WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:03.800 Welcome to the Church Digital Podcast, powered by Stadia Church Planting. 00:00:04.440 --> 00:00:08.540 Through this podcast, learn about how God is using technology and innovation 00:00:08.540 --> 00:00:11.580 in digital and digital environments around the world. 00:00:12.080 --> 00:00:16.000 Our goal? To help churches like yours learn to be the church digitally. 00:00:16.660 --> 00:00:21.600 Our heart? That churches like yours will discover a newfound focus on disciple-making 00:00:21.600 --> 00:00:23.620 that will revolutionize your church. 00:00:24.120 --> 00:00:26.660 And now, your host, here's Jeff Reed. 00:00:28.240 --> 00:00:31.100 That's 198 of the Church Digital Podcast. 00:00:31.200 --> 00:00:34.680 Hey, it's Jeff here. Can you believe 198 of these? 00:00:34.840 --> 00:00:36.980 Like, that's a big number. 00:00:37.220 --> 00:00:43.400 I can't believe I've had 198 conversations with you all in doing this podcast. 00:00:43.540 --> 00:00:45.140 I didn't even think I could get to five. 00:00:45.540 --> 00:00:48.740 I want to tell you right off the bat, I'm going to give you a sneak peek of the next three. 00:00:49.080 --> 00:00:55.020 There's some major moments coming out here in these next three podcasts, 00:00:55.020 --> 00:00:57.980 leading up to episode 200. 00:00:58.240 --> 00:01:03.440 We're going to be talking a lot about what's coming in 2022 and beyond the future, 00:01:03.560 --> 00:01:04.580 the Digital Church Network. 00:01:04.800 --> 00:01:07.380 There's so much new things that are happening. 00:01:07.520 --> 00:01:10.760 You want to stay tuned for the next three episodes. 00:01:11.200 --> 00:01:13.600 And that's starting here with episode 198. 00:01:13.800 --> 00:01:14.600 I'm going to be honest. 00:01:14.740 --> 00:01:19.580 I am super excited to hear this guest and to have this conversation. 00:01:19.580 --> 00:01:23.840 I'm bringing in Todd Wilson, CEO of Exponential. 00:01:23.920 --> 00:01:30.020 Now, if you've not had much exposure to Todd, I have found him to be one of the most, 00:01:30.060 --> 00:01:35.860 if not the most strategic, future-minded person I have ever had a conversation with, 00:01:36.120 --> 00:01:38.020 blessed to have a conversation with. 00:01:38.220 --> 00:01:41.680 And Todd, I've been very thankful for the time that I've been able to have with him. 00:01:41.680 --> 00:01:50.740 But I got to tell you, this man looks at church in a completely different way than the majority of church leaders out there. 00:01:50.820 --> 00:01:58.520 And the ability to kind of just spend time with him and understand his view has been phenomenal. 00:01:58.740 --> 00:02:01.000 It has been so exciting and refreshing. 00:02:01.540 --> 00:02:06.960 And I, Jeff, the Church Digital Podcast, I wanted to share this conversation with you 00:02:06.960 --> 00:02:11.740 so that you can get a vantage point and get excited about what's coming down the road. 00:02:11.800 --> 00:02:13.900 There's some huge moments here in this podcast. 00:02:14.020 --> 00:02:16.860 Now, I'm going to let the cat out of the bag here a little bit. 00:02:17.660 --> 00:02:22.500 Exponential, Todd Wilson, CEO, has acquired Leadership Network. 00:02:22.500 --> 00:02:29.920 Now, LN has been a very influential organization here in U.S. and Western church culture over the years. 00:02:30.340 --> 00:02:37.320 In many ways, was responsible or a big part in establishing the megachurch movement back in the 90s, 00:02:37.940 --> 00:02:43.760 establishing the multisite movement within the 2000s, working with churches that were moving in that way. 00:02:44.680 --> 00:02:51.820 And so, honestly, the leadership network has been influential in my life over the past decade or so. 00:02:52.120 --> 00:03:00.240 And it took a pause for a while, kind of fell off the radar, and Exponential, Todd, is acquiring it and building it back up. 00:03:00.300 --> 00:03:07.800 We talk a lot about Leadership Network here within the conversation and where that organization is wanting to go in the future. 00:03:08.180 --> 00:03:09.320 And it's kind of cool. 00:03:09.700 --> 00:03:11.600 So we're going to be talking about Leadership Network. 00:03:11.700 --> 00:03:12.640 We're going to be talking about Exponential. 00:03:12.740 --> 00:03:15.300 We're going to be talking about Meta Church. 00:03:15.440 --> 00:03:21.700 Well, I don't know of a more controversial subject in the church world today, at least here in America, of Meta Church. 00:03:21.740 --> 00:03:24.360 Can a church operate in the Metaverse? 00:03:24.740 --> 00:03:27.260 Should a church operate in the Metaverse? 00:03:27.740 --> 00:03:33.800 Some really controversial ideas, and we talk about it here in the podcast, and you are going to love it. 00:03:33.940 --> 00:03:42.240 So here for the conversation, we're bringing in Todd Wilson, CEO of Exponential and newly acquired Leadership Network, 00:03:42.440 --> 00:03:53.400 and myself, Jeff at the Church Digital, Digital Church Network, and a plethora of other things in a conversation that I'm simply calling the challenge of today's Meta Church. 00:03:53.900 --> 00:03:55.260 Okay, everybody, here you go. 00:03:55.720 --> 00:03:58.460 Hey, Todd, thanks for jumping on here with the podcast with us. 00:03:58.940 --> 00:04:01.440 I'm really looking forward to this conversation. 00:04:01.580 --> 00:04:03.480 This is going to probably be one of my favorite podcasts. 00:04:03.620 --> 00:04:06.020 I've been really looking forward to this one coming up. 00:04:06.080 --> 00:04:07.680 Hey, talk to us a little bit here. 00:04:07.780 --> 00:04:08.040 I know. 00:04:08.220 --> 00:04:11.180 Jeff, first off, Jeff, do you say that to everybody? 00:04:11.340 --> 00:04:13.420 This is going to be one of your favorite podcasts? 00:04:13.640 --> 00:04:13.900 Maybe. 00:04:14.680 --> 00:04:18.480 Public record may show that I do say that it's one of my favorite podcasts a lot. 00:04:18.560 --> 00:04:21.940 I typically will say, I am really excited about this podcast. 00:04:22.100 --> 00:04:23.920 Man, this is an awesome podcast. 00:04:24.060 --> 00:04:28.520 But to say favorite, you know, I may put you, Jay Cranda, Rob Wagner. 00:04:28.660 --> 00:04:30.460 You guys are like my favorites here. 00:04:30.460 --> 00:04:37.520 And so I'm really, I'm just, I'm excited about this topic and some of the things that we're going to announce here on the podcast. 00:04:37.720 --> 00:04:46.100 So listen, from my looking from the outside, it looks like Exponential has acquired a leadership network. 00:04:46.240 --> 00:04:53.400 Now, leadership network has been influential in my life going back a decade plus to the early multi-site movement stuff. 00:04:53.400 --> 00:05:00.480 And it's exciting to me to see Exponential breathing new life into this thing and running with it. 00:05:00.500 --> 00:05:01.960 Do you want to maybe tell us a little bit here? 00:05:02.320 --> 00:05:03.580 What's the big picture? 00:05:03.680 --> 00:05:05.200 What's happening here with leadership network? 00:05:05.620 --> 00:05:12.020 As you said, leadership network has an amazing history over 35 years, founded by Bob Buford, 00:05:12.560 --> 00:05:16.400 impacted significantly by the father of modern management, Peter Drucker. 00:05:17.020 --> 00:05:22.120 And it has just impacted thousands of church leaders. 00:05:22.900 --> 00:05:30.380 I think one way, you know, just why the acquiring leadership network, why a future and why the connection to Exponential. 00:05:31.080 --> 00:05:37.820 Here's the simple phrase I want to use, Jeff, from mega to multi to micro. 00:05:38.460 --> 00:05:39.880 And now I would add and meta. 00:05:40.280 --> 00:05:44.300 So from mega to multi to micro and meta. 00:05:44.520 --> 00:05:52.880 If you just look over the last 30 to 35 years, leadership network was one of the key catalysts of what many would call the mega church movement. 