WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:01.820 Welcome to the Church Digital Podcast. 00:00:02.300 --> 00:00:06.340 Through this podcast, learn about how God is using technology and innovation 00:00:06.340 --> 00:00:09.400 in digital and digital environments around the world. 00:00:09.860 --> 00:00:13.800 Our goal? To help churches like yours learn to be the church digitally. 00:00:14.480 --> 00:00:19.420 Our heart? That churches like yours will discover a newfound focus on disciple-making 00:00:19.420 --> 00:00:21.440 that will revolutionize your church. 00:00:21.840 --> 00:00:24.480 And now, your host, here's Jeff Reed. 00:00:24.960 --> 00:00:28.200 All right, we got episode 203 with the Church Digital Podcast. 00:00:28.200 --> 00:00:29.460 Hey, it's Jeff here. 00:00:29.860 --> 00:00:33.160 The Church Digital, of course, Digital Church Network. 00:00:33.300 --> 00:00:35.520 I want to talk a little bit about that up front. 00:00:35.600 --> 00:00:36.340 Man, we're excited. 00:00:36.460 --> 00:00:38.780 We're going to be doing, here with Season 3 with the podcast, 00:00:38.920 --> 00:00:41.980 we're going to be talking more about some of the incredible things, 00:00:42.080 --> 00:00:45.200 these stories, the opportunities, and the network, the relationships 00:00:45.200 --> 00:00:48.300 we're building here with Digital Church Network. 00:00:48.420 --> 00:00:52.140 And everybody that's listening to this podcast, I want to give you a sneak peek. 00:00:52.200 --> 00:00:53.060 I want to give you an invite. 00:00:53.200 --> 00:00:56.660 We have soft-launched an online community. 00:00:56.660 --> 00:00:57.700 Here's what I want you to do. 00:00:57.740 --> 00:01:03.300 I want you to go to fam, F-A-M, dot, digitalchurch, dot, network. 00:01:03.780 --> 00:01:06.560 Fam, F-A-M, dot, digitalchurch, dot, network. 00:01:06.780 --> 00:01:11.240 We're doing an online community for people that are passionate about digital church, 00:01:11.440 --> 00:01:13.420 digital ministry, digital discipleship. 00:01:13.680 --> 00:01:14.280 You know, it's funny. 00:01:14.400 --> 00:01:16.740 I talk with hundreds of people about this. 00:01:17.200 --> 00:01:19.960 And so often it's, hey, Jeff, I was all alone. 00:01:20.600 --> 00:01:22.000 Jeff, I didn't know anybody. 00:01:22.480 --> 00:01:23.720 Everybody thought that I was crazy. 00:01:23.880 --> 00:01:25.200 Everybody thought that I was nuts. 00:01:25.340 --> 00:01:29.880 Everybody thought that I was weird because they didn't see ministry the way that I saw it. 00:01:30.420 --> 00:01:32.920 And then the story usually goes like, and then I found you on Google, 00:01:33.000 --> 00:01:36.380 or I found the podcast on Google, or I found some blog that you had written. 00:01:36.380 --> 00:01:38.240 And all of a sudden things started to make sense. 00:01:38.920 --> 00:01:40.660 And so, listen, we're creating a community. 00:01:41.140 --> 00:01:46.960 We've already got a couple hundred people in there that are just jacked up and excited about digital ministry. 00:01:47.100 --> 00:01:49.860 And so I want to invite you to come be a part of the fam, 00:01:49.920 --> 00:01:53.500 of the family that we're putting together here with Digital Church Network. 00:01:53.700 --> 00:01:56.200 And look for more of that coming in season three, 00:01:56.360 --> 00:01:59.920 tipping off somewhere around March here in 22. 00:02:00.860 --> 00:02:03.780 Commercial over, what is that like, you know, slash commercial. 00:02:03.980 --> 00:02:06.300 We're done, and let's actually get into the podcast here. 00:02:06.660 --> 00:02:07.640 Excited about this one. 00:02:07.700 --> 00:02:08.920 We're in takeover season. 00:02:09.060 --> 00:02:14.700 We had Tom Pounder did a takeover a couple weeks ago doing TCD Sidekick. 00:02:14.800 --> 00:02:21.820 Last week we had John Pyle coming in and doing a mental health in his podcast, 00:02:21.820 --> 00:02:23.260 Better on the Inside. 00:02:23.820 --> 00:02:30.300 Side note, I confess some things on that podcast I have never said publicly before in any fashion anywhere. 00:02:30.840 --> 00:02:34.940 So if you really want to know kind of like the scary stuff, you go, okay, yeah. 00:02:35.040 --> 00:02:38.820 But no, seriously, there's really some stuff that I talked about in there I've never said before. 00:02:38.940 --> 00:02:40.160 And so it's kind of wigging me out. 00:02:40.240 --> 00:02:40.960 You won't get the inside. 00:02:41.060 --> 00:02:41.840 Go back to 202. 00:02:42.000 --> 00:02:47.320 But I'm excited here about 203 because we're getting in here with some new friends. 00:02:47.880 --> 00:02:54.100 So we're talking with Hector Martinez and Sarah Kinzer who do the Pocket Pulpit Podcast. 00:02:54.320 --> 00:02:59.020 Hey, I said it all in a row without, there's a lot of Ps in that sentence, Pocket Pulpit Podcast. 00:02:59.020 --> 00:03:07.140 And excited for them to join the Church Digital Podcast Network and to just become the family of what we're building here with the Church Digital. 00:03:07.240 --> 00:03:11.020 So Hector, Sarah, thank you for coming on and excited to have you. 00:03:11.100 --> 00:03:13.380 Part of the family here of what's going on. 00:03:13.660 --> 00:03:15.500 So, hey, you know, tell me just a little bit. 00:03:16.000 --> 00:03:19.020 I tell you what, Hector, tell us a little bit about yourself. 00:03:19.060 --> 00:03:19.800 Let's start with you. 00:03:19.900 --> 00:03:22.900 Tell us a little bit about yourself and kind of what's your ministry story. 00:03:22.900 --> 00:03:33.240 Yeah, so I'm originally from Texas, was studying to be a youth pastor, and life circumstances caused me to have to leave school. 00:03:33.680 --> 00:03:38.600 And I met the pastor that I now serve with down in Texas on a return visit. 00:03:39.020 --> 00:03:44.160 So I've been doing youth ministry in Seattle, Washington for about seven years. 00:03:44.480 --> 00:03:54.300 And the pandemic kind of makes a gray area, but the pandemic really caused me to kind of rethink what did I want ministry to look like? 00:03:54.300 --> 00:04:04.740 And, you know, doors that were closing on youth ministry, but opening in the online world, both my own community growing and then being able to watch this thing grow. 00:04:05.320 --> 00:04:10.340 And so I've really pressed into the idea of online ministry and digital discipleship. 00:04:10.980 --> 00:04:11.960 I love it. 00:04:12.020 --> 00:04:16.820 And, you know, there were so many opportunities in this COVID season and people shifting. 00:04:17.100 --> 00:04:21.840 It's funny to see people shifting towards digital ministry and embracing more of that side. 00:04:21.840 --> 00:04:35.900 It's funny to see churches that are shifting away from digital ministry and even feeling that tension and have had so many conversations with pastors and ministry leaders who are just kind of feeling like they're being stuck and being pulled in different directions. 00:04:36.200 --> 00:04:37.000 And so love that. 00:04:37.080 --> 00:04:37.760 Hector, where do you live? 00:04:37.900 --> 00:04:38.840 You said, but. 00:04:39.020 --> 00:04:40.040 Oh, I'm in Seattle, Washington. 00:04:40.240 --> 00:04:41.100 Seattle now with that. 00:04:41.220 --> 00:04:45.020 And so, Sarah, let's tell us a little bit about your story. 00:04:45.120 --> 00:04:45.980 What does this look like? 00:04:46.000 --> 00:04:47.440 How did you get started in all this? 00:04:47.720 --> 00:04:49.360 So I'm on the other side of the country. 00:04:49.360 --> 00:04:50.140 I'm in Virginia. 00:04:51.220 --> 00:04:54.620 And so I've actually never sat in the same room with Hector. 00:04:54.900 --> 00:04:59.920 So when we say like online relationships are real deal, like we absolutely believe that. 00:05:02.300 --> 00:05:10.660 Well, before I met Hector and before I was doing online stuff, I was working on a book that I wrote. 00:05:10.960 --> 00:05:18.240 And everything in my heart, just that I was hearing from God when I pray about, he'd say that the next thing I have for you is on the other side of this book. 00:05:19.240 --> 00:05:26.440 And so in 2019, I published the book and was then like, okay, let me like did it. 00:05:26.520 --> 00:05:27.200 What's next? 00:05:28.120 --> 00:05:29.900 And I had been sitting down. 00:05:30.060 --> 00:05:39.720 So this is the end of 2019, right before 2020 with people that I worked with and just coming up with idea after idea after idea with a digital discipleship stuff. 00:05:40.480 --> 00:05:44.040 And just kept hearing, you know, like this is, this is great. 00:05:44.240 --> 00:05:45.920 It's cool. 00:05:46.200 --> 00:05:49.400 It's, it's seems needed, but I don't think it's now. 00:05:49.400 --> 00:05:55.500 And I would say, I don't know what it is, but there's something in me that says the next thing we have to lean into is online. 00:05:55.500 --> 00:05:56.680 Like digital is coming. 00:05:57.260 --> 00:06:05.900 And, um, in January of 2020, like I had just some really big picture vision as to what God had next for me. 00:06:06.060 --> 00:06:12.680 And then, um, you know, like everybody, as everybody's story goes right now, and then COVID happened. 00:06:13.680 --> 00:06:18.960 And, um, so as COVID happened, I said, okay, well, what can I do? 00:06:19.160 --> 00:06:22.580 Just, you gave me this huge picture and I don't know how to get there. 00:06:22.600 --> 00:06:23.660 So what can I do? 00:06:23.660 --> 00:06:34.820 And so, um, God just gave me small, simple things that I just started trying on the internet, trying online, um, little experiments here and there. 00:06:35.280 --> 00:06:37.380 And, um, a friend introduced me to Twitter. 00:06:37.560 --> 00:06:44.320 I got on, on Twitter, met Hector, and we started having conversations and things just took off from there. 00:06:44.780 --> 00:06:46.000 Yeah, that's, that's great. 00:06:46.060 --> 00:06:52.000 You guys are literally on opposite sides of, of the country, you know, separated by four different time zones. 00:06:52.560 --> 00:07:05.680 And, uh, and, and, and I found a friendship, a ministry partnership and really rallying around, um, the, you know, social media, digital discipleship and, and, and the importance of that. 00:07:05.800 --> 00:07:08.060 Sarah, what was the name of the book you didn't mention? 00:07:08.420 --> 00:07:12.440 Well, it's called Abide the Day-to-Day Demystification of Holiness. 00:07:12.840 --> 00:07:13.160 Interesting. 00:07:13.280 --> 00:07:14.800 So we'll throw a link in the, in the show notes. 00:07:14.880 --> 00:07:16.160 You can dive into that. 00:07:16.340 --> 00:07:17.120 I love my book. 00:07:17.660 --> 00:07:21.460 You know, it's not, it's, I don't think it's ever going to be a bestseller, but I love my book. 00:07:21.460 --> 00:07:23.600 You write the books as a journey for yourself. 00:07:24.060 --> 00:07:25.440 Like that, that's how you grow. 00:07:25.560 --> 00:07:26.400 That's how you develop. 00:07:26.660 --> 00:07:29.960 And, and if people want to buy it, that's awesome. 00:07:30.280 --> 00:07:35.340 But more often than not, it's, man, I had an opportunity to grow personally through this. 00:07:35.500 --> 00:07:45.860 And so I've just, I've heard that, that time and time again, but we'll, we'll throw the link in there and you can, you can grow with Sarah's journey as, as, as, as she's exploring and demystifying holiness. 00:07:45.860 --> 00:07:47.620 So that's, that's great. 00:07:47.620 --> 00:07:59.940 So, but what, what, what I love about their, their, their podcast in this, this partnership is really the, the, the, the practically simple approach of, of what they're, they're bringing into this. 00:07:59.940 --> 00:08:09.560 Like what, and this, this is going to sound weird, but you're not, you're not having a lot of, like, you know, Tom's been doing digital ministry since like, I think he was one of the forerunners. 00:08:09.920 --> 00:08:20.400 I, you know, I've, I've been doing this for a long time myself and, and, and so oftentimes, you know, I use, use big words, big ideas, big concepts, and I'm already 10 steps behind everybody else. 00:08:20.400 --> 00:08:28.900 But very few people, and they're talking social media about different things, but honing into, man, how can we use this for discipleship? 00:08:29.000 --> 00:08:41.760 How do we use this for, for church purposes, beyond communication, beyond, I was working with an organization eventually, and it was like, you're, you're doing so busy promoting events. 00:08:41.760 --> 00:08:46.040 It actually, you're, the voice that you're saying doesn't sound like you actually care about people. 00:08:46.260 --> 00:08:49.480 You're just trying to drive them to the next event. 00:08:49.600 --> 00:08:55.100 You're not actually taking the time to talk with them, engage with them, and listen to them in the social media. 00:08:55.320 --> 00:08:58.700 And, and how many of our churches are guilty of that same approach? 00:08:59.200 --> 00:09:10.760 And so, like, I just have loved getting to know Hector and Sarah and, and digging into Pocket Pulpit podcast once again, second time I've said in a row correctly without screwing it up. 00:09:10.760 --> 00:09:13.340 So I am excited two in a row here. 00:09:13.600 --> 00:09:16.540 Let me ask you all, why, why, why digital ministry? 00:09:16.780 --> 00:09:21.180 So Hector, you were doing student ministry, you pivoted in, in, in COVID. 00:09:21.360 --> 00:09:29.560 Sarah, you wrote the book right before, you know, and there, there was a pivot around this, but the book itself wasn't, it doesn't sound like it was digital ministry. 00:09:29.560 --> 00:09:32.020 You're going, both of you are going in two different directions. 00:09:32.140 --> 00:09:33.020 How did you end up here? 00:09:33.380 --> 00:09:34.060 Sarah, go first. 00:09:34.100 --> 00:09:35.220 Tell us, how did you end up here? 00:09:35.400 --> 00:09:37.640 Well, I started doing those little experiments. 