WEBVTT

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 Paul talks about this in Romans, like we are creatures of worship.

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 Are we going to worship the created?

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 Are we going to worship the creator and the creator that's in one another?

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 As we mediate grace to one another, we've got to have healthy connections, Jeff.

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 We've got to have solid relationships, Jeff,

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 that are not based on how good we are as ministers in these digital spaces, but who we are.

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 Welcome to the Church Digital Podcast.

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 Through this podcast, we'll talk about the technological innovations within the church.

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 But more than tech for tech itself, we'll address deeper questions.

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 Is disciple making possible digitally?

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 How should we approach the digital mission field?

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 Can a biblically grounded church operate in digital space?

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 Oh, and where does the metaverse fit into all this?

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 Whether you're a big or small church, an established church, or a startup church plant,

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 the Church Digital's goal is to help churches like yours learn to be a multiplying church,

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 digitally and physically.

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 Our heart?

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 That churches like yours will discover a newfound focus on disciple making

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 that will revolutionize your church.

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 And now, here's your host, Jeff Reed.

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 All right, hey, you've got the Church Digital Podcast.

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 Once again, it's Jeff here.

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 Excited to join you for this special,

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 let's call it the special episode,

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 special edition of the Church Digital Podcast.

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 That's right.

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 If you've got little kids at home, you may want to consider not letting them listen to this podcast.

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 We may be touching on some PG-13 issues within this episode.

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 And I don't want to get hate mail.

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 As a matter of fact, if you really want to send hate mail,

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 go ahead and send it to chesley at thechurch.digital.

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 That'll be awesome.

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 Chesley will really...

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 Chesley is one of the co-founders of Digital Church Network, if you don't know Chesley.

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 And he's a good friend with today's guest.

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 And so, listen, I'm excited about this podcast.

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 I think it's something worth acknowledging.

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 And even here with the Church Digital, we're going to...

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 And Digital Church Network, we're really going to be touching over the next couple months

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 on some sensitive subjects of digital ministry.

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 And because there's challenges to this.

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 And rather than ignoring the challenges, let's just address it right up front.

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 And so let me introduce to the conversation here, Chris Caputo.

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 Chris is a spiritual director for Digital Church Network.

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 He runs Hesed Discipleship Network and a number of things.

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 And really, once again, a spiritual director for an organization as well as almost a spiritual

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 mentor for me, helping me manage, work through the intricacies and the hang-up and the issues

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 of Jeff Reed.

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 It's been awesome to have Chris on the team.

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 So, hey, Chris, just maybe as an opening here, before we get into the meat of this conversation,

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 tell us a little bit about Hesed, kind of what you're doing.

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 What that looks like and where people can connect to Hesed.

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 Yeah, thanks, Jeff.

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 So, glad to be here today.

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 Hesed Discipleship Network is designed to help create emotionally healthy communities.

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 And who doesn't want that, especially today in today's internet world and the world that

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 we live in with church life, regular life, everything in between.

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 So, Hesed Discipleship Network.com.

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 What we do is we have a disciple-making operating system where we train people, coach them, equip

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 them, train them.

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 We have hours of content if you want to go through that.

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 We have live coaching experiences.

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 And what we do is we invite you into our campfire, into our ecosystem to learn how we do it.

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 We actually show you how to do it from a digital space.

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 How do we bring that to a physical and or digital space so that you can learn to grow in emotional

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 health?

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 And what we say is it takes just a few months to create a culture of emotional health.

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 That doesn't mean you may necessarily will be fully emotionally healthy in a short amount

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 of time, but your culture will help you grow up into those things.

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 So, we give you the minimum viable skill set that you'll need with as much encouragement

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 and coaching and prayer as we can give you.

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 So, there's a little two-minute speech there on that.

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 Jeff, I'll turn that all over back to you now as we continue our conversation.

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 That's great.

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 And I can tell you, even just organizationally, some of the stuff that I've done with them,

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 that three months of culture, that may seem like forever.

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 And it may sound like it's super fast, but when you're going through that process and just

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 working through it and understanding it, it's such a beautiful thing on the flip side.

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 I don't know if we're technically on the flip side, but I feel closer to the finish line

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 than maybe I did when we were getting started there and banging our heads against the wall

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 repeatedly.

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 And so, definitely love what Chris is doing.

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 But let me set the stage here with the conversation we want to have today.

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 Just over the course of the past couple months, I have really been digging into, through Digital

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 Church Network, through the Church Digital, the mental health and some of the mental health

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 challenges and implications centered around digital ministry.

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 It seems to be wherever I go, whoever I'm talking with that are on these front lines, it seems

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 like we're having more and more conversations centered around either the mental health implications,

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 the challenges people are facing, what this means long-term, the health and viability of digital

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 and metaverse churches, the challenges of that operating in the dark spaces like metaverse and

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 like social media is.

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 And it was funny, for a season, you know, I just kind of swept it under the rug.

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 Let's not address it.

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 Let's just keep focusing on what's in front of us.

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 And long story short, several things happened in my life that I was like, we can no longer

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 really ignore this.

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 We have to address it.

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 And honestly, and I don't mean this egotistically, I don't know who is going to address it, if

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 not the Church Digital and Digital Church Network.

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 So it's like, hey guys, we're going to grab this full steam ahead.

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 And I've loved having some conversations with Chris talking about, and others, Mindy Caliguire

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 has been a guest on this podcast several times, Adrian Feldman having conversations with her

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 on it, but really starting to address the soul care aspects of us as individuals, starting

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 to address maybe training.

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 How do we train people?

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 How do we, as Digital Church Network, how do we train the people that are doing the digital

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 ministry?

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 How can we equip them to address going into these dark places?

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 Like what are they missing?

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 What are they lacking in their training?

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 And even starting to get into, this has been a fun challenge lately, starting to talk with

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 recovery organizations and recovery material.

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 And many of them, many well-known organizations have been hesitant to walk into the metaverse

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 and digital spaces with their recovery.

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 Like so much so that it's been, I mean, really a challenge and a frustration is that I've seen

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 such a need in working with so many churches to have a need for recovery.

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 They see people that need recovery from, you know, the addiction lifestyles or the things

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 that people are facing in virtual reality and within the other metaverse technologies.

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 But it all kind of culminated here because Chris and I have been working on some things and

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 some others.

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 We're starting to build out some teams and draw attentions and try to really solve this

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 problem if it can be solved.

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 And then Chris, it was funny, Church Sunday, Chris forwards me this article and it's literally,

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 it's like the title in big headlines is like internet addiction.

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 And it's like, this is what we need to talk about.

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 And I was like, oh my gosh, this article is beautiful.

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 And so literally in church, I'm like scrolling through my phone when I should be focusing on

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 technology.

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 The worship coordinator actually came over to me because I was late firing a lighting cue

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 and I apologized.

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 And I may have cussed underneath my breath because Chris distracted me in my moment of focus.

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 I own my responsibility.

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 I'm sorry.

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 But as I'm looking at these internet addictions, like I'm going to be honest here.

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 Like a lot of this stuff, the majority of this stuff is I'm probably guilty of sometime in

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 my life.

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 And so we'd love to maybe just start to unpack here just for awareness.

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 Hey guys, this, we're in gals, this internet, this realm that we're working on for kingdom

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 purposes has the potential to damage us.

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 And we need to be aware of that.

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 I don't think that it's stay away from that space.

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 I think we have to go in.

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 But if nothing, I think that there's a self-awareness of that, which is really what I wanted to talk

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 about.

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 And we're going to hit a pain point.

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 Well, let me ask this right up the top.

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 Chris, just overview as you're looking at this article, maybe even the challenge that we

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 have to address a lot of these, the mental health challenges centered around digital and

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 metaverse ministry.

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 Man, do you have any thoughts just right off the top on this?

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 Yeah, Jeff.

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 Thanks.

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 First of all, I want to say thank you for watching this.

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 This may not be easy.

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 Some of the stuff we're going to share, but it is important.

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 If not you, if not at some point, possibly, or in the past or present future, people you're

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 going to come across may really have some challenges with this.

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 And what is your plan?

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 How are you going to address these issues, especially in a fully digital space if you're

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 ministering there?

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 So, Jeff, thanks for the question.

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 I think what we'll start with two.

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 Now, we'll talk about substance abuse as an example, and then we'll move into internet.

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 Okay.

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 So I'll give you, I'll give you an example with alcohol and drugs.

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 So there's two questions.

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 Okay.

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 These two questions, as you lead into the article that you're going to, we're going to share

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 for a little bit.

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 I'll start here and then I'll throw it back to you.

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 Number one, this is how you know, if you're to keep this really simple, can someone who

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 is an alcoholic or not an alcoholic or a drug addict to diagnose themselves, can you safely

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 predict the amount of drinks, let's say you're just drinking, right?

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 Can you absolutely predict how many drinks you're going to have once you have the first

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 drink?

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 Okay.

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 So let's translate that into internet.

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 Can you safely predict the amount of time you spend online the minute you click on?

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 Okay.

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 Now, here's the other, here's the second, I know there, then the frowns might come in on

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 that.

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 That's okay.

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 Here's the second question, even more important than that one.

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 Okay.

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 Can you also control your thought life when you're not drinking, thinking about the next

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 drink?

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 So when you're sober, right, how is your thought life when you're thinking about the next

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 drink?

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 Is it like, I can't wait, dah, dah, dah, or you're thinking, I can't think about this

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 anymore or stop thinking about it.

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 So if you're trying to control something in your mind, it's already out of control.

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 Versus are you at ease with the thoughts about drinking?

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 Now with internet, let me rephrase the question this way.

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 Can you control your thought life when you're offline and be at ease, not knowing when the

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 next time you're going to be back online?

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 Or can you take it or leave it?

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 Or are you not at ease with those thoughts?

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 All right.

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 So this, that's, I'm going to set the table with that, Jeff.

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 Those are the two.

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 So once you click on, can you control brain wise, how much time and predict safely, you

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 know, I could just step away after an hour or I'm going to spend two hours online today

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 and walk away and do my work.

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 And then secondly, when you're offline, how's your thought life?

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 Are you always trying to manage your thoughts around that?

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 So let, that's kind of the appetizer as we lead into this addiction conversation.

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 Yeah.

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 We're less than 10 minutes into the conversation and my head already exploded.

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 So what you're telling me is I don't need to control.

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 What you're telling me right now is to effectively recover and overcome addiction is to stop fighting

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 the addiction.

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 Like, I don't want to nuance that, but-

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 Well, are you at ease with it?

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 That's, you're in dis-ease.

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 You're a disease.

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 It's a disease.

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 It's an addiction when you're not at ease.

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 So here's what I do.

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 We're going to, we're going to go through this, this conversation.

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 We're going to talk through the five and we're going to unpack some things.

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 But so here, here's what I'm doing.

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 I'm looking at this article.

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 We'll put it in the show notes.

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 It's from, it's literally addictioncenter.com, five types of internet addiction.

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 And so right off the bat, once again, parents, you may want to pause it.

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 If your little kids are around, because right off the top is a very sensitive subject.

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 Cybersex addiction.

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 It's obviously one of the more self-explanatory adult websites, sexual fantasy, adult chat rooms,

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 webcam services.