00:05:52.900 --> 00:05:58.200 With the large church, a large, attractional, impactful church. 00:05:58.940 --> 00:06:07.480 20 years ago, when we had, you know, a few hundred multi-site churches in America, leadership network waded in in a big way around 2000. 00:06:08.780 --> 00:06:12.020 You know, we've now got over 7,500 multi-site churches. 00:06:12.740 --> 00:06:15.740 And so we saw a move from mega to multi. 00:06:16.260 --> 00:06:21.100 What we've been seeing for the last handful of years is a real move toward micro. 00:06:21.700 --> 00:06:26.800 What happens after you go from mega to multi and you've got multiple locations? 00:06:27.460 --> 00:06:31.360 The next natural thing to think about is the micro expressions of church. 00:06:31.420 --> 00:06:33.460 And we've seen that happening. 00:06:33.600 --> 00:06:45.800 Well, now I would say in an even more accelerated way, we're seeing this move, not so much yet with churches, but for sure in culture, the move to meta. 00:06:46.460 --> 00:06:52.260 And I think the huge question is, is the church going to get in front of that, behind that, in the way of that? 00:06:52.900 --> 00:06:56.380 And so enter the acquisition of leadership network. 00:06:56.520 --> 00:06:59.540 Leadership network has always been about pursuing next. 00:06:59.640 --> 00:07:01.060 What's next for the church? 00:07:01.080 --> 00:07:03.680 Just like multi-site 20 years ago. 00:07:04.540 --> 00:07:09.380 And so exponential, we're crazy about healthy church reproduction. 00:07:10.340 --> 00:07:17.420 And just in a nutshell, not all growth in church is capable of reproducing. 00:07:18.360 --> 00:07:23.320 Only some forms of growth are healthy that you would even want to reproduce. 00:07:24.060 --> 00:07:30.120 And so the link with leadership network is we absolutely want to see leadership network be about healthy growth. 00:07:30.120 --> 00:07:34.220 The kind of growth that has the ability to reproduce and multiply. 00:07:35.000 --> 00:07:47.240 And so the relationship that we've kicked off here between exponential and leadership network is going to be this wonderful balancing act between healthy growth and healthy reproduction and multiplication. 00:07:47.880 --> 00:07:48.020 Love it. 00:07:48.160 --> 00:07:50.060 Love seeing the brand come back. 00:07:50.660 --> 00:07:53.420 Love the innovative ideas that are coming out of that. 00:07:53.420 --> 00:08:03.500 And love that exponential is stepping in and helping get this organization back and running after a couple hard years. 00:08:03.640 --> 00:08:13.360 Now, what's intriguing to me is this idea, and you even hinted, like meta is a thing that should be, that a lot, that it feels like world. 00:08:13.500 --> 00:08:18.800 It feels like the culture is running with, but we, the church, often struggle with it. 00:08:18.860 --> 00:08:29.480 We were, Todd, we were talking off air and like a lot of the meta type content, the metaverse content that I've created through the church digital and posted on YouTube. 00:08:30.280 --> 00:08:36.380 To be honest, it's been some of the most hated content that I've posted on YouTube. 00:08:36.780 --> 00:08:41.120 I would say probably the negative feedback that I get is some 10 to 1. 00:08:41.740 --> 00:08:52.580 Now, what's, what's fascinating is that, well, I don't know that they're all theologically solid arguments that, that, that I'm seeing, you know, like probably my favorite one. 00:08:52.680 --> 00:09:06.320 If you go back and listen to past episodes, I talk about them all the time, but probably my favorite pod comment here on the metaverse was, well, Jeff, everybody knows that all technological advancements come from fallen angels. 00:09:06.460 --> 00:09:08.480 So therefore the metaverse is of the devil. 00:09:10.120 --> 00:09:19.100 And to be honest, I don't really know how to like answer that one other than, can you show me some like biblical arguments, some theological challenge? 00:09:19.320 --> 00:09:28.960 Like, so when, when leadership network is stepping into the space and saying, Hey, like we really want to champion the idea of, of, of meta church. 00:09:30.440 --> 00:09:32.620 Are, are, are you ready for that battle? 00:09:32.620 --> 00:09:44.860 Did, did you feel that tension even going back historically looking at some of the mega church movements and the, and the multi-site church movements was, was there that animosity even around back then in those days towards church innovation? 00:09:44.860 --> 00:09:49.900 I think Jeff, there's, I mean, we've got to unpack a couple of dimensions of what you just said. 00:09:50.120 --> 00:09:54.920 Let, let me, for just a second, push the innovation part aside for a second. 00:09:55.800 --> 00:10:02.300 Um, I, I think we've really got to start with the mission field part of the conversation, not the technology part of it. 00:10:02.700 --> 00:10:12.160 And I, I think we've got to ask that, that, that, you know, I know joking a little bit, but you know, the comment about it's, it's from fallen angels kind of thing. 00:10:12.160 --> 00:10:26.140 I think we could go back in history at every secular, heathen, sinful mission field out there and, and call it bad things. 00:10:26.140 --> 00:10:27.880 The mission field part of it. 00:10:27.880 --> 00:10:31.400 The question is, what are we going to do about mission field opportunities? 00:10:31.840 --> 00:10:50.620 And I, I think what we've got to be sensitive to is, and, and, and we've got to be careful not to get too hung up in the debate on this early on of, you know, is doing church work in the meta space church or not? 00:10:50.780 --> 00:10:58.740 Like the, the definition of church and what do you call a church and are you starting a church, but let's also just push that aside a second. 00:10:59.060 --> 00:11:08.640 I think we're going to serve ourself better if we start with, is the meta space a mission field and how big of a mission field is it? 00:11:09.300 --> 00:11:14.600 Whether it's sinful or not sinful or technology is it, is it a mission field and how big is it? 00:11:14.640 --> 00:11:17.480 And is it going to be a growing mission field? 00:11:18.120 --> 00:11:20.080 What kind of opportunity does it present? 00:11:20.660 --> 00:11:28.320 And if it is a mission field, then the next natural question is, are we going to need missionaries to that mission field? 00:11:29.640 --> 00:11:32.700 And I, I'm ready to fight the battle on that one. 00:11:32.920 --> 00:11:34.700 Yes, it's a huge mission field. 00:11:34.820 --> 00:11:37.660 And yes, we need missionaries to that mission field. 00:11:38.100 --> 00:11:46.320 And if the church doesn't embrace that part of it and get out ahead of it, we are going to miss what's going on all around us right now. 00:11:46.320 --> 00:11:52.840 Now, the speed at which the gap is closing on virtual and reality and the significance of what's going to happen in meta. 00:11:53.480 --> 00:11:57.040 We're, we're just going to miss out on things if we don't get ourself in it. 00:11:57.040 --> 00:11:59.660 And I think rightfully so. 00:11:59.660 --> 00:12:01.780 And I think rightfully so, I'll speak for me, okay? 00:12:02.380 --> 00:12:08.840 This past year, you've actually helped get me exposed into some of the things where I was probably pretty cynical. 00:12:09.300 --> 00:12:26.800 And I would say for me personally on the journey I've been on, what I see in meta is simultaneously frightening and unbelievably opportunistic, like at the same time. 00:12:26.800 --> 00:12:35.380 Like it's, it's, if you want to say frightening and encouraging or frightening and something we better not miss kind of thing. 00:12:35.500 --> 00:12:38.860 And I think it's that dichotomy that can scare people. 00:12:39.220 --> 00:12:44.560 The dark side of it, yeah, there's things we've got to be scared about. 