WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:05.020 In one year, we had like a hundred people. This is a church that had 12 people worship, right? 00:00:05.420 --> 00:00:10.340 That grew to a hundred people by just like expanding out and starting church for people 00:00:10.340 --> 00:00:15.300 where they actually were at a time that worked for them and a place that worked for them around 00:00:15.300 --> 00:00:19.720 something they actually like to do, like eat barbecue. Welcome to the Church Digital Podcast. 00:00:20.460 --> 00:00:24.520 Through this podcast, we'll talk about the technological innovations within the church, 00:00:24.660 --> 00:00:31.080 but more than tech for tech itself, we'll address deeper questions. Is disciple making possible 00:00:31.080 --> 00:00:36.840 digitally? How should we approach the digital mission field? Can a biblically grounded church 00:00:36.840 --> 00:00:43.000 operate in digital space? Oh, and where does the metaverse fit into all this? Whether you're a big 00:00:43.000 --> 00:00:48.740 or small church, an established church or a startup church plant, the Church Digital's goal is to help 00:00:48.740 --> 00:00:56.000 churches like yours learn to be a multiplying church digitally and physically. Our heart that 00:00:56.000 --> 00:01:01.180 churches like yours will discover a newfound focus on disciple making that will revolutionize your 00:01:01.180 --> 00:01:07.540 church. And now here's your host, Jeff Reed. All right. Hey, welcome to the Church Digital 00:01:07.540 --> 00:01:14.260 Podcast. It's Jeff Reed here once again. Great being here doing this podcast. Hey, listen, you know, 00:01:14.300 --> 00:01:18.460 I don't put a lot of commercials up here at the beginning of this stuff, but if you've not checked 00:01:18.460 --> 00:01:24.880 out, you digital pastor, you digital planter, you innovator, you person who's doing digital ministry 00:01:24.880 --> 00:01:29.360 and is probably frustrated because they feel like no one on their staff understands them. Yeah, 00:01:29.380 --> 00:01:34.340 I'm talking to you. Hey, you should check out Digital Church Network. You should come be part of the 00:01:34.340 --> 00:01:40.360 family, the fam that we've developed. We've got an online community set up to help people like you, 00:01:40.360 --> 00:01:47.340 men and women, boys and girls like you. The 20-year-old that has a crazy idea, but cannot convince 00:01:47.340 --> 00:01:54.220 church leadership to listen to that. Yeah, come hang out with us. Let's talk. Let's encourage you 00:01:54.220 --> 00:02:00.420 and help you figure out how to navigate through this. It's a free online community. It's literally at 00:02:00.420 --> 00:02:11.200 digitalchurch.network slash join fam, digitalchurch.network slash join, J-O-I-N, fam, F-A-M. 00:02:11.300 --> 00:02:16.780 Hey, you know what? We'll put the link in the show notes. And that was a 45-second commercial, 00:02:17.200 --> 00:02:20.780 and we're going to call it done. You know, it's interesting. We were talking off air. 00:02:21.200 --> 00:02:30.140 I get a lot of requests. I get a lot of calls. I talk to a lot of churches. And there's several 00:02:30.140 --> 00:02:37.020 questions that I get that I don't really have a good answer to. And so honestly, the question that, 00:02:37.340 --> 00:02:41.900 which is when I saw your book was coming out, Fresh Expressions on Rural Churches, I'm like, 00:02:42.260 --> 00:02:48.060 whoa, Michael, the guy who deals with fresh expressions, the guy that understands digital 00:02:48.060 --> 00:02:52.680 and metaverse. He's writing a book on that. I want to talk to him about what digital looks like 00:02:52.680 --> 00:02:57.360 in rural, because I get people asking me, and I don't have a solid answer. And so like, that's the 00:02:57.360 --> 00:03:01.800 heart where I want to go with this podcast. But maybe even just to kick it off here, why don't you 00:03:01.800 --> 00:03:06.340 talk a little bit about you? Introduce yourself to the audience here at the podcast. Talk about the 00:03:06.340 --> 00:03:11.120 book, why you wrote it, kind of with the heart behind that, and give us the life update. 00:03:11.120 --> 00:03:19.060 Sure. So I'm a United Methodist clergy person, and I've served rural congregations in my whole 00:03:19.060 --> 00:03:28.360 ministry. The first church I was sent to was La Calusa, Florida, which if you ever read Marjorie 00:03:28.360 --> 00:03:35.300 Kennan Rawlings, The Yearling, she wrote that book in a cabin or in that area around La Calusa there. 00:03:36.000 --> 00:03:42.580 Middle of nowhere, no post office, no Walmart, no nothing, 12 people in the congregation, little 00:03:42.580 --> 00:03:56.620 white, kind of idyllic congregation building out in the middle of a swamp area. And so I've 00:03:56.620 --> 00:04:03.640 served several rural congregations since then, up until my current place, and always just saw the Holy Spirit 00:04:03.640 --> 00:04:11.220 do amazing creative ministry in those areas. And many times I've included a digital component. 00:04:12.780 --> 00:04:18.720 And if I could just say quickly about Fresh Expressions, then maybe back into the rural piece 00:04:18.720 --> 00:04:25.100 of it. Fresh Expressions is about being church with people that don't go to church, connecting 00:04:25.100 --> 00:04:32.340 with people that, you know, we use those terms, nuns, no religious affiliation, duns, those ones, 00:04:32.340 --> 00:04:37.580 bad Christians, helping the good people, people who've been harmed by the church. And so we're 00:04:37.580 --> 00:04:42.600 realizing, you know, a vast majority of the population is not going to come to an inherited 00:04:42.600 --> 00:04:46.540 congregation on a Sunday morning, no matter how good you do it, no matter how good the coffee 00:04:46.540 --> 00:04:52.100 is or the worship band or whatever. And so we're kind of going out and creating these new Christian 00:04:52.100 --> 00:05:02.360 communities in the daily spaces, rhythms where people do life. And so rural spaces, actually, 00:05:02.360 --> 00:05:11.400 just a quick little like biblical piece on this, but God's saving activity, whenever God launches 00:05:11.400 --> 00:05:19.100 something big, he always starts in the wilderness. Like he sent Abraham out into the wilderness, right? He called 00:05:19.100 --> 00:05:29.160 Moses in a burning bush in the wilderness to go back to Egypt, right? Jesus was a rural person. He grew up in a 00:05:29.160 --> 00:05:36.400 little Nazareth, a little hole in the wall town that was in the middle of nowhere, right? And it's there 00:05:36.400 --> 00:05:42.740 that kind of the ministry and then in Galilee, that most of his ministry took place. So God does big things 00:05:42.740 --> 00:05:51.480 in the wilderness. And in the United States context, the rural church has been one of the few like 00:05:51.480 --> 00:05:59.200 permanent stakeholders in rural communities. The, the, the United States, these kind of crazy 00:05:59.200 --> 00:06:05.600 missionaries, you know, Methodists, Baptists, these really kind of subvergent 00:06:05.600 --> 00:06:15.800 kinds of church planters were just going all over the place, leaving this new constellation of new 00:06:15.800 --> 00:06:22.460 Christian communities. And, and like Methodists specifically and many others, they actually had 00:06:22.460 --> 00:06:28.740 a rural strategy. Like Francis Asbury said, I want to channel resources from the circumference to the 00:06:28.740 --> 00:06:34.920 edge. And so he was going around doing these camp meetings and going in rural spaces and just kind 00:06:34.920 --> 00:06:39.720 of cultivating these new Christian communities all over the place. Very much like what, what we kind 00:06:39.720 --> 00:06:47.580 of do with, with fresh expressions of church. Um, and so the rural church really has, um, uh, a place 00:06:47.580 --> 00:06:56.600 that can bring vitality, uh, to rural spaces in an amazing way. Um, so the rural congregation has 00:06:56.600 --> 00:07:02.980 assets. And I think a lot of people, they, they talk about rural church, like it's just like a 00:07:02.980 --> 00:07:07.800 demotion or if you're a pastor, he gets into a rural church, you're like, you didn't do something 00:07:07.800 --> 00:07:14.620 right. Or maybe you're fresh out of seminary or a retired person usually. Um, and, and so the rural 00:07:14.620 --> 00:07:21.320 church feels like it's this like thorn bush in the foot of progress and it gets dismissed and forgotten. 