WEBVTT

00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:04.540
 So the deep church, yeah, they're going to come, they're going to come hurt, they're going to come

00:00:04.540 --> 00:00:11.040
 broken, but we can separate what happened to them from who they are, the value that they have as a

00:00:11.040 --> 00:00:16.680
 son or daughter of God. And that's game changing. Welcome to the Church Digital Podcast. Through

00:00:16.680 --> 00:00:21.740
 this podcast, we'll talk about the technological innovations within the church. But more than

00:00:21.740 --> 00:00:27.760
 tech for tech itself, we'll address deeper questions. Is disciple making possible digitally?

00:00:28.560 --> 00:00:33.840
 How should we approach the digital mission field? Can a biblically grounded church operate in digital

00:00:33.840 --> 00:00:39.840
 space? Oh, and where does the metaverse fit into all this? Whether you're a big or small church,

00:00:39.840 --> 00:00:45.300
 an established church, or a startup church plant, the Church Digital's goal is to help churches like

00:00:45.300 --> 00:00:52.720
 yours learn to be a multiplying church, digitally and physically. Our heart that churches like yours

00:00:52.720 --> 00:00:57.620
 will discover a newfound focus on disciple making that will revolutionize your church.

00:00:58.120 --> 00:01:00.960
 And now here's your host, Jeff Reed.

00:01:01.400 --> 00:01:08.940
 Hey, this is Jeff with the Church Digital and Leadership Network, New Thing Network. Oh my gosh,

00:01:09.020 --> 00:01:14.180
 Digital Church Network. I feel like I just can go on and on and on with all these titles. But I tell

00:01:14.180 --> 00:01:19.780
 you, I'm having so much fun right now. Like it is a blast. My dog doesn't sleep at night. So I got

00:01:19.780 --> 00:01:23.820
 about three hours sleep last night because my dog sleeps all during the day. So I'm exhausted,

00:01:23.820 --> 00:01:28.280
 but it is so much fun. Do you ever have that problem? John, do you have any pets? I'm totally

00:01:28.280 --> 00:01:32.920
 going off topic here. I'm just I don't have any pets. No, but I have that. That may be the smartest

00:01:32.920 --> 00:01:39.940
 thing. Well, no, I have three daughters under the age of seven. And so sleep is still an issue for you.

00:01:40.100 --> 00:01:50.320
 Yes, it is. That's good. Hey, listen here with the Church Digital here with this podcast, we're entering

00:01:50.320 --> 00:01:57.060
 into season three. And really what we're highlighting here with season three is this idea of the humble

00:01:57.060 --> 00:02:03.160
 disruptor. Yeah. Hey, listen, if you listen to this podcast, you know, we are all about disruption and

00:02:03.160 --> 00:02:08.540
 we're all about doing things differently. And it's funny, actually, I was speaking in front of some

00:02:08.540 --> 00:02:15.080
 global leaders maybe four months ago or so. And this lady pulls me aside and she's with a global

00:02:15.080 --> 00:02:19.680
 missions organization. And she says, I want you to know that what you just talked about was very

00:02:19.680 --> 00:02:25.420
 disruptive within the church. And I can understand why people look at you weird sometimes, because these

00:02:25.420 --> 00:02:31.480
 are some really disruptive and difficult topics to handle. And I said, I appreciate that. I do get a lot

00:02:31.480 --> 00:02:37.340
 of weird looks. And she said, but I want you to know, I've never heard anybody say anything as aggressive

00:02:37.340 --> 00:02:44.140
 and as disruptive as you just did and have the humility that you had when you said it. And she said that

00:02:44.140 --> 00:02:51.400
 made your words so much more impactful because you weren't doing disruption for disruptive sake. And it was

00:02:51.400 --> 00:02:58.340
 like, oh, my gosh, that right there is the summarization of what I want to do with my life. And now, as we're

00:02:58.340 --> 00:03:03.920
 trying to encourage others to be disruptive in the season, engaging in different modes of church, man, let's keep

00:03:03.920 --> 00:03:11.440
 that humility in place with that disruption. And by the way, sir, Dr. John Harris on here, he is the walking

00:03:11.440 --> 00:03:18.100
 embodiment of humility while being disruptive. And so as we're kicking off the season, I don't know that I was

00:03:18.100 --> 00:03:24.660
 intentionally trying to structure this, but you truly are a perfect example of somebody that's, you know, showing much

00:03:24.660 --> 00:03:31.440
 humility and grace, even while doing something as disruptive as you're doing with with hearts like his, your Facebook

00:03:31.440 --> 00:03:34.620
 church. And so, sir, thank you very much for jumping on this with us.

00:03:34.860 --> 00:03:36.520
 Yeah, my pleasure. Glad to be here.

00:03:37.460 --> 00:03:42.520
 Hey, like, let's even have some fun just kind of kicking off here. By the way, we're doing this show on

00:03:42.520 --> 00:03:51.440
 on social media. And so we are all over the place. And that's awesome. We love it. And so if we at the

00:03:51.440 --> 00:03:57.620
 same time, we're, we're testing out this new technology, we're trying to, to get a regular live

00:03:57.620 --> 00:04:04.900
 stream happening in our alter live kind of showroom here. And so I'm actually looking at the stream out

00:04:04.900 --> 00:04:11.240
 of the corner of my eye. And I think we've got some technical difficulties. I know, uh, my, uh, uh, my

00:04:11.240 --> 00:04:15.980
 associate is, is working on it, hopefully trying to get in touch with alter live. They've been having some buggy

00:04:15.980 --> 00:04:20.760
 issues. I don't want to call them publicly, but some issues with some RTMP streaming. There's some patches

00:04:20.760 --> 00:04:25.740
 that are supposedly coming. And so if we get it working, I'm going to encourage social media people

00:04:25.740 --> 00:04:30.540
 come hang out with us over in alter live and enjoying the show over there. But yeah, you may have a better view

00:04:30.540 --> 00:04:34.300
 where you are right now. So in social media, so we'll, we'll get there in a little bit, but Hey,

00:04:34.600 --> 00:04:41.220
 even just to open up here, uh, Dr. Harris, um, tell us a little bit like who you are, what's your story?

00:04:41.320 --> 00:04:48.140
 Talk to us a little bit about how, um, how, uh, hearts like his is, is working and operating.

00:04:48.520 --> 00:04:56.100
 Yeah. Um, so I, I, and I don't know how many times I've heard this, but I'm, I'm part of that group.

00:04:56.100 --> 00:05:02.140
 I grew up as a pastor's kid, but what was unique about my experience was that my dad was an air

00:05:02.140 --> 00:05:08.300
 force chaplain. And so, um, for the first part of my childhood, he was an air force chaplain.

00:05:08.300 --> 00:05:14.220
 And then he retired and then he started pastoring a church in Arkansas and, um, uh, Baptist church

00:05:14.220 --> 00:05:19.520
 in Arkansas. And that's where I really matured and, uh, just learning some of his own, uh, leadership

00:05:19.520 --> 00:05:24.240
 and things like that. And certainly he was a mentor for me in ministry. And so that was a tremendous,

00:05:24.240 --> 00:05:29.880
 tremendous asset to me along with my mother. Um, both of them were just solid, solid believers.

00:05:29.880 --> 00:05:36.720
 And so I had a strong, uh, Christian foundation, um, not just from like a Sunday school class

00:05:36.720 --> 00:05:41.100
 or things like that, but from my parents' lives and, uh, and the atmosphere that they created

00:05:41.100 --> 00:05:47.320
 in our, in our home. And so, uh, after, after high school, I went to college. Uh, well, I,

00:05:47.320 --> 00:05:53.660
 I accepted my call to ministry when I was 15. And so going into my sophomore year, um, I was,

00:05:53.780 --> 00:06:00.520
 I started to be in ministry and speaking whenever I had opportunities to. Um, and so I committed

00:06:00.520 --> 00:06:05.840
 when I was in college to go into full-time ministry. So I, after college, I went to seminary,

00:06:05.840 --> 00:06:11.800
 uh, in Memphis and, uh, and then into the air force as a chaplain. So as a chaplain in air force

00:06:11.800 --> 00:06:18.900
 for nine years, uh, spent a tour in Iraq in 2007 and Afghanistan, 2010, ministering to, uh,

00:06:18.900 --> 00:06:25.020
 troops that were there as well as our, our medical team. Um, and so then about after nine years of

00:06:25.020 --> 00:06:30.820
 that, I, um, I left and joined a church here in Northern California in Fairfield as the, uh,

00:06:30.820 --> 00:06:36.840
 Christian education pastor and teaching pastor. Then I evolved into small groups, pastor, executive

00:06:36.840 --> 00:06:43.860
 pastor. Um, so after nine years of that, um, I stepped down from that in 2019, just feeling like

00:06:43.860 --> 00:06:49.440
 I wanted to serve more churches. Um, and not just the one that I was serving at as far as helping

00:06:49.440 --> 00:06:54.940
 them turn some things around. And, um, and part of that was me watching some of these trends that

00:06:54.940 --> 00:06:59.500
 actually led to the birth of hearts like his, it's seeing that churches were in trouble. Churches were

00:06:59.500 --> 00:07:03.600
 not healthy. Churches were declining or plateauing, depending on whoever you talk to

00:07:03.600 --> 00:07:09.340
 between 80, 85, 90% of churches in America have been plateauing or declining for a lot of years.

00:07:09.340 --> 00:07:14.100
 Like that's been a consistent, you know, Barna report, Pew research report. That's been a

00:07:14.100 --> 00:07:18.580
 consistent trend for several years and nothing seemed to have turned it around. So I just felt

00:07:18.580 --> 00:07:23.900
 a conviction, man, let me just kind of step down from this full-time role and help as many other

00:07:23.900 --> 00:07:29.460
 pastors and churches as I, as I could. And then when, um, when COVID happened in 2020

00:07:29.460 --> 00:07:35.200
 and, uh, um, a lot of churches were looking at trying to do something online and I thought,

00:07:35.200 --> 00:07:41.200
 well, okay, I'm not, I'm not at a, at a, on staff at a church right now. And, uh, and I'm seeing this,

00:07:41.520 --> 00:07:46.700
 this increase in the number of people who are leaving the church. Um, some were leaving the faith

00:07:46.700 --> 00:07:52.500
 altogether, but many of them were just leaving the church. And, uh, so as I dived into that to find

00:07:52.500 --> 00:07:56.600
 out why and do some research, that's where I ran across Josh Packard's book, which I would recommend

00:07:56.600 --> 00:08:03.540
 any pastor or anyone looking to see some of the insights behind this trend, uh, his book church

00:08:03.540 --> 00:08:10.860
 refugees, which is really good. But, um, um, um, so long story short, I thought, uh, man, why I think

00:08:10.860 --> 00:08:15.820
 it's possible for us to do something on Facebook, to just try to target those people who have left the

00:08:15.820 --> 00:08:21.680
 church, but still love Jesus. Like that, that's my main demographic, my main target, those who left the

00:08:21.680 --> 00:08:28.080
 church, but still love Jesus. And, uh, because God's plan for them is to still be in the body.

00:08:28.620 --> 00:08:33.720
 And, uh, and even though one expression of church might not work, there are other expressions of

00:08:33.720 --> 00:08:39.740
 church. One of which I was getting ready to lean into myself, which was the online one. And I think

00:08:39.740 --> 00:08:45.240
 if I had started a hearts like his, which is really for now, uh, a congregation on Facebook,

00:08:45.620 --> 00:08:49.140
 if I started that five, six years ago, I might've had a more of an uphill battle,

00:08:49.140 --> 00:08:56.120
 but starting it in the midst of, uh, of COVID when, um, a lot of churches were online,

00:08:56.120 --> 00:09:02.340
 it kind of helped me slide in with, with not as much resistance. And so, um, uh, looking at people

00:09:02.340 --> 00:09:08.340
 like Angela Craig, when she started for search to pursue church live on Facebook, looking at some

00:09:08.340 --> 00:09:13.380
 things that Myron Pierce was doing in his digital ministry, I thought, okay, this really is possible.

