WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:10.400 So I had to get to a point, even though I'm a, you know, I'm a minister and I'm a technologist, but I had to understand, you know, let's take a look. 00:00:10.720 --> 00:00:17.420 We are, we are as a culture needing, even now more than ever, these safe spaces. 00:00:17.720 --> 00:00:27.000 So how do we help that translate when it comes to digital and even the metaverse realm? 00:00:27.000 --> 00:00:34.020 So there's a lot of history behind really the Black church and our role. 00:00:34.580 --> 00:00:42.420 So to take a building or a place of meeting out of that equation, it's kind of like, where are we? 00:00:42.700 --> 00:00:44.220 Welcome to the Church Digital Podcast. 00:00:44.960 --> 00:00:49.000 Through this podcast, we'll talk about the technological innovations within the church. 00:00:49.440 --> 00:00:53.500 But more than TED for Tech itself, we'll address deeper questions. 00:00:53.500 --> 00:00:56.200 Is disciple making possible digitally? 00:00:57.000 --> 00:00:59.220 How should we approach the digital mission field? 00:01:00.040 --> 00:01:02.740 Can a biblically grounded church operate in digital space? 00:01:03.480 --> 00:01:05.760 Oh, and where does the metaverse fit into all this? 00:01:06.640 --> 00:01:10.760 Whether you're a big or small church, an established church or a startup church plant, 00:01:11.500 --> 00:01:18.420 the Church Digital's goal is to help churches like yours learn to be a multiplying church, digitally and physically. 00:01:18.920 --> 00:01:19.860 Our heart? 00:01:20.380 --> 00:01:26.100 That churches like yours will discover a newfound focus on disciple making that will revolutionize your church. 00:01:26.700 --> 00:01:29.400 And now, here's your host, Jeff Reed. 00:01:29.980 --> 00:01:30.540 All right, hey, everybody. 00:01:30.700 --> 00:01:32.340 Welcome to the Church Digital Podcast. 00:01:32.640 --> 00:01:34.740 We've got episode 225 here. 00:01:34.820 --> 00:01:40.300 And it's actually going to be one of the first shows in a series that we're going to be doing off and on throughout the summer here. 00:01:40.300 --> 00:01:58.300 You know, so often I have conversations where we're looking at different contextualizations, different churches that are operating in different ways, thinking outside of the box, whether that's through fresh expressions, doing like a digital expression of church or a video game or a metaverse church. 00:01:58.300 --> 00:02:07.160 Or even, that's one of the things that I loved working with Stadia is we really started to explore the idea of how different races and different cultures are connecting into church. 00:02:07.680 --> 00:02:21.560 And honestly, I just discovered in my own life that there was, it was not a single way to do church, but that there was, there was freedom in a lot of these contextualizations to do something different to reach a different type of person. 00:02:21.560 --> 00:02:29.320 And so this summer, that really challenged me to maybe explore some different ways of how we're doing church digitally. 00:02:29.600 --> 00:02:40.160 And today's conversation is actually going to be one of the first, actually, it's the first conversation we're publishing, but one of the first conversations we're having on this as we're exploring the African-American church. 00:02:40.160 --> 00:02:49.300 And maybe some nuances of how an African-American church can, should operate digitally, maybe how it can connect better. 00:02:49.960 --> 00:02:56.140 Now, listen, up front, I just, I want to say something and I want to call the purple elephant out of the room. 00:02:56.480 --> 00:02:58.060 I am a white man. 00:02:58.480 --> 00:03:00.280 I'm bald with a goatee. 00:03:00.460 --> 00:03:04.640 I am like the typical looking pastor, American white pastor. 00:03:04.900 --> 00:03:07.220 That's pretty much like who I am. 00:03:07.540 --> 00:03:13.400 And so, but I've learned by doing digital metaverse ministry, it's better to ask questions than make statements. 00:03:13.400 --> 00:03:15.280 It's better to position yourself as a learner. 00:03:15.280 --> 00:03:28.480 And if you've ever listened to anything with these podcasts, you've known that it's far more often I'm asking questions and learning from the guests than I am trying to tell the guests what to think, because I don't know the answer to these questions. 00:03:28.480 --> 00:03:34.880 And even in the conversation of today, what would an African-American church look like digitally? 00:03:35.100 --> 00:03:36.240 What are some of the challenges? 00:03:36.360 --> 00:03:37.280 What are the opportunities? 00:03:37.740 --> 00:03:38.740 What can we do? 00:03:39.280 --> 00:03:49.200 I don't have the perspective because I've typically been involved in non-African-American, mostly white, but still multicultural churches. 00:03:49.400 --> 00:03:51.780 And so I want to learn from this conversation. 00:03:51.900 --> 00:03:57.820 I'm welcoming you to learn with me as well as I'm bringing it into the guest here, El-Michel Silvant. 00:03:58.440 --> 00:03:59.820 El-Michel, how are you doing today? 00:04:00.280 --> 00:04:02.480 Jeff, I love your intro. 00:04:03.040 --> 00:04:05.840 I am doing completely fantastic. 00:04:06.300 --> 00:04:10.060 Just glad to be here, enjoying the summer weather here in Florida. 00:04:10.440 --> 00:04:11.360 So as always. 00:04:11.620 --> 00:04:13.260 So yeah, I'm down here in Miami. 00:04:13.460 --> 00:04:16.560 As a matter of fact, last week I was vacationing in the Keys. 00:04:17.220 --> 00:04:23.240 And so it was like, you know, 95 with like 130% humidity. 00:04:23.980 --> 00:04:25.440 It was just brutal. 00:04:25.660 --> 00:04:28.000 Now you're up Tallahassee, am I right? 00:04:28.000 --> 00:04:29.440 Yeah, we're in North Florida. 00:04:29.760 --> 00:04:31.680 So yeah, a little bit closer to Georgia. 00:04:32.180 --> 00:04:34.240 Still sunshine state, still hot. 00:04:34.360 --> 00:04:35.720 But I love the summers. 00:04:35.960 --> 00:04:38.280 I prefer the sun over anything else. 00:04:38.560 --> 00:04:39.240 Yeah, okay. 00:04:39.380 --> 00:04:42.200 We can agree to disagree on that point. 00:04:42.380 --> 00:04:42.760 I went out of- 00:04:42.760 --> 00:04:43.220 There we go. 00:04:43.300 --> 00:04:44.120 We might as well get it. 00:04:44.120 --> 00:04:44.880 Let's get it started. 00:04:45.220 --> 00:04:48.280 Yeah, let's just roll into it and move on. 00:04:48.460 --> 00:04:50.340 But, you know, and truly, I do mean this. 00:04:50.460 --> 00:04:54.080 Like, I'm coming into this conversation a learner here. 00:04:54.160 --> 00:04:55.680 And so I want to put the disclaimer on. 00:04:56.280 --> 00:04:59.500 As I may say the wrong thing, I may use the wrong term. 00:04:59.620 --> 00:05:01.760 I mean no offense by this, anything here. 00:05:02.060 --> 00:05:16.240 As much as us trying to, with the Church Digital, try to draw attention to some of these nuances and how, if we're going to be effective in reaching different types of people, how we, the church here in America, need to think different. 00:05:16.240 --> 00:05:24.900 And how we can learn, we've got a conversation coming up with a Hispanic church here in actually Miami that's got global reach. 00:05:25.080 --> 00:05:30.620 We're talking with people from the German church and from African churches in Philippines. 00:05:30.760 --> 00:05:37.920 Philippines is actually the second largest country that is tracking with the Church Digital and Digital Church Network, which is weird to me, more than Canada. 00:05:38.400 --> 00:05:41.320 But for some reason, we've got a rather large Filipino crowd. 00:05:41.840 --> 00:05:43.920 And so this is a great learning opportunity. 00:05:44.060 --> 00:05:46.280 Elmichelle, thank you for jumping in right here. 00:05:46.400 --> 00:05:47.280 We didn't say it. 00:05:47.300 --> 00:05:48.060 Let's just intro it. 00:05:48.440 --> 00:05:52.780 Elmichelle, you run your own production company, Elmichelle Media. 00:05:52.940 --> 00:05:54.600 Why don't you just start kicking off here? 00:05:54.640 --> 00:05:55.600 Tell us a little bit about that. 00:05:55.600 --> 00:05:59.600 Well, Elmichelle Media, I guess we're about 14 years old now. 00:06:00.200 --> 00:06:06.280 We are basically an emerging media and technology company. 00:06:06.580 --> 00:06:12.480 We specialize mostly in consulting and training, work a lot in the education sector. 00:06:12.480 --> 00:06:26.960 But our base and what got us started even in this business itself was the church being a help to the very church that we're talking about now, the churches that we're talking about now. 00:06:26.960 --> 00:06:49.980 So anything from web design, which was emerging at the time in 2008 with kind of like the WordPress, your do-it-yourself web design, through social to now into immersive and more of the metaverse, we're teaching, we're training on this, we're helping equip teams in this area. 00:06:49.980 --> 00:07:02.320 And then we also have a strong student base where we do these different learning experiences to help students be more positive in times like these and to move forward. 