WEBVTT 00:00:00.060 --> 00:00:06.560 About 24 years ago, somebody asked me to be an apprentice in a small group, and the rest is kind of history. 00:00:06.700 --> 00:00:13.840 I mean, the leader apprenticed me, poured into me, met with me, taught me the responsibilities of leading a small group. 00:00:14.420 --> 00:00:20.080 And then eventually I became the leader of that group and had the privilege of investing in other apprentices after that. 00:00:20.220 --> 00:00:25.240 And a lot of cool experiences I had with that led to me being passionate about it. 00:00:25.240 --> 00:00:29.140 And so I just continued to invest in apprenticing small group leaders. 00:00:29.260 --> 00:00:37.840 And that's where I spent a lot of my time learning this kind of discipline of, you know, if you could, and if you'd be willing to go on a journey with me, follow me as I follow Jesus. 00:00:38.460 --> 00:00:40.900 And let's see what he does with this time that we have together. 00:00:41.060 --> 00:00:44.360 And so it's been kind of a fun road, fun journey for sure. 00:00:44.620 --> 00:00:46.100 Welcome to the Church Digital Podcast. 00:00:46.800 --> 00:00:50.880 Through this podcast, we'll talk about the technological innovations within the church. 00:00:51.040 --> 00:00:55.380 But more than tech for tech itself, we'll address deeper questions. 00:00:56.260 --> 00:00:58.120 Is disciple making possible digitally? 00:00:58.520 --> 00:01:01.100 How should we approach the digital mission field? 00:01:01.940 --> 00:01:04.640 Can a biblically grounded church operate in digital space? 00:01:05.360 --> 00:01:07.640 Oh, and where does the metaverse fit into all this? 00:01:08.440 --> 00:01:12.640 Whether you're a big or small church, an established church, or a startup church plant, 00:01:13.380 --> 00:01:20.300 the Church Digital's goal is to help churches like yours learn to be a multiplying church, digitally and physically. 00:01:20.780 --> 00:01:27.980 Our heart, that churches like yours will discover a newfound focus on disciple making that will revolutionize your church. 00:01:28.660 --> 00:01:31.280 And now, here's your host, Jeff Reed. 00:01:31.700 --> 00:01:33.920 All right, hey, welcome to episode 229. 00:01:34.020 --> 00:01:40.360 This is Jeff with the Church Digital Podcast and Digital Church Network and all sorts of fun stuff. 00:01:40.420 --> 00:01:46.160 And I can't wait to dive into this conversation with my friend over here from New Thing Network. 00:01:46.320 --> 00:01:48.600 Now, the topic we're dealing with, this is a two-parter. 00:01:48.880 --> 00:01:49.640 We're going to experiment. 00:01:49.740 --> 00:01:51.500 You hear me talking about experimenting all the time. 00:01:51.580 --> 00:01:52.320 Like, that's a good thing. 00:01:52.600 --> 00:01:54.880 And so we're going to experiment with a new method here. 00:01:55.340 --> 00:02:04.760 So we're doing a two-part dive here, exploring the idea of apprenticing, on multiplying our churches, our physical, our digital, 00:02:05.240 --> 00:02:08.520 even maybe our metaverse churches by apprenticing. 00:02:08.820 --> 00:02:11.180 And so what we're going to do is we're having this conversation today. 00:02:11.420 --> 00:02:17.540 And then in a couple weeks, we are going to do part two of this conversation on apprenticing. 00:02:17.780 --> 00:02:24.860 This part's going to be on a podcast where we're exploring the whys and maybe some of the philosophical ideas. 00:02:25.280 --> 00:02:27.160 Behind apprenticing and behind multiplication. 00:02:28.000 --> 00:02:31.100 And then in a couple weeks, we're going to get far more practical. 00:02:31.260 --> 00:02:32.660 So here's what I want you to do. 00:02:32.700 --> 00:02:38.280 I want you to swing over to thechurch.digital slash apprentice. 00:02:38.700 --> 00:02:45.560 Thechurch.digital slash apprentice for more information as we get into part two of this conversation on apprenticing. 00:02:45.680 --> 00:02:52.320 But then this just got weird because I've just totally talked about part two of a conversation, but we haven't even had part one for it. 00:02:52.320 --> 00:02:56.140 And so for that, let me bring into the conversation Eric Metcalf. 00:02:56.300 --> 00:03:07.320 Eric is a global associate director, associate global director, associate to the regional director of NewThing, so many associates or potentials. 00:03:08.040 --> 00:03:14.140 But essentially, Eric's man, one of these guys that's making it happen with NewThing Network globally. 00:03:14.260 --> 00:03:16.660 So Eric, thanks for jumping on the podcast here. 00:03:16.920 --> 00:03:17.560 Yeah, thanks, Jeff. 00:03:17.800 --> 00:03:21.960 Thanks for letting me join you as the Dwight Schrute of the NewThing organization. 00:03:22.140 --> 00:03:23.220 I am the assistant, too. 00:03:23.580 --> 00:03:25.740 By the way, let's just go ahead and go down this road. 00:03:25.900 --> 00:03:26.920 I had the pleasure. 00:03:27.080 --> 00:03:41.620 I was traveling last week, was watching a lot of TV late at night, and I had the pleasure of watching the series finale of The Office and then the series debut of The Office back to back. 00:03:41.620 --> 00:03:48.140 Like, it just, whatever network I was on, had them literally back to back the finales and then season one launch. 00:03:48.360 --> 00:03:54.160 I cannot think of another show that has changed so much over the span of its career than The Office did. 00:03:54.580 --> 00:03:59.820 From, like, the Steve Carell slapping you upside the head, painful to watch. 00:03:59.920 --> 00:04:00.300 Oh, yeah. 00:04:00.420 --> 00:04:06.440 To the romanticized ending where with Jim and Pam at the end where it's, oh, I don't want to do spoilers or anything. 00:04:06.660 --> 00:04:12.060 But I cannot believe how radical that show shifted over its span. 00:04:12.160 --> 00:04:14.600 It didn't occur to me until I saw it, like, apples to apples. 00:04:14.800 --> 00:04:16.500 It was a sad day when it came off of Netflix. 00:04:16.680 --> 00:04:17.620 That was a sad day. 00:04:17.880 --> 00:04:18.700 Where is it now? 00:04:18.700 --> 00:04:21.580 Is it on Paramount? 00:04:21.580 --> 00:04:22.460 Probably Peacock. 00:04:22.700 --> 00:04:24.260 Paramount, Peacock, one of those. 00:04:24.520 --> 00:04:27.380 One of those that's not doing well or has already closed. 00:04:27.480 --> 00:04:27.820 I don't know. 00:04:30.600 --> 00:04:36.220 Well, listen, Eric is far more than the Dwight Schrute, although Dwight Schrute ended up ruling everything when all was said and done. 00:04:36.560 --> 00:04:37.780 So, you know, maybe, I don't know. 00:04:37.860 --> 00:04:44.780 But at the end of the day, Eric is actually my boss or at least one of the people that bossed me around at New Thing Network. 00:04:44.940 --> 00:04:48.000 And so it's a pleasure to jump on this conversation. 00:04:48.140 --> 00:04:50.500 Really digging into apprenticing here. 00:04:50.500 --> 00:04:53.200 So share with me a little bit, Eric. 00:04:53.460 --> 00:04:55.580 Like, what is the why? 00:04:55.680 --> 00:04:57.900 I mean, let's just start with why on this. 00:04:58.120 --> 00:05:03.920 We look talking primarily digital churches, metaverse churches, church planters, you know, involved in these conversations. 00:05:05.060 --> 00:05:06.580 Why are we apprenticing? 00:05:06.680 --> 00:05:08.340 Why is it so important for us to apprentice? 00:05:08.820 --> 00:05:13.560 Yeah, I mean, I think part of it's the life change piece. 00:05:13.780 --> 00:05:17.600 We need people who are following Jesus that are helping others to follow Jesus. 00:05:17.600 --> 00:05:23.000 But it's also about having leaders to be on mission with us that can carry the vision and mission with us. 00:05:23.460 --> 00:05:25.560 And apprenticeship is the key in doing that. 00:05:26.120 --> 00:05:32.920 And if you look at the life of Jesus, you look at the Gospels, you can quickly turn to Mark chapter 3. 00:05:33.420 --> 00:05:39.440 And you can see in verses 13 through 15 that Jesus went up on a mountainside and he called to him those he wanted. 00:05:40.340 --> 00:05:41.400 And they came to him. 00:05:41.580 --> 00:05:42.680 And that's when he appointed the 12. 00:05:42.860 --> 00:05:48.400 He called them the apostles, that they might be with him, and that he could send them out to preach and have authority to drive out demons. 