WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:06.300 We were never meant to be under some form of Levitical control. 00:00:07.680 --> 00:00:11.020 There's a difference between accountability and control. 00:00:11.180 --> 00:00:14.460 And so you ask, how do they release control? 00:00:14.580 --> 00:00:18.560 And I would say, well, they either release it or it will be taken from them. 00:00:19.200 --> 00:00:20.520 Welcome to the Church Digital Podcast. 00:00:21.240 --> 00:00:25.300 Through this podcast, we'll talk about the technological innovations within the church. 00:00:25.440 --> 00:00:29.800 But more than tech or tech itself, we'll address deeper questions. 00:00:30.620 --> 00:00:32.480 Is disciple-making possible digitally? 00:00:33.540 --> 00:00:35.500 How should we approach the digital mission field? 00:00:36.280 --> 00:00:39.040 Can a biblically grounded church operate in digital space? 00:00:39.760 --> 00:00:42.080 Oh, and where does the metaverse fit into all this? 00:00:42.580 --> 00:00:47.080 Whether you're a big or small church, an established church, or a startup church plant, 00:00:47.800 --> 00:00:52.720 the Church Digital's goal is to help churches like yours learn to be a multiplying church, 00:00:53.320 --> 00:00:54.720 digitally and physically. 00:00:55.480 --> 00:01:00.040 our heart, that churches like yours will discover a newfound focus on disciple-making 00:01:00.040 --> 00:01:02.380 that will revolutionize your church. 00:01:02.860 --> 00:01:05.700 And now, here's your host, Jeff Reed. 00:01:06.100 --> 00:01:06.640 Hey, everybody. 00:01:06.740 --> 00:01:08.860 Welcome to the Church Digital Podcast. 00:01:09.400 --> 00:01:11.120 Looking forward to this conversation here. 00:01:11.220 --> 00:01:15.100 I got Taylor McCall coming up here in just a second. 00:01:15.240 --> 00:01:18.020 But before we get there, let me tell you a little bit about FAM. 00:01:18.140 --> 00:01:20.280 FAM is Digital Church Network. 00:01:20.480 --> 00:01:21.880 It's our online community. 00:01:22.300 --> 00:01:24.860 Hey, we've been doing great at creating content. 00:01:25.300 --> 00:01:27.900 But in digital space, content is nothing without community. 00:01:28.100 --> 00:01:32.040 And so our heart is to create a community where we're connecting together digital pastors, 00:01:32.620 --> 00:01:36.140 planters, and practitioners from literally all over the globe at this point, 00:01:36.560 --> 00:01:40.740 coming together to ask questions, to learn about digital ministry, digital discipleship, 00:01:41.100 --> 00:01:43.360 maybe some outside-of-the-box thinking. 00:01:43.360 --> 00:01:47.360 And we're going to get a lot of outside-of-the-box thinking in this podcast today coming up. 00:01:47.680 --> 00:01:50.760 But if you're not part of FAM, I want to challenge you right now. 00:01:51.200 --> 00:01:51.740 Jump in. 00:01:51.860 --> 00:01:52.420 It's free. 00:01:52.560 --> 00:01:56.940 It's a great opportunity to connect with some pastors, some planters, people who are thinking 00:01:56.940 --> 00:02:01.040 and asking the same questions that you are and working through it together. 00:02:01.240 --> 00:02:04.560 Not to mention the training and the resources that we've got there is incredible. 00:02:04.960 --> 00:02:05.780 So what are you doing? 00:02:05.980 --> 00:02:07.100 Okay, finish the podcast. 00:02:07.360 --> 00:02:08.560 Definitely don't go there. 00:02:08.620 --> 00:02:15.880 Well, maybe you can use your other device to go there now, but go to famfam.digitalchurch.network 00:02:15.880 --> 00:02:21.820 and get connected to the family, to your new family over there, part of Digital Church Network. 00:02:22.160 --> 00:02:23.720 And so, hey, that was it. 00:02:24.140 --> 00:02:28.660 By the way, Taylor, the most awkward part of the podcast is right here where I have to transition 00:02:28.660 --> 00:02:31.260 from the commercial to the actual interview. 00:02:31.480 --> 00:02:35.600 And so I've done this like six or seven times in the new format, and each one of them is horrible. 00:02:35.600 --> 00:02:40.860 And so I apologize to you right now for this awkward transition, because I literally don't 00:02:40.860 --> 00:02:41.680 know how to do it better. 00:02:41.860 --> 00:02:44.500 And my producer, Garrett Silji, has yet to give me advice. 00:02:45.000 --> 00:02:46.100 And so here we are. 00:02:46.280 --> 00:02:46.800 That's what we're doing. 00:02:47.360 --> 00:02:50.220 No, seriously, looking forward to this conversation, Taylor. 00:02:50.660 --> 00:02:55.980 Hey, so Taylor, tell us a little bit about your ministry, what you're doing. 00:02:56.320 --> 00:02:58.540 Hey, first of all, great transition. 00:02:59.100 --> 00:03:01.040 Transitions can be hard for anybody. 00:03:01.500 --> 00:03:03.580 So you did it well. 00:03:03.740 --> 00:03:06.180 That's probably your producers just letting you roll with it. 00:03:06.260 --> 00:03:06.940 You're a natural. 00:03:07.940 --> 00:03:11.020 We'll assume the best for now anyway. 00:03:11.220 --> 00:03:12.140 So thank you. 00:03:12.520 --> 00:03:12.780 Yeah. 00:03:12.960 --> 00:03:19.200 Well, so I'm sitting here in downtown Alton, Illinois, just outside of St. Louis, Missouri. 00:03:19.760 --> 00:03:26.220 So we're on the Illinois side, just a few miles from downtown St. Louis. 00:03:26.220 --> 00:03:39.900 And ministry, life's work, dreams all kind of come into one idea of seeing the church manifest 00:03:39.900 --> 00:03:46.540 and work and function as a city within a city, a better city within our cities. 00:03:46.880 --> 00:03:55.040 And so everything centers around that, kind of a serial entrepreneur at heart, been starting 00:03:55.040 --> 00:04:02.180 businesses since I was 12 years old and never been good at making a lot of money, but real 00:04:02.180 --> 00:04:08.700 good at starting businesses and, um, given a lot of them away and, uh, a lot of them have 00:04:08.700 --> 00:04:15.560 failed, but, uh, that kind of came into play, uh, later in life in my ministry journey. 00:04:15.940 --> 00:04:24.320 Um, after over a decade of, of traditional church planting and pastoring, um, we transitioned 00:04:24.320 --> 00:04:29.120 out of that world and more into the world of, uh, building what we call kingdom ecosystems, 00:04:29.120 --> 00:04:38.560 which is the, the core ethic and dream of, of our organization, which is called brave cities. 00:04:39.320 --> 00:04:45.760 Um, and so that's what we're doing now, trying to train church planters and dreamers and visionaries 00:04:45.760 --> 00:04:51.700 and pioneers into, uh, building better cities and seeing the church function as that way. 00:04:51.700 --> 00:04:59.580 Um, uh, uh, not as opposed to the, the prevailing or the traditional model of church, which is 00:04:59.580 --> 00:05:07.240 more of, uh, a worship experience, a service, uh, a gathering space, but, uh, in addition 00:05:07.240 --> 00:05:14.400 to, and maybe a more expanded idea than, uh, what we know as church. 00:05:14.660 --> 00:05:14.740 Yeah. 00:05:14.800 --> 00:05:15.220 Love it. 00:05:15.220 --> 00:05:19.820 By the way, in, in this conversation, um, you know, and, and I want to almost give this as 00:05:19.820 --> 00:05:23.560 a disclaimer up front, Taylor's not a digital guy per se. 00:05:23.860 --> 00:05:28.400 Uh, and so we're not, we're not having this conversation trying to get new digital insight, 00:05:28.400 --> 00:05:34.480 but when he talks about brave cities, when he talks about, uh, these ecosystems, a lot of 00:05:34.480 --> 00:05:40.240 what, what he's talking about is in the physical space, a lot of what I think. 00:05:40.340 --> 00:05:44.600 And when we talk with the, the, the leadership, uh, the groups over at digital church network, 00:05:44.600 --> 00:05:47.040 what we see, uh, the future being. 00:05:47.040 --> 00:05:51.060 And so, you know, we did a similar conversation, uh, you know, I was telling Taylor, I was telling 00:05:51.060 --> 00:05:55.680 off air, we did a similar conversation with Jason Shepard from church project in Houston. 00:05:56.020 --> 00:06:02.160 I don't know, maybe five, six months ago, maybe it was late 21 and a phenomenal conversation. 00:06:02.640 --> 00:06:08.740 And Guy didn't understand digital, like we, we talked about it in the podcast, but the, the framework 00:06:08.740 --> 00:06:14.480 that a lot of the, the micro and the decentralized movements, a lot of what that looks like in 00:06:14.480 --> 00:06:19.800 physical space, uh, especially as we're looking at blockchain and crypto coming in, I think that's 00:06:19.800 --> 00:06:27.240 going to open up an immense opportunity, even in digital to try to, um, I don't know if mirror is 00:06:27.240 --> 00:06:29.780 the right word, but realize some of this kingdom ecosystem. 