WEBVTT

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 Well, I think first you have to give up the right to be right.

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 And any good relationship, there's going to be dynamics and roles and things like we're the teacher, you're the student.

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 There's that kind of relationship.

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 There's father, son, mother, daughter, whatever, all that brother, sister types of relationships you can have.

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 And with the church online, I think the only real way you can convey love and care is by sharing stories of love and care.

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 Welcome to the Church Digital Podcast.

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 Through this podcast, we'll talk about the technological innovations within the church.

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 But more than tech or tech itself, we'll address deeper questions.

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 Is disciple making possible digitally?

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 How should we approach the digital mission field?

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 Can a biblically grounded church operate in digital space?

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 Oh, and where does the metaverse fit into all this?

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 Whether you're a big or small church, an established church or a startup church plant,

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 the Church Digital's goal is to help churches like yours learn to be a multiplying church, digitally and physically.

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 Our heart?

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 That churches like yours will discover a newfound focus on disciple making that will revolutionize your church.

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 And now, here's your host, Jeff Reed.

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 Hey, welcome to the Church Digital Podcast.

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 I'm excited about this conversation.

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 I say that every week, but I really like this.

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 This is going to be a fun topic and a fun guest we've got coming up before we get there.

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 Hey, right off the bat, if you're not part of FAM, Digital Church Networks, online community, family,

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 we want to invite you to go ahead and do that.

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 Create a free account, get connected with hundreds of digital pastors, digital planters, digital innovators for the church.

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 Some really interesting conversations, some really interesting trainings and roundtables happening right now.

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 So get that coaching, get that community, get that care over at digitalchurch.networksFAM.

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 You can find that at famfam.digitalchurch.network.

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 So how was that for a commercial?

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 We're going to call that done.

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 I think that was the quickest I've ever done that, fam.digitalchurch.network.

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 Okay, so let's get into this conversation.

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 I almost feel like that was like the disclaimer.

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 You got to get that out there and now you can actually get on with the show.

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 And so it's funny.

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 Anytime anybody that does any work in digital ministry knows what it's like to bump up against,

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 oh, let's just go and call it.

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 Let's call it what it is.

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 You know, we're not going to run away from this.

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 We bump up against rude people.

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 We get slammed unexpectedly.

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 We get criticized unexpectedly.

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 You get somebody going off on a tirade about something who's trying to prove a point.

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 And at the heart of this, we as digital ministers and digital pastors and people who, I don't know,

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 exist in this world called the Internet, we've got to figure out how to love the people that are sometimes the unlovable.

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 And so for this conversation, I want to go ahead and bring in someone who I don't necessarily consider unlovable.

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 But we've got Seth Muse coming into the conversation here.

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 Hey, Seth, how are you doing, man?

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 Hey, man.

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 Thanks for having me on again.

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 Okay, so like I love having podcasts and having conversations with Seth.

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 And so because he just it's the two of us.

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 Like, I don't know if it's because I lived in Dallas for a while and he's in Dallas.

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 But I just I feel relaxed.

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 I feel comical.

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 I feel like I'm having fun.

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 I feel like I can say things that, you know, maybe I wouldn't necessarily say publicly because I think Seth kind of brings that out in me.

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 And as a matter of fact, you know, Seth, if you were to go back through, you know, some of the some of our past conversations,

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 like I'm even thinking about Baby Yoda Must Die going back from like the what was what was that podcast we did together?

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 Pastor Nerds, Pastor Nerd Chat.

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 It was the Nerd Pastor podcast that I co-hosted with my friend Justin.

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 And yeah, you were you.

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 I think we both have a very surly nature of, you know, just kind of a, well, I'm just going to say this thing.

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 We're all going to deal with it afterwards kind of attitude.

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 And that's something that we share that we enjoy about each other, I think.

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 Which is really interesting because now we've got two surly dudes who are talking about rude people on the Internet.

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 So I'm not really sure where this is going to go.

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 But I think it's going to be fun, right?

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 So so so let me ask you from somebody who who sat through a podcast where I was going off on how Baby Yoda must die,

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 which, by the way, if you've watched the new Obi-Wan and have experienced the the little child,

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 I'm not going to do any spoilers running around.

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 It's episode part three literally has happened.

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 It's so much better than freaking Baby Yoda.

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 It's great.

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 Like this is what it's it's it's this is this is it we've baby Yoda was like the prequel.

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 It was the episode point five for it for what this should have been.

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 So, yeah, very good.

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 They had to walk before they run and or force jump.

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 They had to they had to get ready and figure out the formula.

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 And yes, Obi-Wan is I love it.

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 I think it's peak Star Wars.

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 I'm excited.

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 I hear they greenlit a season two now because of the fan outpouring of of of reception for it,

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 which is really nice.

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 So it's good.

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 It's yeah, we have that in common for sure.

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 We love that.

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 Love the nerd world.

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 Yeah, I don't know that we'll ever see a Star Wars movie again.

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 Oh, we will.

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 You think?

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 I just don't know that we'll see another good one, but we'll see.

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 We'll see what we're going to see a bunch of them.

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 There's money to be made, man.

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 Oh, this is quickly going to become a Star Wars.

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 This is going to become a Star Wars podcast.

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 I really don't want it to.

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 Well, who's the name of the producer?

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 I literally just blanked on the name of the producer.

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 Who's the name of the producer?

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 Taika Waititi is going to do the one who did Thor Ragnarok.

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 And he's doing the.

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 But who's the overall producer?

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 I don't know.

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 Oh, Kathleen Kennedy's overall.

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 Kathleen Kennedy.

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 She she produced the first Jurassic Park.

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 Really?

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 I was blown away.

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 I was I was watching Jurassic Park with my son.

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 He's 11 and kind of freaked out a little bit, which was awesome and cool at the same time.

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 A little scary.

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 But in the credits, Kathleen Kennedy produced her.

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 I was like, oh, I didn't know she went that far back.

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 Yeah, I guess so.

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 I didn't either.

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 Cool.

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 Anyway.

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 Hey, let's get into rude people.

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 We're going to transfer from Kathleen Kennedy to rude people.

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 Kathleen Kennedy actually probably deals with a lot of rude people that have opinions centered around Star Wars.

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 So, I mean, look, the heart of this is we on the Internet, we just because of the anonymity, anonymity because of the separation, people feel like they can say whatever they want to say.

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 And with no recourse or consequences.

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 And as a result, I don't know, I can get away with saying things like baby Yoda must die, even though I don't know that I really hate the little green glob of whatever it is.

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 But the heart of it is, is that people feel like they can.

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 And what's interesting is in digital ministry spaces, I mean, that oftentimes feels like it's pushing away from what we're trying to accomplish.

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 But even the trolls need Jesus.

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 And so, you know, Seth, let me just even ask you up front here.

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 We can go all sorts of places in this conversation.

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 But why are people so rude on the Internet?

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 I think you you hit a bunch of it there.

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 And and it's funny we started talking about Star Wars because that fandom is a case study in toxic Internet trolls and how, you know, a fandom can really get negative and go bad and how the Internet can be an unhappy place for people who love that that world, which I do.

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 And so, you know, you get a lot of gatekeeping and things.

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 So you transfer that over to the church and see how that work.

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 I think there's a lot of things to it.

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 I think there's a lot of elements why people feel rude.

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 You said anonymity.

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 That's one for sure.

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 You know, people feel like they can say things because there's no recourse.

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 There's no face to face.

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 They're a little bit bolder, you know, with what they'll they're willing to do on the Internet.

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 And that's unfortunate for a lot of things.

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 And then now we're starting to see some accountability for that, you know, in certain places, which is nice.

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 Honestly, I think now it's it's the way it is so bad now.

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 I think we're just mentally and emotionally exhausted over the last several years.

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 We're all just really tired of living through unprecedented events.

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 You know, we're tired of one after the other.

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 We're tired of having to work really hard to figure out what the truth about things is or, you know, and we didn't have to do that before.

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 Maybe we should have, but we really didn't have to work this hard just to find out what happened.

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 What happened?

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 And it feels like I'll tell you this as a as an ex-youth pastor.

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 I'll tell you, it feels a lot like we're we're stuck on the third night of youth camp.

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 Third night of youth camp.

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 You haven't slept.

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 You're so tired.

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 Your defenses are down.

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 You have no energy to put up any kind of, you know, emotional walls or have any patience whatsoever.

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 And you either have breakdowns or breakthroughs.

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 What we say third night of youth camp is breakdown or breakthrough.

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 People are going to finally allow the Holy Spirit to work in their life or they're going to get in a fight.

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 And one of those things is going to happen with almost every person because we're just so exhausted from being out in the sun.

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 I grew up in youth camp when you couldn't.

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 They'd kick you out of the house, you know, just like your parents would.

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 They'd kick you out of the dorm.

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 You couldn't go back to the air conditioning.

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 They had six hours of free time in the hottest part of the day in Oklahoma.

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 You know, and it was just like somebody's going to get somebody's going to end up in the hospital.

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 You know, it's crazy.

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 And so I feel like we're there and everyone is just so on edge because of world events and online negativity is just thrown in your face.

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 It's hard.

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 It's hard to feel anything else.

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 Somebody else said this, too.

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 It's like if that's what you're seeing, it's because that's what you're you're you want to see.

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 You know, the algorithm exists to show you what you really want to see.

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 And so when you're seeing a lot of negativity, there's some introspection to do here of like, what's going on with me?

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 If I feel bad, why am I?

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 They call it doom scrolling.

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 You're actually doom scrolling.

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 You're looking for the negative in your feed because for some reason, you actually kind of like it.

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 And that's a mental issue, I think, for us to all, you know, kind of look at ourselves and go, is that me?

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 But honestly, I think it's just we're just tired and people's patience is over.

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 And there are some big things going on in the world.

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 People feel passionate about it.

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 So you mix all that in with the anonymity of like no fear of consequence.

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 And you've got a pretty big problem on your hands.

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 You know, interviewed Digital Metaverse Church, I've interviewed by recently a lot of different press people.

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 And this one reporter was texting me.

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 Ultimately, he wanted to get like a 90 second story on Metaverse Church.

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 And he's literally texting me to give me to give him soundbites and quotes for his for his story.

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 And, you know, and I didn't realize it was 90 seconds.

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 I was I'm telling him, you know, this massive story.

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 And he's like, dude, I literally I want I want like 90 seconds total time.

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 And I made the comment.

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 I was like, well, man, I don't know what you can tell the entire story in 90 seconds.

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 And he's like, well, Jeff, as a reporter, I've already acknowledged that there's no way that I can tell truth in 90 seconds.

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 That's not my job.

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 My job is to inform, not to tell the truth.

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 And I was like, that's and I'm not I'm not going to out the organization like that.

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 That's not what I'm going.

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 But I mean, that's that's this this world that we live in, that even the people that are supposed to be reporting the truth are saying, hey, I can't we can't we can't do this in this intensive time constraint environment that we're in.

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 And so we're just trying to to do the best that we can with it.

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 And I think media should take some responsibility for that, for sure.

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 I mean, the rhetoric that's out there, we've seen, you know, politicians get up front and the way they talk to each other has changed.

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 And it's really leading the charge and like, you know, giving the green light for people.

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 Leadership matters, you know, and who you follow matters and who you allow to speak into your life matters.

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 And when you're champion is somebody who treats people like crap, then that makes you feel like it's OK, too.

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 You just it just it's a natural transference of of example.

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 And, you know, that's why in the church we have to be really good about leading by example.

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 And unfortunately, because of who some of our church leaders are following, they're becoming like those leaders and then leading by example to their people.

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 It just trickles down like there's some trickle down economics that really work.

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 You know, your trickle down economics of personality will really work.

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 I'm not sure it does in the economy in real life, but in like your personality and how you behave, you know, example matters.

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 A big, big, big deal.

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 I've never melded together Ronald Reagan economics and the echo chamber together until this one moment.

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 So that was that was that was that was pretty deep right there.

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 It's the nature of the echo.

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 You get you get more and more of what is put out.

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 I just happen to have a Ronald Reagan Funko Pop doll on my desk, literally right here.

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 And so this podcast episode is brought to you in part by Ronald Reagan trickle down economics.

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 And the fact that I know it's Ronald Reagan is because my father was a history teacher, which is a completely other podcast conversation.

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 Well, they did.

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 They just released the Nancy Reagan stamp today.

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 That was today.

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 Did they really?

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 Yeah, they did.

