 --> 00:22:04.900
 And my first responsibility is my family.

00:22:05.740 --> 00:22:09.940
 And at first it was a little uncomfortable talking to people in crisis like that, but

00:22:09.940 --> 00:22:14.020
 they've appreciated it so far and people aren't abusing it.

00:22:14.140 --> 00:22:21.340
 I haven't had one person abuse it and because they get it because I'm not going, Hey, here's

00:22:21.340 --> 00:22:21.940
 the church number.

00:22:22.040 --> 00:22:24.160
 Call it whenever I'm going, this is mine.

00:22:24.720 --> 00:22:25.900
 I'm a person.

00:22:26.040 --> 00:22:28.080
 I'm not just this pastor that's out there.

00:22:28.400 --> 00:22:32.740
 Like, you know, you used to, I used to think my kids, like my kids, my teachers slept at

00:22:32.740 --> 00:22:33.100
 school.

00:22:33.600 --> 00:22:33.960
 Right.

00:22:33.980 --> 00:22:37.560
 Like, because you'd see them out in the community and be like, Oh, that's a real person.

00:22:37.560 --> 00:22:42.300
 And it's like, no, like, I think pastors often get that idea that we like live in the

00:22:42.300 --> 00:22:44.560
 church and you roll out the box and open up the door.

00:22:44.580 --> 00:22:46.680
 And then for an hour on Sunday, you work and then go back in.

00:22:46.680 --> 00:22:46.880
 Right.

00:22:47.080 --> 00:22:52.840
 That's kind of how people think of it sometimes, but by making it more human and being like,

00:22:52.940 --> 00:22:54.140
 no, this is my number.

00:22:54.140 --> 00:22:59.700
 And I care about you enough to give you my personal number, but I'm also not going to

00:22:59.700 --> 00:23:01.040
 let you abuse it.

00:23:01.800 --> 00:23:05.160
 And if you, if you message me when I can't, you know, I have, I think I have a text on

00:23:05.160 --> 00:23:09.520
 my phone right now that somebody sent yesterday that was in crisis, but I just didn't have

00:23:09.520 --> 00:23:10.360
 a chance to answer.

00:23:11.160 --> 00:23:13.640
 And it just is what it is.

00:23:13.900 --> 00:23:16.120
 And people get it.

00:23:16.820 --> 00:23:21.660
 I really think trusting people to get that has been really helpful.

00:23:21.800 --> 00:23:26.000
 Now I'll also say our church has a great culture where it's not like one man on the pedestal

00:23:26.000 --> 00:23:28.400
 coming down from the mountain with all of the wisdom.

00:23:28.640 --> 00:23:29.640
 You know, we have a prayer team.

00:23:29.780 --> 00:23:32.380
 We have other folks that help and that culture's help.

00:23:32.520 --> 00:23:37.140
 But by breaking that rule, I really think it's helped with boundaries because I'm setting

00:23:37.140 --> 00:23:40.760
 them up front versus, Hey, you've been calling or texting too much.

00:23:40.840 --> 00:23:44.860
 This is too much, but going, look, I'll answer when I can answer and you get it.

00:23:44.980 --> 00:23:45.340
 Right.

00:23:45.420 --> 00:23:46.320
 And people like, yeah.

00:23:46.400 --> 00:23:50.680
 So one of my guys after marriage program, driving home, everybody's tired.

00:23:50.800 --> 00:23:52.440
 My wife's a theater teacher in high school.

00:23:52.440 --> 00:23:53.880
 And so she just finished her production.

00:23:54.400 --> 00:23:56.040
 And so I'm working late Monday.

00:23:56.220 --> 00:24:02.380
 Anyway, I'm driving home and a guy calls with a crisis and it's like, what do I do?

00:24:02.820 --> 00:24:06.880
 And so I spent my time driving home, talking to him and I'm like, Hey man, I'm home.

00:24:07.000 --> 00:24:08.880
 And so let's talk again tomorrow morning.

00:24:08.980 --> 00:24:09.940
 We'll schedule some time.

00:24:10.520 --> 00:24:11.840
 But are you okay tonight?

00:24:12.080 --> 00:24:12.300
 Yeah.

00:24:12.400 --> 00:24:12.880
 Okay, cool.

00:24:13.220 --> 00:24:15.100
 Well, I'm going to go take care of my family.

00:24:15.160 --> 00:24:17.700
 He's like, Oh yeah, please go take care of your family.

00:24:17.760 --> 00:24:18.580
 I totally understand.

00:24:19.140 --> 00:24:20.820
 And it wasn't off putting to him.

00:24:20.920 --> 00:24:22.940
 We were able to connect the next day and guess what?

00:24:23.320 --> 00:24:24.280
 Everybody was okay.

00:24:24.720 --> 00:24:25.420
 Nobody died.

00:24:26.420 --> 00:24:30.740
 It's hard working when it's spiritually important.

00:24:30.740 --> 00:24:32.640
 It feels like spiritually life or death.

00:24:32.860 --> 00:24:35.020
 It's not literally life or death.

00:24:35.620 --> 00:24:37.200
 We have an important job.

00:24:37.260 --> 00:24:44.300
 But unless somebody might harm themselves or others, it can usually wait until morning or later that week or the next week.

00:24:44.540 --> 00:24:56.420
 You know, one of the things that I've done in this season with COVID, because you're right, like texting, voice conversations, dealing with pastors, helping, you know, support digital pastors.

00:24:56.660 --> 00:24:58.500
 I mean, at this point, literally around the planet.

00:25:00.320 --> 00:25:05.600
 You know, I just, at some point, I was like, man, I don't want to give out my personal cell phone, but I want to engage.

00:25:05.940 --> 00:25:08.460
 And so I created a Google Voice account.

00:25:09.160 --> 00:25:16.800
 And so it's a completely, and that's, if you hear me, you know, 484-324-8724, I have no problem giving that number out on the air.

00:25:17.700 --> 00:25:21.100
 And, but it goes to a Google Voice that I respond to on my phone.

00:25:21.360 --> 00:25:25.280
 And, you know, I mean, I guess I could give the same phone number.

00:25:25.400 --> 00:25:27.620
 Either way, it's a phone number that I'd have to change at some point.

00:25:27.740 --> 00:25:38.940
 But for me, it was like, hey, there's a level of protection here where if it does go south, I don't have to give up a phone number that I've had for 20 years because I've got somebody being abusive on that.

00:25:39.000 --> 00:25:46.020
 I have to give up a Google Voice account, which is, you know, not as painful, even though that number is number four of the church, which is freaking awesome.

00:25:46.020 --> 00:25:47.260
 But that's another conversation.

00:25:47.540 --> 00:25:54.460
 Yeah, well, you're also different because you got internet trolls and stuff like, like, I'm giving, like, I've seen these people in person, right?

00:25:54.480 --> 00:25:59.780
 These are people that live in my area code that I see at the grocery store that are here.

00:25:59.880 --> 00:26:08.900
 Like, I'm not posting it publicly on the internet because there's some crazy folks out there that'll do, that'll, like, figure out your personality and your, so, like, I get that.

00:26:08.980 --> 00:26:10.120
 I totally get that.

00:26:10.160 --> 00:26:12.860
 Just from my little spiritual community here, it's different.

00:26:13.460 --> 00:26:13.860
 I know.

00:26:13.960 --> 00:26:14.900
 I love that.

00:26:14.900 --> 00:26:17.420
 And just, it's a relational tool to be able to connect with.

00:26:17.560 --> 00:26:19.960
 You're not running it through an office phone number.

00:26:20.100 --> 00:26:26.500
 You're giving them the respect and you're respecting them by, hey, here's a personal, here's a direct way to reach me.

00:26:26.560 --> 00:26:27.480
 Here's my direct line.

00:26:27.720 --> 00:26:30.620
 Use it with respect and, you know, we'll respect you back.

00:26:31.140 --> 00:26:31.840
 Love that.

00:26:32.340 --> 00:26:38.120
 How do you, so how do you lead with boundaries?

00:26:38.440 --> 00:26:41.220
 Like, I don't, I'm a, I'll just be honest.