00:06:30.180 --> 00:06:34.660 And so I, I, I'm looking forward to, to digging into this, uh, a little bit. 00:06:34.720 --> 00:06:37.300 So, so help me here right up front. 00:06:37.320 --> 00:06:40.220 You're talking about kingdom ecosystems. 00:06:40.480 --> 00:06:42.300 What talk to me a little bit about that. 00:06:42.340 --> 00:06:43.360 What, what, what does that mean? 00:06:43.400 --> 00:06:44.400 What do you mean when you say that? 00:06:44.400 --> 00:06:49.940 Can I just say, uh, I wasn't a digital guy until I met Jeffrey. 00:06:51.620 --> 00:06:58.980 And we, we spent hours in an Airbnb with some other fellas, uh, talking kingdom ecosystems 00:06:58.980 --> 00:07:03.040 and talking, uh, church in the digital space. 00:07:03.040 --> 00:07:08.340 And, uh, and there's a couple other guys that I've crossed paths with, uh, that I mentioned 00:07:08.340 --> 00:07:16.400 to Jeff, uh, last time we connected and, uh, my, my, you know, I'm a visionary, uh, at 00:07:16.400 --> 00:07:19.720 least a wannabe and, uh, I want to be pioneer. 00:07:19.720 --> 00:07:25.920 And so anywhere I can see the kingdom growing and manifesting itself in any space, the digital 00:07:25.920 --> 00:07:28.280 space is just another city. 00:07:28.280 --> 00:07:31.080 Now it's just another place where people live. 00:07:31.080 --> 00:07:36.100 And the beautiful thing, if I can kind of, I'll, I'll, I'll show you how to transition. 00:07:36.280 --> 00:07:39.900 Well, I've transitioned into kingdom ecosystems. 00:07:40.380 --> 00:07:48.880 Uh, one of the, one of the elements that's become so clear to us is there's no contextualization 00:07:48.880 --> 00:07:52.360 contextualization of the kingdom ecosystem philosophy. 00:07:52.660 --> 00:07:56.600 There is certainly contextualization of what we call tables. 00:07:56.960 --> 00:08:01.920 And we could talk about that later, but, but we were created in an ecosystem. 00:08:02.480 --> 00:08:09.660 We've lived in an ecosystem for all of our, uh, existence and we will spend our eternity. 00:08:09.660 --> 00:08:14.720 Most of us believe in an ecosystem called the holy city, New Jerusalem. 00:08:14.720 --> 00:08:24.840 And so, uh, the, the city within a city has always been the idea, uh, behind, uh, mankind, 00:08:25.280 --> 00:08:29.240 humanity existing and coexisting and interconnecting together. 00:08:29.640 --> 00:08:39.760 And so, uh, I've seen the beauty of the digital space and how it can kind of inject itself and 00:08:39.760 --> 00:08:47.860 intersect in that space and not just form another, you know, centralized church planting model within 00:08:47.860 --> 00:08:50.780 that space, but also build a city within a city. 00:08:51.040 --> 00:08:55.960 So to, I don't know, to summarize, you asked me, what is a kingdom ecosystem? 00:08:56.820 --> 00:09:13.620 Uh, I would say, uh, for starters, it's a collective of people, uh, who have a vision, uh, who have a, a dream for a certain location, a certain geography or space. 00:09:13.620 --> 00:09:42.360 And they come together to form, uh, what would look like in my space, in my physical space, intentional, uh, living, intentional houses, intentional neighboring to form, uh, intentional market spaces, um, that have a very specific framework and ethic that reigns over it, specifically, uh, the ethic of Jesus and intentional justice works, um, that care and leverage. 00:09:42.360 --> 00:09:57.620 And, um, and, um, and create access and space for the poor, the orphan, the widow within their context, and then creating, uh, innovative ways of connecting the hope of the kingdom in those spaces. 00:09:57.620 --> 00:10:12.340 Nothing new, nothing that's mind blowing, but I think the, I think what's fresh about it is it's the idea of integrating life and ministry and, uh, and. 00:10:12.360 --> 00:10:19.300 In gospel, good news within your everyday rhythms, instead of a separate space, a fourth space outside of that. 00:10:19.300 --> 00:10:40.660 Is this a, is this a, is this a church? Is this a network of churches? Like what's the, because I, we, we understand the word church. I don't think there's a lot of understanding maybe about what happens outside or above. And I know that's a lot of where, where you're spending time. So is this a, is this a, should we call this a network? What, what is this thing actually? 00:10:40.960 --> 00:10:52.720 No, I wouldn't call it a network. And, you know, we're obviously still dreaming and working and listening of what terminology and articulation is going to be like. 00:10:52.720 --> 00:10:57.260 But for me, I want to call it a city. Our organization is called Brave Cities. 00:10:57.680 --> 00:11:04.040 And one of our we're also writing a book right now. And one of our chapters is called Church as City. 00:11:04.680 --> 00:11:14.120 And so the church is the people. Obviously, we all know that our kind of theological framework of church within us, 00:11:14.120 --> 00:11:22.340 even though we see a building and we call a building a church, the theological framework within most of us is the church is the people. 00:11:22.340 --> 00:11:31.380 But the people are building the city. And so the city functions as this ministry space, if you will, 00:11:31.460 --> 00:11:36.420 this organic, incarnational, interconnected ministry space. 00:11:36.600 --> 00:11:46.780 So network is fine. It's a helpful term, but it's limiting because network suggests, in my opinion, 00:11:46.780 --> 00:11:53.220 that everyone is working together for the same end. But that's not always the case within this ecosystem. 00:11:53.860 --> 00:11:56.940 Sometimes there are people that are coming in and out of it. 00:11:57.260 --> 00:12:05.060 Sometimes there are people that are working in it that don't necessarily believe in the end goal of the ecosystem, 00:12:05.060 --> 00:12:12.080 but they're slowly being introduced to the love of Jesus, to the hope of Jesus, to the purpose of the kingdom. 00:12:13.560 --> 00:12:15.320 And so, yeah, we call it Church as City. 00:12:15.740 --> 00:12:22.620 The church is the people that are building and they're trying to build a better city within their city. 00:12:23.720 --> 00:12:31.320 You're going to hear me say that a lot. I mean, we could talk for 10 years and you're going to hear the word city over and over and over, 00:12:31.460 --> 00:12:40.120 because I love the manifestation and the functioning work of an ecosystem. 00:12:40.180 --> 00:12:52.360 And I think if I could just get kind of get into scriptures for just a second, I think we live in a world that is ruled by a power that is not God. 00:12:53.000 --> 00:13:01.960 And we have been given the authority and the power to build a city that is ruled by God within that world. 00:13:02.180 --> 00:13:04.560 That's some pretty high expectations. 00:13:04.860 --> 00:13:15.480 I want to get to that in a little bit, because a city that's ruled by God, I don't know that I've seen that in modern history anywhere. 00:13:15.740 --> 00:13:23.920 You know, and especially in digital space, you know, we talk about how digital is more like a post-Christian, almost, environment. 00:13:24.680 --> 00:13:26.660 And definitely we see post-Christian and Western. 00:13:27.200 --> 00:13:30.200 And so that's a that's a very radical thought. 00:13:30.420 --> 00:13:31.880 But let's let's unpack this first. 00:13:32.000 --> 00:13:33.060 Go ahead. Go talk to me. 00:13:33.280 --> 00:13:35.860 OK, well, just just to be clear. 00:13:37.140 --> 00:13:40.680 We're not you have seen what you haven't seen. 00:13:40.680 --> 00:13:49.900 What you have seen in what no one has ever seen is an empirical city, a Babylonian city that's ruled by God. 00:13:50.200 --> 00:13:51.300 They never can be. 00:13:51.420 --> 00:13:52.520 They're not supposed to be. 00:13:53.200 --> 00:13:57.940 They have been given authority by God to be ruled by powers that aren't God. 00:13:58.940 --> 00:14:02.460 What you have seen are little shadows of the kingdom. 