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 Welcome to the Church Digital Podcast.

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 Through this podcast, learn about how God is using technology and innovation

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 in digital and digital environments around the world.

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 Our goal? To help churches like yours learn to be the church digitally.

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 Our heart? That churches like yours will discover a newfound focus on disciple-making

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 that will revolutionize your church.

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 And now, your host, here's Jeff Reed.

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 All right, hey, welcome to episode 202 of the Church Digital Podcast.

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 Jeff here, founder of the Church Digital and Digital Church Network.

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 And really, before we even get into the podcast, I feel like I just really want to celebrate

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 some of the stuff that's happening here with the Digital Church Network.

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 We're going to be featuring that in future episodes and really season three

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 coming up right around the corners where we're going to be doing a deep dive,

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 talking about a lot of the philosophy and the mindset behind creating movements

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 centered around what's happening with the Digital Church Network.

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 And so I want to do this.

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 We're having a couple introductory meetings.

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 You know, I was talking, we're partnering with New Thing Network.

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 And New Thing is actually the vehicle that's really growing a lot of our movement pieces.

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 And so Dave Ferguson and the team over there, New Thing's going to be doing a talk with us

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 on February 21st.

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 And I just was texting right before I jumped on this.

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 Rob Wagner is going to be coming on in March and doing this.

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 So there's some incredible opportunities to learn about movement and talk about what that

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 can look like in digital space and meta space and try to figure out some next steps.

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 And so if you're interested in this, shameless plug here for Digital Church Network.

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 Not shameless.

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 Sign up.

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 I'm so, the guy's so excited.

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 It's my guest here.

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 He's already jumping in before I've introduced him.

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 John, calm down.

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 We'll get there in a second.

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 But no, listen, digitalchurch.network.

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 Go to the website, digitalchurch.network.

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 We'll put a link in the show notes.

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 But if you're interested, let's get you plugged in and let's start moving towards creating

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 some of these movements in digital and meta space.

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 Well, hey, that's nice.

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 And we're going to feature more of that in the weeks to come.

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 Keep checking out digitalchurch.network.

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 Hey, did I mention there's a website, digitalchurch.network.

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 Before anybody else leaves, hangs up on this podcast to go to digitalchurch.network, we

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 should probably actually go ahead and do the podcast.

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 So for the remainder of season two here for the month of February, we are featuring a takeover.

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 We talked about this, you know, where we, the Church Digital, we're launching a digital

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 church network and or excuse me.

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 Yeah, well, no, a podcast network.

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 Did I mention digitalchurch.network?

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 But we're launching a podcast network, a different type of network.

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 And as a result of that, we're really starting to feature a lot of other content creators

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 and helping to platform others that really have an interesting message to say when talking

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 about church online, digital church, meta church, digital discipleship, digital as a mission

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 field.

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 A lot of these things that we resonate here with Church Digital.

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 And last week was Tom Pounder with episode 201.

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 The TCD sidekick.

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 Tom's been with us and actually helped me birth the podcast network back in November of 21.

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 And today we're bringing in one of the new people we're kind of championing here in this

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 cause.

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 And that's John Pyle.

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 Hey, John, how are you doing?

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 Hello.

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 Sorry, I jumped in early.

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 I was just so excited.

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 You got me all fired up with new things.

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 Man, listen, if there's a there's a lot to be excited about here in digital church.

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 One of the values here with the network is, man, we want to go with the goers.

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 And so often.

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 And really, that's been a radical shift for me within the past six or eight months where

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 it's, you know, we're we're in the season.

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 And I don't know how many articles I can read in the different publications about how church

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 online is horrible.

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 It's the worst thing ever.

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 When are we?

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 Why can't we just meet physically?

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 And and then but then I'm seeing stories of life change in the ministry of what's what's

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 happening.

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 And I'm hearing about people that are being discipled in this space and people that are

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 moving past the consumerism approach of digital moving past maybe some more of a healthier

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 approach towards digital ministry than just the isolation that so many of our churches

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 stumbled into without realizing there's a better solution.

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 And and really, John, I mean, this is that's a side tangent.

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 But that's really why I was so excited about bringing you into this podcast network and and

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 helping to really platform and try to get more people to pay attention to some of the stuff

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 that you were saying.

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 We we jumped on and I don't even know if you know this part of the story, but some late

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 last year, October, November, I had this idea for for a podcast.

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 And the idea was centered around, man, digital pastors, they never get a break.

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 And especially coming into the Christmas season, it was like, hey, I want to do this episode

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 for digital pastors who never get vacation, never get downtime.

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 They're always on the clock.

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 Social media is always, always a thing.

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 And so there's never that nine to five with with a digital pastor.

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 So I had this idea for a podcast episode and I actually went to try to find somebody to be

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 the guest for that.

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 And John, I want confession hour here for the show.

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 You were not my first choice.

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 You were not my second choice.

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 You were not even my third choice.

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 You were number four.

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 But was what was fascinating was three other people were like, no, I don't want to have that

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 conversation.

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 You were the guy that was like, heck, yeah, I'm all about that.

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 Let's go.

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 And for me, that was and it was it was a great podcast.

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 We'll link to it in the show notes.

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 But it really stood out to me like your passion in this space and your understanding towards

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 the mental health and the stability and the soul care for us as pastors and ministers and

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 also the people that we're doing ministry with.

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 Well, man.

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 OK, as a mediocre athlete growing up, I know that when you get a chance off the bench, you've

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 got to be ready.

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 This is my Tom Brady moment, baby.

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 Bring me off the bench.

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 Eighth round draft pick.

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 I'm slinging it out there.

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 Well, but this this matters to me because, you know, first of all, I understand what you're

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 saying about all the articles about how digital church is terrible and we're awful people and

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 all that stuff.

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 Anyway, I know that that's not exactly what they're saying, but I'm like, y'all, the first

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 church planters were networked through non-physical means.

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 It's like, who do you think Paul's writing the letter to the people that he meets with

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 every week?

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 Come on.

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 Like the church is founded on like innovation.

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 Anyway, I could go off on that.

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 But so much of what I'm seeing from church world, right?

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 This is my 10th year working at City Church coming up on 11, actually coming up on 11 this

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 year and what I've seen in that church world is the burnout and the challenge of ministry

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 is a take.

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 It doesn't matter how good you are at it or how easy it is or how long you've been doing

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 it.

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 If you're pouring your life out, it eventually catches up to you if you're not being fed and

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 if you're not receiving at the same or a higher rate.

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 And so I just see people burnt out all the time and digital, it feels like it does it

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 faster, right?

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 That's what digital does.

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 Digital does everything faster and it burns you out faster because it can feel like you're

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 always on and there's always a problem to solve.

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 There's always a message.

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 There's always a text.

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 There's always a post.

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 There's all.

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 I mean, you could schedule out for three years your social media stuff.

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 Like there's always stuff that you can do and so I just, I feel like at some point, and

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 this is going back to almost pre-digital kind of stuff, like one of the clear things that

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 God spoke to me is my people are not expendable and every single person matters, every single

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 person.

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 And so that perspective kind of aligned with my job and doing digital stuff, but also the

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 pastoral care piece, you know, you don't always find those two linked together, but

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 I get excited about the mission of helping people be healthy.

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 That's just, I love it.

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 And, but I practice it myself.

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 I'm not the expert because I got this down.

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 I'm the guy that's going through it with you and going, Hey, come on.

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 I think I found something that works.

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 And then pointing out other people that do as well.

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 So that's been, that's been my focus.

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 So thank you for, I mean, having me on even as the fourth choice.

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 I love it.

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 Yeah.

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 You know, I don't, John, I don't know that I even had a lot of exposure to you at that

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 point.

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 I, I mean, I want to say it was, it was a tweet or a social media post or Facebook or

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 something that I saw this and it was like, huh, that's an interesting perspective.

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 Let me, you know, I just, it was, it was tweet.

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 It was Twitter.

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 Cause we were, I remember DMing now and, and, and working through that and kind of like asking

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 some casual questions and getting some really sharp responses.

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 And I'm like, man, there's, there's something to this guy and there's something to the ideas

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 and what he's talking about.

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 And, and what's interesting is, is even you were, you were probably the second.

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 I think there was one other conversation that I had had with somebody that was so that was

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 soul care minded, mental health, pastoral care type.

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 It was the, I'm blanking on the gentleman's name right now, but at Transformation Church,

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 Durham and Grace Church, the guy over there was, was a, was a soul care, was mental health,

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 was pastoral care, but was also digital pastor.

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 And that was a, you know, that was a really rare formula, but it seems like more and more

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 now coming into this, like go putting it in that, that soul care bucket, because there's

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 finally recognition that it can be so relational and putting a person that's heavily

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 relational in the chair to control that, um, is, is, is paying off.

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 Yeah.

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 It helps us move beyond this idea that I've heard you champion so much online ministry.

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 Isn't just streaming your service.

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 Digital isn't just streaming your service.

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 And so you have to have a relational piece to it.

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 So yes, if I did one thing, I taught John Pyle that, and he's, he's excited about it.

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 So that's, that's cool.

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 I will get off air.

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 I'll get John to do another dance and it'll be awesome.

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 Hey, uh, so tell me, I mean, we're turning, turn to the corner here.

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 A little bit where you're, you're, you're, you've launched this new podcast.

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 Now you, you've been doing it for a while, but ramping it up and, and, and with maybe

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 a stronger focus here through, through the church digital, but it's this idea of better

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 on the inside.

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 Tell us a little bit here about the podcast and maybe the heart behind it.

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 Yeah.

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 Well, the heart behind it is how to work for a church without losing your soul.

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 Right.

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 That's the tagline.

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 And that's pretty strong, but I think, I think we can all point to people, whether they actually

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 were on church staff or whether they volunteered heavily or just super involved where you lose

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 a piece of yourself.

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 You feel like you can lose your soul, the essence of your belief in your faith by serving the

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 church and the church can kind of eat that up.

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 And so in this season of deconstruction, in this season of, I mean, pandemic and a lot

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 of grief and loss, I think that is becoming even more poignant, even more of a thing that

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 people are wrestling with of how do we create cultures that are better on the inside?

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 And so what I mean is it felt like looking through my lens and even at my own church, the more

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 involved people got, sometimes the further away they got from Jesus.

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 And we weren't always making disciples of Jesus, but sometimes we're making disciples of the

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 church that could be chewed up and spit out by this large evangelical machine.

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 And I don't want that.

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 I want to create cultures that are better on the inside.

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 And it actually came from a conversation with a volunteer, actually staff member, previous

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 volunteer, previous attender at Church of the Highlands, who told me when I was there for

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 a conference, all skeptical and jaded, who was like, no, it's better on the inside.

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 And I was like, that's possible.

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 Like that cast the vision of like, that's possible.

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 It's not just like we do this work and we're kind of like, because if you talk to somebody

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 who's worked for a church for a while, they're some of the most jaded people in the world.

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 I mean, cynical, jaded, like you've seen it all.

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 And it's cool because we've seen amazing parts of our job.

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 But and when this woman told me that they're at Church of the Highlands, it was actually

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 better on the inside.

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 She was closer to Jesus from going from an attender to a volunteer to a staff member.

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 And I was like, whoa, that's a vision.

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 That's a lifelong vision to make it better on the inside.

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 Because when we make cultures better on the inside, we could be better on the inside.

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 So that's kind of the vision behind the podcast.

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 Confession Hour here at one point in the early 2000s, I actually ran a satire blog called

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 jadedchristian.com.

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 You didn't know that about me.

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 But that that's that's that's that's a that's a true piece.

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 And it was it was told and people out there are doing math trying to justify the story.

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 And if you want to reach out to me, I'll tell you the story.

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 It's fine.

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 But there's truth here.

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 Like, I, I was I was a prime example of that, where the the as a volunteer, not even as

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 a staff person, I would joke so and so owns my soul.

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 So and so has a piece of my soul.

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 My dog is coming to say hello in the podcast.

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 But like it was so much a part of of that and trying to to overcome that it did.

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 It turned to be jaded.

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 It turned to be bitter.

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 It really became something.

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 And, you know, it's it's funny years later, I think I'm better.

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 And sometimes I have a I have a hard conversation or I snap back.

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 It was funny the other day.

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 This is confession.

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 I mean, I always feel good when I talk with you.

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 It's like, hey, let's just be open.

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 It's just you and me.

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 And, you know, whoever many hundreds of people are listening to the podcast.

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 But the other day, the other day, my dad was talking about, you know, one of the churches

00:13:38.320 --> 00:13:41.620
 that I used to work with and and confession hour.

00:13:41.620 --> 00:13:44.500
 I got really short tempered with him.

00:13:44.500 --> 00:13:49.140
 I ended up apologizing after the fact and was like, hey, that that's that wasn't good.

00:13:49.780 --> 00:13:57.640
 But it was it was he pulled a thread unintentionally that I was like, oh, I am not as healed on

00:13:57.640 --> 00:13:59.200
 this as as I thought it was.

00:13:59.340 --> 00:14:01.820
 And then it was, man, I got to let's I got it.

00:14:01.820 --> 00:14:02.980
 I got to dig into that.

00:14:03.040 --> 00:14:05.540
 I got to do some work in that space to work through it.

00:14:05.640 --> 00:14:08.780
 And I reached out to a friend of mine and was like, hey, we need to we need to have a

00:14:08.780 --> 00:14:13.760
 conversation about this because I'm I'm a little more ripe on this than I than I thought.

00:14:13.840 --> 00:14:20.260
 And even still, you know, years later, it's I'm still kind of sensitive to that or more

00:14:20.260 --> 00:14:21.420
 sensitive than I thought.

00:14:21.420 --> 00:14:26.920
 And it's like it's so hard when you when you put your all into something and you're you're

00:14:26.920 --> 00:14:27.820
 told it's for the kingdom.

00:14:27.820 --> 00:14:32.060
 But then there's there's a different mindset or a different ideology or a different direction.

00:14:32.060 --> 00:14:36.840
 And you want the I mean, the organization needs the ability to have the freedom to pivot

00:14:36.840 --> 00:14:38.160
 or to shift or to do things.

00:14:38.300 --> 00:14:41.780
 And but you're you're giving all of it.

00:14:41.860 --> 00:14:45.800
 And so it's literally is a piece of your soul that's going with it.

00:14:46.120 --> 00:14:47.860
 And, you know, I don't know that that's biblical.

00:14:48.020 --> 00:14:49.760
 I don't know that that's not biblical.

00:14:49.760 --> 00:14:57.100
 It's just one of the really the challenges of how we today, this Western model of church

00:14:57.100 --> 00:14:58.820
 is really operating.

00:14:59.420 --> 00:15:02.660
 And I mean, honestly, there's a little bit of the digital church network in here because

00:15:02.660 --> 00:15:04.680
 there's other ways to do this.

00:15:04.840 --> 00:15:11.680
 But the larger part of this is that we've got 330,000 evangelical churches, and many of

00:15:11.680 --> 00:15:15.660
 those are having pastors that are leaving because they're frustrated, because they're

00:15:15.660 --> 00:15:19.520
 burned, because they're tired, because they're underpaid, because they're overtaxed and

00:15:19.520 --> 00:15:20.200
 overworked.

00:15:20.360 --> 00:15:28.300
 And and because in many ways, they've become this vehicle to God instead of empowering individuals

00:15:28.300 --> 00:15:34.260
 to get there, you know, on their own, it's become the professional Christian doling it

00:15:34.260 --> 00:15:36.680
 out instead of the equipper piece.

00:15:36.700 --> 00:15:37.860
 But I don't want to get into that.

00:15:38.600 --> 00:15:43.480
 I just I love this fact that we're we're addressing some of this and working it through.

00:15:43.620 --> 00:15:45.860
 Yeah, there's a digital pastor piece of this.

00:15:45.860 --> 00:15:53.160
 But there's also like as as a person, as as a pastor, as a volunteer, like there are ways

00:15:53.160 --> 00:15:57.160
 that we can do this where we can do ministry and also be better on the inside.

00:15:57.380 --> 00:15:59.980
 Man, so the podcast actually changed.

00:16:00.540 --> 00:16:04.800
 We started working on it of like something like the messy middle or something about like,

00:16:04.860 --> 00:16:06.640
 how does holiness look in everyday life?

00:16:06.640 --> 00:16:08.440
 That was the initial kind of conceit.

00:16:08.640 --> 00:16:11.960
 We recorded some episodes, we did some stuff, we were moving down that line.

00:16:12.400 --> 00:16:17.740
 And I got challenged by my producer, Andre Jennings of like, he just pushed me of like,

00:16:17.900 --> 00:16:18.780
 what's your audience?

00:16:18.860 --> 00:16:19.780
 Who are you really looking for?

