WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:23.040 The church is right now going through a very, very difficult transition, and there is a threat to older adults, there is a threat to our young people, and what we need to be doing is exactly what Digital Church Network is doing. 00:00:23.040 --> 00:00:51.280 We need people, everybody that's connected to Christendom, whether you're a seminary, whether you're a denomination, whatever it is that you do, everybody needs to find ways and means to collaborate and ask themselves the question, how are we going to survive? 00:00:51.280 --> 00:01:02.480 Welcome to the Church Digital Podcast. Through this podcast, we'll talk about the technological innovations within the church, but more than TED for Tech itself, we'll address deeper questions. 00:01:03.340 --> 00:01:14.780 Is disciple making possible digitally? How should we approach the digital mission field? Can a biblically grounded church operate in digital space? Oh, and where does the metaverse fit into all this? 00:01:15.320 --> 00:01:27.420 Whether you're a big or small church, an established church, or a startup church plant, the Church Digital's goal is to help churches like yours learn to be a multiplying church, digitally and physically. 00:01:28.200 --> 00:01:35.080 Our heart? That churches like yours will discover a newfound focus on disciple making that will revolutionize your church. 00:01:35.760 --> 00:01:38.400 And now, here's your host, Jeff Reed. 00:01:38.800 --> 00:01:49.680 Hey, welcome to the Church Digital Podcast. This is Jeff Reed, founder of the Church Digital, Digital Church Network, Leadership Network, working with Metaverse Church Next, all sorts of fun stuff. 00:01:49.760 --> 00:01:57.020 I could just sit here rattling off the opportunities left and right, but it is a pleasure to be here with you for episode 223. 00:01:57.520 --> 00:02:03.020 And I'm excited about this episode. It's not often when you meet people. 00:02:03.100 --> 00:02:09.340 Listen, as crazy as we talk about this idea of digital church and metaverse church, there are plenty of critics. 00:02:09.780 --> 00:02:13.680 There are plenty of people who say, yeah, hey, this isn't a real thing. This isn't a valid thing. 00:02:13.940 --> 00:02:18.000 Hey, Jeff, what you're doing is actually sin, taking people out of the bride of Christ. 00:02:18.100 --> 00:02:20.560 Yeah, that was actually a conversation. That was pre-COVID, of course. 00:02:20.960 --> 00:02:26.220 But the heart of this really today is a conversation with somebody who's like, hey, there's something here. 00:02:27.000 --> 00:02:36.560 And honestly, anytime somebody's like, hey, you may be right, I just want to have put up on the podcast because that means like, hey, let's actually celebrate that somebody else is actually thinking the same thing that we are. 00:02:37.640 --> 00:02:41.820 And even in this conversation, having this conversation publicly. 00:02:41.960 --> 00:02:49.480 So we're going to dig in a little bit here into Digital Church Network and the FAM, the online community that we've created as a result of it. 00:02:49.540 --> 00:02:54.940 And so if you've not checked into FAM, if you haven't seen what's happening there, here's what I want you to do. 00:02:55.020 --> 00:02:59.680 Go to digitalchurch.network slash join FAM. 00:02:59.920 --> 00:03:03.500 Digitalchurch.network slash join FAM. 00:03:03.500 --> 00:03:12.520 Here's where your ability to create a free account for FAM, our online community, where we're resourcing, where we're helping, we're coaching. 00:03:13.080 --> 00:03:27.380 We are caring for church innovators, church people that are thinking outside of the box, whether you're planting a church or whether you're wrestling with digital discipleship and what that could look like in your physical church, in your digital church, in your metaverse church. 00:03:27.500 --> 00:03:33.280 And you're, you know, fill in the blank church, whatever you got, like this is the place where we're bringing the crazies together. 00:03:33.660 --> 00:03:35.200 And I've said it so often. 00:03:35.400 --> 00:03:37.880 A crazy person by themselves is crazy. 00:03:38.400 --> 00:03:41.800 A crazy people gathered together with other crazy people. 00:03:41.920 --> 00:03:43.720 Well, that's a force to be reckoned with. 00:03:43.760 --> 00:03:51.700 And that's what we're aiming for here with FAM is to gather together the crazies, help them convince other people they need to be crazy too. 00:03:52.020 --> 00:03:57.520 And so, which even gets a little bit into this conversation because we may have met a new crazy person here in this conversation. 00:03:57.620 --> 00:04:00.980 And so we're bringing into it here, Leonardo Blair. 00:04:01.220 --> 00:04:04.280 So, Leonardo, thank you very much for jumping onto the podcast here. 00:04:04.540 --> 00:04:05.640 It's my pleasure, Jeff. 00:04:05.700 --> 00:04:06.200 My pleasure. 00:04:06.420 --> 00:04:13.740 So, Leonardo is a writer, is a featured, a senior features reporter. 00:04:14.220 --> 00:04:15.260 That's the official title. 00:04:15.360 --> 00:04:17.800 I had butchered it earlier and Leonardo corrected me. 00:04:17.900 --> 00:04:19.640 But he writes for Christian Post. 00:04:20.220 --> 00:04:28.480 And so I had the honor at some point of connecting with Leonardo because he started asking some questions about digital churches. 00:04:28.480 --> 00:04:40.360 And actually wrote an incredible, very long, detailed article about the idea of digital expressions of church and metaverse expressions of church without buildings. 00:04:40.960 --> 00:04:50.820 And to my knowledge, at this point, this is the most detailed article I have seen on the idea of digital and metaverse church. 00:04:50.820 --> 00:04:58.460 And so talking with him, obviously, there was an immediate connection and it connected him with Chesley Lundy, co-founder of DCN and some others. 00:04:58.920 --> 00:05:05.480 And so, Leonardo, man, it's exciting just even that you were seeing some of this stuff and excited about it. 00:05:05.540 --> 00:05:15.380 But I would love to maybe unpack some of this, learn a little bit more about you and let you even share a little bit of what you're seeing and some of what you learned as you were writing through this article. 00:05:15.500 --> 00:05:15.940 Does that sound good? 00:05:16.020 --> 00:05:16.360 For sure. 00:05:16.600 --> 00:05:16.900 For sure. 00:05:17.120 --> 00:05:17.520 Awesome. 00:05:18.120 --> 00:05:23.720 Hey, so even just to get started, how did you get into journalism? 00:05:23.900 --> 00:05:25.560 How did you get connected with the Christian Post? 00:05:26.080 --> 00:05:27.720 Like, tell us a little bit of that story. 00:05:27.900 --> 00:05:28.400 Yeah, no. 00:05:28.940 --> 00:05:37.700 So I, my long-term goal was, is to become a famous writer. 00:05:37.800 --> 00:05:45.220 When I was in high school, I studied these amazing 18th century writers like Nathaniel Hawthorne. 00:05:46.220 --> 00:05:54.140 You know, those types of writers that I always kind of, you know, looked at these guys as really, really smart people. 00:05:54.140 --> 00:06:00.980 And I studied their backgrounds and I studied their backgrounds and found that many of them started out as journalists. 00:06:01.600 --> 00:06:14.340 So journalism is sort of like, for me, a practical way to write until you get to that stage where you're able to sort of, you know, live on your creativity. 00:06:14.700 --> 00:06:17.900 So, so that's kind of what the initial plan was. 00:06:18.600 --> 00:06:22.320 But I'm a very curious person. 00:06:22.560 --> 00:06:27.140 You know, I'm interested in everything from business to science to math. 00:06:27.220 --> 00:06:27.800 You name it. 00:06:27.920 --> 00:06:29.220 I'm, that's me. 00:06:29.740 --> 00:06:40.060 So I, I studied, uh, studied media in undergrad and then went to Columbia, uh, afterwards, um, to, to study investigative journalism. 00:06:40.540 --> 00:06:50.860 And I was, you know, I was doing it for a while and I left and started doing, um, communications like, you know, international relations. 00:06:51.340 --> 00:06:58.840 And then the Lord actually called me back and, you know, said, you know, you, you needed to, to come back to journalism. 00:06:59.120 --> 00:07:01.540 And he led me to the Christian post. 00:07:01.780 --> 00:07:06.960 So that's kind of how I, um, got connected, uh, you know, through a dream. 00:07:07.120 --> 00:07:08.960 Are you exclusively writing for Christian post? 00:07:09.040 --> 00:07:11.440 Do you write for, for other sources at the same time? 00:07:11.440 --> 00:07:13.100 Like what, what does that look like? 00:07:13.300 --> 00:07:17.640 Listen, the work that we do at the Christian post is so vast. 00:07:17.920 --> 00:07:19.400 There is so much work to do. 00:07:19.540 --> 00:07:20.720 There's so much analysis. 00:07:21.440 --> 00:07:25.700 I mean, every single day, I mean, the work, you know, the work is never done. 00:07:25.960 --> 00:07:28.500 So yes, I, I write exclusively for the Christian post. 00:07:28.860 --> 00:07:29.220 Awesome. 00:07:29.800 --> 00:07:34.960 Now, do you consider your, like you wrote an article about planting churches in digital and metaverse space. 00:07:34.960 --> 00:07:37.520 Like this is, this is a radical concept. 