00:14:03.040 --> 00:14:06.280 These little pockets of cities that are ruled by God. 00:14:06.520 --> 00:14:12.160 They're built by God's people to be submitted to the reign of God. 00:14:12.260 --> 00:14:30.140 Now, this could be 20 people, you know, a little coffee shop in a gym and living in a two square block radius that are building an ecosystem that functions separately from the ecosystem of the greatest greater city that they're in. 00:14:30.260 --> 00:14:38.720 And so that distinction is really important is we we as Jesus people have not been called to change our cities. 00:14:38.860 --> 00:14:43.460 I believe I believe we've been called to build better cities within our cities. 00:14:43.460 --> 00:14:45.000 And those could be very small. 00:14:45.520 --> 00:14:46.740 They could be networked. 00:14:46.740 --> 00:14:48.620 Like you said, they could be interconnected. 00:14:49.160 --> 00:15:09.040 But the church in our cities, in Miami, in St. Louis, in Birmingham, wherever we are, the church was really meant to function as an interconnected family, supporting, loving, finding all things in common, not as a group of people that were competing with each other's organizations, you see. 00:15:09.760 --> 00:15:11.920 And so that's the city that we're talking about. 00:15:12.000 --> 00:15:18.140 We are not talking about a city like Chicago being ruled by God. 00:15:18.260 --> 00:15:23.620 Not only do I not think that that's possible, I actually don't think that's what we've been called to do. 00:15:24.200 --> 00:15:30.040 I think we've been called to build shadows of the holy city, New Jerusalem, within those cities. 00:15:30.580 --> 00:15:32.120 Those will be ruled by God. 00:15:32.360 --> 00:15:34.560 This sounds a little organic, right? 00:15:34.560 --> 00:15:38.880 So, I mean, you're talking coffeehouses, you're talking gyms, 20 people. 00:15:40.460 --> 00:15:48.700 When you talk about these new cities, are you leaning towards more of an organic, decentralized approach? 00:15:48.940 --> 00:15:56.540 Like what do you see these small cities, these new cities, these new Jerusalems, what does this look like? 00:15:56.820 --> 00:16:04.220 Yeah, they're organic, but don't ever confuse organic or dichotomize organic with organization. 00:16:07.000 --> 00:16:11.680 The body, the human body is extremely organic. 00:16:12.360 --> 00:16:13.540 It moves naturally. 00:16:13.860 --> 00:16:15.280 It reacts. 00:16:15.280 --> 00:16:23.740 It, you know, thinks in an organic and moves in an organic type of fashion. 00:16:23.840 --> 00:16:32.560 But we know that it's also perhaps the most organized organism on the face of the earth. 00:16:32.700 --> 00:16:39.240 And so anything that's truly organic has to have an extreme amount of organization within it. 00:16:39.540 --> 00:16:47.520 I think that's where the city builders come in, is they carry the weight of that ownership of how is the city going to function? 00:16:47.860 --> 00:16:49.120 And look, here's the thing. 00:16:49.760 --> 00:16:52.040 I don't want to, I'm not an idealist. 00:16:52.640 --> 00:16:55.720 I sound like it sometimes, but I'm really not. 00:16:56.080 --> 00:17:05.260 No city we build this side of the final city is ever going to be fully ruled by God, is ever going to be perfect. 00:17:05.260 --> 00:17:07.140 Because we're humans, we're imperfect. 00:17:07.520 --> 00:17:15.740 We're, we're, we, we mess up everything that we put our hands to at some point in time. 00:17:17.900 --> 00:17:34.980 But this, this movement that we're talking about, uh, has the potential to create an ethic again, that submits itself to the ethic of Jesus, to the teaching of Jesus, to the lifestyle of Jesus. 00:17:34.980 --> 00:17:38.620 And so anyway, yeah, backtracking, it is very organic. 00:17:38.820 --> 00:17:43.340 It's awakening dreams in the people within what we call the church, right? 00:17:43.400 --> 00:17:44.700 Like the body of Christ. 00:17:45.080 --> 00:17:56.900 And those dreams are to build and create and innovate spaces that connect the love and the hope of God to a seeking world. 00:17:59.100 --> 00:18:01.800 So you mentioned gyms and you mentioned coffee shops. 00:18:01.880 --> 00:18:04.620 Those are third, those are what we call third spaces, right? 00:18:05.560 --> 00:18:11.200 Uh, we're, we're all about building third spaces, but also second spaces, uh, where we work. 00:18:11.520 --> 00:18:22.900 You know, the average person in the industrialized world and the Western world is spending what 75, 80% of their life in the market space. 00:18:23.620 --> 00:18:31.320 Um, so we've gone from bivocational to co-vocational to we're just all in it's everything. 00:18:31.520 --> 00:18:33.840 It's not work and ministry. 00:18:33.840 --> 00:18:38.700 It's not work, uh, you know, infused with ministry. 00:18:38.940 --> 00:18:42.260 It's work is ministry. 00:18:42.660 --> 00:18:45.740 It's business is church. 00:18:45.980 --> 00:18:48.320 It's not business as mission. 00:18:48.860 --> 00:18:55.680 It's not necessarily business is mission that is in there, but it's the business. 00:18:55.900 --> 00:18:58.340 You're, you don't leave your coffee shop. 00:18:58.600 --> 00:19:01.200 You don't have to, you certainly can, but that's your table. 00:19:01.200 --> 00:19:08.160 You don't leave that to then go to some sacred space to connect with Jesus or connect others to Jesus. 00:19:08.920 --> 00:19:19.000 This is the sacred space where you are building a rhythm within it to where people are connecting to the story of God in everyday life. 00:19:19.380 --> 00:19:23.120 Disciples are being made in this space in everyday life. 00:19:23.700 --> 00:19:26.060 It looked, man, it looks a lot like parenting, right? 00:19:27.000 --> 00:19:30.500 For anyone who's raised kids, we're not taking our, I mean, 00:19:30.880 --> 00:19:39.700 a lot of people do, but we wouldn't teach people to take their kids somewhere to try to connect them to God or to the hope of God or to the love of God. 00:19:40.380 --> 00:19:41.940 We're connecting them in everyday life. 00:19:41.940 --> 00:19:42.560 We're connecting them in everyday life. 00:19:42.560 --> 00:19:56.400 I was cutting grass with my boys yesterday and my daughter, and we were just talking about, you know, the, the provision of, they want to buy an Oculus, you know, this whole world. 00:19:56.460 --> 00:20:00.780 They want to buy an Oculus quest and they want to like do the whole VR thing. 00:20:00.780 --> 00:20:02.500 And I was like, yeah, y'all can do it. 00:20:02.540 --> 00:20:05.220 The only thing is, is you have to earn the money to do it. 00:20:05.920 --> 00:20:10.360 And so they started a lawn company and they are cutting grass this summer. 00:20:10.480 --> 00:20:13.240 And we were sitting down after cutting a big yard yesterday. 00:20:13.400 --> 00:20:13.960 I helped them. 00:20:14.440 --> 00:20:18.180 And we're just talking about the, man, isn't God so good to provide this? 00:20:18.660 --> 00:20:23.840 Look at how work, you know, you're able to work and you're able to get a wage from it. 00:20:23.900 --> 00:20:37.880 And this is just making disciples in everyday life and transfusing that or transferring that into what the church, how the church can function is a very organic and organized work. 00:20:38.440 --> 00:20:53.880 Now, these are not like, um, these businesses are these church run businesses where there's a organization of the church that's running it as a ministry or what you're describing is more of like individuals that are running a small business. 00:20:53.880 --> 00:21:02.560 That are running it for, for kingdom purposes, like how the idea of this business is organic, but how really organic are you seeing through, uh, brave cities? 00:21:02.860 --> 00:21:03.020 Yes. 00:21:03.120 --> 00:21:08.680 So part of our model is incubating good works within a city. 00:21:09.460 --> 00:21:23.860 Um, we created a, or we kind of helped, uh, 10, 12 years ago, we started designing like a 501c3 holding company model, uh, that was separate from kind of the traditional. 00:21:23.860 --> 00:21:43.100 Uh, uh, religious organization to where we would incubate businesses within this org, very similar to like a Palo Alto style incubator, but we're incubating with very particular, uh, goals in mind with very particular strategies in mind. 00:21:43.100 --> 00:21:58.680 And, uh, uh, let's just, uh, the Christian thing is easy to understand, but let's say it's someone who's not necessarily, uh, following Jesus yet, or wanting to submit to the way of Jesus yet. 00:21:59.340 --> 00:22:16.080 So part of the incubating process is teaching and, and, and, and conveying and investing the, the good news of the kingdom into those people. 