00:05:48.640 --> 00:05:59.520 And, you know, this passage is just a quick snapshot of Jesus' intentionality of pouring into these leaders and then sending them out and founding the church through those methods. 00:05:59.740 --> 00:06:04.400 And I think if we look to the Gospels, we can quickly see that. 00:06:04.540 --> 00:06:08.960 And then, of course, 2 Timothy 2, too, is another core passage when we talk about apprenticeship. 00:06:09.540 --> 00:06:14.160 And you have Paul and Timothy and the multiple generations of leadership reproduction. 00:06:14.160 --> 00:06:22.320 And we use those as kind of our core passages to remind us why we do what we do and why we're focused on that the way that we are. 00:06:22.720 --> 00:06:23.460 Well, that's great. 00:06:23.580 --> 00:06:31.480 So, like, when we're apprenticing, like, from a practical standpoint, what are we talking about doing here? 00:06:31.540 --> 00:06:38.260 We're talking about reproducing ourselves to make the ministry we're doing easier so that our churches grow larger. 00:06:38.260 --> 00:06:43.600 We're talking about planting and starting new churches, like, in a practical standpoint. 00:06:43.600 --> 00:06:48.660 And you were, I mean, you were one of the first guys really talking about this idea of apprenticing years ago. 00:06:48.780 --> 00:06:52.000 So what does this actually look like? 00:06:52.360 --> 00:06:57.160 Yeah, not to alliterate our way into heaven, but role, relationship, and responsibility. 00:06:57.540 --> 00:06:58.980 That's really what you're trying to do. 00:06:59.060 --> 00:07:10.260 You're trying to help shape and form and develop somebody into a follower of Jesus and then teach them some responsibilities that you're asking them to do on the other side of it. 00:07:11.160 --> 00:07:21.080 Sometimes, you know, when you start that relationship, what the responsibilities will be on the other side, because they're apprenticing to take on this responsibility that they're apprenticing in. 00:07:21.500 --> 00:07:26.620 Other times, it's a journey, and you're kind of, like, discovering that together in the apprenticeship. 00:07:27.220 --> 00:07:42.140 Part of why I'm such an advocate for it is because someone, you know, 24 years ago at Community Christian, which is the church where I attend, co-founded by Dave and John Ferguson, and I've been here on staff at this church over the years. 00:07:43.500 --> 00:07:49.980 About 24 years ago, somebody asked me to be an apprentice in a small group, and the rest is kind of history. 00:07:50.120 --> 00:07:57.260 I mean, the leader apprenticed me, poured into me, met with me, taught me the responsibilities of leading a small group. 00:07:57.920 --> 00:08:03.500 And then eventually, I became the leader of that group and had the privilege of investing in other apprentices after that. 00:08:03.660 --> 00:08:08.660 And a lot of cool experiences I had with that led to me being passionate about it. 00:08:08.980 --> 00:08:21.260 And so I just continued to invest in apprenticing small group leaders, and that's where I spent a lot of my time learning this kind of discipline of, you know, if you could, and if you'd be willing to go on a journey with me, follow me as I follow Jesus. 00:08:21.900 --> 00:08:24.320 And let's see what he does with this time that we have together. 00:08:24.500 --> 00:08:27.780 And so it's been kind of a fun road, fun journey for sure. 00:08:28.180 --> 00:08:30.040 Yeah, I mean, let's dig into that a little bit. 00:08:30.180 --> 00:08:37.360 So years ago, you were apprenticed through Community Christian to become a small group leader. 00:08:37.960 --> 00:08:40.140 So, you know, let's talk a little bit about that. 00:08:40.240 --> 00:08:41.860 How did that process go? 00:08:41.900 --> 00:08:46.700 How long did it take to be, quote-unquote, apprenticed as a small group leader? 00:08:46.840 --> 00:08:51.540 But maybe even beyond that, like, what were some of the next steps in the apprenticing? 00:08:51.660 --> 00:08:59.000 How'd you go from, you know, apprentice small group leader to associate global director of New Thing? 00:08:59.060 --> 00:08:59.700 What was that journey? 00:09:00.100 --> 00:09:12.760 Yeah, I mean, it was, you know, I always talk about, you know, it's strange and odd that God would choose knuckleheads like myself to serve in the kingdom because, you know, there's really nothing all that special about me personally. 00:09:12.760 --> 00:09:16.900 I'm from a small farm town in the middle of nowhere. 00:09:17.620 --> 00:09:20.740 The town I grew up in had just over 200 people in it. 00:09:21.240 --> 00:09:24.260 And I grew up on 40 acres of land on a farm. 00:09:24.780 --> 00:09:35.060 And somehow I found my way to Chicagoland through a series of God things and strange events and stepped into this church that I was doing an internship at. 00:09:35.240 --> 00:09:41.760 And while I was interning at Community Christian Church, I got asked to be this apprentice leader in a small group after shortly joining that group. 00:09:42.300 --> 00:09:47.280 And my apprenticeship was like 12 weeks. 00:09:47.280 --> 00:09:53.520 And during that time, the leader would meet with me and check in with me and ask me questions and kind of challenge me spiritually. 00:09:54.180 --> 00:09:56.020 Sometimes we call it the RPMs. 00:09:56.200 --> 00:09:59.760 So relationally, physically, mentally, and spiritually. 00:10:00.620 --> 00:10:04.480 And then they would, you know, talk to me about how to facilitate a small group. 00:10:04.560 --> 00:10:11.560 And over time, I started running the small group meetings and got feedback on that from the leader. 00:10:11.940 --> 00:10:14.660 We talk about that as the five steps of apprenticeship. 00:10:15.260 --> 00:10:17.000 The I do, you watch, we talk. 00:10:17.760 --> 00:10:19.380 I do, you help, we talk. 00:10:19.440 --> 00:10:20.100 And so on. 00:10:20.100 --> 00:10:22.560 And we can get into more of those nuts and bolts later if you'd like. 00:10:23.500 --> 00:10:27.100 But that whole process really launched me into becoming a small group leader. 00:10:28.220 --> 00:10:31.600 And because I was taught those things, I just did that with my apprentices. 00:10:31.840 --> 00:10:34.800 The difference was I recruited three apprentices in my small group. 00:10:35.340 --> 00:10:39.540 And I began to meet with them and meet with them one-on-one, but also meet with them as a huddle. 00:10:40.100 --> 00:10:47.220 And we eventually took that small group I was leading and multiplied it into three small groups, which led me into coaching small group leaders. 00:10:47.220 --> 00:11:00.020 And so I began doing that and did that for a season, apprenticed some small group coaches, and then I eventually became the director of small groups at that location and came and stepped into ministry at Community Christian. 00:11:00.760 --> 00:11:08.000 And then I eventually became the small groups champion over all the locations while also leading the one that we had in Naperville, which is our yellow box location. 00:11:08.780 --> 00:11:14.760 It was our largest site, and I had the privilege of overseeing small group ministry for the entire church during that time. 00:11:14.760 --> 00:11:19.740 And oftentimes, I'll say everything I learned about church planting, I learned in a small group. 00:11:20.400 --> 00:11:23.480 I believe if you can multiply at the micro, you can multiply at the macro. 00:11:24.500 --> 00:11:32.860 And if you can kind of keep those core principles aligned, you can really start to see movement over time if you're disciplined about it over a long period of time. 00:11:32.960 --> 00:11:38.900 And so I eventually became the director of New Thing because I was getting so involved in this kind of stuff. 00:11:38.900 --> 00:11:46.320 And we were organizing New Thing in a very similar fashion with the reproducing model and with apprenticeship at all levels. 00:11:46.640 --> 00:11:52.360 And that's how I became engaged as the director, working with John and Dave Ferguson and Patrick O'Connell now. 00:11:52.360 --> 00:11:53.320 Now, it's interesting. 00:11:53.420 --> 00:12:00.720 You were just talking micro and macro, and obviously, you've had a very storied career with community and moving in the new thing. 00:12:01.500 --> 00:12:07.980 Was there intentionality when you started out as a small group's director? 00:12:08.280 --> 00:12:10.460 Or not director, as a small group's apprentice? 00:12:11.140 --> 00:12:13.940 Like, is that, oh, this is where we start apprentices? 