00:16:19.820 --> 00:16:23.380
 And I'm like, man, if I could just have my church staff listen to a podcast, that would

00:16:23.380 --> 00:16:23.980
 be exciting.

00:16:24.440 --> 00:16:30.040
 And it's like, I want to give something to, you know, folks who are struggling, because

00:16:30.040 --> 00:16:35.100
 part of it is that you don't listen to the sermon because you've been critiquing the sermon

00:16:35.100 --> 00:16:37.940
 or videoing the sermon and you listen to it and you did this.

00:16:38.220 --> 00:16:40.160
 Like, when was the last time you went to church?

00:16:40.180 --> 00:16:43.200
 That's a question to challenge everyone's last time you really went to church.

00:16:43.320 --> 00:16:48.340
 And so providing some kind of content that people can engage with that actually like feeds

00:16:48.340 --> 00:16:50.560
 the soul is another good piece to it.

00:16:50.560 --> 00:16:55.000
 And man, when Jesus said, what does it profit a man to gain the world but lose his soul?

00:16:55.600 --> 00:16:57.560
 He's talking about stuff like this.

00:16:57.800 --> 00:17:02.940
 What does it profit you to gain so much in success, to gain so much in church attendance,

00:17:03.040 --> 00:17:07.660
 to gain so much in promotion and whatever that you might be experiencing in your thing,

00:17:07.760 --> 00:17:12.140
 but to lose the special part of you that's deeply connected to him and lose sight of it.

00:17:12.260 --> 00:17:14.760
 And it's toxic when we do that.

00:17:15.140 --> 00:17:15.260
 Awesome.

00:17:15.540 --> 00:17:20.640
 So here with the takeover, I mean, we're literally, we're now doing the intro and we're

00:17:20.640 --> 00:17:24.700
 going to play one of your episodes here from Better on the Inside.

00:17:25.420 --> 00:17:27.780
 Set up an intro here, explain, set it up.

00:17:27.860 --> 00:17:29.580
 What episode are we listening to?

00:17:29.680 --> 00:17:30.780
 Who are we going to be interviewing?

00:17:31.060 --> 00:17:37.280
 This one we're listening to Dr. Roberta Jones-Hall, or Birdie as we call her around City Church.

00:17:37.620 --> 00:17:41.160
 And she is a licensed minister and doctor.

00:17:41.300 --> 00:17:42.720
 She's a Christian psychiatrist.

00:17:43.160 --> 00:17:46.680
 And so not just a psychologist or a counselor, like a psychiatrist.

00:17:46.680 --> 00:17:52.640
 And so she digs deep on mental health and understands both aspects, the clinical aspect,

00:17:52.640 --> 00:17:54.600
 as well as the spiritual aspect.

00:17:55.280 --> 00:17:59.540
 And when Birdie and I talked kind of for the conceit of the initial podcast about holiness,

00:17:59.540 --> 00:18:01.520
 she just brought a ton of wisdom.

00:18:01.520 --> 00:18:05.260
 And she is a voice that can speak in terms that people can understand.

00:18:05.260 --> 00:18:12.520
 And so she just has an incredible way of speaking into life and making some of the things simple

00:18:12.520 --> 00:18:15.100
 around how to grow spiritually and be healthy spiritually.

00:18:15.460 --> 00:18:19.840
 And she also accepts that you can't just pray away depression, right?

00:18:19.880 --> 00:18:24.220
 There's a spiritual, physical, and mental aspect to all of these things.

00:18:24.220 --> 00:18:26.220
 And she really unites those three in one.

00:18:26.360 --> 00:18:28.340
 And so my conversation with Birdie was great.

00:18:28.440 --> 00:18:36.000
 She blew my mind on some points, talking about holiness, talking about the downside to a miracle.

00:18:36.380 --> 00:18:38.980
 Like, that sounds so wrong.

00:18:39.140 --> 00:18:40.480
 Like, may God strike me down.

00:18:40.740 --> 00:18:41.460
 But it's not.

00:18:41.940 --> 00:18:43.280
 It's a really good point.

00:18:43.620 --> 00:18:47.220
 And if nothing else, listen for the downside to a miracle because it's really good.

00:18:47.460 --> 00:18:48.700
 Hey, yeah, so stick around.

00:18:48.880 --> 00:18:49.960
 Like, I kind of freaked out.

00:18:50.000 --> 00:18:51.640
 He said it off air, talking about that.

00:18:52.060 --> 00:18:55.100
 Are we just doing, like, bad theology at this point?

00:18:55.180 --> 00:18:56.720
 No, it'll make sense.

00:18:56.780 --> 00:18:57.520
 Give her a chance.

00:18:58.120 --> 00:18:59.060
 It'll play out.

00:18:59.180 --> 00:19:03.660
 And honestly, I think she's spot on in this context with it anyway.

00:19:03.820 --> 00:19:04.780
 And so here we are.

00:19:04.880 --> 00:19:09.680
 We're bringing into the conversation John Pyle, host of Better on the Inside,

00:19:09.680 --> 00:19:17.740
 and Roberta Jones-Hall in a conversation about really addressing and finding the capacity for holiness.

00:19:18.120 --> 00:19:20.660
 This is the Better on the Inside takeover.

00:19:20.860 --> 00:19:22.200
 Okay, everybody, here you go.

00:19:22.440 --> 00:19:22.980
 What's up, y'all?

00:19:23.140 --> 00:19:27.260
 Welcome to Better on the Inside, a podcast about working for a church without losing your soul.

00:19:27.820 --> 00:19:30.220
 My name is John, and I'm your host and digital pastor.

00:19:30.840 --> 00:19:35.780
 We started this podcast because it can be really difficult to work for a church and follow Jesus.

00:19:36.380 --> 00:19:38.700
 It's so messy and complex.

00:19:38.840 --> 00:19:43.100
 You spend so much time caring for others and creating great experiences for your church

00:19:43.100 --> 00:19:48.000
 that it's easy for you to get lost in your personal spiritual journey to go on the back burner.

00:19:48.500 --> 00:19:54.400
 Or even worse, you can get jaded, cynical, and find yourself totally disconnected from Jesus

00:19:54.400 --> 00:19:56.920
 while still being asked to serve others.

00:19:57.800 --> 00:20:00.920
 My vision is to create a church culture that's better on the inside.

00:20:01.720 --> 00:20:05.100
 A church that's better on the inside means as you get more involved or more connected,

00:20:05.420 --> 00:20:06.720
 you don't just do more.

00:20:06.720 --> 00:20:08.880
 You actually get closer to Jesus, too.

00:20:09.520 --> 00:20:11.400
 I don't want you to become a cog in the machine.

00:20:11.580 --> 00:20:12.720
 You matter too much for that.

00:20:13.160 --> 00:20:15.560
 I want you to thrive in your own relationship with Jesus.

00:20:16.160 --> 00:20:17.460
 You are not expendable.

00:20:17.940 --> 00:20:19.620
 You are a masterpiece.

00:20:21.140 --> 00:20:24.960
 A better on the inside culture will leave us all better on the inside, too.

00:20:26.480 --> 00:20:27.360
 Hey, what's up, y'all?

00:20:27.460 --> 00:20:30.020
 I'm here with Dr. Roberta Jones-Hall.

00:20:30.260 --> 00:20:31.600
 I call her Bertie, right?

00:20:31.740 --> 00:20:32.240
 We're here.

00:20:32.500 --> 00:20:32.740
 Right, right.

00:20:32.740 --> 00:20:36.880
 And I'm so excited to talk to you because you have such a unique background, right?

00:20:37.120 --> 00:20:39.340
 Not only are you like a minister, right?

00:20:39.340 --> 00:20:44.180
 And you're trained on the Jesus side, you're also a doctor and a mental health professional

00:20:44.180 --> 00:20:44.860
 psychiatrist.

00:20:45.860 --> 00:20:50.880
 And so, in talking about the messy middle and people becoming more like Jesus and holiness

00:20:50.880 --> 00:20:55.240
 and also mental health, you have a totally unique perspective.

00:20:56.320 --> 00:20:57.880
 Well, you're very kind.

00:20:58.780 --> 00:21:00.820
 John, you're very kind.

00:21:00.900 --> 00:21:03.300
 The gracious answer is, thank you so much.

00:21:03.840 --> 00:21:09.740
 But I think it's also really important, too, to just recognize that before anything, we are

00:21:09.740 --> 00:21:12.460
 two human beings that love Jesus.

00:21:12.800 --> 00:21:14.420
 We love his followers.

00:21:15.140 --> 00:21:16.500
 We love the body of Christ.

00:21:17.160 --> 00:21:23.380
 And so, the whole goal of our conversation is to bless people, encourage people, lift them

00:21:23.380 --> 00:21:31.120
 up, and maybe put some clear road signs along this path we're all trying to walk.

00:21:31.200 --> 00:21:31.460
 Yeah.

00:21:31.460 --> 00:21:39.080
 Because sometimes, what we hear from pulpits, and I use the plural term, pulpits, because

00:21:39.080 --> 00:21:45.880
 there are so many messages and so much information coming from so many places, it's like, oh my

00:21:45.880 --> 00:21:48.220
 gosh, I don't even know which one to listen to.

00:21:48.320 --> 00:21:48.640
 Yeah.

00:21:48.880 --> 00:21:50.180
 It's an overload.

00:21:50.720 --> 00:21:52.500
 We are so overloaded.

00:21:52.600 --> 00:21:58.620
 You know, the book of Daniel says that in the last days, knowledge would be greatly increased.

00:21:58.620 --> 00:22:04.200
 And we are living in days when knowledge is just overwhelming.

00:22:04.620 --> 00:22:05.420
 It's incredible.

00:22:05.680 --> 00:22:09.820
 And so, one of the best things, when I got to first meet you, right, through Pastor Brent,

00:22:10.200 --> 00:22:14.260
 you shared just incredible wisdom.

00:22:14.640 --> 00:22:16.580
 And that's when I think of you, I think of that wisdom.

00:22:16.820 --> 00:22:18.800
 And so, I have a notebook that I took notes of.

00:22:18.860 --> 00:22:19.460
 Oh my goodness.

00:22:19.620 --> 00:22:21.020
 The conversation, the whole deal, right?

00:22:21.060 --> 00:22:21.480
 No pressure.

00:22:22.160 --> 00:22:23.060
 What did I say?

00:22:23.760 --> 00:22:24.920
 What did I say?

00:22:25.180 --> 00:22:29.740
 And so, differentiating between this vast knowledge and the depleting wisdom.

00:22:31.200 --> 00:22:36.180
 Just, it feels like there's so much less wisdom, and people are looking for, it's the road signs

00:22:36.180 --> 00:22:36.840
 that you talked about.

00:22:36.840 --> 00:22:37.520
 Where do I go?

00:22:37.660 --> 00:22:37.840
 Okay.

00:22:38.140 --> 00:22:40.920
 I know that there's this study, and there's that study, and there's this study, and that

00:22:40.920 --> 00:22:43.480
 there's this person that says this, and that person says that, and that person says that.

00:22:43.900 --> 00:22:45.700
 But what do I do?

00:22:46.200 --> 00:22:48.320
 You are, you're so right.

00:22:48.460 --> 00:22:52.140
 Now, I think, first of all, let's just talk about what's the difference between knowledge

00:22:52.140 --> 00:22:52.760
 and wisdom.

00:22:52.900 --> 00:22:53.180
 Yeah.

00:22:53.340 --> 00:22:56.320
 You know, knowledge is, hey, go look for it on the internet.

00:22:56.600 --> 00:23:02.540
 Now, you can find good knowledge, bad knowledge, real knowledge, fake knowledge, halfway in

00:23:02.540 --> 00:23:04.740
 between, half fake, half real knowledge.

00:23:04.860 --> 00:23:05.100
 Yeah.

00:23:05.320 --> 00:23:06.580
 Pick your knowledge, you know.

00:23:06.700 --> 00:23:09.700
 I mean, it's like gathering sand on the seashore.

00:23:09.860 --> 00:23:10.260
 Okay.

00:23:10.400 --> 00:23:12.340
 I mean, that's how much knowledge there is.

00:23:13.240 --> 00:23:17.360
 Wisdom is, what do I do with the information?

00:23:17.660 --> 00:23:18.140
 Yes.

00:23:18.140 --> 00:23:21.000
 And that's breathed by the Holy Spirit.

00:23:21.300 --> 00:23:27.100
 The Holy Spirit is the one that makes Jesus real inside of us.

00:23:27.180 --> 00:23:28.480
 He reveals the Father.

00:23:28.620 --> 00:23:29.740
 He reveals Jesus.

00:23:30.120 --> 00:23:31.660
 He reveals the Word.

00:23:32.220 --> 00:23:38.560
 So, as we gather information, it's not just like, you know, kids gathering Easter eggs and

00:23:38.560 --> 00:23:40.360
 dumping them in the basket, you know.

00:23:40.720 --> 00:23:46.640
 It's, we want to gather that, but then we want to surrender not just our information, but

00:23:46.640 --> 00:23:49.360
 our hearts to who Jesus really is.

00:23:50.020 --> 00:23:56.100
 And let them, let Him show us, this is what you do with that information.

00:23:56.100 --> 00:24:03.520
 And this is what that information means to you specifically in your life.

00:24:03.620 --> 00:24:04.240
 Oh, yeah.

00:24:04.320 --> 00:24:04.540
 Yeah.

00:24:04.620 --> 00:24:07.740
 Not just, oh, yeah, this is what you do, blanket, you know.

00:24:08.000 --> 00:24:08.280
 All right.

00:24:08.320 --> 00:24:10.340
 Everybody breathe on the count of three.

00:24:10.540 --> 00:24:14.240
 No, it's, He's so intimate and so personal.

00:24:14.600 --> 00:24:14.920
 Yeah.

00:24:15.000 --> 00:24:20.140
 He'll take that scripture or that word or that piece of information and He wants to apply

00:24:20.140 --> 00:24:21.540
 it to John.

00:24:21.740 --> 00:24:23.800
 He wants to apply it to Bertie.

00:24:23.880 --> 00:24:24.260
 Yeah.

00:24:24.480 --> 00:24:30.740
 You know, He's very, very individualized because of His care for us.

00:24:30.920 --> 00:24:32.340
 A very personal care.

00:24:32.800 --> 00:24:34.700
 Very, very personal.

00:24:34.980 --> 00:24:40.400
 And we don't, I think for some people, they've presented this version of religion where it's

00:24:40.400 --> 00:24:48.560
 very impersonal, where it's a big God way over there or way up there, right, that needs you

00:24:48.560 --> 00:24:52.260
 to, like, follow the rules or He's going to strike you down.

00:24:52.840 --> 00:24:59.580
 And so that individual care thing will be, I think that's going to be great for people

00:24:59.580 --> 00:25:02.560
 to hear, just to even think of a God that cares.

00:25:02.800 --> 00:25:04.040
 Well, you said it perfectly.

00:25:04.200 --> 00:25:08.560
 You said, people have a concept that religion is impersonal.

00:25:09.300 --> 00:25:10.640
 That's because it is.

00:25:11.420 --> 00:25:13.120
 Religion's always impersonal.

00:25:13.300 --> 00:25:13.380
 Yeah.

00:25:13.520 --> 00:25:20.420
 I mean, religion per se, I like to say, who drove Jesus totally bonkers when He was on

00:25:20.420 --> 00:25:21.540
 the face of the earth?

00:25:21.760 --> 00:25:23.800
 It was the religious crazies.

00:25:23.880 --> 00:25:27.220
 It was the scribes and Pharisees with their rules and lists.

00:25:28.220 --> 00:25:32.420
 Jesus liked to go hang out with prostitutes and fishermen.

00:25:32.980 --> 00:25:38.240
 And the lady at the well, you know, yeah, you know, who'd been married five times and is

00:25:38.240 --> 00:25:39.640
 shacking up with the next guy.

00:25:39.800 --> 00:25:42.740
 I mean, Jesus is relational.

00:25:43.640 --> 00:25:46.120
 Religion is rules-based.

00:25:47.360 --> 00:25:49.520
 Relationships are not rules-based.

00:25:49.880 --> 00:25:55.660
 Can't you just see how far it would go if you walk into your wife and pull out your list

00:25:55.660 --> 00:25:57.260
 of, here are my rules?

00:25:59.260 --> 00:26:02.440
 I don't think she's going to be happy with you.

00:26:02.800 --> 00:26:13.600
 Well, by the same token, if we think of really fully walking with Jesus, we cannot think in

00:26:13.600 --> 00:26:18.940
 terms of rules, regulations, and that type of rigidity.

00:26:18.940 --> 00:26:29.180
 Now, relationships based on respect, we find relational rules come into play.