00:09:37.640 --> 00:09:41.060 You know, I started asking people, you know, can I pray for you? 00:09:41.480 --> 00:09:49.300 And I thought, I don't think anybody, anybody will, you know, who would want somebody to pray for them, tell them what's wrong with them. 00:09:49.400 --> 00:09:52.280 But from the first week, people were very vulnerable. 00:09:53.000 --> 00:09:57.840 And I began to see just how you couldn't buy that kind of vulnerability in person. 00:09:57.840 --> 00:10:08.140 It would take years for someone to trust you with the kind of things that people would bring to me for me, just saying on Facebook and Instagram, can I pray with you? 00:10:08.220 --> 00:10:21.940 And when I realized how easy it was for somebody who didn't have, I didn't have a degree in marketing or digital anything. 00:10:22.680 --> 00:10:28.220 And I was just willing, I was just willing to do whatever God asked me to do. 00:10:29.060 --> 00:10:30.480 And it was so easy. 00:10:30.680 --> 00:10:35.540 And I want people to know, I want people to know that this isn't something you need a master's for. 00:10:35.720 --> 00:10:42.620 This is something you just need to be willing to do what God asks us to do. 00:10:42.660 --> 00:10:45.080 And that's just to be the church where you are. 00:10:45.180 --> 00:10:46.140 And we're online. 00:10:46.520 --> 00:10:58.280 That's so cool and so necessary to kind of look at these tools as community and a valid community, a helpful community, a restoring community. 00:10:59.100 --> 00:11:02.380 Yeah, there's bad, but there's good beyond the bad. 00:11:02.540 --> 00:11:09.240 And the good, by the way, can help even at a spiritual level, which gets me into the show here. 00:11:09.340 --> 00:11:15.400 Talk to me a little bit about what's the theme, what's the heart behind Pocket Pulpit Podcast? 00:11:15.920 --> 00:11:24.580 Yeah, I think, you know, one of the things, so the tagline of the show is, you know, the Pocket Pulpit Podcast is an exploration in social media ministry. 00:11:25.360 --> 00:11:27.840 And so the idea is that we're not experts. 00:11:28.480 --> 00:11:33.600 You know, this is a growing, you know, as you said, like this has been an ongoing thing for decades. 00:11:33.860 --> 00:11:46.060 And the rapid rise of social media and the amount of people that have joined it, the way that we interact online changes day to day, week to week. 00:11:46.420 --> 00:12:04.580 But really, it's an exploration with different people where when we see people who are using social media in a way that is, as Sarah was explaining, like creating safe places, such as our friend Kirk, who every week is asking, how can I pray for you? 00:12:04.580 --> 00:12:19.340 And following up and building relationships to somebody like Doug that we're going to feature here, you know, who is trying to help think about, like, how do you be a person of peace in digital spaces? 00:12:19.340 --> 00:12:29.680 And how do you combat the way that, sure, the way that the algorithm, you know, the fallout with what an algorithm can do? 00:12:30.040 --> 00:12:31.140 How do you combat that? 00:12:31.240 --> 00:12:32.680 And how do you think about it? 00:12:32.680 --> 00:12:44.980 To somebody like Dr. Beth Allison Barr, who is really seeing the benefit of social media to give women a platform and women a voice. 00:12:44.980 --> 00:13:01.060 And you don't, it's removing the barriers to impact and influence, not just your local neighborhood, but really in certain spaces of the world, you know, globally. 00:13:01.740 --> 00:13:03.480 Awesome. Well, I can't wait to hear it. 00:13:03.760 --> 00:13:05.260 Again, we'll talk about it afterwards. 00:13:05.540 --> 00:13:09.120 I've already just, even hearing that, I'm like, oh my gosh, I want to totally unpack that. 00:13:09.480 --> 00:13:11.380 But we got Pocket Pulpit Podcast. 00:13:12.120 --> 00:13:14.540 Hector Martinez, Sarah Kinzer here. 00:13:15.260 --> 00:13:16.460 Check out the show notes. 00:13:16.460 --> 00:13:18.360 There's opportunities to subscribe into that. 00:13:18.740 --> 00:13:20.460 Thechurch.digital slash podcast. 00:13:20.760 --> 00:13:29.840 There's links there to subscribe to Pocket Pulpit Podcast, as well as the other shows that are on the network and would love to get connected here. 00:13:30.180 --> 00:13:32.500 So we got the Pocket Pulpit Podcast. 00:13:32.640 --> 00:13:37.620 Hector and Sarah coming in here with the episode with Doug Bursch. 00:13:38.100 --> 00:13:43.340 Social media posting piece in the takeover here of the Church Digital Podcast. 00:13:43.620 --> 00:13:44.140 Okay, everybody. 00:13:44.580 --> 00:13:45.080 Here you go. 00:13:45.480 --> 00:13:48.240 The incarnation is Christ comes in the flesh, right? 00:13:48.520 --> 00:13:53.700 It's not that God said, hey, everybody, I got a New Testament, and he threw it down from heaven, just like, here you go. 00:13:54.320 --> 00:14:00.640 The New Testament came out of embodied ministry, that Christ, God in the flesh, dwelt amongst us. 00:14:01.100 --> 00:14:03.400 And so the internet, we are disembodied. 00:14:03.480 --> 00:14:04.340 We don't see each other. 00:14:04.400 --> 00:14:05.320 We're not in the room. 00:14:05.900 --> 00:14:13.700 And it has a tendency to dehumanize us from these personal interactions where we try to find out who this person is, what their heart is. 00:14:14.040 --> 00:14:15.160 How can I connect with them? 00:14:15.200 --> 00:14:17.380 What is God saying to them and working through them? 00:14:17.680 --> 00:14:21.240 That takes more energy in this platform. 00:14:21.380 --> 00:14:22.980 It just does. 00:14:23.040 --> 00:14:24.320 Because we're not in the room. 00:14:24.460 --> 00:14:25.860 People become ideologies. 00:14:26.060 --> 00:14:27.040 They become characters. 00:14:27.320 --> 00:14:34.340 We just see them as, you know, points of an argument, not as a human being made in the image of God. 00:14:43.120 --> 00:14:44.520 Well, hey, welcome. 00:14:44.960 --> 00:14:47.040 This is, what do we even call this again? 00:14:47.440 --> 00:14:49.480 The Pocket Pulpit Podcast. 00:14:50.240 --> 00:14:50.980 I'm Hector. 00:14:51.400 --> 00:14:55.220 And today we have, obviously, my co-host, Sarah. 00:14:56.540 --> 00:14:56.860 That's me. 00:14:56.860 --> 00:14:59.700 And today we also have our guest, Doug Bursch. 00:15:00.340 --> 00:15:06.800 And we're just looking forward to getting to chat with him and talk about some of his areas of expertise. 00:15:08.360 --> 00:15:10.260 And, yeah, just learn and chat. 00:15:10.660 --> 00:15:14.440 So, Doug, can you just introduce yourself? 00:15:14.560 --> 00:15:15.480 Just tell us who you are. 00:15:16.420 --> 00:15:19.940 I thought you were going to have me say Pocket Pulpit Podcast three times fast. 00:15:20.260 --> 00:15:21.520 And I don't know if I can do that. 00:15:22.300 --> 00:15:26.160 But a little bit about me. 00:15:26.520 --> 00:15:28.140 I'm going to give a 30-minute introduction. 00:15:28.340 --> 00:15:29.160 No, I am. 00:15:30.180 --> 00:15:30.880 What am I? 00:15:31.000 --> 00:15:32.000 I'm getting older. 00:15:32.440 --> 00:15:33.560 I got four kids. 00:15:33.980 --> 00:15:36.400 My third kid is graduating from high school. 00:15:36.500 --> 00:15:37.060 I just did. 00:15:37.140 --> 00:15:37.820 That's crazy. 00:15:38.500 --> 00:15:41.180 Lovely wife that I've been married to for a while. 00:15:41.260 --> 00:15:42.280 And she'll tell me how long. 00:15:42.360 --> 00:15:44.120 I don't quite remember, but it's been a while. 00:15:44.940 --> 00:15:46.340 And I'm a pastor. 00:15:47.180 --> 00:15:49.020 And I also do other stuff. 00:15:49.120 --> 00:15:50.360 Writing, teaching. 00:15:50.780 --> 00:15:52.880 I just kind of call it evangelist stuff. 00:15:52.960 --> 00:15:55.680 Stuff that doesn't fit within the four walls of the church. 00:15:56.100 --> 00:15:58.120 And that's kind of me. 00:15:58.280 --> 00:16:00.840 My heart is a heart for reconciliation. 00:16:01.360 --> 00:16:04.960 To communicate in a way where we bring people closer together and closer to God. 00:16:05.040 --> 00:16:06.960 So that's kind of my mission, whatever I'm doing. 00:16:08.180 --> 00:16:08.620 Awesome. 00:16:09.140 --> 00:16:09.660 So you are... 00:16:10.560 --> 00:16:12.560 I was thinking about this before we talked. 00:16:12.720 --> 00:16:13.660 And there is so many... 00:16:14.660 --> 00:16:16.880 You're on the Pocket Pulpit. 00:16:17.380 --> 00:16:18.560 But also, you're a pastor. 00:16:19.040 --> 00:16:19.960 And you're a podcaster. 00:16:20.380 --> 00:16:21.220 And you're a parent. 00:16:21.600 --> 00:16:22.340 And you're a partner. 00:16:22.600 --> 00:16:23.560 Which was... 00:16:23.560 --> 00:16:24.720 I mean, I heard... 00:16:24.720 --> 00:16:27.420 I listened to your podcast episode where you talked about your wife. 00:16:27.460 --> 00:16:29.420 And it was very much a partner relationship. 00:16:29.660 --> 00:16:30.340 Yeah, very much. 00:16:30.560 --> 00:16:31.800 You're from Puget Sound. 00:16:32.400 --> 00:16:35.000 And you wrote Posting Peace. 00:16:35.180 --> 00:16:35.600 There we go. 00:16:35.600 --> 00:16:38.140 And when I preach, I never use alliteration. 00:16:38.280 --> 00:16:39.440 So I don't know what that's all about. 00:16:39.780 --> 00:16:42.120 But yeah, I forgot I didn't put the podcast. 00:16:42.280 --> 00:16:43.860 But the podcast is called Fairly Spiritual. 00:16:44.120 --> 00:16:45.940 So that's no P's in that. 00:16:46.280 --> 00:16:47.720 So, but yeah, it's... 00:16:47.720 --> 00:16:49.900 I do a lot of little things. 00:16:50.060 --> 00:16:51.180 I don't know if I do anything well. 00:16:51.260 --> 00:16:52.440 But that's kind of how my mind is. 00:16:52.460 --> 00:16:53.860 I want to do 100 things at once. 00:16:54.320 --> 00:16:57.080 But also sometimes just hang out with the family and do nothing at all. 00:16:57.140 --> 00:16:58.400 So that's kind of how I vacillate. 00:16:59.720 --> 00:17:02.660 Well, the last P I want to ask you about is platform. 00:17:02.660 --> 00:17:04.320 What platforms are you on? 00:17:04.380 --> 00:17:05.520 And what's your preferred platform? 00:17:05.880 --> 00:17:07.620 Where can people find you if you want them to? 00:17:08.300 --> 00:17:09.780 Yeah, this is an interesting discussion. 00:17:10.020 --> 00:17:10.920 Preferred platforms. 00:17:11.160 --> 00:17:12.320 I'm on a lot of platforms. 00:17:12.520 --> 00:17:13.880 Some I do very little posting. 00:17:14.120 --> 00:17:15.320 So I have Facebook. 00:17:15.480 --> 00:17:20.080 Doug Bursch is Fairly Spiritual is kind of that generic page besides my private page. 00:17:20.640 --> 00:17:24.180 Then Fairly Spiritual is my handle on Twitter, Insta. 00:17:24.320 --> 00:17:26.500 I use it occasionally, but I don't know. 00:17:26.860 --> 00:17:29.580 My struggle is going between all those different things. 00:17:29.680 --> 00:17:32.320 I think a lot of us just kind of settle in one area, our groove. 00:17:32.320 --> 00:17:35.100 And so Twitter is the place that I settled in. 00:17:35.280 --> 00:17:39.940 But I think I have a LinkedIn profile because I was legally obliged to have one. 00:17:40.040 --> 00:17:41.740 And I just don't want to take the time to shut it down. 00:17:42.300 --> 00:17:43.980 And Pinterest is a thing, I think. 00:17:44.160 --> 00:17:46.680 And I have something there, but I have no idea how to use it. 00:17:46.760 --> 00:17:53.300 So it just exists there just as a memorial to a time that I once thought it was wise to 00:17:53.300 --> 00:17:54.060 be on that platform. 00:17:54.220 --> 00:17:55.140 So that's where I'm at. 00:17:55.840 --> 00:17:56.200 Awesome. 00:17:56.540 --> 00:17:57.540 I don't understand Pinterest. 00:17:57.540 --> 00:17:58.960 I understand that it is social. 00:17:59.220 --> 00:18:00.920 I don't ever use it in a social way. 00:18:01.260 --> 00:18:01.500 Yeah. 00:18:01.640 --> 00:18:02.520 I just couldn't use it. 00:18:02.600 --> 00:18:03.020 I didn't know. 00:18:03.140 --> 00:18:04.640 Like, people explain it to me. 00:18:04.920 --> 00:18:08.660 And I still didn't understand what I was doing as I was doing. 00:18:08.740 --> 00:18:09.860 And why are we doing this? 00:18:09.900 --> 00:18:11.520 Which I'm sure is true with many platforms. 00:18:11.640 --> 00:18:13.840 But for me, I just didn't connect with it. 00:18:15.000 --> 00:18:15.560 Hmm. 00:18:16.980 --> 00:18:19.160 Now I'm thinking about Pinterest and the ways to use it. 00:18:20.380 --> 00:18:21.720 I'm sure we could find somebody. 00:18:21.880 --> 00:18:22.200 Absolutely. 00:18:22.740 --> 00:18:23.160 I bet. 00:18:23.360 --> 00:18:23.680 I bet. 00:18:24.040 --> 00:18:25.100 That really would be good. 00:18:25.160 --> 00:18:26.840 Because I think some of us, we're not against it. 00:18:26.860 --> 00:18:27.980 We're not trying to even belittle it. 00:18:28.020 --> 00:18:28.700 We're just, tell me? 00:18:28.780 --> 00:18:30.440 I don't know how to do this thing. 00:18:31.000 --> 00:18:31.960 Am I doing it right? 00:18:32.000 --> 00:18:33.840 That's how I always feel whenever I do something there. 00:18:34.080 --> 00:18:35.380 And is this right? 00:18:35.600 --> 00:18:37.040 So I don't know if that's a good way to use it. 00:18:38.180 --> 00:18:41.280 Well, you know, I mean, we're not experts with Pinterest. 00:18:41.580 --> 00:18:44.800 And Sarah and I really aren't experts in the social media that we're in. 00:18:44.820 --> 00:18:46.200 We're just trying things. 00:18:46.700 --> 00:18:50.480 But there are a lot of experts in different fields of social ministry. 00:18:51.540 --> 00:18:56.180 Doug, you are about as close as it comes to an expert that we've had a conversation with. 00:18:57.320 --> 00:19:02.580 So can you tell us a little bit about your background with tech, social media? 00:19:03.300 --> 00:19:11.240 How does that impact just as you're shifting into being pastor and just using that and leveraging it? 00:19:11.580 --> 00:19:11.800 Sure. 00:19:11.840 --> 00:19:12.520 That's a good question. 