00:07:37.520 --> 00:07:38.040 It's fun. 00:07:38.100 --> 00:07:38.340 It's cool. 00:07:38.380 --> 00:07:42.000 We talk about it all the time here, but like, do you consider yourself technological, 00:07:42.000 --> 00:07:43.780 like a technology type guy? 00:07:44.000 --> 00:07:46.320 How did you, where did this idea come from? 00:07:46.420 --> 00:07:51.500 Like, how did you end up being a writer to a writer talking about this, this really bleeding 00:07:51.500 --> 00:07:52.080 edge concept? 00:07:52.480 --> 00:07:52.660 Yeah. 00:07:52.740 --> 00:07:59.100 I mean, so as, as somebody who is a trained investigative journalist, um, I, I love data. 00:07:59.780 --> 00:08:06.520 Uh, so we, I, I've, I've been tracking data on the church for a long time. 00:08:06.520 --> 00:08:16.860 Um, in 2019, I wrote a story about, um, internet pastors, you know, we were tracking all this, 00:08:16.860 --> 00:08:21.600 uh, information about, you know, the church membership going down. 00:08:21.800 --> 00:08:28.900 But I noticed that, you know, if you look at, uh, you know, some of the, the, the, the, the, 00:08:28.900 --> 00:08:34.240 the internet preachers, they would have millions of people following them while, you know, the 00:08:34.240 --> 00:08:35.600 church membership was going down. 00:08:36.080 --> 00:08:43.280 So I started that conversation in 2019, did a report and, you know, listen to, you know, 00:08:43.320 --> 00:08:49.060 these younger, uh, personalities talk about how, you know, when they started out, they were 00:08:49.060 --> 00:08:53.700 rejected, uh, you know, pastors didn't want to, you know, let them come speak in their church, 00:08:53.700 --> 00:08:57.960 but they had this audience and they had the air of people who were looking for something 00:08:57.960 --> 00:09:05.100 more and, um, you know, shortly after that, um, I think about a year or maybe nine months 00:09:05.100 --> 00:09:07.620 after I did that article, uh, COVID hit. 00:09:08.340 --> 00:09:15.560 And, you know, that data, you know, started showing how quickly pastors started to pivot. 00:09:15.800 --> 00:09:22.260 So everybody who was, oh, I don't want a Facebook page, you know, this, you know, tech is demonic 00:09:22.260 --> 00:09:28.320 or whatever it is, everybody went into survival mode and they started paying attention to, um, 00:09:28.320 --> 00:09:29.280 what was happening online. 00:09:29.680 --> 00:09:29.800 Yeah. 00:09:29.920 --> 00:09:32.660 I just pulled the article on, on the internet preachers. 00:09:32.660 --> 00:09:35.080 And so we've got links to that in the show notes. 00:09:35.080 --> 00:09:37.780 And yeah, that was June 24th, 2019. 00:09:37.780 --> 00:09:43.300 So that's nine months away from, you know, the end of the world there in, in March, 2020. 00:09:43.360 --> 00:09:48.480 And, and, and it's interesting to me how, you know, I was even reflecting back and joking 00:09:48.480 --> 00:09:55.000 earlier, like I had, I had a good friend who was a pastor in my life that basically November, 00:09:55.360 --> 00:10:01.180 December, 2019, uh, called me up and was like, Hey, Jesus, or Hey, Hey, Jeff, stop sinning. 00:10:01.660 --> 00:10:06.540 Uh, you need to confess the sin in your life and stop taking people out of the bride of Christ 00:10:06.540 --> 00:10:08.540 by doing, you know, these digital churches. 00:10:08.540 --> 00:10:13.680 You need to, you know, and basically it was digital church equals sin, confess that sin 00:10:13.680 --> 00:10:14.920 and remove it from your life. 00:10:15.040 --> 00:10:16.380 And this was a friend of mine. 00:10:16.500 --> 00:10:20.760 Uh, we grew up together and so it was like, Hey, uh, I'm not, I don't, I don't know that 00:10:20.760 --> 00:10:21.560 I agree with you. 00:10:21.740 --> 00:10:25.580 And, you know, what's interesting was I didn't hear from that guy for about three or four months 00:10:25.580 --> 00:10:29.780 until, uh, you know, sometime around that March 16th, when the end of the world came 00:10:29.780 --> 00:10:32.660 and, uh, and he was like, Hey Jeff, can you, can you help us? 00:10:32.740 --> 00:10:33.740 Our buildings are shut down. 00:10:33.820 --> 00:10:37.480 Can you help us start to broadcast those services so we can do church digitally? 00:10:37.480 --> 00:10:42.340 And, and, you know, I did, I kind of maybe rubbed it in his face a little bit, you 00:10:42.340 --> 00:10:46.360 know, sent him an invoice for the time, but, uh, certainly able to help through it. 00:10:46.500 --> 00:10:52.720 Hey, so, um, so you were, you, you were looking at some of this stuff, you know, pre, pre COVID 00:10:52.720 --> 00:10:55.000 wrestling with this COVID hits. 00:10:55.500 --> 00:11:00.960 Um, and so now you're seeing this, this rush of everybody doing things digitally. 00:11:01.260 --> 00:11:06.520 We're coming out of the COVID season, wherever you think we are in that, in this model. 00:11:06.520 --> 00:11:11.420 And now you're, you're, you're, you're discovering maybe this new model, this new paradigm of, 00:11:11.420 --> 00:11:12.100 of church. 00:11:12.260 --> 00:11:16.580 Like how did you progress from people, internet pastors doing this stuff? 00:11:16.580 --> 00:11:21.380 And how did that, that grow and evolve to, to writing an article about metaverse and, 00:11:21.380 --> 00:11:25.660 and virtual reality and, and, and a lot of this is what you're getting into the second 00:11:25.660 --> 00:11:26.040 article. 00:11:26.040 --> 00:11:29.040 So kind of walk me through the story of how you got to the story. 00:11:29.260 --> 00:11:29.480 Yeah. 00:11:29.640 --> 00:11:34.780 Um, you, you know, COVID actually disrupted everyone. 00:11:34.920 --> 00:11:42.360 And so, because the Christian post, um, is sort of, is a digital publication. 00:11:42.360 --> 00:11:44.100 Like we started out as digital. 00:11:44.100 --> 00:11:48.580 So we're, we like, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're digital natives basically. 00:11:49.000 --> 00:11:54.280 So while everybody else was scrambling, we were already comfortable in that space. 00:11:54.840 --> 00:12:03.080 And, um, you, you know, I was listening to, uh, different pastors, uh, talk, I was doing 00:12:03.080 --> 00:12:03.740 research. 00:12:03.740 --> 00:12:07.500 I found DJ Soto's church, uh, the VR church. 00:12:08.000 --> 00:12:15.760 And, um, you, you, you know, I, I, I listened to, um, I can't remember her name, but she has 00:12:15.760 --> 00:12:18.520 a church down in Florida and she works for Facebook. 00:12:19.300 --> 00:12:22.640 Um, she was also on a podcast as well. 00:12:22.760 --> 00:12:22.880 Yeah. 00:12:22.920 --> 00:12:24.360 Nona Jones, Nona Jones. 00:12:24.480 --> 00:12:24.720 Right. 00:12:24.880 --> 00:12:34.520 So they were having this conversation about, um, how, um, the meta, the, the, the, the, 00:12:34.520 --> 00:12:40.340 the, the, the metaverse, uh, the, the meta church is going to replace the mega church. 00:12:40.340 --> 00:12:43.260 And I, I started digging into that a little bit. 00:12:43.260 --> 00:12:49.160 And, and then I just simply started connecting the data from, you know, research companies 00:12:49.160 --> 00:12:54.860 like Barna, Pew, you know, and just, you know, my own personal experience just reported 00:12:54.860 --> 00:13:02.420 on story after story of churches shutting down churches that could no longer sustain themselves. 00:13:03.380 --> 00:13:08.280 And, and that was, was, was sort of worrying to me, uh, you know, trying to think about 00:13:08.280 --> 00:13:10.600 the future, how will the church survive? 00:13:11.140 --> 00:13:14.420 So that's, that's how I, I got into it. 00:13:14.420 --> 00:13:18.440 Yeah, that was a great podcast with, with Nona Jones, Kerry Newhoff, uh, Kerry Newhoff 00:13:18.440 --> 00:13:23.660 podcast, I'm pretty sure with, with Nona and DJ and, um, you know, DJ has been a friend. 00:13:23.720 --> 00:13:25.340 He's been on this, this podcast a lot. 00:13:25.340 --> 00:13:31.240 And, uh, you know, he's talked about how a lot of attention really came on, onto what 00:13:31.240 --> 00:13:37.520 he's, he's been doing, you know, through, through COVID, but even amplified by COVID, um, the 00:13:37.520 --> 00:13:43.280 announcement of, of meta becoming the new name of Facebook and, and, uh, the video of, um, 00:13:43.280 --> 00:13:44.640 Zuckerberg. 00:13:44.780 --> 00:13:50.340 I think Zuckerberg did a live broadcast, I think November, maybe 2021, um, talking about 00:13:50.340 --> 00:13:54.540 the change of the name from Facebook to meta to be the umbrella company, even, even life 00:13:54.540 --> 00:13:59.300 church, which was their announcement that they were doing metaverse church services, which 00:13:59.300 --> 00:14:03.260 was the largest church, uh, you know, at the time, even to this point, it's the largest 00:14:03.260 --> 00:14:06.140 church is actually doing something in the metaverse. 00:14:06.300 --> 00:14:11.480 I actually, I mean, I can remember, uh, with the Zuckerberg, I saw traffic on the website, 00:14:11.480 --> 00:14:14.340 on the church digital increase about, about five times. 00:14:14.340 --> 00:14:17.960 We had a five X increase just with that announcement. 00:14:17.960 --> 00:14:20.860 As everybody started searching, Oh, what is this metaverse thing? 00:14:20.860 --> 00:14:23.980 That, that Zuckerberg's talking about was church, like in that space. 