00:12:44.640 --> 00:12:51.240 But at the same time, it's those dark areas that give us the opportunity to mission field part of it. 00:12:51.240 --> 00:12:56.080 So, you know, your question was, is Leadership Network prepared for it? 00:12:56.180 --> 00:12:59.000 Well, I'd boil it down for this. 00:12:59.240 --> 00:13:05.780 If we're going to talk about meta as a mission field, absolutely ready to die on that hill right now. 00:13:06.120 --> 00:13:11.860 If we want to get into battles about, well, ecclesiologically, can you have a church in the metasphere? 00:13:12.020 --> 00:13:13.320 Is it church or not church? 00:13:13.360 --> 00:13:13.840 Is it whatever? 00:13:14.560 --> 00:13:22.760 I'm actually going to, maybe we'll just help moderate some of those fights that people want to have on that part of it. 00:13:22.960 --> 00:13:33.280 Yeah, I had a friend of mine, a pastor mentor said, hey, Jeff, the ecclesiology of a meta of a digital church, he said, that's probably going to take like 30 plus years. 00:13:33.560 --> 00:13:37.660 That's not something that you fix overnight, which is funny. 00:13:37.660 --> 00:13:54.540 Even in some of my own language, I've shifted towards more of a mission field conversation because I think that's one that is much, I think it's the necessary step before we can really nail down some of those larger conversations. 00:13:54.760 --> 00:13:57.380 And Jeff, let me make a clarification on that. 00:13:57.380 --> 00:14:06.040 Like we've had a little bit of a benefit at Exponential going back a couple of years, maybe three years right now. 00:14:07.140 --> 00:14:16.380 We were wading into the micro conversation in a significant way, you know, the from mega to multi to micro, the future micro church expressions. 00:14:17.040 --> 00:14:20.240 And we've never been prescriptive at Exponential. 00:14:20.400 --> 00:14:23.640 Like we don't say here's the right way to do it or here's the model to use. 00:14:23.640 --> 00:14:26.900 We like to platform multiple different ways to do things. 00:14:27.380 --> 00:14:34.200 And so something like what you just referred to, minimum ecclesiology, like what's the definition of a church? 00:14:34.340 --> 00:14:37.920 What's the formula for what makes it a church or not a church? 00:14:38.180 --> 00:14:43.780 That is not the kind of thing that we've ever been prescriptive on or even want to be prescriptive on. 00:14:44.180 --> 00:14:56.220 But if you go back three or four years, we saw it come, not so much with meta at the time, but with micro, we saw it coming that what was happening is we were working with different leaders. 00:14:56.220 --> 00:15:02.580 And you might have a leader who, oh, the shuttle bus that I drive from the rental car place to the airport. 00:15:02.580 --> 00:15:03.560 That's my church. 00:15:03.560 --> 00:15:07.060 I'm the pastor of the rental car shuttle bus. 00:15:07.720 --> 00:15:08.260 Oh, really? 00:15:08.500 --> 00:15:15.280 So like the sum total interaction you're going to have with somebody in their life is like five minutes on a shuttle bus and that's your church? 00:15:15.280 --> 00:15:30.580 Like, you know, and again, I'm not wanting to draw judgment on minimum ecclesiology here, but we could see that where the micro church things were going, minimum ecclesiology was going to become a big deal moving into the future. 00:15:30.920 --> 00:15:38.820 And I think the same thing with meta, micro and meta, the conversation about what is the minimum ecclesiology. 00:15:38.820 --> 00:15:48.040 And I would just encourage people to be careful about the legalistic part of imposing on someone else your definition. 00:15:48.300 --> 00:16:00.340 I think having a set of principles, what we did at Exponential was come up with seven or eight areas of focus that if you're going to call something a church, 00:16:00.880 --> 00:16:06.500 it's questions to ponder, how do you address these seven or eight things if you're going to call it a church? 00:16:06.720 --> 00:16:13.440 Not to prescribe how to do those things, but are you doing those things sort of thing? 00:16:13.800 --> 00:16:17.420 And I think that's going to equally be a conversation with meta at this point. 00:16:17.500 --> 00:16:24.780 I think the sort of the interaction between micro and meta, there's so many overlap things there. 00:16:24.780 --> 00:16:36.600 Many of the people who are going to be very uncomfortable with meta are equally uncomfortable with micro and many of the micro things happening because it's not that large gathering. 00:16:36.820 --> 00:16:38.140 It's not physical. 00:16:38.360 --> 00:16:45.900 You get around and give the hug to somebody when they come in the front door and it's Sunday morning and, you know, all of the traditional ways we think of church. 00:16:45.900 --> 00:17:00.680 So through Leadership Network, you're championing this idea of different models of church, maybe looking at some micro strategies and some meta strategies with that and really trying to help innovation happen within that. 00:17:00.840 --> 00:17:12.080 And I got to tell you, I'm excited anytime the word church and innovation comes together in an organization like Leadership Network, doing what they're doing here is crazy exciting, which is one of the reasons why. 00:17:12.300 --> 00:17:28.520 And I think Todd came up with it and I was like, no, no, no, no, we're keeping that exactly the way that it is. 00:17:28.520 --> 00:17:33.620 So my title with Leadership Network is Director of Meta. 00:17:33.620 --> 00:17:56.060 And so I am looking forward to coming on board and starting to create new content, blogs, live shows, podcasts, and really championing the idea of the mission field of the meta church and how thinking different can help us reach a different type of person. 00:17:56.340 --> 00:18:02.860 And so, Todd, man, thanks for inviting me in to be part of this and being part of the Leadership Network team. 00:18:02.900 --> 00:18:04.400 Well, Jeff, we are thrilled to have you. 00:18:04.460 --> 00:18:06.400 You're the right person at the right time. 00:18:07.520 --> 00:18:14.780 Your heart for innovation, your heart for digital, your heart for meta, it's just the right convergence at the right time. 00:18:14.780 --> 00:18:28.980 I would say on the innovation side of it, we're sort of trying to walk a line, I'm going to say, with five different priorities on innovation right now. 00:18:29.040 --> 00:18:36.440 And this is sort of the, as we're coming out of COVID and all the churn of COVID and this from mega to multi to micro and meta. 00:18:36.660 --> 00:18:44.320 And so the five areas of innovation that we're focused on, and you are going to be our key director of one of the five. 00:18:44.480 --> 00:18:50.920 We've got the micro area with micro churches, micro networks, and the future of that. 00:18:50.920 --> 00:18:54.520 So there's a director for that that's a peer to you. 00:18:55.440 --> 00:18:58.780 Meta, then, how the meta future integrates in. 00:18:59.040 --> 00:19:07.420 And if you just take those two and pause there, what does the integration of micro meta look like as we move forward out into the future? 00:19:07.560 --> 00:19:15.540 I'm just excited that you're going to be our champion, our activist, our activist for what that looks like out into the future. 00:19:15.540 --> 00:19:26.240 And hopefully to, you know, on one end of the spectrum is to help educate church leaders and leaders on what's it even mean to say meta. 00:19:26.500 --> 00:19:31.200 Right now, if we had 100 people that are listening write down their definition of meta, 00:19:31.520 --> 00:19:37.340 I think we'd end up with at least 90 different definitions written down on the piece of paper, probably. 00:19:37.560 --> 00:19:44.980 So, you know, one aspect of this is just to help bring the education and language together for church leaders. 00:19:45.080 --> 00:19:49.520 And then on the other end of the spectrum is really to highlight and platform. 00:19:50.220 --> 00:19:53.720 What I love about this, Jeff, is that this isn't theoretical right now. 00:19:53.820 --> 00:19:59.080 We're not talking about some space age thing 30 years into the future that somebody's dreaming about. 