00:09:13.980 --> 00:09:21.260
 So me and my wife looked into it, leaned into it, and we started it January 5th, 2021. And so here we are

00:09:21.260 --> 00:09:27.120
 a year later, well, now a year and some change later. And, uh, and it's, it's been a great, great

00:09:27.120 --> 00:09:33.860
 experience. And, uh, and certainly I've learned a lot, um, because we were successful in targeting

00:09:33.860 --> 00:09:38.780
 some of those people in that demographic I was talking about who left the church, but still love Jesus,

00:09:38.780 --> 00:09:43.200
 and now we're finding a really healthy and thriving community online. And so it's like,

00:09:43.440 --> 00:09:44.780
 it's just been a dream come true.

00:09:45.560 --> 00:09:49.080
 I gotta tell you, it doesn't feel, it feels like you've been doing this longer than,

00:09:49.560 --> 00:09:54.660
 than, than a year or so. Like, it feels like you've had, we've had more conversations and you've,

00:09:54.660 --> 00:09:58.740
 you've had more experiences. So when, when you're like, yeah, it was January 21. Man,

00:09:59.260 --> 00:10:05.060
 that was not that long ago. I know. I know. Yeah. Congratulations. You feel like a seasoned expert

00:10:05.060 --> 00:10:11.580
 in the grand scheme of, of digital churches. And, uh, I totally, I really want to unpack. I'm going

00:10:11.580 --> 00:10:15.940
 to, I want to come back and I want to ask you a question about your military. We'll do it at the

00:10:15.940 --> 00:10:20.500
 end. Don't let me forget. I want to throw that on as a takeaway. Cause I forget that you have got

00:10:20.500 --> 00:10:25.540
 that military expertise. I want to get into it. All right. So really, I mean, what I wanted to do is

00:10:25.540 --> 00:10:30.300
 I wanted to talk about this idea of de-churched, uh, you know, within digital churches and metaverse

00:10:30.300 --> 00:10:34.960
 churches, I've got friends of mine, uh, Jason Poling, Cornerstone, uh, Yuba city,

00:10:35.360 --> 00:10:41.120
 Cornerstone virtual reality. Um, he tells me, Jeff, 70% of the people that are active in our church,

00:10:41.120 --> 00:10:47.080
 uh, virtue and virtual reality are de-churched, uh, and just constantly, uh, you know, I've had this

00:10:47.080 --> 00:10:54.620
 conversation with Jared, uh, uh, Hughes, uh, Jared is over at, um, uh, Hope city church. Uh, yeah.

00:10:54.620 --> 00:11:00.120
 And, um, and, and so he's, he's telling me stories where it's this huge percentage of, uh,

00:11:00.180 --> 00:11:05.560
 of, of de-churched as well that are active in there. And so I, you know, this is a, this

00:11:05.560 --> 00:11:12.160
 is a unscientific observation, but it seems to me like de-churched people, people that have

00:11:12.160 --> 00:11:18.980
 left the church, um, inserting the word building, but still love Jesus. It seems like they're engaging

00:11:18.980 --> 00:11:23.680
 in digital spaces. Would you like, this is unscientific, you know, I don't have like

00:11:23.680 --> 00:11:27.720
 massive white sheets backing me up here, but would, would you agree to that? Or do you,

00:11:27.800 --> 00:11:29.440
 do you feel that through, uh, through your church?

00:11:29.760 --> 00:11:36.640
 A hundred percent, a hundred percent. And so what I, what I cannot say is what percentage of those who

00:11:36.640 --> 00:11:43.580
 have left the, the, the building are plugged into these digital spaces. But what I, and others,

00:11:43.580 --> 00:11:48.080
 like you've mentioned, can say is that for those of us who are in these digital spaces,

00:11:48.080 --> 00:11:55.220
 there is, uh, above 50% of those are people who have left, who have left the, uh, who've left the

00:11:55.220 --> 00:12:00.380
 building. Um, ironically, you know, when churches talk about being missional, whatever they say,

00:12:00.440 --> 00:12:05.060
 the church has left the building. No, no, they hadn't. They may have for a weekend, but they,

00:12:05.200 --> 00:12:08.360
 but they really, or, or a day for their event, but they come right back to the building.

00:12:08.500 --> 00:12:13.720
 There is another part of the church that has left the building for real. And those are the ones who,

00:12:13.720 --> 00:12:20.900
 who are in these digital spaces, which actually supports the, the, the reality that these people

00:12:20.900 --> 00:12:26.240
 have left one expression for church. They did not leave Christianity. They did not leave Jesus,

00:12:26.240 --> 00:12:31.640
 but they left searching for other ways to, to live out their faith, strengthen their faith,

00:12:32.000 --> 00:12:36.720
 flourish in their faith, um, and to connect with other believers. And before the digital space

00:12:36.720 --> 00:12:43.880
 really got, um, really got rolling, there was no other place for them to go when they went from

00:12:43.880 --> 00:12:48.500
 first. They, most of them thought, well, many of them, I haven't surveyed most of them. Many of

00:12:48.500 --> 00:12:54.740
 them based on their reports thought the problem was just one congregation. And then they went to

00:12:54.740 --> 00:12:58.900
 another congregation, another congregation, another congregation. And that's when they realized it's

00:12:58.900 --> 00:13:06.620
 not congregation specific or pastor specific. It's this model. And when they, when they

00:13:06.620 --> 00:13:11.840
 realized that it was the model that didn't fit them anymore, the Sunday focus, the worship, the

00:13:11.840 --> 00:13:16.740
 teaching, the offerings, the serving, you know, that, that model didn't fit them anymore. There was

00:13:16.740 --> 00:13:22.100
 nothing else out there for them that they knew of. And so they just didn't do anything. So with the

00:13:22.100 --> 00:13:27.740
 rise of house churches, with the rise of digital churches, now there's another, you know, there's

00:13:27.740 --> 00:13:32.020
 more options on the plate for them to kind of choose from. And so that's what's happening.

00:13:32.400 --> 00:13:38.220
 Yeah. You know, if COVID did one thing for us, it kind of messed up all the models and it broke the

00:13:38.220 --> 00:13:44.820
 mold of the brick and mortar. You know, and, and honestly, I do believe COVID won't accelerate. I

00:13:44.820 --> 00:13:50.660
 think we were destined to get there eventually. It just, COVID, God helped us get there a lot

00:13:50.660 --> 00:13:55.640
 quicker. But you're right. You know, the, the digital church, digital ministry, digital discipleship,

00:13:55.740 --> 00:14:01.300
 the, the acceleration that we're seeing in micro church in, in, in many ways, workplace ministries,

00:14:01.300 --> 00:14:08.560
 like the, the individual now is, is looking for, for purpose. And, and I honestly, I do, and we'll

00:14:08.560 --> 00:14:13.560
 talk more about this in, in future episodes, but I think we're going to be seeing a, a decentralized

00:14:13.560 --> 00:14:21.640
 movement. I think where you see a lot of, of individuals that are very excited about ministry.

00:14:21.860 --> 00:14:27.280
 They are now excited about the ministry beyond what happens in that building because of maybe

00:14:27.280 --> 00:14:31.700
 the struggles and the issues within that, that building. And so the church has an opportunity

00:14:31.700 --> 00:14:36.060
 maybe to, I hate to say the word pivot, cause we've heard that a lot, but have this opportunity

00:14:36.060 --> 00:14:40.780
 to engage in maybe helping others do ministry instead of asking others to help them do their

00:14:40.780 --> 00:14:45.580
 ministry. But that's a, that's a completely different conversation. Well, let me ask this.

00:14:45.720 --> 00:14:51.380
 Go ahead, go, go, go for it. It is a fuller and different conversation, but it is tied to

00:14:51.380 --> 00:14:56.840
 this one because when I talk to pastors who are saying, what, what can we do to prevent

00:14:56.840 --> 00:15:05.060
 this exodus? And, and so one of my recommendations is, is to, to add another model or expression

00:15:05.060 --> 00:15:09.720
 of church with your church. If you don't do that, then the people who are needing it are going

00:15:09.720 --> 00:15:16.220
 to go find it, but you can add something to your particular ministry and, and, and make

00:15:16.220 --> 00:15:20.920
 it, make it meaningful. And the, the, you, you mentioned a word there about purpose, seeking

00:15:20.920 --> 00:15:26.400
 purpose. Like part of what's happening is people are looking at, and I'm not trying to diminish

00:15:26.400 --> 00:15:30.060
 this, but this is a reality. We got, we just got to talk about it. When you have a growth

00:15:30.060 --> 00:15:35.480
 track and you're saying that two of those four weeks is one is find your, you know, your gift

00:15:35.480 --> 00:15:39.420
 assessment, like your, your, your, your giftings, and then to discover your purpose or walk

00:15:39.420 --> 00:15:42.940
 in your purpose. Well, when churches use the word purpose, they're talking about volunteer

00:15:42.940 --> 00:15:47.440
 positions, like people waking up. That's not the, God's purpose for the life is not to be

00:15:47.440 --> 00:15:52.280
 a greeter or this or that, or anything that's an hour and a half on Sunday. Like it's much

00:15:52.280 --> 00:15:57.420
 bigger than that. And so when churches help them discover their purpose for real, it could

00:15:57.420 --> 00:16:00.720
 be in the building or outside the building. Nine times out of 10, it's outside the building

00:16:00.720 --> 00:16:05.180
 and churches aren't helping people find places in their community to serve out their

00:16:05.180 --> 00:16:10.660
 purpose. They're only so far looking at a volunteer role, which is that more internal focus that

00:16:10.660 --> 00:16:15.280
 people who are leaving are trying to break out of. Yeah. Churches can't shift if they

00:16:15.280 --> 00:16:19.920
 shift. Totally, completely. We use the word multimodal a lot, at least when I was, when

00:16:19.920 --> 00:16:25.520
 I wear my Stadia hat, a church that's running multiple modes. And that's, that's a physical

00:16:25.520 --> 00:16:31.840
 church that's doing a micro, a physical church that's doing a digital expression. And, and

00:16:31.840 --> 00:16:37.320
 honestly, like I tell people, fidgetal was really the first time that churches had to wrestle

00:16:37.320 --> 00:16:43.660
 with being multimodal with wrestling with a physical and a digital. Now, to be honest, like

00:16:43.660 --> 00:16:49.700
 a lot of churches really struggle with the idea of, of a dichotomy, you know, that, I mean,

00:16:49.700 --> 00:16:54.440
 for, for many years, it was simplified, do one, do one, do one strategy and do that very

00:16:54.440 --> 00:17:03.000
 well. And, but just the reality of where we are today is people don't trust often the one

00:17:03.000 --> 00:17:09.120
 large thing. It needs to be decentralized. It needs to be empowering. It needs to be infused

00:17:09.120 --> 00:17:13.560
 with friends and individuals where there is trust because they're not going to trust those,

00:17:13.660 --> 00:17:20.080
 those organizations like they once did. I joke in a blog post I wrote recently, I was like,

00:17:20.080 --> 00:17:26.460
 pastor, congratulations. Your seminary degree is not trusted as much as Google and friends.

00:17:26.700 --> 00:17:31.440
 Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's funny. Like I even, I had, there's a friend of mine,

00:17:31.480 --> 00:17:35.120
 he's a pastor in Alabama. I'll reference Alabama again in a second, but pastor, a friend of mine

00:17:35.120 --> 00:17:39.900
 in Alabama texted me and he's like, you see, when you don't work for a church, you can say stuff

00:17:39.900 --> 00:17:44.300
 like that. When you work for a church, that's a quick way to get you fired. So yeah, yeah.

