WEBVTT

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 People want to have conversations and they want to be known and to ask,

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 oh, so Jesus did that? Well, that's great. I didn't know that about it.

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 Or that's really weird that Jesus did it.

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 So we're trying to create that kind of a dialogical environment

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 where people can say, I don't believe that.

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 And we can say, you know, I wrestle with not believing that sometimes too,

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 but here's the way I think about it. So I was creating that.

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 But I think your question is so spot on about

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 we have to have our ecclesiology straight going into this.

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 Welcome to the Church Digital Podcast.

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 Through this podcast, we'll talk about the technological innovations within the church.

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 But more than tech for tech itself, we'll address deeper questions.

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 Is disciple making possible digitally?

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 How should we approach the digital mission field?

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 Can a biblically grounded church operate in digital space?

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 Oh, and where does the metaverse fit into all this?

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 Whether you're a big or small church, an established church or a startup church plant,

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 the Church Digital's goal is to help churches like yours learn to be a multiplying church,

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 digitally and physically.

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 Our heart?

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 That churches like yours will discover a newfound focus on disciple making

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 that will revolutionize your church.

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 And now, here's your host, Jeff Reed.

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 All right, hey, welcome to the Church Digital Podcast.

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 This is Jeff.

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 And man, I'm glad y'all are here.

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 We're going to have a really fun conversation.

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 I can't wait to see where this one goes today.

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 But hey, before we get started, we may talk a little bit about metaverse.

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 Not too much, maybe on this show.

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 But I just want to remind y'all, with metaverse, so I'm doing a live show over on Leadership

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 Network.

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 And it's called Metaverse Church Next.

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 We're really digging into a lot of the innovators, a lot of the innovations that are surrounding

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 the idea of metaverse church.

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 Now, we've been talking a lot about virtual reality, but I'm starting to turn the corner

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 here, dipping into blockchain, crypto, DAOs.

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 Really intrigued on DAOs right now.

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 That's another conversation for that other show, Metaverse Church Next.

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 And so you can check that out.

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 Actually, you can go to metaversechurchnext.com.

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 That'll redirect you to Leadership Network's website, get you connected, see the schedule,

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 see some blogs that I and some of the other guests have written on there.

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 But check that out, Metaverse Church Next for more information.

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 As a matter of fact, today's guest, Michael Beck, is going to be joining me in July, I

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 think, talking about is Metaverse Church Living Room Church, right?

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 Is that what it's called?

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 Correct, yes, sir.

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 Awesome.

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 And so I was introduced to Michael Beck here talking about Living Room Church, and I'd

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 actually seen the church hadn't gone in.

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 And we had a mutual friend through Leadership Network that connected us and then jumped on a

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 Zoom call and realized that he was like my soulmate from another life or something.

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 And suddenly we found ourselves, you ever have those moments where you're speaking the

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 same words and just the heartstrings are lining up?

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 And it's like, oh my gosh, Michael Beck is my type of person right here.

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 And so I cannot wait to have this conversation just to dig in a little more and start to explore

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 some of these similarities.

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 So, hey, Michael, just even as we're opening up here, getting started, why don't you introduce

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 yourself, set up a little bit, tell the audience maybe a little bit about what you do?

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 Sure.

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 So my name is Michael Beck.

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 I'm a United Methodist clergy person, ordained elder.

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 My wife and I are co-pastors of inherited congregations, you know, older traditional congregations.

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 But then alongside those, we kind of live in this blended ecology where we create these little

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 missional communities, fresh expressions of church, contextual forms of church for people

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 outside the church.

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 So in the physical realm, or I don't really like the whole physical digital dichotomy,

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 but I like to say on-site online, because when you're online, you're still a physical embodied

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 person, just saying.

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 But so we have those in tattoo parlors and Tex-Mex restaurants and dog parks and kind of

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 all over the place.

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 Then we have a bunch of those digitally that are fully online communities, like the Living

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 Room Church Facebook group, which is about 1,500 members now.

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 And then we have, you know, Yoga Church, which is digital.

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 And then we have Church in the Metaverse Church in VR, so Living Room Church VR, which we put

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 on our headsets, we go into all space, and we worship Jesus, and we have sermonic conversations

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 and pray, and the Holy Spirit is there and moving and transforming lives.

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 And then my day job, I'm a professor at a couple seminaries, and I work for my denomination

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 doing contextual church planting across our kind of our global connection.

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 I didn't realize the seminaries.

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 That was, that's a surprise to me.

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 What, do you teach digital in seminaries?

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 Mostly, yeah.

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 My main gig is at United Theological Seminary.

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 I'm the director of the Fresh Expressions House of Studies there.

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 And so we're trying to, as a seminary, prepare leaders for the world as it currently exists,

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 you know, not the world that used to be.

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 And so part of that is some of what we're going to be talking about today, digital church

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 and missional ecclesiology.

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 Most of my teaching, I go and do these intensives, five days in a classroom.

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 In some ways, you know, we're still stuck a little bit in that old way, but then a lot

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 of online teaching as well and lectures and stuff.

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 I also teach at Northwind Seminary and then Memphis Theological Seminary as well as an adjunct

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 here and there.

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 That's interesting, you know, I mean, we've had, here on the podcast, we've had conversations

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 with some seminary profs and seminarians and students, you know, about some of the lack

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 of digital, and even in your context, the fresh expressions, how really a lot of, the majority

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 of our seminaries don't seem to be educating much into that.

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 And so it's encouraging to me that you're one of those voices out there that's training this

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 next generation and bringing attention to different ways of thinking as we're working through

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 here.

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 So that's really cool, man.

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 Once again, shedding light.

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 I'm looking forward to this conversation.

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 Well, let me give a little preface there that there's still a struggle in the academic world,

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 as you know, Jeff, around digital church.

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 And so I wouldn't say that it's a, it's a, you know, broadly accepted thing in academia.

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 There's still a lot of struggles with it and ivory tower kind of picking it apart before we

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 really experienced it and had to be practitioners of it.

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 So, but we're trying to create some change in, in seminary education, some culture shift

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 in the area of digitality, but it is, it is definitely an uphill climb.

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 So you did attend those meetings.

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 No, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm kidding.

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 So I, well, I'll fly.

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 We could, we could talk through, through some stories.

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 And I, I just, I've seen, I've seen some of my digital and metaverse friends get beat

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 up, um, by the, uh, the seminarian crowd.

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 Uh, who's, you know, very, you know, you said the words ivory tower.

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 I did not.

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 Uh, but that does, that does describe it.

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 And, uh, and I mean, just to be honest, like there, there was a, there was some shots.

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 I had a kid and I say a kid, I really do.

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 Yeah.

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 He was a kid in twenties.

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 I would consider a kid.

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 I had a kid on my podcast and, uh, he was, was talking about some of the things that were

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 out there and, uh, seminary prof heard the podcast.

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 Uh, first off, thank you seminary prof for listening to the podcast.

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 That kind of surprised, surprised, surprised me.

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 Uh, but, but coming out of it, like the seminary prof starts a war, uh, on Facebook with this

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 20 something year old who's launching a digital church.

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 And like, he's taking shots left and right and, and give credit to the 20 year old for

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 replying humbly and replying in the spirit while the seminarian, I don't, I don't know

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 that are actually given credit to, and I don't want to do a play by play here on the show,

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 but, uh, it was surprising to me, uh, the lack of imagination, uh, that really comes around

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 when, when we're talking with the, these, these seminaries and, and, and literally digital

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 church in, in general, you know, coming out of COVID, coming out of COVID, we saw digital

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 rise up in many ways.

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 Was it perfect?

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 No.

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 Are many churches struggling with the idea?

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 Yeah.

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 But many churches have that false view of what digital is or what digital could be.

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 And it's, and it's fascinating, um, you know, even where we are 2022 now, summer coming in

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 and trying to, to analyze the people that are doing digital churches that are doing fresh

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 expressions, how even after COVID, even after the model broke, we're still needing to, to

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 fight for, for validation, for recognition, for, for credibility, uh, oftentimes.

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 So, um, you know, I know you've been one of these guys that's been in the, in the rough

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 for a while you've written, you told me nine books roughly centered around this topic or around

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 digital and fresh expressions.

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 Is that all nine are on that topic?

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 Uh, well, they're around fresh expressions, missional ecclesiology, uh, the digital more

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 the fresh expressions in a digital age was the book that I really started to dive in this and

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 try to provide a more robust kind of, um, ecclesiology theology for digitality and what

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 community can look like in that space.

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 Yeah.

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 Love it.

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 Which really gets us to the heart of this because if, if churches and seminaries, I don't want to,

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 I'm going to be done picking on the seminaries, but you know, if they're lacking imagination,

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 I mean, really what we have the opportunity to here in 2022 is to embrace our imagination.

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 And, and, you know, I've, I've started using, utilizing the phrase missional imagination and,

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 and, and, and being imaginative and, and using that towards missional purposes.

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 You know, I've, I've heard you use the phrase imagination is your superpower.

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 And, and I would almost love to like start the conversation here.

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 Um, imagination is your superpower.

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 Start to unpack that for us.

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 What, what do you mean with that?

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 Yeah, well, let me, let me ground it in scripture a little bit first.

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 Um, and, and then I'll get into the practical part of it, but you know, God, um, imagines

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 creation, right.