00:19:59.420 --> 00:20:05.840 We're talking about things that there's practitioners in the trenches engaging in things right now. 00:20:06.380 --> 00:20:16.320 I mean, we're talking about technology that different churches are already leveraging as a mission field with, you know, engagement in. 00:20:17.160 --> 00:20:20.320 Our third area then is next generation leadership. 00:20:20.680 --> 00:20:26.600 How do we do the above but do it as we're mobilizing Gen Z, Gen Alpha behind them? 00:20:26.600 --> 00:20:37.620 But it's really starting to look within a church context, not just how do we reach the younger generation, but here's the significant thing for Leadership Network. 00:20:38.220 --> 00:20:43.880 How do we help the next generation see a value in church leadership? 00:20:44.600 --> 00:20:49.760 Like not to see it cynically as something to be avoided, but something to be drawn into. 00:20:49.760 --> 00:20:57.260 And that's where I think the importance of this innovation side of it, Jeff, is especially digital and innovation. 00:20:58.120 --> 00:21:09.020 You know, if you quickly want to turn off the next generation to church things, then, yeah, let's go figure out how to promote that meta's from Satan kind of thing. 00:21:09.120 --> 00:21:13.220 And, you know, that's a good way of cutting off the next generation. 00:21:13.220 --> 00:21:22.020 So, and then fourth, what we're calling healthy church growth and a healthy operating system for the church. 00:21:22.520 --> 00:21:31.140 This is probably a whole nother podcast episode, but just suffice it to say, the question we've got to increasingly wrestle with is, 00:21:31.640 --> 00:21:38.280 what does the prevailing operating system of the church in the West get us where we need to go? 00:21:39.240 --> 00:21:44.800 And so the fourth priority we're going to be looking at is what's the new wineskin? 00:21:44.960 --> 00:21:50.960 What's the new forms of operating system of the church in the West look like out into the future? 00:21:50.960 --> 00:21:59.320 You can see how even in these first four things, micro, meta, next gen, and healthy operating systems of the future, 00:21:59.540 --> 00:22:01.580 they all integrate together. 00:22:01.880 --> 00:22:05.800 And then our fifth and final area is the healthy leader themselves that, you know, 00:22:05.840 --> 00:22:13.440 one of the things we're seeing through COVID is just, you know, such a crisis of anxiety and depression and mental health things. 00:22:13.440 --> 00:22:17.840 And, you know, the great resignation cycle of so many people leaving ministry. 00:22:17.840 --> 00:22:25.500 And so we really want to balance all the innovation parts of this with just the reality of people need to be healthy. 00:22:25.820 --> 00:22:26.920 Yeah, I'm so glad. 00:22:27.400 --> 00:22:28.920 Number five was new to me. 00:22:29.020 --> 00:22:30.680 I didn't know that one. 00:22:30.780 --> 00:22:34.420 And that is such a large need in church today. 00:22:34.500 --> 00:22:40.480 We've had Mindy Caliguire on here countless times talking through soul care and staff health and things. 00:22:40.580 --> 00:22:44.080 And so I love that that's one of the fifth values. 00:22:44.080 --> 00:22:45.760 I was on a call recently. 00:22:45.940 --> 00:22:48.160 We had the four you were aware of. 00:22:48.840 --> 00:22:51.760 And I was on a call recently with Pete Scazzaro. 00:22:52.020 --> 00:22:57.740 And every time Pete and I are on, he's he's fussing at me about where's the healthy leader part of what you're doing? 00:22:57.840 --> 00:22:59.480 Where's the healthy leader part of what you're doing? 00:22:59.480 --> 00:23:08.540 And I finally said to him this time, you know what, Pete, we ought to split that healthy church, healthy growth and operating system thing into the church piece and the leader piece. 00:23:09.420 --> 00:23:13.080 And we can do that as long as you'll jump in and help us with it. 00:23:13.080 --> 00:23:15.400 So, hey, let's let's put some meat on this. 00:23:15.480 --> 00:23:16.440 So you it's funny. 00:23:16.500 --> 00:23:17.860 You crack the joke about meta. 00:23:17.980 --> 00:23:18.980 Ask 100 pastors. 00:23:19.140 --> 00:23:20.280 You get 90 different answers. 00:23:20.600 --> 00:23:22.120 100 people get 90 different answers. 00:23:22.640 --> 00:23:27.300 I usually crack that joke around what the word discipleship means, but we can evolve it for meta here. 00:23:27.340 --> 00:23:28.680 I think it fits there as well. 00:23:29.000 --> 00:23:31.180 So tell me, like, I'm just curious. 00:23:31.240 --> 00:23:32.280 We can dialogue this together. 00:23:32.480 --> 00:23:36.040 What what's your definition of of meta? 00:23:36.400 --> 00:23:36.860 OK, yeah. 00:23:36.860 --> 00:23:39.340 More than just the Facebook parent company. 00:23:39.660 --> 00:23:42.940 When you look at the metaverse, you're a futurist kind of guy. 00:23:43.140 --> 00:23:43.980 Where are we going? 00:23:44.140 --> 00:23:45.320 What is this going to encapsulate? 00:23:45.320 --> 00:23:47.140 Let me first give the disclaimer. 00:23:47.360 --> 00:23:49.500 This is a an opinion question. 00:23:49.700 --> 00:23:51.800 You asked me my opinion of what meta is. 00:23:51.980 --> 00:23:55.840 So there's nothing authoritative about what I'm getting ready to say. 00:23:55.940 --> 00:23:58.640 And it it could be completely off base. 00:23:58.880 --> 00:24:05.640 I think you and I this past year participated in what was called exponential ventures, 00:24:05.640 --> 00:24:11.320 where we would bring in innovative projects for different churches to look at. 00:24:11.320 --> 00:24:17.660 And many of those projects were ones you recommended in what you would call the meta space. 00:24:18.000 --> 00:24:26.620 And so I'll tell you, part of my definition and part of my formulation comes from the practical things that you've put in front of me to see. 00:24:26.820 --> 00:24:37.480 So let me start with if I'm drawing a picture, I draw a big circle on my page and that big circle is labeled digital. 00:24:38.780 --> 00:24:56.060 And just to keep it simple for me, if it involves ones and zeros electronically in circuits, then it's inside that big circle of digital, which ranges from digital video to live streaming to podcasting the way people are going to hear it here. 00:24:56.180 --> 00:25:07.600 If it if the way people are seeing it and getting exposed to it is through electronic ones and zeros in a circuit that get turned into audio and video, then I'm calling that digital. 00:25:08.700 --> 00:25:13.880 So within that bigger circle, for me, there's a smaller circle. 00:25:13.880 --> 00:25:17.040 There's a lot of circles inside of it, but there's a smaller circle. 00:25:17.420 --> 00:25:23.720 And that's where I would put virtual reality as a circle within the digital circle. 00:25:24.840 --> 00:25:34.880 And and I think the aha that I've had this past year on the things you've put in front of me are the word virtual and the word reality. 00:25:35.140 --> 00:25:44.760 If you just go back over the last take whatever time period you want, 100 years, then go to 75 and 50 and 25 and the last five years. 00:25:45.360 --> 00:26:02.800 What we can all absolutely agree on is that over whatever period of time you want to pick the gap between virtual virtual, meaning the ones and zeros part of the digital and reality, the physical reality world. 00:26:03.960 --> 00:26:05.640 That gap is closing. 00:26:06.640 --> 00:26:13.020 And there's like and the words virtual and virtual and reality are getting closer and closer together. 00:26:13.900 --> 00:26:22.080 We're seeing you want to go invest in the very best possible portfolio of stock investments you can invest in right now. 00:26:22.380 --> 00:26:33.140 Go find the top five stocks that are working on the closing the gap between virtual and reality with things like special gloves and aroma machines. 