WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:04.480 Most people, when they hear the word recovery, they think of the billboard sins, you know, 00:00:04.560 --> 00:00:08.760 chemical addiction, you know, strong sexual addiction, and it certainly does include, 00:00:08.920 --> 00:00:13.980 you know, those things. I think here at Watermark, we've tried to reclaim that a little bit. I mean, 00:00:13.980 --> 00:00:18.340 the actual definition of recovery is that you're regaining something that was lost or taken away. 00:00:18.800 --> 00:00:24.800 You know, it's a restoration or return to health or return to a former and better state. And so 00:00:24.800 --> 00:00:28.180 the reality is, as Christians, we're all being recovered. 00:00:28.180 --> 00:00:33.140 Welcome to the Church Digital Podcast. Through this podcast, we'll talk about the technological 00:00:33.140 --> 00:00:39.200 innovations within the church. But more than tech for tech itself, we'll address deeper questions. 00:00:40.060 --> 00:00:44.920 Is disciple making possible digitally? How should we approach the digital mission field? 00:00:45.660 --> 00:00:51.060 Can a biblically grounded church operate in digital space? Oh, and where does the metaverse fit into 00:00:51.060 --> 00:00:56.480 all this? Whether you're a big or small church, an established church or a startup church plant, 00:00:56.800 --> 00:01:02.140 The Church Digital's goal is to help churches like yours learn to be a multiplying church, 00:01:02.760 --> 00:01:08.760 digitally and physically. Our heart? That churches like yours will discover a newfound focus on 00:01:08.760 --> 00:01:15.120 disciple making that will revolutionize your church. And now, here's your host, Jeff Reed. 00:01:15.760 --> 00:01:20.120 All right. Hey, you got the Church Digital Podcast here. Once again, it is a pleasure to be here with you 00:01:20.120 --> 00:01:24.940 today. My name is Jeff Reed, founder of the Church Digital, co-founder of Digital Church Network. 00:01:25.440 --> 00:01:31.240 And I just get to have so much fun with so many organizations, challenging digital and metaverse 00:01:31.240 --> 00:01:34.980 ministry. And so, hey, it's great to be with you again here today. Hey, quick intro, 00:01:35.060 --> 00:01:38.940 because we're going to head right into the episode itself. Maybe two months ago, actually, 00:01:39.020 --> 00:01:44.500 it was the week of my birthday. So mid-August, I did an interview, a roundtable conversation 00:01:44.500 --> 00:01:53.660 with Nathan Graybill out of Watermark Church in Dallas, Texas. You see, Nathan is the director 00:01:53.660 --> 00:02:01.980 of Regeneration. It's Watermark's Christ-centered recovery material. Now, you may not really have 00:02:01.980 --> 00:02:07.300 an awareness of what Christ-centered recovery material is. Most people know Celebrate Recovery, 00:02:07.440 --> 00:02:12.000 which is based out of Saddleback. That's probably the largest Christ-centered recovery or the most 00:02:12.000 --> 00:02:16.740 well-known Christ-centered recovery. But there's many different organizations that do stuff like that 00:02:16.740 --> 00:02:22.360 around the country. And Nate's been doing a great job out of Watermark Church championing 00:02:22.360 --> 00:02:28.840 their material and reaching people literally around the world with it. Now, the reason I'm bringing in 00:02:28.840 --> 00:02:38.120 this conversation is I believe that we as pastors, as planters, as practitioners, full-time seminary 00:02:38.120 --> 00:02:44.420 trained, bivocational volunteer, wherever you are on the map, I don't know that we're really trained 00:02:44.420 --> 00:02:51.180 how to handle the low, dark places that often happen within virtual reality or even digital ministry. 00:02:52.000 --> 00:03:02.720 In itself, these mediums, these communities, digital and virtual, they're addictive. And so we are asking 00:03:02.720 --> 00:03:08.720 volunteers, we're asking non-seminary trained people, shoot, even I think our seminary trained people 00:03:08.720 --> 00:03:18.300 don't know how to handle a severe case of depression or a suicidal person in digital or in virtual reality 00:03:18.480 --> 00:03:24.960 space. And so these are the questions that I'm asking and really start to explore how to get 00:03:24.960 --> 00:03:31.200 Christ-centered recovery active in digital and in virtual reality space. Many of these organizations 00:03:31.200 --> 00:03:38.960 are hesitant to go into these areas because there's so much perceived value in physical that they don't want 00:03:38.960 --> 00:03:48.560 to address some of the challenges that happen in digital space. But even beyond this, I think that we, 00:03:48.560 --> 00:03:54.800 Digital Church Network, we have a responsibility to get more ammunition for our soldiers that are on the 00:03:54.800 --> 00:04:00.240 battlefield. We need to get Christ-centered recovery in there. We need to get more training and equipping 00:04:00.240 --> 00:04:17.760 training and understanding on how to handle suicidal depression and a lot of the low dark that happens in 00:04:17.760 --> 00:04:25.520 digital and metaverse space. And thirdly, I think that we need to get better uniforms. We need to get 00:04:25.520 --> 00:04:33.760 better equipment. We need to get better protection for ourselves. There's been, in recent months, 00:04:33.760 --> 00:04:39.280 I've had several situations where people that are near and dear to me, digital and metaverse pastors, 00:04:39.280 --> 00:04:46.080 have come across what's called second-hand trauma. Jeff, to be honest with you, I just, I got into a dark 00:04:46.080 --> 00:04:50.960 place because I was surrounded by dark and I didn't have a community to lean on. I was working in 00:04:50.960 --> 00:04:57.840 isolation. I didn't know where to turn. And that's why I did what I did. Just transparently, I've heard 00:04:57.840 --> 00:05:06.080 it twice this year, in 2022, where people have gotten lured into a dark environment and they were unable to 00:05:06.080 --> 00:05:12.240 get themselves out individually. And so we need better ammunition. We need better equipping. We need 00:05:12.240 --> 00:05:17.200 better protection. We need better armor. Never mind that whole uniform. We need better armor 00:05:17.920 --> 00:05:24.320 for this. And that's the goal here. We're starting the conversation with this round table right here. 00:05:24.320 --> 00:05:30.480 So I'm going to present myself, Jeff with the Church Digital and Digital Church Network. We've got 00:05:30.480 --> 00:05:35.040 Nate Graybill and some of his team coming in from Regeneration from Watermark Church 00:05:35.760 --> 00:05:41.440 in a conversation that I'm calling Christ-Centered Recovery in Digital and Metaverse Spaces. Okay, 00:05:41.440 --> 00:05:48.240 everybody. Here you go. Awesome. Hey, everybody. Listen, I am excited about this round table tonight. I 00:05:48.240 --> 00:05:55.280 have been wanting to do this round table, to have this conversation for months. And so looking forward 00:05:55.280 --> 00:06:01.760 to starting this conversation tonight and then heading into more conversations centered around this. 00:06:01.760 --> 00:06:10.640 Now we're talking specifically about Christ-Centered Recovery in digital and in Metaverse Spaces. Metaverse 00:06:10.640 --> 00:06:16.080 primarily being virtual reality. And so at least virtual reality is the primary for today. I don't 00:06:16.080 --> 00:06:20.320 want to go down that rabbit hole. That's a whole other thing. But the heart of this is that there's, 00:06:20.320 --> 00:06:26.800 I believe there's an incredible opportunity to reach different people in digital Metaverse. And there's, 00:06:27.440 --> 00:06:32.720 to be honest, when we talk about recovery, and I even want to explore this with the team here, 00:06:32.720 --> 00:06:39.840 when we talk about recovery, there's a hesitancy to do this in digital and in like virtual reality. 00:06:39.840 --> 00:06:47.120 Like I've seen people's heads explode, just merely at the concept of doing it. And so honestly, I sought 00:06:47.760 --> 00:06:54.080 just advice from people in this space, trying to figure out what it would look like and to try to 00:06:54.080 --> 00:07:00.080 maybe find somebody that was willing to experiment, to explore, and maybe help us not run away from the 00:07:00.080 --> 00:07:10.160 problem, but come up with the solution towards addressing the need for recovery in digital spaces, in social 00:07:10.160 --> 00:07:17.680 media, in digital churches, and digital ministries. And so fortunately, quickly, I got connected to 00:07:17.680 --> 00:07:25.760 Nate Graybill, who's the Director of Regeneration for Watermark Church. So, hey, Nate, thanks for 00:07:25.760 --> 00:07:30.400 coming on here with this roundtable. Hey, it's a privilege to be here, Jeff. I appreciate your 00:07:30.400 --> 00:07:36.160 interest in this. And certainly recovery is needed everywhere, especially within the church. And, 00:07:36.160 --> 00:07:40.960 you know, digital just gives us an opportunity, you know, to really help people wherever they're 00:07:40.960 --> 00:07:45.200 at. And there's a lot of folks that will never walk through a church door, you know, that would 00:07:45.200 --> 00:07:49.520 certainly be willing to connect with you online. And so, want to meet people where they're at. 00:07:49.520 --> 00:07:54.880 Definitely. And that's, I mean, really, when we talk about digital ministry, you know, and especially 00:07:54.880 --> 00:07:59.920 post-COVID, now as churches, they're, hey, let's get back to the building, let's get back to the 00:07:59.920 --> 00:08:05.760 building. The reason you do digital ministry, the reason that we're trying to launch and plant digital 00:08:05.760 --> 00:08:09.920 churches are not to reach the people that the buildings are reaching. It's to reach a different 00:08:09.920 --> 00:08:14.560 type of person, different people than the buildings are reaching. And we're seeing tons of those stories. 