00:22:16.080 --> 00:22:26.400 Because what we've found Jeff is no one by and large in their right mind is averse to the good news of the kingdom. 00:22:27.200 --> 00:22:32.580 No one is averse to the great story of a God who loves his people. 00:22:33.280 --> 00:22:39.640 What we've become so entangled with is this dogmatic religious shaming. 00:22:40.540 --> 00:22:41.680 And you know what I'm saying? 00:22:41.820 --> 00:22:43.460 I don't have to get too deep into it. 00:22:43.520 --> 00:22:53.320 So we want to bring people in that are not connected to the life and the love of Jesus and say, Hey, what's your, what's your dream for our city? 00:22:53.720 --> 00:22:55.320 How can we incubate this work? 00:22:55.320 --> 00:23:23.320 And so then practically, yes, our, our organization, which is non-religious, uh, our 501c3 holding company will help incubate and even hold that business, uh, training, coaching, entrepreneurial startup development, uh, bookkeeping, payroll, uh, branding, marketing, um, importing, exporting, uh, architecture, whatever, whatever it may be to incubate. 00:23:23.720 --> 00:23:46.400 But in order to kind of remain within the ecosystem, there are, uh, tenants that we hold to that are, you know, enjoyable, that are things like, uh, loving our employees and caring about people over profit and, you know, things like that. 00:23:46.400 --> 00:23:56.580 So yes, uh, it's not just saying, Hey, guy down the street that runs an accounting firm, be a light in your accounting firm. 00:23:56.700 --> 00:23:59.060 It's a little more complex than that. 00:23:59.780 --> 00:24:14.480 It's, it's potentially launching or transitioning an accounting firm with a very specific, what we would think of traditionally as like a ministerial concept. 00:24:14.480 --> 00:24:26.480 How are we going to, uh, create a space that is inclusive, that like loves and welcomes and offers hope to any who come in it? 00:24:26.660 --> 00:24:29.160 How are we going to create access to the poor? 00:24:29.420 --> 00:24:38.320 How are we going to, uh, create what we would call convergence spaces where people are connecting and knowing each other? 00:24:38.320 --> 00:24:47.280 And the, the idea of, I'll end with this, the idea of, you know, dog eat dog, we got to get that money. 00:24:47.420 --> 00:24:50.200 We got to make like loads and loads of profits. 00:24:50.280 --> 00:24:56.200 That's, that's just not a priority in these market spaces. 00:24:56.200 --> 00:24:57.500 You know, it's interesting. 00:24:57.500 --> 00:25:05.920 We, we talk a lot through the church digital, how there's, um, there's a lot of philosophical shifts that are happening as a result of, of the metaverse. 00:25:06.060 --> 00:25:17.040 And, uh, and, and one of those, the overall theme is that it's the, as a result of some of the metaverse technologies, blockchain, crypto specifically, there's going to be this move towards decentralization. 00:25:17.040 --> 00:25:39.500 And, and one of these philosophical shifts we see is that organizations and institutions need to move from a, uh, a profit mindset to a purpose, move away from trying to do everything we can to make the buck and instead to give purpose or to find purpose or to help people find their purpose. 00:25:39.500 --> 00:25:48.440 And it, and it almost sounds like what you're doing right here with, um, uh, with Brave City is that you're, you're, you've already moved away from that. 00:25:48.460 --> 00:25:48.780 It's funny. 00:25:48.840 --> 00:25:50.440 You're kind of tongue in cheek. 00:25:50.620 --> 00:25:52.180 Uh, you've launched all these businesses. 00:25:52.180 --> 00:25:54.580 You've never really been able to make a buck off it. 00:25:54.580 --> 00:25:58.740 And, and, and honestly, like that's my history too, with some of the businesses that I, that I've run. 00:25:58.740 --> 00:26:07.420 Um, but the heart really comes into this place of what I'm hearing is moving to help people find their, their spiritual purpose. 00:26:07.420 --> 00:26:12.540 And then releasing them to build a city or releasing them with, within the city. 00:26:12.640 --> 00:26:14.420 Where are you guys through Brave City? 00:26:14.480 --> 00:26:18.560 Are you like seeing this in, is this a theory or is this reality? 00:26:18.560 --> 00:26:21.380 Like what, what are some stories that could be centered around this? 00:26:21.380 --> 00:26:22.360 No, it's real. 00:26:22.960 --> 00:26:34.700 Um, if we were to, in the book, we talk about, um, five or six kingdom ecosystems that exist, uh, primarily around our country. 00:26:34.700 --> 00:26:38.500 There are others that we could reference, but they're a little harder to visit. 00:26:39.160 --> 00:26:47.580 Um, but Birmingham, Alabama, Alton, Illinois, Chicago, Illinois, uh, San Antonio, Texas, Tampa, Florida. 00:26:48.360 --> 00:27:00.300 These are places where people are, are kind of embracing and building this, uh, this decentralized model of kingdom ecosystem, um, where the church is functioning within it. 00:27:00.300 --> 00:27:06.320 And, and, and, you know, it's hard, it's a little difficult talking about this without a kind of a clear framework. 00:27:06.320 --> 00:27:20.280 And, uh, I guess if I could just cover it, you know, really briefly, I sent you, uh, an image, um, that takes this, this theory of how communities gathered. 00:27:20.280 --> 00:27:23.460 That was developed in the 80s called social set theory. 00:27:23.780 --> 00:27:34.160 And it kind of breaks society into three groups called, uh, called the, um, the, uh, bounded set, the centered set in the fuzzy set. 00:27:34.400 --> 00:27:38.640 And we renamed those three groups, owners, workers, and seekers. 00:27:39.860 --> 00:27:53.380 And so if our listeners could just imagine three concentric circles, I talk about this a lot because I want there to be an image in our, in our minds of this is how the church could look. 00:27:53.940 --> 00:28:03.320 And the owners at, at, at, at, at the beginning, uh, at the, you know, the first concentric circle, uh, the owners are the, the pioneers. 00:28:03.320 --> 00:28:12.020 They're what we would call in the church planting world, the apostolic, uh, team that's kind of, uh, founding something. 00:28:12.020 --> 00:28:15.500 And they're, they're the culture builders of the city. 00:28:15.780 --> 00:28:17.520 Uh, we can talk about that more. 00:28:17.600 --> 00:28:21.780 The workers, um, are the, the, the missionaries. 00:28:21.780 --> 00:28:29.780 They're the, they're the ones, by the way, we use the word a lot for the owners, the covenant people, the ones who kind of hold to this covenant. 00:28:30.400 --> 00:28:35.780 The workers, yes, they hold to a covenant, but they're kind of like, we can come and go. 00:28:36.040 --> 00:28:45.380 We're, we're, we're all in with the idea of building the kingdom in our city, but we're not necessarily covenant into this work or to this place, but we're in, we're building. 00:28:46.120 --> 00:28:49.440 And the owners and the workers build what we call tables. 00:28:50.560 --> 00:28:54.960 What we call not a new word, but in this framework, we call them tables. 00:28:55.600 --> 00:29:06.000 The tables are, uh, our creative way of trying to break down the sacred secular divide. 00:29:06.000 --> 00:29:15.220 If you remember, Newbigin was known, Leslie Newbigin, a famous kind of missionary philosopher, missional thinker. 00:29:15.480 --> 00:29:19.280 He was known for trying to break down the clergy laity divide. 00:29:20.160 --> 00:29:24.960 And he was accused of wanting to tear down the clergy. 00:29:25.760 --> 00:29:28.320 And he said, no, you're wrong. 00:29:28.440 --> 00:29:29.480 You've got that backwards. 00:29:29.740 --> 00:29:34.140 I want to tear down the laity because he believed in the priesthood, right? 00:29:35.280 --> 00:29:39.240 Well, take that same idea and apply it to sacred secular. 00:29:39.620 --> 00:29:40.980 We look at a building. 00:29:40.980 --> 00:29:43.520 I'm looking at one right out of our window right now. 00:29:43.600 --> 00:29:52.700 We look at a building with a steeple and a cross on top and maybe a name like first something or another. 00:29:52.980 --> 00:29:56.900 And we, in our minds, we think of that as sacred, right? 00:29:56.980 --> 00:29:58.900 We say, don't curse in church. 00:29:59.400 --> 00:30:04.460 Don't wear your hat in church, whatever it may be, because it's a sacred space to us. 00:30:05.120 --> 00:30:07.320 I'm okay with that on some level. 00:30:07.800 --> 00:30:15.080 The problem is, is then we go to the bar or the coffee shop or the gym or the digital space. 