WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.900 You want to do this, but you don't want to quit your job. 00:00:03.000 --> 00:00:04.180 You have a job full-time. 00:00:04.340 --> 00:00:06.440 I'm like, I'm feeling called to do this, 00:00:06.840 --> 00:00:08.180 but I don't know how to raise money. 00:00:08.340 --> 00:00:09.580 I don't want to be full-time in this. 00:00:09.640 --> 00:00:10.420 I love my career. 00:00:10.900 --> 00:00:13.540 You know, you're the perfect person. 00:00:13.660 --> 00:00:15.180 Welcome to the Church Digital Podcast. 00:00:15.980 --> 00:00:17.640 Through this podcast, we'll talk about 00:00:17.640 --> 00:00:19.960 the technological innovations within the church. 00:00:20.440 --> 00:00:22.120 But more than TED for Tech itself, 00:00:22.340 --> 00:00:24.460 we'll address deeper questions. 00:00:25.080 --> 00:00:27.180 Is disciple-making possible digitally? 00:00:27.880 --> 00:00:30.200 How should we approach the digital mission field? 00:00:31.000 --> 00:00:33.700 Can a biblically grounded church operate in digital space? 00:00:34.440 --> 00:00:36.740 Oh, and where does the metaverse fit into all this? 00:00:37.580 --> 00:00:39.260 Whether you're a big or small church, 00:00:39.460 --> 00:00:41.720 an established church, or a startup church plant, 00:00:42.460 --> 00:00:45.100 the Church Digital's goal is to help churches like yours 00:00:45.100 --> 00:00:47.380 learn to be a multiplying church, 00:00:48.000 --> 00:00:49.380 digitally and physically. 00:00:50.120 --> 00:00:50.860 Our heart? 00:00:51.340 --> 00:00:53.700 That churches like yours will discover a newfound focus 00:00:53.700 --> 00:00:57.060 on disciple-making that will revolutionize your church. 00:00:57.340 --> 00:01:00.380 And now, here's your host, Jeff Reed. 00:01:00.840 --> 00:01:03.640 All right, hey, welcome to episode 209. 00:01:03.740 --> 00:01:06.180 Hey, this is Jeff with the Church Digital 00:01:06.180 --> 00:01:07.360 and the Church Digital Podcast, 00:01:07.540 --> 00:01:08.780 Digital Church Network, 00:01:08.900 --> 00:01:10.240 and a whole bunch of other things 00:01:10.240 --> 00:01:12.880 that involve church and technology, man. 00:01:12.920 --> 00:01:14.940 It is super great to be here with you today. 00:01:15.000 --> 00:01:18.240 I'm excited about this episode and this conversation 00:01:18.240 --> 00:01:20.660 as we're dealing, as we're digging into 00:01:20.660 --> 00:01:26.380 bivocational and co-vocational approaches in ministry. 00:01:26.380 --> 00:01:29.080 And so, I've got Jared Hughes in the conversation here. 00:01:29.220 --> 00:01:32.180 Jared Hughes is lead pastor of Hope City Church, 00:01:32.180 --> 00:01:35.140 and we're going to get into that here in just a minute. 00:01:35.140 --> 00:01:37.440 As a quick tease, as a quick suggestion, 00:01:37.880 --> 00:01:40.720 if you are not part of Digital Church Network's family, 00:01:40.860 --> 00:01:42.000 our online community, 00:01:42.420 --> 00:01:44.120 I would love for you to get into that. 00:01:44.260 --> 00:01:49.100 So, you can go to famfam.digitalchurch.network. 00:01:49.220 --> 00:01:54.320 That's fam, F-A-M, as in the first three letters of family.digitalchurch.network. 00:01:54.400 --> 00:01:59.800 It's this great online community we've set up for digitally friendly people, 00:02:00.060 --> 00:02:02.380 digitally ministry friendly people. 00:02:02.920 --> 00:02:04.340 Can people be friendly in ministry? 00:02:04.380 --> 00:02:04.940 I think so. 00:02:05.020 --> 00:02:05.920 I think they can be. 00:02:06.000 --> 00:02:07.500 But we're all coming together. 00:02:07.660 --> 00:02:08.680 I hope so. 00:02:08.740 --> 00:02:09.460 Yeah, I hope so. 00:02:09.520 --> 00:02:12.380 If not, maybe we're not doing it right. 00:02:12.480 --> 00:02:14.120 But there's an opportunity for us to come together, 00:02:14.540 --> 00:02:15.440 learn from each other, 00:02:15.560 --> 00:02:17.200 be the Paul for somebody's Timothy, 00:02:17.380 --> 00:02:19.520 be the Timothy for somebody's Paul, 00:02:19.860 --> 00:02:22.260 and learn from each other along the way. 00:02:22.340 --> 00:02:26.520 So, check it out at famfam.digitalchurch.network. 00:02:26.600 --> 00:02:27.040 Okay, cool. 00:02:27.380 --> 00:02:31.960 Hey, listen, I'm excited about bringing Jared into this conversation 00:02:31.960 --> 00:02:34.400 and learning along the way here. 00:02:34.480 --> 00:02:37.280 So, we're totally having this conversation centered around Bible Covo. 00:02:37.660 --> 00:02:41.260 But before we do that, Jared, man, let's dig in a little bit here. 00:02:41.740 --> 00:02:43.940 Tell us a little bit about what you're doing through Hope, 00:02:44.020 --> 00:02:45.320 what you and your wife, 00:02:45.400 --> 00:02:47.520 what you're doing together through Hope City Church. 00:02:47.780 --> 00:02:50.440 Yeah, my wife and I co-lead pastor Hope City Church Live. 00:02:51.080 --> 00:02:56.400 It's a multi-platform social media church community. 00:02:57.180 --> 00:03:00.280 Currently, we're on Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, 00:03:01.300 --> 00:03:02.340 the faithful platform. 00:03:02.920 --> 00:03:08.800 My wife just launched a women's gathering on faithful network platform. 00:03:09.120 --> 00:03:09.200 Yeah. 00:03:09.600 --> 00:03:11.340 Anyways, on YouTube. 00:03:11.500 --> 00:03:13.040 YouTube right now is pretty much, 00:03:13.580 --> 00:03:17.380 we probably have not been utilizing that to the best of our ability. 00:03:17.380 --> 00:03:18.900 It's mostly just hosting stuff there. 00:03:19.500 --> 00:03:21.540 And we'll be ramping that up. 00:03:22.300 --> 00:03:24.140 We will launch. 00:03:24.380 --> 00:03:27.340 We're looking at launching into the metaverse, the meta church. 00:03:29.200 --> 00:03:30.360 That's the plans. 00:03:30.520 --> 00:03:36.000 We're thinking maybe the fall of 2022 might be the beginning of 2023, 00:03:36.000 --> 00:03:39.660 as we're vetting and learning more about that particular space. 00:03:40.480 --> 00:03:44.080 We've been in full-time ministry together since 1997. 00:03:44.560 --> 00:03:46.040 Started off as youth pastors. 00:03:47.160 --> 00:03:50.120 And we have been church planters, multi-campus pastors. 00:03:51.120 --> 00:03:57.100 And we've pastored churches in the suburbs, in the rural community, in the urban community. 00:03:57.580 --> 00:04:02.040 From small churches, we pastored in and led to mega churches we've pastored on staffs with. 00:04:02.400 --> 00:04:06.020 So we have a pretty wide background in church ministry. 00:04:06.700 --> 00:04:09.640 And we've been married for 30 years, together for 33 years. 00:04:10.000 --> 00:04:12.060 Two grandkids, two adult children who are married. 00:04:12.500 --> 00:04:14.720 And loving life out here in Des Moines, Iowa. 00:04:14.720 --> 00:04:16.580 Des Moines, Iowa. 00:04:16.700 --> 00:04:17.500 That's fascinating. 00:04:17.760 --> 00:04:20.420 I was just at the Exponential Conference. 00:04:20.600 --> 00:04:24.500 And I apologize for this example right here. 00:04:24.620 --> 00:04:26.620 But it was actually kind of funny. 00:04:27.460 --> 00:04:29.900 So I was leading this breakout room. 00:04:30.100 --> 00:04:33.840 And the guy who was talking was from a major urban area. 00:04:34.960 --> 00:04:40.780 And so he was talking about what church was like and what the community was like in the major urban areas. 00:04:40.860 --> 00:04:41.720 I don't remember where it was. 00:04:41.720 --> 00:04:43.380 Maybe it was like Dallas or something. 00:04:44.000 --> 00:04:48.380 And he's like, man, it's completely different than the people who live in Des Moines, Iowa. 00:04:48.680 --> 00:04:50.720 And it kind of was like this awkward moment. 00:04:50.820 --> 00:04:51.720 Everybody was like, oh. 00:04:51.940 --> 00:04:55.000 And somebody in the room was like, what's wrong with Des Moines, Iowa? 00:04:55.200 --> 00:04:56.660 I live in Des Moines, Iowa. 00:04:57.300 --> 00:04:59.480 It was just all sorts of awkward. 00:04:59.800 --> 00:05:02.280 So, man, I don't want to call you out from Des Moines. 00:05:02.640 --> 00:05:05.600 But like you've had a couple stops here just recently. 00:05:05.700 --> 00:05:10.080 Used to be in Cali or the Pacific Northwest. 00:05:10.080 --> 00:05:11.720 Chris, where were you just maybe within the past year? 00:05:12.240 --> 00:05:13.160 Oh, well, geez, man. 00:05:13.200 --> 00:05:17.700 For the past, we were in Kirkland, Washington, Kirkland, Seattle, the Seattle suburb area. 00:05:17.920 --> 00:05:20.240 We had been there for three years. 00:05:20.340 --> 00:05:20.840 We planted it. 00:05:20.960 --> 00:05:22.660 We went on staff of a church. 00:05:22.820 --> 00:05:29.760 We actually, high-level view, we had a two-church location in a southwest Washington area. 00:05:30.800 --> 00:05:36.460 And we merged those two churches with a four-campus church out of Redmond, Washington. 00:05:37.300 --> 00:05:46.700 Kind of merged together for like a, you know, more like a together, better is together type of thing to reach kind of the region area. 00:05:47.080 --> 00:06:01.200 We then took over one of their campuses as a campus pastor in Bothell, Washington, and then ended up taking that group of people and launching a new church called, at the time, Canvas Church in 2018 as a church plant. 