00:07:22.180 --> 00:07:29.500 Um, but God is doing incredible, amazing things in rural contexts all over the world. And so the 00:07:29.500 --> 00:07:36.160 book, we wanted to highlight those stories, um, and, and show diversity across the country of people 00:07:36.160 --> 00:07:41.740 doing really cool and innovative ministry in rural spaces and kind of provide a theology and like a 00:07:41.740 --> 00:07:48.300 framework for how to go about doing it. Um, and just on the, on the internet piece, on the, um, 00:07:48.300 --> 00:07:53.940 digital forms of church that can take, like, the other thing is we stereotype rural and we think, 00:07:54.160 --> 00:07:59.400 Oh, rural all looks like this. And we have this image of rural, whatever back country people or 00:07:59.400 --> 00:08:06.660 whatever. Um, actually rural communities are incredibly diverse. And so if you know, 00:08:06.660 --> 00:08:14.880 one rural community, you know, one rural community, um, like Metamora, Ohio is a very different kind of 00:08:14.880 --> 00:08:23.100 rural than Wildwood, Florida, um, or, or where Jeff went mud in, uh, in Ocala, right. Um, those are 00:08:23.100 --> 00:08:30.000 very different kinds of rurals and they have, um, you know, very different ecosystems that support life. 00:08:30.000 --> 00:08:36.160 And one of the things that the rural church can do is create like a place economy that, that has a 00:08:36.160 --> 00:08:43.940 kingdom vision of like God's shalom, uh, wellness to the wholeness of a place. Um, and so a rural 00:08:43.940 --> 00:08:49.440 church can be the place where people have different political perspectives. It's the one place like they 00:08:49.440 --> 00:08:55.100 come together each week. The rural church can have the one like third place in a community. It's really 00:08:55.100 --> 00:09:01.040 the only kind of community center sometimes for miles where people can come together to do rituals and 00:09:01.040 --> 00:09:06.300 kind of things like that. So there's really so many assets and on the, on the digital piece, it can be 00:09:06.300 --> 00:09:11.460 churches that are doing like phone. Uh, I've seen rural congregations doing really creative things with 00:09:11.460 --> 00:09:17.980 like a phone, uh, ministry, like they're joining and having worship by phone. Um, I've seen rural 00:09:17.980 --> 00:09:27.680 churches that expand their ministry like, uh, massively like across whole regions by doing really creative things 00:09:27.680 --> 00:09:34.980 online and, and doing what usually big churches can't do, which can tend to be like more kind of the big show 00:09:34.980 --> 00:09:41.780 and the worship band and all those things. And it's, it's more generic in that sense, but rurals can, uh, rural 00:09:41.780 --> 00:09:49.440 congregations can really do creative and intimate, like talk to people experiencing isolation and create 00:09:49.440 --> 00:09:57.440 things specifically for people, um, and online spaces that could be more challenging for, for bigger 00:09:57.440 --> 00:10:01.380 churches. But yeah, sorry, that's a lot. No, no, no. We don't, we don't, we don't talk a lot about 00:10:01.380 --> 00:10:05.500 numbers. Let me, let me ask this. And so like, um, I'm asking, I'm going to ask this question on numbers 00:10:05.500 --> 00:10:11.720 just to maybe get, and stereotypes, not a right, right word, but just to get a grasp on like 00:10:11.720 --> 00:10:18.540 definitively what a rural church is or, or how it is. And yes, everything's different. There's a lot 00:10:18.540 --> 00:10:25.080 of contextualization, I'm sure. But you know, I hear looking at us stats that only 8% of people in 00:10:25.080 --> 00:10:31.700 America that attend church, uh, attended church over a thousand people. And so it's by far, it's smaller. 00:10:31.700 --> 00:10:37.860 I, you know, I pre COVID, I think this, the average church in America was 78 or 82 people. Last time I 00:10:37.860 --> 00:10:44.880 actually saw a formal stat on that. Um, like when, when we say rural, rural, if I can say the word 00:10:44.880 --> 00:10:50.240 correctly, you know, it seems to me like that would be like a, a, say smaller, um, you know, a lot of 00:10:50.240 --> 00:10:56.800 times urban, we look at church plants, like I'm at a church plant. We're got 120, 150. And so it's a 00:10:56.800 --> 00:11:04.660 much more intimate, relational community gathering. Um, are these words that act adequately describe 00:11:04.660 --> 00:11:11.120 the rural experience as well? Intimate, smaller, relational, like, are these the ones of a rural 00:11:11.120 --> 00:11:11.460 church? 00:11:11.800 --> 00:11:16.160 Yeah, I think so. And the vast majority of congregations, you know, like you said, it's a 00:11:16.160 --> 00:11:20.660 very small percent of the population that actually is in these, these really, you know, mega sized 00:11:20.660 --> 00:11:27.820 churches. The vast majority of congregations are smaller, midsize, and a lot of them rural. Um, 00:11:27.820 --> 00:11:33.340 like I was sharing Francis Asbury with his whole strategy. Um, they were, they were barnstorming 00:11:33.340 --> 00:11:39.460 the back country, man. They were, they were like the urban centers had more emphasis on educated 00:11:39.460 --> 00:11:46.260 clergy and like buildings and such. And, um, these more like insurgent forms of Christianity that 00:11:46.260 --> 00:11:52.320 were spreading all over rural spaces were smaller, more intimate. Um, but where, where they planted 00:11:52.320 --> 00:11:58.680 churches, kind of like community sprung up around the, the churches. So like, have you ever been 00:11:58.680 --> 00:12:03.100 through a rural space and you see like five, like there's nothing out there, but there's five churches 00:12:03.100 --> 00:12:08.280 maybe. Um, and that's cause that they were kind of just spreading that all over the place. So those 00:12:08.280 --> 00:12:11.940 are everywhere. They're, they're all over the United States, those rural congregations. 