00:08:14.560 --> 00:08:20.400 Uh, but what's interesting is that, you know, um, Nate and, uh, yeah, I'll let you introduce your 00:08:20.400 --> 00:08:25.760 team in a second, but like these devices in themselves are addictive. I'm holding up. If 00:08:25.760 --> 00:08:31.600 you're listening on a podcast, I'm holding up my iPhone, like it's addictive. Virtual reality is an 00:08:31.600 --> 00:08:38.560 addictive source into itself. And so there's the, a little nuance here of, uh, I'm doing recovery, 00:08:38.560 --> 00:08:44.000 uh, in a source itself that can be addictive. And what are those, those tensions and, 00:08:44.000 --> 00:08:48.240 and what are the issues that you have to do? And so I'm glad that you're the smart one in this 00:08:48.240 --> 00:08:53.040 conversation and have all the answers already figured out for us. Like that's the, I'm just 00:08:53.040 --> 00:08:58.400 here to sit back and listen to the, uh, the Nate Graybill wisdom show. So it's going to be a great 00:08:58.400 --> 00:09:04.560 hour talking with you. It'll be a short hour. So we're still learning too. Awesome. So, 00:09:04.560 --> 00:09:08.240 Hey, why don't you introduce your team that you brought in and some of these voices that, 00:09:08.240 --> 00:09:13.200 that are going to help us as we walk down this journey? Yeah. Well, I brought in Jim Foley, 00:09:13.440 --> 00:09:19.280 Jim Foley was at Watermark for two decades, you know, almost, and, you know, has been involved 00:09:19.280 --> 00:09:23.920 with the recovery ministry here for almost as long as he's been at the church. He's really the one that 00:09:23.920 --> 00:09:30.960 pushed me to do some virtual groups years ago. Um, and it really ran the first test groups and pilot 00:09:30.960 --> 00:09:37.440 groups, and then even launched, you know, um, our ministry in Poland with regeneration through virtual 00:09:37.440 --> 00:09:43.280 coaching with the crew, with the crew staff that's in Poland over there. And it's now spread into Eastern 00:09:43.280 --> 00:09:50.640 Europe. And so Jim's joined us. Um, and then I asked Jenny Beam to join us as well. Jenny, uh, ran the 00:09:50.640 --> 00:09:58.080 first female pilot virtual group here for regeneration at Watermark. She's also, um, the author of our 00:09:58.080 --> 00:10:05.040 regeneration for students ministry. And, um, um, and she's been involved in recovery here at Watermark 00:10:05.040 --> 00:10:11.120 since she looked like she was 16. I think you were 18 when you first came. And, uh, that was many, 00:10:11.120 --> 00:10:17.840 many years ago, by the way. Um, not too many though. Uh, she's still pretty young. So I brought both of 00:10:17.840 --> 00:10:24.160 them in because they've actually led, uh, groups in the virtual world all the way through and seen 00:10:24.160 --> 00:10:28.560 the results of that. Um, I've just kind of been the coach and the designer and the thinker behind 00:10:28.560 --> 00:10:33.520 some of it. And so I'm really grateful to have them here. Awesome. So definitely excited about the, 00:10:33.520 --> 00:10:40.160 the conversation, Jenny, Jim, thanks for coming in and being a part of this, but let me even ask up 00:10:40.160 --> 00:10:46.320 front here. Uh, you know, some people listening, they may not have a clear picture of what recovery 00:10:46.320 --> 00:10:52.480 is, who needs it, what's involved in that. So, you know, help us lay a foundation here for the 00:10:52.480 --> 00:10:57.760 conversation. What is recovery and why should my church care? Yeah. Well, most people, when they 00:10:57.760 --> 00:11:03.280 hear the word recovery, they think of the billboard sins, you know, chemical addiction, you know, 00:11:03.280 --> 00:11:07.680 strong sexual addiction. And it certainly does include, you know, those things. I think here at 00:11:07.680 --> 00:11:13.120 Watermark, we've tried to reclaim that a little bit. I mean, the actual definition of recovery is that 00:11:13.120 --> 00:11:17.680 you're regaining something that was lost or taken away. You know, it's a restoration or return to 00:11:17.680 --> 00:11:24.720 health, um, or return to a former and better state. And so the reality is as Christians, we're all being 00:11:24.720 --> 00:11:30.880 recovered. You know, Jesus came to seek and save that which was lost and God made us in his image and he made 00:11:30.880 --> 00:11:37.360 us for his glory. And so, um, he's recovering us, you know, through Christ and the work of the Holy 00:11:37.360 --> 00:11:44.000 Spirit, not only for salvation, but, you know, through sanctification to be image bearers again. 00:11:44.000 --> 00:11:50.880 And so we've broadened that out at Watermark where really for us, recovery means anything that is 00:11:50.880 --> 00:11:56.880 standing in the way of an intimate relationship with God and his glory in your life. And so for 00:11:56.880 --> 00:12:01.680 us, you know, regeneration, not only re reaches those people that are wrestling with traditional 00:12:01.680 --> 00:12:07.840 quote unquote recovery issues, but really anything that someone's struggling with, 60% of our staff 00:12:07.840 --> 00:12:14.480 have been through it. We deal with pride, you know, uh, codependency, depression, anything that is 00:12:14.480 --> 00:12:20.480 getting in the way of your relationship with God or your relationships with others. Um, and recovery in 00:12:20.480 --> 00:12:29.360 general is a lifelong process. Um, um, and so part of the reason why people associate that word recovery 00:12:29.360 --> 00:12:37.280 so much with it is because of the success of AA and, um, and you know, AA really was born out. Most 00:12:37.280 --> 00:12:42.320 people don't know this, but AA was born out of a Christian group called the Oxford group working 00:12:42.320 --> 00:12:48.960 through scripture and they, it was built on biblical principles. And so the steps, the 12 steps themselves 00:12:48.960 --> 00:12:55.600 are biblical principles that actually outline the process of spiritual sanctification really for 00:12:55.600 --> 00:13:02.320 anyone. So it can work on anything that is getting in the way of your spiritual growth and formation. 00:13:02.320 --> 00:13:08.960 And so for us, you know, we reach really the entire church in our recovery ministry is a good cross 00:13:08.960 --> 00:13:15.440 section of the culture. That's great. Now regeneration is, is a little different. There's some nuances 00:13:16.080 --> 00:13:20.480 between regeneration, I'm assuming. And, you know, I mean, celebrate recovery is the one that 00:13:20.480 --> 00:13:25.440 comes to mind as, as, as Christ-centered recovery. And I'm sure, I'm sure there are others. What, 00:13:25.440 --> 00:13:31.440 what kind of separates regeneration from, uh, some of the other, uh, Christ-centered recovery 00:13:31.440 --> 00:13:35.920 options that are out there? What makes you guys different? Well, uh, let me, let me back up 00:13:35.920 --> 00:13:41.600 briefly on this. So my story, I was the first addict to come to Watermark and tell my story. 00:13:41.600 --> 00:13:48.000 So back in 2000, it's not, not 22 years ago, I came to the church with a, with a pornography 00:13:48.000 --> 00:13:56.720 addiction struggle. And, um, and at the time, you know, I asked for, um, help other people to counsel 00:13:56.720 --> 00:14:04.000 me and really our church, because we believe so much in this, in the power of a group of believers 00:14:04.000 --> 00:14:08.480 working through scripture. We don't generally refer away from the church right away. And they referred 00:14:08.480 --> 00:14:14.080 me to a group of other believers and we just started working through scripture. And, uh, and without 00:14:14.080 --> 00:14:20.240 knowing it, I did the steps of recovery literally on my couch, you know, for nine months. And, um, 00:14:20.240 --> 00:14:25.760 and then we were part of the launch here of celebrate recovery at Watermark after I got well. 00:14:25.760 --> 00:14:31.680 And so, um, you know, before we talk about other ministries, I, you know, celebrate recovery had a 00:14:31.680 --> 00:14:37.520 big impact on my life. Um, you know, they really did a lot for bringing recovery back into the church. 00:14:37.520 --> 00:14:44.800 Um, but, um, but what happened here is as, as, as Watermark started to use celebrate recovery 00:14:44.800 --> 00:14:49.600 as a primary means of pastoral care, it grew, um, to, I think, to the point where the really 00:14:49.600 --> 00:14:55.040 the largest in the country, we're running around 700 a week, uh, during that time. And then we started to 00:14:55.680 --> 00:15:02.880 do some, um, some studies of our participants. And the great thing about celebrate recovery was 00:15:02.880 --> 00:15:07.360 people were experiencing an authentic community, which is what they want, just this real authentic 00:15:07.760 --> 00:15:13.200 bonding where they could be open and share openly. Then they were experiencing recovery from their 00:15:13.200 --> 00:15:20.880 addictions, which was great. But part of the problem with, with that was that our mission at Watermark 00:15:20.880 --> 00:15:26.480 was to make fully devoted followers of Christ. And so when we, when we started to measure spiritual formation, 00:15:26.480 --> 00:15:32.080 um, um, measures, like, are they growing in their knowledge and use of scripture? 