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 Commemorative Nancy Reagan stamp.

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 I feel like I used a Nancy Reagan gif within the past couple of days.

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 A what?

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 A gif.

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 I'm sorry.

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 Oh, a gif.

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 I meant to say gif, but I said gif because that's that's the way you should say it because of peanut butter.

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 Yeah, I thought you were talking about peanut butter.

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 I can see where you might be confused, but that's only slightly rude because I understood who you are as a person was able to see value beyond the words that are coming out of your mouth.

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 Yeah, you see, that's what we do.

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 All right.

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 So worst online rude story.

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 I'm just going to open it up here with love, Seth Muse.

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 This is somebody who deals with the Internet a lot and is spending a lot of time with Seminary of Hard Knocks.

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 Ministry in digital space has done staffing as communications director for churches like this guy's been around.

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 So I'm giving you platform the worst rude story.

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 Go.

00:14:23.960 --> 00:14:25.440
 It actually doesn't have anything to do with church.

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 This this particular one.

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 I honestly was like, which story to tell?

00:14:28.860 --> 00:14:32.300
 You know, when you asked me, you said you were going to ask me this.

00:14:34.180 --> 00:14:36.140
 OK, so this guy I was friends with in high school.

00:14:37.640 --> 00:14:41.740
 It's kind of a jerk anyway, but, you know, I don't know.

00:14:41.800 --> 00:14:43.820
 I guess I gravitate towards like minded people.

00:14:44.020 --> 00:14:45.220
 I'm kind of like that way, too.

00:14:45.320 --> 00:14:49.820
 So we hung out in high school and eventually, you know, we stopped being friends.

00:14:50.720 --> 00:14:51.660
 Years go by.

00:14:51.780 --> 00:14:53.160
 My brother is in a band.

00:14:53.300 --> 00:14:54.000
 He's in Austin.

00:14:54.340 --> 00:14:55.680
 He has this really great breakthrough.

00:14:55.920 --> 00:15:01.260
 He gets to open for a band that we all loved when we were kids, like the Toadies or the name of the band.

00:15:01.380 --> 00:15:02.060
 If you ever heard of the Toadies.

00:15:03.040 --> 00:15:05.480
 So his band gets to open for the Toadies like the first time.

00:15:05.560 --> 00:15:07.080
 And since then, he's gotten to do that several times.

00:15:07.200 --> 00:15:07.840
 It's really great.

00:15:08.200 --> 00:15:09.280
 But I was just really proud of him.

00:15:09.360 --> 00:15:13.140
 So I share this thing on Facebook, like so proud he gets to open for the Toadies.

00:15:13.140 --> 00:15:18.660
 And this guy comes out of nowhere and is like, he's not that big of a deal.

00:15:18.940 --> 00:15:21.000
 He's just a small time band in Austin.

00:15:21.360 --> 00:15:28.360
 This is not really basically kind of like you're over exaggerating how big your brother is.

00:15:28.800 --> 00:15:31.240
 And you really shouldn't be this excited.

00:15:31.600 --> 00:15:34.380
 You know, I'm like, I'm trying to be excited for my brother.

00:15:34.900 --> 00:15:36.400
 I'm happy for something for him.

00:15:36.720 --> 00:15:44.000
 And it was just kind of like, are you telling me I shouldn't be proud of an accomplishment for my brother and just want to share that with the world?

00:15:44.080 --> 00:15:44.900
 Like, what's wrong with you?

00:15:45.420 --> 00:15:50.440
 And so I responded back and like, hey, you know, I'm just trying to be, I'm happy for my brother, dude.

00:15:50.520 --> 00:15:54.340
 And I don't care that he's not a big deal.

00:15:54.400 --> 00:15:55.640
 That's kind of a rude thing to say.

00:15:56.640 --> 00:16:08.840
 And man, when I said that, he called me a fat youth pastor riding my brother's coattails of fame and just went off.

00:16:09.600 --> 00:16:15.040
 And I'm just like, it's so rude to call me a fat youth pastor.

00:16:15.100 --> 00:16:17.140
 But why is youth pastor part of the insult?

00:16:18.420 --> 00:16:21.560
 Like, instead of saying a fat jerk, I'm a fat youth pastor.

00:16:21.640 --> 00:16:24.480
 It's like a really weird combo of words and I'll never forget it.

00:16:24.680 --> 00:16:25.880
 But it was just super rude.

00:16:25.880 --> 00:16:29.780
 Like, you would never say that to somebody to their face.

00:16:30.820 --> 00:16:39.700
 And, you know, full disclosure, the last time we ever really talked, he and I, was when he slapped my brother and then I punched him in the face.

00:16:40.120 --> 00:16:42.160
 And that was a fight we got into in high school.

00:16:42.760 --> 00:16:43.580
 So that was really...

00:16:43.580 --> 00:16:44.880
 So this was before...

00:16:44.880 --> 00:16:46.640
 That's what ended the friendship right there.

00:16:46.860 --> 00:16:47.080
 Yeah.

00:16:47.300 --> 00:16:48.920
 So it didn't end on great terms anyway.

00:16:49.240 --> 00:16:49.540
 Okay.

00:16:49.840 --> 00:16:50.340
 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:16:50.700 --> 00:16:53.540
 Well, yeah, I would imagine punching somebody in the face would probably end the friendship.

00:16:53.900 --> 00:16:54.960
 Yeah, yeah, for sure.

00:16:55.600 --> 00:16:57.520
 You know, but you don't mess with my family, man.

00:16:57.580 --> 00:17:00.780
 So it's weird that it come full circle back to something to do with my brother.

00:17:00.780 --> 00:17:02.820
 And he always treated his sister like garbage.

00:17:02.920 --> 00:17:03.840
 And I always thought that was terrible.

00:17:04.400 --> 00:17:09.300
 But anyway, point is, is that, you know, at that point I was like, you know what?

00:17:09.420 --> 00:17:10.620
 I don't have to say anything to this guy.

00:17:11.740 --> 00:17:15.720
 And I knew what would happen and what happened did happen.

00:17:15.900 --> 00:17:22.580
 A lot of my friends came to my defense and were like, rip that guy up, you know, and I just let it happen, you know.

00:17:22.660 --> 00:17:23.880
 And then finally I just blocked him.

00:17:24.340 --> 00:17:26.740
 You know, he was being belligerent and I was just like, I'm done.

00:17:27.620 --> 00:17:28.860
 It's that kind of stuff.

00:17:28.900 --> 00:17:30.520
 It's like, why would you say that?

00:17:31.300 --> 00:17:33.240
 You know, you started that.

00:17:35.060 --> 00:17:35.420
 Why?

00:17:35.420 --> 00:17:37.980
 I was saying I'm happy for my brother.

00:17:38.400 --> 00:17:41.740
 You feel the need to try to stop me from that.

00:17:42.000 --> 00:17:42.900
 Like, what is your problem?

00:17:43.640 --> 00:17:44.820
 And that's what we're seeing.

00:17:44.960 --> 00:17:51.400
 There's a lot of just unnecessary inserting of yourself into situations with an opinion of negativity.

00:17:52.760 --> 00:17:53.900
 And you're not wanted.

00:17:54.700 --> 00:17:57.820
 Like, nobody wants to hear what you have to say.

00:17:57.920 --> 00:17:59.260
 Just let us have our moment.

00:17:59.360 --> 00:18:00.140
 The same way with Star Wars.

00:18:00.240 --> 00:18:02.580
 Just like, if you don't like it, it's fine.

00:18:03.040 --> 00:18:05.140
 You go on a podcast, you can talk about it.

00:18:05.140 --> 00:18:05.740
 I don't like it.

00:18:05.760 --> 00:18:06.380
 Here's why I don't like it.

00:18:06.380 --> 00:18:07.120
 That's fine.

00:18:07.620 --> 00:18:09.960
 But man, don't stop people who do like it.

00:18:10.540 --> 00:18:11.700
 What is your problem?

00:18:11.780 --> 00:18:13.520
 Why do you just not want people to be happy?

00:18:13.900 --> 00:18:15.280
 It's like, what is the deal?

00:18:15.820 --> 00:18:17.940
 That is my worst story, really.

00:18:18.000 --> 00:18:19.100
 That's the one that made me feel the worst.

00:18:19.160 --> 00:18:22.180
 Because he insulted me and I, you know, that hurt.

00:18:22.820 --> 00:18:23.880
 You know, I didn't like that.

00:18:24.500 --> 00:18:26.780
 And I just couldn't.

00:18:27.120 --> 00:18:31.720
 Man, when you work for a church, it really limits like what you feel like you can say.

00:18:32.560 --> 00:18:37.500
 Had he said that now, when I'm not on church staff, I don't know what I would do.

00:18:37.820 --> 00:18:38.960
 I don't know how that would be different.

00:18:39.960 --> 00:18:41.160
 Honestly, it'd probably be the same.

00:18:41.240 --> 00:18:42.400
 I'd probably just block it and move on.

00:18:42.520 --> 00:18:44.280
 But it just, it's so rude.

00:18:44.620 --> 00:18:45.760
 Such a rude thing to say.

00:18:45.760 --> 00:18:52.640
 You know, I, for one, I respect the purpose that some people feel like there is a reason that Baby Yoda exists.

00:18:52.940 --> 00:18:54.620
 I just, for one, don't agree with it.

00:18:55.300 --> 00:19:00.380
 Your friend, however, you know, it's like things like, what is, what's the motive?

00:19:01.000 --> 00:19:03.020
 What is he trying to accomplish?

00:19:04.360 --> 00:19:14.100
 And then a little bit, like, with your response, okay, you're a fat youth pastor who's writing your son's, or your brother's coattails.

00:19:14.540 --> 00:19:19.880
 Like, that being said, what do you hope to accomplish with any further conversation?

00:19:21.520 --> 00:19:27.980
 And, and, and so it's, it's, it's almost like, you know, and this gets even back to the, the scripture of Jesus, turn the other cheek.

00:19:28.060 --> 00:19:33.500
 When it's that hard and when it's that heavy, man, what, what is actually going to happen?

00:19:33.780 --> 00:19:35.100
 You're going to say something back.

00:19:35.160 --> 00:19:36.240
 He's going to say something back.

00:19:36.280 --> 00:19:40.360
 A whole bunch of people are going to jump on board and it's going to be World War III Twitter edition.

00:19:40.820 --> 00:19:47.240
 And, and, and it's, and at that point, it's like, man, what was, was anything in this glorifying to the kingdom?

00:19:47.460 --> 00:19:48.060
 There's no point.

00:19:48.460 --> 00:19:56.460
 And I think that 90% of these types of interactions that get, get real bad could probably be avoided.

00:19:56.460 --> 00:20:04.360
 If we will say who, those who are offended will go, okay, fine.

00:20:05.420 --> 00:20:06.540
 I'm moving on.

00:20:07.180 --> 00:20:08.720
 I don't need to respond.

00:20:09.120 --> 00:20:12.260
 I don't need you to change your mind.

00:20:13.740 --> 00:20:14.920
 And, and that's so hard.

00:20:15.120 --> 00:20:18.940
 And because for me, I want everyone, I want everyone to agree.

00:20:19.080 --> 00:20:20.760
 I want everybody to understand.

00:20:20.940 --> 00:20:27.080
 I want you, oh, you think that, well, let me show you why that, what you think has a lot of holes in it.

00:20:27.100 --> 00:20:28.720
 You know, I, I'm a teacher at heart.

00:20:28.820 --> 00:20:33.920
 I really want to help you learn, but I also, I don't want you to go out there and tell anybody else this the wrong way.

00:20:34.240 --> 00:20:36.000
 You know, and like, that's my concern.

00:20:36.000 --> 00:20:37.840
 And I realize that's not my job.

00:20:38.420 --> 00:20:42.120
 I'm not, I'm not responsible for you in every way.

00:20:42.240 --> 00:20:44.760
 You know, I'm trying to, I can do my part, but that's really it.

00:20:45.020 --> 00:20:46.140
 What is to be accomplished?

00:20:46.320 --> 00:20:46.540
 Nothing.

00:20:47.000 --> 00:20:51.740
 Well, I mean, and that even, that even brings up an interesting parallel here.

00:20:52.000 --> 00:20:54.100
 Because you're the guy that said trolls need Jesus.

00:20:54.100 --> 00:21:09.060
 And, and, and, you know, we can tell plenty of stories of people that have been, um, against the idea of church, against the idea of, of Christ and, and coming in maybe with completely different worldviews, um, that are coming into trolling situations.