00:07:02.540 --> 00:07:04.800 We are media that moves you forward. 00:07:05.260 --> 00:07:08.340 And so that's kind of like the basis of what the company does. 00:07:08.340 --> 00:07:14.220 Yeah, Elmichelle was one of the speakers at Leadership Network's Metaverse Church Summit, which was a couple weeks ago. 00:07:14.320 --> 00:07:16.420 We'll put a link in the show notes where you can grab that. 00:07:16.840 --> 00:07:17.860 She stole the show. 00:07:18.820 --> 00:07:20.340 The majority of it was virtual reality. 00:07:20.480 --> 00:07:25.800 She came in talking augmented reality and immersive journaling and all sorts of stuff. 00:07:25.920 --> 00:07:27.040 And I've said this publicly. 00:07:27.160 --> 00:07:29.040 I think I even said it within the summit. 00:07:29.520 --> 00:07:30.920 I've gone ahead and claimed it. 00:07:31.040 --> 00:07:34.480 For me, Elmichelle is the most interesting person I've met in 2022. 00:07:34.960 --> 00:07:37.200 I don't care who else I meet for the rest of the year. 00:07:37.200 --> 00:07:40.600 If you really unpack who this woman is, it's incredible. 00:07:41.100 --> 00:07:46.940 And so I would love for you, we'll put some links in the show notes, really check in some of the stuff that she's working on, 00:07:47.020 --> 00:08:01.400 because she is one of the bleeding edges right now of what church, of what Christianity is going to look like as the metaverse continues to, I guess, reveal itself, unravel, unfold. 00:08:01.540 --> 00:08:02.540 I don't know what the term is there. 00:08:02.620 --> 00:08:04.220 So we're really good there. 00:08:04.540 --> 00:08:07.620 And the context of this conversation, we want to dig in. 00:08:08.100 --> 00:08:16.340 So Elmichelle, you're a high level, a volunteer leader at your church there up in northern Florida called Higher Dimension Church. 00:08:16.420 --> 00:08:20.340 Why don't you just tell us a little bit kind of like what serving looks like for the church there at Higher Dimension? 00:08:20.640 --> 00:08:29.740 Oh my gosh, Higher Dimension Church, Tallahassee, where the pastors, got to give a shout out to my pastors, Carlos and Nikki Collins, of course. 00:08:30.760 --> 00:08:36.400 Our church, very apostolic and prophetic in nature, operates in the fivefold ministry. 00:08:37.040 --> 00:08:42.820 We started it from the ground up, so it's kind of like being a part of the launch team. 00:08:44.060 --> 00:08:53.240 It is the first of what I believe will be many church plants under the Higher Dimension Church, Tallahassee brand. 00:08:53.860 --> 00:08:59.680 What it's like to serve, my husband and I are, we both serve in the area of media. 00:09:00.260 --> 00:09:09.200 I'm the media director in Tidal and also work with the women's ministry and the missions team. 00:09:09.200 --> 00:09:13.860 But it's all hands on deck, especially when it comes to media. 00:09:14.380 --> 00:09:22.280 It's our pastors, we are more on the side of being servant leaders. 00:09:22.700 --> 00:09:30.620 And so even when you lead in a section, you lead, the strongest leaders are those who are serving the most. 00:09:30.700 --> 00:09:32.640 It's kind of like our mentality. 00:09:32.640 --> 00:09:40.220 And so when it comes to media, all areas of media, I oversee those areas. 00:09:40.400 --> 00:09:49.480 And then I'm also given the creative freedom to introduce new and emerging media and technology and just digital, 00:09:49.680 --> 00:09:55.980 even before the pandemic, our pastors have just been very, very open to that. 00:09:55.980 --> 00:10:06.700 And I would say that that is a huge step in ministry in general, and especially, you know, in African-American church. 00:10:07.080 --> 00:10:11.400 We are tech people by nature. 00:10:11.400 --> 00:10:17.540 You know, you could look at numbers and the things we consume and who's on the networks. 00:10:17.760 --> 00:10:20.440 You know, we're there as African-Americans. 00:10:20.440 --> 00:10:33.520 But a lot of times on the creative end, there are, of course, it's a very huge underrepresentation of, you know, the culture in these areas. 00:10:33.640 --> 00:10:34.920 So how does that translate? 00:10:35.100 --> 00:10:38.880 What does that mean as it comes down to the churches? 00:10:38.880 --> 00:10:51.220 Sometimes due to us not being in these areas as a culture in the area of creating, consuming, yeah, we're there. 00:10:51.360 --> 00:10:53.360 But are we creating in those spaces? 00:10:53.820 --> 00:11:04.220 Sometimes in the church, there's maybe not the openness as much as you maybe see in other ministries to the new technology, 00:11:04.220 --> 00:11:11.800 just because there's not sometimes a face on it that looks like our face or an understanding of it. 00:11:12.120 --> 00:11:17.880 So sometimes just in that sense, we can see a little bit of a digital divide. 00:11:17.880 --> 00:11:34.800 A lot of times it could be access to, you know, things like Wi-Fi and just different things that might hinder the effectiveness of digital, virtual, and even metaverse ministry. 00:11:35.220 --> 00:11:46.580 But we, I am blessed to get to your original question, to serve with leaders who are very open to what we call ways to really connect. 00:11:47.100 --> 00:11:54.400 At one time, I had even proposed, I said, you know, pastors, instead of being the media ministry, we should be the connect ministry. 00:11:54.720 --> 00:12:03.900 We are the people who are using all this technology and trying to find ways to connect the message with people no matter where they are. 00:12:04.340 --> 00:12:15.580 So that's just kind of like been our mindset, not to put any limitations on what we could do as it relates to media, because the ultimate goal is to make those connections. 00:12:15.860 --> 00:12:16.480 That's beautiful. 00:12:17.000 --> 00:12:19.860 Very long answer to your question, but hopefully. 00:12:20.120 --> 00:12:21.420 No, that's great. 00:12:21.420 --> 00:12:24.460 So then I'm pulling from what you just said. 00:12:24.540 --> 00:12:42.740 The primary way that you're using digital is that first impressions, is that connect, utilizing it to the social media, digital presence, website, broadcasting of church service, using that to pull people into a physical building for discipleship and more connection. 00:12:43.120 --> 00:13:03.060 Right, pull them in and then also reinforce messaging, because I think what the pandemic showed us, we were one of the, honestly, few churches in our area during the pandemic that decided to close. 00:13:04.400 --> 00:13:14.020 Or to, let me not say close, I like the way our pastors, the husband and wife pastoral team, to expand. 00:13:14.280 --> 00:13:22.720 So to expand beyond the building and to pursue more of a virtual first approach during the pandemic. 00:13:23.060 --> 00:13:32.620 I would say about six months prior, we were just working very hard to make sure streaming online was effective. 00:13:32.940 --> 00:13:35.960 And this was before it was necessary, okay? 00:13:36.240 --> 00:13:38.320 Before it was, let me say, commonplace. 00:13:38.360 --> 00:13:39.520 It's always been necessary. 00:13:40.120 --> 00:13:48.320 But at the time before the pandemic, obviously, majority of our congregation was in person and not online. 00:13:48.780 --> 00:14:00.880 But my husband and I, and we know it was only God, just really in six months prior to the pandemic, just for working, like, trying this software, that software, how to stream better. 00:14:01.080 --> 00:14:07.540 Let's get these cameras and the pastors were all in, not knowing where it was going to lead. 00:14:07.540 --> 00:14:23.140 So I say that to say this, we had the access and we were equipped, when the pandemic hit, to take a more virtual first approach, to be ready for what we call expansion of the church. 00:14:23.660 --> 00:14:24.880 Many were not. 00:14:25.440 --> 00:14:28.340 Many in the African-American church were not. 00:14:28.340 --> 00:14:38.300 Because, again, most of the worshipers or, you know, most of the members were in person. 00:14:38.820 --> 00:14:43.960 So there was, if you were streaming, it was just kind of like, yeah, okay, that's cool. 00:14:44.100 --> 00:14:47.400 But it wasn't just a priority. 00:14:48.160 --> 00:14:51.040 And so we made it a priority so we were ready. 00:14:51.240 --> 00:15:00.060 And we had more than a handful of pastors who were calling us right after the pandemic hit, calling our pastors, you know, how are y'all doing this? 00:15:00.100 --> 00:15:01.060 How are y'all doing that? 00:15:01.480 --> 00:15:13.380 And really just feeling like they could not afford, and I'm not just talking financially, I mean, just ministry-wise, not to meet in person. 00:15:14.140 --> 00:15:16.200 They were like, we don't have the infrastructure. 00:15:16.380 --> 00:15:17.740 I mean, we don't have the cameras. 00:15:18.040 --> 00:15:21.080 We don't have what you have. 00:15:21.220 --> 00:15:23.600 So the thought, the thinking was different. 00:15:24.260 --> 00:15:35.740 So a lot of people, many in our area and some in other areas where I know our pastors have friends in ministry and things like that, they'll say, we never shut down. 00:15:36.920 --> 00:15:42.180 And, you know, for us, safety and people, and like our pastor said, we have families. 