00:15:32.480 --> 00:15:36.880 Are they, are they joining a church? Do they understand their identity in Christ? 00:15:36.880 --> 00:15:40.560 Do they understand their gifts set? Do they know how to share the gospel? 00:15:40.560 --> 00:15:45.280 You know, um, or do they know how to deploy, you know, the gifts that they've been given to others? 00:15:45.280 --> 00:15:51.760 You know, are they carrying out the great commission? You know, um, we, we really realized that 00:15:51.760 --> 00:15:56.400 we didn't have a full discipleship ministry. And one of the things that I had learned in my time 00:15:56.400 --> 00:16:02.320 in celebrate recovery was that those 12 steps really do outline the biblical sanctification process. 00:16:02.320 --> 00:16:09.120 For believers. And so for us, in order to open up to the church and make it relevant for everyone and 00:16:09.120 --> 00:16:16.320 to move past these hurdles of what people have in their mind for recovery, we shifted some things 00:16:16.320 --> 00:16:22.640 pretty substantially. One, we took all of the steps back to the biblical roots. We created daily content, 00:16:22.640 --> 00:16:28.320 um, because in recovery circles, often, you know, people think about going to meetings. Well, 00:16:28.320 --> 00:16:34.080 you know, um, really the opportunity that you have with recovery, uh, real recovery happens in a daily 00:16:34.080 --> 00:16:40.400 encounter with Christ. So we created daily content. Um, we focused on spiritual formation through those 00:16:40.400 --> 00:16:46.160 12 steps. Um, and we want a daily discipleship happening outside of the group. So really our content 00:16:46.160 --> 00:16:54.880 not only has daily scripture, um, daily prayer, um, daily to do actions. Um, the other thing is that 00:16:54.880 --> 00:17:02.000 it's group based. We believe in the power of the group moving through recovery together. And then we 00:17:02.000 --> 00:17:06.320 don't do any specific issue specific groups. So we don't have any groups that are specifically for 00:17:06.320 --> 00:17:12.400 alcohol or sexual addiction or, you know, mental health issues. We mix those groups. We split by 00:17:12.400 --> 00:17:18.480 gender, but we mix those groups ultimately because it helps people get past trying to control that 00:17:18.480 --> 00:17:24.240 issue first and gets them down to the idolatry issues that are driving some of those, some of those 00:17:24.240 --> 00:17:29.360 behaviors. And often people come in and they're struggling with more than one issue. And so when 00:17:29.360 --> 00:17:34.080 you're in a mixed issue group, you move past behavior management really quick. And you realize 00:17:34.080 --> 00:17:40.720 that you really have some of the same core struggles as people that have, um, different, uh, 00:17:40.720 --> 00:17:46.240 proclivities and how that plays out in their own lives. And so, um, so those are some of the 00:17:46.240 --> 00:17:52.000 differences. We do group-based versus one-on-one. We have daily discipleship. We do spiritual formation 00:17:52.000 --> 00:17:57.360 through the steps. The goal is not sobriety. The goal is full devotion to Christ. So we want 00:17:57.360 --> 00:18:03.520 to address all areas of your life. Sobriety comes in the middle of that journey. Um, and then one 00:18:03.520 --> 00:18:09.040 thing that's been really useful as we've developed this, um, this open group content in the first six 00:18:09.040 --> 00:18:13.840 weeks of recovery, you know, people can come and go. There's really no commitment that they have to 00:18:13.840 --> 00:18:19.520 make. They don't have to work on anything. They can just show up to meetings, but, um, so it allows 00:18:19.520 --> 00:18:25.520 people to enter in as they're ready and to get in deeper, but they're not allowed to go into a 00:18:25.520 --> 00:18:30.160 closed group to really work through the steps until they've completed six weeks of content, 00:18:30.800 --> 00:18:35.120 shown consistency of attendance, you know, and raise their hand and said, I'm ready to go. 00:18:35.120 --> 00:18:39.200 And that does a couple of things. It builds trust. It allows us to meet people where they're at, 00:18:39.200 --> 00:18:43.840 move slowly with them, you know, for them to acclimate at their own pace, but then also 00:18:43.840 --> 00:18:49.840 demonstrate that they are in fully before we really put them with other people that are ready to work on 00:18:49.840 --> 00:18:53.120 their content daily. So that daily content is really important. 00:18:53.120 --> 00:18:58.000 Now, you know, I, I love what I'm hearing with Nate, like the holistic, um, you know what we'll 00:18:58.000 --> 00:19:01.200 address sobriety, but it's at the middle of this thing. We got to do some free work. We're going to 00:19:01.200 --> 00:19:07.680 do some work afterwards. It's not sobriety. It's, it's wholly devoted in understanding maybe some of 00:19:07.680 --> 00:19:14.560 the disciple making bigger picture conversations. I love that. Um, how does, how does all of this, 00:19:14.560 --> 00:19:19.680 what we're talking about? Like I'm hearing content, I'm hearing multiple groups. I'm hearing 00:19:19.680 --> 00:19:27.360 kind of conversations. Um, does this work digitally? Like he, even Bob was asking a question. Bob's in, 00:19:27.360 --> 00:19:32.720 in the audience here, uh, listening and Bob's like, Hey, like if we're doing this in the metaverse, 00:19:32.720 --> 00:19:38.960 does that take away from, from a local expression, from a, a local connection with, with a local church? 00:19:38.960 --> 00:19:45.680 Um, what by opening it up to digital, it's a much broader reach, which is awesome, but you use that 00:19:45.680 --> 00:19:51.680 local feel. How much of the local feel is, is really important as you're addressing, uh, you know, 00:19:51.680 --> 00:19:58.960 some of these, uh, issues within recovery. I would say, um, uh, for a large percentage of the folks that 00:19:58.960 --> 00:20:05.120 were doing online are typically not the people that would first go to the church for recovery. Um, 00:20:05.120 --> 00:20:10.480 so they might seek something else, uh, before they actually got a support church, uh, support group 00:20:10.480 --> 00:20:16.080 through the church. Uh, one of the things that we did with regeneration was we tried to, uh, encapsulate 00:20:16.080 --> 00:20:23.760 the in-person program online. So we did encourage the participants to have a mentor through a local 00:20:23.760 --> 00:20:28.400 church. So we did kind of help bring it back to the church, which was very helpful and very successful. 00:20:28.400 --> 00:20:33.440 Yeah. So there's a couple of support mechanisms for a participant when they're in a group. 00:20:33.440 --> 00:20:37.840 The first is they have some leaders and we do some accountability within the group themselves, 00:20:37.840 --> 00:20:43.360 but as people move into that closed group, they're required to find a local mentor and we have online 00:20:43.360 --> 00:20:50.640 mentor training. And so, uh, we, we can help them with that, find a local mentor where they're at. Um, 00:20:50.640 --> 00:20:55.280 but that keeps them in a local relationships as well, and hopefully moves them into a relationship 00:20:55.280 --> 00:21:00.480 within the church where they're, where they're locally present as they participate online. 00:21:00.480 --> 00:21:06.400 And I think in some of our test groups, we were running about 50, 50 in terms of percentage of 00:21:06.400 --> 00:21:12.000 watermark members versus people that were on the outside with our, with our test groups. 00:21:12.000 --> 00:21:16.640 And so remember that it doesn't just serve people that don't have recovery where they're at, 00:21:16.640 --> 00:21:21.760 where they're trying to get in, but it also serves people that can't make it to your ministry night 00:21:21.760 --> 00:21:27.040 or that have logistical issues. They might be traveling for work on a consistent basis. They 00:21:27.040 --> 00:21:33.280 might be college students that, you know, leave for the summer and come back. So the, the digital world 00:21:33.280 --> 00:21:38.960 actually, you know, solves a lot of logistical problems for people that can't be physically present, 00:21:38.960 --> 00:21:43.840 even shut-ins people that, you know, aren't healthy enough to even show up, you know, on your ministry 00:21:43.840 --> 00:21:48.080 night. It gives them access to the church and some of the people that are there. 