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 Don't even get me started on VR chat.

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 And a lot of the opportunities for cyber sex in virtual reality and the metaverse, like the, the reality of cyber sex and that addiction is, it's, it's, it's a reality.

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 It's, it's the world that we live in and sex sells on the, it's, it's funny.

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 I've, I've, I've, I've actually, I had somebody tell me that, uh, you know, that a technology is going to succeed when pornography pervades it.

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 Like the ability for pornography to intersect itself into any technology basically validates that that technology is going to make it.

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 If tech, if porn is not invading it, then that tech is actually questionable, whether it's going to survive.

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 Um, we can talk about examples there later.

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 Um, but addressing this, uh, up front that there's, there's susceptibility, there's, there's like, okay, so Chris, you, you're, you're talking about, um, you know, I was thinking control.

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 You're, you're thinking, how do we wrestle with, Hey, you know what?

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 Like there's, this is out there.

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 This is a challenge to us.

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 I need to protect myself from getting exposed or getting pulled into like, how, how do we do ministry in spaces where cyber sex is, is really the challenge that it is?

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 Yeah, it's a great question, Jeff.

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 So let me give you an overarching foundational concepts.

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 Okay.

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 Um, wherever there's low joy environments, what that means is when you don't have that feeling that someone's glad to be with you, uh, and you have to artificially,

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 stimulate that feeling of joy of, of, of artificially, this is the breeding ground by which, um, uh, having faces that are not glad to be with us, uh, sets up the stage for heavy internet use and addictions to emerge.

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 All right.

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 So another way of saying that is that there's a, there's a, a phrase called beeps behaviors, experiences, events, people, and substances.

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 Okay.

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 We use those things, those beeps to medicate ourselves, to regulate our emotions.

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 So what does that mean?

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 Whenever we're too excited and amped up, we do those, one of those beeps to calm ourselves down.

00:15:16.300 --> 00:15:22.900
 Or if we're too low in the dumps and we have very low joy, very low peace, we use these beeps to, to bring ourselves up.

00:15:23.280 --> 00:15:28.060
 Where the design, God's design is facial expressions, connections, relationships.

00:15:28.760 --> 00:15:28.900
 Okay.

00:15:29.200 --> 00:15:31.920
 Keep God and one another being glad to be with each other.

00:15:32.380 --> 00:15:40.300
 That is the thing that's supposed to fire off the correct chemicals in the brain to make us learn how to regulate ourselves through relationships.

00:15:40.800 --> 00:15:47.520
 If you're a mother right now, watching this, when your baby starts crying and they don't want the bottle, it's your face and your tone of voice that calms them down.

00:15:48.040 --> 00:15:48.960
 Oh, sweetheart.

00:15:49.080 --> 00:15:51.080
 I'm so glad I'm locked in with you right now.

00:15:51.440 --> 00:15:53.040
 I just love you so much.

00:15:53.060 --> 00:15:59.800
 And the baby just, or if the baby's got those eyes, you know, they can't talk yet, but they're looking for joy.

00:15:59.900 --> 00:16:02.720
 They're like, I just want to lock in with somebody.

00:16:02.780 --> 00:16:03.620
 They can't talk yet.

00:16:03.640 --> 00:16:04.080
 Right, Jeff?

00:16:04.380 --> 00:16:05.120
 It's faces.

00:16:05.700 --> 00:16:06.100
 Okay.

00:16:06.460 --> 00:16:08.420
 So who are the glad faces in your life?

00:16:08.440 --> 00:16:21.200
 If you don't have that in your life, you're going to be susceptible for internet addiction because these are artificial pseudo joys and pseudo peace ways of being able to regulate our brain.

00:16:21.620 --> 00:16:28.120
 So I'll just, I'll stop there and maybe, maybe we can interact with that for a little bit and keep going down the list if you want of other addictions.

00:16:28.400 --> 00:16:28.840
 Yeah.

00:16:29.040 --> 00:16:36.000
 I mean, it's really interesting, the idea of pseudo joys and the fact that I don't want to get like graphic here,

00:16:36.160 --> 00:16:40.740
 but pornography, you're, you're connecting with the faces and, and, and, and the views of that.

00:16:40.840 --> 00:16:48.940
 And, um, and, and that's, I just, to be honest, I, I'd never realized that the, the joy and, and, and that substitute value.

00:16:48.940 --> 00:16:56.060
 And so that, that's a really interesting takeaway that almost, I feel like could be an entire conversation unto itself.

00:16:56.060 --> 00:16:57.160
 And so, Hey, you know what?

00:16:57.180 --> 00:16:58.300
 You really want to dig into that?

00:16:58.580 --> 00:16:59.560
 Swing over to fam.

00:16:59.840 --> 00:17:05.040
 Uh, and we, we can unpack that and we'll put Chris's info in the show notes as well.

00:17:05.860 --> 00:17:15.260
 Um, but, uh, and, and I know that joy just cause I know has said that that joy is really baked into a lot of what you're talking about through has said, right?

00:17:15.320 --> 00:17:28.160
 So that's, that's a, uh, that's a repeating theme, by the way, I've, if you actually know Chris, uh, I've never seen anyone who shows joy as much on his face as he does.

00:17:28.160 --> 00:17:29.960
 Like his eyes pop out of his head.

00:17:29.960 --> 00:17:33.380
 He's so joyous when, when he really gets excited on something.

00:17:33.380 --> 00:17:38.620
 So, uh, definitely excited to, um, to continue on this.

00:17:38.620 --> 00:17:42.360
 So let's, let's get off cyber sex, um, and, uh, move on.

00:17:42.400 --> 00:17:48.580
 So next up net compulsions, net compulsions concern, uh, interactive activities online.

00:17:48.580 --> 00:17:57.540
 That can be extremely harmful, such as online gambling, trading stocks, online auctions, such as eBay, eBay, e-boy, and that's from the movie.

00:17:57.540 --> 00:18:02.840
 If you're, if you're, uh, eBay and compulsive online shopping.

00:18:02.940 --> 00:18:09.700
 Uh, these habits can have a detrimental impact on one's financial stability and disrupt job related duties.

00:18:09.700 --> 00:18:13.300
 So, um, compulsions, uh, on, on the internet.

00:18:13.940 --> 00:18:19.180
 Um, once again, uh, you know, there, and even for me, it's stuff like iTunes.

00:18:19.680 --> 00:18:24.040
 Uh, you know, there was a season of my life back when it was like 99 cents, uh, per track.

00:18:24.400 --> 00:18:26.500
 Uh, you know, buy those things all day long.

00:18:26.500 --> 00:18:27.160
 I was funny.

00:18:27.220 --> 00:18:31.440
 I was, uh, was just with my kids the other day and we were looking at, uh, movies on iTunes.

00:18:31.440 --> 00:18:36.280
 And I, uh, I don't know if that I'm proud or disgusted to say I probably own, oh, actually

00:18:36.280 --> 00:18:42.920
 I own exactly 333 iTunes movies at this moment, um, and several different online services.

00:18:42.920 --> 00:18:45.960
 And so even as I'm, once again, I'm just moment of transparency here.

00:18:45.960 --> 00:18:53.740
 I'm looking at myself and I'm like, man, maybe in this desire to be a net savvy person, at

00:18:53.740 --> 00:18:55.680
 what point is, is too far?

00:18:55.680 --> 00:19:02.040
 At what point, Chris, am, am I taking this and it's becoming a, not, not a, not a joy,

00:19:02.300 --> 00:19:08.060
 not, not a hobby, but a, but a compulsion and something that I have to be sensitive to.

00:19:08.240 --> 00:19:08.740
 I don't know.

00:19:08.780 --> 00:19:09.720
 What are you thinking at that?

00:19:10.200 --> 00:19:10.400
 Yeah.

00:19:10.580 --> 00:19:12.360
 So this gentleman, Dr.

00:19:12.440 --> 00:19:17.420
 Keith Beard looks like in 2005, he published an article when this was a new thing, a new trend

00:19:17.420 --> 00:19:19.580
 of internet called internet use disorder.

00:19:19.580 --> 00:19:21.840
 He says, he reads eight questions.

00:19:21.940 --> 00:19:24.760
 He says, number one, are you preoccupied with the internet?

00:19:24.860 --> 00:19:29.480
 You think about previous online activity or you anticipate the next online session.

00:19:29.940 --> 00:19:30.200
 All right.

00:19:30.220 --> 00:19:30.920
 That's box one.

00:19:31.020 --> 00:19:35.380
 Box two, you need to use the internet with increasing amounts of time in order to achieve

00:19:35.380 --> 00:19:36.040
 satisfaction.

00:19:36.240 --> 00:19:40.640
 Number three, have you made successful efforts to control, cut back, or stop your internet

00:19:40.640 --> 00:19:41.020
 use?

00:19:41.200 --> 00:19:44.280
 Number four, you've stayed online longer than you originally intended.

00:19:44.280 --> 00:19:47.840
 Number five, you're restless, moody, depressed, or irritable when attempting to cut down or

00:19:47.840 --> 00:19:48.680
 stop internet use.

00:19:48.780 --> 00:19:53.520
 Number six, you've jeopardized or risked the loss of significant relationship, job, or educational

00:19:53.520 --> 00:19:54.700
 opportunities because of the internet.

00:19:55.300 --> 00:19:58.900
 Number seven, you've lied to family members, therapists, or others to conceal the extent

00:19:58.900 --> 00:20:00.280
 of involvement with the internet.

00:20:00.360 --> 00:20:04.260
 Or number eight, you use the internet as a way of escaping from problems or relieving of

00:20:04.260 --> 00:20:07.240
 a dysphoric mood, feelings of hopelessness, anxiety, guilt, or depression.

00:20:07.240 --> 00:20:14.280
 So basically, Jeff, when you find that first high, just like with anything else, the brain

00:20:14.280 --> 00:20:16.080
 is wired that way to go find pleasure.

00:20:16.360 --> 00:20:17.760
 And that's not a bad thing necessarily.

00:20:18.420 --> 00:20:21.500
 But once you taste it, you got to try and keep trying to catch that same high.

00:20:22.000 --> 00:20:25.700
 The problem is with anything else besides Jesus and relationships with one another that are

00:20:25.700 --> 00:20:33.320
 not codependently based, it becomes addictive because we want to try and catch that first

00:20:33.320 --> 00:20:34.000
 initial high.

00:20:35.300 --> 00:20:40.960
 And if we do it outside of a context of true relationship, it becomes a pseudo joy, pseudo

00:20:40.960 --> 00:20:42.440
 beep, it's counterfeit.

00:20:42.880 --> 00:20:45.300
 It is what's called a beep that I went over before.

00:20:46.060 --> 00:20:48.380
 So did that help?

00:20:48.540 --> 00:20:49.540
 Did that answer that question?

00:20:49.640 --> 00:20:52.340
 I think we've covered that by asking those questions.

00:20:52.760 --> 00:20:53.120
 Totally.

00:20:53.120 --> 00:20:53.180
 Totally.

00:20:53.420 --> 00:21:00.800
 But there's a challenge here of, I mean, it's 2022.