00:26:29.740 --> 00:26:32.000
 You're not going to go hang out at the bar.

00:26:32.520 --> 00:26:33.080
 Why?

00:26:33.280 --> 00:26:38.760
 Not because you work on staff at City Church, because you have a relationship with Jesus.

00:26:38.920 --> 00:26:41.200
 You have this wonderful relationship with your wife.

00:26:41.280 --> 00:26:45.020
 You have this awesome relationship with your children.

00:26:45.020 --> 00:26:53.080
 And that relationship creates internal rules based on love.

00:26:53.080 --> 00:26:53.520
 Yeah.

00:26:53.880 --> 00:26:55.580
 You love and respect them.

00:26:55.740 --> 00:27:00.380
 Therefore, you make choices based on what builds your relationship.

00:27:00.640 --> 00:27:00.960
 Right.

00:27:01.100 --> 00:27:01.300
 Right?

00:27:01.540 --> 00:27:02.480
 Man, that's good.

00:27:02.580 --> 00:27:02.780
 Yes.

00:27:02.840 --> 00:27:05.840
 So, let's take that over to Jesus.

00:27:06.180 --> 00:27:06.360
 Yeah.

00:27:06.600 --> 00:27:15.040
 Now, you know, I think there are a whole lot of people in the world that don't realize it.

00:27:15.120 --> 00:27:22.540
 But if we really, you know, push the issue, they're going to say, I really respect the person

00:27:22.540 --> 00:27:23.700
 that Jesus is.

00:27:23.860 --> 00:27:24.040
 Yeah.

00:27:24.140 --> 00:27:26.140
 They may not believe he's the son of God.

00:27:26.420 --> 00:27:27.640
 They may not follow him.

00:27:27.920 --> 00:27:29.620
 They may not think of any of that.

00:27:29.940 --> 00:27:35.740
 But if you read the life of, I'll word it this way, just the historical Jesus.

00:27:36.040 --> 00:27:36.260
 Yeah.

00:27:36.940 --> 00:27:40.360
 If you're an honest human being, you will respect him.

00:27:40.520 --> 00:27:41.820
 It's so true.

00:27:42.040 --> 00:27:42.160
 Yeah.

00:27:42.160 --> 00:27:43.340
 I mean, you will respect him.

00:27:43.400 --> 00:27:44.580
 You may or may not like him.

00:27:44.620 --> 00:27:46.060
 You may or may not agree with him.

00:27:46.060 --> 00:27:50.320
 But you will respect him because of his integrity, compassion, et cetera.

00:27:50.560 --> 00:27:50.780
 Yeah.

00:27:50.780 --> 00:28:01.740
 So, out of love and respect, then, for Jesus, that begins to create what I like to call guardrails

00:28:01.740 --> 00:28:08.220
 on the freeway for my life, not out of, oh, my gosh, did I check off this box?

00:28:08.260 --> 00:28:08.780
 Oh, my goodness.

00:28:08.800 --> 00:28:09.080
 Yeah.

00:28:09.300 --> 00:28:10.720
 Oh, I hit my thumb with a hammer.

00:28:10.820 --> 00:28:11.560
 I said that word.

00:28:11.720 --> 00:28:12.820
 Oh, you know.

00:28:12.980 --> 00:28:13.200
 Right.

00:28:13.440 --> 00:28:14.640
 That's not holiness.

00:28:15.120 --> 00:28:15.520
 Mm.

00:28:16.360 --> 00:28:17.500
 That's not holiness.

00:28:18.100 --> 00:28:18.420
 Yes.

00:28:18.420 --> 00:28:22.660
 Okay, so I have to talk about the word holiness.

00:28:23.040 --> 00:28:23.400
 Yes.

00:28:23.520 --> 00:28:25.520
 Because we never use it in our society.

00:28:25.600 --> 00:28:26.840
 No, it's kind of a dirty word.

00:28:27.160 --> 00:28:29.020
 Well, it is a four-letter word.

00:28:29.220 --> 00:28:31.080
 Holy is a four-letter word.

00:28:31.320 --> 00:28:33.820
 So, you can take that where you want to.

00:28:33.960 --> 00:28:34.180
 Yeah.

00:28:34.340 --> 00:28:36.620
 Okay, so let's talk about God, right?

00:28:36.620 --> 00:28:36.720
 Right.

00:28:36.720 --> 00:28:37.640
 What does God say?

00:28:37.780 --> 00:28:40.840
 Because I looked it up before I came here to make sure I had my brain all in order.

00:28:41.280 --> 00:28:43.620
 So, what does Leviticus say?

00:28:43.700 --> 00:28:45.840
 It's like five times in Leviticus.

00:28:46.560 --> 00:28:49.380
 Be holy, for I am holy.

00:28:49.520 --> 00:28:49.660
 Yeah.

00:28:49.800 --> 00:28:50.060
 Right?

00:28:50.580 --> 00:28:56.920
 And then over in 1 Peter, it is written, be holy, for I am holy.

00:28:57.140 --> 00:28:57.360
 Yeah.

00:28:58.400 --> 00:29:01.600
 This is how we read it, out of Leviticus.

00:29:01.740 --> 00:29:05.420
 And if you've ever gotten bogged down in all the sacrifices in Leviticus.

00:29:05.580 --> 00:29:05.880
 Yes.

00:29:06.000 --> 00:29:09.640
 Yeah, that's when you start flipping pages and saying, do you mind if I skip this?

00:29:09.780 --> 00:29:10.020
 Yeah.

00:29:10.140 --> 00:29:14.560
 And it's not that it's not important, but it, too, depends on our heart.

00:29:14.820 --> 00:29:15.180
 That's true.

00:29:15.180 --> 00:29:15.580
 Where are we?

00:29:15.960 --> 00:29:16.140
 Absolutely.

00:29:16.140 --> 00:29:17.760
 Where is each person coming from?

00:29:18.340 --> 00:29:20.680
 Here's how we read it when we read this.

00:29:20.780 --> 00:29:21.320
 Are you ready?

00:29:21.580 --> 00:29:21.780
 Yeah.

00:29:22.500 --> 00:29:25.080
 Be holy, for I am holy.

00:29:25.700 --> 00:29:25.940
 Okay?

00:29:26.100 --> 00:29:28.520
 And that's how we see God.

00:29:28.760 --> 00:29:31.540
 You better be holy, because I'm holy.

00:29:31.620 --> 00:29:39.100
 And we just have all this anger and rigidity and fear.

00:29:39.100 --> 00:29:41.100
 And just plain mean.

00:29:41.840 --> 00:29:42.700
 Oh, yes.

00:29:42.820 --> 00:29:43.460
 You're just mean.

00:29:43.580 --> 00:29:43.880
 Yeah.

00:29:44.120 --> 00:29:44.460
 Okay?

00:29:44.840 --> 00:29:46.680
 Well, here's the reason we do that.

00:29:47.600 --> 00:29:48.500
 Are you ready?

00:29:48.620 --> 00:29:49.520
 I'm so ready.

00:29:50.080 --> 00:29:58.100
 We do that because if you watch us and we think we're right and the other guy's wrong,

00:29:58.380 --> 00:29:59.300
 how do we act?

00:29:59.940 --> 00:30:03.480
 Well, they just don't do it like I do it.

00:30:03.680 --> 00:30:03.800
 Yeah.

00:30:03.840 --> 00:30:09.620
 So what we've done is we've projected our humanity onto God, put our words, our concept,

00:30:09.800 --> 00:30:11.360
 our tone of voice in his mouth.

00:30:11.460 --> 00:30:11.720
 Yeah.

00:30:11.860 --> 00:30:15.300
 And had him speak it and thought it was him.

00:30:15.440 --> 00:30:15.680
 Right.

00:30:15.720 --> 00:30:17.740
 And said, be holy, for I am holy.

00:30:19.360 --> 00:30:21.840
 Well, God talks about that over in Psalms.

00:30:21.920 --> 00:30:23.840
 He said, you think I'm just like you.

00:30:24.320 --> 00:30:25.540
 But I'm not.

00:30:25.720 --> 00:30:26.000
 Yeah.

00:30:26.460 --> 00:30:31.180
 Now, so we think that's how God is saying it to us.

00:30:31.200 --> 00:30:31.480
 Right.

00:30:31.680 --> 00:30:33.120
 But let's go back to Genesis.

00:30:33.780 --> 00:30:35.780
 When God created, what did he do?

00:30:36.420 --> 00:30:37.380
 He spoke, right?

00:30:37.400 --> 00:30:37.680
 Yeah.

00:30:37.880 --> 00:30:40.180
 He said, let there be light.

00:30:40.520 --> 00:30:43.680
 And the Hebrew actually says, light be.

00:30:44.000 --> 00:30:44.400
 Mm.

00:30:45.280 --> 00:30:45.620
 Mm.

00:30:45.620 --> 00:30:48.060
 And light became.

00:30:48.300 --> 00:30:48.880
 It was.

00:30:49.040 --> 00:30:49.720
 It was.

00:30:49.780 --> 00:30:50.140
 Why?

00:30:50.340 --> 00:30:51.660
 Because he said so.

00:30:52.300 --> 00:30:55.400
 Now, so he creates by his word.

00:30:55.640 --> 00:30:55.900
 Yeah.

00:30:56.420 --> 00:30:57.980
 How about in John chapter one?

00:30:58.040 --> 00:30:59.660
 In the beginning was the?

00:30:59.840 --> 00:31:00.280
 Word.

00:31:00.340 --> 00:31:00.860
 Word.

00:31:00.860 --> 00:31:03.600
 And the word was with God.

00:31:03.760 --> 00:31:07.360
 And the word was God.

00:31:07.580 --> 00:31:08.440
 That's Jesus.

00:31:08.980 --> 00:31:11.660
 Jesus is the picture of the word of God.

00:31:11.960 --> 00:31:12.260
 Right?

00:31:12.980 --> 00:31:16.360
 So God isn't saying, be holy for I am holy.

00:31:16.820 --> 00:31:18.000
 What is God doing?

00:31:18.200 --> 00:31:27.240
 When he says, be holy, he creates in you the capacity to be holy.

00:31:27.240 --> 00:31:29.140
 He creates.

00:31:29.800 --> 00:31:40.380
 He speaks and creates in you the capacity to receive his holiness when you're born again.

00:31:41.240 --> 00:31:42.640
 That's incredible.

00:31:42.900 --> 00:31:44.140
 That's like, rewind.

00:31:44.980 --> 00:31:46.200
 Can we say it again?

00:31:47.300 --> 00:31:47.860
 Right?

00:31:48.120 --> 00:31:48.640
 Wow.

00:31:48.920 --> 00:31:51.020
 So how did Jesus heal the blind man?

00:31:51.880 --> 00:31:53.140
 Receive your sight.

00:31:53.320 --> 00:31:55.180
 He lay hands on him, but he did what?

00:31:55.280 --> 00:31:56.080
 He spoke.

00:31:56.260 --> 00:31:56.780
 Spoke.

00:31:57.100 --> 00:31:57.580
 Right?

00:31:57.980 --> 00:31:59.460
 How about the lame man?

00:32:00.140 --> 00:32:02.160
 Rise and walk.

00:32:02.620 --> 00:32:04.260
 He speaks.

00:32:04.380 --> 00:32:04.740
 Yeah.

00:32:05.100 --> 00:32:05.480
 Right?

00:32:05.720 --> 00:32:06.060
 Right.

00:32:06.060 --> 00:32:07.880
 Remember when he cursed the fig tree?

00:32:08.760 --> 00:32:10.200
 He spoke.

00:32:10.400 --> 00:32:10.600
 Yeah.

00:32:10.700 --> 00:32:13.320
 Now, I don't want to hear him send any curses my way.

00:32:14.080 --> 00:32:14.560
 Okay.

00:32:14.640 --> 00:32:17.760
 And for all of you who are feeling really, really guilty, calm down.

00:32:17.940 --> 00:32:18.140
 Okay.

00:32:18.620 --> 00:32:19.660
 So what does God do?

00:32:19.740 --> 00:32:21.660
 He says, be holy.

00:32:21.940 --> 00:32:25.180
 And then listen to what he says, for I am holy.

00:32:25.180 --> 00:32:32.880
 In other words, when you are born again, God becomes your very own father.

00:32:33.220 --> 00:32:33.720
 Wow.

00:32:34.080 --> 00:32:39.720
 Well, has anyone ever looked at a child and said, oh my goodness, you look just like your dad?

00:32:39.840 --> 00:32:41.100
 Mm-hmm.

00:32:41.100 --> 00:32:41.480
 Mm-hmm.

00:32:41.480 --> 00:32:43.200
 You look just like your mom.

00:32:43.380 --> 00:32:43.660
 Yeah.

00:32:44.160 --> 00:32:49.700
 Remember Amy Grant years and years ago had a song, she has her father's eyes?

00:32:49.860 --> 00:32:50.400
 Yeah.

00:32:50.820 --> 00:32:51.380
 Why?

00:32:51.740 --> 00:32:52.040
 Mm-hmm.

00:32:52.040 --> 00:32:56.360
 Well, because God is our very own father.

00:32:56.800 --> 00:32:57.080
 Yeah.

00:32:57.320 --> 00:33:03.400
 He is holy, he creates in us the capacity to receive himself.

00:33:04.180 --> 00:33:04.540
 Man.

00:33:04.800 --> 00:33:11.440
 And so the capacity, notice I didn't say to be good, check off all the boxes, make sure

00:33:11.440 --> 00:33:13.560
 we do everything perfectly, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

00:33:13.560 --> 00:33:13.700
 Yeah, yeah.

00:33:13.700 --> 00:33:20.360
 He creates in us the capacity to receive his holiness that lives inside of us.

00:33:20.480 --> 00:33:25.820
 And now I bet the question is, well, why don't I feel holy and why am I having such a hard

00:33:25.820 --> 00:33:26.220
 time?

00:33:26.780 --> 00:33:33.720
 Well, I mean, this is mind-blowing, though, to think of relational rules versus, and then

00:33:33.720 --> 00:33:38.140
 reinterpreting holiness, not as this checklist of perfection.

00:33:39.120 --> 00:33:41.040
 Well, not unless you want to be a Pharisee.

00:33:41.160 --> 00:33:43.320
 Which, you're never going to get it right.

00:33:43.860 --> 00:33:44.820
 They didn't get it right.

00:33:45.000 --> 00:33:45.820
 You can't.

00:33:45.820 --> 00:33:46.680
 Oh, wow.

00:33:46.860 --> 00:33:49.820
 And so, yeah, so now the question, you framed it perfectly.

00:33:50.220 --> 00:33:55.660
 Okay, so you have this capacity for holiness that God speaks and creates within us.

00:33:55.780 --> 00:33:56.020
 Right.

00:33:56.300 --> 00:33:58.080
 So why can't we do what we want to do?

00:33:58.380 --> 00:33:59.080
 And why do we do the things we don't want to do?

00:33:59.080 --> 00:34:02.340
 Oh, gee, it sounds just like Romans chapter 7, right?

00:34:02.560 --> 00:34:04.960
 I try and I fall flat on my face.

00:34:05.040 --> 00:34:07.880
 It's why we all have flat noses because we fall.

00:34:08.700 --> 00:34:09.780
 Yeah, over, over.

00:34:09.780 --> 00:34:12.800
 Okay, so, but here's the amazing thing.

00:34:12.800 --> 00:34:15.960
 You already are holy in God's sight.

00:34:18.020 --> 00:34:19.160
 Okay, rewind.

00:34:19.480 --> 00:34:21.720
 Okay, just chew on that a little bit.

00:34:21.920 --> 00:34:22.480
 Yeah.

00:34:23.020 --> 00:34:27.780
 Because once we're born again, whose life is it inside of us?

00:34:27.940 --> 00:34:28.700
 It's not ours.

00:34:28.840 --> 00:34:29.060
 It's his.

00:34:29.080 --> 00:34:29.320
 Thank you.

00:34:29.400 --> 00:34:30.020
 It's his.

00:34:30.160 --> 00:34:30.260
 Yeah.

00:34:30.400 --> 00:34:31.560
 Well, is his life holy?

00:34:31.920 --> 00:34:32.720
 Yes, it is.

00:34:33.020 --> 00:34:33.320
 Yeah.

00:34:33.480 --> 00:34:33.760
 Yeah.

00:34:33.840 --> 00:34:38.020
 So the holy life of God is already living in us.

00:34:38.380 --> 00:34:42.680
 Well, why do I have such a hard time walking it out?

00:34:42.680 --> 00:34:43.080
 Yeah.

00:34:43.080 --> 00:34:43.560
 Okay.

