WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:04.580 Number two is prayer. And I'm not hyper-spiritualizing this, I'm going to get to this, but 00:00:04.580 --> 00:00:09.960 you really need to submit yourself to the Lordship of Christ. He doesn't give us 00:00:09.960 --> 00:00:15.760 missional imagination so that we can be great. He provides the spirit and the power of missional 00:00:15.760 --> 00:00:20.880 imagination so that we can make Him and His mission great. And so you just got to approach 00:00:20.880 --> 00:00:25.980 it in that posture. Welcome to the Church Digital Podcast. Through this podcast, we'll talk about 00:00:25.980 --> 00:00:31.500 the technological innovations within the church. But more than tech for tech itself, we'll address 00:00:31.500 --> 00:00:37.880 deeper questions. Is disciple making possible digitally? How should we approach the digital 00:00:37.880 --> 00:00:43.960 mission field? Can a biblically grounded church operate in digital space? Oh, and where does the 00:00:43.960 --> 00:00:49.480 metaverse fit into all this? Whether you're a big or small church, an established church, or a startup 00:00:49.480 --> 00:00:55.680 church plant, the Church Digital's goal is to help churches like yours learn to be a multiplying church. 00:00:55.980 --> 00:01:02.340 digitally and physically. Our heart? That churches like yours will discover a newfound focus on 00:01:02.340 --> 00:01:08.700 disciple making that will revolutionize your church. And now, here's your host, Jeff Reed. 00:01:09.320 --> 00:01:16.180 All right, hey, welcome to the Church Digital Podcast. This is Jeff, once again, co-founder of 00:01:16.180 --> 00:01:21.660 Digital Church Network, founder of the Church Digital, and purveyor of, oh, so much fun in digital 00:01:21.660 --> 00:01:28.040 and metaverse space. And I am looking forward to this conversation. I love this topic. And I love 00:01:28.040 --> 00:01:34.620 this organization and the people that I get to work with within it. And so many of you know that through 00:01:34.620 --> 00:01:41.420 Digital Church Network, we have a very strong partnership with an organization called New Thing. 00:01:41.500 --> 00:01:47.500 And New Thing is really the foundation behind Digital Church Network, partially with our movement 00:01:47.500 --> 00:01:52.980 system that we've talked a lot in here about growing disciples, maturing them into leaders that are 00:01:52.980 --> 00:01:59.100 planting churches, that are multiplying churches into networks, and then multiplying networks, even into 00:01:59.100 --> 00:02:05.600 starting movements. And so this is a lot of the genius behind New Thing, and as well as the heart behind 00:02:05.600 --> 00:02:12.620 Digital Church Network, starting to champion in this new disciple making pathway, this new movement 00:02:12.620 --> 00:02:17.160 starting pathway in digital and metaverse space. And there's so much other wisdom and guidance that 00:02:17.160 --> 00:02:23.360 honestly, I'm getting right now from New Thing. And so it's an honor and a privilege right now to bring in the 00:02:23.360 --> 00:02:30.920 global director of New Thing into the conversation, Patrick. So Patrick O'Connell, thank you for jumping on the 00:02:30.920 --> 00:02:31.940 podcast here with us. 00:02:32.140 --> 00:02:37.040 So glad to be here, Jeff. Love you, brother. Love what you're up to and want to serve you well. Thanks for the invite. 00:02:37.380 --> 00:02:43.920 Oh, awesome. Yeah, really looking forward to this conversation. And it was interesting when we were sitting 00:02:43.920 --> 00:02:49.600 down with Patrick, you know, months ago talking about different ideas for podcasts and roundtables and 00:02:49.600 --> 00:02:57.160 trainings. He said these two words, and I was like, oh my gosh, I need to know more about that. Because like, I've 00:02:57.160 --> 00:03:03.800 never put these two words together. But even just hearing them in the same sentence resonated with me at a 00:03:03.800 --> 00:03:09.500 very strong level. And so I'm looking forward to this to this conversation here, centered on the two 00:03:09.500 --> 00:03:14.840 words. Now, now this is awkward. Like I'm not I've not said the two words yet. Yes. Yet again, I'm still 00:03:14.840 --> 00:03:23.080 drawing it out. Drum roll, please. I wish my little effects box was working down here, but I don't have a 00:03:23.080 --> 00:03:29.940 word. All right, look, we're talking about missional imagination and the idea of well, shoot, Patrick, 00:03:29.940 --> 00:03:35.120 why don't you set up missional imagination? What do you mean by that? Yeah, I think in the 00:03:35.120 --> 00:03:41.580 movemental world, if we're really trying to lean into the church as movement, what missional 00:03:41.580 --> 00:03:49.160 imagination helps leaders do is very simply dream big, dream bigger than they could ever imagine. 00:03:50.000 --> 00:03:56.840 It really is this embrace of Ephesians 320, right? That God can do immeasurably more. And what we've 00:03:56.840 --> 00:04:05.560 found certainly post COVID, but even pre COVID, we found that leaders tended to only imagine what they 00:04:05.560 --> 00:04:10.160 could do and what they could maybe do in the next two or three years, whether that was starting a 00:04:10.160 --> 00:04:14.480 location, launching a new service, raising up a leadership resident, all good things, by the way. 00:04:15.120 --> 00:04:23.400 But what we continually found was that when we help unlock that missional imagination, and the cool thing 00:04:23.400 --> 00:04:29.880 is, is this works cross-culturally, right? This works in Thailand, and it works in Texas, because it's all 00:04:29.880 --> 00:04:35.180 about what the Holy Spirit's doing in and through us. But when we can help leaders unlock their missional 00:04:35.180 --> 00:04:40.860 imagination, this is not our missional imagination, it's your missional imagination, then beautiful things 00:04:40.860 --> 00:04:43.880 start to happen. So man, at the heart of it, that's what it is for me. 00:04:44.420 --> 00:04:53.160 Interesting. Yeah, so we've had other conversations about missional imagination. I am sticking to this. You were the 00:04:53.160 --> 00:04:58.400 first person that I heard use the phrase missional imagination, although we have had other podcasts 00:04:58.400 --> 00:05:06.140 talking about missional imagination as well. And so we'll put some of those and link to them in the show notes, where I 00:05:06.140 --> 00:05:15.620 think we've seen others kind of adopt this idea and run with it about doing things, you know, imaginative and even leaning 00:05:15.620 --> 00:05:22.520 into, you know, it's interesting when we talk about that Philippians verse, you know, just to be transparent, even in my own 00:05:22.520 --> 00:05:30.720 life. I, I have literally said that churches are where dreams go to die. Like that was a phrase that I used in my 00:05:30.720 --> 00:05:37.900 church staffing career, because there were lots of dreams that I had. And I'm not using the word visions, but 00:05:37.900 --> 00:05:44.680 there were, there were ideas that came to mind and opportunities. And it just didn't never fit within the 00:05:44.680 --> 00:05:50.660 infrastructure, within the churches, within the organizations. It didn't fit within their vision. And so oftentimes, those 00:05:50.660 --> 