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 And then speaks it into existence with a bang when he says, let there be light and the, the

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 spirit hovers over the, the swirling chaos and brings forth, you know, beauty and order.

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 And so imagination, I believe as, as human beings made in the image of God, we've been, um, instilled

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 with, um, this imagination, um, uh, in the book painting with ashes, where that chapter

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 is imagination is imagination is your superpower.

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 I was kind of talking about in the context of growing up as a, as a orphaned abused child.

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 And in that situation, um, you, you either get your imagination crushed and basically you can't

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 flourish and live when that happens.

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 Or you use your imagination to recreate your reality and you, you start to dream or imagine

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 how things could be differently, uh, could be different in your life.

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 And then you, you kind of put in the action to do those things.

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 So like in the fresh expression movement, we talk about, uh, pioneers are dreamers who do.

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 And that was first used by, um, Gerald R. Buckle in his book, Refounding the Church.

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 Um, but there's this connection, um, between what you can dream and imagine, um, and, and

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 what the Holy Spirit, um, can, can bring into being, not, not that you are bringing it into

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 being, but the Holy Spirit through and in, in community.

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 Um, and so then I, I just looked at, you know, how in, in the church, even in the missional

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 church conversation, right there, we've, we've already gotten into like a study.

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 And, um, um, we've already gotten into like a kind of being dogmatic about it.

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 And there's this beautiful idea about the Missio Dei that, that we don't have a mission.

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 God has a mission and we get drawn into that mission.

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 And, um, the Holy Spirit is, is drawing the world into, into the life of God.

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 And so, um, that means it's, we're not the primary actors, God is.

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 And so our, our, our, our key ability is to be able to discern what the Holy Spirit's doing

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 and join into what the Holy Spirit's doing, not making something happen, our own activity

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 or action, but watching for what God is doing and getting into that.

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 And so to get dogmatic about Missio Dei and all of that, and, uh, new forms of church,

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 even I've seen this happen really fast where all of a sudden we got like all this dogma

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 around what a new Christian community is and what a fresh expression of church is and what

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 it has to look like.

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 And in some ways it kind of diminishes, uh, what it could be the imagination.

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 So for instance, people that are really big about, you know, third place ministry,

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 having church in a tattoo parlor or a dog park, they're like, yes, Christian koinonia going on.

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 Yes.

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 Then we say, well, what if the digital place is a third place?

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 And they go, oh no, no, no.

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 You can't have Christian community in a digital environment.

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 That's impossible.

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 Right.

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 And our imagination just like withers all of a sudden around the digitality conversation.

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 I'm like, well, no, cause, um, the digital space is its own built environment.

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 Just like we go into a tattoo parlor or a sanctuary or, or, you know, just a normal fellowship hall.

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 Let's keep it in like normal church world.

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 Kind of, um, that's a built environment where people come together and they worship Jesus and

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 they interact.

00:14:05.480 --> 00:14:12.040
 Well, the digital space is its own kind of built environment, um, where, where we're inhabiting

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 a space together in our bodies.

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 We're just connected through distance contact, um, which is not a new technology.

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 I mean, it goes back to the telegraph really, but we're being enabled through space and time

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 to be in a room together in a physical way that's enabled by this digital environment.

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 So our, our missional imagination kind of collapses when we start to think about that and go, oh,

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 I don't know, koinonia and depth of relationship, but just to give you a real practical example.

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 So somebody who's in the Alcoholics Anonymous community, me in recovery, um, throughout the

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 pandemic, we couldn't have meetings, right?

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 And these meetings are foundational, fundamental to our ongoing recovery.

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 Now I don't necessarily go to meetings because I'm thinking about getting drunk or high.

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 I go to meetings because of the community and to help others and all those things.

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 We couldn't do that during the pandemic.

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 So we had to work with zoom rooms and create community in that way.

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 And guess what?

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 It worked just like if we're sitting in a, in a church basement or a clubhouse somewhere,

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 we were building relationship.

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 We were growing spiritually.

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 We were helping sustain each other through the challenges.

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 So if that's not koinonia, if that's not community and, and represent, uh, you know, uh, reciprocal

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 relationship there, I don't, I don't know what that, what else you would call that.

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 So as you described, you know, kind of collapsing back into, oh, we had to do digital for a while

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 because of pandemic, but now, oh, let's get back to the real thing.

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 I just think that diminishes the beautiful thing.

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 The Holy spirit was like leading us into this new space, this new frontier to be church in

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 new ways.

00:15:50.920 --> 00:15:54.820
 And we've kind of said, well, that was good, but now let's get back to, you know, what

00:15:54.820 --> 00:15:55.600
 we've always done.

00:15:55.880 --> 00:15:55.980
 Yeah.

00:15:56.040 --> 00:16:02.400
 I mean, the way that you're, you're describing this is that this, the imagination, um, it's,

00:16:02.400 --> 00:16:04.360
 it's, it's not from us.

00:16:04.360 --> 00:16:08.440
 Like the picture you're painting is the imagination comes from the Holy spirit.

00:16:08.440 --> 00:16:13.420
 The Holy spirit was, is leading us to something different.

00:16:13.540 --> 00:16:19.660
 Can, can you just maybe give me some background or some grounding in, in that piece where, where

00:16:19.660 --> 00:16:25.820
 the Holy spirit is, is leading us into these fresh expressions, into this new ideas, into

00:16:25.820 --> 00:16:26.500
 this new realm.

00:16:26.960 --> 00:16:27.120
 Yeah.

00:16:27.240 --> 00:16:33.680
 And there's this really, um, underutilized, um, St. Ignatius of Loyola developed, uh, the

00:16:33.680 --> 00:16:37.600
 imaginative prayer practice, praying with the imagination.

00:16:38.060 --> 00:16:43.680
 Um, and, uh, there's a, there's a kind of meditation where it's like stillness and we're

00:16:43.680 --> 00:16:49.080
 just trying to cease the hamster wheel and like, just be, you know, still and quiet.

00:16:49.240 --> 00:16:51.560
 And that's a very biblical way to pray and meditate.

00:16:51.860 --> 00:16:56.400
 But then there's this whole other idea where it's like you, through your imagination, you

00:16:56.400 --> 00:17:00.840
 take all of your mental faculties into the prayer task.

00:17:00.840 --> 00:17:07.240
 And you like, um, a good way to start as you take a biblical story or text and you imagine

00:17:07.240 --> 00:17:12.000
 yourself in the text and what is Jesus doing and saying, and these little things come out

00:17:12.000 --> 00:17:13.260
 that maybe you wouldn't have seen.

00:17:13.400 --> 00:17:19.020
 And then as you get more into the practice, I think, I think that the Holy Spirit's communicating

00:17:19.020 --> 00:17:25.580
 directly to our imagination through images, through kind of scenes or whatever you want

00:17:25.580 --> 00:17:26.120
 to call it.

00:17:26.540 --> 00:17:31.260
 Um, and I believe that's the inspiration of the Holy Spirit working on our mind and our

00:17:31.260 --> 00:17:33.780
 heart and our soul to show us new possibilities.

00:17:34.300 --> 00:17:39.320
 I think throughout the book of Acts, it's very clear that that was a gift that God gave like

00:17:39.320 --> 00:17:44.440
 dreams, visions, Peter and Cornelius, Paul and the Macedonian man.

00:17:45.080 --> 00:17:49.760
 But it's something in, in our kind of enlightenment Western version of Christianity, we've like shut

00:17:49.760 --> 00:17:51.120
 the door to those kinds of things.

00:17:52.240 --> 00:17:58.040
 So I think when, when you're, when you're working from that, that lane, like the Holy Spirit can

00:17:58.040 --> 00:18:03.280
 speak to our imagination and our dreams and, and show us things, then that opens up all these

00:18:03.280 --> 00:18:04.020
 new possibilities.

00:18:04.020 --> 00:18:06.440
 We get our self limitations out of the way.

00:18:06.680 --> 00:18:12.500
 And then we, we start to look for that imagination leads us to look into the community.

00:18:12.860 --> 00:18:14.780
 What is God already doing?

00:18:15.080 --> 00:18:21.640
 And it changes the focus of what do I need to come in the situation and do to what is God

00:18:21.640 --> 00:18:23.560
 doing here that I can join into?

00:18:25.980 --> 00:18:30.800
 So like when I'm going into living room church VR and we're, we got our headsets on and our

00:18:30.800 --> 00:18:33.260
 avatars and we're worshiping, we're having our sermonic conversations.

00:18:33.280 --> 00:18:36.440
 I'm really listening to what people are saying.

00:18:36.440 --> 00:18:41.200
 And, and, and I'm, you know, just trying to be conscious of how is the Holy Spirit movement

00:18:41.200 --> 00:18:42.160
 in this community.

00:18:42.580 --> 00:18:49.100
 And if, if, if Jesus is Lord of like all nations, all societies, all people, all the universe,

00:18:49.100 --> 00:18:51.640
 isn't Jesus Lord of the metaverse too?

00:18:53.040 --> 00:18:58.760
 Is Jesus limited to be at work and moving in this community right here in this space with

00:18:58.760 --> 00:19:01.660
 real people that are bringing real needs and real situations.

00:19:02.240 --> 00:19:06.900
 And so then I'm, I'm just thinking, what is, what is God prompting me to say or do in this

00:19:06.900 --> 00:19:07.440
 situation?