00:30:15.620 --> 00:30:18.400 And we think of that, well, that's a secular space. 00:30:18.400 --> 00:30:19.840 We can act differently there. 00:30:19.840 --> 00:30:28.160 What we want to do is we want to help the missional, pioneering, innovative world understand that every space is sacred. 00:30:29.020 --> 00:30:35.160 Every space, church, ecclesia, can be manifested and built within that space. 00:30:35.820 --> 00:30:48.440 So our tables, this is kind of what brings it all home here, Jeff, is our tables are gyms, coffee shops. 00:30:49.440 --> 00:30:52.700 City parks, neighborhood cookouts. 00:30:53.340 --> 00:30:56.820 Our tables could be a barbershop or a pizza restaurant. 00:30:57.400 --> 00:31:10.700 But also, another table is a worship experience, because a lot of people do still connect to God in that Sunday or Thursday night, 00:31:10.700 --> 00:31:22.960 whatever we think of, of coming together, singing some songs, hearing a profound word about the love of God or the heart of God and connecting to Him in that space. 00:31:23.220 --> 00:31:29.460 But all of us who have our finger on the pulse of the missional world or of the world as we know it, 00:31:29.460 --> 00:31:37.900 we know that that demographic is shrinking by the day that connect to God in that space. 00:31:38.840 --> 00:31:49.180 And so we want to inspire and empower and release and give permission for missionaries to build tables that are sacred all throughout the city. 00:31:49.360 --> 00:31:52.560 All right. So here's the here I'm landing the plane. 00:31:52.560 --> 00:31:54.160 We got owners. We got workers. 00:31:54.640 --> 00:31:57.740 And then our third set, the fuzzy set, we call them seekers. 00:31:58.380 --> 00:32:05.280 Seekers are anyone that we want to connect to the love and the hope of God through those tables at our gyms, 00:32:05.340 --> 00:32:10.960 at our barbershops, at our coffee shops, at our bars, at our worship experiences. 00:32:11.100 --> 00:32:19.980 So then we're connecting that network of tables as a movement, which ends up becoming a city within a city. 00:32:20.680 --> 00:32:23.740 So why have multiple tables? 00:32:24.380 --> 00:32:26.480 What's the end game? 00:32:27.360 --> 00:32:35.620 I mean, you're describing, you know, coffee houses, restaurants, gyms, you're describing existing churches. 00:32:37.020 --> 00:32:43.120 Is it, is what's the logic in kind of diversifying and spreading out across the city? 00:32:43.320 --> 00:32:44.360 It's easy. Two reasons. 00:32:44.560 --> 00:32:47.640 One, because you have diverse people within the work. 00:32:48.480 --> 00:32:50.700 Not everybody wants to run a coffee shop. 00:32:51.180 --> 00:32:54.940 Not everyone has that vision or wants to be connected at it or be a part of it. 00:32:54.940 --> 00:32:59.380 So you have diverse, you have, we don't want homogeneity. 00:32:59.600 --> 00:33:04.300 That doesn't display the kingdom and that doesn't create space for others to connect. 00:33:04.920 --> 00:33:10.960 So you have diversity within the work and you have diversity outside of the work. 00:33:11.680 --> 00:33:20.080 If you were to, I'm sitting in an, our office exists within the original post office in Alton, Illinois. 00:33:20.080 --> 00:33:24.460 We turned it into a coffee shop, restaurant, event center, and co-working space. 00:33:24.780 --> 00:33:34.300 So it's a 17,000 square foot space that has been converted into this beautiful kind of central living room of downtown Alton. 00:33:35.080 --> 00:33:43.800 However, if you were to walk in right now, you would see a fairly homogenous group of people. 00:33:44.200 --> 00:33:48.700 Not completely, but there's a lot of people being missed at this table. 00:33:49.280 --> 00:33:58.480 And if you were to go to the city park where me and my sons play basketball and where we go often to try to create kind of a sacred rhythm there, 00:33:58.480 --> 00:34:03.460 You would see a very different group of people there than we have here. 00:34:04.560 --> 00:34:20.040 Similarly, in Birmingham, if you were to go to our barbershop or our gym or our landscaping company or our, let's say, our property management company. 00:34:20.040 --> 00:34:33.460 In all of those spaces, you would find very different groups of people that are directors or leaders or pastors over those spaces are connecting the love of God in that. 00:34:33.460 --> 00:34:42.460 You've got to think this isn't a Babylonian understanding of entrepreneurialism. 00:34:42.560 --> 00:34:53.120 You're starting the business with the priority of infusing the hope of the kingdom into the culture where the business is functioning. 00:34:55.620 --> 00:35:11.680 I assume that you don't wake up every day fantasizing about starting a home building company where you can be a contractor and go get your home builder's license and start doing plumbing and electrical and project management and things like that. 00:35:11.680 --> 00:35:24.000 But there are guys that have that dream and love it and want to do it and are good at it, skilled at it, but they want to be missionaries in their everyday life. 00:35:24.960 --> 00:35:37.700 The problem is, is they're functioning within a cultural framework that binds them to kind of living that dream adequately. 00:35:38.720 --> 00:35:50.600 You have a vision of digital, of metaverse, of connecting the hope and the love and the work of the kingdom into that space. 00:35:50.840 --> 00:35:53.300 And so that's a diverse table that we would want. 00:35:53.420 --> 00:35:59.540 And then finally, that table can become a city for other tables. 00:36:00.000 --> 00:36:13.740 So that's where movement starts to happen, is when a table becomes basically a launching, pioneering point for more kingdom ecosystems to flow out of it. 00:36:13.820 --> 00:36:19.140 So you might start a table within the metaverse that ultimately becomes a city within that space. 00:36:20.560 --> 00:36:23.100 And that's just church planning 101. 00:36:24.080 --> 00:36:25.400 Movement creates movement. 00:36:25.720 --> 00:36:26.440 I love it. 00:36:26.700 --> 00:36:29.040 Let's unpack your construction. 00:36:29.260 --> 00:36:33.520 By the way, that sounds like a nightmare to me, running a construction. 00:36:33.660 --> 00:36:36.380 Like there's 0% chance that's going to happen on my side. 00:36:36.380 --> 00:36:40.160 But let's unpack maybe the ecclesiology of this. 00:36:41.180 --> 00:36:53.340 Is the endgame for, you know, let's say the guy that is running that construction business, you know, develops a following or a church or a gathering. 00:36:54.340 --> 00:36:57.300 Like, is that meant to be self-contained? 00:36:57.480 --> 00:37:02.500 Is that meant to be a front door to a worship experience? 00:37:02.500 --> 00:37:08.180 But you're talking about the worship experience being a table at the same level as the construction guy. 00:37:08.180 --> 00:37:14.100 So, like, what is this, what is, like, two years of this thing, what's it going to look like? 00:37:14.320 --> 00:37:21.000 Yeah, we actually discourage the idea of funneling people into some sacred space. 00:37:22.640 --> 00:37:28.320 So, the tables within the ecosystem, the tables within the community, they're all accessible. 00:37:28.580 --> 00:37:29.300 They're all available. 00:37:29.660 --> 00:37:34.900 I might, you know, I would say for me personally, let me just kind of testify. 00:37:36.160 --> 00:37:36.940 I worship. 00:37:37.460 --> 00:37:42.420 I'm actually, in my past life of ministry, I was a worship leader. 00:37:42.920 --> 00:37:45.520 I was a musician, singer, songwriter, worship leader. 00:37:46.100 --> 00:37:47.900 And I enjoy that space. 00:37:47.940 --> 00:37:52.780 But I worship most when I'm working with my hands. 00:37:53.440 --> 00:38:03.600 So, one of our tables here in Alton is a custom woodworking company, high-end, pro custom woodworking company called SoulCraft Makers. 00:38:05.040 --> 00:38:06.560 SoulCraftMakers.com is the website. 00:38:08.080 --> 00:38:20.780 One of my favorite things to do when I have a little space in my life is to go out there and just to work, just to serve in that space, build something, work on something, you know, music in the background. 00:38:21.120 --> 00:38:21.940 People are there. 00:38:22.140 --> 00:38:24.080 We're connecting and we're working with our hands. 