00:19:12.680 --> 00:19:17.740 Probably the greatest expert we've met is some 12-year-old who just knows the technology better than everyone. 00:19:18.100 --> 00:19:24.060 For me, the area that I do have some expertise is I did my doctoral work in this. 00:19:24.300 --> 00:19:29.460 And I also worked in media in different contexts of how technology is influencing us, 00:19:29.480 --> 00:19:31.920 which is kind of a bigger issue than what is the latest platform. 00:19:31.920 --> 00:19:36.380 We don't know if Facebook or Twitter or anything will be around 10 years from now or five years from now. 00:19:36.720 --> 00:19:40.140 But the reality is technology is influencing us. 00:19:40.220 --> 00:19:42.900 And internet technology is influencing the way we communicate. 00:19:43.160 --> 00:19:50.220 So I come from a background where, as a pastor, just dealing with how technology is impacting people, 00:19:50.480 --> 00:19:56.360 I actually worked for an internet startup company way back when they had these IPOs launching 00:19:56.360 --> 00:19:58.620 and people were making millions of dollars off their stocks. 00:19:58.620 --> 00:20:05.500 And that was early days where just the ability to stream something online was a profound thing where it didn't take a long time. 00:20:05.920 --> 00:20:11.460 But I worked with those early pioneers of this technology and kind of saw how they interacted with each other 00:20:11.460 --> 00:20:14.340 and some of the dysfunctional ways that they interacted with each other. 00:20:15.020 --> 00:20:19.880 And then I worked in radio, Christian radio, which, you know, radio is kind of dying out there. 00:20:19.960 --> 00:20:24.120 But I got to see how that media or that medium influences people. 00:20:24.620 --> 00:20:33.360 And then with my doctoral work, I got interested in this concept of how much a medium influences our messaging. 00:20:33.360 --> 00:20:35.400 And I think this is what Christians need to understand. 00:20:35.540 --> 00:20:37.980 We sometimes have this idea, well, the message is the same. 00:20:38.040 --> 00:20:39.220 We just have a different platform. 00:20:39.720 --> 00:20:44.860 But the reality is these platforms change what we communicate and how we communicate. 00:20:45.560 --> 00:20:50.640 And any kind of medium, for instance, the printing press is a medium. 00:20:51.340 --> 00:20:52.860 And that changed how we communicate. 00:20:53.260 --> 00:20:56.480 And we even know that today, who can write a book? 00:20:57.180 --> 00:21:00.180 Well, people who are organized can write a book at some level. 00:21:00.620 --> 00:21:03.260 So even that reality, that might be very simple. 00:21:03.420 --> 00:21:04.180 What does that mean? 00:21:04.220 --> 00:21:09.040 Well, that means then our books are written by organized people, but maybe not by random, 00:21:09.280 --> 00:21:13.580 abstract people who are just kind of all over the place, who maybe have something to say about God. 00:21:13.960 --> 00:21:18.340 So even if we learn about God through books, it's going to be changed. 00:21:18.340 --> 00:21:24.960 The message, what messages we hear, what's communicated, what isn't communicated, is changed by the message. 00:21:25.080 --> 00:21:28.260 A book has to be a certain length, you know, it has to be a certain style. 00:21:28.480 --> 00:21:29.880 That changes what we hear. 00:21:30.000 --> 00:21:32.060 We found that with radio, with television. 00:21:32.720 --> 00:21:34.900 And now we're finding that with the internet as well. 00:21:35.000 --> 00:21:39.900 And I don't think we're taking that seriously enough, that actually these mediums are changing our messaging, 00:21:40.560 --> 00:21:45.840 changing our identities, and actually changing the way we abide together in person as well, 00:21:45.840 --> 00:21:48.940 as we begin to use these certain mediums more than others. 00:21:49.900 --> 00:22:01.180 Well, so it's interesting, just you talked about, you know, with the book, it kind of is this specific corner of being able to get a message out, right? 00:22:01.240 --> 00:22:04.020 Or the way the message is addressed. 00:22:04.340 --> 00:22:05.740 But you just wrote a book. 00:22:06.480 --> 00:22:10.000 And so I'm interested, why did you write a book? 00:22:10.120 --> 00:22:13.340 Why was the book the medium that you chose? 00:22:14.040 --> 00:22:17.260 Is it that you saw a need in the world that you wanted to address? 00:22:17.600 --> 00:22:19.440 And I think you answered that a little bit. 00:22:19.540 --> 00:22:22.620 But was it a result of your experiences, both? 00:22:23.100 --> 00:22:23.880 Just something else? 00:22:24.400 --> 00:22:25.380 What was that? 00:22:25.720 --> 00:22:26.480 Well, that's a good question. 00:22:26.540 --> 00:22:28.540 Just what form we use to communicate the message. 00:22:28.700 --> 00:22:32.120 I'll talk to authors and say, are you just someone who writes a book? 00:22:32.160 --> 00:22:33.960 Or do you have someone who's communicating a message? 00:22:34.020 --> 00:22:38.440 And if you're communicating a message, then you're using all kinds of different forms. 00:22:39.540 --> 00:22:42.840 And that's something I think you have to decide with any communication. 00:22:43.120 --> 00:22:46.840 Do I have a message that I'm trying to get out in as many forms as possible? 00:22:47.140 --> 00:22:48.780 Or am I just someone who writes books? 00:22:48.820 --> 00:22:49.900 And those could be different things. 00:22:50.060 --> 00:22:52.800 I'm not saying that you couldn't be someone who just likes to write books. 00:22:53.440 --> 00:22:55.140 For me, a couple things. 00:22:55.240 --> 00:22:58.720 One, some of these issues take longer than a tweet, take longer than a Facebook post. 00:22:59.120 --> 00:23:03.320 There's something that happens even with social media technology where we take things as very temporal. 00:23:03.320 --> 00:23:06.720 When we post them there, everyone is kind of the same authority. 00:23:06.920 --> 00:23:08.780 We just kind of assume this is some thought someone had. 00:23:08.860 --> 00:23:09.960 And I have a thought and you have a thought. 00:23:10.380 --> 00:23:14.800 There's something about when you put it in book form that says, I've put some thought into this. 00:23:15.000 --> 00:23:16.380 There might be some study behind it. 00:23:16.420 --> 00:23:22.580 For instance, my book has, I don't know, like 150 citations of scholars and experts and other people. 00:23:22.740 --> 00:23:26.600 So that gets people maybe saying, maybe this has a little bit more substance. 00:23:26.740 --> 00:23:27.560 I mean, it might not. 00:23:27.680 --> 00:23:30.380 But at least maybe they think it has a little bit more substance. 00:23:31.040 --> 00:23:33.220 And then also there's a longevity for it. 00:23:33.220 --> 00:23:39.600 With books that I find, especially even as a pastor, you can preach a sermon and the next week it's gone and they're on to something else. 00:23:39.820 --> 00:23:43.900 And so there's something about a book where people spend more time with it, which is powerful. 00:23:44.060 --> 00:23:48.120 That sometimes even people will give more authority to a book, even if they shouldn't. 00:23:48.620 --> 00:23:53.040 But because it's in written form or someone published it, they'll give it more weight. 00:23:53.260 --> 00:23:55.760 I used to be a newspaper columnist and that was the same thing. 00:23:55.880 --> 00:23:58.620 If I wrote something as a blog post, people would be like, oh, that's nice. 00:23:58.940 --> 00:24:03.060 If it was in the newspaper, the same post, they'd be, oh, this is more important. 00:24:03.260 --> 00:24:05.460 I'd have people in the city like the mayor read it. 00:24:06.060 --> 00:24:08.300 So that's the fascinating thing of how we communicate. 00:24:08.520 --> 00:24:10.380 So they allowed me to publish a book. 00:24:10.480 --> 00:24:12.560 And also they pay you something for books. 00:24:12.640 --> 00:24:13.580 They don't pay you for tweets. 00:24:14.280 --> 00:24:16.860 So, you know, I sent that out. 00:24:17.000 --> 00:24:18.320 So to me, it's important. 00:24:18.440 --> 00:24:19.680 This is an important discussion. 00:24:19.960 --> 00:24:23.440 The internet is radically changing how we exist with each other. 00:24:23.440 --> 00:24:25.940 And it's creating a more divisive, divided community. 00:24:26.320 --> 00:24:31.940 And if we don't take this seriously and start facilitating discussions, I think this is even what your podcast is trying to do. 00:24:32.320 --> 00:24:40.900 If we don't intentionally facilitate discussions about how we're communicating, how Christians are to be radically different online than the rest of the people on the face of the earth, 00:24:41.380 --> 00:24:47.280 then we have a problem because it is just impacting the general culture of how humans treat one another. 00:24:49.120 --> 00:24:54.600 One of the things that you have about your book that I really like is that at the end of each chapter, you have these reflection, 00:24:55.060 --> 00:24:57.720 these things that help you reflect on what you've read. 00:24:57.760 --> 00:24:59.220 But you've also have these. 00:25:01.220 --> 00:25:02.980 The posting piece challenges. 00:25:03.460 --> 00:25:05.440 Again, piece, posting piece challenges. 00:25:06.520 --> 00:25:10.280 And because then you have the reflection that turns you inward. 00:25:10.420 --> 00:25:13.040 And then you have the challenges which turn you outward. 00:25:13.640 --> 00:25:19.780 And it's not just, it's real easy to blow through a book and be like, that was a good read. 00:25:19.880 --> 00:25:24.340 And then a week later, you're like, I read something somewhere. 00:25:24.480 --> 00:25:26.000 Some guy said about something. 00:25:26.520 --> 00:25:34.440 But having that time to turn in and think, what does this mean about what I'm going through and what I'm experiencing? 00:25:34.440 --> 00:25:41.140 And then having you turn and immediately apply what you're learning, what you're working through. 00:25:41.220 --> 00:25:42.320 I really like that. 00:25:42.800 --> 00:25:43.940 Well, I appreciate you saying that. 00:25:44.000 --> 00:25:46.300 What I've found is people don't want to do those. 00:25:46.760 --> 00:25:48.200 I personally believe this. 00:25:48.260 --> 00:25:49.220 I could be wrong in this. 00:25:50.100 --> 00:25:53.780 But people like to read books that confirm what they already know. 00:25:54.680 --> 00:25:57.760 So the best book, the books that do really well. 00:25:57.900 --> 00:25:59.600 And I'm not even saying these are bad books. 00:25:59.740 --> 00:26:03.140 But a book that's what's wrong with evangelicalism today. 00:26:03.260 --> 00:26:04.360 And there's a lot wrong with it. 00:26:04.580 --> 00:26:08.160 So that people who are upset with evangelicalism, they're like, yeah. 00:26:08.280 --> 00:26:11.520 And then they read the book and it confirms what they believe and even more so. 00:26:11.640 --> 00:26:15.220 And it's like, yes, you should read this book because it talks about all the things we're upset with. 00:26:15.580 --> 00:26:19.680 And I found those things tend to work more where it doesn't require anything of you. 00:26:20.020 --> 00:26:23.020 It's more talking about what others are doing. 00:26:23.120 --> 00:26:24.820 And there's a purpose for those kinds of books. 00:26:24.920 --> 00:26:32.500 But I found if you say, okay, but what are you going to do versus just agree, then it becomes more difficult. 00:26:32.620 --> 00:26:35.340 Because for that book, I don't want to be an intermediary. 00:26:35.340 --> 00:26:41.380 So for Posting Peace, I don't want to say, you got to do these five things and these 10 things and do exactly what I do. 00:26:41.460 --> 00:26:43.460 Because I don't know where you live. 00:26:43.640 --> 00:26:47.540 And I don't want to be an intermediary, an intermediary that stands between you and God. 00:26:47.880 --> 00:26:49.880 I believe that God speaks to us directly. 00:26:50.400 --> 00:26:59.800 So in each chapter, I challenge people, okay, I've given you some principles, some ways that social media is impacting us, what the scholars are saying, what I'm saying. 00:27:00.240 --> 00:27:01.700 But what is God saying to you? 00:27:02.080 --> 00:27:04.860 And you have a unique calling and a unique ministry. 00:27:05.140 --> 00:27:07.760 And how are you going to respond to this message? 00:27:07.860 --> 00:27:13.100 Even as a pastor, I'm always reluctant to say, here's the things you need to do in response to what I've preached. 00:27:13.300 --> 00:27:15.280 Because I don't know what you need to do. 00:27:16.080 --> 00:27:20.620 But this part, I think people are less willing to embrace. 00:27:20.720 --> 00:27:22.140 Because now it's accountability. 00:27:22.560 --> 00:27:24.480 Now it's not about what Doug thinks. 00:27:24.640 --> 00:27:26.040 Now it's not about what others think. 00:27:26.220 --> 00:27:31.320 It's now me taking the knowledge around me and presenting myself in a certain way before the world. 00:27:31.520 --> 00:27:32.560 And that's threatening. 00:27:32.560 --> 00:27:36.420 Because now people can look at you and they can assess what you're doing and how you're doing things. 00:27:36.520 --> 00:27:44.340 And so I put it in there to encourage people that even if you agree with me or disagree with me, don't we need to assess what we're doing? 00:27:44.860 --> 00:27:46.820 And to look at, because we can all get lost. 00:27:46.940 --> 00:27:49.680 We can all get caught where, what am I arguing about? 00:27:50.160 --> 00:27:52.680 At the end of the night, what was that about? 00:27:52.780 --> 00:27:55.360 Should I have wasted my day in that interaction? 00:27:55.360 --> 00:27:59.960 So that's the goal of those posting piece challenges, is to give people options. 00:28:00.060 --> 00:28:05.140 I give them a couple options to be able to apply what they've learned within their context. 