WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:05.960 When we look for God's image, look past the surface stuff, look past the things that annoy 00:00:05.960 --> 00:00:09.700 you, look past the things that offend you, look at the person. 00:00:10.220 --> 00:00:15.600 Maybe they're passionate, maybe they're articulate, but there's something about them 00:00:15.600 --> 00:00:18.220 that is a reflection of God. 00:00:18.300 --> 00:00:24.740 When we find that and acknowledge it to them, like I had somebody one time who was going 00:00:24.740 --> 00:00:29.660 off on a political rant, and I didn't even bring up politics, but he was going off on 00:00:29.660 --> 00:00:33.400 this political rant, and it was like, if I had hair, it would be blowing backwards. 00:00:33.580 --> 00:00:38.860 It was just like, you know, hitting me, and I just looked at him and I said, man, you have 00:00:38.860 --> 00:00:41.120 the most amazing God-given passion. 00:00:41.780 --> 00:00:43.480 Welcome to the Church Digital Podcast. 00:00:44.220 --> 00:00:49.440 Through this podcast, we'll talk about the technological innovations within the church, but more than 00:00:49.440 --> 00:00:52.740 tech for tech itself, we'll address deeper questions. 00:00:53.080 --> 00:00:55.480 Is disciple-making possible digitally? 00:00:56.400 --> 00:00:58.480 How should we approach the digital mission field? 00:00:59.320 --> 00:01:02.000 Can a biblically grounded church operate in digital space? 00:01:02.740 --> 00:01:05.040 Oh, and where does the metaverse fit into all this? 00:01:05.780 --> 00:01:10.020 Whether you're a big or small church, an established church, or a startup church plant, 00:01:10.760 --> 00:01:15.680 the Church Digital's goal is to help churches like yours learn to be a multiplying church, 00:01:16.280 --> 00:01:17.660 digitally and physically. 00:01:18.240 --> 00:01:19.140 Our heart? 00:01:19.640 --> 00:01:24.580 That churches like yours will discover a newfound focus on disciple-making that will revolutionize 00:01:24.580 --> 00:01:25.340 your church. 00:01:25.880 --> 00:01:28.660 And now, here's your host, Jeff Reed. 00:01:29.120 --> 00:01:32.260 All right, hey, we got episode 212 of the Church Digital Podcast. 00:01:32.460 --> 00:01:33.660 I'm excited about this podcast. 00:01:33.800 --> 00:01:35.020 I'm wearing my Boba Fett t-shirt. 00:01:35.360 --> 00:01:36.260 We're talking Disney. 00:01:36.340 --> 00:01:37.200 It's going to be great stuff. 00:01:37.280 --> 00:01:41.660 By the way, so not a Mando fan, but that's a much different conversation than what we're 00:01:41.660 --> 00:01:43.380 going to have here today. 00:01:43.500 --> 00:01:46.120 I'm really excited about some of these shifts and the guests that we've got. 00:01:46.200 --> 00:01:48.780 I said shifts, S-H-I-F-T-S. 00:01:48.880 --> 00:01:52.280 Just want to make sure that was clear coming through the podcast. 00:01:52.600 --> 00:01:54.360 No, I don't play that on the podcast. 00:01:54.480 --> 00:01:54.700 We're good. 00:01:55.020 --> 00:01:58.040 But listen, hey, hey, sneak peek podcast audience. 00:01:58.580 --> 00:02:06.720 On Tuesday, April 19th, 2 p.m., we're making some big announcements for the Church Digital, 00:02:06.820 --> 00:02:10.780 for Digital Church Network, and for many of you, I think this is going to be a game changer 00:02:10.780 --> 00:02:11.480 for your ministry. 00:02:11.480 --> 00:02:18.300 So, if you are part of FAM, you're welcome to join us, 2 p.m. Eastern on FAM. 00:02:18.460 --> 00:02:19.020 Join in there. 00:02:19.140 --> 00:02:21.740 It's fam.digitalchurch.network. 00:02:21.900 --> 00:02:24.460 If you are not part of FAM, what are you waiting for? 00:02:24.820 --> 00:02:25.780 Jump in there. 00:02:25.860 --> 00:02:32.980 The announcement's going to be in FAM, fam.digitalchurch.network, and hear this announcement as it's coming 00:02:32.980 --> 00:02:38.460 Tuesday, April 19th, 2 p.m. Eastern. 00:02:38.680 --> 00:02:39.240 Good stuff. 00:02:39.240 --> 00:02:41.720 We'll make some other noise on social and things. 00:02:41.800 --> 00:02:46.020 But if you want to get this sneak peek, the early announcement, you want to hear it right 00:02:46.020 --> 00:02:47.640 there, direct on FAM. 00:02:48.260 --> 00:02:51.240 Well, I tell you what, I'm excited about today's guest. 00:02:51.480 --> 00:02:53.020 We brought him here on the podcast before. 00:02:53.440 --> 00:02:59.740 I had the luxury of bringing him in to speak at the Exponential in Orlando, just maybe a 00:02:59.740 --> 00:03:01.040 month or so ago at this point. 00:03:01.620 --> 00:03:06.980 And to be honest, I brought him in to talk about maybe 10 minutes, and dude ended up talking 00:03:06.980 --> 00:03:09.740 for like 30 or 40, and it was powerful, it was meaningful. 00:03:09.880 --> 00:03:13.480 And at the end of it, I was like, hey, I want to do a podcast on everything you just said, 00:03:13.560 --> 00:03:16.840 because it's so rich of what he was getting into. 00:03:16.960 --> 00:03:22.600 And so we're bringing into the conversation, Stephen Barr, who's the leader of Cast Member 00:03:22.600 --> 00:03:22.980 Church. 00:03:22.980 --> 00:03:28.580 You may remember back from earlier conversations, put the link in the show notes, but he has a 00:03:28.580 --> 00:03:33.160 church that literally operates to reach Disney cast members. 00:03:33.160 --> 00:03:36.640 That's code word within Disney for employees. 00:03:37.000 --> 00:03:38.660 And he's got a number of books. 00:03:39.080 --> 00:03:40.180 One's getting ready to come out. 00:03:40.220 --> 00:03:41.620 He's in the process of writing another one. 00:03:42.060 --> 00:03:47.360 And really, I'm just really interested in digging in to this conversation here as we're 00:03:47.360 --> 00:03:47.740 talking. 00:03:47.840 --> 00:03:49.560 Well, we'll get into that in a little bit. 00:03:49.620 --> 00:03:56.760 But a lot of these shifts of how we as leaders, we as Christians, we as the church need to be 00:03:56.760 --> 00:03:57.780 thinking differently. 00:03:57.920 --> 00:04:01.520 So, hey, Stephen, man, thanks for jumping on the show again and being part of this. 00:04:01.840 --> 00:04:02.280 Thanks, Jeff. 00:04:02.280 --> 00:04:03.460 It's great to be here again. 00:04:03.780 --> 00:04:04.100 Awesome. 00:04:04.200 --> 00:04:04.480 Love it. 00:04:04.740 --> 00:04:08.980 So right off the bat, I'm just curious, like this is a contextualization type of thing. 00:04:09.120 --> 00:04:13.800 You don't, your title is leader, you know, maybe visionary leader is probably a little 00:04:13.800 --> 00:04:19.420 more accurate to what you type typically sounds like you do, but you don't take the title pastor. 00:04:19.680 --> 00:04:22.720 Like, I'm just curious, like what's coming to the mindset? 00:04:22.940 --> 00:04:23.740 Why do you do that? 00:04:23.940 --> 00:04:26.620 Well, first of all, I really don't consider myself to be a pastor. 00:04:27.060 --> 00:04:31.340 I'm not really a shepherd, although people will argue that with me. 00:04:31.400 --> 00:04:34.280 But I don't feel like one, but that's beside the point. 00:04:34.280 --> 00:04:40.920 The reason I chose leader, I was lead pastor for a long time, but I realized that our mission 00:04:40.920 --> 00:04:46.380 field, we serve a mission field that does not have a church context. 00:04:46.740 --> 00:04:48.420 They don't have a church background. 00:04:49.020 --> 00:04:55.220 And so the word pastor can, it can immediately raise flags to certain people. 00:04:56.000 --> 00:05:00.860 And so in Disney, the way the structure is there, there are leaders. 00:05:01.360 --> 00:05:07.020 And so the easiest way to connect people and help them contextualize what I do is to tell 00:05:07.020 --> 00:05:09.320 them that I'm the leader of cast member church. 00:05:09.360 --> 00:05:10.360 And they're like, oh, okay. 00:05:10.540 --> 00:05:14.200 That makes sense in their Disney speak, so to say. 00:05:14.200 --> 00:05:17.360 So yeah, I'm comfortable with that. 00:05:17.480 --> 00:05:18.160 I do pastor. 00:05:18.460 --> 00:05:22.960 I mean, I'm a, yeah, I'm more of like a visionary catalyst, I guess would be the real thing. 00:05:23.140 --> 00:05:25.140 But hey, leader covers it all. 00:05:25.220 --> 00:05:26.600 So I just stick with that. 00:05:26.880 --> 00:05:27.340 That's great. 00:05:27.340 --> 00:05:31.700 And you can go back, like there's, there's a whole conversation that I had with, with 00:05:31.700 --> 00:05:36.660 Steven talking about cast member church and an older episode links in the show notes. 00:05:36.660 --> 00:05:43.940 But we went into great detail talking about the idea of operating a digital church, a discipleship 00:05:43.940 --> 00:05:49.360 movement that's literally reaching international as so many of these, these employees are, are 00:05:49.360 --> 00:05:51.260 scattered across the planet. 00:05:51.260 --> 00:05:54.240 And so some really fascinating stories. 