00:34:43.800 --> 00:34:50.020
 My favorite illustration of this is something that we don't really recognize very much here

00:34:50.020 --> 00:34:53.160
 because we are in a democracy.

00:34:53.600 --> 00:34:53.820
 Sure.

00:34:53.920 --> 00:34:56.280
 But in England, they have a monarchy.

00:34:56.580 --> 00:34:57.000
 That's right.

00:34:57.000 --> 00:35:00.920
 So let's pick on William and Kate and all of their children.

00:35:01.020 --> 00:35:01.240
 Yes.

00:35:01.240 --> 00:35:01.620
 Okay.

00:35:01.720 --> 00:35:01.980
 Yeah.

00:35:02.300 --> 00:35:03.420
 Prince George.

00:35:03.960 --> 00:35:09.300
 Now, when he was much younger, I saw this great picture of him.

00:35:09.300 --> 00:35:17.640
 I think he was maybe three in this cute little blue, obviously British jumpsuit with a little

00:35:17.640 --> 00:35:20.600
 white shirt and a little round collar.

00:35:20.920 --> 00:35:21.040
 Yeah.

00:35:21.040 --> 00:35:24.900
 No boy in America would be caught dead in this, but okay.

00:35:25.320 --> 00:35:29.120
 So with the little blue patent leather shoes and the whole business.

00:35:29.640 --> 00:35:31.600
 Do you know what they call him?

00:35:32.440 --> 00:35:35.080
 They call him Prince George.

00:35:35.500 --> 00:35:37.520
 He is royalty.

00:35:38.000 --> 00:35:38.300
 Yeah.

00:35:38.300 --> 00:35:47.480
 He doesn't even know where to show up to get his bath, but he is royalty and God forbid,

00:35:47.680 --> 00:35:51.140
 but if enough people died in the line, he would be king.

00:35:51.280 --> 00:35:51.740
 That's right.

00:35:52.360 --> 00:35:53.940
 Even though he's, what is he now?

00:35:54.020 --> 00:35:56.680
 Seven or eight or something, you know, I mean, he's a kid.

00:35:56.940 --> 00:35:57.160
 Yeah.

00:35:57.700 --> 00:35:59.640
 You're going to let your nine-year-old drive the car.

00:35:59.880 --> 00:36:00.800
 Oh, you're sure.

00:36:01.160 --> 00:36:03.540
 No, I don't even want to leave him in the car.

00:36:03.780 --> 00:36:04.380
 Thank you.

00:36:06.180 --> 00:36:13.660
 So what happens is that positionally, he is a prince.

00:36:13.880 --> 00:36:14.120
 Yeah.

00:36:14.820 --> 00:36:15.800
 He's royalty.

00:36:19.800 --> 00:36:29.800
 Essentially, and dare I say, maturity-wise, growth-wise, and may I use the word process-wise, he's very immature.

00:36:30.680 --> 00:36:39.260
 When we are born again, we have the life of God in us, and God sees us as holy in his sight.

00:36:39.500 --> 00:36:39.720
 Yeah.

00:36:40.120 --> 00:36:42.700
 Let's talk about the process of growing up.

00:36:43.960 --> 00:36:44.780
 That's slow.

00:36:45.200 --> 00:36:46.240
 That takes time.

00:36:46.360 --> 00:36:47.580
 It takes time.

00:36:48.100 --> 00:36:50.460
 And that's where people struggle.

00:36:50.800 --> 00:36:54.100
 Well, if I'm holy, why am I still having trouble with this?

00:36:54.240 --> 00:36:54.420
 Yeah.

00:36:54.560 --> 00:37:01.000
 Well, did you ride a bicycle the first time you got on there, or did you fall and scrape your knees and skin your nose?

00:37:01.020 --> 00:37:01.660
 Oh, goodness.

00:37:01.940 --> 00:37:07.800
 With my nine-year-old and a five-year-old, I have this conversation almost every single day.

00:37:08.120 --> 00:37:12.520
 You're not a grown-up yet, or you just have to keep trying.

00:37:12.660 --> 00:37:14.000
 Of course it's not easy.

00:37:14.160 --> 00:37:15.300
 Of course it's not this.

00:37:15.300 --> 00:37:21.580
 My five-year-old, this morning, he's in kindergarten, and he goes, I'm the only five-year-old in the class.

00:37:22.020 --> 00:37:22.740
 Everybody's six.

00:37:23.600 --> 00:37:25.120
 And he wants to be in it.

00:37:25.500 --> 00:37:27.240
 And so my wife said, okay, you're six.

00:37:27.440 --> 00:37:29.260
 And he goes, I'm not really six.

00:37:29.520 --> 00:37:29.960
 Right?

00:37:30.240 --> 00:37:32.260
 Oh, that's perfect.

00:37:32.580 --> 00:37:32.840
 Right.

00:37:33.800 --> 00:37:38.780
 Notice how on—oh, we could just stop right here and talk for the next three hours.

00:37:39.780 --> 00:37:45.200
 Your five-year-old honestly knows who he really is.

00:37:46.040 --> 00:37:50.400
 He just said, but I'm not really six.

00:37:50.600 --> 00:37:50.840
 Yeah.

00:37:51.080 --> 00:37:55.020
 You can tell him he's six all you want to, and he knows you're lying to him.

00:37:55.100 --> 00:37:55.300
 Yeah.

00:37:55.400 --> 00:37:55.920
 Hello.

00:37:56.640 --> 00:37:58.800
 Adults, we're too dumb to know that.

00:37:58.880 --> 00:38:01.740
 We feed each other all this garbage all the time.

00:38:01.740 --> 00:38:04.880
 The five-year-old says, but I'm not really six, Dad.

00:38:04.980 --> 00:38:05.220
 Yeah.

00:38:05.320 --> 00:38:06.620
 I'm not really six, Mom.

00:38:07.000 --> 00:38:08.800
 Well, okay, you know.

00:38:09.380 --> 00:38:15.040
 Well, isn't that exactly—now, what we're talking about is the difference between

00:38:15.040 --> 00:38:18.460
 position and process.

00:38:18.620 --> 00:38:18.960
 Yeah.

00:38:19.780 --> 00:38:21.700
 Position in the kingdom of God.

00:38:22.420 --> 00:38:27.560
 You know, John, if I drop dead right now, I would go to heaven.

00:38:27.740 --> 00:38:28.080
 Yeah.

00:38:28.080 --> 00:38:36.800
 Not because I did everything right today, checked off all the boxes today, or have made sure

00:38:36.800 --> 00:38:39.340
 that I was perfectly holy today.

00:38:39.340 --> 00:38:39.580
 Yeah.

00:38:39.980 --> 00:38:40.600
 Why?

00:38:40.860 --> 00:38:49.740
 Because I'm bought, and I'm covered in the blood of Jesus, and the life of God is inside

00:38:49.740 --> 00:38:50.040
 of me.

00:38:50.040 --> 00:38:59.040
 So if I drop dead right now, God sees me as as holy as I'm ever going to be.

00:38:59.240 --> 00:38:59.500
 Yeah.

00:38:59.980 --> 00:39:06.840
 In fact, the second I was born again in God's sight, I can't even be more holy than I was

00:39:06.840 --> 00:39:14.860
 at that moment, because I'm received based on who Jesus is, not based on what I've done.

00:39:15.000 --> 00:39:15.260
 Yeah.

00:39:15.680 --> 00:39:23.660
 Now, based on, though, who Jesus is, I let the process of his life continually work out in

00:39:23.660 --> 00:39:30.740
 me, and I learn to grow up, and I learn to cooperate with that holy life in me.

00:39:30.840 --> 00:39:31.040
 Yeah.

00:39:31.240 --> 00:39:39.540
 I learn to make choices based on my love and respect and relationship again with that holy

00:39:39.540 --> 00:39:44.240
 life in me, rather than on my coming up with a list of rules.

00:39:44.420 --> 00:39:44.740
 Right.

00:39:45.280 --> 00:39:51.540
 So the relational process is what we get frustrated with.

00:39:52.400 --> 00:39:52.640
 Yes.

00:39:53.680 --> 00:39:54.060
 Yes.

00:39:54.200 --> 00:39:54.380
 Yes.

00:39:54.380 --> 00:39:56.540
 And especially our friends who struggle with addiction.

00:39:56.980 --> 00:39:57.660
 Oh, my gosh.

00:39:57.780 --> 00:39:59.520
 Worked with addiction so much.

00:39:59.660 --> 00:40:04.720
 And they're like, okay, I'm in, I'm out.

00:40:04.800 --> 00:40:05.840
 I made it this far.

00:40:06.000 --> 00:40:09.940
 I fell off the wagon, and I'd say, no, no, no, no, you did not fall off the wagon.

00:40:11.100 --> 00:40:12.800
 What do you mean I didn't fall off the wagon?

00:40:12.940 --> 00:40:13.140
 Right.

00:40:13.140 --> 00:40:18.160
 And I would say, no, no, no, you took a calculated leap, and you jumped off the wagon.

00:40:18.680 --> 00:40:25.140
 It's easier to say we fell off the wagon, but the reality is we, and every person does it.

00:40:25.440 --> 00:40:25.540
 Yeah.

00:40:25.560 --> 00:40:32.960
 We all take calculated leaps where, and those of us who are not dealing with addiction,

00:40:33.160 --> 00:40:35.600
 this is how we try to make it spiritual.

00:40:35.740 --> 00:40:37.000
 Here's how we make it sound.

00:40:37.080 --> 00:40:40.620
 We go, I don't know what happened.

00:40:40.860 --> 00:40:41.860
 That's just not me.

00:40:41.860 --> 00:40:44.020
 And I said, blah, blah, blah.

00:40:44.200 --> 00:40:45.040
 Yeah, it is me.

00:40:45.140 --> 00:40:45.320
 Yeah.

00:40:45.320 --> 00:40:45.720
 Sorry.

00:40:46.040 --> 00:40:46.680
 Yeah, it is.

00:40:46.900 --> 00:40:47.340
 Yeah, it is.

00:40:47.400 --> 00:40:49.620
 You know, I really don't want you to think it's me.

00:40:49.720 --> 00:40:50.960
 That's why I say that.

00:40:51.020 --> 00:40:54.040
 But the reality is, yeah, that's the old man.

00:40:54.160 --> 00:41:01.220
 That's the old birdie that is trying to tell the holy life of God, I want to be Lord.

00:41:01.220 --> 00:41:06.340
 And the holy life of God, Jesus, inside of us is saying, you don't seem to understand.

00:41:06.460 --> 00:41:08.000
 Birdie told me I could be Lord.

00:41:08.260 --> 00:41:08.500
 Yeah.

00:41:09.020 --> 00:41:15.160
 And so it's that process of the old man learning to die and stay dead.

00:41:15.560 --> 00:41:18.400
 I have a friend who says, don't play dead, stay dead.

00:41:18.620 --> 00:41:19.180
 Oh, yeah.

00:41:19.440 --> 00:41:19.700
 Yeah.

00:41:19.800 --> 00:41:20.160
 That's good.

00:41:20.160 --> 00:41:22.000
 If that old man's dead, just stay dead.

00:41:22.180 --> 00:41:24.220
 Get in the ground, stay there, stay dead.

00:41:24.360 --> 00:41:29.300
 Okay, and let Jesus, the resurrected Jesus, live out his life.

00:41:29.540 --> 00:41:36.440
 But that's that push and pull, and it's the difference between position and process.

00:41:36.780 --> 00:41:38.460
 Oh, man, I love that so much.

00:41:38.680 --> 00:41:39.400
 Okay, does that help?

00:41:39.400 --> 00:41:39.580
 Yeah.

00:41:39.680 --> 00:41:40.820
 Oh, that's huge.

00:41:40.920 --> 00:41:47.860
 Well, because positionally, I think people, that's so exciting when you start to believe in Jesus and you go, yes, I got this.

00:41:48.140 --> 00:41:49.440
 And then there's the growing up.

00:41:49.600 --> 00:41:51.060
 There's the process.

00:41:51.480 --> 00:41:52.680
 That's not as exciting.

00:41:53.040 --> 00:41:55.920
 Driving on 1604.

00:41:56.260 --> 00:41:59.840
 Driving on 1604 will let you know how mature you really are.

00:42:00.080 --> 00:42:01.520
 Church tells you nothing.

00:42:01.980 --> 00:42:06.960
 Go drive on the freeway, and you will discover where your maturity level really is.

00:42:07.080 --> 00:42:07.600
 Yes.

00:42:08.160 --> 00:42:08.360
 Yeah.

00:42:09.160 --> 00:42:14.880
 That is such, and I think that's such a, that's relieving in a way, right?

00:42:14.880 --> 00:42:19.460
 Because part of what you talked about is dropping the supposed to, right?

00:42:19.560 --> 00:42:22.840
 Dropping the, it was so unlike me to do this.

00:42:22.840 --> 00:42:25.500
 Oh, no, no, it doesn't really like us.

00:42:25.500 --> 00:42:27.200
 Because you keep doing it, right?

00:42:27.380 --> 00:42:30.100
 And so, okay, and so that's really, that's really relieving.

00:42:30.260 --> 00:42:30.660
 Yes.

00:42:30.760 --> 00:42:35.940
 In a way, it's also going, oh, gosh, I have so much maturity to grow, and it requires humility.

00:42:36.340 --> 00:42:36.740
 Yes.

00:42:36.920 --> 00:42:43.660
 The humility to be able to go accurately assess where you are and own it, not because you want to look a certain way.

00:42:43.660 --> 00:42:44.980
 I struggle with that personally, right?

00:42:44.980 --> 00:42:46.980
 You want to look like everything's okay.

00:42:46.980 --> 00:42:50.700
 I want to look like, let's be honest, I want you to like me.

00:42:50.960 --> 00:42:51.320
 Yeah.

00:42:51.540 --> 00:42:54.780
 You know, I want Greg over here behind the cameras to like me.

00:42:54.900 --> 00:42:55.360
 Producer Greg.

00:42:55.360 --> 00:42:56.020
 You know?

00:42:56.020 --> 00:43:00.200
 I mean, think about, we want people to like us.

00:43:00.340 --> 00:43:09.780
 Well, the reality is, how about we learn first to recognize how much Jesus truly loves us.

00:43:09.900 --> 00:43:10.200
 Mm.

00:43:12.020 --> 00:43:16.740
 And then, based on that love, what if I actually begin to like me?

00:43:16.800 --> 00:43:17.200
 Yeah.

00:43:17.740 --> 00:43:18.160
 Wow.

00:43:18.300 --> 00:43:20.200
 Because of my relationship with him.

00:43:20.340 --> 00:43:20.680
 Yeah.

00:43:20.920 --> 00:43:24.400
 And then, I don't have to worry about, do you like me?

00:43:24.740 --> 00:43:29.320
 Because I'm going to be much more concerned on, how can I bless you?

00:43:29.600 --> 00:43:30.100
 Yeah.

00:43:30.980 --> 00:43:36.460
 So, it stops becoming about me, it begins to become about you.

00:43:36.640 --> 00:43:36.980
 Yeah.

00:43:37.160 --> 00:43:40.960
 And let me tell you, that really shifts in this holy thing.

00:43:41.140 --> 00:43:41.380
 Yeah.

00:43:41.520 --> 00:43:44.500
 Shifts us into a whole new realm of walk.

00:43:44.620 --> 00:43:44.980
 Right.

00:43:44.980 --> 00:43:48.540
 Because so many people, they're so worried about, oh my gosh, I've got to be holy, I've got to

00:43:48.540 --> 00:43:50.620
 scribes and Pharisees again.

00:43:51.400 --> 00:43:59.600
 You know, if I'm really walking with Jesus, there are times I choose to do something or maybe

00:43:59.600 --> 00:44:06.400
 not do something, not based on me at all, based on the love of God in me for you.

00:44:06.560 --> 00:44:06.860
 Yeah.

00:44:07.640 --> 00:44:11.660
 And that releases me from worrying about me.

00:44:11.660 --> 00:44:12.960
 And guess what?

00:44:13.600 --> 00:44:20.920
 Holiness then becomes the natural overflow of a life relationship because I'm not spending

00:44:20.920 --> 00:44:22.700
 all my time thinking about me.

00:44:22.800 --> 00:44:23.120
 Yeah.

00:44:23.340 --> 00:44:23.820
 Wow.

00:44:23.940 --> 00:44:27.300
 You get out of the way and you let the holiness take over.

00:44:27.800 --> 00:44:28.800
 Well, yeah.

00:44:29.280 --> 00:44:29.720
 Wow.

00:44:30.260 --> 00:44:30.420
 Yeah.

00:44:30.480 --> 00:44:32.420
 Because it's really, I mean, think about it.

00:44:32.420 --> 00:44:33.540
 God says, I am holy.