00:38:24.200 --> 00:38:27.140 Another thing I love to do is actually what you said you hate. 00:38:27.460 --> 00:38:35.540 I love to go into a home and just work, hammer, work with my hands, something like that. 00:38:36.720 --> 00:38:39.620 So, these tables are all accessible to me. 00:38:39.740 --> 00:38:41.980 I've been in coffee now for 10 years. 00:38:42.240 --> 00:38:46.460 I've started a coffee shop and I ran one for a while. 00:38:47.420 --> 00:38:55.240 I'm in a coffee shop right now in Alton that I helped start and I love to work here and worship in this space. 00:38:55.320 --> 00:38:59.040 And I don't think to myself, I need some money for working here. 00:38:59.100 --> 00:39:00.120 I just want to go and connect. 00:39:00.760 --> 00:39:13.360 We also have a once a month Thursday night gathering at a space that we call Anchor Co., where we sing songs, Christian worship songs. 00:39:13.920 --> 00:39:17.220 We take kind of a traditional sacrament of communion. 00:39:17.680 --> 00:39:18.900 I enjoy that space. 00:39:19.200 --> 00:39:24.280 I like connecting with God and with others in that space. 00:39:24.500 --> 00:39:33.100 I hope this makes, like this is to me, it's just groundbreaking in our idea of what church is. 00:39:33.340 --> 00:39:34.740 Church is not. 00:39:35.520 --> 00:39:44.080 It's so reductionistic to think of church as this space that we go to that's very regimented. 00:39:44.160 --> 00:39:46.440 It's been the same for 500 years. 00:39:46.600 --> 00:39:52.980 You walk in, you sit in rows, you know, we'll change it up a little bit, but it's four songs and a message. 00:39:53.260 --> 00:39:58.900 And that's, again, I'm here to tell everybody, I believe wholeheartedly that is fine. 00:40:00.060 --> 00:40:04.620 But that's just one table of how people connect to and worship God. 00:40:04.620 --> 00:40:09.620 And we have no business funneling, thinking that that's the graduation. 00:40:10.460 --> 00:40:13.560 We graduate from elementary school into that space. 00:40:14.260 --> 00:40:21.860 And now, no, we, our pastors, our leaders, our workers have to know how to make disciples in every space. 00:40:22.400 --> 00:40:33.660 How to develop mature future workers in every space, not just in that traditional worship experience space. 00:40:33.760 --> 00:40:42.960 So that's our ecclesiology, is that the church has, not only has the ability, but was meant to function and exist in every space. 00:40:43.220 --> 00:40:49.420 That's a very radical shift, probably from what a lot of today's churches are doing. 00:40:49.420 --> 00:40:58.660 Like just trying to compare the average church with that, you know, some of the radical stuff I talk about in digital, that's up there with what you're looking at. 00:40:59.220 --> 00:41:07.600 How do you, and the tension that I feel when I talk to churches about doing what you just said digitally, but you're doing this physically. 00:41:08.600 --> 00:41:13.320 How do you see them releasing control? 00:41:13.320 --> 00:41:19.840 Because it would seem to me like that's the, that's the biggest tension with an existing church doing this. 00:41:19.840 --> 00:41:35.260 Because like you're, what you're saying is that the table is an opportunity and the workplace ministry and the prison ministry and the coffee house and everything else is equal to what's happening at that worship experience level. 00:41:36.800 --> 00:41:40.320 What, what is that, well, let me ask, let me just apply it to you. 00:41:40.740 --> 00:41:43.640 How do you, how do you release that? 00:41:44.140 --> 00:41:48.060 There's a level of control you've got to release, but at the same point, there's accountability. 00:41:49.180 --> 00:41:53.860 There's, you know, growth and development because you want to see them continue to. 00:41:54.320 --> 00:41:56.560 So what level of control do you have? 00:41:56.600 --> 00:41:58.140 What level of control are you releasing? 00:41:58.660 --> 00:41:59.840 How are you managing that? 00:42:00.040 --> 00:42:05.340 Yeah, I mean, you're asking, we might need to have a session two for some of these questions. 00:42:06.240 --> 00:42:10.680 Because the, I mean, these are great questions and they're, they're layered. 00:42:10.900 --> 00:42:14.820 I'll try to give little, you know, sprinkles of ideas. 00:42:15.360 --> 00:42:23.560 One, we were never meant to be under some form of Levitical control. 00:42:25.000 --> 00:42:28.280 There's a difference between accountability and control. 00:42:28.400 --> 00:42:31.720 And so you asked, how do they release control? 00:42:31.840 --> 00:42:35.820 And I would say, well, they either release it or it will be taken from them. 00:42:36.540 --> 00:42:38.840 It's, it's one or the other at some point. 00:42:38.880 --> 00:42:48.160 And what we're trying to do is we're trying to experiment and innovate ideas of these, of these brave cities. 00:42:48.160 --> 00:43:01.720 So that as the, as the current structures that exist right now begin to decrease and decrease and really crumble as we're seeing it pre-COVID, much more so. 00:43:01.900 --> 00:43:03.680 COVID definitely exacerbated it. 00:43:03.740 --> 00:43:08.760 But pre-COVID, we were seeing it decline at a historical rate. 00:43:09.360 --> 00:43:15.040 That those Jesus seekers or those kingdom seekers that exist will have cities to go into. 00:43:15.320 --> 00:43:25.320 I want to use one little analogy that I think for the first time ever will hit home with the host that I'm talking to more than it ever has. 00:43:26.580 --> 00:43:29.980 Brave cities is really, can be like blockchain. 00:43:31.580 --> 00:43:45.620 The cities that we're building are like Bitcoin or Cardano or Polkadot or, so take cryptocurrency, just that idea. 00:43:45.760 --> 00:43:52.960 I know blockchain covers a myriad of, but that's one that's familiar with some of the people that are tapped in. 00:43:53.600 --> 00:43:58.900 And you said this is a radical shift, and I would say it's no more radical than the crypto idea. 00:43:59.480 --> 00:44:08.000 The reason that blockchain has just mesmerized me as a thinker is because I'm saying they're doing what we're trying to do. 00:44:08.540 --> 00:44:16.920 They're taking control from the all-powerful financial networks, and they're trying to disperse it to the people. 00:44:17.420 --> 00:44:20.240 And, of course, there's going to be massive backlash. 00:44:20.400 --> 00:44:21.440 Am I saying this right? 00:44:21.540 --> 00:44:25.240 I mean, you're tied into this world more than I am, but this is accurate, right? 00:44:25.240 --> 00:44:48.880 So what blockchain has done is blockchain has created the technology to basically inspire, empower, and release these groups to do the Cardanos and the Ethereums and the Bitcoins and whatever else. 00:44:49.080 --> 00:45:02.000 So if Lantern here in Alton is Cardano and well-built city in Tampa, Florida is Ethereum, Brave Cities is the blockchain. 00:45:03.120 --> 00:45:15.380 We're trying to create a technology and an idea and an understanding and a releasing and an empowerment to say, go, you have authority. 00:45:16.240 --> 00:45:20.280 Build the city, release control, empower the priesthood. 00:45:20.760 --> 00:45:22.960 You don't have to reign over people. 00:45:23.100 --> 00:45:25.360 We were tricked into thinking that. 00:45:25.600 --> 00:45:29.580 The Holy Spirit is our guide. 00:45:29.960 --> 00:45:33.280 And, look, let's just be honest, bro, for a second. 00:45:34.420 --> 00:45:45.920 Who in their right mind still thinks that unless we're under some type of religious system that we're not going to be held accountable? 00:45:46.460 --> 00:45:48.880 That system certainly has not held us accountable. 00:45:49.600 --> 00:45:56.320 I don't have to go into detail of all of the scandals that are happening what seems to be weakly. 00:45:56.980 --> 00:46:00.140 So my point is not to disparage that system. 00:46:00.600 --> 00:46:14.800 My point is to say, no matter what economy or framework we exist in, we are accountable to our God, to his spirit, and to the people that we walk with. 00:46:15.200 --> 00:46:19.080 And we have to submit to that and say, look, you've got to watch my life. 00:46:19.160 --> 00:46:20.740 You've got to, you know, all that stuff. 00:46:20.920 --> 00:46:24.160 So that's not a hard understanding for me. 00:46:24.300 --> 00:46:26.080 I think it is for a lot of people. 