00:17:44.300 --> 00:17:49.860
 That's what it is. Speaking of Alabama. Hey, we got Chris, Chris is in here. Hey, Chris from

00:17:49.860 --> 00:17:55.440
 subsplash watching from Alabama. And I've got Rob Seibottom who is all the way in England. So we got

00:17:55.440 --> 00:18:02.820
 multiple continents engaging with us here on this, by the way, we got our altar live thing figured out.

00:18:02.820 --> 00:18:09.480
 So if you want to jump in, head over to the church digital's altar live platform, just in the web

00:18:09.480 --> 00:18:15.280
 browser, type the church digital.altarlive.com. You can jump in into the show. It's going to look

00:18:15.280 --> 00:18:19.660
 the same thing as it does here. You can engage. We've got some people in there already. I'll be

00:18:19.660 --> 00:18:24.640
 taking questions. If there's questions, you can drop it in the chat there and altar live and we'll be

00:18:24.640 --> 00:18:32.720
 engaging in altar live along the way. So, Hey, let me ask you this, Dr. Harris. When we look at

00:18:32.820 --> 00:18:39.500
 at D church. Now I, I hesitate to ask this because I don't want to offend anybody, but from a

00:18:39.500 --> 00:18:46.460
 stereotypical perspective, do we see, do you see, and this is unscientific, but do you see any trends

00:18:46.460 --> 00:18:54.280
 towards age, towards race, towards economics? When you look at, at a D church person, are there any

00:18:54.280 --> 00:19:02.340
 characteristics that stand out or is it truly a blend across multiple characteristics? I, I see a blend.

00:19:02.340 --> 00:19:10.480
 Yeah. Nothing uniquely stands out about the majority of those who have, who have left as far as, as far

00:19:10.480 --> 00:19:16.860
 as demographics, the, the, the, more of the trend is the psychographics where it's your people who

00:19:16.860 --> 00:19:21.580
 volunteered a lot, people who were giving a lot, people who were, you know, it's more like their

00:19:21.580 --> 00:19:27.320
 church behavior, um, is higher percentage of people who were part of that 20% that we say is doing all

00:19:27.320 --> 00:19:31.800
 the work. That's where a large portion of the D church are coming from, according to Josh Packard in

00:19:31.860 --> 00:19:38.480
 his book from his, uh, 2015 study. So, um, so, and that was before COVID, you know, people are already

00:19:38.480 --> 00:19:44.140
 on the brink of leaving. And so when, when, when COVID happened and people started surfing or church

00:19:44.140 --> 00:19:49.520
 shopping online, um, and they were able to visit four or five different services a week, then they

00:19:49.520 --> 00:19:53.460
 either popped into one, you know, they're able to kind of shop more or, or ease or faster.

00:19:54.000 --> 00:19:58.360
 But, um, but then, and some of them try to still pop up in a tent and that's when they discovered for

00:19:58.360 --> 00:20:03.460
 them that, yeah, the, the, the format wasn't working for them, uh, that popular expression.

00:20:03.460 --> 00:20:07.760
 And like, and I think we just had to be okay with that and not take it personal. I mean, there are a

00:20:07.760 --> 00:20:12.680
 lot of pastors who are, because they, anytime we invest our lives into something, when there's a

00:20:12.680 --> 00:20:17.460
 criticism of it, we're going to take it personal. But if we can get past taking it personal and hear what

00:20:17.460 --> 00:20:23.240
 people are saying and not demonize them, not try to throw scriptures at them and accuse them of

00:20:23.240 --> 00:20:28.980
 forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, then if we can hear them, we can, we can, that will

00:20:28.980 --> 00:20:36.560
 lead us into some creativity and some innovation that will enable us to serve them and a whole nother

00:20:36.560 --> 00:20:40.800
 group that thinks just like them. And where we can offer these other expressions of church in a

00:20:40.800 --> 00:20:45.860
 multimodal context. It's not one, it's not either, or it's all of it. It's all, it's the body of Christ

00:20:45.860 --> 00:20:50.160
 in multiple expressions. And I think we just need to thank God that all these options are available

00:20:50.160 --> 00:20:56.060
 for, for, for Christians who have different lifestyles, different, um, you know, life rhythms,

00:20:56.600 --> 00:21:00.740
 you know, things like that. Um, the one model of this doesn't work for everybody all the time

00:21:00.740 --> 00:21:08.920
 anymore. Yeah. You mentioned the word listening or hearing several times in that, when you were

00:21:08.920 --> 00:21:15.800
 describing the church in a digital church, specifically kind of engaging in that, I would love an example.

00:21:15.860 --> 00:21:19.160
 Okay. I mean, can you, I don't, I don't want to drop it. Don't drop a name. Like I'm, I'm not as

00:21:19.160 --> 00:21:23.640
 interested in that, but you know, I, I just, I know in digital context, hearing and listening

00:21:23.640 --> 00:21:28.240
 is so important. It's so much more valuable to ask questions and make statements. And so

00:21:28.240 --> 00:21:31.800
 we'd love to maybe for this audience, just describe a little bit of what that,

00:21:32.160 --> 00:21:34.640
 what that can look like or has looked like through hearts like his.

00:21:35.040 --> 00:21:44.840
 Yeah. Um, okay. So, so one, um, one couple, uh, they, they had expressed to their pastor that they

00:21:44.840 --> 00:21:48.840
 were feeling like God was calling them to do a particular ministry. It wasn't necessarily

00:21:48.840 --> 00:21:54.040
 to leave the church, but to do a particular ministry. And because that whole thing kind

00:21:54.040 --> 00:21:59.400
 of blew up because again, if a pastor is thinking, Oh, you want to do something different than what we're

00:21:59.400 --> 00:22:06.120
 doing, then you automatically get put into this category of trying to be an Absalom. You're trying

00:22:06.120 --> 00:22:12.340
 to overthrow the kingdom or trying to be rogue or not submitting to authority or, or all this stuff.

00:22:12.400 --> 00:22:17.740
 And, and so, um, so several people have talked about how difficult of a conversation they had

00:22:17.740 --> 00:22:21.900
 with their leadership when they're just trying to be honest about what, what was stirring in them,

00:22:22.260 --> 00:22:26.660
 what they sensed God was wanting to do in them. And they were thinking about something where

00:22:26.660 --> 00:22:33.380
 it could add to that congregation, but there's, there wasn't a paradigm for adding to that pastor's

00:22:33.380 --> 00:22:37.660
 congregation or that, or that particular church. And so it ended up being a separation. And so they

00:22:37.660 --> 00:22:44.140
 ended up ended up leaving and they're just looking for a context like this. And so, um, and so now

00:22:44.140 --> 00:22:50.420
 part of what I've done with them and others is to kind of help, um, help with some, some wound

00:22:50.420 --> 00:22:55.660
 healing, uh, some of that stuff, because I'm like, no, God's hand is still on you. You're still

00:22:55.660 --> 00:22:59.640
 gifted. Whatever God told you to do. He hasn't changed his mind. We still need you back in the

00:22:59.640 --> 00:23:06.040
 game, but now you have an injury, right? Now you, now you've got to bandage you up and, and kind of

00:23:06.040 --> 00:23:11.520
 reaffirm, no, you did hear from God. Um, you know, all these kinds of things so they can go, okay,

00:23:11.620 --> 00:23:16.680
 I'm, I guess I'm not crazy. So let me get back in the game and do this and do ministry. But I think

00:23:16.680 --> 00:23:21.940
 if, um, if, um, and again, I'm talking about several conversations where they actually didn't

00:23:21.940 --> 00:23:25.960
 just leave. Like a lot of pastors will talk about folks just left and didn't have a conversation

00:23:25.960 --> 00:23:32.160
 because many times when they do have a conversation, it blows up. Like it just doesn't go well.

00:23:32.320 --> 00:23:36.140
 So people have learned to leave without the conversation. And then you might feel dishonored

00:23:36.140 --> 00:23:39.200
 or disrespected, but no, there's a reason why they didn't have the conversation.

00:23:40.000 --> 00:23:44.600
 Whether it's true or not, they have their own reason, but others have had the reason. I mean,

00:23:44.620 --> 00:23:50.440
 they've had the conversation, but, but they didn't, um, they didn't have it where a pastor

00:23:50.440 --> 00:23:55.760
 had listening ears to listen to what the heart of what they were saying was. Uh, they weren't trying

00:23:55.760 --> 00:23:59.920
 to leave, didn't want to go, uh, or maybe, maybe some of them did want to go, right? Some of them

00:23:59.920 --> 00:24:05.380
 did want to leave, but instead of being blessed and sent out, it just got to be this breakup and it

00:24:05.380 --> 00:24:09.540
 doesn't have to be a breakup. I mean, even a lot of church splits right now could have been church

00:24:09.540 --> 00:24:16.120
 plants if the conversation was different. Is it hard to have that conversation with somebody

00:24:16.120 --> 00:24:21.700
 where maybe, you know, maybe they, they just walked away and it wasn't healthy or it was healthy, but

00:24:21.700 --> 00:24:26.720
 you know, many times it's the conversations like there are unhealthy, there are hurt feelings.

00:24:27.100 --> 00:24:33.900
 Is it hard to have those conversations without ripping, without trashing like the, the, the church

00:24:33.900 --> 00:24:38.520
 they're leaving from? Like, how do you, how do you nuance that conversation? Yeah.

00:24:38.520 --> 00:24:41.940
 You don't want to be critical of the past. You don't want to be, and you're hearing half

00:24:41.940 --> 00:24:47.860
 of the story. So how do you, how do you do ministry without doing ill will here towards,

00:24:48.000 --> 00:24:52.680
 you know, our brothers, maybe at other churches? Sure. I, I want to provide a space where we

00:24:52.680 --> 00:24:58.480
 are, uh, we are open and honest about our experience. And maybe there was something that

00:24:58.480 --> 00:25:02.680
 was a spiritual abuse. Maybe there was something that was traumatic. Maybe there was something

00:25:02.680 --> 00:25:06.940
 that was your fault. Maybe you offended them. They've been to you, whatever. But as we move

00:25:06.940 --> 00:25:11.900
 forward, if we're going to have hearts like his, which again, is the name of our ministry,

00:25:11.900 --> 00:25:16.960
 that we want to allow the Holy spirit to dig deep into our hearts and get out whatever junk

00:25:16.960 --> 00:25:21.320
 doesn't belong there. And if we, if we have an apology that we need to, that we owe somebody,

00:25:21.480 --> 00:25:26.440
 then we need to be, you know, mature enough to have that conversation. But as we move forward,

00:25:26.440 --> 00:25:34.740
 um, we're the, uh, you, you can, you can learn from your past without trying to, um, disrespect the

00:25:34.740 --> 00:25:41.040
 people who are part of your past. Um, so, so even like last night, last night, we had our time

00:25:41.040 --> 00:25:46.300
 together and I was sharing a little bit about speaking in Orlando at the, the, you know, the

00:25:46.300 --> 00:25:53.000
 digital church, uh, workshop there and how, um, there are some people who still don't, who still

00:25:53.000 --> 00:25:58.420
 don't even think it's a legitimate expression of church. And I'm like, it's okay. I mean, I made a

00:25:58.420 --> 00:26:03.400
 post about it. You comment on that, right? Like some pastors want to argue about it is, is being as

00:26:03.400 --> 00:26:07.720
 online. Can you actually have a church online? And I said, well, some are arguing about that. Others

00:26:07.720 --> 00:26:11.760
 are wanting me to come from California to Florida to talk about it. Like then we're just going to go

00:26:11.760 --> 00:26:17.280
 with that. So I was telling the people in our fellowship last night, I said, listen, don't argue

00:26:17.280 --> 00:26:24.060
 with anyone about the legitimacy of church online or not. It doesn't matter. We all are wearing the

00:26:24.060 --> 00:26:30.180
 same Jersey. We're doing the same things. And, and it's okay. If we differ about what we think is

00:26:30.180 --> 00:26:35.680
 biblical or not, it really is. Okay. We're seeing fruit here. God's changing your lives, our lives.