00:15:42.300 --> 00:15:44.100 We have people with young children. 00:15:44.300 --> 00:15:46.100 We have mature adults. 00:15:46.400 --> 00:15:47.960 We can't afford to do that. 00:15:48.200 --> 00:15:58.020 And on the other end, people were like, we can't afford to, you know, close our doors and not be able to reach people at all with the word. 00:15:58.500 --> 00:16:08.980 So I think there's a challenge there with even having the kind of access or the foresight or the thought to think of it as digital ministry. 00:16:09.420 --> 00:16:15.200 You know, at the time, it was just something you do maybe, but it wasn't a priority. 00:16:15.580 --> 00:16:19.880 And many of the churches where, you know, I'm familiar with. 00:16:20.140 --> 00:16:29.040 You know, and that's some of the pre-COVID, some of the African-American churches that I worked with or tried to work with, honestly, were similar stories. 00:16:30.000 --> 00:16:32.620 You know, there was one, it was a pastor friend. 00:16:33.180 --> 00:16:34.640 He's like, he's like, Jeff, I'm okay. 00:16:34.680 --> 00:16:36.100 I want my message heard around the world. 00:16:36.560 --> 00:16:41.780 I want to see people get baptized in Ethiopia off of the sermons that I'm preaching. 00:16:41.780 --> 00:16:46.400 I want global missions to go and happen digitally. 00:16:47.060 --> 00:16:50.980 But can we block like the 50-mile radius around my physical church? 00:16:51.220 --> 00:16:54.600 Because I don't want lazy people staying at home watching this church service. 00:16:54.680 --> 00:16:57.540 I want them to come into the physical building. 00:16:58.060 --> 00:17:00.920 And we, honestly, that was a pre-COVID conversation. 00:17:01.460 --> 00:17:08.940 And as a result of COVID, they were one of these churches that pivoted and really stuck with the understanding of a digital long-term. 00:17:08.940 --> 00:17:11.580 It's been fun seeing this church kind of expand with it. 00:17:12.200 --> 00:17:24.660 But it seems like there's a lot of, and I don't want to overstate because I think a lot of the church, whether it's African-American or white or otherwise, a lot of the church is really grounded on physicality. 00:17:25.220 --> 00:17:40.180 But I'm wondering how much maybe is over and above, because I've seen so many churches, and I love how you said they can't afford it, and it may not even be the monetarily as much as just their perception of the physicality of it. 00:17:40.600 --> 00:17:45.940 How much of an African-American church is really grounded in this physicality? 00:17:45.940 --> 00:18:06.880 I, without having done, okay, official research, I would definitely say maybe 60 to 70% that don't have a virtual first approach. 00:18:07.020 --> 00:18:10.380 Maybe an appreciation, and that could be in the church worldwide. 00:18:10.560 --> 00:18:13.360 So there could be people who watch this and are like, we're not virtual first. 00:18:13.480 --> 00:18:15.580 We're in person first. 00:18:15.880 --> 00:18:19.800 But, you know, it's even in the language. 00:18:20.040 --> 00:18:21.320 It's in the thought process. 00:18:21.520 --> 00:18:24.980 You know, in many of our churches, we're the sound team. 00:18:25.460 --> 00:18:27.760 We're not even the media ministry. 00:18:28.460 --> 00:18:32.400 You know, when I'm talking to churches, I'm like, you know, this is a ministry, right? 00:18:33.020 --> 00:18:38.940 Or you're the place where I got to get somebody young, a young person to kind of oversee all that. 00:18:39.340 --> 00:18:47.100 Because, you know, the pastors, many, well, many of the leaders may say, you know, I have a lack of understanding of that. 00:18:47.880 --> 00:18:55.520 So sometimes the lack of understanding makes just the whole premise of it all just get thrown out. 00:18:55.640 --> 00:18:58.180 Like, you know, I don't understand it, so we're not going to do that. 00:18:58.240 --> 00:19:01.460 But what I do understand is people in pews. 00:19:02.020 --> 00:19:10.480 You know, I read in Nona Jones' book just about, you know, social media and those type things. 00:19:11.120 --> 00:19:18.380 Just kind of her frustration early on being a manager at Facebook over, you know, their faith-based initiatives. 00:19:18.380 --> 00:19:29.720 And hearing pastors say they were more really concerned, having more of an aquarium mindset, she said, than more of a discipleship mindset. 00:19:29.940 --> 00:19:32.160 How many people can we get in the tank? 00:19:32.680 --> 00:19:40.200 It's about how many people we can see, not how many people we can reach or would be willing to reach, whether we see them or not. 00:19:40.720 --> 00:19:44.980 And I think, you know, culturally, we're family-oriented. 00:19:45.260 --> 00:19:46.680 We're about community. 00:19:47.120 --> 00:19:48.300 We love it. 00:19:48.380 --> 00:19:49.520 We love fellowship. 00:19:50.260 --> 00:19:52.840 You know, our barbecues, that's our culture. 00:19:53.020 --> 00:19:54.440 You know, we want to get together. 00:19:54.600 --> 00:19:57.200 It's a place where you feel safe. 00:19:57.200 --> 00:20:10.320 You know, in the times where America was very challenged because there's still a lot of racial challenges, not maybe a lot of racial challenges, period. 00:20:10.980 --> 00:20:23.500 You know, it was the African-American church where we felt safe, where we felt free, you know, to worship, where we, you know, felt respected as a people. 00:20:23.600 --> 00:20:32.940 And so you start to think about those things and then you wonder, you know, how will that even translate into digital? 00:20:33.140 --> 00:20:34.460 What then do we become? 00:20:34.600 --> 00:20:42.300 Where then is the meeting space, you know, the place of connection, even for the culture? 00:20:42.720 --> 00:20:52.760 So I had to get to a point, even though I'm a, you know, I'm a minister and I'm a technologist, but I had to understand, you know, let's take a look. 00:20:52.760 --> 00:20:59.820 We are, we are as a culture needing, even now more than ever, these safe spaces. 00:21:00.120 --> 00:21:09.400 So how do we help that translate when it comes to digital and even the metaverse realm? 00:21:09.640 --> 00:21:16.380 So there's a lot of history behind really the Black church and our role. 00:21:16.380 --> 00:21:24.800 So to take a building or a place of meeting out of that equation, it's kind of like, where are we? 00:21:25.560 --> 00:21:29.060 And so it's a little bit of a balance on that end. 00:21:29.420 --> 00:21:33.800 But what I'm trying to say is, man, you talk about finding your tribe. 00:21:33.900 --> 00:21:35.260 There's so many people. 00:21:35.360 --> 00:21:47.600 We had a lot of people during the pandemic who moved due to employment, due to marriages and things like that, but they still wanted to be connected to the ministry. 00:21:47.820 --> 00:21:50.060 The ministry still felt like home. 00:21:50.220 --> 00:22:00.220 So, you know, my, you know, argument is what do you do in those situations when you still want to feel like home, but you physically can't be there? 00:22:00.440 --> 00:22:03.760 You know, how do you accommodate that? 00:22:04.280 --> 00:22:12.720 So just trying to figure it out for some, is it worth it to figure out? 00:22:13.080 --> 00:22:15.300 You know, do they have the time to figure out? 00:22:15.700 --> 00:22:17.420 Some will say, well, we don't have an L. 00:22:17.940 --> 00:22:22.840 Or people, you know, it's not positioned to be priority. 00:22:23.320 --> 00:22:27.060 The message is positioned to be the priority, and it is. 00:22:27.640 --> 00:22:30.060 But I always say that we're the transportation. 00:22:31.200 --> 00:22:32.460 And so you got the message. 00:22:32.980 --> 00:22:36.480 But in one definition, media is known as, it's kind of like transportation. 00:22:37.060 --> 00:22:40.940 So you got to kind of have both to achieve the whole goal. 00:22:41.440 --> 00:22:48.700 So right now, I think as a church, especially with the different things that we see happening racially, we still want to be there. 00:22:48.780 --> 00:22:50.640 We still want to be the meeting place. 00:22:50.840 --> 00:23:01.940 But I think that we, just as a culture, want to move a little bit further ahead into these realms. 00:23:02.360 --> 00:23:04.360 But you got a lot of things to consider. 00:23:04.620 --> 00:23:17.420 There are still, and I work in some of these areas that are really rural areas where there's lack of access even to, you know, internet and Wi-Fi. 00:23:17.420 --> 00:23:23.560 You know, maybe you have hotspots and things like that, but will it hold up, you know? 00:23:24.040 --> 00:23:35.100 Sometimes that lack of access, then you say, well, then how do you reach those people, you know, who might be a part of your congregation or, you know, some have older generations. 00:23:35.100 --> 00:23:40.100 What we saw early on was a lot of use of phone conferencing lines. 00:23:40.760 --> 00:23:45.160 A lot of people just, you know, using phone conferencing. 