00:21:09.060 --> 00:21:18.060
 And because of relationships, because of value, uh, because of respect have actually found their way back to Christ or maybe to Christ for the first time.

00:21:18.480 --> 00:21:26.240
 And so how do we balance, and I don't know that I have the answer for this, but, you know, you're the guy that's punching you in the, or the guy that you punched in the face.

00:21:26.240 --> 00:21:40.180
 The guy that's, that's coming at you, you know, fat youth pastor or whatever, how, how do we balance him with the idea of, hey, we need to respect this guy with the love of Christ so that he can see Christ in us?

00:21:40.420 --> 00:21:42.800
 Uh, I think, man, that's a huge question.

00:21:43.200 --> 00:21:54.560
 Uh, and it's almost, it's almost hard to answer it other than just go case by case because you really kind of have to, because there's a lot of factors that depends on, in my mind, how you respond to that person.

00:21:54.560 --> 00:22:04.380
 You know, for, so take it from, from your own individual point of view, let's say on your personal social media, somebody you get in an argument with, or somebody's getting really rude or belligerent.

00:22:05.000 --> 00:22:08.360
 Um, you know, I always first go, do I really know this person?

00:22:09.400 --> 00:22:10.740
 You know, do I really know them?

00:22:10.800 --> 00:22:12.260
 I have this, these kind of four eyes.

00:22:12.260 --> 00:22:17.680
 It's like identity, intent, interaction, uh, and then instructions.

00:22:18.360 --> 00:22:20.700
 Um, you know, I first want to find out who is this person?

00:22:20.800 --> 00:22:21.480
 Do I know them?

00:22:22.260 --> 00:22:23.640
 And then what is their intention?

00:22:23.640 --> 00:22:35.840
 You know, like, are they really trying to, you know, bring something legitimate to a conversation or are they here just to, you know, insult people and be, be rude, you know, and be trolls and whatever.

00:22:36.020 --> 00:22:37.580
 So that determines a lot of that.

00:22:37.640 --> 00:22:40.080
 And then it's like, what is the interaction like?

00:22:40.120 --> 00:22:41.880
 Are they being, you know, cussing a lot at me?

00:22:41.940 --> 00:22:42.980
 Are they being insulting?

00:22:43.260 --> 00:22:45.540
 Are they asking a legitimate question?

00:22:45.680 --> 00:22:47.980
 You know, determines, should I engage there?

00:22:48.060 --> 00:22:49.380
 Should I get private messages?

00:22:49.380 --> 00:22:52.060
 And then it's like, what am I going to say when I do that?

00:22:52.300 --> 00:22:52.700
 Either way.

00:22:52.980 --> 00:22:55.840
 Is it, hey, here's what we need to do next?

00:22:56.060 --> 00:23:01.880
 Or, um, do I need to communicate that I don't, I didn't appreciate that or do I need to communicate?

00:23:02.120 --> 00:23:05.180
 Hey, here's, you can take a walk, buddy.

00:23:05.300 --> 00:23:07.480
 You know, I'm out, you know, and, or what, what is it I'm going to do?

00:23:08.120 --> 00:23:11.340
 And so I kind of have that kind of rubric trying to go through these steps.

00:23:11.440 --> 00:23:13.900
 And if you really like alliteration there, there, there, there it is for you.

00:23:13.960 --> 00:23:19.100
 If you're a pastor looking for a, a way to give it all one letter to start to teach on or something, there you go.

00:23:19.560 --> 00:23:26.640
 But, um, which would be a great sermon series to hear, you know, is how to, how to be a Christ follower or example of Jesus online.

00:23:26.920 --> 00:23:28.940
 I don't, I don't see that sermon series anywhere.

00:23:29.060 --> 00:23:29.840
 I'd love to see it.

00:23:30.500 --> 00:23:39.460
 Um, so I start with, if I know them and if I know them, I'm probably going to call them out on the rude behavior privately.

00:23:39.800 --> 00:23:57.160
 You know, I may send them a message, but if it's just bled belligerent and it's just really over the top rude and I fear or see others maybe start to pile on, I may do that publicly and just say, Hey man, not, you know, I'm going to behave that way.

00:23:57.160 --> 00:24:02.040
 Or I'll even give a little bit more of the pushback and then like, here's how we need to go forward.

00:24:02.240 --> 00:24:05.660
 Cause you hate to be the one that's always like, here's how we're going to discuss things.

00:24:05.760 --> 00:24:07.660
 It feels very manipulative and controlling.

00:24:07.840 --> 00:24:09.360
 You know, it's like people know how to, should know how to do this.

00:24:09.440 --> 00:24:10.040
 They don't.

00:24:10.720 --> 00:24:21.400
 But, um, you know, honestly, it's once you get to that point where you're trying to control the conversation, I find that most people who came in hot just get hotter and, and it doesn't really help.

00:24:21.820 --> 00:24:24.720
 And so I don't know how much of that you want to do.

00:24:24.720 --> 00:24:35.560
 But again, if you know this person, you might be able to appeal to their humanity a little bit, appeal to your friendship and go, Hey, I'm not sure you quite meant it this way, but here's what I heard.

00:24:36.500 --> 00:24:45.720
 And a lot of times just repeating back what they said to them, it just makes them realize like, wow, did I say, did I really say that?

00:24:45.780 --> 00:24:46.900
 I probably shouldn't have said it that way.

00:24:47.120 --> 00:25:01.440
 So there's a little bit of leeway in that when you know that person, but if you don't know that person and they're like a acquaintance and they come in super hot on a comment section, man, most of the time I'm just like, hide.

00:25:02.380 --> 00:25:04.180
 I'll delete, I'll block them.

00:25:04.180 --> 00:25:11.260
 Even, you know, it's just, you have to like decide these days, who do you really want to allow in your personal space?

00:25:11.700 --> 00:25:14.500
 And if you're talking about your personal accounts here, I'm not talking about the church.

00:25:15.220 --> 00:25:22.220
 If you're talking about your personal accounts here, you have to protect yourself from that being, it'll ruin you.

00:25:22.720 --> 00:25:28.720
 You know, the negativity that will come at you from every direction on who knows what, a picture of your kids drew.

00:25:29.060 --> 00:25:38.620
 I posted about Star Wars or, you know, I put something up about gun control, you know, whatever it is, all of them seem to be controversial and somebody's got a problem.

00:25:38.860 --> 00:25:54.440
 And Jeff, I think a lot of it comes from our, you know, not only just being exhausted, but we're all like, we want to be the person that comes in with the zing or has the different approach or looks really cool because we thought about it from a different angle.

00:25:54.520 --> 00:25:55.800
 Nobody saw it coming from.

00:25:56.200 --> 00:26:01.140
 And we want to have that one comment or that zing or that thing that just makes people go, good one.

00:26:01.260 --> 00:26:08.620
 And I don't know what that is that makes us feel like we're willing to really just hurt people to get that.

00:26:08.860 --> 00:26:11.460
 It's such a cheap, in wrestling, they call it a cheap pop.

00:26:11.820 --> 00:26:15.980
 It's like when you go out to the crowd and go, I'm glad to be here in Dallas, Texas.

00:26:16.220 --> 00:26:18.880
 And they all go, yeah, Dallas, that's where we live.

00:26:18.900 --> 00:26:21.480
 And they all clap really loud, you know, and it's like, it's called cheap pop.

00:26:22.160 --> 00:26:24.700
 So you go out and you look for ways just to get people to cheer for you.

00:26:24.880 --> 00:26:27.200
 And you do it by having that little zinger and it sucks.

00:26:28.080 --> 00:26:30.060
 But that's for your personal stuff.

00:26:30.060 --> 00:26:40.140
 But for the church, I think there's a rubric you have to be careful because you're representing something bigger, especially if you're a comms director, if you're over social media in some way or you're interacting.

00:26:40.400 --> 00:26:45.340
 I think if it's a, again, I think it's the same rubric, but there's a few different steps.

00:26:45.500 --> 00:26:48.440
 Like you would first want to go, does this person go to this church?

00:26:48.980 --> 00:26:50.380
 Are they on our membership role?

00:26:50.860 --> 00:26:51.820
 Do I know them?

00:26:53.040 --> 00:26:54.580
 Are they in leadership anywhere?

00:26:55.100 --> 00:26:57.420
 You know, does anybody know who this person is?

00:26:58.300 --> 00:27:04.080
 And then I want to look at their intent as well and just go, do they really have a grievance?

00:27:04.220 --> 00:27:05.040
 Like, do they have a point?

00:27:05.640 --> 00:27:11.520
 You know, because sometimes in church world, people will come in and go like, hey, so-and-so was really rude to me at the front door.

00:27:12.420 --> 00:27:15.980
 And, you know, I'm not sure I want to come back.

00:27:16.100 --> 00:27:17.300
 And you're like, what?

00:27:17.460 --> 00:27:20.000
 And then you find out that, yeah, that's really what happened.

00:27:20.340 --> 00:27:23.220
 And then you've got to go talk to your greeter or whatever and figure out what happened.

00:27:23.680 --> 00:27:25.500
 And then that's when you say, oh, I'm so sorry.

00:27:26.500 --> 00:27:29.640
 We're going to have discussions and figure out what happened, but please come back, try it again.

00:27:29.780 --> 00:27:31.300
 You know, and you want to have that opportunity.

00:27:31.560 --> 00:27:32.560
 So you don't want to miss that.

00:27:33.220 --> 00:27:38.200
 And so if you're looking at who is coming, who is there, it's like, yeah, this is a legitimate grievance.

00:27:39.160 --> 00:27:48.400
 But if their intent is just to come in hot and I hate church right now and I just want churches to all get uncomfortable and someone to say something uncomfortable on their page, I'm going to cuss, you know, whatever.

00:27:48.600 --> 00:27:51.560
 Obviously, I'm not here to solve any problems with you.

00:27:52.000 --> 00:27:53.340
 I'm here to just to be one.

00:27:53.340 --> 00:28:02.100
 What I found is that it's funny, like I personally, even though it's took me a while to grow the tough skin to be able to do this.

00:28:02.200 --> 00:28:04.460
 And so maybe this is not a good idea or not.

00:28:04.740 --> 00:28:06.540
 I don't delete anything anymore.

00:28:07.000 --> 00:28:12.280
 Like all the 10x negative stuff that I get on YouTube, I leave it.

00:28:12.520 --> 00:28:22.540
 If only so that people can see how I'm responding to the to the negative, to to the harsh, how I'm showing love in those situations.

00:28:22.540 --> 00:28:27.280
 And I've even found in Facebook and Twitter where it's more conversational.

00:28:28.080 --> 00:28:37.260
 You know, I have found that the circle around me actually comes and defends me more than I need to defend myself.

00:28:37.520 --> 00:28:39.680
 And I actually love it.

00:28:39.780 --> 00:28:47.340
 Like I have seen non-Christians defend me in some of my views on Christ when people have attacked me.

00:28:47.580 --> 00:28:54.340
 Literally, they don't believe in Jesus, but they're recognizing, dude, you need to at least respect the guy as an individual.

00:28:54.720 --> 00:29:03.720
 And what happens in those situations when when I'm, you know, I want to say being protected by my posse, although that's kind of what it sounds like a little bit online.

00:29:04.320 --> 00:29:06.040
 I don't have to defend myself.

00:29:06.260 --> 00:29:10.260
 I can actually now take a take a very pastoral role.

00:29:10.720 --> 00:29:13.600
 Hey, man, I'm sorry you feel this way.

00:29:13.660 --> 00:29:16.480
 If there's anything that I've done, would love to talk about it.

00:29:17.320 --> 00:29:20.600
 I'm concerned for you as if I don't have to attack.

00:29:20.900 --> 00:29:22.060
 I don't have to defend.

00:29:22.640 --> 00:29:24.760
 I'm in a position because other people are doing that.

00:29:24.820 --> 00:29:28.520
 I'm in a position where I can care for them or I can can love them.

00:29:28.520 --> 00:29:42.180
 And that's a much better place to be from a ministry perspective than trying to trade punches physically or socially, metaversally, whatever different options that are out there.

00:29:42.180 --> 00:29:43.060
 I think that's great.

00:29:43.600 --> 00:29:46.540
 You know, and honestly, I agree with you.

00:29:46.540 --> 00:29:54.480
 You know, a lot of times I tell people like delete, ban stuff, you know, because it's honestly because churches don't really want to deal with that.