00:28:05.240 --> 00:28:07.680 And their context and expression might be different than mine. 00:28:07.760 --> 00:28:09.380 But I would say, are you doing something? 00:28:09.440 --> 00:28:13.700 Because if you're not, you're just going to get pulled into the direction of our culture. 00:28:18.360 --> 00:28:21.420 Well, then it doesn't, I like, I write curriculum. 00:28:21.840 --> 00:28:23.180 And that's like my jam. 00:28:23.600 --> 00:28:25.400 And so no wonder that appeals to me. 00:28:25.460 --> 00:28:26.600 I'm like that right there. 00:28:26.660 --> 00:28:28.120 I would put that in something. 00:28:28.460 --> 00:28:29.020 That's it. 00:28:29.460 --> 00:28:31.360 Well, don't you know that with the curriculum, right? 00:28:31.460 --> 00:28:37.100 There's, unless at some level, the student is applying this to their life. 00:28:37.880 --> 00:28:39.600 I'm dyslexic, for instance. 00:28:39.760 --> 00:28:43.720 And you give me a bunch of laws and rules and regulations and things I got to memorize. 00:28:44.000 --> 00:28:45.560 And it just doesn't even make sense to me. 00:28:45.660 --> 00:28:48.280 At some level, I have to either see it modeled. 00:28:48.580 --> 00:28:51.800 And then I have to find a way to model it myself in my own way. 00:28:51.800 --> 00:28:53.560 And give an opportunity to do that. 00:28:53.640 --> 00:28:55.020 Then the ideas stick with me. 00:28:55.140 --> 00:28:55.900 They become real. 00:28:56.660 --> 00:28:59.580 And I think that's a danger with preaching or teaching. 00:28:59.780 --> 00:29:01.040 And it's even the internet, right? 00:29:01.100 --> 00:29:05.040 We post these strong things like they should do this and they should do that. 00:29:05.280 --> 00:29:06.640 Thinking we're going to change things. 00:29:07.140 --> 00:29:10.360 And sometimes you can change the world just by asking questions. 00:29:10.360 --> 00:29:12.180 Where people are applying it to themselves. 00:29:12.760 --> 00:29:14.100 What are you doing with your anxiety? 00:29:14.360 --> 00:29:18.620 How are you dealing with the fact that things seem to be very polarized? 00:29:19.280 --> 00:29:23.380 Then people begin to, in their own self, apply the principles they've learned. 00:29:23.380 --> 00:29:28.960 And then also, they're willing to listen to your advice, too, because you've actually brought them into the conversation. 00:29:28.960 --> 00:29:36.360 Which I think is a part of good curriculum where you figure out where the people are and where you are and find a way to connect between those things. 00:29:36.400 --> 00:29:39.560 And hopefully, if you have more knowledge, you're bringing them in your direction. 00:29:42.160 --> 00:29:45.760 One of the things that you, in chapter 6, you share your testimony. 00:29:46.000 --> 00:29:50.500 You talk about how God gave you this overwhelming sense of peace. 00:29:50.800 --> 00:29:53.540 And that shaped you into being a peacemaker. 00:29:54.380 --> 00:30:00.340 And one of the things you wrote is Christians are not called just to be right, but to be reconciling. 00:30:00.700 --> 00:30:08.480 So, I want to talk a bit about the tension that exists between our desire to be right versus God's call that we would be ministers of reconciliation. 00:30:08.820 --> 00:30:17.580 Yeah, I think this is one of the biggest issues that we haven't determined the difference between being right and being reconciling. 00:30:17.820 --> 00:30:23.580 And I would think it's expressed in politics in one of the simplest ways to understand that. 00:30:23.880 --> 00:30:26.080 I talk about partisan versus political. 00:30:26.260 --> 00:30:28.220 Some people will say, well, Christians shouldn't be political. 00:30:28.820 --> 00:30:33.320 And I would say, I think I know what they mean by this, but Christians should be political. 00:30:33.320 --> 00:30:39.940 In the sense of, we are in a nation where we vote for our leaders, you should be informed, you should have an informed opinion. 00:30:40.160 --> 00:30:41.640 You don't just say, that name's pretty. 00:30:41.900 --> 00:30:46.580 You actually should have, at some level, a political understanding of the world around you. 00:30:46.940 --> 00:30:54.380 But what people are saying is not that we shouldn't be political, but we shouldn't be this partisan dynamic that isn't about reconciliation. 00:30:54.760 --> 00:30:55.880 It's just about winning. 00:30:56.160 --> 00:31:02.780 And so in a partisan dynamic, I communicate my side because I want my side to win, your side to lose. 00:31:02.900 --> 00:31:04.840 I want 50.1% of the vote. 00:31:05.160 --> 00:31:06.020 You go away. 00:31:06.160 --> 00:31:06.860 We have power. 00:31:06.980 --> 00:31:07.780 You have no power. 00:31:08.280 --> 00:31:11.720 So partisan politics is communicated with, we're on the right side. 00:31:11.800 --> 00:31:12.660 You're on the wrong side. 00:31:12.760 --> 00:31:13.440 It's the debate. 00:31:13.540 --> 00:31:14.100 You're a dummy. 00:31:14.280 --> 00:31:14.860 We're smart. 00:31:15.480 --> 00:31:17.800 That's not what reconciliation is. 00:31:18.180 --> 00:31:22.760 I communicate anything, even my politics, because I love the person. 00:31:23.640 --> 00:31:27.600 My goal is, I feel like I have some knowledge or truth that you don't have. 00:31:27.680 --> 00:31:31.280 I feel like maybe you've bought into a lie or you're just confused or whatever. 00:31:31.700 --> 00:31:35.380 My goal is to communicate to you as if you are me, lost. 00:31:35.860 --> 00:31:36.620 I love you. 00:31:36.700 --> 00:31:37.920 I want to bring you into the light. 00:31:38.000 --> 00:31:39.160 I want to bring you into the life. 00:31:39.280 --> 00:31:42.660 I want to bring you into a reconciling relationship where you know the love of God. 00:31:42.660 --> 00:31:46.520 And you know that I love you as I communicate my politics. 00:31:47.060 --> 00:31:51.100 As I'm saying this and people are listening, they realize that's not what's happening. 00:31:51.800 --> 00:31:54.720 And so Christians sound just like non-Christians. 00:31:54.820 --> 00:31:56.500 There's no different in their spirit. 00:31:56.900 --> 00:31:58.100 They're just as ridiculing. 00:31:58.180 --> 00:31:59.140 They're just as angry. 00:31:59.300 --> 00:32:01.700 They're just as vindictive. 00:32:02.440 --> 00:32:05.440 They're just proving their points and trying to win the argument. 00:32:05.580 --> 00:32:07.820 And they could care less about that person's soul. 00:32:07.920 --> 00:32:11.560 At least that's what it looks like in the way they're interacting. 00:32:11.560 --> 00:32:14.060 So we have to find the difference between that, right? 00:32:14.520 --> 00:32:17.780 My goal of communicating is I love you. 00:32:18.340 --> 00:32:24.120 And if I don't love you, then I have to find a way to have God's heart as I communicate this truth. 00:32:24.120 --> 00:32:31.980 Even if it's tough truth, even if it causes conflict, the goal of the conflict is because I want to help you, not that I want to win the argument. 00:32:32.980 --> 00:32:52.880 I was thinking this morning about reconciliation and the way Jesus modeled that, you know, he came and he healed people and he welcomed them into just deep, real relationship. 00:32:52.880 --> 00:32:59.380 I was thinking about when he, this father comes and he's like, my daughter needs you. 00:32:59.560 --> 00:33:08.000 And he's on his way because this father has come and sought out just the best help. 00:33:08.140 --> 00:33:09.200 And they're on the way. 00:33:09.340 --> 00:33:10.640 And here comes this woman. 00:33:10.640 --> 00:33:12.320 And she's had the issue of bleeding. 00:33:12.660 --> 00:33:14.460 And so she has been cast out. 00:33:14.580 --> 00:33:18.120 She has been outside of community for all these years. 00:33:18.620 --> 00:33:20.420 And she is just a woman. 00:33:22.160 --> 00:33:27.260 She's probably had real loss of relationship. 00:33:27.260 --> 00:33:32.720 And so probably a lot of what drove her is not just this physical ailment, but the loneliness. 00:33:33.440 --> 00:33:38.200 And she doesn't force her herself. 00:33:38.560 --> 00:33:40.680 She just touches the hem of his garment. 00:33:41.040 --> 00:33:43.320 She doesn't force him to talk to her. 00:33:43.460 --> 00:33:46.980 She doesn't ask, you know, is it right that I've been set aside? 00:33:47.100 --> 00:33:54.800 She just reaches out to him and he turns and he looks for her and he calls her daughter. 00:33:55.340 --> 00:34:03.620 This person who is, he is on the way to another daughter, someone who has a father to speak for her on her behalf. 00:34:04.060 --> 00:34:05.740 And this woman doesn't have that. 00:34:07.160 --> 00:34:13.960 And so it's not just he meets her physical need, but it's this deep, he says, daughter, your faith has made you well. 00:34:14.340 --> 00:34:16.000 Like this deep welcoming. 00:34:16.620 --> 00:34:28.640 And so, I mean, I think about when we interact with people online or when we interact with people in person, are we interacting with them like, I've got a mission. 00:34:28.760 --> 00:34:31.160 I've got to go help take care of what was asked of me. 00:34:32.480 --> 00:34:40.880 And if somebody comes up and interrupts us, which is a lot of the kind of the vibe of social media, it's like interruption, interruption, interruption. 00:34:41.000 --> 00:34:42.980 It's coming from left and right and all around you. 00:34:43.020 --> 00:34:44.160 You wouldn't know where it came from. 00:34:44.160 --> 00:34:45.780 Jesus turns around and says, where'd that go? 00:34:46.060 --> 00:34:47.400 And everybody's like, everybody's everywhere. 00:34:47.620 --> 00:34:48.360 I don't know what you're talking about. 00:34:49.000 --> 00:35:00.720 But when we have people coming at us from all sides, it's really easy to be like, to shoot them down and not to spend the time truly welcoming them the way that Jesus truly welcomed this interruption. 00:35:01.200 --> 00:35:04.600 Well, and he humanizes the situation. 00:35:04.940 --> 00:35:09.160 Even that story there is, there's a crowd and Jesus says, who touched me? 00:35:09.300 --> 00:35:12.200 And the disciples are like, what do you mean who touched you? 00:35:12.400 --> 00:35:13.940 You're just surrounded by people. 00:35:14.400 --> 00:35:17.700 But that's not how Jesus sees ministry, a mob that needs something. 00:35:17.860 --> 00:35:21.520 He immediately humanizes and brings a woman out of the crowd. 00:35:21.980 --> 00:35:26.900 And then, you know, she touches the hem of his garment, which is where the prayer tassels are. 00:35:27.300 --> 00:35:30.220 And probably she thought, you know, this is how he prays. 00:35:30.300 --> 00:35:32.960 Maybe there's an anointing by just touching those prayer tassels. 00:35:33.520 --> 00:35:36.420 Now, just a way like, I don't deserve his personhood. 00:35:36.500 --> 00:35:37.580 I don't deserve words. 00:35:37.580 --> 00:35:40.220 But maybe I'll be just healed by that. 00:35:40.900 --> 00:35:42.940 And God humanizes it again, right? 00:35:42.960 --> 00:35:46.700 And says, no, like you said so well there, you're my daughter. 00:35:47.240 --> 00:35:53.920 I want to, in front of everyone, to bless you and to embrace you and to humanize you and to meet your need. 00:35:54.400 --> 00:35:56.940 And the internet is a dehumanizing platform. 00:35:56.940 --> 00:36:00.780 And it's a disembodied and disincarnate platform. 00:36:01.720 --> 00:36:04.700 The incarnation is Christ comes in the flesh, right? 00:36:05.100 --> 00:36:07.720 It's not that God said, hey, everybody, I got a New Testament. 00:36:07.920 --> 00:36:10.140 And he threw it down from heaven, just like, here you go. 00:36:10.640 --> 00:36:17.080 The New Testament came out of embodied ministry, that Christ, God in the flesh, dwelt amongst us. 00:36:17.740 --> 00:36:19.860 And so the internet, we are disembodied. 00:36:19.920 --> 00:36:20.780 We don't see each other. 00:36:20.860 --> 00:36:21.780 We're not in the room. 00:36:22.360 --> 00:36:30.160 And it has a tendency to dehumanize us from these personal interactions where we try to find out who this person is, what their heart is. 00:36:30.500 --> 00:36:31.600 How can I connect with them? 00:36:31.640 --> 00:36:33.820 What is God saying to them and working through them? 00:36:34.120 --> 00:36:37.700 That takes more energy in this platform. 00:36:37.700 --> 00:36:40.780 It just does, because we're not in the room. 00:36:40.920 --> 00:36:42.320 People become ideologies. 00:36:42.520 --> 00:36:43.500 They become characters. 00:36:43.840 --> 00:36:50.400 We just see them as points of an argument, not as a human being made in the image of God. 00:36:50.520 --> 00:36:52.800 So I think what you said there is so important. 00:36:52.980 --> 00:36:56.000 And that's the struggle for me is because also, it's fascinating. 00:36:56.120 --> 00:37:02.180 Christ went away and he said, before you go out and minister, I want you to wait to be clothed with power from on high. 00:37:02.340 --> 00:37:05.660 And sometimes people are like, well, that means superpower to do stuff. 00:37:06.140 --> 00:37:15.520 But ultimately, he says, wait so that you actually are empowered with the Holy Spirit in my presence so that you will witness me. 00:37:15.580 --> 00:37:17.780 He says, you will be witnesses to all the earth, right? 00:37:17.940 --> 00:37:20.260 Well, witnesses is not like I'm going to tell people about Jesus. 00:37:20.620 --> 00:37:23.700 It's that I'm going to see Jesus and be with Jesus. 00:37:23.940 --> 00:37:26.440 And others will see Jesus as they're with me. 00:37:26.840 --> 00:37:30.420 So even the idea of ministry is don't go out and just say a bunch of truths. 00:37:30.960 --> 00:37:36.040 Go out and allow people to see me and define me through you and through the Spirit. 00:37:36.500 --> 00:37:41.880 That is a very embodied, incarnate, in-person, humanizing experience. 