00:05:54.240 --> 00:06:02.040 We dig in deeply into the context of, of doing a church aimed specifically at a Disney cast 00:06:02.040 --> 00:06:07.060 member, at former Disney cast members, at Disney employees, and kind of what that, that 00:06:07.060 --> 00:06:07.660 balance is. 00:06:07.700 --> 00:06:11.240 And you can even like, look at the art, the, uh, the logo and it like, looks like a Mickey 00:06:11.240 --> 00:06:14.060 mouse, kind of the hidden Mickey head with the ears. 00:06:14.060 --> 00:06:18.340 And, and like, there's all sorts of contextualizations that, that you go through. 00:06:18.340 --> 00:06:22.580 But for this conversation, really what, uh, well, actually, you know what, Steven, let's 00:06:22.580 --> 00:06:23.780 just give you the opportunity up front. 00:06:23.940 --> 00:06:28.560 You're writing, um, you wrote a book, Kingdom Influence, you're, you're, you're working right 00:06:28.560 --> 00:06:30.920 now on a second book, Irresistible. 00:06:31.040 --> 00:06:35.340 Why don't you talk a little bit about Kingdom Influence and then also set up the Irresistible 00:06:35.340 --> 00:06:35.580 book. 00:06:35.660 --> 00:06:37.480 Let's just talk about the books right up front. 00:06:37.680 --> 00:06:38.180 Well, thank you. 00:06:38.180 --> 00:06:41.820 Um, Kingdom Influence is a book that I've been writing for, well, I've been writing it for 00:06:41.820 --> 00:06:45.260 10 years, to be honest with you, but, uh, cause that's how long cast member churches 00:06:45.260 --> 00:06:45.760 existed. 00:06:45.760 --> 00:06:50.980 But we finally got to the point, uh, about a year ago where we, we kind of started realizing 00:06:50.980 --> 00:06:54.700 we know what we're doing, although that's a dangerous thing to say, because as soon as 00:06:54.700 --> 00:06:56.780 you think you know what you're doing, everything changes. 00:06:56.780 --> 00:07:04.040 But, um, but we just, we just realized that, um, the church in general, capital C church, 00:07:04.040 --> 00:07:07.720 really doesn't have a problem with articulating the gospel. 00:07:07.780 --> 00:07:16.120 Uh, the problem we have is we don't have the humility to live the gospel in such a way that 00:07:16.120 --> 00:07:17.880 it brings credibility to the gospel. 00:07:18.200 --> 00:07:25.260 And so what we discovered is evangelism is certainly articulating the gospel, but it's 00:07:25.260 --> 00:07:30.660 about living it out in such a way that it makes it contagious and that people want to 00:07:30.660 --> 00:07:31.040 be around. 00:07:31.140 --> 00:07:32.040 They want to know more. 00:07:32.720 --> 00:07:36.940 And, you know, when I, when we first started cast member church, we, we came at it with 00:07:36.940 --> 00:07:42.500 traditional ways, approaches, attractional type stuff and nothing, nothing simply because, 00:07:42.600 --> 00:07:45.360 well, part of the reason is because the Disney is the show. 00:07:45.460 --> 00:07:51.940 You can't, you can't out Disney, Disney, but, um, but we also realized that, uh, the one 00:07:51.940 --> 00:07:55.240 thing that Disney couldn't offer cast members was relationship. 00:07:55.900 --> 00:08:00.260 And I've learned in talking to hundreds of pastors that we're just not good at it. 00:08:00.340 --> 00:08:02.440 We're not good at relationship because it's messy. 00:08:02.660 --> 00:08:03.620 It's inconvenient. 00:08:04.160 --> 00:08:10.280 And we like, as, and I've learned this from my European cast members, Americans like the 00:08:10.280 --> 00:08:10.940 quick fix. 00:08:11.280 --> 00:08:12.540 We like the quick win. 00:08:13.000 --> 00:08:19.300 And the problem is, is leading someone to Jesus is something that moves at what I call 00:08:19.300 --> 00:08:20.180 the pace of grace. 00:08:20.400 --> 00:08:21.500 It's very slow. 00:08:21.900 --> 00:08:23.380 And it's, it takes time. 00:08:23.460 --> 00:08:25.940 It takes investment, but it is worth it. 00:08:26.000 --> 00:08:31.380 And so I wrote a book that simply simplified, this is what we can do. 00:08:31.480 --> 00:08:33.240 This is what we can learn to do really well. 00:08:33.240 --> 00:08:39.900 And we have identified three keys, proven, proven keys that reveal Jesus in a skeptical and 00:08:39.900 --> 00:08:40.680 suspicious world. 00:08:41.320 --> 00:08:44.460 And so by going through this book, you'll learn these keys. 00:08:44.560 --> 00:08:45.860 You'll learn how to apply them. 00:08:45.960 --> 00:08:50.820 And you'll discover that wherever you go, whether it's the grocery store, the car line at the 00:08:50.820 --> 00:08:57.920 school, wherever you are, you have an opportunity to reveal Jesus in a way that is not weird, that 00:08:57.920 --> 00:09:04.000 is not uncomfortable, and yet is appealing to the people that you are spending time with. 00:09:04.240 --> 00:09:06.200 So that book comes out in just a few weeks. 00:09:06.680 --> 00:09:11.080 So you can look for that kingdom influence on Amazon. 00:09:11.520 --> 00:09:16.040 And I think that we will definitely, I'll be making a lot of noise about that when that 00:09:16.040 --> 00:09:20.360 comes out because I'm excited about that and even highlighting some of the things that you're 00:09:20.360 --> 00:09:20.600 doing. 00:09:20.700 --> 00:09:23.180 Like, I just, I think that's, that's incredible. 00:09:23.760 --> 00:09:27.620 Now let's, let's pivot here because I, you know, and I knew you as kingdom influence. 00:09:27.620 --> 00:09:32.300 I bring you into Orlando and, and, and, and I wanted you to speak about the uniqueness of, 00:09:32.300 --> 00:09:36.500 you know, King, your church of what you're doing through Disney cast member. 00:09:36.680 --> 00:09:41.200 And instead you went on a, you know, I don't want to say diatribe because it was incredibly 00:09:41.200 --> 00:09:45.060 helpful, but it was this, this long monologue on these pivots. 00:09:45.680 --> 00:09:48.880 And, and, and as you talked about it, I was like, oh my gosh, like, this is, this is great. 00:09:48.920 --> 00:09:50.940 And you're like, oh yeah, by the way, I'm writing a book on this. 00:09:51.020 --> 00:09:52.800 So I was like, you haven't even published your first one. 00:09:52.880 --> 00:09:53.700 You're writing a second one. 00:09:53.860 --> 00:09:57.940 Like, I mean, you're like the, the, the modern version of Max Lucado here, just spitting 00:09:57.940 --> 00:09:58.320 him out. 00:09:59.400 --> 00:10:06.240 But I just, I wanted to really highlight these nine influences, these nine shifts, these 00:10:06.240 --> 00:10:09.140 pivots that, that are happening in, in context. 00:10:09.140 --> 00:10:11.360 So maybe set the stage here a little bit. 00:10:11.360 --> 00:10:13.980 Let's talk about this, this new book, this new idea. 00:10:15.320 --> 00:10:21.300 You know, a working title, Irresistible, Shaping a Culture of Kingdom Influence in a Skeptical 00:10:21.300 --> 00:10:23.240 and a Suspicious World. 00:10:23.460 --> 00:10:25.780 So what, where did this idea come from? 00:10:26.020 --> 00:10:28.020 Well, it came from the first book I just talked about. 00:10:28.220 --> 00:10:36.100 Kingdom Influence is the, is kind of the everyday man's book to learn how to, to be contagious 00:10:36.100 --> 00:10:38.380 in a skeptical society. 00:10:38.380 --> 00:10:45.000 But then I started realizing that, you know, the church is kind of over, is sitting over 00:10:45.000 --> 00:10:46.100 here in one place. 00:10:46.300 --> 00:10:51.780 And we as Cast Member Church have found a different way of doing ministry. 00:10:52.180 --> 00:10:55.940 And I realized that there were pivots that were going to have to happen if you're going 00:10:55.940 --> 00:11:00.980 to lead a community that's going to have a kingdom influence. 00:11:00.980 --> 00:11:07.180 And so we just started identifying things that, I mean, I could have written a hundred pivots 00:11:07.180 --> 00:11:08.680 that need, need to happen. 00:11:08.680 --> 00:11:14.820 But we focused on the ones that make a church irresistible, that makes the, that actually 00:11:14.820 --> 00:11:17.640 Christians could, can be irresistible people. 00:11:17.800 --> 00:11:19.780 We don't have to turn the world off. 00:11:19.820 --> 00:11:23.980 We don't have to be known as hypocrites and judgmental and all that. 00:11:23.980 --> 00:11:27.620 We actually have something incredible called the good news. 00:11:27.880 --> 00:11:33.940 And if we're living it, uh, and by making these pivots, we're going to actually, by being 00:11:33.940 --> 00:11:36.560 irresistible, drawing people closer to Jesus. 00:11:36.560 --> 00:11:41.740 So we identified nine pivots, uh, over, over the last 10 years. 00:11:41.740 --> 00:11:43.760 And again, these are proven. 00:11:43.860 --> 00:11:45.320 These aren't just theory. 00:11:45.320 --> 00:11:49.780 These are things that we have, have put into practice and we've seen results. 00:11:50.160 --> 00:11:53.140 And, um, so yeah, that's, that's kind of what it comes down to. 00:11:53.140 --> 00:11:58.520 But we realized that as I would share these pivots with people, um, there was a lot of 00:11:58.520 --> 00:12:01.380 hesitation because, um, it's a paradigm shift. 00:12:01.460 --> 00:12:03.280 It is a big paradigm shift. 00:12:03.280 --> 00:12:06.940 Just, just as you well know that we're, we're looking at paradigm shifts just over the last 00:12:06.940 --> 00:12:10.060 couple of years that churches have to take an honest look at. 00:12:10.540 --> 00:12:16.160 And regardless of whether they're, they're physical or digital or fidgetal or, or any of 00:12:16.160 --> 00:12:21.080 that, there's some heart stuff behind all of that, that we're going to have to shift. 