00:44:33.780 --> 00:44:33.960
 Right?

00:44:34.120 --> 00:44:35.540
 He says, I am holy.

00:44:36.100 --> 00:44:37.020
 Be holy.

00:44:37.140 --> 00:44:37.560
 I'm holy.

00:44:38.100 --> 00:44:39.220
 Be holy.

00:44:39.340 --> 00:44:39.940
 I am holy.

00:44:40.240 --> 00:44:41.900
 What else does it say about God?

00:44:42.020 --> 00:44:43.980
 It says, God is love.

00:44:45.220 --> 00:44:46.940
 So holiness and love.

00:44:47.720 --> 00:44:48.500
 They're right there.

00:44:48.660 --> 00:44:50.120
 Are intimately married.

00:44:50.380 --> 00:44:50.720
 Wow.

00:44:51.260 --> 00:44:51.960
 They're married.

00:44:53.240 --> 00:44:55.360
 And see, God, let's think about this.

00:44:55.920 --> 00:45:06.120
 God is the only person in the universe that is totally congruent within himself.

00:45:07.280 --> 00:45:07.760
 Right?

00:45:07.920 --> 00:45:08.100
 Yeah.

00:45:08.340 --> 00:45:08.480
 Yeah.

00:45:08.480 --> 00:45:09.000
 He is holy.

00:45:09.180 --> 00:45:13.120
 There's nothing inside the character of God that's fighting back and forth.

00:45:13.340 --> 00:45:14.740
 You know how we fight back and forth?

00:45:14.840 --> 00:45:15.260
 Oh, my gosh.

00:45:15.360 --> 00:45:15.580
 Always.

00:45:15.780 --> 00:45:16.320
 Say that one.

00:45:16.540 --> 00:45:16.980
 Yeah.

00:45:17.580 --> 00:45:18.620
 Calm down, Bertie.

00:45:18.700 --> 00:45:19.000
 Calm down.

00:45:19.340 --> 00:45:19.740
 Patience.

00:45:19.960 --> 00:45:20.360
 Patience.

00:45:20.760 --> 00:45:22.360
 Patience is a fruit of the spirit.

00:45:23.000 --> 00:45:25.320
 I don't know why you had to do that, but you did.

00:45:25.680 --> 00:45:25.900
 Okay.

00:45:26.060 --> 00:45:27.580
 So really, what do we do?

00:45:27.600 --> 00:45:33.300
 We have these inward conversations because we're incongruent with ourselves.

00:45:33.660 --> 00:45:34.800
 Where's that coming from?

00:45:35.300 --> 00:45:39.920
 The pull between position and process.

00:45:40.240 --> 00:45:40.340
 Yeah.

00:45:41.100 --> 00:45:44.580
 The more the process goes on, what does Paul say?

00:45:44.700 --> 00:45:46.500
 We're being changed from what?

00:45:47.180 --> 00:45:50.740
 Glory to glory by the spirit of the Lord.

00:45:50.820 --> 00:45:51.300
 Oh, wow.

00:45:51.540 --> 00:45:56.600
 Notice he didn't say you're being changed from one mud puddle to the next.

00:45:56.940 --> 00:46:01.400
 You're being changed from glory to glory by the spirit of the Lord.

00:46:01.860 --> 00:46:06.460
 So the process is to bring us to the position.

00:46:06.780 --> 00:46:07.260
 Man.

00:46:07.760 --> 00:46:10.280
 Which we'll never see this side of heaven.

00:46:10.520 --> 00:46:10.860
 Yeah.

00:46:11.380 --> 00:46:12.440
 But that's okay.

00:46:12.660 --> 00:46:12.960
 Right.

00:46:13.040 --> 00:46:18.700
 And even in heaven, don't you think we'll constantly be growing as we're amazed at who God is?

00:46:18.700 --> 00:46:19.060
 Yeah.

00:46:20.060 --> 00:46:24.920
 So the whole thing is to form us into the image of Jesus.

00:46:25.220 --> 00:46:25.540
 Yeah.

00:46:26.400 --> 00:46:28.840
 Well, what was Jesus doing all the time?

00:46:29.920 --> 00:46:30.440
 Yeah.

00:46:30.540 --> 00:46:32.680
 He was, number one, honoring the Father.

00:46:32.800 --> 00:46:33.100
 That's right.

00:46:33.120 --> 00:46:34.460
 Number two, walking in obedience.

00:46:34.820 --> 00:46:35.960
 And what was that obedience?

00:46:36.400 --> 00:46:36.600
 Right.

00:46:36.860 --> 00:46:38.600
 Loving everybody around him.

00:46:38.600 --> 00:46:38.900
 Everybody.

00:46:38.900 --> 00:46:39.780
 Healing the sick.

00:46:39.960 --> 00:46:40.960
 Raising the dead.

00:46:41.460 --> 00:46:43.320
 Driving religious people crazy.

00:46:43.500 --> 00:46:44.240
 Oh, yeah.

00:46:44.360 --> 00:46:45.160
 Love that one.

00:46:47.220 --> 00:46:53.720
 So the next time some religious, yeah, looks at you and tells you how terrible you are,

00:46:53.800 --> 00:46:55.980
 just think, oh, my gosh, I matched Jesus.

00:46:56.420 --> 00:46:56.780
 Yeah.

00:46:57.200 --> 00:46:57.680
 Wow.

00:46:58.040 --> 00:47:07.080
 Oh, Bernie, that is, like, just, it's so cool and it's so clear and it's so, it's so accessible.

00:47:07.720 --> 00:47:10.060
 And I, like, I'm so thankful for that.

00:47:10.240 --> 00:47:13.360
 And as, okay, so I want to make sure that I talk to you about this.

00:47:13.640 --> 00:47:13.800
 Okay.

00:47:14.340 --> 00:47:17.200
 As we, as we, I mean, we're in the middle of a pandemic.

00:47:17.420 --> 00:47:18.820
 I shouldn't say the middle, right?

00:47:19.100 --> 00:47:20.360
 We are so at the end.

00:47:20.440 --> 00:47:20.620
 Yeah.

00:47:20.720 --> 00:47:20.960
 Okay.

00:47:21.100 --> 00:47:21.280
 Yeah.

00:47:21.360 --> 00:47:21.740
 It's done.

00:47:21.840 --> 00:47:22.660
 It's done.

00:47:22.940 --> 00:47:26.640
 It depends on who's trying to manipulate numbers, but it's done.

00:47:26.820 --> 00:47:27.340
 Fair enough.

00:47:27.400 --> 00:47:27.760
 Right.

00:47:28.000 --> 00:47:32.080
 And so we've come through this, this thing, right, that we've been dealing with that has

00:47:32.080 --> 00:47:33.200
 kind of cut us off.

00:47:33.200 --> 00:47:38.600
 And so with this holiness and with everything we're experiencing in our environment, what role

00:47:38.600 --> 00:47:40.860
 does our mental health play in all of that?

00:47:41.020 --> 00:47:41.140
 Right.

00:47:41.500 --> 00:47:46.880
 And so how does that connect to the position and the process that's going on within?

00:47:47.300 --> 00:47:53.940
 Oh, gee, I'm so glad you asked, because over in Corinthians, it says, we have the mind of

00:47:53.940 --> 00:47:54.440
 Christ.

00:47:54.920 --> 00:47:55.300
 Wow.

00:47:55.480 --> 00:48:03.860
 So the same God that looked at you and said, be holy and created in you the capacity to

00:48:03.860 --> 00:48:05.880
 receive the holiness of God.

00:48:05.960 --> 00:48:06.160
 Yeah.

00:48:06.340 --> 00:48:07.520
 Think about it now.

00:48:08.400 --> 00:48:10.140
 What else did he create in you?

00:48:10.460 --> 00:48:15.260
 The capacity to have the mind, the mind of Christ.

00:48:15.800 --> 00:48:18.460
 I don't think anybody was more mentally healthy than Jesus.

00:48:18.760 --> 00:48:19.060
 Right.

00:48:19.340 --> 00:48:19.700
 Right.

00:48:20.160 --> 00:48:24.540
 So if you don't like what your mind's doing, why don't you ask him what his mind is doing?

00:48:24.940 --> 00:48:25.380
 Okay.

00:48:25.840 --> 00:48:26.220
 Wow.

00:48:26.400 --> 00:48:26.800
 Yeah.

00:48:26.800 --> 00:48:32.360
 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, says the Lord, nor your ways like my ways.

00:48:32.500 --> 00:48:33.120
 What did he say?

00:48:33.200 --> 00:48:36.900
 My thoughts are higher than your thoughts.

00:48:36.900 --> 00:48:41.800
 My ways are higher than your ways.

00:48:41.800 --> 00:48:42.040
 Yeah.

00:48:42.340 --> 00:48:51.640
 So we can ask him, as Paul said in Romans, be transformed by the renewing of your mind.

00:48:51.860 --> 00:48:52.220
 Man.

00:48:52.620 --> 00:48:55.080
 So, well, how do you do that?

00:48:55.280 --> 00:48:55.400
 Yeah.

00:48:55.400 --> 00:48:55.660
 Okay.

00:48:55.840 --> 00:48:57.040
 Like, give me a list.

00:48:57.440 --> 00:48:58.120
 Step one.

00:48:58.280 --> 00:48:58.900
 Step two.

00:48:59.100 --> 00:48:59.800
 Step three.

00:49:00.180 --> 00:49:00.480
 Okay.

00:49:00.580 --> 00:49:02.580
 So I learned this from a friend.

00:49:02.680 --> 00:49:04.860
 I wish I could say it was original, but it's not.

00:49:05.260 --> 00:49:09.180
 If you don't like the thought you're having, have another thought.

00:49:10.960 --> 00:49:11.960
 Think about it.

00:49:12.220 --> 00:49:14.500
 Now, oh man, I just don't like how I'm thinking.

00:49:14.700 --> 00:49:15.820
 Well, replace it.

00:49:17.000 --> 00:49:20.820
 My car, I have a flat tire on my truck, and I do drive a truck.

00:49:20.960 --> 00:49:21.160
 Okay.

00:49:21.440 --> 00:49:24.180
 So I live on a ranch, have to have a truck.

00:49:24.400 --> 00:49:26.260
 I have a flat tire on my truck.

00:49:26.360 --> 00:49:31.440
 Well, I don't go out there day after day and bemoan the fact that I have a flat tire on my truck.

00:49:31.560 --> 00:49:32.960
 I change the tire.

00:49:33.140 --> 00:49:33.400
 Right.

00:49:33.520 --> 00:49:33.740
 Okay.

00:49:33.740 --> 00:49:37.140
 Or I call somebody that's bigger and stronger than I am.

00:49:37.940 --> 00:49:41.740
 But I don't moan over my flat tire.

00:49:42.200 --> 00:49:44.380
 I get a new tire.

00:49:45.040 --> 00:49:45.980
 Guess what?

00:49:46.500 --> 00:49:51.500
 Our old man thoughts are going to be down.

00:49:51.920 --> 00:49:53.140
 They're going to be sad.

00:49:53.360 --> 00:49:54.500
 They're going to be limited.

00:49:54.860 --> 00:49:57.440
 They're going to talk about how terrible I am.

00:49:57.540 --> 00:49:58.980
 They're going to be full of guilt.

00:49:59.320 --> 00:50:01.400
 They're going to sound just like the devil.

00:50:01.860 --> 00:50:03.060
 You're not good enough.

00:50:03.060 --> 00:50:04.000
 Nobody loves you.

00:50:04.100 --> 00:50:04.880
 Everybody hates you.

00:50:04.940 --> 00:50:05.740
 Go eat worms.

00:50:05.960 --> 00:50:08.860
 I mean, you know, we all know those thoughts, right?

00:50:08.980 --> 00:50:09.240
 Yeah.

00:50:09.500 --> 00:50:17.780
 Well, what happens if I change my thoughts like I change flat tires?

00:50:19.060 --> 00:50:22.340
 What if I take that thought and say, you know what?

00:50:22.360 --> 00:50:23.780
 I'm going to make a choice here.

00:50:24.020 --> 00:50:24.280
 Yeah.

00:50:24.660 --> 00:50:31.840
 It may take me a while to get you out of my head, but I am going to choose.

00:50:31.980 --> 00:50:33.340
 It's very intentional.

00:50:33.760 --> 00:50:33.900
 Yeah.

00:50:33.900 --> 00:50:35.300
 I just wish I thought differently.

00:50:35.520 --> 00:50:39.560
 Well, that's kind of like wishing you would lose weight or wishing you would start working

00:50:39.560 --> 00:50:40.560
 out on the rowing machine.

00:50:40.560 --> 00:50:42.000
 You got to go buy a rowing machine.

00:50:42.140 --> 00:50:43.960
 Then you have to make yourself get on the crazy thing.

00:50:44.260 --> 00:50:44.520
 Okay.

00:50:44.780 --> 00:50:45.880
 So what happens?

00:50:45.980 --> 00:50:48.360
 I have to take the tire off.

00:50:48.660 --> 00:50:51.660
 I have to purposefully take it over here.

00:50:51.760 --> 00:50:56.240
 Now, the good part about a tire is that it doesn't have a mind of its own, but our thoughts

00:50:56.240 --> 00:50:56.580
 do.

00:50:57.260 --> 00:51:00.440
 See, the tire doesn't get up and try to go get back on the track.

00:51:00.860 --> 00:51:01.840
 The tire just goes.

00:51:01.840 --> 00:51:01.840
 Okay.

00:51:02.040 --> 00:51:03.200
 It'll stay there.

00:51:03.380 --> 00:51:03.540
 Yeah.

00:51:03.640 --> 00:51:06.540
 Our thoughts, it's the old man thing.

00:51:06.660 --> 00:51:10.020
 Remember, the old man gets up and says, Jesus, I don't want you to be Lord.

00:51:10.100 --> 00:51:11.700
 Jesus says, no, you don't understand.

00:51:11.840 --> 00:51:13.800
 Bertie told me I am Lord here.

00:51:13.940 --> 00:51:15.180
 You have to move over.

00:51:15.300 --> 00:51:20.560
 Well, our thoughts, they have been entrenched in us for so long.

00:51:20.720 --> 00:51:22.760
 I call them old tapes.

00:51:23.220 --> 00:51:24.440
 They're old tapes.

00:51:24.520 --> 00:51:27.940
 I know we don't do tapes anymore, but, you know, see my gray?

00:51:27.940 --> 00:51:29.440
 So old tapes.

00:51:29.900 --> 00:51:31.020
 So what do we do?

00:51:31.420 --> 00:51:37.720
 I purposely look at this thought and I say, that thought doesn't sound like Jesus to me.

00:51:38.420 --> 00:51:41.800
 In fact, that thought pretty much sounds like the enemy to me.

00:51:41.820 --> 00:51:42.100
 That's right.

00:51:42.540 --> 00:51:45.980
 So that's not the thought Jesus would have.

00:51:46.940 --> 00:51:48.980
 What thought would Jesus have?

00:51:49.380 --> 00:51:49.720
 Ooh.

00:51:50.420 --> 00:51:55.040
 So if I want to know the thoughts of Jesus, where do you think I would look for them?

00:51:55.580 --> 00:51:57.920
 I mean, Scripture is a really good place.

00:51:57.940 --> 00:52:00.460
 Yeah, I think that might be the first.

00:52:00.460 --> 00:52:06.640
 And if you don't know what to look for, go get your red letter version and look for anything in red.

00:52:07.020 --> 00:52:09.280
 Well, because that's the story from people that saw it.

00:52:09.420 --> 00:52:14.260
 The eyewitnesses and the people recording his words and people going through going, this is what he said.

00:52:14.340 --> 00:52:15.180
 This is what he did.

00:52:15.420 --> 00:52:15.780
 Yes.

00:52:16.140 --> 00:52:16.540
 Okay.

00:52:16.860 --> 00:52:20.580
 So remember what he said to the woman that was taken in adultery, right?

00:52:20.580 --> 00:52:22.360
 They let all the scribes and Pharisees.

00:52:22.580 --> 00:52:23.520
 Oh, we're going to get her.

00:52:23.580 --> 00:52:24.260
 We're going to get her.

00:52:24.340 --> 00:52:25.460
 Jesus says, that's fine.

00:52:25.560 --> 00:52:27.640
 Whoever's without sin, throw the first rock.

00:52:28.900 --> 00:52:30.080
 Well, they all left.

00:52:30.240 --> 00:52:30.580
 Yeah.

00:52:30.940 --> 00:52:32.200
 And Jesus said, what?

00:52:33.220 --> 00:52:34.700
 Where are your accusers?

00:52:35.540 --> 00:52:36.760
 Nobody's condemning you.