00:05:56.020 dreams, the majority of the time, those dreams were, were cast aside. But I think as we're leaning into 00:05:56.020 --> 00:06:02.260 post COVID era, I think the opportunity to do something different, to dream, to innovate, 00:06:02.740 --> 00:06:07.980 there's no better time than now towards that. All right, we're going to get back to this podcast in 00:06:07.980 --> 00:06:12.780 just one second, but I wanted to give you a heads up for something that's coming up. We're talking about 00:06:12.780 --> 00:06:18.540 missional imagination here with Patrick from new thing. It's a great conversation, but we want to hear 00:06:18.540 --> 00:06:24.780 what your missional imagination is. We want to hear what you are imagining. And so we are doing a 00:06:24.780 --> 00:06:31.960 round table dedicated for you so that we can talk about this topic. So we are gathering together 00:06:31.960 --> 00:06:40.200 Tuesday, October 4th, 7 p.m. Eastern. We're going to be on a zoom and we're going to want to hear from 00:06:40.200 --> 00:06:43.520 you. We're going to talk about it. Patrick's going to be there. I'm going to be there. Others are going to be 00:06:43.520 --> 00:06:48.760 there. And let's hear from you what your missional imagination. As you're listening to this podcast, 00:06:48.880 --> 00:06:56.460 you may have ideas and we want to hear from you. So plan on that. Go to thechurch.digital 00:06:56.460 --> 00:07:03.040 slash imagination for more information. Thechurch.digital slash imagination. More information 00:07:03.040 --> 00:07:09.520 on missional imagination right there. Thechurch.digital slash imagination. See you October 4th 00:07:09.520 --> 00:07:13.880 at the missional imagination round table. All right, let's get back to the podcast. 00:07:13.880 --> 00:07:19.640 So, so Patrick, let me, let's just, let's just bring it back here a little bit. Um, when you talk 00:07:19.640 --> 00:07:25.360 about missional imagination, what, what, what does that look, your new thing, global director, 00:07:25.360 --> 00:07:30.920 you're literally talking to people across the planet. What does missional imagination look like 00:07:30.920 --> 00:07:37.360 in these contexts? Like what are people meaning? What are they people saying and seeing when they're 00:07:37.360 --> 00:07:43.940 talking about this? Yeah, Jeff, it's really good. And I don't know why God has allowed me to sit in this 00:07:43.940 --> 00:07:50.060 chair and talk to great people like you and your audience and, and, um, hear their stories. But what 00:07:50.060 --> 00:07:58.780 I'm convinced of is God, uh, created imagination and he has tasked and given us the opportunity to 00:07:58.780 --> 00:08:04.640 leverage that for his glory. And, uh, of course we work exclusively through church planting. We want to see 00:08:04.640 --> 00:08:09.840 disciples and leaders and churches and networks and movements all reproduced. So I specifically am 00:08:09.840 --> 00:08:16.500 coming at it that way, but I also, uh, so I celebrate imagination. I celebrate creativity 00:08:16.500 --> 00:08:22.280 because I, I truly believe these are gifts from God. I'm, I'm, I'm a lover of music. I'm a lover of 00:08:22.280 --> 00:08:28.340 painting. So I look at it in almost in the same kind of vein as that. And then the other thing that 00:08:28.340 --> 00:08:34.160 at least has been true of my conversations with leaders throughout the world, I mean, I've been in 00:08:34.160 --> 00:08:39.740 this chair about, uh, no, not literally this chair, but the new thing, global director chair, 00:08:39.880 --> 00:08:45.300 uh, for a little over eight years and got to, got to travel around a little bit. And what was 00:08:45.300 --> 00:08:55.460 clear to me as like, as a student of missiology was that paradigms were so powerful and they locked us 00:08:55.460 --> 00:09:03.220 into, uh, these, these, these, these, uh, constructs that were very unimaginative. It's kind of what, 00:09:03.280 --> 00:09:08.360 you know, we've all know is like, Hey, this is how we do things. This is how we are taught to do 00:09:08.360 --> 00:09:14.500 things. And this is how we're going to do things then. And what I think we've all learned, certainly 00:09:14.500 --> 00:09:22.820 post COVID is that is no longer true, uh, where the church and the very foundational paradigms, 00:09:22.900 --> 00:09:28.020 ecclesiological paradigms, missiological paradigms have been challenged in some pretty 00:09:28.020 --> 00:09:35.620 remarkable ways. And so imagination for me becomes, uh, this opportunity to kind of tune into a different 00:09:35.620 --> 00:09:43.240 frequency of the Holy spirit. If you can go there with me, um, because I've watched God use women and 00:09:43.240 --> 00:09:49.900 men all over the world who allow themselves this imagination, this, this, this opportunity to 00:09:49.900 --> 00:09:56.460 reimagine or imagine for the first time, something great. Um, you know, our, our brother, Dave Ferguson, 00:09:56.460 --> 00:10:03.100 um, talks about this idea of the big dream. And he, if you were here, he tells, he tells you a story 00:10:03.100 --> 00:10:10.900 about, you know, the, the thing that had unleashed him to, um, to envision a big, bold future through 00:10:10.900 --> 00:10:18.300 exponential, through new thing, et cetera, was this idea of having permission to dream big, 00:10:18.400 --> 00:10:24.120 to use missional imagination. And the reason I like, the reason I like missional imagination 00:10:24.120 --> 00:10:31.260 together, imagination is, is wonderful in a lot of scenarios, but you and I, Jeff, we're talking 00:10:31.260 --> 00:10:35.700 about the kingdom. We're talking about evangelism. We're talking about discipleship. We're talking about 00:10:35.700 --> 00:10:43.440 church planting in the digital space and the missional component reminds us that we are imaginative in the 00:10:43.440 --> 00:10:49.140 context of the mission. Um, and, and, and that's really what is powerful for me. And I think that's 00:10:49.140 --> 00:10:54.760 where it started. Yeah. I can tell you so many of the conversations that I have, I've had with, 00:10:54.820 --> 00:11:00.040 with digital church planters and metaverse people, it's, it's giving them permission. 00:11:00.380 --> 00:11:06.860 Like if they, uh, they, they have this crazy idea. I mean, honest to God, I've, I've had this 00:11:06.860 --> 00:11:12.660 conversation. I'm not exaggerating hundreds of times, Jeff, I found you on Google. You're the only 00:11:12.660 --> 00:11:19.200 person that seems to be thinking this way, but I have this crazy idea. My, my, my pastor does not 00:11:19.200 --> 00:11:25.400 understand what I'm talking about. My denomination does not care. Even my spouse and my friends, 00:11:25.400 --> 00:11:30.620 because they've never seen it before. They don't know how to be supportive. Am I actually being 00:11:30.620 --> 00:11:35.980 crazy? You know, it was funny. Like, and I started having those conversations back in 2019, 2020. 00:11:36.460 --> 00:11:41.900 And, and, and, and back in 2020, I was like, maybe you are a little crazy, but give it a shot. See what 00:11:41.900 --> 00:11:46.700 happens. But by this point now, when we're doing this recording in 22, like when I have those 00:11:46.700 --> 00:11:52.200 conversations, usually there's very rare that I find a crazy idea that I've never heard of, 00:11:52.220 --> 00:11:57.000 or at least that isn't similar to what somebody else is doing. And so it's not, you're not crazy. 