00:21:02.160 --> 00:21:07.560
 I don't know about you, but I went to a grocery store for the first time in two years because

00:21:07.560 --> 00:21:10.800
 at this point, I buy all my groceries through Instacart.

00:21:11.960 --> 00:21:20.920
 I don't actually, between Instacart and Amazon.com, I really don't know the last time that I've

00:21:20.920 --> 00:21:26.020
 bought something from a physical store, like maybe a hardware store to buy a nail.

00:21:26.720 --> 00:21:33.300
 But like, it's been very, because I just, I've evolved into this digital life.

00:21:33.880 --> 00:21:39.740
 Now, is that, how can I coexist if I am sensitive?

00:21:39.920 --> 00:21:44.520
 If I'm realizing, hey, I may have an issue, but at this point, everything leads towards

00:21:44.520 --> 00:21:45.520
 Amazon anyway.

00:21:46.260 --> 00:21:50.940
 So like, am I forced to go all the way back to like physical?

00:21:51.280 --> 00:21:53.860
 Is there, how do I have my cake and eat it too?

00:21:53.860 --> 00:21:59.180
 Like, how do I, how do I take the drink of alcohol, realizing that I have to put it down

00:21:59.180 --> 00:22:02.360
 and not get addicted to drinking it?

00:22:02.480 --> 00:22:05.960
 Like, is cold turkey the way to kind of overcome some of this?

00:22:06.080 --> 00:22:07.540
 That's a great question, Jeff.

00:22:07.920 --> 00:22:11.460
 I think we're really going to have to take this step by step.

00:22:11.540 --> 00:22:15.200
 I don't want anyone getting overwhelmed or beating yourself up or anything like that.

00:22:15.540 --> 00:22:19.280
 Think of it also, if you're watching this, if you have, we also could have ministry addiction.

00:22:19.520 --> 00:22:21.500
 So that's like similar, but different.

00:22:21.660 --> 00:22:26.300
 The thought of like you being someone who helps people, there's something that goes off in

00:22:26.300 --> 00:22:27.580
 the brain that feels so good.

00:22:27.640 --> 00:22:30.640
 It's so pleasurable when people look at you and they go, you're awesome.

00:22:30.640 --> 00:22:31.600
 And that's a good thing.

00:22:32.020 --> 00:22:34.300
 The thing is, is that you have to go home, right?

00:22:34.400 --> 00:22:38.780
 And you have to leave the office behind and you, you, and then you have to like clock out

00:22:38.780 --> 00:22:41.260
 and go back home to your family, to like the real world almost.

00:22:41.860 --> 00:22:45.460
 Um, and your identity is not about you being a minister.

00:22:45.680 --> 00:22:46.840
 I want you to hear me on this.

00:22:47.060 --> 00:22:47.400
 Okay.

00:22:47.880 --> 00:22:50.520
 And if that gives you pleasure, that's fantastic.

00:22:50.640 --> 00:22:51.960
 But you know what?

00:22:52.220 --> 00:22:56.680
 It's about having those relationships in your life where you're, where you belong, you're

00:22:56.680 --> 00:23:01.500
 seen your hood and under your heard and understood simply for who you are, whether you're doing

00:23:01.500 --> 00:23:02.500
 that action or not.

00:23:02.500 --> 00:23:07.020
 You are loved in the, in every single place for just the way you are.

00:23:07.160 --> 00:23:07.540
 Okay.

00:23:07.680 --> 00:23:10.440
 We long for belonging, Jeff, but here's the thing.

00:23:10.500 --> 00:23:14.440
 When we come to internet stuff, uh, this thing can also be equally as addicting.

00:23:14.560 --> 00:23:18.580
 It could be a real rush to kind of go into the metaverse and kind of have all these amazing

00:23:18.580 --> 00:23:19.200
 experiences.

00:23:19.620 --> 00:23:22.820
 And at the end of the day, we, it's only a two sensory experience, right?

00:23:22.900 --> 00:23:28.060
 Sight and sound, you know, to really have, we got to have five sensory belonging, five sensory

00:23:28.060 --> 00:23:32.740
 attachment, five sensory experiences as well that will balance out the brain.

00:23:32.740 --> 00:23:35.040
 So we don't get hooked, lying and sinkered into this.

00:23:35.480 --> 00:23:35.880
 Okay.

00:23:35.880 --> 00:23:38.160
 Cause if we're only two senses, that's not enough.

00:23:38.200 --> 00:23:39.320
 We're designed to have five.

00:23:39.540 --> 00:23:44.360
 So until this digital experiences gives me all five, I'm still going to lean into the,

00:23:44.420 --> 00:23:46.140
 make sure how your physical life is going.

00:23:46.560 --> 00:23:48.240
 How's your on the ground friendships going?

00:23:48.540 --> 00:23:50.180
 How is your family life on the ground?

00:23:50.180 --> 00:23:51.760
 Cause that's the most important.

00:23:52.560 --> 00:23:53.920
 That is the most important, Jeff.

00:23:54.140 --> 00:23:58.260
 And sometimes if some of those areas are not working out too well, we can kind of dive into

00:23:58.260 --> 00:23:59.740
 this because we have an identity in that.

00:24:00.000 --> 00:24:01.920
 That's where it becomes addictive and a problem.

00:24:02.540 --> 00:24:04.460
 So I'll take a pause right there.

00:24:04.460 --> 00:24:06.680
 No, really good with, with that.

00:24:06.800 --> 00:24:07.120
 Thank you.

00:24:07.200 --> 00:24:07.360
 All right.

00:24:07.400 --> 00:24:08.820
 Moving on to number three here.

00:24:09.520 --> 00:24:14.180
 Uh, number three, we've got cyber or online relationship.

00:24:14.280 --> 00:24:18.400
 Addiction reading from the article, cyber or online relationship.

00:24:18.400 --> 00:24:24.760
 Addicts are deeply involved with finding and maintaining relationships online, often forgetting

00:24:24.760 --> 00:24:26.700
 and neglecting real life, family and friends.

00:24:26.920 --> 00:24:32.180
 Typically online relationships are formed in chat rooms or different social networking sites,

00:24:32.180 --> 00:24:34.380
 but can occur anywhere.

00:24:34.380 --> 00:24:37.000
 Where one can interact with people online.

00:24:37.520 --> 00:24:42.320
 Often people who pursue online relationships do so while concealing their real identity and appearance.

00:24:42.620 --> 00:24:46.080
 This modern phenomena led to the creation of the term catfish.

00:24:46.580 --> 00:24:46.760
 Okay.

00:24:46.760 --> 00:24:50.200
 So catfish is, is the extreme version of this.

00:24:50.560 --> 00:24:55.640
 Um, but, but to be honest, when I'm talking about, you know, an, an addiction to finding

00:24:55.640 --> 00:25:00.400
 relationships online, I mean, shoot, that's what we tell people to do in digital ministry.

00:25:00.400 --> 00:25:04.520
 Go and find relationships online and, and, and point that to Jesus.

00:25:04.520 --> 00:25:08.320
 Where, um, where, where do we get into a level?

00:25:08.560 --> 00:25:10.180
 I mean, obviously don't catfish people.

00:25:10.180 --> 00:25:12.700
 If you don't know what catfish is, Google it and figure it out.

00:25:12.820 --> 00:25:18.580
 But if we don't want to catfish from it, but like, what's a, is, are there lines where,

00:25:18.820 --> 00:25:20.660
 man, we're too far gone into this?

00:25:20.800 --> 00:25:22.900
 We need to be aware of some of our weaknesses.

00:25:23.120 --> 00:25:24.280
 Where, where would a line like that?

00:25:24.360 --> 00:25:25.000
 What would that look like?

00:25:25.140 --> 00:25:28.960
 Well, I, I would build in some, some healthy, uh, systems.

00:25:29.220 --> 00:25:35.100
 If you're a male, I, I would not be, I would love, I, I best practice have a woman with you,

00:25:35.100 --> 00:25:40.620
 uh, specifically, hopefully your wife or ministry team members that are females as you're,

00:25:40.760 --> 00:25:46.120
 I'm talking if you're developing longer term relational, uh, uh, stuff, especially in ministry,

00:25:46.120 --> 00:25:47.700
 um, to have that.

00:25:47.700 --> 00:25:50.780
 I mean, that's just good practice and, and, and, and be careful.

00:25:50.800 --> 00:25:52.320
 Take a look at your joy buckets.

00:25:52.500 --> 00:25:53.920
 If you, and I'll call them a joy bucket.

00:25:54.020 --> 00:25:58.460
 If your joy bucket is low and you're going into this, just be aware that if you fill up

00:25:58.460 --> 00:26:02.420
 your bucket through all this stuff all the time, all this, you know, all these, these wonderful

00:26:02.420 --> 00:26:06.080
 faces, cause they don't even know you, but yet, you know, you're like the greatest thing

00:26:06.080 --> 00:26:10.060
 since sliced bread, make sure you have joy in other places that people know you.

00:26:10.200 --> 00:26:14.200
 That's very important because this thing can get, it's, it's intoxicating, Jeff, right?

00:26:14.300 --> 00:26:16.660
 I mean, digital ministry is fun, man.

00:26:16.760 --> 00:26:20.780
 I mean, it is a lot of fun, but if we're doing ministry, remember folks, we're doing

00:26:20.780 --> 00:26:23.740
 this out of an over, we're supposed to be doing it out of an overflowing place.

00:26:24.000 --> 00:26:26.860
 We're supposed to be giving and laying our lives down for people.

00:26:26.960 --> 00:26:31.340
 Not, it's not supposed to fill us up in our identities and we get all our brain chemicals

00:26:31.340 --> 00:26:32.360
 from this kind of stuff.

00:26:32.440 --> 00:26:35.880
 That's, that's just something I'm speaking from experience.

00:26:36.000 --> 00:26:41.560
 I'm not here as a high horse guy talking down on all, all of you, you lesser folk or whatever.

00:26:41.700 --> 00:26:42.040
 No, no, no.

00:26:42.200 --> 00:26:44.300
 I was the number one offender of this.

00:26:44.360 --> 00:26:45.700
 That was the chief of centers of this.

00:26:45.700 --> 00:26:47.640
 And it, and it, and it cost me a lot.

00:26:47.780 --> 00:26:52.620
 Now I can't even imagine if I had this back then, this access to this online stuff, the

00:26:52.620 --> 00:26:53.540
 way we do right now.

00:26:53.960 --> 00:26:54.540
 Oh my goodness.

00:26:54.540 --> 00:26:55.640
 I don't know what would have happened.

00:26:55.920 --> 00:26:57.180
 It may have been a lot worse for me.

00:26:57.360 --> 00:26:59.860
 So just a bit of a caution, Jeff, right?

00:26:59.880 --> 00:27:04.000
 Just as we're building guardrails into this best practices and you and I, buddy, we're

00:27:04.000 --> 00:27:06.900
 working on creating systems so people can build real joy together.

00:27:07.300 --> 00:27:09.360
 You know, not pseudo joy, not pseudo peace.

00:27:09.360 --> 00:27:13.680
 And that identity that's based in something of somebody else that's not holy.

00:27:13.780 --> 00:27:14.680
 It's not from the Lord.

00:27:15.080 --> 00:27:16.280
 So I was on the call.