00:21:48.080 --> 00:21:52.640 Yeah. You're, I mean, you're describing the different types of people that, that we see 00:21:52.640 --> 00:21:57.360 are connecting via digital and virtual reality and metaverse. And so those are, those are some great 00:21:57.360 --> 00:22:04.240 examples. Jim, I got, I got a follow-up for you. Like I'm understanding you helped launch, I guess, 00:22:04.240 --> 00:22:11.440 through crew, you were doing virtual coaching to, uh, another continent, uh, quite literally over 00:22:11.440 --> 00:22:19.280 in Poland and helped coach and launch recovery in, in Poland. I'm just curious, um, the contextualization 00:22:19.280 --> 00:22:26.720 of, of recovery is, uh, uh, you know, recovery in America, i.e. Dallas, Texas, is that different 00:22:26.720 --> 00:22:32.400 than another state or country? Is it different in digital? Is it different in Poland? Like, 00:22:32.400 --> 00:22:37.920 what are some of these variances and differences, or is it consistent, the same framework all the 00:22:37.920 --> 00:22:42.560 way through, regardless of your context? Yeah, I would say that's a great question. And I think, 00:22:42.560 --> 00:22:47.680 um, you know, sin struggle, sin struggle, whether you're in the United States or Poland. And so we 00:22:47.680 --> 00:22:52.800 all have issues that we wrestle with, that we're trying to overcome. Uh, there are some cultural 00:22:52.800 --> 00:22:57.440 differences in, um, not necessarily Poland, but a couple of the other countries that we looked at. 00:22:57.440 --> 00:23:04.640 Um, but the, the base foundation is still the same across the different platforms. Uh, so it was, 00:23:04.640 --> 00:23:08.720 it was really interesting working with the crew team. These guys are, you know, professed Christians 00:23:08.720 --> 00:23:13.840 for a long time and, uh, they're out there, uh, spreading the word and spreading the gospel, but 00:23:13.840 --> 00:23:19.280 they still have struggles too. And it was great for us to, uh, come in and support them and guide 00:23:19.280 --> 00:23:24.080 them. And, uh, I think they've launched about five groups in the last couple of years. So it's really encouraging. 00:23:24.080 --> 00:23:29.440 Interesting. Taking it in, in the digital space. Well, let me ask contextually, uh, the work that 00:23:29.440 --> 00:23:36.560 you've done digital, are they, uh, connected to your church or to the church physically? Are they 00:23:36.560 --> 00:23:43.600 people that are not connected to the church at all? And, and it's, it's very, uh, different and broad. 00:23:43.600 --> 00:23:49.920 Like when we say, and you've been saying virtual, um, uh, virtual in our context is virtual reality. 00:23:49.920 --> 00:23:54.720 That's not what you mean. You mean connecting via digital tools, like zoom, things like that. 00:23:54.720 --> 00:23:59.280 So when we're talking about a digital audience, traditionally, whether through watermark church 00:23:59.280 --> 00:24:04.160 or some of your other churches that you're resourcing, what types of, of connection do 00:24:04.160 --> 00:24:08.400 these people have with the local church? Well, ours was really interesting because I'd say we had 00:24:08.400 --> 00:24:15.840 about 50, 50, um, girls who were here from watermark and people who know from another state or even another 00:24:15.840 --> 00:24:23.920 country. We had one really sweet girl from Honduras who was in our group and faithfully showed up every 00:24:23.920 --> 00:24:32.080 single week. And, um, it was just very, uh, interesting. Also the, like the women who were from watermark, 00:24:32.080 --> 00:24:37.760 it was not, uh, they would not have been able to go to an in-person group. It wasn't like this was 00:24:37.760 --> 00:24:41.920 poaching them. Um, you know, like one of them was a single mom who had kids who couldn't be up late 00:24:41.920 --> 00:24:48.320 in childcare. Um, and so, you know, she was able to do this after her kids were in bed, um, things like 00:24:48.320 --> 00:24:56.080 that. So I never really felt like we were taking away people who would have been otherwise engaging in 00:24:56.080 --> 00:25:00.880 person. It always felt like we were giving them the opportunity where they would not have had one. 00:25:01.760 --> 00:25:07.120 Um, and it was interesting too. One of ours was local and then ended up, uh, you know, 00:25:07.120 --> 00:25:12.480 she was working through a divorce and she ended up reconciling with her husband. And so she moved 00:25:12.480 --> 00:25:16.240 out of state to, to get back with him and she was able to continue in our group. You know, she didn't 00:25:16.240 --> 00:25:21.280 have, she didn't have to pick between the two. It was really sweet. That's great. Um, Jenny, 00:25:21.280 --> 00:25:28.400 just even a follow-up on this, like, uh, how, how is your group still happening digital? Um, 00:25:28.400 --> 00:25:34.000 you know, talk to me a little bit, what surprised you? Um, like what, what was, were you, did you 00:25:34.000 --> 00:25:38.960 have familiarity with it? I mean, it sounded like you were involved with recovery, uh, from an earlier 00:25:38.960 --> 00:25:44.480 age. So like, what was the thing by doing a digital instead of physical that caught you off guard? 00:25:44.480 --> 00:25:48.000 Like, talk to me a little bit, maybe about the two of these together. 00:25:48.000 --> 00:25:54.480 I had no idea what I was getting into. Um, very familiar with recovery. Don't know a whole lot 00:25:54.480 --> 00:26:02.320 about tech technology. So many panicked phone calls to Jim. We can't get this to work help. Um, 00:26:02.320 --> 00:26:08.960 but I was actually really surprised by, I mean, you think digital, you don't think, um, personal 00:26:08.960 --> 00:26:15.440 connection. I did not expect to find the same intimacy and vulnerability in the groups. Um, and I was 00:26:15.440 --> 00:26:20.960 very surprised to find that it felt just as it took more intentionality. It took a lot more, 00:26:20.960 --> 00:26:29.760 um, thoughtfulness to make it happen, but we had the same, if not even greater, um, participation, 00:26:29.760 --> 00:26:36.000 commitment, everybody was a hundred percent committed and they were very, very vulnerable, 00:26:36.000 --> 00:26:45.680 very real. That surprised me. Um, troubleshooting. Yeah. As you may hear my internet connection is, 00:26:45.680 --> 00:26:51.760 is always a little iffy. Um, but it never stood in the way of God's work. That was really surprising 00:26:51.760 --> 00:26:56.480 to me. I thought something's going to crash. Something's going to take it all down. And no 00:26:56.480 --> 00:26:59.280 matter what, uh, somehow God always worked through it. 00:26:59.280 --> 00:27:04.240 Amen. You know, a lot of things that we were fearing is the, the being in meta world. Are, 00:27:04.240 --> 00:27:10.480 are we going to not have that intimacy with our, uh, with our participants? And I would say that, 00:27:10.480 --> 00:27:19.280 um, uh, I would say that the intimacy was there as much so as in person. And I would say that the 00:27:19.280 --> 00:27:25.600 people opened up quicker online than they actually did when they were in person, which was really 00:27:25.600 --> 00:27:31.840 astonishing to us. And then we also saw that, uh, once the folks started in a group, a higher 00:27:31.840 --> 00:27:37.840 percentage of them stayed in the group and completed, uh, versus in person. So there's a lot of 00:27:37.840 --> 00:27:42.400 interesting things that we learned. Uh, a funny story that I like to share is you have to be careful 00:27:42.400 --> 00:27:46.960 about the folks in the group. We had a group of guys that were in there. They'd gotten home from 00:27:46.960 --> 00:27:51.440 work. They're all over the country. You know, we're sitting here in recovery and one of the guys 00:27:51.440 --> 00:27:55.760 picks up a glass of wine and he kind of swirls around and take, takes a drink in front of the 00:27:55.760 --> 00:28:00.800 whole crew. We're like, Oh no, no, no, this is not good. So we, uh, we had to put some guidelines up, 00:28:00.800 --> 00:28:06.800 but otherwise, uh, the communication and the process was just tremendous. 00:28:06.800 --> 00:28:08.800 And it's great. Nate, you want to say something? 00:28:08.800 --> 00:28:13.200 Yeah. I think a couple of things that I really discovered is that just folks in the group, 00:28:13.200 --> 00:28:18.640 especially if they've got good leaders, figure out, you know, the relational connection. 00:28:18.640 --> 00:28:23.200 Like that, this is actually one of the big criticisms and hesitancies of the church is, 00:28:23.200 --> 00:28:27.120 Hey, it's not real. It's not real relationships. You're only seeing people, 00:28:27.120 --> 00:28:33.200 you know, for a limited time, who knows if they're hiding. Well, um, and, and I think, 00:28:33.200 --> 00:28:37.920 you know, especially the women led on this issue, Jenny's group, like they had hand signals that 00:28:37.920 --> 00:28:43.600 they would do for clapping with people. You know, some groups, they opened up 30 minutes before and 00:28:43.600 --> 00:28:49.040 stayed 30 minutes later. Well, I came into a commencement one night, uh, right on time. 00:28:49.040 --> 00:28:54.240 And their women were all in tears already online because they had been sharing for 30 minutes 00:28:54.240 --> 00:28:59.920 beforehand. You know, they would, they sometimes when they, they had, they would open up the zoom 00:28:59.920 --> 00:29:06.000 accounts on off times, just to work on inventory, their book work, and they'd all come in and do it 00:29:06.000 --> 00:29:12.000 together or they'd watch videos together. Sometimes they all sat down and had meals together online. 