00:06:02.240 --> 00:06:05.540 And then our feet started getting underneath us. 00:06:06.000 --> 00:06:13.740 And as we all have experienced the 2020 pandemic, and we lost our location, and that's when we had switched. 00:06:13.840 --> 00:06:17.580 We had actually started on Facebook, doing some stuff on Facebook. 00:06:18.040 --> 00:06:26.060 When we launched our church in 2018, our two sons are in the tech world and had encouraged us to start using more social media. 00:06:27.100 --> 00:06:35.380 And I reluctantly started doing that in 2000, I think 2017, 2000, yeah, 2000, yeah, in 18, 17, when we launched. 00:06:35.780 --> 00:06:38.380 And we reluctantly like, okay, I guess. 00:06:38.540 --> 00:06:41.240 It wasn't, you know, Facebook to me was just something to connect with people. 00:06:41.480 --> 00:06:42.420 It wasn't a big thing. 00:06:42.880 --> 00:06:50.600 Yeah, thanks for what we did, because that was God's way of preparing us, as we deep dived into that in 2018, for the pandemic that happened. 00:06:51.160 --> 00:06:57.660 And then we relaunched and rebranded Canvas Church as a digital-only church in 2021. 00:06:59.120 --> 00:06:59.380 Yeah. 00:06:59.840 --> 00:07:00.820 Yeah, 2021. 00:07:01.440 --> 00:07:02.220 That's Hope City Church. 00:07:02.340 --> 00:07:07.680 So you've been doing digital-only a year or two here with Hope City. 00:07:09.240 --> 00:07:12.800 And any regrets, any, like, strengths, joys? 00:07:13.060 --> 00:07:15.720 Like, so you're a couple years into this digital-only church. 00:07:15.920 --> 00:07:22.880 There's a handful of them, realistically, maybe 50 legitimate, serious expressions of church. 00:07:24.060 --> 00:07:27.180 What's been some of the early findings, lessons? 00:07:27.280 --> 00:07:28.320 How are you feeling about this thing? 00:07:28.600 --> 00:07:30.060 Yeah, I mean, we love it. 00:07:30.060 --> 00:07:34.800 You know, for us, we're part of the Free Methodist Church denomination. 00:07:35.020 --> 00:07:36.480 We're at the Pacific Northwest Conference. 00:07:37.460 --> 00:07:51.100 And right before, yeah, in October of 2020, we were offered a building, a debt-free location in Bothell, right downtown Bothell, Washington, from our conference. 00:07:51.660 --> 00:07:54.220 Beautiful property, beautiful building. 00:07:54.580 --> 00:07:56.480 I mean, the perfect thing. 00:07:56.540 --> 00:08:02.880 We gave away a building a few years ago to that church we merged with out of Castle Rock, Washington. 00:08:03.080 --> 00:08:04.480 We had a beautiful facility in there. 00:08:04.720 --> 00:08:07.640 We gave all the assets and gave away them when we merged. 00:08:08.000 --> 00:08:10.460 And it was almost like God returning that to us. 00:08:10.720 --> 00:08:21.780 And at the time, our superintendent, Michael Forney, he asked, he said, hey, we're going to give you, you know, we think I'm 90% we're moving in that direction. 00:08:22.100 --> 00:08:23.060 And he asked a question. 00:08:23.180 --> 00:08:23.960 We were having lunch. 00:08:24.500 --> 00:08:38.580 And he said, my only hesitation is, do you feel that if we did this, it would stop what God is doing through, at the time, Canvas Church, which became Hope City Church, would it stop your momentum digitally? 00:08:39.120 --> 00:08:40.780 Because I want you to think about that and pray on that. 00:08:41.800 --> 00:08:48.900 And so my wife and I, we sat down, we prayed about it, we sat together with our team, and we all decided that, yeah, we wanted to stay digital. 00:08:49.940 --> 00:08:55.800 And so we turned down the, you know, multimillion-dollar facility and the land and the, you know, that. 00:08:55.800 --> 00:09:07.340 And I think that was a big step for us, you know, to step away from, you know, just traditional, I mean, just how you do church, you know, for the most part, for many people. 00:09:08.120 --> 00:09:12.660 And I think that was the first big step, you know. 00:09:13.360 --> 00:09:18.760 And then when we rebranded as Hope City Church Live, I think that was for us. 00:09:19.860 --> 00:09:21.620 Yeah, we're going to go all in and see what happens. 00:09:22.080 --> 00:09:23.980 And we really believe God has opened that door. 00:09:25.400 --> 00:09:38.500 I think the biggest thing that we've learned over the last couple of years is the intentionality of those following is really heavy on them to follow, you know. 00:09:39.820 --> 00:09:45.480 And when people connect, like when people connect with us, they're connected, you know. 00:09:45.960 --> 00:09:53.160 They're, you know, so to speak, vetting us, vetting us for a long, long time or watching for a long time and not engaging. 00:09:53.160 --> 00:09:58.860 You don't even, many times are on these social media, on our social media platforms, you know, the algorithms are the algorithms. 00:09:59.020 --> 00:10:08.020 The way it's set up is, you know, you don't know what, I mean, as we all know, all of us that are doing this, you know, you might say 3,000 views. 00:10:08.180 --> 00:10:13.820 But that doesn't really mean, I mean, it's great, I mean, it's views, but it's, but it may say 30 views. 00:10:13.940 --> 00:10:15.740 And we see 30 views and we feel bad. 00:10:15.840 --> 00:10:21.480 It's almost like back in the in-person church days, you know, if a lot of people were there, we're happy, nobody's there, we're sad. 00:10:21.480 --> 00:10:27.180 I think what we're finding is that, you know, you might only have 30 views. 00:10:27.260 --> 00:10:31.960 You might only have one like or one heart or something, these engagement tools that we look for. 00:10:32.900 --> 00:10:37.020 But I tell you what, that's representing a heck of a lot more people than we realize. 00:10:37.260 --> 00:10:38.920 I mean, a lot more people than we realize. 00:10:39.580 --> 00:10:48.440 And I think that is for us when somebody connects with us and we're able to have a personal conversation and communicate with them. 00:10:48.760 --> 00:10:52.940 But we usually discover that they've been watching for not just weeks, usually it's months. 00:10:54.080 --> 00:10:57.420 And I think that's been the biggest eye-opener for us. 00:10:57.480 --> 00:11:01.200 So you turned down a building to focus on digital ministry. 00:11:01.740 --> 00:11:02.780 That is correct. 00:11:03.440 --> 00:11:06.940 You know, I got to tell you, I've heard that story a couple times now. 00:11:08.280 --> 00:11:10.540 And ironically, they're all up in the Pacific Northwest. 00:11:10.800 --> 00:11:14.580 And I'm wondering if it's like the same denomination that's doing it. 00:11:14.620 --> 00:11:15.220 I'll have to ask. 00:11:15.360 --> 00:11:16.340 I don't think into it now. 00:11:16.640 --> 00:11:17.180 Could be. 00:11:17.360 --> 00:11:18.500 Yeah, it'd be interesting to find out. 00:11:18.640 --> 00:11:19.560 It would be interesting. 00:11:19.660 --> 00:11:23.360 It's the same freaking building they're trying to get rid of, but they can't get rid of it. 00:11:24.500 --> 00:11:26.220 Everybody wants to do digital ministry. 00:11:26.900 --> 00:11:27.480 Oh, my God. 00:11:27.480 --> 00:11:28.280 That would be really. 00:11:28.600 --> 00:11:30.520 I don't think that's true, but that would be so funny. 00:11:30.920 --> 00:11:31.760 Poor building. 00:11:31.920 --> 00:11:33.400 Nobody loves the building anymore. 00:11:33.880 --> 00:11:34.260 Oh, man. 00:11:34.260 --> 00:11:35.340 It's a great location, too. 00:11:35.480 --> 00:11:36.760 I tell you, it's nice. 00:11:36.900 --> 00:11:37.960 It's a great location. 00:11:38.340 --> 00:11:40.200 Right in the heart of downtown Bothell. 00:11:40.360 --> 00:11:41.960 Just right up from the downtown area. 00:11:42.460 --> 00:11:43.800 I mean, literally walking distance. 00:11:43.800 --> 00:11:45.140 And a great neighborhood. 00:11:45.320 --> 00:11:45.820 Great community. 00:11:47.760 --> 00:11:48.400 That's great. 00:11:48.520 --> 00:11:59.260 So by doing a digital church, a lot of times, and I've heard you talk about this, where a lot of the people that are engaging in the digital church are called to Christ. 00:11:59.260 --> 00:12:00.000 They're disconnected. 00:12:00.240 --> 00:12:02.020 These are not Christians. 00:12:02.020 --> 00:12:08.720 And so, you know, you're teaching and you're educating at a very entry level position. 00:12:08.720 --> 00:12:16.980 Or even things like tithing is not commonly done in these digital and in these meta church spaces. 00:12:16.980 --> 00:12:28.040 And so, you know, paying the bills, paying the mortgage, even operating costs for the church a lot of times at a digital church is questionable. 00:12:28.300 --> 00:12:30.660 And even even the smaller expenses that are available. 00:12:30.660 --> 00:12:34.240 And so, like, you're an example of this. 00:12:34.300 --> 00:12:39.200 How are you, like, you know, we've said the phrase bivocational, co-vocational. 00:12:39.360 --> 00:12:48.340 You're getting a job outside of the established church to pay the personal bills and things like that. 00:12:48.420 --> 00:12:51.800 Do you want to maybe describe here a little bit what that looks like for you? 00:12:51.960 --> 00:12:59.680 What are you doing to kind of pay the bills, the mortgage, to pay the life expenses for you and Angie? 00:13:00.060 --> 00:13:00.880 Yeah, that's a great question. 00:13:01.360 --> 00:13:04.920 Number one, I would like to encourage everybody to teach tithing in their digital church. 00:13:05.700 --> 00:13:06.760 Giving every week. 00:13:06.840 --> 00:13:07.680 We do it every single week. 00:13:07.820 --> 00:13:15.120 If you watch our gatherings that we record, we go live on Sundays. 