00:23:46.020 --> 00:23:47.580 Zoom has been a winner. 00:23:48.160 --> 00:23:49.280 Zoom as a winner. 00:23:50.000 --> 00:23:55.940 Many people are learning really how to use Zoom, even if it's just a call in. 00:23:56.320 --> 00:24:05.320 And then we are seeing more and more people stream, use some of the streaming services we're using, like StreamYard. 00:24:05.420 --> 00:24:10.320 So we're streaming, you know, across multiple social networks and things like that. 00:24:10.320 --> 00:24:18.880 But I still don't think we're maxing out on the use of tools like the church online tool through, you know, Life.Church that's free. 00:24:19.240 --> 00:24:20.920 Some of the tools that we could. 00:24:21.560 --> 00:24:24.360 But then the question is, who's on the other side? 00:24:25.080 --> 00:24:31.520 Would they really be on the other side, you know, or would they just prefer to meet in person? 00:24:32.060 --> 00:24:35.240 Do you find that people are connecting digitally? 00:24:35.920 --> 00:24:39.480 Like, I mean, you've given a couple examples, like the person who moves away. 00:24:40.040 --> 00:24:47.560 You're also using digital as first impressions, trying to connect with a new person, trying to lead them into the building. 00:24:47.760 --> 00:24:58.220 Like in context of the streaming of the church service, do you think that is effective in connecting with someone that has distanced themselves or someone you've not met yet? 00:24:58.300 --> 00:25:02.860 Can you think of stories or examples where the stream of the service has been effective? 00:25:03.420 --> 00:25:03.900 Absolutely. 00:25:04.400 --> 00:25:08.460 In fact, it's been so effective. 00:25:08.740 --> 00:25:12.720 Our Bible study is now entirely online. 00:25:12.920 --> 00:25:14.400 So we still do. 00:25:14.900 --> 00:25:22.580 We are still in the hybrid service mode and probably looking to continue the course. 00:25:23.040 --> 00:25:24.180 I don't want to overspeak. 00:25:24.480 --> 00:25:26.800 My pastor said, oh, yeah, okay. 00:25:27.180 --> 00:25:28.800 Any more vision you have for us? 00:25:28.880 --> 00:25:42.080 But I do see that, you know, our Bible studies and even our Sunday services that are entirely virtual, the response is amazing. 00:25:42.600 --> 00:25:45.000 And people are connecting. 00:25:45.560 --> 00:25:47.280 People feel a sense of community. 00:25:47.640 --> 00:25:50.700 People are giving, which is another thing. 00:25:50.700 --> 00:25:56.960 You know, it does take financial resources to run ministry, you know. 00:25:57.200 --> 00:25:59.740 And that was another concern with many churches. 00:25:59.740 --> 00:26:02.960 If I don't see you, are you still going to give? 00:26:03.800 --> 00:26:07.740 We've been able to engage people in that way online. 00:26:08.120 --> 00:26:18.220 We have gained new people who come consistently, who live in distant areas outside of the area we live. 00:26:18.340 --> 00:26:24.600 They live in the area, but it's so far to commute that they just jump online. 00:26:24.600 --> 00:26:32.560 We even saw people were so used to us being online that when they would come in the church, we still stream. 00:26:33.220 --> 00:26:42.800 You would find people sitting in the actual service commenting online to the point where our pastor said, are we going to have to just take phones? 00:26:42.800 --> 00:26:46.940 I mean, because if you're in here, can you be in the building? 00:26:47.740 --> 00:27:00.140 Because people were, you know, just that used to and had gotten, you know, really, really acclimated with our online presentation. 00:27:00.320 --> 00:27:01.860 But, man, we had to work. 00:27:02.520 --> 00:27:04.320 And I will let you know that. 00:27:04.680 --> 00:27:11.320 I think on the one end, people don't get into it because they maybe don't understand it all. 00:27:11.320 --> 00:27:17.040 Well, I've heard the calls from pastors like, we check this equipment over and over again. 00:27:17.100 --> 00:27:20.100 And as soon as we go live, we hear the feedback on the mic. 00:27:20.460 --> 00:27:21.840 The camera doesn't look right. 00:27:21.940 --> 00:27:26.120 Like they just, they want to do it, but it just won't come out the way they want it to. 00:27:26.220 --> 00:27:28.440 So they're like, look, just everybody just come into church. 00:27:28.620 --> 00:27:30.680 That's what we know how to do well. 00:27:31.180 --> 00:27:32.200 But we had to work. 00:27:32.300 --> 00:27:33.820 We had to get the lighting right. 00:27:33.920 --> 00:27:40.400 We had to work on our sound, buy different mics, upgrade the internet service, you know, buy the software, 00:27:40.400 --> 00:27:50.700 whatever we had to do to make the online experience as good, if not even better than what we do in person. 00:27:50.960 --> 00:28:16.040 So when we have an in-person service, you either just have many of what used to be members just online or many of the current members online and just a very small group in person. 00:28:16.240 --> 00:28:19.180 So we're trying to navigate those challenges too. 00:28:19.180 --> 00:28:32.820 But in the early, early days, man, our pastors got a lot of pushback from inside and outside of the church about what we were doing. 00:28:33.740 --> 00:28:39.600 Because if there's one church in the area who's just like, yeah, we're not going back in the building yet. 00:28:39.720 --> 00:28:40.980 We're going to continue online. 00:28:41.100 --> 00:28:45.960 Then others in the area are like looking at other churches like, well, why aren't you doing what they're doing? 00:28:46.120 --> 00:28:50.140 So you had pastors that kind of wanted to have discussions about that. 00:28:50.480 --> 00:28:53.940 And then you did have some members that said, I just can't get into online. 00:28:54.440 --> 00:28:55.560 I don't feel connected. 00:28:55.980 --> 00:28:59.400 I'll have to go to a church that's just primarily in person. 00:29:00.060 --> 00:29:10.540 If being in a community that has that sort of mindset, you guys are looking at digital as first impressions to connect with initially, like you even talked about calling it connections. 00:29:11.060 --> 00:29:17.960 So what separated that mindset from what the crowd was telling you? 00:29:18.000 --> 00:29:20.540 Other churches in the community, it's not worth it. 00:29:20.820 --> 00:29:22.280 You can never get the tech right. 00:29:22.600 --> 00:29:24.060 It's just not even worth the effort. 00:29:24.220 --> 00:29:25.540 Let's just come together physically. 00:29:25.860 --> 00:29:27.040 We want to hang out. 00:29:27.160 --> 00:29:28.640 We value community. 00:29:29.260 --> 00:29:39.640 Your church has taken maybe a little different approach to what the typical African-American church, sorry for the stereotype, but the typical African-American church doesn't care anything about this. 00:29:39.680 --> 00:29:41.560 They don't want to put the effort into it. 00:29:41.600 --> 00:29:42.500 Maybe they can't afford it. 00:29:42.540 --> 00:29:43.480 I don't want to judge. 00:29:43.940 --> 00:29:46.000 But you're doing something different. 00:29:46.100 --> 00:29:47.880 You're going countercultural to that. 00:29:48.720 --> 00:29:57.720 What is it within your church, within the leadership, within you, that's helping to lead the church down a different path than what everybody else is? 00:29:57.940 --> 00:30:02.980 Well, what I'll say during the pandemic and even what continues was safety. 00:30:03.600 --> 00:30:06.360 That was our pastor's primary concern. 00:30:06.540 --> 00:30:16.080 It was safety and having a way to ensure that the message could continue to go out, but that people could stay safe. 00:30:17.140 --> 00:30:25.660 They did not want to go home and try to sleep at night, trying to bring everyone in the building for a message, and it wasn't safe. 00:30:25.900 --> 00:30:28.220 So that was just first and foremost. 00:30:28.960 --> 00:30:34.960 Secondly, it has always been about the word going forth. 00:30:35.040 --> 00:30:39.780 And we're not just saying that to sound like this is what you would say as a Christian church. 00:30:39.780 --> 00:30:48.940 It has always been about finding unique ways to have the word become a part of people's everyday life. 00:30:49.300 --> 00:30:57.600 So if that's on the social networks, if it's through creating a playlist on YouTube, wherever people are is where we want to be. 00:30:58.060 --> 00:31:00.140 It has always been the mindset. 00:31:00.660 --> 00:31:13.160 For other churches, I'm not saying, because I started the conversation saying, you know, as African Americans, we are, you know, trendsetters in a lot of ways or trend adopters. 00:31:13.160 --> 00:31:17.060 You put something out, you put something out, we, hey, well, we want it, you know, why not? 00:31:17.140 --> 00:31:17.940 We want to buy it. 00:31:17.980 --> 00:31:19.000 We want to try it. 00:31:19.000 --> 00:31:35.860 But it's the mindset sometimes of the Black church being so, you know, so much about fellowship and that safe space. 00:31:36.040 --> 00:31:41.500 It's hard to see how that translates into digital. 00:31:42.360 --> 00:31:52.660 We are that safe space in a culture that can be, well, in a world that can be scary at times for our culture. 