00:37:42.340 --> 00:37:49.980 So that takes intentionality that I have to find ways when I communicate to communicate to a human and not to just an idea. 00:37:50.800 --> 00:37:57.980 I hadn't thought about the prayer tassels. 00:37:58.120 --> 00:38:15.360 And that also speaks to me in this conversation because one of the most effective things that I have tried and that I have other people who have come alongside and they are doing this with me is just once a week we ask people, how can we pray for you? 00:38:15.580 --> 00:38:17.320 Can I pray with you? 00:38:17.960 --> 00:38:28.440 And we have found that people will come and respond to us and say, I don't know that I even believe in God anymore, but will you pray for this? 00:38:28.560 --> 00:38:37.900 Or people of different faiths have come and said, or no faith will come and say, pray for me. 00:38:37.900 --> 00:38:44.740 And people that we've lost touch with, or people are just willing to be prayed for. 00:38:49.220 --> 00:38:50.880 Isn't prayer humanizing though? 00:38:50.980 --> 00:38:54.420 Isn't it like, because when you ask someone, can I pray for you? 00:38:55.260 --> 00:38:58.260 There's no, you're not saying you need to do this or that or this. 00:38:58.420 --> 00:39:00.380 It's where, tell me where you're at. 00:39:00.740 --> 00:39:01.040 Yeah. 00:39:01.180 --> 00:39:06.960 Tell me, and so it, by its very nature, it's humanizing the core of who you are and what you're concerned with. 00:39:06.960 --> 00:39:12.840 I care about, and I want to be able to help you and want God to be able to help you. 00:39:13.420 --> 00:39:17.300 So wouldn't that be the most reconciling thing you could do? 00:39:17.540 --> 00:39:21.000 And even if people say no, and they generally are not offended. 00:39:21.140 --> 00:39:22.960 If they are offended, then that's probably the issue. 00:39:23.040 --> 00:39:24.760 And that's not a bad thing for them to be offended. 00:39:25.700 --> 00:39:28.840 But that's human, because they're assuming you have an expectation. 00:39:29.000 --> 00:39:30.240 If you say, can I talk to you? 00:39:30.280 --> 00:39:31.500 It's like, well, what are you going to talk about? 00:39:32.240 --> 00:39:34.240 But can I ask you a few questions? 00:39:35.000 --> 00:39:37.200 What are you going to, you know, all those things are threatening. 00:39:37.660 --> 00:39:40.540 But that's probably the most reconciling thing you could do with someone, right? 00:39:41.000 --> 00:39:43.420 Is there something in your life I could pray for? 00:39:44.120 --> 00:39:46.100 That, what says acceptance? 00:39:46.680 --> 00:39:47.740 What says service? 00:39:48.140 --> 00:39:51.460 And also what says this is more about God than about me and my agenda. 00:39:51.860 --> 00:39:53.360 So that is powerful, isn't it? 00:39:53.360 --> 00:39:58.180 It is the nature of reconciliation to say, God meets you at the heart of your need. 00:39:58.640 --> 00:40:02.420 And if you turn to him, he will be what you need for that situation. 00:40:03.220 --> 00:40:03.340 Yeah. 00:40:03.600 --> 00:40:08.360 And it puts it on God to follow through, to solve these things. 00:40:08.420 --> 00:40:11.740 I'm not promising a solution that I'll fail to live up to. 00:40:12.400 --> 00:40:15.560 You know, I'm talking to the God who can. 00:40:18.100 --> 00:40:19.480 Sorry, you know, this is just good stuff. 00:40:19.640 --> 00:40:21.440 I interrupted you in the last time. 00:40:21.440 --> 00:40:27.680 I just feel like this is, I believe that God is always moving and working and active. 00:40:27.940 --> 00:40:32.780 And sometimes I think as Christians, we think our job is to start and finish the process. 00:40:32.780 --> 00:40:37.760 So we are arguing whatever our point is and trying to get across how you should view God. 00:40:38.340 --> 00:40:50.660 But I think we're probably more effective or impactful when we are just a way of love and truth that gives others permission to see, yes, God is working in my life. 00:40:50.720 --> 00:40:51.940 There's people looking from the corners. 00:40:52.060 --> 00:40:57.420 There's people where God is moving on their heart, where they are questioning things, where they know their life is like, I don't know if this is the right thing. 00:40:57.500 --> 00:41:02.060 They know maybe even the darkness in their life, but they don't know that they're loved. 00:41:02.860 --> 00:41:12.320 And so that idea to be able to be a safe place where you just love someone and you welcome them and you trust that God's moving in their life, you can have far more impact in a life like that. 00:41:12.840 --> 00:41:15.880 Then let's first see what's our view on the Trinity or something. 00:41:16.000 --> 00:41:21.540 Like when you start with that place, immediately there's a defensiveness of I have to defend where I'm at. 00:41:21.880 --> 00:41:26.300 If you start with the human and loving them, then they can be in process. 00:41:26.460 --> 00:41:27.540 They can be incomplete. 00:41:27.760 --> 00:41:28.640 They can be confused. 00:41:28.780 --> 00:41:31.080 And frankly, if you're honest, you're confused as well. 00:41:31.140 --> 00:41:34.120 And so you can express that part of yourself that I don't have it all together. 00:41:34.120 --> 00:41:38.860 And if you have it all together and you need to get on your knees because you're delusional, you don't. 00:41:39.560 --> 00:41:40.340 And that's your problem. 00:41:41.240 --> 00:41:55.400 So anyway, this stuff to me really encourages me because I believe God is working, God is moving, and Christians can facilitate environments where we can be a part of that, where we can say, hey, I'm here with you as you're hearing God's voice and discovering God's leading. 00:41:55.500 --> 00:42:01.880 And I'm here to serve that process, not to overtake it or to become the process. 00:42:03.260 --> 00:42:12.640 So, another thing that you have in the book, you talked about damming up streams, like putting rocks down. 00:42:13.080 --> 00:42:14.140 And I mean, I did that. 00:42:14.240 --> 00:42:21.680 I don't know if, Hector, if you went down to streams when you were growing up and put the rocks and you stop it and you redirect the flow. 00:42:23.080 --> 00:42:23.540 Oh, yeah. 00:42:24.360 --> 00:42:29.460 But that's, I'm glad to hear it's relatable across the ages. 00:42:29.880 --> 00:42:31.160 Because we could do it as kids. 00:42:31.260 --> 00:42:32.640 We're like, we can stop this stream. 00:42:32.780 --> 00:42:35.240 If we always put a bunch of rocks, we'll stop the flow of the water. 00:42:35.300 --> 00:42:35.980 It'll be amazing. 00:42:36.200 --> 00:42:36.360 Yeah. 00:42:37.060 --> 00:42:51.280 So, but you said any call to change internet culture or to substantially transform the way we communicate online can look as foolish as a handful of children trying to hold back or reroute the Mississippi River. 00:42:51.520 --> 00:43:01.520 Our best intentions seem like child's play in the face of these expansive, angry, divisive, raging social media waters. 00:43:02.200 --> 00:43:05.920 And, you know, I get that. 00:43:07.980 --> 00:43:21.700 Like, I hear from plenty of solid Christians, they say, you know, social media is just a trash heap dumpster fire and I am out. 00:43:21.840 --> 00:43:22.940 I'm not going to be in that. 00:43:23.340 --> 00:43:26.220 There's nothing, there's nothing that can be done to change it. 00:43:26.420 --> 00:43:34.940 Or, so they either cut themselves out of it, or they say, in this place, I just can't do anything about it. 00:43:34.940 --> 00:43:36.240 So what's the point in trying? 00:43:37.140 --> 00:43:42.040 So, it would seem you think it's possible. 00:43:42.180 --> 00:43:43.280 Why do you think it's possible? 00:43:44.180 --> 00:43:48.920 Well, one, we preach a message of resurrection in a land of death. 00:43:49.300 --> 00:43:50.920 And so we live by faith. 00:43:51.620 --> 00:43:54.260 Fundamentally, we live by something we haven't even seen. 00:43:55.860 --> 00:43:58.900 And we just, we've grown in that reality. 00:43:59.200 --> 00:44:03.860 So, I mean, I've gone to enough funerals to know even the concept of life after death. 00:44:03.900 --> 00:44:04.980 And these are big issues. 00:44:04.980 --> 00:44:07.260 Like, we just believe that there is life. 00:44:07.360 --> 00:44:11.740 We believe that we're created in the image of God and that we have an eternal existence. 00:44:11.740 --> 00:44:15.020 So, the best things in life are also believed by faith. 00:44:15.440 --> 00:44:16.840 I think the world is terrible. 00:44:16.940 --> 00:44:19.160 And I talk about all the terrible things that are happening. 00:44:19.340 --> 00:44:22.480 But the same thing with the internet is the same thing we could do with this world, right? 00:44:23.020 --> 00:44:24.460 And I see Christians doing that. 00:44:25.000 --> 00:44:29.160 Christians isolated in their Christian community with their Christian music and their Christian stations 00:44:29.160 --> 00:44:33.120 and their Christian content with their Christian friends talking about their Christian ideas 00:44:33.120 --> 00:44:34.880 and waiting for Christ to return. 00:44:35.420 --> 00:44:37.080 I think that is a waste of the kingdom. 00:44:38.360 --> 00:44:40.360 Jesus tells us to go after the lost sheep. 00:44:41.360 --> 00:44:44.340 And so, we have permission to go after the lost. 00:44:44.460 --> 00:44:47.600 And I like that he says, one lost, leave the 99 for the one that's lost. 00:44:47.740 --> 00:44:49.040 I don't know if we'll succeed. 00:44:49.360 --> 00:44:50.880 I think I'll stand before the Lord. 00:44:51.100 --> 00:44:53.900 And I don't know if I will have done well in the world's eyes. 00:44:53.960 --> 00:44:55.360 But I'll say, I didn't bow down. 00:44:56.640 --> 00:44:57.600 You know, I didn't bow down. 00:44:57.740 --> 00:45:01.560 I didn't work for what rusts and corrodes and fades away. 00:45:03.020 --> 00:45:04.320 And I have to live that way. 00:45:04.380 --> 00:45:06.300 Most of the things I've done in my life are not successful. 00:45:06.460 --> 00:45:09.540 I have a little church that's, you know, 60 people, 70 people. 00:45:09.840 --> 00:45:10.540 And I get it. 00:45:10.600 --> 00:45:12.180 Yeah, that's every church has value. 00:45:12.320 --> 00:45:14.600 But in the eyes of others, it's not successful. 00:45:14.820 --> 00:45:16.460 And I don't know how my books are going to do. 00:45:16.540 --> 00:45:18.120 But I don't think I'm going to be a best-selling anything. 00:45:18.820 --> 00:45:21.120 But I have to do what the Spirit of the Lord has put in my heart. 00:45:21.120 --> 00:45:27.600 Because we have a God that's full of so much love that he's willing to leave the 99 to rescue the one. 00:45:29.040 --> 00:45:30.780 And I think that's God's heart in us. 00:45:30.860 --> 00:45:36.220 And if we open ourselves up to that, he'll show us how to minister in a world that we feel like sometimes is falling apart. 00:45:36.360 --> 00:45:37.140 And we all do that. 00:45:37.240 --> 00:45:39.280 We all look at things and go, this is hopeless. 00:45:39.620 --> 00:45:41.340 And how do I even begin? 00:45:41.640 --> 00:45:45.160 And God humanizes the situation where we find one. 00:45:45.220 --> 00:45:46.740 And isn't that the power of social media? 00:45:46.820 --> 00:45:47.680 I can find one. 00:45:47.780 --> 00:45:49.200 I told my wife this last night. 00:45:49.620 --> 00:45:52.680 There's a lot of abused people who follow me on Twitter. 00:45:54.300 --> 00:46:01.660 And they follow me because I did things like validate them and say, I'm sorry you were abused and sinned against. 00:46:01.760 --> 00:46:03.020 And I believe your story. 00:46:03.080 --> 00:46:08.200 And I said to my wife last night, I shouldn't have so much influence in these people's lives. 00:46:08.420 --> 00:46:11.460 But it's because very few people are willing to listen to them. 00:46:12.280 --> 00:46:18.240 I said, there should be thousands of pastors and thousands of leaders who are comforting and encouraging. 00:46:18.240 --> 00:46:19.660 And advocating for them. 00:46:19.660 --> 00:46:21.080 Because I'm not this huge advocate. 00:46:21.200 --> 00:46:23.040 I'm not doing this big crusade about abuse. 00:46:23.360 --> 00:46:25.800 I just occasionally write something nice. 00:46:26.580 --> 00:46:29.940 I'll write a direct message that says, I see you're having a hard day. 00:46:30.060 --> 00:46:31.280 I'm praying for you. 00:46:31.980 --> 00:46:34.640 I'm sorry you're being re-traumatized by these people. 00:46:35.200 --> 00:46:36.900 But that has to be enough. 00:46:37.740 --> 00:46:38.640 That has to be enough. 00:46:38.740 --> 00:46:40.740 I don't know if it's five people. 00:46:40.740 --> 00:46:43.740 If I can influence the life of one person. 00:46:43.820 --> 00:46:46.640 And by the way, you can influence generations through one person. 00:46:47.340 --> 00:46:48.760 Then that's enough. 00:46:48.860 --> 00:46:51.360 And people who say, well, I'm just going to give up on social media. 00:46:51.660 --> 00:46:53.500 Well, you're giving up on a lot of people. 00:46:54.440 --> 00:46:57.620 Now, if for your own mental health you can't do that, I get that. 00:46:57.700 --> 00:47:03.720 If for your mental health it's just harming you and you need to step back from social media, you do that. 00:47:03.940 --> 00:47:04.900 God understands. 00:47:05.700 --> 00:47:10.980 But if it's an issue of privilege, like, well, I'm doing fine, so I don't need to deal with these people who are not doing fine. 00:47:11.380 --> 00:47:14.900 Then I'd have you question why God made your life fine. 00:47:15.540 --> 00:47:20.920 God did not give me a good marriage and a good family so I could spend all my time just within that luxury. 00:47:21.320 --> 00:47:28.400 There's a part of me that needs to pour myself out into chaotic marriages, into chaotic families, into broken communities. 00:47:28.500 --> 00:47:30.200 So that's my heart in this book. 00:47:30.200 --> 00:47:36.900 For at one level the people to see how bad it is, but also to have hope that Christ in me is the hope of glory. 