00:19:07.440 --> 00:19:13.860
 So that, that's what I mean by looking at imagination in that way, that it's a gift from God.

00:19:13.980 --> 00:19:15.380
 It's something we can access.

00:19:15.940 --> 00:19:25.660
 If, if, if Mark Zuckerberg was capable of creating something that would keep God out, we're in

00:19:25.660 --> 00:19:26.840
 serious trouble.

00:19:26.840 --> 00:19:32.700
 Like, like if Zuckerberg, if Facebook, if meta really is capable of creating a device

00:19:32.700 --> 00:19:40.680
 that prevents God from entering in, um, we are, are like the end of the world just happened.

00:19:41.100 --> 00:19:44.120
 Uh, or our, maybe our faith is just a little too small.

00:19:44.200 --> 00:19:48.020
 I'm, I'm, I'm not sure, but we can, we can maybe offline that conversation.

00:19:48.020 --> 00:19:49.280
 Yeah, uh, totally.

00:19:49.560 --> 00:19:53.720
 So it's like, what are you, are you kidding me?

00:19:53.720 --> 00:19:56.740
 Man created something that could kick God out like that.

00:19:56.860 --> 00:19:58.600
 That did not play well in the garden.

00:19:58.800 --> 00:20:02.740
 I just, uh, anyway, but there, there's some biblical context that maybe we can go back

00:20:02.740 --> 00:20:08.540
 into, um, you know, and it's, it's the other biblical line I, I throw a lot these days is,

00:20:08.660 --> 00:20:13.820
 Hey, listen, like, you know, a lot of people, Jonah did not want to go to Nineveh.

00:20:14.560 --> 00:20:18.620
 God got Nineveh, got him to Nineveh at some point, you know, the hard way maybe.

00:20:19.020 --> 00:20:22.900
 But, uh, in, in many ways, a lot of these churches that, that are, that are fighting

00:20:22.900 --> 00:20:24.440
 against this mission field.

00:20:24.940 --> 00:20:27.620
 Well, you know, maybe, maybe God will get you there one way or another.

00:20:27.620 --> 00:20:29.940
 We'll have to see how, how time plays out.

00:20:30.440 --> 00:20:31.640
 Hey, but let me ask this.

00:20:31.700 --> 00:20:35.200
 Like, so with, you're doing these fresh expressions, you've got, you've got these

00:20:35.200 --> 00:20:40.400
 people that, that are, um, that are imaginative, um, where, where some things are happening

00:20:40.400 --> 00:20:44.480
 and you're seeing this in like, nevermind some of the like digital and metaverse.

00:20:44.560 --> 00:20:47.540
 I don't even think is the most controversial thing that we've said in this podcast.

00:20:48.280 --> 00:20:49.060
 Tattoo parlors?

00:20:49.720 --> 00:20:55.300
 Like, is, is there, um, so when you're looking at a fresh expression, I'm just curious.

00:20:55.300 --> 00:20:58.440
 Like, is there, that's, that's too far gone.

00:20:58.760 --> 00:21:00.500
 Let that's, that's okay.

00:21:00.700 --> 00:21:05.080
 Like, how do you measure, uh, the ecclesiology, the functions?

00:21:05.080 --> 00:21:07.160
 Like, I'll just, I'll, I'll put it in my context.

00:21:07.600 --> 00:21:10.140
 Uh, in DJ, we've talked about this on the show.

00:21:10.200 --> 00:21:16.200
 DJ Soto right now is doing, um, he's experimenting with church in, uh, in Grand Theft Auto.

00:21:16.800 --> 00:21:19.120
 You know, it's like, Hey, I'm, I'm going to go kill the pimp.

00:21:19.160 --> 00:21:20.060
 I'm going to steal this car.

00:21:20.140 --> 00:21:21.560
 And now it's time to go to church.

00:21:22.060 --> 00:21:24.320
 And like, I don't know if that's too far gone.

00:21:24.580 --> 00:21:28.160
 I, I, uh, you know, like I really, that I've never questioned anything.

00:21:28.160 --> 00:21:32.640
 This is the one example that I'm like, um, you know, maybe, maybe we actually want to

00:21:32.640 --> 00:21:34.820
 like, look at this experiment, see, see what's happening.

00:21:35.580 --> 00:21:39.660
 Um, you know, tattoo parlor is one of those areas that I'm not calling it an unsacred

00:21:39.660 --> 00:21:44.160
 spot, but it just never resonated for me to be like, Oh, let's do church there.

00:21:44.360 --> 00:21:49.180
 But I know people that do churches and bars and are incredibly successful cigar bars, alcohol

00:21:49.180 --> 00:21:50.240
 bars, different places.

00:21:50.240 --> 00:21:52.180
 And, and they're, they're resonating.

00:21:52.180 --> 00:21:58.140
 So like, how do you walk that line of, Hey, here's a new idea.

00:21:58.160 --> 00:22:00.680
 Um, is this of God?

00:22:00.780 --> 00:22:01.720
 Is this a man?

00:22:01.880 --> 00:22:05.600
 Is this, does this line up to something biblically we can do?

00:22:05.700 --> 00:22:07.440
 Like you're living in this world.

00:22:07.560 --> 00:22:10.040
 How do you, uh, balance that tension?

00:22:10.340 --> 00:22:11.460
 Yeah, that's a great question.

00:22:11.660 --> 00:22:18.200
 The, um, you know, when I have, and, and by the way, let me preface this and say the heroes

00:22:18.200 --> 00:22:20.020
 of my story are lay people.

00:22:20.880 --> 00:22:27.960
 So these are non-ordained, non-pastor people who are planting churches in tattoo parlors and

00:22:27.960 --> 00:22:31.000
 Tex-Mex restaurants and the VR church is a team of lay people.

00:22:31.540 --> 00:22:39.180
 So my primary role is like cheerleader, encourager, um, facilitator, uh, encourager.

00:22:39.440 --> 00:22:42.560
 I like to grow fruit on other people's trees.

00:22:42.760 --> 00:22:46.360
 That's the way I see it rather than growing fruit on my tree.

00:22:46.360 --> 00:22:50.340
 How do I, um, help nurture the fruit in the trees of others?

00:22:50.500 --> 00:22:55.140
 So, um, when somebody comes to me, is it a good idea or a God idea?

00:22:55.640 --> 00:23:00.800
 I have this kind of evaluative framework and one I'll, I'll, I'll ask, do they have a team?

00:23:01.380 --> 00:23:03.380
 Cause Jesus never sends us alone.

00:23:03.480 --> 00:23:05.300
 It's always at least two by two.

00:23:05.720 --> 00:23:09.620
 So if they have a great idea and they don't have a team, I'd say, let's, let's work on

00:23:09.620 --> 00:23:09.940
 that part.

00:23:10.000 --> 00:23:10.880
 Let's get a team together.

00:23:11.600 --> 00:23:13.300
 Do they have a person of peace?

00:23:14.040 --> 00:23:16.640
 So Luke 10, find the person of peace.

00:23:16.740 --> 00:23:21.040
 The welcomer opens the network, opens the door, opens the third place to you.

00:23:21.920 --> 00:23:25.660
 So if they just have a real cool idea, I want to go do something in a tattoo parlor.

00:23:25.760 --> 00:23:26.680
 I'd be like, really?

00:23:26.780 --> 00:23:29.400
 Do you know anybody in tattoo parlor church culture?

00:23:29.640 --> 00:23:31.760
 Do you know the artist or the owner or whatever?

00:23:32.340 --> 00:23:36.380
 So in the case of tattoo parlor church, we had an owner and this is a 10 year old fresh

00:23:36.380 --> 00:23:36.820
 expression.

00:23:36.820 --> 00:23:38.640
 So it's, it's not all that new.

00:23:38.740 --> 00:23:40.940
 And by the way, I thought this was like a new thing.

00:23:40.940 --> 00:23:46.080
 And then I found about, uh, Razuk's tattoo shop in the old city of Jerusalem.

00:23:47.000 --> 00:23:54.300
 And, um, they've been tattooing Christian pilgrims for some sick four or 500 years amount of time

00:23:54.300 --> 00:23:56.920
 where they pass it down generation, generationally.

00:23:57.020 --> 00:24:03.500
 And they do Christian, uh, like this Jerusalem cross I got on my finger at, at Razuk's, uh,

00:24:03.520 --> 00:24:04.000
 in Jerusalem.

00:24:04.000 --> 00:24:06.720
 So I was like, Oh, nothing's new under the sun.

00:24:06.800 --> 00:24:12.800
 They had tattoo parlor church 400 years ago, but then, um, and then I'll say, and then do

00:24:12.800 --> 00:24:15.700
 I have the relational credibility with this person?

00:24:16.220 --> 00:24:21.980
 So if things start to go a little off course or, or, uh, we need to like bring things back.

00:24:22.040 --> 00:24:27.480
 Do I, did I have, um, um, I don't want to like to use the word authority, but a relational

00:24:27.480 --> 00:24:32.940
 credibility to like bring it back to Jesus kind of, or, or get us back on course.

00:24:33.200 --> 00:24:36.940
 So if I can say yes to all those things, I'll say, this is a, this is a God idea.

00:24:36.980 --> 00:24:39.320
 Let's experiment with it and see where it goes.