00:52:36.800 --> 00:52:37.920
 And she said, no, sir.

00:52:38.540 --> 00:52:41.780
 He said, neither do I condemn you.

00:52:42.980 --> 00:52:45.020
 Now, listen to what he said.

00:52:46.000 --> 00:52:47.580
 Remember, he's speaking.

00:52:47.920 --> 00:52:48.180
 Yeah.

00:52:48.660 --> 00:52:50.220
 Go and what?

00:52:50.400 --> 00:52:51.220
 Sin no more.

00:52:51.360 --> 00:52:52.320
 Sin no more.

00:52:52.320 --> 00:53:00.780
 He spoke it, and it created in her the capacity to begin the process and the walk in the position.

00:53:01.020 --> 00:53:01.560
 Wow.

00:53:02.920 --> 00:53:03.400
 See?

00:53:03.960 --> 00:53:06.300
 So he said, go.

00:53:07.220 --> 00:53:08.600
 He wasn't shoving her away.

00:53:08.700 --> 00:53:10.240
 He's saying, go on your way.

00:53:10.360 --> 00:53:11.480
 Go live your life.

00:53:11.520 --> 00:53:11.760
 Yeah.

00:53:12.020 --> 00:53:15.100
 And as I speak, sin no more.

00:53:15.260 --> 00:53:21.000
 I'm creating in you the capacity to not fall into that trap.

00:53:21.000 --> 00:53:21.560
 Wow.

00:53:22.320 --> 00:53:25.000
 Did she fall into traps as she walked it out?

00:53:25.320 --> 00:53:25.760
 Duh.

00:53:25.780 --> 00:53:26.340
 She had to.

00:53:26.340 --> 00:53:26.800
 Hello.

00:53:27.520 --> 00:53:29.320
 Back and forth, up and down.

00:53:29.460 --> 00:53:29.820
 Sure.

00:53:30.380 --> 00:53:33.840
 But he created in her the capacity to keep growing.

00:53:33.940 --> 00:53:34.380
 Man.

00:53:34.860 --> 00:53:36.860
 Because divine life.

00:53:37.020 --> 00:53:37.360
 Yeah.

00:53:37.640 --> 00:53:38.560
 Is now in her.

00:53:38.960 --> 00:53:39.420
 Right.

00:53:39.660 --> 00:53:39.880
 Yeah.

00:53:39.880 --> 00:53:44.700
 Oh, well, and what you talk about is this idea that is so good for people.

00:53:44.820 --> 00:53:48.980
 Because as somebody who's dealt with mental health issues, depression, anxiety, that kind of thing.

00:53:48.980 --> 00:53:49.240
 Oh, yeah.

00:53:49.240 --> 00:53:53.280
 You talk about in such clear terms, which I appreciate.

00:53:53.400 --> 00:53:59.140
 Because sometimes it can get real, real, like, you can't grab onto it.

00:53:59.200 --> 00:54:01.140
 Nobody understands Dr. Eves.

00:54:01.420 --> 00:54:02.080
 Even doctors.

00:54:02.180 --> 00:54:02.400
 Yeah.

00:54:02.560 --> 00:54:04.920
 You know, they like to throw around all these big words.

00:54:05.020 --> 00:54:06.520
 There have been times I was in a hospital.

00:54:06.700 --> 00:54:09.200
 I heard one of my colleagues explain something to this patient.

00:54:09.420 --> 00:54:09.620
 Yeah.

00:54:09.760 --> 00:54:12.040
 And my patient was in the bed next to him.

00:54:14.160 --> 00:54:16.240
 Oh, don't hold it against me.

00:54:16.280 --> 00:54:17.120
 I'm retired now.

00:54:17.180 --> 00:54:18.660
 Nobody can hold this against me.

00:54:18.940 --> 00:54:19.240
 Okay.

00:54:19.500 --> 00:54:24.620
 So, my colleague left, and you could just feel the confusion in the room.

00:54:24.720 --> 00:54:27.460
 So, when I was through with my patient, I walked over to the other bed.

00:54:27.540 --> 00:54:30.840
 I said, do you still have questions?

00:54:31.060 --> 00:54:35.240
 And their eyes were like, you know, doctors walk in.

00:54:35.360 --> 00:54:36.900
 They go, do you have any questions?

00:54:37.260 --> 00:54:37.380
 Yeah.

00:54:37.420 --> 00:54:44.260
 Well, by the time they're through using all the doctor slang to explain stuff, you don't even know what your questions are.

00:54:44.460 --> 00:54:44.820
 Right.

00:54:45.460 --> 00:54:49.020
 And you have new, like, you got to go, I got to read a book to have a question.

00:54:49.300 --> 00:54:49.580
 What do you mean?

00:54:49.580 --> 00:54:51.260
 I don't know what to ask you.

00:54:51.360 --> 00:54:51.660
 Yeah.

00:54:52.020 --> 00:54:54.360
 Well, that's how the scribes and Pharisees were.

00:54:54.740 --> 00:54:57.620
 And that's how religion, oh, now I'm going to meddle.

00:54:57.800 --> 00:54:58.020
 Oh, good.

00:54:58.020 --> 00:54:59.820
 That's how religious people are today.

00:54:59.940 --> 00:55:00.340
 Yeah.

00:55:00.660 --> 00:55:08.160
 They've got an answer for everything that's got so much legal ease, legal religious ease in it.

00:55:08.180 --> 00:55:08.580
 Yeah.

00:55:08.720 --> 00:55:10.220
 That nobody knows what they're saying.

00:55:10.280 --> 00:55:10.560
 Right.

00:55:10.560 --> 00:55:12.280
 But Jesus was very simple.

00:55:12.440 --> 00:55:13.300
 Follow me.

00:55:13.560 --> 00:55:13.660
 Yeah.

00:55:13.880 --> 00:55:15.380
 I'll go, okay, I get it.

00:55:15.740 --> 00:55:17.260
 He kept it so simple.

00:55:17.680 --> 00:55:18.440
 Follow me.

00:55:19.240 --> 00:55:20.180
 Walk with me.

00:55:21.100 --> 00:55:22.360
 Go and sin no more.

00:55:22.600 --> 00:55:22.780
 Yeah.

00:55:22.820 --> 00:55:28.180
 I mean, he didn't say, go read the, you know, go read all 20-something chapters of Leviticus.

00:55:28.380 --> 00:55:28.780
 No.

00:55:29.880 --> 00:55:32.860
 No, but he created the capacity for her to do that.

00:55:32.940 --> 00:55:33.280
 Exactly.

00:55:33.300 --> 00:55:37.180
 And so that choice, the choice, which we have, we have the choice.

00:55:37.320 --> 00:55:37.900
 Yes, we do.

00:55:37.900 --> 00:55:39.660
 We have the choice to replace those thoughts.

00:55:39.800 --> 00:55:43.060
 Whether it's anxiety, depression, even if it's trauma, addiction.

00:55:43.800 --> 00:55:45.340
 We can replace the thoughts.

00:55:45.480 --> 00:55:47.400
 Now, here's the other thing that's so powerful.

00:55:47.760 --> 00:55:50.440
 It's not just about us replacing the thoughts.

00:55:50.980 --> 00:56:04.020
 It's about us working in a relationship with the living Jesus in our lives who is helping us replace the thoughts.

00:56:04.020 --> 00:56:07.020
 It's a relational replacement.

00:56:08.620 --> 00:56:09.600
 Can I say that again?

00:56:09.800 --> 00:56:09.940
 Say it.

00:56:09.940 --> 00:56:10.460
 That was good.

00:56:10.540 --> 00:56:11.940
 I've never said it like that before.

00:56:11.980 --> 00:56:12.660
 That's really good.

00:56:12.660 --> 00:56:15.480
 It's relational replacement.

00:56:16.020 --> 00:56:21.120
 It's not like, okay, I'm going to make a list of my 10 thoughts, and I'm going to replace them, and I'm going to work really hard on them.

00:56:21.360 --> 00:56:22.400
 It's relational.

00:56:23.040 --> 00:56:24.780
 It's very relational.

00:56:25.060 --> 00:56:25.300
 Yeah.

00:56:25.480 --> 00:56:32.060
 Jesus is helping me learn how does he think about this situation.

00:56:32.060 --> 00:56:41.720
 And the other thing, too, that we forget is, you know, just because my feelings are going crazy doesn't necessarily mean that's the truth.

00:56:41.900 --> 00:56:42.980
 That's so true.

00:56:43.080 --> 00:56:43.380
 Okay?

00:56:43.460 --> 00:56:47.420
 I mean, our feelings can go absolutely bonkers.

00:56:47.520 --> 00:56:50.400
 I can feel anxious about all kinds of stuff.

00:56:50.440 --> 00:56:50.740
 Yeah.

00:56:51.140 --> 00:56:59.160
 But that doesn't necessarily mean that my circumstances are actually anxiety-provoking.

00:56:59.400 --> 00:56:59.940
 Right.

00:56:59.940 --> 00:57:02.900
 I might just be feeling anxious inside.

00:57:03.060 --> 00:57:03.380
 Yeah.

00:57:03.660 --> 00:57:06.340
 Or my spiritual mom used to say it like this.

00:57:06.400 --> 00:57:13.720
 She used to say, you know, Satan is a skunk, and he really stinks things up.

00:57:13.860 --> 00:57:14.200
 Yeah.

00:57:14.580 --> 00:57:19.020
 But Jesus, you and Jesus together can run the skunk off.

00:57:20.340 --> 00:57:25.160
 But she would say, the skunk is long gone, but the stink is still there.

00:57:25.260 --> 00:57:26.400
 Oh, that's so true.

00:57:26.400 --> 00:57:34.600
 So the reality is, if I side with Jesus, and, you know, what does the word say?

00:57:34.740 --> 00:57:36.060
 Submit yourself to God.

00:57:36.160 --> 00:57:37.300
 Humble yourself to God.

00:57:37.440 --> 00:57:39.980
 Resist the devil, and he will what?

00:57:40.060 --> 00:57:40.500
 Flee.

00:57:40.700 --> 00:57:41.780
 Flee from you.

00:57:42.080 --> 00:57:43.820
 I've submitted myself to God.

00:57:44.160 --> 00:57:45.420
 I've humbled myself.

00:57:45.620 --> 00:57:46.980
 I've resisted the devil.

00:57:47.320 --> 00:57:48.820
 So what has happened to the devil?

00:57:49.160 --> 00:57:50.580
 The Bible says he's gone.

00:57:50.580 --> 00:57:51.220
 He's gone.

00:57:51.520 --> 00:57:53.520
 Well, then why is the stink still there?

00:57:53.740 --> 00:57:55.140
 Because he's a skunk.

00:57:55.440 --> 00:57:55.860
 Wow.

00:57:56.300 --> 00:57:57.020
 He's a skunk.

00:57:57.180 --> 00:57:57.460
 Yeah.

00:57:57.920 --> 00:58:01.680
 So will the old thoughts still try to come in?

00:58:01.840 --> 00:58:02.580
 Well, duh.

00:58:02.940 --> 00:58:03.120
 Yeah.

00:58:03.120 --> 00:58:07.560
 You think he's just going to say, okay, well, I won't fight anymore.

00:58:07.800 --> 00:58:07.960
 Yeah.

00:58:07.960 --> 00:58:10.660
 He's, how stupid do you have to be to fight God?

00:58:11.060 --> 00:58:12.600
 Yeah, it'd be pretty stupid.

00:58:12.780 --> 00:58:12.940
 Yeah.

00:58:12.940 --> 00:58:18.420
 So Satan has been this stupid, for an eternity, you think he's just going to walk away from

00:58:18.420 --> 00:58:18.800
 you?

00:58:19.100 --> 00:58:19.400
 Right.

00:58:19.660 --> 00:58:19.760
 No.

00:58:20.000 --> 00:58:21.440
 He's, but he's a skunk.

00:58:21.860 --> 00:58:22.620
 He's gone.

00:58:22.960 --> 00:58:24.180
 The stink is still there.

00:58:24.660 --> 00:58:25.840
 Plow through the stink.

00:58:26.480 --> 00:58:32.100
 Eventually, I had a husky one time that had a round with a skunk.

00:58:32.240 --> 00:58:32.460
 Yeah.

00:58:32.680 --> 00:58:35.860
 And you know, it takes a long time for that stink to go away.

00:58:35.960 --> 00:58:36.440
 Yes.

00:58:36.820 --> 00:58:38.100
 But eventually it did.

00:58:38.320 --> 00:58:38.800
 Yes.

00:58:39.160 --> 00:58:46.140
 Eventually, my husky, although he was black and white, eventually he did not smell like

00:58:46.140 --> 00:58:46.700
 a skunk.

00:58:46.980 --> 00:58:47.280
 Right.

00:58:48.040 --> 00:58:48.340
 Wow.

00:58:48.440 --> 00:58:48.640
 Okay.

00:58:48.740 --> 00:58:53.420
 And so this lingering stink, I think so much, and I think of people thinking about how they're

00:58:53.420 --> 00:58:53.820
 triggered.

00:58:54.260 --> 00:58:58.760
 I think about people reliving trauma through certain senses, right?

00:58:58.840 --> 00:58:59.040
 Right.

00:58:59.120 --> 00:59:03.080
 And so for a lot of us, I think, it seems like we're fighting the stink.

00:59:03.360 --> 00:59:03.800
 Yes.

00:59:03.900 --> 00:59:07.220
 And some people, you still have to make the decision, right?

00:59:07.220 --> 00:59:09.000
 You still have to make the decision to replace thoughts.

00:59:09.240 --> 00:59:10.200
 That's part of it.

00:59:10.320 --> 00:59:13.600
 You do have to choose to go down the process.

00:59:14.040 --> 00:59:14.120
 Right.

00:59:14.120 --> 00:59:14.960
 You have to choose the process.

00:59:15.540 --> 00:59:17.740
 But for some of us, we're fighting this lingering stink.

00:59:17.800 --> 00:59:19.500
 Oh, so let's talk about that.

00:59:19.540 --> 00:59:20.600
 Can we keep going?

00:59:20.620 --> 00:59:21.280
 Can we keep talking?

00:59:21.520 --> 00:59:21.800
 Come on.

00:59:22.000 --> 00:59:22.740
 This is gold.

00:59:22.980 --> 00:59:23.180
 Okay.

00:59:23.400 --> 00:59:27.720
 So let's talk about fighting, especially with trauma.

00:59:27.780 --> 00:59:28.800
 Let's talk about trauma.

00:59:29.040 --> 00:59:29.140
 Yeah.

00:59:29.140 --> 00:59:29.400
 Okay.

00:59:29.480 --> 00:59:30.740
 I am a trauma survivor.

00:59:31.180 --> 00:59:35.420
 So I have treated trauma, and I have been treated for trauma.

00:59:35.580 --> 00:59:37.800
 So I come at it from both angles.

00:59:38.620 --> 00:59:43.120
 So when, again, we're talking about position and process.

00:59:43.340 --> 00:59:43.480
 Yeah.

00:59:43.720 --> 00:59:45.960
 You are totally free in Jesus.

00:59:46.320 --> 00:59:47.400
 That is your position.

00:59:48.160 --> 00:59:55.900
 The process of walking through traumatic memory, listen, I've seen people, I've seen Jesus

00:59:55.900 --> 00:59:58.640
 just show up with people and zap.

00:59:59.060 --> 00:59:59.560
 And it's just.

00:59:59.560 --> 01:00:01.660
 And it's like, bang, they're done.

01:00:01.780 --> 01:00:02.120
 Okay.

01:00:02.440 --> 01:00:02.620
 Yeah.

01:00:02.620 --> 01:00:02.840
 Wow.

01:00:02.940 --> 01:00:03.740
 Praise the Lord.

01:00:03.940 --> 01:00:04.080
 That's right.

01:00:04.080 --> 01:00:05.080
 They got their miracle.

01:00:05.440 --> 01:00:06.800
 And it is a miracle.

01:00:07.020 --> 01:00:07.180
 Yes.

01:00:07.180 --> 01:00:07.340
 Okay.

01:00:07.340 --> 01:00:08.160
 And it's awesome.

01:00:08.260 --> 01:00:09.180
 And it does happen.

01:00:09.420 --> 01:00:11.020
 And it's like healing a broken leg.

01:00:11.120 --> 01:00:13.020
 I mean, it's like, it's like an arm coming back.

01:00:13.140 --> 01:00:14.560
 Like, that is a miracle.

01:00:14.700 --> 01:00:15.340
 Oh, yeah.

01:00:15.520 --> 01:00:16.420
 It's awesome.

01:00:16.980 --> 01:00:21.160
 And we all, because we're a microwave society, we all want the miracle.