00:26:41.320 --> 00:26:44.640
 I'm probably a borderline workaholic, maybe a recovering workaholic.

00:26:45.420 --> 00:26:52.900
 You know, in my ministry career, I think that, you know, the, and this is, this is before Obama made this, like, not good.

00:26:52.900 --> 00:27:01.120
 But I was averaging 70 hours a week in, in, in, in building on property ministry.

00:27:01.280 --> 00:27:03.620
 You know, I, there was, there was a season of my life.

00:27:03.700 --> 00:27:05.920
 This is, uh, this is unhealthy.

00:27:06.120 --> 00:27:10.460
 And I, and I, I know this and I've recognized this, but like, I would go to work Tuesday morning.

00:27:10.460 --> 00:27:11.700
 I would work Tuesday night.

00:27:11.700 --> 00:27:12.800
 I would work Wednesday.

00:27:13.020 --> 00:27:14.060
 I would work Wednesday night.

00:27:14.120 --> 00:27:15.100
 I'd work Thursday.

00:27:15.660 --> 00:27:16.840
 I'd work Thursday night.

00:27:16.840 --> 00:27:19.420
 And so like, I would take my kids to school Tuesday morning.

00:27:19.420 --> 00:27:30.920
 And then I would see them again Friday morning, because that was just a lot of the, the, the pressure, uh, that was put on these, these situations, especially centered around, you know, ministry.

00:27:30.920 --> 00:27:32.540
 This is, we have to do this.

00:27:32.560 --> 00:27:33.300
 It's for the kingdom.

00:27:33.300 --> 00:27:42.060
 This is the, you know, I mean, you, you, you just, you feel that and it's, you know, as, as professional Christians, we're like almost building our own graves.

00:27:42.360 --> 00:27:57.840
 And so it's, how, how do you, how do you lead as, as a person who has boundaries and, and respects boundaries for, for the employees and for the staff and, and even the volunteers that, that are underneath them?

00:27:58.620 --> 00:28:00.600
 It's hard, right?

00:28:00.600 --> 00:28:10.360
 I, it's hard, um, in a lot of ways, because I too, I mean, I shared my boundary issue of like, I was work, you know, I was working, working until somebody stopped me.

00:28:10.360 --> 00:28:10.840
 Right.

00:28:11.320 --> 00:28:24.960
 And I think leading the, I mean, you do have to model it to a certain degree of taking time off of not always being available of saying the, the dirtiest word in church.

00:28:24.960 --> 00:28:41.260
 You can say any word in church, but no, I mean, no is like a swear word when you're on a church now because, well, it's so easy to spiritualize and go, no, we've been called to go and make disciples of all nations.

00:28:41.260 --> 00:28:43.880
 We've been called to fill in your church's mission statement, right?

00:28:44.200 --> 00:28:46.180
 Of like fully devoted followers of Christ.

00:28:46.280 --> 00:28:48.200
 And it's like, our mission is never done.

00:28:48.780 --> 00:28:49.920
 There's always souls.

00:28:50.040 --> 00:28:51.240
 There's always people hurting.

00:28:51.380 --> 00:28:58.440
 There's all like, we have a mission, a vision of like, it can never be accomplished until Jesus comes back.

00:28:59.020 --> 00:29:08.380
 And so we have this incredible, we could work every single second of our lives and not accomplish the vision of what the church is.

00:29:08.640 --> 00:29:11.480
 And so the pressure to work is insane.

00:29:11.600 --> 00:29:20.220
 And so you have to just, I say you have to, the modeling is important because people are going to watch what you do.

00:29:20.500 --> 00:29:29.820
 And so that's why I've tried to cut back on the 2am emails on the, sometimes the way that it often works for me is that God will like wake me.

00:29:29.820 --> 00:29:34.100
 It feels like God, wake me up at three o'clock in the morning and it's like, oh my gosh, I have all this stuff.

00:29:34.460 --> 00:29:37.460
 And I just write it down and it's like creative projects.

00:29:37.600 --> 00:29:39.520
 And I used to like send it out to people.

00:29:39.520 --> 00:29:46.240
 But one, I realized there was no context and I sounded crazy because we hadn't like discussed it.

00:29:46.540 --> 00:29:48.540
 But two, it's like a little overwhelming.

00:29:48.540 --> 00:29:51.920
 And I'm like, okay, they're going to do what I do, not what I say.

00:29:52.460 --> 00:29:54.280
 And so I can say, take vacation.

00:29:54.280 --> 00:29:56.660
 I can say, don't schedule this meeting.

00:29:56.680 --> 00:29:59.180
 I can say, find these boundaries, but they're going to do what I do.

00:29:59.260 --> 00:30:00.700
 People are going to do what I do.

00:30:01.760 --> 00:30:07.500
 And leading the marriage program has been helpful because we use re-engage, shout out to Watermark, amazing curriculum.

00:30:09.100 --> 00:30:16.920
 And we have these volunteer leaders who are guiding these people through a 16-week curriculum, but they become like mentors and pastors to them.

00:30:17.400 --> 00:30:21.220
 And so they're watching how I handle dealing with people.

00:30:22.000 --> 00:30:28.380
 And do they give up all their free time when they work their 40, 50, 60 hour a week job, plus they're already volunteering?

00:30:28.860 --> 00:30:33.260
 Do they give up another few hours, another day to meet with people?

00:30:33.440 --> 00:30:36.360
 And it's like, how do you teach people to evaluate that?

00:30:37.120 --> 00:30:40.240
 And it's, you have to, you have to model it.

00:30:40.320 --> 00:30:54.540
 And so they know, like my, and again, I'm not saying this because I'm doing it right, Jack, but my leaders know that if they have somebody who's in like crisis and is really struggling, I'll talk to, let me engage with that person.

00:30:54.540 --> 00:30:57.220
 If it's beyond your pay grade, that's kind of a conversation, right?

00:30:57.480 --> 00:31:02.660
 If you can't handle this and it's a detriment to the other people, let me handle it.

00:31:02.900 --> 00:31:09.200
 But they hold that very tightly because they don't want to pass on something for somebody that they care about.

00:31:09.980 --> 00:31:17.020
 And so boundaries is, is the right conversation to have and modeling it.

00:31:17.120 --> 00:31:22.880
 So not sending that email, not talking to people at any hour of time, letting them know that you need help.

00:31:22.900 --> 00:31:27.520
 Because the other thing in ministry that we get, I personally, I'll speak to myself.

00:31:27.600 --> 00:31:28.920
 I won't speak to anybody else.

00:31:28.920 --> 00:31:37.760
 Although I imagine it applies to people asking our volunteers for help and showing people that we're human of like, I can't do this.

00:31:37.980 --> 00:31:39.240
 This is too much.

00:31:39.460 --> 00:31:40.880
 Hey, I'm not going to be at that meeting.

00:31:41.260 --> 00:31:43.440
 Hey, you know, my kids have this appointment.

00:31:43.700 --> 00:31:44.780
 I need to go.

00:31:44.980 --> 00:31:50.160
 And I always expected them to be like, oh, what a disappointing church leader.

00:31:50.600 --> 00:31:51.980
 You just can't hack it.

00:31:52.040 --> 00:31:53.240
 You can't get the job done.

00:31:53.560 --> 00:31:59.060
 But instead, they were, they responded with empathy and kindness and stepping up in their leadership.

00:32:00.160 --> 00:32:03.180
 And so that human side is kind of important.

00:32:04.340 --> 00:32:05.640
 It's really important.

00:32:05.940 --> 00:32:10.400
 And so just try, I mean, trying to model it and even speaking the idea that there are boundaries.

00:32:11.400 --> 00:32:14.200
 And let me, okay, Jeff, I'm about to go off.

00:32:14.440 --> 00:32:14.660
 All right.

00:32:14.700 --> 00:32:16.880
 I'm going to try to keep it a little tight.

00:32:18.440 --> 00:32:23.100
 But building a culture that doesn't chew people up and spit them out.