00:29:12.000 --> 00:29:18.480 And so you figure out the relational component and you, and, and, and the other thing about 00:29:18.480 --> 00:29:26.480 recovery is a really difficult, hard journey. And so as people are going through all this emotional 00:29:26.480 --> 00:29:30.720 and shared experience, remember they have different proclivities, but they're working through the same 00:29:30.720 --> 00:29:35.840 biblical principles and they're having all this, they're learning from each other's recovery as 00:29:35.840 --> 00:29:42.080 they go. It bonds them deeply, maybe in ways that they don't bond with people in their own church 00:29:42.080 --> 00:29:47.200 physically, because they're going through a shared experience that's really powerful and 00:29:47.200 --> 00:29:54.000 transformational. And so that creates this social connection. It created so much in Jenny's group 00:29:54.000 --> 00:29:59.760 that a couple of people would say, Hey, I'm going to come into Dallas, you know, on this date. And all 00:29:59.760 --> 00:30:04.400 the women would say, well, I'll fly in. And they had these reunions, you know, from people coming 00:30:04.400 --> 00:30:11.680 around the country when people just were flying through town. So I think that they, you know, this will 00:30:11.680 --> 00:30:16.240 happen if a leader's intentional and we're learning, this is some of the first learnings in these groups 00:30:16.240 --> 00:30:22.480 that you can really make these connections happen. Jim, I'm blown away. Like, and Jenny, I want to come 00:30:22.480 --> 00:30:26.640 back and ask some questions. Like it just, there's, there's been so much revealed in the past five 00:30:26.640 --> 00:30:33.680 minutes. So thank you for that. Um, Jim, let me ask this real quick. You're telling me that a larger 00:30:33.680 --> 00:30:40.000 percentage of people will complete this process digitally than will in a, in a physical environment. 00:30:40.000 --> 00:30:42.240 It is, I did hear you say that, right? 00:30:42.240 --> 00:30:48.800 Based on, uh, we launched five groups last, last year and based on those five groups, we had a higher 00:30:48.800 --> 00:30:55.120 percentage rate of those completing a region is a nine month program. So it's not short and sweet. It's, 00:30:55.120 --> 00:31:01.680 it's a full program. And so we had a higher percentage of people that completed it. And we also found, uh, 00:31:01.680 --> 00:31:07.440 in the groundwork stage, which is the first six weeks of people kind of coming and going, if they 00:31:07.440 --> 00:31:13.920 attended three times that they would stick and stay in, uh, enroll in the group for the long-term, 00:31:13.920 --> 00:31:16.720 which is really different than the in-person training. 00:31:16.720 --> 00:31:21.600 Have, have you all, and this is speculation, I'm sure, because you're in testing mode. Have you all, 00:31:21.600 --> 00:31:26.800 is, is there any reason why you think that digital is, has more legs that it, that it's easier to 00:31:26.800 --> 00:31:30.080 tell? Like what, what, what conclusions are you drawing from that? 00:31:30.080 --> 00:31:36.080 I would say, um, yeah, it was a complete surprise to all of us and every, uh, digital group that we've 00:31:36.080 --> 00:31:42.720 led. It's been pretty similar. Uh, I think people are very comfortable with sharing online. It's not 00:31:42.720 --> 00:31:48.560 odd or different or weird to them as maybe in person kind of makes it a little bit awkward. 00:31:48.560 --> 00:31:55.200 Um, so it was really insightful to see people open up and typically it takes several weeks for people 00:31:55.200 --> 00:32:00.640 to start opening up and sharing. We had people the first day or the second day opening up sharing, 00:32:00.640 --> 00:32:07.280 which was really, uh, incredible. I think a couple other factors too, is that, uh, number one, 00:32:07.280 --> 00:32:11.120 you know, sometimes they're sharing from a place where they feel comfortable already, 00:32:11.120 --> 00:32:16.720 you know, from their home, they might have a, they might have a, um, an office where that's private 00:32:16.720 --> 00:32:22.240 and they feel more comfortable at home. And the other, the other function is it's harder for them to miss. 00:32:22.240 --> 00:32:28.320 Like, look, when you're in recovery every week, when you're going through it, you don't want to show 00:32:28.320 --> 00:32:35.040 up like it's hard. And, um, and so the fact that you're reachable and you really don't have an 00:32:35.040 --> 00:32:41.040 excuse, you know, the, we did see that the attendance was higher. And so just even attending 00:32:41.040 --> 00:32:46.480 the group when maybe you haven't done your work or you're feeling discouraged, like that's enough 00:32:46.480 --> 00:32:53.680 sometimes to keep seeing, keep people plugged in. And so I think, you know, you know, it's, it's a lot 00:32:53.680 --> 00:32:58.160 more difficult to skip. You know, you can be anywhere in the world as long as you have internet access 00:32:58.160 --> 00:33:04.160 and still join. And so I think that helped a ton as well. Interesting. Jenny, you're excited. Say, 00:33:04.160 --> 00:33:08.160 say something here. Oh, I was going to say the same thing. Like we had one girl who had COVID and 00:33:08.160 --> 00:33:13.600 she was just laying in her bed with her phone like this because she, you know, propped up in the front 00:33:13.600 --> 00:33:19.600 of her face. Cause she didn't want to miss. Um, and we'd have people, you know, say my kid has a 00:33:19.600 --> 00:33:23.920 soccer game, but I'm going to, you know, I'm going to try to catch the end in the car on the way home. 00:33:24.400 --> 00:33:30.160 Um, and I think just the fact that like, like Nate was saying, you'll look for any excuse to miss 00:33:30.160 --> 00:33:34.160 because there is that sin nature that doesn't want to open up. That doesn't want to let go. 00:33:34.400 --> 00:33:40.480 And when those excuses are taken away, um, just is really cool to see how you can get traction really 00:33:40.480 --> 00:33:46.800 fast. So Jenny and your group, you had like, I forget the locales, but there was a different country 00:33:46.800 --> 00:33:53.100 that was, was involved in some of the, how do these people find out? Is it like circle of friends, 00:33:53.100 --> 00:33:58.180 people inviting people, or is there a regeneration marketing campaign? Like how, how are people 00:33:58.180 --> 00:34:03.020 getting connected, uh, to your group digitally? Yeah. Well, what's really cool is we never 00:34:03.020 --> 00:34:10.100 advertised this, um, at all, um, which, and we still had a waiting list of over a hundred women, 00:34:10.100 --> 00:34:17.240 like waiting to be put in a group just for word of mouth, just from a handful of people who came to us 00:34:17.240 --> 00:34:23.000 and said, is there a way to do this digitally? And we said, well, we're kind of testing that out. 00:34:23.000 --> 00:34:28.020 Since you asked, we'll put you on the list. Um, other than that, you know, we, we didn't go 00:34:28.020 --> 00:34:33.620 looking for them. Yeah. So Jeff, we actually have a portal on regeneration recovery.org where people 00:34:33.620 --> 00:34:39.400 can check to see which churches are running online. Um, but here's what I would say. One of the, one of 00:34:39.400 --> 00:34:47.680 the, one of the challenges is that the demand for this need, for this service is so much greater than 00:34:47.680 --> 00:34:54.460 the leader supply. And so, uh, we actually had a church in New Jersey that opened up first online 00:34:54.460 --> 00:35:00.040 because of COVID they shut down and they grew so much. In fact, it was funny. I had a staff member 00:35:00.040 --> 00:35:06.620 here in Dallas come by and say, Hey, my neighbor leaned over the fence and said, my mother who lives 00:35:06.620 --> 00:35:12.640 in Denver, who had been trying to get through, go through a Bible study for years, told us that she 00:35:12.640 --> 00:35:19.140 was, that she was going through this thing called regeneration at your church. And she's participating 00:35:19.140 --> 00:35:26.500 from Denver at a church in New Jersey. It was just crazy. Um, but, um, but, but, but I think that, 00:35:26.580 --> 00:35:31.160 but this church in New Jersey, they started online and they grew so much that they used up all their 00:35:31.160 --> 00:35:36.960 leaders. And so when they launched a local ministry, nobody from their church came and, and they couldn't 00:35:36.960 --> 00:35:42.980 even serve the local body because of the demand that was on the outside. And so they actually had to close 00:35:42.980 --> 00:35:47.900 off some of those channels from the outside to make sure that they're caring for their local body first. 00:35:48.380 --> 00:35:56.140 And so I think what I would say here is there's, there's an inexhaustible demand for health and 00:35:56.140 --> 00:36:02.620 recovery. And because everybody's dealing with some type of pain or hindrance in their life. And if they 00:36:02.620 --> 00:36:06.860 can do it and not only that, but if people can do it remotely, they're going to choose that first, 00:36:06.860 --> 00:36:11.780 quite honestly, than being with their church. And so one of the challenges that you'll have as a 00:36:11.780 --> 00:36:18.280 church is making sure that you're able to serve the needs of your local body first. Um, but like Jenny 00:36:18.280 --> 00:36:23.840 said, it also provides opportunity for leaders that couldn't serve on your ministry night. Stay at home 00:36:23.840 --> 00:36:28.820 moms now have an opportunity. People that aren't available on that night of ministry, you know, 00:36:28.880 --> 00:36:33.560 can serve on any day or time of week that they choose and open up a group. So there's, 00:36:33.800 --> 00:36:39.720 there's a lot of opportunity to actually, you know, let your members be deployed in new ways 00:36:39.720 --> 00:36:41.160 where they couldn't previously. 