00:29:55.520 --> 00:30:14.200
 And it's an interesting time where we are right now because it does say a lot about your church when you go into their comment section and find them, find how they're interacting with people in the comment section of stuff.

00:30:15.060 --> 00:30:17.280
 If they get comments at all, to be honest.

00:30:17.420 --> 00:30:18.380
 I mean, let's be fair.

00:30:18.460 --> 00:30:21.560
 Facebook isn't trying to help you get in front of anybody these days.

00:30:21.740 --> 00:30:26.720
 So if you've got comments going, that's an accomplishment all in itself.

00:30:27.040 --> 00:30:32.880
 Now, if half of them are negative, how you're dealing with that, people are going to come to the comments and see, oh, 50 comments on this post.

00:30:32.900 --> 00:30:33.600
 What's going on?

00:30:34.480 --> 00:30:39.320
 Well, it's because one person got mad, said something really rude, and five other people piled on.

00:30:39.440 --> 00:30:44.820
 You don't want your people, like, ganging up on somebody or, you know, doing stuff like that.

00:30:45.200 --> 00:30:46.760
 And so you kind of have to be there in the comments.

00:30:46.840 --> 00:30:52.640
 And this is where I go, pastors, this is why you need to realize, like, the digital space, it is your ministry right now.

00:30:52.920 --> 00:31:05.240
 Like, you need to be speaking into how do we as a church interact with each other online, not just getting up at your pulpit and saying, isn't it so bad how terrible everything is online?

00:31:05.580 --> 00:31:07.360
 That's why we don't do anything there.

00:31:07.480 --> 00:31:08.620
 You know, that's not the answer.

00:31:09.060 --> 00:31:10.220
 That's where everybody is.

00:31:10.320 --> 00:31:20.040
 Like, you have to go figure out how to teach your people and shepherd them to be a good example, handle negativity, deal with people, because that's the new market square, right?

00:31:20.120 --> 00:31:25.020
 It's the old, you know, marketplace we used to talk about, the marketplace, which was your business or whatever.

00:31:25.020 --> 00:31:36.600
 Well, if everybody's at home, even more than ever, the marketplace is the online digital communities that we're a part of, which unfortunately is predominantly social media sites.

00:31:37.200 --> 00:31:44.040
 So we're interacting with each other in ways about all kinds of stuff that we have no business talking about as an expert, and we sure do.

00:31:44.360 --> 00:31:54.980
 But it is where pastors really need to step in and teach their congregations what appropriate behavior online looks like for a Christ follower.

00:31:55.940 --> 00:31:59.420
 You know, that's a sermon series we need to have a couple times a year.

00:32:00.960 --> 00:32:05.760
 Because when you get to the point where you realize they're a troll, you're deleting, you're banning, et cetera, yeah, you've lost the connection.

00:32:05.920 --> 00:32:07.420
 There's no opportunities anymore.

00:32:08.440 --> 00:32:12.760
 All you have is how everybody saw you deal with it, and that matters too.

00:32:14.140 --> 00:32:30.620
 So if you've got church members that are, even on their own social media sites, posting memes with politicians that are, you know, getting killed or getting tied up and beat up and, you know, promoting violence or, you know, saying racist stuff or misogynist stuff.

00:32:30.920 --> 00:32:39.460
 As a pastor, it is your role to step in, contact that person and go, hey, I've seen some of the stuff you're putting online.

00:32:39.760 --> 00:32:44.800
 I need to talk with you about what kind of image that puts out about who Jesus is to the world.

00:32:45.840 --> 00:32:47.420
 And you need to step into that.

00:32:48.200 --> 00:32:50.780
 And it doesn't matter which side of the aisle you're on.

00:32:51.120 --> 00:32:54.680
 It cannot contradict with Christian values.

00:32:55.440 --> 00:32:57.140
 And any side can do it.

00:32:57.280 --> 00:32:58.520
 So it doesn't matter what you vote.

00:32:59.160 --> 00:33:04.140
 You've got to stop people from behaving this way that are in your church because it is happening in your church.

00:33:05.180 --> 00:33:09.480
 And, you know, and I think we're really worried about how we as the church are being treated.

00:33:10.060 --> 00:33:14.100
 How is the church treating everybody else or each other for that matter?

00:33:14.880 --> 00:33:22.400
 You know, I think that's something that pastors really need to turn inward and look and see where is my leadership needed in that space.

00:33:22.680 --> 00:33:23.720
 I think that would be very valuable.

00:33:23.720 --> 00:33:29.460
 You're really starting to pull the thread here a little bit of the echo chamber, right?

00:33:30.000 --> 00:33:38.820
 Where, you know, is the church surrounding itself with people that think like the church in digital space?

00:33:39.100 --> 00:33:41.060
 And, you know, I mean, I'm a metaverse guy.

00:33:41.340 --> 00:33:45.260
 And that's why I think it's even a presence there in metaverse and virtual reality.

00:33:45.260 --> 00:33:56.060
 But more tangibly here with social media, are we connecting with people who think differently than us for a purpose of sharing Jesus and connecting them with the kingdom?

00:33:56.060 --> 00:34:10.180
 Or are we surrounding ourselves with people who think like us and we're really missing the larger potential of this social media mission field and the power that we have digitally to connect people to Jesus?

00:34:11.140 --> 00:34:15.660
 You know, often I feel like the greatest, I've said this several times, Seth.

00:34:15.720 --> 00:34:30.220
 I think the greatest resource churches have today are the people that are sitting in our pews, activating them and giving them purpose, helping them get on mission in digital space and social media, physical neighborhoods in many different ways.

00:34:30.280 --> 00:34:37.300
 But there's definitely opportunities for people to connect and use whatever social influence they have for the kingdom.

00:34:37.940 --> 00:34:46.980
 But to your point, I think that we're missing it because we're working hard as a church to try to control environments that we really shouldn't control.

00:34:46.980 --> 00:34:53.620
 We should be releasing them and allowing the world to come in and connect with us in these digital spaces.

00:34:54.120 --> 00:34:55.440
 How much are you feeling that tension?

00:34:55.560 --> 00:34:56.940
 Or what are you thinking about?

00:34:57.000 --> 00:34:58.580
 Well, you remind me of this.

00:34:59.260 --> 00:35:01.000
 You know, my company is Church Comm Team.

00:35:01.240 --> 00:35:04.780
 We help churches with communications and do it all for them.

00:35:04.960 --> 00:35:09.500
 You know, and really what we focus on a lot is this internal communication, how things work, systems, all that good stuff.

00:35:10.020 --> 00:35:13.600
 One of the things we work, we do is we manage social media for these, for churches.

00:35:14.000 --> 00:35:15.460
 And I'll tell you, it's interesting.

00:35:16.380 --> 00:35:22.100
 I've had churches tell me one way or the other how they want to deal with reels on Instagram and TikTok.

00:35:23.820 --> 00:35:28.000
 One of our clients didn't want to do reels.

00:35:28.160 --> 00:35:30.660
 And the reason is because we were putting a sermon series on reels.

00:35:31.320 --> 00:35:33.820
 They were getting a lot of negativity about it.

00:35:34.380 --> 00:35:39.700
 Because reels and TikTok, they get you in front of people that don't know you.

00:35:40.420 --> 00:35:43.760
 They put you in front of people that have no idea who you are.

00:35:43.760 --> 00:35:50.560
 And when your content hits their for you page or it hits their feed, they interact with it raw.

00:35:51.360 --> 00:36:01.120
 And based on what they're feeling at that moment, based on who they are, their experiences, their experience with the church, and here's this random pastor telling them about who knows what.

00:36:02.400 --> 00:36:05.860
 And so we've had churches actually say, I don't want to do reels anymore.

00:36:07.300 --> 00:36:09.100
 And, you know, I understand.

00:36:09.400 --> 00:36:12.980
 Like, if you don't have – so I'm not knocking that church, but I understand.

00:36:13.200 --> 00:36:21.840
 Like, if you don't have someone who's in the comments, whose job it is to, like, interact with people and handle these kinds of things and really be a pastor there,

00:36:23.140 --> 00:36:26.300
 then it can get off the rails and you don't even know it.

00:36:27.000 --> 00:36:29.720
 And then you're like, why is my church on the news all of a sudden?

00:36:29.980 --> 00:36:32.360
 Oh, it's because this thing happened because something blew up in the comments.

00:36:32.400 --> 00:36:33.720
 Like, what?

00:36:34.340 --> 00:36:35.300
 We didn't have anybody on that?

00:36:35.380 --> 00:36:38.480
 You know, it's like, if you're going to do that, you do need somebody paying attention.

00:36:38.480 --> 00:36:53.000
 But at the same time, it's kind of sad to miss, you know, the absolute definition of a mission field given to us on a silver platter and go, no, thank you, you know, with that social media space.

00:36:53.300 --> 00:36:55.220
 And so I am seeing that.

00:36:55.300 --> 00:36:56.900
 And that tension is there.

00:36:57.000 --> 00:36:58.040
 It's like, what do we do?

00:36:58.840 --> 00:37:04.220
 And I think, again, it's that mind shift of pastors understanding from the top down that this is part of your ministry.

00:37:04.680 --> 00:37:08.340
 This is not what you do to show what your ministry is.

00:37:08.880 --> 00:37:09.940
 This is your ministry.

00:37:10.160 --> 00:37:11.100
 The people are there.

00:37:11.860 --> 00:37:13.120
 And you need staff for it.

00:37:13.160 --> 00:37:13.880
 You need budget for it.

00:37:13.920 --> 00:37:15.660
 You need to, you know, get people involved in it.

00:37:16.060 --> 00:37:17.980
 So I'm seeing that a lot.

00:37:17.980 --> 00:37:21.600
 And honestly, the algorithm, you mentioned the echo chamber a couple times.

00:37:21.700 --> 00:37:25.240
 The algorithm of all these platforms exists.

00:37:25.380 --> 00:37:31.540
 I mean, it is literally, it is mathematical confirmation bias at its finest.

00:37:32.400 --> 00:37:38.420
 The algorithm exists to show you what you want to see and what you interact with.

00:37:38.880 --> 00:37:46.560
 And so if you are clicking things, asking for things, commenting on things, then you're going to get more of that.

00:37:46.560 --> 00:37:51.220
 And what I like about TikTok versus, like, Facebook and all those others is how that algorithm works.

00:37:51.380 --> 00:37:55.000
 Actually, TikTok will show you the type of content.

00:37:55.140 --> 00:38:03.100
 So if I like and interact with, like, food, you know, TikToks, somebody's cooking, it won't show me that creator's food all the time.

00:38:03.180 --> 00:38:04.800
 It'll show me a whole bunch of new ones.

00:38:04.940 --> 00:38:08.620
 Like, here, oh, you like the guy with a pot is what it's called.

00:38:08.680 --> 00:38:09.220
 He has a knife.

00:38:09.260 --> 00:38:09.860
 He's out in the woods.

00:38:09.960 --> 00:38:10.320
 He's cooking.

00:38:10.960 --> 00:38:12.360
 And he's on a stump.

00:38:12.460 --> 00:38:14.740
 He's cooking fresh stuff in a pot in a metal skillet.

00:38:14.780 --> 00:38:15.220
 It's awesome.

00:38:15.460 --> 00:38:17.220
 It's all outdoors, open flame.

00:38:17.860 --> 00:38:19.440
 And I'm learning so much about food.

00:38:19.480 --> 00:38:20.120
 And I love food.

00:38:20.820 --> 00:38:23.480
 So, I mean, obviously, I'm a fat youth pastor.

00:38:23.980 --> 00:38:26.800
 So, you know, so I'm learning so much.

00:38:26.820 --> 00:38:27.360
 So I like that.

00:38:27.560 --> 00:38:28.720
 So I'll see that food one.

00:38:29.520 --> 00:38:32.860
 And then it'll show me, like, four or five other food TikTok things.

00:38:32.860 --> 00:38:34.060
 And if I interact, it gives me some more.

00:38:34.780 --> 00:38:44.960
 With Instagram and Facebook, it's like if my crazy uncle posts some random meme and that makes me mad and I comment on it, they're like, oh, he wants to hear more from crazy uncle.

00:38:45.440 --> 00:38:48.140
 And then I start seeing all of crazy uncle's posts.

00:38:48.300 --> 00:38:50.140
 And then we start getting in fights all the time.