00:32:24.200 --> 00:32:29.880
 And something that I try to remind my volunteer leaders of, especially, and staff leaders, the same thing.

00:32:30.320 --> 00:32:33.600
 I care about you even if you're not volunteering right now.

00:32:34.440 --> 00:32:37.780
 I care about you if you don't have this role.

00:32:37.940 --> 00:32:41.420
 Even if you produce nothing, I still care about you.

00:32:41.500 --> 00:32:42.780
 And you're still part of this community.

00:32:43.980 --> 00:32:53.820
 And I hope that message is sinking in and people are going, okay, I can set boundaries and not be afraid that I'm slacking.

00:32:54.100 --> 00:33:00.420
 Yeah, so, I mean, really in that season, and this is the tension that I've felt as a leader.

00:33:00.960 --> 00:33:06.060
 I've got someone that is comfortable blurring the margins.

00:33:06.820 --> 00:33:09.520
 I've got someone that's, hey, you know what?

00:33:09.720 --> 00:33:11.760
 I mean, like, I was this type of employee.

00:33:11.940 --> 00:33:15.440
 Like, I have no problem giving 55, maybe even 60.

00:33:16.480 --> 00:33:27.040
 But when it became, like, 70, 80, 90, when the weight of that, and I've worked in churches that were like, you know, give me more, give me more, give me more.

00:33:27.560 --> 00:33:30.940
 I also worked with churches that are like, dude, 60 is too much.

00:33:30.980 --> 00:33:31.820
 You need to be at 45.

00:33:32.920 --> 00:33:39.880
 And so, what is that tension of, you know, as a leader, I'm just curious.

00:33:40.040 --> 00:33:42.520
 It's not necessarily how I thought the conversation was going, but it's a good conversation.

00:33:42.960 --> 00:33:56.820
 How much are we pushing an employee, a staff person to expand where their boundaries are or even cut back someone that wants to run?

00:33:56.820 --> 00:34:02.900
 Maybe you do have someone, you know, like me, that's comfortable to 60, that's like, no, man, you operate better at 47.5.

00:34:03.520 --> 00:34:18.340
 Like, talk to me a little bit about maybe when to pull the trigger to help someone better, I don't know, legitimize how much they're working or regulate how much they're putting in to create healthy boundaries.

00:34:18.800 --> 00:34:24.740
 Yeah, well, it's a great question because we want to treat everyone well, but that doesn't mean treating everyone the same.

00:34:25.240 --> 00:34:41.960
 And so, our executive team talks about this because, guess what, I have a six-year-old and a 10-year-old, but there's a woman on our executive team that's not married, that's in her 70s, and there's a, you know, our lead pastor, his kids are graduated and out of school, and they have different capacities.

00:34:42.860 --> 00:34:53.740
 They have different capacities than I do, and seasonality is something, and it goes back to some of the discussion earlier, that the digital has seemingly, like, the modern world has eliminated seasonality.

00:34:54.360 --> 00:35:00.640
 And so, television season used to be these, like, two blocks of time, that was it, no reruns during the summer.

00:35:00.760 --> 00:35:04.420
 Or when you went to the grocery store, they don't have certain fruit because it's not in season.

00:35:05.060 --> 00:35:08.360
 But we've eliminated this idea of seasonality from our thinking.

00:35:08.680 --> 00:35:11.960
 When it comes to people's schedules, seasonality is a big deal.

00:35:12.620 --> 00:35:19.840
 Like, so many, I referred to my marriage program leaders before, so many of them are retired, and they have grandkids.

00:35:20.360 --> 00:35:21.260
 They don't have kids.

00:35:21.980 --> 00:35:25.080
 And they don't have a job, and they're like, give me something to do.

00:35:25.320 --> 00:35:27.460
 I can do this for 50 hours a week.

00:35:27.780 --> 00:35:29.280
 They're fired up about it.

00:35:29.440 --> 00:35:32.500
 And I'm thinking of them like I'm thinking of people like myself.

00:35:32.740 --> 00:35:34.540
 You know, I'm 39, got two small kids.

00:35:34.700 --> 00:35:43.340
 And so I'm going, okay, if you guys can make it on Monday night a little early, that would be, and they're like, yes, we'll be there at 9 a.m.

00:35:43.340 --> 00:35:44.380
 And we'll work the whole day.

00:35:44.820 --> 00:35:46.980
 Like, let us, let us go.

00:35:47.300 --> 00:35:50.040
 And, you know, it's similar, different people in different situations.

00:35:50.260 --> 00:35:57.620
 And so then there's the other part of it where you have folks who are going through a physical or mental health crisis.

00:35:59.020 --> 00:36:04.940
 And you have to be able to go, 10 hours was too much this week.

00:36:05.620 --> 00:36:11.760
 You need to step away from this because you're not helping yourself or anybody else.

00:36:12.440 --> 00:36:17.420
 And so I've tried to embrace this idea of seasonality, of understanding the individual and where they are.

00:36:17.720 --> 00:36:30.140
 And because there are, and then also having the self-awareness to the hardest thing to do because I have, you know, because I work with people who don't have kids at home.

00:36:30.600 --> 00:36:35.660
 Or even some, you know, like I mentioned, one of the women, Dr. Yolanda Lopez, amazing woman, incredible.

00:36:36.260 --> 00:36:38.260
 She's like the Oracle from The Matrix, actually.

00:36:39.300 --> 00:36:40.600
 But she's not married.

00:36:40.980 --> 00:36:44.180
 And so, I mean, she works her butt off.

00:36:44.260 --> 00:36:45.580
 She outworks all of us.

00:36:46.060 --> 00:36:50.060
 This woman who's a little bit older and, well, but she's not tending to a marriage.

00:36:50.160 --> 00:36:51.600
 She's not doing these kind of things.

00:36:51.620 --> 00:36:53.580
 And it's like Paul going, hey, it's better not to be married.

00:36:54.280 --> 00:37:01.220
 And so, the hardest part of self-awareness is me not taking my identity from, I got to keep up.

00:37:01.560 --> 00:37:02.160
 I got to keep up.

00:37:02.300 --> 00:37:02.940
 I got to work 60.

00:37:03.000 --> 00:37:03.680
 I got to work 70.

00:37:04.260 --> 00:37:05.660
 Because I'm the hardest worker, right?

00:37:05.720 --> 00:37:11.020
 That's got to be like, there's a thing that you get in your identity, or at least I did, of like, I got to keep up.

00:37:11.080 --> 00:37:11.640
 I got to keep up.

00:37:11.740 --> 00:37:13.240
 Okay, this is what they're modeling.

00:37:13.600 --> 00:37:15.760
 So, okay, my senior leader is modeling this way.

00:37:15.820 --> 00:37:16.200
 I got to go.

00:37:16.260 --> 00:37:16.660
 I got to go.

00:37:17.140 --> 00:37:18.680
 But going, my situation is different.

00:37:19.200 --> 00:37:20.120
 And I have kids.

00:37:20.460 --> 00:37:25.420
 And so, we've built the kind of relationship where I can go, hey, man, I can't come into the office today.

00:37:25.500 --> 00:37:26.220
 My kid is sick.

00:37:27.060 --> 00:37:28.120
 And my wife's a teacher.

00:37:28.840 --> 00:37:30.260
 And he's like, okay, cool.

00:37:30.380 --> 00:37:31.080
 Totally understand.

00:37:31.720 --> 00:37:33.680
 And it's not a big deal.

00:37:33.800 --> 00:37:36.760
 Or when I go, I can only do one night.

00:37:38.060 --> 00:37:39.800
 Because as you know, ministry, right?

00:37:39.840 --> 00:37:42.480
 It's like, it would be great if we could do it all during our nine to five.

00:37:42.480 --> 00:37:44.760
 But everybody else is working during the day.

00:37:45.340 --> 00:37:47.960
 So, we have to do our ministry after when other people are working.

00:37:48.040 --> 00:37:49.120
 Christmas is the same thing.

00:37:49.440 --> 00:37:50.520
 Hey, it's Christmas vacation.

00:37:50.700 --> 00:37:51.280
 Not for me.