00:12:14.300 --> 00:12:16.100 Or was that where the opening was? 00:12:16.160 --> 00:12:21.000 Or is that where, like, your gifting led the person who was apprenticing you to start you? 00:12:21.100 --> 00:12:26.800 Like, what was the motivation behind putting you and starting you at the small group spot? 00:12:26.800 --> 00:12:35.540 Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, community, if you've read the book Exponential, or if you're familiar with Dave Ferguson, who's president, CEO of Exponential, 00:12:36.340 --> 00:12:45.940 if you know our story at all, we do have the long view in mind when we ask someone to become an apprentice on a team or in a small group, 00:12:45.940 --> 00:12:48.300 which is kind of at the micro level. 00:12:48.680 --> 00:12:56.760 But not everybody's going to go through that leadership path and someday start a church or someday lead a network or someday lead an organization like New Thing. 00:12:57.580 --> 00:12:59.100 It just happened to be true of my story. 00:12:59.240 --> 00:13:05.820 I think part of it is, like, on the apest, if you're familiar with Ephesians 4 and the five-fold gifts, 00:13:06.340 --> 00:13:09.120 I'm definitely apostolic and evangelistic. 00:13:09.360 --> 00:13:17.980 And so I had this, like, very outward mentality, developing leaders, thinking scale, thinking growth and momentum. 00:13:18.840 --> 00:13:23.060 Spiritual gifting-wise, leadership gift is one of my spiritual gifts. 00:13:23.380 --> 00:13:27.780 And then from an Enneagram standpoint, I'm an Enneagram 3. 00:13:27.780 --> 00:13:40.220 So, like, I had this, like, drive that got me engaged in a lot of different things and helped me to be motivated by the new and be motivated by the unknown and always looking for the next adventure. 00:13:40.540 --> 00:13:43.200 And so it just kind of kept putting me in these kinds of scenarios. 00:13:44.300 --> 00:13:55.380 And I think the small group ministry was a great place for me to learn that church and leadership development and apprenticeship and ministry, it's a people organization. 00:13:55.900 --> 00:14:05.400 And just realizing if I could come alongside people and tell their story and platform them, that over time, you know, their story became part of my testimony. 00:14:05.780 --> 00:14:08.380 And just a lot of cool things came out of that over the years. 00:14:08.500 --> 00:14:11.280 So that's how I got engaged with New Thing because it's a very similar organization. 00:14:11.280 --> 00:14:15.620 When you – I think you said your apprenticeship went 12 weeks. 00:14:15.720 --> 00:14:17.020 Was that what I remember you saying earlier? 00:14:17.360 --> 00:14:18.540 Or am I just making this up? 00:14:18.760 --> 00:14:19.000 Yeah. 00:14:19.140 --> 00:14:25.700 I mean, usually we'll say, like, apprenticeships can last here from six weeks to 18 months or even a couple years just depending upon their story, what their capacity is. 00:14:25.700 --> 00:14:28.680 There's a lot of things that contribute to how long somebody's apprenticeship lasts. 00:14:28.940 --> 00:14:37.980 So, like, what are the pros and cons where, okay, you were quicker because you had more skill sets or, you know, somebody doesn't see it so they need longer? 00:14:37.980 --> 00:14:40.600 Like, what are some examples of how that would vary? 00:14:40.960 --> 00:14:51.940 Yeah, I think if you're asking someone to be an apprentice and when you're being invited in like that or if someone's thinking through how long someone should apprentice, you're always kind of looking for what we call the must-haves. 00:14:52.900 --> 00:14:59.580 Teachability, relational intelligence, and spiritual velocity are, like, those kind of core components to look for. 00:15:00.580 --> 00:15:04.880 Teachability is humility plus they're able to apply what they're being told. 00:15:04.880 --> 00:15:06.400 And so they grow over time. 00:15:07.060 --> 00:15:14.940 Spiritual velocity is really that kind of forward momentum in their faith journey that they are, in fact, following a Jesus who is alive and resurrected. 00:15:15.540 --> 00:15:17.360 And so they have fruit from following Jesus. 00:15:18.240 --> 00:15:26.280 And then relational intelligence is that all-powerful self-awareness that all of us have to continue to grow in. 00:15:26.340 --> 00:15:31.080 And if we lack it, nobody wants to follow that person anyway, so don't even try to invite them into apprenticeship. 00:15:31.320 --> 00:15:32.660 Look for that relational intelligence. 00:15:34.520 --> 00:15:38.440 And we feel like if we can start there, but then a few other components play a part for sure. 00:15:38.600 --> 00:15:49.280 Like, you're looking for kind of the DNA piece of where that person has come from, what kind of church did they come from before they came to yours, if they came from someplace else. 00:15:49.860 --> 00:15:55.900 How long they've been a Christ follower can be good and bad, so you kind of have to weigh out the pros and cons. 00:15:56.660 --> 00:16:01.920 Maybe they've been a Christian for a long time but not a Christ follower, and there's issues that can come with that. 00:16:02.540 --> 00:16:08.140 Or maybe they're a newer Christ follower, but they're on fire, and they're ready for their next step. 00:16:08.360 --> 00:16:15.680 And that could be something, an individual that could be really great to work with because they're malleable and teachable, and they're really earnest to grow. 00:16:16.440 --> 00:16:19.260 But sometimes the immaturity of a Christ follower can slow you down, too. 00:16:19.320 --> 00:16:23.420 So you always get no way out the pros and cons of who you're working with and where they're at. 00:16:23.560 --> 00:16:26.720 But those timelines are such a variable depending upon the person. 00:16:26.840 --> 00:16:29.440 So that's where it can be a little more of an art than a science. 00:16:29.860 --> 00:16:29.960 Sure. 00:16:30.240 --> 00:16:31.860 And that's why the one-on-ones are so important. 00:16:31.860 --> 00:16:36.180 And that's why it's done through relationship because you're learning that as you go in conversation as you work with them. 00:16:36.500 --> 00:16:40.960 Speaking of relationship and one-on-ones, where do you find apprentices? 00:16:41.260 --> 00:16:44.400 Are these people that you know personally? 00:16:44.600 --> 00:16:49.580 Are they people that are somewhere in your ministry or just people that you get connected with on the street? 00:16:49.840 --> 00:16:52.180 What's the pull you pull from? 00:16:52.540 --> 00:16:54.520 Yeah, I mean, I can speak to an example. 00:16:54.520 --> 00:17:03.320 For the last year, I was a volunteer small group coach at our location here in Chicagoland in Downers Grove, which is a suburb of Chicago. 00:17:04.040 --> 00:17:09.260 And at that location, I've been volunteering to coach a couple small group leaders. 00:17:09.620 --> 00:17:14.320 And I began to meet with them probably once every couple months, one-on-one. 00:17:14.640 --> 00:17:18.480 And then I did a huddle Zoom call about once every other month as well. 00:17:18.900 --> 00:17:24.580 And as I was meeting with those leaders, I just thought, okay, who might I ask to become an apprentice coach? 00:17:24.940 --> 00:17:29.360 And so I began to kind of pray through that, think about that, imagine what that would look like. 00:17:29.420 --> 00:17:34.780 And then I, you know, talked to my coach, which is the small group director at this location. 00:17:34.780 --> 00:17:38.460 And I say, I'm thinking about asking this person to become my apprentice coach. 00:17:38.460 --> 00:17:39.800 Do you think that would be a good decision? 00:17:40.320 --> 00:17:41.520 What are your thoughts on that? 00:17:42.060 --> 00:17:44.700 And they were excited that I was thinking about this individual. 00:17:44.700 --> 00:17:49.060 And so I asked them to become my apprentice coach through a one-on-one conversation. 00:17:49.220 --> 00:17:56.880 I had an ICNU conversation with them and we met a couple times after that and they agreed to go on this apprenticeship. 00:17:57.320 --> 00:18:02.020 And so we met for the next several months and began to talk about what that would look like to be a small group coach 00:18:02.020 --> 00:18:06.340 and decided a timeline of when that could play out and when they could become a small group coach. 