00:31:53.040 --> 00:31:57.000 We're a place that you can come and relax and feel free and things like that. 00:31:57.000 --> 00:32:14.800 So a lot of the times, even if it wasn't finance, it could have been access, just not having the technology in the area or not having the willingness to see it as ministry and see it as the word going forward to continue to reinforce connection. 00:32:14.800 --> 00:32:16.980 For us, it was a no brainer. 00:32:17.120 --> 00:32:22.940 We felt like we've always feel like the word we have needs to be shared, needs to be out there. 00:32:22.940 --> 00:32:27.580 It's going to help someone's life somewhere, whether we see them or not. 00:32:27.680 --> 00:32:28.780 We want to put it out there. 00:32:28.900 --> 00:32:32.360 So we're constantly trying to find ways to do that. 00:32:32.680 --> 00:32:35.760 I even have a branch of what I do through the company. 00:32:35.920 --> 00:32:39.260 It's called JC Publicity, Jesus Christ Publicity. 00:32:39.760 --> 00:32:52.840 Since 2005, it's always been about getting the word out and talking about what Jesus is doing now and not letting location or, like you say, physicality stop. 00:32:52.840 --> 00:32:56.760 So we've always had a forward mindset about that. 00:32:57.640 --> 00:32:59.980 So on the software side, I've been there. 00:33:00.300 --> 00:33:06.680 But even on the tech side, our pastor has a, you know, a bit of a cabling and tech background. 00:33:06.860 --> 00:33:10.720 Just even in the church, there's always been technology. 00:33:10.940 --> 00:33:12.180 There's screens everywhere. 00:33:12.180 --> 00:33:21.180 Anything, any way we can use technology to enhance the faith experience. 00:33:21.580 --> 00:33:24.580 We've always, that's just always been a part of our DNA. 00:33:25.060 --> 00:33:36.140 Like even now we have these bracelets through link because we realize sometimes we send out updates and, you know, people don't get them or don't know how to get on the website or whatever. 00:33:36.140 --> 00:33:43.080 So we're like, why don't we give some bracelets that are powered with NFC chips so we can just connect with you that way. 00:33:43.160 --> 00:33:45.800 So we're always trying to strengthen the connection. 00:33:46.340 --> 00:33:48.660 I have never thought of using link in that way. 00:33:49.160 --> 00:33:51.020 I got to tell you right now. 00:33:51.580 --> 00:33:54.760 That was, that's a takeaway for me. 00:33:55.560 --> 00:33:56.920 That was really good. 00:33:57.120 --> 00:33:57.280 Yeah. 00:33:57.340 --> 00:33:58.680 We'll put a link in the show notes. 00:33:58.920 --> 00:33:59.320 Oh, totally. 00:33:59.540 --> 00:33:59.820 Oh, yeah. 00:33:59.900 --> 00:34:07.800 Because in all the bracelets, yeah, they update at once and then you control the updates and you just have your messages here. 00:34:07.920 --> 00:34:08.820 Why have a CD? 00:34:09.240 --> 00:34:13.060 Why have the, you know, you just have everything that someone needs right on their arm. 00:34:13.260 --> 00:34:19.440 Well, tell me, I mean, because your heart is, and your church's heart, I'm hearing this, get the message out. 00:34:20.480 --> 00:34:29.220 I want to maybe dig in a little bit here on types of content and realizing there's content that connects, 00:34:29.220 --> 00:34:34.300 but then there's content that leads to community where you can engage around that content. 00:34:35.180 --> 00:34:38.540 And we want to see like that engagement happen. 00:34:38.660 --> 00:34:43.580 We want to see connecting in the groups for deeper discipleship and things like that. 00:34:43.620 --> 00:34:45.620 We want to see, I mean, you said safe space. 00:34:45.700 --> 00:34:46.520 That's a great word. 00:34:46.900 --> 00:34:50.000 We want to, we want to create safe space digitally. 00:34:50.380 --> 00:34:55.800 Have you found that, even though we want to create safe space digitally, even though people are, 00:34:55.800 --> 00:35:00.340 there's a bias towards not going towards safe space digitally, maybe. 00:35:01.200 --> 00:35:07.220 Have you seen that types of content are more successful to create that safe space digitally, 00:35:07.460 --> 00:35:09.660 to create that, that engagement? 00:35:10.740 --> 00:35:12.640 Like, are you, what are you learning? 00:35:12.760 --> 00:35:14.420 And you've been running this company over 14 years. 00:35:14.500 --> 00:35:16.580 What have you learned in this space? 00:35:16.840 --> 00:35:21.880 I think that you have to be intentional about it. 00:35:21.980 --> 00:35:29.060 And to be quite honest with you, this is why I joined, not to just try to plug it or give 00:35:29.060 --> 00:35:33.860 you a warm and fuzzy, like our pastor would say, digital church network. 00:35:33.860 --> 00:35:43.160 Because I realized we were tech forward, but to really dig into media ministry and digital 00:35:43.160 --> 00:35:48.600 discipleship, that's a whole other level. 00:35:49.060 --> 00:35:57.580 That's a whole other level that we have, even in all my tech forwardness, yet to really tap. 00:35:58.300 --> 00:36:03.280 Like, we know how to put, we're doing all the basics really well. 00:36:03.860 --> 00:36:05.380 We'll put a flyer out. 00:36:05.500 --> 00:36:06.620 You're going to be notified. 00:36:06.860 --> 00:36:08.320 Like I said, we got in the praises. 00:36:08.500 --> 00:36:09.780 We're going to update the website. 00:36:09.940 --> 00:36:10.800 We're going to stream. 00:36:11.240 --> 00:36:12.480 We're going to be on time. 00:36:12.620 --> 00:36:16.100 We're, you know, going to take the pictures, let you know what happened. 00:36:16.100 --> 00:36:27.580 But as far as now we're looking at things like using groups more to, you know, even we call 00:36:27.580 --> 00:36:35.780 our members partners to do our partner trainings, to use these kind of tools and these platforms 00:36:35.780 --> 00:36:39.420 platforms to, like you said, create that community. 00:36:39.420 --> 00:36:41.660 We're bringing the people in. 00:36:42.240 --> 00:36:43.760 They're trusting us. 00:36:43.840 --> 00:36:45.300 We're a trusted voice. 00:36:45.980 --> 00:36:53.120 But empowering them in a way that you would have these kind of, these sessions in person and things like that, 00:36:53.520 --> 00:36:55.980 we're still, it's still in development for us. 00:36:55.980 --> 00:37:08.300 Because I think we are now finally making the shift into realizing this is a real ministry. 00:37:09.120 --> 00:37:11.400 Like some, I was talking to my husband about it. 00:37:12.060 --> 00:37:14.540 We don't have a digital pastor. 00:37:15.260 --> 00:37:22.900 Our pastor is the pastor, you know, and a lot of, I don't know how many other African-American 00:37:22.900 --> 00:37:29.840 churches have digital pastors or things like that, but I don't know any right off the top of my head, 00:37:29.900 --> 00:37:32.200 like personally, you know. 00:37:32.200 --> 00:37:40.080 So we, we realize that we now have to, we have all the tools down pat. 00:37:40.740 --> 00:37:42.760 We got it and we're going to use it. 00:37:42.860 --> 00:37:43.880 We're not scared of them. 00:37:43.980 --> 00:37:44.800 We're moving ahead. 00:37:45.240 --> 00:37:57.880 But now we are currently looking to develop more content to reinforce our digital ministry mindset. 00:37:58.600 --> 00:38:02.140 Now we're going to, our pastors are looking at the ads. 00:38:02.280 --> 00:38:03.220 I'm like, y'all know what? 00:38:03.460 --> 00:38:05.720 We need to do ads on Facebook. 00:38:05.900 --> 00:38:07.340 We should do these kinds of things. 00:38:07.740 --> 00:38:14.300 So it may be going from a super high-tech discussion now to a very basic discussion. 00:38:14.880 --> 00:38:21.120 But I think that that's just a very true statement of where we are. 00:38:22.140 --> 00:38:35.100 Because even with all our doing, we didn't quite grasp fully that this is a full-fledged ministry now. 00:38:35.820 --> 00:38:39.460 Let's build this community around these people who are coming online. 00:38:39.600 --> 00:38:41.340 And now we're, we're starting to do that. 00:38:41.800 --> 00:38:43.520 You know, I, I love that you said that. 00:38:43.560 --> 00:38:46.280 That's, that's really, it's, it's one of these tensions. 00:38:46.280 --> 00:38:58.320 I wrote a ebook a while back, what happens when church online grows up and what you're actually describing is this natural tension that, that happens as you start to do ministry in this space. 00:38:58.320 --> 00:39:07.820 And as you start to build community, it draws attention to, it's not just tech, there's discipleship, there's ministry opportunities that's happening here. 00:39:07.820 --> 00:39:10.540 And how do we let that grow on? 00:39:10.680 --> 00:39:19.860 How can we foster a safe space, an environment where that discipleship or multiplication can happen in digital space? 00:39:19.860 --> 00:39:26.060 Because otherwise, now you've taken people up to a point, but you don't have any infrastructure beyond that. 00:39:26.140 --> 00:39:35.260 Well, let me, I mean, let me just ask, like in the physical space, Elmichel, like what, what does, what does your church do beyond Sunday morning? 