00:37:52.040 --> 00:37:54.520
 This is one of our busiest times.

00:37:55.500 --> 00:38:00.900
 And so, we have to, like, I had to be brave enough.

00:38:01.160 --> 00:38:02.560
 And for me, it was vulnerability.

00:38:03.040 --> 00:38:05.140
 If we go to Brene Brown and some of that stuff.

00:38:05.220 --> 00:38:10.900
 For me, it was vulnerability of being able to go, I can only work one night.

00:38:11.680 --> 00:38:14.660
 And that's a boundary for my family and I.

00:38:15.440 --> 00:38:18.860
 And, you know, and special stuff happens all the time.

00:38:18.940 --> 00:38:20.840
 Oh, we're having our special monthly worship service.

00:38:20.920 --> 00:38:22.120
 Yeah, I can give two nights that week.

00:38:22.460 --> 00:38:24.780
 Or something goes wrong and I have to fill in for somebody.

00:38:24.780 --> 00:38:25.860
 Yeah, I can do that.

00:38:25.960 --> 00:38:27.780
 But that's the exception, not the rule.

00:38:28.520 --> 00:38:29.500
 And the vulnerability.

00:38:30.240 --> 00:38:35.800
 The vulnerability to just know your own limits is really hard to face.

00:38:35.880 --> 00:38:37.220
 That's been the hardest part for me.

00:38:37.540 --> 00:38:40.320
 It's not the, it's not anything else that we've talked about.

00:38:40.760 --> 00:38:42.840
 It's understanding that I have limits.

00:38:42.840 --> 00:38:52.040
 And that my personal God journey has been showing me my pride in saying yes to everything and my inability to say no.

00:38:53.240 --> 00:38:54.460
 It's the pride.

00:38:55.100 --> 00:38:56.880
 God, God has convicted me in that.

00:38:57.380 --> 00:39:00.740
 That, I mean, and that even gets just to get back to the self-awareness.

00:39:01.060 --> 00:39:05.520
 Like, like for me, that's just, that's a, that's a big confession hour here on the show.

00:39:05.580 --> 00:39:10.260
 Like that's, that's a big part of, of me is just the self-awareness.

00:39:10.840 --> 00:39:15.600
 I'm type A, I'm, I'm a borderline control freak when, when I'm, when I'm not in check.

00:39:15.920 --> 00:39:17.360
 Uh, I work way too much.

00:39:17.480 --> 00:39:18.860
 My priorities are awful.

00:39:19.360 --> 00:39:30.440
 Uh, and so self-awareness has been for me, let me surround myself with people who can keep me in check, who can call my crap on me, uh, who can say, hey, how many hours are you working this week?

00:39:30.440 --> 00:39:34.740
 And, and start to, you know, have other eyes on this.

00:39:34.740 --> 00:39:41.460
 And, and these are people that I respect that I have to listen to because I told them, hey, call my crap on me when, when, when it's time.

00:39:41.460 --> 00:39:48.500
 And so, you know, even start, I love the fact, if you're listening to the podcast, John's head is bobbing up and down in a yes fashion.

00:39:48.500 --> 00:39:50.340
 Cause he, he agrees with that very well.

00:39:50.700 --> 00:39:57.800
 Um, you know, but that's really, that's, that's, that's the heart of, of just being self-aware as a leader for who you are.

00:39:57.880 --> 00:39:59.420
 Now, let me turn the corner here.

00:39:59.800 --> 00:40:11.020
 Let's, let's say I, cause I've been this guy too, uh, working on a church staff where the expectations are ridiculous, where it's 90, a hundred.

00:40:11.460 --> 00:40:14.700
 Hours plus, uh, based on projects.

00:40:15.100 --> 00:40:17.220
 And it's funny, you said the seasonal language.

00:40:17.220 --> 00:40:20.660
 That was my, that was my go-to back in the day.

00:40:20.860 --> 00:40:29.640
 It's, you know what I can give, you know, 80 hours, 90 hours a week for, I can work three, four or five nights for a couple of weeks, two, three weeks in a row.

00:40:29.640 --> 00:40:30.800
 It's just for a season.

00:40:31.020 --> 00:40:33.740
 You know what, we were transitioning a new guy off staff.

00:40:33.920 --> 00:40:35.380
 We haven't hired the new one.

00:40:35.700 --> 00:40:36.660
 I got a double dip.

00:40:36.880 --> 00:40:37.920
 It's just for a season.

00:40:38.460 --> 00:40:42.760
 Um, you know, and, and that just for a season is not as short as it's supposed to be.

00:40:42.860 --> 00:40:47.900
 And those seasons come more frequent than, uh, than anticipated.

00:40:48.140 --> 00:40:54.140
 Uh, the, the gaps between them are not nearly as long as you think they are.

00:40:54.220 --> 00:40:55.140
 At least they weren't for me.

00:40:55.400 --> 00:41:16.460
 And so, you know, John, how do I, how do I respond as a, as an employee, as a, maybe even a high level volunteer that has unreasonable expectations, that has, uh, no lack of, of respect for, or no respect for boundaries coming from the, the leaders and the pastors and, and those that are over me.

00:41:16.520 --> 00:41:20.200
 What, what, how, how do I deal with someone who doesn't respect boundaries?

00:41:20.540 --> 00:41:21.900
 Yeah, that's a great question.

00:41:21.900 --> 00:41:27.860
 And you make a great point about seasonality because we can always find a reason for a season, uh, in ministry.

00:41:27.980 --> 00:41:28.820
 There's always a change.

00:41:28.880 --> 00:41:29.780
 Oh, we're shorthanded here.

00:41:29.880 --> 00:41:30.460
 I can do this.

00:41:30.720 --> 00:41:37.800
 Um, when you have somebody that doesn't respect boundaries, uh, man, and there are people in this world that are like that, man.

00:41:37.980 --> 00:41:42.020
 And that it's, it's brutal when we meet those folks.

00:41:42.220 --> 00:41:51.700
 And so, uh, folks that don't respect boundaries, I think they either have to, because these kinds of boundaries are cultural.

00:41:52.180 --> 00:42:02.120
 And so they either have to get on board with it or they can't be in the culture, uh, because one person doing that messes stuff up for everybody.

00:42:02.660 --> 00:42:05.800
 And so let's, you know, let's take another kind of issue.

00:42:05.940 --> 00:42:15.620
 Like it's easy to treat boundaries as less important when it relates to our time as it is to our, let's say the integrity of our marriage.

00:42:16.080 --> 00:42:26.780
 If you had a volunteer who continually pushed the boundaries of, you know, coming onto you, making passes at you, saying things like that, it wouldn't be an issue to go, Hey, this is unacceptable.

00:42:28.780 --> 00:42:33.600
 And we would let that person go ask them to, Hey, you got to stop this or you can't be here.

00:42:34.060 --> 00:42:45.500
 But when the same person violates boundaries of our personal time and our time with our spouse, our time with our kids, our time, our time for ourselves, our time with God, like spending time with Jesus on our own.

00:42:45.760 --> 00:42:47.980
 When somebody violates that, it's like, ah, okay.

00:42:48.280 --> 00:42:49.380
 It's, uh, it's fine.

00:42:49.460 --> 00:42:49.840
 It's okay.

00:42:49.940 --> 00:42:50.340
 It's okay.

00:42:50.400 --> 00:42:51.220
 This is a good volunteer.

00:42:51.340 --> 00:42:51.680
 It's okay.

00:42:51.760 --> 00:42:52.180
 It's okay.

00:42:52.520 --> 00:42:52.920
 It's okay.

00:42:52.980 --> 00:42:53.640
 We'll find a way.

00:42:53.640 --> 00:43:03.840
 But when somebody is pressing against the boundaries of the culture that you're trying to build, they either have to get on the bus or stay at the bus stop like that.

00:43:04.080 --> 00:43:07.520
 It's, you know, uh, I was at something.

00:43:07.640 --> 00:43:08.580
 I forget who said it.

00:43:08.660 --> 00:43:14.000
 Gosh, I'm sure somebody really smart said it, but we don't get what we want as leaders.