00:26:35.680 --> 00:26:40.820
 And we're in context biblically. I've got a doctorate of ministry. Uh, so we're not out of

00:26:40.820 --> 00:26:43.380
 bounds here. I didn't just come off the street and be like, we're just going to make up something

00:26:43.380 --> 00:26:49.880
 else. No. And my doctor is in transformational discipleship. So, so it's not going to be an

00:26:49.880 --> 00:26:54.800
 easy conversation for anyone to try to talk to me about, about whether or not we can disciple

00:26:54.800 --> 00:27:00.360
 people online. I have a strong ecclesiology for it, a strong theology for it, biblical basis

00:27:00.360 --> 00:27:04.360
 for it. And it is what it is. And if people disagree, it's okay. So I'm talking to folks

00:27:04.360 --> 00:27:08.740
 in hearts like his and saying, don't even get into an argument about it, right? Let's say

00:27:08.740 --> 00:27:13.780
 in the spirit of unity, even with our differences, it's going to be okay. There are others who

00:27:13.780 --> 00:27:18.720
 are looking for what we have. They're looking for what we offer, invite them, plug them in

00:27:18.720 --> 00:27:21.320
 and let's see what God does. And that's, that's, that's where we're at.

00:27:21.860 --> 00:27:27.160
 Yeah. Yeah. So, so good. It's funny. Even just the heart of that, the humility of the disruptor,

00:27:27.240 --> 00:27:31.460
 it's right. Hey, like we're, we're, we're not going to argue. We're going to, we're going to,

00:27:31.620 --> 00:27:35.620
 we're going to prove it on the battlefield. We're going to look forward and, and on the,

00:27:35.620 --> 00:27:40.700
 on the mission field and how we're discipling and who we're, who we're, who we're reaching and how

00:27:40.700 --> 00:27:45.360
 we're connecting and how we're multiplying that that that's, that's the victory lap. That's the

00:27:45.360 --> 00:27:49.760
 celebration. That's what I think we're fighting towards. And even within my own team, it's,

00:27:49.860 --> 00:27:54.200
 it's encouraging, Hey, let's, let's not, let's not lean into those fights. You know,

00:27:54.200 --> 00:27:58.640
 and, and it's funny, like even talking about humble disruptors here in the, in the altar

00:27:58.640 --> 00:28:06.440
 live platform. Uh, we've got Jeff hook, who's like a CEO of a church technology company and

00:28:06.440 --> 00:28:10.960
 Jared Hughes, which we just talked about Jared. I don't know, maybe 20, 15 minutes ago. He's

00:28:10.960 --> 00:28:15.800
 in here in altar live as well. Chiming in, uh, Jeff hook, actually, he said something that,

00:28:15.800 --> 00:28:21.980
 that I just, I want to give a shout out to here. Um, I think many in Europe left the church

00:28:21.980 --> 00:28:28.320
 because of the religious wars between the Catholic church and the Protestants years ago. And Europe

00:28:28.320 --> 00:28:34.380
 is largely would, would be a post Christendom, um, environment. Now people are leaving the American

00:28:34.380 --> 00:28:40.940
 church because of cultural wars in this country that are not showing the love of Christ. Um,

00:28:40.940 --> 00:28:46.720
 that's interesting. That's maybe a little poignant. Um, and, and he, he can say that it's his right.

00:28:46.720 --> 00:28:54.220
 Uh, so you can, you can email Jeff. No, I'm kidding. Don't, you know, not to me. Uh, but it is,

00:28:54.280 --> 00:28:59.860
 it is interesting as we've seen just so much, even within culture, you know, I, I, it's funny,

00:28:59.860 --> 00:29:05.240
 like I hesitate to even use the word Trump in like sentence, not even talking about just even the word

00:29:05.240 --> 00:29:10.060
 Trump, because I just, I don't want to like stir up something and rip off the bandaid one way or the

00:29:10.060 --> 00:29:14.580
 other. Like it's, it's not even political side either way. It's, it's an unsafe word because of how

00:29:14.580 --> 00:29:18.720
 either side's going to react to it. And so, you know, we're seeing that tension. You've been,

00:29:18.760 --> 00:29:23.260
 you've been a pastor in that environment. Well, let me ask this question, kind of even pulling that

00:29:23.260 --> 00:29:31.500
 same thread as a pastor currently, what are you doing to maybe guard yourself from, or your church

00:29:31.500 --> 00:29:38.740
 from that? So like you're reaching out to de-churched people. What are you doing to prevent people in

00:29:38.740 --> 00:29:43.680
 your church from becoming de-churched off of maybe even some of the stuff that Jeff's talking about

00:29:43.680 --> 00:29:48.600
 hear about just the different cultures, uh, and moving away from the church here in America?

00:29:48.860 --> 00:29:57.520
 Yeah. Well, a couple of things. One is, um, I am consistently preaching the gospel that like

00:29:57.520 --> 00:30:05.360
 every week it's, it's, it's God's message of love and forgiveness, uh, through Jesus Christ. That's,

00:30:05.360 --> 00:30:11.160
 that's literally been every message, every different topics, but pointing to the same thing. And,

00:30:11.160 --> 00:30:18.380
 and here's why, um, so, so, so definitely strong on the, on the gospel truth, but also talking about

00:30:18.380 --> 00:30:23.280
 topics specifically. So we're going to talk about political division and we're going to talk about

00:30:23.280 --> 00:30:27.720
 ethnic division. We're going to talk about that through the lens of the gospel, because in this

00:30:27.720 --> 00:30:32.640
 context is an opportunity to disciple people through these particular changes. And, and here's,

00:30:32.940 --> 00:30:37.700
 here's one benefit I have that a lot of pastors don't. There are a lot of pastors who, I mean,

00:30:37.760 --> 00:30:41.520
 they know who they're going to vote for this past election, right? They know their stance on,

00:30:41.580 --> 00:30:46.660
 on vaccines for, or against it. They know all that, but most of them did not feel comfortable

00:30:46.660 --> 00:30:52.580
 saying their particular stance from the platform, because you have people in your ministry who are

00:30:52.580 --> 00:30:57.820
 on both sides of that wall as well. Um, well, you know, of all these different issues. And so

00:30:57.820 --> 00:31:02.860
 they're trying to pastor people through that and trying to honor everyone's, everyone's thing,

00:31:02.860 --> 00:31:09.000
 but they didn't say, so some of the congregation members wanted some strong stance one way or the

00:31:09.000 --> 00:31:13.200
 other. And if they didn't get that strong stance on a political issue, they left to another church

00:31:13.200 --> 00:31:18.360
 that got that, that, that was promoting that. But many pastors felt uncomfortable because it would

00:31:18.360 --> 00:31:23.080
 mess up with the money, right? When people leave, they take their money, they take their volunteer

00:31:23.080 --> 00:31:28.360
 position, all that kind of stuff. And no one see their, their congregation fall apart over something

00:31:28.360 --> 00:31:35.240
 that really is not central to who we are as, as a church. Well, I don't have, I don't, I'm not,

00:31:35.660 --> 00:31:39.340
 I don't, we don't take up offerings and stuff. There's a giving link that people want to give,

00:31:39.400 --> 00:31:45.260
 but I don't, my point is, I don't, I'm not tied to needing people to give, to maintain the ministry

00:31:45.260 --> 00:31:52.540
 the way others are. I don't have a staff or a building or those kinds of bills. So I don't really

00:31:52.540 --> 00:31:59.160
 have to navigate around that for those reasons, right? And I'm not saying everyone did for those

00:31:59.160 --> 00:32:04.900
 reasons, because like I said, it's just tough to pastor people when you got blue and red in your

00:32:04.900 --> 00:32:13.420
 congregation, pro and anti-vaccine in your congregation and all that. But it all comes down to the bottom

00:32:13.420 --> 00:32:19.440
 line of losing some of your budget if you make the mistake and folks take off. And I don't have that.

00:32:19.440 --> 00:32:26.760
 So I'm going to, I'm going to talk about some stuff from a biblical perspective and, and, but I'm not

00:32:26.760 --> 00:32:32.500
 going to pick sides necessarily either. So, yeah. Yeah. You know, I remember, I remember when Jesus was

00:32:32.500 --> 00:32:39.000
 talking about being sensitive to, to speaking gospel truths because of budget concerns. And, you know,

00:32:39.060 --> 00:32:43.540
 I remember there was a time that Paul was, was chastising the, I'm kidding, of course.

00:32:43.620 --> 00:32:50.460
 Yeah. Well, see, here's the thing. Like if you, if I know that if I talk about this particular issue

00:32:50.460 --> 00:32:56.100
 on a Sunday, I'm going to, it's not, it's not, maybe not, I'm not afraid of talking about it. Maybe

00:32:56.100 --> 00:33:02.580
 I'm not afraid of talking about it. What I'm afraid of is losing budget enough to where I'm going to have

00:33:02.580 --> 00:33:09.220
 to let a staff member go. Right. So where, cause that was already fuzzy for a lot of churches anyway,

00:33:09.340 --> 00:33:15.140
 because of the natural decline in, in, in giving and things like that. And so it's not worth it to,

00:33:15.140 --> 00:33:22.280
 to launch out with a particular stance one way or the other for some, for some pastors, because the

00:33:22.280 --> 00:33:27.400
 bottom line would be another hard decision that they'd have to make. And it probably wouldn't affect

00:33:27.400 --> 00:33:31.880
 them. If they do budget cuts, the pastor's salary is not the first one on the list. It's usually some

00:33:31.880 --> 00:33:36.480
 others. And so they didn't want to have to be, you know, to take that risk just for something that

00:33:36.480 --> 00:33:43.240
 they could, you know, move past in a different way. So anyway, have you actually ever met Jared

00:33:43.240 --> 00:33:47.760
 Hughes? Have you guys had a conversation yet? No, I've just seen him online, him and his wife.

00:33:48.400 --> 00:33:53.960
 It's funny. Like Jared, Jared is blowing up in the chat. This is my life. This is my blood. This is

00:33:53.960 --> 00:33:58.780
 my heartbeat. I love this. Like, cause he's, I just, I've had so many conversations with him

00:33:58.780 --> 00:34:06.960
 that have sounded just like this. And so I just, I find this comical how it's coming together. Jared

00:34:06.960 --> 00:34:13.520
 will be on next week and we're having a conversation about Bivo Kovo, which is, I know is, is another,

00:34:13.520 --> 00:34:19.780
 you know, heartbeat of yours. And so I don't want to, want to pull from that. And so, yeah, this,

00:34:19.880 --> 00:34:27.820
 this is, this is solid. Um, let me ask this question. So I, some of my, uh, church leadership

00:34:27.820 --> 00:34:32.600
 brethren, some of my, uh, maybe their friends, maybe they're just people I know, you know, I've,

00:34:32.600 --> 00:34:38.600
 I've heard them say, Hey, doing digital is a cop out. Going to a digital church is, is, is a cop

00:34:38.600 --> 00:34:44.620
 out. These people need to, you know, insert some aggressive term about coming back to the,

00:34:44.780 --> 00:34:49.940
 to the body, not run away into a digital environment or something where they're, they're copping

00:34:49.940 --> 00:34:55.900
 out. Um, like how do you respond in those situations? What, what does that, what does that

00:34:55.900 --> 00:35:05.860
 look like for you? Yeah, I, I, I would dive deeper and say a cop out from what? Um, like

00:35:05.860 --> 00:35:11.360
 and instead of being able to go back to the body, the physical body, the incarnate body of

00:35:11.360 --> 00:35:17.820
 Christ doing this digitally, they need to address their, their, their sins and their issues within

00:35:17.820 --> 00:35:22.720
 the church that they had the issues with. And instead now what you're saying is, Hey, go

00:35:22.720 --> 00:35:28.620
 to a different model, a different expression where a, maybe we're not addressing the, the

00:35:28.620 --> 00:35:33.340
 larger character flaw that may be within the individual. And number two, they're addressing

00:35:33.340 --> 00:35:37.940
 a digital expression of church instead of physical, which may or may not even be legitimate.