00:11:57.220 --> 00:12:02.660 As a matter of fact, there's two other people that are doing a different spin on what you're talking 00:12:02.660 --> 00:12:07.480 about. Would you like to meet them? Could I introduce you to them? So you can start to maybe 00:12:07.480 --> 00:12:13.920 even collaborate and start to learn from each other and share some of these experiences. And what's, 00:12:13.920 --> 00:12:19.320 what's fascinating is that as they start to talk together and, and as they even start to do 00:12:19.320 --> 00:12:25.200 different things with the, with these imaginative ideas and digital and metaverse, um, man, we're 00:12:25.200 --> 00:12:31.040 finding the reaching different types of people than what the buildings are. And, and, and it's so 00:12:31.040 --> 00:12:36.220 fascinating to me, the, the perception that the physical buildings have, that the idea of the digital 00:12:36.220 --> 00:12:41.180 churches and competition, and that, that is trying to pull people away from the building, 00:12:41.180 --> 00:12:46.700 the ecclesia, the physical community, uh, when in fact it's, it's just reaching a completely 00:12:46.700 --> 00:12:51.580 different type of person than, than what the building is reaching. And it's completing the 00:12:51.580 --> 00:12:56.760 great commission. It's not competing over the great commission. Sorry. Soapbox is, is over, 00:12:56.760 --> 00:13:02.780 but you know, that's really the heart of this is giving people permission to do something and not 00:13:02.780 --> 00:13:04.320 viewing it as, as competition. 00:13:04.320 --> 00:13:10.000 And, and when you can get, it's, it's well said. And, and what, what, what has been fun working with 00:13:10.000 --> 00:13:15.820 you, brother, is that, uh, the group of people that you're connecting with in the digital space, 00:13:15.820 --> 00:13:19.920 and I'm a learner here, I'm, I'm, I'm learning, I'm listening. I'm trying to celebrate all that 00:13:19.920 --> 00:13:24.900 you're doing that you and your peers are doing, but it's, it's a, it's a new space. It's like a new 00:13:24.900 --> 00:13:30.880 art scene. It's like a new, uh, skunk works. And I, I think Jeff, you don't know where this is 00:13:30.880 --> 00:13:35.620 going, right? You're a pretty smart guy. You're, you're pretty engaged. You're, you're learning as 00:13:35.620 --> 00:13:39.940 fast as you can. You're talking to the right people, but that's what makes it fun. And what's 00:13:39.940 --> 00:13:46.740 going to, how we get to a place where this actually becomes fruit for the kingdom in the digital space, 00:13:46.780 --> 00:13:52.740 suggesting is going to require a bunch of leaders and men and women, just like, you know, who are 00:13:52.740 --> 00:13:59.600 listening to this, who are willing to take the risk and imagine, uh, a preferred future. And then to 00:13:59.600 --> 00:14:04.700 begin to build that preferred future. Now we, of course, as we follow Jesus, we are convinced that 00:14:04.700 --> 00:14:09.980 and confess that the Holy spirit empowers that. Uh, and so this is right in line with how God's always 00:14:09.980 --> 00:14:15.980 done things. I think, I think about Abram, right? You know, go, uh, he didn't, he didn't have anything, 00:14:15.980 --> 00:14:21.620 but an imagination of what could be. God was go back and read Genesis. You know, God was not very 00:14:21.620 --> 00:14:27.620 specific about the details. You know, uh, it was, it was, and I can imagine my, you know, putting 00:14:27.620 --> 00:14:33.820 myself in Abram's, uh, shoes and, and, and like imagining the journey and then the, then what's 00:14:33.820 --> 00:14:39.600 going to happen and, and, and listening to God and going with him on it. So it's, it's wonderful when 00:14:39.600 --> 00:14:45.180 it's individual. Here's where it gets really good though, Jeff, when you can build a culture 00:14:45.180 --> 00:14:50.180 in your church and your organization here, we're talking about church, of course, whether it's 00:14:50.180 --> 00:14:55.640 digital or whether it's not, when you can build a missional culture that is full of missional 00:14:55.640 --> 00:15:02.480 imagination of people who are, who are missionally imaginative, it's awesome. It's awesome. Um, 00:15:02.480 --> 00:15:07.520 and so that's what I'd love to help you and your, your audience kind of, um, you know, understand, 00:15:07.520 --> 00:15:11.660 and maybe can just submit to you today is that it's, you know, I feel like God's given me an 00:15:11.660 --> 00:15:15.940 imagination. He's given you a dream. He's given me a dream. Uh, you know, we need to, 00:15:16.120 --> 00:15:21.340 that's sacred, but man, when we can get together and when, whether you're leading a digital church 00:15:21.340 --> 00:15:25.440 or whether you're leading a micro or whether you're in India or whether you're in Bangladesh 00:15:25.440 --> 00:15:31.260 or in, you're in Chicago, when you can get a group of people who are imaginative on fire, 00:15:31.660 --> 00:15:35.240 missional, that's where you're going to see fruit for the kingdom. And that's, I guess, 00:15:35.280 --> 00:15:40.480 why I keep coming back to it. Let's unpack an idea. Like I literally, I want you to give me an 00:15:40.480 --> 00:15:48.380 example. Um, and, and, and an imaginative idea with missional implication, like, like something 00:15:48.380 --> 00:15:53.740 that that's new, that's different, but it's, is serving purpose for, for the kingdom. Like I've 00:15:53.740 --> 00:15:59.300 got plenty of crazy ideas. Uh, I've got plenty of ideas that probably can serve the kingdom. What, 00:15:59.360 --> 00:16:02.900 what does it look like when we actually position and package both of these together? 00:16:02.900 --> 00:16:07.560 That's a great question. I, here's, here's how I want to, I think I might answer it in two parts if 00:16:07.560 --> 00:16:15.100 I may. First is, I just want to give you a little vignette. Um, I'm, I'm in Thailand with a group of 00:16:15.100 --> 00:16:22.460 leaders who I don't speak their language. Uh, they're, they're young men and women, uh, Thai people, 00:16:22.460 --> 00:16:31.160 uh, who are on fire for Jesus, um, who are, um, mostly biblically trained theologians. Uh, 00:16:31.160 --> 00:16:37.100 they're very remarkable and smart people and they are, uh, I'm there to help them, uh, in this, 00:16:37.200 --> 00:16:43.080 in this room, it's blistering hot, you know, uh, I'm hungry, uh, missing home a little bit, 00:16:43.080 --> 00:16:48.220 but there to serve them. And, um, you know, in their culture, things are a little bit, uh, 00:16:48.220 --> 00:16:52.920 structured. And even just the way the room was set up, it was almost set up like a classroom 00:16:52.920 --> 00:16:58.980 environment and, um, you know, new things all about helping leaders collaborate together. 