00:24:39.560 --> 00:24:41.880
 It's not a, we, a lot of things fail.

00:24:41.880 --> 00:24:43.820
 So we try to create a failure culture.

00:24:44.440 --> 00:24:46.400
 Um, it's not, it's not good or bad.

00:24:46.400 --> 00:24:49.220
 It's just, it's never, um, you know, right or wrong.

00:24:49.260 --> 00:24:50.640
 It's just, what did we learn out of it?

00:24:50.660 --> 00:24:52.960
 And let's try the next thing that God might be leading us to.

00:24:53.580 --> 00:24:55.580
 So there are some people that get hung up.

00:24:55.620 --> 00:24:59.180
 It's probably a good, uh, not a good example to lead with tattoo parlor.

00:24:59.180 --> 00:25:03.360
 Cause that's going to be on the edge of some people's imagination for where the church can

00:25:03.360 --> 00:25:03.700
 happen.

00:25:03.700 --> 00:25:08.060
 But I do want to say that the really cool thing about tattoo parlor church, so we're

00:25:08.060 --> 00:25:13.760
 sitting around in a circle and a coffee table and a tattoo parlor, and we're doing baptisms

00:25:13.760 --> 00:25:14.200
 in there.

00:25:14.260 --> 00:25:16.660
 We're, we're having the Lord's supper in their communion.

00:25:16.980 --> 00:25:18.320
 Uh, we're worshiping Jesus.

00:25:18.320 --> 00:25:19.540
 We're studying scripture.

00:25:20.300 --> 00:25:24.480
 People are going back, getting tattoos while they're doing that, but they're getting faith

00:25:24.480 --> 00:25:25.640
 based symbols.

00:25:26.340 --> 00:25:32.740
 So scriptures, uh, you know, different, uh, meaningful symbols, iconography in the Christian

00:25:32.740 --> 00:25:33.200
 tradition.

00:25:34.140 --> 00:25:37.740
 And then while there's other people who are coming in, they're just getting their piercings

00:25:37.740 --> 00:25:39.900
 or they're waiting to go back for their tattoo or whatever.

00:25:39.900 --> 00:25:43.580
 Now they find themselves in a conversation with a bunch of people talking about Jesus and

00:25:43.580 --> 00:25:44.800
 then they, they jump in.

00:25:44.920 --> 00:25:48.120
 And so it's just this really cool thing that the spirit's doing.

00:25:48.400 --> 00:25:52.460
 People get caught up on the, the, the Leviticus, uh, restriction.

00:25:52.840 --> 00:25:58.960
 I think it's, um, 29, maybe, uh, or 1928, somewhere in there, Leviticus.

00:25:59.480 --> 00:26:04.820
 Um, but it's funny if you look at that restriction, it says, do not, uh, tattoo for the dead or

00:26:04.820 --> 00:26:06.240
 gash yourself for the dead.

00:26:06.860 --> 00:26:11.640
 But then if you look before and after it, it says, do not trim the corners of your beard.

00:26:11.640 --> 00:26:14.080
 Do not wear clothing with different kinds of fabric.

00:26:14.220 --> 00:26:16.760
 Do not eat shellfish or anything with the blood in it.

00:26:16.840 --> 00:26:19.900
 Do not eat fruit that doesn't lie fallow for such a period of time.

00:26:20.160 --> 00:26:22.920
 So we look at all those things and we go, yep, did that today.

00:26:23.020 --> 00:26:23.560
 Did that today.

00:26:23.640 --> 00:26:29.400
 Like we'd all be walking around as Hasidic Jews with curly locks, big beards, all of that.

00:26:29.980 --> 00:26:34.640
 Um, but then we look at that one thing and go, Oh, tattoos, evil, bad.

00:26:34.820 --> 00:26:35.140
 Right.

00:26:35.400 --> 00:26:42.560
 So what if using missional imagination is thinking about how can something like tattoo culture

00:26:42.560 --> 00:26:45.060
 bend to point to the truth of Jesus?

00:26:45.500 --> 00:26:51.920
 How can it be a sign and a symbol and an instrument, a foretaste of God's kingdom in the world?

00:26:52.180 --> 00:26:58.200
 How can my tattoos be something that's, uh, an evangelist, uh, evangelism conversation starter,

00:26:58.200 --> 00:27:03.920
 which by the way, if you don't want to get, have conversations about Jesus on airplanes for

00:27:03.920 --> 00:27:09.240
 the rest of your life, don't tattoo Jesus's story up and down your arms like I have, because

00:27:09.240 --> 00:27:13.860
 you're never going to get, you're never going to get a break from talking about Jesus.

00:27:14.080 --> 00:27:15.100
 So be ready for that.

00:27:15.260 --> 00:27:17.960
 But so it's just a different way to think about it.

00:27:18.040 --> 00:27:20.660
 And I wouldn't say everybody's called to go and do that.

00:27:20.720 --> 00:27:26.240
 And we all have our different convictions around scripture and how we interpret that.

00:27:26.880 --> 00:27:31.380
 But the key thing and everything I just said, if you could just hear this, there are people

00:27:31.380 --> 00:27:36.580
 in the tattoo parlor who are going to never hear the gospel and they're going to never

00:27:36.580 --> 00:27:39.100
 come to know the love of Jesus Christ that we know.

00:27:39.760 --> 00:27:45.100
 If we don't go be church with them where they live, they're just not ever going to come

00:27:45.100 --> 00:27:45.820
 to our church.

00:27:46.500 --> 00:27:51.060
 So I think Jesus's approach was we go and we form church with people where they are.

00:27:52.080 --> 00:27:53.320
 And that's why I do it.

00:27:53.440 --> 00:27:55.300
 It's not really about the tattooing or any of that.

00:27:55.420 --> 00:28:00.140
 It's about God opened this door for us and there's people there that are coming to know

00:28:00.140 --> 00:28:00.460
 Jesus.

00:28:01.240 --> 00:28:06.020
 And to me, that's the ultimate kind of a motivation for this.

00:28:06.560 --> 00:28:07.760
 Yeah, I'm intrigued.

00:28:07.940 --> 00:28:08.520
 You're right.

00:28:08.560 --> 00:28:12.480
 We've been living on the edge, I'm sure a little bit here with the tattoo parlor.

00:28:12.480 --> 00:28:15.900
 You mentioned like Facebook group with living room church.

00:28:15.900 --> 00:28:18.840
 You mentioned the virtual reality implementation of that.

00:28:19.440 --> 00:28:23.740
 What are some other fresh, I mentioned bars, you know, several bar churches, cigar bars as

00:28:23.740 --> 00:28:23.920
 well.

00:28:24.200 --> 00:28:29.840
 What are some other maybe unique expressions or ideas when we're looking at like missional

00:28:29.840 --> 00:28:30.300
 imagination?

00:28:30.660 --> 00:28:34.040
 What are some unique cases that are out there that you've worked with?

00:28:34.380 --> 00:28:34.520
 Sure.

00:28:34.680 --> 00:28:39.060
 So, I mean, just in our little network, we have 15 of these around our churches.

00:28:39.380 --> 00:28:42.720
 And let me just share some more normal ones.

00:28:43.080 --> 00:28:43.240
 Okay.

00:28:44.240 --> 00:28:52.880
 So, like my 80-year-old long-term congregant, Larry, who just has been going to church his

00:28:52.880 --> 00:28:53.440
 whole life.

00:28:53.540 --> 00:28:58.420
 He's a faithful servant, bringing his prayers, presence, gifts, service, witness to the church.

00:28:59.060 --> 00:29:00.740
 So, he says, Pastor, I'm boring.

00:29:00.960 --> 00:29:02.180
 I don't do any of this stuff.

00:29:02.280 --> 00:29:06.520
 You know, we got church in the Moe's Southwest Grill, church in the dog park, church in the

00:29:06.520 --> 00:29:10.960
 yoga studio, church in the burrito place and the tattoo parlor.

00:29:11.460 --> 00:29:18.140
 He says, so what I do on Saturdays, I take my dog Rocky to the dog park and I talk with

00:29:18.140 --> 00:29:22.160
 my friends about sports and the weather and whatever, and I have a little community there.

00:29:23.040 --> 00:29:24.200
 And so, we just had a conversation.

00:29:24.340 --> 00:29:28.720
 Well, Larry, what if we started to think of that as it could become a little Christian community

00:29:28.720 --> 00:29:32.040
 with your friends that don't go to church but gather at the dog park?

00:29:32.820 --> 00:29:37.620
 And so, I have two little pugs, Vader and Ferdinand, and he's got this big, like, horse

00:29:37.620 --> 00:29:38.980
 dog, Labradoodle dog.

00:29:39.780 --> 00:29:44.460
 And Larry plants his first church at 80 years old in the dog park.

00:29:45.180 --> 00:29:48.480
 So, he leads the sermonic conversation.

00:29:49.200 --> 00:29:50.760
 He takes it way too serious.

00:29:50.980 --> 00:29:53.000
 He's, like, borrowing my commentaries and stuff.

00:29:53.060 --> 00:29:55.000
 He's like, Pastor, can I say this and say that?

00:29:55.120 --> 00:29:58.580
 I want to—I'm like, Larry, just let it—let the Holy Spirit lead.

00:29:59.140 --> 00:30:02.940
 And so, he'll—you know, humans come in, have a passing of the peace.