00:26:33.140 --> 00:26:42.200 And sound machines and vests and the different technologies that are completely focused on how you close that gap between virtual and reality. 00:26:42.200 --> 00:26:44.180 That's where you want to go invest your money. 00:26:44.180 --> 00:26:46.160 But here's the more important thing. 00:26:46.780 --> 00:26:49.560 The speed at which that gap is closing. 00:26:50.700 --> 00:26:56.300 A hundred years ago, there wasn't much difference between 100 years and 99 years ago. 00:26:56.880 --> 00:27:01.000 There wasn't even a lot of difference between 100 years ago and 90 years ago. 00:27:01.820 --> 00:27:05.440 But now go to 25 years ago. 00:27:05.940 --> 00:27:10.540 Every year in the last 25 years, you can discernibly see the gap closing. 00:27:10.540 --> 00:27:20.000 And now every year for the last five years, much more rapidly than what it was any time in the previous 95. 00:27:20.620 --> 00:27:31.340 And now if you project it into the future, the next five years are going to, I don't even know how we wrap our brain around how the gap is closing over the next five years. 00:27:31.520 --> 00:27:43.340 And that's the part that the church has either got to figure out it needs to get in front of it or be part of it or ride it, but not try to throw itself in front of it and get in the way of it kind of thing. 00:27:43.580 --> 00:27:47.280 I'm maybe a little more, and it's all crapshoot, right? 00:27:47.280 --> 00:27:56.660 But I'm a little more, I think, towards this angle of, I actually, I think the larger bubble is meta and digital is a smaller piece within. 00:27:56.840 --> 00:28:04.880 Because I just, I think the lines are going to be so blurred between physical and meta, between virtual and real. 00:28:05.320 --> 00:28:08.360 I just maybe lean a little more extreme on that, at least where we're going. 00:28:08.480 --> 00:28:09.540 And everything's a pendulum. 00:28:09.640 --> 00:28:11.300 It's going to get there eventually. 00:28:12.020 --> 00:28:14.360 But I love, I love that perspective. 00:28:14.520 --> 00:28:27.540 I think the thing that excites me the most about churches that are taking advantage of the metaverse right now, and I'm talking DJ Soto, VR Church, Jason Poling, Cornerstone, both those guys have been on the podcast. 00:28:27.800 --> 00:28:34.520 Stuart up at Lakeland, we've had him on the podcast too within the past months. 00:28:35.500 --> 00:28:41.100 They all tell me they reach a different type of person through their metaverse. 00:28:41.100 --> 00:28:43.320 Call it missions, call it church, whatever you need to. 00:28:43.660 --> 00:28:50.460 They're reaching a different type of person through the metaverse than is in the, that attends their physical campuses. 00:28:50.600 --> 00:29:00.280 Well, DJ doesn't have a physical campus, but DJ would say 80 to 85% of the people that attend VR Church are agnostics, atheists. 00:29:00.940 --> 00:29:11.540 Jason Poling has told me 75% to 80% of the people that attend Cornerstone VR, his church's virtual reality campus, are de-churched, burned by the church. 00:29:11.600 --> 00:29:14.500 And the first step back to the Bride of Christ is through the goggles. 00:29:15.060 --> 00:29:25.220 I literally, just this morning, I was on with the leadership up at Lakeland VR, talking with Stuart and the lead pastor, Josh Asmuth. 00:29:25.720 --> 00:29:30.560 And they told me, they said, Jeff, we had 110 people. 00:29:30.660 --> 00:29:32.440 Maybe it was 115, somewhere in there. 00:29:32.620 --> 00:29:34.600 110, 115, 110. 00:29:35.020 --> 00:29:38.920 110 people attend Christmas services in virtual reality. 00:29:39.660 --> 00:29:43.520 108 of them do not even live in Minnesota. 00:29:43.980 --> 00:29:50.500 The majority of the crowd isn't coming to the building where their church's physical campus is. 00:29:50.500 --> 00:30:04.380 And so we're seeing that these churches are really effectively connecting with and beginning the process of discipling a different type of person than what they're doing in the physical ministry space. 00:30:06.420 --> 00:30:13.240 So I just, I love these stories of how churches are starting to explore and experiment here. 00:30:13.360 --> 00:30:15.040 So Todd, let me ask you this question here. 00:30:15.680 --> 00:30:24.460 Is, and this is opinion, this is hypothetical, this is futurist, this is, you know, this is nobody saying this is concrete. 00:30:25.180 --> 00:30:31.280 Does, if you look into the future, does metaverse, does this replace what's happening physical? 00:30:31.700 --> 00:30:34.180 Does this complement what's happening physical? 00:30:35.260 --> 00:30:37.320 And we were talking about healthy relationships earlier. 00:30:37.320 --> 00:30:43.580 What are maybe some of these healthy relationships between the physical church and maybe some of these meta church experiments? 00:30:43.740 --> 00:30:44.700 What, what do you think in here? 00:30:44.900 --> 00:30:46.640 Well, you said it, but once again, it's opinion. 00:30:46.800 --> 00:30:47.680 So let's just be clear. 00:30:47.760 --> 00:30:49.200 We're talking opinions here. 00:30:50.420 --> 00:30:58.640 I can't help but think, Jeff, like, if I take, you know, what does Todd Wilson thinks going to happen over the next several years? 00:30:58.840 --> 00:31:01.340 You know, what do I think is going to happen? 00:31:02.700 --> 00:31:14.940 I go back to, I'm losing track of timeline, but let's say 20, 30 years ago when, at whatever point, traditional music was the predominant music on Sunday morning. 00:31:15.020 --> 00:31:23.860 You know, maybe it's the choir, it's, you know, out of the hymn book, but a very traditional kind of music service. 00:31:24.200 --> 00:31:30.320 And as contemporary music came into the mainstay, it didn't just flip the switch overnight. 00:31:30.560 --> 00:31:36.920 We didn't go from, you know, 100% churches are traditional to 100% are contemporary. 00:31:37.180 --> 00:31:47.320 There was a transition period where you'd show up on Sunday morning to an 8 o'clock service that was traditional, and then the 9.30 service was contemporary. 00:31:47.740 --> 00:31:50.360 There was a segregation that happened. 00:31:51.020 --> 00:32:01.400 And I just can't imagine, most people that are listening might be thinking, oh, VR means I'm staying home, drinking my coffee, doing it from home, wherever I am in the world. 00:32:01.700 --> 00:32:03.380 But that's not the case. 00:32:03.700 --> 00:32:20.760 What if the transitional part of what helps VR become more mainstay is people show up on Sunday morning, they grab their coffee, they hug people, they have the conversation in the lobby, and now they walk down the hall to go to the auditorium. 00:32:21.820 --> 00:32:38.880 Some people make a left-hand turn into the auditorium where there's a live preacher, and, you know, they preach about the parting of the Red Sea and the walking through the Red Sea, and it's a traditional service as we know it right now, and people are thrilled with it. 00:32:39.240 --> 00:32:53.040 And other people make a right-hand turn, and as they go into the auditorium to the right, they've either got their VR headsets with them, or they pick up headsets as they go in, and just like going to a 3D movie, they go into the auditorium. 00:32:53.040 --> 00:33:12.400 They're there physically, they get the same sermon, the parting of the Red Sea, but instead of somebody just reading out of the Bible, they're actually experiencing and walking through the parting of the Red Sea as part of a VR experience that's live. 00:33:13.040 --> 00:33:20.720 I just can't imagine that that's not going to be the first—I mean, I think we're going to have the all-VR where people don't physically go somewhere. 00:33:20.820 --> 00:33:34.160 Obviously, that's happening, but when you're really talking about the current brick-and-mortar churches, most of them aren't going to just go from brick-and-mortar to, boom, 100% VR-only expression. 