00:39:35.260 --> 00:39:48.200 You mentioned Bible studies earlier, it sounded like you're kind of separating Bible studies and churches, like what, what, outside of the Sunday morning service, what does discipleship actually look like at your physical church? 00:39:48.300 --> 00:39:51.040 And then the next question is, what would it look like to do that digitally? 00:39:51.220 --> 00:39:54.280 But, but first up front, you know, what, what would it look like? 00:39:54.340 --> 00:39:55.900 What does it currently look like at your church? 00:39:56.300 --> 00:40:02.420 Currently, it looks like a lot of outreach and mentoring. 00:40:02.420 --> 00:40:10.480 We have a women's mentoring program called the Ruth Project that's been going on since 2014. 00:40:11.080 --> 00:40:21.460 And so that's just really empowering women and girls to lead, lead by faith, step out into their purpose and produce things. 00:40:21.820 --> 00:40:25.860 Six months mentoring program is kind of like the foundation of it. 00:40:25.860 --> 00:40:37.740 And you go through and at the end of it, you, you birthed out something that you believe God has called you to do, whether it be a book or a movie or an album or, or whatever. 00:40:37.740 --> 00:40:43.220 And you do that using kind of like biblical and lifestyle principles. 00:40:43.860 --> 00:40:50.120 There's a similar mentoring initiative on the men's side of things called the Solomon Project. 00:40:50.860 --> 00:41:05.960 Otherwise, outside of those, there's outreaches, like we've done outreaches at, our prison ministry outreach is seven, eight years in, about as old as the ministry is itself. 00:41:06.320 --> 00:41:11.360 And doing ministry in the homeless community and things like that. 00:41:11.360 --> 00:41:20.240 But other than that, and maybe some special workshops and the partner orientation class. 00:41:20.380 --> 00:41:22.320 But that's, that's kind of what that looks like. 00:41:23.240 --> 00:41:25.240 What would that look like digitally? 00:41:25.880 --> 00:41:48.460 Well, we, we have had some of the mentorship meetings online and develop more of a hybrid approach to that, but still trying to get our footing and feeling that stick like we would, you know, that, that, that sense of community and togetherness like we would when we're in person. 00:41:49.460 --> 00:41:53.880 And getting people to come and have that same intensity. 00:41:53.880 --> 00:42:02.000 People do seem to be a little bit more relaxed about that, but we're still, we're a work in progress in this area. 00:42:02.000 --> 00:42:11.140 And we're okay with that because if we've been forward in everything else and we'll do it until we get it, we're going to be kind of like the same way in here. 00:42:11.500 --> 00:42:18.860 There's something to it that I do want to note though, that caught the attention of some other ministries early on when we were doing our virtual services. 00:42:18.860 --> 00:42:20.220 And we continue to do that. 00:42:20.860 --> 00:42:32.300 One of the members of our hospitality team, one of the ushers, started literally transferring those skills from in-person to online. 00:42:32.480 --> 00:42:37.620 So as people would show up, she would be in the chat like, well, hello, Jeff. 00:42:37.680 --> 00:42:39.340 We're so glad that you're here. 00:42:39.420 --> 00:42:42.480 Or if Jeff makes a comment, she's like, you're right on about that, Jeff. 00:42:42.480 --> 00:42:48.720 And, you know, she since has moved on to another city, but can now continue to do that online. 00:42:49.460 --> 00:42:55.060 And other churches saw that and it was like, wow, we had never thought of that kind of like virtual ushering. 00:42:55.580 --> 00:43:09.560 So that was one thing that really sticks out that we continue to do that has made people feel that sense of community and being noticed, you know, but there's still a lot more. 00:43:09.560 --> 00:43:12.100 A lot of people, it's just about being noticed. 00:43:12.220 --> 00:43:13.900 Our pastors too are good about that. 00:43:13.960 --> 00:43:18.560 If you come in and you say hello and that comment goes up, they're like, hello, Jeff. 00:43:19.000 --> 00:43:20.060 We see you out there. 00:43:20.140 --> 00:43:25.000 Hope you and the family are doing great or haven't ever met you, Jeff, but we're glad you stopped by. 00:43:25.100 --> 00:43:28.160 They're good at just trying to bring you in. 00:43:28.240 --> 00:43:37.960 But there's a lot more that we want to do to try to keep people in virtually as well, which is why I'm part of Digital Church Network, just trying to learn all I can about that to bring it back. 00:43:38.320 --> 00:43:40.100 Man, two plugs in one episode. 00:43:40.360 --> 00:43:41.120 This has been great. 00:43:41.200 --> 00:43:41.780 Thank you for that. 00:43:41.880 --> 00:43:43.160 I'll write you the check later. 00:43:43.260 --> 00:43:43.900 This has been gold. 00:43:45.220 --> 00:43:47.560 No, listen, honestly, I envy you. 00:43:48.180 --> 00:43:59.040 A church that has a solid foundation that's trying to figure out how to wrestle with some of this stuff digitally, looking at what do we need to reinvent? 00:43:59.300 --> 00:44:00.420 Where do we need to think differently? 00:44:00.560 --> 00:44:01.980 Where do we just need to port it over? 00:44:02.420 --> 00:44:03.960 Hey, that guest service is volunteer. 00:44:04.700 --> 00:44:05.380 Give them a keyboard. 00:44:05.580 --> 00:44:06.460 Let them do some typing. 00:44:06.920 --> 00:44:09.040 It may not be as different as you think. 00:44:09.900 --> 00:44:17.360 The discipleship process, how you get somebody engaged within your church, how do you, you know, your next steps or connection or whatever the phrasing is. 00:44:17.560 --> 00:44:18.780 Some of it's going to be the same. 00:44:18.860 --> 00:44:19.840 Some of it's going to be different. 00:44:19.840 --> 00:44:36.400 And you're right now, you know, at the cusp of this journey where you're trying to figure out how to make some of these adjustments, how to get started on this, or how to strengthen, you know, maybe some of these opportunities that you're seeing. 00:44:36.920 --> 00:44:40.700 What, what's the, so your church is seeing this. 00:44:41.240 --> 00:44:48.040 What's the, what's the, what's the largest obstacle that's preventing other African-American churches from seeing this? 00:44:48.120 --> 00:44:52.660 I'm asking, forgive me, I may be asking you to speak to stereotypes and larger things. 00:44:52.840 --> 00:44:55.880 And, but, but the heart of this is like, is it, is it financial? 00:44:56.300 --> 00:45:01.580 Is it a lack of, of missions, understanding a bigger picture? 00:45:01.880 --> 00:45:04.400 Like, just what, what do you, what do you feel? 00:45:04.400 --> 00:45:09.920 I definitely think it is lack of understanding the bigger picture. 00:45:10.700 --> 00:45:12.080 The resources are there. 00:45:12.800 --> 00:45:16.440 The African-American church, faithful, committed, loyal. 00:45:17.520 --> 00:45:24.400 Going to do what they can to see the ministry move forward. 00:45:25.280 --> 00:45:29.540 Building, putting the money into buildings and things like that. 00:45:29.540 --> 00:45:41.200 Going to do that, but not seeing the vision of why, really pouring resources into the digital space. 00:45:41.380 --> 00:45:42.720 Like how that's going to work. 00:45:43.180 --> 00:45:45.000 And then sometimes it's the manpower. 00:45:45.840 --> 00:45:50.820 I've worked with certain pastors who are like, okay, Elle, get you over here to train. 00:45:51.200 --> 00:45:53.840 We're going to get on this, get on this ship. 00:45:54.120 --> 00:45:55.360 We're going for it. 00:45:55.800 --> 00:45:58.480 And then the next month I'll be like, so how's it going? 00:45:58.900 --> 00:46:00.520 They don't even do it anymore. 00:46:01.580 --> 00:46:06.700 I don't, you know, they were on the camera one week and I don't know where they are now. 00:46:06.980 --> 00:46:15.000 Or I, you know, or, you know, it's just for some reason, the media ministry in a lot of these, 00:46:15.000 --> 00:46:19.060 our churches has become like the pool to a house. 00:46:19.960 --> 00:46:21.800 Oh yeah, we might get that pool one day. 00:46:22.000 --> 00:46:22.460 I don't know. 00:46:23.560 --> 00:46:29.080 Instead of a main room in the home, you know, it's still a pool. 00:46:29.440 --> 00:46:30.640 It's still an option. 00:46:30.840 --> 00:46:32.680 You know, we may, we're working on it. 00:46:33.000 --> 00:46:33.780 We don't know. 00:46:34.340 --> 00:46:36.220 Or pretty much everybody's back now. 00:46:36.300 --> 00:46:37.820 So now we really don't know. 00:46:38.460 --> 00:46:46.320 Instead of, I think it's, I don't think it's the lack of resources financially as much as 00:46:46.320 --> 00:46:55.320 it is the lack of knowledge and someone who wants to see this as ministry and wants to 00:46:55.320 --> 00:46:56.380 do it consistently. 00:46:56.960 --> 00:47:05.840 As much as our pastors, and this is not to, to my own horn or my husband's horn, but this 00:47:05.840 --> 00:47:09.740 is to make a point of how serious we are about media ministry. 