00:30:03.040 --> 00:30:08.180
 The dogs come in, have a sniffing of the butts, and we have church right out there in the dog park.

00:30:09.100 --> 00:30:11.760
 And that's just church happening where people do life.

00:30:12.300 --> 00:30:18.560
 My—my—one of my younger folks of our church, her name's Denise, she came to faith in burritos and Bibles.

00:30:18.640 --> 00:30:20.680
 And that's where we gather in a Tex-Mex restaurant.

00:30:20.980 --> 00:30:24.420
 We eat all you can eat, chips and salsa and burritos, and we worship Jesus.

00:30:26.280 --> 00:30:28.080
 She came to faith in that community.

00:30:28.360 --> 00:30:30.520
 And then within—so, she's 30.

00:30:30.800 --> 00:30:32.920
 She's probably mid-30s now.

00:30:32.980 --> 00:30:33.780
 This is a while back.

00:30:34.980 --> 00:30:39.680
 But she—she said—she came to faith, and she's like, well, I like to run.

00:30:39.800 --> 00:30:43.380
 I do these mud runs and 5Ks and marathons and stuff.

00:30:43.680 --> 00:30:47.440
 What if I get my group of friends and we'll get together?

00:30:47.600 --> 00:30:49.180
 We'll have, like, a little prayer time.

00:30:49.860 --> 00:30:52.020
 Sermonic conversation is the language we use.

00:30:52.540 --> 00:30:57.180
 And then we'll go do our run, and then we'll come back, and we'll go back to work and go back to our kids or whatever.

00:30:57.380 --> 00:31:01.380
 So she started Church 3.1, which is a church where they run a 5K.

00:31:01.980 --> 00:31:03.420
 She leads the conversation.

00:31:04.260 --> 00:31:06.740
 And we give our teams, like, some questions.

00:31:07.080 --> 00:31:11.340
 So it's not necessarily a sermon like you would think of it, but we'll take a Jesus story.

00:31:11.880 --> 00:31:16.060
 We'll read a couple verses of a Jesus story or something Jesus taught or said.

00:31:16.660 --> 00:31:22.280
 And then we'll ask a question like, if this Jesus story happened today, what would it look like?

00:31:23.020 --> 00:31:27.040
 So we got Christians, non-Christians, definitely don't want to be Christians.

00:31:27.040 --> 00:31:28.320
 All in this circle, right?

00:31:28.680 --> 00:31:30.960
 And we're just saying, what if this happened today?

00:31:31.020 --> 00:31:31.680
 What would it look like?

00:31:31.760 --> 00:31:33.440
 Everybody can get in on the question.

00:31:33.580 --> 00:31:35.080
 It's not a right or wrong answer.

00:31:35.240 --> 00:31:37.760
 It's just, I think Jesus would do this or it would look like that.

00:31:38.120 --> 00:31:45.780
 So we're really teaching people to have a scriptural imagination, to focus their attention around Jesus and what He would do and say.

00:31:46.400 --> 00:31:48.840
 Then we go run our 5K, and we pray, and we come back.

00:31:49.340 --> 00:31:52.300
 So I think it's just the simpleness of it.

00:31:53.240 --> 00:32:10.940
 I think the key thing of what many young people that I work with that say that the frustrating thing about the church, it's like, oh, I get to serve on a committee or maybe I preach for my pastor here and there as a really good layperson or I lead a group in the church.

00:32:11.160 --> 00:32:16.340
 But they just feel like this disconnect with that in their everyday normal life.

00:32:17.280 --> 00:32:27.720
 And this is a way to say, no, have an imagination for your everyday normal life that anything you do with anybody that you like to do it could actually become church with them where they are.

00:32:28.840 --> 00:32:35.540
 And I just see people getting really fulfilled by that and saying, okay, if this is for being a follower of Jesus, I can do this.

00:32:35.600 --> 00:32:36.080
 I get it.

00:32:36.160 --> 00:32:42.440
 And I'm bringing something to the conversation, and I'm making a difference in my community and my friends' lives.

00:32:42.620 --> 00:32:47.520
 And it just really ups the whole game of being a follower of Jesus, I think.

00:32:47.520 --> 00:32:57.220
 Yeah, I've had hundreds of conversations with people that are wanting to launch a digital church, and the majority of them find me on Google.

00:32:57.360 --> 00:32:58.780
 We've talked about it before.

00:33:00.380 --> 00:33:13.160
 But to the T, almost 100% of them, maybe it's 99, 98, 97%, all they really want is permission, like for somebody to validate the idea.

00:33:13.300 --> 00:33:14.520
 They're going to their pastor.

00:33:14.640 --> 00:33:18.320
 Their pastor doesn't understand the fresh expression or the digital church.

00:33:18.480 --> 00:33:21.780
 The denomination doesn't want anything to do with this.

00:33:21.780 --> 00:33:33.760
 Even like their spouse and their friends, like they're just, it's the idea of the digital church is too far, or metaverse church is too far outside of the box of like normal acceptance.

00:33:34.920 --> 00:33:42.900
 And so, but honestly, it's at this point, when I hear these ideas, like it used to be, hey, that's a great idea.

00:33:43.020 --> 00:33:44.000
 You should do it.

00:33:44.180 --> 00:33:47.320
 And it still is, except now it's, hey, that's a great idea.

00:33:47.400 --> 00:33:49.620
 There's four people who are doing the exact same thing.

00:33:50.100 --> 00:33:50.880
 You want to meet them?

00:33:50.880 --> 00:33:58.460
 And so you can maybe like learn from each other because there's, you know, Ecclesiastes, there's nothing new under the sun at this point.

00:33:58.700 --> 00:34:07.560
 But what's happening is, is that we're, these people that have been looking for permission have gotten it and they're seeing it.

00:34:07.620 --> 00:34:09.280
 And now they're starting to run with it.

00:34:09.500 --> 00:34:14.500
 And it's, and at this point, you know, I used to be able to like, actually, Chesley Lundy texted me today.

00:34:14.620 --> 00:34:17.660
 He works with me, helped me co-found Digital Church Network.

00:34:18.300 --> 00:34:20.800
 And he's like, hey, do we have a list of the digital church planners?

00:34:21.440 --> 00:34:27.740
 And it used to be that I could sit down, like on a sticky and write down, you know, the 6, 8, 10, 12 names.

00:34:28.180 --> 00:34:34.920
 And at this point, I'm like, dude, I, yeah, like I'd have to, you know, it's our bad for not actually like getting the database up and running sooner.

00:34:35.200 --> 00:34:46.360
 But it's like, man, we've, we're going to have to like scrape it and to go through this because there's just so many people that, that are out there serving that, that we're helping that, that are thinking different.

00:34:46.360 --> 00:34:49.780
 And so, man, I love what you're, you're talking about here.

00:34:50.320 --> 00:34:51.480
 Now, let me ask, let me ask this.

00:34:51.620 --> 00:34:57.960
 If, if we're, you've said the, the, the, uh, the sermonic conversation, you've used that phrase a lot.

00:34:58.120 --> 00:35:03.440
 I guess that's like the, that's more of like a conversational sermon going through a Bible study.

00:35:03.440 --> 00:35:09.200
 You kind of alluded to it a little bit, some questions to try to help the, the, the conversation go through.

00:35:09.680 --> 00:35:19.620
 And so, you know, if you look at Acts 2, the, the, the ecclesiology, the biblical functions of a church, you know, I guess that there's the teaching that that's involved with that.

00:35:20.220 --> 00:35:31.520
 Um, you know, whether we do dog park church or whether we do, um, uh, tattoo church, there's, there's still a portion here of, is this a, is it a rich ecclesiology?

00:35:31.520 --> 00:35:41.380
 Is, is it more limited or like my friends, uh, over at the Wesleyan church, is there any central ecclesiology that you're holding at a higher standard than the other things?

00:35:41.380 --> 00:35:51.980
 Like how do you throttle that ecclesiology when you're helping people start a tattoo church or a dog park church or all these other types of churches that, that we're hearing about?

00:35:52.260 --> 00:35:52.920
 Yeah, excellent.

00:35:52.920 --> 00:36:09.980
 Um, so when we're doing this sermonic conversation, we're, we're thinking about, um, the, the, the report of young people and emerging generations, like the whole faith unbundled concept of, uh, we don't want to be told what to believe, right?

00:36:09.980 --> 00:36:20.460
 We don't want the 30 minute monologue, which is why I'm sure, um, pastors who are streaming their worship services from their inherited congregations and going, this is terrible.

00:36:20.560 --> 00:36:21.840
 Nobody's engaged at all.

00:36:22.000 --> 00:36:22.860
 Well, no, duh.

00:36:22.920 --> 00:36:31.840
 Cause it's like a new form of digital colonialism where we're like projecting ourselves into a space where we haven't been invited, talking a language only we understand, right?

00:36:32.020 --> 00:36:38.980
 People want to have conversations and they, they want to, to be known and, and to ask, oh, so Jesus did that.

00:36:39.080 --> 00:36:40.400
 Well, that, that's great.

00:36:40.600 --> 00:36:43.180
 I didn't know that about, or that's really weird that Jesus did.

00:36:43.420 --> 00:36:49.700
 So we're trying to create that kind of a dialogical environment where people can say, I don't believe that.