00:35:38.320 --> 00:35:42.460
 I mean, let's be honest. I'm not even really making this model up. Like there are people that,

00:35:42.540 --> 00:35:48.040
 that would think this and that, that have said this to me. And so that kind of flies against

00:35:48.040 --> 00:35:51.600
 some of the stuff that you're talking about. What, what's the response to some of those

00:35:51.600 --> 00:35:56.740
 situations? Sure thing. Whether it's, whether a person is in an in-person congregation or

00:35:56.740 --> 00:36:02.660
 a digital congregation, the biblical principles of handling offense is still there. And so even

00:36:02.660 --> 00:36:08.420
 when, um, if I'm talking to a person in our congregation, our fellowship, or someone has

00:36:08.420 --> 00:36:11.920
 had an office with somebody like, you still need to deal with that, you, that, that that's

00:36:11.920 --> 00:36:18.220
 a biblical principle. And so I will kick back and say that the digital, maybe, um, that the

00:36:18.220 --> 00:36:25.580
 digital space, uh, is not a place to escape biblical conflict resolution.

00:36:26.280 --> 00:36:26.680
 Okay.

00:36:27.180 --> 00:36:31.720
 That is, it's not that, but I would also say to that person that some people came to their

00:36:31.720 --> 00:36:34.860
 in-person church because they did the same thing for another in-person church.

00:36:35.480 --> 00:36:40.620
 So that's not a slam against being in digital space. That same thing happens before digital

00:36:40.620 --> 00:36:44.460
 was a thing. People popping around because they were escaping offense. They didn't like this

00:36:44.460 --> 00:36:50.820
 pastor or they, whatever. So that, so as long as that person who's concerned about digital

00:36:50.820 --> 00:36:56.260
 space being a cop out is also that's that concern with people in their congregation who may have

00:36:56.260 --> 00:37:00.980
 joined their congregation because of offense somewhere else, if they're tackling that, then

00:37:00.980 --> 00:37:05.180
 I appreciate your concern in this digital space too. But if you're not tackling that, then don't

00:37:05.180 --> 00:37:11.180
 try to use that as something to downplay, uh, the, the digital space. Um, so, so then the other,

00:37:11.180 --> 00:37:17.040
 there's another part to what you were saying, um, and I was going to try to write it down. So,

00:37:17.160 --> 00:37:23.340
 but I didn't want to lose that. Um, tell me again, because it was a really good point. I didn't

00:37:23.340 --> 00:37:29.840
 really thought back until responding to that, that thought. Um, so it was, it's, it's either somebody

00:37:29.840 --> 00:37:35.200
 not addressing maybe a character flaw or an issue within their own psyche. Uh, but then also looking

00:37:35.200 --> 00:37:40.240
 at digital as a substandard. Okay. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Okay. So here is the big piece that I want

00:37:40.240 --> 00:37:48.360
 everyone listening to this, um, uh, presentation, this interview to, to learn. You cannot put every

00:37:48.360 --> 00:37:55.240
 digital church under a broad blanket because all of them are doing things differently and you don't

00:37:55.240 --> 00:38:00.740
 know what they're doing in there. So let me, let me unpack by saying this. Many people, when they think

00:38:00.740 --> 00:38:09.780
 of, uh, they don't know the difference between church online and an online church. Okay. So church

00:38:09.780 --> 00:38:17.380
 online is you taking your Sunday worship experience and broadcasting it online as is. Right. And the

00:38:17.380 --> 00:38:26.100
 same spectator model of in-person sitting in a seat, watching what's on stage is just transferred to the

00:38:26.100 --> 00:38:31.780
 computer where you're sitting on your couch, watching everything on a screen. That's, that's,

00:38:31.780 --> 00:38:37.560
 that's for some people that's church online. Some churches saw that and said, is that now we want

00:38:37.560 --> 00:38:44.960
 to create a more active and engaging experience for the people who are watching online. And so they

00:38:44.960 --> 00:38:51.560
 dived into that and created some other, other things there, but online church is not just taking

00:38:51.560 --> 00:38:58.040
 something from, uh, uh, a sanctuary and just broadcasting it. It is more engaging, more

00:38:58.040 --> 00:39:02.420
 interactive. So when people don't understand what really is digital church and all the different

00:39:02.420 --> 00:39:07.120
 expressions of it, then they think that it's the same as online church where people are just sitting

00:39:07.120 --> 00:39:12.660
 back watching what's going on. And that is not what digital churches do, at least not what effective

00:39:12.660 --> 00:39:17.800
 healthy ones do. The reality is that whether you're in the digital space or in-person space,

00:39:17.800 --> 00:39:23.920
 you've got to be intentional about creating community either way. And, and there are,

00:39:24.280 --> 00:39:28.320
 so there are ways to do it in person and there are ways to do it online, but just because someone

00:39:28.320 --> 00:39:33.740
 is online, it doesn't mean that you're not creating community and building relationships and having

00:39:33.740 --> 00:39:39.220
 accountability and having transparency and openness and honesty and praying about legitimate,

00:39:39.280 --> 00:39:45.700
 legitimate needs. Um, anyone can tell you that by being in person, that alone, that has not solved

00:39:45.700 --> 00:39:50.120
 their community issues, that hasn't solved their accountability issues. People can intend every

00:39:50.120 --> 00:39:55.180
 single week in person and you still not know them and they still not know you, but they can go

00:39:55.180 --> 00:40:00.600
 through the motions. But so there, so there has to be something that engages that person with an

00:40:00.600 --> 00:40:05.860
 interact and interpersonal react, uh, interactions, small groups or whatever, but you still got to be

00:40:05.860 --> 00:40:11.680
 intentional about building relationships in person. And the same thing is, is online, but some people

00:40:11.680 --> 00:40:16.420
 that don't understand it. So I, I don't, again, I don't argue with people if they just want to argue,

00:40:16.420 --> 00:40:20.800
 but if they want to learn about what we're actually doing, me and others who are doing this well,

00:40:21.120 --> 00:40:26.780
 I'm happy to explain it to them that, that there, there is more of a, of a dialogue and interaction

00:40:26.780 --> 00:40:31.700
 that happens. So that's why we do things on zoom. Now we are, our meeting is on zoom and we stream to

00:40:31.700 --> 00:40:37.260
 Facebook because we want an open dialogue and, and chance to talk instead of just responding to,

00:40:37.260 --> 00:40:44.560
 um, responding to comments, which we did for a while, but it added to the, uh, added to the dynamic

00:40:44.560 --> 00:40:48.920
 of the interactions and the prayer and the accountability and the questions. I mean, it's, it's,

00:40:49.020 --> 00:40:54.520
 it's quite a community. It's quite a community. And one person actually said, being in hearts like his

00:40:54.520 --> 00:40:59.340
 helped me see what I was missing from my in-person experience. Like it's, if you do it right,

00:41:00.240 --> 00:41:05.380
 it can be done well and people can grow and mature and experience relationships and accountability

00:41:05.380 --> 00:41:11.940
 and community and biblical church. But if you don't do it right, then they won't just the same

00:41:11.940 --> 00:41:16.660
 as if you don't do in-person, right. That's the reality across the board.

00:41:17.160 --> 00:41:22.020
 Definitely agree with that. And, and creating that community, using the content to create the

00:41:22.020 --> 00:41:26.520
 community. It was funny. That's one of the reasons why we were doing the podcast. Uh, you know, we,

00:41:26.640 --> 00:41:31.380
 I was like, Hey, let's do this live. Why not? Uh, you know, let's, let's throw it in. Let's create

00:41:31.380 --> 00:41:36.080
 a community center around altar live. And, and we're going to continue to push that over, uh, through

00:41:36.080 --> 00:41:42.100
 here with the church digital.altarlive.com. Uh, and, and plus the fact now that it's live,

00:41:42.100 --> 00:41:46.380
 you never know actually what's going to happen. And so, Hey, uh, Dr. John Harris,

00:41:46.380 --> 00:41:51.040
 I'm going to go ahead and bring Jared Hughes into the conversation because I want the two

00:41:51.040 --> 00:41:56.240
 of you to actually like meet, uh, because in many ways you two are very passionate about

00:41:56.240 --> 00:42:00.420
 the same sort of things. And so Jared, man, thanks for jumping on here. I know we recorded

00:42:00.420 --> 00:42:05.160
 a conversation earlier and that'll be on in a couple of days, but I know that you're passionate

00:42:05.160 --> 00:42:12.140
 about this de-churched audience as, as well. And so maybe just a little second here and, and

00:42:12.140 --> 00:42:18.240
 respect to Dr. John here, but Jared, like what y'all's take through, through, um, uh, a hope

00:42:18.240 --> 00:42:23.980
 hope city church. How are you, um, uh, addressing and maybe reaching out to the de-church crowd?

00:42:24.880 --> 00:42:31.080
 Yeah, I think it's, you know, uh, like John is saying, it's the realization that just because

00:42:31.080 --> 00:42:37.660
 the person has left, left the church doesn't mean they have left Jesus or the church as a

00:42:37.660 --> 00:42:42.960
 whole, you know, uh, they have maybe moved on from a, an in-person setting, traditional

00:42:42.960 --> 00:42:48.480
 setting. Um, and, and they still have Jesus. They still have people. They still have a gospel.

00:42:48.640 --> 00:42:53.760
 They still have a great commission, but you know, we, we are a, we are a funny species,

00:42:53.860 --> 00:43:01.260
 you know, as humans, you know, uh, God's image bearers, so to speak. And, and who knows,

00:43:01.340 --> 00:43:07.000
 there's lots of reasons, um, some good, some bad, some ugly, some sad, um, why people move

00:43:07.000 --> 00:43:13.720
 on, um, from that type of setting. Uh, and I think the folks that we're reaching, um, a lot

00:43:13.720 --> 00:43:19.060
 of them are that I've enjoyed this conversation so far. I'm like, oh my goodness, there's more

00:43:19.060 --> 00:43:23.480
 of us out there. Wow. You know, we, you know, and it's, it's just amazing to see what the

00:43:23.480 --> 00:43:29.880
 Holy spirit is doing in the body of Christ. Um, and I love, uh, uh, Dr. John, what you said

00:43:29.880 --> 00:43:34.900
 about, you know, the difference between church online and the online church. Um, that is, that's

00:43:34.900 --> 00:43:41.060
 a great point because it's not the same. It's two different, two different things. Um, as Jeff

00:43:41.060 --> 00:43:47.820
 knows, we, you know, we've been pastoring for 25 years in suburb, suburban America, urban

00:43:47.820 --> 00:43:56.120
 and the suburbs or in a, in a rural communities. And, uh, uh, we, we were had just planted a

00:43:56.120 --> 00:44:01.880
 church in Bothell, Washington, our third church plant that we have been graced to do. And right,

00:44:01.960 --> 00:44:06.780
 right before the pandemic hit, we had just started getting our feet underneath us and we, we switched

00:44:06.780 --> 00:44:14.040
 to digital like most, most did. And it took off and it opened our eyes to, wow, what is going

00:44:14.040 --> 00:44:18.880
 on out here in the world, you know, and start deep diving into all of that. And of course,

00:44:18.960 --> 00:44:25.660
 Angel Craig has been, has been a big mentor to us as well. And, you know, we had, you know,

00:44:25.660 --> 00:44:31.980
 uh, about a year ago, I was offered a building, uh, church building, debt-free building to continue,

00:44:31.980 --> 00:44:38.200
 you know, to bring our in-person to go back and our team decided, you know, um, no, we

00:44:38.200 --> 00:44:42.720
 don't want to do that. So we turned that building down the property down and continued online.