00:43:14.000 --> 00:43:15.120
 We get what we tolerate.

00:43:16.340 --> 00:43:21.740
 And in terms of performance and yeah, we don't get what we want.

00:43:21.800 --> 00:43:22.540
 We get what we tolerate.

00:43:23.160 --> 00:43:36.700
 And when you just have somebody who's continually pushing boundaries and we keep them on the team, like we're going to get that and they're going to change the culture instead of going, no, this culture is not right for you.

00:43:36.700 --> 00:43:51.920
 You're going to have to, you're going to have to stop doing these specific behaviors or you can't serve or you can't be a part of the staff team or, and if it's somebody that's over you, let me say this, you can lead up to the best of your ability.

00:43:51.920 --> 00:43:55.160
 But at some point you might be the person that's going against the culture.

00:43:55.280 --> 00:43:56.820
 The culture might be overwork.

00:43:57.580 --> 00:44:01.720
 The culture might be, you know, 60, 70, 80, 90 hour weeks.

00:44:02.000 --> 00:44:14.040
 And if you're in a culture like that and it's, it's around you completely, you're the outlier and you might have to come to grips with the idea that you might have to leave because it's hard to change a culture like that.

00:44:14.340 --> 00:44:15.960
 It's really difficult.

00:44:16.080 --> 00:44:16.780
 It's possible.

00:44:16.780 --> 00:44:19.420
 And man, God does amazing things all the time.

00:44:19.960 --> 00:44:25.380
 But if you're in a culture like that, recognizing it and going, this isn't going to get any better.

00:44:25.700 --> 00:44:29.860
 At some point you have to be like, this isn't, this isn't going to change.

00:44:30.320 --> 00:44:31.700
 And I have to accept that.

00:44:32.080 --> 00:44:32.180
 Yeah.

00:44:32.300 --> 00:44:35.200
 No, those are, that's a hard truth sometime.

00:44:35.200 --> 00:44:47.960
 You know, like I, I just, even, even some of the employees that I've, I've led in my life, it's, um, yeah, the things that you're asking for the organization to do, they're not going to do.

00:44:48.440 --> 00:45:01.900
 And as, as much as you want to work here, maybe you don't need to work here because you're, what you're wanting to do is you're trying to drive the organization culturally in a place that it's not going to go.

00:45:01.900 --> 00:45:10.280
 And, and as much as, and what's, what's interesting in that situation, I mean, that's, that's really when unhealthy starts, uh, because it gets, it gets toxic.

00:45:10.520 --> 00:45:24.520
 It gets more towards, um, you know, uh, the, the different sides fighting against each other, the, uh, the verbal, the, um, you know, the passive aggressivity, the, Hey, I'm clocking out.

00:45:24.640 --> 00:45:29.140
 And this is, this is another thing that I wanted to get to in a little bit, but like, just that I'm, I'm done at 40.

00:45:29.200 --> 00:45:36.340
 There's nothing else that I, that you, that I can do and leaving projects open, disconnecting socially from others.

00:45:36.340 --> 00:45:48.240
 Like, um, I, I, I did not respect this until my forties, uh, you know, in my twenties and in my thirties, I thought I have a job and I have to keep this job.

00:45:48.360 --> 00:45:57.000
 And in my forties, I realized I need the job that works for me, that fits my needs, not just gives me a paycheck.

00:45:57.380 --> 00:46:10.620
 And when I, when I, in my forties, when I go and look for places that I fit, oh my gosh, it's so much fun to work in environments where you fit as opposed to just working someplace where you feel stuck to get a paycheck.

00:46:10.620 --> 00:46:20.720
 So I, I can, I, the mental capacity to be in an environment where you fit as opposed to being the square peg in the round hole is a completely different thing.

00:46:20.720 --> 00:46:27.420
 So a lot of, a lot of wisdom right there, John, that was, it's incredible, incredible change.

00:46:27.560 --> 00:46:29.240
 Hey, let, let me, let me ask this.

00:46:29.840 --> 00:46:40.480
 So the tension that I feel as a leader and, uh, and I want to shift into some Christmas stuff here in a second, but the tension that I feel, and even just getting back to like that, the 40 hour employee, um,

00:46:40.480 --> 00:46:48.340
 you know, the, the, the employee as a leader that, that says, Hey, or as a leader, the employee that, that is like, Hey, you know what?

00:46:48.380 --> 00:46:57.400
 It's, it's five o'clock I'm done and walks away, leaves an unproject, an uncompleted project done, um, is, is always late in connecting up.

00:46:57.640 --> 00:47:03.360
 You know, sometimes I feel like, and correct me if I'm wrong, legitimately humbly asking this question.

00:47:03.580 --> 00:47:07.420
 Sometimes I feel like boundaries are an excuse for crappy work.

00:47:08.060 --> 00:47:13.500
 Um, and that, you know, I may, it may not be, you know, like I, dude, I don't want 57 hours.

00:47:13.620 --> 00:47:25.740
 I don't want you to work 98 hours, but if it's going to take 42 to get this thing done on time so that it's effective for the weekend, if it's effective for the small group, if it's effective, whatever the church case is, give me the extra time, man.

00:47:25.740 --> 00:47:31.520
 Like, I want you to, to own the, uh, the ministry, not the time clock.

00:47:31.860 --> 00:47:36.120
 Like what, what is that balance, John, as a leader, help me here.

00:47:36.460 --> 00:47:39.480
 Yo, man, I love it because there are definitely those people too.

00:47:39.580 --> 00:47:41.760
 That'll just be like, I'm out.

00:47:41.880 --> 00:47:43.200
 Doesn't matter if the work is done.

00:47:43.740 --> 00:47:49.380
 Um, those people are so difficult to work with, but that's a, that's a mission like on board issue.

00:47:49.960 --> 00:47:53.260
 Um, because to your point and you said it, you, you were right there.

00:47:53.480 --> 00:47:59.060
 If it takes you, if your work is not getting done in the time that you have, right.

00:47:59.060 --> 00:48:06.380
 If it's 40 hours and you're like a 40 hour purist, I'm just working 40 hours and it takes you more than 40 hours to get your job done.

00:48:06.420 --> 00:48:07.480
 You're not in the right role.

00:48:09.100 --> 00:48:17.000
 And you can even approach it from a compassionate perspective of, Hey, and this is, you know, I, I tend to avoid confrontation.

00:48:17.060 --> 00:48:18.400
 So go with me on this one.

00:48:18.720 --> 00:48:26.880
 You can approach it from a compassionate perspective of going like, Hey, I feel like we're not serving you well and that we've given you a job that it takes you more than 40 hours to do.

00:48:27.640 --> 00:48:29.280
 And this isn't a good fit for you.

00:48:29.340 --> 00:48:31.260
 I can't imagine how stressful that would be, right?

00:48:31.660 --> 00:48:34.160
 That you don't have enough time to do the job that you need to do.

00:48:34.220 --> 00:48:35.320
 Let's talk about transition.

00:48:36.020 --> 00:48:40.080
 Let's talk about a different role because the hardest part about the church.

00:48:40.080 --> 00:48:46.980
 And now we're getting into the 501c3 organization versus the spiritual community and the spiritual community.

00:48:46.980 --> 00:48:48.040
 You want to care for everybody.

00:48:48.040 --> 00:48:54.300
 And, you know, I'm overly simplifying, but it's kumbaya, happy, lovey, like Jesus accepted everybody.

00:48:54.540 --> 00:48:59.500
 The 501c3 organization has just regular workplace stuff that you deal with.

00:49:00.220 --> 00:49:03.360
 And part of it is job descriptions and stuff like this.

00:49:03.500 --> 00:49:09.300
 And so when you have that person that is not getting the job done, that's just not okay.

00:49:09.800 --> 00:49:14.980
 And if they present it as a boundaries thing, it's like, okay, cool.

00:49:14.980 --> 00:49:16.480
 Then you're not in the right role.

00:49:16.480 --> 00:49:20.820
 If your boundaries are to this point and people are using it as an excuse.