00:12:11.940 --> 00:12:17.440 It would, it would seem to me there's an opportunity and maybe this is just me being too aggressive. And 00:12:17.440 --> 00:12:25.340 so I'm willing to be told, shut up, Jeff. Um, like, uh, a church network, um, like multiplication 00:12:25.340 --> 00:12:31.260 of, of churches. Like, I think there, uh, maybe centralization is too strong and we need to, 00:12:31.260 --> 00:12:37.460 you know, decentralize and focus more on contextualization. But is there, is, is there like 00:12:37.460 --> 00:12:43.760 rural networks of, of churches? Do they collaborate and work together on this? Is anybody trying that? 00:12:43.760 --> 00:12:49.120 There are, you know, I just think of, uh, the North central district in Florida. Um, and there's 00:12:49.120 --> 00:12:55.200 a rural church network there where the idea is let's, let's connect and resource each other. And, 00:12:55.200 --> 00:12:59.940 um, you know, one of the things you lifted up about the challenge of the rural context can be 00:12:59.940 --> 00:13:06.900 internet, right. And it can be super expensive and not available. One of the really creative 00:13:06.900 --> 00:13:12.420 things I've seen churches do. And I'm thinking of like, uh, Jessica Taylor, who's doing this RV church 00:13:12.420 --> 00:13:18.620 network, which is like literally living in RV incarnationally and RV communities and RV and 00:13:18.620 --> 00:13:24.880 lots more young people and middle-aged people are doing this now. Um, and she's using like a Starlink 00:13:24.880 --> 00:13:32.020 satellite, um, and, and, and use providing internet. Uh, and I've seen rural congregations do this, 00:13:32.020 --> 00:13:37.540 like create a space where people can actually access internet. Um, and people can come like, 00:13:37.540 --> 00:13:43.020 even just sit in the parking lot and go out, go on internet. Cause it, it can be harder in some 00:13:43.020 --> 00:13:49.240 rural context, not all of them. Some of them have just wifi is just fine. But, um, but so yeah, 00:13:49.240 --> 00:13:55.540 providing that and seeing the rural church as a way to like allow, uh, access online and facilitate 00:13:55.540 --> 00:13:59.620 that in the community can actually be a way to kind of create your church, have your church become like 00:13:59.620 --> 00:14:06.100 a hub. Yeah. I mean, what an interesting contact context of, of a hub. Um, you know, it's, it's, 00:14:06.180 --> 00:14:11.180 I'm, I'm trying to, I'm trying to think who I was talking with, but there's, uh, I think it was, 00:14:11.240 --> 00:14:16.920 it was one or two denominations probably over the past year, uh, that was really interested in exploring 00:14:16.920 --> 00:14:23.860 digital, um, because they were wanting to, it's, it's interesting. Like you're, you're, you're, 00:14:23.860 --> 00:14:27.700 you're phrasing, uh, internet's hard to get, like that wasn't a picture that was painted to me, 00:14:27.700 --> 00:14:31.060 but there were, there were several that were wanting several denominations that were wanting 00:14:31.060 --> 00:14:38.400 to explore digital expressions of church and rural, um, even like micro site expressions or micro 00:14:38.400 --> 00:14:45.480 locations where a centralized church would broadcast the services online into homes in the neighboring 00:14:45.480 --> 00:14:52.140 towns and areas and use the online broadcast as a way to even get a footprint to, to start to get a, 00:14:52.140 --> 00:14:59.180 a foothold, uh, within, within the towns or cities. Um, how much of an issue is internet in, 00:14:59.180 --> 00:15:06.980 in, in rural? I know that's a very broad statement like, um, contextualization, but, uh, you know, 00:15:07.020 --> 00:15:11.440 I know, shoot, I live in Miami, Florida. I'm down here in the suburbs and my internet's garbage. 00:15:11.760 --> 00:15:19.100 Uh, so, uh, I, I think everywhere is like, is there, um, is there no access? Is it just limited 00:15:19.100 --> 00:15:27.220 access with only one provider? Um, would a digital expression, um, you know, how, how do you overcome 00:15:27.220 --> 00:15:32.380 maybe some of those challenges, uh, with, uh, internet? Yeah. So I personally have never had a 00:15:32.380 --> 00:15:36.640 challenge with internet in any of the rural churches that I've served. It's always been 00:15:36.640 --> 00:15:43.780 just as shoddy as it is in the city. Um, but I have heard stories and, um, I do a lot of trainings 00:15:43.780 --> 00:15:47.880 with pastors and stuff, trying to help them think about the special expressions idea and how to do 00:15:47.880 --> 00:15:54.560 it from their local context. So, um, that can, you know, maybe that's just, uh, uh, like a way to 00:15:54.560 --> 00:16:00.560 say, you know, we don't really want to do this, but I have heard of places that have had challenges 00:16:00.560 --> 00:16:06.800 with internet access. I think that there's new technologies like satellite accessible internet 00:16:06.800 --> 00:16:12.660 and these things that are readily available that really kind of, you can essentially, I think, 00:16:12.700 --> 00:16:18.380 have internet and essentially any space, but I think maybe that it is harder to access or maybe 00:16:18.380 --> 00:16:24.860 it's the cost that's the challenge. Like it can be $150 or something for a church to add internet 00:16:24.860 --> 00:16:32.980 services. And so they see that as a kind of a barrier. Um, uh, and, and, you know, those are real 00:16:32.980 --> 00:16:39.540 challenges that we have to deal with, but I love your idea about how we're seeing churches use internet 00:16:39.540 --> 00:16:47.520 and online and create and expand their, their reach, um, into places like we got rural congregations 00:16:47.520 --> 00:16:54.040 that have way more people in their online communities and participating in digital forms of church 00:16:54.040 --> 00:16:59.920 than they have in their like Sunday morning, 11 a.m. gathering. So you can think of this as like a 00:16:59.920 --> 00:17:06.580 blended ecology of four different forms of church, the inherited onsite and the online forms kind of 00:17:06.580 --> 00:17:11.900 all living together. And it really gives a rural church a way to expand massively, uh, their, their 00:17:11.900 --> 00:17:19.440 ministries. Culturally within rural, is there, is there an acceptance of technology? Is there, is it, 00:17:19.480 --> 00:17:26.520 is there a fear of technology? Is it, um, irrelevance? Like, um, you know, I mean, social media, 00:17:26.980 --> 00:17:32.400 maybe Facebook, uh, metaverse, virtual reality, you know, some of the bleeding edge stuff, 00:17:32.400 --> 00:17:37.720 like kind of what's the, what's the temperature check for, for technology in general, generally 00:17:37.720 --> 00:17:41.580 speaking, you know, throughout, throughout some of these rural and, and smaller communities. 00:17:42.080 --> 00:17:47.360 Yeah. You know, that's a really contextually, uh, specific answer. Like if you're up in Ohio 00:17:47.360 --> 00:17:53.260 where there's lots of communities that, um, they're still doing like, you know, horse drawn 00:17:53.260 --> 00:17:59.720 buggies and stuff and, and choosing that kind of a, a way of, um, like the Anabaptist kind 00:17:59.720 --> 00:18:05.960 of way of being church. Um, but I think generally overall my experience, and I can't speak for 00:18:05.960 --> 00:18:13.320 everybody, but there's been a, a more of a resistance to utilizing technology in inherited 00:18:13.320 --> 00:18:21.400 rural congregations, um, than you might find in a, in an urban space. Um, like, and it may 00:18:21.400 --> 00:18:27.880 just be like the tradition. One of the beautiful things about rural churches is they carry tradition 00:18:27.880 --> 00:18:33.240 and story for a whole community. Right. And they sing it and they dance it and they enact 00:18:33.240 --> 00:18:39.200 it in their worship. And it's one of the ways that they hold on to like values, history, story. 00:18:39.740 --> 00:18:44.800 Um, and that's really important, but some of that can also create like some resistance to, 00:18:44.800 --> 00:18:49.880 oh, this online, this pastor is talking about doing this online thing with a headset. What's 00:18:49.880 --> 00:18:55.880 going on here? So I have heard some of that, you know, in the churches that I serve. Um, but I 00:18:55.880 --> 00:19:02.120 think it's also maybe more of a generational thing because the churches that in United Methodism 00:19:02.120 --> 00:19:07.320 tend older, chronologically mature. Um, so that could be part of that too. 00:19:07.320 --> 00:19:11.640 You know, I'm, I'm actually going to ask this question a different way because like you, 00:19:11.720 --> 00:19:18.760 you also run living room church VR, like you've done virtual reality ministry. Um, do you, 00:19:19.320 --> 00:19:25.720 have you, when that context, have you interacted with anybody from, from like small town America, 00:19:25.720 --> 00:19:32.760 rural spaces? Uh, like I'm, I'm even wondering what the, what the headset exposure is in some of these, 00:19:32.760 --> 00:19:37.560 like even with the kids at, you know, at the gamer level or the, the user level, what, 00:19:37.560 --> 00:19:39.000 what's been your exposure in that? 00:19:39.000 --> 00:19:41.000 That's a really, really good question. 