00:33:34.640 --> 00:33:42.000 They're going to see VR venues as a mission post-outpost, and so we've got to fill in the blank. 00:33:42.000 --> 00:33:44.160 We've got to do this to reach the next generation. 00:33:44.400 --> 00:33:47.300 We've got to do this as an option because other churches are doing it. 00:33:47.820 --> 00:33:52.860 For all the different reasons, the VR option is going to become an option. 00:33:54.040 --> 00:34:02.340 It's hard—I could see us getting to a point in the future where the majority of the expression is VR. 00:34:03.240 --> 00:34:11.980 It is hard for me to get my head around completely eliminating the physical option, even if it's a physical option that you get there. 00:34:12.000 --> 00:34:13.520 And you do VR when you get there. 00:34:14.620 --> 00:34:18.660 But, you know, that doesn't mean it's not possible. 00:34:19.120 --> 00:34:27.480 It's interesting to see how I think, you know, and even looking forward into the future, I think there's just more options on the table. 00:34:27.960 --> 00:34:29.480 You've got a lot of physical churches. 00:34:29.480 --> 00:34:34.640 Obviously, that's been the mainstay for decades, if not centuries, here in the West. 00:34:35.120 --> 00:34:54.260 And you're seeing a growth in microchurch and some of the things that Rob Wagner and others like him, Brian Sanders, Tampa Underground, have really brought in this movement of micro, which is offering a different option that's reaching a different type of person. 00:34:54.400 --> 00:35:02.180 And we've told so many of those digital and meta stories here on the podcast. 00:35:02.380 --> 00:35:05.700 It's like for us to be really effective in connecting with people. 00:35:05.920 --> 00:35:22.960 It's all about creating multiple options, going multimodal and challenging churches to do like what Cornerstone, VR, Jason Poling or like Stuart and Josh up in Lakeland, where they're just offering multiple options, realizing it's reaching different people. 00:35:23.260 --> 00:35:25.320 Were you a Star Trek Next Generation person? 00:35:25.660 --> 00:35:26.820 I was not. 00:35:27.020 --> 00:35:32.460 It's funny, I was just reading an article about Riker earlier today, but go ahead, give me the analogy. 00:35:32.900 --> 00:35:33.540 Next Generation. 00:35:33.680 --> 00:35:41.060 The hologram option that was at Star Trek The Next Generation, it's present day microchurch meeting meta. 00:35:41.560 --> 00:35:53.520 Like what would happen on the ship is three or four of the crew would come together at the hologram, physically come together at the hologram and enter into the virtual reality space together. 00:35:54.260 --> 00:35:56.780 Well, what if that's the future of a microchurch? 00:35:57.020 --> 00:36:03.260 Three or more people come together into their community and they enter into the virtual reality space. 00:36:03.700 --> 00:36:07.140 It's Star Trek The Next Generation was just ahead of their time. 00:36:07.440 --> 00:36:07.840 There you go. 00:36:07.960 --> 00:36:09.020 Thank you very much. 00:36:09.300 --> 00:36:11.140 I'm trying to think of the creator's name. 00:36:11.920 --> 00:36:13.480 Gene Roddenberry was the original. 00:36:13.700 --> 00:36:14.480 Roddenberry, right. 00:36:14.840 --> 00:36:17.100 He's actually, he's got family down here in Miami. 00:36:17.780 --> 00:36:19.260 My wife's friends are friends or somebody. 00:36:19.920 --> 00:36:22.020 But anyway, very, very, very cool. 00:36:22.080 --> 00:36:23.200 And it was the holodeck. 00:36:23.320 --> 00:36:25.960 Some Star Trek geek's probably freaking out right now. 00:36:25.960 --> 00:36:26.980 It's holodeck. 00:36:27.020 --> 00:36:27.620 We got you. 00:36:27.700 --> 00:36:28.280 We understand. 00:36:28.280 --> 00:36:31.240 We can move on with that. 00:36:31.600 --> 00:36:32.620 Let me ask this question. 00:36:33.080 --> 00:36:41.300 And this may pivot back because I know one of your values is staff health and emotionally healthy is a thing. 00:36:42.640 --> 00:36:46.500 Let me ask, like, if a pastor has concerns, I get this a lot. 00:36:47.240 --> 00:36:51.460 Well, Jeff, how are we addressing like the mental health concerns? 00:36:51.700 --> 00:37:02.900 Like people doing church, existing in the metaverse and embracing that lifestyle, that community in that space? 00:37:03.400 --> 00:37:06.580 Like, is that is it emotionally healthy for it to do that? 00:37:06.660 --> 00:37:08.140 Are we are we sure on that? 00:37:08.580 --> 00:37:09.580 Are you comfortable, Todd? 00:37:09.660 --> 00:37:10.080 Like what? 00:37:10.400 --> 00:37:13.900 Well, how would you respond or how have you responded into those types of conversations? 00:37:14.000 --> 00:37:16.580 Well, I think it's an important question. 00:37:17.220 --> 00:37:20.420 And I don't know that there's necessarily an easy answer. 00:37:20.560 --> 00:37:40.260 I mean, if we if we think about what the elements of an emotionally healthy set of relationships are, I mean, on one part of it is the peer to peer fellowship part of friendship relationships. 00:37:40.260 --> 00:37:51.040 People in your life who are engaging your life, who know what's going on with you and are there to support you in whatever you're going through. 00:37:51.140 --> 00:37:52.780 And we'll come back to that in a second. 00:37:53.740 --> 00:37:58.820 I think on the other end of the spectrum would be even the like the professional help. 00:37:58.820 --> 00:38:10.000 If somebody needs professional help on something, getting them plugged into account, you know, where a lot of brick and mortar churches might have a resident counselor or resident help or a process. 00:38:10.000 --> 00:38:12.080 For getting people plugged in to help. 00:38:12.360 --> 00:38:16.280 And so what does that look like in a virtual space? 00:38:16.340 --> 00:38:19.580 Let's say you had a very strong network of relationships. 00:38:20.720 --> 00:38:27.140 And that set of relationships concludes, you know, Jeff, you really need some professional help on something. 00:38:27.680 --> 00:38:29.500 How does that process work? 00:38:29.540 --> 00:38:33.080 Is it, you know, in a virtual thing versus in brick and mortar? 00:38:33.160 --> 00:38:35.900 And I think those are fair and important questions. 00:38:35.900 --> 00:38:44.500 I think the good news is that pioneers like DJ Soto, you referred to, I think it was DJ, you said 115 people at a Christmas. 00:38:45.080 --> 00:38:48.960 Oh, that was actually Lakeland Church, Stuart and Josh. 00:38:49.180 --> 00:38:49.700 Yeah, Lakeland. 00:38:49.800 --> 00:38:49.980 Right. 00:38:50.120 --> 00:39:01.100 So I think we've got enough churches that are engaging in this now that I think those pioneers are going to have to be the ones that are really helping us answer that question. 00:39:01.220 --> 00:39:03.420 What's it look like to get people plugged in? 00:39:03.700 --> 00:39:05.840 I think there is a little bit of a misnomer. 00:39:06.480 --> 00:39:12.500 You know, let's learn from the gaming community a little bit, like the community of gamers that are out there. 00:39:13.160 --> 00:39:31.440 I think you could make an argument that the relational network of the way gamers get plugged in relationally to a network, in some ways you could argue, is a deeper set of friendships and relationships and intimacy than what happens in a physical small group in a church a lot of times. 00:39:32.580 --> 00:39:35.240 Like there's actually an intimacy that's there. 00:39:36.040 --> 00:39:46.160 Now, because you're not physically in the same space, you're not able to go over coffee, that issue of how do you plug somebody into professional help if they need it. 00:39:46.220 --> 00:39:51.560 I mean, I think those are things that are going to have to, we can't let those get lost in the conversation here. 00:39:51.800 --> 00:39:56.320 Yeah, there's certainly, there's no clear answer right now, as we can say it that way. 00:39:57.080 --> 00:40:08.060 You know, and that's one of the reasons why I've enjoyed working with Mindy Caliguire with Soul Care and some of those others, really just trying to find out the answer to that. 00:40:08.220 --> 00:40:15.360 And I would even challenge us as the church, maybe we shouldn't run away because there's no answer. 