00:18:06.480 --> 00:18:08.500 And shortly after that, they eventually did. 00:18:08.560 --> 00:18:10.640 And now they're one of our small group coaches at that location. 00:18:11.280 --> 00:18:12.140 And they're awesome. 00:18:12.340 --> 00:18:16.560 They're just a super talented, much more pastoral than I am, very shepherd-like. 00:18:17.200 --> 00:18:21.760 And they just very much care for their leaders in a very tangible way. 00:18:21.840 --> 00:18:23.780 So they're an amazing small group coach. 00:18:23.960 --> 00:18:29.060 And so that's part of how that works is you look at your sphere of influence to answer your question. 00:18:29.160 --> 00:18:35.560 People within your reach, sometimes it's a little bit different than that. 00:18:35.620 --> 00:18:39.720 You might have somebody that's been recommended to you to go meet with them and talk to them about apprenticeship. 00:18:40.060 --> 00:18:45.140 And I would say that's an okay way to do it as well, especially if you trust the person that recommended them. 00:18:45.140 --> 00:18:51.240 When you're looking at an apprentice, is there anything mentally that you're like, this person cannot do this? 00:18:51.340 --> 00:18:53.980 Like you design them for a specific role? 00:18:54.220 --> 00:19:01.600 Or is there like an opportunity where you're trying to limit them into what their capacity is? 00:19:01.780 --> 00:19:10.600 Or are you bringing people in with the understanding that they could, you know, grow and multiply and expand into a number of different capacities? 00:19:10.600 --> 00:19:18.360 Like how much controlling are you necessarily trying to dictate this person's future with the org? 00:19:18.580 --> 00:19:19.380 Yeah, that's a good one. 00:19:19.460 --> 00:19:20.840 And sometimes tough to discern. 00:19:22.220 --> 00:19:27.400 I used to say, and I guess I still believe that time always tells over, you can tell over time, always. 00:19:27.780 --> 00:19:34.220 Like, I mean, give them a little bit at a time helps you kind of see what they can continue to carry as they move forward. 00:19:35.300 --> 00:19:41.760 And so I think those kind of simple practices kind of help you discern their capacity as you move forward in that relationship. 00:19:43.560 --> 00:19:45.100 That's the question you're asking, right, Jeff? 00:19:45.180 --> 00:19:48.240 Just like how do you kind of discern what their lid is? 00:19:49.580 --> 00:19:53.380 I do think it's just a little bit over time through conversation and usually it becomes apparent. 00:19:53.780 --> 00:19:59.380 Hey, you had mentioned earlier the I do, you watch, you know, some of this process we talk. 00:20:00.260 --> 00:20:06.520 Why don't you describe to us a little bit of what that process looks like while you're apprenticing someone? 00:20:06.720 --> 00:20:07.160 Yeah, it's funny. 00:20:07.240 --> 00:20:14.360 I was having this conversation with my wife the other day because our son, who is turning 19, going to college this fall, really proud of him. 00:20:14.360 --> 00:20:22.060 He's such a gifted kid, super smart, and he's going to be hitting the college scene here in the city of Chicago, going to DePaul University. 00:20:22.320 --> 00:20:24.140 So we couldn't be prouder of him. 00:20:24.540 --> 00:20:33.900 But one of the things we were talking about is how to equip him in this next season to do some of the administrative things that moms and dads are used to doing for their kids. 00:20:33.900 --> 00:20:41.580 You know, anything from like buying the right laundry detergent to checking your emails daily, putting things in the calendar. 00:20:41.840 --> 00:20:45.560 It's just the kind of stuff that like kind of slowly enters you into adulthood. 00:20:45.980 --> 00:20:48.380 Still, some of us are still trying to figure that out at our age. 00:20:48.660 --> 00:20:51.480 I know I'm 46 and some of those things I'm still trying to figure out. 00:20:51.520 --> 00:20:54.120 But the point is, her and I were having a conversation. 00:20:54.240 --> 00:20:55.820 I said, you know, it's a little bit like an apprenticeship. 00:20:56.340 --> 00:21:03.460 If you could somehow show him what you're talking about, make a list of those things and think about it in terms of the five steps. 00:21:03.460 --> 00:21:05.320 And of course, you know, she just rolls her eyes at me. 00:21:05.360 --> 00:21:06.240 She's like, oh, here we go. 00:21:06.800 --> 00:21:11.120 I'm going to listen to another one of my husband's conference talks that he's going to give to me. 00:21:12.180 --> 00:21:13.960 But she, you know, she's like, yeah, you're right. 00:21:14.020 --> 00:21:16.820 It's basically us showing him what we're talking about. 00:21:16.880 --> 00:21:20.440 And then over time, giving him the responsibility and giving him feedback on it. 00:21:20.440 --> 00:21:21.840 And that's really what the five steps are. 00:21:22.580 --> 00:21:23.420 The five steps. 00:21:23.500 --> 00:21:25.360 The first one is I do, you watch, we talk. 00:21:26.220 --> 00:21:29.100 The second one is I do, you help, we talk. 00:21:29.760 --> 00:21:31.960 The third one is you do, I help, we talk. 00:21:32.440 --> 00:21:35.040 The fourth one is you do, I watch, we talk. 00:21:35.600 --> 00:21:38.940 And then the last one is someone else, you do it and then someone else watches. 00:21:39.420 --> 00:21:40.360 And that's about reproduction. 00:21:40.960 --> 00:21:44.940 But the key in all of it is that you're having a conversation at every step. 00:21:45.460 --> 00:21:55.780 And I think that's where pastors and churches and programs unintentionally, we remove that part of the game because we focus so much on the event. 00:21:56.520 --> 00:22:12.160 We focus so much on Sundays or we focus so much on the program and pulling things off that we do not get the cups of coffee, the meals, having people in our home, where we're having these real conversations about how they're doing, how they're developing. 00:22:12.160 --> 00:22:17.600 And then giving them feedback on how they're running with stuff and laughing together and working hard together. 00:22:17.720 --> 00:22:26.600 And I think when we don't do that, we don't do the we talk part, it just starts to feel kind of like you're just an event-based organization that runs programs all the time. 00:22:27.380 --> 00:22:37.080 Which we know, that'll get us catalytic results sometimes, but it won't get us the transformational micro-movement kind of stuff that we all love to see happen in our lifetime. 00:22:37.380 --> 00:22:41.760 Yeah, I got to tell you, I like how you're calling that out and putting words on it. 00:22:41.760 --> 00:22:48.860 Like, I've seen the I do, you watch, I do, you help, you do, I help, you, like, that's not new. 00:22:50.100 --> 00:23:01.500 At least in my context, I don't know that I've ever heard the we talk portion on each line where it's, hey, let's dialogue, let's build a relationship, let's provide feedback for that. 00:23:01.500 --> 00:23:06.540 So I don't know if you stole that from somebody else, but well done, because I never— 00:23:06.540 --> 00:23:06.820 We did. 00:23:06.880 --> 00:23:07.320 Okay, good. 00:23:07.680 --> 00:23:11.140 So we'll just leave it there then and say what it is. 00:23:11.520 --> 00:23:12.620 Well, he's friends of ours. 00:23:12.680 --> 00:23:13.320 It's Carl George. 00:23:13.400 --> 00:23:15.960 He's a wonderful church growth movement guy. 00:23:16.060 --> 00:23:18.220 He wrote The Nine Keys to Effective Small Group Leadership. 00:23:18.860 --> 00:23:19.760 It's a wonderful book. 00:23:20.440 --> 00:23:26.180 And he's worked with churches over the years, probably consulted more churches than any church consultant in the world. 00:23:26.500 --> 00:23:26.740 Awesome. 00:23:26.900 --> 00:23:32.100 So, hey, we'll put a link to that book in the show notes until you can see it there. 00:23:32.200 --> 00:23:33.520 Carl George, what was the name of the book again? 00:23:33.800 --> 00:23:36.600 Nine Keys to Effective Small Group Ministry, I believe is the title. 00:23:36.760 --> 00:23:40.280 I might have missed a few articles or prepositions. 00:23:40.380 --> 00:23:40.660 Who knows? 00:23:40.840 --> 00:23:41.580 Something like that. 00:23:41.640 --> 00:23:41.780 Good. 00:23:42.120 --> 00:23:44.140 Amazon's great at finding stuff like that. 00:23:44.180 --> 00:23:46.760 So find the link in the show notes here later on. 00:23:47.020 --> 00:23:49.820 Hey, so even—it's interesting with the We Talk, right? 