00:47:37.000 --> 00:47:38.520 Christ in you is the hope of glory. 00:47:39.280 --> 00:47:43.700 And we can get discouraged, but you are having influence, and you're having influence you'll never know. 00:47:43.920 --> 00:47:47.200 Like this podcast, you're going to look at the numbers and how many people listen to it. 00:47:47.240 --> 00:47:48.460 And sometimes it's discouraging. 00:47:48.600 --> 00:47:49.960 You're like, oh, you know, should we do this? 00:47:50.000 --> 00:47:50.680 How many people listen? 00:47:51.000 --> 00:47:52.800 That's not how you assess kingdom work. 00:47:53.040 --> 00:47:55.040 You do it because God called you to do it. 00:47:55.080 --> 00:47:55.580 It's obedience. 00:47:56.100 --> 00:47:58.440 And then you have no idea who it'll influence. 00:47:58.660 --> 00:48:04.020 Someone who never interacts with you, who hears a story from this, never even listens to the podcast. 00:48:04.320 --> 00:48:05.340 It brings them hope. 00:48:05.400 --> 00:48:06.480 It encourages them. 00:48:06.900 --> 00:48:18.260 So that's the way this faith community acts, by faith, led by the Holy Spirit, letting God figure out, you know, the numbers and the assessment of whether this thing is successful in the eyes of the world. 00:48:19.920 --> 00:48:20.320 Yeah. 00:48:20.620 --> 00:48:21.020 Wow. 00:48:21.260 --> 00:48:22.520 Doug, thank you so much for that. 00:48:22.680 --> 00:48:24.900 I just appreciate you. 00:48:25.500 --> 00:48:27.600 Just so glad to be having this conversation. 00:48:30.540 --> 00:48:33.860 Yeah, it made me cry like I'm sniffling, crying. 00:48:34.080 --> 00:48:34.600 Oh, man. 00:48:34.760 --> 00:48:38.940 I'm not upset about that, but I just become a little more nasally and coffee. 00:48:39.380 --> 00:48:45.220 But I appreciate you asking these questions because, you know, it's all about that. 00:48:45.340 --> 00:48:50.480 I mean, I, as a pastor in this, I am struggling like, man, this is hard. 00:48:52.580 --> 00:48:57.400 You're going to get more rejection than acceptance in person and online. 00:48:57.560 --> 00:48:58.140 It's the nature. 00:48:58.400 --> 00:48:59.720 It says it's a narrow way, right? 00:49:00.580 --> 00:49:03.260 But, man, that one person, they should be enough, shouldn't they? 00:49:03.380 --> 00:49:07.720 The one family, the one, you know, on social media, you could be, it's just like abuse. 00:49:08.160 --> 00:49:15.100 You could be posting in a way that gives someone permission who's deciding to leave an abusive church or an abusive marriage. 00:49:15.500 --> 00:49:18.700 And your one tweet could be the last tweet that's like, you know what? 00:49:19.340 --> 00:49:22.800 Yes, I'm not foolish to know that I need to contend for my health. 00:49:22.900 --> 00:49:24.580 I am going to leave this community. 00:49:24.940 --> 00:49:26.620 And you could be that person. 00:49:27.000 --> 00:49:28.060 And I believe that. 00:49:28.100 --> 00:49:32.800 People say, oh, you've never changed any person's mind through a tweet or a post. 00:49:32.900 --> 00:49:34.160 And I'd say, that's not true. 00:49:35.140 --> 00:49:36.060 It's not true. 00:49:36.060 --> 00:49:41.640 You can give someone that final word of encouragement that allows them to say, I'm worth something. 00:49:42.280 --> 00:49:43.520 I'm going to go to college. 00:49:43.700 --> 00:49:44.880 I'm going to change my life. 00:49:44.940 --> 00:49:48.020 Whatever the issue is, it could come through Christ in you. 00:49:49.940 --> 00:50:04.840 Yeah, I, again, just love the practicality that some of what you were sharing was of just showing up, the humanizing, of just showing up and asking questions or noticing, just noticing, right? 00:50:04.960 --> 00:50:20.600 And so I think as we talk about how to give hope, I know that you said that you can't give the five things to do that will make it a successful social ministry. 00:50:20.940 --> 00:50:38.160 But if you had just a few words of advice, someone who was looking at potentially starting to use their social media places as a ministry space, how would you advise them about the day-to-day of how that works? 00:50:38.160 --> 00:50:38.640 Sure. 00:50:38.640 --> 00:50:38.680 Sure. 00:50:38.880 --> 00:50:43.580 And within the book, I do have lots of practical ways you can assess ministry. 00:50:43.840 --> 00:50:50.540 And for instance, there's one posting piece challenge that I would encourage anyone to do is go over the last two weeks of your communication. 00:50:50.700 --> 00:50:56.100 You can go longer or shorter, but get a few of that, whatever platforms you're on, and just look at what you're posting. 00:50:56.860 --> 00:50:58.860 And C, does that represent who I am? 00:51:00.060 --> 00:51:04.320 Or is it an exaggeration of one part of my life, but another part of my life is missing? 00:51:05.200 --> 00:51:05.900 That's important. 00:51:05.960 --> 00:51:07.300 I think we all know people like that. 00:51:07.360 --> 00:51:12.900 We even know pastors and leaders who are online, they're kind of jerks, or they're just all political. 00:51:12.900 --> 00:51:22.120 And you know I'm in person, and you know they're more than that, that there's some really good things, but their genuine personality is not coming online anymore. 00:51:23.080 --> 00:51:32.600 If you died, right, and someone read, I know pastors, if you died today, but like if you died today and someone read your last 20 tweets, would you be embarrassed? 00:51:33.580 --> 00:51:34.500 I mean, I get it. 00:51:34.540 --> 00:51:38.740 You know, it's not all spiritual stuff, but I think this will help you. 00:51:38.800 --> 00:51:39.800 So that's the kind of stuff. 00:51:39.800 --> 00:51:45.280 One of the things, too, is when you communicate about any person, communicate as if you think they're in the room with you. 00:51:45.580 --> 00:51:46.140 Humanize it. 00:51:46.300 --> 00:51:50.320 So I don't care if someone's a celebrity or another pastor or person. 00:51:50.460 --> 00:51:54.160 I want to communicate, like, would I talk this way if they were in the room? 00:51:55.260 --> 00:51:58.020 Because that changes the dynamic, even the way we confront people. 00:51:58.540 --> 00:52:00.840 You know, you're not going to be a jerk to someone if you know they can punch you. 00:52:00.960 --> 00:52:04.860 You know, there's an aspect of where in the room it influences us. 00:52:04.900 --> 00:52:07.440 So that's another area where I make sure in the room. 00:52:07.440 --> 00:52:15.700 Another principle, and these are just some of the many principles of if you're struggling with big issues online, let's say immigration or race issues. 00:52:15.980 --> 00:52:26.500 Okay, it's all right to post your opinions, but I would encourage you to trend local in the sense that, okay, I'm struggling with racial relations in the world. 00:52:27.180 --> 00:52:33.660 This is what I'll often ask people where they have strong opinions about certain, you know, CRT and race. 00:52:33.860 --> 00:52:36.460 And I'll say, well, what do your black friends think about this? 00:52:37.020 --> 00:52:38.260 I'll just ask them that question. 00:52:38.520 --> 00:52:51.320 And it's kind of a devious question because if they don't have any black friends, then maybe they need to just stop posting and just develop some relationships and get a better perspective. 00:52:51.320 --> 00:52:55.780 Not that every black friend would represent all of the needs of a certain community. 00:52:56.440 --> 00:52:57.520 But this is what we find. 00:52:57.620 --> 00:53:00.040 We have people have strong opinions or immigration. 00:53:01.000 --> 00:53:03.880 Go towards your local group that's dealing with immigration. 00:53:04.240 --> 00:53:07.600 Go towards a group that works with immigration needs in your community. 00:53:08.040 --> 00:53:09.080 Have conversations. 00:53:09.540 --> 00:53:10.020 Volunteer. 00:53:10.160 --> 00:53:12.740 That will make the issue much more three-dimensional. 00:53:13.600 --> 00:53:18.420 It'll also get you some people that you might love and so you might speak differently in these sweeping statements. 00:53:18.420 --> 00:53:23.680 So, to me, it helps me also with the chaos because I don't think we're supposed to be aware of everything all the time. 00:53:23.760 --> 00:53:24.320 We're just not. 00:53:24.840 --> 00:53:26.280 We just can't take that. 00:53:27.020 --> 00:53:29.160 And so, there's garbage going on all around us. 00:53:29.280 --> 00:53:34.540 But probably what we have the most influence with is the stuff that's happening in our neighborhood and in our cities. 00:53:35.200 --> 00:53:43.520 So, the injustices that aren't trending, the people who are hurting that you can actually bring a meal to or you can actually just talk with and connect with. 00:53:43.520 --> 00:53:46.720 So, that helps humanize things as well to trend local. 00:53:47.220 --> 00:53:51.420 And, you know, one of the other ones, too, is I do believe we're supposed to be spirit-led. 00:53:51.500 --> 00:53:58.620 And that means we pull away from the crowd, as Jesus did, spend time with the Father, and then decide what to do based on the Father's leading. 00:53:59.120 --> 00:54:01.920 Jesus started ministry in Capernaum, and he was very successful. 00:54:02.500 --> 00:54:04.200 And he went away to be with the Father. 00:54:04.840 --> 00:54:06.460 And the disciples were like, where are you? 00:54:06.520 --> 00:54:07.980 You know, everybody wants to see you in Capernaum. 00:54:08.080 --> 00:54:09.300 And Jesus says, you know what? 00:54:09.320 --> 00:54:10.380 I need to go other places. 00:54:11.020 --> 00:54:16.800 And this really touches me as a pastor, because if I was having revival in Capernaum, I wouldn't leave Capernaum. 00:54:16.900 --> 00:54:18.140 I'm like, God's with us. 00:54:18.200 --> 00:54:21.000 Let's just do the World Outreach Center in Capernaum. 00:54:21.160 --> 00:54:28.620 But Jesus, even when he's successful, is like, no, I'm not going to go based on whether it's a good interaction or a bad interaction. 00:54:28.780 --> 00:54:33.920 I'm not going to take my next step based on what God has created or what hasn't been created. 00:54:34.120 --> 00:54:35.500 I'm going to be spirit-led. 00:54:35.680 --> 00:54:44.180 And we need to do that as well, because I could also just interact with people who feed me and hide out in these communities that are really fun and people praise me for what I do. 00:54:44.640 --> 00:54:48.760 But if I stop, the Holy Spirit might say, I don't want you just to stay in Capernaum, Doug. 00:54:49.480 --> 00:54:58.200 I want you also to go to these other people and engage in other discussions you don't want to engage in and be with people that are more complicated to be with. 00:54:58.200 --> 00:55:05.580 So the spirit-led reality allows me to leave the room or stay in the room and to be okay if someone else leaves the room led by the Lord. 00:55:05.740 --> 00:55:09.880 And I don't feel condemned that that's what they're supposed to do, but I'm supposed to stay here. 00:55:12.240 --> 00:55:22.580 So the walking out of all of this is messy. 00:55:24.380 --> 00:55:32.700 And so I want to make sure that we touch on what happens when it doesn't work out. 00:55:33.420 --> 00:55:44.120 So do you have an example or a story about a time that you failed at posting peace that maybe despite your best efforts, it just couldn't be salvaged? 00:55:44.380 --> 00:55:46.660 And what you learned from that? 00:55:47.340 --> 00:55:48.300 Well, the word is key. 00:55:48.420 --> 00:55:49.480 Learn, isn't it? 00:55:49.640 --> 00:55:53.060 Are we learning or are we so defensive we can't learn? 00:55:54.500 --> 00:55:57.380 I remember the first time someone accused me of mansplaining. 00:55:58.180 --> 00:56:02.360 For those who don't realize what that is, just ask a man and he'll explain it to you. 00:56:04.080 --> 00:56:05.260 Well, let me tell you, Doug. 00:56:05.960 --> 00:56:06.720 Yeah, that's right. 00:56:06.940 --> 00:56:07.440 Let me tell you. 00:56:08.700 --> 00:56:11.520 No, what you do is you wait for the female in the room to explain it. 00:56:11.540 --> 00:56:12.840 And then you go, what she really means. 00:56:13.220 --> 00:56:14.100 And then you say what? 00:56:14.480 --> 00:56:17.580 So I'm like, I'm a sensitive man. 00:56:17.580 --> 00:56:19.080 I'm not a mansplainer. 00:56:19.200 --> 00:56:20.100 I'm an advocate of women. 00:56:20.200 --> 00:56:25.100 And so the first person who did this, and by the way, whether they were right or wrong, I can't even remember. 00:56:25.520 --> 00:56:29.260 But my first instinct was to defend, right? 00:56:30.240 --> 00:56:34.080 By the way, defending against mansplaining doesn't go well. 00:56:34.360 --> 00:56:35.480 There is a catch-22. 00:56:35.840 --> 00:56:38.060 That even if you aren't mansplaining, you are. 00:56:38.160 --> 00:56:40.280 If someone views you as that, that's how they view you. 00:56:40.300 --> 00:56:42.500 And you can say otherwise, but you've got to be okay with the Lord. 00:56:42.500 --> 00:56:47.380 Well, in that interaction, I immediately got defensive, and the person was really good at arguing. 00:56:47.940 --> 00:56:50.600 And then in the middle, I just realized, you know what? 00:56:50.620 --> 00:56:54.600 I just got to say I'm sorry that whatever happened here, that's how I'm coming across. 00:56:55.140 --> 00:57:00.480 And my goal isn't to win the argument, but for this person to know that I respect them, and I know who I am. 00:57:00.920 --> 00:57:02.560 What can I say genuinely true? 00:57:02.660 --> 00:57:03.700 And I said, I am sorry. 00:57:03.900 --> 00:57:05.720 I'm clearly not doing this right. 00:57:05.800 --> 00:57:06.540 I want to learn. 00:57:06.640 --> 00:57:07.520 I want to grow at this. 00:57:07.860 --> 00:57:09.260 Thank you for expressing that. 00:57:09.720 --> 00:57:11.340 Well, that helped me with the next interaction. 