00:36:41.540 --> 00:36:46.400 That's, that's such an ironic story about the church in New Jersey, right? It's like 00:36:46.400 --> 00:36:52.340 New Jersey is reaching Denver with an organization that's in Dallas through their material. And so it's 00:36:52.340 --> 00:36:57.500 like three time zones are represented. It's like the, the, the five degrees of Kevin Bacon or whatever, 00:36:57.500 --> 00:37:02.780 like just fascinating. And in digital context, we see that, right? Like you may not be as familiar 00:37:02.780 --> 00:37:07.460 about digital in general, but, but the collaboration opportunities and a lot of these connection 00:37:07.460 --> 00:37:14.020 points, that's a story that we hear often in digital ministry. How many churches, uh, are, are doing 00:37:14.020 --> 00:37:21.960 this, uh, regeneration, uh, digitally that, that, that are like, are, is this, are you guys still in 00:37:21.960 --> 00:37:28.660 exploration mode? Is it experiment? Are you, are you like, uh, uh, establishing this thing and making 00:37:28.660 --> 00:37:35.300 it official? Like where, what does this look like regeneration beyond watermark actually with other 00:37:35.300 --> 00:37:41.060 churches? Yeah. So there's only a handful. So COVID forced all these churches online, you know, and, 00:37:41.600 --> 00:37:46.500 um, and here's what I would say there were, there's a very different response through the virtual 00:37:46.500 --> 00:37:51.220 offerings now than, than what happened during COVID because actually you took a bunch of people that 00:37:51.220 --> 00:37:57.120 wanted to be in person and force them online. And the response wasn't great. You know, a good share 00:37:57.120 --> 00:38:02.520 of them dropped off, but when we did the pilot groups and everybody knew what they were signing 00:38:02.520 --> 00:38:07.660 onto in the virtual world, a lot of the people that you get to sign on are already somewhat, 00:38:07.660 --> 00:38:14.200 you know, uh, uh, uh, adept technologically. Like they know that they're getting into it that way. 00:38:14.260 --> 00:38:19.060 They know what to expect. And so there were less hindrances. Everybody knew what they were signing 00:38:19.060 --> 00:38:25.640 up for. So they weren't frustrated when they weren't in person. And so, um, and so more launched that way. 00:38:25.780 --> 00:38:32.340 Now I would say almost all the churches that went digital, you know, during COVID, when they got back 00:38:32.340 --> 00:38:37.480 in person, they all shut down the digital, even we did for a season. And then we rerunced, launched some 00:38:37.480 --> 00:38:43.340 pilot groups and a few of those churches have stayed open, but we've already, and, and now just a few 00:38:43.340 --> 00:38:49.300 more of them are starting to come back online with a digital offering. So there's really only about 00:38:49.300 --> 00:38:54.820 three or four of us right now that are offering it. And because the demand so high, we have to open 00:38:54.820 --> 00:39:01.040 and close those intake windows because we're really supply driven right now by leaders. So we have 00:39:01.040 --> 00:39:06.100 leaders available to go. We have a wait list of, you know, a hundred people ready to join. 00:39:06.100 --> 00:39:09.900 Yeah. And when, when Jenny mentioned that, that kind of blew me away too. Like there, 00:39:09.980 --> 00:39:16.080 there's a waiting list of a hundred women, uh, to be part of, of a regeneration group in, 00:39:16.080 --> 00:39:21.580 in digital space. Like I'm, I'm curious, I would love to nuance this a little bit. Are they 00:39:21.580 --> 00:39:28.400 wanting the anonymity, uh, in the isolation and the privacy of doing it on digital environments? 00:39:28.620 --> 00:39:35.660 So like they're near physical and they're wanting to like, what's the, if, if you were to, uh, persona, 00:39:35.660 --> 00:39:41.960 if you were to generalize who these people are, like what's motivating these 100 women to seek 00:39:41.960 --> 00:39:48.560 out recovery in a digital environment? I think for a lot of them, it's kids. Childcare is tricky. Um, 00:39:48.560 --> 00:39:53.400 if your kids have school the next day, you might not want them to be up till nine, nine 30, 00:39:53.560 --> 00:39:59.480 depending on how far away you live, maybe 10. Um, a lot of people in my group in particular, 00:39:59.480 --> 00:40:07.200 you know, live about 45 plus minutes away from the church. So driving in rush hour, um, um, you know, 00:40:07.380 --> 00:40:13.380 to get there from work, it's super stressful. And then it's really late by the time they get home. 00:40:14.100 --> 00:40:20.440 Um, so even local, when you live in a really big state, you can be local and it can still be 00:40:20.440 --> 00:40:26.760 a drag to get there. I don't think anybody was trying to hide. Um, it was usually pretty easy. 00:40:26.940 --> 00:40:35.140 Like we had one or two, uh, people who just, you know, were evading and it was very easy to pick 00:40:35.140 --> 00:40:41.380 up on. It wasn't like the, the screen made a difference. It was, it was the same that you would 00:40:41.380 --> 00:40:45.880 have had in real life. No, she's not answering my questions. She's not really, you know, saying 00:40:45.880 --> 00:40:52.360 anything concrete. She's basic, you know, um, it wasn't, it, I didn't get the sense at all that 00:40:52.360 --> 00:40:58.700 it facilitated any hiding. Um, so here at Watermark, like we actually, that are participants. If they can 00:40:58.700 --> 00:41:03.320 show up on our ministry night, we really encourage, they have to prove to us that they really can't make 00:41:03.320 --> 00:41:08.660 it that night before we let them in. So almost none of our groups were people that could have just 00:41:08.660 --> 00:41:13.940 chosen to come on our ministry night here. You know, they have, they have legitimate reasons, 00:41:14.220 --> 00:41:20.820 you know, and, and, um, you know, people come to recovery because they're hurting, 00:41:21.320 --> 00:41:25.940 but I mean, they, they want to get well and that's what drives them to wait. And actually our list is 00:41:25.940 --> 00:41:31.460 high. We've got a little waiting. We literally had our, had our window open for one month and we've 00:41:31.460 --> 00:41:36.320 had a waiting list of 200, you know, waiting for groups to launch over the last six months. 00:41:36.640 --> 00:41:41.880 And so they're, they're just, it doesn't exist where they're at. They can't make it for whatever 00:41:41.880 --> 00:41:47.000 reason. And folks are hurting. I, there are some people that try to hide in recovery that are being 00:41:47.000 --> 00:41:53.980 forced to come to recovery. Um, so regeneration is a little bit different. And so a lot of times people 00:41:53.980 --> 00:41:59.280 go through recovery because they're court ordered, like they've been arrested. They've got to go through 00:41:59.280 --> 00:42:04.920 a 12 step program. They want to get into a 12 step program and get through. If people are just coming 00:42:04.920 --> 00:42:10.340 to check off a court ordered box here, or they're being forced to come to recovery, they're not going 00:42:10.340 --> 00:42:16.400 to come to regeneration. And part of the reason for that is that we do daily content. And most people 00:42:16.400 --> 00:42:21.860 that just want to check off a box when it becomes to doing daily content, they don't want to do that. 00:42:21.960 --> 00:42:26.880 They'll rather just go to a meeting and show up for five minutes and get their court order checklist 00:42:26.880 --> 00:42:32.140 checked off. But regeneration, that's that out of the system. You know, if people aren't ready to work 00:42:32.140 --> 00:42:37.460 on something every day, you know, it kind of, it kind of purges that. So other ministries may not 00:42:37.460 --> 00:42:42.640 have that, but for us, you know, if you really want to get into a group, you've got to demonstrate 00:42:42.640 --> 00:42:47.600 that you're willing to be present and to do the work. Fascinating. So part of this, obviously we've 00:42:47.600 --> 00:42:53.260 been talking digital and I've got non-technological people in here. So I'm going to back up and be very 00:42:53.260 --> 00:43:00.860 kind of elementary with, with my language. Digital comprises of like web 2.0, which is like social 00:43:00.860 --> 00:43:08.980 media, which is digital phones, which is zoom and metaverse virtual reality. We're talking headsets 00:43:08.980 --> 00:43:16.500 and goggles and avatars and like this completely different realm. And eventually it'll all come 00:43:16.500 --> 00:43:22.040 together into this big giant puddle, but that's a conversation for another day. And so we're, we're 00:43:22.040 --> 00:43:29.000 doing this in digital. You're experimenting with the idea. You've got four or five churches that, 00:43:29.100 --> 00:43:35.120 that are doing this in digital space. You know, part of this, and actually Nate, the conversation you 00:43:35.120 --> 00:43:41.680 and I first had months ago was, was not, yeah. I mean, digital was part of it and it's, it's one of 00:43:41.680 --> 00:43:50.680 the problems, but really like I work with churches in virtual reality and in the metaverse. And there's 00:43:50.680 --> 00:44:01.860 this huge need, um, in, in these spaces and there's nothing like I cannot find anyone recovery wise that is 00:44:01.860 --> 00:44:09.040 doing anything in this space. Meanwhile, I've got a lineup of pastors that are saying, I want recovery. 