00:38:51.180 --> 00:38:58.140
 You know, and it's like that's kind of a difference where, you know, the shift has happened in how those algorithms work.

00:38:58.220 --> 00:39:05.880
 And so when you've got churches that are, like, trying to figure out how to get in front of people, you know, it's TikTok and Reels and that sort of stuff and YouTube.

00:39:06.260 --> 00:39:08.300
 Those are your places to go do that.

00:39:08.380 --> 00:39:13.480
 And then for your own people now, we're shifting down to, like, Facebook's not really doing that unless you're paying for it.

00:39:13.520 --> 00:39:14.540
 And then we don't even know.

00:39:15.040 --> 00:39:20.140
 So Facebook and Instagram and Twitter and all those others, it's kind of teaching to your people.

00:39:20.260 --> 00:39:24.360
 So when you get negativity in different places, it's different types of negativity.

00:39:24.560 --> 00:39:29.180
 So you have to learn how to deal with that different type of negativity in those different types of places.

00:39:29.180 --> 00:39:34.620
 So churches that are not staffing for this, like, everything I just said to you probably makes you go, oh, my gosh.

00:39:35.540 --> 00:39:39.440
 Oh, man, we have so much to do, you know, because, yeah, it's a big place.

00:39:39.760 --> 00:39:40.680
 Internet's a big place.

00:39:41.360 --> 00:39:42.620
 And there's a lot happening there.

00:39:42.840 --> 00:39:49.320
 So I feel like the online negativity there is the algorithm is what's going to really it's not your friend.

00:39:49.940 --> 00:39:51.160
 It is really not your friend.

00:39:51.160 --> 00:39:56.800
 It comes off as like this, hey, you can post this one little thing and it's going to go viral.

00:39:57.580 --> 00:40:00.140
 And the assumption is, and everyone's going to love it.

00:40:00.220 --> 00:40:03.140
 But most of the time, if it goes viral, it's because everybody hates it.

00:40:04.560 --> 00:40:06.660
 And that's something churches have to know.

00:40:07.100 --> 00:40:14.540
 And if you're not willing to deal with that, you're not going to be able to do all these things with social media.

00:40:15.180 --> 00:40:17.360
 Which then gets to this point.

00:40:17.840 --> 00:40:20.940
 How do we love people on social media that don't love us?

00:40:21.580 --> 00:40:27.220
 If we're trying to get away from the echo chamber, that's going to get us connected with people with differentiating views.

00:40:27.220 --> 00:40:34.880
 You're telling the story of the church that's getting hate on TikTok because of, you know, the reels or whatever.

00:40:35.220 --> 00:40:36.560
 And we want that.

00:40:36.620 --> 00:40:37.780
 We don't want to run away from that.

00:40:37.840 --> 00:40:38.640
 We want that feedback.

00:40:38.840 --> 00:40:40.160
 We want to build that relationship.

00:40:41.000 --> 00:40:44.160
 How do we love people that don't love us?

00:40:44.580 --> 00:40:47.380
 Well, I think first, you have to give up the right to be right.

00:40:48.820 --> 00:40:58.800
 And in any good relationship, there's going to be dynamics and roles and, you know, things like we're the teacher, you're the student.

00:40:59.020 --> 00:41:00.220
 You know, there's that kind of relationship.

00:41:00.380 --> 00:41:03.060
 There's father, son, mother, daughter, whatever.

00:41:03.320 --> 00:41:06.520
 All that brother-sister types of relationships you can have.

00:41:06.600 --> 00:41:19.460
 And with the church online, I think the only real way you can convey love and care is by sharing stories of love and care.

00:41:21.040 --> 00:41:27.580
 You can't, you can put teaching out there for those who are your people who want to be taught.

00:41:27.940 --> 00:41:31.720
 You can put sermons out there, Bible studies, that sort of thing.

00:41:31.800 --> 00:41:35.180
 You can do all that and you need to because your people need that.

00:41:35.340 --> 00:41:37.000
 It's a way of discipling online.

00:41:37.400 --> 00:41:37.840
 It's valuable.

00:41:38.340 --> 00:41:40.720
 And it's awesome for SEO, right?

00:41:41.080 --> 00:41:43.000
 So, it's good to do that anyway.

00:41:43.680 --> 00:41:46.760
 But for the people who you don't interact with, what do they need?

00:41:47.120 --> 00:41:49.240
 They need to know that you're not nuts.

00:41:49.700 --> 00:41:51.620
 They need to know that you're not mean.

00:41:52.180 --> 00:41:54.780
 They need to know that you love them where they are.

00:41:55.520 --> 00:42:00.040
 That your first goal with them is not to change everything about them.

00:42:00.620 --> 00:42:06.000
 I mean, can you imagine what it's like to an LGBTQ person from that community, a trans person,

00:42:06.860 --> 00:42:10.240
 who's wondering if they're welcome at your church?

00:42:10.600 --> 00:42:12.380
 Or not even, they're not even wondering that.

00:42:12.480 --> 00:42:14.620
 They're wondering like, why should I give a care about this?

00:42:14.640 --> 00:42:16.100
 Because I'm obviously not welcome.

00:42:16.660 --> 00:42:22.080
 They think my whole life and everything that I am is wrong and they're going to want me to change.

00:42:22.580 --> 00:42:23.720
 And they don't want to do that.

00:42:24.200 --> 00:42:28.280
 And so, the first thing you hit them with is how God changes lives.

00:42:29.420 --> 00:42:30.480
 Well, they don't want that.

00:42:31.040 --> 00:42:32.080
 They don't want to be changed.

00:42:32.680 --> 00:42:33.800
 You know, it's like, that's okay.

00:42:33.900 --> 00:42:34.860
 Well, immediately, thank you.

00:42:34.960 --> 00:42:35.480
 Immediately, no.

00:42:36.320 --> 00:42:38.520
 And it's like, we're not finding that message.

00:42:38.600 --> 00:42:39.220
 What is the message?

00:42:39.640 --> 00:42:45.460
 The message is, hey, you want to come over for dinner with no strings attached.

00:42:45.560 --> 00:42:46.760
 Do you just want to be friends?

00:42:46.760 --> 00:42:54.820
 And when we look at church content, especially on social media content, what many churches want is they want you to come to their events.

00:42:54.940 --> 00:43:01.380
 They want you to come over to their house, to Bible studies, to things that they're doing.

00:43:02.040 --> 00:43:07.500
 And we're not that interested in going and having dinner with them where they are.

00:43:07.680 --> 00:43:11.900
 You know, we're not showing like how we care about them in our content.

00:43:12.660 --> 00:43:16.080
 We're not praying for them, you know, that we can see online.

00:43:16.080 --> 00:43:19.100
 We're not highlighting them without strings attached.

00:43:19.920 --> 00:43:24.800
 You know, when we look at our communities, we can say, where are some of those businesses that we want to promote?

00:43:24.940 --> 00:43:26.000
 Like, there's a business that's hurting.

00:43:26.100 --> 00:43:27.060
 Let's all go help them out.

00:43:27.120 --> 00:43:28.240
 Let's all go eat there today.

00:43:28.380 --> 00:43:33.700
 You know, that kind of stuff that churches can do that just promotes unity in the community.

00:43:34.120 --> 00:43:37.840
 And, you know, I think that's a big part of what we're not doing.

00:43:37.960 --> 00:43:41.760
 We think social media is for us to get something from people with.

00:43:43.100 --> 00:43:46.700
 And it's really for us to give things away to people.

00:43:48.000 --> 00:43:52.920
 And we're not giving away some of our best stuff, which is we do love people.

00:43:53.260 --> 00:43:54.840
 We do care about people.

00:43:55.160 --> 00:43:56.600
 We do help people.

00:43:57.920 --> 00:44:00.580
 And we're not telling anybody about it when we do it.

00:44:01.880 --> 00:44:02.840
 So they don't know.

00:44:03.120 --> 00:44:08.300
 They have one narrative, and that is the, you know, the angry people on TikTok who hate the church.

00:44:09.380 --> 00:44:11.020
 You know, I see those all the time.

00:44:11.460 --> 00:44:12.420
 Unity in the community.

00:44:12.700 --> 00:44:13.880
 Well said with that.

00:44:13.880 --> 00:44:19.740
 So much of how the church is using this social media is very much a come and see.

00:44:20.260 --> 00:44:21.320
 Come and see what we're doing.

00:44:22.180 --> 00:44:27.780
 Even the church that, you know, is posting the teaching clip.

00:44:28.160 --> 00:44:33.660
 Yeah, I mean, that's a, you know, maybe it's meant to bring out a reaction.

00:44:33.660 --> 00:44:38.080
 And with community, I think there's a potential to follow through on that.

00:44:38.200 --> 00:44:41.300
 But it's still, is that this is who we are.

00:44:41.400 --> 00:44:42.080
 This is who we are.

00:44:42.180 --> 00:44:43.220
 This is who we are.

00:44:43.720 --> 00:44:59.440
 Instead of positioning the church, maybe asking questions instead of making statements, using question marks instead of periods, getting off the platform and letting someone else get on the platform and starting to ask, you know, how can we help you?

00:44:59.700 --> 00:45:00.420
 Who are you?

00:45:00.500 --> 00:45:02.420
 I'll tell you a church that's doing it really, really well.

00:45:03.000 --> 00:45:07.140
 I just interviewed him on, it's Crossroads Church.

00:45:08.000 --> 00:45:09.240
 Kyle Ransom is the-

00:45:09.240 --> 00:45:09.600
 Cincinnati?

00:45:10.120 --> 00:45:10.920
 Yeah, Ohio.

00:45:11.100 --> 00:45:13.040
 Yeah, they've got campuses everywhere.

00:45:13.520 --> 00:45:17.840
 They have an anywhere church, which is their online anywhere church.

00:45:18.040 --> 00:45:20.000
 And he's basically the pastor over that.

00:45:20.100 --> 00:45:20.540
 It's Kyle Ransom.

00:45:20.620 --> 00:45:23.680
 It's actually my co-host on the Seminary Far Knocks podcast.

00:45:23.940 --> 00:45:25.460
 Megan, it's her brother-in-law.

00:45:26.420 --> 00:45:26.720
 Oh, no kidding.

00:45:26.900 --> 00:45:30.440
 And so, but man, go to their, go to Crossroads Church.

00:45:30.780 --> 00:45:31.840
 Is it Crossroads Church?

00:45:31.940 --> 00:45:32.300
 I forget.

00:45:32.780 --> 00:45:33.040
 I wrote it.

00:45:33.100 --> 00:45:33.900
 Crossroads.net.

00:45:34.480 --> 00:45:35.620
 Yeah, Crossroads.net.

00:45:35.820 --> 00:45:37.340
 And go to their church anywhere.

00:45:38.140 --> 00:45:41.140
 Oh my gosh, you want to find out how to really disciple people online?

00:45:41.740 --> 00:45:45.720
 That's the best I've seen of anybody, of what they're doing.

00:45:45.820 --> 00:45:51.220
 Their content, their style, just how much they're doing, how much they've dedicated to it.

00:45:51.220 --> 00:45:55.800
 If you really want a 101 course in how to do that really well, they're awesome.

00:45:55.960 --> 00:45:59.920
 And of course, I know you're doing a lot of great stuff too, you know, with churches.

00:46:00.140 --> 00:46:03.260
 And so, you guys are listening to this and haven't worked with Jeff.

00:46:03.360 --> 00:46:03.800
 Get with Jeff.

00:46:04.120 --> 00:46:06.520
 Oh, that was so, so, so sweet.

00:46:06.600 --> 00:46:07.100
 Yeah, totally.

00:46:07.800 --> 00:46:09.320
 But no, Crossroads, man, you're right.

00:46:09.520 --> 00:46:10.760
 They're nailing it.

00:46:10.940 --> 00:46:14.640
 They are really taking advantage of the digital.

00:46:14.920 --> 00:46:20.160
 They're recognizing that you have to do something different to really reach and connect digitally

00:46:20.160 --> 00:46:21.140
 than the physical.

00:46:21.140 --> 00:46:25.820
 And they've, they've always, I say always, especially in the COVID season, they've been

00:46:25.820 --> 00:46:32.880
 able to separate digital and physical, not, not lessening physical, not devaluing digital,

00:46:33.020 --> 00:46:34.360
 but allowing those two.