00:12:21.520 --> 00:12:26.620 And, um, and so we came down to these nine things, but the first thing I realized is there's 00:12:26.620 --> 00:12:32.300 that question that Jesus asked, uh, the, um, the, the paralytic at the pool of Bethesda. 00:12:32.660 --> 00:12:34.460 And he said, do you want to get well? 00:12:35.220 --> 00:12:40.680 And of course the, you know, and the, and the, he, and that man responded the way a lot of 00:12:40.680 --> 00:12:41.300 churches do. 00:12:41.400 --> 00:12:42.520 Well, you don't understand. 00:12:42.640 --> 00:12:44.900 We've got this, we've got this, we've got all these other things. 00:12:44.900 --> 00:12:45.940 And it's like, wait a minute. 00:12:46.260 --> 00:12:47.960 That's not the question Jesus is asking. 00:12:48.480 --> 00:12:50.660 He's asking, do you want to get well? 00:12:51.420 --> 00:12:55.660 And so if a church is going, wait a minute, we're not contagious in this community. 00:12:55.660 --> 00:13:00.720 We are not irresistible among skeptical, suspicious, cynical people. 00:13:01.240 --> 00:13:02.500 How can we do that? 00:13:03.000 --> 00:13:04.420 That's where the nine pivots were born. 00:13:04.820 --> 00:13:08.520 I know the word pivot is even scary, or not scary, but it's, it's been over, it's been 00:13:08.520 --> 00:13:08.980 overused. 00:13:09.060 --> 00:13:09.580 It's been weighted. 00:13:09.840 --> 00:13:10.780 I say the word pivot. 00:13:10.860 --> 00:13:15.320 I say the word shift and, and, you know, pastor's eyes glaze over at this point, this desire 00:13:15.320 --> 00:13:18.660 to go back to, to, you know, the way, the way that it was. 00:13:18.720 --> 00:13:23.220 But as, as we talk through this, hopefully we're recognizing, Hey, this isn't, this isn't 00:13:23.220 --> 00:13:25.000 like techno lot. 00:13:25.060 --> 00:13:26.100 This isn't technology. 00:13:26.100 --> 00:13:28.420 This isn't like a technological jerk, uh, jump. 00:13:28.500 --> 00:13:30.220 We're not talking metaverse. 00:13:30.320 --> 00:13:36.140 We're not talking like, this is a very practical approach, like almost a, a, a introspective 00:13:36.140 --> 00:13:40.320 soul examining approach to how we do ministry. 00:13:40.320 --> 00:13:44.660 And maybe this is even an opportunity for, for some of you that are listening this to, to 00:13:44.660 --> 00:13:51.340 be introspective in your own ministries and how, uh, the, the people in your church view 00:13:51.340 --> 00:13:52.940 you, view your ministry. 00:13:53.040 --> 00:13:53.800 An interesting stat. 00:13:53.920 --> 00:13:56.280 And actually, Stephen, I don't know that you know this one. 00:13:56.320 --> 00:14:02.600 This actually came out Barna, maybe a month or so ago, uh, 57% of people that are active 00:14:02.600 --> 00:14:05.500 within their church, strongly trust church leadership. 00:14:06.220 --> 00:14:07.980 Um, now that's, that's not a bad stat. 00:14:08.120 --> 00:14:09.720 Uh, the reciprocal is a little scary to me. 00:14:10.100 --> 00:14:18.600 43% of people that are actively involved in church do not strongly trust church leadership. 00:14:18.600 --> 00:14:20.420 Now, I mean, there's different tiers. 00:14:20.740 --> 00:14:22.660 There's, yeah, there's strongly trust. 00:14:22.780 --> 00:14:27.780 There's somewhat, and I don't know what the different levels were, but if we're talking 00:14:27.780 --> 00:14:33.960 about the pastor, the senior leadership of church that is designed to lead people spiritually, 00:14:33.960 --> 00:14:38.520 the fact that those people don't strongly trust is a little scary. 00:14:38.520 --> 00:14:43.180 And so I think as we're looking at some of these shifts, this is an opportunity for, for 00:14:43.180 --> 00:14:46.660 all of us to maybe stop and examine, um, how we fit. 00:14:46.720 --> 00:14:48.620 Maybe there's some things that, that we're strong at. 00:14:48.680 --> 00:14:53.000 Maybe there's some things that we're weak at and need to adjust. 00:14:53.000 --> 00:14:54.760 So, hey, let's, let's kick this off. 00:14:55.080 --> 00:14:58.580 Let's, you know, I've got the list in front of me because, hey, I'm, I'm, I'm cool like 00:14:58.580 --> 00:14:58.780 that. 00:14:58.820 --> 00:14:59.940 Stephen was great to share it. 00:15:00.020 --> 00:15:02.940 Uh, but let's, let's go through some of this and see where we get. 00:15:03.020 --> 00:15:06.760 So number one here, uh, I've got mission over me. 00:15:06.960 --> 00:15:10.000 So, uh, mission over me, tell, tell me a little bit about that one, Stephen. 00:15:10.000 --> 00:15:12.960 Well, that's, I mean, that's the, that's kind of the high hurdle. 00:15:13.120 --> 00:15:16.220 We've got to get that one out of the way first because it's such a paradigm shift. 00:15:16.680 --> 00:15:22.900 And, um, it really comes down to, you know, there's two scriptures that I rely on when it 00:15:22.900 --> 00:15:23.260 comes to that. 00:15:23.380 --> 00:15:29.800 One is where Jesus said, um, take up your cross, take up your cross, which means, uh, we know 00:15:29.800 --> 00:15:30.780 what that looks like. 00:15:30.900 --> 00:15:34.940 Um, uh, just being here on Good Friday, we know what that looks like. 00:15:35.260 --> 00:15:36.880 Uh, it means surrender. 00:15:37.120 --> 00:15:42.200 It means giving up what, what Jesus prayed in the garden of Gethsemane, not my will, but 00:15:42.200 --> 00:15:42.900 yours be done. 00:15:43.020 --> 00:15:46.220 So there's a mission that is in front of us. 00:15:46.220 --> 00:15:52.100 And it's so easy as leaders to focus on the people in our congregation that are saying, well, 00:15:52.100 --> 00:15:53.640 I want this, I want this. 00:15:53.640 --> 00:15:55.920 And if I don't get this and I'm going to go somewhere else. 00:15:56.380 --> 00:15:59.380 And of course, that's a culture of consumerism. 00:15:59.540 --> 00:16:05.220 If we feed that almost like a buffet, we put a buffet out as, you know, try to please 00:16:05.220 --> 00:16:05.800 everybody. 00:16:06.340 --> 00:16:08.400 We end up missing the mission. 00:16:09.100 --> 00:16:15.860 And so we've got to start talking about the hard pivot of, look, this is not about you. 00:16:16.360 --> 00:16:20.960 Yes, the church exists, you know, for, to equip you, to empower you, to give you a family 00:16:20.960 --> 00:16:27.600 and all, but it's really about moving out and being empowered to be salt and light in the 00:16:27.600 --> 00:16:28.360 world around us. 00:16:28.780 --> 00:16:30.820 And so that's kind of like, that's the first one. 00:16:30.900 --> 00:16:36.620 We can't even get into the other eight pivots if we can't get past mission over me. 00:16:36.800 --> 00:16:38.960 And I'm not saying that your needs aren't important. 00:16:39.160 --> 00:16:43.700 I'm just simply saying that we need to shift over to mission over me. 00:16:44.560 --> 00:16:51.100 Every one of these that pivots, I'm not saying that the one that we're shifting from is bad. 00:16:51.280 --> 00:16:54.960 I'm just saying that we focus on that too much and we need to make the shift. 00:16:55.080 --> 00:16:57.780 So mission obviously is at the top of the list. 00:16:58.240 --> 00:16:58.940 That's well said. 00:16:59.020 --> 00:17:02.680 I used to have a bumper sticker and actually I used to run a Christian bookstore. 00:17:02.880 --> 00:17:07.160 I used to run a clothing store called C2A, like I don't get too deep in the weeds here, 00:17:07.640 --> 00:17:10.700 but it was a bumper sticker and it was John 330. 00:17:11.380 --> 00:17:14.420 And it's, you know, it's not about me. 00:17:14.940 --> 00:17:18.620 And just like having that as we're talking about, it's more about the mission. 00:17:18.620 --> 00:17:21.560 It's more about being humble in those moments. 00:17:21.840 --> 00:17:27.560 Like that just resonates so strongly, you know, even a couple of decades later. 00:17:27.800 --> 00:17:30.260 So number one, mission over me. 00:17:30.360 --> 00:17:31.040 What well said there. 00:17:31.320 --> 00:17:33.180 Number two, this is interesting. 00:17:33.380 --> 00:17:35.500 Human beings over labels. 00:17:35.620 --> 00:17:36.840 Human beings over labels. 00:17:36.980 --> 00:17:37.760 Talk to me about this one. 00:17:37.880 --> 00:17:38.180 All right. 00:17:38.220 --> 00:17:42.340 Well, that's, this one's kind of obvious, especially in the age of social media. 00:17:42.960 --> 00:17:45.680 We put people into categories immediately. 00:17:45.680 --> 00:17:50.100 When we meet somebody, we find out if they're with us or against us, 00:17:50.100 --> 00:17:54.460 if they're left or if they're right, if they're vaxxed or unvaxxed, if they're, 00:17:54.520 --> 00:17:57.460 I mean, we immediately classify people. 00:17:57.600 --> 00:18:02.420 And even to the point where, are you Baptist or are you Pentecostal? 00:18:02.560 --> 00:18:05.000 Are you, and, and it's a human thing to do. 00:18:05.100 --> 00:18:11.860 We, we categorize people, but we, because of those labels, we immediately are prejudiced. 00:18:12.120 --> 00:18:16.000 We immediately are prejudiced by our own, our own thinking. 