00:27:16.380 --> 00:27:21.340
 I mean, this is confession hour evidently, but I was on a zoom call today, uh, the day

00:27:21.340 --> 00:27:23.240
 of, of, of us doing this, this recording.

00:27:23.980 --> 00:27:28.880
 And, um, it was with a admissions pastor, uh, at a, at a large church here in America.

00:27:29.540 --> 00:27:31.680
 And, um, I, you know, I know this guy.

00:27:31.680 --> 00:27:37.000
 And so we were, we were going to catch up on, on one of the digital pastors that he's

00:27:37.000 --> 00:27:38.060
 supporting to his church.

00:27:38.680 --> 00:27:41.160
 And, um, I, I don't, I don't know what I did.

00:27:41.380 --> 00:27:46.180
 It was, um, you know, completely like just seamless for me.

00:27:46.560 --> 00:27:51.220
 Uh, but when, uh, when I jumped on the call and, you know, when you're on zoom and it takes

00:27:51.220 --> 00:27:53.060
 forever for the audio to sync up.

00:27:53.060 --> 00:27:56.300
 And so it's like, it's the, it's the most awkward part of the day where you're staring

00:27:56.300 --> 00:27:59.540
 at each other and, and, but you're not really communicating anything.

00:27:59.720 --> 00:28:05.120
 And so when the call, when the zoom audio actually connected, he said, I let out this

00:28:05.120 --> 00:28:07.340
 like loud, exhaustive sigh.

00:28:08.440 --> 00:28:11.420
 And, and so immediately, he immediately went into, are you okay?

00:28:11.880 --> 00:28:12.760
 What's going on?

00:28:12.980 --> 00:28:14.620
 And I was like, I'm fine.

00:28:14.920 --> 00:28:17.500
 And he's like, well, why didn't you just let out that big sigh right then?

00:28:17.520 --> 00:28:21.420
 And I was like, I, you're the fourth call in a row.

00:28:21.420 --> 00:28:24.900
 And I just, I, I didn't, you know, I didn't have a moment to breathe.

00:28:24.900 --> 00:28:27.200
 And so I, I, I think that's it.

00:28:27.720 --> 00:28:33.000
 And, um, and, and he's like, I don't know, I don't know what you do, but like, you know,

00:28:33.000 --> 00:28:37.700
 as soon as this calls over, go take a walk, go walk around the house, go grab the dog,

00:28:37.700 --> 00:28:40.420
 uh, go outside, like, you know, refresh.

00:28:40.920 --> 00:28:42.960
 And, and, and it was, it was, it was funny.

00:28:43.020 --> 00:28:46.640
 It's, it's, you know, my knee jerk thought, transparent confession hour here.

00:28:46.820 --> 00:28:47.960
 I don't have time for that.

00:28:48.780 --> 00:28:52.780
 I'm, I'm way too busy, but, but it's, it's like, okay, you know what?

00:28:53.220 --> 00:28:54.600
 I will, I do need to.

00:28:54.620 --> 00:28:58.500
 And it's funny, actually another guy, I got another guy within the past week has called

00:28:58.500 --> 00:28:59.320
 me out on some of that.

00:28:59.500 --> 00:29:02.880
 And I was, so I was sending him an email today and I was like, you know what I've actually

00:29:02.880 --> 00:29:05.240
 discovered has really helped my mental capacity.

00:29:05.580 --> 00:29:08.000
 I take like 15 minute naps a couple of times a day.

00:29:08.320 --> 00:29:11.660
 Like I'll just go, um, sit down on the couch.

00:29:11.760 --> 00:29:16.080
 It's funny, my dog who was just in here, a cuddle up next to me and I'll just like no

00:29:16.080 --> 00:29:16.920
 phone, nothing.

00:29:17.120 --> 00:29:22.580
 The watch has a 15 minute alarm and it just, and it helps me, you know, recharge.

00:29:23.080 --> 00:29:28.500
 And so sometimes I think we're, we're so guilty of, of diving in, whether it's the ministry

00:29:28.500 --> 00:29:32.300
 fix, whether it's the relationship fix, you know, I don't know what the challenge is,

00:29:32.300 --> 00:29:39.120
 but separating from that, uh, and, and recharging from it to your point, finding joy in other

00:29:39.120 --> 00:29:40.520
 things beyond just that.

00:29:40.820 --> 00:29:41.220
 Yeah.

00:29:41.240 --> 00:29:42.460
 That is so important.

00:29:42.960 --> 00:29:47.220
 Um, and, and honestly, something that's been missing from my life and, and seasons.

00:29:47.220 --> 00:29:49.200
 And so, man, this, this is really good.

00:29:49.360 --> 00:29:52.000
 You know, it makes me think, let me give you guys a practical tool, Jeff.

00:29:52.040 --> 00:29:55.980
 That's a really great example, uh, where we practice in Kansas city.

00:29:56.220 --> 00:30:00.040
 Think of, you know, you have the resting heart rate when you take your pulse or you're measuring

00:30:00.040 --> 00:30:02.900
 that and there's a, you know, a healthy heart rate for you.

00:30:03.380 --> 00:30:05.000
 Well, we call that the Shalom zone.

00:30:05.220 --> 00:30:09.260
 And that means you act like yourself when you're in between my hands are between my chin and

00:30:09.260 --> 00:30:10.020
 my head right now.

00:30:10.760 --> 00:30:15.180
 And, uh, you see my face and I'm looking at you guys and it's just like, I'm so glad to

00:30:15.180 --> 00:30:15.660
 be with you.

00:30:15.720 --> 00:30:19.640
 And I'll, sometimes when, when I'm really amped up, I'm going to drop my hands now.

00:30:19.720 --> 00:30:23.400
 That's like, ah, my brain's going and I'm excited and all this kind of thing.

00:30:23.580 --> 00:30:27.480
 And, ah, and the mind is racing and running, even though it was good stuff going on.

00:30:28.100 --> 00:30:32.940
 Remember to return to the resting heart rate of your hearts, of your Shalom, of your peace.

00:30:33.720 --> 00:30:34.840
 Listen to your body.

00:30:34.940 --> 00:30:37.420
 That is a skill we practice at Hesed Discipleship Network.

00:30:38.020 --> 00:30:39.500
 Listen to your body.

00:30:39.500 --> 00:30:45.040
 If you're all amped up in an amped up, overwhelmed, excitable place all the time, um, we may want

00:30:45.040 --> 00:30:48.640
 to ask some certain questions ministering out of that place.

00:30:48.800 --> 00:30:49.160
 Okay.

00:30:49.520 --> 00:30:52.940
 Cause that Jesus didn't administer out of an excited, excitable place.

00:30:53.080 --> 00:30:56.520
 He wasn't like, oh my God, here comes the next sign and wonder and father, what are you

00:30:56.520 --> 00:30:56.820
 going to do?

00:30:57.000 --> 00:30:58.300
 Like, this is just amazing guys.

00:30:58.320 --> 00:31:01.540
 Isn't it like in like these, in like all this high energy, like, okay, if you're high

00:31:01.540 --> 00:31:02.940
 energy, don't, don't get upset with me.

00:31:02.960 --> 00:31:04.060
 I'm a more low energy guy.

00:31:04.100 --> 00:31:04.640
 That's okay.

00:31:05.100 --> 00:31:09.960
 You could be high energy, but just what is your peace in your body telling you when you're

00:31:09.960 --> 00:31:13.500
 stepping into this digital ministry, when you're ministering to people, if it's always

00:31:13.500 --> 00:31:16.620
 like, ah, we have to learn how to quiet.

00:31:17.080 --> 00:31:20.580
 We minister his strength and his rest comes from the quiet place.

00:31:20.960 --> 00:31:24.140
 And whatever that is for you, Jeff took a walk, whatever that is for you, what brings

00:31:24.140 --> 00:31:24.560
 you life?

00:31:24.640 --> 00:31:25.320
 What lights you up?

00:31:25.360 --> 00:31:28.200
 Go talk to your kids, pet your dog, play with the cat.

00:31:28.460 --> 00:31:29.020
 I don't know.

00:31:29.120 --> 00:31:31.600
 Do something else that brings a lot of life to you.

00:31:31.820 --> 00:31:35.040
 Connect with a friend over coffee and talk and just laugh.

00:31:35.400 --> 00:31:39.520
 Whatever that is to get back to the resting heart rate of your Shalom zone, find it.

00:31:39.900 --> 00:31:40.120
 Okay.

00:31:40.160 --> 00:31:41.760
 So listen to your body.

00:31:42.360 --> 00:31:45.300
 I hope that, that, and that, that's one thing that will interrupt the addiction cycle

00:31:45.300 --> 00:31:46.860
 faster than anything else.

00:31:46.980 --> 00:31:47.380
 So.

00:31:47.980 --> 00:31:49.020
 That's so good.

00:31:49.260 --> 00:31:54.000
 Um, you know, and that, that's, that's almost, that's a little bit of, you know, not trying

00:31:54.000 --> 00:31:55.560
 to control it.

00:31:55.560 --> 00:31:59.900
 Um, and, and, uh, what you were speaking of earlier, man, that, that's, that's beautiful.

00:31:59.900 --> 00:32:04.040
 Hey, let's, uh, let's shift gears to, uh, to number four.

00:32:04.640 --> 00:32:09.860
 Uh, and, and so just, just to review five types of internet addiction, number one, cyber

00:32:09.860 --> 00:32:17.360
 sex, uh, addiction, uh, number two, net compulsions, number three, cyber online relationship addiction,

00:32:17.360 --> 00:32:22.340
 number four, uh, the new one, compulsive information seeking.

00:32:22.340 --> 00:32:27.900
 The article says here, the internet provides users with a wealth of data and knowledge for

00:32:27.900 --> 00:32:32.540
 some, the opportunity to find information so easily has turned into an uncontrollable

00:32:32.540 --> 00:32:35.520
 urge to gather and organize data.

00:32:36.060 --> 00:32:42.200
 In some cases, information seeking is a manifestation of preexisting obsessive compulsive tendencies,

00:32:42.880 --> 00:32:47.680
 uh, compulsive information seeking can also reduce work productivity and potentially lead

00:32:47.680 --> 00:32:49.560
 to, uh, job termination.

00:32:49.700 --> 00:32:51.960
 There's other things obviously within the article.

00:32:52.060 --> 00:32:55.580
 I don't know, Chris, as you're hearing this, man, do you have any, any thoughts, anything you'd

00:32:55.580 --> 00:32:56.000
 like to share?

00:32:56.260 --> 00:32:56.420
 Yeah.

00:32:56.520 --> 00:32:57.940
 You know, it's interesting.

00:32:58.180 --> 00:33:03.040
 I have, I, I, I'm not like this, but I know I have a number of friends that are very

00:33:03.040 --> 00:33:08.880
 informationally, like they will read all the books once the next book comes in, they read

00:33:08.880 --> 00:33:12.900
 it and, and they, and they're very, and it's not a, it's a beautiful thing.

00:33:12.960 --> 00:33:16.660
 God designed us with a left brain and a right brain and there, there could be highly left

00:33:16.660 --> 00:33:21.840
 brained and, and, but sometimes when it gets a little bit extreme, we can read every book

00:33:21.840 --> 00:33:23.540
 on the thing as a way of controlling.