00:46:34.520 --> 00:46:38.840
 And even to the point of, you know, I've met Kyle once or twice, but even to the point where

00:46:38.840 --> 00:46:46.480
 they've got a guy whose literal job is to pastor the digital church, not to drive those people

00:46:46.480 --> 00:46:52.680
 to attend a physical location, but to do ministry, to disciple people in those spaces, utilizing

00:46:52.680 --> 00:46:53.320
 those tools.

00:46:54.100 --> 00:46:55.700
 Um, I'm going to start crying over here.

00:46:55.780 --> 00:46:57.740
 I mean, that, that's, that's, that's just a beautiful thing.

00:46:57.740 --> 00:46:58.400
 It is beautiful.

00:46:58.400 --> 00:47:01.220
 When I was interviewing him, I was, I teared up a few times.

00:47:01.220 --> 00:47:04.500
 It's just like, man, I'm so glad.

00:47:04.580 --> 00:47:05.780
 I'm so thankful for you.

00:47:05.820 --> 00:47:07.060
 Cause I didn't think anybody was doing this.

00:47:07.880 --> 00:47:10.460
 You know, I think there's people trying, but I didn't think there's anybody out there

00:47:10.460 --> 00:47:15.480
 doing it as well already as you, you know, and just the, the love that he has for his

00:47:15.480 --> 00:47:15.860
 people.

00:47:15.860 --> 00:47:17.880
 It's so palpable when you're talking to him.

00:47:18.780 --> 00:47:19.960
 Oh, it's so good.

00:47:20.160 --> 00:47:24.080
 And, and I think that's one of the things that as a church pastor, you know, you're,

00:47:24.100 --> 00:47:26.980
 you're looking at like, how can we reach this next generation?

00:47:27.260 --> 00:47:29.880
 Well, they're not going to come to your church.

00:47:30.280 --> 00:47:31.900
 You're going to have to go to them.

00:47:32.480 --> 00:47:37.120
 You're going to have to meet them in digital spaces and you're going to have to go to metaverse

00:47:37.120 --> 00:47:43.040
 or chat room kind of, which somebody said that metaverse is now like the, if you take away

00:47:43.040 --> 00:47:46.800
 the entertainment aspect of it, it's like the creepy version of AOL chat rooms.

00:47:47.920 --> 00:47:49.140
 Oh, 100%.

00:47:49.140 --> 00:47:55.340
 VR chat is the equivalent of AOL chat 1990 chat rooms.

00:47:55.460 --> 00:47:59.620
 It's, it's ugly, but it's like, it's, it's beta, you know, everything's being, we're just

00:47:59.620 --> 00:48:00.540
 trying stuff, you know?

00:48:00.600 --> 00:48:01.600
 So of course, yeah.

00:48:01.860 --> 00:48:05.260
 I mean, now we look back on AOL stuff and we're like, yeah, it's kind of weird.

00:48:05.300 --> 00:48:06.620
 You could just chat with people.

00:48:06.620 --> 00:48:10.780
 It was like, yeah, now we're going to be able to talk to them face to face with a computer

00:48:10.780 --> 00:48:11.280
 avatar.

00:48:11.280 --> 00:48:13.940
 It's like, yeah, yeah, that's, that's cool.

00:48:14.080 --> 00:48:16.780
 No, it's also weird, but we'll figure it out.

00:48:16.960 --> 00:48:17.580
 We'll figure it out.

00:48:17.660 --> 00:48:20.240
 You know, it's, it's, it's got a lot of positives to it.

00:48:21.500 --> 00:48:27.920
 You know, I, I'm, I'm concerned, you know, where the church is, you know, the, we have

00:48:27.920 --> 00:48:28.660
 a PR problem.

00:48:29.580 --> 00:48:34.400
 There's a lot of things going on, you know, and, and part of the issue with loving people

00:48:34.400 --> 00:48:41.960
 well online is getting through that first barrier of what, how do they feel about the

00:48:41.960 --> 00:48:48.060
 church, you know, have, and, and I think for us, we kind of just need to take our medicine

00:48:48.060 --> 00:48:53.100
 a little bit, you know, let them scream at us, you know, like you said, leave the comments

00:48:53.100 --> 00:48:57.260
 up, um, put the stuff out there and let people yell at us.

00:48:57.340 --> 00:49:04.980
 And, and when, maybe it'll be cathartic for them, who knows, but we need to be visible

00:49:04.980 --> 00:49:11.660
 saying, we're acknowledging the issue, you know, it's when you, you shut those voices

00:49:11.660 --> 00:49:17.440
 down or you don't engage and you just kind of disappear or it, it communicates that you

00:49:17.440 --> 00:49:18.060
 don't care.

00:49:18.180 --> 00:49:20.460
 It communicates that you don't think there's anything wrong.

00:49:21.300 --> 00:49:23.120
 Uh, it's their problem, not your problem.

00:49:23.240 --> 00:49:28.800
 And it just communicates this disconnect that's only growing, uh, especially online because

00:49:28.800 --> 00:49:30.640
 that's where they're yelling about it.

00:49:30.940 --> 00:49:36.320
 And the church is not there dealing with it because we don't want to deal with the negative.

00:49:37.340 --> 00:49:42.440
 And, and, you know, I think we need to kind of take our licks a little bit because yes,

00:49:42.780 --> 00:49:45.400
 we've covered up sexual assault.

00:49:45.700 --> 00:49:47.740
 Yes, we've incubated misogyny.

00:49:47.880 --> 00:49:52.880
 Yes, we have, uh, you know, made it okay for racism to exist in some places.

00:49:53.020 --> 00:50:00.140
 You know, we've, we've done some things that we need to at least acknowledge could be possibly

00:50:00.140 --> 00:50:01.060
 a problem.

00:50:01.580 --> 00:50:08.900
 And if we can't do that, then it looks like, man, if you don't want to be part of the solution,

00:50:09.940 --> 00:50:11.500
 they're, they're saying, see ya.

00:50:12.900 --> 00:50:15.840
 And it's, it's just something we're going to have to talk about.

00:50:16.340 --> 00:50:21.000
 And I think some of it is like, let them yell at us, let them cuss at us, let us, I mean,

00:50:21.020 --> 00:50:27.960
 if you can stomach it, you know, it's just something I think it's a, it's a ministry to the people.

00:50:28.520 --> 00:50:31.560
 Well, let me ask this because I mean, that, that sets this up perfectly.

00:50:32.260 --> 00:50:36.060
 How does the church not be so defensive?

00:50:36.280 --> 00:50:41.520
 How do we as Christians learn to not be defensive in these situations?

00:50:42.160 --> 00:50:52.680
 Um, by defensive, we, we intentionally or unintentionally really push away some of these people that are, are, are, are wanting to ask questions.

00:50:52.680 --> 00:50:53.680
 You know, it's, it's interesting.

00:50:53.740 --> 00:50:54.560
 We're talking metaverse.

00:50:54.560 --> 00:51:04.780
 Like I've even had, had, uh, people in the metaverse tell me that are attending church in virtual reality, that they find it's much easier and safer.

00:51:04.860 --> 00:51:15.780
 De-churched, um, agnostics, atheists by attending church in virtual reality, they're able to get their questions answered and dialogue in safe environments.

00:51:15.920 --> 00:51:19.340
 And they've told me, yeah, we could never do this on social media.

00:51:19.440 --> 00:51:26.180
 We can never do this in physical church, but virtual reality, they, we have not experienced that defensiveness for whatever reason.

00:51:26.780 --> 00:51:33.160
 Um, so how do we, how do we set down the defensive approach and engage in more communication?

00:51:33.720 --> 00:51:33.920
 Hmm.

00:51:34.000 --> 00:51:34.360
 It's hard.

00:51:34.420 --> 00:51:35.420
 It's hard to answer that question.

00:51:35.700 --> 00:51:54.140
 Um, I'm not sure that anyone really knows other than giving up the ability to say that I'm right, giving up the goal of like changing someone's mind on the spot before they know you, before you, they know you care about them.

00:51:54.640 --> 00:51:59.620
 Um, was it Maya Angelou that said, nobody cares what you know until they know that you care?

00:52:00.820 --> 00:52:02.260
 Um, I think that was her.

00:52:02.380 --> 00:52:02.820
 I'm not sure.

00:52:02.820 --> 00:52:10.100
 Um, I feel like we as Christians are more concerned with winning than winning hearts.

00:52:11.120 --> 00:52:14.420
 And I think there's a big difference in how we approach that.

00:52:14.500 --> 00:52:20.360
 When you see people online that have said, it's not as scary to discuss this stuff.

00:52:21.260 --> 00:52:29.980
 Um, somebody on the other end there has either been trained or also been hurt and understands that I'm not trying to win an argument.

00:52:30.360 --> 00:52:37.480
 I'm just trying to win your heart so that you're open a little bit more to what Jesus has for you.

00:52:38.440 --> 00:52:50.260
 And I think that the church has given up that mission in large part due to the fact that we have gotten in bed with politics and other things that we think we can, that can help us win.

00:52:51.140 --> 00:52:55.060
 And, um, I mean, I mean, this happens in my family.

00:52:55.220 --> 00:53:00.120
 Um, you know, I have family that, that is, um, I have a transgender nephew.

00:53:01.580 --> 00:53:08.960
 And, um, you know, other of my family, very, very difficult conversation, very difficult to deal with that.

00:53:09.060 --> 00:53:10.720
 You know, like, we don't know how to deal with that.

00:53:11.160 --> 00:53:11.840
 You know, we don't know.

00:53:13.220 --> 00:53:28.460
 And I'll tell you what doesn't work is sending him Bible verses about how that's sinful or praying for him, uh, that God would change his heart.

00:53:29.760 --> 00:53:32.020
 Uh, to him, you know, so he could hear it.

00:53:32.480 --> 00:53:38.660
 Um, you know, it's like that, that kind of stuff we think is, is doing the right thing.

00:53:38.880 --> 00:53:43.500
 And technically, theologically, you might be right.

00:53:44.620 --> 00:53:49.340
 But that's a bad approach because it doesn't consider the individual as a person.

00:53:49.440 --> 00:53:50.540
 You're not trying to win their heart.

00:53:50.640 --> 00:53:56.500
 You're not trying to help them see the beauty, grace, and the love of Christ.

00:53:56.640 --> 00:54:07.200
 And I got to be honest, Jeff, at the end of the day, whether or not a person is straight or trans is less important than whether or not a person is a Christ,

00:54:07.200 --> 00:54:09.760
 as a believer in Christ, a follower of Christ.

00:54:10.080 --> 00:54:13.940
 If they follow Christ, the Spirit should convict them.

00:54:14.260 --> 00:54:15.480
 The Spirit will lead them.

00:54:15.780 --> 00:54:18.280
 It's really not your problem.

00:54:19.200 --> 00:54:23.820
 And that's, that's hard for us to accept because we're supposed to look out for our brother.

00:54:23.920 --> 00:54:25.100
 We're supposed to care for our neighbor.

00:54:25.240 --> 00:54:25.860
 We're supposed to do that.

00:54:26.260 --> 00:54:30.640
 But that doesn't mean you're supposed to, like, grab them and hold them down and control them.

00:54:31.300 --> 00:54:36.040
 I mean, you can legislate anything into any, you can handmade tale anything.

00:54:36.200 --> 00:54:37.880
 You know, if you had enough power.

00:54:38.080 --> 00:54:41.020
 But that doesn't mean people are going to love you for it and thank you for it.

00:54:41.020 --> 00:54:42.820
 Thank you for saving us from ourselves.

00:54:42.980 --> 00:54:43.760
 Nobody's going to do that.

00:54:44.200 --> 00:54:48.020
 And when we take that approach, all we're doing is pushing people away.

00:54:48.980 --> 00:54:54.260
 It seems that the rhetoric has gotten more to that than, how can I love my neighbor?

00:54:54.400 --> 00:54:55.360
 How can I care for them?

00:54:55.420 --> 00:54:56.580
 How can I show them they matter?

00:54:56.720 --> 00:54:57.580
 How can I see them?

00:54:57.680 --> 00:55:02.740
 How can I show them that Jesus is not trying to push you away?

00:55:04.140 --> 00:55:07.780
 Let Him deal with that issue in their life.

00:55:08.200 --> 00:55:19.480
 Because when we start focusing on that, I got to be honest, it just, it screams to me that we have completely misunderstood the whole plank-eye verse about the board in our own eye.

00:55:19.560 --> 00:55:23.880
 You know, that we've started to assume that we don't have things we got to work on.

00:55:24.420 --> 00:55:27.680
 And, you know, it just, it lacks a humility that comes with that.