00:46:26.160 --> 00:46:32.480 A lot of people think, oh, well, if you do this, people are just going to run free and do whatever they want. 00:46:32.560 --> 00:46:33.300 And I'm like, good. 00:46:33.920 --> 00:46:34.620 They need to. 00:46:35.340 --> 00:46:43.480 We need to release people and we need to let them struggle and grow and trip and fall and get back up. 00:46:43.480 --> 00:46:51.380 And so they start these beautiful, innovative tables and they pastor them. 00:46:51.540 --> 00:47:06.380 And then, yes, I want to say ecclesiologically, if you look at the pastoral epistles, every city had elders or eventually had covenant people, had overseers. 00:47:06.800 --> 00:47:10.960 I consider those people to be the ones who hold the culture. 00:47:12.480 --> 00:47:20.400 They know, Jeff and his team know the culture that they're trying to build within this certain context of the metaverse. 00:47:20.800 --> 00:47:23.440 And they're fighting every day to hold the culture. 00:47:23.640 --> 00:47:27.120 What do me and my wife do on a daily basis in our family? 00:47:27.720 --> 00:47:28.780 We hold the culture. 00:47:29.940 --> 00:47:43.220 When our kids act a certain way or think or start doing something that's kind of averse to our culture, we bring them back in and we say, look, this is the culture of our and that's all the family is. 00:47:43.700 --> 00:47:49.600 A family is really just an ecosystem functioning, interconnecting, working together every day. 00:47:49.760 --> 00:47:52.820 We're just talking about an expanded version of that. 00:47:53.520 --> 00:47:56.500 My kids work and make money and help out with things. 00:47:56.880 --> 00:47:57.860 They buy things. 00:47:58.800 --> 00:48:05.200 There's financial, economical transfer that's happening in our family all the time. 00:48:05.280 --> 00:48:07.900 It's just a really small version of that. 00:48:08.320 --> 00:48:12.180 And as a father, yes, I want control. 00:48:12.640 --> 00:48:15.780 Don't be mistaken that we're just kind of flippant and mushy. 00:48:16.240 --> 00:48:19.160 No, I want control to hold my culture. 00:48:19.160 --> 00:48:30.700 But the greatest effort or job or goal of a parent is to be able to release their children, right? 00:48:31.320 --> 00:48:33.980 To let them go and say, you're good now. 00:48:34.200 --> 00:48:35.180 You don't need to be. 00:48:35.560 --> 00:48:39.980 So it's just a kind of a microcosm of that idea. 00:48:40.460 --> 00:48:43.640 What does multiplication look like? 00:48:43.640 --> 00:48:56.940 So, I mean, your example of the children releasing them, like the construction guy, is he trying to create, I don't mean this to be sarcastic, like is he trying to create another construction business? 00:48:57.080 --> 00:49:01.040 Is he trying to multiply and to do something in a neighboring town? 00:49:01.260 --> 00:49:08.880 Is he just trying to pass on his culture and his legacy so that that ministry leads on? 00:49:09.400 --> 00:49:11.680 Like, what is multiplication? 00:49:11.680 --> 00:49:17.360 Is it spinning up a completely separate business and starting a completely different table to reach a different person? 00:49:17.840 --> 00:49:22.540 Like, what's the goal of multiplication in this kingdom ecosystem mindset? 00:49:22.920 --> 00:49:24.460 That's a really simple answer. 00:49:24.620 --> 00:49:27.280 So I want to say first, it's way easier. 00:49:27.500 --> 00:49:29.360 It's much easier said than done. 00:49:30.520 --> 00:49:38.080 I mean, the reality of any market space, social space, neighboring spaces, you got life. 00:49:38.220 --> 00:49:42.320 Life is just happening and it's hard and you got to pay your bills. 00:49:42.660 --> 00:49:44.420 But that's the case anywhere, man. 00:49:44.540 --> 00:49:46.920 That was the case when I was in full-time ministry. 00:49:47.660 --> 00:49:48.720 Life is just tough. 00:49:48.860 --> 00:49:54.140 You're worried about numbers and are people going to give and is this vision good? 00:49:54.280 --> 00:49:56.020 And so it's all the same. 00:49:56.800 --> 00:50:00.900 But what multiplication looks like is very similar to parenting. 00:50:00.900 --> 00:50:14.000 You're raising up men and women to be disciples of Jesus that want to reach other people and bring other people into those tables. 00:50:14.400 --> 00:50:23.440 And then the kind of the ultimate win is to see more tables started out of that, that it just grows and grows and grows and multiplies. 00:50:23.580 --> 00:50:23.740 Yeah. 00:50:23.800 --> 00:50:25.020 If you want to go to another city. 00:50:25.380 --> 00:50:32.780 I mean, there's a lot of theological language that exists within this that we don't have to get into. 00:50:32.980 --> 00:50:36.760 But just knowing like your skill set, your temperament. 00:50:37.400 --> 00:50:43.040 Ephesians 4, Jesus says, I gave to the church, the apostles, prophets, evangelists, shepherds, and teachers. 00:50:43.820 --> 00:50:49.540 Typically, teachers aren't necessarily pioneers, like high teachers aren't necessarily pioneers. 00:50:49.800 --> 00:50:53.220 Typically, apostle prophets are more of the pioneer type. 00:50:53.340 --> 00:51:01.400 So you want to have like a culture within your movement to where you're recognizing those dispositions, those temperaments. 00:51:01.400 --> 00:51:07.220 And you're seeing like this person could be a city builder, not just a table builder. 00:51:08.020 --> 00:51:16.960 I mean, that's a, that's a really deep understanding of how to multiply and expand this, but it multiplies naturally, Jeff. 00:51:17.060 --> 00:51:19.140 It's, it's happening already. 00:51:19.380 --> 00:51:23.400 I mean, people hear this, they understand it, they connect with it. 00:51:24.020 --> 00:51:29.400 Um, you're, you're, I will say this, this is a really, uh, fun way to think about it too. 00:51:29.400 --> 00:51:42.680 Your, uh, gosh, I'm, I'm missing the word, your, uh, your wins, your, um, metrics, your metrics change significantly. 00:51:42.920 --> 00:51:49.620 It's no longer about how many people are sitting in your service or how much money is being given. 00:51:49.620 --> 00:51:56.340 It's about how many people you're connecting hope and love, uh, and yeah, sure. 00:51:56.500 --> 00:52:01.100 Inviting into that work, but that that's really the work of the father. 00:52:01.500 --> 00:52:10.280 If you believe the Bible Corinthians three, Paul says, I planted Apollos water, but it was always an only God who gave the growth. 00:52:10.720 --> 00:52:14.940 So we're really trying to free our leaders from trying to grow their thing. 00:52:15.380 --> 00:52:23.180 Stop, just planting water with all your heart and let the one who grows grow. 00:52:23.340 --> 00:52:27.820 I pulled up to our office this morning or our coffee shop restaurant. 00:52:28.560 --> 00:52:34.980 And I saw one of our guys standing outside at a table, talking to a group of people out on our patio. 00:52:35.240 --> 00:52:36.540 And I took a picture. 00:52:36.740 --> 00:52:41.280 I just stopped in the road and took a picture for no reason, but I just wanted to document. 00:52:41.280 --> 00:52:53.660 Cause I knew, and I parked my truck, I got out and I walked up and sure enough, he was listening to, cause I know this person and I know his, his, what he brings every day into this space. 00:52:53.660 --> 00:52:58.040 And he was listening to their story and he was basically pastoring. 00:52:59.040 --> 00:53:14.360 He was encouraging, um, you know, hearing one of them had just, uh, been diagnosed or, uh, determined cancer free after a four year battle. 00:53:14.360 --> 00:53:20.680 And another one was doing, and he's just, just breathing life over this one little table. 00:53:21.680 --> 00:53:23.160 That's the work of a pastor. 00:53:23.400 --> 00:53:24.240 That's a shepherd. 00:53:25.100 --> 00:53:27.200 And he's, he's, they want to come back. 00:53:27.300 --> 00:53:38.280 And then you start hearing testimonies of people saying like that place, you know, at the corner of Albie and whatever third Avenue, that's like a church for me. 00:53:38.580 --> 00:53:40.040 That's like family for me. 00:53:40.600 --> 00:53:41.860 And then it expands. 00:53:42.000 --> 00:53:44.580 Somebody says, well, I want to start, how are y'all doing this? 00:53:44.640 --> 00:53:45.480 What's going on? 00:53:45.560 --> 00:53:45.800 You know? 00:53:45.860 --> 00:53:48.700 And we say, oh, well, we'd like to incubate good works in our city. 00:53:48.920 --> 00:53:52.420 And then next step is, well, why, why are you doing this? 00:53:52.500 --> 00:54:00.740 Oh, because we believe the good news of Jesus was more than just a spiritual platitude, uh, for, you know, for piety sake. 00:54:00.880 --> 00:54:03.240 We believe that Jesus redeems families. 