00:13:15.340 --> 00:13:20.460 Every Sunday, we teach a portion on giving, tithing. 00:13:20.640 --> 00:13:23.480 Every Sunday, you get what you teach. 00:13:24.020 --> 00:13:29.160 And so, eventually, you might take, you know, we deal with a heart issue of people, as we all know. 00:13:29.880 --> 00:13:32.340 And so, it takes time to get the seed of the word in their heart. 00:13:32.620 --> 00:13:35.740 Then they can make decisions as that seed grows and then it's fruitful. 00:13:36.280 --> 00:13:40.840 So, I would encourage every pastor to teach tithing in their digital church. 00:13:42.100 --> 00:13:51.420 Whether it's tithing, generosity, grace giving, whatever you want to call it, really giving, as we all know, is a matter, a condition of a heart. 00:13:52.080 --> 00:13:54.240 And it's highly, highly biblical. 00:13:55.060 --> 00:13:57.160 And I think it's very, very important. 00:13:57.720 --> 00:13:59.300 That's one aspect of it. 00:13:59.380 --> 00:14:00.340 So, we teach every Sunday. 00:14:00.460 --> 00:14:03.920 And we touch on it twice during the message. 00:14:04.160 --> 00:14:05.460 And we're unashamed in that. 00:14:05.460 --> 00:14:14.280 And we all should teach tithing because it's really a beautiful spiritual discipline, as many of us probably do. 00:14:14.820 --> 00:14:15.700 Hopefully, we're givers. 00:14:16.220 --> 00:14:17.820 Anyway, that's a whole other story. 00:14:19.700 --> 00:14:20.140 That. 00:14:20.320 --> 00:14:20.440 Okay. 00:14:20.540 --> 00:14:23.060 So, I think as far as, you know, how do we pay the bills? 00:14:23.300 --> 00:14:24.040 You know, how do we eat? 00:14:24.540 --> 00:14:37.720 You know, how do we do these things called life when the church doesn't bring in enough money to have a living wage, so to speak. 00:14:38.040 --> 00:14:47.040 You know, or to pay for upgrades and cameras and lights and, you know, all the things behind the scenes that take just to do this. 00:14:47.160 --> 00:14:48.020 You know, nothing's free. 00:14:49.020 --> 00:14:51.960 The good stuff is, I mean, there's some good, let me say that. 00:14:52.000 --> 00:14:54.960 There's some good free things you can do to start off with. 00:14:55.280 --> 00:14:58.900 But you learn pretty fast that, I mean, that only goes so far. 00:15:00.760 --> 00:15:06.260 And so, yeah, my wife and I both work jobs in a bivocational way. 00:15:07.000 --> 00:15:12.500 My wife works with a remote accounting company. 00:15:12.500 --> 00:15:17.820 She's been an accountant, bookkeeper for the last of her whole working career. 00:15:18.520 --> 00:15:19.640 And she does that. 00:15:20.080 --> 00:15:24.160 She has her own side company doing social media and bookkeeping. 00:15:25.200 --> 00:15:31.080 So, she has a couple streams of income that she does, as well as Angie runs all. 00:15:31.400 --> 00:15:34.380 She really runs all the leadership development for Hope City Church. 00:15:36.060 --> 00:15:39.720 All the implementation of vision and strategy. 00:15:39.900 --> 00:15:41.200 She oversees all the strategies. 00:15:41.200 --> 00:15:42.380 She oversees all the teams. 00:15:43.360 --> 00:15:46.960 As we're raising up leaders, we release out to other people to do as well. 00:15:47.880 --> 00:15:48.560 So, she's pretty busy. 00:15:48.900 --> 00:15:51.280 She's in her office right there working right now. 00:15:51.420 --> 00:15:53.140 And so, she does that. 00:15:53.720 --> 00:16:01.060 For me, I work in corporate executive protection in the private security field. 00:16:01.540 --> 00:16:02.400 And I do that. 00:16:02.820 --> 00:16:05.920 I actually just landed a new gig out here in Des Moines, which is pretty exciting. 00:16:06.800 --> 00:16:08.040 And so, I work in that. 00:16:08.040 --> 00:16:14.680 And then I'm an options trader, stock options trader on the side. 00:16:14.760 --> 00:16:22.160 So, we have multiple ways of making income, as well as a small salary from Hope City Church that comes in. 00:16:22.720 --> 00:16:29.700 What I love about it is it's really a representation of all the people that sit in our churches. 00:16:30.440 --> 00:16:33.720 You know, we just become part of the big team. 00:16:34.180 --> 00:16:39.360 You know, I believe pastors should be paid, and pastors should be paid well, as the church can pay them. 00:16:39.680 --> 00:16:43.040 At the same time, that shouldn't stop us from being involved in ministry. 00:16:43.540 --> 00:16:46.960 That shouldn't stop us from fulfilling the call of God in our lives. 00:16:47.340 --> 00:16:54.960 And sometimes the call of God in our lives is not to just, you know, be a pastor in a church building 40, 50 hours a week. 00:16:55.640 --> 00:16:59.960 Why I have these other passions and desires to do. 00:17:00.320 --> 00:17:03.920 What I love about digital ministry is we can do this anywhere. 00:17:04.580 --> 00:17:06.620 You know, we were just in Destin, Florida on a little break. 00:17:06.720 --> 00:17:08.280 We did our Sunday gathering from there. 00:17:08.880 --> 00:17:13.400 I could sit on the beach, and I could, you know, interact with groups of people. 00:17:14.120 --> 00:17:20.880 I can be at work, interacting at times when it's appropriate, interacting with people. 00:17:21.460 --> 00:17:25.800 But not only that, I can raise up teams of people to do the same thing. 00:17:26.420 --> 00:17:33.440 Not everybody wants to be in full-time, what we would call full-time vocational ministry, but we're all called to be in ministry. 00:17:33.980 --> 00:17:37.960 And we're all called to the Great Commission to go and make disciples. 00:17:37.960 --> 00:17:44.200 That's not for a certain part of a percentage of the church. 00:17:44.380 --> 00:17:50.560 It's called, Jesus has called every single believer to go and multiply themselves and make disciples. 00:17:51.380 --> 00:18:00.960 That is the ministry, I believe, ultimately we see in Ephesians chapter 4, where it says, you know, go and, you know, equip people to do their own works of ministry. 00:18:01.400 --> 00:18:10.180 And that has to be more than just, you know, which is beautiful, has to be more than just, you know, being a parking lot attendant at a church and waiting people in, which is fine and it's wonderful. 00:18:10.380 --> 00:18:11.740 I'm not, I don't speak against that. 00:18:12.240 --> 00:18:17.400 It has to be more than just, you know, yeah, it has to be more than just that. 00:18:17.540 --> 00:18:23.480 I believe people are called ultimately to make a disciple who makes disciples, who makes disciples. 00:18:24.820 --> 00:18:34.900 And what I love about the digital church is we get to duplicate ourselves or multiply ourselves and our leaders to do exactly that. 00:18:36.000 --> 00:18:38.600 We just lost, we are launching Alpha right now. 00:18:38.880 --> 00:18:42.540 We're so thankful for Alpha and what Pastor Nicky Gumbel has done. 00:18:43.040 --> 00:18:50.040 They went, of course, they went virtual and online when everything happened and they didn't stop doing it. 00:18:50.280 --> 00:18:51.520 They actually increased it. 00:18:51.520 --> 00:18:54.600 They produced more content and they're keeping it online. 00:18:55.260 --> 00:19:04.180 And so we're right now doing a test, a test, 13-week test with people, just learning the ins and outs of it, how it's going to work digitally with their platform. 00:19:04.880 --> 00:19:13.620 And then it is going to be our, we have decided as a team, the next step in Hope City Church Live is Alpha. 00:19:13.860 --> 00:19:21.560 When somebody asks us, what's the next, how do I, what do I, how I really want to say it, what's my next step in the community? 00:19:21.680 --> 00:19:22.860 What is the next thing you want me to do? 00:19:22.900 --> 00:19:23.680 How do I get involved? 00:19:24.080 --> 00:19:24.700 You go to Alpha. 00:19:25.420 --> 00:19:27.880 And we believe we can multiply that endeavor. 00:19:28.060 --> 00:19:37.280 We can use it as a great evangelistic tool because of Alpha has such a great network and a great platform in reaching people digitally already. 00:19:38.160 --> 00:19:40.240 We think, you know, we don't have to reinvent the wheel. 00:19:40.380 --> 00:19:42.180 We can just join whatever other people are doing. 00:19:42.940 --> 00:19:46.120 And again, we can multiply leaders that way as well. 00:19:46.120 --> 00:19:59.720 Yeah, it has been so fun in the season watching Alpha learn lessons publicly and make the shift, how they were nothing digital pre-COVID, but during the digital season, lean towards it. 00:20:00.180 --> 00:20:07.300 You know, he went on Newhoff, openly had the conversation about the lessons that he learned and seeing them thrive in digital space. 00:20:07.300 --> 00:20:13.080 I've got church friends that have seen 700 plus people attend digital Alpha events. 00:20:13.460 --> 00:20:17.720 And so seeing, man, seeing it happen has been so cool. 00:20:18.200 --> 00:20:18.380 All right. 00:20:18.400 --> 00:20:19.700 Well, hey, let's pivot here. 00:20:19.740 --> 00:20:20.640 Let's come back a little bit. 00:20:21.060 --> 00:20:25.280 So you and your wife, Angie, like you're in private security. 00:20:25.520 --> 00:20:28.260 If you're watching this on YouTube, the guy's ripped and buff. 00:20:28.600 --> 00:20:37.040 And so like, I'm scared and he's like multiple states away, you know, and Angie's doing accounting and a number of other things. 