00:14:24.240 --> 00:14:25.660 And then I was actually, it was funny. 00:14:25.720 --> 00:14:31.060 I was actually on jury duty, um, the week that, um, life church made their announcement 00:14:31.060 --> 00:14:37.880 and traffic on the website blew up 10 times, uh, even more on top of just because everybody 00:14:37.880 --> 00:14:41.920 was searching for more information about what this could look like. 00:14:41.980 --> 00:14:47.320 And it's interesting how there's, there's a lot of interest, um, centered around this idea 00:14:47.320 --> 00:14:50.840 of did a digital and metaverse churches, social media churches, streaming churches, 00:14:50.860 --> 00:14:53.340 churches, and, and, and, and what this looks like. 00:14:53.400 --> 00:14:58.380 I'm just curious as, as what you've done with Christian, uh, post and, and, and the publishing 00:14:58.380 --> 00:15:00.640 of that, how has this been, been received? 00:15:00.760 --> 00:15:04.540 What, what has been some of the response from, from people kind of digging into what this looks 00:15:04.540 --> 00:15:04.800 like? 00:15:04.800 --> 00:15:10.440 Yeah, I, I think it has started a very, very big conversation. 00:15:11.080 --> 00:15:20.840 I have done several, uh, radio, uh, morning shows, um, on this topic, um, people who are 00:15:20.840 --> 00:15:30.580 interested in knowing more about how the metaverse works, uh, you, you know, so it's, it's, I, 00:15:30.580 --> 00:15:37.580 I, I, I failed to mention it and it's, it's, when I got into reporting on this subject as 00:15:37.580 --> 00:15:44.000 well, a part of it came from me interviewing pastors, like during COVID, I was talking to 00:15:44.000 --> 00:15:48.440 different pastors and we were always tracking, okay, when are the churches going to open up? 00:15:48.440 --> 00:15:49.900 When our church is going to open up? 00:15:49.960 --> 00:15:53.240 And I'm not going to name the pastor who said this to me. 00:15:53.420 --> 00:15:56.480 He has one of the largest churches in the country. 00:15:57.380 --> 00:16:02.360 And he said to me, you know, the people are comfortable. 00:16:02.360 --> 00:16:03.760 They don't want to come back to church. 00:16:03.880 --> 00:16:05.240 They like online church. 00:16:05.920 --> 00:16:07.540 That's basically what he said to me. 00:16:07.820 --> 00:16:09.460 They like on online church. 00:16:09.460 --> 00:16:12.100 And I was going to make that into a headline, but I said, you know what? 00:16:12.360 --> 00:16:20.200 I don't want people to think I'm trying to destroy the church, but I think people have, um, people 00:16:20.200 --> 00:16:30.400 have sort of adapted way more than the, the church leadership think they have, uh, you know, 00:16:30.400 --> 00:16:37.640 we, I was looking also at another study from Barna, um, that, that talked about the black church 00:16:37.640 --> 00:16:38.620 specifically. 00:16:38.620 --> 00:16:43.740 And they mentioned that, uh, you know, black Christians were more comfortable with a hybrid 00:16:43.740 --> 00:16:49.800 model, you know, the same way people prefer having a hybrid model of work right now. 00:16:49.800 --> 00:17:00.320 Uh, you know, so I, I, I, I, I feel like we're, we're people, some people might be sitting 00:17:00.320 --> 00:17:11.640 back waiting for the past or the pre COVID, uh, dynamic to return, but I don't think based 00:17:11.640 --> 00:17:16.380 on the data that we've been seeing, um, that it's, it's, it's going to come back. 00:17:17.040 --> 00:17:18.620 It's, it's, it's something different. 00:17:18.620 --> 00:17:20.740 Yeah, I, I, I would agree with that. 00:17:20.820 --> 00:17:21.780 We, we talk about that. 00:17:21.840 --> 00:17:25.200 I'm, I'm just curious, the pastor that was like, people aren't coming back. 00:17:25.280 --> 00:17:26.060 They like the online. 00:17:26.320 --> 00:17:29.620 He, he said that in a negative context, I'm assuming, right? 00:17:29.640 --> 00:17:31.200 It wasn't, yay, people aren't coming back. 00:17:31.200 --> 00:17:32.720 Like he was perceiving a negative. 00:17:32.900 --> 00:17:33.940 I'm not sure. 00:17:34.040 --> 00:17:41.320 I wouldn't say it was negative because this pastor is very smart and he is, uh, you know, 00:17:41.420 --> 00:17:43.140 he's, he's, he's very flexible. 00:17:43.140 --> 00:17:52.580 He has a good team, uh, you know, so I, I, I think he was just acknowledging, uh, the transition 00:17:52.580 --> 00:17:53.820 that was taking place. 00:17:54.300 --> 00:17:55.060 Good, good for him. 00:17:55.060 --> 00:18:00.280 You know, if, if he was assuming it was positive or seeing it, seeing it as an opportunity instead 00:18:00.280 --> 00:18:01.160 of a threat, you know? 00:18:01.160 --> 00:18:03.180 And that, that's really a lot of the challenge. 00:18:03.180 --> 00:18:10.780 I feel that, excuse me, that people are seeing it more as a threat to the normality of what 00:18:10.780 --> 00:18:16.700 was, and that the, the healthy, the only healthy model of a church is one that's existing in 00:18:16.700 --> 00:18:23.080 physical space that meets every Sunday at 9am, um, which, which by the way is, is, you know, 00:18:23.180 --> 00:18:28.620 arguably a product to be consumed to say when we like that, that online broadcast is a consume 00:18:28.620 --> 00:18:29.600 product. 00:18:29.960 --> 00:18:35.160 And if that's the only thing that we're doing, uh, to, to make a disciple, well, then that's 00:18:35.160 --> 00:18:37.120 really maybe a larger issue. 00:18:37.120 --> 00:18:38.300 That's not just about digital. 00:18:38.300 --> 00:18:39.960 I think it's about physical as well. 00:18:40.820 --> 00:18:45.980 And my hope is, you know, coming through this COVID season, that churches would learn that 00:18:45.980 --> 00:18:52.300 what we're called to do and how to be effective, to do ministry in 2020, to reach people and 00:18:52.300 --> 00:18:58.280 to disciple people here in the 2020s, even, even post COVID, like it's more than just the 00:18:58.280 --> 00:18:59.200 one hour on Sunday. 00:18:59.620 --> 00:19:03.260 Uh, and, and, and hopefully whether it's, and I don't even care if it's physical, if it's 00:19:03.260 --> 00:19:07.840 digital, like these, these, the technology is just tools in the same way that the brick 00:19:07.840 --> 00:19:12.020 and mortar building is a tool, but we've got to do more than just the service. 00:19:12.020 --> 00:19:15.920 And this is, I mean, this is really why I loved, you know, your article. 00:19:15.980 --> 00:19:22.620 Cause you, you delved into the exposure of, of what these digital churches are doing beyond 00:19:22.620 --> 00:19:30.000 Sunday, um, and, and, and how that's effective in helping to create these disciples and to 00:19:30.000 --> 00:19:33.540 even leverage and multiply what's happening in the, in the churches. 00:19:34.300 --> 00:19:39.240 Are you, um, like in general, what were, were the people you were talking with? 00:19:39.300 --> 00:19:44.720 Were they like this, the, the, uh, the response kind of the feedback around, around the article 00:19:44.720 --> 00:19:49.880 here with digital churches, uh, when you're on these, these talk shows in the morning and 00:19:49.880 --> 00:19:53.300 when you're doing the, the press tour, I know that you get through with some of the topics 00:19:53.300 --> 00:19:54.880 like this, are people supportive? 00:19:55.120 --> 00:19:55.780 Are they negative? 00:19:55.980 --> 00:19:56.900 Are they understanding? 00:19:57.260 --> 00:19:58.440 Are they skeptics? 00:19:58.440 --> 00:20:02.560 Like kind of what's been the posture of people as you're talking with them in general about 00:20:02.560 --> 00:20:02.800 this? 00:20:02.860 --> 00:20:09.580 I think there's a little bit of fear and excitement mixed together, but there is the, the, the 00:20:09.580 --> 00:20:18.760 tone is very sober because I think the data that we've presented, uh, with the trend that 00:20:18.760 --> 00:20:26.520 we have, we have observed is, you know, you, you, you know, the, the numbers don't lie, you 00:20:26.520 --> 00:20:27.760 know, numbers don't lie. 00:20:27.960 --> 00:20:36.280 So if we, I mean, just yesterday, another church, I reported on a 206 year old church that had 00:20:36.280 --> 00:20:46.620 to shut down because they, the members were older, um, and they just could not attract the 00:20:46.620 --> 00:20:47.280 young people. 00:20:48.180 --> 00:20:55.400 So this is a church that survived world wars, survived, um, you know, pandemics before went 00:20:55.400 --> 00:21:00.640 through so many changes, you know, and, and they just could not survive this period. 00:21:00.640 --> 00:21:07.960 So there is a massive shift that has taken place that, you know, many churches in the, in 00:21:07.960 --> 00:21:14.340 the last few months I've reported, and it's not just the century year old churches that are 00:21:14.340 --> 00:21:14.980 shutting down. 00:21:14.980 --> 00:21:22.420 You have churches, uh, you know, like the Potter's house in Denver, um, that they had this large 00:21:22.420 --> 00:21:25.500 campus and they shut down and shifted to digital. 00:21:25.840 --> 00:21:33.760 So I think a lot of leaders are looking at the cost benefit analysis and they're also looking 00:21:33.760 --> 00:21:43.420 at, you know, the realities of, you know, how they can still do church without, um, you, you know, 00:21:43.420 --> 00:21:45.820 worrying about the overheads of a large building. 