00:16:59.460 --> 00:17:05.340 But what, what happened there in, in the course of those couple of days with those leaders in Thailand 00:17:05.340 --> 00:17:11.600 was, uh, what, what we kind of refer to now as the unlocking of missional imagination, 00:17:11.600 --> 00:17:18.120 because once they didn't need permission from me, I think they needed permission from some of 00:17:18.120 --> 00:17:25.160 their established leaders. But once those leaders said, it's okay for you to imagine a new preferred 00:17:25.160 --> 00:17:30.520 future for the church in Thailand, Jeff, I tell you, it was like somebody opened the windows, 00:17:31.140 --> 00:17:36.380 the sunlight poured in, the breeze came in, the birds started singing, there was laughter, 00:17:36.580 --> 00:17:42.540 there were smiles. We helped them collaborate around tables. They're drawing. And I, I'm getting 00:17:42.540 --> 00:17:48.440 goosebumps about it right now because it was like one of those moments we didn't do anything, but, 00:17:48.540 --> 00:17:54.960 but help them do what God wanted to do in and through them. And for them, the, the, the idea that 00:17:54.960 --> 00:18:01.480 was a game changer was that they could plant church and they could make disciples and plant churches 00:18:01.480 --> 00:18:08.320 in networks. And that was a new paradigm for them because it used, you know, the, the kind of the 00:18:08.320 --> 00:18:14.800 older paradigm is like, I go to Bible college. I try to, you know, raise funds. I try to, I try to 00:18:14.800 --> 00:18:21.020 start something on my own. Of course I'll have a team, but this day and, and, and, and we've seen this 00:18:21.020 --> 00:18:27.760 happen all over the world on this day, it was like that aha moment. Wait, wait, we can imagine a 00:18:27.760 --> 00:18:34.360 preferred future where we all benefit. We all grow. And we most importantly achieve greater things for 00:18:34.360 --> 00:18:39.040 the kingdom. Um, that's why I'm also a big fan of collaboration. So passionate about it, but that's, 00:18:39.220 --> 00:18:46.760 that's, um, that's certainly one idea. I think the other one is been, um, is been the, the shift, 00:18:46.760 --> 00:18:53.720 and this is more in your, um, in your expertise, but I think that the, where missional imagination is 00:18:53.720 --> 00:19:02.120 now, uh, where I see it being used the most often is with, with a group of people who we, we might call 00:19:02.120 --> 00:19:09.020 them microchurch leaders. Um, and these leaders, and this is happening quickly post COVID again, just 00:19:09.020 --> 00:19:17.620 from my chair, these leaders are quickly realizing God's called them to make disciples and to plant 00:19:17.620 --> 00:19:24.160 churches, but it's going to look different. And so having the opportunity to work with a young couple, 00:19:24.160 --> 00:19:33.160 uh, in Aurora, who has, has missional imagination to create a safe place for women and men who are 00:19:33.160 --> 00:19:37.740 struggling with gender identity issues. Don't know where you stand on that theologically. It's not 00:19:37.740 --> 00:19:43.500 important, right? Missionally it's critical. And so you have a couple here and they're talking about 00:19:43.500 --> 00:19:49.960 where to meet these folks, how to connect, how to build, how to build community with them. And the 00:19:49.960 --> 00:19:53.920 only thing that's driving them at the moment, cause there aren't many paradigms about this 00:19:53.920 --> 00:19:57.000 is their missional imagination. So that's what I love about it. 00:19:57.000 --> 00:20:05.020 Yeah. There's, there's lots of fresh expressions, unique takes, um, you know, re-imagining, you know, 00:20:05.060 --> 00:20:12.220 I can remember, I heard, um, DJ Soto, lead pastor, Bishop, probably at this point of, of VR church. Uh, 00:20:12.260 --> 00:20:17.940 you know, he, he was like, it's not time to recreate the church. It's time to re-imagine, uh, the church 00:20:17.940 --> 00:20:23.820 and, and, and it's not, and it's not changing the ecclesiology, but it's imagining, re-imagining what 00:20:23.820 --> 00:20:30.060 that ecclesiology needs to look like in, in, you know, in digital spaces that's bringing, um, you know, 00:20:30.060 --> 00:20:36.040 gosh, I got so many different expressions, obviously what, what DJ's doing in virtual reality. Um, you 00:20:36.040 --> 00:20:41.060 know, it's funny, we're, we're actually, uh, a podcast that's recently coming up about here, I think just the 00:20:41.060 --> 00:20:46.120 week before when this, when this airs, um, we're working with a church right now that's actually 00:20:46.120 --> 00:20:51.680 opening a, a, uh, virtual reality bar. Patrick, I don't think I've told you the story. We're, 00:20:51.740 --> 00:21:00.240 we're in the process of opening a bar in virtual reality in, in VR chat and looking to, uh, to use 00:21:00.240 --> 00:21:06.120 it relationally to, to connect with people, to build relationships, to talk, uh, to engage with, 00:21:06.220 --> 00:21:12.340 with people in, in, in conversation. And so like, is that, is that a full church? Uh, probably not. 00:21:12.340 --> 00:21:16.500 Can that be the front door relationally to a shared experience to get people connected 00:21:16.500 --> 00:21:22.980 into something deeper? Certainly. And, and so, you know, I think even realizing the thing with 00:21:22.980 --> 00:21:28.380 collaboration, and this is something that I don't think we realized 20 years ago or even two years ago, 00:21:28.380 --> 00:21:34.940 is that I don't have to be the turnkey solution to everything. You know, I, I know in, in my church 00:21:34.940 --> 00:21:41.200 staff years, I felt the burden with my imaginative ideas to complete the whole ecclesiology, to find 00:21:41.200 --> 00:21:48.600 ways to do it all entirely on myself. But if we're working in networks, if, if we're partnering with 00:21:48.600 --> 00:21:54.140 others, if we're collaborating, if we're operating in our weaknesses, now we have the opportunity to do 00:21:54.140 --> 00:22:00.400 our part and then start to connect and hand off to somebody else for that next part. You know, we're 00:22:00.400 --> 00:22:05.940 even seeing that with like streamers who are very excited about the kingdom, uh, like Twitch streamers, 00:22:06.020 --> 00:22:11.900 but they're not that interested or not even fully aware of what the disciple making could be and looks 00:22:11.900 --> 00:22:16.900 like, but they can partner with somebody that's very strong in digital discipleship that can take 00:22:16.900 --> 00:22:22.700 those leads and that relationship from the streamer and engage them and put them into a, a digital 00:22:22.700 --> 00:22:28.640 discipleship process. And so now we're starting to see where instead of all of, you know, us carrying 00:22:28.640 --> 00:22:34.520 the burden entirely on our own, so we can start to work and collaborate with, with others. I'm, I'm curious 00:22:34.520 --> 00:22:39.840 because I see that very much in digital space, Patrick, because of the collaborative nature of 00:22:39.840 --> 00:22:46.960 digital and metaverse right now. Does that exist physically where you're seeing like, uh, organizations 00:22:46.960 --> 00:22:52.460 or people taking part of the process, but not whole, the whole process and then working within the 00:22:52.460 --> 00:22:57.340 networks. Is that prevalent? Yeah. You know, it's a great question, Jeff. I, I think, you know, 00:22:57.340 --> 00:23:04.720 it's easy to see the new imagination that is being brought to bear around digital. And that's number 00:23:04.720 --> 00:23:10.720 one, why I'm so excited. I think the other, the other thing that I'm seeing is, you know, you brought 00:23:10.720 --> 00:23:15.360 up collaboration and collaboration as, as we talk about it and you, you know, Jeff, you're part of 00:23:15.660 --> 00:23:21.820 conversations for us, but the it's, it's way beyond just, I, you know, let's work together and sing 00:23:21.820 --> 00:23:27.100 Kumbaya. It's, it's, it's something holy and spiritual. And what, what, uh, our friend Alan 00:23:27.100 --> 00:23:34.580 Hirsch talks about, he borrowed this term from the art world called scenius and scenius is the genius 00:23:34.580 --> 00:23:39.460 of the scene. You know, and if you think about like Jeff, you know, this, I'm, I'm an old punk rock 00:23:39.460 --> 00:23:44.300 guy, right. It's the old, uh, it's the old scene, you know, they called them a scene for a reason 00:23:44.300 --> 00:23:51.280 because every artist was, was, was riffing off of other artists. You know, you see this, if you're, 00:23:51.620 --> 00:23:55.820 if you're, uh, if you're a fan of American literature, for instance, that the, in Paris, 00:23:55.960 --> 00:24:00.340 all these American authors lived in this one that, you know, there's one neighborhood in Paris. 