00:49:20.940 --> 00:49:26.400
 We talk in our organization all the time about we have PTO limits.

00:49:26.640 --> 00:49:33.240
 The people we're most happy with, we can give them unlimited personal time off.

00:49:33.780 --> 00:49:35.680
 It's not for those people.

00:49:35.780 --> 00:49:37.540
 It's for people who would take advantage of it.

00:49:38.260 --> 00:49:46.680
 And this is kind of one of those things of people will doing the minimum for the work or not getting the job done.

00:49:46.780 --> 00:49:48.300
 The reality is the job's got to get done.

00:49:48.380 --> 00:49:51.340
 And it doesn't matter who you are.

00:49:51.400 --> 00:49:52.580
 It doesn't matter what your role is.

00:49:52.600 --> 00:49:53.620
 It's just got to get done.

00:49:54.480 --> 00:49:58.200
 And again, it goes a little bit back to culture of like, dude, we're about the mission.

00:49:58.560 --> 00:50:00.080
 We're about what we're doing here.

00:50:00.120 --> 00:50:12.880
 And when you don't get this done and, you know, if you're, if you're really, if I'm really dialed in, I can do this of like, when you don't get this done, this affects this and that affects that and that affects that.

00:50:12.960 --> 00:50:16.980
 And then that affects what happens with person X getting baptized, right?

00:50:17.000 --> 00:50:21.220
 We don't get, you follow the vision chain down the line of where you fit into the thing.

00:50:21.600 --> 00:50:23.360
 And it's like, we got to get this done.

00:50:23.760 --> 00:50:32.640
 And so it allows you to evaluate, you can evaluate it from an empathetic perspective of if you don't have enough time to get your job done, you're not in the right role.

00:50:33.220 --> 00:50:36.720
 And sometimes people need to transition off the team because of that.

00:50:37.020 --> 00:50:40.520
 As much as that kind of stinks, it's often necessary.

00:50:40.860 --> 00:50:41.300
 Yeah.

00:50:41.540 --> 00:50:51.760
 And that full circle back around to the, you know, go to the place where you fit, where you're happy, where there's, there's cultural alignment towards that.

00:50:51.880 --> 00:50:53.520
 There's some really good truth there.

00:50:53.760 --> 00:50:55.500
 Well, Hey, it's, it's Christmas week.

00:50:55.800 --> 00:50:58.300
 Um, and so, so let's get a little, little practical.

00:50:58.880 --> 00:51:02.880
 Um, Christmas is, is Christmas is on a, on a Monday this year.

00:51:02.880 --> 00:51:04.800
 Like Christmas Eve is, is Sunday.

00:51:04.880 --> 00:51:05.420
 Like, right.

00:51:05.440 --> 00:51:08.720
 Is that, is that, was that where it's, I'm out of the church circle.

00:51:08.720 --> 00:51:10.140
 I don't even know what the calendar is.

00:51:10.140 --> 00:51:11.520
 Like, I don't, I don't work at a church staff.

00:51:11.580 --> 00:51:12.680
 It's low, low stress for me.

00:51:12.820 --> 00:51:13.400
 Talk to me.

00:51:13.500 --> 00:51:15.600
 What, what, how, how do we find peace this week?

00:51:15.620 --> 00:51:15.860
 Yeah.

00:51:15.960 --> 00:51:17.100
 It'll work out.

00:51:17.220 --> 00:51:17.880
 I'll show up.

00:51:17.900 --> 00:51:18.720
 I'll do what I'm supposed to.

00:51:18.780 --> 00:51:19.360
 It's, it's fine.

00:51:19.440 --> 00:51:19.620
 Yeah.

00:51:19.660 --> 00:51:20.500
 You're like, who cares?

00:51:20.660 --> 00:51:22.060
 Life is churches so much.

00:51:22.120 --> 00:51:22.840
 I want to tell this.

00:51:22.880 --> 00:51:23.260
 I'm sorry.

00:51:23.360 --> 00:51:27.380
 I just, I want to church is so much more fun as a volunteer.

00:51:27.860 --> 00:51:31.280
 Like I, I cannot overstate this enough.

00:51:31.800 --> 00:51:40.080
 Uh, just the, the, the stress that I would carry any given week in, in carrying, uh, I

00:51:40.080 --> 00:51:41.060
 got to care for souls.

00:51:41.060 --> 00:51:42.280
 I got to meet these deadlines.

00:51:42.280 --> 00:51:43.320
 I got to do these projects.

00:51:43.320 --> 00:51:48.880
 Like I have that in, in my work life, uh, and, and, and I manage it, but when I go to

00:51:48.880 --> 00:51:57.700
 church, oh my gosh, it is such a releasing, happy, much more spiritual moment because when

00:51:57.700 --> 00:52:02.840
 I'm in the house of God, when I'm worshiping, which is ironically, it's a movie theater with

00:52:02.840 --> 00:52:04.020
 a church that I go to.

00:52:04.020 --> 00:52:07.720
 It's a set up, it's a set up, tear down when I'm in that movie theater, the same movie theater

00:52:07.720 --> 00:52:10.480
 that I'll see Shang-Chi and all these movies.

00:52:10.740 --> 00:52:11.700
 Oh my gosh.

00:52:11.700 --> 00:52:14.320
 It's a spiritual moment in church.

00:52:14.700 --> 00:52:18.000
 I'm able to connect at a level because I'm not carrying.

00:52:18.240 --> 00:52:24.200
 And this just even gets back to recognize the cultural fit and, and, and find a way to

00:52:24.200 --> 00:52:28.800
 do that because it, not only does it block your time, but it blocks your spirit.

00:52:28.960 --> 00:52:32.060
 It blocks you from being able to connect at a spiritual way.

00:52:32.340 --> 00:52:35.140
 Uh, and so, oh my gosh, I, I can speak that all day long.

00:52:35.140 --> 00:52:40.160
 The question that I wanted to ask you, John, how do we find peace?

00:52:40.520 --> 00:52:42.620
 How do we find, uh, boundaries?

00:52:42.840 --> 00:52:47.840
 How do we find a break in this Christmas season, this literal week?

00:52:47.960 --> 00:52:48.860
 Give me something practical.

00:52:49.280 --> 00:52:50.680
 Yeah, that was a great sermon, man.

00:52:50.720 --> 00:52:54.780
 I feel that because if you work at a church and you're listening to this, ask yourself when

00:52:54.780 --> 00:52:58.760
 was the last time you went to church and it's, it's probably been a hot minute.

00:52:58.960 --> 00:53:00.420
 It's probably been a hot minute.

00:53:00.740 --> 00:53:04.360
 When's the last time you sat with your spouse and went to church?

00:53:05.140 --> 00:53:08.520
 I mean, decades for me, uh, to be honest, go ahead.

00:53:08.640 --> 00:53:09.260
 Talk to me, John.

00:53:09.560 --> 00:53:09.800
 Yeah.

00:53:09.900 --> 00:53:12.500
 I mean, I, I, I convicted.

00:53:13.120 --> 00:53:14.840
 Oh, yeah.

00:53:15.060 --> 00:53:15.740
 Ooh, Lord.

00:53:15.960 --> 00:53:22.180
 Uh, I think something practical this week that would be a good thing is to check in with

00:53:22.180 --> 00:53:28.760
 your closest people in advance and talk like really logistically.

00:53:28.760 --> 00:53:30.980
 Again, I'm not a detail oriented person.

00:53:31.120 --> 00:53:34.140
 It drives my wife crazy because I can kind of go on vagaries.

00:53:34.540 --> 00:53:36.800
 And it's be like, oh yeah, I'm working Christmas Eve.

00:53:36.920 --> 00:53:37.080
 Okay.

00:53:37.120 --> 00:53:38.040
 What does that mean?

00:53:38.660 --> 00:53:38.880
 Right.

00:53:38.920 --> 00:53:40.140
 We do a Christmas Eve service.

00:53:40.260 --> 00:53:41.500
 We don't do a Christmas service.