00:36:50.100 --> 00:36:54.340
 And we can say, you know, I wrestle with not believing that sometimes too, but here's the way I think about it.

00:36:54.340 --> 00:37:01.000
 So I was creating that, but I think your question's so spot on about, we have to have our ecclesiology straight going into this.

00:37:01.120 --> 00:37:19.840
 And so we have like a minimalist ecclesiology that, um, that being part of a, of a almost 400 year old, uh, you know, movement, uh, church denomination, third largest nomination in the world, which probably lost steam like 350 years ago.

00:37:20.040 --> 00:37:25.060
 But it's been riding the wave of what God did back there in the fields in Bristol, England.

00:37:25.060 --> 00:37:40.500
 But, um, so we go back to the Nicene Creed and in that creed, there's a lot about God, the father, a lot about God, the son, little bit about God, the spirit, because they didn't know what to do with the wild child of the Trinity, the Holy spirit.

00:37:40.660 --> 00:37:48.560
 But when they get to the church, it's just those four words, the church is one, holy, Catholic, and apostolic.

00:37:49.360 --> 00:37:58.020
 So I think there's a lot of wisdom in those words, because if you think about like a robust fresh expression, it'll have those four marks.

00:37:58.240 --> 00:37:59.700
 Is there a oneness?

00:37:59.860 --> 00:38:04.600
 Like Paul gives us those seven ones in Ephesians, one Lord, one God, one baptism, one father.

00:38:05.000 --> 00:38:06.240
 Is there a holiness?

00:38:06.960 --> 00:38:16.300
 So are people worshiping a holy God and being transformed in their relationship with that God, a God of chesed and unfailing love?

00:38:17.000 --> 00:38:20.500
 Is there, um, a Catholicity to the church?

00:38:20.700 --> 00:38:21.360
 Little C.

00:38:21.860 --> 00:38:25.500
 So is there like a connection, um, a universality?

00:38:25.700 --> 00:38:28.320
 Are we, are we in collaboration with other churches?

00:38:28.320 --> 00:38:31.740
 Are we like a little cult, you know, meeting in a tattoo parlor?

00:38:31.940 --> 00:38:36.380
 So those relationships with the wider church are a sign of like a mature church.

00:38:36.780 --> 00:38:39.380
 And then, uh, apostolic.

00:38:39.820 --> 00:38:41.500
 So is there a sentness to the church?

00:38:41.560 --> 00:38:44.700
 Is there a missional dimension to this that we're not just for ourselves?

00:38:44.700 --> 00:38:48.040
 We're here kind of reaching out in the community as part of God's missio dei.

00:38:48.440 --> 00:38:50.020
 So you could break those down.

00:38:50.180 --> 00:38:52.600
 Like the way we talk with our teams are like, what do those words mean?

00:38:52.660 --> 00:38:55.560
 We're just like, is there an upward, inward, outward, and upward dimension?

00:38:56.280 --> 00:39:05.200
 Are we having an upward relationship with God, an upward relationship with each other, an inward relationship, um, inward relationship with each other?

00:39:05.400 --> 00:39:13.540
 Upward of the larger church and an outward, like, are we thinking about people outside ourselves who might find this community to be a gift?

00:39:14.140 --> 00:39:21.740
 So, so that, that just gives us like a framework to think about, uh, maybe some of these things we're not church yet.

00:39:21.860 --> 00:39:28.020
 We're like, we're on the journey towards that, but if we're not worshiping God, then you don't have church, right?

00:39:28.080 --> 00:39:35.620
 If we don't have koinonia, where there's a real deep relationship among each other, people saying, this is my church, this is my people, this is my community.

00:39:35.980 --> 00:39:37.660
 Then that's not really church either.

00:39:38.200 --> 00:39:40.900
 And then last thing I'll say, and I'll shut up because you were coming in there.

00:39:41.500 --> 00:39:51.140
 Um, we don't see that really defined kind of robust ecclesiology, uh, even though it's very simple, it's also very profound in inherited churches.

00:39:52.200 --> 00:39:56.080
 Like I can make the argument, people go, well, that's not a church in a tattoo parlor.

00:39:56.300 --> 00:40:03.780
 I can go, well, if you look at what's happened in a lot of sanctuaries across the country, I can say the same thing.

00:40:03.780 --> 00:40:06.500
 Like, are people worshiping a holy God and being transformed?

00:40:06.500 --> 00:40:08.180
 Are they in relationship with each other?

00:40:08.260 --> 00:40:11.080
 That's deep and authentic and real, or do they just say hi on Sundays?

00:40:11.520 --> 00:40:16.960
 You know, we could go through the whole list, but I think that just gives us like a center to move towards.

00:40:17.380 --> 00:40:18.600
 Sorry, you were jumping in there.

00:40:18.860 --> 00:40:20.900
 No, well, and that, that, that's a great point.

00:40:21.000 --> 00:40:26.880
 I have, um, so you have a much gentler filter than I do.

00:40:27.280 --> 00:40:34.280
 And so when, when, when I say that it, it comes out a lot more sarcastic and, and, and poignant and pointed.

00:40:34.280 --> 00:40:40.780
 So congratulations, I, I, now that we've got that recorded, I'm going to practice my, my, my gentle tone.

00:40:40.960 --> 00:40:42.580
 We're working through that.

00:40:43.040 --> 00:40:54.460
 Um, but I mean, and in, in many ways, I, I do, I do feel like, uh, at least when we look at digital, which is primarily what my context is, but the fresh expressions of what you're describing.

00:40:54.840 --> 00:41:03.420
 I almost feel like it is held to a higher standard, uh, because of hundreds of years of, well, that's just the way that it is.

00:41:03.420 --> 00:41:07.640
 Even going back to, okay, well, why do we do it the way that it is?

00:41:07.640 --> 00:41:22.600
 And, and some of those, some of our practices that we're currently holding don't necessarily come from, well, you know, I, I think, uh, I think Francis Chan said it best is that if, if we actually look at the Bible, how the Bible calls the church.

00:41:22.600 --> 00:41:44.080
 And we look at the organization today that the church is, I don't know that the two match up, um, which is, which is ironic because Francis Chan himself at this point has come up, a celebrity pastor who is struggling with running a church in America because of a celebrity and goes back and forth overseas and struggling with maybe his own identity in the church thing.

00:41:44.080 --> 00:42:01.840
 Uh, like it's, it's hard to produce something, uh, you know, at this point in 2022, any large organizational church is not going to be trusted, is not going, there's this, even this move of decentralization as a result of the metaverse that we're walking into.

00:42:02.500 --> 00:42:23.140
 And, and, and fresh expressions, uh, unique expressions, uh, decentralized movements, um, like what you're working with and, and like what we're seeing with DCN, uh, to be honest, I think this is going to be far more successful moving forward, um, than, than some of these massive organizations and institutions we're creating.

00:42:23.140 --> 00:42:29.820
 If only because people don't trust those organizations and those institutions near at the level they, they did.

00:42:30.060 --> 00:42:31.040
 Are you seeing that?

00:42:31.140 --> 00:42:32.180
 Are you seeing some of that?

00:42:32.500 --> 00:42:33.540
 That distrust?

00:42:33.660 --> 00:42:36.340
 Are you, are you comfortable speaking into that within some of these organizations?

00:42:36.740 --> 00:42:36.940
 Yeah.

00:42:37.260 --> 00:42:43.680
 And, and I think what it comes down to is the fear of the loss of power and, and control.

00:42:44.080 --> 00:42:54.540
 And, um, this is pretty revolutionary stuff because I love Alan Hirsch does a lot with like documenting movements across history.

00:42:54.540 --> 00:43:02.180
 And one of the key things about every really explosive movement of Jesus in the world has been like lay empowerment.

00:43:02.500 --> 00:43:19.620
 And, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, um, you know, following the Holy Spirit, uh, taking precedence over like pyramidal institutional structures.

00:43:19.620 --> 00:43:35.000
 Now, I think over time, every movement we've ever seen in history, and I'll just raise my hand here as a Methodist, they do institutionalize at some point, like those structures kind of harden and, and concretize around the mission.

00:43:35.000 --> 00:43:42.280
 But then they also become restrictive and we can't move and we're not nimble like, um, we used to be.

00:43:42.280 --> 00:43:44.840
 So I think it's part of the whole cycle.

00:43:44.840 --> 00:43:52.200
 And one of the really cool things about Fresh Expressions, it can exist alongside or any, we could talk about, you know, the underground church movement.

00:43:52.200 --> 00:44:01.800
 We could talk about lots of different, similar kind of things that are happening, but they can exist alongside the inherited systems and institutions.

00:44:02.360 --> 00:44:13.580
 And the institutions, they want to like stiff arm and porcupine that, that thinking rather than going, well, what if it just becomes kind of like our R and D department?

00:44:14.040 --> 00:44:15.860
 Like it doesn't threaten our system.

00:44:15.860 --> 00:44:22.900
 It doesn't completely destabilize it where everybody, but it just gives us a way to actually kind of do both.

00:44:23.740 --> 00:44:36.020
 So I think really forward thinking, um, you know, leaders in those institutional positions are starting to see that, um, but probably they're the exception to the rule.

00:44:36.020 --> 00:44:41.920
 Yeah, it's, it's hard to, well, and, and this even gets back to the seminary piece, right?