00:47:10.260 --> 00:47:16.700 If they were going to preach the word, we were going to be at their house, setting up cameras 00:47:16.700 --> 00:47:19.240 and doing whatever we could do early. 00:47:19.740 --> 00:47:23.980 However, staying late, whatever we were going to do to get the feed, right. 00:47:24.160 --> 00:47:26.560 We were going to be there throughout the pandemic. 00:47:26.720 --> 00:47:27.940 We did not take a break. 00:47:29.040 --> 00:47:33.480 If they were going to preach, we were going to get the tech right to make it happen. 00:47:34.320 --> 00:47:35.660 It wasn't an option. 00:47:36.460 --> 00:47:43.920 So I think getting our churches, people in our churches, the black churches to get to the 00:47:43.920 --> 00:47:45.740 point where media is not an option. 00:47:46.920 --> 00:47:49.040 Not understanding is not an option. 00:47:50.080 --> 00:47:50.360 Okay. 00:47:50.380 --> 00:47:51.620 I'm gonna have to take a class. 00:47:51.700 --> 00:47:51.900 Okay. 00:47:51.920 --> 00:47:53.020 I'm gonna have to get somebody. 00:47:53.020 --> 00:48:00.640 I'm gonna have to let someone know we are passionate because, you know, we're a very soulful people. 00:48:00.860 --> 00:48:06.620 I'm not, I don't want to overstate that for everyone, but we are in my house. 00:48:06.700 --> 00:48:07.020 Okay. 00:48:07.420 --> 00:48:08.420 Very soulful. 00:48:08.540 --> 00:48:09.540 We love music. 00:48:09.680 --> 00:48:10.660 We love these things. 00:48:11.460 --> 00:48:12.760 You, you come to our churches. 00:48:13.020 --> 00:48:18.560 You better believe those musicians are going to be on paid staff. 00:48:18.960 --> 00:48:25.520 You're going to have some music, but the media or things like that may take a backseat. 00:48:25.520 --> 00:48:31.960 So I just think it's also changing our view, reassessing our priorities. 00:48:32.360 --> 00:48:35.340 And those things are important to what we've always had. 00:48:35.340 --> 00:48:42.640 But I think realizing that there are so many other people on the other side of your media 00:48:42.640 --> 00:48:47.000 or your digital ministry, whatever you want to call it, and beginning to invest in that, 00:48:47.580 --> 00:48:52.540 not just the equipment, but the knowledge is where we're lacking. 00:48:52.920 --> 00:48:53.400 That's gold. 00:48:53.920 --> 00:48:56.460 But let's, let's, let's get a little more practical here. 00:48:56.560 --> 00:49:02.460 That was, that was a solid answer of trying to figure out how to reassess and how to not, 00:49:02.540 --> 00:49:09.200 not build the pool one day, put it in a, in a piggy bank or a jar somewhere, put the money away, 00:49:09.200 --> 00:49:13.580 but, but actually like build it as, as a, a core part of the house. 00:49:13.720 --> 00:49:19.360 I told a pastor once, I was like, I'm digital ministry is not icing on the cake. 00:49:19.780 --> 00:49:20.640 It's the cake. 00:49:21.680 --> 00:49:25.760 And so that was, he, he told me it was, he's like, Jeff, you're icing on the cake. 00:49:25.760 --> 00:49:29.820 And I was like, that may be the most offensive thing you've ever said to me in our entire lives 00:49:29.820 --> 00:49:30.080 together. 00:49:30.080 --> 00:49:32.160 We were, we'd known each other a long time at that point. 00:49:33.040 --> 00:49:36.860 But it's just, it's understanding that, well, but let me ask him, let's, let's, cause you 00:49:36.860 --> 00:49:41.880 with, uh, with the African-American context here, um, Hey, somebody's interested in doing 00:49:41.880 --> 00:49:42.200 this. 00:49:42.380 --> 00:49:45.380 Maybe it's, maybe it's, it's, it's, it's an equivalent of you. 00:49:45.520 --> 00:49:50.040 It's a high level volunteer, um, not a pastor on staff. 00:49:50.120 --> 00:49:52.440 They're listening to this podcast and they're excited. 00:49:52.540 --> 00:49:53.120 They're motivated. 00:49:53.280 --> 00:49:54.420 They want to do something. 00:49:54.500 --> 00:49:57.840 They've got ideas that you are speaking literally to the L. 00:49:57.880 --> 00:50:00.360 Michelle version of another African-American church. 00:50:00.700 --> 00:50:02.140 Um, how do they get started? 00:50:02.860 --> 00:50:04.400 What, what advice can you give them? 00:50:04.400 --> 00:50:10.260 Well, the first thing is I would join a network of like-minded people. 00:50:11.420 --> 00:50:19.300 I think you, you know, speaking to you, wherever you are, you need consistent reinforcement yourself 00:50:19.300 --> 00:50:27.820 to keep that fire burning and to keep learning yourself, you know, eat, just really immerse 00:50:27.820 --> 00:50:31.440 yourself in, in digital discipleship. 00:50:31.440 --> 00:50:37.800 Look at it like that, begin to, you know, uh, get an understanding of the platforms. 00:50:37.800 --> 00:50:43.620 But also if I could look back, another thing you could be getting an understanding of is 00:50:43.620 --> 00:50:50.940 the type of content that could build digital, that, that, that you could do as a digital 00:50:50.940 --> 00:50:53.380 ministry to build community. 00:50:53.380 --> 00:51:01.060 So the first thing would be connections like, uh, you know, digital church network or whatever 00:51:01.060 --> 00:51:06.320 groups that you could find online, Facebook groups that just really kind of speak to media 00:51:06.320 --> 00:51:11.820 ministry, reach out to me, you know, I'll try to connect you, uh, in any way I can. 00:51:11.820 --> 00:51:20.680 The second thing that I'm really going to recommend, and this is key is simple, but it's key is to 00:51:20.680 --> 00:51:28.260 have a meeting with your leadership, not under pressure, not right after they preach Sunday, 00:51:28.260 --> 00:51:35.900 because take it from me, many years in this, a lot of my nose came because I came at the wrong time. 00:51:36.400 --> 00:51:37.320 They're right off the pole. 00:51:37.500 --> 00:51:41.060 You know, pastor, what we really need to do, we really need to buy this. 00:51:41.200 --> 00:51:45.020 It's kind of like, can I just calm down for a minute? 00:51:45.120 --> 00:51:47.320 Let's talk about this another time. 00:51:48.020 --> 00:51:50.140 Don't let that lead to offense. 00:51:50.960 --> 00:51:57.780 Just set up a meeting at a time where you could, uh, have the attention of your leadership. 00:51:57.780 --> 00:52:04.340 And really after you've done maybe a little more research or, you know, listen to some 00:52:04.340 --> 00:52:07.960 talks, you could go on YouTube and listen to talks. 00:52:08.380 --> 00:52:14.540 You could subscribe to Barna, uh, their full access plan online and read reports and different 00:52:14.540 --> 00:52:20.700 things like this, but have a talk with your leadership about to, to gauge their feelings 00:52:20.700 --> 00:52:21.960 on digital ministry. 00:52:22.380 --> 00:52:29.000 That would be two, not in any particular order, but kind of in a little bit of order. 00:52:29.300 --> 00:52:29.620 Okay. 00:52:29.860 --> 00:52:33.760 And the third thing that I would recommend, be consistent. 00:52:35.040 --> 00:52:38.240 Don't put your hand to the plow, man, and then let it go. 00:52:38.920 --> 00:52:43.860 If this is what you say you're going to do, you know how important media ministry is? 00:52:43.960 --> 00:52:45.320 The Bible. 00:52:45.820 --> 00:52:48.180 Wasn't that the first printed book, Jeff? 00:52:48.380 --> 00:52:49.620 Back me up on this, right? 00:52:49.680 --> 00:52:52.840 The Gutenberg press first printed book. 00:52:53.380 --> 00:52:56.560 Longest ever in circulation is the Bible. 00:52:56.720 --> 00:52:57.820 That was technology. 00:52:58.120 --> 00:52:59.180 That was media. 00:52:59.560 --> 00:53:00.520 We did that. 00:53:01.100 --> 00:53:07.200 You know, the message was there, but without the vehicle, you know, you can't reach the 00:53:07.200 --> 00:53:07.520 people. 00:53:07.660 --> 00:53:10.660 So if you say you're going to do this, be consistent. 00:53:10.960 --> 00:53:12.740 That's what your pastors are looking for. 00:53:12.740 --> 00:53:16.540 And last, but certainly not least, meet your ministry right where they are. 00:53:17.000 --> 00:53:18.560 You know who's in your church. 00:53:19.100 --> 00:53:22.060 So you might see, oh, higher dimensions doing this. 00:53:22.120 --> 00:53:28.160 So you want to do this because we're doing it, but you don't know the reason why we're 00:53:28.160 --> 00:53:29.520 doing it like this. 00:53:30.060 --> 00:53:33.760 Know your membership and start with where they are. 00:53:34.280 --> 00:53:37.980 If it's just a conference call, hey, that's using technology. 00:53:38.480 --> 00:53:39.800 Let's max out. 00:53:39.920 --> 00:53:42.920 Let's be the goats of conference calls. 00:53:43.280 --> 00:53:44.560 Greatest of all time, man. 00:53:44.600 --> 00:53:46.420 You can't beat us on these calls. 00:53:47.240 --> 00:53:48.940 Then move on to Zoom. 00:53:49.380 --> 00:53:50.360 Be real. 00:53:51.120 --> 00:53:55.420 Have a sustainable plan, not just a flash in the pan. 00:53:55.820 --> 00:53:58.880 This is like, this is for real, man. 00:53:58.940 --> 00:54:00.240 This is not a game. 00:54:00.840 --> 00:54:02.140 This is media ministry. 