00:33:23.540 --> 00:33:28.020
 Cause if we understand the problem, if we can get to like the solution of the problem by

00:33:28.020 --> 00:33:31.840
 reading it and intellectualizing it, like there's a certain sense of control and peace

00:33:31.840 --> 00:33:32.340
 that comes.

00:33:32.740 --> 00:33:36.900
 So the internet is just taking us to like extreme levels now with a click of a button.

00:33:36.980 --> 00:33:40.780
 You don't have to go, Jeff, you don't have to go to your bookstore anymore to do this.

00:33:40.900 --> 00:33:41.640
 It's all right there.

00:33:41.700 --> 00:33:44.780
 The click of a mouse, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, right?

00:33:45.800 --> 00:33:50.500
 So, uh, I think that's what that's talking to, or for, for those of my, for those of my,

00:33:50.640 --> 00:33:53.380
 you know, you, if you're listening to this right now, it doesn't make you a bad person.

00:33:53.640 --> 00:33:54.440
 We love you.

00:33:54.500 --> 00:33:55.340
 We love your brain.

00:33:55.420 --> 00:33:56.420
 We want your knowledge.

00:33:56.680 --> 00:34:00.600
 And at the same time, we could just keep going and like three hours have passed and the family's

00:34:00.600 --> 00:34:01.360
 like, where's daddy?

00:34:01.460 --> 00:34:03.160
 Is he in the basement again, reading more articles?

00:34:03.560 --> 00:34:04.660
 Like that's hurtful.

00:34:05.100 --> 00:34:05.460
 We got it.

00:34:05.500 --> 00:34:07.200
 We got to keep an eye on that, ladies and gentlemen.

00:34:07.560 --> 00:34:08.940
 So that's my thoughts on that.

00:34:09.180 --> 00:34:10.180
 That's, that's interesting.

00:34:10.780 --> 00:34:19.540
 Um, you know, in, in a, in a, in a, in a ministry, in a digital ministry context, um, this, this

00:34:19.540 --> 00:34:24.500
 may be a jump, but there's, what we're doing is so disruptive.

00:34:25.080 --> 00:34:31.160
 Um, and, and in many ways, I think there's, there's a challenge for us to read up as much

00:34:31.160 --> 00:34:38.980
 as we can, uh, to get exposed to the right answers, the content to fight for, uh, to get

00:34:38.980 --> 00:34:45.480
 upset and to get agitated over the wrong articles, um, the articles that are, are naysayers and

00:34:45.480 --> 00:34:47.020
 again, against some of what we're doing.

00:34:47.500 --> 00:34:53.740
 Um, you know, I just would be, I've caught myself just to be honest in that, in, in that

00:34:53.740 --> 00:34:59.940
 doom scroll in that, uh, I'm either, you know, within my echo chamber that I was in, I'm

00:34:59.940 --> 00:35:06.580
 either hugely supportive of the voices that I'm hearing or, um, anti that and frustrated

00:35:06.580 --> 00:35:10.060
 and angry because others aren't, aren't agreeing.

00:35:10.380 --> 00:35:15.660
 And, and it became more about, honestly, became more about the content than really the, the

00:35:15.660 --> 00:35:16.060
 people.

00:35:16.780 --> 00:35:23.020
 Um, you know, and I've even, I've even met planters that, that I've, I've had conversations

00:35:23.020 --> 00:35:27.400
 of, Hey, like you've, you've talked to me for hours about your church and you've not told

00:35:27.400 --> 00:35:32.200
 me once about any like life change or people that are actually attending it.

00:35:32.540 --> 00:35:38.040
 And so, you know, even as we're, we're wrestling with, um, with some of this, uh, the information

00:35:38.600 --> 00:35:42.040
 seeking, um, I would challenge us.

00:35:42.040 --> 00:35:46.960
 Let's remember to keep the people first and foremost, um, at, at heart here.

00:35:46.960 --> 00:35:50.560
 And as we're doing the ministry, recognizing that, you know, like I said, maybe that's

00:35:50.560 --> 00:35:56.520
 a stretch from, you know, compulsive information seeking, but I know that very often as, as

00:35:56.520 --> 00:36:00.680
 disruptors, you're trying to find people that agree with you.

00:36:00.940 --> 00:36:05.180
 And to be honest, that's very hard to find in this space.

00:36:05.180 --> 00:36:10.840
 So I would challenge you to, to realize that and keep it, join the fam, you know, be part

00:36:10.840 --> 00:36:14.820
 of what we're doing over at digital church network and, uh, and find, find some community

00:36:14.820 --> 00:36:15.140
 there.

00:36:15.440 --> 00:36:16.700
 So anyway, all right.

00:36:16.700 --> 00:36:18.120
 Hey, let's move on to number five.

00:36:18.700 --> 00:36:25.680
 Um, number five here, computer or gaming addiction, computer addiction, sometimes referred.

00:36:25.960 --> 00:36:30.020
 Oh, Oh, Oh, we just lost a lot of our friends right now.

00:36:30.100 --> 00:36:31.000
 And now just kidding.

00:36:31.060 --> 00:36:31.340
 Go ahead.

00:36:31.400 --> 00:36:31.900
 Keep going.

00:36:32.160 --> 00:36:34.980
 Cause we got a lot of gaming pastors that are going, I'm not a gamer.

00:36:35.180 --> 00:36:36.740
 No, but our friends are right.

00:36:36.840 --> 00:36:38.860
 I mean, there's a lot of guys and gals.

00:36:39.300 --> 00:36:39.640
 Yeah.

00:36:40.640 --> 00:36:41.440
 A lot of kids.

00:36:41.520 --> 00:36:42.720
 How are we going to reach the kids?

00:36:42.800 --> 00:36:43.740
 They're in the games.

00:36:43.740 --> 00:36:44.100
 Right.

00:36:44.200 --> 00:36:45.320
 So yeah, go ahead.

00:36:45.320 --> 00:36:50.400
 Uh, computer addiction, sometimes referred to as computer gaming addiction, uh, involves

00:36:50.400 --> 00:36:53.020
 online and offline activities that can be done with a computer.

00:36:53.020 --> 00:36:53.780
 Hey, no kidding.

00:36:54.120 --> 00:37:00.780
 As computers, uh, become more widely available, uh, games such as, oh, oh my gosh, this is,

00:37:00.920 --> 00:37:02.060
 this is a dated article.

00:37:02.160 --> 00:37:03.240
 It's going to get ugly right here.

00:37:04.520 --> 00:37:05.440
 Yes, it is.

00:37:05.820 --> 00:37:06.080
 Yeah.

00:37:06.160 --> 00:37:11.040
 Games such as solitaire, Tetris, and Minesweep were programmed into their system.

00:37:12.260 --> 00:37:18.600
 Researchers quickly found that obsessive computer games playing was becoming a problem in certain

00:37:18.600 --> 00:37:19.240
 areas.

00:37:19.560 --> 00:37:21.260
 Uh, that's, that's awesome.

00:37:21.540 --> 00:37:24.240
 I'm addicted to Minesweeper.

00:37:24.500 --> 00:37:24.860
 Okay.

00:37:24.860 --> 00:37:30.340
 Um, but the, the, well, let's, let's say if I was addicted to a game, it was probably Minesweeper

00:37:30.340 --> 00:37:31.980
 like 25 years ago.

00:37:31.980 --> 00:37:36.600
 Um, but, but really, I mean, let's, let's, let's just be realistic.

00:37:36.600 --> 00:37:40.440
 The, uh, the, I've got a headset right here on my desk.

00:37:40.740 --> 00:37:45.860
 Uh, the addictivity ability for people to get lost in these worlds, to get lost in these

00:37:45.860 --> 00:37:53.800
 games, um, to Fortnite, Roblox, um, the different worlds that we live in, um, whether it's computer

00:37:53.800 --> 00:37:57.820
 or gaming addictions or platform addictions or, or whatever you want the adjective to be

00:37:57.820 --> 00:37:58.900
 on the addiction.

00:37:59.580 --> 00:38:04.960
 Um, it's very easy for us to get lost in that space.

00:38:05.360 --> 00:38:10.620
 And so the, the challenge for, listen, I, there's a, there's, I, I, I don't know that

00:38:10.620 --> 00:38:11.760
 I've said this on the podcast.

00:38:12.240 --> 00:38:19.120
 There is a CF CEO of, uh, one of the top Christian, um, tech companies in America.

00:38:19.920 --> 00:38:23.880
 Uh, good friend of mine, I'm having a conversation with him about virtual reality.

00:38:24.580 --> 00:38:28.920
 He says to me, Jeff, what are you going to tell the church?

00:38:28.920 --> 00:38:34.300
 And what is the church going to tell people when the world figures out that virtual reality

00:38:34.300 --> 00:38:41.080
 is actually pleasurable, more pleasurable is going to be better than physical reality.

00:38:41.560 --> 00:38:47.480
 Like when the average person's perception of the virtual world is more pleasing to them

00:38:47.480 --> 00:38:48.520
 than the physical.

00:38:48.740 --> 00:38:52.580
 And so they just want to live in the virtual and ignore the physical realm.

00:38:52.760 --> 00:38:53.600
 One hundred percent.

00:38:54.040 --> 00:38:56.580
 He's like, that's where this technology is taking us.

00:38:57.240 --> 00:38:59.860
 How's the church going to respond in that situation?

00:38:59.860 --> 00:39:04.960
 We can have that conversation later, but that just really starts to scratch the surface of

00:39:04.960 --> 00:39:11.760
 the addictive power of these headsets and, and, and of this, this technology, even in,

00:39:11.860 --> 00:39:13.040
 in our mobile phones.

00:39:13.340 --> 00:39:20.540
 And so, and Chris, this gets back to this whole thing of like, we, we have to be in the world,

00:39:20.540 --> 00:39:23.140
 but not of the world.

00:39:23.540 --> 00:39:27.020
 And so how do we, how do we draw that line?

00:39:27.380 --> 00:39:29.300
 I want to reach people in virtual reality.

00:39:29.300 --> 00:39:30.800
 I don't want to become addicted to it.

00:39:31.120 --> 00:39:37.220
 I want to play video games to connect with the mission field implications, uh, but not at

00:39:37.220 --> 00:39:40.120
 the level of, of losing my, my health.

00:39:40.980 --> 00:39:44.080
 How do, how do we distinguish between what's healthy and unhealthy?

00:39:44.420 --> 00:39:48.600
 Seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness and all things shall be given unto you.

00:39:49.020 --> 00:39:49.420
 Right?

00:39:50.000 --> 00:39:52.360
 So first things first, it's the glad face.

00:39:52.540 --> 00:39:55.920
 It's the peaceful, joyful face of God that loves you so much.

00:39:56.160 --> 00:39:58.060
 We got to be steeped in that as an identity.

00:39:58.560 --> 00:40:00.120
 Very critical, ladies and gentlemen.

00:40:00.460 --> 00:40:02.280
 If we don't have that, we've lost the battle.

00:40:02.600 --> 00:40:05.880
 And do we feel like an orphan, like we don't belong to God and his family?

00:40:06.200 --> 00:40:07.440
 Do we actually feel that way?