00:44:09.320 --> 00:44:14.920 I want recovery. My church needs recovery. I got people that want to do recovery in virtual reality. 00:44:14.920 --> 00:44:20.460 And there, there aren't, there aren't to date. I don't know of anyone that's actually, you know what? 00:44:20.700 --> 00:44:25.980 I know of one church that's writing their own material, uh, up down here in Fort Lauderdale, 00:44:25.980 --> 00:44:31.600 but to my knowledge, that's the first, uh, recovery initiative that's happening in, in virtual 00:44:31.600 --> 00:44:37.680 reality. And so, you know, in virtual reality, we're, we're talking about, um, very addictive, 00:44:37.680 --> 00:44:43.320 uh, environments and behaviors there. There's, uh, virtual reality bars, there's promoting of 00:44:43.320 --> 00:44:49.320 alcoholism, there's promoting of drug use, uh, pornography. Uh, there are virtual reality strip 00:44:49.320 --> 00:44:53.000 clubs where things like this are happening. There are private rooms in the back, uh, that, 00:44:53.000 --> 00:44:57.340 you know, you don't talk about it's been estimated to me. One of these virtual reality worlds is called 00:44:57.340 --> 00:45:03.960 VR chat. 40 to 50% of people allegedly in VR chat are having virtual sex at any time. I've actually 00:45:03.960 --> 00:45:10.540 had a conversation with a girl, uh, who broke down in tears because she was raped as an avatar in VR 00:45:10.540 --> 00:45:16.940 chat. We can totally unpack what actually that means. Uh, but years later, this girl is still carrying 00:45:16.940 --> 00:45:24.400 emotional and spiritual scars as a result of what happened in virtual reality. Uh, and so the need 00:45:24.400 --> 00:45:31.160 for recovery in this space is, is incredible. I got to imagine though, because nobody's going near 00:45:31.160 --> 00:45:37.140 this space, there's obstacles and there's, there's challenges going in. Uh, you know, Nate, I know you 00:45:37.140 --> 00:45:41.740 and I have had some of, some of these conversations start to maybe unpack here really, as we're moving 00:45:41.740 --> 00:45:46.520 away from digital, looking at more virtual reality, looking at more metaverse. What, what are some of 00:45:46.520 --> 00:45:51.020 these obstacles and challenges that we need to figure out how to overcome? I don't know that we've 00:45:51.020 --> 00:45:55.100 got the answers today, but I would at least love to know what the, what the questions are that we need 00:45:55.100 --> 00:45:58.980 to get answered. Yeah. Well, you, you mentioned one of them. Like I told you at the beginning, look, 00:45:59.080 --> 00:46:04.240 my, my addiction, my addiction was sexual, right? And so there's a reason why I'm not on social media. 00:46:04.580 --> 00:46:08.740 You know, there's a reason why I don't live in those worlds a ton because, you know, they could 00:46:08.740 --> 00:46:13.720 easily be a stumbling block for me. So I think using wisdom with your leaders on who can enter 00:46:13.720 --> 00:46:18.300 into certain places and what I've learned, you know, through the participation in this group that 00:46:18.300 --> 00:46:24.380 we're in is that not all, uh, not all worlds are the same, right? There are some that, that may not 00:46:24.380 --> 00:46:29.400 be the right place for specific people. There are others that are, that might be a better, 00:46:29.400 --> 00:46:37.820 a better spot to do this. So, um, I, I think what I would say is everybody, you know, from what I've 00:46:37.820 --> 00:46:43.760 understood is that people in the metaverse are looking for shared experiences, right? They're 00:46:43.760 --> 00:46:50.000 looking for social connection, they're intelligent, you know, uh, and, and those are healthy and 00:46:50.000 --> 00:46:55.100 unhealthy reasons, right? They're, they're coming in for, um, but you've all, I've also heard that 00:46:55.100 --> 00:47:01.640 they're hurting and, you know, um, if you can meet somebody with a story of life change, 00:47:01.640 --> 00:47:07.220 that's on the street, just sharing your own story of transformation. I've also understood 00:47:07.220 --> 00:47:11.740 that they're very authentic there and they're willing to talk in, and maybe the metaverse 00:47:11.740 --> 00:47:16.760 provides a level of anonymity that makes them feel more comfortable and vulnerable with even 00:47:16.760 --> 00:47:22.860 sharing. And the thought of having a living room where you can have a story of life change 00:47:22.860 --> 00:47:27.280 and people can come sit around the couch, hear a story of life change. And you've got this 00:47:27.280 --> 00:47:32.800 acclimation process where people can show up or not show up if they don't want to, but when they're 00:47:32.800 --> 00:47:36.380 ready, they move forward after they've demonstrated, they're ready to move forward. I actually think 00:47:36.380 --> 00:47:43.680 the metaverse could be a wonderful place for this. You know, if you've got a church or a house that 00:47:43.680 --> 00:47:49.280 you built there or some environment, or even just sharing your own story on the street, like people 00:47:49.280 --> 00:47:55.980 resonate with the story of someone that's gone through a painful experience that God has healed 00:47:55.980 --> 00:48:00.660 in recovery and, and they want, they want that experience themselves. And so when you can meet 00:48:00.660 --> 00:48:05.380 someone at their point of pain, there's an interest and a trust that's built where they'll listen. 00:48:05.840 --> 00:48:13.060 And, you know, um, and if you've got a process to move them slowly along that path with others that are 00:48:13.060 --> 00:48:19.460 on the same path, you have exactly what they're looking for, which is a shared experience, you know, 00:48:19.460 --> 00:48:24.360 some type of life connection, hopefully healing. If they're sick, I actually think it could be a 00:48:24.360 --> 00:48:30.980 really good, really good platform challenges. I mean, I've not been in the metaverse. I, you know, 00:48:30.980 --> 00:48:36.900 I don't know about wearing goggles for, you know, for, for an hour. Um, you know, I, 00:48:37.320 --> 00:48:43.120 I'm just not used to it. And so maybe it's not a big challenge for other people, but I'll tell you 00:48:43.120 --> 00:48:47.180 what, if you've got a couple of churches out there that are operating already, I actually think that 00:48:47.180 --> 00:48:51.420 the tool would work wonderful in this environment, you know, given the circumstances, we've got 00:48:51.420 --> 00:48:56.760 everything digitally already. And because it moves through just where people are ready, that's the 00:48:56.760 --> 00:49:00.940 nature of the steps. You know, you kind of meet people where they're at, show them where the next 00:49:00.940 --> 00:49:07.400 step is, and there's on-ramps and there's safety nets built in so that if people aren't ready, 00:49:07.560 --> 00:49:10.540 there's an off-ramp for them. And when they are ready, they can take the next step. 00:49:11.180 --> 00:49:16.700 Wearing the headset for an hour, it can be nauseating and maybe your battery doesn't last that full hour, 00:49:16.780 --> 00:49:22.660 which is why you can get the extra external battery to hook, hook up to it. But, um, I've heard from 00:49:22.660 --> 00:49:28.560 a number of different Christ-centered organizations, uh, Christ-centered recovery organizations. 00:49:28.960 --> 00:49:34.340 Jeff, we don't know who these people are. Um, they're hiding behind their avatar. They're not 00:49:34.340 --> 00:49:38.980 embracing the identity of, of who they are. They could be catfishing us. They could be faking us. 00:49:39.100 --> 00:49:45.120 They can be doing all sorts of different things. And we, we don't know it. Uh, and, and, and to be 00:49:45.120 --> 00:49:52.180 honest, like that's, that's challenging to, to me, my understanding and my operation in virtual reality. 00:49:52.580 --> 00:49:59.840 Oh my gosh. And we alluded to it, Jenny, on your side, even in digital, like the avatar not being 00:49:59.840 --> 00:50:06.220 in the same screen, that's not a weakness. That's a strength. I can get people telling me stuff at the 00:50:06.220 --> 00:50:12.040 drop of a hat in virtual reality because I'm not in the same room judging them. I don't even know what 00:50:12.040 --> 00:50:19.020 their name is. And instead of it being a weakness, lean into that and utilize it as a, as a, as a 00:50:19.020 --> 00:50:24.920 strength. So Nate, my, my question here is it, because we don't know who these people are and 00:50:24.920 --> 00:50:32.460 there's some anonymity, like, is that a true weakness within recovery organizations? Is that a 00:50:32.460 --> 00:50:39.380 potential strength that needs to get like understood and resolved? Can we spin it on its side like this? 00:50:39.380 --> 00:50:45.780 What, what is, um, what is anonymity actually do in, in recovery situations like this? 00:50:46.040 --> 00:50:50.120 Well, so a couple of things, I think there's a misnomer that you're not being catfished in person. 