00:23:49.900 --> 00:24:01.140 That gives opportunity for the person to own the ministry, not necessarily to carbon copy what you're doing, but to put their unique spin on it. 00:24:01.180 --> 00:24:01.460 That's right. 00:24:01.460 --> 00:24:12.960 Is the goal on apprenticing to carbon copy, copy-paste, is the goal to let them put their unique spin on it and to own it as their own? 00:24:13.100 --> 00:24:17.760 Like, how much is too much or too little kind of in that balance? 00:24:17.920 --> 00:24:21.800 Yeah, I would say it probably depends upon your organization and what you're trying to replicate. 00:24:22.860 --> 00:24:28.580 You know, you've probably looked at different—maybe some of us are familiar with different multi-site models within the church. 00:24:29.300 --> 00:24:36.860 You could argue that on one end of the spectrum, you have the family of churches multi-site model, which is more like a network of churches. 00:24:37.240 --> 00:24:45.760 On the other end of the spectrum, you might have a franchise model that's more like if you go to any McDonald's, you get the same cheeseburger kind of experience. 00:24:47.120 --> 00:24:52.900 It depends upon what you're trying to scale and what you're trying to replicate, is maybe what I would say. 00:24:53.980 --> 00:25:00.460 But even the franchise church might tell you, yeah, we want our programs to be the same, but we don't want our people to be the same. 00:25:01.120 --> 00:25:07.840 And so I kind of get that there maybe is some room for imagination, even in that structure. 00:25:08.520 --> 00:25:14.200 But I would say that, you know, what you're trying to get to is the heart of a reproducing leader. 00:25:14.340 --> 00:25:22.480 You're trying to help them flesh out what their bias are, what their strengths are, how their story contributes to who they are and what they're doing. 00:25:22.880 --> 00:25:26.780 Well, at the same time, trying to run the play of whatever it is that you're asking them to do. 00:25:27.040 --> 00:25:37.900 And I don't know, I think it's super fun to try to figure out both based on their gifting, their story, their passions, but also what you're trying to do collectively together. 00:25:37.900 --> 00:25:51.740 In a typical ministry, and you're a guy that's reproduced at all levels by doing ministry and by doing work, how much intentionality do you put towards reproducing? 00:25:52.200 --> 00:25:58.680 Now, like, listen, we've all had the nine to five, you know, ministry jobs, which is anything but nine to five. 00:25:58.760 --> 00:26:05.820 We all know that Sunday morning's coming and there's, you know, it's just, it's the overwhelming nature of what that is. 00:26:06.000 --> 00:26:13.300 Like, what percent, but if so, if you, if you don't focus on the apprenticing, if you don't focus on reproducing, it's not going to happen. 00:26:13.360 --> 00:26:14.040 It gets lost. 00:26:14.440 --> 00:26:21.340 So how much time do you dedicate towards doing something like this or what percentage of time would you dedicate towards it? 00:26:21.600 --> 00:26:22.620 Man, that's a tough one. 00:26:23.240 --> 00:26:28.740 And I know it's a, it's a real tension for most leaders and most pastors is figuring this piece out. 00:26:30.740 --> 00:26:35.140 I mean, my whole calendar now is dedicated to one-on-ones and developing leaders. 00:26:35.280 --> 00:26:40.480 Part of that's because I can, in some ways I can afford the opportunity to do that in the role that I currently have. 00:26:40.660 --> 00:26:42.100 But I'm also a church planter. 00:26:42.180 --> 00:26:43.100 I've planted churches. 00:26:43.240 --> 00:26:44.700 I've been a part of five different startups. 00:26:44.820 --> 00:26:46.120 I've led one of those myself. 00:26:47.320 --> 00:27:01.120 And in those efforts, as much as I got tempted to focus on Sundays and focus on making sure we had a basis on Sundays and making sure the message was exactly right, making sure that we had the small groups to, you know, connect people in, making sure we had all these teams. 00:27:01.560 --> 00:27:11.260 I cared about all that stuff, but I knew that if I didn't have my one-on-ones on calendar, meeting with apprentices, meeting with existing leaders, that my team wouldn't do that. 00:27:11.960 --> 00:27:16.160 And if my team wasn't doing that, I also knew that my volunteers weren't going to do that. 00:27:16.160 --> 00:27:21.560 And so I felt like I had to show and model what it looked like to have a one-on-one. 00:27:21.680 --> 00:27:22.740 So I would do that with my team. 00:27:23.260 --> 00:27:26.620 And then I would do that with a small group apprentice that I had in my small group. 00:27:26.980 --> 00:27:30.940 And I would make sure I multiplied my small group every six to 12 months. 00:27:30.940 --> 00:27:34.540 And then I made sure that I was developing leaders of leaders that was apprenticing. 00:27:35.060 --> 00:27:41.220 And I also made sure I had one-on-ones with apprentice church planters or leadership residences, sometimes what we call them here at New Thing. 00:27:41.960 --> 00:27:48.480 And I made sure my calendar was kind of chock full, those types of meetings, so I could model for my team what that looks like. 00:27:48.480 --> 00:27:57.060 And if it meant, in the words of Neil Colt, lowering the bar on how we do church and raising the bar on discipleship, so be it. 00:27:57.280 --> 00:28:04.540 It's just what it was going to be because I felt like my life had been changed so much because somebody valued that. 00:28:05.320 --> 00:28:17.860 I've seen thousands of lives changed because of how community and New Thing has valued that, that I wanted to keep replicating that in the generations of leaders that I worked with because of the responsibilities that have been given to me. 00:28:18.160 --> 00:28:20.300 So, but it's not easy, man. 00:28:20.320 --> 00:28:30.740 It's like so tempting just to pull yourself back into the program and the plans of what we do with church and ministry and stay away from the people. 00:28:32.460 --> 00:28:34.760 Because it's hard, it's hard to stay focused on those things. 00:28:34.940 --> 00:28:43.000 But the, yeah, anyway, I was going to say the replicative effect is pretty exciting stuff. 00:28:43.360 --> 00:28:45.400 And I'd rather be on that side of it. 00:28:45.720 --> 00:28:45.940 Definitely. 00:28:46.240 --> 00:28:52.160 Oh, and this even gets to the place of, you know, a lot of churches, I'll be honest, like, 00:28:52.300 --> 00:28:58.140 so I've worked on churches that didn't care about the reproducing part of this. 00:28:58.340 --> 00:29:01.680 Their focus was more on the quality of the product. 00:29:01.880 --> 00:29:05.840 And so there was not an onus on me to reproduce in my role. 00:29:05.940 --> 00:29:08.120 There was an onus on me to do my job. 00:29:08.900 --> 00:29:13.940 And, and even though I, I've always felt more of a reproducing. 00:29:13.940 --> 00:29:24.000 And so how do you, do you, do you have churches that, that maybe, or have you talked to people that were in that situation where maybe there was a, there was a desire to reproduce? 00:29:24.000 --> 00:29:31.400 There was a desire to, to multiply and to pass knowledge and understanding onto others, to disciple others. 00:29:31.400 --> 00:29:34.900 But maybe the church didn't see that as a, as a value. 00:29:35.060 --> 00:29:36.200 How, how do you walk in that tension? 00:29:36.560 --> 00:29:36.720 Yeah. 00:29:36.720 --> 00:29:40.400 I mean, we talk about sometimes there's a tension between reproducing and excellence. 00:29:41.280 --> 00:29:48.300 Um, and, and certainly the church in the West has spent a lot of time trying to make what they do excellent. 00:29:48.800 --> 00:29:58.080 And so that level of excellence creates a certain level of professionalism that needs to be at the table to create whatever that quote unquote excellence is. 00:29:58.880 --> 00:30:04.700 Um, uh, sometimes those churches that are so good at that get to become very large churches. 00:30:05.100 --> 00:30:08.440 Um, and, um, I've heard it described this way. 00:30:08.520 --> 00:30:15.000 Uh, if you look at a large church, like a rhino, it's hard to reproduce rhinos, but you can reproduce rabbits. 00:30:15.400 --> 00:30:15.840 Yeah. 00:30:15.840 --> 00:30:22.480 And so those might be smaller churches that have not this high bar of excellence because they're very relational, simple. 00:30:23.340 --> 00:30:27.960 Um, that being said, this is why we need ravens, which are our networks. 