00:21:46.120 --> 00:21:46.460 Yes. 00:21:46.960 --> 00:21:47.700 Oh, so much. 00:21:47.760 --> 00:21:48.120 Yes, sir. 00:21:48.160 --> 00:21:48.540 I was funny. 00:21:48.580 --> 00:21:53.200 I was actually just talking about the Potter's house with somebody yesterday and, and, and 00:21:53.200 --> 00:21:55.580 honestly celebrating that as a model. 00:21:55.580 --> 00:22:01.060 You know, most people, I remember when that was announced mid, late last year, uh, that 00:22:01.060 --> 00:22:05.040 they were transitioning away from the building and going to a digital only model. 00:22:05.200 --> 00:22:10.340 Like there was, there was criticism for them in some circles that they were, they were giving 00:22:10.340 --> 00:22:17.020 up and it's the people that, uh, are saying that you can't do, you can't do discipleship. 00:22:17.100 --> 00:22:18.900 The relationships are not real. 00:22:18.900 --> 00:22:22.120 It's, it's, it's the negative, uh, people in those contexts. 00:22:22.120 --> 00:22:26.660 But what, what's interesting is, is we're, and you're highlighting some of these stories, 00:22:26.760 --> 00:22:32.300 Leonardo, where we're finding that you can, and it is, and it just, it looks different. 00:22:32.300 --> 00:22:36.080 And, and the, the Potter's house in Denver is going to look different than the Potter's 00:22:36.080 --> 00:22:36.300 house. 00:22:36.380 --> 00:22:38.780 The other, uh, it's in Dallas, right? 00:22:38.800 --> 00:22:40.560 That's where the, the main campus is. 00:22:40.760 --> 00:22:41.140 Yes. 00:22:41.260 --> 00:22:42.080 The main campus. 00:22:42.220 --> 00:22:42.400 Yeah. 00:22:42.700 --> 00:22:42.900 Yeah. 00:22:42.900 --> 00:22:47.320 And so like things are going to be different, but between these two, and that might be an 00:22:47.320 --> 00:22:51.820 interesting, you know, podcasting conversation in its own, exploring the one campus versus 00:22:51.820 --> 00:22:56.300 another and, and how they behave, how they react, how they're connecting, what some of their 00:22:56.300 --> 00:22:57.240 strategies are. 00:22:57.760 --> 00:23:03.980 Uh, but in those differences on honestly come, come strengths and opportunities by, by doing 00:23:03.980 --> 00:23:05.740 a different thing in digital space. 00:23:05.960 --> 00:23:11.340 It's the thing that I love about digital churches by doing digital differently than how physical 00:23:11.340 --> 00:23:11.940 church is. 00:23:11.940 --> 00:23:16.260 We have the opportunity to reach a different person digitally than, than we're reaching, 00:23:16.260 --> 00:23:17.680 uh, in the physical. 00:23:17.680 --> 00:23:22.960 And, and, and a lot of these virtual reality churches, DJ Soto, Jason Poling, Cornerstone 00:23:22.960 --> 00:23:27.660 VR, um, you know, VR tiger with Oasis church, which we've talked about a little bit here on 00:23:27.660 --> 00:23:28.160 the podcast. 00:23:28.360 --> 00:23:33.440 These guys are, are, are reaching different people than the people that are coming into 00:23:33.440 --> 00:23:34.200 the buildings. 00:23:34.500 --> 00:23:40.000 Uh, and, and, and it's, it's a beautiful thing as you start to realize that the differences 00:23:40.000 --> 00:23:45.580 make them unique, which makes them effective as opposed to just carbon copying the same type 00:23:45.580 --> 00:23:50.840 of thing over and over again to reach those types of people that, you know, let's be honest. 00:23:51.060 --> 00:23:57.040 There's a, the majority of people in 2022 America, at least are not interested in coming, uh, to 00:23:57.040 --> 00:23:58.380 the brick and mortar building. 00:23:58.380 --> 00:24:02.780 We've got to do different things to reach a, a different type of, of person. 00:24:03.020 --> 00:24:07.060 Have you, I'm just curious that I, because this idea is just fresh in my head. 00:24:07.160 --> 00:24:11.900 Have you had any, any connection with Potter's house and some of those people, like how that 00:24:11.900 --> 00:24:12.940 transition is gone? 00:24:13.120 --> 00:24:14.740 Uh, have you had any conversations over there? 00:24:15.100 --> 00:24:20.580 I, I think I need to follow up that that's going to be a part of the, you know, the future 00:24:20.580 --> 00:24:22.900 discussion, the, the, the future transition. 00:24:23.640 --> 00:24:30.760 Um, I, I think I, I also mentioned, uh, Willow Creek, uh, Dave Dumit, uh, he raised this, 00:24:30.860 --> 00:24:38.120 you know, he took over that church, uh, during the pandemic and, you know, he had to cut staff 00:24:38.120 --> 00:24:45.780 recently because, you know, the map, the numbers just weren't there, you know, the, the, you 00:24:45.780 --> 00:24:52.340 know, they, they can't financially sustain, uh, that church anymore because the people are 00:24:52.340 --> 00:24:53.280 not coming back. 00:24:53.400 --> 00:24:58.880 So as we're seeing more and more, it's interesting, even falling back to your church that launched 00:24:58.880 --> 00:25:07.020 in 1815, if it's a 206 year old church that shut down, uh, I, I think there's, there's coming 00:25:07.020 --> 00:25:12.760 a season soon where we're going to see, uh, digital next churches. 00:25:13.220 --> 00:25:16.540 Um, you know, not churches that are launching first in digital. 00:25:16.540 --> 00:25:22.240 We saw that earlier in COVID, uh, Nuvo church, uh, city, uh, city center church in California. 00:25:22.480 --> 00:25:27.360 There were lots of churches that launched first digitally and then went physical. 00:25:27.360 --> 00:25:33.800 We're seeing digital only churches like, uh, Lux digital and barbecue church and so many, uh, 00:25:33.900 --> 00:25:34.940 metaverse churches as well. 00:25:34.940 --> 00:25:41.460 But I think they were going to see this model of, of digital next where churches can't justify 00:25:41.460 --> 00:25:42.860 the, the building. 00:25:42.980 --> 00:25:44.900 They can't justify the large staff. 00:25:45.020 --> 00:25:50.740 They're, they're going to have to lean into a more scalable approach of, of digital. 00:25:51.200 --> 00:25:52.120 It is, it's interesting. 00:25:52.200 --> 00:25:56.760 We've talked about Barna, uh, Kinnaman, uh, you know, was, was the guy who had said in COVID, 00:25:56.980 --> 00:25:58.340 I forget the exact stat. 00:25:58.420 --> 00:26:02.880 It's been a minute since I quoted it, but he was predicting, you know, 20, 25% of church 00:26:02.880 --> 00:26:08.600 closures, I think by 2023, like it was, it was a very drastic number. 00:26:08.600 --> 00:26:13.540 And, and I, you know, even when he said it, I was like, I, I like the, I like the stat. 00:26:13.540 --> 00:26:14.540 I agree with the mindset. 00:26:14.540 --> 00:26:18.740 I think it's too quick because I think people are going to scramble. 00:26:18.740 --> 00:26:19.860 They're going to hold on. 00:26:20.000 --> 00:26:24.540 They're going to squeeze every last dime because they don't want to give up on the dream of 00:26:24.540 --> 00:26:27.260 the church, at least in the physical space. 00:26:27.500 --> 00:26:33.140 Not realizing that maybe some forward thinking people can extend their ministry and maybe even 00:26:33.140 --> 00:26:38.100 propel their ministry into a different environment by engaging and doing it digitally. 00:26:38.280 --> 00:26:40.120 Potter house is a great example of that. 00:26:40.440 --> 00:26:42.180 Hey, we can't afford this giant building. 00:26:42.340 --> 00:26:46.660 We can't afford, uh, the staffing and the infrastructures because of just the difficulties 00:26:46.660 --> 00:26:48.740 and the complexities of doing church in Denver. 00:26:48.960 --> 00:26:50.300 I was just in Denver last week. 00:26:50.360 --> 00:26:56.080 It's a very expensive city, but if we can engage digitally and start to, to pull some of that 00:26:56.080 --> 00:27:02.360 in, if, if we can extend the reach of this scale down, how much all of this costs and instead 00:27:02.360 --> 00:27:06.680 maybe reach different people than the other physical locations are maybe even outside of 00:27:06.680 --> 00:27:07.000 Denver. 00:27:07.220 --> 00:27:09.480 Oh my gosh, there's incredible potential. 00:27:09.980 --> 00:27:11.300 It just takes people. 00:27:11.420 --> 00:27:12.060 It takes planters. 00:27:12.160 --> 00:27:17.620 It takes pastors to imagine some things and do some things differently with that. 00:27:17.740 --> 00:27:18.360 That's so good. 00:27:18.560 --> 00:27:18.660 Yeah. 00:27:18.780 --> 00:27:24.100 But I, I, I also think one of the challenges for churches today is that if you look at the 00:27:24.100 --> 00:27:30.780 same data from Barna and Pew and so on, that their most ardent supporters are older adults, 00:27:31.120 --> 00:27:34.660 like the, the older you are, that's where the market is. 00:27:34.660 --> 00:27:46.220 And a lot of the, a lot of this audience does not have the technological skills to, uh, probably 00:27:46.220 --> 00:27:50.120 sustain you themselves in a digital church environment. 00:27:50.120 --> 00:27:56.800 So I know that here in New York city, where I am, there are tons and tons of free classes 00:27:56.800 --> 00:28:04.080 for old, old, older adults where you can go and train and get introduced to, um, you know, 00:28:04.140 --> 00:28:07.180 this, this kind of, uh, you know, system or help. 00:28:07.880 --> 00:28:17.240 Maybe what the churches could do is while they're transitioning, they start offering some free 00:28:17.240 --> 00:28:23.680 classes, like connect with their local government officials, because it's not something that's 00:28:23.680 --> 00:28:24.540 going away. 00:28:24.680 --> 00:28:29.740 It's something that's coming and it's going to continue to increase, right? 