00:18:16.000 --> 00:18:22.360 And I'm looking at Jesus and I'm going, he treated every person like a human being. 00:18:22.360 --> 00:18:26.880 I mean, the Samaritan, uh, the good, the parable of the good Samaritan is a perfect example. 00:18:27.680 --> 00:18:31.620 But I, there's a great little story that takes place in World War I. 00:18:31.760 --> 00:18:38.140 And it's called the, the, the Christmas, the famous Christmas day truce, where Germans were fighting the French and the English. 00:18:38.220 --> 00:18:43.820 And on Christmas day, they agreed to a truce and they started popping their heads above the trenches. 00:18:43.820 --> 00:18:47.420 And long story short, they kind of came out and talked to each other. 00:18:47.540 --> 00:18:49.220 There was a soccer ball being kicked around. 00:18:49.220 --> 00:18:51.380 They were showing pictures of their families. 00:18:52.040 --> 00:18:58.160 And one of the soldiers commented on the fact that when the truce was over, he realized he wasn't facing an enemy. 00:18:58.500 --> 00:19:00.260 He was facing himself. 00:19:01.240 --> 00:19:12.060 And when we start to see people as human beings made in the image of God, regardless of what they believe, regardless if they offend you or what, they are made in the image of God. 00:19:12.180 --> 00:19:14.420 We have to start there. 00:19:14.720 --> 00:19:20.680 And when we do, it's amazing how we can discover what I call the essence of a person. 00:19:20.820 --> 00:19:22.080 It's that reflection of God. 00:19:22.560 --> 00:19:23.940 And that's where we can start. 00:19:24.040 --> 00:19:25.420 But we've got to stop categorizing. 00:19:25.580 --> 00:19:31.220 We've got, we have to stop labeling people and just simply look at them as human beings created by God. 00:19:31.500 --> 00:19:32.520 How is that empowered? 00:19:32.700 --> 00:19:33.640 Let's just follow up on that. 00:19:33.720 --> 00:19:35.680 How, how is this human beings over labels? 00:19:35.820 --> 00:19:38.240 I mean, you're literally Disney cast member church. 00:19:38.240 --> 00:19:43.880 You're working with people, all sorts of people all over the country, all over the planet, different slices of life. 00:19:44.140 --> 00:19:51.200 How does a human being approach, how does that help you maybe reach some of your diversified audience? 00:19:51.600 --> 00:19:55.800 Like, I would imagine you're dealing with all sorts of different labels, right? 00:19:55.880 --> 00:19:58.720 And so, like, what does that look like practically for you? 00:19:58.780 --> 00:20:04.800 I have, you know, at my dining room table, every perspective and persuasion has sat there. 00:20:05.360 --> 00:20:10.340 And we've had over 1,200 Disney cast members sit at our dining room table and encounter Jesus. 00:20:10.840 --> 00:20:16.180 And the thing is, is when we look for the, I call it the essence. 00:20:16.640 --> 00:20:18.880 Essence is recognizing the image of God. 00:20:19.100 --> 00:20:23.900 When we look for God's image, look past, look past the surface stuff. 00:20:24.040 --> 00:20:25.340 Look past the things that annoy you. 00:20:25.460 --> 00:20:26.640 Look past the things that offend you. 00:20:27.160 --> 00:20:28.860 Look at the person. 00:20:29.380 --> 00:20:30.260 Maybe they're passionate. 00:20:30.860 --> 00:20:32.820 Maybe they're articulate. 00:20:33.080 --> 00:20:37.380 But there's something about them that is a reflection of God. 00:20:37.460 --> 00:20:41.340 When we find that and acknowledge it to them. 00:20:41.720 --> 00:20:45.680 Like, I had somebody one time who was going off on a political rant. 00:20:46.200 --> 00:20:49.640 And I didn't even bring up politics, but he was going off on this political rant. 00:20:49.720 --> 00:20:52.560 And it was like, if I had hair, it would be blowing backwards. 00:20:52.740 --> 00:20:54.240 It was just like, you know, hitting me. 00:20:54.840 --> 00:21:00.280 And I just looked at him and I said, man, you have the most amazing God-given passion. 00:21:01.080 --> 00:21:02.720 And he just stopped. 00:21:03.420 --> 00:21:05.760 And he goes, oh, oh, wow. 00:21:06.420 --> 00:21:07.380 Well, thanks. 00:21:08.600 --> 00:21:11.240 It's acknowledging the image of God in a person. 00:21:11.240 --> 00:21:15.880 I have never had a person, regardless of what they believe about God or don't believe about God, 00:21:16.200 --> 00:21:22.860 be offended that I acknowledged God's image in them by something that was apparent. 00:21:23.160 --> 00:21:26.100 That changes everything because now that person feels valued. 00:21:27.000 --> 00:21:28.240 That person feels valued. 00:21:28.360 --> 00:21:34.320 And value is really the first step in building a relationship that says, you actually, you matter to me. 00:21:34.780 --> 00:21:39.120 Value is the first step in building relationships. 00:21:39.360 --> 00:21:41.180 I mean, like, that's the takeaway quote. 00:21:41.280 --> 00:21:42.600 That's the pull-out quote right there. 00:21:42.700 --> 00:21:44.480 That was well said with that one. 00:21:44.560 --> 00:21:45.500 All right, number three. 00:21:45.820 --> 00:21:46.700 I need to write that down. 00:21:46.800 --> 00:21:47.240 Okay, go ahead. 00:21:49.820 --> 00:21:50.820 It's going to be online. 00:21:50.980 --> 00:21:52.080 Some people are going to listen to it. 00:21:52.120 --> 00:21:52.860 So we'll share. 00:21:52.940 --> 00:21:53.900 You can pull it from there. 00:21:54.160 --> 00:21:54.700 That's good. 00:21:55.120 --> 00:21:57.140 That's the byline of your book, right? 00:21:57.240 --> 00:21:58.180 We will work that in. 00:21:59.340 --> 00:22:00.640 Number three is beautiful. 00:22:00.640 --> 00:22:02.900 Number three, the one over the crowd. 00:22:03.000 --> 00:22:04.460 The one over the crowd. 00:22:04.680 --> 00:22:06.100 So what about this? 00:22:06.300 --> 00:22:06.780 Oh, yeah. 00:22:07.160 --> 00:22:07.560 Oh, yeah. 00:22:07.800 --> 00:22:09.780 Well, this is kind of obvious. 00:22:10.500 --> 00:22:16.580 We, our metrics in our churches are based on crowds. 00:22:17.760 --> 00:22:19.280 Buildings, budgets, butts, and seats. 00:22:19.880 --> 00:22:24.200 And so we've always figured the bigger, the better. 00:22:24.860 --> 00:22:26.620 And again, I'm not against the crowd. 00:22:26.740 --> 00:22:27.860 Jesus taught the crowds. 00:22:27.860 --> 00:22:33.600 But Jesus did also some of the most amazing stuff in scripture one-on-one. 00:22:34.200 --> 00:22:35.060 Woman at the well. 00:22:35.220 --> 00:22:36.480 The woman with the issue of bleeding. 00:22:37.000 --> 00:22:37.560 Zacchaeus. 00:22:37.840 --> 00:22:38.320 Matthew. 00:22:38.700 --> 00:22:39.260 Nicodemus. 00:22:39.680 --> 00:22:48.260 It's these one-on-one conversations that really, where we see, oh, the character of Jesus on display. 00:22:48.780 --> 00:22:50.500 And I like to tell the story. 00:22:50.500 --> 00:23:00.180 There's this great little, it's on YouTube somewhere, but the 80s band Journey, of course, were huge in the 80s. 00:23:00.220 --> 00:23:02.400 They're kind of one of the quintessential bands of the 80s. 00:23:02.600 --> 00:23:08.260 And they tell the story about, they were at the peak of their success, and they had an album about ready to come out. 00:23:08.700 --> 00:23:13.700 And they had heard about this little boy in the hospital that had cancer. 00:23:14.260 --> 00:23:16.620 And his dream was to hear the next album. 00:23:16.820 --> 00:23:22.380 And so they all went to his hospital room, and they brought a Walkman, 80s. 00:23:22.920 --> 00:23:27.660 They brought a Walkman and had a cassette tape of their soon-to-be-released album. 00:23:27.780 --> 00:23:29.640 No one had heard it except the guys in the band. 00:23:30.140 --> 00:23:38.660 And they put it on, and the young little boy put the headphones on, and they all stood around his bed and watched him listen to this album. 00:23:39.260 --> 00:23:40.840 And he died the next day. 00:23:42.060 --> 00:23:46.200 And the guys in Journey, they will weep when they tell this story. 00:23:46.680 --> 00:23:50.680 But Journey, for them, the stadiums didn't matter. 00:23:51.420 --> 00:23:52.300 It was the one. 00:23:52.780 --> 00:23:54.200 It was the one person. 00:23:54.640 --> 00:23:56.960 And they felt like the album has done its job. 00:23:57.300 --> 00:23:58.600 It's already done its job. 00:23:59.060 --> 00:24:09.060 And I think we, as the church, we tend to, especially pastors, and I'm going to make fun because I are one, but in a general sense. 00:24:09.840 --> 00:24:13.600 But we think the crowd is it. 00:24:13.680 --> 00:24:16.460 That's the pinnacle of success. 00:24:16.960 --> 00:24:18.060 But it's not. 00:24:18.520 --> 00:24:27.540 We've discovered in Cast Member Church, it's sitting around a table at Starbucks over coffee, talking about the real things of life, going back and forth. 00:24:27.880 --> 00:24:30.500 And someone saying, you know, I'm not sure I believe that. 00:24:30.620 --> 00:24:31.180 Oh, okay. 00:24:31.260 --> 00:24:31.900 Well, tell me why. 00:24:32.380 --> 00:24:32.720 Tell me why. 00:24:32.760 --> 00:24:38.280 Rather than, and really looking at who they are, what their needs are. 00:24:38.740 --> 00:24:41.400 And that doesn't happen in a large room. 00:24:41.500 --> 00:24:43.560 That doesn't happen in rows. 00:24:44.080 --> 00:24:44.300 It happens. 