00:40:07.780 --> 00:40:08.260
 Oh, sure.

00:40:08.280 --> 00:40:09.020
 We say the prayers.

00:40:09.140 --> 00:40:10.800
 We sing the songs on Sundays, right?

00:40:11.220 --> 00:40:11.920
 God loves me.

00:40:12.000 --> 00:40:15.520
 This I know because the Bible tells me so, but do we actually feel that?

00:40:15.580 --> 00:40:17.480
 Is that an experiential reality for us?

00:40:17.820 --> 00:40:18.040
 Right?

00:40:18.640 --> 00:40:20.520
 And, and, and that's part one.

00:40:20.640 --> 00:40:24.440
 Part two is first commandment, love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind,

00:40:24.460 --> 00:40:24.680
 and strength.

00:40:24.680 --> 00:40:30.780
 Second commandment, love your neighbors, yourself, the great collaboration, the great, uh, uh,

00:40:30.780 --> 00:40:33.180
 secure attachment with one another in love.

00:40:33.460 --> 00:40:37.140
 You'll know my bad disciples by how you love one another.

00:40:37.480 --> 00:40:41.340
 All this stuff with the virtual reality, we're seeking joy and peace.

00:40:41.560 --> 00:40:43.880
 We're seeking belonging, joy and peace.

00:40:43.960 --> 00:40:45.220
 That's what we want at our core.

00:40:45.280 --> 00:40:47.380
 That never changes for humans, right?

00:40:47.840 --> 00:40:52.300
 And if we don't have first things first, second thing second in our life, the great commission

00:40:52.300 --> 00:40:53.280
 is going to get all wonky.

00:40:53.900 --> 00:40:55.240
 This whole, and it could be anything.

00:40:55.300 --> 00:40:56.140
 It doesn't have to be a digital.

00:40:56.220 --> 00:40:57.100
 It could be anything.

00:40:57.520 --> 00:40:58.300
 It'll get wonky.

00:40:58.620 --> 00:41:01.920
 So Jeff, it's, it's a big, it's a huge challenge.

00:41:01.920 --> 00:41:02.780
 It's doable.

00:41:03.280 --> 00:41:04.140
 It's very doable.

00:41:04.800 --> 00:41:10.100
 But I think that we need to raise up disciples that are emotionally healthy, that can help

00:41:10.100 --> 00:41:13.160
 people when they get out of balance to call them back to themselves again.

00:41:13.260 --> 00:41:14.080
 You're not a machine.

00:41:14.400 --> 00:41:18.980
 You're not a, you're not a someone that's just this constant pleasure, joy seeker all the

00:41:18.980 --> 00:41:19.160
 time.

00:41:19.220 --> 00:41:20.880
 That's pseudo artificial all the time.

00:41:21.260 --> 00:41:22.220
 That's not who we are.

00:41:22.400 --> 00:41:25.320
 We are people that are, are, are, are founded in Christ.

00:41:25.440 --> 00:41:26.360
 We're loved by our father.

00:41:26.460 --> 00:41:27.600
 We're loved by one another.

00:41:27.600 --> 00:41:31.320
 And we're going as missionaries to serve, to lay our lives down in these digital spaces.

00:41:31.820 --> 00:41:36.500
 If we mess up, if we try to flip that equation, Jeff, we're going to get out of balance and

00:41:36.500 --> 00:41:40.640
 our, and, and, and there, there will be costs to it, which what this addiction will have,

00:41:40.660 --> 00:41:41.900
 because we're creatures of addiction.

00:41:42.560 --> 00:41:46.540
 You know, Paul talks about this in Romans, like we are creatures of worship.

00:41:47.000 --> 00:41:48.620
 Are we going to worship the created?

00:41:49.100 --> 00:41:54.060
 Are we going to worship the creator and the creator that's in one another as we mediate

00:41:54.060 --> 00:41:54.860
 grace to one another?

00:41:54.940 --> 00:41:56.840
 We've got to have healthy connections, Jeff.

00:41:57.060 --> 00:42:01.520
 We got to have solid relationships, Jeff, that are not based on how good we are as ministers

00:42:01.520 --> 00:42:03.580
 in these digital spaces, but who we are.

00:42:03.900 --> 00:42:05.420
 We, we move from grace.

00:42:05.420 --> 00:42:06.580
 We move from peace.

00:42:06.660 --> 00:42:07.380
 We move from joy.

00:42:07.460 --> 00:42:10.120
 We don't try to find joy and peace by doing this stuff.

00:42:10.160 --> 00:42:14.400
 If that's the case, I mean, I'll see you in a couple of years and, and I'll, I'll be there

00:42:14.400 --> 00:42:18.460
 for you, you know, and pick up the pieces with your family and stuff, because I've been

00:42:18.460 --> 00:42:19.320
 there, I've done it, buddy.

00:42:19.740 --> 00:42:21.000
 I've been there and I've done it.

00:42:21.240 --> 00:42:22.700
 And I don't want to see you go through that.

00:42:22.760 --> 00:42:24.760
 If you're watching this right now, we love you guys.

00:42:25.340 --> 00:42:30.040
 So, you know, has said, you know, let's go deeper in has said, Jeff, let's figure this

00:42:30.040 --> 00:42:33.100
 out as a community together and belonging and love and peace.

00:42:33.440 --> 00:42:33.840
 Right.

00:42:34.020 --> 00:42:38.480
 That's, I mean, that's a little bit where, I mean, accountability comes into play here

00:42:38.480 --> 00:42:45.720
 as, as well, where it's, um, being in a, in a accountability group, a group of people

00:42:45.720 --> 00:42:51.200
 that are, that are holding you accountable, not just to execute the ministry that you feel

00:42:51.200 --> 00:42:55.860
 like God's calling you to do, um, but to make sure that, that you're in a relationship

00:42:55.860 --> 00:43:01.360
 with people that can keep you grounded, that can keep you, um, secure, that can, can, can

00:43:01.360 --> 00:43:03.060
 tell you when you're overstretching.

00:43:03.620 --> 00:43:07.860
 Um, and when you're, you're walking that line that, that you should.

00:43:07.980 --> 00:43:08.100
 Yeah.

00:43:08.240 --> 00:43:09.500
 Remind you who you are.

00:43:09.880 --> 00:43:11.820
 Remind you who you are.

00:43:11.900 --> 00:43:12.300
 Right.

00:43:12.820 --> 00:43:13.080
 Yeah.

00:43:13.380 --> 00:43:14.780
 That's what accountability is.

00:43:14.780 --> 00:43:16.320
 We're to be healthy mirrors for one another.

00:43:16.620 --> 00:43:18.080
 Chris, this is not who you are.

00:43:18.160 --> 00:43:21.740
 You're like all wired out and you're just, you got to unplug, bro.

00:43:21.840 --> 00:43:23.260
 You're like, we, we miss you.

00:43:23.400 --> 00:43:26.740
 You know, you're fading on us or you're just so excitable all the time.

00:43:26.760 --> 00:43:29.120
 I can't even understand what, you know, it's like, wait a minute.

00:43:29.200 --> 00:43:29.920
 Where are you?

00:43:30.040 --> 00:43:30.620
 Come back.

00:43:30.760 --> 00:43:31.360
 We love you.

00:43:31.440 --> 00:43:31.920
 It's okay.

00:43:32.540 --> 00:43:36.640
 So when we talk about accountability, I think sometimes that's going to be a harsh word.

00:43:36.780 --> 00:43:38.100
 And then we got to get stuff done.

00:43:38.120 --> 00:43:38.740
 We got to execute.

00:43:38.800 --> 00:43:39.640
 We got to hit our goals.

00:43:39.640 --> 00:43:40.320
 That's important.

00:43:40.640 --> 00:43:44.780
 But if we, if it's not from an identity place of loving people and calling them back to who

00:43:44.780 --> 00:43:47.560
 they truly are, then we get into rewards.

00:43:47.740 --> 00:43:51.420
 We get into things where Jesus had some pretty interesting words to say about that.

00:43:51.460 --> 00:43:52.820
 But Lord, did we, did we not do this?

00:43:52.900 --> 00:43:53.700
 Did we not do this?

00:43:53.740 --> 00:43:54.640
 And we did not do this.

00:43:54.680 --> 00:43:55.900
 And then what does he say to us, Jeff?

00:43:56.280 --> 00:43:58.380
 He goes, I, did I, do I know you?

00:43:59.020 --> 00:44:02.940
 Did I, did I even tell you to do some of this stuff?

00:44:03.060 --> 00:44:05.780
 It's like, whoa, let that sink in a little bit, guys.

00:44:06.140 --> 00:44:10.440
 And that's why we have friends that are close to us that can remind us when we get a little

00:44:10.440 --> 00:44:11.220
 bit out of balance.

00:44:11.380 --> 00:44:12.160
 I don't want perfection.

00:44:12.300 --> 00:44:13.220
 We're not here for perfection.

00:44:13.540 --> 00:44:14.500
 We're here for growth.

00:44:14.880 --> 00:44:19.200
 We're here for shalom, reminding people who they are and their best selves in Christ.

00:44:19.440 --> 00:44:24.980
 We may need to come up with a new word because accountability has such a negative tone.

00:44:25.440 --> 00:44:29.660
 Like accountability has such a, I mean, when you hear accountability, you hear micromanagement.

00:44:30.960 --> 00:44:34.520
 And, but that's, that's not, that's not at all what this is.

00:44:34.520 --> 00:44:39.020
 And so, I mean, I'm not saying we need to make up a word, but maybe like go on, you know,

00:44:39.040 --> 00:44:43.820
 a synonym or something, synonym.com, theasaurus.com and try to find it.

00:44:43.820 --> 00:44:51.020
 Because like, there's, there's so much more than micromanagement that we need, uh, in this.

00:44:51.500 --> 00:44:53.580
 Um, you need somebody who's got your back.

00:44:53.640 --> 00:44:55.360
 You need somebody who can be honest with you.

00:44:55.500 --> 00:44:57.560
 You need somebody who can call your bluff.

00:44:57.620 --> 00:44:59.240
 You need somebody who can tell you to go home.

00:44:59.780 --> 00:45:02.140
 Um, you need somebody who can take your phone away.

00:45:02.560 --> 00:45:05.380
 Like you find those people in your lives.

00:45:05.380 --> 00:45:09.720
 I know, I know it's, even when we're doing this recording, uh, digital church network tonight's

00:45:09.720 --> 00:45:16.180
 launching, uh, 12 different digital networks where we're, we're providing that level of

00:45:16.180 --> 00:45:23.120
 accountability for, uh, I think probably close to 70 different planners or pastors that, that

00:45:23.120 --> 00:45:24.180
 are doing digital ministry.

00:45:24.180 --> 00:45:25.400
 And so it's our desire.

00:45:25.880 --> 00:45:32.000
 Um, and it's funny, like I say the word accountability thing and not realizing the, like the negative,

00:45:32.000 --> 00:45:36.000
 because it doesn't necessarily mean that to me, or at least I can see other perspectives,

00:45:36.000 --> 00:45:41.080
 but it's funny whenever I say accountability to a physical pastor or digital pastor at a

00:45:41.080 --> 00:45:45.240
 physical church, like they, they, they scrunch up, like they get, they get worried.