00:28:29.880 --> 00:28:36.280 This event that I'm going to, after I'm finished with this interview, um, it's talking about 00:28:36.280 --> 00:28:39.880 the digital identity in web three, right? 00:28:39.980 --> 00:28:44.640 So there's going to be this convergence because we, we all have like different passwords for 00:28:44.640 --> 00:28:45.940 all these different apps. 00:28:46.140 --> 00:28:52.760 The next level is, okay, you're going to have this digital you that is going to be recognizable 00:28:52.760 --> 00:28:54.340 across all platforms. 00:28:54.540 --> 00:28:58.000 So that's, that's what people are working on right now. 00:28:58.260 --> 00:29:07.140 So I think if the church is going to be helpful and, uh, future proof and forward thinking, 00:29:07.140 --> 00:29:13.980 then the church is going to have to do more than just, Oh, let me start a Facebook page. 00:29:14.020 --> 00:29:20.580 Let me start, you know, this or that you're going to have to be a part of the transition. 00:29:20.580 --> 00:29:26.460 You're going to have to help, uh, people so that they're not left behind because all these 00:29:26.460 --> 00:29:31.760 churches that are shutting down, I haven't heard anybody talk about, Oh, where are these 00:29:31.760 --> 00:29:32.920 older adults going to go? 00:29:33.320 --> 00:29:35.340 That's, that's a, that's a great perspective. 00:29:35.340 --> 00:29:36.020 It's interesting. 00:29:36.100 --> 00:29:37.140 That actually reminds me. 00:29:37.220 --> 00:29:44.060 I was, when COVID was coming across, I was actually working for a, a physical church down 00:29:44.060 --> 00:29:45.000 here in Miami, Florida. 00:29:45.420 --> 00:29:51.380 Um, and they were, they had a, um, it's let's, let's call it an older audience. 00:29:51.560 --> 00:29:55.700 You know, it's, it's, it's a little more on the, in the older side of, of, of Miami. 00:29:55.940 --> 00:30:01.440 And so the, the, and they, the church was doing incredible, honestly, incredible digital 00:30:01.440 --> 00:30:02.020 things. 00:30:02.400 --> 00:30:06.120 Uh, but it was reaching a different type of person than the people that were attending 00:30:06.120 --> 00:30:06.980 in the physical building. 00:30:07.360 --> 00:30:11.980 And, and the, the week that we saw COVID coming, uh, you know, and literally like we're here 00:30:11.980 --> 00:30:12.420 in Miami. 00:30:12.420 --> 00:30:16.760 And if you remember in, uh, uh, Asia was getting hit China. 00:30:16.760 --> 00:30:22.360 And there was that over the weekend, we saw it hit California or actually Seattle was first. 00:30:22.360 --> 00:30:23.900 And then it came down to California. 00:30:23.900 --> 00:30:29.320 And like across that week, we could literally see it hitting state, state time zone, time 00:30:29.320 --> 00:30:30.800 zone coming towards the East coast. 00:30:31.300 --> 00:30:36.600 And, um, you know, I, I remember just being in leadership meetings, uh, with, with the leader, 00:30:36.720 --> 00:30:37.840 senior leadership with the church. 00:30:37.840 --> 00:30:42.500 And I, and I was like, we need to run workshops around the clock, educating as many people 00:30:42.500 --> 00:30:47.200 in the church on, on how to download the mobile app, how to use the mobile app, how to do 00:30:47.200 --> 00:30:47.920 online giving. 00:30:48.220 --> 00:30:53.840 Like our, our, our problem is that we need to educate a, a classification of people. 00:30:53.960 --> 00:30:56.300 We have the tools, we have the knowledge, we have the resources. 00:30:56.580 --> 00:31:02.020 Our, our specific problem was the people we were targeting didn't know how to use them because 00:31:02.020 --> 00:31:05.340 they never had to, because they would come to the building and the buildings, you know, 00:31:05.340 --> 00:31:06.800 until March we're, we're shutting down. 00:31:06.800 --> 00:31:10.260 And I think you give, I think you give a great point there. 00:31:10.260 --> 00:31:11.580 And I would even add to that Leonardo. 00:31:11.580 --> 00:31:15.720 And I've talked about on the podcast before my mom, 70 something, uh, I'm not allowed to 00:31:15.720 --> 00:31:16.440 say the age publicly. 00:31:16.440 --> 00:31:21.720 She's asked me not to, uh, but the heart of it is my mom leads like two or three online 00:31:21.720 --> 00:31:22.460 small groups. 00:31:22.600 --> 00:31:29.640 My mom's led online small groups for years, uh, has multiple relationships, multiple groups. 00:31:29.640 --> 00:31:32.720 Some of the stuff that she's doing in digital ministry is phenomenal. 00:31:33.140 --> 00:31:38.460 My mom struggles to print every couple of weeks and still doesn't really understand how to 00:31:38.460 --> 00:31:39.700 utilize the remote control. 00:31:39.820 --> 00:31:43.640 So like, it's, it's not that she's a technological wizard in what she's doing. 00:31:43.800 --> 00:31:44.640 I'm adopted. 00:31:44.640 --> 00:31:49.280 And so like the genetics don't pass from, from mom to me, but the, the heart of this really 00:31:49.280 --> 00:31:55.020 is she sees the potential of, of, of reaching and discipling these people. 00:31:55.160 --> 00:31:59.020 You know, when I convinced my mom, I was actually a digital pastor that recruited my mom 00:31:59.020 --> 00:32:03.600 to start teaching online small groups and, and, and it wasn't, Hey mom, there's this new 00:32:03.600 --> 00:32:04.240 technology. 00:32:04.480 --> 00:32:07.760 Hey mom, you get to stare at people face to face from around the country. 00:32:08.640 --> 00:32:13.620 It was, Hey mom, I, she was a, a, a, a retired business professional. 00:32:14.200 --> 00:32:17.740 Hey mom, uh, I've got a lawyer, a girl studying to be a lawyer. 00:32:17.740 --> 00:32:19.420 I've got a girl studying to be a doctor. 00:32:19.600 --> 00:32:22.440 Uh, I've got a girl that's operating currently as a CPA. 00:32:22.980 --> 00:32:25.960 She's, she's getting her CPA certifications. 00:32:26.400 --> 00:32:30.280 So I've got three women, uh, mid twenties, young professionals. 00:32:30.780 --> 00:32:31.900 Uh, they need mentoring. 00:32:31.980 --> 00:32:32.900 They need discipleship. 00:32:33.300 --> 00:32:34.400 You want to take a crack at it? 00:32:34.640 --> 00:32:36.740 And it, and it was, it wasn't the technology. 00:32:36.740 --> 00:32:38.440 It was a ministry that wooed my mom over. 00:32:38.840 --> 00:32:41.220 And to the point, that's what she's, she's doing now. 00:32:41.260 --> 00:32:41.880 It's interesting. 00:32:41.880 --> 00:32:48.700 One of the, one of the small groups that she's actually leading is a, um, it's four women. 00:32:49.220 --> 00:32:50.000 My mom's age. 00:32:50.140 --> 00:32:53.440 So it's four women in their sixties and seventies. 00:32:53.960 --> 00:32:57.680 And it's the daughters, four daughters of the four women. 00:32:57.940 --> 00:33:02.660 Now it's interesting is the four daughters are mixed in age and they're scattered all over 00:33:02.660 --> 00:33:03.120 the country. 00:33:03.380 --> 00:33:07.000 So it's four moms in Miami and four daughters scattered all over. 00:33:07.160 --> 00:33:12.200 But what's happening is, is when these women gather together, the mothers and the daughters, 00:33:12.680 --> 00:33:17.980 really the only time they're connecting through the span of the weeks and months is in my mom's 00:33:17.980 --> 00:33:18.600 Bible study. 00:33:18.840 --> 00:33:20.740 Where they're talking about the Bible. 00:33:20.740 --> 00:33:25.940 So the thing that brings these mothers and daughters together is literally the word of 00:33:25.940 --> 00:33:26.220 God. 00:33:26.680 --> 00:33:32.440 And this is something that you can never do in a, in a physical only because these women, 00:33:32.540 --> 00:33:34.880 these, these daughters are scattered all over the country. 00:33:34.880 --> 00:33:39.040 You're not going to get them in the same space, but you're able to foster those relationships, 00:33:39.220 --> 00:33:43.120 build a community, strengthen the, the, the mother daughter bond. 00:33:43.120 --> 00:33:45.840 And I'll send it around the gospel and the Bible. 00:33:45.840 --> 00:33:47.760 Like it's, it's this beautiful concept. 00:33:47.760 --> 00:33:51.220 And what's fascinating is I asked my mom one day, I was like, this is the best idea I've 00:33:51.220 --> 00:33:52.500 ever heard for an online small group. 00:33:52.500 --> 00:33:54.420 Like I tell everybody and their mother about this. 00:33:54.820 --> 00:33:56.940 And I was like, Hey mom, where'd, where'd you come up with this? 00:33:56.940 --> 00:33:58.420 And she's like, I just prayed about it. 00:33:58.420 --> 00:33:59.640 And God kind of brought it to mind. 00:33:59.780 --> 00:34:01.800 And I'll tell God, you need to pray more. 00:34:01.800 --> 00:34:06.940 Cause like, this is, this is really good stuff, but there's a, there's a potential to go beyond 00:34:06.940 --> 00:34:11.640 really what these buildings are for, for people that have imagination. 