00:24:44.680 --> 00:24:50.920 Jeff, even like this, you and I, one-on-one, even though there's people listening in, it's one-on-one. 00:24:51.360 --> 00:24:55.260 This is where Jesus really does his best work. 00:24:55.780 --> 00:25:04.420 And as we talk a lot about digital churches, and you and I have had this conversation, it's not macro, it's not megaphone, it's not yelling to crowds. 00:25:04.420 --> 00:25:12.340 In many ways, it's having these small conversations, these one-on-one, one-on-three, one-on-four, almost more as a whisper. 00:25:12.680 --> 00:25:20.220 And what's fascinating is actually, Stephen, you even said it here in this conversation today, where it's like, I've invited 1,200 people. 00:25:20.300 --> 00:25:23.260 1,200 people have sat at my table. 00:25:23.840 --> 00:25:26.320 And so that's not a 1,200-person table. 00:25:26.440 --> 00:25:29.060 At least I'm assuming you don't live in a house that big. 00:25:29.820 --> 00:25:36.700 It's probably a table of four, six, maybe eight, and it's having small conversations. 00:25:37.360 --> 00:25:49.280 And as we're wanting to be more effective in ministry, it's not growing into massive numbers that takes us beyond what we're capable of resourcing and discipling and multiplying. 00:25:49.940 --> 00:25:58.560 A friend of mine, Jim Tomberlin, has said, hey, we need to grow our church, not as big as possible, but grow to the point where it can multiply, multiply it, 00:25:59.060 --> 00:26:00.200 and then grow again some more. 00:26:00.200 --> 00:26:09.080 And it's about having these small conversations that allow us to get to the place of multiplying and seeing that generational growth happen. 00:26:09.460 --> 00:26:20.120 And that's also looking at when we have the conversations with the one, that's where we're also recognizing the image of God. 00:26:20.540 --> 00:26:22.080 That's all part of that essence thing. 00:26:22.140 --> 00:26:23.200 That doesn't happen in a crowd. 00:26:23.420 --> 00:26:28.540 It's hard to see the image of God on 1,000 people or even 75. 00:26:29.500 --> 00:26:37.920 It's when we focus on the one and we're listening and we're paying attention and we have one ear on the conversation and one ear on the Holy Spirit. 00:26:38.560 --> 00:26:41.900 And that's when that stuff starts to happen. 00:26:42.060 --> 00:26:43.620 And it's beautiful, but it takes time. 00:26:44.100 --> 00:26:45.300 And that's why it's a pivot. 00:26:45.760 --> 00:26:46.260 That's beautiful. 00:26:46.760 --> 00:26:48.360 The one over the crowd. 00:26:48.500 --> 00:26:51.420 Moving on, number four, acceptance over change. 00:26:51.760 --> 00:26:53.360 Acceptance over change. 00:26:53.580 --> 00:26:55.260 This is another good one, too. 00:26:55.500 --> 00:27:00.360 Yeah, this is a controversial one because people think that I'm getting into some dangerous waters here. 00:27:00.520 --> 00:27:02.800 But I'm going to make it real simple. 00:27:03.360 --> 00:27:07.900 Scripture says, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 00:27:08.780 --> 00:27:16.500 And so when we think about it, when I was at my worst, Jesus goes, I'm going to make you acceptable. 00:27:17.120 --> 00:27:18.240 That blows my mind. 00:27:18.540 --> 00:27:20.400 That absolutely blows my mind. 00:27:20.800 --> 00:27:28.260 And we have had this tendency to want people to change before we accept them. 00:27:28.980 --> 00:27:30.400 Acceptance doesn't mean endorsement. 00:27:30.680 --> 00:27:32.100 It doesn't mean you're celebrating. 00:27:32.300 --> 00:27:36.100 It just means that you meet them where they are. 00:27:36.520 --> 00:27:41.220 And I think a perfect example of that real quickly is when we look at the woman caught in adultery. 00:27:41.840 --> 00:27:45.740 And Jesus, we know what Jesus did, the writing in the sand and the things he said. 00:27:46.000 --> 00:27:49.160 But pay attention to the order that he did those things. 00:27:49.160 --> 00:27:52.820 The first thing he did was he dealt with the sins of the accusers. 00:27:53.480 --> 00:27:55.720 Number two is he forgave the woman. 00:27:56.220 --> 00:27:59.260 And number three, he told her to change the direction of her life. 00:27:59.680 --> 00:28:05.600 The problem is, is the church, look at social media, reverses it. 00:28:06.080 --> 00:28:10.420 Stop sinning, then I'll forgive you, and maybe I'll deal with my own stuff. 00:28:11.260 --> 00:28:16.240 And we've got to get back to Jesus' way where he meets a person where they are. 00:28:16.240 --> 00:28:20.620 And we have found that by just accepting a person in their brokenness, 00:28:20.680 --> 00:28:21.900 even if they don't think they're broken, 00:28:23.520 --> 00:28:27.560 but getting them to a place where they're attracted to be with us, 00:28:27.620 --> 00:28:32.420 where they find this, dare I say, irresistibility of who we are, 00:28:33.040 --> 00:28:35.360 that Jesus is going to do amazing things. 00:28:35.360 --> 00:28:37.680 But he's not going to do it if I'm pointing a finger in your face. 00:28:38.180 --> 00:28:39.960 And I'm not just talking about certain communities. 00:28:39.960 --> 00:28:41.260 I'm talking about everybody. 00:28:41.840 --> 00:28:47.260 We've got to start understanding that Jesus has already done the heavy lifting. 00:28:47.680 --> 00:28:54.060 We get to share the message and then let him pick up the heavy lifting again as we draw people close. 00:28:54.480 --> 00:28:56.460 You know, that's a beautiful pivot. 00:28:56.660 --> 00:29:00.740 That's a beautiful opportunity for us as the church to maybe reexamine what we're doing. 00:29:00.740 --> 00:29:05.040 And once again, that has absolutely nothing to do with technology. 00:29:05.500 --> 00:29:06.060 It's measurable. 00:29:06.940 --> 00:29:07.820 You can measure that. 00:29:08.340 --> 00:29:11.220 That's one of the things that we always say about, well, how do you measure this stuff? 00:29:11.820 --> 00:29:15.200 Hey, listen, are you seeing people be more accepting? 00:29:15.540 --> 00:29:19.200 Are you seeing them hang out with people that they normally wouldn't hang out with? 00:29:19.760 --> 00:29:20.720 That is measurable. 00:29:21.180 --> 00:29:24.680 And so these are things that we can kind of take the temperature on how these pivots are working. 00:29:25.020 --> 00:29:25.640 Totally, totally. 00:29:26.060 --> 00:29:29.060 Number five, empathy over explanations. 00:29:29.600 --> 00:29:30.660 Empathy over explanations. 00:29:31.320 --> 00:29:32.220 Great story. 00:29:32.660 --> 00:29:33.380 He's smiling. 00:29:33.500 --> 00:29:35.320 He's got a big grin thinking about this one. 00:29:35.460 --> 00:29:36.200 So yeah, go ahead. 00:29:36.200 --> 00:29:39.000 I love the stories that come with these. 00:29:39.460 --> 00:29:47.060 There was a woman who had a brain condition that would cause her to just drop, just collapse. 00:29:47.600 --> 00:29:49.900 And one day she was in a grocery store and that happened. 00:29:50.060 --> 00:29:50.880 She just collapsed. 00:29:51.320 --> 00:29:56.060 And she said that people immediately came to her aid and tried picking her up. 00:29:56.260 --> 00:30:00.520 And she says, the problem is with my condition, my brain wasn't ready to stand up. 00:30:00.780 --> 00:30:06.080 And she said, adults are very uncomfortable with seeing someone vulnerable laying on the 00:30:06.080 --> 00:30:07.120 floor, especially an adult. 00:30:07.560 --> 00:30:12.940 And she said, they were so quick to pick me up, but what I needed was for someone to get 00:30:12.940 --> 00:30:14.180 down on the floor with me. 00:30:14.940 --> 00:30:19.580 And I think what happens is we as a church are so quick to offer explanations. 00:30:20.440 --> 00:30:21.440 Read this book. 00:30:21.620 --> 00:30:22.540 Listen to this song. 00:30:22.640 --> 00:30:23.340 Here's the scripture. 00:30:24.060 --> 00:30:28.540 And we offer quick fixes, going back to that, what I was saying earlier, these quick fixes 00:30:28.540 --> 00:30:34.860 that really what Jesus is wanting us to do, and he did it at Lazarus's tomb, Jesus wept, 00:30:35.360 --> 00:30:40.680 is to get down on the ground with people, to get into their mess and just sit with them and go, 00:30:41.180 --> 00:30:42.440 this doesn't make sense. 00:30:42.980 --> 00:30:43.940 There is no explanation. 00:30:44.060 --> 00:30:50.440 You know, and just weep with them or hurt with them or even in their anger, carry that burden 00:30:50.440 --> 00:30:51.320 of anger with them. 00:30:51.440 --> 00:30:53.340 Let them know they're not alone. 00:30:54.080 --> 00:30:57.220 And Jesus is acquainted with every bit of our suffering. 00:30:57.340 --> 00:30:58.600 And he did that by choice. 00:30:59.540 --> 00:31:03.840 So we have to be willing to stop trying to fix everything. 00:31:03.960 --> 00:31:07.220 We're not, Jesus does, there's nothing in scripture that says we're called to fix anybody. 00:31:08.560 --> 00:31:11.300 We're just supposed to introduce them to the one who can. 00:31:12.220 --> 00:31:19.820 So that happens by getting down on the ground and being willing to hurt, to be willing to 00:31:19.820 --> 00:31:21.180 say, no, it's not fair. 00:31:21.740 --> 00:31:23.740 Yes, I can understand why you're angry at God. 00:31:23.740 --> 00:31:30.320 I can understand, and really take on their pain, take on whatever it is they're feeling. 