00:24:00.440 --> 00:24:05.180 Well, they, they, they worked off of each other. They riffed off of each other. That's what I'm 00:24:05.180 --> 00:24:12.340 starting to see, Jeff. And so a specific example is, uh, especially in the Western context, um, 00:24:12.340 --> 00:24:20.520 in the Western context, I'm tending to see this in, um, in, in, uh, convictions around city movements, 00:24:20.520 --> 00:24:26.280 around gospel saturation. So, you know, and, and that's changed significantly post COVID where 00:24:26.280 --> 00:24:31.740 there's a, where leaders are much more inclined, uh, maybe they're being forced to work together, 00:24:31.740 --> 00:24:38.820 but they're also seeing missional imagination as the way to their collaboration. Now I know it's a 00:24:38.820 --> 00:24:43.100 little fuzzy there, but bear with me a second, because what they're realizing is that, Hey, 00:24:43.140 --> 00:24:50.400 if we're really serious about changing the spiritual landscape of the city or the region or whatever, 00:24:50.620 --> 00:24:57.740 you know, whatever the target is, then we're going to need to dream big. We're going to need to build 00:24:57.740 --> 00:25:04.180 cultures of, uh, of missional imagination in our churches. And we're going to have to get behind 00:25:04.180 --> 00:25:11.500 new expressions and new, um, new styles of evangelism, new ecclesiological models, et cetera. 00:25:11.700 --> 00:25:19.680 So the good news is, is I'm seeing a, a much better willingness to do that. And that's again, 00:25:19.680 --> 00:25:25.000 back to this term, missional imagination, missional implying we're going. So it used to be like, Hey, 00:25:25.000 --> 00:25:29.060 let's decorate the church a little bit differently and get a different crowd in here. Let's do 00:25:29.060 --> 00:25:34.800 different services and put on Hawaiian shirts, no offense. And another new crowd will come in. But 00:25:34.800 --> 00:25:40.540 the, that, that paradigm is shifted. It's not, they come to us. We use our imagination to make it easier 00:25:40.540 --> 00:25:46.580 for them to come to us. We use our imagination to go to them. So I've, I've, you know, there's a story 00:25:46.580 --> 00:25:54.760 of a pastor in Chicagoland, uh, pastor shine. He'd be great on your, on your show, Jeff. Um, but he is 00:25:54.760 --> 00:26:02.720 from India and in Chicagoland, uh, there's a, there's a massive Indian diaspora community. And he lives in a, 00:26:02.720 --> 00:26:12.060 in an area of the city that is, um, full of, uh, immigrants from, from central Asia. And pastor shine 00:26:12.060 --> 00:26:19.260 is involving his church, which meets in a little tiny storefront, um, right in the heart and the 00:26:19.260 --> 00:26:24.100 thick of this neighborhood. There's Muslims, there's Buddhists, there's, there's, there's non-believers 00:26:24.100 --> 00:26:30.240 are all in this kind of neighborhood area. And pastor shine and his team are using missional 00:26:30.240 --> 00:26:37.040 imagination to engage people, uh, in new and bold ways through neighborhood events, through outreach 00:26:37.040 --> 00:26:42.120 events. They have, um, he was telling me a couple of weeks ago, and I'm probably getting all the details 00:26:42.120 --> 00:26:47.940 wrong, but drinking tea in this culture is very important. If you want to build friendship, you 00:26:47.940 --> 00:26:55.720 offer tea, uh, to one another. So they have teas for people to come and learn about Jesus. And, uh, 00:26:55.720 --> 00:27:03.520 he's telling me that it's imagination through his team that is helping them engage all of this 00:27:03.520 --> 00:27:06.940 community that God has called them to. So that's one quick story that comes to mind. 00:27:07.420 --> 00:27:13.200 Awesome. And that actually kind of saved way into the next question I wanted to ask. Um, so let's 00:27:13.200 --> 00:27:20.040 say I don't have imagination. Like that's not, that's not your, what you're saying excites me. And to be 00:27:20.040 --> 00:27:25.980 honest, there, there are times where, um, you know, I, as, as a person, you know, I'm a very, very creative 00:27:25.980 --> 00:27:31.940 individual. And if you know me, I'm also a very get it done individual. And sometimes the get it done hat 00:27:31.940 --> 00:27:38.220 is on for a longer period of time than the creative hat. And, and, you know, there are, there are seasons 00:27:38.220 --> 00:27:44.880 where, where my imagination is dried up. It's just go, go, go. So like I, if, if someone is, is wired 00:27:44.880 --> 00:27:49.660 either in that way, or, you know what, I'm really not just the, I'm not the creative guy. Like I just 00:27:49.660 --> 00:27:57.140 don't have really imaginative like dreams. Um, how, how am I part of this missional imagination 00:27:57.140 --> 00:28:03.260 without the imagination piece? Yeah. Um, yeah, I think in all due respect, um, all of us have 00:28:03.260 --> 00:28:08.460 imagination. I completely understand the context and the character of your question. It's just not 00:28:08.460 --> 00:28:13.500 cultivated. It's a gift that not as cultivated in some of our systems and structures in church 00:28:13.500 --> 00:28:19.560 have squashed it, frankly. Right. Um, and this happens in places outside of the church. 