00:34:12.420 --> 00:34:17.720 Um, and, and that imagination might even extend the reach of the church in, you know, you know, 00:34:17.720 --> 00:34:19.040 I'm hearing words like recession. 00:34:19.040 --> 00:34:20.580 I know there's economic issues. 00:34:20.580 --> 00:34:21.980 I'm paying way too much for gas. 00:34:22.220 --> 00:34:23.840 Like the writing's on the wall. 00:34:24.340 --> 00:34:25.780 Um, we're going to need to pivot. 00:34:25.840 --> 00:34:26.800 We're going to need to shift. 00:34:26.800 --> 00:34:30.580 Uh, and, and digital is a completely viable option for that. 00:34:30.860 --> 00:34:32.720 Yeah, no, you're, you're, you're absolutely right. 00:34:32.800 --> 00:34:36.540 I'm working on a piece right now that I'm going to have to finish tomorrow where this 00:34:36.540 --> 00:34:43.560 pastor was offering gas cards to help people to come to church because the gas is so high. 00:34:43.560 --> 00:34:48.860 People worry about the distance they have to travel to go to church. 00:34:49.500 --> 00:34:59.920 Um, I think also that, um, the idea about your mom is amazing because churches can identify 00:34:59.920 --> 00:35:09.600 people like your mom who are among their congregation to be ambassadors, to help spread the gospel 00:35:09.600 --> 00:35:18.080 through technology, to help spread the gospel to members who might be stubborn, who might be 00:35:18.080 --> 00:35:23.800 resistant to the change or the shift to, you know, and connect. 00:35:23.800 --> 00:35:30.920 And I, I, um, one of the reasons why I, I, I, a lot of this feels a little bit seamless 00:35:30.920 --> 00:35:37.400 to me, you know, prior to coming to the Christian post, I worked on a project in New York city 00:35:37.400 --> 00:35:39.560 called age friendly New York city. 00:35:39.560 --> 00:35:49.560 So we were tracking, um, all this data that showed that by 2030, they would have more older adults 00:35:49.560 --> 00:35:56.420 in America than, uh, you know, children, 18 or, or younger or something to that effect. 00:35:56.580 --> 00:36:04.580 So we were preparing for, uh, uh, you know, the, the, the, the preponderance of older adults 00:36:04.580 --> 00:36:05.260 in the city. 00:36:05.260 --> 00:36:11.940 We're trying to make things more accessible and we worked, uh, we worked with, uh, uh, an 00:36:11.940 --> 00:36:16.740 organization called older adults, older adults, technology services. 00:36:16.740 --> 00:36:24.180 So we were doing a lot of research and going through and making sure that businesses, schools, 00:36:24.180 --> 00:36:31.940 colleges, that they were prepared to serve this market and to help them transition to live better 00:36:31.940 --> 00:36:32.500 lives. 00:36:32.500 --> 00:36:36.300 And churches need to be a part of this. 00:36:36.300 --> 00:36:38.580 Churches have to be a part of this. 00:36:38.580 --> 00:36:44.180 We, we, we, we have to keep older adults connected, right? 00:36:44.500 --> 00:36:50.980 And, and, and that's where I think, um, you know, a lot of these churches with resources, 00:36:50.980 --> 00:37:01.540 if you are going to be future proof, if you want to survive, you have to stay connected to 00:37:01.540 --> 00:37:10.320 the people who are your most ardent supporters and, and then, you know, find ways to, to, 00:37:10.460 --> 00:37:19.120 to make, to make the transition, uh, uh, an intergenerational movement, you know, cause 00:37:19.120 --> 00:37:20.500 that is going to be key. 00:37:20.500 --> 00:37:26.040 And, and that's, that's one of the things that we talked about in that age friendly New 00:37:26.040 --> 00:37:32.860 York city project was to get older adults, to connect more with younger people because 00:37:32.860 --> 00:37:38.680 you, you know, not every older adult has a child, not every older adult has grandkids 00:37:38.680 --> 00:37:45.220 that they are interacting with every day to help them to, to stay connected to, to where, 00:37:45.220 --> 00:37:47.220 uh, you know, the future is trending. 00:37:47.220 --> 00:37:53.560 So, and, and, and that's where churches, I think churches can play a very critical role 00:37:53.560 --> 00:37:54.280 at this point. 00:37:54.660 --> 00:37:54.780 Yeah. 00:37:54.900 --> 00:37:55.600 I love it. 00:37:55.640 --> 00:37:56.960 It's, and it's, it's interesting. 00:37:57.080 --> 00:37:58.960 You use the word ambassador. 00:37:59.140 --> 00:38:02.540 Uh, I believe, you know, we've, we've talked, you know, in church planning circles, it's, 00:38:02.580 --> 00:38:06.820 it's the person of peace, find the person that's, that's familiar with the community that you 00:38:06.820 --> 00:38:07.840 want to get involved with. 00:38:07.840 --> 00:38:12.120 And, and, and, I mean, there's the whole biblical, you can unpack that, but you know, the E in, 00:38:12.120 --> 00:38:17.080 in digital space, you know, we talk about, um, you know, finding that person of peace, 00:38:17.080 --> 00:38:21.960 maybe like in your church to get you exposed into, into new areas, like, uh, cornerstone 00:38:21.960 --> 00:38:24.760 church, Yuba city, Jason polling was to my knowledge. 00:38:24.760 --> 00:38:29.640 He was the first pastor to lead a physical church as well as a metaverse church at the 00:38:29.640 --> 00:38:30.160 same time. 00:38:30.680 --> 00:38:33.920 DJ has been doing it a long time longer, but he was only virtual reality. 00:38:34.040 --> 00:38:35.340 He was not physical. 00:38:35.500 --> 00:38:37.880 Jason, I believe at least nobody's proved me. 00:38:37.920 --> 00:38:40.720 Otherwise, Jason was the first to do both. 00:38:40.800 --> 00:38:45.240 And it's interesting, Jason's story about how he got into the metaverse, Jason didn't 00:38:45.240 --> 00:38:46.480 even know how to spell VR. 00:38:46.700 --> 00:38:48.300 Like he had no understanding whatsoever. 00:38:49.220 --> 00:38:54.200 And, uh, two people like in his church, one of, one of his elder board and one of his key 00:38:54.200 --> 00:38:59.080 volunteers came up to him and said, Hey, we want to, we want to help you get into the 00:38:59.080 --> 00:38:59.380 metaverse. 00:38:59.480 --> 00:39:01.480 We want to help launch a church in the metaverse. 00:39:02.120 --> 00:39:06.580 And, um, you know, Jason went from buying a headset to launching a church in the metaverse 00:39:06.580 --> 00:39:07.700 in months. 00:39:07.700 --> 00:39:10.000 Like I was like six to eight months, I believe. 00:39:10.520 --> 00:39:14.880 Uh, very quick turnaround, but because he had the person of peace, he had the ambassadors 00:39:14.880 --> 00:39:19.540 to really start to expand ideas and, and, and get into different areas. 00:39:19.540 --> 00:39:24.100 And a lot of people, you know, they're like, we don't really understand, you know, they try 00:39:24.100 --> 00:39:29.300 broadcasting the services in, uh, and which is nice, uh, because that's like the physical 00:39:29.300 --> 00:39:30.540 example of what church is. 00:39:30.600 --> 00:39:34.400 Hey, let's broadcast the services that one hour on Sunday and maybe we'll open up some 00:39:34.400 --> 00:39:34.760 chat. 00:39:34.760 --> 00:39:39.320 Like that's, that's, that's the closest to what physical church is, I guess, in digital 00:39:39.320 --> 00:39:39.940 context. 00:39:40.240 --> 00:39:46.140 But really when we get people that understand like how digital works, uh, understand how 00:39:46.140 --> 00:39:51.620 metaverse works, uh, when we find these persons of peace, maybe they start to expose us to 00:39:51.620 --> 00:39:56.580 some new ideas and they have maybe a larger imagination for what could be even beyond what 00:39:56.580 --> 00:39:59.300 we as, as pastors and ministers have. 00:39:59.480 --> 00:40:05.380 And all of a sudden we're understanding that, man, we're getting exposed or the options here is going to expose 00:40:05.380 --> 00:40:11.000 us more within these platforms, more within these communities, uh, than we could before. 00:40:11.060 --> 00:40:15.740 Like, you know, I'm, I mentioned earlier and, and, and I know, uh, Andre was one of the guys that was 00:40:15.740 --> 00:40:16.760 mentioned in your article. 00:40:17.760 --> 00:40:20.400 Uh, uh, barbecue church is a, uh, barbecue church is a thing. 00:40:20.500 --> 00:40:25.160 I remember the first time Andre told me about this church and I'm like, that's either the stupid. 