00:19:41.000 --> 00:19:44.680 I mean, that, that's hard because the avatar, it's hard to really figure out who it is and 00:19:44.680 --> 00:19:49.320 where they are. And I was just curious if you, maybe you had a story or something that popped up. 00:19:49.320 --> 00:19:53.480 Yeah. You know, now that I think about it, cause we open every living room church, uh, 00:19:53.480 --> 00:20:00.040 gathering with the avatars kind of go around and share where they're from. And, um, I mean, 00:20:00.040 --> 00:20:08.680 it, it mostly is people in cities. Um, I'd have to do a little more research thinking about that, 00:20:08.680 --> 00:20:13.080 but yeah, I, I don't, I don't know. That's, um, I might, I might have to start, 00:20:13.080 --> 00:20:17.320 I might have to start asking that question a little more often. Like what's the, what's the 00:20:17.320 --> 00:20:26.040 adoption rate, uh, for, for some of this technology in rural spaces? Is it, um, transferring over 00:20:26.040 --> 00:20:31.720 there? Anyway, conversation, conversation for another day. So like, what is, and we can keep 00:20:31.720 --> 00:20:37.960 talking tech with, with, uh, digital would love to, but like when you wrote this book, fresh expressions 00:20:37.960 --> 00:20:44.040 in digital, like what are examples of, of fresh? I just, I love fresh expressions, unique expressions. 00:20:44.520 --> 00:20:50.760 Like we've been on a kick the past couple months, um, here at the church digital, um, featuring unique 00:20:50.760 --> 00:20:58.680 expressions of church, um, bar churches, um, uh, you know, gamer churches, biker churches, like it's 00:20:58.680 --> 00:21:03.480 been. And so rural is going to be unique, but I'm just kind of curious. What's a, what's a fresh 00:21:03.480 --> 00:21:09.400 expression in a rural context? What does that look like? Yeah. So a couple examples, um, like in 00:21:09.400 --> 00:21:16.520 Loch Lusa where we, we had 12 people and worship our first Sunday and, uh, literally, uh, the population 00:21:16.520 --> 00:21:25.960 of Loch Lusa is like 50 people, like the whole, the whole, uh, Loch Lusa. So we started connecting 00:21:25.960 --> 00:21:31.800 with, um, uh, the next town up Hawthorne, Florida, and there's a diner there. It was like kind of a hub 00:21:31.800 --> 00:21:36.920 for the community. People were coming from all over to the diner on Sundays. We started connecting with the 00:21:36.920 --> 00:21:45.080 Diane's diner, um, host servers and waitresses and waiters and just making those relationships. 00:21:45.080 --> 00:21:50.040 And, and one day I popped the question. I was like, Hey, uh, why don't y'all ever come to church? 00:21:50.040 --> 00:21:55.000 You know, we'd build this relationship over time. And they're like, um, cause we're here taking care 00:21:55.000 --> 00:21:59.640 of you Christians on Sundays, dummy. We couldn't come to church if we wanted to. Right. So we said, 00:21:59.640 --> 00:22:04.600 well, what if we created a church for you? Like, where would it meet? What would it look like? 00:22:04.600 --> 00:22:12.440 Um, so we started this little fresh expression in the Diane's diner around barbecue and, um, uh, 00:22:12.440 --> 00:22:19.080 good, good, good Southern barbecue and sharing a Jesus story and having a time of prayer and, uh, 00:22:19.080 --> 00:22:25.240 just really started connecting that community. And, and by in one year we had like a hundred people, 00:22:25.240 --> 00:22:29.880 this is a church that had 12 people worship, right? That grew to a hundred people by just 00:22:29.880 --> 00:22:36.280 like expanding out and starting church for people where they actually were at a time that worked for 00:22:36.280 --> 00:22:40.520 them and a place that worked for them around something they actually like to do, like eat barbecue. 00:22:40.520 --> 00:22:48.520 Um, and so I think of the, the diversity of, of rural fresh expressions we've seen like Tyler Kleeberger 00:22:48.520 --> 00:22:56.600 in Metamora, Ohio. Uh, and he, he had black mold in his, in his, uh, existing church. 00:22:56.600 --> 00:23:01.640 And so it was the gift of desperation, right? And the church had to close. And so they started having 00:23:01.640 --> 00:23:07.400 these barn parties, um, and just meeting in a barn and having conversations about Jesus and prayer. 00:23:07.400 --> 00:23:13.000 And, um, the congregation started to grow through the barn parties. And then they built a building 00:23:13.000 --> 00:23:18.840 that's essentially a barn. Uh, but it's like a cool looking, like modern barn. But so they have a 00:23:18.840 --> 00:23:23.800 farmer's market in there. They have a couple of times a week where they, uh, people get to come in and sell 00:23:23.800 --> 00:23:31.240 their stuff in there. Uh, they have, uh, beer nights and food and somebody cooks and the community comes 00:23:31.240 --> 00:23:37.480 in and has all these meals. Um, they also like do farming and, and raising, you know, crops and all 00:23:37.480 --> 00:23:43.720 those things. So, you know, they're really like owning the rural space and, and turning the church 00:23:43.720 --> 00:23:51.160 into like a center of the community. Um, and I just, uh, you know, I could go on like, uh, I know a pastor 00:23:51.160 --> 00:23:57.640 doing, uh, equine therapy in a rural space where they have lots of horses and, uh, her name's Stacy 00:23:57.640 --> 00:24:05.320 Spence. And, um, they're, they've actually started a church around horses and equine therapy and, 00:24:05.720 --> 00:24:12.440 and doing that together. Um, and, you know, I've seen churches in fishing holes, uh, in, in rural 00:24:12.440 --> 00:24:19.960 spaces and churches in, um, you know, around, uh, hunting, uh, where a group of people that like to 00:24:19.960 --> 00:24:24.680 hunt, get together and have a time of prayer and scripture, and then they go hunt, you know, it's, 00:24:24.680 --> 00:24:29.400 it's pretty much as diverse as a rural place can be. These expressions of church are kind of spring, 00:24:29.400 --> 00:24:33.880 springing up out of that diversity. What's the, what's the contextualization 00:24:34.920 --> 00:24:42.680 between, uh, I mean, I'm sure it's a huge jump between, um, you know, uh, urban church role, uh, 00:24:42.680 --> 00:24:49.640 you know, a mega church and, and, and maybe some of these more smaller contexts, but even like city 00:24:49.640 --> 00:24:57.640 to city, um, you know, Northeast rural U S you know, new England rural versus Miami rural versus, 00:24:58.200 --> 00:25:04.280 you know, I don't know, Oregon rural, um, like what, what types of things are, are we looking, 00:25:04.280 --> 00:25:08.360 what nuances, contextualizations are we going to see through some of these changes? 00:25:08.360 --> 00:25:14.440 Yeah. I mean, the diversity that you just described is, is incredible. Um, it could be, 00:25:14.440 --> 00:25:21.640 you know, rural can be a farming community, um, that, that life really rotate, uh, centers around 00:25:21.640 --> 00:25:27.560 production of crops, right. Uh, a rural space can be like, uh, a lake community, 00:25:27.560 --> 00:25:34.120 like Loclusa where the local fishing industry is kind of the, the key, uh, to the economy. 00:25:34.520 --> 00:25:40.920 It can be, um, you know, like in Wildwood, it was once a kind of a hub for a railroad. 