00:44:42.960 --> 00:44:48.620
 And, um, that's not for everybody, right? It is for us. And it's really opened our eyes

00:44:48.620 --> 00:44:54.440
 to, you know, again, just on faith. Well, social media loans, 3.7 billion people are active users

00:44:54.440 --> 00:45:00.560
 on a monthly basis. I mean, what an audience that the church has been giving, a great and

00:45:00.560 --> 00:45:04.320
 effective door, you know, so to speak, has been opened to the church. So it's been exciting.

00:45:05.180 --> 00:45:09.380
 There's a, I would love both your takes on this. There, there's a, I don't want to call it a

00:45:09.380 --> 00:45:14.400
 movement. Maybe it's an idea, maybe it's a practice, but, uh, you know, a lot of times when you talk

00:45:14.400 --> 00:45:22.280
 with planters, um, church planters, uh, they're, they're more interested in, in reaching the,

00:45:22.280 --> 00:45:27.640
 the lost, which may sound bad because I think the lost people that don't know Jesus, the

00:45:27.640 --> 00:45:32.400
 atheists, the agnostics, I think, I think they do need Jesus, but there's an intentionality.

00:45:32.400 --> 00:45:36.720
 And I use that word strongly. There's an intentionality towards going through towards

00:45:36.720 --> 00:45:43.500
 that. And not necessarily going towards the church, maybe because perceived baggage or other

00:45:43.500 --> 00:45:49.040
 issues. Um, like maybe just to help both of you, Dr. John, you go first, but kind of what's,

00:45:49.220 --> 00:45:54.400
 what's your response? What's your take, um, towards that? How would you advise a planter that may be

00:45:54.400 --> 00:46:00.280
 thinking, Hey, the D church has got too much baggage that I don't want to spend time investing

00:46:00.280 --> 00:46:07.840
 into. I'm better going after somebody that's purely lost. Yeah. Um, it's great to go after,

00:46:08.080 --> 00:46:14.100
 after the lost, um, because I mean, that's, that's the mission of the, of the gospel. Um,

00:46:14.100 --> 00:46:19.400
 but when you do that, you're, you know, only you're going to be praying for some leaders to help you.

00:46:19.960 --> 00:46:25.600
 And one of the interesting things about the D church is that sure, there are some that have left

00:46:25.600 --> 00:46:31.760
 wounded, hurt, offended, really immature and how they handled stuff and all that. But the majority

00:46:31.760 --> 00:46:38.640
 of the ones who are the duns, according to Josh Packard, are the ones who are the mature leaders

00:46:38.640 --> 00:46:44.560
 who are serving, giving and faithful. They're the ones that, so we're, we're, we're, we're,

00:46:44.740 --> 00:46:50.340
 so the in-person expression is missing some of those, um, more mature people who, again,

00:46:50.460 --> 00:46:55.360
 just left because the model didn't work. And sometimes offense, sometimes

00:46:55.360 --> 00:47:02.760
 bad conversations, sometimes whatever was the, um, the impetus or the stimulus to that awakening.

00:47:02.760 --> 00:47:08.760
 Like this is not fitting me anymore. And they, and they left. And so I think, and so part of

00:47:08.760 --> 00:47:15.380
 what I want to do in Hearts Like His is to gather them and then deploy them because many of them are

00:47:15.380 --> 00:47:20.920
 skilled. They're, I mean, competent in a lot of different areas. They, they, and many of them were,

00:47:21.000 --> 00:47:25.000
 they were the workforce when they were in the building. They can still be the workforce,

00:47:25.120 --> 00:47:31.780
 in the church through digital space. So I'm providing a context in digital space to gather

00:47:31.780 --> 00:47:38.300
 them all together, but I want to deploy them and I want to help them launch in person, like in their

00:47:38.300 --> 00:47:43.440
 home. So it's not like we're just going to be digital just until Christ comes back. Uh, even

00:47:43.440 --> 00:47:48.520
 though I think that could be okay, but I want to use a digital space to help create living room space.

00:47:48.520 --> 00:47:54.320
 Like that, that's the, one of the big end goals for me. And so it's the, it's a variety of places for

00:47:54.320 --> 00:47:58.880
 those who wanted to come, get healed to go, okay, what you experienced was not good. That wasn't the

00:47:58.880 --> 00:48:03.580
 church. That wasn't the gospel. Let's dive into that. Get you back on track with where you are with,

00:48:03.640 --> 00:48:09.380
 with God and what His plan is for your life, namely to become like Jesus. And then let's see,

00:48:09.460 --> 00:48:13.080
 what are you supposed to be doing? Where are you supposed to be going? Where are you, and let's,

00:48:13.080 --> 00:48:18.000
 and let's go out. And, uh, and the cool thing about targeting them is that they don't want to

00:48:18.000 --> 00:48:24.660
 reproduce why they left. They don't, but if they don't learn something else, then that's still their

00:48:24.660 --> 00:48:30.140
 default. And by, and by default, they'll still do it. Kind of like, I want to be like my mom or dad.

00:48:30.200 --> 00:48:33.320
 And then you end up being like your mom or dad. Cause that's all, you know, you have to learn

00:48:33.320 --> 00:48:36.840
 something different. And so on hearts like his, they're learning something, they're learning

00:48:36.840 --> 00:48:40.360
 something different. They're learning about forgiveness. They're learning about grace.

00:48:40.500 --> 00:48:46.320
 And so peeling off these layers, um, of religion so that when they go back out there, they're going

00:48:46.320 --> 00:48:51.000
 out with a different message and it's not red tape and a bunch of hoops. It's, it's Christ and

00:48:51.000 --> 00:48:56.680
 him crucified. Yeah. Shane Higgins is in, uh, the ultra live, uh, environment right now,

00:48:56.920 --> 00:48:59.900
 jumping up and down at your digital space that grows.

00:48:59.900 --> 00:49:06.040
 Oh, same. Yeah. That's, that's, that's a great line. And I think he's going to start to own that

00:49:06.040 --> 00:49:11.860
 through, uh, only one church. So very cool there. Uh, Jared, um, man, what, what's your take here

00:49:11.860 --> 00:49:17.880
 with, uh, planters maybe struggling with the focus to, to identify and reach out to de-churched,

00:49:17.880 --> 00:49:22.140
 um, is, is, are they, or what, what are they missing? How would you coach them on that?

00:49:23.280 --> 00:49:29.680
 Well, I think it's, uh, depending on what kind of circle you're a part of or where you're coming out

00:49:29.680 --> 00:49:35.160
 of, um, it's, it's fixing the notion that the church is not for the church,

00:49:35.160 --> 00:49:46.380
 you know, um, story after story, uh, passionate planters, visionary planters who, you know,

00:49:46.440 --> 00:49:51.220
 once you're here, the church is not for you anymore, you know, so get to work, you know,

00:49:51.680 --> 00:49:55.260
 your seed is not, that, that seed is not for you to fill any longer. You know, you're,

00:49:55.480 --> 00:50:00.960
 the church is for those who don't know Jesus over a period of 20 or 30 years.

00:50:00.960 --> 00:50:04.020
 You're hearing this over and over again, over and over again, over and over again, the church

00:50:04.020 --> 00:50:08.380
 is not for me, the church is not for me, but who's it for, you know, it's a theological thing

00:50:08.380 --> 00:50:13.900
 ultimately, you know, um, I, I think it's, it's, you know, I love what Dr. John is saying.

00:50:13.980 --> 00:50:20.340
 It's like, if you get a de-churched person healed in whatever shape or form, they're,

00:50:20.440 --> 00:50:25.960
 you know, they're the ones who give and tithe and serve and will do ministry and equip the

00:50:25.960 --> 00:50:30.880
 saints and make disciples. And it's like, uh, those, those, you know, really, if you think

00:50:30.880 --> 00:50:35.120
 about when you're planting, you know, some of those people you're planting with, I wouldn't

00:50:35.120 --> 00:50:39.620
 necessarily say they're de-churched, but they're from a church somewhere and they're leaving

00:50:39.620 --> 00:50:43.520
 that church to become part of your team. And they're not de-churched, so to speak, but

00:50:43.520 --> 00:50:47.660
 they're, they're leaving somewhere. And some of those people that, that join your team,

00:50:48.040 --> 00:50:52.960
 um, they're hurt. They could be one step away from being, coming to de-churched out of,

00:50:52.960 --> 00:50:59.900
 out of just, you know, gifts and talents, not being utilized, um, again, to be a person,

00:50:59.900 --> 00:51:04.460
 uh, that, you know, their ministry didn't fit the vision and the model of that particular

00:51:04.460 --> 00:51:09.560
 church organization that they were a part of. And they, they, they get shipwrecked sometimes.

00:51:09.560 --> 00:51:14.820
 Um, uh, again, not wanting to plant with hurt people, because hurt people tend to hurt people

00:51:14.820 --> 00:51:21.960
 in the long run, but healing people also end up healing people. And so I think, uh, it's realizing

00:51:21.960 --> 00:51:30.960
 that, um, not again, being a person who got stuck in that, you have somebody that comes who's de-churched,

00:51:31.060 --> 00:51:36.000
 delusioned, you know, and also like, oh, that's a little too much baggage. We're too young. We're too,

00:51:36.080 --> 00:51:41.020
 we're too, uh, you know, we're like a sack and we're a new planted thing. We don't want anybody to come in

00:51:41.020 --> 00:51:47.220
 and ruin this, this evening to get, you know, started. And man, we just kick ourselves. We just,

00:51:47.280 --> 00:51:52.620
 we just end up hurting ourselves in the long run, you know, because again, we're not, you know,

00:51:52.740 --> 00:51:57.280
 I guess, again, you're reproducing like what you don't want to become and you end up becoming

00:51:57.280 --> 00:52:01.840
 that and you're like, oh, how did we get here? And I have some thoughts over this.

00:52:02.840 --> 00:52:07.400
 Totally. Totally see that. Thanks. Thanks for sharing that. Um, Hey, I, I did want, I wanted

00:52:07.400 --> 00:52:12.400
 to dig into one question and, and this is going to be, this may be off topic. Now let me ask

00:52:12.400 --> 00:52:15.200
 this up front. Jared, are you, are you military background?

00:52:16.840 --> 00:52:23.360
 I am. Yeah. What, what are you? You can't hear it yet? I can hear it. I know. I don't

00:52:23.360 --> 00:52:28.060
 want to assume he's, he's a Marine, but if I've ever seen anybody that was a Marine, it's going

00:52:28.060 --> 00:52:33.440
 to be Jared Hughes. No, I'm a, I'm an army, uh, infantry veteran. Okay. All right. Our army

00:52:33.440 --> 00:52:37.540
 infantry and Dr. John Harris, you were, you were what when you, with your service, you were

00:52:37.540 --> 00:52:41.560
 a chaplain. I'm the people that army calls for help when they get in trouble. Okay.