00:20:37.040 --> 00:20:39.440 Like, were you intentional with the jobs? 00:20:40.160 --> 00:20:43.320 Was it just the jobs that were easily available for you? 00:20:43.400 --> 00:20:46.300 Do you do ministry in context of the jobs? 00:20:46.340 --> 00:20:50.620 Like, I'm just curious why both of you are kind of doing the things that you're doing. 00:20:50.740 --> 00:20:52.700 What was the impetus of that? 00:20:53.060 --> 00:20:54.020 Well, I'd say it this way. 00:20:54.920 --> 00:21:00.540 You know, we worked at a very large megachurch in the Pacific Northwest, a beautiful church. 00:21:00.640 --> 00:21:01.280 We grew a lot. 00:21:01.380 --> 00:21:02.340 It's a great place. 00:21:02.660 --> 00:21:03.540 It's called City Church. 00:21:03.600 --> 00:21:04.620 It's now called Church Home. 00:21:05.140 --> 00:21:07.440 And we were on staff there almost a decade. 00:21:08.240 --> 00:21:18.320 And, you know, our joke with a lot of people is, you know, people just think, you know, you work at a church that big, where you guys just go do and like pray all day long or something. 00:21:18.520 --> 00:21:19.760 You know, you have a job there. 00:21:19.820 --> 00:21:20.320 You work there. 00:21:20.720 --> 00:21:31.660 And so we worked in different roles there, you know, helping to administrate, not administrate roles, but, you know, roles, structure roles for that organization. 00:21:31.800 --> 00:21:33.020 It was like going to work, you know. 00:21:34.740 --> 00:21:41.820 The pastors had their things to do, but the rest of us, you know, we kept this place spinning, you know, we did work there. 00:21:42.080 --> 00:21:47.200 And so we've always been, I think, in a way, you know, but we were paid fully from the church. 00:21:48.460 --> 00:22:02.960 As the years progressed, you know, and it was really when we went to a small real community, we started seeing that, man, I mean, the pressure of finances is so big in churches. 00:22:04.420 --> 00:22:05.660 I think there's a number of reasons. 00:22:05.780 --> 00:22:09.060 I think sometimes, you know, we can overextend ourselves for vision. 00:22:09.460 --> 00:22:14.580 We, you know, we want to live by faith and not by, walk by faith and not by sight. 00:22:14.760 --> 00:22:19.180 And so sometimes we need to evict a little bit more wisdom in that, you know, and we can get overextended. 00:22:19.440 --> 00:22:32.040 And, you know, we tend to forget at times that, you know, the giving in the church is based on the generosity, ultimately, however you want to talk about it, from the hearts of people. 00:22:33.300 --> 00:22:39.700 And as they do well, they give well, and as they're not, they don't, you know, and just the way it is. 00:22:39.780 --> 00:22:46.320 We can fight on that all we want and understand it, but at the same point in time, it's just how it is. 00:22:48.180 --> 00:23:02.260 And so as we left there and we ended up, you know, moving back up to Seattle to plant a church, you know, our eyes opened, really started opening when this, 00:23:02.260 --> 00:23:10.360 the idea of taking this video-only campus of another megachurch and turning that into a church plant. 00:23:10.480 --> 00:23:12.420 And it was a newer church campus already. 00:23:13.260 --> 00:23:18.800 And when that presented us, we looked at the finances, you know, and said, well, there's no way this is going, 00:23:19.220 --> 00:23:24.260 this money's not going to continue to come in because the majority of the people are going to leave and go back to the mothership, so to speak. 00:23:24.960 --> 00:23:25.680 Which is fine. 00:23:25.800 --> 00:23:27.400 I mean, that's just, it's nothing wrong with that. 00:23:27.700 --> 00:23:31.500 They were helping to launch that campus and they're, you know, if it's going to change, they're going to go back. 00:23:31.580 --> 00:23:32.900 That was very upfront. 00:23:33.620 --> 00:23:38.580 So we started, you know, well, if we want to do this, we're going to have to get a job, you know. 00:23:39.300 --> 00:23:48.720 Now, over the years, over the years, we both kept certain skill sets up for those, you know, just having skill sets that are transferable. 00:23:48.720 --> 00:23:58.240 Because in 2000, yeah, it really started, I'd say this, in 2010, 2009, we were going to, we were going to do a parachute. 00:23:58.420 --> 00:24:00.340 We were going to move to Miami, Florida and plant a church. 00:24:00.800 --> 00:24:05.800 And I think that's where the seed thought started, started really happening in our lot, in our hearts. 00:24:05.860 --> 00:24:12.440 But I have to think about it, was back then when we were, when we were going to first plant our first church in 2000 and it would have been in 2010. 00:24:13.560 --> 00:24:14.880 And we didn't know anybody in Miami. 00:24:14.880 --> 00:24:19.660 We didn't know, we just, we're feeling the Lord leading us to go that direction. 00:24:20.180 --> 00:24:27.720 And our plan was to go to Miami, get jobs and start connecting with people, reach people and plant a church. 00:24:28.180 --> 00:24:30.560 Seemed good to us in the Holy Spirit, that's what we're going to do. 00:24:31.000 --> 00:24:40.040 And so in saying that, we both had skill sets, me and the security field, my wife and the accounting, jobs would have been easy to get. 00:24:40.040 --> 00:24:43.280 The team of people that we were raising, all of them would have gotten jobs. 00:24:44.880 --> 00:24:46.040 This is kind of what you do. 00:24:46.120 --> 00:24:48.020 Everybody goes, works and plants, you know? 00:24:48.160 --> 00:24:51.840 And I think, I think that's where it really started. 00:24:52.080 --> 00:24:58.760 So as we went through our ministry life, keeping certain skill sets sharp, helped us when we made that pivot. 00:24:59.020 --> 00:25:00.460 By the way, totally open to you. 00:25:00.520 --> 00:25:01.260 I live in Miami. 00:25:01.580 --> 00:25:02.920 Totally open to you coming down. 00:25:03.000 --> 00:25:03.680 Would love to help. 00:25:03.760 --> 00:25:06.720 I'm actually with a friend of mine planting a church right now. 00:25:06.760 --> 00:25:07.720 We're about six months old. 00:25:07.720 --> 00:25:12.380 And so love, love the idea of more churches in Miami. 00:25:12.720 --> 00:25:15.700 And so the more, the merrier. 00:25:15.860 --> 00:25:17.560 It's a huge mission field down here. 00:25:18.020 --> 00:25:18.260 All right. 00:25:18.540 --> 00:25:24.980 So you have a, you're a, you work in security. 00:25:25.340 --> 00:25:27.140 That's your, that's your primary job. 00:25:27.220 --> 00:25:29.120 That's the primary thing that I'm guessing. 00:25:29.120 --> 00:25:31.140 That's the primary thing that you spend your time doing. 00:25:32.720 --> 00:25:40.700 Do you feel the tension of not being a pastor 40 plus hours a week? 00:25:40.820 --> 00:25:42.800 Like, how are you pastoring? 00:25:42.940 --> 00:25:43.680 How are you shepherding? 00:25:43.760 --> 00:25:50.040 How are you caring for people when you're clocking, clocking in as a security, whatever that is? 00:25:50.300 --> 00:25:53.020 Well, yeah, that's a great, that's a great, great question. 00:25:53.180 --> 00:25:58.080 I think, I'll just say it the way I say things. 00:26:00.540 --> 00:26:05.620 I have yet to met any pastor, including myself, who shepherds people 40 or 50 hours a week. 00:26:08.480 --> 00:26:11.760 Because that's usually, that's usually the question. 00:26:11.860 --> 00:26:17.000 The question is, how do you, how can you have a, a dual focus or multi-focus? 00:26:17.420 --> 00:26:18.440 What about your people? 00:26:18.560 --> 00:26:24.300 Well, hopefully my people are working in jobs and careers or, you know, some of them are not. 00:26:24.440 --> 00:26:34.340 If we're just thinking about shepherding people, um, uh, uh, if you look at your hours during a week at the pastor, maybe 50 hours, it's probably what the average pastor works. 00:26:34.520 --> 00:26:41.140 And you look at that, how many of those 50 hours are you really hands on personally with a person? 00:26:42.740 --> 00:26:48.760 Now I have some wonderful pastor friends who are crazy people that are always with people. 00:26:48.820 --> 00:26:55.340 I don't know how they do it, but you know, how many hours are you really in the face with somebody, you know, at their house? 00:26:55.420 --> 00:26:56.160 They're at your house. 00:26:56.220 --> 00:26:57.160 You're at coffee with them. 00:26:57.260 --> 00:27:00.380 You're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're doing that type of thing. 00:27:01.200 --> 00:27:02.980 Um, it's not 40 hours. 00:27:03.740 --> 00:27:04.860 It's not 50 hours. 00:27:05.060 --> 00:27:10.720 I doubt if it's 30 hours, you know, because of all the other duties yet you're, you're responsible to do as a pastor. 00:27:10.880 --> 00:27:16.180 And then again, you have to define what, what is really your roles as that lead pastor or a pastor. 00:27:16.620 --> 00:27:20.000 And I guess let's say lead pastor, what's your chief responsibility? 00:27:20.000 --> 00:27:22.880 My personal opinion is my chief responsibility. 00:27:23.080 --> 00:27:30.540 Number one, first and foremost, outside of my relationship with Jesus and my wife is, uh, teaching the church and equipping the church. 