00:25:41.560 --> 00:25:47.000 Um, and so a little kind of town sprung up around the railroad and then the railroad moved and, uh, 00:25:47.000 --> 00:25:52.680 the, the economic, uh, situation kind of depressed for a while and people had to find new and creative 00:25:52.680 --> 00:26:01.960 ways, uh, to make a living and, um, that, the, every rural space can have such diversity. It's, 00:26:01.960 --> 00:26:08.360 um, and also, I mean, that there's a racial diversity in, in rural context. People assume 00:26:09.000 --> 00:26:15.640 that there's just maybe one race of people that are rural, that there's a real diversity there as well. 00:26:15.640 --> 00:26:23.000 Um, different races and, uh, how rural communities look, um, in that and the different kind of 00:26:24.040 --> 00:26:30.680 economies that arise out of that. So yeah, contextualization, I think is the key of like 00:26:31.320 --> 00:26:42.200 understanding. Um, I love this word, uh, terroir. So like, um, terroir is, it's, uh, if you taste a coffee or, 00:26:42.200 --> 00:26:50.360 or, or like a chocolate, um, when you, when you taste a wine, um, it has a terroir, a somewhereness. 00:26:50.360 --> 00:26:57.000 The word literally translates somewhereness. It's French. Um, uh, that all these kind of 00:26:57.000 --> 00:27:02.680 environmental factors that come together, like produce a grape or a coffee bean or a chocolate, 00:27:02.680 --> 00:27:09.800 uh, uh, you can taste that, right? You can taste the contextuality. And I think one of the 00:27:09.800 --> 00:27:15.400 really cool things about rural ministry is understanding the terroir, the somewhereness, 00:27:15.400 --> 00:27:21.400 kind of the flavor of a community and helping church kind of spring up contextually, organically 00:27:21.400 --> 00:27:29.080 out of that is really, I think a key rather than just trying to plant, you know, the McDonaldized 00:27:29.080 --> 00:27:33.800 version of the church that looks the same in every context and that building's the same, worship's the 00:27:33.800 --> 00:27:40.520 same, but really helping the, the, the learn, being a learner and a student of your place 00:27:40.520 --> 00:27:44.680 and helping church spring out in a way that's faithful to that place and faithful to the people 00:27:44.680 --> 00:27:45.800 who inhabit that place. 00:27:45.800 --> 00:27:53.960 So interesting. Is there any consistency? Is, is there a centralized thread as we're talking about 00:27:53.960 --> 00:27:59.720 all of these decentralized or contextualized environments? What's, what's the, what's the same? 00:27:59.720 --> 00:28:08.280 I think the consistent thing is like, um, the, the feeling that rural people have of being forgotten, 00:28:08.280 --> 00:28:17.880 neglected, unimportant. Um, and that creates a kind of a, a culture of resistance, right? And, um, 00:28:19.160 --> 00:28:27.960 I think that, um, there's a, there's a, there's a similar kind of mindset in many rural places. 00:28:27.960 --> 00:28:33.240 And I don't want to just make a huge universal statement about all rural places, but that, 00:28:34.040 --> 00:28:42.040 you know, there's a tendency for, for the world and all the centers of power to be urban and urban 00:28:42.040 --> 00:28:48.600 centers of learning and all those things. And so rural people can feel forgotten. Um, and I try to work 00:28:48.600 --> 00:28:54.920 with that like subversive spirit in a rural context and, and the way that rural people hold onto their 00:28:54.920 --> 00:29:03.400 faith and values, um, in community, um, and, and belonging. Um, and sometimes you don't find that so 00:29:03.400 --> 00:29:10.040 much in, in urban places, but rural people really value, uh, togetherness and, and I don't want to 00:29:10.040 --> 00:29:17.160 like idealize rural. It has all its own challenges and stuff. And depending on these different stereotypes 00:29:17.160 --> 00:29:21.560 that you get, it's like, Oh, every rural place is, you know, people smoking crystal meth and, 00:29:21.560 --> 00:29:28.440 you know, struggling with drug addiction or, you know, backwards people. But I find highly spiritual, 00:29:28.440 --> 00:29:36.760 highly educated, highly just sensitive people who love God, um, inhabit rural places. And, and, 00:29:36.760 --> 00:29:43.640 and they're really a gift. I think rural places are a gift to the world, maybe to remind us to slow down a 00:29:43.640 --> 00:29:48.280 little bit, take Sabbath, uh, connect with the God of the wilderness, you know, 00:29:48.280 --> 00:29:56.940 go get lost somewhere. That that's interesting. Um, is, is that the, what, what, what's the biggest issue 00:29:56.940 --> 00:30:04.000 facing the, the rural church today? I mean, uh, urban, you know, there's, there's political mess, 00:30:04.140 --> 00:30:12.320 there's, um, there's racial tensions. Like, are, are, are we seeing kind of the, the typical mess that we 00:30:12.320 --> 00:30:17.600 would see in urban centers? Are we seeing that in rural? Are they dealing with a completely different 00:30:17.600 --> 00:30:22.320 set of problems? Um, are they trying to get everybody back to the building and nobody's going 00:30:22.320 --> 00:30:27.100 back to the building? Like what's, what's, what's the thing that keep, that's keeping the rural pastor 00:30:27.100 --> 00:30:27.720 up at night? 00:30:27.720 --> 00:30:35.180 Great, great question. And, um, I think the greatest challenge in rural communities is, um, 00:30:35.420 --> 00:30:44.300 kind of a lack of imagination. And, um, sometimes those beautiful things that are so important, 00:30:44.400 --> 00:30:51.380 like carrying on those traditions and having a really kind of, uh, predetermined idea about what 00:30:51.380 --> 00:30:55.880 church can be and how it can happen and what's supposed to happen in it can also be a limitation. 00:30:56.960 --> 00:31:05.060 And, um, there's like an imaginative gridlock, uh, that takes place where if we have this really 00:31:05.060 --> 00:31:10.620 tight definition of what church is, when it can happen, where it can happen. And we don't have 00:31:10.620 --> 00:31:16.640 an imagination of, you know, a Tyler Kleeberger who says, let's just have barn parties and that could 00:31:16.640 --> 00:31:23.400 be church. Right. Or, uh, you know, uh, Stacy Spence who says, well, there's a lot of horses out here 00:31:23.400 --> 00:31:30.100 in horse therapy. Why don't we create churches around that? Um, so rural, the, the decline and 00:31:30.100 --> 00:31:36.080 the loss of like members is I think more pronounced in rural. So like if you have a congregation of 20 00:31:36.080 --> 00:31:41.820 people and, you know, I think the statistics that came is like one in three people returned from COVID 00:31:41.820 --> 00:31:47.880 or whatever pandemic, there's some really hard statistics out there. That's a lot for a rural 00:31:47.880 --> 00:31:55.560 congregation. Like just a couple people missing, right. Can really change it. So that's, that's a 00:31:55.560 --> 00:32:02.000 huge challenge in that decline. We get stuck in maintenance and, and, and, and we just kind of keep 00:32:02.000 --> 00:32:08.460 doing the same stuff rather than an imagination for, Oh, what, what have we went out and re-imagined what 00:32:08.460 --> 00:32:14.020 church can be in this rural place and re-imagine ways to connect with each other and share the gospel 00:32:14.020 --> 00:32:19.100 and be in relationship together. Um, I think that's actually the greatest challenge. It's not 00:32:19.100 --> 00:32:23.600 that the resources aren't there, that the people aren't there, that the assets aren't there in a 00:32:23.600 --> 00:32:29.640 rural community. Uh, it's, it's the biggest challenge is like catching a new imagination for 00:32:29.640 --> 00:32:35.720 what the church can be. Is it, um, you know what I find in digital, I mean, it's, it's, it's interesting. 