00:57:11.340 --> 00:57:22.280 The next time someone was either bringing up or at some level saying something like that, immediately, instead of being defensive, I went to validate that. 00:57:22.420 --> 00:57:23.680 Say, I'm sorry. 00:57:23.820 --> 00:57:24.900 I don't want to do that. 00:57:25.040 --> 00:57:27.580 So let's find a better way to communicate here. 00:57:27.640 --> 00:57:28.060 Or more. 00:57:28.140 --> 00:57:28.960 I'm just going to do listening. 00:57:29.060 --> 00:57:33.620 Often when someone says mansplaining, it's also just an issue of, I just need you to hear me. 00:57:33.660 --> 00:57:34.620 I don't need you to fix me. 00:57:35.320 --> 00:57:37.180 By the way, my wife could tell you that idea. 00:57:37.260 --> 00:57:38.180 I don't need you to fix me. 00:57:38.280 --> 00:57:40.740 I don't need you to do anything, but just listen. 00:57:40.820 --> 00:57:44.140 Can you just listen to me and respect my opinions and respect who I am? 00:57:44.240 --> 00:57:46.460 And so I learned from that. 00:57:46.840 --> 00:57:56.020 I talk about in the book about dealing with trolling behavior that there is, it's totally appropriate that when someone is harming you to block them and mute them. 00:57:56.080 --> 00:57:57.380 And so this is what I do with that. 00:57:57.380 --> 00:58:02.380 If someone comes on really strong, and as a pastor, sometimes people attack me because I'm part of a category. 00:58:02.840 --> 00:58:03.680 So they don't know me. 00:58:04.100 --> 00:58:06.860 And the first thing is some, all you pastors are in it for the money. 00:58:07.060 --> 00:58:09.080 And it's funny because I'm bivocational. 00:58:09.200 --> 00:58:10.860 We've always barely made it financially. 00:58:11.180 --> 00:58:12.540 And I want to argue against that. 00:58:12.660 --> 00:58:14.820 I want to say, you don't understand. 00:58:15.320 --> 00:58:17.400 But they'll be really hostile and negative. 00:58:17.860 --> 00:58:22.700 And what I do when someone's like that, my first statement is to humanize. 00:58:23.260 --> 00:58:25.660 I'll even say things like, are you trying to hurt me? 00:58:25.700 --> 00:58:26.880 Because these things kind of hurt. 00:58:26.960 --> 00:58:27.700 I'm just a person. 00:58:28.260 --> 00:58:29.120 I'm just interacting. 00:58:29.240 --> 00:58:30.400 I'm not trying to fight with you. 00:58:31.120 --> 00:58:36.540 And if you just, whatever you say, something that humanizes, not even about the argument, you'll either find two things. 00:58:36.720 --> 00:58:38.180 Either they'll go, oh, I'm sorry. 00:58:38.440 --> 00:58:39.520 I'm not saying you. 00:58:39.640 --> 00:58:41.840 I'm just saying in general, I've had bad experiences with pastors. 00:58:41.840 --> 00:58:44.420 And suddenly a human rises up from the anger, right? 00:58:44.500 --> 00:58:45.520 And then you can have a dialogue. 00:58:45.960 --> 00:58:46.640 So I'll continue. 00:58:47.180 --> 00:58:57.580 But if that first gracious, kind, loving response is responded with a doubling down, more anger, more attack, then I know this person is just upset and angry. 00:58:57.940 --> 00:59:00.000 I don't want to keep them sinning against me. 00:59:00.220 --> 00:59:04.800 I don't think Christianity is just putting yourself in front of someone so they can slap you continually. 00:59:05.400 --> 00:59:08.160 So I'm going to keep them from sinning against me. 00:59:08.260 --> 00:59:08.940 I love them. 00:59:08.940 --> 00:59:12.040 And so I'm going to not allow this interaction to continue. 00:59:12.440 --> 00:59:15.840 And I'll do something where scripture says, love your enemies, bless them, do good to them. 00:59:16.500 --> 00:59:23.320 So I will do something that loves them and blesses them in my last response, knowing that a person like that will always want the last word. 00:59:23.820 --> 00:59:27.740 And I need to just let that happen because they will want the last word. 00:59:27.820 --> 00:59:29.440 That nature is the last word. 00:59:29.500 --> 00:59:31.280 And I've had people block me for blessing them. 00:59:31.320 --> 00:59:33.180 I'll bless them and say, may God bless them. 00:59:33.180 --> 00:59:37.620 And they get so angry that I won't fight with them, but they block me because of that. 00:59:37.860 --> 00:59:39.580 So to me, that's one of the boundaries. 00:59:39.720 --> 00:59:43.160 You learn, I want to decipher where they're coming from, what's going on. 00:59:43.480 --> 00:59:44.720 And then my heart has to be right. 00:59:44.820 --> 00:59:47.220 Like my goal is not you hurt me, so I'm going to hurt you. 00:59:47.780 --> 00:59:50.540 I feel insecure and I need you to help me with my insecurities. 00:59:50.720 --> 00:59:51.520 I am insecure. 00:59:52.180 --> 00:59:56.720 But it's not a good place to get my insecurities met by someone who's angry at me. 00:59:56.780 --> 01:00:00.380 That's not going to be the way that Doug is going to deal with his insecurities. 01:00:00.880 --> 01:00:03.060 It's through Christ and through loving community. 01:00:03.700 --> 01:00:07.860 This is the time to just, okay, Lord, I entrust this person into your hands. 01:00:07.920 --> 01:00:09.660 So those are some of the ways I've dealt with it. 01:00:09.720 --> 01:00:14.640 For me, my problem is I got lots of opinions and I think I will hurt people where I come 01:00:14.640 --> 01:00:18.960 in with my opinions and I don't know them and they don't know me. 01:00:19.420 --> 01:00:22.040 And then I get upset and take it personal. 01:00:22.700 --> 01:00:24.240 But I have to be careful. 01:00:24.240 --> 01:00:28.160 If someone doesn't know me, why would they take my opinions? 01:00:28.640 --> 01:00:29.880 And why would I take theirs? 01:00:30.060 --> 01:00:36.460 So that's not a mean thing that someone would be, my opinions would be suspect because we 01:00:36.460 --> 01:00:38.680 got to build some sort of relationship to trust each other. 01:00:39.720 --> 01:00:41.420 Yeah, no, that's good. 01:00:41.880 --> 01:00:45.540 So thank you for sharing some of those. 01:00:45.780 --> 01:00:48.360 And I mean, those obviously are hard to share as well, right? 01:00:48.360 --> 01:00:54.740 Because it's places that we've failed or we have not done well, right? 01:00:54.800 --> 01:00:56.600 At our first go, if you will. 01:00:57.140 --> 01:01:04.720 So can you just to be able to kind of bring back some hope, can you just tell us a time 01:01:04.720 --> 01:01:11.220 where you saw actually success in engaging with someone online and it actually helped deepen 01:01:11.220 --> 01:01:18.720 a relationship or bring about reconciliation that drew people from place of division into 01:01:18.720 --> 01:01:23.880 togetherness and how that really can glorify God through the way that we interact with one 01:01:23.880 --> 01:01:24.120 another? 01:01:24.880 --> 01:01:31.640 Well, by the way, one thing about just sharing our failings and our, in Christ, we are in 01:01:31.640 --> 01:01:32.940 the center of his grace. 01:01:33.400 --> 01:01:36.480 We're not on the edges falling off if we do something wrong. 01:01:36.480 --> 01:01:41.400 And when you believe you are in the center of God's grace, then you joyfully look at the 01:01:41.400 --> 01:01:42.500 sins that are in your life. 01:01:42.600 --> 01:01:44.320 That's an expression of God's love. 01:01:44.420 --> 01:01:45.500 There's no shame in that. 01:01:46.220 --> 01:01:47.480 It's in a climate of grace. 01:01:47.580 --> 01:01:50.180 You can say, man, you know, I am not doing well as a husband. 01:01:50.760 --> 01:01:52.380 I'm not doing well as a father. 01:01:52.600 --> 01:01:59.120 And you share that story, not joyfully, like you're rejoicing in your failings, but you're 01:01:59.120 --> 01:02:02.860 rejoicing that you abide in a place where you can bring those to the light. 01:02:03.740 --> 01:02:05.320 And this is a problem with some Christians. 01:02:05.420 --> 01:02:07.700 They believe righteousness is in doing things right. 01:02:07.820 --> 01:02:11.580 And when you point out that they've done something wrong, their whole identity crumbles. 01:02:11.720 --> 01:02:12.740 So they fight with you. 01:02:12.800 --> 01:02:13.660 They can't apologize. 01:02:14.300 --> 01:02:18.420 They can't admit to failings because their whole identity and righteousness is wrapped in 01:02:18.420 --> 01:02:19.100 doing it right. 01:02:19.500 --> 01:02:20.820 That is not my identity. 01:02:21.380 --> 01:02:24.640 My identity is in Christ Jesus, his grace and his love. 01:02:24.680 --> 01:02:27.960 And in a climate of love and grace, he conforms me to his image. 01:02:28.060 --> 01:02:30.200 So I can talk about my sins. 01:02:30.640 --> 01:02:31.500 I can repent. 01:02:32.080 --> 01:02:32.780 I can grow. 01:02:33.320 --> 01:02:34.180 And you'll see that. 01:02:34.300 --> 01:02:37.240 Christians who won't apologize, they have the wrong gospel. 01:02:37.500 --> 01:02:40.820 They have a gospel that righteousness is through doing things right. 01:02:40.820 --> 01:02:44.160 And no man or woman can ever be right all the time. 01:02:44.540 --> 01:02:50.560 The success story for me is this, that I work within a group of diverse people. 01:02:51.160 --> 01:02:56.160 My online presence is far more healthy and diverse than my in-person presence. 01:02:56.160 --> 01:03:00.060 I'm trying to have my in-person presence there, but I haven't been as successful. 01:03:00.420 --> 01:03:17.740 But I like the fact that I'm interacting with people from different races, different ethnicities, far right, far left, and that we have genuine relationships where we can love each other and respect each other and have dialogues and speak into each other's life. 01:03:17.880 --> 01:03:21.360 So to me, and that's taken work and it's taken time. 01:03:22.300 --> 01:03:25.540 That would be the thing that I'm most happy about. 01:03:25.760 --> 01:03:27.020 And that's an intentionality. 01:03:27.080 --> 01:03:34.640 An intentionality of looking like, you know, I hardly have any women in positions of authority that I'm following right now. 01:03:34.720 --> 01:03:38.500 So I go and find that to make sure that there's a better expression. 01:03:38.980 --> 01:03:39.520 Age groups. 01:03:39.720 --> 01:03:41.320 Like, you can just hang out with your own age group. 01:03:41.460 --> 01:03:48.200 I want to make sure, am I just hanging out with Generation Xers or do I have a good representation of millennials and zennials and whatever we want to call people? 01:03:48.780 --> 01:03:56.480 You know, I want to make sure, and older people, that reality is something that I want expressed in my, so that would be the big one. 01:03:56.480 --> 01:04:00.020 I have personal stories with people where I met them when they were hurt or they were angry. 01:04:00.460 --> 01:04:01.500 I listened to their anger. 01:04:01.620 --> 01:04:02.380 I listened to their hurt. 01:04:02.820 --> 01:04:05.460 And we became friends, the ability to trust. 01:04:06.120 --> 01:04:08.860 And there's some people online that I trust. 01:04:08.940 --> 01:04:14.800 I've never met them in person, but I trust them as much as the closest person, you know, in our church. 01:04:15.740 --> 01:04:21.820 So I do believe you can have meaningful, in-depth relationships online. 01:04:22.080 --> 01:04:32.500 And so when people say you can't do anything or you can't have anything online, I would question maybe the way you're presenting yourself is impacting what you get out of your online communication. 01:04:33.280 --> 01:04:40.520 I think all of us at some level can find deep relationships with people online who have similar opinions, ideas. 01:04:40.660 --> 01:04:41.920 You know, even this is kind of a cool thing, right? 01:04:41.920 --> 01:04:45.840 We don't know each other, but we kind of do through social media. 01:04:46.680 --> 01:04:48.600 It's beneficial, I think, to all of us. 01:04:48.680 --> 01:04:49.420 And that's a gift. 01:04:49.520 --> 01:04:52.520 We wouldn't have had it if at some level we weren't interacting online. 01:04:53.240 --> 01:04:55.600 So this would be an expression of that as well. 01:04:55.760 --> 01:05:02.100 I wasn't afraid going on to this podcast because I'd seen enough interaction online to know, well, this is a safe place. 01:05:02.940 --> 01:05:08.560 So those kinds of relationships and those kinds of testimonies I see on a daily, weekly basis. 01:05:10.180 --> 01:05:13.800 That's a good compliment to me. 01:05:13.960 --> 01:05:19.680 I think to Hector as well, that you would look at our, you know, you would look at our profiles and think these are safe people. 01:05:20.240 --> 01:05:20.380 Yeah. 01:05:21.460 --> 01:05:22.560 Well, it's huge, isn't it? 01:05:22.560 --> 01:05:23.760 And we are looking for that. 01:05:23.960 --> 01:05:28.280 And just, and Hector's interacted with me a few times and I've interacted with him. 01:05:29.060 --> 01:05:33.560 And that's where we have to really, it's not about our ideology or our politics. 01:05:33.560 --> 01:05:37.300 It's just someone who you feel like is kind to you. 01:05:37.860 --> 01:05:38.140 Yeah. 01:05:39.080 --> 01:05:39.520 Okay. 01:05:40.000 --> 01:05:42.220 Or they're not going to tear you apart if you disagree. 01:05:42.340 --> 01:05:45.780 Like you feel like they're okay if we don't agree on everything. 01:05:45.780 --> 01:05:47.820 They're still going to show love to me. 01:05:48.020 --> 01:05:49.780 And you don't always find that online, right? 01:05:50.020 --> 01:05:50.860 You're afraid. 01:05:51.080 --> 01:05:53.680 Like it's everybody's walking around the temple ready to turn over a table. 01:05:53.760 --> 01:05:56.280 And I just feel like we just got a bunch of table turners. 01:05:56.560 --> 01:06:01.880 And Jesus was known as love and table turning was something he did that was an exception to what he did in most places. 01:06:01.880 --> 01:06:02.880 But he's still known as love. 01:06:02.880 --> 01:06:04.400 Other people are just known as table turners. 