00:52:43.640 --> 00:52:48.860
 We'll roll with it. Uh, Jared, we'll make sure you get Dr. John on speed dial and, uh,

00:52:48.860 --> 00:52:54.640
 we'll be good moving forward. No, we love it, man. We look, all, all of us, we work together,

00:52:54.700 --> 00:52:59.480
 but we sure have fun messing with each other. Awesome. Love it. Hey, so actually I want to

00:52:59.480 --> 00:53:04.220
 ask both you guys this question. And so I love the D church conversation. We're going to wrap

00:53:04.220 --> 00:53:08.200
 on that, but I, I'm going to, I'm going to open up a little bit here. Uh, and just even

00:53:08.200 --> 00:53:12.660
 the situation we are in Ukraine and Iraq, it's created a unique perspective that I think

00:53:12.660 --> 00:53:17.040
 may actually reach into some other people. And I'm actually really glad I got two, you

00:53:17.040 --> 00:53:24.300
 know, military guys coming in here. So I've got a troll. Um, I, Jeff Reed personally have,

00:53:24.360 --> 00:53:29.540
 have a troll in my life. And, uh, this guy has been very active in my life. Um, he was

00:53:29.540 --> 00:53:36.760
 a former student back in the day. Um, he shows up maybe every three months where he'll crash

00:53:36.760 --> 00:53:42.180
 some live broadcast that I'm doing, say some misquote, some Bible thing that is totally

00:53:42.180 --> 00:53:47.180
 out of context and completely wrong. And he's getting the message completely backwards. And

00:53:47.180 --> 00:53:51.640
 so, um, yeah. And so, like he's, like I said, he shows up every three months and disappears.

00:53:52.380 --> 00:53:57.680
 Um, I had, I had a conversation with him and, uh, he, I mean, literally he called me one day

00:53:57.680 --> 00:54:02.520
 and, and, and, and we just had an opportunity to really, to, to dive in, open up and just

00:54:02.520 --> 00:54:07.580
 really transparency, him, him talking, uh, long story short, dude's carrying some baggage

00:54:07.580 --> 00:54:14.000
 from military. And, um, and, and, and so like we were in a good place. Um, all this stuff

00:54:14.000 --> 00:54:21.120
 in Ukraine started and, and, and, and it was a trigger for him, I think. And now I've seen

00:54:21.120 --> 00:54:26.400
 him go back to some of that, um, re-engaging in that. And so I kind of set all that story

00:54:26.400 --> 00:54:32.300
 up to get to this point, you know, seeing a lot of this unfold, I got to imagine there's

00:54:32.300 --> 00:54:38.020
 military people out there, similar to my, my friend, the troll, literally my friend, the

00:54:38.020 --> 00:54:44.120
 troll, who, who are, that bandage is getting ripped off. All that stuff they've been packaging

00:54:44.120 --> 00:54:50.180
 in from, from the mess of, of war, from the mess of, of military that's, that's ripped

00:54:50.180 --> 00:54:58.060
 off. As, as pastors, as church leaders, as, as friends on social media, how do we, how do

00:54:58.060 --> 00:55:03.260
 we help that? How do we speak to that? How do we serve that need? What, what do you advise

00:55:03.260 --> 00:55:08.220
 somebody like me and somebody like, maybe, maybe as we're listening to this, we're picturing

00:55:08.220 --> 00:55:12.940
 people, maybe even in our own lives, uh, that are, or maybe struggling with this. What, what

00:55:12.940 --> 00:55:16.400
 do we do here? Um, uh, Jared, would you like to kick us off?

00:55:17.540 --> 00:55:24.300
 Well, I think, you know, my active duty life is very short-lived, um, though I've been around

00:55:24.300 --> 00:55:29.800
 the military, my, I was a fourth generation person in the military, but my entire family,

00:55:30.480 --> 00:55:39.040
 my wife's entire family's military. Um, I have a son that's a special forces guy now. Um, so

00:55:39.040 --> 00:55:43.880
 this is a big conversation right now. Um, my brother just, uh, retired after 30 years

00:55:43.880 --> 00:55:50.460
 as a Marine tank officer. Um, he actually led, he was the company commander that led the tank

00:55:50.460 --> 00:55:57.400
 battalion into Afghanistan. Um, so we, we were having lots of conversations regarding this.

00:55:57.400 --> 00:56:08.400
 I think, um, um, it's connecting, um, and let's say this way, uh, combat veterans, um, special combat

00:56:08.400 --> 00:56:13.780
 veterans, you know, um, who've been around it now for two decades, connecting them with the right

00:56:13.780 --> 00:56:21.300
 people to have those conversations. Um, for the reason I use my brother for example is I've, I've never

00:56:21.300 --> 00:56:28.760
 experienced combat, you know, I was in and out before anything even happened. Um, the conversation

00:56:28.760 --> 00:56:35.060
 with my brother though, who has, who's, uh, been in more deployments than I think one person should

00:56:35.060 --> 00:56:44.920
 be in, um, who will see more combat in his life than, you know, than a lot. Um, who's lost troops

00:56:44.920 --> 00:56:53.780
 under his command, who's, you know, done the war stuff, you know, um, connecting veterans with people

00:56:53.780 --> 00:57:01.080
 like that, who love Jesus, who are following Christ. Um, they can't, they have a unique, unique

00:57:01.080 --> 00:57:09.260
 perspective that, uh, like I for sure don't have outside of, you know, uh, my, my military

00:57:09.260 --> 00:57:17.400
 career, um, short career as it was, um, it's not really a lot to say, but I think, um, yeah,

00:57:17.400 --> 00:57:23.320
 if we can have a network of men and women who, um, have experienced those things they're experiencing.

00:57:23.320 --> 00:57:29.900
 And I think it's also, then as a father, you know, my son again is in the military. I have, uh,

00:57:29.900 --> 00:57:35.000
 three nieces and nephews. I just, my youngest, one of my nephews just finished first recon

00:57:35.000 --> 00:57:41.820
 in school. I have a niece who's on her way to become a, uh, a, uh, uh, uh, helicopter pilot.

00:57:41.920 --> 00:57:47.720
 I have another one who's, uh, they're all officers. Um, you know, so it's around, we're discussing

00:57:47.720 --> 00:57:53.160
 it a lot, you know, and then you see what's going on that all that we've gone through, you know, as,

00:57:53.260 --> 00:57:59.280
 as a world and as a country where, you know, I think for a lot of veterans, it's the automatic

00:57:59.280 --> 00:58:05.420
 talk of, Hey, we need to get, we need to get troops over there. It's like, man, that is a bandaid that

00:58:05.420 --> 00:58:14.420
 you're, it's a wound that is being ripped apart. Yeah. I'm not really sure how much to say maybe

00:58:14.420 --> 00:58:20.800
 Dr. John can speak even more into that, but yeah, it's definitely not an easy, not an easy thing to

00:58:20.800 --> 00:58:28.440
 navigate for sure. Dr. John, what's your take? Yeah, I was, uh, I was a chaplain in the air force.

00:58:28.580 --> 00:58:33.640
 And so when, even when I was active duty, um, I was the, uh, you know, confidant for a lot of

00:58:33.640 --> 00:58:39.600
 people, um, as they're processing through different things. Um, and, and a lot of the things happening

00:58:39.600 --> 00:58:48.040
 now, um, militarily, um, as it relates to war and stuff. Yeah. I have my own triggers. Uh, last year

00:58:48.040 --> 00:58:52.640
 when we pulled out of Afghanistan and Marines got killed, I had a major, major problem with that.

00:58:52.640 --> 00:59:01.160
 I was in Afghanistan in 2010. Um, and, and part of why I had problems with it was, you know,

00:59:01.260 --> 00:59:05.800
 and it didn't matter. And here's what the reality is there was no really nice, easy way to leave

00:59:05.800 --> 00:59:11.320
 Afghanistan like ever. So it was likely that something like that, you know, could happen,

00:59:11.400 --> 00:59:14.820
 but then there are, there are details about that. I just have problems with. Here's my point

00:59:14.820 --> 00:59:21.460
 as a former chaplain. And as a pastor, I'm also getting calls from other people who still want

00:59:21.460 --> 00:59:26.980
 to process out loud their experience of this while I'm personally processing some of my stuff.

00:59:27.420 --> 00:59:34.220
 Okay. What's a gospel centered view of our departure from Afghanistan? What's a gospel centered view

00:59:34.220 --> 00:59:40.560
 of the Ukraine, Russia situation? Um, and it, and it really is tough. It really is tough. There's part,

00:59:40.620 --> 00:59:44.560
 there's times I'm like, man, we should just gone in and crushed all that. Right. And then other times

00:59:44.560 --> 00:59:49.680
 I'm like, you know, but the reality is I don't like war. I was, I was in the hospital in Iraq and

00:59:49.680 --> 00:59:55.640
 Afghanistan. I've, I've seen it. I've seen it. I've felt the ground shake when bombs and mortars were

00:59:55.640 --> 01:00:01.440
 coming in. Like I've been there. It's, and so it's not something that people who have been a part of

01:00:01.440 --> 01:00:09.480
 are a big fan of, but on the other hand, sometimes, um, we, we do see where it might be necessary,

01:00:09.480 --> 01:00:18.220
 um, to, to prevent a larger evil or larger fallout and things like that. So, um, so the, the, even when

01:00:18.220 --> 01:00:22.320
 I was in the air force, right, the balance, I remember talking to a guy, talking to a guy,

01:00:22.400 --> 01:00:27.060
 we were out there, we were in Korea. We did this little worship thing out on the strip. And so

01:00:27.060 --> 01:00:32.100
 there are all these clubs and bars and all this kind of stuff. And I saw, I saw a guy up, uh, like

01:00:32.100 --> 01:00:37.320
 three stories up leading out the window. Um, they had, it opened up the window. So we were worshiping

01:00:37.320 --> 01:00:41.080
 and singing. And so they, Oh, I saw the window open. Like there's some intrigue to what we're doing.

01:00:41.320 --> 01:00:45.140
 So you're drinking his beer. So I told folks, I'm like, I'm gonna go up and see him and talk

01:00:45.140 --> 01:00:50.500
 with him real quick. So I wanted up there all the time I've been to a bar that was just a bar and not

01:00:50.500 --> 01:00:57.500
 like Applebee's. So I went up there and, uh, I'm sitting at talking to him and he says, he asked me a

01:00:57.500 --> 01:01:06.180
 question. So he's a, he's an A-10 pilot. He says, what does God think about me being able to have

01:01:06.180 --> 01:01:12.420
 the capacity to kill 10 million people with what I carry on my air? My, my, my jet.

01:01:15.460 --> 01:01:17.100
 Did they teach you that in seminary?

01:01:17.880 --> 01:01:18.320
 Nope.

01:01:20.660 --> 01:01:31.960
 So, so balancing Christianity with a direct in order, because as a pilot, if he's given that

01:01:31.960 --> 01:01:37.620
 order to drop that payload, wherever you're dropping it, it's, it's over. Yeah. So we talk

01:01:37.620 --> 01:01:42.720
 about that a little bit, but here's the thing. This is what I would say, Jeff, to you and this,

01:01:42.840 --> 01:01:47.180
 this troll that you apparently asked God to remove three times that he said, my grace is sufficient

01:01:47.180 --> 01:01:58.920
 for you. I am, I'm not going to remove it. Um, is the, listen, listen, whether you have military

01:01:58.920 --> 01:02:04.420
 background or not, when someone comes with some stuff like that, the first thing you want to do

01:02:04.420 --> 01:02:10.220
 is just listen and ask questions. So why do you feel, what is it about what you've experienced that

01:02:10.220 --> 01:02:15.640
 makes this so difficult? Sound like the bandaid is being ripped off. What wound is opening up for you?