00:40:15.500 --> 00:40:28.360 Maybe we should be part of finding the answer to that, which is why I'm really excited working through Leadership Network, LN, some of the stuff we're doing with Digital Church Network and the Church Digital. 00:40:28.360 --> 00:40:40.380 Really trying to dive into the mental health conversation, trying to discover what actually happens if there was a digital only or a meta only church. 00:40:40.840 --> 00:40:44.180 People like DJ Soto, DJ's been doing this six plus years. 00:40:44.740 --> 00:40:49.760 Like if anybody's got clarity on that answer today in 2022, it's DJ Soto. 00:40:49.760 --> 00:40:53.940 And so starting to, who ironically I've got a call with in 30 minutes. 00:40:54.260 --> 00:41:02.840 And so, but it's starting to really examine some of the stories and some of the findings that these early adopters are finding and digging into it. 00:41:03.020 --> 00:41:17.060 It's kind of weird to think about, but you think through the pandemic, one of the things that's happened is many of us for a period of time got used to the telemed appointments where you get on Zoom and do your doctor's appointment on Zoom. 00:41:18.200 --> 00:41:38.700 You've got to wonder when we're talking about virtual reality churches, I mean, and just to be clear, in virtual reality where someone can create their own city with their own businesses, I mean, where things are headed, where you can create sort of the village, if you will. 00:41:39.180 --> 00:41:41.460 And one of the elements of that is a church. 00:41:42.220 --> 00:41:45.880 So are we actually going to see a market with doctors? 00:41:46.260 --> 00:42:00.620 I mean, how fascinating is it if we jumped out of the church space for a minute and if you and I were consultants to doctors, what does it look like to be consulting the medical industry right now in virtual reality? 00:42:01.180 --> 00:42:18.240 Are we going to end up with mental health providers that have VR practices, like literally VR practices that can be plugged into virtual reality space that are, you know, and now just let your brain go. 00:42:18.340 --> 00:42:23.580 And then are there franchises of that in meta space or how does it, how does that whole thing work? 00:42:23.640 --> 00:42:36.560 When you just start thinking about how the medical industry works right now as, you know, hospitals with collections of doctors and now, what does that look like in virtual reality? 00:42:36.920 --> 00:42:39.160 Yeah, I don't know that HIPAA is ready for that yet. 00:42:39.720 --> 00:42:40.380 Maybe it is. 00:42:40.440 --> 00:42:41.300 I haven't heard. 00:42:41.420 --> 00:42:46.660 I mean, I'm on board of directors for a telemedicine organization. 00:42:46.660 --> 00:42:50.540 So obviously, I know telemedicine has been going like crazy gangbusters. 00:42:51.220 --> 00:42:53.080 But I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't know meta. 00:42:53.160 --> 00:42:55.940 That's, that's a really interesting thought. 00:42:56.220 --> 00:42:57.600 Let's get practical here. 00:42:58.820 --> 00:43:04.200 So there, there's a staff person or, you know, a high level volunteer, low level volunteer. 00:43:04.640 --> 00:43:14.940 There's a person that's excited about doing meta, about exploring, about experimenting, about trying to do church looking meta as a mission field. 00:43:15.320 --> 00:43:16.260 They want to go. 00:43:17.220 --> 00:43:25.400 The lead pastor of the church, maybe somebody on the board of directors, elder, whatever, not excited about it, not wanting to do it. 00:43:25.520 --> 00:43:31.840 Maybe, maybe they're one of these where the leadership thinks that all technology, all new technologies comes from Satan. 00:43:31.980 --> 00:43:32.320 I don't know. 00:43:32.700 --> 00:43:38.480 But the point is, is that the question I want to ask is, how would you advise this person? 00:43:38.680 --> 00:43:40.960 Somebody's wanting to, to explore this space. 00:43:41.240 --> 00:43:43.060 Leadership's not on board. 00:43:44.580 --> 00:43:46.040 What advice would you give to them? 00:43:46.040 --> 00:43:49.020 You know, there's a couple of things that jumped the mind for me. 00:43:49.140 --> 00:43:54.720 I mean, I think one element is, you know, obviously we've got to be respectful of leadership. 00:43:55.000 --> 00:44:03.440 So I, I, you know, I don't think the right thing to do is just violate what you're being directed or to go against what the leadership is saying. 00:44:03.500 --> 00:44:05.500 I think you've got to figure out how to work within it. 00:44:05.500 --> 00:44:14.540 Now, to that end, it seems like the first issue is understanding what the resistance is about. 00:44:15.180 --> 00:44:17.940 Is it, it is a little bit different. 00:44:18.280 --> 00:44:26.740 I mean, we've joked about it a couple of times, but if there's literally a serious position of, you know, this VR stuff is of Satan. 00:44:26.980 --> 00:44:29.160 It's like satanic, okay? 00:44:29.860 --> 00:44:45.140 That's different than if it's running into resistance because it's just, you know, you know, we got a lot on our plate and this is an unknown and it's not, you know, there, there's the unknown factor and people were busy and this doesn't fit the priority list. 00:44:45.140 --> 00:44:47.500 Those are two different scenarios. 00:44:47.640 --> 00:44:56.200 So I think this leader you're talking about has got to understand what the real motive of their boss, you know, being resistant is at the time. 00:44:56.440 --> 00:45:11.700 And, and let's say if, if it's the, if it's the satanic end of the spectrum, like there is absolutely a, you know, a strong conviction of leadership, then I think you've got to absolutely be even more careful about how you're maneuvering it. 00:45:12.020 --> 00:45:21.180 And ultimately, if you were feeling called enough to it, at some point, you got to think about, are you going to have to leave or go somewhere else to be able to do it? 00:45:21.220 --> 00:45:28.240 But I don't know that I would suggest getting into a lot of fights in that environment over it. 00:45:28.280 --> 00:45:34.540 I think the issue is you've either got to skip it or find another place to do your work. 00:45:34.840 --> 00:45:41.620 Now, on the end of the spectrum, though, where you're just running into normal resistance to change. 00:45:42.520 --> 00:45:45.460 I mean, I think you've got a whole lot more options there. 00:45:45.820 --> 00:45:51.560 I mean, on one end of the spectrum, you could take a proposal to the leadership. 00:45:52.340 --> 00:45:58.000 And I think it's always better to actually take a proposal, an actionable proposal that somebody can say yes to. 00:45:58.000 --> 00:46:06.100 And instead of it being a complete change everything, I would take a few baby steps on that proposal. 00:46:06.100 --> 00:46:14.480 Like, how do we just experiment with a one-time project with these goals and I'll run it and here's what it'll cost. 00:46:14.740 --> 00:46:19.360 And, you know, it's how do you make it hard to say no, I guess is what I'm saying. 00:46:19.360 --> 00:46:24.700 Like, it's such a concrete, specific step that it would hard to be saying no. 00:46:25.060 --> 00:46:27.340 And here's what I would do in designing that. 00:46:28.040 --> 00:46:40.560 If you do get a no, I would have designed it in a way that option B is I could, in fact, just go do this on my own separate from the church, meaning I do it in my spare time. 00:46:40.800 --> 00:46:47.060 Like, it's a project that I'm going to implement as my own thing, not under the banner of the church. 00:46:47.060 --> 00:46:48.340 I'm not going to call it the church. 00:46:48.340 --> 00:46:51.680 I'm going to go do it as my own thing separately. 