00:30:28.960 --> 00:30:34.840 So if you can get rabbits and rhinos working together, um, and you can start to see collaboration. 00:30:34.840 --> 00:30:45.200 Among these churches, um, the smaller churches, uh, will be inspired by how much impact a large church can have because of the resources they sometimes have. 00:30:45.740 --> 00:30:48.280 Um, and the people that they have and the, and all that. 00:30:48.840 --> 00:30:56.840 And then the, the large churches can be inspired by the smaller churches because they see how nimble they are and they see how focused they are on people and multiplication. 00:30:56.840 --> 00:31:03.660 And they can really can inspire one another when, when they're in a network together, uh, which we talk a lot about what, from a new thing perspective. 00:31:03.660 --> 00:31:06.280 So I do believe they can benefit from one another. 00:31:06.280 --> 00:31:09.220 I do think that there's a tension there between excellence and reproducing. 00:31:10.000 --> 00:31:14.820 Um, but I also think that you can, it's, it's, it's meant to be attention and that's okay. 00:31:15.140 --> 00:31:18.280 Um, because it's okay to have a professional Sunday gathering. 00:31:18.280 --> 00:31:22.480 It's okay to have a professional kids program and students program and camps. 00:31:22.480 --> 00:31:24.240 And those things are okay. 00:31:24.480 --> 00:31:26.440 Um, and not everybody wants to participate in that stuff. 00:31:26.520 --> 00:31:27.180 That's okay too. 00:31:27.820 --> 00:31:31.880 We need lots of different kinds of churches that are going to reach people and raise up leaders. 00:31:32.260 --> 00:31:41.720 Um, and, but I, I think when they're in community with one another, they can, they can challenge one another, inspire each other to think differently and think outside the box. 00:31:42.100 --> 00:31:42.340 Love it. 00:31:42.400 --> 00:31:46.520 The, the, the rhinos, the rabbits and the ravens. 00:31:46.760 --> 00:31:53.760 Actually, I had a, I had a conversation just recently with, uh, with a deaf ministry and for them it was, it was elephants and rabbits. 00:31:54.160 --> 00:31:57.520 Uh, and they, but not, but I like the, the rhinos. 00:31:57.520 --> 00:31:59.940 It kind of, um, alliterates. 00:32:00.000 --> 00:32:00.740 Is it alliterates? 00:32:01.000 --> 00:32:01.560 Well, I've. 00:32:01.620 --> 00:32:02.500 More alliterations. 00:32:02.820 --> 00:32:03.680 More alliterations. 00:32:04.320 --> 00:32:04.760 Yeah. 00:32:04.760 --> 00:32:05.040 Sorry. 00:32:05.140 --> 00:32:09.220 I, my, my, my, my, my seminary degree in alliterations is, is, uh, is lacking. 00:32:09.640 --> 00:32:10.820 Uh, very good. 00:32:10.920 --> 00:32:13.200 Hey, so let, let me, let me ask this. 00:32:13.220 --> 00:32:17.860 You know, we, we primarily here, we do a lot of digital and, and metaverse ministry. 00:32:17.860 --> 00:32:20.360 And so digital churches, uh, it was interesting. 00:32:20.360 --> 00:32:31.520 I made the statement to you that I actually don't know of a, uh, of a digital church that has a structured apprentice program, like, like where there's intentional focus on. 00:32:31.620 --> 00:32:39.160 On apprenticing many, I mean, many reasons why maybe, uh, the, the first is they're kind of throwing and going at this point. 00:32:39.160 --> 00:32:44.440 I don't know that they themselves have a system yet where, where they can, can teach and reproduce on this. 00:32:44.440 --> 00:33:01.560 Be, uh, to be honest, like there's a lot of, um, uh, emotional stress on, on some of these digital and metaverse pastors and planters because there's so much, um, you know, lack of approval in some of these areas. 00:33:01.560 --> 00:33:12.380 And, and I know I've, I've had several conversations there with, with people that have been hesitant to reproduce, to bring in because they don't want to expose some of the, I don't want to use the word hate. 00:33:12.380 --> 00:33:16.940 Cause I think hate's too strong, but just the lack of approval in, in some of these areas in there. 00:33:17.040 --> 00:33:19.080 I mean, I would love some insight from you. 00:33:19.140 --> 00:33:22.300 Now you're not a, I want to, I want to, I want to, to label this. 00:33:22.300 --> 00:33:25.740 You're not a, uh, I would not consider you a digital or a metaverse. 00:33:26.180 --> 00:33:28.840 I don't want to say friendly, but you're not knowledgeable in this area. 00:33:28.840 --> 00:33:32.820 Like we've had, we've had conversations, but you're new in the space, so to speak. 00:33:32.820 --> 00:33:34.080 I do consider you a supporter. 00:33:34.260 --> 00:33:36.600 If you're not a supporter, you're great at faking it. 00:33:36.660 --> 00:33:38.600 Um, maybe that's another conversation. 00:33:39.300 --> 00:33:39.620 No faking. 00:33:40.040 --> 00:33:40.760 No, no faking. 00:33:40.860 --> 00:33:41.580 So you're a supporter. 00:33:41.860 --> 00:33:42.880 The new things to support it, man. 00:33:42.880 --> 00:33:43.360 I love this. 00:33:43.360 --> 00:33:49.920 Uh, so here's my, my, my question is really, man, I would, would love for you to, to talk in the challenge, maybe a little bit here. 00:33:50.180 --> 00:33:55.700 Some of these planters, um, that are operating in digital and metaverse, uh, 00:33:56.000 --> 00:33:57.080 paving new grounds. 00:33:57.460 --> 00:33:59.380 Uh, it's, you know, it's, it's interesting. 00:33:59.460 --> 00:34:04.920 Somebody told me, uh, Chesley told me recently, he said, um, uh, pioneers get killed. 00:34:05.400 --> 00:34:11.100 Settlers get rich, uh, and, and in many ways we're kind of pioneering in this season, but, but talk to these people here. 00:34:11.500 --> 00:34:18.220 Um, why should we be focusing intentionally on, on apprenticing, on reproducing at this point? 00:34:18.400 --> 00:34:19.700 Yeah, great question. 00:34:19.960 --> 00:34:24.940 Um, so when I, I mean, for some reason, maybe this will apply, I, cause I thought of this when you were asking the question. 00:34:25.820 --> 00:34:33.520 When I planted a church in the city of Chicago on the North side of the city, uh, the people that we were predominantly reaching were young professionals. 00:34:33.520 --> 00:34:41.360 Um, so people who are like between 25 and 30, our average age for our church plant was probably 28. 00:34:41.700 --> 00:34:48.860 And so the leaders that I was working with, the upperly mobile affluent, um, traveling on a flight, usually consulting. 00:34:48.860 --> 00:34:55.460 They worked for large companies like Deloitte and Huron, and they were flying Monday through Thursday, uh, pretty much every week. 00:34:55.500 --> 00:35:00.780 Um, and so I had to think, um, and so I had to think this was probably six years ago, maybe seven years ago. 00:35:00.780 --> 00:35:05.580 I had to think creatively about how to apprentice these individuals to lead small groups. 00:35:05.580 --> 00:35:10.380 And how was I going to launch new small groups that were going to connect people that were showing up at the church. 00:35:10.880 --> 00:35:14.460 And so maybe other leaders were already doing this at the time, but this was kind of new for me. 00:35:14.460 --> 00:35:25.420 I decided to start using zoom to apprentice leaders and began to meet with them weekly and provide small group training, um, and their apprenticeship through a one-on-one over zoom. 00:35:25.420 --> 00:35:29.260 And then collectively as a turbo small group to equip these leaders. 00:35:30.020 --> 00:35:35.760 Um, there were times where I had 16 people on a zoom call and I'm teaching them how to lead a small group and what that looks like. 00:35:35.760 --> 00:35:46.620 And, um, talking to them about their spiritual formation, talking about how they're doing their, in their walk with Jesus and, um, just really became this very collaborative zooming context before the pandemic. 00:35:46.880 --> 00:35:48.420 Um, and it was really fruitful. 00:35:48.420 --> 00:35:50.540 We were able to launch lots of small groups doing that. 00:35:51.160 --> 00:36:00.980 And, um, I guess, so I guess what I would say to leaders that are now planting digitally and being digital missionaries and, uh, forming, uh, churches in the metaverse. 00:36:00.980 --> 00:36:08.220 I would say in the same way you would do an apprenticeship, uh, in a, uh, in person context, I would do the same thing virtually. 