00:32:35.840 --> 00:32:41.220 You, one of your books, you wrote missional imagination, like that's, that's, that's one of 00:32:41.220 --> 00:32:47.260 your, your phrases, right? Yeah. Okay. Um, it's, it's, uh, actually we're doing a podcast soon with, uh, 00:32:47.420 --> 00:32:53.220 Patrick, who's the, uh, global director of new thing network. And he, and he uses the phrase 00:32:53.220 --> 00:32:57.600 missional imagination too. I'm not choosing which one of you said it first. And if neither of you 00:32:57.600 --> 00:33:01.560 trademarked it, then I will, and then I'll own the word and you all can, you know, take it from me. 00:33:02.180 --> 00:33:07.440 But, um, you know, and so like, I just, I, I've heard that missional imagination phrase and it's 00:33:07.440 --> 00:33:12.600 really, it's been resonating with me. Like I've even started to, to bake it in. And I, I did a, 00:33:12.600 --> 00:33:17.520 I put a talk on YouTube talking about, you know, missional imagination, tying it into async, 00:33:17.720 --> 00:33:23.620 asynchronous communities, um, conversation for another day. But what, where I want to get with this is that 00:33:23.620 --> 00:33:31.200 when, when, when I started having conversations with digital and digital planters or people that 00:33:31.200 --> 00:33:38.160 were interested, like the first 200 people I had conversations with, there was no, like nobody was 00:33:38.160 --> 00:33:43.880 doing this. And the first 200 people, I basically had to give them permission to do what they had in 00:33:43.880 --> 00:33:50.380 their head. Um, because nobody in their life was giving them permission. The, the pastor of the church 00:33:50.380 --> 00:33:56.860 they went to thought it was heresy. The denomination didn't care one bit, even their spouse and their 00:33:56.860 --> 00:34:03.620 friends, just because they had never seen that idea happen really weren't supportive of it because 00:34:03.620 --> 00:34:11.260 there was no, um, there was no paradigm. There was no, um, model. There was, there was nobody who 00:34:11.260 --> 00:34:15.840 was actually doing it. And now, you know, now there's a couple of hundred successful digital churches, 00:34:15.840 --> 00:34:22.040 churches that follow somewhat of a biblical footprint. Now, now when somebody calls me up and says, Hey, 00:34:22.120 --> 00:34:26.940 you know, I've, I've got this crazy idea. Um, I go, Oh yeah. Hey, some, actually I know a friend of 00:34:26.940 --> 00:34:31.140 mine that's doing something similar to that. Let me introduce you. And so it's, it's a, it's a little 00:34:31.140 --> 00:34:39.120 more accepted. They may still need permission, but I'm curious, like, are there, are, is it lack of 00:34:39.120 --> 00:34:46.460 ideas or is it a lack of approval? Is it like, what, where's the, where's the bottleneck in the rural 00:34:46.460 --> 00:34:51.380 context? Are there, are there people that have ideas and just don't know where to go to execute 00:34:51.380 --> 00:34:57.580 them? Are there, are there dreams and just, that's where the dreams go to die? Is it there's, there's, 00:34:57.660 --> 00:35:02.920 you know, without vision, people perish. And so there's no vision to do something different. Like, 00:35:02.980 --> 00:35:07.600 what's, what's your take on that? Yeah. And, you know, Jeff, you've been on the front end of like 00:35:07.600 --> 00:35:12.320 the digital church movement, you know, from the beginning. So you've seen this all kind of transform 00:35:12.320 --> 00:35:19.320 and spring up, but I would say like the biggest disappointment for me has been, um, like my 00:35:19.320 --> 00:35:29.140 inherited folks, uh, they just were not connecting with our digital stuff at all really. Um, and we 00:35:29.140 --> 00:35:34.360 created this amazing online campus, 1400 people. We were connecting with people all over the country, 00:35:34.500 --> 00:35:40.680 joining new people into it. But what I was hearing from my inherited church folks, and again, you know, 00:35:40.680 --> 00:35:45.280 this is generational too, and there's all kinds of things. It's not just rural, it's generational, 00:35:45.280 --> 00:35:54.060 it's cultural, but they just weren't connecting like I was in a digital space. Like when I'm with my 00:35:54.060 --> 00:35:59.580 homies in digital, digital, like we're having church, we're going deep. I feel the Holy Spirit. 00:36:00.120 --> 00:36:07.380 I'm feeling like God is present and Lord of the metaverse, uh, you know, um, and, and those 00:36:07.380 --> 00:36:14.380 relationships are deep and they're real. And it just, my inherited church folks were like, it's just 00:36:14.380 --> 00:36:19.820 not, it's just not real for us. It's just not church for us. It's just like, we're, we're excited. 00:36:19.980 --> 00:36:24.120 You're doing it. We're not trying to stop you, but we're not really like, can you get us back in the 00:36:24.120 --> 00:36:31.320 building and get the handles out? And so I had to learn like to balance this kind of like caring for 00:36:31.320 --> 00:36:35.820 them, nurturing them because they've, they've given their parish presence, give service witness 00:36:35.820 --> 00:36:43.840 to the church. Right. But not letting that confine the, all the possibilities with, with digitality and, 00:36:43.840 --> 00:36:49.660 and cultivating church and the metaverse. Um, so I just kind of got a small team of people 00:36:49.660 --> 00:36:56.340 and we just started experimenting and doing it. Um, but I think it's pastors can really get stuck in 00:36:56.340 --> 00:37:03.500 that like, Oh, it's not connecting with my people. So what's the, you know, and then I hate to say 00:37:03.500 --> 00:37:09.400 this even, but people just have such this limited view of online church. Like anybody I talk to online 00:37:09.400 --> 00:37:13.380 church, they're like, yeah, I'm doing online church. And what they're really talking about is 00:37:13.380 --> 00:37:20.320 they're streaming their worship services. Yeah. And I'm like, okay, you know, maybe a new form of 00:37:20.320 --> 00:37:25.480 digital colonialism there. Like we're streaming into a place. We've not been invited speaking a 00:37:25.480 --> 00:37:32.060 language. We only speak, um, and, and we need to stream worship and there's a proper time and place 00:37:32.060 --> 00:37:36.420 and all that. And I think it's more probably for people that are already part of the church than 00:37:36.420 --> 00:37:43.000 like a missional thing, but that's not online church, right? There's so much more to what online 00:37:43.000 --> 00:37:48.660 churches, online churches, relationships and discipleship and worship and spending time together 00:37:48.660 --> 00:37:57.680 in digitality. Um, and, and so that's another barrier I think that's there, but you know, that's, 00:37:57.740 --> 00:38:02.900 that's hard when, when you love something and you put a lot of energy into it and it just feels like 00:38:02.900 --> 00:38:07.800 your inherited congregation is not really connecting with it. 00:38:07.800 --> 00:38:11.480 I, I feel it's funny. Like I've had this conversation with several other 00:38:11.480 --> 00:38:18.260 digital planters and, and, and metaverse guys and gals. Almost, I feel like we need a new word. 00:38:18.980 --> 00:38:24.360 Um, you know, I, I think church and, and it is, forgive me if I sound sacrilegious. I'm, 00:38:24.360 --> 00:38:30.760 I'm not at all trying to be sacrilegious in this moment, but the word church almost has so much 00:38:30.760 --> 00:38:36.760 extra biblical outside of what scripture is, um, complications attached to it at this point in 00:38:36.760 --> 00:38:43.720 2022. I'm not sure we can really resurrect that word to at least here in America to align it to 00:38:43.720 --> 00:38:50.380 what we, we want it to, you know? And so it's, it's, it's really, it's been the struggle and, um, 00:38:50.380 --> 00:38:57.560 it's interesting, even church online, um, digital, uh, I had