00:40:25.240 --> 00:40:29.640 I literally, I told him, I was like, that's either the stupidest or the most ingenious idea I ever 00:40:29.640 --> 00:40:36.240 heard. Uh, but you have to do it because you're, his passion is going to connect them with people 00:40:36.240 --> 00:40:42.660 that would not otherwise be connected. And it could bridge over into something more. And so we're, 00:40:42.660 --> 00:40:49.860 we're seeing time and time again, that even finding persons of peace in the barbecue community and how 00:40:49.860 --> 00:40:55.800 that feeds into connecting people into Jesus in a discipleship process that's multiplying like this, 00:40:55.800 --> 00:41:02.000 it seems silly, but we're finding that these purses of pieces, even in unique communities like barbecue, 00:41:02.000 --> 00:41:08.740 uh, are, are giving opportunities for people to engage in a church that they would not otherwise engage in. 00:41:08.740 --> 00:41:14.740 Yeah. One of the things I really, really like, um, just, just, just you bring it up, Cornerstone, uh, 00:41:14.760 --> 00:41:19.540 Yuba City, uh, and just talking about barbecue church. I remember when we were doing that interview, 00:41:19.540 --> 00:41:27.480 we talked about the unshackling of the gospel and what the disruption of the digital, uh, technology 00:41:27.480 --> 00:41:37.380 has, has done, you know, people need to, to really open up their minds and understand that the gospel 00:41:37.380 --> 00:41:45.340 is not just one thing. Like it's, it's, it's, it's the power, right? But it can be served in so many 00:41:45.340 --> 00:41:51.880 different ways by so many different people. And you, you, you, you, you know, I, um, I, um, 00:41:51.880 --> 00:41:59.200 Chesley talked about, you know, the new wine, you know, uh, about this, uh, this, this digital 00:41:59.200 --> 00:42:06.960 church, uh, transformation is a bit like new wine and people are just going to have to try to connect 00:42:06.960 --> 00:42:15.500 the word to that movement. Um, and I was like pretty, I, I, I love the fact that you brought up 00:42:15.500 --> 00:42:23.480 Cornerstone Church, Yuba City, and you, you pointed out the, the, the, the, the, the, the distinction 00:42:23.480 --> 00:42:32.880 between churches who are just trying something. They're just streaming the service in sort of a 00:42:32.880 --> 00:42:40.180 generic VR room, right? At Cornerstone, they have, you know, looked at their website, they have a 00:42:40.180 --> 00:42:49.780 dedicated team, right? That is focused on the VR church. And when you go there, it feels so engaging, 00:42:50.460 --> 00:42:55.940 you know, they, there's a, there's a sanctuary, you worship there, and then they move you across to this, 00:42:55.940 --> 00:43:05.220 you know, outdoor world, uh, where the, the, the, the, the avatar of the pastor actually speaks 00:43:05.220 --> 00:43:12.760 and connects. And, you know, it feels, you know, like a real church. It comes with the same 00:43:12.760 --> 00:43:19.160 intimidation that you might feel if you're a shy person, uh, of, of going somewhere, you, you don't 00:43:19.160 --> 00:43:25.440 know anyone and you're going to have to have a conversation. So I, I really think that people 00:43:25.440 --> 00:43:35.960 need to, you know, just acknowledge that there is a, you know, a tremendous transition taking place 00:43:35.960 --> 00:43:42.820 right now and, you know, try to learn because if you refuse to learn, you're only going to be harming 00:43:42.820 --> 00:43:48.920 yourself. Yeah. I mean, at, at this point it's let's, let's go with the goers. You know, that's, 00:43:48.960 --> 00:43:52.560 that's a phrase that I say a lot, those that, that are experimenting, we're, we're going to go with 00:43:52.560 --> 00:43:57.940 them. Um, and, and we're, we're going to help them on the journey, uh, because, uh, not a lot of 00:43:57.940 --> 00:44:01.800 people are helping them on their journey. Let's, let's just be honest. But, you know, the heart, 00:44:01.860 --> 00:44:08.980 the heart of this is, is that I listen is when we talk about the, you know, the theology of the 00:44:08.980 --> 00:44:16.100 metaverse, virtual reality, uh, the ecclesiology, how this works is, is, is God approving of this? 00:44:16.100 --> 00:44:19.900 Is God not? I don't, I don't, I don't know. Like, I'm just going to be honest right here on this 00:44:19.900 --> 00:44:26.100 podcast. Um, I, I, I, I, I feel like God's approving. I feel like I'm seeing God working through 00:44:26.100 --> 00:44:30.840 these situations. And when I talk with people in the midst of it, like we, we, we agree that we're, 00:44:30.840 --> 00:44:36.720 we're seeing God move, but I will, I will stand before God one day. Uh, and, and I will either 00:44:36.720 --> 00:44:42.180 apologize for offending him with some of the stuff that we're doing or hopefully hear well done and 00:44:42.180 --> 00:44:47.100 good and faithful servant by helping others try to think outside the box. Um, you know, I don't, 00:44:47.180 --> 00:44:52.020 I don't want to invalidate what's happening in this physical space as, as much as encourage 00:44:52.020 --> 00:44:58.640 the experimenters to experiment today so that we can, can learn tomorrow. It's, it's interesting. I was, 00:44:58.640 --> 00:45:05.200 we were actually, I was on another show just, just talking about this, but, um, uh, the, uh, 00:45:05.200 --> 00:45:09.960 the printing press Gutenberg Gutenberg was actually criticized. The printing press was considered 00:45:09.960 --> 00:45:18.060 satanic at the time because well-meaning scribes who would sit in these rooms and, and, and write 00:45:18.060 --> 00:45:23.960 by hand the scriptures day by day, week by week, month by month, year by year, the printing press 00:45:23.960 --> 00:45:31.540 basically made them useless. They, they invalidated their existence. They were unemployed. Uh, and, and many 00:45:31.540 --> 00:45:39.880 people at the time of the printing press, um, were, were like heretic, uh, on, on Gutenberg in his 00:45:39.880 --> 00:45:46.960 invention. Now, I mean, 2020, like that's ridiculous. No one believes that, that, that, you know, 00:45:47.020 --> 00:45:52.640 Gutenberg was, was, uh, was used by Satan in that moment. As a matter of fact, many people would 00:45:52.640 --> 00:45:59.440 cite him as, as, you know, the part of one of the first revivals, one of the largest, um, you know, 00:45:59.500 --> 00:46:05.340 reveled, biblical revolutions, not biblical, but Christian revolutions in, in, in relative modern 00:46:05.340 --> 00:46:11.480 era. Uh, and so like the idea that it's, that it's, uh, satanic, that it's a heretic, that's, 00:46:11.520 --> 00:46:16.700 that's weird. It's interesting. Like even Helen Keller said this quote before, uh, today's heresy 00:46:16.700 --> 00:46:23.580 is tomorrow's orthodoxy. What we consider heretical today is, is going to be quite accepted tomorrow. 00:46:23.580 --> 00:46:29.300 And, and, and, and I do believe that in the digital and metaverse space, I think that we're 00:46:29.300 --> 00:46:33.300 very much on the bleeding edge. Leonardo, some of the stuff that you've talked about, some of the 00:46:33.300 --> 00:46:38.140 stuff that we're doing within DCN that was highlighted in that article. Um, yeah, it's, 00:46:38.140 --> 00:46:43.680 it's borderline heretical by common standards today, but when you actually not look at heresy 00:46:43.680 --> 00:46:49.500 outside of extra biblical, outside of the biblical, but actually look at what the Bible is saying, 00:46:49.500 --> 00:46:55.140 I don't really think we are. I think this is another example of Gutenberg's press where 00:46:55.140 --> 00:47:00.860 the, the expectations are of one thing, but the reality of what the Bible calls us to do 00:47:00.860 --> 00:47:06.520 is another. And we're actually following that in these digital and metaverse churches. So 00:47:06.520 --> 00:47:13.380 stay tuned. Um, Hey, let me ask this, what do you, and I just kind of went off on a diatribe right 00:47:13.380 --> 00:47:18.680 there. Where do you see the, let me ask you the question, where do you see the church going in, 00:47:18.680 --> 00:47:22.780 in five years? Like where, where do you, where do you, what do you think the future is going to hold 00:47:22.780 --> 00:47:27.300 as we're looking at more of these digital and metaverse expressions of church, internet pastors, 00:47:27.440 --> 00:47:30.920 a lot of the stuff that you've been brainstorming. What do you think 2030 looks like? 00:47:30.920 --> 00:47:40.200 I think, uh, I'm glad that you, you touched on digital church network. I, I'm glad that there is 00:47:40.200 --> 00:47:49.860 a network like digital church network, because it actually tells me that there is a collective group 00:47:49.860 --> 00:47:57.980 of people who are actually thinking about the future. And I, I, I, I, I feel like, you know, 00:47:57.980 --> 00:48:04.580 there's so many churches across the country there, you know, that have their tentacles connected to 00:48:04.580 --> 00:48:14.900 local governments and, and all this work. I, I, I, I think there are, if the church wants to survive, 00:48:14.900 --> 00:48:22.500 if the church wants to, you know, not have one lost sheep out there, because we got to remember that, 00:48:22.500 --> 00:48:30.780 uh, you know, Jesus left the 99 and went to search, search for the one sheep, you know, the, the church 00:48:30.780 --> 00:48:41.600 is right now going through a very, very difficult transition. And there is a threat to older adults. 