01:02:16.140 --> 01:02:21.580
 Listen, don't try to debate politics. That's not what it's about because you're going to lose that,

01:02:21.940 --> 01:02:25.460
 right? Those of us who are over there on the ground, we have a different view than those of y'all

01:02:25.460 --> 01:02:29.840
 who watched it from TV. It's just, it's just, so you're not, you're not going to win that,

01:02:30.340 --> 01:02:37.220
 but what, why is it, what, what makes this hard for you? What, what, why is it that the bandaid

01:02:37.220 --> 01:02:41.180
 getting ripped off or what, what do you not like about this the most? What hurts the most? What

01:02:41.180 --> 01:02:44.660
 bothers you the most? What would you like to see happen? See, it's just questions. It's just

01:02:44.660 --> 01:02:50.980
 questions. And that is a ministry end of itself. So even if people have not, have no military

01:02:50.980 --> 01:02:58.520
 background, nothing at all, they can oftentimes feel unqualified to, to step into that space for that

01:02:58.520 --> 01:03:04.560
 military person, but everyone can listen and everyone can ask questions and just help that

01:03:04.560 --> 01:03:09.400
 person process out loud. You'd be surprised how well that can, that can be actually ministered to,

01:03:09.540 --> 01:03:17.080
 to an individual. Yeah, that, that, that is so good. Um, this guy called me on a Facebook messenger

01:03:17.080 --> 01:03:21.700
 out of the blue, maybe, maybe three months ago. Like, you know how you can like voice dial and

01:03:21.700 --> 01:03:27.200
 messenger. Uh, he took a shot, he took a shot at me and I replied back. I was like, Hey, if you

01:03:27.200 --> 01:03:32.040
 really feel that way, here's how we're going to solve that problem together, come join me. And, uh,

01:03:32.040 --> 01:03:39.400
 and, and so he, um, um, he called me and just, I mean, literally I was funny. I was actually

01:03:39.400 --> 01:03:45.080
 like at a conference and was supposed to go be with a bunch of people and whatever, it's some

01:03:45.080 --> 01:03:49.820
 networking. And I was like, I'm going to have to stand outside. I was in Kansas city and

01:03:49.820 --> 01:03:55.200
 in like a short sleeve shirt. And it was January and always December. And it was freezing. And

01:03:55.200 --> 01:04:00.540
 so I'm outside in a short sleeve shirt in December in Kansas city, freezing, talking to my troll

01:04:00.540 --> 01:04:05.960
 and just, man, what's going on in your life? I haven't seen you in 20 years. Like what,

01:04:06.020 --> 01:04:12.520
 what's the, and just starting to kind of unravel through that. And, uh, you know, just even in

01:04:12.520 --> 01:04:16.540
 my own life, I was like, okay, we're on top of this. We're good. And it's fun. It's just,

01:04:16.620 --> 01:04:20.840
 I was, it was like, right when the war, when the war hit, you know, and then, and it just

01:04:20.840 --> 01:04:27.160
 this, this whole other level. And so, I mean, it's, it's, um, it's, it's horrific. It's,

01:04:27.260 --> 01:04:32.480
 it's an awesome opportunity. Uh, it's, it's, it's honestly, I look at it as a privilege

01:04:32.480 --> 01:04:37.980
 where, Hey, I've got this guy that's, that's, that's struggling to figure out who Jesus is,

01:04:37.980 --> 01:04:44.020
 but he's actually willing to like talk with me. And so I have this opportunity to, to engage

01:04:44.020 --> 01:04:48.680
 him where I know historically he's kind of been shut down with some others. And so, you

01:04:48.680 --> 01:04:54.060
 know, love that, uh, told me Jesus too, you know, and oftentimes we, you know, those digital

01:04:54.060 --> 01:04:58.760
 ministry and both these guys know, like, you don't, don't, don't click that kick out button.

01:04:59.140 --> 01:05:04.140
 Let, let them go. Let, let the crowd, let the crowd speak into it. The crowd will correct

01:05:04.140 --> 01:05:09.120
 the situation. You need to care for the individual. And, uh, and so that there's so much opportunity

01:05:09.120 --> 01:05:14.180
 we can to, to engage and kind of help, which is I've heard so many, so many stories, even

01:05:14.180 --> 01:05:18.600
 in virtual reality, uh, of where there was a, there was a Satanist that was coming in and

01:05:18.600 --> 01:05:24.440
 trolling some VR churches. Uh, her, her literal name was, um, oh my gosh, I'm blanking on the

01:05:24.440 --> 01:05:32.620
 name here. Um, it was, uh, queen, uh, Satan's queen or queen of hell. So something queen of

01:05:32.620 --> 01:05:37.840
 hell, Alice queen of hell. And, uh, and so literally like family background of Satanists,

01:05:37.840 --> 01:05:43.500
 uh, and through, uh, relationships that was built, uh, maybe nine months down the road,

01:05:43.560 --> 01:05:48.620
 she accepted Christ. Uh, and now she's actively serving, uh, in, in several of the VR churches,

01:05:48.620 --> 01:05:55.320
 actually helping, uh, multiply ministry into, uh, VR chat. So, and it's just, it was, she went

01:05:55.320 --> 01:06:00.620
 from, uh, you know, Alice queen of hell to like Alice in the palace and just a complete,

01:06:00.620 --> 01:06:07.480
 um, uh, uh, uh, spiritual change as, as a result of kind of what's happening. And so anyway,

01:06:07.480 --> 01:06:12.320
 that is such a digression away from where we were, but thank you for even just entertaining

01:06:12.320 --> 01:06:16.700
 me for a couple of minutes as I kind of opened up myself here to a couple of military guys.

01:06:16.700 --> 01:06:24.020
 So, so thank you for that. This has been a solid conversation on D church. Um, and you

01:06:24.020 --> 01:06:28.360
 know, even maybe the troll somehow fits into that. You can kind of wedge that in a listening

01:06:28.360 --> 01:06:33.080
 audience, however you want. I love this live format. We're going to do this more. And so,

01:06:33.080 --> 01:06:35.240
 uh, go ahead. Speak to me, sir.

01:06:35.240 --> 01:06:40.340
 Like you said, this might tie in. I, in Mark chapter five, there's a man who had

01:06:40.340 --> 01:06:46.380
 thousands of demons, right? He had legion. And, um, and he, what's interesting is he ran

01:06:46.380 --> 01:06:51.480
 to Jesus as he ran to Jesus and fell down at his feet. And then, then the demon spoke out

01:06:51.480 --> 01:06:57.020
 and said, you know, please don't mess with us. Right. And so, uh, but what's interesting

01:06:57.020 --> 01:07:02.000
 is that's a, that's a really clear picture about sometimes what happens to us is that people

01:07:02.000 --> 01:07:08.500
 who are hurting people who are tormented, they run to church or they're running to Jesus.

01:07:08.980 --> 01:07:14.280
 And when they get there, the demon speaks out and we get offended by what the demon is saying,

01:07:14.280 --> 01:07:21.600
 but Jesus saw the man behind the torment. He saw the man behind legion. And so he dealt

01:07:21.600 --> 01:07:25.280
 with, he was able to separate the two. He dealt with legion. And the next thing you know, the

01:07:25.280 --> 01:07:30.220
 man is clothed and in his right mind. And I think that's just part of it. And not just him,

01:07:30.280 --> 01:07:35.960
 but even Peter, right. When, when, when Peter said out of his mouth was, uh, this shall never

01:07:35.960 --> 01:07:41.280
 happen to you. And Jesus says, Satan, get behind me. Right. He says, Satan, he was able to identify

01:07:41.280 --> 01:07:45.860
 Satan and distinguish that from who, from who Peter was. And I think the same thing, when we

01:07:45.860 --> 01:07:51.640
 have these people who come up that there are termed of these trolls or whatever, um, I think we got

01:07:51.640 --> 01:07:58.720
 to review them through a different lens, um, and just see, ask out who are they? Like I hear what

01:07:58.720 --> 01:08:03.140
 they're saying. I hear the words coming out. I don't want to respond to the words. I want to

01:08:03.140 --> 01:08:08.180
 respond to either the hurt, the brokenness, the torment, the whatever that's behind the, open up a

01:08:08.180 --> 01:08:14.000
 door to the enemy to use these words through their mouths. And I, and so, so it was, so the D church,

01:08:14.260 --> 01:08:17.260
 yeah, they're going to come, they're going to come hurt. They're going to come broken,

01:08:17.260 --> 01:08:23.760
 but we can separate what happened to them from who they are, the value that they have as a son or

01:08:23.760 --> 01:08:28.740
 a daughter of God. And that's, that's game changing. It's game changing as life changing.

01:08:29.180 --> 01:08:33.820
 And, and I, we see this, the spirit of God, uh, work in miraculous ways in those contexts.

01:08:35.620 --> 01:08:40.460
 That was incredibly well said. And, and way to actually take a tangent and, and, and tie it.

01:08:41.080 --> 01:08:42.660
 I'll help you out there, girl.

01:08:43.340 --> 01:08:49.920
 You're a seminary trained, Hey, you know, that 20 minute, you know, uh, uh, tangent that I just did.

01:08:50.120 --> 01:08:52.180
 No, we're going to tie it. We're actually gonna make it the main point.

01:08:52.540 --> 01:08:58.720
 I meant to do that the entire time at that. That was, Hey, Hey gentlemen, thank you very much for,

01:08:58.760 --> 01:09:03.280
 for jumping on the show. Hey, here's what I'm going to do. Like if, if you are still watching out

01:09:03.280 --> 01:09:07.000
 there on social, I see we got a number of people on social, uh, we're going to open up the ultra

01:09:07.000 --> 01:09:11.000
 life platform and we're going to start to engage into some conversations over there. We're going

01:09:11.000 --> 01:09:15.900
 to open up the lobby mode here in, in, uh, as soon as I wrap up, here's the question I want us to

01:09:15.900 --> 01:09:20.040
 take away from this. Um, our churches, whether you're a physical church that's doing digital

01:09:20.040 --> 01:09:25.700
 ministry, a physical church, a digital church, a meta church, you know, the, the environment for

01:09:25.700 --> 01:09:30.600
 this one does, doesn't matter because all of us have the opportunity to engage, uh, whether a big

01:09:30.600 --> 01:09:34.660
 church or a small church or a church plant, we all have an opportunity to engage, uh, with, uh,

01:09:34.660 --> 01:09:40.880
 with the church. Two questions. What are you doing now? And maybe what opportunities, uh, do you need

01:09:40.880 --> 01:09:46.200
 to engage in? What should you be doing? Where's God leading you to go? And so we're going to wrap

01:09:46.200 --> 01:09:51.720
 the plane. If anybody's watching on social swing over to the church, digital.alterlive.com. You can

01:09:51.720 --> 01:09:56.440
 see the link on the video. We'd love to connect with you over there. And if you're in alter live,

01:09:56.440 --> 01:10:02.620
 as soon as I wrap up, I'll click the button and, uh, we'll swing over into the lobby, uh, and engage

01:10:02.620 --> 01:10:07.760
 with that. How are you currently viewing the church? If you're listening on podcast, ask yourself this

01:10:07.760 --> 01:10:12.180
 and talk with your leadership. How are you currently viewing the church? How are you serving the church?

01:10:12.360 --> 01:10:19.080
 And maybe what opportunities do you have a head to do something different? So for, for Dr. John,

01:10:19.180 --> 01:10:25.520
 uh, and, uh, and Jared, Jared, thank you for jumping in. This is Jared next week. Uh, and so it's,

01:10:25.520 --> 01:10:30.180
 it's a one, two punch with that. Love it. Hey, this is Jeff with the church, digital, digital church

01:10:30.180 --> 01:10:35.420
 network and a bunch of other really cool stuff. Thanks for jumping on the podcast here. We'll see

01:10:35.420 --> 01:10:42.880
 you next week live. And we do this next, uh, Thursday, uh, 3 PM Eastern y'all have a good day.