00:44:42.020 --> 00:44:50.500
 Because for, for decades, these, these, these lead pastors have, have been taught systems that are not what we're talking about.

00:44:50.640 --> 00:44:55.800
 And, and it almost surprises me when you're like, yeah, we talk fresh expressions and, and, and seminary.

00:44:55.860 --> 00:44:56.740
 I'm like, really?

00:44:56.820 --> 00:45:03.040
 That's, I think that's the first time I've, I've ever actually heard that, uh, because it's the majority are not.

00:45:03.600 --> 00:45:10.420
 And, uh, to even be, you know, in 22, even to be sticking to that old system without adapting.

00:45:10.840 --> 00:45:11.680
 It's, it's funny.

00:45:11.760 --> 00:45:18.620
 There was a, um, uh, there's a, there's a, a, a, a high, high level, high capacity Christian leader, well known.

00:45:18.800 --> 00:45:20.160
 I'm not going to drop his name.

00:45:20.160 --> 00:45:32.360
 Uh, but he, uh, he did a podcast maybe, uh, a month ago at this point, but the whole point of the podcast was, hey, pastor, you've pivoted enough.

00:45:32.780 --> 00:45:36.100
 It's been a hard stretch and it's time to stop.

00:45:36.360 --> 00:45:37.300
 No more change.

00:45:37.600 --> 00:45:39.900
 Just wherever you are is good enough for today.

00:45:41.060 --> 00:45:42.220
 And, um, okay.

00:45:42.240 --> 00:45:48.500
 Maybe there's like, that's addressing the mental health issue where maybe, maybe it's necessary to slow down and stop.

00:45:48.880 --> 00:45:54.660
 But where we are today is not good enough to be where, where we need to be.

00:45:54.840 --> 00:46:00.500
 And, and it just was like this really, man, like we, we, we need to, we don't need to stop.

00:46:00.600 --> 00:46:02.800
 We need to keep rolling through this.

00:46:03.180 --> 00:46:17.960
 Um, if, if, if our churches are going to be relevant or worst case scenario, just let the people that want to think different, think different instead of trying to box them in and limit them what they can be.

00:46:17.960 --> 00:46:20.840
 And, and so like your, your R and D angle.

00:46:21.040 --> 00:46:21.140
 Yeah.

00:46:21.160 --> 00:46:27.640
 I mean, that's something that, that we've talked through, uh, with churches and trying to get them to, to look at it that way.

00:46:28.020 --> 00:46:36.960
 Uh, and, uh, some do, some don't, uh, some do and, uh, won't, won't put, they'll acknowledge it.

00:46:37.000 --> 00:46:38.100
 This is the problem I see a lot.

00:46:38.180 --> 00:46:42.560
 They'll acknowledge it, but at the end of the day, they're not going to put energy into it.

00:46:43.080 --> 00:46:55.760
 Um, and so more often than not, those, those, uh, fresh expressions, like they're, they got to be built entirely on their own because the, the organizational church is not feeding into it.

00:46:55.760 --> 00:46:59.620
 Where do you, and let me ask this, where do you find these people?

00:47:00.020 --> 00:47:01.980
 Like, are you finding them through churches?

00:47:02.120 --> 00:47:04.320
 Are you finding them through the denomination?

00:47:04.580 --> 00:47:07.980
 Are you finding them just like where people are finding me on Google?

00:47:08.180 --> 00:47:11.940
 Like, how are you making these connections with people that are wanting to think different?

00:47:12.140 --> 00:47:14.480
 Yeah, and just a follow-up comment to the seminary.

00:47:14.660 --> 00:47:19.580
 Uh, so the fresh, this is a shameless plug, so I, I beg for forgiveness.

00:47:19.880 --> 00:47:21.120
 Ah, go for it.

00:47:21.200 --> 00:47:27.540
 At United Theological Seminary in Dayton, Ohio, we have the only Fresh Expressions House of Studies in the world.

00:47:28.440 --> 00:47:34.760
 So I wouldn't say that this has become part of seminary culture, but we're certainly trying.

00:47:34.900 --> 00:47:42.140
 And even in this sense, it's, it's a, uh, a track that you get in your master divinity or your doctor of ministry degree.

00:47:42.800 --> 00:47:44.040
 It's a focus.

00:47:44.280 --> 00:47:47.640
 So it's, you can mess with it or not.

00:47:47.680 --> 00:47:50.240
 It's not built into the, like, core cravings.

00:47:50.880 --> 00:47:51.880
 I just want to say that.

00:47:52.560 --> 00:47:55.840
 Um, but yeah, so where are we finding these people?

00:47:56.000 --> 00:47:58.600
 So in, in the pews for one.

00:47:58.900 --> 00:48:06.740
 And, and so I like to use Larry as an example, because this is a guy who's gone to church his whole life, eight years old.

00:48:07.420 --> 00:48:13.760
 And no pastor ever asked him, like, what do you do on Saturdays?

00:48:14.700 --> 00:48:15.680
 You know what I'm saying?

00:48:16.020 --> 00:48:21.640
 Like, we typically think of, you know, these gifted, like, you know, whatever.

00:48:21.820 --> 00:48:27.580
 They have the stereotypical kind of, and the professional expert, you know, church planter, evangelist.

00:48:28.040 --> 00:48:29.140
 Larry is 80 years old.

00:48:29.500 --> 00:48:30.980
 He knows Jesus, loves him.

00:48:31.440 --> 00:48:36.020
 And he has friends and gifts and graces that God's given him.

00:48:36.320 --> 00:48:37.760
 And he could do this.

00:48:38.240 --> 00:48:43.520
 Um, so I think the key thing with Larry is he had this group that he liked to gather with.

00:48:43.580 --> 00:48:46.060
 He had this passion around animals, dog lovers.

00:48:46.060 --> 00:48:50.460
 It's like a huge thing across our, our, our, our culture.

00:48:50.980 --> 00:48:54.520
 Um, and, and he was willing to just try to experiment and see where that goes.

00:48:54.620 --> 00:49:01.680
 So I think one, I don't want to set this like image of these people are these, you know, edgy, abnormal people.

00:49:01.960 --> 00:49:05.920
 I think that they are just sitting in our, my United Methodist women.

00:49:06.220 --> 00:49:12.340
 Jeff, the United Methodist women are like the most traditional Methodist group in the church.

00:49:12.340 --> 00:49:12.660
 Okay.

00:49:13.080 --> 00:49:16.320
 They're the ones who actually really run the church, by the way.

00:49:16.460 --> 00:49:18.300
 They, they tell the pastor what's going to happen.

00:49:18.880 --> 00:49:28.560
 But anyway, they got together and, and they were like, pastor, well, we know sea glass jewelry and we know arts and crafts and we know these things.

00:49:28.560 --> 00:49:37.420
 So we want to rent out the community center on Sunday afternoons and we want to teach the community how to do sea glass jewelry, these things.

00:49:37.900 --> 00:49:43.240
 And I was like, all right, you know, I don't know that there's a huge demand in the world for sea glass jewelry, arts and crafts.

00:49:43.640 --> 00:49:46.540
 Well, they started this fresh expression called arts for love.

00:49:46.540 --> 00:49:56.120
 And there was like dozens of families coming to the community center to learn sea glass jewelry and arts and crafts and all the cool stuff they were doing.

00:49:56.120 --> 00:50:03.680
 So I totally underestimated their missional heart and their ability and the communities like would lean towards something like that.

00:50:04.040 --> 00:50:06.880
 So one, just demystifying who are they?

00:50:06.960 --> 00:50:08.180
 They're like in our churches.

00:50:08.380 --> 00:50:09.860
 They're, they're followers of Jesus.

00:50:10.180 --> 00:50:16.140
 They're, they, they're, they're just the normal people that, that the Holy Spirit's in their, in their life.

00:50:16.560 --> 00:50:29.840
 And then a lot of times, like I've been in some congregations where there wasn't maybe a handful, two or three, or I could imagine in some cases there might not be any who would want to do some things like this.

00:50:31.140 --> 00:50:46.540
 And, and, and that's when I kind of go outside the camp and I just start hanging out in the Moe's Southwest Grill, talking to Adrian, the manager of Moe's, hanging out, you know, down in the, the Martin Luther King Jr. building where we're doing different kind of, you know,

00:50:46.560 --> 00:50:53.940
 rallies and things like that, meeting people, connecting with the community, and then partnering with those people that are already doing stuff in the community.

00:50:54.460 --> 00:50:56.000
 So it could work those two ways.

00:50:56.000 --> 00:50:59.880
 There's like the people that are already sitting in our pews and then there's the people out in the community.

00:51:00.000 --> 00:51:05.560
 If we could just get out there and inhabit those third places and hang out with people, we would meet them.

00:51:07.840 --> 00:51:10.660
 And, and to what you said, I think there's something really important.

00:51:10.900 --> 00:51:18.620
 I had somebody asked me this week and we took over, we took in a congregation during COVID that was on the closure list.

00:51:18.620 --> 00:51:22.700
 And, and that's my wife and I, that's our jam.

00:51:22.820 --> 00:51:27.640
 We like churches that are like fixing to close on death doorstep.

00:51:27.860 --> 00:51:29.840
 That's our calling is those churches.

00:51:29.940 --> 00:51:32.340
 We, we pray for God to send us to the churches.

00:51:32.340 --> 00:51:33.680
 No one else wants or sees.