01:06:04.460 --> 01:06:11.140 So you're sitting in the temple of God trying to do something worthy, not selling pigeons, not hurting foreigners. 01:06:11.240 --> 01:06:12.400 You're just trying to bless people. 01:06:12.780 --> 01:06:16.360 And someone comes up to you and snarls at you and says, am I going to turn over your table? 01:06:16.440 --> 01:06:17.280 And you show them your stuff. 01:06:17.360 --> 01:06:18.320 Like, okay, not today. 01:06:18.800 --> 01:06:21.100 But you have this fear that tomorrow they're going to turn over your table. 01:06:21.220 --> 01:06:28.500 We have to be people out there saying, hey, even if we disagree here, I'm going to try to find a way to love you first and to understand you first. 01:06:29.000 --> 01:06:29.940 Yeah, I might flip your table. 01:06:29.940 --> 01:06:33.920 But at least we're going to have a discussion before we do that. 01:06:34.400 --> 01:06:34.520 Yeah. 01:06:34.900 --> 01:06:36.800 At least you'll know who's flipping your table. 01:06:37.200 --> 01:06:37.560 Right. 01:06:37.640 --> 01:06:37.780 Yeah. 01:06:37.800 --> 01:06:38.720 Oh, that's the son of God. 01:06:38.780 --> 01:06:38.980 Right. 01:06:39.040 --> 01:06:39.180 Yeah. 01:06:39.180 --> 01:06:42.760 And then if I flip your table, I'll die for all the sins in the room as well. 01:06:42.840 --> 01:06:44.640 So that's another thing to remember when you're flipping tables. 01:06:45.060 --> 01:06:47.060 Jesus also died for every person in that room. 01:06:47.160 --> 01:06:50.600 So you also got to lay down your life for the people that you're fighting against. 01:06:51.200 --> 01:06:51.480 Yeah. 01:06:51.800 --> 01:06:52.160 Wow. 01:06:54.800 --> 01:06:55.660 That's so good. 01:07:04.660 --> 01:07:12.740 Well, do you have any, we are, we are at and beyond. 01:07:12.880 --> 01:07:15.740 We shoot for one time and we always overshoot. 01:07:17.020 --> 01:07:18.520 Have any closing thoughts? 01:07:19.740 --> 01:07:21.380 Juan, just thank you for what you're doing. 01:07:21.400 --> 01:07:22.920 And I do want to encourage you. 01:07:23.020 --> 01:07:26.280 The strength of the age we live in is anybody can create content. 01:07:26.440 --> 01:07:27.360 I don't mean that flippantly. 01:07:27.520 --> 01:07:28.820 It's like we can create content. 01:07:28.820 --> 01:07:30.620 And I self-published my first book. 01:07:30.760 --> 01:07:36.200 My second book is being published by a publisher, but I consider them both works that I'm proud of. 01:07:37.340 --> 01:07:43.480 I just want to encourage anyone listening to this is that we do well when we do what God has placed on our heart. 01:07:43.940 --> 01:07:49.380 We become bitter when other people are doing what God has placed on their heart and we're just assessing them. 01:07:49.700 --> 01:07:56.520 I think often where we're assessing people and disgruntled with people often has to do with giftings that we're not using. 01:07:56.820 --> 01:08:02.580 So if you're upset with a pastor or preacher who's, you just don't like other preaching and teaching, okay, that's fine. 01:08:03.060 --> 01:08:08.060 But maybe you also need to start communicating that what's happening is you don't have an outlet for your voice. 01:08:08.180 --> 01:08:17.960 So do the podcast, write something, post something, talk to someone, because it's so much more redemptive to have something flowing out of you versus just reacting to other things. 01:08:17.960 --> 01:08:19.640 Yes, there's sins to react against. 01:08:19.820 --> 01:08:21.420 Yes, there's bad pastors, bad leaders. 01:08:21.980 --> 01:08:22.700 That's fine. 01:08:22.800 --> 01:08:26.020 But if we're just doing that, we grow bitter and disgruntled. 01:08:26.140 --> 01:08:31.220 We were made at some level to be vessels of God's glory, to emanate his beauty. 01:08:31.620 --> 01:08:37.620 So I would encourage anyone listening, at some level, find an outlet for God to speak through you. 01:08:37.720 --> 01:08:42.440 And it can be anything, poetry, dance, art, speaking, spending time with people. 01:08:43.020 --> 01:08:48.700 That brings a different perspective to us than when we sit down and listen to the person that gets us a little disgruntled. 01:08:48.700 --> 01:08:53.800 It changes our attitude because we're being used as a vessel versus just being a spectator. 01:08:57.700 --> 01:08:58.340 That's good. 01:08:58.440 --> 01:09:00.540 Thank you so much for your time, Doug. 01:09:00.620 --> 01:09:09.720 I really just appreciate this conversation and just your insight and just really looking forward to more conversation with you. 01:09:09.780 --> 01:09:10.380 All right. 01:09:10.420 --> 01:09:10.960 Hey, Jeff here. 01:09:11.040 --> 01:09:14.520 And we're back from the Pocket Pulpit Podcast Takeover. 01:09:14.840 --> 01:09:16.860 Got Hector Martinez, Sarah Kinzer here. 01:09:17.320 --> 01:09:17.980 Hey, guys. 01:09:18.100 --> 01:09:19.540 So let me ask you this. 01:09:19.660 --> 01:09:23.860 What stood out for you as you were listening to this episode again? 01:09:24.060 --> 01:09:24.540 Yeah, absolutely. 01:09:24.700 --> 01:09:32.640 I think one of the things that I appreciate about Doug is that he is active on social media. 01:09:33.440 --> 01:09:43.120 It isn't just something that he's using, you know, to promote his book, promote materials, or, you know, as we talked about at the top of the episode, like, just invite people to events. 01:09:43.120 --> 01:09:49.240 Like, he's on there talking, posting questions, engaging in conversation. 01:09:50.080 --> 01:10:03.440 And I always, always, always go back to his point in the story about Jesus seeking out the one and what that should do to us internally. 01:10:03.440 --> 01:10:18.600 Like, if people are online and they're lost or there's somebody who's been hurt by the church and is just in this kind of mess of life or trying to figure things out, like, shouldn't we go and find them? 01:10:18.600 --> 01:10:27.460 And I think that, to me, when I hear that, as I listen back to that conversation, it's always kind of in the back of my mind. 01:10:27.860 --> 01:10:34.160 Try to keep that in front of me as well, like, there are people here that matter to Jesus. 01:10:34.700 --> 01:10:41.620 And if you really want to live out the greatest commandments, like, you got to love those people. 01:10:42.320 --> 01:10:58.840 And I think that Doug lives that out and is a great example for us in the church as we explore what it means to not just be on social media, but to invite people into relationship with ourselves and with Jesus. 01:10:58.980 --> 01:11:16.140 Yeah, and when Doug is talking and he talks about, I mean, he gets so, he's so vulnerable and that vulnerability just, I mean, I've listened to this episode several times, several times since we recorded it. 01:11:16.420 --> 01:11:21.660 And that vulnerability, it just, it just hits me every time. 01:11:22.020 --> 01:11:36.560 And to think about what is the, what matters, you know, what does it, does it matter the size of your church or the, the things that you can say that you've done? 01:11:36.780 --> 01:11:50.040 Does that stuff matter or does, is what matters that you've cared for people and you've loved people and you've gone, you've gone after the ones who are hurting and broken and, and loved them well. 01:11:50.540 --> 01:12:02.000 And, um, yeah, that, that vulnerability just really, I remember when we had the conversation, every time I've listened to it, um, 01:12:02.220 --> 01:12:21.160 you know, you can hear Doug getting choked up and every time I listened to it, I'm right there with him, just getting choked up because I've been, I've been able to, to go and love people well, but I've also been on the receiving end of get, of being, um, being cared for. 01:12:21.160 --> 01:12:22.460 And it, and he's right. 01:12:22.560 --> 01:12:24.000 It, it matters so much. 01:12:24.100 --> 01:12:24.780 It matters so much. 01:12:24.820 --> 01:12:32.180 It matters more than, um, being, uh, a, a pastor of a million people. 01:12:32.180 --> 01:12:35.720 It matters more than, um, having a bestseller. 01:12:35.800 --> 01:12:39.560 It matters more than, than any accolade you could come up with. 01:12:39.560 --> 01:12:53.460 Well, I will, I will share too, cause I've personally, uh, benefited from Doug's ministry in that Doug has reached out to pastors online and said, look, the last few years have been rough. 01:12:53.760 --> 01:13:00.500 And if anyone wants to just pray with other pastors and process, like I'm going to open up a zoom in an hour. 01:13:00.500 --> 01:13:07.480 And I, I got to hop on a zoom and there was two people and Doug didn't go, ah, actually like, this is a pretty small gathering. 01:13:07.480 --> 01:13:09.380 Like I was hoping more people would show up. 01:13:09.480 --> 01:13:15.580 Doug said, okay, you've got more time to share process and pray and, and do that. 01:13:15.580 --> 01:13:25.700 And, uh, um, I, I just think that the, the person that Doug is on this episode shines through and, uh, it's probably going to go down as one of my favorite episodes. 01:13:25.840 --> 01:13:29.580 I actually got to meet Doug in person too, randomly, uh, which was great. 01:13:29.580 --> 01:13:33.600 Uh, you don't always get to, to do that with the people you interview, uh, online. 01:13:33.840 --> 01:13:33.980 So. 01:13:34.740 --> 01:13:35.380 Very, very cool. 01:13:35.900 --> 01:13:37.320 Well, I'm even reflecting. 01:13:37.320 --> 01:13:43.620 I don't know if my episode with y'all has, has aired on Pocket Pulpit Podcast, but you had me crying too. 01:13:43.720 --> 01:13:46.300 So I'm actually curious and you can listen to that podcast if you want. 01:13:46.420 --> 01:13:48.180 Uh, I was, I got, got a little emotional. 01:13:48.480 --> 01:13:51.080 What's the percentage of people you have getting emotional on your podcast? 01:13:51.080 --> 01:13:54.560 Cause that's, that's two and you guys haven't been around that long. 01:13:54.560 --> 01:13:57.600 And so I'm, I'm wondering like, what, what are you doing to make everybody start crying? 01:13:58.020 --> 01:14:00.520 Well, I'm, you know, I'm not running the numbers. 01:14:00.520 --> 01:14:08.120 I'm not really a math gal, but you know, we do, we do invite, um, invite people just to speak from their heart. 01:14:08.240 --> 01:14:09.360 We want to hear their stories. 01:14:09.840 --> 01:14:16.660 And, um, you know, when, and just to tell us what, what's worked and what hasn't. 01:14:16.740 --> 01:14:21.100 And often it's in that, like, when they think about what have I tried that hasn't worked and 01:14:21.100 --> 01:14:27.200 what have I tried that has, then they can remember those stories about like, about everything that 01:14:27.200 --> 01:14:30.460 they've put into it and everything they've learned from it. 01:14:30.640 --> 01:14:31.680 Cause it matters. 01:14:31.860 --> 01:14:36.700 I, it matters to the people you're reaching out to and it matters to, to you as you reach out to people. 01:14:36.820 --> 01:14:38.820 It, it, it changes you. 01:14:39.260 --> 01:14:39.560 Very good. 01:14:39.620 --> 01:14:40.780 And that is, that is true. 01:14:40.940 --> 01:14:48.020 So pocket pulpit podcast, you can find the information, uh, links to subscribe in the show notes and would 01:14:48.020 --> 01:14:55.080 encourage you, uh, to give these a listen, get them passed on past this podcast on to the social media 01:14:55.080 --> 01:15:01.940 staff and volunteers, communication people within your church and really start to wrestle with social 01:15:01.940 --> 01:15:09.920 media, not just being a, a communication tool, but a community tool, an opportunity to engage in 01:15:09.920 --> 01:15:17.480 relationships more than just communicating what's happening as, uh, as a weekend service or an event 01:15:17.480 --> 01:15:19.360 that's happening at your church. 01:15:19.460 --> 01:15:26.640 There's so much more potential and we'll also include, um, uh, his, uh, a Burge, uh, Doug Burge, 01:15:26.680 --> 01:15:31.180 excuse me, Doug Burge's, uh, contact info, or at least the social media info. 01:15:31.180 --> 01:15:35.640 Like if he's setting the example, we'd love to have other people kind of follow suit on that. 01:15:35.720 --> 01:15:40.300 So look in the show notes for some of the information on him and, uh, you can tell him, 01:15:40.320 --> 01:15:44.960 well, by the way, a couple of weirdos was on Jeff's podcast and that, you know, anyway, came up. 01:15:44.960 --> 01:15:49.920 So, or maybe a couple of really nice people were on that weirdo, weirdo Jeff guys podcast. 01:15:50.280 --> 01:15:50.780 And, uh, 01:15:50.900 --> 01:15:53.220 Yeah, we're, we're in the, we're in the pocket. 01:15:53.740 --> 01:15:54.100 Yeah. 01:15:54.160 --> 01:15:55.380 We're, I think we're all a little weird here. 01:15:55.480 --> 01:15:57.060 So, but Hey, we're, we're going to land the plane. 01:15:57.120 --> 01:15:57.600 This is great. 01:15:57.680 --> 01:15:59.880 Hey, check out pocket pulpit podcast. 01:15:59.980 --> 01:16:00.260 Look at that. 01:16:00.280 --> 01:16:00.940 I said it quickly. 01:16:01.180 --> 01:16:03.580 I have been unable to say that for a week. 01:16:03.680 --> 01:16:06.620 And so pocket pulpit podcast, it's, it's rolling off the tongue now. 01:16:06.680 --> 01:16:07.640 I got past my yips. 01:16:07.760 --> 01:16:10.640 So excited about what's happening here, uh, with these two. 01:16:10.800 --> 01:16:15.860 Check it out next week as we're having another, uh, uh, the church digital podcast takeover 01:16:15.860 --> 01:16:19.080 from another podcast that will be announced soon. 01:16:19.080 --> 01:16:23.360 So we'll see you guys, uh, next week at the podcast, but for Hector, for Sarah, this is 01:16:23.360 --> 01:16:27.480 Jeff with the church digital, digital church network, and a whole bunch of other fun stuff. 01:16:27.560 --> 01:16:30.620 Thanks for jumping on the podcast here and we'll see you next time here at the show. 01:16:30.880 --> 01:16:31.300 Y'all have a good one.