00:55:28.560 --> 00:55:30.260
 And just, there's so much there.

00:55:30.360 --> 00:55:33.120
 We're trying to just prove people wrong and win arguments.

00:55:33.440 --> 00:55:36.020
 And I'll tell you, if you want to prove somebody wrong, prove this wrong.

00:55:36.340 --> 00:55:37.700
 This is a common phrase on TikTok.

00:55:38.240 --> 00:55:40.140
 There's no hate like Christian love.

00:55:41.280 --> 00:55:42.260
 That's what they say.

00:55:43.120 --> 00:55:44.580
 I've seen that a million times.

00:55:44.640 --> 00:55:45.460
 You want to prove something wrong?

00:55:45.560 --> 00:55:46.280
 Proof that wrong.

00:55:46.740 --> 00:55:47.080
 Dang.

00:55:47.240 --> 00:55:48.260
 I hadn't heard that one yet.

00:55:48.760 --> 00:55:51.760
 There's no hate like Christian love.

00:55:53.340 --> 00:55:55.640
 Man, I actually have no idea.

00:55:55.780 --> 00:55:56.740
 I'll ask one more question.

00:55:56.820 --> 00:55:59.700
 By the way, it wasn't Maya Angelou.

00:56:00.040 --> 00:56:01.360
 It was Theodore Roosevelt.

00:56:01.640 --> 00:56:02.260
 Oh, is it Roosevelt?

00:56:02.400 --> 00:56:02.560
 Okay.

00:56:02.940 --> 00:56:09.840
 You know, I do not have the Theodore Roosevelt bobblehead on my desk, but I can once again show the Ronald Reagan at this time.

00:56:11.020 --> 00:56:15.760
 Hey, I'm just, there's no hate like Christian love.

00:56:16.440 --> 00:56:16.760
 All right.

00:56:16.780 --> 00:56:17.620
 So let me ask this.

00:56:17.700 --> 00:56:19.100
 Let's land the plane on this one.

00:56:19.360 --> 00:56:19.560
 Okay.

00:56:20.460 --> 00:56:20.920
 All right.

00:56:20.920 --> 00:56:23.820
 So, all right.

00:56:23.880 --> 00:56:27.140
 Maybe I'm the guy that is showing more hate than love.

00:56:27.620 --> 00:56:31.520
 Maybe I'm the Christian that's embodying that statement.

00:56:31.940 --> 00:56:33.780
 There's no hate like Christian love.

00:56:34.300 --> 00:56:34.700
 Okay.

00:56:34.860 --> 00:56:35.840
 I got to change.

00:56:36.400 --> 00:56:36.720
 How?

00:56:37.060 --> 00:56:46.860
 I would start by doing social media fast, going straight into the word, and trying to remember how much you've been saved from.

00:56:49.620 --> 00:56:58.620
 If you can't start there, get away from the things that are probably fueling that feeling, and you can feel it.

00:56:59.320 --> 00:56:59.880
 You know, there's time.

00:56:59.960 --> 00:57:03.020
 I recently deleted my Twitter account.

00:57:03.760 --> 00:57:04.340
 No kidding.

00:57:04.440 --> 00:57:05.160
 Just deleted it.

00:57:05.640 --> 00:57:06.420
 I'm not going back.

00:57:08.300 --> 00:57:10.640
 I'd delete Facebook too if I could, but I work there.

00:57:10.900 --> 00:57:15.680
 I don't work for Facebook, but I work, you know, with churches and have to help with Facebook, and that's where a lot of stuff is.

00:57:15.740 --> 00:57:16.900
 So, it's a necessary evil.

00:57:17.240 --> 00:57:18.700
 I think a lot of people feel that way.

00:57:18.700 --> 00:57:34.940
 But if you can get away from some of these places, I think tailoring your feed with, you know, choosing who you see, unfollowing people, unfriending people even, create lists on Facebook, create lists on Instagram, on Twitter.

00:57:35.440 --> 00:57:41.800
 Use those features to tailor an experience that is a life-giving and positive experience.

00:57:42.460 --> 00:57:47.520
 Stop reading the news on especially Twitter.

00:57:48.160 --> 00:57:49.880
 And I just feel like there's so much there.

00:57:50.040 --> 00:57:56.160
 Like, you have to clean up what you're allowing in.

00:57:57.520 --> 00:58:08.000
 You have to figure out what are those things that trigger your anger, that trigger your – that fuel that fire of, I've got to go get somebody.

00:58:08.000 --> 00:58:20.020
 You know, and I've got those things too, and I'm certainly not innocent of, you know, flying off the handle and handling things poorly or, you know, spouting off on social media into the – you know, yelling into the void.

00:58:20.320 --> 00:58:25.600
 I do that too, and I notice it, and that's when I go, you know what, I've got to get this app off my phone.

00:58:25.680 --> 00:58:27.600
 I had Facebook deleted off my phone for a while.

00:58:28.780 --> 00:58:32.920
 You know, I've set limits on TikTok and things at times when I feel like it's just getting bad.

00:58:33.120 --> 00:58:38.140
 You have to monitor yourself because we both know the social media companies, they're not going to do it for you.

00:58:38.300 --> 00:58:38.940
 They don't want to.

00:58:39.580 --> 00:58:45.260
 Their algorithm exists to keep you on the platform as long as possible so they can sell things to you.

00:58:45.660 --> 00:58:46.780
 They're not going to try to help.

00:58:46.840 --> 00:58:48.080
 They may give you these tools and stuff.

00:58:48.160 --> 00:58:48.920
 Hey, you want to quit?

00:58:49.360 --> 00:58:50.460
 Real small button.

00:58:51.120 --> 00:58:51.920
 You want to take a break?

00:58:52.180 --> 00:58:53.200
 No, thank you.

00:58:53.320 --> 00:58:54.220
 Okay, cool.

00:58:54.280 --> 00:58:55.020
 We're back to scrolling.

00:58:55.440 --> 00:58:56.840
 But you've got to tailor that experience.

00:58:56.840 --> 00:59:02.360
 The other thing I would say is that you need to really listen to people who love you.

00:59:04.120 --> 00:59:10.120
 And there will be people in your life that really do love you who will say, you're kind of a jerk online.

00:59:10.760 --> 00:59:12.480
 You're kind of a jerk about this stuff.

00:59:12.700 --> 00:59:14.880
 Or you get mad about this too much.

00:59:15.860 --> 00:59:20.260
 And take those cues and say, maybe there's something to that.

00:59:20.560 --> 00:59:22.500
 And start to filter that stuff out in your life.

00:59:22.560 --> 00:59:27.440
 And I think last, you really need to take inventory of who you're allowing to speak into your life.

00:59:29.060 --> 00:59:31.620
 Is there a spiritual mentor in your life?

00:59:32.140 --> 00:59:41.380
 Is there somebody that you can talk about life, about politics, about church life, theology, video games, whatever you're into?

00:59:42.040 --> 00:59:46.740
 Is there someone who is smarter than you, wiser than you, older than you, that is willing to spend time?

00:59:47.000 --> 00:59:48.220
 Don't wait for them to reach out.

00:59:48.440 --> 00:59:49.080
 You reach out.

00:59:49.800 --> 00:59:54.380
 My coach sees the world a very different way than I do.

00:59:54.740 --> 00:59:56.380
 And he infuriates me sometimes.

00:59:56.780 --> 00:59:57.560
 He's in his 80s.

00:59:57.640 --> 00:59:58.220
 He's 87.

00:59:59.020 --> 01:00:00.120
 I just found out he was 87.

01:00:00.180 --> 01:00:01.160
 I thought he was younger than that.

01:00:01.420 --> 01:00:05.240
 He's just one of those guys with a light in his eyes, you know, twinkle in his eyes and real sharp.

01:00:06.840 --> 01:00:07.980
 He's not going to go peacefully.

01:00:08.380 --> 01:00:11.280
 He's going to drop dead wherever he is.

01:00:11.340 --> 01:00:12.700
 He's just like that kind of guy.

01:00:13.540 --> 01:00:15.660
 And, you know, he'll be doing something.

01:00:16.400 --> 01:00:19.060
 But he's not like me.

01:00:19.440 --> 01:00:22.600
 And it's frustrating, but it's helpful.

01:00:22.940 --> 01:00:24.560
 You know, who are those people in your life?

01:00:24.780 --> 01:00:27.640
 And then the spiritual authorities that you allow to speak in your life.

01:00:28.500 --> 01:00:29.420
 You know, there's a lot.

01:00:29.700 --> 01:00:32.040
 It's an on-demand culture, and that's dangerous.

01:00:33.060 --> 01:00:41.020
 You know, when we think that because we've chosen a good pastor and we like a certain podcast and we read a certain book, nobody reads books about stuff they don't already like.

01:00:42.240 --> 01:00:44.200
 I mean, the only place you do that is in school.

01:00:44.880 --> 01:00:48.120
 You get assigned a book, and then you read something, and it stretches you.

01:00:48.560 --> 01:00:58.900
 I mean, honestly, I'm going to say this now, but if you're in charge of your education, you don't have an education because you're only going to find things that already confirm your bias.

01:00:59.260 --> 01:01:00.520
 You're going to like that stuff.

01:01:01.140 --> 01:01:02.180
 You know, that's what you're going to find.

01:01:02.580 --> 01:01:06.900
 So when you're like, I read the Bible in a year, and I listened to this podcast on it, and I'm like, great.

01:01:08.120 --> 01:01:09.140
 What else did you do?

01:01:09.140 --> 01:01:15.620
 You know, that's one of the good things about school is you go in, they assign you a teacher, and that teacher tells you what that teacher wants to tell you.

01:01:16.280 --> 01:01:20.160
 And you have to interact with it and deal with it, and that stretches you.

01:01:20.400 --> 01:01:21.480
 That's good for you.

01:01:23.640 --> 01:01:25.900
 You know, so anyway, I feel like those are the things I would do.

01:01:26.040 --> 01:01:29.740
 If you feel yourself getting that way, you have to listen to those people, especially around you.

01:01:29.760 --> 01:01:30.540
 That will be your indicator.

01:01:31.160 --> 01:01:32.340
 Like, am I getting into fights a lot?

01:01:33.160 --> 01:01:35.980
 Am I not getting work done because I'm on the Internet a lot?

01:01:36.800 --> 01:01:39.240
 You know, look back over your personal feed.

01:01:39.320 --> 01:01:40.180
 Is it mostly memes?

01:01:41.400 --> 01:01:45.600
 Are they like aggressive and angry and political in nature?

01:01:46.280 --> 01:01:48.140
 Time to take a break.

01:01:48.880 --> 01:01:50.460
 You know, time to take an inventory.

01:01:50.720 --> 01:01:52.860
 You know, take a look at your life.

01:01:53.200 --> 01:01:58.140
 When that guy keeps talking about killing Baby Yoda, then, you know, maybe you need to cut that guy loose.

01:01:58.320 --> 01:01:58.940
 Let him out.

01:01:59.220 --> 01:02:02.740
 Are they all assassination stuff about fictional characters?

01:02:04.940 --> 01:02:05.960
 It's kind of weird.

01:02:05.960 --> 01:02:07.680
 Maybe check yourself.

01:02:07.940 --> 01:02:09.660
 That is definitely weird.

01:02:10.160 --> 01:02:18.740
 But it's, you know, when you get those spiritual directors, when you get those other voices, that's when you really start to break down the echo chamber.

01:02:18.740 --> 01:02:22.760
 Like, maybe Facebook is giving you very strong.

01:02:22.860 --> 01:02:38.460
 But if you don't have those other voices, maybe even in the real world, in physical space, that is challenging those echo chambers, then you're not realizing how much you really are stuck in that situation.

01:02:38.460 --> 01:02:40.660
 And I'm a digital guy saying that.

01:02:41.140 --> 01:02:50.060
 But the opportunity, and really, I think that was the biggest damage of COVID, in my opinion, wasn't that it was digital.

01:02:50.440 --> 01:02:51.800
 Because I think digital is good.

01:02:51.880 --> 01:02:53.340
 But I think it was the lack of physical.

01:02:53.780 --> 01:02:58.320
 And that there was not really a balance between the two.

01:02:58.820 --> 01:03:05.440
 And that we were all living digital lives, and things went crazy, and that's a whole other podcast.

01:03:06.140 --> 01:03:08.320
 You know, it's funny, and I'll put a link to this in the show notes.