00:36:08.220 --> 00:36:16.660 I would be intentional about selecting, um, uh, capable men and women who could follow you as you follow Jesus and asking them to apprentice. 00:36:16.660 --> 00:36:25.860 And, and over time, you know, as you go through the five steps, as you check in on their RPMs, that they would eventually become leaders of a small group or leaders of a team. 00:36:26.220 --> 00:36:30.420 Uh, maybe you're equipping them to become digital missionaries and that's where you're starting them first. 00:36:30.420 --> 00:36:38.920 Um, as you look to the digital, uh, stratosphere, but, um, I think there could be some really exciting things that happen virtually in terms of apprenticeship. 00:36:39.660 --> 00:36:48.000 With, uh, with the RPMs and the checking in, how, um, like, is there a time where that matures? 00:36:48.000 --> 00:36:56.880 Is that a time where you, where you, you stop and, and, and focus on others or like, are you checking in with dozens of people regularly? 00:36:56.880 --> 00:37:01.500 Like what's, what's the lifespan of, of someone that you're apprenticing? 00:37:01.500 --> 00:37:26.500 Um, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and we don't always think about asking questions around their relational world, which is what the R stands for in RPMs. 00:37:26.500 --> 00:37:37.720 We don't think about asking questions around their physical, uh, whether it's their schedule or whether it's their physical health or whether it's their, um, uh, pace of life, all those kinds of things. 00:37:37.840 --> 00:37:41.620 We don't tend to ask questions around mental, how are they doing with their mental health? 00:37:41.720 --> 00:37:45.320 How are they doing with, um, studying the world and culture around them? 00:37:45.860 --> 00:37:47.780 Um, what are they filtering from their mind? 00:37:48.280 --> 00:37:53.020 We don't usually ask those types of questions, but discipleship is a whole, whole life thing. 00:37:53.060 --> 00:37:55.340 It's not just, did you go to church on Sunday? 00:37:55.360 --> 00:37:56.140 Did you read your Bible? 00:37:56.240 --> 00:37:56.780 Are you praying? 00:37:57.180 --> 00:37:58.140 And did you give money? 00:37:58.760 --> 00:38:02.960 Uh, which is 10, which tends to be where we focus our energy when we talk about discipleship. 00:38:03.520 --> 00:38:07.340 Um, so RPMs is meant to be a holistic approach to developing someone. 00:38:08.020 --> 00:38:12.120 And there's a whole list of questions you could ask when it comes to those four different areas. 00:38:12.120 --> 00:38:26.880 Um, and what we're trying to do is, is to get us as, as leaders, um, how do we think about, um, growing this person as a human being, as a follower of Jesus and how does Jesus impact their entire life? 00:38:27.140 --> 00:38:29.020 Um, and so that's what the RPMs are meant for. 00:38:29.600 --> 00:38:35.280 And if you know anything about your own RPMs, you know that you stink in one of those four areas at any given moment. 00:38:35.480 --> 00:38:45.180 And so like, we're trying to, you know, be an encouragement to that person that might be falling short and also provide some relational accountability, um, that would come through trust. 00:38:45.180 --> 00:38:51.160 And over time, as that person kind of lets you in to talk about that part of their world, whatever they might be struggling with. 00:38:51.580 --> 00:39:05.200 So then, then it's important for accountability standpoint, almost to always be under someone apprenticing, like someone that's, that's talking to you at that, that are, that the RPMs level. 00:39:05.200 --> 00:39:07.740 Yeah, I mean, certainly we could all benefit from that, right? 00:39:07.780 --> 00:39:17.740 Especially given the pandemic, um, and given our temptation to isolate, um, during the pandemic and then to try to cope and deal with whatever it is that we're going through by ourselves. 00:39:17.920 --> 00:39:20.800 Um, and then we find ourselves in some pretty dark places. 00:39:20.800 --> 00:39:30.000 So, um, we would all would benefit from being an ongoing one-on-one coaching apprenticeship throughout our spiritual lives, throughout our journeys. 00:39:31.020 --> 00:39:31.460 Absolutely. 00:39:31.800 --> 00:39:39.720 By the way, we're going to be doing part two of this conversation on, on a print that's saying, we're going to be doing it as a, as a round table through digital church network. 00:39:39.720 --> 00:39:44.540 And we're going to be doing it Tuesday night, August 23rd, 7 p.m. Eastern. 00:39:44.540 --> 00:39:51.840 Now that's 6 p.m. Central where, uh, Eric is and, and new thing is, is very driven towards central standard time. 00:39:51.920 --> 00:39:56.300 There is no time that exists unless it's central standard time. 00:39:56.460 --> 00:39:59.560 So 7 p.m. for maybe the rest of us, but definitely six. 00:39:59.660 --> 00:40:02.060 And for those of you in California, I'm, I'm sorry entirely. 00:40:02.480 --> 00:40:13.920 Uh, but we're going to dig into maybe some of the more practical insights centered around, uh, apprenticing and, and, and how we as digital and metaverse churches can apprentice, can multiply. 00:40:14.160 --> 00:40:19.580 What it looks like, uh, to multiply our churches utilizing apprenticing. 00:40:19.580 --> 00:40:29.660 So come to that round table Tuesday night, August 23rd, 2022, obviously, uh, for, for part two of that conversation, Eric and I will be there for more information. 00:40:29.660 --> 00:40:35.700 Check out the church.digital slash apprentice, A-P-P-R-E-N-T-I-C-E. 00:40:35.880 --> 00:40:51.940 Check out the link in show notes, but, you know, and Eric, one thing that I would love to, uh, to just throw at you, uh, as part of this conversation overall is, is just the heart of, of new thing to see this collaboration and to see this multiplication happen within churches. 00:40:51.940 --> 00:41:01.660 Like it was, as I was, as I was, was pivoting away and over the past year and trying to find the organizations, uh, to partner with, like, it did not take a lot. 00:41:01.760 --> 00:41:09.100 It was not a long, uh, list of churches anywhere of organizations initially to look at, but we didn't have to put a lot of thought in the new thing. 00:41:09.100 --> 00:41:13.980 Like it was such an obvious choice, uh, the heart for, for collaboration. 00:41:13.980 --> 00:41:26.000 And so maybe you want to talk a little bit about, about new thing and maybe tell the story of how you got connected and, and, and what it looks like now, uh, doing, doing ministry and collaborating and helping churches the way that you do. 00:41:26.000 --> 00:41:26.440 Yeah. 00:41:26.720 --> 00:41:37.920 Uh, well, I mean, I got involved with new thing because I really love the idea of multiplying leaders, um, of, of increasing our impact, um, as we develop leaders and develop churches. 00:41:37.920 --> 00:41:44.720 And, uh, some of my first roles was developing our, our leadership residency program for new thing, North America. 00:41:44.980 --> 00:41:46.780 This is just about 10 years ago. 00:41:46.780 --> 00:41:51.380 And the residency program really was a multiplication at the macro. 00:41:51.380 --> 00:41:55.260 It's like, if you could have apprentice church planters, what would that look like? 00:41:55.260 --> 00:41:59.840 How would you recruit these church planters, whether they're free agent or farm system? 00:42:00.160 --> 00:42:01.560 How would you send them out? 00:42:01.700 --> 00:42:03.880 What would that look like to partner with those church plants? 00:42:04.600 --> 00:42:07.700 Um, and then we began to kind of push these church plants together in networks. 00:42:07.920 --> 00:42:14.600 And a network is a small group of pastors who are leading churches that are collaborating together to plant churches together. 00:42:14.720 --> 00:42:17.700 And a network might have four to six churches in it that are working together. 00:42:18.220 --> 00:42:22.380 And as they collaborate, um, they might be able to do more together than they could by themselves. 00:42:22.380 --> 00:42:35.900 And it was really just us trying to live out John 17, uh, where Jesus has that prayer for us as believers that we'd be seen as one and that we'd really begin to champion one another and support, uh, God's dream for the world. 00:42:35.900 --> 00:42:42.700 And think about, you know, how we could reach a whole city or a country or a region or even the whole world if we could in the name of Jesus. 