00:51:34.560 --> 00:51:39.040
 And this congregation, you know, they've been really tired.

00:51:39.160 --> 00:51:41.400
 They've been trying to hold this thing together for so long.

00:51:41.400 --> 00:51:45.980
 And it's like long range plans and strategic goals.

00:51:45.980 --> 00:51:49.320
 And they're like, we've seen that for 140 years and they don't work.

00:51:50.200 --> 00:51:54.580
 And so I was like, all right, well, what if we start a community dinner?

00:51:55.300 --> 00:52:00.600
 Give me three months and everybody divide up and pick a night on a Wednesday night.

00:52:00.600 --> 00:52:03.200
 It's called family table that you'll cook a meal.

00:52:03.540 --> 00:52:10.260
 And let's see if we can invite people in the community and see if they'll step in and maybe they want to prepare some meals and be a part of it.

00:52:10.820 --> 00:52:12.280
 Just give me three months.

00:52:13.160 --> 00:52:16.960
 So you were talking about, you know, the massive level of change and how hard that is.

00:52:17.500 --> 00:52:20.900
 Well, short term experiments, try three months.

00:52:21.040 --> 00:52:25.500
 So we start this thing out and people from the community start showing up and it's good.

00:52:25.580 --> 00:52:28.640
 And we're like, hey, can anybody cook the meal in three weeks?

00:52:28.680 --> 00:52:29.960
 We need a team to do that.

00:52:30.420 --> 00:52:31.800
 And so they start taking ownership.

00:52:32.040 --> 00:52:32.420
 They start.

00:52:32.900 --> 00:52:40.020
 So I think in the church, we think we have to do ministry to people all the time rather than let's create a space where the community can come together.

00:52:40.020 --> 00:52:42.380
 And then we'll figure it out as we go.

00:52:43.200 --> 00:52:47.680
 So somebody from the church last week, they asked me what the plan was.

00:52:48.340 --> 00:52:54.920
 And they really wanted that like five steps, you know, vision statement, three, we're going to do these three things.

00:52:54.920 --> 00:52:57.180
 And here's the, you know, goals for 2023.

00:52:57.560 --> 00:52:59.580
 And I said, here's what I think the plan is.

00:53:00.060 --> 00:53:11.760
 I think the plan is to discern the activity of the Holy Spirit on a daily, weekly, monthly basis and join into what the Holy Spirit is doing.

00:53:13.860 --> 00:53:18.120
 And they're like, so when are you going to tell me about the plan?

00:53:18.380 --> 00:53:20.540
 And I was like, that's the plan.

00:53:21.420 --> 00:53:27.420
 But yeah, so that kind of thinking, it just doesn't come natural, I think, to church folks.

00:53:27.420 --> 00:53:37.360
 Yeah, I mean, we're at this place where, man, we've really planned the Holy Spirit out of, in many ways, the churches that we're operating in.

00:53:38.060 --> 00:53:50.220
 And, you know, we've led, we've strategized, we've planned, we've forecasted, you know, and as a result of it, honestly, I feel like sometimes it's hollow.

00:53:50.220 --> 00:53:59.420
 And when I look back at my church staffing experience, you know, and I've said this publicly, like, I don't know how much of it was really the Holy Spirit movement.

00:53:59.520 --> 00:54:03.220
 I was just really working really hard to get it done.

00:54:03.740 --> 00:54:08.040
 And I can tell you, you know, even in my own life today, I struggle with that.

00:54:08.280 --> 00:54:20.020
 You know, it's, I need to fall back on more spirit, fall back more on prayer, position myself more in a place where I'm trusting instead of working.

00:54:20.220 --> 00:54:21.920
 And if you know me, I'm a workaholic.

00:54:22.060 --> 00:54:25.260
 And so that, that, that takes a lot to say.

00:54:26.200 --> 00:54:32.600
 But I think what's, what's happening as, as a result of it is we're really leaning more into that experimental nature.

00:54:33.000 --> 00:54:43.060
 And there's, there's a lot of fundamental shifts that are coming as, as a result of, of metaverse, where decentralization is a big part of this.

00:54:43.200 --> 00:54:52.180
 But moving from a hierarchy to a network leader and a hierarchy to a network, more of how we want to work with people instead of being told what to do.

00:54:52.580 --> 00:54:55.200
 We want to, we don't want the five-year plan.

00:54:55.300 --> 00:54:56.720
 We want the three-month plan.

00:54:56.840 --> 00:55:05.660
 We want to experiment and we want to be able to provide feedback on how it's going and not be told how it's going, but be part of that conversation.

00:55:06.080 --> 00:55:20.140
 And so more and more of what we're doing and what I'm hearing as you're describing these fresh expressions, man, it's, this is a, this is what the future of church is going to look like, is more decentralization, more fresh expressions.

00:55:20.140 --> 00:55:25.360
 And yes, the big buildings will have its part, physical locations will have a part.

00:55:25.940 --> 00:55:36.260
 But I can tell you, at least what I'm seeing on the digital space is that the people that we're reaching in the digital and in metaverse churches are people that the buildings are not.

00:55:36.480 --> 00:55:42.160
 Like I, I, I honestly can stand before God and say that we are not competing with the physical buildings.

00:55:42.160 --> 00:55:49.920
 And I'm willing to bet the person that's going to go to tattoo church or dog park church is probably not the same people that are going to the buildings on Sunday morning.

00:55:50.140 --> 00:55:51.700
 Uh, you, you, you would agree to that, wouldn't you?

00:55:51.960 --> 00:55:52.360
 Absolutely.

00:55:52.740 --> 00:56:01.720
 And so we've, we've just got this great opportunity to do something, literally to do something different to reach a different type of person, uh, than the buildings are.

00:56:01.820 --> 00:56:05.540
 And so, Hey, Michael, this has been, this has been a great conversation.

00:56:05.540 --> 00:56:14.580
 I'm, I'm looking forward to, uh, to learning more and talking more over here with leadership network here in a month or so, digging into, um, living room church.

00:56:14.580 --> 00:56:21.320
 Uh, cause I, I'm, I'm excited to hear some stories centered around that, but Hey, as, as we're landing the plane here, any, any closing thoughts?

00:56:21.700 --> 00:56:24.960
 No, I just, um, it's been an amazing conversation with you.

00:56:25.100 --> 00:56:34.680
 And, um, I think if I had to say one last closing thing, um, I would say that this is an exciting time to be the church.

00:56:34.680 --> 00:56:38.180
 It's, it's a challenging time and it's hard.

00:56:38.180 --> 00:56:49.720
 No, no, I don't think any one of us like change when it involves us like losing things or even losing a sense of like our bearings in a particular situation.

00:56:50.460 --> 00:56:58.480
 But I think the Holy spirit is doing a groundswell movement that is really going to become the future of the church.

00:56:59.340 --> 00:57:01.500
 And, um, we get to be a part of that right now.

00:57:01.880 --> 00:57:05.000
 Um, but it does require missional imagination.

00:57:05.000 --> 00:57:10.660
 It does have to understand mission as a tribute of God of his outflowing love in the world.

00:57:10.960 --> 00:57:19.820
 And that there's really no boundaries to that in my mind of, of how God will reach people that he loves his children that are fearfully,

00:57:19.820 --> 00:57:21.800
 really wonderfully made in his image, male and female.

00:57:22.540 --> 00:57:29.440
 Um, and if we can just get into that channel of God's love, then we're going to see all kinds of amazing stuff happen.

00:57:29.880 --> 00:57:30.000
 Beautiful.

00:57:30.180 --> 00:57:30.900
 What, well said.

00:57:31.200 --> 00:57:33.580
 And Hey, we're going to have to, we're going to have to have more of these conversations.

00:57:33.580 --> 00:57:35.100
 Like this is, this is exciting.

00:57:35.580 --> 00:57:36.600
 Missional imagination.

00:57:36.600 --> 00:57:45.200
 And I didn't, I didn't, it is that just those two words are resonating with me right now at a very high capacity.

00:57:45.200 --> 00:57:50.200
 And it's like my, my mind starts going crazy in different directions.

00:57:50.540 --> 00:57:57.780
 To be honest, I've not even told some of these ideas to my wife yet because like, like it's just, it's too crazy and it's half baked.

00:57:57.780 --> 00:58:01.460
 And like, I need to, I need to solidify some things, but I'm, I'm really excited.

00:58:02.000 --> 00:58:07.080
 Um, at how, you know, tying it into DCN digital church network and how we're going to be able to help this.

00:58:07.320 --> 00:58:09.620
 And so Michael, man, thank you for the time.

00:58:09.680 --> 00:58:10.340
 This is great.

00:58:10.340 --> 00:58:17.260
 And stay tuned, uh, towards more, uh, missional imagination coming soon here, uh, to a digital church network near you.

00:58:17.260 --> 00:58:25.440
 But for, uh, for Michael, uh, this is Jeff, uh, with, uh, digital church network, the church digital leadership network and blah, blah, blah.

00:58:25.500 --> 00:58:26.580
 A whole bunch of fun stuff.

00:58:26.680 --> 00:58:28.260
 Thanks for jumping on the podcast here.

00:58:28.520 --> 00:58:29.860
 We'll see you next time on the show.

00:58:30.840 --> 00:58:31.640
 Y'all have a good day.