00:54:03.560 --> 00:54:14.360 We believe he redeems city blocks and yeah, we believe he redeems souls too, of course, but it's, it's far greater good news than we thought. 00:54:15.160 --> 00:54:18.460 So multiplication is pretty natural and pretty easy. 00:54:18.560 --> 00:54:20.320 It was never meant to be like this. 00:54:20.420 --> 00:54:26.540 Let's meet on Wednesdays at 6 30 PM to discuss how we can multiply. 00:54:27.920 --> 00:54:32.780 To me, when you build an irresistible city, people come in and they say, I want to be a part of this city. 00:54:33.560 --> 00:54:35.300 Anywhere, everywhere, all the time. 00:54:35.660 --> 00:54:47.360 Oh, I tell you what, this has been a beautiful conversation, um, centered around your view of city and, and, and what that, that can look like in a decentralized approach for, for me on the digital side. 00:54:47.680 --> 00:54:54.960 Like I, I, I, I wrestle with a lot of maybe some of the ideology of, of, of you, what you're describing as these tables. 00:54:55.080 --> 00:54:57.980 Uh, and I, I look at social media platforms. 00:54:57.980 --> 00:54:58.840 I look at metaverse. 00:54:58.840 --> 00:55:08.220 I see opportunities to reach different types of people, um, within that, that city, uh, and, and even creating and multiplying different approaches. 00:55:08.220 --> 00:55:12.840 There's, I don't know, 2.7, uh, billion Facebook users. 00:55:13.000 --> 00:55:14.840 There's 2 billion YouTube users. 00:55:14.980 --> 00:55:17.380 There's 1 million Instagram users. 00:55:17.380 --> 00:55:19.820 And I can keep throwing out stats on that. 00:55:19.820 --> 00:55:24.100 Like there's, there's just, there's a lot of active users out there in digital space. 00:55:24.100 --> 00:55:41.580 And that can be overwhelming, but for us to, to narrow that down, uh, and to start to, to your approach of tables and start to apply that, uh, into digital and, and, and metaverse and start to create shared experiences to, to build relationships and to serve. 00:55:42.140 --> 00:55:43.860 Um, I mean, that's, that's beautiful. 00:55:43.860 --> 00:55:52.660 And when I hear you talking about the, the social space diagram and, and, or the social set, and by the way, we'll put that in the show notes for y'all to see. 00:55:52.660 --> 00:56:01.620 Um, and you know, for me, that's, that's resonated with me ever since the first time I heard you talk about, I was like, that's what we need the digital church to be. 00:56:01.680 --> 00:56:18.120 And there's opportunities to compliment working with the physical church, but there's opportunities to even do things digitally and start to create, um, these digital cities, uh, these digital expressions, these digital footprints that are going after people for the kingdom. 00:56:18.120 --> 00:56:20.400 And so, man, Taylor, thank you. 00:56:20.600 --> 00:56:21.380 Thank you for doing this. 00:56:21.440 --> 00:56:26.240 Thank you for, uh, being a part of this and, and, and really kind of championing this idea. 00:56:26.380 --> 00:56:29.360 This podcast has been a year in the coming almost. 00:56:29.460 --> 00:56:32.500 I feel like the first time I met you was about this time last year. 00:56:32.680 --> 00:56:45.640 And, uh, I, I love hearing what you're doing and, um, the, um, the way that you're going after the kingdom, uh, with such a, a unique approach that's gaining more and more insight. 00:56:45.780 --> 00:56:49.600 And so definitely, and plus you said the word it's blockchain and crypto. 00:56:49.740 --> 00:56:55.340 So therefore you're automatically my friend because there's not that many out there that, that know that I'm in the club. 00:56:55.520 --> 00:56:55.900 Yeah, you are. 00:56:55.980 --> 00:56:59.340 You referenced, uh, well-built, which is John, John Dingle. 00:56:59.540 --> 00:57:01.240 John's, uh, a good friend. 00:57:01.240 --> 00:57:08.320 And he, we actually did a pod, a round table conversation a couple of weeks ago, uh, talking blockchain and crypto. 00:57:08.980 --> 00:57:14.760 And, uh, he's, it's, it's, we'll put the link in the show notes to that he's a, he's a radical guy as, as well. 00:57:14.760 --> 00:57:21.340 And so kind of love, love his take on, uh, on a lot of this decentralized stuff, but Hey man, let's, we're going to rant land a plane. 00:57:21.340 --> 00:57:25.060 This has been an awesome conversation just as we're wrapping up here. 00:57:25.060 --> 00:57:26.400 Any, any closing thoughts? 00:57:26.780 --> 00:57:27.000 Yeah. 00:57:27.180 --> 00:57:38.960 I mean, so what, the reason I do this and what I'm thinking the whole time that we're talking is in hopes that, that one or two people will hear this language. 00:57:38.980 --> 00:57:42.400 And, and something will awaken inside of them. 00:57:42.500 --> 00:57:58.140 I think that, uh, all the data, all the numbers show us that the kind of church as we know it is wrapping up its time and maybe humanity's wrapping up its time. 00:57:58.260 --> 00:58:04.800 I don't know, but we know that one way or another in cities all over the country and all over the world, 00:58:04.800 --> 00:58:12.840 the prevailing model of church is, is not cutting it, uh, like it was years ago. 00:58:12.840 --> 00:58:22.060 And so we need cities, we need communities that function as a spiritual ethic on this earth, 00:58:22.080 --> 00:58:28.560 as a spiritual landing place where, where seekers can find the hope and the love of God. 00:58:28.560 --> 00:58:39.200 Uh, and so that's, that's our effort is brave cities is trying to, uh, very, by the way, just feeling around in the dark too. 00:58:39.340 --> 00:58:45.820 Like we don't consider ourselves experts by any stretch of the imagination. 00:58:45.980 --> 00:58:56.600 We're just, we're just willing to experiment as much as we can and experiment publicly to work on the technology, 00:58:56.600 --> 00:59:02.940 if you will, and to work on the, um, the architecture of building these kingdom ecosystems. 00:59:03.360 --> 00:59:03.940 Love it. 00:59:04.080 --> 00:59:05.760 I love every second of it. 00:59:05.820 --> 00:59:07.880 Well, man, thanks for feeling around in the dark. 00:59:08.080 --> 00:59:14.840 Thanks for experimenting, for trying, um, you know, post COVID anybody who's got these two things. 00:59:14.920 --> 00:59:15.700 They have this figured out. 00:59:15.720 --> 00:59:16.140 It's crazy. 00:59:16.460 --> 00:59:20.400 Uh, but thanks for being one of these voices out there trying to do something different. 00:59:20.600 --> 00:59:26.340 It, it, do you have like a, is there a website for brave cities or any place that if somebody's looking for more information they can head to? 00:59:26.840 --> 00:59:30.960 Yeah, brave cities.com is kind of, uh, in the works. 00:59:31.240 --> 00:59:42.080 Uh, there's probably a little bit there, but, uh, expect something like a, kind of a public launch with, within the next month or so. 00:59:42.200 --> 00:59:42.640 Awesome. 00:59:43.160 --> 00:59:44.200 So, uh, yeah. 00:59:44.340 --> 00:59:46.920 And also, also we're working on a book. 00:59:46.920 --> 00:59:56.820 I co-founded, uh, brave cities with Hugh Halter and, uh, we're working on a book by the same title that, uh, we've, we've essentially finished. 00:59:57.320 --> 01:00:02.240 But it's in the editing process and we hope to release within the next year. 01:00:02.720 --> 01:00:02.860 So. 01:00:03.500 --> 01:00:03.980 Awesome. 01:00:04.680 --> 01:00:04.900 Yeah. 01:00:04.900 --> 01:00:06.600 Hopefully there'll be more good stuff there. 01:00:06.860 --> 01:00:07.660 Very, very cool. 01:00:07.720 --> 01:00:08.500 Looking forward to that. 01:00:08.620 --> 01:00:12.600 Well, we got you, we got you on before you were famous, I guess. 01:00:12.660 --> 01:00:17.360 So before things blew up, uh, with, uh, with the book, but, uh, excited for that. 01:00:17.400 --> 01:00:20.780 And Hughes, Hughes, uh, a great resources as well. 01:00:20.780 --> 01:00:26.420 So, Hey, Taylor, man, thanks for jumping, uh, on this conversation and looking forward to seeing how. 01:00:26.840 --> 01:00:31.680 Uh, brave, uh, cities continues to develop, but, uh, we're going to land the plane, uh, for Taylor. 01:00:31.860 --> 01:00:34.240 This is, uh, oh, just certainly, uh, for Taylor. 01:00:34.360 --> 01:00:36.760 This is Jeff with the church digital and digital church network. 01:00:36.760 --> 01:00:38.600 Thanks for jumping on the podcast. 01:00:38.680 --> 01:00:39.640 We'll see you next time on the show. 01:00:39.900 --> 01:00:40.440 Y'all have a good day.