00:31:30.580 --> 00:31:37.680 Again, that comes out of value, but it also starts to build trust because it says, we can 00:31:37.680 --> 00:31:41.560 even say, I understand, maybe we, I actually, let me rephrase that. 00:31:41.780 --> 00:31:47.260 We may not be able to understand, but we want to understand, help me understand what you're 00:31:47.260 --> 00:31:47.860 going through. 00:31:48.540 --> 00:31:54.020 And that, that builds trust and we've got to stop, we've got to start empathizing more 00:31:54.020 --> 00:31:59.880 and stop just simply saying, read this, listen to this, you know, and walk away. 00:32:00.360 --> 00:32:00.860 So, so good. 00:32:00.940 --> 00:32:03.900 Let me ask you this, just a follow-up on that one. 00:32:04.100 --> 00:32:08.480 So you're, you're operating digital, physical, you're kind of all over the space. 00:32:08.580 --> 00:32:10.080 What, what, what is that? 00:32:10.180 --> 00:32:12.400 What is actually like, it's a beautiful story. 00:32:12.460 --> 00:32:16.660 Get down on the ground with the person, you know, and, and, and be in that uncomfortable 00:32:16.660 --> 00:32:21.400 spot with them, you know, often talk about how digital ministry actually get a lot more 00:32:21.400 --> 00:32:23.900 dirty than you do in physical ministry. 00:32:24.280 --> 00:32:26.320 And so give me, give me an example. 00:32:26.480 --> 00:32:29.760 I mean, I don't need names or anything like that, but, but what, what are some examples 00:32:29.760 --> 00:32:32.020 of, of how you've done this through cast members? 00:32:32.420 --> 00:32:38.640 It can be as simple as someone, someone being reprimanded for something they didn't do. 00:32:39.020 --> 00:32:40.920 And they want to, and they're angry. 00:32:41.020 --> 00:32:43.100 They're angry at the person that got them in trouble. 00:32:43.100 --> 00:32:47.700 They're angry about, um, this isn't fair and there's nothing they can do about it. 00:32:47.700 --> 00:32:52.180 And, you know, you could say, well, here's your, here's your chance to be Jesus and, and, 00:32:52.180 --> 00:32:54.560 and, you know, turn the other cheek and all that. 00:32:54.840 --> 00:32:59.820 That's all good, but we got to get through, we got to get with, actually understand where 00:32:59.820 --> 00:33:00.640 they're coming from. 00:33:00.740 --> 00:33:01.980 They have felt betrayed. 00:33:02.700 --> 00:33:04.760 They have felt, they have felt violated. 00:33:04.760 --> 00:33:06.020 So in a, in a sense. 00:33:06.160 --> 00:33:08.560 And so we need to embrace that. 00:33:08.700 --> 00:33:12.240 There's other things that we've, you know, we've seen, um, I've had cast members that 00:33:12.240 --> 00:33:17.260 have lost family members, uh, uh, uh, a cast member who lost her father. 00:33:17.700 --> 00:33:22.720 Um, long story short, she was separated from her father because she was here at Disney and 00:33:22.720 --> 00:33:24.060 he was in another country. 00:33:24.440 --> 00:33:26.200 She, uh, COVID shut down Disney. 00:33:26.320 --> 00:33:26.860 She went home. 00:33:26.940 --> 00:33:27.700 She had to quarantine. 00:33:27.900 --> 00:33:28.820 She couldn't see her dad. 00:33:28.820 --> 00:33:36.520 Um, and she saw him for one day after her quarantine and he died and she was just utterly dead. 00:33:36.580 --> 00:33:38.600 Who wouldn't be utterly devastated. 00:33:38.980 --> 00:33:46.600 And so there is no, I understand or, or a scripture quote or anything like that. 00:33:46.600 --> 00:33:48.700 It's just like, I am so sorry. 00:33:49.180 --> 00:33:51.400 I, I, I, it doesn't make sense. 00:33:51.900 --> 00:33:55.260 And, and not, not just offering an explanation. 00:33:55.920 --> 00:33:58.340 I'm going to be honest with you in doing this. 00:33:58.840 --> 00:34:01.580 I, the majority of the time I don't have an explanation. 00:34:02.380 --> 00:34:03.980 Life doesn't, life doesn't make sense. 00:34:04.020 --> 00:34:07.880 I mean, I can, I can, I can refer to scripture and point out those things. 00:34:08.020 --> 00:34:13.260 But when I look at things through the eyes of the world, that's why it's hopeless. 00:34:13.740 --> 00:34:19.080 And so to be able to embrace that hopelessness and understand where they're coming from, 00:34:19.360 --> 00:34:23.140 I can begin to understand how Jesus wants to work in their lives. 00:34:23.660 --> 00:34:26.240 But I have to, I, I need to feel what they're feeling. 00:34:26.820 --> 00:34:30.620 And, and that I can't do it that I can't do that from an arm's distance. 00:34:30.620 --> 00:34:38.320 It's interesting, you know, you're using even the physical example of arm's distance in digital context where there is no arms. 00:34:38.820 --> 00:34:42.700 But that's, it's, it's embracing you using these digital tools. 00:34:42.820 --> 00:34:45.160 And some would say, you can't do that digitally. 00:34:45.320 --> 00:34:46.380 Like, it's, it's amazing to me. 00:34:46.440 --> 00:34:49.180 It's still the number of people that are, that are like, but it's not real. 00:34:49.400 --> 00:34:50.020 Oh my gosh. 00:34:50.240 --> 00:34:50.880 Oh my gosh. 00:34:51.000 --> 00:34:52.220 That's a whole other conversation. 00:34:52.460 --> 00:34:54.840 Let's, let's, let's stay positive with this one. 00:34:54.960 --> 00:35:03.860 I mean, you did say, and I love what you said and, and the idea of we, we can be more real digitally than, than physically. 00:35:04.160 --> 00:35:06.880 And that is absolutely true. 00:35:07.000 --> 00:35:10.160 We were doing Zoom before the world knew about Zoom. 00:35:10.540 --> 00:35:14.000 We, we were doing, cause we were, we had to figure out how to be a global church. 00:35:14.680 --> 00:35:18.040 And I found, this is amazing to me. 00:35:18.120 --> 00:35:25.140 I found that looking at a screen, talking like you and I are talking, what people opened up more than sitting across from a table. 00:35:25.380 --> 00:35:30.160 And I, and I, and I, no one can convince me otherwise, cause this is based on my experience. 00:35:30.340 --> 00:35:32.740 Now, some people, some people don't have that experience. 00:35:32.820 --> 00:35:34.620 Some people don't, aren't comfortable with it. 00:35:35.000 --> 00:35:35.700 That's fine. 00:35:35.980 --> 00:35:40.880 But don't say that it's, it's, no one can just acknowledge that you're not wired that way. 00:35:40.940 --> 00:35:43.100 Some people can, a lot of people can. 00:35:43.440 --> 00:35:45.740 Anyway, that's a, that's a rabbit trail for another show. 00:35:46.160 --> 00:35:47.220 Moving on here. 00:35:47.280 --> 00:35:50.240 Number six, this is, this is going to be a rabbit trail. 00:35:51.160 --> 00:35:52.760 Conversations over teaching. 00:35:53.400 --> 00:35:54.660 Conversations over, over teaching. 00:35:54.800 --> 00:35:55.240 Go for it. 00:35:55.540 --> 00:35:55.700 Yeah. 00:35:55.940 --> 00:35:58.520 Well, that, that piggybacks empathy over explanations. 00:35:59.840 --> 00:36:05.860 I, you know, I, I seldom remember sermons after about five or six weeks. 00:36:05.980 --> 00:36:07.740 But I remember conversations. 00:36:08.420 --> 00:36:19.100 I, it's, there's just something about, uh, when I'm talking to somebody at my dining room table and we're talking about a life thing, something that's going on and it goes back and forth. 00:36:19.160 --> 00:36:23.460 It's, it's, it's, it's, you, it's almost like each one is a shovel that digs a little deeper. 00:36:23.460 --> 00:36:33.200 Each, each time somebody says something, it's, you're digging a little deeper and conversations stir up amazing things about what's going on inside a person. 00:36:33.200 --> 00:36:35.740 But if, if we're teaching, that's one sided. 00:36:35.920 --> 00:36:38.540 That's like, when I think of teaching, I think of lecture style. 00:36:38.780 --> 00:36:47.200 And I know you can teach other ways, you know, life lessons, but, but by and large, what we need to do is we have got to learn to listen. 00:36:47.920 --> 00:37:03.620 It's, we have got to, if the Holy Spirit is going to open our ears and our eyes to hear and see what he wants to do, it's going to be by listening to the other person and finding out what's going on behind what they're talking about. 00:37:03.940 --> 00:37:07.300 And I've just found the more I learn about a person, the more I love them. 00:37:08.200 --> 00:37:15.660 And, and we've got to stop thinking one sided, going back to explanations or simply trying to teach somebody something. 00:37:16.700 --> 00:37:26.900 I, I learn from experience and I learn in conversations and I, I learn different perspectives that I might not agree with, but I totally get where they're coming from. 00:37:27.500 --> 00:37:29.440 And that's a huge piece of the pie. 00:37:29.960 --> 00:37:35.160 Yeah, platforming as in standing on a soapbox and one way conversations does not work in 2022. 00:37:36.340 --> 00:37:41.940 And the more that we can dialogue, people will not listen to you until you listen to them. 00:37:42.100 --> 00:37:48.060 You know, that almost gets over the human beings, over labels, you know, so much of what you're, it's all baked in into that. 00:37:48.180 --> 00:37:49.620 We don't want to come across a salesman. 