00:27:30.540 --> 00:27:40.700 And so I have my times of study and prayer and personal devotion side, but my times of study and preparing messages to teach, you know, which takes up probably the bulk of the time. 00:27:40.700 --> 00:27:49.940 And then from there you start breaking down and they're, you know, personal connection time with people, you know, and when do you do that? 00:27:50.000 --> 00:28:00.840 You know, and I, and I think for me, I'm actually discipling more people now than I would ever discipling personally prior to, prior to being digital. 00:28:01.220 --> 00:28:03.240 I'm way more involved in people's lives. 00:28:03.320 --> 00:28:13.500 I'm way more because I, I, especially guys, you know, um, I don't know too many guys that want to sit around and have a, you know, a two, two or three hours of talk every time you see them. 00:28:13.500 --> 00:28:33.180 You know, um, not always, but you know, I, I think, yeah, I, I, I, I'm in, I'm involved in more people's lives and they're more involved in my life through a instant message, through a Facebook group, through a zoom call, through some type of communication like this. 00:28:33.560 --> 00:28:35.960 Um, way more, way more, way more, way more. 00:28:36.040 --> 00:28:36.920 Now I'm not saying that's good. 00:28:37.060 --> 00:28:37.740 Maybe it's bad. 00:28:37.820 --> 00:28:39.180 Maybe I was doing such a terrible job. 00:28:39.260 --> 00:28:46.020 I don't know, um, way more than, than now, because I don't think we've thought about this, this way. 00:28:46.260 --> 00:28:49.780 You know, can we truly have, uh, relationships? 00:28:50.020 --> 00:28:54.400 Can we have deep, meaningful relationships and never sit in the same room together? 00:28:54.820 --> 00:28:58.200 And, uh, I would a hundred percent say, I hope so. 00:28:58.480 --> 00:29:08.860 You know, cause most likely if, if you just sit in a group around a table at Starbucks, you know, uh, once, once a week for an hour and that's it. 00:29:08.900 --> 00:29:15.480 Or the only type of discipling we're doing is for the platform and that's all we do. 00:29:15.640 --> 00:29:18.540 We're never really involved in people's lives or there's no accessibility. 00:29:18.840 --> 00:29:24.100 People are so accessible to us now that it's, uh, um, yeah, it's just different. 00:29:24.420 --> 00:29:30.580 Uh, uh, so for me, yeah, I, I am personally discipling way more people. 00:29:30.740 --> 00:29:35.880 Well, I mean, relationally way more people now than, than, uh, than ever before. 00:29:35.880 --> 00:29:41.320 And not only that, it's not just, it's not just in my city or in my church, in my, this location. 00:29:41.900 --> 00:29:45.820 It's, it's worldwide, you know, Francis who lives in Uganda. 00:29:46.200 --> 00:29:50.360 I'm as close to, close to the Francis as I am somebody that will come over to my house. 00:29:50.600 --> 00:29:51.460 We've never met. 00:29:51.520 --> 00:29:52.180 We'll be in person. 00:29:52.280 --> 00:29:53.880 We'll probably never be meeting in person. 00:29:54.020 --> 00:29:56.700 You know, I know things about his life, you know, things about me. 00:29:56.740 --> 00:30:02.300 I have another friend that lives in the UK that I met on a video game six years ago. 00:30:03.320 --> 00:30:05.080 And we're very close. 00:30:05.080 --> 00:30:09.060 So I walk with him through the death of his mom, the death of his dad, uh, his, uh, his 00:30:09.060 --> 00:30:15.220 struggle, his, in his marriage as deep and as meaningful as if he was sitting in our church 00:30:15.220 --> 00:30:17.720 building on a Sunday morning every week. 00:30:18.140 --> 00:30:21.080 Um, and I can go down the long, the long list. 00:30:21.160 --> 00:30:26.580 I believe this, uh, the minute our, we shift, you know, the Bible calls it repentance. 00:30:26.940 --> 00:30:31.180 The minute we change the way we think, you know, transform the way we're doing life. 00:30:31.920 --> 00:30:34.100 And repentance is a beautiful thing. 00:30:34.160 --> 00:30:35.340 We are to repent all the time. 00:30:35.440 --> 00:30:37.080 It's a constant life is a repentant life. 00:30:37.080 --> 00:30:42.940 And I think the more we begin to think and change the way we think about certain things, 00:30:42.940 --> 00:30:48.520 I think the, the, the, the gospel and is going to go forward at a, at a, at a more rapid rate. 00:30:48.920 --> 00:30:51.800 Um, we can be everywhere. 00:30:53.200 --> 00:30:56.500 Why we're sitting in Des Moines, Iowa. 00:30:57.280 --> 00:30:59.960 No, I, I love, I love all of that. 00:31:00.040 --> 00:31:00.680 Let me ask this. 00:31:01.180 --> 00:31:06.680 So you're, you have, I mean, digital has allowed you to reach. 00:31:07.440 --> 00:31:08.780 I'm trying to figure out how to say this. 00:31:09.040 --> 00:31:12.080 Digital has allowed you to be more efficient with your engagement. 00:31:12.760 --> 00:31:14.480 Um, you're able to reach. 00:31:14.920 --> 00:31:15.320 Yeah. 00:31:15.540 --> 00:31:16.900 Uh, you're able to reach further. 00:31:17.040 --> 00:31:19.240 I mean, you're talking about literally other continents. 00:31:19.480 --> 00:31:22.420 You're able to have, you know, very intimate conversations. 00:31:22.420 --> 00:31:26.700 You're talking about how you're engaging in, in being with, with, uh, with people at a 00:31:26.700 --> 00:31:27.560 deeper level quicker. 00:31:28.180 --> 00:31:34.620 Um, how, with you being by vote, do you find yourself leaning on more volunteers? 00:31:34.980 --> 00:31:39.160 Like, are you pushing responsibility, pushing may not be the right word. 00:31:39.260 --> 00:31:44.600 Are you encouraging responsibilities and, and diversifying and spreading it out among more 00:31:44.600 --> 00:31:49.780 people so that you've got more volunteers that are efficiently doing this as well? 00:31:49.780 --> 00:31:54.820 Are you reproducing yourself into others or is digital just a really allowing you the opportunity 00:31:54.820 --> 00:31:57.820 to be much more efficient in what you're doing? 00:31:58.000 --> 00:32:00.280 Like which, which of those paths kind of best describes you? 00:32:00.600 --> 00:32:03.140 I'd say right now, um, more efficient than what we're doing. 00:32:04.280 --> 00:32:11.000 And now with a piece of, of multiplying ourselves to others as they catch it, you know, um, we 00:32:11.000 --> 00:32:14.140 have, we have one, two, three, three, four leaders right now. 00:32:14.220 --> 00:32:18.720 They, they, they, they've, they've, they've caught it and, um, they're discipling, they're, 00:32:18.780 --> 00:32:21.240 they're, they're reproducing, they're talking, they're discipling. 00:32:21.720 --> 00:32:26.620 Um, again, it just takes time for people to, you know, to change the way they think. 00:32:26.700 --> 00:32:33.360 If the majority of people who go to church go 2.6 times a month or 1.8 or whatever statistic 00:32:33.360 --> 00:32:38.780 we find if, uh, if, if, if the whole, you know, don't get me wrong. 00:32:38.820 --> 00:32:39.380 I love the church. 00:32:39.440 --> 00:32:40.400 I love what we've been doing. 00:32:40.580 --> 00:32:46.700 I believe, I believe God has used this pandemic to bring a correction to the body of Christ. 00:32:47.360 --> 00:32:50.780 If churches, all I do is show up and sit on the seat. 00:32:51.260 --> 00:32:52.240 And I miss that. 00:32:52.300 --> 00:32:52.860 I miss that. 00:32:52.920 --> 00:32:53.520 How many times have we heard? 00:32:53.540 --> 00:32:54.300 I miss it so much. 00:32:54.340 --> 00:32:54.660 What do you miss? 00:32:54.700 --> 00:32:55.060 The people? 00:32:55.380 --> 00:32:58.500 Well, are you having those people over to your house ever during the week? 00:32:59.300 --> 00:33:03.360 You know, are you, I mean, what do you miss about, you know, and I think the whole gathering 00:33:03.360 --> 00:33:05.420 of the church in person is beautiful. 00:33:05.420 --> 00:33:06.000 It's wonderful. 00:33:06.080 --> 00:33:10.540 Who doesn't like to do it, but it's not just fulfilling a spiritual thing. 00:33:10.540 --> 00:33:12.400 It's filling up an emotional thing. 00:33:12.400 --> 00:33:14.700 It's filling up maybe some relational stuff. 00:33:14.760 --> 00:33:15.760 It's, it's euphoric. 00:33:16.100 --> 00:33:20.340 It's not just, just, you know, I go to church because, you know, I want to see my friends. 00:33:20.340 --> 00:33:24.440 Well, do you have your friends over on a Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, and most of the 00:33:24.440 --> 00:33:29.640 time in the 20, you see, I've been in full-time ministry since 1997, you know, so a couple 00:33:29.640 --> 00:33:32.020 of years, 25 years doing this. 00:33:33.380 --> 00:33:37.700 When I talk to people, okay, all the people that you miss on a Sunday, do you ever see 00:33:37.700 --> 00:33:37.860 them? 00:33:37.900 --> 00:33:41.760 And the answer is pretty, for the most part, 98%, and it could be just where I'm at. 00:33:42.060 --> 00:33:44.180 No, no, no, no. 00:33:44.180 --> 00:33:49.880 So if we're changing the way people think from the, from the part of just, I go to church, 00:33:49.880 --> 00:33:50.720 we hear this all the time. 00:33:50.720 --> 00:33:51.680 You're not just go to church. 00:33:51.680 --> 00:33:52.360 You are the church. 00:33:52.360 --> 00:33:53.940 Well, what does that really mean? 00:33:55.580 --> 00:34:00.180 And that's what the question that we've been asking ourselves, what does it mean to be the 00:34:00.180 --> 00:34:00.680 church? 00:34:01.460 --> 00:34:04.880 You know, what does it mean to be, to equip you for the work of your ministry? 