00:46:52.320 --> 00:46:52.860 That's interesting. 00:46:52.960 --> 00:46:58.520 I've actually had a couple of friends that have done that approach that had a calling towards Mehta. 00:46:58.960 --> 00:47:06.660 They were on staff at a church, one in particular down here in South Florida, was on staff at a church and the leadership just wasn't seeing it. 00:47:06.840 --> 00:47:15.420 And so he broke off and just started doing the experiment outside of the church where he was on staff working. 00:47:16.080 --> 00:47:23.600 Within a year, he actually got hired by another church, and he's now operating as one of the few meta church pastors in America today. 00:47:23.740 --> 00:47:25.300 And it's a really fascinating story. 00:47:25.800 --> 00:47:32.280 But it comes around, you know, at least in context of my friend, he followed his heart and where he felt like God was leading, 00:47:32.280 --> 00:47:39.820 even though at some point he's like, this doesn't keep me where I am, but I still feel like God's calling me to do this. 00:47:39.820 --> 00:47:44.580 So I'm going to go, even if it means that I lose something along the way. 00:47:45.420 --> 00:47:49.740 And God took him along the path and guided his steps. 00:47:50.340 --> 00:47:51.120 And so fascinating. 00:47:51.300 --> 00:47:52.260 It's some great advice. 00:47:52.500 --> 00:47:55.600 And, you know, I've literally seen that work in real time. 00:47:56.020 --> 00:48:03.360 I think, Jeff, we hit on this earlier, but the power of words and the specific language that you use on something, 00:48:03.440 --> 00:48:07.960 that's the other thing I would encourage this person that you're referring to to be careful about, 00:48:08.180 --> 00:48:12.100 is if I go back and play off of something you said earlier, 00:48:12.100 --> 00:48:17.640 you said that the Lakeland church did a Christmas Eve church, 00:48:17.920 --> 00:48:23.880 your words were a church service that had 110, maybe 115 people at it, 00:48:23.940 --> 00:48:27.060 many of whom don't normally go to church with da-da-da-da-da, okay? 00:48:27.820 --> 00:48:32.160 If I take all those words and I say, now, what are the words and all that, 00:48:32.480 --> 00:48:37.040 that can be, can create friction, can create tension, can create concern? 00:48:37.040 --> 00:48:43.060 And I hate to say it, but it's the word church is what ends up creating the tension. 00:48:43.700 --> 00:48:48.400 If I took everything you said and I turned it into a proposal of, 00:48:48.900 --> 00:48:52.600 man, we want to do a Christmas outreach event 00:48:52.600 --> 00:48:56.780 that we're going to experiment in the virtual space, 00:48:56.820 --> 00:48:59.680 trying to connect with over a hundred people. 00:49:00.540 --> 00:49:04.280 And it's not going to cost us more than a few hundred dollars to do. 00:49:04.280 --> 00:49:06.680 And we believe that at this outreach event, 00:49:06.680 --> 00:49:10.100 we can attract over a hundred people into what we're doing. 00:49:10.740 --> 00:49:15.140 That opens the door to a whole lot more people when it's an outreach event 00:49:15.140 --> 00:49:19.220 than when it's a competition church thing that people don't understand. 00:49:19.820 --> 00:49:22.340 So again, I'm not wanting to water anything down. 00:49:22.420 --> 00:49:23.720 I just think we have to be, 00:49:24.460 --> 00:49:28.360 we have to face the reality that the words we use in all of this 00:49:28.360 --> 00:49:33.800 are what end up creating the quick barriers for people on things. 00:49:34.280 --> 00:49:37.360 Yeah, and that even gets back to that ecclesiology that, you know, 00:49:37.500 --> 00:49:43.380 the mission field is so much more of a welcoming and easier conversation, 00:49:43.500 --> 00:49:44.680 a starting point maybe. 00:49:44.680 --> 00:49:48.020 Well, and then you push the mission field to the point of its limits 00:49:48.020 --> 00:49:52.580 where you discover what people's, where do they put up the barriers 00:49:52.580 --> 00:49:54.400 if you start with the mission field? 00:49:54.500 --> 00:49:56.380 Because the mission field part of it, 00:49:56.440 --> 00:49:59.500 you should be able to draw a wider audience of people 00:49:59.500 --> 00:50:01.400 into the mission field part of it. 00:50:02.060 --> 00:50:03.100 And then you just figure out. 00:50:03.260 --> 00:50:08.020 And likewise, the words outreach events or outreach activities 00:50:08.020 --> 00:50:09.980 are even safer than mission field. 00:50:10.840 --> 00:50:13.480 So, I mean, that's the irony of this is that 00:50:13.480 --> 00:50:15.700 many of the things we're talking about, 00:50:15.760 --> 00:50:16.980 we could put any of the labels on. 00:50:17.060 --> 00:50:18.460 We could put outreach event. 00:50:18.720 --> 00:50:20.480 We could put mission field. 00:50:20.720 --> 00:50:22.780 We could put digital opportunity. 00:50:23.820 --> 00:50:26.560 It's not until we start calling it church 00:50:26.560 --> 00:50:28.740 that all of a sudden, a lot of times, 00:50:28.880 --> 00:50:30.500 whoo, the red flags go up. 00:50:30.920 --> 00:50:33.400 Even today, I think it was today, at least I got it today. 00:50:33.600 --> 00:50:36.760 Outreach Magazine published an article by Phil Cook, 00:50:36.880 --> 00:50:40.680 The Changing Face of Missions in the Digital Age. 00:50:41.440 --> 00:50:44.400 And so even Outreach Magazine's publicly acknowledging here 00:50:44.400 --> 00:50:47.180 the opportunities in digital in their context, 00:50:47.300 --> 00:50:49.520 but metas as well with that. 00:50:49.700 --> 00:50:51.660 So, hey, we'll put that link in the show notes. 00:50:52.640 --> 00:50:54.540 But Todd, hey, this has been awesome, man. 00:50:54.600 --> 00:50:57.660 I've loved hanging out with you in the midst of roofers, 00:50:57.760 --> 00:50:59.380 banging, and all sorts of fun stuff. 00:51:00.060 --> 00:51:01.700 But I have loved this conversation. 00:51:02.400 --> 00:51:04.860 Hey, any closing thoughts as we're landing the plane here? 00:51:05.440 --> 00:51:07.400 Just grateful for what you're doing, Jeff. 00:51:07.480 --> 00:51:09.780 Grateful to have you joining us at Leadership Network 00:51:09.780 --> 00:51:10.920 and really excited. 00:51:11.600 --> 00:51:16.200 I can't wait to maybe have a follow-up conversation, 00:51:16.320 --> 00:51:18.420 a one-year anniversary from this conversation, 00:51:18.420 --> 00:51:20.920 for us to talk about and celebrate 00:51:20.920 --> 00:51:22.380 what's happened in the past year 00:51:22.380 --> 00:51:25.240 and how things are actually different 00:51:25.240 --> 00:51:26.680 than what we thought they would be. 00:51:26.780 --> 00:51:28.680 But thank you for being on the journey with us. 00:51:29.080 --> 00:51:29.400 Love it. 00:51:29.500 --> 00:51:30.420 Looking forward to it. 00:51:30.580 --> 00:51:33.660 And between now and this time in 2023, 00:51:33.660 --> 00:51:35.740 I'm sure things will change two or three times 00:51:35.740 --> 00:51:39.240 as per current norm. 00:51:39.540 --> 00:51:41.660 So, hey, but we're going to land the plane here. 00:51:42.180 --> 00:51:44.700 Todd, sir, thank you for jumping on this podcast with us. 00:51:45.140 --> 00:51:48.260 This is Jeff with the Church Digital wrapping up. 00:51:48.320 --> 00:51:49.760 And now, Leadership Network. 00:51:50.140 --> 00:51:51.820 And Lord knows what else is coming up, 00:51:51.860 --> 00:51:55.080 but I'm excited about where the Lord is leading 00:51:55.080 --> 00:51:56.080 and the doors that are opening 00:51:56.080 --> 00:51:59.380 and championing being the evangelist for Meta, 00:51:59.460 --> 00:52:02.040 for Leadership Network and the many other things to come. 00:52:02.340 --> 00:52:02.940 But we're going to wrap. 00:52:03.080 --> 00:52:03.620 Hey, this is Jeff. 00:52:03.700 --> 00:52:05.360 Thanks for joining us here on the pod. 00:52:05.780 --> 00:52:06.780 We'll see you next time on the show. 00:52:07.000 --> 00:52:07.500 Y'all have a good day.