00:28:19.560 --> 00:28:24.020 I was in business. You have a good idea and, uh, you think it could change everything and 00:28:24.020 --> 00:28:29.240 nobody cares, right? Cause the systems and the structures are, are, they're in place and this 00:28:29.240 --> 00:28:35.620 is what we do and this is how we do it. Um, you know, this is a highly spiritual, uh, kind 00:28:35.620 --> 00:28:41.540 of endeavor at first. Um, what, what is all I can do, Jeff has described to you my own journey 00:28:41.540 --> 00:28:47.300 and then, you know, maybe what I hear and see and have experienced anecdotally. Um, and I 00:28:47.300 --> 00:28:52.980 think, you know, I, I do want to call on Ephesians for the, the apostolic gift, not in the spooky 00:28:52.980 --> 00:29:00.020 way, but, uh, this is a gift that some of us have, um, that we can't help ourselves, but 00:29:00.020 --> 00:29:04.700 think about what could be, uh, it doesn't mean that we're better or anything like that. It's 00:29:04.700 --> 00:29:10.440 how, it's how God collects into the body, these gifts and empowers each and every one of us 00:29:10.440 --> 00:29:17.180 as necessary elements of the body. But if you feel like, Hey, you know what? I am a dreamer 00:29:17.180 --> 00:29:22.780 or I'm going, but I'm going through a dry spell or I used to have some really great ideas and 00:29:22.780 --> 00:29:28.120 dreams, uh, about what could be for the church. And I just, I just haven't been there. It's 00:29:28.120 --> 00:29:34.000 probably, it's probably sign you need to push away from the desk for a short season, whether 00:29:34.000 --> 00:29:39.380 that's an afternoon, whether that's a couple of days at a retreat center, going for a walk 00:29:39.380 --> 00:29:44.920 or whatever ways that you can hear from the Lord. But what I think I want to answer the 00:29:44.920 --> 00:29:51.680 question with Jeff is create space so that you can hear from God, create space. And you 00:29:51.680 --> 00:29:57.180 might just have to say doing the same things over and over, as we all know is insanity, 00:29:57.180 --> 00:30:01.920 you know, right. Doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results is insanity. 00:30:02.120 --> 00:30:10.080 And so how do we stop doing things over and over for a short space? And, uh, gosh, I've known guys 00:30:10.080 --> 00:30:16.280 and women who have gone, you know, Hey, I went away the afternoon. I had a picnic and Lord spoke to me. 00:30:16.320 --> 00:30:19.880 And this is what I know is what we're doing. You know, this is, this is my imagined imagination. 00:30:20.220 --> 00:30:26.040 Um, Dave Ferguson, our friend, you know, he, we kind of poke fun of it, uh, as a, as a team, 00:30:26.040 --> 00:30:33.560 but it's remarkably, uh, effective. Um, he really insists that you need to dream on a napkin 00:30:33.560 --> 00:30:42.160 or a serviette, whatever you use in your culture. Right. But like get away and, and let, let go of 00:30:42.160 --> 00:30:47.920 the responsibility, break out of the paradigms as best as you can. And so what I'm arguing for is 00:30:47.920 --> 00:30:54.820 space. There's no checklist. There's no time. Um, myself personally, I needed that brother. You know, 00:30:54.880 --> 00:30:59.780 I needed to get a little, I needed to get away in July. I got to celebrate my, my anniversary and all, 00:30:59.860 --> 00:31:07.620 but I needed to push back because I found myself running out of imagination, you know, and by the 00:31:07.620 --> 00:31:12.580 way, Jeff, I'll just say this and then I'll, I'll quiet on this question. Creativity and imagination 00:31:12.580 --> 00:31:18.420 will drain you. And so you have to be, you have to bring, you know, your best time. My best time is 00:31:18.420 --> 00:31:23.460 the morning. I'm most creative in the mornings. I get up early, I do my runs and then I'm most 00:31:23.460 --> 00:31:29.740 creative. So if you want, if I'm going to be creative, I know myself, it's not at five o'clock 00:31:29.740 --> 00:31:34.820 in the afternoon, you know? So I don't know what this looks like for you and every one of your listeners. 00:31:35.220 --> 00:31:41.400 Uh, but I think it's important to create that space here from the God, here from God and allow 00:31:41.400 --> 00:31:48.880 yourself the, the, uh, the permission you have permission to allow God to create this wonderful 00:31:48.880 --> 00:31:54.320 missional imagination in you. Love that to take the time, get some space and, and be aware that that 00:31:54.320 --> 00:32:01.260 creativity, it does, does drain you. That was, that was really well said. How do I know, uh, 00:32:01.260 --> 00:32:08.240 if an idea is of God or if I'm just crazy? I'm to be honest, I'm just going to be completely blunt. 00:32:08.240 --> 00:32:17.800 The year 2005 to 2018, 20, I was asking those questions because a lot of the people around me, 00:32:18.300 --> 00:32:25.380 you know, you were talking about take permission. Nobody around me was even given myself permission 00:32:25.380 --> 00:32:30.720 for that. And so I was, it was a very hard season. How do you know it's of God? 00:32:31.040 --> 00:32:36.580 Yeah. Um, I'm, I'm writing it down just to remind myself. And again, Jeff, speaking from my own 00:32:36.580 --> 00:32:43.000 personal story, cause that's really it. I think number one, and this is wisdom that other leaders 00:32:43.000 --> 00:32:48.260 have given me. And if I can pass a little long to your, your, your, your listeners, number one is I 00:32:48.260 --> 00:32:55.620 need to create daily space for God. I need to make sure that that's built into the rhythms of Patrick's 00:32:55.620 --> 00:33:01.380 life. So that's number one. If that's not happening, start there. For me, it's 15, 20 minutes on the 00:33:01.380 --> 00:33:07.840 chair, on that blue chair behind me that some of your people can see sitting there, um, quietly 00:33:07.840 --> 00:33:12.520 waiting on the Lord. That's number one. And it's taken me a long, long time. And some days I do it 00:33:12.520 --> 00:33:18.220 better. Other days it's a mess, but that's number one. Number two is prayer. Uh, and I'm not hyper 00:33:18.220 --> 00:33:22.880 spiritualizing this. I'm going to get to this, but you really need to submit yourself to the Lordship 00:33:22.880 --> 00:33:30.400 of Christ. He doesn't give us missional imagination so that we can be great. He provides the spirit and 00:33:30.400 --> 00:33:35.640 the power of missional imagination so that we can make him and his mission great. And so you just got 00:33:35.640 --> 00:33:42.440 to approach it in that posture, um, read scripture, because if, if you're not reading and internalizing 00:33:42.440 --> 00:33:49.120 and meditating, uh, the word, then you, you are, you run the risk of, of kind of making it up. Um, 00:33:49.120 --> 00:33:54.280 and then here's the last bit for me, Jeff, that I think is kind of the clincher. What does the 00:33:54.280 --> 00:34:01.820 community of Jesus followers around you say and think? So I've had, I, I, I can be an idea machine. 00:34:02.140 --> 00:34:08.040 I don't know what it is. I can create 10 ideas around one topic and most of them are always bad, 00:34:08.040 --> 00:34:14.940 but what I, what I've, what I've learned, especially as an organizational leader, especially as a church 00:34:14.940 --> 00:34:23.040 planter is that I am not authorized to just take the community anywhere I want because I'm, I've got an 00:34:23.040 --> 00:34:29.080 idea. That's not the way this works. The way this works is I submit myself. I create space. 