00:45:45.240 --> 00:45:46.200
 Like it's, it's a negative.

00:45:46.200 --> 00:45:50.840
 Like I just slapped their hand and, and literally it's like, I don't, I don't, I don't mean that.

00:45:50.840 --> 00:45:53.360
 I, you know, we don't, you don't need another executive pastor.

00:45:53.460 --> 00:45:54.080
 You have one.

00:45:54.280 --> 00:45:56.160
 You don't need another person telling you what to do.

00:45:56.200 --> 00:45:56.880
 You have that.

00:45:57.080 --> 00:46:03.640
 You need somebody who's got your six, um, and it can help you, um, stay tapped into God

00:46:03.640 --> 00:46:05.640
 when you get overloaded in those situations.

00:46:06.140 --> 00:46:11.040
 And so we'd love to connect you with some networks to help you, um, with that message me, you know,

00:46:11.040 --> 00:46:14.700
 I don't, I don't know where we're going to be with that by the time the streets, but, um,

00:46:14.700 --> 00:46:20.720
 would love to help people get connected into a group to find that accountability through DCN.

00:46:21.220 --> 00:46:25.620
 Well, man, listen, that was the five, um, and I'm probably guilty of three or four of them

00:46:25.620 --> 00:46:26.460
 right off the bat.

00:46:26.680 --> 00:46:29.140
 I'm not a gamer, so I'll let you come to your own conclusions there.

00:46:29.420 --> 00:46:31.100
 Um, but let's, uh, let's do this.

00:46:31.160 --> 00:46:36.220
 What, what other, um, what other implications, what are some other takeaways just as we were

00:46:36.220 --> 00:46:37.340
 talking through this?

00:46:37.420 --> 00:46:38.900
 What, what else is jumping out at you, Chris?

00:46:39.160 --> 00:46:40.360
 I'll tell, I'll tell you this.

00:46:40.380 --> 00:46:41.640
 I love digital ministry.

00:46:41.640 --> 00:46:42.820
 I was born for this.

00:46:42.940 --> 00:46:43.760
 I really am.

00:46:44.020 --> 00:46:48.040
 I wish I had this 10 to 15 years ago with the ministry I was doing back then because the Lord

00:46:48.040 --> 00:46:50.320
 showed me it, but this had not existed at this point.

00:46:50.840 --> 00:46:51.440
 Praise God.

00:46:51.520 --> 00:46:52.160
 We're here now.

00:46:52.160 --> 00:46:53.740
 And I'm, I'm sad for COVID.

00:46:53.860 --> 00:46:57.340
 I'm grateful for COVID and the opportunities are amazing, but I'm going to tell you something

00:46:57.340 --> 00:46:57.900
 right now.

00:46:58.600 --> 00:47:00.940
 It's, it's the relationships that mean the most to me.

00:47:00.960 --> 00:47:03.820
 I'm most excited about even being with you right now.

00:47:03.860 --> 00:47:04.720
 I love this, Jeff.

00:47:04.740 --> 00:47:05.600
 We're making a difference.

00:47:05.620 --> 00:47:08.320
 We're talking to people and I love you guys, but you know what?

00:47:08.480 --> 00:47:12.700
 I love, I love my relationship with you, Jeff, more than I love doing DCN with you, believe

00:47:12.700 --> 00:47:13.100
 it or not.

00:47:13.100 --> 00:47:14.380
 Like I enjoy our friendship.

00:47:15.020 --> 00:47:18.900
 That's, and that's, you know, Jesus doesn't need us to kind of do it.

00:47:18.900 --> 00:47:20.420
 He created the universe, ladies and gentlemen.

00:47:20.460 --> 00:47:24.900
 I mean, he really needs us to go disciple and like, he has a thought and stuff happens.

00:47:25.060 --> 00:47:26.260
 He wants to partner with us.

00:47:26.640 --> 00:47:28.080
 He wants the relationship.

00:47:28.680 --> 00:47:31.120
 So we need to be relationally grounded.

00:47:31.240 --> 00:47:36.120
 We need to be relationally strong, especially in the digital space because of the temptations

00:47:36.120 --> 00:47:37.060
 and the traps are many.

00:47:37.480 --> 00:47:38.560
 That's where I'm thinking, Jeff.

00:47:38.560 --> 00:47:43.820
 I'm also thinking, you know, those that are in physical relationships where you have five

00:47:43.820 --> 00:47:45.680
 sensory relationships with other people.

00:47:45.740 --> 00:47:46.500
 Who are those people?

00:47:46.580 --> 00:47:47.380
 How are those going?

00:47:47.900 --> 00:47:48.900
 Always take a look at that.

00:47:49.000 --> 00:47:53.280
 Always be your first ministry is your house and your good friends and those that are right

00:47:53.280 --> 00:47:53.680
 around you.

00:47:53.680 --> 00:47:54.680
 That's your first ministry.

00:47:54.940 --> 00:47:55.240
 Okay.

00:47:55.440 --> 00:47:59.080
 Because what we're going to, this is what, whatever we have there, we overflow and we

00:47:59.080 --> 00:48:00.220
 bring into the digital space.

00:48:00.320 --> 00:48:01.060
 Keep that in mind.

00:48:01.420 --> 00:48:05.460
 What we do in the small places that nobody sees, it flows out into the open spaces.

00:48:06.040 --> 00:48:06.360
 Okay.

00:48:06.480 --> 00:48:08.300
 So let's steward the little things well.

00:48:08.360 --> 00:48:13.120
 Let's steward the things that are actually not 2D screens, but three-dimensional, four-dimensional

00:48:13.120 --> 00:48:14.100
 right now in front of us.

00:48:14.160 --> 00:48:17.900
 Let's do that really well too, because then we're going to have an overflowing life and

00:48:17.900 --> 00:48:18.760
 no one to unplug.

00:48:19.140 --> 00:48:20.880
 Take the earphones out.

00:48:21.340 --> 00:48:22.440
 Go take a walk, Jeff.

00:48:22.740 --> 00:48:23.820
 Go enjoy your dog.

00:48:23.820 --> 00:48:26.440
 That's like, you know, I hear that gets upset.

00:48:26.560 --> 00:48:29.640
 He wants your, he or she, I don't even know if it's a he or she, wants your attention.

00:48:29.860 --> 00:48:31.000
 Pet the dog, man.

00:48:31.320 --> 00:48:32.380
 Dog loves you.

00:48:32.800 --> 00:48:34.320
 You know, dog knows love.

00:48:34.540 --> 00:48:37.200
 Probably most of us can do it better than most humans can.

00:48:37.740 --> 00:48:42.680
 So I, I'm, I'm joking, but it's a serious, sober subject and I'm glad that, I hope this

00:48:42.680 --> 00:48:46.780
 was helpful, Jeff, for people watching this today, that this is not a heavy handed thing

00:48:46.780 --> 00:48:48.500
 or everyone's got an addiction, but you know what?

00:48:48.500 --> 00:48:49.540
 We all have addicted tendencies.

00:48:49.660 --> 00:48:50.600
 You got to keep an eye on them.

00:48:51.060 --> 00:48:51.880
 That's where I'm thinking.

00:48:51.880 --> 00:48:53.300
 That's where my headspace is.

00:48:53.660 --> 00:49:00.000
 The reality is, is that we're, we're doing ministry in, in a very addictive space.

00:49:00.720 --> 00:49:03.780
 Um, and, and, and I, and I truly believe this.

00:49:04.300 --> 00:49:10.080
 Um, because it's addictive, we, we can't, we can't not go in there.

00:49:10.580 --> 00:49:17.060
 Uh, and so, uh, like to the, to the person that says God doesn't belong in the metaverse.

00:49:17.060 --> 00:49:20.420
 I think my God is big enough that he can handle the metaverse.

00:49:20.800 --> 00:49:23.320
 And, and, and, and I think that I, I just, it's funny.

00:49:23.320 --> 00:49:31.300
 I just wrote a blog on, on Psalms 139 that says God is the God, even in the metaverse and,

00:49:31.300 --> 00:49:34.720
 and, and God being as powerful that he is, the metaverse doesn't scare him.

00:49:35.020 --> 00:49:37.220
 Uh, it, it needs to scare us.

00:49:37.740 --> 00:49:43.860
 Um, but we, with God's authority need to go into the metaverse.

00:49:44.020 --> 00:49:45.840
 Um, and, and, and so it's, it's funny.

00:49:45.960 --> 00:49:51.320
 You, you quoted Matt six, Matt 633, six first, first, I can't talk today.

00:49:51.380 --> 00:49:51.560
 Sorry.

00:49:52.040 --> 00:49:55.700
 Seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness and all these things will be added unto you.

00:49:56.120 --> 00:49:58.320
 34, honestly, is one of my favorite verses.

00:49:58.520 --> 00:50:00.740
 Therefore, do not worry about tomorrow for tomorrow.

00:50:00.860 --> 00:50:01.440
 Worry about itself.

00:50:01.440 --> 00:50:03.420
 Each day is enough trouble of its own.

00:50:03.800 --> 00:50:10.260
 Um, and, and, and as, and as much as we need to keep our eyes focused on, on God, um, and,

00:50:10.260 --> 00:50:12.500
 and have him validate and strengthen it.

00:50:12.620 --> 00:50:18.860
 And to your point, Chris, be the joy that overflows into the ministry that, that we are.

00:50:19.280 --> 00:50:25.620
 Um, I, I think we need to prepare ourselves for it, but don't worry about it because our

00:50:25.620 --> 00:50:27.560
 eyes are focused on God.

00:50:27.680 --> 00:50:33.460
 I think there's things we need to do to be wise, but in the end, we're trusting God to

00:50:33.460 --> 00:50:36.600
 protect us, um, in that season.

00:50:36.600 --> 00:50:41.180
 And so I think that we're, we're going to be walking this line here with, with digital

00:50:41.180 --> 00:50:43.200
 church network and the church digital.

00:50:43.200 --> 00:50:49.660
 We're going to be bringing in, um, uh, some, some more voices that, that can speak to the

00:50:49.660 --> 00:50:50.600
 mental health situation.

00:50:50.600 --> 00:50:55.580
 We can bring in some, some people that can maybe provide ways that, that can strengthen

00:50:55.580 --> 00:50:59.720
 us, that can be the armor of God for us in the metaverse and in digital space.

00:50:59.800 --> 00:51:02.440
 I have no idea what the metaverse version of the armor of God is.

00:51:02.560 --> 00:51:06.780
 We're going to get it figured out and we're going to start to prepare people for that.

00:51:07.080 --> 00:51:12.780
 Um, but, but at the end of this, once we go in, um, I, I believe this, I believe we should

00:51:12.780 --> 00:51:13.780
 not worry about tomorrow.

00:51:14.180 --> 00:51:15.840
 Tomorrow worry about itself right now.

00:51:15.840 --> 00:51:19.020
 We've got enough trouble of our own for today.

00:51:19.020 --> 00:51:24.100
 And so in that, we're going to trust God, uh, and, and run with abandon, at least run with

00:51:24.100 --> 00:51:26.400
 the people that are trusting God and running with abandon.