00:48:41.600 --> 00:48:51.580 There is a threat to our young people. And what we need to be doing is exactly what digital church 00:48:51.580 --> 00:48:59.700 network is doing. We need people, everybody that's connected to, uh, Christendom, whether you're, 00:48:59.700 --> 00:49:06.620 um, whether you're a, a, a, a, a seminary, whether you're, uh, you know, a denomination, 00:49:07.280 --> 00:49:17.200 whatever it is that you do, everybody needs to find ways and means to collaborate and ask themselves 00:49:17.200 --> 00:49:25.320 the question, how are we going to survive? Because we cannot, I don't think we can adopt 00:49:25.320 --> 00:49:35.600 a capitalistic, uh, mindset to the church by saying, okay, if you want to get left behind, 00:49:35.700 --> 00:49:44.960 that's your problem, or we're just going to go. We have to keep talking. We have to keep pushing until 00:49:44.960 --> 00:49:53.200 they hear, you know, preach and preach and preach. You have new wine. DCN is DCN has been given the new 00:49:53.200 --> 00:50:02.060 wine, right? A lot of the other players that the younger folks have been given this new wine. Now it 00:50:02.060 --> 00:50:12.440 is up to us to do what we must to make sure that everybody that needs to survive. Some people, 00:50:12.560 --> 00:50:19.100 we're going to have to take them by force, you know, because the truth is churches are shutting down 00:50:19.100 --> 00:50:27.660 and a lot of people no longer have church homes. Uh, COVID decimated a lot of congregations, even with, 00:50:27.660 --> 00:50:36.860 uh, uh, the, the, the, the paycheck protection and all that effort to, to save them, they still lost, 00:50:36.860 --> 00:50:45.980 right? So, so we're going to have to figure out creative ways to connect and it's happening online, 00:50:45.980 --> 00:50:53.600 right? We need, we, we, we need those old mothers. We need those old fathers. We need everybody, 00:50:53.600 --> 00:51:00.080 you know, because we, we can't have, you know, just people who are entertaining because the church is 00:51:00.080 --> 00:51:05.540 not just about entertainment. The church is about worship. You know, the church is about, you know, 00:51:05.640 --> 00:51:12.920 uh, saving people. And, and, and that's that there's a lot of saving that needs to be done right now. 00:51:13.260 --> 00:51:21.920 A lot of saving. The young people are in trouble. The old people are in trouble. So DCN, um, listen, 00:51:22.100 --> 00:51:29.580 I'm, I'm glad you had that metaverse church summit. It's the start of a conversation, but we need to be 00:51:29.580 --> 00:51:38.160 doing more because we need Barna. We need Pew. We need, we need everybody who is connected to track 00:51:38.160 --> 00:51:46.500 in the church to come together and say, Hey, we have a problem. Are we in this to keep people saved 00:51:46.500 --> 00:51:53.260 and, and, and spread the gospel to others who need it? Or are we just thinking about dollar signs, 00:51:53.900 --> 00:52:03.140 right? God, I, I really believe that if God has given a purpose to, uh, you, you know, people who 00:52:03.140 --> 00:52:07.660 know, like you have this knowledge, you've been in the, you've been in the trenches for a long time, 00:52:07.720 --> 00:52:14.120 Jeff, you have been preaching this gospel for a long time. You know, Noah, remember Noah was building 00:52:14.120 --> 00:52:20.300 that ark for a long time and warning people, Hey, it's going to rain. It's going to rain. It's going to 00:52:20.300 --> 00:52:30.500 rain. And nobody believed him. Right. Until the flood came, you know, so there is a flood right now. 00:52:30.500 --> 00:52:38.300 And people, people might, because we're all so siloed into our individual bubbles, we don't see it, 00:52:38.640 --> 00:52:44.560 but I'm seeing it every single day because I have a bird's eye view. I'm staring at the data as a 00:52:44.560 --> 00:52:52.760 journalist every single day. And it's scary. It's really, really scary. So, so yeah, the future is what 00:52:52.760 --> 00:53:01.740 we, I believe, I don't want to preach gloom and doom. I believe that if, if we believe that God is able to do 00:53:01.740 --> 00:53:10.780 exceedingly abundantly above all that we can ask or think, um, the future is in our hands. The future is going 00:53:10.780 --> 00:53:17.580 to be what we make of it. And so pastors are going to need to stand up. Uh, seminary leaders are going to need 00:53:17.580 --> 00:53:25.240 to stand up, uh, denominational, you know, heads are going to need to stand up and say, Hey, uh, how are 00:53:25.240 --> 00:53:31.540 we going to do this? How are we going to keep, um, you know, the church together? And, and, and there's 00:53:31.540 --> 00:53:36.480 a way to do it that we've been talking about. That's, that's, that's beautiful. Um, well, you know, 00:53:36.480 --> 00:53:43.040 thank you for the encouragement. I think that, um, it's, it's been an honor through DCN and, and, and I love 00:53:43.040 --> 00:53:47.460 the fact that, that you featured Chesley and I in the article as much as you did, like just that, 00:53:47.580 --> 00:53:54.180 that meant a lot. Um, and it has, it's funny, my, my friends, the, the Noah example, my friends in 00:53:54.180 --> 00:53:58.620 March, 2020, they actually called me Noah. Uh, like I, it's funny. I still have some of those tweets 00:53:58.620 --> 00:54:02.580 saved because it's just, it's like, Hey, this is your, this is your season. You were, you were, you were, 00:54:02.680 --> 00:54:07.440 you were talking about this for so long. And, uh, and it was such a rough journey to be honest, 00:54:07.440 --> 00:54:11.580 but, uh, coming out of this, it was the, it was the validation where we're seeing it. We're seeing 00:54:11.580 --> 00:54:15.580 that this model works. Yeah, it's different, uh, but different isn't bad. Different gets 00:54:15.580 --> 00:54:21.220 different results and it reaches different people, which is what we're, we're learning time and time 00:54:21.220 --> 00:54:25.980 again, even as we're looking at more of these expressions of digital churches. Uh, but thank 00:54:25.980 --> 00:54:32.000 you for, you know, for taking the time for, uh, for seeing opportunities for looking at that data 00:54:32.000 --> 00:54:38.380 and, um, and, and, and, and being one of these guys talking from the rooftops. So, uh, we need, 00:54:38.380 --> 00:54:42.260 we need more of you and it's, it's interesting that metaverse church summit, you know, that, 00:54:42.380 --> 00:54:47.680 that brought a lot of, uh, speaking opportunities for, for me as well. A lot of radio news sources, 00:54:47.680 --> 00:54:54.460 uh, other articles and, um, you know, God bless even leadership network and some of their forward 00:54:54.460 --> 00:54:59.980 thinking, uh, on a lot of this metaverse church stuff, just to try to challenge preconceived norms. 00:54:59.980 --> 00:55:06.340 And the heart of all of this is just that we don't want to say anything's bad. I really don't think 00:55:06.340 --> 00:55:10.560 the brick and mortar is bad. I think the brick and mortar is necessary to reach a different type of 00:55:10.560 --> 00:55:16.260 person. Uh, but if we're trying to complete the great commission and we think that the building is 00:55:16.260 --> 00:55:21.660 the one that's going to get it there, I have some serious issues with that, especially given the 00:55:21.660 --> 00:55:26.920 recession we're walking into and other things, because I just, I know what that does to economies. 00:55:27.180 --> 00:55:32.780 And, um, I'm not sure the brick and mortar is going to be the effective model or the only model that's 00:55:32.780 --> 00:55:37.860 going to be effective moving forward. And so you bring in light to that has been awesome. So thank 00:55:37.860 --> 00:55:41.580 you for that. Hey, as we're going to, we're going to land the plane, but as we're wrapping up here, 00:55:41.580 --> 00:55:46.740 uh, Leonardo, any, any closing thoughts? Uh, let's do this together. That's, that's, 00:55:46.740 --> 00:55:54.220 that's my closing thought. Um, I, I, I really, I really believe that, um, the church is going to have 00:55:54.220 --> 00:56:00.480 to work together everybody and listen to the people with the new wine. Listen to the people who are 00:56:00.480 --> 00:56:08.480 telling you numbers. Don't lie. Pay attention to the data. Churches are closing. It is unsustainable. 00:56:08.480 --> 00:56:16.840 Even if you love your church, if the people aren't, if the young people aren't there to do the work, 00:56:16.840 --> 00:56:23.020 to do the ministries that you want to do, if, if they're not going to be there to pay the tithe and 00:56:23.020 --> 00:56:30.700 whatever it is that you, however it is that you, um, gain income to sustain the church, then you're 00:56:30.700 --> 00:56:35.080 going to have to get back to the drawing board and, um, you know, do something new. 00:56:35.640 --> 00:56:44.080 Incredible. So, Hey, you can see Leonardo, uh, Blair over on, uh, christianpost.com. Uh, and so, uh, 00:56:44.080 --> 00:56:48.140 definitely check out his articles. We'll put a couple of links in the show notes, the ones we talked 00:56:48.140 --> 00:56:52.720 about. Leonardo, I mean, if anybody else is interested in keeping up with you, what, what are the best ways 00:56:52.720 --> 00:56:59.400 to, uh, to reach out or to connect? Yeah, I'm, I'm on Twitter at Leo Blair. Um, and, uh, you know, 00:56:59.400 --> 00:57:06.140 the information is there on christianpost.com. Uh, my, my, my handles are all there, uh, with my bio 00:57:06.140 --> 00:57:12.040 under all my stories. So, yeah. Perfect. So follow the link in the show notes and, and you'll get 00:57:12.040 --> 00:57:16.860 there. And that sounds like a plan. So Leonardo, thank you for being our guest and jumping on, 00:57:16.920 --> 00:57:21.960 on the podcast, but we're going to wrap up, uh, for Leonardo. This is Jeff, uh, with, uh, Digital 00:57:21.960 --> 00:57:26.040 Church Network, the Church Digital Leadership Network, and a bunch of other fun stuff. Uh, thanks for 00:57:26.040 --> 00:57:29.360 jumping on the podcast here and we'll see you next time on the show. Y'all have a good day. 00:57:29.400 --> 00:57:59.380 Thank you.