00:37:49.620 --> 00:37:54.640 And that's, and that is, and again, I work with thousands of cast members. 00:37:55.000 --> 00:37:56.480 That's how we're perceived. 00:37:56.960 --> 00:38:00.200 We're perceived as, as sleazy salesmen. 00:38:01.000 --> 00:38:05.900 And I, and I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, their words, not mine, but that's the perception. 00:38:05.900 --> 00:38:08.920 And we have to remember for them, that's real. 00:38:09.340 --> 00:38:13.220 And so we have to figure out how to shift away, shift away from that perception. 00:38:13.460 --> 00:38:17.720 And part of that is simply having conversations and saying, tell me, tell me about you. 00:38:17.840 --> 00:38:19.700 Tell me, tell me about where you're coming from on this. 00:38:20.000 --> 00:38:21.340 And it opens up doors. 00:38:21.680 --> 00:38:23.440 Moving on, risk. 00:38:23.640 --> 00:38:24.860 Oh, this is a big one. 00:38:25.220 --> 00:38:26.720 Risk over reputation. 00:38:27.900 --> 00:38:30.540 This is the challenge for many, risk over reputation. 00:38:31.000 --> 00:38:31.480 Yeah. 00:38:31.700 --> 00:38:34.980 Double-edged sword because it cuts two different ways. 00:38:35.740 --> 00:38:44.360 There is the, the individual reputation where we see Jesus not caring at all about what people thought. 00:38:44.500 --> 00:38:46.440 He ate with who he wanted to eat with. 00:38:46.540 --> 00:38:50.820 He ate with whoever the father led him to, tax collectors, prostitutes. 00:38:50.820 --> 00:38:57.680 He, he hung out with people that, that religious people would not condone. 00:38:58.360 --> 00:39:00.600 And so, but he never worried about his reputation. 00:39:00.600 --> 00:39:05.120 It was, it was about the mission, mission over me, going back to the original one. 00:39:05.300 --> 00:39:08.700 On the other hand, churches also wrestle with this too. 00:39:08.960 --> 00:39:12.020 We don't want to take the risk because what if we fail? 00:39:12.500 --> 00:39:14.160 What if this doesn't work? 00:39:14.540 --> 00:39:23.520 And we've got to get past that because so much of what Jesus is calling us to do will not make sense in the human terms. 00:39:23.520 --> 00:39:26.000 It has to be done with him. 00:39:26.540 --> 00:39:30.000 And, but, but if we don't take the risk, well, we don't need him. 00:39:30.260 --> 00:39:34.600 I mean, let's, I mean, I'm, I'm, I'm oversimplifying and maybe being a little dramatic. 00:39:34.860 --> 00:39:38.800 But the fact is, is we take the risks that we think are manageable. 00:39:39.300 --> 00:39:42.300 And I just don't see Jesus doing that to his disciples. 00:39:42.300 --> 00:39:45.420 I see him, you know, sending them out, sending out the 72. 00:39:45.660 --> 00:39:47.360 Oh, by the way, don't take anything with you. 00:39:49.100 --> 00:39:51.160 Now, that's not a good strategy, Jesus. 00:39:51.600 --> 00:39:55.980 We, you know, I kind of need this and I need that, you know, and, and Jesus is kind of going, 00:39:56.180 --> 00:40:00.620 no, I'm going to show you what it means to depend on my father. 00:40:01.180 --> 00:40:04.600 And I think we've got to get past what people think about us. 00:40:04.860 --> 00:40:07.920 Whether it's individually or as a church. 00:40:08.340 --> 00:40:08.440 Yeah. 00:40:08.560 --> 00:40:11.440 And even in that, there's a little bit of, of control, right? 00:40:11.600 --> 00:40:14.200 Where it's, it's, Hey, I'm, I'm trying to control that situation. 00:40:14.720 --> 00:40:16.500 I'm, I'm trying to plan. 00:40:16.620 --> 00:40:17.560 I'm trying to organize. 00:40:17.560 --> 00:40:20.260 I'm trying to strategize far beyond. 00:40:20.800 --> 00:40:24.040 And it's, it's like, we've strategized the Holy Spirit out of the conversation. 00:40:24.360 --> 00:40:30.500 We, we, we're, we're limiting we ourselves unintentionally by not, by not making Jesus first 00:40:30.500 --> 00:40:34.760 in some of these conversations and instead trying to, to control it out. 00:40:34.860 --> 00:40:40.380 Um, we, yeah, there is, we've, we've taken the risk out of it, which actually I think limits 00:40:40.380 --> 00:40:42.060 what God can do through us. 00:40:42.420 --> 00:40:42.520 Yeah. 00:40:42.620 --> 00:40:47.680 I had a conversation with a pastor several years ago and we were talking about, uh, I didn't 00:40:47.680 --> 00:40:50.740 have these pivots yet, but we were talking about a lot of these things. 00:40:50.740 --> 00:40:54.680 And he sat there and he looked at me and he said, Stephen, I agree with you 100%. 00:40:54.680 --> 00:40:57.180 These are things that we need to do in our church. 00:40:57.460 --> 00:41:01.480 But if we do that, if I try to do them, I will lose my job. 00:41:02.860 --> 00:41:09.500 And I'm going, you know, it was, it was, there was a point where you go, I don't know how 00:41:09.500 --> 00:41:10.400 to respond to that. 00:41:10.800 --> 00:41:12.120 Maybe you don't want that job. 00:41:12.240 --> 00:41:12.920 I'll say it. 00:41:13.000 --> 00:41:13.380 I'm just. 00:41:13.740 --> 00:41:14.720 Yeah, exactly. 00:41:15.000 --> 00:41:15.320 Yeah. 00:41:15.420 --> 00:41:16.100 Well, that's it. 00:41:16.220 --> 00:41:16.620 That's it. 00:41:16.680 --> 00:41:18.240 It's kind of like, are we fearing man? 00:41:18.500 --> 00:41:24.340 Are we fearing, are we fearing losing our comfort, our credibility and our control more than actually 00:41:24.340 --> 00:41:26.920 embracing the adventure God actually wants us to live? 00:41:27.100 --> 00:41:27.880 That's so hard. 00:41:28.240 --> 00:41:32.320 I, I, I totally, you know, I, I, I respect the pastors in that situation. 00:41:32.320 --> 00:41:34.980 I respect those out there listening to this conversation right now. 00:41:35.320 --> 00:41:40.320 It's, it's, it's hard to, to let go and to put faith, but that's why it's faith. 00:41:40.560 --> 00:41:46.860 I mean, really examine what, what are you putting your faith in, in those moments and this risk 00:41:46.860 --> 00:41:47.680 over reputation. 00:41:47.680 --> 00:41:49.840 This is the one I think that stings me the most. 00:41:49.980 --> 00:41:50.000 Yeah. 00:41:50.120 --> 00:41:50.640 Oh, me too. 00:41:50.760 --> 00:41:51.080 Me too. 00:41:51.360 --> 00:41:51.660 Oh yeah. 00:41:51.700 --> 00:41:51.860 Yeah. 00:41:51.860 --> 00:41:52.160 Totally. 00:41:52.460 --> 00:41:57.540 Number eight here, moving on love over conditions, love over conditions. 00:41:57.960 --> 00:41:58.620 Unpack this one. 00:41:58.800 --> 00:41:58.940 Yeah. 00:41:59.220 --> 00:42:03.060 These just get, you know, I'm, as we're going through them, I'm like, wow, these just get 00:42:03.060 --> 00:42:03.740 harder and harder. 00:42:05.320 --> 00:42:08.260 But, you know, it's so funny. 00:42:08.540 --> 00:42:11.020 We are so, everyone has heard this. 00:42:11.420 --> 00:42:18.780 I love you, but I love you, but, and the, the, the perfect love that Jesus talks about 00:42:18.780 --> 00:42:26.920 in scripture never says that, never says that that love, love has no butts, as I like to 00:42:26.920 --> 00:42:27.140 say. 00:42:27.580 --> 00:42:33.780 And, and the idea is, is, and I understand why this one is so hard because we as human 00:42:33.780 --> 00:42:39.600 beings do not understand something that without condition, you know, because we live in a 00:42:39.600 --> 00:42:40.900 world where everything is finite. 00:42:40.900 --> 00:42:47.060 I mean, even, you know, as these bodies that we live in are finite, if, if, you know, even 00:42:47.060 --> 00:42:51.340 if, if, if you know Jesus and you know, you're going to heaven, there's still this finality 00:42:51.340 --> 00:42:54.600 of what we know is going to pass away. 00:42:54.680 --> 00:43:03.020 And so, everything has this condition and it's very hard to say love over conditions because 00:43:03.020 --> 00:43:04.740 we, we just put a condition on everything. 00:43:04.740 --> 00:43:05.580 It's like labels. 00:43:05.900 --> 00:43:09.460 We can't help it, but we have, it's counterintuitive. 00:43:09.800 --> 00:43:14.280 But the thing is, is Jesus is calling us to a counterintuitive lifestyle. 00:43:14.500 --> 00:43:20.160 He's calling us to a way of loving, even, you know, agape love, the, the Greek word that, 00:43:20.160 --> 00:43:25.040 that is the Bible likes to use most about love is a love that chooses. 00:43:25.580 --> 00:43:30.040 It's not based on feelings or butterflies or, or any of that stuff. 00:43:30.160 --> 00:43:34.840 It's a love that chooses to love even when love isn't returned. 00:43:34.840 --> 00:43:40.840 And I think, um, I wrote this in, in my, the book that's coming out that love shine, perfect 00:43:40.840 --> 00:43:43.700 love shines brightest when it's rejected. 00:43:45.440 --> 00:43:52.480 And, and we have to be willing to step across that line and say, I will love you no matter 00:43:52.480 --> 00:43:55.540 what, because that is perfect love. 00:43:55.540 --> 00:44:00.960 And so a great example, uh, is Jesus ate with Judas at the, at the last supper. 00:44:01.580 --> 00:44:04.560 Jesus, I mean, here's a, here's a person who's going to betray Jesus. 