00:51:26.740 --> 00:51:31.540
 Hey, Jeff, if I can, if I can see one more thing here, it's more of an encouragement and

00:51:31.540 --> 00:51:34.860
 also maybe a little bit of a slight warning for all of us as we're heading into this.

00:51:34.860 --> 00:51:36.600
 I think this would be, I would love it.

00:51:36.740 --> 00:51:36.940
 Okay.

00:51:37.000 --> 00:51:40.680
 Cause as, as our parents send us off into the world, they give us good counsel and good

00:51:40.680 --> 00:51:42.280
 warnings because they've lived life for a bit.

00:51:42.380 --> 00:51:42.740
 Okay.

00:51:43.300 --> 00:51:44.720
 So I want to share this all with you.

00:51:45.380 --> 00:51:50.020
 I encourage you, if you watch this right now, do some studies on social media, the way this

00:51:50.020 --> 00:51:51.020
 has all been designed.

00:51:51.260 --> 00:51:53.020
 By the way, I believe everything's created by God.

00:51:53.080 --> 00:51:53.600
 It's amazing.

00:51:53.960 --> 00:51:55.340
 The enemy can twist, right?

00:51:56.140 --> 00:52:02.300
 With casinos, gambling machines and all that stuff, technology with a lot of the social

00:52:02.300 --> 00:52:06.560
 media apps and all that stuff are very much have been designed and constructed similarly

00:52:06.560 --> 00:52:09.480
 to casinos in the way slot machines work.

00:52:10.000 --> 00:52:12.640
 Okay, with the bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, with the lights and the brights

00:52:12.640 --> 00:52:14.300
 and the notifications and the this, that.

00:52:14.620 --> 00:52:18.480
 Do a little bit of, I encourage you to study that a little bit, where you walk into a casino,

00:52:18.580 --> 00:52:19.580
 usually the house wins.

00:52:19.760 --> 00:52:20.500
 Well, here's the deal.

00:52:20.980 --> 00:52:22.840
 The way the social media is, they don't want your money.

00:52:22.840 --> 00:52:26.900
 Well, maybe they do a little bit, some of these companies, but they want your time, okay?

00:52:27.020 --> 00:52:28.340
 And they want your thought life.

00:52:28.520 --> 00:52:30.320
 They want to get in your head, okay?

00:52:30.840 --> 00:52:33.900
 So as we're thinking about this, we're up against the slots machines.

00:52:34.660 --> 00:52:36.620
 And I may be a little bit joking, but I'm not.

00:52:36.660 --> 00:52:37.640
 This is actually very serious.

00:52:37.760 --> 00:52:41.060
 We're up against slot machines where the house wins regularly, okay?

00:52:41.320 --> 00:52:43.040
 We are in the house of the Lord.

00:52:43.280 --> 00:52:44.540
 We have the Holy Spirit.

00:52:44.740 --> 00:52:45.600
 We have one another.

00:52:45.700 --> 00:52:47.840
 We can overcome this stuff, okay?

00:52:47.840 --> 00:52:51.760
 But if you don't have those relationships with the Lord, building and growing and getting

00:52:51.760 --> 00:52:56.780
 strong and with one another in healthy attachment, the house will win because it's too addictive,

00:52:56.940 --> 00:52:57.960
 guys, okay?

00:52:58.020 --> 00:53:00.100
 We're up against some high stakes poker here.

00:53:00.660 --> 00:53:02.020
 Pardon the pun, but we really are.

00:53:02.540 --> 00:53:04.540
 And the enemy wants to keep us out of here.

00:53:04.600 --> 00:53:05.920
 Do not come here, okay?

00:53:05.960 --> 00:53:10.320
 And if we go into his territory, he could come back towards us with some stuff.

00:53:10.380 --> 00:53:11.540
 So we got to be ready for that.

00:53:11.920 --> 00:53:12.960
 We really got to be ready.

00:53:13.060 --> 00:53:16.680
 We're not going to send you off into battle without forewarned is forearmed.

00:53:17.100 --> 00:53:20.640
 So do a study on slot machines, casinos, and social media.

00:53:20.820 --> 00:53:21.740
 I encourage you to Google that.

00:53:21.920 --> 00:53:24.220
 Look at it and just be like, huh, interesting.

00:53:24.320 --> 00:53:25.480
 What's my strategy going to be?

00:53:25.760 --> 00:53:30.400
 Because a part of my heart, ladies and gentlemen, is to expose the plans of the enemy so that

00:53:30.400 --> 00:53:32.120
 we are forewarned, okay?

00:53:32.160 --> 00:53:36.040
 So we know we're not taken off guard because he's a roaring lion looking to devour.

00:53:36.380 --> 00:53:37.240
 We don't want that.

00:53:37.300 --> 00:53:39.720
 We don't want anybody devoured in the fam, DCN family.

00:53:39.900 --> 00:53:41.200
 None of that, okay?

00:53:41.260 --> 00:53:42.440
 And here's my encouragement, Jeff.

00:53:42.740 --> 00:53:43.960
 We're going to get through this.

00:53:44.300 --> 00:53:47.280
 We're going to do it together with glad faces, with joy and peace.

00:53:47.460 --> 00:53:48.480
 We're going to make a difference.

00:53:48.580 --> 00:53:52.040
 We're going to reach the most people that have ever been reached upon earth because they

00:53:52.040 --> 00:53:55.660
 have a watch or they have a machine where we can reach the gospel that has never

00:53:55.660 --> 00:53:56.360
 been done before.

00:53:56.600 --> 00:54:00.860
 We're about to step into the greatest time of the Great Commission ever in history.

00:54:01.340 --> 00:54:02.020
 So be excited.

00:54:02.140 --> 00:54:02.740
 Be encouraged.

00:54:03.380 --> 00:54:04.640
 Love, love that.

00:54:05.380 --> 00:54:06.240
 I'll be honest.

00:54:06.320 --> 00:54:11.100
 I didn't see casinos and gambling and slot machines coming into the conversation today.

00:54:11.260 --> 00:54:14.620
 So if anybody had that on their bingo card, congratulations, you won.

00:54:15.100 --> 00:54:16.120
 I did not.

00:54:17.240 --> 00:54:19.800
 So very, very cool.

00:54:21.740 --> 00:54:23.820
 We'll ask offline, but where did you get that?

00:54:24.080 --> 00:54:27.160
 I just never, never occurred to me to go in that direction.

00:54:27.160 --> 00:54:28.620
 But hey, listen, that-

00:54:28.620 --> 00:54:30.800
 A couple of years ago, I've heard about with Facebook and stuff.

00:54:30.860 --> 00:54:34.960
 They actually asked the casino, they got consulted and they asked how to do that.

00:54:35.060 --> 00:54:36.820
 So anyway, there's a story behind it.

00:54:36.980 --> 00:54:38.580
 But I'll turn it back to you, brother.

00:54:38.700 --> 00:54:40.940
 We'll move on from the casinos from here.

00:54:41.120 --> 00:54:41.240
 Yeah.

00:54:41.480 --> 00:54:44.020
 Well, maybe we need to do an episode on that.

00:54:44.080 --> 00:54:45.320
 How to turn our digital churches.

00:54:45.460 --> 00:54:47.400
 What can the digital church learn from a casino?

00:54:47.400 --> 00:54:53.320
 No, right now, somebody somewhere shooting me an angry glare right as we're talking.

00:54:54.680 --> 00:54:55.400
 So cool.

00:54:55.660 --> 00:54:56.780
 We're not going to do that.

00:54:56.880 --> 00:54:58.860
 But we did talk about cyber sex in this episode.

00:54:58.980 --> 00:54:59.440
 So come on.

00:54:59.500 --> 00:55:00.780
 It's like no holds barred.

00:55:01.120 --> 00:55:02.540
 It's just anything goes right now.

00:55:02.940 --> 00:55:07.600
 So I hope you enjoyed the very special episode here of the Church Digital Podcast, where we

00:55:07.600 --> 00:55:09.920
 touched on some sensitive subjects.

00:55:09.920 --> 00:55:15.280
 We'll get back to the more joyous stuff in the weeks to come and definitely excited about

00:55:15.280 --> 00:55:16.500
 the conversations ahead.

00:55:16.800 --> 00:55:18.120
 This mental health stuff is serious.

00:55:18.780 --> 00:55:26.800
 And rather than saying that it can't be helped, we are aggressively trying to find people that

00:55:26.800 --> 00:55:32.800
 can help us develop answers to that and can protect our planters and protect our pastors

00:55:32.800 --> 00:55:34.640
 who are in this space.

00:55:35.560 --> 00:55:39.860
 And so that is the heart of what we are doing and where we want to go.

00:55:39.940 --> 00:55:43.460
 And so thank you for being on that journey with us.

00:55:43.500 --> 00:55:44.460
 But hey, we're going to land the plane.

00:55:44.540 --> 00:55:45.180
 This has been beautiful.

00:55:45.640 --> 00:55:48.600
 Chris, as we're wrapping up today, anything else you want to add?

00:55:49.060 --> 00:55:49.580
 No, man.

00:55:49.600 --> 00:55:50.200
 I love you, brother.

00:55:50.340 --> 00:55:52.300
 I'm honored to be walking with you as a friend in this.

00:55:52.420 --> 00:55:53.380
 And let's keep going.

00:55:53.540 --> 00:55:54.060
 Let's do it.

00:55:54.340 --> 00:55:54.660
 Definitely.

00:55:55.220 --> 00:55:58.380
 Check out Hesed Discipleship.

00:55:58.740 --> 00:55:59.460
 No, it's not.

00:55:59.460 --> 00:56:02.620
 Hesed DiscipleshipNetwork.com.

00:56:02.680 --> 00:56:03.440
 H-E-S-E-D.

00:56:04.200 --> 00:56:05.580
 We'll put the link in the show notes.

00:56:05.760 --> 00:56:07.340
 You can definitely head over there.

00:56:07.420 --> 00:56:14.240
 Chris is doing some phenomenal stuff towards really helping teams find joy, churches, staffs,

00:56:14.260 --> 00:56:15.860
 individuals find that joy.

00:56:16.000 --> 00:56:18.720
 And so jump in a cohort and work with him.

00:56:18.840 --> 00:56:26.380
 And you're going to see his fingers all over DCN in the coming months and years as we start

00:56:26.380 --> 00:56:29.300
 to really try to create that culture.

00:56:29.600 --> 00:56:31.520
 That culture may take a little longer than three months.

00:56:31.520 --> 00:56:36.780
 Maybe he can pull it in three months, but we'll certainly see where we get with that.

00:56:36.840 --> 00:56:38.040
 But definitely excited, Chris.

00:56:38.100 --> 00:56:39.420
 Thank you for being on the journey with us.

00:56:39.760 --> 00:56:40.580
 We're going to land the plane.

00:56:40.860 --> 00:56:46.140
 So for Chris, for Jeff, this has been the Church Digital Podcast.

00:56:46.380 --> 00:56:47.300
 Thanks for jumping on the show.

00:56:47.940 --> 00:56:49.200
 We'll see you at the next episode.

00:56:49.320 --> 00:56:49.880
 Y'all have a good day.

00:56:50.300 --> 00:56:50.420
 Bye.