00:34:05.520 --> 00:34:10.400 Again, it has to be more that I show up and I volunteer on a serve team, which is beautiful 00:34:10.400 --> 00:34:10.940 and it's wonderful. 00:34:11.480 --> 00:34:13.460 Trust me, I'm not making fun of that. 00:34:13.800 --> 00:34:16.300 But it has to be more because God did not call us to volunteer. 00:34:17.620 --> 00:34:19.040 There's no such thing as volunteering. 00:34:19.320 --> 00:34:20.160 We're not volunteers. 00:34:21.020 --> 00:34:21.860 You know, we're servants. 00:34:22.100 --> 00:34:23.320 We're called to serve the body. 00:34:23.420 --> 00:34:24.640 We're called to serve humanity. 00:34:24.960 --> 00:34:27.680 We're called to lay our lives down for the brothers and sisters of Christ. 00:34:27.980 --> 00:34:29.960 We're called to lay our lives down for humanity. 00:34:30.100 --> 00:34:31.520 We're called to go and make disciples. 00:34:31.960 --> 00:34:36.840 We're called to reproduce ourselves, to multiply ourselves, to extend the kingdom of God, because 00:34:36.840 --> 00:34:42.460 we believe our eternal lives actually, that eternity really is real, you know? 00:34:42.680 --> 00:34:48.060 And at some point in time, we have to expand the eternity that God has already placed in 00:34:48.060 --> 00:34:52.960 the hearts of people that the Holy Spirit's calling on that needs to be brought out of 00:34:52.960 --> 00:34:54.300 them, so to speak, right? 00:34:54.460 --> 00:34:59.040 So I think as people begin to change the way they think from just being church attenders, 00:35:00.000 --> 00:35:00.220 right? 00:35:01.120 --> 00:35:02.520 I attend this church. 00:35:02.660 --> 00:35:03.740 I go, that's my church. 00:35:04.000 --> 00:35:05.000 Okay, what does that mean to you? 00:35:05.220 --> 00:35:07.920 These are the conversations we have with team members as they're coming in. 00:35:07.980 --> 00:35:08.640 Do I get involved? 00:35:09.100 --> 00:35:12.180 You know, you just want me to have a group of people and talk to people? 00:35:13.500 --> 00:35:13.820 Yes. 00:35:14.480 --> 00:35:16.680 What is the number one thing you can do at Hope City Church? 00:35:16.880 --> 00:35:21.920 The number one thing you can do at Hope City Church is be willing to talk to somebody that 00:35:21.920 --> 00:35:23.780 needs to be talked to, you know what I'm saying? 00:35:24.040 --> 00:35:24.800 That needs prayer. 00:35:25.060 --> 00:35:26.820 That needs to be prayed for. 00:35:26.920 --> 00:35:27.740 That needs to be cared for. 00:35:27.820 --> 00:35:29.120 That needs to be looked after. 00:35:29.340 --> 00:35:31.520 That needs to follow me as I follow Christ. 00:35:31.660 --> 00:35:32.640 All the apostles says it. 00:35:32.940 --> 00:35:36.040 In the book of Ephesians, follow me as I follow Jesus, right? 00:35:36.280 --> 00:35:40.400 So we need those who will follow, and of course, we understand, we all follow Jesus. 00:35:40.520 --> 00:35:41.240 Yes, we got that. 00:35:42.140 --> 00:35:43.180 But we're to make disciples. 00:35:43.300 --> 00:35:45.700 So the disciple has to follow you, and that disciple follows that person. 00:35:45.860 --> 00:35:48.120 It's very easy, but it's very hard to do at the same time. 00:35:48.120 --> 00:35:53.520 So I think it's changing the way people think, again, from just going to church and attending 00:35:53.520 --> 00:35:59.860 and maybe volunteering on a Sunday to you are responsible for the soul of a person. 00:36:00.920 --> 00:36:02.020 You are responsible. 00:36:02.140 --> 00:36:07.340 God wants us responsible for the individual lives of people that he brings us in connection 00:36:07.340 --> 00:36:07.640 with. 00:36:08.240 --> 00:36:14.980 And so the more people we can get digitally to see that and see social media and see, you 00:36:14.980 --> 00:36:17.940 know, platforms and see the virtual world, people are there. 00:36:18.040 --> 00:36:22.900 3.7 billion people are using social media on a monthly basis, and it's growing. 00:36:23.100 --> 00:36:24.140 It's not going to shrink. 00:36:24.360 --> 00:36:25.140 It's going to grow. 00:36:25.400 --> 00:36:26.320 It's actually expanding. 00:36:27.320 --> 00:36:31.780 You know, 3.7 billion people are actively engaging on social media. 00:36:31.780 --> 00:36:35.480 I would say that's where the church needs to be. 00:36:37.020 --> 00:36:39.160 And so that's where the church, that's where we're going. 00:36:39.820 --> 00:36:42.380 You know, there's a lot of questions behind that. 00:36:42.460 --> 00:36:49.660 But then it's making more leaders to think that way, more reproducing ourselves to think 00:36:49.660 --> 00:36:52.340 that way that, you know, you can do it as well. 00:36:52.840 --> 00:36:52.860 Yeah. 00:36:52.900 --> 00:36:58.140 Helping people find their personal mission and tying that into a mission field like social 00:36:58.140 --> 00:37:00.700 media where these 3.7 billion people are. 00:37:00.840 --> 00:37:04.380 I mean, there's huge opportunities to relationally engage. 00:37:04.520 --> 00:37:11.700 And I always, I love that relational approach that you and other digital churches speak so 00:37:11.700 --> 00:37:12.380 highly of. 00:37:12.660 --> 00:37:16.720 And as you explore the metaverse and even start to explore some of those worlds, you're going 00:37:16.720 --> 00:37:22.940 to see, honestly, I think it's even more relational in the meta side than in the digital. 00:37:23.100 --> 00:37:25.460 I've been really encouraged by the stuff I've seen in that space. 00:37:25.540 --> 00:37:26.680 Well, let me ask this. 00:37:27.640 --> 00:37:31.600 You are, so you're bivocational. 00:37:31.860 --> 00:37:33.240 You and Angie both are. 00:37:33.960 --> 00:37:37.520 If the church could afford to pay you your full-time salary, would you do that? 00:37:37.880 --> 00:37:40.640 I would take the full-time salary and still be bivocational. 00:37:42.600 --> 00:37:43.000 Okay. 00:37:43.220 --> 00:37:47.660 So, but for you, like what's the win and what's the win in doing the work outside? 00:37:47.920 --> 00:37:53.920 Being around people, you know, you're in, you get to hear how people think and how they 00:37:53.920 --> 00:37:56.780 see things in life and what's important to them. 00:37:56.780 --> 00:38:04.420 See, when you're in the marketplace, you get to be around people who can teach you a lot 00:38:04.420 --> 00:38:07.300 of things a heck of a lot faster than you can read them online, right? 00:38:07.640 --> 00:38:10.180 And so you get around people, you build relationships with people. 00:38:10.620 --> 00:38:13.740 And that's the beauty of it all. 00:38:14.200 --> 00:38:19.140 I think if somebody said, hey, we're going to give you, I hope to see the church $100,000 00:38:19.140 --> 00:38:23.480 and we want you to use that for salary for you and your wife, we don't want you working. 00:38:23.920 --> 00:38:25.980 And I simply would ask, is that conditional? 00:38:25.980 --> 00:38:26.900 Like, what do you mean? 00:38:27.180 --> 00:38:29.780 Is it conditional that if I take the money, I have to stop working? 00:38:30.080 --> 00:38:30.800 And they say, yes. 00:38:30.840 --> 00:38:31.780 I say, no, no, no. 00:38:32.260 --> 00:38:35.880 I think there's a number of reasons to that. 00:38:36.120 --> 00:38:36.720 A couple of reasons. 00:38:36.840 --> 00:38:42.540 Number one, I don't want to be just tied to the salaries of the giving of people, right? 00:38:44.920 --> 00:38:51.360 I believe that we should be in the marketplace if you have skill sets to do that. 00:38:51.680 --> 00:38:56.280 I also think it's – that's where the people are at. 00:38:56.460 --> 00:39:01.840 As a pastor, again, as a pastor who had pastored churches and was on staff of churches and you 00:39:01.840 --> 00:39:03.600 worked in the building and that's where you were. 00:39:04.020 --> 00:39:06.340 And you sat in your office and wrote your sermons. 00:39:06.660 --> 00:39:08.980 Or if you're a golfer, you're out on the golf course or whatever. 00:39:10.300 --> 00:39:13.160 You only get a certain amount of people around you at one time. 00:39:13.880 --> 00:39:17.440 But what if you worked at a job and you had an office building that you worked in? 00:39:17.540 --> 00:39:18.880 Or you're – whatever you would do. 00:39:18.960 --> 00:39:19.920 I don't know what people do. 00:39:20.520 --> 00:39:25.900 But you're around people, you know, and the flavor of Jesus can get off of you on other 00:39:25.900 --> 00:39:26.380 people. 00:39:26.520 --> 00:39:31.460 So now that we have a duplicity of ministry, so we have digital ministry, and we have marketplace 00:39:31.460 --> 00:39:36.060 ministry going on where we're in person with many, many, many, many lost people. 00:39:36.480 --> 00:39:40.980 And I think if – though if somebody's listening and they want to send us money, we'll take it. 00:39:41.340 --> 00:39:45.860 Okay, so listen, there's somebody out here that's listening to this podcast, listening 00:39:45.860 --> 00:39:46.760 to this conversation. 00:39:47.580 --> 00:39:49.580 And this may be starting to make sense. 00:39:50.300 --> 00:39:53.380 You know, I'm seeing – I need to get more in the marketplace. 00:39:53.560 --> 00:39:54.900 I need to get more around people. 00:39:55.160 --> 00:40:01.560 I want to diversify my ministry so that it's not just me and try to multiply it into others. 