the, the honor, I'm not going to drop 00:38:57.560 --> 00:39:02.340 names. I'm actually trying to get them to do a podcast with me, but there, there's a, um, uh, 00:39:02.340 --> 00:39:09.340 another nationally published author that, uh, has written a, a very well-known book and, uh, 00:39:09.340 --> 00:39:14.120 had the honor of meeting with them and, uh, and I want him to get them on the podcast because the dude 00:39:14.120 --> 00:39:23.140 hates digital, like in this very popular Christian book, he is very outspoken on how he hates social 00:39:23.140 --> 00:39:29.680 media, toxic culture, and just rattles off on, on all this stuff. And, and I have this honor, 00:39:29.780 --> 00:39:34.680 I have the pleasure of meeting him. He's a very relational focused guy. And I had the honor of, 00:39:34.680 --> 00:39:39.700 of meeting him on, on, on a, on a Friday night, shook his hand and said, Hey, I'm a digital guy. 00:39:39.700 --> 00:39:44.780 And he gives me the side eye like immediately. And I was like, no, no, no. I actually agree with 00:39:44.780 --> 00:39:50.040 everything you said in your book. Um, when I say digital, I'm actually more like the relational 00:39:50.040 --> 00:39:55.720 stuff that you talk about. I'm more of a micro church in digital space than I am what you are 00:39:55.720 --> 00:40:00.540 now assuming of me in digital. And that just opened up, you know, for him, it was a completely 00:40:00.540 --> 00:40:07.380 separate conversation because he just had this negative connotation because dude hates Facebook. 00:40:07.380 --> 00:40:12.040 And let's be honest, who among us does not hate, we all hate Facebook. It's, it's, it's, 00:40:12.040 --> 00:40:16.680 it's like the, um, it's, it's, it's the lesser of evils. It's like, you got to use it to, 00:40:16.800 --> 00:40:20.440 to do the ministry, but at the same time, you're, you know, you're, you're, you're skeptical. And so 00:40:20.440 --> 00:40:26.660 like there's not, he's not lying. He's not, none of this is wrong, but there's just an opportunity 00:40:26.660 --> 00:40:32.820 to do some different stuff with it. And, uh, you know, I could see in rural context, I could see 00:40:32.820 --> 00:40:38.020 that being a battle. You have to constantly, because of some of the relationships with some 00:40:38.020 --> 00:40:44.420 of the smaller churches, um, with smaller churches and more relational context, just constantly, 00:40:44.420 --> 00:40:46.140 I would imagine battling that battle. 00:40:46.560 --> 00:40:51.940 Yeah. Yeah. And, and I mean, there, there's a lot there that's so true, the toxicity of all that. 00:40:52.420 --> 00:40:58.260 And like people think about content creation as online church and all of that. And I think you 00:40:58.260 --> 00:41:03.080 and I are talking about, we're having a whole different conversation that I believe digitality, 00:41:03.160 --> 00:41:12.020 like distance contact, um, across, you know, through, through flows, um, create a new kind of 00:41:12.020 --> 00:41:18.820 space. Um, like just like a city creates a space and it facilitates relationship and you bump into 00:41:18.820 --> 00:41:26.980 people, the online space that we inhabit kind of is its own place where relationships can form and 00:41:26.980 --> 00:41:37.300 community conform and, um, trying to help have people get away from this, you know, just online as, you 00:41:37.300 --> 00:41:43.460 know, content production and streaming stuff and all that. Um, it's really, really hard and challenging. 00:41:43.700 --> 00:41:48.340 I would, I'll, I'll, I'll be honest. I go to, like I said, I go to a church plant where 125 00:41:49.060 --> 00:41:53.620 people at this point probably been open. I mean, we haven't even hit a one year anniversary yet in, 00:41:53.620 --> 00:41:58.980 in Miami, Miami is where church plants go to die traditionally, but, but love, love my church. 00:41:58.980 --> 00:42:04.100 We're not, we're not broadcasting our church services online, you know? Um, yeah, I actually, 00:42:04.100 --> 00:42:08.340 I had heard, I've heard a couple of people say this, but I told my pastor, I was like, if you really 00:42:08.340 --> 00:42:15.700 express, if you really respect the live environment, don't put it online. Um, like respect what you're 00:42:15.700 --> 00:42:22.580 doing enough to not cheapen up by putting it online, do something else online. And, um, and that has 00:42:22.580 --> 00:42:27.460 really, that's resonated within our, within our church. And we're, you know, we're trying to figure 00:42:27.460 --> 00:42:32.820 out what that other thing is and, and, and, and regularly having conversations about how to adjust 00:42:32.820 --> 00:42:40.180 that. And, um, but it's, it's, uh, you know, I know the resources of, of a rural church, you know, 00:42:40.180 --> 00:42:47.540 are, are nothing compared to a, uh, a mega mega urban church, which is, you know, where most of my 00:42:47.540 --> 00:42:54.020 background's from. Uh, and so the little resources that you have, and you know, it's funny, you, you, 00:42:54.020 --> 00:42:58.020 you actually said, Michael, you were like, Hey, yeah, just, uh, I mean, you got to broadcast the 00:42:58.020 --> 00:43:03.620 church service. And in my mind, I'm like, do you really, do you really have to like, is it possible 00:43:03.620 --> 00:43:09.780 to not broadcast the church service? And, but, but do something else, not the church service with, 00:43:09.780 --> 00:43:14.180 with, with that resource in that time, because whatever the other thing is, I got to believe 00:43:14.180 --> 00:43:19.300 is going to be more effective for the kingdom or could be more effective for the kingdom. Uh, 00:43:19.300 --> 00:43:24.180 then, then that broadcasting of that church service would be your, your digital imperialism. 00:43:24.180 --> 00:43:27.620 I'm going to borrow that too. Like that, that I'll, I'll follow that away. That was, 00:43:27.620 --> 00:43:31.620 that was good. No, that was so good. And I'm a hundred percent in agreement. That's why we don't 00:43:31.620 --> 00:43:37.380 stream our worship services in our, on our Sunday morning gatherings, because you can't actually be 00:43:37.380 --> 00:43:43.460 present with two groups of people in two different spaces at one time. It's neurochemically, physically, 00:43:43.460 --> 00:43:50.100 in every other way impossible. So we create online church for online people and online spaces, 00:43:50.100 --> 00:43:57.220 and we create onsite church for onsite people. And I love what you said about honoring and giving your full 00:43:57.220 --> 00:44:05.300 presence to the people in whichever space you're in. Right. And I'm just trying to be cautious when 00:44:05.300 --> 00:44:09.780 I talk about this. Cause I know there's so many people that are just bought into the streaming, 00:44:09.780 --> 00:44:16.420 their online services kind of thing. But, and, and I think it, it's got its place and I'm sure God uses 00:44:16.420 --> 00:44:21.380 it in the kingdom and all of that, but you know, we don't do it because we're exactly what you just said. 00:44:21.380 --> 00:44:28.020 Like it's a very intimate thing that's happening in an online worship community. And there's a very 00:44:28.020 --> 00:44:33.380 intimate thing that's happening in an onsite community that, you know, honoring that and being 00:44:33.380 --> 00:44:38.820 present with the people, I think is what the Lord calls us to do. You know, I think the first guy that 00:44:38.820 --> 00:44:45.220 I heard say that was Erwin McManus. So let me give, give him credit. If you, if you respect your, 00:44:45.220 --> 00:44:51.540 your, uh, your live experience so much, don't broadcast, don't cheapen it by broadcasting it 00:44:51.540 --> 00:44:57.860 online. Um, and that's, I mean, that, that's, that's powerful. And so, but you