01:03:08.380 --> 01:03:15.980
 We just did a roundtable podcast with Dave Ferguson over Community Christian Church, Exponential CEO, new thing.

01:03:16.840 --> 01:03:17.960
 Dave Ferguson, that guy.

01:03:19.020 --> 01:03:35.860
 And so we was talking about his blessed practices, and that what we're working through with Digital Church Network is how to take his blessed practices and use that as a process and a framework to create digital missionaries.

01:03:36.860 --> 01:03:42.700
 And so, like, the blessed practices, if you're not familiar, it's begin with prayer, is the B.

01:03:43.160 --> 01:03:44.600
 L is listen.

01:03:45.200 --> 01:03:52.640
 So we're fervently praying before any conversation, and the first thing we're doing in the conversation is actually listening.

01:03:53.060 --> 01:03:53.840
 We're not talking.

01:03:54.020 --> 01:03:54.860
 We're not platforming.

01:03:54.940 --> 01:03:56.000
 We're not pushing our agenda.

01:03:56.260 --> 01:03:58.480
 We're listening to the individual.

01:03:59.420 --> 01:04:02.320
 And in physical space, Dave, the E is eat.

01:04:02.900 --> 01:04:05.200
 What we're doing is shared experiences digitally.

01:04:05.860 --> 01:04:13.900
 We're now, hey, so I'm listening to you, but let's experience something together in digital, whether that's gaming, whether that's talking, whether it's whatever.

01:04:13.900 --> 01:04:17.580
 But there's opportunities to engage, to serve.

01:04:18.060 --> 01:04:32.220
 And after you begin with prayer, after you listen, after you engage in experiences, after you serve them in digital space, this is where we really want to get to telling our story, telling the story of Jesus.

01:04:32.920 --> 01:04:38.860
 And so, so much of that positions us, the missionary, in a place of humility.

01:04:39.580 --> 01:04:41.820
 We don't really even platform what we want.

01:04:41.880 --> 01:04:43.220
 We don't tell the story of Jesus.

01:04:43.220 --> 01:04:47.320
 We don't really play that card until number five.

01:04:48.200 --> 01:04:53.040
 And just understanding that it's not, in today's culture, it's not about us being right.

01:04:53.340 --> 01:04:59.320
 It's about us actually listening to someone and through that, getting to know them better.

01:04:59.860 --> 01:05:11.020
 And that's how you're going to build, like you said, a platform or spiritual authority or some kind of right to tell someone, here's some things that you ought to look at in your life.

01:05:12.080 --> 01:05:13.140
 It takes time.

01:05:13.380 --> 01:05:24.160
 And with our society and the way it was working, that COVID busted way up, was that it was really, we were creating programs and experiences.

01:05:24.700 --> 01:05:28.420
 We were creating experiences for people to come and be part of.

01:05:28.640 --> 01:05:30.580
 Come here, be part of an experience, go home.

01:05:31.700 --> 01:05:33.320
 That's not a discipleship model.

01:05:33.680 --> 01:05:39.800
 That's an entry-level meet and greet with some important things that happen.

01:05:40.560 --> 01:05:43.340
 And that discipleship process is long.

01:05:43.780 --> 01:05:44.560
 It's messy.

01:05:44.960 --> 01:05:45.640
 It's ugly.

01:05:46.160 --> 01:05:48.200
 You can't program it.

01:05:48.500 --> 01:05:56.000
 You can't put together a tried and true process for every single person.

01:05:56.540 --> 01:06:01.740
 It's something you just have to, like, get to know someone and do life with them.

01:06:01.880 --> 01:06:05.700
 And I hate using those cliches, but that's what it is.

01:06:06.020 --> 01:06:08.460
 It's like rubbing shoulders next to each other.

01:06:08.600 --> 01:06:09.940
 It's smelling like your mentor.

01:06:10.140 --> 01:06:17.840
 You know, as they say, it's like you learned to herd sheep and you don't come in, you don't smell like sheep, you didn't learn how to herd sheep, you know, that sort of thing.

01:06:17.840 --> 01:06:23.060
 And that's what it is to be around a shepherd, is that you smell like the shepherd who smells like sheep.

01:06:23.700 --> 01:06:25.640
 And that is how you learn.

01:06:26.040 --> 01:06:35.260
 And those kinds of things, we, you know, in an on-demand society, I know we fear how easy it is to lose someone because if they don't like something we say, they can just go find another pastor somewhere in the digital space.

01:06:35.840 --> 01:06:37.680
 You know, it's like, I didn't like that sermon.

01:06:38.120 --> 01:06:39.240
 I'm not going to listen to him anymore.

01:06:39.320 --> 01:06:41.080
 I'm just going to turn on, you know, something else.

01:06:41.120 --> 01:06:44.940
 I'll go to Craig Rochelle or I'll go to Andy Stanley or I'll do, you know, Furtick or whatever.

01:06:45.480 --> 01:06:46.500
 It's like you can just find it.

01:06:46.740 --> 01:06:52.900
 And so we have to figure out a way to earn that, not loyalty, but that right to speak.

01:06:53.320 --> 01:06:57.200
 And it doesn't come through your ability to deliver a sermon.

01:06:57.380 --> 01:07:02.040
 It just comes through this ability to connect with other people in a real way.

01:07:03.140 --> 01:07:06.060
 And it takes time and you can't do it with a lot of people.

01:07:07.040 --> 01:07:09.180
 And, you know, there's no way to scale it.

01:07:09.520 --> 01:07:11.740
 You can't scale discipleship, I don't think.

01:07:12.540 --> 01:07:18.740
 It's, you can teach, but true like apprenticeship, it takes, it takes focus.

01:07:21.780 --> 01:07:27.800
 Yeah, I feel like, I feel like that's, that's the nature of digital where it gives you that ability to do that.

01:07:28.240 --> 01:07:29.440
 Man, this has been a good conversation.

01:07:29.700 --> 01:07:39.500
 I feel like we have a better understanding of how to deal with rude people and maybe even recognizing that, that we've unconsciously or subconsciously been, been rude ourselves.

01:07:39.500 --> 01:07:48.560
 And Seth, I apologize to you once again for inferring that baby Yoda must die and that anyone who thinks different is stupid.

01:07:49.480 --> 01:07:52.860
 Big, big, fat youth pastor, Seth guy.

01:07:53.200 --> 01:07:54.860
 Hey, I feel the same way about Jar Jar.

01:07:55.420 --> 01:07:56.020
 Oh, yeah.

01:07:56.480 --> 01:07:56.800
 Yeah.

01:07:57.620 --> 01:08:00.140
 Until you read that, that guy actually considered committing suicide.

01:08:00.220 --> 01:08:01.620
 I mean, this is the dark, right?

01:08:01.780 --> 01:08:03.580
 He actually considered killing himself.

01:08:03.720 --> 01:08:05.360
 There was so much negativity around that.

01:08:05.360 --> 01:08:08.340
 And so did Jake Lloyd, the kid, the kid that played young Anakin.

01:08:08.720 --> 01:08:10.580
 I mean, they got so much hate.

01:08:10.600 --> 01:08:10.780
 No kidding.

01:08:11.000 --> 01:08:16.160
 From those, Hayden Christensen left acting because of the toxic Star Wars community.

01:08:16.320 --> 01:08:17.680
 I mean, it can really kill you.

01:08:17.680 --> 01:08:34.280
 It really, and that's the connection we do have to make, is that what you don't want happening in your church is incubating a scenario where someone can do stuff like that to someone, and it literally kills them.

01:08:34.720 --> 01:08:38.540
 Because they go commit suicide or they get angry and there's violence.

01:08:38.820 --> 01:08:40.000
 I mean, it can go there.

01:08:40.400 --> 01:08:41.140
 We've seen it.

01:08:42.160 --> 01:08:43.860
 You know, and that's a very real danger.

01:08:44.100 --> 01:08:49.280
 And at the very least, it can just make them not care at all what anybody who says they're a Christian says about anything.

01:08:50.420 --> 01:08:52.280
 You know, it just kills their spiritual life.

01:08:52.360 --> 01:08:53.420
 There's reality to that.

01:08:53.580 --> 01:08:58.200
 I don't want to get into the example, but a friend of mine tried to attempt suicide.

01:08:58.200 --> 01:09:05.080
 It was averted, but it was loosely tied to relationships within a church.

01:09:05.080 --> 01:09:19.040
 And so there's some truth to that, and it's something that we need to be aware of and cognizant of because it will continue to be an issue even moving forward.

01:09:19.460 --> 01:09:22.440
 The metaverse is just going to make things more complicated.

01:09:22.440 --> 01:09:24.620
 It's not going to make it easier.

01:09:24.620 --> 01:09:31.200
 So we've got to figure this 2.0 stuff out before we get into the 3.0 that's coming very soon.

01:09:31.600 --> 01:09:35.940
 Well, I think we've got our best people on it, so I'm excited to see what happens.

01:09:36.300 --> 01:09:37.620
 Hey, man, thanks for jumping on this.

01:09:37.660 --> 01:09:38.800
 This has been a great time.

01:09:38.900 --> 01:09:40.120
 Love catching up with you.

01:09:40.640 --> 01:09:42.200
 And we'll have to do it again.

01:09:43.020 --> 01:09:46.680
 And just anyway, Seth, just landing the plane here.

01:09:47.460 --> 01:09:52.820
 If people want to connect with you, what's great ways for them to connect with you outside of this podcast?

01:09:53.220 --> 01:09:53.420
 Yeah.

01:09:54.080 --> 01:09:59.420
 If you're looking for churchcom help, go to churchcomteam.com and see what we've got to offer you there.

01:10:00.000 --> 01:10:07.340
 Basically, for less than the price of a full-time employee, we give you a whole team and strategy and execution and all kinds of stuff.

01:10:07.340 --> 01:10:08.920
 So it's helpful.

01:10:09.340 --> 01:10:11.420
 So if you're looking for that, we definitely help with that.

01:10:11.880 --> 01:10:14.180
 Sethmuse.com is a good place to connect with me as well personally.

01:10:14.620 --> 01:10:18.640
 You can find my podcast, The Seminary of Hard Knocks, there or anywhere you get your podcasts.

01:10:19.780 --> 01:10:22.140
 And then join my Facebook group.

01:10:23.180 --> 01:10:24.940
 I'm starting a Discord server soon.

01:10:25.220 --> 01:10:26.220
 That'll be coming out.

01:10:26.400 --> 01:10:29.440
 So I'm just trying to find where is the place that I need to connect best.

01:10:30.780 --> 01:10:34.460
 But yeah, I'm all over the socials at just Sethmuse or The Sethmuse.

01:10:34.720 --> 01:10:35.160
 Love it.

01:10:35.700 --> 01:10:37.340
 You on Discord will be interesting.

01:10:37.360 --> 01:10:38.240
 I think I'll like it.

01:10:38.240 --> 01:10:40.340
 That's what that looks like coming together.

01:10:40.340 --> 01:10:41.820
 It's more written.

01:10:42.300 --> 01:10:44.140
 It's an interesting culture.

01:10:45.580 --> 01:10:49.660
 It's very easy to get Discord people to connect with you.

01:10:49.920 --> 01:10:52.780
 It's a lot harder to get non-Discord people on Discord.

01:10:52.780 --> 01:10:52.940
 Yes.

01:10:53.400 --> 01:10:53.580
 Yeah.

01:10:53.760 --> 01:10:56.220
 And so that's really the pain point.

01:10:56.300 --> 01:11:00.940
 You're not going to get that 40-year-old soccer mom on Discord.

01:11:01.440 --> 01:11:08.120
 But you will get a lot of 20-somethings that are really passionate and get them to engage.

01:11:08.460 --> 01:11:09.300
 So awesome.

01:11:09.780 --> 01:11:10.580
 I love it, man.

01:11:11.080 --> 01:11:12.180
 But we're going to land the plane.

01:11:12.240 --> 01:11:12.680
 We got to go.

01:11:12.860 --> 01:11:13.500
 It's been a good one.

01:11:14.020 --> 01:11:16.180
 All you rude people out there, stop harassing me.

01:11:16.520 --> 01:11:21.680
 But for Seth, this is Jeff at the Church Digital and Digital Church Network.

01:11:21.880 --> 01:11:23.140
 Thanks for jumping on the podcast.

01:11:23.680 --> 01:11:24.540
 See you next time on the show.

01:11:24.740 --> 01:11:25.260
 Y'all have a good one.