00:34:29.480 --> 00:34:35.440 I listen well. And then I check in with the community of people that I'm connected with my 00:34:35.440 --> 00:34:42.560 local church or whatever. Hey, here's what I feel. God's telling me. What do you think? And this is, 00:34:42.720 --> 00:34:47.400 this has been good counsel for me personally. I've passed along this kind of counsel to others 00:34:47.400 --> 00:34:53.540 and it seems to help. So that's what I can offer you today in terms of how do I know a good or a bad 00:34:53.540 --> 00:34:58.060 idea? There's other metrics. Of course you can bring, is this going to, uh, you know, 00:34:58.060 --> 00:35:05.340 one of the metrics that I always use for an idea, does it help or hurt what God's trying to do? 00:35:06.340 --> 00:35:10.940 Um, does it help or hurt? Uh, and then the other one that I always, there's another filter. I always 00:35:10.940 --> 00:35:19.340 runs through my head is will this empower others, uh, as much as it empowers me or I, or I think it's a 00:35:19.340 --> 00:35:25.300 good idea. So if it's not good for Jeff, it's probably not good for me at the same time. And so I'm, 00:35:25.300 --> 00:35:29.560 I always kind of wrestled through those filters a little bit. It's a little sketchy, but I hope I give 00:35:29.560 --> 00:35:34.700 you a little bit of a sense of where this comes from. No, I appreciate that. By, by the way, the 00:35:34.700 --> 00:35:40.420 look at the community around you and get a vibe for them. Transparently, that's, that's the reason 00:35:40.420 --> 00:35:45.280 why we started Digital Church Network. That's, that's why I left Stadia to create that. Cause after 00:35:45.280 --> 00:35:50.200 helping, you know, the couple dozen planters or whatever we're able to work through with Stadia, 00:35:50.580 --> 00:35:56.920 actually planting the church, getting them through the, their, the exhaustive process, we really, um, 00:35:57.180 --> 00:36:04.500 started seeing that the problem wasn't at the plant or at the cohort, but we were losing a lot of people 00:36:04.500 --> 00:36:13.160 because they didn't have the, the sending organization, the sending denomination, the, the, the, the spouse 00:36:13.160 --> 00:36:20.120 support, like the, the community to lean on there. There wasn't awareness before they even got to, 00:36:20.120 --> 00:36:26.080 to Stadia to plant. And, and, you know, quickly it just became obvious. Hey, there, there's, 00:36:26.440 --> 00:36:30.900 there's a need. If we're really going to make a difference in this, we can't do it 00:36:30.900 --> 00:36:36.780 within the planter at that point in the process within the cohort. We've really got to go create 00:36:36.780 --> 00:36:43.780 that community, which is now DCN's fam. We got to create that community and invite others in and 00:36:43.780 --> 00:36:49.700 encourage them through the community. And that's something that as leaders, DCN, I mean, we, 00:36:49.700 --> 00:36:55.160 we, in a leadership meeting yesterday, we were talking about how to be more effective and how to 00:36:55.160 --> 00:37:01.960 utilize the networks that we're creating within DCN, how to encourage dreaming outside, even bringing 00:37:01.960 --> 00:37:07.500 others into that. And so like, it's the desire. I didn't, Patrick, I didn't know you were going to 00:37:07.500 --> 00:37:14.120 say that, but that right there is the summarization of, of why, uh, DCN is DCN. I love your heart for 00:37:14.120 --> 00:37:20.000 community. And even what you've helped me understand, Jeff, is even in the digital space, um, you know, 00:37:20.000 --> 00:37:26.880 we're still embodied individuals and we still need community. Uh, and, and God uses that. And that's 00:37:26.880 --> 00:37:31.900 where it happened. You know, imagination happens in the context of that community. Um, you know, 00:37:31.900 --> 00:37:35.400 the business world and other parts of the world, it's like, Oh, I got an idea and I'm going to go 00:37:35.400 --> 00:37:42.900 make money off of that. We don't do that. Uh, we, we, we dream these missional dreams and we submit 00:37:42.900 --> 00:37:48.880 them to the community and the community does it. And so I love, love, love that you have, um, you've made 00:37:48.880 --> 00:37:56.380 this a real point, uh, in your family. And it's why we are so passionate at new thing about starting, 00:37:56.380 --> 00:38:03.580 uh, new things, but we're equally committed to sustaining things. And that's our network. Uh, 00:38:03.580 --> 00:38:11.160 and so, uh, Jeff, I just affirm it, love it. Can't encourage any of your listeners who are trying to do 00:38:11.160 --> 00:38:16.800 this alone, especially in the digital space, hook up with this family. Like, seriously, don't do this 00:38:16.800 --> 00:38:22.420 alone. God's not called you to do it alone. Um, and, and go on this journey together. You'll have 00:38:22.420 --> 00:38:27.040 much more fun and it will be much more fruitful. I guarantee you that. 00:38:27.500 --> 00:38:33.080 That's awesome. Well, let me ask this. So, um, you know, oftentimes when I hear this is what I tell 00:38:33.080 --> 00:38:38.720 people. So I'm kind of asking the head of new thing network here, is this a good next step or what, 00:38:38.800 --> 00:38:43.800 what would you do better here? So when I hear a crazy idea that just might work, um, my, my, 00:38:43.800 --> 00:38:50.340 my, my next step, uh, my next challenge to these people is usually who's bought into this vision. 00:38:50.420 --> 00:38:57.700 Have you tried casting it? You know, and sometimes the vision is so, um, scattered. I'm like, 00:38:57.700 --> 00:39:02.040 you're not going to be able to convince anybody of this. You're going to have to simplify it and 00:39:02.040 --> 00:39:07.540 solidify it down. Sometimes it's so small. It's like, you're going to need to like beef it up. 00:39:08.000 --> 00:39:12.600 Um, but you know, and start to kind of crowdsource some of that information. You're talking about the 00:39:12.600 --> 00:39:18.320 community around you as well, but there's also a part of, Hey, this vision needs to be bigger than 00:39:18.320 --> 00:39:25.740 you. So start to see how you can recruit or bring people into this idea of missional imagination. 00:39:25.740 --> 00:39:29.740 What, what is, what, what do you recommend on that? Is, is that, is that a good angle or 00:39:29.740 --> 00:39:31.620 what, what's a better step? 00:39:32.020 --> 00:39:39.180 No, no, no. You, I think you've got it brother, because it's also a safeguard for, uh, again, 00:39:39.280 --> 00:39:44.920 the, the, and let me answer it this way. It's a safeguard. It's a, uh, it's a speed bump because 00:39:44.920 --> 00:39:50.500 here's for those of us in the Western context. And I just, I want to be culturally sensitive here a 00:39:50.500 --> 00:39:55.240 minute. We're, you know, we're minority, we're the minority church, the majority churches in places 00:39:55.240 --> 00:40:02.120 like Asia and Africa in the Western context, you know, again, no criticism, no, no defeatism here. 00:40:02.380 --> 00:40:07.820 We tend to be the folks who will say, I'll do it. I'll go first. Not that our African brothers or 00:40:07.820 --> 00:40:12.820 Indian brothers don't, what they do is probably a little bit more wiser, sit around and talk about 00:40:12.820 --> 00:40:18.760 it a bit more, um, and say, how are we going to do this? So one of the, you know, one of the great 00:40:18.760 --> 00:40:26.060 proverbs, uh, from, from Africa that I always use is if you want to go fast, you go alone, 00:40:26.060 --> 00:40:33.580 but if you want to go far, you got to go together. And that's what I would, um, hope that all of us 00:40:33.580 --> 00:40:38.960 learn to do. Uh, the other, the other thing, Jeff, that I'd say is, um, in being part of a community 00:40:38.960 --> 00:40:46.540 like this, especially for a missional imaginist is that you, um, you get to hear what God's doing 00:40:46.540 --> 00:40:51.580 in other contexts. So, so very recently we went through dream week and dream week, uh, at commute 00:40:51.580 --> 00:40:57.140 at, uh, at new thing is just this opportunity for us to listen, learn, and celebrate the global church. 