00:54:02.260 --> 00:54:05.000 We're talking about reaching people with the word. 00:54:06.200 --> 00:54:07.560 Get connected yourself. 00:54:08.620 --> 00:54:13.680 Have a meeting with your leadership at the appropriate time. 00:54:14.100 --> 00:54:15.060 Don't delay, though. 00:54:15.880 --> 00:54:16.720 Have the meeting. 00:54:16.920 --> 00:54:22.240 Request the meeting and continue to meet about that so you'll have the vision right that you're 00:54:22.240 --> 00:54:23.120 putting out there. 00:54:23.700 --> 00:54:24.380 You know what I mean? 00:54:24.980 --> 00:54:28.440 Be consistent and know those you labor among. 00:54:29.540 --> 00:54:31.000 Meet them where they are. 00:54:31.460 --> 00:54:36.100 Yeah, I wish somebody would have told me that advice right there, all four of those, like 00:54:36.100 --> 00:54:37.040 a decade ago. 00:54:37.720 --> 00:54:44.380 I cannot tell you how many awkward conversations I've had in a moment of frustration on a Sunday 00:54:44.380 --> 00:54:50.900 after church when that pastor is like, I don't want to hear anything from you right now. 00:54:51.320 --> 00:54:52.620 I want to connect to people. 00:54:52.740 --> 00:54:54.020 I want to do other things. 00:54:54.940 --> 00:55:02.140 And so, like, for me, that was a huge lesson that, honestly, I learned somewhere around 2015, 00:55:02.420 --> 00:55:04.280 I think, is when that finally sunk in. 00:55:04.800 --> 00:55:06.260 So that was really good. 00:55:06.320 --> 00:55:08.040 By the way, you mentioned Gutenberg. 00:55:08.780 --> 00:55:12.360 Did you know Gutenberg was actually considered a heretic, like, for decades? 00:55:13.300 --> 00:55:24.580 People called Gutenberg basically a tool of Satan after he was printing the Bibles because when 00:55:24.580 --> 00:55:33.380 he was printing Bibles, he basically made pastors, the scribes, the people who were writing these 00:55:33.380 --> 00:55:36.100 Bibles out by hand, he basically got them jobless. 00:55:36.100 --> 00:55:36.840 They were unemployed. 00:55:37.520 --> 00:55:38.560 And there was a movement. 00:55:38.640 --> 00:55:40.740 Actually, I wrote a blog on this, I think, for Leadership Network. 00:55:40.880 --> 00:55:44.760 I wrote something recently on it where, like, Gutenberg was a heretic. 00:55:44.880 --> 00:55:53.280 He was criticized by a movement of people within the church because of what he was doing with his innovation. 00:55:53.840 --> 00:56:04.000 And so, like, for somebody who is, and I just would add to your glorious four there, El Michelle, for somebody who's thinking outside the box, tap this onto the network piece. 00:56:04.500 --> 00:56:05.340 Be encouraged. 00:56:06.620 --> 00:56:11.100 Realize that you're not, you're thinking different than everyone else is. 00:56:11.520 --> 00:56:13.180 And that's not necessarily a bad thing. 00:56:13.240 --> 00:56:13.600 It's funny. 00:56:14.000 --> 00:56:19.620 Just even while we're doing this email, I got doing this podcast, an email showed up. 00:56:19.920 --> 00:56:22.760 And there's a quote from Albert Einstein in this email. 00:56:22.900 --> 00:56:23.980 Let me read it for you right here. 00:56:24.540 --> 00:56:29.380 We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them. 00:56:30.160 --> 00:56:35.800 And so, it's like, you know, I've actually, I want to, like, proof check Albert Einstein on that because I'm going to, like, start using that one. 00:56:36.000 --> 00:56:43.220 But it's that different thinking of how we're doing ministry that's going to solve the problems of today. 00:56:43.620 --> 00:56:48.060 So, if you're alone, get connected with other people who think like you for encouragement. 00:56:48.280 --> 00:56:49.000 You need that. 00:56:49.340 --> 00:56:52.000 But that does not mean you need to stop thinking different. 00:56:52.120 --> 00:56:55.360 It needs that you need to start encouraging others to think like you. 00:56:55.760 --> 00:57:00.840 Start talking louder, just not on Sunday mornings after the service because that's a horrible time for that conversation. 00:57:01.400 --> 00:57:06.600 Yeah, man, I'm so, I'm so fired up after that. 00:57:06.600 --> 00:57:19.760 Like, this, even this conversation has fanned the flame because it's, you know, it is, that is amazing that you gave that story of Gutenberg. 00:57:20.320 --> 00:57:26.300 And then when you talk about think different, anybody with an iPhone, hey, that's Apple's tagline, right? 00:57:26.420 --> 00:57:26.600 Yep. 00:57:26.680 --> 00:57:27.220 Think different. 00:57:28.000 --> 00:57:32.100 And so, you know, you're valid. 00:57:32.620 --> 00:57:34.080 I want to tell you that. 00:57:34.700 --> 00:57:39.340 And don't ever stop because you know what's going to happen? 00:57:40.040 --> 00:57:47.000 One day, your leaders or the leaders, wherever you are at the time, are going to wake up to it. 00:57:47.160 --> 00:57:50.360 And the worst thing that could happen is you not to be ready. 00:57:51.200 --> 00:57:53.980 And you were the one who said you first believed. 00:57:54.720 --> 00:58:02.300 I found myself in that position a few times where the leadership has been like somewhere. 00:58:02.660 --> 00:58:04.700 And they'll say, our media person is here. 00:58:04.800 --> 00:58:07.040 She's been talking about the metaverse and all that. 00:58:07.260 --> 00:58:12.320 And just think if you would have just relaxed your grip, you won't be ready. 00:58:12.920 --> 00:58:18.800 So you got to stay true to what you believe because someday people are going to wake up and they're going to need it. 00:58:19.540 --> 00:58:21.640 Hopefully we won't have another pandemic. 00:58:22.140 --> 00:58:29.580 But thank God, me and my husband, and my husband more than me at the time, would not come off getting the stream right. 00:58:30.620 --> 00:58:32.800 We built that art when there was no rain. 00:58:33.460 --> 00:58:36.560 And when it rained, everybody was like, oh, my gosh. 00:58:36.600 --> 00:58:39.320 And even me, I was like, Chris, that's my husband. 00:58:39.380 --> 00:58:41.260 I was like, man, you really did it this time. 00:58:41.320 --> 00:58:44.020 Because we were positioned to win. 00:58:44.260 --> 00:58:48.340 We win people and to be there for people when they needed us most. 00:58:48.520 --> 00:58:57.940 And so I would just encourage anyone, and I feel encouraged myself, just that we have to go harder and reach people right where they are. 00:58:58.040 --> 00:59:00.880 There are people in the hospital who really need us. 00:59:00.940 --> 00:59:02.760 These are basic things we know. 00:59:03.060 --> 00:59:04.100 But do we know them? 00:59:04.580 --> 00:59:15.440 We have one of our partners in the hospital right now in recovery just recently to something that was just, man, so out of left field. 00:59:16.400 --> 00:59:22.020 But it felt really good to know, I'm going to be able to take your bracelet, brother. 00:59:22.840 --> 00:59:29.100 So even when you can't think of what that website is because you're on pain medicine, it's just too much. 00:59:29.140 --> 00:59:32.140 Or someone in the room doesn't know our church. 00:59:32.380 --> 00:59:33.460 What are you saying? 00:59:33.560 --> 00:59:34.620 You need to get on what? 00:59:34.700 --> 00:59:35.540 They don't understand. 00:59:35.660 --> 00:59:37.980 They just tap the bracelet, and you're good to go. 00:59:38.140 --> 00:59:38.420 You know? 00:59:38.660 --> 00:59:42.220 So we've got to start thinking like that, how we can meet people where they are. 00:59:42.480 --> 00:59:42.880 Beautiful. 00:59:43.500 --> 00:59:45.060 Well, Elmichelle, we're going to land the plane. 00:59:45.140 --> 00:59:46.380 This has been an incredible conversation. 00:59:46.580 --> 00:59:54.280 I've learned a lot, and hopefully some of the audience that's been listening, thank you for representing African-American churches. 00:59:54.280 --> 00:59:59.980 We're wrestling with how to help African-American churches be more effective digitally. 01:00:00.160 --> 01:00:04.760 By the way, Elmichelle, there's like dozens of different ways to connect with her. 01:00:04.860 --> 01:00:06.960 We're going to put all that information in the show notes. 01:00:07.400 --> 01:00:11.260 So feel free to slide over to that or check out thechurch.digital. 01:00:11.660 --> 01:00:21.280 And, of course, she's very active in Digital Church Network, which she plugged at least three times, which may be the most that's ever been plugged by any guest ever. 01:00:21.700 --> 01:00:23.600 So once again, thank you for that. 01:00:23.820 --> 01:00:25.840 But that is very appreciated. 01:00:27.320 --> 01:00:32.040 She's definitely one to check out and reach out to, so be sure to grab some of that. 01:00:32.800 --> 01:00:33.980 But, hey, we're going to land the plane. 01:00:34.500 --> 01:00:44.660 So for Elmichelle with Elmichelle Media and Higher Dimension Church, this is Jeff with the Church Digital, Digital Church Network, Leadership Network, and a whole bunch of other fun stuff. 01:00:44.740 --> 01:00:45.940 Thanks for jumping on the show here. 01:00:46.520 --> 01:00:47.600 We'll see you next time on the podcast. 01:00:47.760 --> 01:00:48.260 Y'all have a good day.