00:42:42.700 --> 00:42:51.000 And so, um, that's really what continued to push new thing is this kind of John 17 mentality of collaboration to use the word you were using earlier. 00:42:51.000 --> 00:42:59.360 And, um, and really just imagine, um, you know, what if we could spark a movement and be a catalyst for movements of reproducing churches all around the world. 00:42:59.700 --> 00:43:12.740 Um, and a lot of that happens through leaders like you, Jeff, like it's, it's guys and gals who are hearing from God regularly and, uh, they're dreaming big and they're thinking about, you know, what if there were other people who thought like me who are dreaming about these things? 00:43:12.740 --> 00:43:14.780 And what if we could work together on something? 00:43:14.820 --> 00:43:15.620 Wouldn't that be amazing? 00:43:15.620 --> 00:43:27.680 What if I had this like community of friends on mission that we're meeting regularly, we're praying together regularly, we're dreaming big together regularly, and we're holding each other accountable to some big ideas that we want to do together. 00:43:28.300 --> 00:43:32.060 Um, and we call those potentially apostolic movement makers. 00:43:32.340 --> 00:43:43.380 Um, these are leaders all around the world, uh, which has gotten us involved in just about 50 countries around the world now and, um, and gotten us to be engaged with what you're doing, Jeff, and your team. 00:43:43.380 --> 00:43:49.560 Um, and just really exciting stuff as we, uh, have been able to serve a lot of leaders in a lot of different places over the years. 00:43:49.920 --> 00:43:50.020 Yeah. 00:43:50.140 --> 00:43:53.880 I, friends on mission is now like my favorite words. 00:43:54.380 --> 00:43:59.420 Um, I, you know, that, that was something I'd, I'd never really heard of pre new thing. 00:43:59.420 --> 00:44:12.500 And then, but the, the idea of, Hey, we don't have to theologically agree on every, you know, jot and tittle, uh, as, as much as, Hey, let's, let's agree that people need Jesus. 00:44:12.500 --> 00:44:14.780 Let's agree that, that we can help others. 00:44:14.780 --> 00:44:21.880 Let's agree, uh, that, that we can be on, on mission together and that collaborating is, is better for, for the kingdom. 00:44:21.880 --> 00:44:25.260 And, and I, I just, I love that challenge. 00:44:25.260 --> 00:44:39.100 And, and it's so interesting to me, like when I, when I actually talk with other churches about that, how, um, how shocking, how like they've, they've never, they've never thought of that. 00:44:39.100 --> 00:44:53.060 Like the, the, the, the, the idea of denominationalism is so intertwined in so many of like, just literally, like I was at a conference was talking about some of the stuff that, that we were doing and, um, through digital church network, uh, just last week. 00:44:53.380 --> 00:44:56.500 And somebody at the conference was like, well, you, then you're like a denomination. 00:44:56.500 --> 00:45:02.700 I was like, no, because like, I don't speak theologically into anything, nor do I, you know, I don't, I don't want to get into that. 00:45:02.760 --> 00:45:06.140 I want to work with everybody regardless of, of, of what they believe. 00:45:06.200 --> 00:45:12.340 Yeah, we've got some lines somewhere, but the lines are, are, are, are fewer than, than what a denominational would. 00:45:12.340 --> 00:45:24.600 And, and this person like could not quantify in their, in their minds, the idea of, of doing an organization that wasn't speaking theologically into something. 00:45:24.600 --> 00:45:32.740 And it's, I think for the kingdom, um, listen, we can all stand before God one day and ask, uh, and, and I'm, I'm looking forward to the conversation. 00:45:32.740 --> 00:45:39.320 Hey God, this whole digital and metaverse church, what was this a, a, a crock of like garbage or is this legit? 00:45:39.320 --> 00:45:42.440 Like on a scale of one to 10, how upset are you at me right now? 00:45:42.440 --> 00:45:48.780 Like, and I do, I do fully anticipate having that conversation, you know, it's, it's because so many people are against it. 00:45:48.780 --> 00:45:51.980 But, but the heart of this is that we're seeing God move through it. 00:45:52.100 --> 00:46:02.080 And that's where I think really friends on mission kicks in because we're seeing people, we're seeing God move as a result of, of the collaboration. 00:46:02.720 --> 00:46:06.240 We're seeing people that, that may not always agree on these things. 00:46:06.240 --> 00:46:15.800 We're seeing networks come together and, and, and planting churches and encouraging one another and praying for one another, even though theologically, there are things that don't line up. 00:46:15.800 --> 00:46:21.620 And, and, and it's, it's a beautiful thing to see that, that relationship, that friendship come into play. 00:46:21.620 --> 00:46:25.420 So, man, I just want to thank you for doing, uh, the work that you've been doing, man. 00:46:25.640 --> 00:46:26.040 Well, thanks. 00:46:26.200 --> 00:46:27.780 It's an honor and it's exciting. 00:46:28.140 --> 00:46:32.320 And, uh, you know, our core passage that we believe God's doing a new thing. 00:46:32.320 --> 00:46:36.880 And so we always want to pay attention, um, like Isaiah did just to see what God's doing. 00:46:36.980 --> 00:46:38.400 That's a surprise. 00:46:38.400 --> 00:46:40.980 That's an adventure that's outside of what we currently see. 00:46:41.120 --> 00:46:46.040 And that's how we've gotten involved with DCN and very excited about what we're doing together. 00:46:46.120 --> 00:46:46.620 It's super fun. 00:46:47.620 --> 00:46:57.020 Hey, so as, as we're, we're landing the plane, by the way, once again, we're going to be doing, uh, part two of this conversation on apprenticing up, a practical approach to apprenticing. 00:46:57.020 --> 00:47:07.500 Getting much more into the weeds and next steps and would love for planters and, and churches and, and digital and metaverse and even physical churches that are wrestling with this stuff. 00:47:07.660 --> 00:47:09.220 Come jump in this round table. 00:47:09.360 --> 00:47:18.840 It's going to be Tuesday, August 23rd at, um, 7 PM Eastern, six central and four Pacific and roll it out. 00:47:18.960 --> 00:47:22.060 If you're, if you're overseas, come in, you'll have to figure out your own time zones. 00:47:22.060 --> 00:47:26.880 I can't keep them all straight, but we're going to have this conversation, uh, here, uh, 00:47:26.880 --> 00:47:27.620 next week. 00:47:27.820 --> 00:47:30.300 And so we'd love to have y'all all join that. 00:47:30.420 --> 00:47:33.820 And so Eric, looking forward to digging into that piece with you. 00:47:34.420 --> 00:47:37.460 But as, as we're landing the plane here, man, any closing thoughts? 00:47:37.720 --> 00:47:51.520 Uh, I would just say do not underestimate the authority and power that God's given you as a Christ follower and how powerful the ICNU conversation can be with those within your sphere of influence. 00:47:51.960 --> 00:48:00.320 You just never know what knucklehead you're going to recruit next to be an apprentice that might someday do some cool things for the kingdom. 00:48:00.580 --> 00:48:06.800 So be generous, go scatter some seeds, go have some conversations, pray over some people and see where God might take it. 00:48:07.220 --> 00:48:07.480 Awesome. 00:48:07.820 --> 00:48:13.760 Hey, so not a technical conversation today, but, but love the heart behind this idea of multiplication. 00:48:14.260 --> 00:48:22.700 And so for, for those of you out there that are listening, find some people, find some apprentices, um, maybe even invite them into this round table and work through it together. 00:48:22.700 --> 00:48:30.080 But start to figure out how we can multiply our, our digital ministry, our digital churches, our metaverse churches, et cetera. 00:48:30.300 --> 00:48:34.420 So, uh, Eric, thank you for jumping into the conversation, uh, but we're going to land the plane. 00:48:34.580 --> 00:48:38.160 For Eric, this is Jeff, uh, with the Church Digital and Digital Church Network. 00:48:38.500 --> 00:48:40.140 Thanks for jumping on the podcast here. 00:48:40.220 --> 00:48:44.340 We'll see you next week and we'll see you at part two on the 23rd. 00:48:44.520 --> 00:48:49.560 Uh, once again, thechurch.digital slash apprentice for more information on that. 00:48:49.780 --> 00:48:50.340 Talk to you later. 00:48:50.400 --> 00:48:50.920 Y'all have a good day.