00:40:57.280 --> 00:41:06.000 Uh, so for one week, um, we just, we did that. And I have, I have a notebook full of ideas of insights 00:41:06.000 --> 00:41:13.760 of shared learning, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, because that is where the, the, the, the true 00:41:13.760 --> 00:41:21.500 nature of partnership, uh, comes to play partnership at its, at its base definition is we're going to do 00:41:21.500 --> 00:41:27.100 something together that neither of us can do alone. And that has to be negotiated out. So I hope that 00:41:27.100 --> 00:41:33.620 gives some of your, your listeners kind of a filter or a lens. Uh, it's not the, I got an idea. I'm going 00:41:33.620 --> 00:41:39.120 to go solo and do it. Um, it's having some of those speed bumps. I'm going to submit myself, 00:41:39.120 --> 00:41:44.800 not in an authoritative way, but Hey, this is my tribe. This is my community. Uh, we're on mission 00:41:44.800 --> 00:41:51.020 together. And I've got an idea that I think can help make it better for all of us and increase 00:41:51.020 --> 00:41:56.060 through for the, for the kingdom. That's a good idea. And so those are just some of the ways that, 00:41:56.240 --> 00:42:01.340 because this is all about relationships for us. You know, this Jeff, it is all about relationships. 00:42:01.580 --> 00:42:06.340 Yes. I hope we have great content. Yes. I hope we help churches reproduce at all levels, 00:42:06.340 --> 00:42:12.460 whether it's micro digital macro, I don't care. Yes. I hope we create some collaborative spaces, 00:42:12.460 --> 00:42:18.900 but it is about building community and it is about people. And that's how Jesus postures himself in 00:42:18.900 --> 00:42:24.020 this world. And so I want to just stay there. Hey, awesome. This has been great. So what else 00:42:24.020 --> 00:42:27.580 beyond missional imagination, what else do we need to talk about here? What else do we need to be 00:42:27.580 --> 00:42:33.040 considering? Yeah, I think, um, I think making the connection from missional imagination to 00:42:33.040 --> 00:42:39.060 missional culture. So Jeff, you've asked some really good questions on the kind of the, my dream 00:42:39.060 --> 00:42:43.520 and the vivid vision and all the stuff that we've covered, but I think it's equally important. 00:42:43.640 --> 00:42:48.220 What we're really doing here is leaders in particular, whether it's in the digital space, 00:42:48.280 --> 00:42:53.440 whether it's in micro, whether it's in, um, virtual, uh, and, and really doesn't matter 00:42:53.440 --> 00:43:01.340 culturally where our job as, as leaders of these communities is to create a culture where mission 00:43:01.340 --> 00:43:12.400 is a priority. Um, and the only way you do that is by giving people permission, equipping them for the 00:43:12.400 --> 00:43:19.120 mission that God's called them to do and sending them well. And if you could do those things consistently 00:43:19.120 --> 00:43:25.400 over time, we've seen that you're going to plant new things, you're going to make disciples, you're going 00:43:25.400 --> 00:43:30.600 to do all the things that we all want to see happen for the kingdom of God. So as a leader, 00:43:30.780 --> 00:43:35.160 and I'm specifically thinking of those of you who are listening to this, who are asking themselves, 00:43:35.280 --> 00:43:40.400 am I, am I the leader of this community? Am I the, am I the chaperone of this community? Am I the 00:43:40.400 --> 00:43:47.440 pastor of this community? Probably all the above. Uh, and what, what my, my hope is, is that this 00:43:47.440 --> 00:43:55.040 will inspire you to think, uh, think of your own mission imagination, but help others unleash their 00:43:55.040 --> 00:44:02.520 initial imagination. And that's through permission giving. I know it sounds almost too easy, but as human 00:44:02.520 --> 00:44:09.760 beings, we don't necessarily like change. Uh, and when we try to change things, we often don't have the 00:44:09.760 --> 00:44:14.500 answers of what a preferred future should look like. Think about some of the old, your, the 00:44:14.500 --> 00:44:19.320 circumstances of your own life. If you could be a culture that creates this missional space 00:44:19.320 --> 00:44:25.920 that makes the Jesus mission, the primary thing, and then everything else is really the strategy and 00:44:25.920 --> 00:44:31.540 tactics that is going to unleash and unlock this missional imagination in each and every woman and 00:44:31.540 --> 00:44:36.320 man that is a part of your community. God is going to see it. He's going to bless it. And there's 00:44:36.320 --> 00:44:38.720 going to be great fruit for the kingdom. So that's what I would say there. 00:44:39.120 --> 00:44:45.680 Awesome. That was beautiful. And by the way, like, like I said, this is the first part of the 00:44:45.680 --> 00:44:51.560 conversation. Yeah. We talked about, uh, missional imagination. We, we talked about building a culture 00:44:51.560 --> 00:44:58.100 and, and the culture is not an easy thing to, to build, but it's, it's, it's simple in focus of 00:44:58.100 --> 00:45:03.540 what it can be. And so we want to hear from you and we want to take the second part of this. We want 00:45:03.540 --> 00:45:08.040 to make it far more practical. All right. We talked about this earlier. Quick interruption 00:45:08.040 --> 00:45:14.060 here with the podcast. The missional imagination round table is going to be a Tuesday, October 00:45:14.060 --> 00:45:22.400 4th, 7 PM Eastern. We'd love to get more information to you. Check out the website, thechurch.digital 00:45:22.400 --> 00:45:29.140 slash imagination. And let's get, let's get you connected into this round table Tuesday, October 4th, 00:45:29.140 --> 00:45:36.620 7 PM Eastern. More information, check out thechurch.digital slash imagination. Patrick, man, 00:45:36.680 --> 00:45:41.100 thanks for jumping on the podcast. Uh, as, as we're landing the plane here, man, in any closing 00:45:41.100 --> 00:45:46.600 thoughts? No, I would say, don't forget the, the outcome of all this is movement. Uh, we like to say 00:45:46.600 --> 00:45:52.340 a new thing, missional people, multiplying churches and collaborative networks lead us to movement. So 00:45:52.340 --> 00:45:56.960 if you're wondering how do we really change the game in a big way for Jesus, that's the way we do 00:45:56.960 --> 00:46:01.420 it. Love this conversation, Jeff, and thanks for the opportunity to chat with you. All right. As we're 00:46:01.420 --> 00:46:08.140 landing the plane on the podcast and wrapping things up, quick reminder of the missional imagination 00:46:08.140 --> 00:46:16.500 round table. We are doing Tuesday, October 4th, 7 PM Eastern. For more information on the missional 00:46:16.500 --> 00:46:23.560 imagination round table, check out thechurch.digital slash imagination, thechurch.digital 00:46:23.560 --> 00:46:29.760 slash imagination. Patrick will be there, myself and others. It'll be 7 PM Eastern on Tuesday, 00:46:30.480 --> 00:46:36.460 October 4th. Go ahead and RSVP, get the link to get a reminder for your calendar Tuesday, October 4th, 00:46:36.460 --> 00:46:41.580 7 PM. We're going to land the plane. Thank you, Patrick, for being on the show and, uh, we'll see 00:46:41.580 --> 00:46:45.380 you next time here on the church digital podcast. Y'all have a good day.