00:53:41.920 --> 00:53:46.540
 And then, uh, Christmas Eve, I think is Friday because we're not doing a Christmas, we're not

00:53:46.540 --> 00:53:48.160
 doing a service on the 26th.

00:53:48.420 --> 00:53:54.060
 So that, that was a thing that we chose to do because Christmas Eve is so close, but check

00:53:54.060 --> 00:53:59.060
 in with the people, your stakeholders, the people you love the most, your kids find out

00:53:59.060 --> 00:54:02.900
 what their expectations are and communicate what you expect to work.

00:54:03.200 --> 00:54:07.960
 And so, you know, for example, uh, you know, my, I don't think my wife would mind if I shared

00:54:07.960 --> 00:54:14.360
 this, but so often we do, we have a tradition of an 11 PM, like 11, 15 PM, like midnight

00:54:14.360 --> 00:54:15.700
 service for Christmas Eve.

00:54:16.200 --> 00:54:19.320
 And there have been years where I'm like, Hey, I only have to work one service Christmas

00:54:19.320 --> 00:54:23.180
 Christmas Eve, it's the, but not communicating that it's the 11 o'clock.

00:54:23.860 --> 00:54:27.380
 And so like the kids get to bed and it's like, okay, here we go.

00:54:27.600 --> 00:54:29.180
 And I'm like, Oh, see you later.

00:54:29.260 --> 00:54:30.100
 I'm going to work.

00:54:30.180 --> 00:54:34.960
 And she's putting together bikes and like wrapping presents and doing that whole thing.

00:54:35.940 --> 00:54:40.540
 And we have avoided more conflict.

00:54:40.720 --> 00:54:42.660
 I mean, we still have had conflict about it.

00:54:42.700 --> 00:54:46.200
 So like, there's no, it's hard to do well.

00:54:46.300 --> 00:54:50.920
 And that's at least mostly on my shoulders, but communicating in advance of when do you

00:54:50.920 --> 00:54:51.760
 expect me to be home?

00:54:52.220 --> 00:54:53.360
 What are our plans?

00:54:53.540 --> 00:54:55.980
 What can I do in advance of Christmas?

00:54:56.280 --> 00:55:02.960
 What can I do in the days coming to make it easier for you when I'm gone?

00:55:03.000 --> 00:55:03.820
 Because here's the thing.

00:55:03.940 --> 00:55:05.580
 I'm going to be gone on Christmas Eve.

00:55:07.700 --> 00:55:09.020
 I've worked in the church for 10 years.

00:55:09.340 --> 00:55:10.480
 You know that now, baby.

00:55:11.760 --> 00:55:14.620
 I had one year off and it was the year that my dad died.

00:55:14.940 --> 00:55:17.700
 And my senior pastor was like, you need to go be with your family.

00:55:17.780 --> 00:55:18.780
 He died the month before.

00:55:19.480 --> 00:55:22.080
 It's like, Hey, you're off Christmas Eve, but it's our Superbowl.

00:55:22.260 --> 00:55:24.280
 Like you suit up, right?

00:55:24.340 --> 00:55:28.380
 No matter what, because this is when a bunch of people are coming to learn about Jesus and

00:55:28.380 --> 00:55:28.880
 hear about him.

00:55:28.920 --> 00:55:31.640
 So come on, like you drive the mission and do that.

00:55:31.980 --> 00:55:38.360
 And so I like communicating super clearly about the reality because in my head, I get

00:55:38.360 --> 00:55:43.340
 the, what I hope will happen versus what's actually going to happen.

00:55:43.540 --> 00:55:48.620
 And so communicating in advance on what the expectations are, what's the schedule and figuring

00:55:48.620 --> 00:55:50.080
 out how that works with your work schedule.

00:55:50.140 --> 00:55:54.300
 And if your work schedule is the one driving it, it's like, this is what I'm doing.

00:55:54.560 --> 00:55:59.100
 Hey, we can't do hot cocoa on the 22nd and watch Christmas vacation because I have blank.

00:56:00.060 --> 00:56:00.500
 Right.

00:56:00.540 --> 00:56:01.980
 Maybe we could do that another day.

00:56:01.980 --> 00:56:06.440
 Like, how can I, because the stress of this season, I, you know, we just heard a message

00:56:06.440 --> 00:56:12.000
 this weekend, actually pastor Damaris Cavazos Fike, one of our, our pastors at our church preached

00:56:12.000 --> 00:56:15.180
 a message in our series, a weary world rejoices, right?

00:56:15.200 --> 00:56:16.500
 That's what we've called our Christmas series.

00:56:17.160 --> 00:56:22.340
 88% of people report that Christmas is a more stressful time of year.

00:56:23.000 --> 00:56:24.480
 88% of people.

00:56:25.280 --> 00:56:27.280
 Only 88%, I would have anticipated more.

00:56:27.660 --> 00:56:28.240
 Yeah, I know.

00:56:29.060 --> 00:56:29.460
 Yeah.

00:56:29.520 --> 00:56:32.340
 The other 12% of people, I don't know who they are.

00:56:32.420 --> 00:56:33.820
 Mall Santas, I guess, maybe.

00:56:34.000 --> 00:56:35.180
 I don't like, I don't know.

00:56:35.660 --> 00:56:39.260
 Jewish, you know, not, not recognizing Christmas.

00:56:39.480 --> 00:56:41.060
 Maybe that's it, but go ahead.

00:56:41.200 --> 00:56:42.940
 Folks that don't celebrate Christmas.

00:56:43.120 --> 00:56:43.360
 What?

00:56:43.600 --> 00:56:51.000
 Um, and so in talking about that conversation is your peace in this season cannot come from

00:56:51.000 --> 00:56:51.800
 your circumstances.

00:56:52.500 --> 00:56:57.480
 So I talked about a super practical thing that will help you like navigate those circumstances

00:56:57.480 --> 00:57:01.580
 because a lot of times the circumstances of Christmas suck for ministry staff.

00:57:01.760 --> 00:57:02.700
 Just own it.

00:57:02.780 --> 00:57:04.760
 Just know Christmas Eve sucks.

00:57:05.100 --> 00:57:05.300
 Okay.

00:57:05.380 --> 00:57:06.600
 So how do we make it suck less?

00:57:06.920 --> 00:57:08.840
 That's basically the advice that I add.

00:57:09.100 --> 00:57:12.040
 The other part is that your peace can't come from your circumstances.

00:57:12.660 --> 00:57:16.520
 Because if you're waiting for peace to come from your circumstances, you're going to be waiting

00:57:16.520 --> 00:57:17.700
 until Jesus comes back.

00:57:18.400 --> 00:57:21.880
 Uh, because that's reality, man.

00:57:22.020 --> 00:57:23.860
 And he was born into a whole thing.

00:57:23.940 --> 00:57:29.140
 And the coolest thing I'm now, I'm just taking Damaris's message, which an amazing message

00:57:29.140 --> 00:57:29.580
 on peace.

00:57:30.340 --> 00:57:34.240
 Like the angels announced like the Prince of Peace is here.

00:57:34.980 --> 00:57:40.340
 This is the Prince of Peace and he's bringing heaven peace to this messed up earth.

00:57:41.000 --> 00:57:43.720
 But the shepherds were still in kind of a crummy situation.

00:57:43.860 --> 00:57:45.060
 Being a shepherd wasn't great.

00:57:45.400 --> 00:57:47.240
 Mary and Joseph are in a crummy situation.

00:57:47.440 --> 00:57:50.260
 There's all these kids that are murdered, right?

00:57:50.340 --> 00:57:52.160
 Like this is not a good situation.

00:57:53.000 --> 00:57:57.280
 This isn't like, oh, not everything is perfect.

00:57:57.660 --> 00:57:59.900
 Like that's not what this is.

00:57:59.920 --> 00:58:02.820
 The circumstances would dictate anything but peace.

00:58:03.500 --> 00:58:07.600
 But the angels are still like, hey, the Prince of Peace, the prophesied one is here.

00:58:07.940 --> 00:58:10.020
 And it's because he's the person of peace.

00:58:10.100 --> 00:58:12.760
 That's the only place you can find peace is in Jesus.