01:00:21.280 --> 01:00:22.140
 We don't want the process.

01:00:22.220 --> 01:00:22.480
 Amen.

01:00:23.400 --> 01:00:26.240
 There's actually a downside to a miracle.

01:00:26.600 --> 01:00:27.240
 Okay.

01:00:27.540 --> 01:00:30.180
 And here's the downside to the miracle.

01:00:31.220 --> 01:00:37.540
 Is that I can't tell you how I got whole.

01:00:38.040 --> 01:00:38.440
 Wow.

01:00:39.640 --> 01:00:39.960
 Okay.

01:00:40.100 --> 01:00:41.060
 That's a word.

01:00:41.460 --> 01:00:42.960
 I can't tell you.

01:00:43.480 --> 01:00:43.920
 Ooh.

01:00:44.200 --> 01:00:44.560
 Okay.

01:00:44.680 --> 01:00:45.400
 That's a book.

01:00:45.580 --> 01:00:47.180
 The downside to a miracle.

01:00:47.440 --> 01:00:47.560
 I mean.

01:00:48.860 --> 01:00:49.300
 Yeah.

01:00:49.360 --> 01:00:50.500
 The downside to the miracle.

01:00:50.660 --> 01:00:51.860
 I can't tell you how.

01:00:52.280 --> 01:00:52.640
 Okay.

01:00:52.820 --> 01:00:54.780
 Remember the blind man over in John.

01:00:54.960 --> 01:00:55.140
 Yeah.

01:00:55.180 --> 01:00:55.400
 Right.

01:00:55.680 --> 01:00:56.580
 Jesus does what?

01:00:56.640 --> 01:00:57.020
 Now, listen.

01:00:57.200 --> 01:00:58.400
 You want Jesus to meet you?

01:00:58.400 --> 01:00:58.940
 I'm sorry.

01:00:59.060 --> 01:01:00.220
 He walks up to this guy.

01:01:00.220 --> 01:01:06.160
 He spits on the ground, makes mud, smears it on his face, and says, go wash.

01:01:06.520 --> 01:01:07.180
 Oh, yeah.

01:01:07.280 --> 01:01:08.060
 Thanks, Jesus.

01:01:08.660 --> 01:01:10.000
 Jesus blessed me.

01:01:10.100 --> 01:01:12.120
 And he spits on you.

01:01:12.520 --> 01:01:14.700
 I mean, you know, this is not religious.

01:01:15.020 --> 01:01:15.220
 Yeah.

01:01:15.500 --> 01:01:15.900
 Relational.

01:01:16.200 --> 01:01:16.560
 Yes.

01:01:16.740 --> 01:01:17.920
 Now, think about it.

01:01:17.980 --> 01:01:19.740
 It says that God, how did God make?

01:01:20.440 --> 01:01:20.780
 Man.

01:01:21.120 --> 01:01:23.120
 He formed him out of the dust of the ground.

01:01:23.240 --> 01:01:24.320
 What was Jesus doing?

01:01:24.480 --> 01:01:24.640
 Yeah.

01:01:24.840 --> 01:01:26.520
 He created eyeballs for him.

01:01:26.660 --> 01:01:27.060
 Wow.

01:01:27.180 --> 01:01:27.760
 Out of the mud.

01:01:27.960 --> 01:01:28.740
 Anyway, that's a side.

01:01:28.760 --> 01:01:29.840
 That's a side message.

01:01:29.960 --> 01:01:30.180
 Okay.

01:01:30.380 --> 01:01:30.980
 That's a bonus.

01:01:31.240 --> 01:01:31.400
 Yeah.

01:01:31.460 --> 01:01:32.640
 That's just a bonus message.

01:01:32.800 --> 01:01:33.840
 So what does he do?

01:01:33.880 --> 01:01:34.820
 He says, go wash.

01:01:35.000 --> 01:01:35.220
 Right?

01:01:35.660 --> 01:01:37.620
 And then the scribes and Pharisees are.

01:01:38.620 --> 01:01:41.100
 Now, never mind the guy can see.

01:01:41.480 --> 01:01:42.880
 He was born blind.

01:01:43.660 --> 01:01:44.060
 Religious.

01:01:44.320 --> 01:01:46.720
 Listen, I'm telling you, religious people are like this.

01:01:46.900 --> 01:01:47.100
 Yeah.

01:01:47.480 --> 01:01:50.140
 All they care about is what rule did you break?

01:01:50.280 --> 01:01:50.600
 Amen.

01:01:51.040 --> 01:01:53.800
 And they totally missed the amazing power of God.

01:01:53.960 --> 01:01:54.200
 Yeah.

01:01:54.520 --> 01:01:57.400
 I don't care that you're saying who did that to you and how did they do it.

01:01:57.420 --> 01:01:59.340
 And they kept asking him, how did it happen?

01:01:59.420 --> 01:02:00.100
 How did it happen?

01:02:00.400 --> 01:02:01.280
 And he couldn't tell me.

01:02:01.380 --> 01:02:02.140
 He said, I don't know.

01:02:02.480 --> 01:02:03.140
 He made mud.

01:02:03.180 --> 01:02:04.140
 He put it on my eyes.

01:02:04.200 --> 01:02:05.800
 He told me to go wash and I see.

01:02:05.880 --> 01:02:08.280
 And I've told you guys again and again and again.

01:02:08.640 --> 01:02:08.880
 Okay.

01:02:09.060 --> 01:02:11.120
 But he couldn't tell him how it happened.

01:02:11.340 --> 01:02:11.600
 Yeah.

01:02:12.100 --> 01:02:13.780
 That's the downside of the miracle.

01:02:14.000 --> 01:02:14.360
 Man.

01:02:14.580 --> 01:02:14.900
 Let me.

01:02:15.160 --> 01:02:17.080
 So let's talk about trauma memory.

01:02:17.700 --> 01:02:18.420
 Oh, yeah.

01:02:18.940 --> 01:02:20.580
 I've been in my own therapy.

01:02:20.860 --> 01:02:22.660
 Years and years ago, right?

01:02:22.740 --> 01:02:26.740
 I mean, you have to get yourself squared away before you can help anybody else get squared away.

01:02:27.480 --> 01:02:33.680
 And so when it comes to trauma and processing trauma, I didn't get the miracle.

01:02:34.240 --> 01:02:35.980
 I walked through, oh, yeah.

01:02:36.240 --> 01:02:36.520
 Yeah.

01:02:36.520 --> 01:02:40.560
 You know, those weekly, sometimes bi-weekly, sometimes tri-weekly.

01:02:40.600 --> 01:02:41.280
 Oh, my gosh.

01:02:41.300 --> 01:02:43.360
 I think I need to see my therapist again.

01:02:43.560 --> 01:02:43.680
 Yeah.

01:02:43.680 --> 01:02:44.380
 Sessions, you know.

01:02:44.820 --> 01:02:45.940
 What happens?

01:02:46.680 --> 01:02:48.440
 I can tell you the process.

01:02:48.980 --> 01:02:51.420
 I can tell you the good, the bad, the ugly.

01:02:51.800 --> 01:02:55.340
 I can tell you the times I didn't believe it was ever going to happen.

01:02:55.480 --> 01:02:55.580
 Yeah.

01:02:55.580 --> 01:02:57.200
 I can tell you the breakthrough times.

01:02:57.340 --> 01:02:57.540
 Right.

01:02:57.620 --> 01:02:59.300
 I can tell you how hard it was.

01:02:59.480 --> 01:02:59.660
 Yeah.

01:02:59.660 --> 01:03:00.900
 I can talk about loneliness.

01:03:01.400 --> 01:03:05.400
 I can talk about praying and feeling like I'm just beating my head against the wall.

01:03:05.480 --> 01:03:05.880
 Yes.

01:03:05.880 --> 01:03:08.820
 I can talk about, oh, my gosh, I remember when that happened.

01:03:08.880 --> 01:03:10.740
 And it was like light bulbs came on.

01:03:10.740 --> 01:03:16.640
 God, I can tell you the process because I've walked it.

01:03:16.760 --> 01:03:17.160
 Yeah.

01:03:17.640 --> 01:03:27.480
 So sometimes in the mercy of God, he walks us through the process so that we can have compassion

01:03:27.480 --> 01:03:30.460
 on people and walk with them through the process.

01:03:31.180 --> 01:03:31.480
 Oof.

01:03:31.800 --> 01:03:32.960
 That's beautiful.

01:03:33.240 --> 01:03:33.500
 See?

01:03:33.940 --> 01:03:36.260
 So God in his wisdom.

01:03:36.640 --> 01:03:36.900
 Yeah.

01:03:37.360 --> 01:03:39.300
 You know, we talk about mental health.

01:03:39.440 --> 01:03:40.640
 I want mental health.

01:03:40.920 --> 01:03:41.080
 Yeah.

01:03:41.180 --> 01:03:43.200
 I hope you're ready for a lifelong journey.

01:03:43.440 --> 01:03:43.800
 Yeah.

01:03:45.220 --> 01:03:47.520
 Because it's the process of growing up.

01:03:47.640 --> 01:03:48.840
 And so I think about my kids.

01:03:48.960 --> 01:03:54.140
 And one of the things that my nine-year-old is doing sometimes is like something bad will

01:03:54.140 --> 01:03:54.400
 happen.

01:03:54.500 --> 01:03:56.520
 And he'll say, you can't understand.

01:03:57.680 --> 01:03:58.500
 This happened.

01:03:58.720 --> 01:04:00.460
 You don't know what it's like to be nine.

01:04:00.960 --> 01:04:04.720
 And I mean, that's what he's not saying that, but he's saying that.

01:04:04.860 --> 01:04:05.540
 You can understand.

01:04:05.760 --> 01:04:07.220
 Because from his viewpoint.

01:04:07.460 --> 01:04:08.320
 I've been 38.

01:04:08.580 --> 01:04:10.280
 You were never nine.

01:04:10.480 --> 01:04:10.700
 Yeah.

01:04:10.720 --> 01:04:11.360
 I was dad.

01:04:11.520 --> 01:04:12.460
 I've always been dad.

01:04:12.780 --> 01:04:13.080
 Dad.

01:04:13.320 --> 01:04:14.260
 What's the matter with you?

01:04:14.260 --> 01:04:19.960
 But part of the beauty of the process is I go, I know what it's like because I experienced

01:04:19.960 --> 01:04:20.300
 it.

01:04:20.680 --> 01:04:20.880
 Yeah.

01:04:20.880 --> 01:04:26.420
 And so if I was nine and all of a sudden 38, it's a miracle.

01:04:27.320 --> 01:04:32.880
 But the downside to the miracle is that I could never walk him through it.

01:04:33.080 --> 01:04:33.360
 Exactly.

01:04:33.380 --> 01:04:35.620
 I could never, the compassion.

01:04:35.760 --> 01:04:36.380
 You said compassion.

01:04:36.660 --> 01:04:40.600
 I could never really have compassion because I can just go, I don't know.

01:04:40.900 --> 01:04:41.740
 It just happened.

01:04:42.740 --> 01:04:47.060
 Which is exactly why Jesus became human.

01:04:50.500 --> 01:04:54.060
 Exactly why Jesus became human.

01:04:54.680 --> 01:04:56.660
 Why do you have compassion on your son?

01:04:56.860 --> 01:04:59.240
 Oh, I've been a boy.

01:04:59.620 --> 01:05:00.060
 Yeah.

01:05:00.520 --> 01:05:02.480
 And there's another reason too.

01:05:02.820 --> 01:05:05.120
 He is your son.

01:05:05.120 --> 01:05:05.500
 Son.

01:05:05.740 --> 01:05:06.000
 Yeah.

01:05:06.440 --> 01:05:09.300
 So you've got a double thing going on.

01:05:09.580 --> 01:05:09.800
 Wow.

01:05:09.980 --> 01:05:17.000
 Not only have you been there, you in a very real sense gave him his life.

01:05:17.200 --> 01:05:17.600
 Wow.

01:05:18.620 --> 01:05:20.340
 God, right?

01:05:20.540 --> 01:05:21.040
 Mm-hmm.

01:05:21.460 --> 01:05:27.260
 Father God, you are born again.

01:05:27.260 --> 01:05:27.760
 Yeah.

01:05:27.760 --> 01:05:28.000
 Yeah.

01:05:28.240 --> 01:05:34.280
 Has given us life, John said, and this life is in his son.

01:05:34.440 --> 01:05:34.960
 Mm-hmm.

01:05:35.040 --> 01:05:35.420
 Right?

01:05:35.700 --> 01:05:36.260
 Mm-hmm.

01:05:36.360 --> 01:05:46.060
 So as the father loves the son, and then Jesus turned around and says, the father has sent me, I am sending you.

01:05:46.200 --> 01:05:48.900
 Look at the, see the process here?

01:05:49.420 --> 01:05:53.000
 Jesus even said, Father, oh, it's over in John 17.

01:05:53.520 --> 01:05:58.880
 Let them know that you love them just like you love me.

01:05:58.880 --> 01:06:06.980
 Now, that'll blow you right out of the water, but our heavenly father loves you just like he loves Jesus.

01:06:07.760 --> 01:06:12.780
 So, but Jesus had to walk the process through.

01:06:13.160 --> 01:06:13.420
 Yeah.

01:06:13.680 --> 01:06:15.680
 Jesus was a carpenter.

01:06:16.600 --> 01:06:20.120
 Jesus had to learn to use a hammer.

01:06:20.460 --> 01:06:20.880
 Yes.

01:06:20.940 --> 01:06:23.320
 Do you think he ever hit his thumb?

01:06:23.620 --> 01:06:24.640
 He had to have.

01:06:24.660 --> 01:06:25.580
 Thank you.

01:06:25.820 --> 01:06:26.040
 Of course.

01:06:26.040 --> 01:06:28.800
 He was human and divine, but he didn't skip the process.

01:06:28.800 --> 01:06:31.720
 Exactly, but he probably never said what we said when we did our thumb.

01:06:32.020 --> 01:06:32.260
 Okay.

01:06:32.720 --> 01:06:35.880
 So, but that's, what is, he understands the process.

01:06:37.080 --> 01:06:39.400
 He had to keep his room clean.

01:06:39.580 --> 01:06:39.900
 Yeah.

01:06:40.060 --> 01:06:42.000
 And you think you had trouble with your siblings.

01:06:42.180 --> 01:06:44.320
 How would you like Jesus to be your big brother?

01:06:44.520 --> 01:06:46.020
 He never gets in trouble.

01:06:46.960 --> 01:06:47.400
 Really?

01:06:47.880 --> 01:06:51.100
 I mean, hey, let's all go do da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da.

01:06:51.160 --> 01:06:52.740
 Let's fool mom and dad.

01:06:52.820 --> 01:06:55.840
 Jesus is the one that says, I don't think that's a good idea.

01:06:56.040 --> 01:06:56.960
 Oh, Jesus.

01:06:56.960 --> 01:06:57.780
 Oh, it's him again.

01:06:58.960 --> 01:07:00.440
 So, but what happened?

01:07:00.600 --> 01:07:02.380
 He knows the process.

01:07:02.860 --> 01:07:04.440
 He doesn't know it up here.

01:07:04.780 --> 01:07:07.000
 He lived the process.

01:07:07.760 --> 01:07:09.600
 You think we've been rejected?

01:07:10.000 --> 01:07:11.480
 I've never been put on a cross.

01:07:11.600 --> 01:07:11.860
 No.

01:07:12.100 --> 01:07:13.420
 I've never been flogged.

01:07:13.680 --> 01:07:18.260
 I mean, I've never been like hauling him out to the edge of town and start to push him over the cliff.

01:07:18.420 --> 01:07:30.800
 So, all of the process of the walk between position and that walk into maturity, Jesus did it.

01:07:31.600 --> 01:07:39.080
 So, when we go to him and we say, oh, I'm having trouble with these thoughts, he understands.

01:07:39.420 --> 01:07:39.660
 Yeah.

01:07:40.020 --> 01:07:41.240
 Because guess what?

01:07:41.740 --> 01:07:44.880
 He had to surrender his thoughts, too.

01:07:45.160 --> 01:07:45.520
 Hmm.

01:07:46.440 --> 01:07:46.780
 Hmm.

01:07:47.060 --> 01:07:47.360
 Hmm.

01:07:47.440 --> 01:07:47.620
 Hmm.

01:07:47.680 --> 01:07:47.880
 Hmm.

01:07:47.880 --> 01:07:53.020
 The difference is that we don't always surrender our thoughts.

01:07:53.220 --> 01:07:53.340
 Yeah.

01:07:54.000 --> 01:07:57.900
 But he perfectly surrendered his thoughts.

01:07:58.220 --> 01:07:59.800
 But that doesn't mean there wasn't a battle.