00:40:01.720 --> 00:40:07.180 And to do that, I'm going to burn the ships and kind of take on a full-time job outside 00:40:07.180 --> 00:40:11.260 ministry that's going to force me to start to multiply into others. 00:40:11.340 --> 00:40:13.360 And see the ministry expand that way. 00:40:14.000 --> 00:40:15.600 How do I get started in this? 00:40:15.720 --> 00:40:16.760 What's the first step? 00:40:16.980 --> 00:40:17.680 You know, I don't know. 00:40:18.080 --> 00:40:19.840 Quit the nine-to-five church job. 00:40:19.940 --> 00:40:22.640 Take a nine-to-five job elsewhere. 00:40:23.040 --> 00:40:29.080 Like, when you transitioned away from the city church and the church homes and went towards 00:40:29.080 --> 00:40:33.660 more of a bivocational approach, what were some of those early days for you? 00:40:33.940 --> 00:40:36.040 Get ready to battle the feeling of failure. 00:40:36.040 --> 00:40:44.760 I think this idea that if you're a bivocational pastor and it could – well, I've talked to 00:40:44.760 --> 00:40:46.560 a number of people and myself. 00:40:47.780 --> 00:40:52.260 Somehow, if you don't have enough money coming into your church, this is for people you're 00:40:52.260 --> 00:40:56.860 listening and you're watching and you're in-person church and you don't plan on – you're 00:40:56.860 --> 00:40:57.780 just foreign digital. 00:40:58.300 --> 00:41:02.440 You know, maybe to add it as an online expression to your church, which is beautiful. 00:41:05.820 --> 00:41:08.160 Or you're a person that feels like, I want to step away. 00:41:08.620 --> 00:41:17.760 One of the hard things you're going to have to deal with is that feeling of, I failed. 00:41:18.900 --> 00:41:26.000 Especially if it's – because, you know, I would say this, a lot of people feel you cannot 00:41:26.000 --> 00:41:31.120 have a – well, I would say it this way. 00:41:31.760 --> 00:41:36.120 You know, your focus can't be in a church and in a job because then you're a divided focus. 00:41:36.760 --> 00:41:36.940 You know? 00:41:38.500 --> 00:41:44.000 But I think when – you have to get ready to fight that battle of, I failed somehow. 00:41:44.200 --> 00:41:44.860 I couldn't make it. 00:41:44.920 --> 00:41:46.400 I couldn't cut it as a full-time pastor. 00:41:47.600 --> 00:41:51.660 Or maybe, like I said, I started to say, like, enough money is not coming in, so I have 00:41:51.660 --> 00:41:52.260 to get a job. 00:41:52.780 --> 00:41:53.040 You know? 00:41:54.560 --> 00:41:56.360 Well, I think you have to fight that battle. 00:41:58.120 --> 00:42:02.340 I think, what can I do? 00:42:03.360 --> 00:42:06.700 I know pastors who've never had a job. 00:42:07.800 --> 00:42:09.880 They've never had a job outside the church. 00:42:10.900 --> 00:42:11.100 You know? 00:42:11.400 --> 00:42:13.860 And, you know, they went to high school. 00:42:13.960 --> 00:42:15.360 They went to college, Bible college. 00:42:15.460 --> 00:42:18.120 Or maybe got a degree in communications. 00:42:18.340 --> 00:42:19.260 They went to Bible college or whatever. 00:42:19.400 --> 00:42:22.780 They went to the college route, seminary route, and they got hired in church. 00:42:22.780 --> 00:42:24.800 And they've only worked in the church. 00:42:25.260 --> 00:42:27.220 Get ready for an eye-opening experience. 00:42:28.160 --> 00:42:28.380 You know? 00:42:29.660 --> 00:42:32.100 And the eye-opening experience is, what would I do? 00:42:33.300 --> 00:42:33.880 You know? 00:42:34.000 --> 00:42:34.920 Would I go in sales? 00:42:35.100 --> 00:42:36.060 Would I go in this? 00:42:36.160 --> 00:42:39.380 I mean, what would I do? 00:42:40.160 --> 00:42:41.360 Which leads to number three. 00:42:42.500 --> 00:42:44.580 How much can they pay me to do what I do? 00:42:45.880 --> 00:42:46.180 Right? 00:42:48.720 --> 00:42:52.440 Now, just because of the type of people that I've been blessed to be around, 00:42:52.780 --> 00:43:00.840 over the years, some people think, wow, such, such pastor here makes this X amount of money. 00:43:01.320 --> 00:43:04.820 I'm going to, like, when you go into the ministry, oh, man, that pastor makes, oh, gosh, 00:43:05.100 --> 00:43:06.280 that pastor makes that kind of money. 00:43:07.140 --> 00:43:08.220 I'm going to make that kind of money. 00:43:08.300 --> 00:43:09.060 You find out that's not true. 00:43:09.820 --> 00:43:15.980 But does it, if I make an X amount of money as a pastor, am I going to make that much money 00:43:15.980 --> 00:43:19.700 to replace that income, right? 00:43:20.460 --> 00:43:22.060 So that's another way to look at it. 00:43:22.720 --> 00:43:23.960 Some things you have to think about. 00:43:24.620 --> 00:43:25.580 Can I do both? 00:43:27.180 --> 00:43:27.500 You know? 00:43:27.680 --> 00:43:30.420 Well, I'd say as a digital pastor, you definitely should be able to do both. 00:43:30.900 --> 00:43:32.160 But can I do both? 00:43:33.180 --> 00:43:35.840 Can I take a cut and pay from the church? 00:43:36.620 --> 00:43:41.700 And can I, or I would say cut and pay, but have a reduced salary from the church, I guess 00:43:41.700 --> 00:43:44.260 would be a cut and pay, a reduced salary from the church? 00:43:45.160 --> 00:43:48.980 Because I believe pastors biblically ought to be paid for the labor that they do. 00:43:49.760 --> 00:43:53.100 And they should be paid well for the labor that they do, according to what the church can 00:43:53.100 --> 00:43:53.420 afford. 00:43:56.120 --> 00:44:04.660 Can that be a stream of income, a stream of revenue, or I would say income, why I do another 00:44:04.660 --> 00:44:06.260 job, you know? 00:44:06.360 --> 00:44:11.760 And I think that's, those are things that you just have to begin to ask yourself, like, 00:44:11.820 --> 00:44:12.760 what are you passionate for? 00:44:12.780 --> 00:44:14.860 I'm passionate for private security work. 00:44:15.280 --> 00:44:16.240 I'm passionate for it. 00:44:16.260 --> 00:44:17.600 I've been passionate for it for years. 00:44:18.100 --> 00:44:20.320 I have had, I've helped set up security teams in churches. 00:44:20.720 --> 00:44:21.820 I've done event security. 00:44:21.940 --> 00:44:23.140 I've done executive protection work. 00:44:24.820 --> 00:44:29.540 The job that I'm doing, that I just got hired for now, blows my mind. 00:44:29.640 --> 00:44:30.560 I can't believe I got hired for it. 00:44:31.960 --> 00:44:34.400 It's a blessing, you know, helping to be a part of a team. 00:44:34.660 --> 00:44:41.320 That's going to be setting up a new corporate security look for 300 locations in their stores. 00:44:43.440 --> 00:44:44.860 I'm on the ground floor of that. 00:44:45.420 --> 00:44:45.880 I saw an ad. 00:44:45.920 --> 00:44:47.100 I just saw an ad in the news. 00:44:47.140 --> 00:44:48.100 I saw a news article. 00:44:49.680 --> 00:44:51.160 And I felt like the Holy Spirit said apply. 00:44:51.680 --> 00:44:52.600 I'm like, I'm not qualified. 00:44:52.920 --> 00:44:53.720 I'll qualify you. 00:44:53.880 --> 00:44:54.080 Apply. 00:44:55.760 --> 00:44:58.860 I got hired after their two-month-long vetting process. 00:44:59.000 --> 00:44:59.500 I'm still shocked. 00:45:00.600 --> 00:45:04.320 And so, but I've also, though, I've kept my skill set up. 00:45:04.760 --> 00:45:05.920 I've gotten certifications. 00:45:06.040 --> 00:45:07.240 I've kept my skill sets up. 00:45:07.320 --> 00:45:09.320 So those that are listening, how do I step away? 00:45:09.420 --> 00:45:10.560 What skill sets do you have? 00:45:12.660 --> 00:45:13.460 And those type of things. 00:45:13.540 --> 00:45:16.460 I think that's, those will be the things to think about, you know. 00:45:18.800 --> 00:45:20.860 As wonderful as I love pastors, we're all people. 00:45:22.040 --> 00:45:23.400 You're going to be looked at differently. 00:45:24.740 --> 00:45:31.680 You know, when you step from the full-time pastoral ministry, especially if you're a lead pastor, especially if you're, you know, executive pastor. 00:45:31.780 --> 00:45:35.060 And you decide, I'm going to go back into the marketplace or go to the marketplace. 00:45:37.540 --> 00:45:42.740 You know, people are going to push back on you, you know, for a number of reasons, which I've named a few. 00:45:43.240 --> 00:45:47.500 But for you, for me, it's, you know, I get to be around people. 00:45:48.080 --> 00:45:50.980 I get to be, you know, influential in that area. 00:45:51.720 --> 00:45:54.100 So it's almost like having two churches. 00:45:55.480 --> 00:46:02.660 I have our digital church and I have a church that's in the marketplace where people are at, you see. 00:46:03.000 --> 00:46:05.580 And so that's the way I look at it. 00:46:07.100 --> 00:46:10.540 You know, I have digital church, the marketplace church. 00:46:10.740 --> 00:46:13.380 I have a game app that I'm on, been on for years. 00:46:14.000 --> 00:46:17.540 And I'm reaching, I have hundreds of people that I connect with. 00:46:18.320 --> 00:46:19.460 That was just by accident. 00:46:19.460 --> 00:46:24.860 I just started playing some goofy game online 60 or 70 years ago and it's continued. 00:46:25.940 --> 00:46:30.920 And so I see the stream of the Holy Spirit intertwining all this together. 00:46:31.300 --> 00:46:41.060 But I think for pastors who, and it's okay, it's okay to stay in your executive level job as a leader. 00:46:41.240 --> 00:46:47.720 It could be somebody listening or watching today and, you know, you want to be, you want to do this, but you don't want to quit your job. 00:46:47.720 --> 00:46:49.000 I mean, you have a job full-time. 00:46:49.160 --> 00:46:53.020 And I'm like, I'm feeling called to do this, but I don't know how to raise money. 