00:44:04.840 --> 00:44:10.720 It's going to put, that sets everything in motion and Jesus eats with him and treats him just 00:44:10.720 --> 00:44:12.920 like he treats all the other disciples in that moment. 00:44:13.300 --> 00:44:15.300 No, uh, knowing, knowing. 00:44:15.820 --> 00:44:20.800 And, and so there's this, Jesus loved Judas to the end, to the end. 00:44:21.740 --> 00:44:25.960 And, and that just blows my, in fact, I'm getting, getting emotional just thinking about 00:44:25.960 --> 00:44:26.140 it. 00:44:26.340 --> 00:44:28.500 That's like, that means he loves me to the end. 00:44:28.580 --> 00:44:32.760 It means no matter what happens in my life, no matter what I do, Jesus says, I love you 00:44:32.760 --> 00:44:34.380 no matter what. 00:44:34.840 --> 00:44:41.480 And how, how, what confidence that gives us, what peace that gives us. 00:44:41.480 --> 00:44:43.900 I mean, to pick every word, every adjective you want to pick. 00:44:44.020 --> 00:44:44.880 It's amazing. 00:44:45.360 --> 00:44:46.360 That's why it's good news. 00:44:46.560 --> 00:44:49.180 And that's why we should be a picture of that good news as well. 00:44:49.520 --> 00:44:50.240 That that's beautiful. 00:44:50.340 --> 00:44:50.880 That's heartfelt. 00:44:50.880 --> 00:44:55.020 That ties in so much with that acceptance over change as well, right? 00:44:55.120 --> 00:45:00.300 Where we're, where we're loving all, uh, regardless of, of, of the conditions where we're accepting 00:45:00.300 --> 00:45:05.120 them over, over the change and we're getting that priority in place where we need, we need 00:45:05.120 --> 00:45:09.140 to love before that change rather than expecting the change first. 00:45:09.140 --> 00:45:12.980 And that, and that, and that what dictates the love, like this is, this is just beautiful. 00:45:13.100 --> 00:45:18.320 All this fits together, which actually lands us right here at number nine here, uh, Jesus 00:45:18.320 --> 00:45:19.960 over everything. 00:45:20.120 --> 00:45:22.880 So, I mean, obviously this is baked into all of it. 00:45:23.200 --> 00:45:25.840 Uh, but, but, but let's, let's land the plane on this one. 00:45:25.900 --> 00:45:27.580 Jesus over everything. 00:45:27.740 --> 00:45:29.280 Let's get, tell me your heart here. 00:45:29.540 --> 00:45:32.480 I saved the best for last, you know, uh, it comes down to this. 00:45:32.680 --> 00:45:33.280 Jesus wins. 00:45:33.800 --> 00:45:39.620 I mean, it's like whatever we're doing, whatever decisions we need to make, Jesus wins. 00:45:39.760 --> 00:45:40.620 There's no discussion. 00:45:41.320 --> 00:45:45.380 Uh, we just look at who Jesus is and how he responds. 00:45:45.720 --> 00:45:47.440 And that's, that's how it works. 00:45:47.560 --> 00:45:51.680 There's so much discussion goes, well, should we, you know, we don't know if this or that 00:45:51.680 --> 00:45:54.440 look, look, look at Jesus, look at what Jesus did. 00:45:54.480 --> 00:45:56.420 Look at what Jesus did with the woman caught in adultery. 00:45:56.420 --> 00:45:58.780 Look at what Jesus did to Judas, with Judas. 00:45:58.880 --> 00:46:00.540 Look what Jesus did with Nicodemus. 00:46:00.640 --> 00:46:01.800 Look, Jesus wins. 00:46:02.500 --> 00:46:03.600 There's no discussion. 00:46:04.180 --> 00:46:08.980 And so, uh, it's almost like the exclamation point at the end of the sentence that just says, 00:46:09.080 --> 00:46:10.820 look, Jesus over everything. 00:46:11.060 --> 00:46:12.320 This is not that hard. 00:46:12.580 --> 00:46:16.100 It's, it's not hard to, to recognize that it's hard to live out. 00:46:16.860 --> 00:46:23.580 But as, because Jesus is over everything, every one of these pivots are pivots that we 00:46:23.580 --> 00:46:30.880 can make that allows Jesus to exercise what he wants to do through us from the beginning, 00:46:30.880 --> 00:46:37.380 to be irresistible, to be contagious, to be a church that people look at and go, wow, 00:46:37.560 --> 00:46:39.580 there is something different about them. 00:46:39.680 --> 00:46:40.900 I need to know more. 00:46:41.400 --> 00:46:45.580 You know, it talks about how in the book of Acts, the church, they added to their numbers 00:46:45.580 --> 00:46:46.100 daily. 00:46:46.400 --> 00:46:47.800 That church was irresistible. 00:46:48.260 --> 00:46:51.900 There was something going on and, and they couldn't stop it. 00:46:52.000 --> 00:46:58.060 It was, it was growing before the, before the, um, uh, the persecution and even after the 00:46:58.060 --> 00:46:59.800 persecution, it didn't stop it. 00:46:59.860 --> 00:47:01.000 The church was irresistible. 00:47:01.300 --> 00:47:09.160 And it's, I believe this is a time for us in this day and age, no better time than for 00:47:09.160 --> 00:47:14.000 us to become people that are irresistible, pointing to the irresistible savior. 00:47:14.600 --> 00:47:18.180 And each one of these pivots will help us accomplish that. 00:47:18.620 --> 00:47:18.680 Awesome. 00:47:18.780 --> 00:47:19.780 This has been so good. 00:47:19.840 --> 00:47:20.620 It's been a great time. 00:47:20.720 --> 00:47:26.620 All of these, these nine pivots, the nine opportunities for us as the church to self-examine, 00:47:26.840 --> 00:47:28.280 to look at what we're doing. 00:47:28.320 --> 00:47:33.140 And maybe there's something within our DNA, within, within our processes, within our policies. 00:47:33.500 --> 00:47:34.900 Do we see this within our volunteers? 00:47:35.420 --> 00:47:37.580 Do we see this within our staff, our leaders? 00:47:38.120 --> 00:47:42.340 Uh, and let's start to, to examine, uh, once again, the majority of these have nothing to 00:47:42.340 --> 00:47:47.860 do with, with technology or embracing, but it's much more about how we are, are being 00:47:47.860 --> 00:47:56.460 the church in this 2022 post pandemic post, uh, some just the cultural shifts of where we 00:47:56.460 --> 00:47:56.780 are. 00:47:56.780 --> 00:48:02.140 And so, uh, sir, I want to thank you for the time here, just even as, as we're coming in. 00:48:02.140 --> 00:48:03.880 And so I appreciate this. 00:48:04.220 --> 00:48:09.420 Um, once again, Kingdom Influence is going to be hitting, uh, the, the bookshelves, amazon.com, 00:48:09.480 --> 00:48:12.560 as well as your, are local Christian bookstores still around? 00:48:12.680 --> 00:48:14.840 I don't, I don't, should maybe, maybe a couple. 00:48:15.120 --> 00:48:18.640 I used to own one back in the day, but I don't, I don't see them around too much more, but 00:48:18.640 --> 00:48:22.220 you know, wherever you buy those, those physical books are, I'm sure you can get on Kindle 00:48:22.220 --> 00:48:22.620 as well. 00:48:22.720 --> 00:48:26.060 But, uh, so Kingdom Influence, look for that, uh, in the, in the coming days. 00:48:26.060 --> 00:48:28.420 Uh, Stephen, as we're landing a plane here, any closing thoughts? 00:48:28.680 --> 00:48:32.120 No, I just want to, I just want everybody to know that these pivots, 00:48:32.140 --> 00:48:32.940 are doable. 00:48:33.260 --> 00:48:35.640 It starts, and it starts with me. 00:48:35.760 --> 00:48:36.660 It starts with you. 00:48:37.180 --> 00:48:39.020 Uh, we can't teach what we aren't living. 00:48:39.600 --> 00:48:44.840 And so the best place to start is not looking at this through the lens of our leadership. 00:48:45.200 --> 00:48:47.620 We need to look at it through the lens of our own learning. 00:48:48.080 --> 00:48:52.400 And if we can start there, please know that your example will be the best teacher. 00:48:52.760 --> 00:48:53.940 I know that from experience. 00:48:53.940 --> 00:48:54.340 Awesome. 00:48:54.480 --> 00:48:58.060 I totally want to quote Michael Jackson's man in the mirror right now, but I'll let you 00:48:58.060 --> 00:49:02.280 guys Google that and you can pull those lyrics up and find the, uh, the parallel. 00:49:02.440 --> 00:49:02.920 It'll be beautiful. 00:49:03.180 --> 00:49:04.380 Hey, so we're going to land a plane here. 00:49:04.440 --> 00:49:08.700 Stephen, man, thank you for jumping into this conversation and walking through your pivots. 00:49:09.180 --> 00:49:10.900 Kingdom Influence, uh, coming soon. 00:49:11.440 --> 00:49:11.800 Irresistible. 00:49:12.120 --> 00:49:16.960 Uh, looking forward to seeing your deep dive on this, which is incredibly relevant, uh, 00:49:16.960 --> 00:49:18.780 in, in today's, uh, culture. 00:49:18.880 --> 00:49:21.000 And so it's going to be great, but we're going to land the plane. 00:49:21.000 --> 00:49:23.120 Thank you for what you're doing with, um, with the books. 00:49:23.220 --> 00:49:27.900 Thank you for what you're doing with, um, with Disney cast member church and maybe looking 00:49:27.900 --> 00:49:30.500 at the world differently through that, but we're done. 00:49:30.700 --> 00:49:31.960 So, Hey, we're going to land the plane. 00:49:32.040 --> 00:49:32.620 Thank you, Stephen. 00:49:32.700 --> 00:49:36.720 For Stephen, this is Jeff with the church digital digital church network and a bunch of other 00:49:36.720 --> 00:49:37.380 fun stuff. 00:49:37.460 --> 00:49:41.380 Thanks for jumping on the podcast here and we'll see you next time, uh, here on the show. 00:49:41.460 --> 00:49:41.880 Y'all have a good day.