01:08:00.420 --> 01:08:00.540
 Right.

01:08:00.580 --> 01:08:02.860
 Why do you think he was out in the wilderness 40 days?

01:08:03.200 --> 01:08:03.480
 Yeah.

01:08:04.120 --> 01:08:07.100
 It was a 40-day battle.

01:08:07.360 --> 01:08:07.680
 Wow.

01:08:09.160 --> 01:08:12.240
 And every instant, he's having to choose.

01:08:12.440 --> 01:08:12.860
 Mm-hmm.

01:08:13.120 --> 01:08:13.460
 Right?

01:08:13.720 --> 01:08:14.820
 He's having to choose.

01:08:15.160 --> 01:08:16.300
 Having to choose.

01:08:17.220 --> 01:08:18.240
 Not my will.

01:08:18.600 --> 01:08:20.200
 We think of him praying in the garden.

01:08:20.340 --> 01:08:20.480
 Yeah.

01:08:20.480 --> 01:08:21.140
 Not my will.

01:08:21.820 --> 01:08:29.100
 I'm telling you, I believe that he was saying, not my will, from probably four or five years old.

01:08:29.220 --> 01:08:29.640
 Mm-hmm.

01:08:30.640 --> 01:08:31.060
 Okay?

01:08:31.440 --> 01:08:31.840
 Mm-hmm.

01:08:31.840 --> 01:08:39.060
 Because, because what was happening, something inside of him, right, knew who he was.

01:08:39.060 --> 01:08:43.320
 Even when you're four or five, you know, think about it.

01:08:44.280 --> 01:08:45.560
 I'm an artist.

01:08:45.700 --> 01:08:47.960
 My first degree was in graphic art and design.

01:08:48.420 --> 01:08:53.440
 I mean, just give me a crayon and let me create something.

01:08:53.440 --> 01:08:53.840
 Yeah.

01:08:53.840 --> 01:08:56.460
 But my second favorite thing were horses.

01:08:56.920 --> 01:08:57.280
 Mm-hmm.

01:08:57.700 --> 01:08:59.260
 I'm a country girl at heart.

01:08:59.380 --> 01:08:59.540
 Yeah.

01:08:59.640 --> 01:09:03.120
 Now, I had to get to my 50s before I could get out in the country and have my horses.

01:09:03.120 --> 01:09:03.440
 Right.

01:09:03.920 --> 01:09:08.360
 But it was who I was created to be.

01:09:08.520 --> 01:09:08.780
 Yeah.

01:09:08.780 --> 01:09:16.700
 So, we know way down deep inside, it's that bend that God has created John to be.

01:09:16.700 --> 01:09:17.000
 Mm-hmm.

01:09:17.280 --> 01:09:22.660
 So, nevertheless, Jesus had to learn to surrender his thoughts.

01:09:22.860 --> 01:09:23.200
 Yeah.

01:09:23.460 --> 01:09:30.200
 Which is why, when we're struggling with surrendering our thoughts, we have a safe place to go.

01:09:30.400 --> 01:09:30.880
 Wow.

01:09:31.340 --> 01:09:32.520
 He receives us.

01:09:32.740 --> 01:09:33.180
 Wow.

01:09:33.380 --> 01:09:36.800
 He receives us with compassion, just like you do with your son.

01:09:36.980 --> 01:09:37.200
 Yeah.

01:09:37.320 --> 01:09:39.580
 He really does understand.

01:09:39.720 --> 01:09:40.960
 He's not just saying it.

01:09:40.960 --> 01:09:41.300
 Yeah.

01:09:42.160 --> 01:09:43.240
 But it's even better.

01:09:44.160 --> 01:09:47.540
 Not only does he understand, he has the power to change you.

01:09:47.840 --> 01:09:48.320
 Mm-hmm.

01:09:49.520 --> 01:09:49.960
 See?

01:09:50.240 --> 01:09:53.900
 So, as much as you can share with your son.

01:09:54.480 --> 01:09:54.720
 Yeah.

01:09:54.800 --> 01:09:59.780
 And help him make better choices, you don't have power like God has.

01:09:59.780 --> 01:10:00.100
 No.

01:10:00.380 --> 01:10:00.980
 Yeah.

01:10:01.280 --> 01:10:01.540
 Yeah.

01:10:01.900 --> 01:10:04.140
 So, think about it.

01:10:04.760 --> 01:10:13.500
 Father can help the son, but with Jesus, if we surrender, he has the power to change us.

01:10:14.500 --> 01:10:15.580
 Change our thoughts.

01:10:17.680 --> 01:10:18.680
 All right, Bertie.

01:10:19.500 --> 01:10:21.200
 I could talk to you forever.

01:10:21.440 --> 01:10:21.720
 Okay.

01:10:21.920 --> 01:10:22.220
 I know.

01:10:22.860 --> 01:10:25.840
 You know, the mind can only receive what the seat can endure.

01:10:26.140 --> 01:10:31.240
 So, yeah, they may have fallen asleep or something or fallen over.

01:10:31.580 --> 01:10:33.880
 I promise you, nobody has fallen asleep.

01:10:34.380 --> 01:10:36.680
 This is incredible, mind-blowing stuff.

01:10:36.840 --> 01:10:38.220
 I got to have you back.

01:10:38.780 --> 01:10:40.400
 I got to have you back and chat with you.

01:10:40.520 --> 01:10:40.880
 Happy.

01:10:41.020 --> 01:10:45.100
 Happy to come back and chat about anything you want to chat about if I know about it.

01:10:45.120 --> 01:10:45.440
 Yeah.

01:10:45.440 --> 01:10:47.740
 But if I don't know about it, I'll just tell you, I don't know.

01:10:47.840 --> 01:10:48.780
 You got the wrong person.

01:10:49.280 --> 01:10:49.640
 Okay.

01:10:49.780 --> 01:10:52.380
 So, here's what you don't want to have me come talk about.

01:10:52.440 --> 01:10:52.600
 Yeah.

01:10:53.140 --> 01:10:53.460
 Cooking.

01:10:55.240 --> 01:10:55.600
 Okay.

01:10:55.840 --> 01:10:56.480
 No cooking.

01:10:56.640 --> 01:10:57.660
 We can talk about horses.

01:10:57.900 --> 01:10:58.180
 Okay.

01:10:58.380 --> 01:10:59.560
 We can talk about trucks.

01:10:59.700 --> 01:11:01.020
 We can talk about hay bales.

01:11:01.200 --> 01:11:02.940
 We can talk about Jesus all day long.

01:11:02.960 --> 01:11:04.100
 We can talk about mental health.

01:11:04.160 --> 01:11:04.600
 I'm good.

01:11:04.760 --> 01:11:05.000
 Yeah.

01:11:05.600 --> 01:11:06.300
 No cooking.

01:11:06.660 --> 01:11:06.940
 Okay.

01:11:07.040 --> 01:11:07.320
 Okay.

01:11:07.380 --> 01:11:10.220
 No cooking and probably no technology.

01:11:10.580 --> 01:11:10.880
 All right.

01:11:10.980 --> 01:11:12.820
 No technology or cooking with Bertie.

01:11:13.080 --> 01:11:13.960
 There we go.

01:11:13.960 --> 01:11:18.020
 Oh, Dr. Roberta Jones-Hall, otherwise known as Bertie, thank you for being here.

01:11:18.180 --> 01:11:20.400
 Thank you guys for tuning in and being a part of it.

01:11:20.820 --> 01:11:21.500
 This was awesome.

01:11:22.140 --> 01:11:24.380
 Thank you for hanging out with us and joining the conversation.

01:11:24.780 --> 01:11:29.220
 Click the subscribe button wherever you're listening to this to get more better on the

01:11:29.220 --> 01:11:30.040
 inside.

01:11:30.720 --> 01:11:31.480
 Hey, I love y'all.

01:11:31.920 --> 01:11:32.820
 And we'll have you back soon.

01:11:33.420 --> 01:11:33.980
 Hey, yeah, John.

01:11:34.060 --> 01:11:37.520
 So, yeah, that was a great interview there with Roberta Jones-Hall.

01:11:38.040 --> 01:11:40.440
 Man, just some great perspectives there.

01:11:40.500 --> 01:11:43.740
 What was that takeaway for you kind of listening to it the second time around?

01:11:43.980 --> 01:11:47.440
 Yeah, the thing that stood out to me this time was her talking about holiness because

01:11:47.440 --> 01:11:51.140
 so often holiness becomes this like sacred, untouchable perfection.

01:11:51.420 --> 01:11:53.600
 And she really grounded it in real life.

01:11:53.600 --> 01:11:58.820
 And speaking the idea of Jesus, you know, God said, be holy as I am holy, as opposed to

01:11:58.820 --> 01:12:04.200
 an admonition from an angry parent or a God on high casting thunderbolts.

01:12:04.300 --> 01:12:10.420
 It's actually speaking the capacity for holiness in you, the capacity to be more like Jesus in

01:12:10.420 --> 01:12:10.820
 creation.

01:12:10.980 --> 01:12:12.760
 Be holy as I am holy.

01:12:12.980 --> 01:12:16.200
 And now that capacity is within us as believers in Jesus.

01:12:16.380 --> 01:12:18.540
 And it's like, OK, I can do this.

01:12:18.680 --> 01:12:21.100
 Jesus has given me the capacity to fill.

01:12:21.200 --> 01:12:24.300
 And so that was that was something I listened to this time.

01:12:24.660 --> 01:12:28.140
 Always the downside of a miracle always blows my mind.

01:12:28.220 --> 01:12:30.380
 But the holiness thing was what stood out to me this time.

01:12:30.820 --> 01:12:31.020
 Yeah.

01:12:31.140 --> 01:12:38.400
 I'm looking at be holy as I am holy as a capacity, as opposed to like a mandate or a challenge.

01:12:38.400 --> 01:12:40.560
 It's like you are you are built for this.

01:12:40.620 --> 01:12:41.600
 You are grounded in this.

01:12:42.220 --> 01:12:43.460
 You have permission.

01:12:43.980 --> 01:12:49.520
 I'm giving you permission to be holy as opposed to I have the mandate.

01:12:49.520 --> 01:12:51.260
 I'm smacking you with this ruler.

01:12:52.380 --> 01:12:55.080
 You know, do this or you fail and you suck at life.

01:12:56.140 --> 01:12:56.300
 Yeah.

01:12:56.700 --> 01:12:58.580
 I mean, what what what a great perspective.

01:12:58.680 --> 01:13:02.920
 What a healthy perspective for us is as we're looking at our relationship with God, Abba

01:13:02.920 --> 01:13:04.760
 Father and embracing that.

01:13:05.360 --> 01:13:09.140
 And what, John, honestly, my favorite part about this is it's just one of the many conversations

01:13:09.140 --> 01:13:16.620
 that you're having really addressing a completely different perspective, digital, how it works,

01:13:16.680 --> 01:13:22.440
 embracing the soul care idea among church staff in general and embracing a healthier mindset

01:13:22.440 --> 01:13:26.080
 as as we are literally pouring ourselves into others.

01:13:26.080 --> 01:13:27.800
 We ourselves need to be filled.

01:13:27.800 --> 01:13:29.200
 And so I love that challenge.

01:13:29.260 --> 01:13:30.520
 And thank you for doing that, man.

01:13:31.300 --> 01:13:36.620
 Hey, we're going to put information to subscribe to John's podcast better on the inside.

01:13:36.920 --> 01:13:39.820
 I will put it in the show notes and push it out via different ways.

01:13:39.940 --> 01:13:44.780
 But with love for you and the people out there, listen to some of the stuff he's talking about.

01:13:44.860 --> 01:13:50.900
 Share it, you know, even outside the digital ministry perspective, because it reaches a much larger church perspective.

01:13:50.900 --> 01:13:56.200
 And if our churches are healthy, our people will be healthy and our ministry will be healthy.

01:13:56.200 --> 01:14:03.900
 And as much as we try to bang the drum that we've got to work 60, 70, 80, 90 hours a week,

01:14:04.340 --> 01:14:11.260
 oftentimes it's the healthy approach that actually allows God to do what he's going to do in that space

01:14:11.260 --> 01:14:14.860
 instead of us feeling like we have to force something to happen.

01:14:15.260 --> 01:14:17.200
 You know, the best advice—oh, man.

01:14:17.420 --> 01:14:21.660
 Listen, this is the best advice I've been given in the past two years.

01:14:22.320 --> 01:14:27.740
 Angela Craig, mutual friend here through the Church Digital, and she's getting involved in the Digital Church Network.

01:14:28.180 --> 01:14:33.700
 She said—and actually, it was about the Digital Church Network, because I had cast her a while ago.

01:14:33.780 --> 01:14:34.880
 Hey, I'm thinking about doing this.

01:14:34.900 --> 01:14:35.360
 What do you think?

01:14:35.800 --> 01:14:38.400
 And she said to me, she said, Jeff, don't run in front of God.

01:14:39.280 --> 01:14:41.740
 And I was like, dang it, Angela, you're right.

01:14:43.020 --> 01:14:44.480
 And so I did.

01:14:44.580 --> 01:14:45.660
 I slowed it down.

01:14:45.840 --> 01:14:47.140
 I prayed about it.

01:14:47.600 --> 01:14:52.420
 And instead of being the guy at the end of the dock, jumping in the water when nobody's around me,

01:14:52.820 --> 01:14:55.420
 I was like, hey, let's go together towards this.

01:14:55.480 --> 01:14:59.400
 And God started opening some incredible doors that I don't think I could do myself.

01:14:59.620 --> 01:15:05.060
 And so a lot of that is in this mindset of doing things healthily and in control

01:15:05.060 --> 01:15:09.260
 and allowing God to work through you instead of working for God.

01:15:09.360 --> 01:15:10.400
 And so that would be the challenge.

01:15:10.480 --> 01:15:11.200
 Better on the inside.

01:15:11.600 --> 01:15:11.980
 John Powell.

01:15:12.060 --> 01:15:14.240
 John, thank you for jumping in here with this.

01:15:14.280 --> 01:15:15.320
 I appreciate it.

01:15:15.780 --> 01:15:19.200
 But, and man, Lily, any closing thoughts as we're landing the plane here?

01:15:19.440 --> 01:15:19.840
 No, man.

01:15:19.900 --> 01:15:22.420
 Jeff, thank you so much for letting me be a part of the network.

01:15:22.600 --> 01:15:23.640
 I love doing this.

01:15:23.680 --> 01:15:26.320
 And I'm so excited about the vision of what's going on.

01:15:27.480 --> 01:15:31.440
 It's not just the thing that we're doing just to do.

01:15:31.680 --> 01:15:34.100
 Like, there's really a mission and a vision behind this.

01:15:34.240 --> 01:15:36.340
 And so thank you for letting me be a part of that.

01:15:36.400 --> 01:15:40.240
 And I love the idea of the learning of, right, not getting ahead of God.

01:15:40.320 --> 01:15:44.900
 In fact, like the win, the win is the biggest problem when it comes to God.

01:15:45.000 --> 01:15:47.900
 That's because we're impatient because our lives are short.

01:15:48.160 --> 01:15:48.760
 He's eternal.

01:15:49.300 --> 01:15:53.000
 So the win that I'll write about that, Jeff, I'm going to write something about that.

01:15:53.400 --> 01:15:57.520
 So look for content from John on the church digital blog, subscribe to the podcast.

01:15:57.620 --> 01:15:59.920
 We'll put links to both those in the show notes.

01:15:59.920 --> 01:16:03.880
 And you definitely want to keep in touch and share the stuff that he's talking about as

01:16:03.880 --> 01:16:07.900
 he's trying to help all of us as staff embrace a healthier mindset.

01:16:08.420 --> 01:16:09.620
 And we're going to land the plane right there.

01:16:09.620 --> 01:16:15.120
 And so this, for John, better on the inside, this is Jeff with the Church Digital and Digital

01:16:15.120 --> 01:16:15.680
 Church Network.

01:16:15.860 --> 01:16:17.540
 I still geek out anytime I get to say that.

01:16:17.600 --> 01:16:19.060
 With the Digital Church Network, that's awesome.

01:16:19.240 --> 01:16:20.020
 We're going to land the plane.

01:16:20.140 --> 01:16:21.560
 Hey, hope you enjoyed the show.

01:16:21.620 --> 01:16:24.820
 We'll see you next time here at the Church Digital Podcast for the next Takeover.

01:16:25.320 --> 01:16:26.780
 I'll tell you who's coming up next week.

01:16:27.060 --> 01:16:27.460
 See you later.

01:16:27.520 --> 01:16:27.920
 Have a good one.

01:16:28.120 --> 01:16:28.240
 Bye.