00:46:53.160 --> 00:46:54.400 I don't want to be full-time this. 00:46:54.480 --> 00:46:55.240 I love my career. 00:46:55.760 --> 00:46:58.460 You know, you're the perfect person. 00:46:59.460 --> 00:47:00.440 You're the perfect person. 00:47:00.540 --> 00:47:04.120 Don't feel like you have to quit your job to be in ministry. 00:47:04.680 --> 00:47:06.580 You're in ministry every time your feet hit the floor. 00:47:06.680 --> 00:47:07.540 And we all know this. 00:47:08.000 --> 00:47:11.320 But it's like, those are the people I'm excited for even more. 00:47:11.480 --> 00:47:17.540 Those who are, you know, who are exploring, hearing, who are just lovers of Jesus and lovers of people. 00:47:17.720 --> 00:47:25.260 Like, is it possible that I could actually, wow, I could actually be this influential in the people's lives and still keep my job? 00:47:25.460 --> 00:47:27.640 Well, that's what I want to do, 100%. 00:47:27.640 --> 00:47:30.080 I think we're just, some of us are just reversing it. 00:47:30.160 --> 00:47:31.400 We're going back into the marketplace. 00:47:31.780 --> 00:47:32.720 No, I love it. 00:47:32.800 --> 00:47:34.320 I mean, talk about humble disruption. 00:47:34.480 --> 00:47:41.480 The idea of looking at your job, at the marketplace as the mission field. 00:47:41.480 --> 00:47:48.240 And, hey, I've got a digital church and I'm doing this job to pay the bills, to pay my mortgage. 00:47:48.620 --> 00:47:51.300 But the job is, the job is not the job. 00:47:51.360 --> 00:47:52.340 The job's not the paycheck. 00:47:52.520 --> 00:47:55.200 The job's a mission opportunity. 00:47:55.400 --> 00:47:59.560 The job is a mission field, a ministry opportunity to engage in. 00:47:59.820 --> 00:48:01.980 And so, love that. 00:48:02.220 --> 00:48:03.640 Man, this has been such a good conversation. 00:48:03.860 --> 00:48:06.360 I love your heart for Baibo Kobo. 00:48:06.680 --> 00:48:12.820 And when I follow you on social, you're good for a rant every couple months on Baibo. 00:48:13.040 --> 00:48:15.280 And it's always like, hey, there he is. 00:48:15.540 --> 00:48:16.260 He's saying it. 00:48:16.480 --> 00:48:19.060 He's banging the drum, man. 00:48:19.260 --> 00:48:20.140 That's good to see. 00:48:20.260 --> 00:48:20.940 I love it. 00:48:21.040 --> 00:48:21.980 I really do, man. 00:48:22.200 --> 00:48:23.640 You're my go-to guy on this. 00:48:23.840 --> 00:48:25.640 So, love your heart for it. 00:48:25.980 --> 00:48:28.800 As we're landing the plane here, man, any closing thoughts today? 00:48:29.320 --> 00:48:32.300 Sure, I have a great closing thought, is this. 00:48:33.340 --> 00:48:34.400 Do what's in your heart. 00:48:35.700 --> 00:48:36.720 Do what's in your heart. 00:48:37.240 --> 00:48:40.620 God will supply all the people, all the money, all the needs, all the open doors. 00:48:41.220 --> 00:48:44.120 If it's in your heart to do it, do it, do it. 00:48:44.300 --> 00:48:50.520 If you're a pastor listening and, you know, the digital church space is freaking you out, ask yourself why. 00:48:51.520 --> 00:48:52.840 Why is it freaking me out? 00:48:53.500 --> 00:48:54.380 Is it theological? 00:48:54.740 --> 00:48:55.500 Is it doctrinal? 00:48:55.760 --> 00:48:57.840 Is it, well, what's the reason? 00:48:57.840 --> 00:49:03.280 I think, you and I talked about this before, Jeff, is like, you know, I can't remember who said it. 00:49:03.640 --> 00:49:07.360 You probably, you'll remember, you know, we'll be, we'll probably be 10 years from now. 00:49:07.480 --> 00:49:14.660 We're still going to be talking about, is the digital church a true church, theologically, doctrinally, and, you know, all that kind of stuff. 00:49:14.700 --> 00:49:15.220 We won't know. 00:49:15.640 --> 00:49:16.420 I'm 51. 00:49:16.660 --> 00:49:19.220 I'll probably, they'll probably still be talking about it 20 years from now when I'm 71. 00:49:20.840 --> 00:49:23.740 You know, we're just still figuring out it's okay to hit drums in the church, you know. 00:49:25.820 --> 00:49:28.200 I was like, what the heck. 00:49:28.980 --> 00:49:30.220 I enjoyed that one. 00:49:30.300 --> 00:49:30.600 Thank you. 00:49:30.640 --> 00:49:31.460 I appreciate that. 00:49:31.580 --> 00:49:31.780 All right. 00:49:33.460 --> 00:49:35.400 I think just do what's in your heart. 00:49:35.900 --> 00:49:45.220 I think pastors who, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please don't stop doing your online churches, your online services, your online streaming. 00:49:46.180 --> 00:49:47.200 Don't sell your equipment. 00:49:47.300 --> 00:49:48.440 If you do, let us know. 00:49:48.660 --> 00:49:52.420 We'll get it to the right, not to the right, but to a pastor that will use it. 00:49:52.540 --> 00:49:53.400 Donate your equipment. 00:49:53.520 --> 00:49:54.300 You don't need to sell it. 00:49:54.460 --> 00:49:55.500 Donate it to someone else. 00:49:55.620 --> 00:49:58.620 Use it as a seed into another digital church. 00:49:58.820 --> 00:50:02.200 I know a couple pastors that have sold their equipment or are selling their equipment. 00:50:02.340 --> 00:50:03.620 I'm encouraging them to don't sell it. 00:50:03.840 --> 00:50:04.480 Donate it. 00:50:04.920 --> 00:50:11.560 Matter of fact, if you don't even get off, just, you know, the online space is not, it's not going in, it's not going away. 00:50:12.560 --> 00:50:17.800 You know, the church, God has opened the door, a great and effective door for the church to go digital. 00:50:18.120 --> 00:50:19.840 And we're here to stay. 00:50:20.200 --> 00:50:20.880 We are the church. 00:50:20.960 --> 00:50:21.760 We're the church together. 00:50:22.540 --> 00:50:26.240 Traditional, in-person, online, whatever. 00:50:26.700 --> 00:50:28.500 We're all brothers and sisters in Christ. 00:50:28.720 --> 00:50:30.060 We all want to reach people. 00:50:30.200 --> 00:50:37.720 We all believe the eternity of people's lives matter way more than if we're in a building or not in the building or what color the carpet is. 00:50:37.860 --> 00:50:39.440 I'm so happy I don't have carpet anymore. 00:50:40.300 --> 00:50:41.120 All that stuff. 00:50:42.220 --> 00:50:43.420 Let's go and make disciples. 00:50:44.100 --> 00:50:45.040 Let's go and make disciples. 00:50:45.660 --> 00:50:50.180 In the end of the day, we all will stand before Jesus, and we want to hear those words. 00:50:50.660 --> 00:50:52.180 Well done, my good and faithful servant. 00:50:52.740 --> 00:50:53.400 That's what we are. 00:50:53.540 --> 00:50:54.320 We're servants of Jesus. 00:50:54.820 --> 00:50:55.620 We're servants of people. 00:50:56.240 --> 00:51:05.800 And so let's work together, and we'll have all eternity to cry on each other's shoulders how bad it means we work to each other on earth. 00:51:06.820 --> 00:51:08.320 We'll get to repent for each other, I guess. 00:51:08.400 --> 00:51:08.640 I don't know. 00:51:08.940 --> 00:51:12.520 But, yeah, do what's in your heart in saying that. 00:51:12.520 --> 00:51:16.580 Just do what's in your heart, and let's be the church together. 00:51:16.960 --> 00:51:17.360 Love it. 00:51:17.400 --> 00:51:22.040 I don't know any other better charge for humble disruption than what we just heard right there. 00:51:23.100 --> 00:51:25.300 Digital, physical, make those disciples. 00:51:25.740 --> 00:51:30.040 Follow what's in your heart and aim and strive after Jesus. 00:51:30.400 --> 00:51:36.960 And so, hey, man, as we're wrapping up episode 209 here in season three, man, that was beautiful. 00:51:37.120 --> 00:51:39.620 Jared, man, I just love hanging out with you. 00:51:39.700 --> 00:51:42.020 We've got to figure out ways to do this more. 00:51:42.500 --> 00:51:49.420 And if I can convince you to move a church, plant a church down here in Miami, maybe I need to start praying that way for you to do that. 00:51:50.340 --> 00:51:55.640 It's funny, Mark Venti, actually, I got a meeting with Mark Venti in a couple weeks. 00:51:55.720 --> 00:52:03.920 I don't know if I'm allowed to mic drop this, but evidently there's a gathering of church home viewers down here in Miami. 00:52:04.080 --> 00:52:06.280 And so they're starting to kind of try to huddle them together. 00:52:06.460 --> 00:52:08.160 So it's like, come on, man. 00:52:09.000 --> 00:52:10.280 Let's make it. 00:52:10.280 --> 00:52:13.460 We've known Mark and Crystal for years, decades, two decades, probably. 00:52:13.660 --> 00:52:14.560 Yeah, they're great people. 00:52:14.800 --> 00:52:19.400 Excited to hang out with him in a little bit, but definitely, man, excited about you and what's happening. 00:52:20.000 --> 00:52:24.120 With your church and the ministry and everything that's associated with it. 00:52:24.200 --> 00:52:33.900 So we'll put links in the show notes to everything Hope City related and some other things in context of this and the other conversations that I've had with Jared here on the podcast. 00:52:34.040 --> 00:52:34.940 But we're going to land the plane. 00:52:35.440 --> 00:52:40.040 So for Jared, this is Jeff with the Church Digital, Digital Church Network and a whole bunch of other fun stuff. 00:52:40.440 --> 00:52:41.720 Thanks for jumping on the show here. 00:52:41.780 --> 00:52:43.080 We'll see you next time at the podcast. 00:52:43.220 --> 00:52:43.700 Y'all have a good day.