got to do something 00:44:57.860 --> 00:45:03.700 else that that's not an excuse to become a Luddite and like just ignore all of technology. Nobody's 00:45:03.700 --> 00:45:07.940 saying that it was funny. I was actually, I was writing, I was, I'm just finishing. I'll say this 00:45:07.940 --> 00:45:12.260 on the podcast. It's publishing soon. I was just wrapping up a book that I'm writing for leadership 00:45:12.260 --> 00:45:17.780 network on virtual reality. And, um, if you ever read my writing, especially through leadership 00:45:17.780 --> 00:45:24.820 network, I'm very sarcastic and, uh, kind of like jaded in, in, in, and I'm constantly asking them 00:45:24.820 --> 00:45:29.140 if it's too much and they love it. And it seems like, you know, readers like it. And, uh, and so 00:45:29.140 --> 00:45:34.660 actually, and you'll appreciate this hope, Michael, I was, I was trying to talk about, um, like 00:45:34.660 --> 00:45:39.460 technology phobic people. And I didn't want to use the Luddite reference. Cause I, that was like too much. 00:45:39.700 --> 00:45:45.220 And so I, I totally like was writing this thing based on Quakers and I was taking a shot at Quakers 00:45:45.220 --> 00:45:49.920 and then I was like, but wait, are Quakers the ones that don't like technology? And I actually Googled 00:45:49.920 --> 00:45:54.020 it and Quakers are fine with technology. So I don't, I, then I couldn't really find the group and I felt 00:45:54.020 --> 00:45:59.180 bad for like mocking people in, in that space that were technology phobic. And so I ended up scratching 00:45:59.180 --> 00:46:04.020 the whole chapter. But, um, you know, the, the, the heart of this is, is that I think there's, 00:46:04.500 --> 00:46:11.460 you know, I'm learning here. There's an opportunity to, to support, um, rural with a different mindset. 00:46:11.460 --> 00:46:16.760 And I think there's, you know, just given the percentages of people, um, in America that are 00:46:16.760 --> 00:46:20.200 in rural environments and small church environments, there's listeners, there's audience out there. 00:46:20.760 --> 00:46:25.520 Um, you know, what I'm hearing is, you know, maybe they've been stuck in the way that it is, 00:46:25.520 --> 00:46:32.480 or, or maybe they've got leaders that are stuck, um, in the way that it is. Let's, let's get back to 00:46:32.480 --> 00:46:37.680 that as, as we're landing the plane here. Somebody's wanting to do something different in a rural 00:46:37.680 --> 00:46:43.180 environment. Maybe it's, it's, chances are it's a volunteer. It's not a staff person. Staff's not 00:46:43.180 --> 00:46:48.320 buying it. Staff doesn't have vision for this. Senior pastor, leadership decision maker, whoever, 00:46:48.800 --> 00:46:53.260 not, not interested, elder board. Um, what advice would you give them? 00:46:53.260 --> 00:46:57.940 Oh, you're going to get me in trouble here, but, uh, I would, I love doing that by the way. 00:46:58.020 --> 00:47:03.640 I would say, you know, just do it. Nobody can stop you from planting online churches. Right. 00:47:04.140 --> 00:47:09.640 And it's always great when we have the support of, of an inherited congregation and, you know, 00:47:09.860 --> 00:47:14.680 they, we, it would be ideal if it could happen that way. But if you can get a small team of people 00:47:14.680 --> 00:47:19.460 together who have a passion for this, that want to build community and share the gospel and, 00:47:19.460 --> 00:47:26.140 and, um, um, digitality, you know, nobody can really stop you, you know, and I'm, you know, 00:47:26.140 --> 00:47:34.100 in a denomination that's very institutional and very, all of that, but, um, lay people are doing 00:47:34.100 --> 00:47:40.660 this, you know, it releases the priesthood of all believers. Like, uh, a tech device makes every 00:47:40.660 --> 00:47:47.380 single person a missionary. Um, and, and we can use that to the glory of God in, in powerful ways. 00:47:47.380 --> 00:47:53.480 And when the system is, you know, against that or whatever, or trying to dampen that, 00:47:53.640 --> 00:47:58.480 you just have to be faithful to what God's calling you to do and, and press forward. 00:47:58.900 --> 00:48:04.320 Michael Beck, uh, the Fresh Expressions of Rural Church. When's that, when's that actually 00:48:04.320 --> 00:48:05.440 publishing? When's that coming out? 00:48:05.580 --> 00:48:08.740 Like next week, I think like August 15th. Yeah. 00:48:08.900 --> 00:48:14.380 Boom. Right around the corner. So it will, by the time the streets, it will be out. Um, my, 00:48:14.380 --> 00:48:19.980 my birthday is August 18th. So if anybody wants to, no, I've, I've, I'm August 13th. 00:48:19.980 --> 00:48:20.560 When's your birthday? 00:48:20.840 --> 00:48:21.840 August 13th. 00:48:21.980 --> 00:48:26.800 13th. No kidding. Is when did Elvis die? Was it the 15th or the 13th? Do you know? 00:48:27.020 --> 00:48:27.900 I don't know. 00:48:28.080 --> 00:48:32.220 For some reason that has always stuck in my head that my birthday is right around 00:48:32.220 --> 00:48:38.020 because Elvis died 77 and I was born 77. That makes me 45. How old are you? How old are you 00:48:38.020 --> 00:48:38.360 going to be? 00:48:38.640 --> 00:48:39.960 Um, I'll be turning 42. 00:48:40.200 --> 00:48:45.120 42. You're a kid. You have, you have, I have more gray on me than you. I like, I don't want 00:48:45.120 --> 00:48:49.180 to call you out publicly. If you're watching on YouTube, you can obviously see that. He also 00:48:49.180 --> 00:48:55.960 has more hair and more tattoos and, and let's, he's just a, a, a more man than I am. Um, but 00:48:55.960 --> 00:48:56.360 that's. 00:48:56.400 --> 00:48:59.160 And you're, you're only a couple of, I'm a couple of years behind you. 00:49:01.420 --> 00:49:06.460 You young whippersnapper. Oh man, this, this conversation just got awkward. And, uh, and so 00:49:06.460 --> 00:49:09.860 we're, we're, we're going to land the plane. Uh, Hey, there's a link in the show notes for 00:49:09.860 --> 00:49:16.200 fresh expressions of rural church. Check that out. Um, Mitchell imagination. Uh, you know, 00:49:16.240 --> 00:49:20.260 we talked about that. I'll throw that. That is that, is that on Amazon or is that an ebook? 00:49:20.400 --> 00:49:21.880 The, the missional imagination book. 00:49:21.880 --> 00:49:26.360 Yeah. So I didn't write a book on that. I just use that term and everything that I do. 00:49:26.740 --> 00:49:27.700 And I talk about it. 00:49:27.700 --> 00:49:28.840 I thought you wrote a book on it. 00:49:29.080 --> 00:49:35.940 Uh, I mean, I've weaved it into every, every, all my eight books in some way, but not that 00:49:35.940 --> 00:49:36.700 title. Yeah. 00:49:36.820 --> 00:49:41.500 Probably on my writing schedule. I don't have freedom until 2025, but I may actually write that 00:49:41.500 --> 00:49:45.860 one. I'm really intrigued by that. But Hey, listen, if, if you're not familiar with, 00:49:45.860 --> 00:49:50.920 with Michael Beck, check them out on YouTube or on, um, on Amazon. We'll put all the links 00:49:50.920 --> 00:49:56.300 in the show notes, uh, plus to his website, solid stuff. And if you're looking at fresh 00:49:56.300 --> 00:50:02.200 expressions, really unique expressions of church, Michael's one of the strongest voices, uh, here 00:50:02.200 --> 00:50:07.540 in America in that. And so check it out, Michael, thanks for doing this. Thanks for being on. 00:50:07.540 --> 00:50:12.820 And, um, uh, listen, we'll, we'll, we will certainly see again. So for, for Michael, this 00:50:12.820 --> 00:50:16.580 is Jeff with the church, digital digital church network, you know, a whole bunch of other stuff. 00:50:16.680 --> 00:50:20.280 Thanks for jumping on the podcast and, uh, we'll see you next time on the show. Y'all 00:50:20.280 --> 00:50:20.660 have a good day.