00:58:13.080 --> 00:58:14.740
 Your circumstances are not going to do it.

00:58:15.320 --> 00:58:15.840
 Yeah, you know what?

00:58:15.880 --> 00:58:16.860
 That's so true.

00:58:17.280 --> 00:58:21.640
 And I mean, really, the heart of this is you can't control that peace.

00:58:22.000 --> 00:58:26.580
 Like, you know, and that peace from the Spirit and being engaged, what you can do is you can

00:58:26.580 --> 00:58:29.980
 position yourself to be receptive for that.

00:58:29.980 --> 00:58:35.300
 And so making sure that you've got these boundaries in place and you're leading others in the place

00:58:35.300 --> 00:58:38.020
 where they are able to have that peace.

00:58:38.160 --> 00:58:45.920
 And so that's such, I think, a needed thing in such a difficult season, mid-post-COVID,

00:58:46.580 --> 00:58:54.040
 you know, the great exodus of church staff people heading on, leaving the ministry area, recognizing,

00:58:54.360 --> 00:58:59.180
 hey, there is a need, there is a struggle, there is a burden that we're living with right

00:58:59.180 --> 00:59:00.620
 now, especially in ministry.

00:59:01.020 --> 00:59:09.360
 And being able to, um, to position yourself to not lose sight of that peace, to not work

00:59:09.360 --> 00:59:12.980
 yourself out of a relationship with the Holy Spirit.

00:59:12.980 --> 00:59:17.520
 I mean, just what a, what a responsibility we have, uh, in this season.

00:59:17.520 --> 00:59:20.920
 So, hey, John, listen, man, I want to, I want to thank you for this.

00:59:20.980 --> 00:59:23.120
 I think this is, uh, this was needed.

00:59:23.120 --> 00:59:28.220
 Like, how do we get, uh, pastors a break in this, in this season, digital pastors, especially

00:59:28.220 --> 00:59:32.900
 just with all the, the stress and strains that, that we have, um, we're going to land

00:59:32.900 --> 00:59:36.240
 a plane just as, as we're wrapping up here, John, any, any closing thoughts?

00:59:36.800 --> 00:59:37.080
 Yeah.

00:59:37.220 --> 00:59:41.720
 I, you know, the thing that you were just talking about, the easiest place to lose sight of

00:59:41.720 --> 00:59:43.260
 Jesus is working for a church.

00:59:43.940 --> 00:59:51.340
 And I, I don't, I don't know how it works, but it is, you know, it is, I see more people

00:59:51.340 --> 00:59:55.740
 lose faith by working for a church than almost any other thing.

00:59:56.420 --> 01:00:02.660
 And it's because you forget, I say it's because everybody is different, I'm sure, but the pressure

01:00:02.660 --> 01:00:08.520
 to give more than you have will eventually like bankrupt your soul.

01:00:08.840 --> 01:00:10.720
 It just, it just does.

01:00:11.420 --> 01:00:16.300
 And if you're trying to pour out something you don't have and you can't give it, that

01:00:16.300 --> 01:00:19.980
 is like the definition of burnout and pain and grief.

01:00:20.720 --> 01:00:21.680
 It's horrible.

01:00:22.400 --> 01:00:27.740
 And so when you try to give what you don't have, you, you lose so much.

01:00:27.740 --> 01:00:33.740
 And so it's part of why, you know, it's part of why I started a podcast called better on

01:00:33.740 --> 01:00:34.280
 the inside.

01:00:34.420 --> 01:00:40.260
 I'm sorry to go to full, like shameless self promo mode, but, uh, because the tagline of

01:00:40.260 --> 01:00:43.040
 the podcast is how to work for a church without losing your soul.

01:00:44.160 --> 01:00:48.820
 And it's that way because I just see people, whether you're a volunteer or whether you actually

01:00:48.820 --> 01:00:53.260
 work for the church, the closer you get, the more you serve.

01:00:53.420 --> 01:00:56.000
 Sometimes it seems like the farther away you get from Jesus.

01:00:57.000 --> 01:01:00.280
 And I don't have all the answers.

01:01:00.280 --> 01:01:05.120
 I don't totally understand how that works or what that is, but we just try to come from

01:01:05.120 --> 01:01:10.700
 a perspective of how do you actually get better on the inside and how do we build church cultures

01:01:10.700 --> 01:01:12.080
 that are better on the inside.

01:01:12.080 --> 01:01:16.620
 So not just better on the inside for us, but better on the inside for these church cultures.

01:01:17.120 --> 01:01:25.060
 And it's that it's, we, if we're burning people out and people are just like falling off and

01:01:25.060 --> 01:01:29.960
 not volunteering or, or leaving staff because they're done, I don't think we're successful.

01:01:30.580 --> 01:01:32.200
 We're not fully successful.

01:01:32.200 --> 01:01:34.720
 And yes, I'm sure people are getting baptized and saved.

01:01:34.860 --> 01:01:36.860
 I'm sure marriages are being saved.

01:01:36.980 --> 01:01:43.560
 I'm sure great things are going to happen, but man, God uses donkeys and Samson and David

01:01:43.560 --> 01:01:46.460
 and all these flawed people to do good things.

01:01:46.560 --> 01:01:50.300
 That's not an excuse for not taking care of people under your care.

01:01:50.520 --> 01:01:55.420
 It's just not success is not an excuse to neglect people spiritually.

01:01:56.320 --> 01:01:57.420
 Um, well, it's working.

01:01:57.560 --> 01:01:58.860
 Yeah, of course it's working.

01:01:58.980 --> 01:02:02.640
 God is going to work like God uses the worst people.

01:02:02.640 --> 01:02:05.680
 Like, like I just look at his disciples.

01:02:06.000 --> 01:02:09.780
 It's Paul and it's other people who are like, yeah, we're a fisherman.

01:02:09.780 --> 01:02:14.960
 And we're, you know, they're, they're betraying him and they're, they're leaving him high and

01:02:14.960 --> 01:02:15.200
 dry.

01:02:15.300 --> 01:02:17.600
 And you just look at the nature of what God does.

01:02:17.680 --> 01:02:20.980
 God is going to use horrendously flawed people.

01:02:21.160 --> 01:02:26.480
 So success is not an excuse to just keep going and, and burning out your people.

01:02:27.520 --> 01:02:31.880
 Success is not an excuse to just keep going and burn out your people.

01:02:32.540 --> 01:02:37.600
 Um, man, what, what a, what a great line to just even, even wrap up.

01:02:37.940 --> 01:02:38.900
 Uh, this was funny.

01:02:38.920 --> 01:02:42.440
 Like we didn't, we didn't talk at all about the Mars Hill podcast, but that right there,

01:02:42.480 --> 01:02:47.140
 and I, I haven't listened to like one episode of it, but that right there is a perfect synopsis

01:02:47.140 --> 01:02:54.680
 of, uh, success is not the, the reason to just keep going and, and burn out your, your people.

01:02:54.780 --> 01:02:55.280
 Love it.

01:02:55.520 --> 01:02:58.620
 Hey, John, thank you so much for jumping on the podcast.

01:02:58.820 --> 01:03:03.420
 Um, Merry Christmas, everybody who's, who's listening, have a, have a Merry Christmas, uh,

01:03:03.420 --> 01:03:11.540
 find peace somewhere in that, uh, give an opportunity for the spirit to, to, um, to speak to you in

01:03:11.540 --> 01:03:12.780
 the, in this holiday season.

01:03:12.780 --> 01:03:19.280
 Don't cram it so full with, uh, things and, and create boundaries, maybe even for, for that

01:03:19.280 --> 01:03:20.720
 relationship to happen.

01:03:20.720 --> 01:03:25.120
 But, uh, for John, we're going to wrap this is, uh, Jeff with, uh, the church digital.

01:03:25.420 --> 01:03:27.640
 Thanks for jumping on, on the podcast here.

01:03:27.760 --> 01:03:30.560
 And, uh, we'll see you soon here at the church digital podcast.

01:03:30.660 --> 01:03:31.080
 Y'all have a good day.