00:50:50.800 --> 00:50:56.240 You know, the reality, I mean, we have, we have, we have pastors that come in from other churches 00:50:56.240 --> 00:51:01.740 that need recovery that don't tell us who they are, you know, on the front side, people are putting 00:51:01.740 --> 00:51:07.260 on, people come to recovery because they've put on a face for decades, you know, and we're pretending 00:51:07.260 --> 00:51:14.460 even when we're face to face, you know, uh, one of the biggest criticism of the church today is that 00:51:14.460 --> 00:51:22.080 it's a veneer body. Like they're not real. They're not being authentic there. And so, you know, I've 00:51:22.080 --> 00:51:26.120 been, I've been in recovery groups with people that have said, Hey, I'm going to deal with this one 00:51:26.120 --> 00:51:29.220 issue, but there's this whole other part of my life that I'm not going to let you touch. 00:51:29.560 --> 00:51:35.100 And so the idea that it's somehow easier and virtual than in person, like, I don't think 00:51:35.100 --> 00:51:40.160 that's true. I think people do it in person just as much as they would do online. And maybe, 00:51:40.480 --> 00:51:45.140 maybe the avatar would let them be more open, you know, on the front side. And then what you, 00:51:45.400 --> 00:51:52.640 what you find is that as time goes on and people begin to have this connection with this group, 00:51:52.760 --> 00:51:59.300 they they'll open up more of who they are, you know, and I actually think they'll lead to 00:51:59.300 --> 00:52:04.440 authentic relationships with the real people with a reveal more of themselves. I would hope that at 00:52:04.440 --> 00:52:09.360 some point they would take their avatars down and meet in Dallas or wherever they meet, you know, 00:52:09.360 --> 00:52:14.520 long-term. I actually think it would, it would provide a level of growth for them. And of course 00:52:14.520 --> 00:52:18.480 they could hide, they could hide in person. They could hide wherever they're at. They do now, 00:52:18.480 --> 00:52:24.600 you know? And so the idea that that happens more there than other places, I've not been in the 00:52:24.600 --> 00:52:29.780 metaverse to measure that at all, but I'm doubtful that it's worse there than it is in person. 00:52:31.180 --> 00:52:34.560 Consistency, please. That's interesting. I didn't, I didn't think you'd take that spin, 00:52:34.820 --> 00:52:40.460 but I love the fact that you did. Jenny, did you have anything to contribute on that? 00:52:40.460 --> 00:52:46.480 Yeah, I was going to say, and I've also not had the privilege of entering the metaverse yet, 00:52:46.640 --> 00:52:53.080 but just based on my experience, trying to, I would say one big mistake is trying to take 00:52:53.080 --> 00:53:00.760 the exact setup that you have going, you know, in real life and have a one-to-one translation 00:53:00.760 --> 00:53:10.540 in digital or virtual. These mediums are, they're different cultures. And we figured that out really 00:53:10.540 --> 00:53:16.080 quickly when we were trying to have, you know, at the beginning of each region meeting, we usually 00:53:16.080 --> 00:53:22.280 sing, we have worship. And we tried playing a worship video and having people sing along with 00:53:22.280 --> 00:53:28.540 their screens. And it was super, super awkward and nobody likes it. And we just had to realize, 00:53:28.540 --> 00:53:36.560 okay, some things work in some formats and not in others. And I think holding loosely to the format, 00:53:36.920 --> 00:53:44.380 but clinging tightly to the underlying principles and, you know, to Christ, probably metaverse recovery 00:53:44.380 --> 00:53:49.920 will look a lot different. I don't know what that'll look like, but you have to be, you have to be in 00:53:49.920 --> 00:53:56.460 it to know it. And then, you know, you know, God, you just become all things to all people. 00:53:56.560 --> 00:54:02.520 Hey, and Jeff, here's what I, you know, the other part on hiding. One of the things that we built 00:54:02.520 --> 00:54:09.340 into regeneration, partly because you'll find that most recovery groups within churches become an 00:54:09.340 --> 00:54:14.680 insulated entity. They feel like it's the only safe place, you know, for them to share authentically. 00:54:15.060 --> 00:54:20.360 The church doesn't get it. And the pastor sends people into this black hole and they never come out 00:54:20.360 --> 00:54:24.300 and they stay there, you know, and so the people in the church say, we're not like those people. 00:54:24.300 --> 00:54:28.640 And the people in recovery say, we're not like those people. And so for us, if you go into a 00:54:28.640 --> 00:54:35.440 secular AA, you get an AA sponsor. With regeneration, we ask you to find a Christian who's in your life 00:54:35.440 --> 00:54:39.160 currently that will be in your life after recovery that's in your church. And we'll train them to 00:54:39.160 --> 00:54:44.160 mentor you. They don't have to share your same struggle. We'll train them. And so we created this 00:54:44.160 --> 00:54:49.780 bridge of a mentor that would, that would provide this connection, this link to the church. So they're 00:54:49.780 --> 00:54:54.540 not only known in the recovery group, they're known in the church so that when recovery is over, 00:54:54.880 --> 00:54:59.320 there's someone, those are story, what their plan is going forward, how they're going to share life. 00:54:59.440 --> 00:55:05.600 They there's a safe person, at least one safe person in the church. And so for us, because we've got 00:55:05.600 --> 00:55:13.760 this mentorship function built in, even in the metaverse or virtual with regeneration, we would still 00:55:13.760 --> 00:55:19.200 ask someone to find someone local, that's in their life currently, that will be in their life after 00:55:19.200 --> 00:55:24.240 recovery, you know, that would fit the criteria for mentorship that we could train, so that there 00:55:24.240 --> 00:55:30.000 would be an in person meeting with them, you know, with that mentor on a routine basis, in addition to 00:55:30.000 --> 00:55:36.240 their group and their group support. Because we do think that that in person connection is vital to 00:55:36.240 --> 00:55:42.580 essentially their integration into the in person church. Otherwise, your recovery group is going to 00:55:42.580 --> 00:55:48.100 become insulated and isolated from the church. And pastors don't want that. It's unhealthy for 00:55:48.100 --> 00:55:53.700 recovery. It's unhealthy for those groups to be, we're in recovery, because we've isolated parts of 00:55:53.700 --> 00:55:58.580 our lives from the body of Christ, quite honestly. And so we want to create those bridges. 00:55:59.220 --> 00:56:04.860 That's beautiful. Hey, this has been a great conversation. And I'm hoping, I'm sure it's going to be 00:56:04.860 --> 00:56:14.700 one of many. I was talking to the group off air, like recovery, Christ-centered recovery, mental health, 00:56:15.260 --> 00:56:21.500 empowering and equipping people to do ministry in these addictive sources of digital and virtual 00:56:21.500 --> 00:56:26.300 reality and metaverse. Like, this is going to be the drum that I'm going to bang for the next 12 to 18 00:56:26.300 --> 00:56:34.700 months. I had one conversation about this today with a digital pastor and dude just looked at me square 00:56:34.700 --> 00:56:42.380 in the eyes and it was like, I need what you're talking about. And so I love this idea of exploring 00:56:42.380 --> 00:56:47.740 it, of championing it, of helping churches get connected to this. Physical churches that are doing 00:56:47.740 --> 00:56:51.580 digital ministry, digital churches, virtual reality churches, metaverse churches. Hey, 00:56:51.580 --> 00:56:55.660 y'all should actually try virtual reality at some point. But even if you haven't, like support the 00:56:55.660 --> 00:57:00.940 ministry that's happening in these spaces. So David, or excuse me, Nate, set me up here, 00:57:02.060 --> 00:57:06.620 talk to me. Like, if somebody wants to get connected, more information on regeneration, 00:57:07.180 --> 00:57:12.620 what are some avenues that they can connect with you and the ministry that you're doing and start to 00:57:12.620 --> 00:57:16.780 even look at doing some of this in digital and virtual reality and metaverse space? 00:57:16.780 --> 00:57:20.460 Well, we'd love to have some churches test us out there. If you've got digital pastors looking to 00:57:20.460 --> 00:57:24.780 do something, we'll help them. There's really two websites that we have out there. If it's a 00:57:24.780 --> 00:57:30.300 participant just looking for help or looking to find out more about the ministry and their locations, 00:57:30.300 --> 00:57:35.900 where they're available, that's regenerationrecovery.org is where they go. If you're a pastor and 00:57:35.900 --> 00:57:41.740 looking to bring it to your church, if you go to watermarkresources.com, there's a list there for 00:57:41.740 --> 00:57:46.220 regeneration. It's specifically designed for churches to find out more about the, 00:57:46.220 --> 00:57:53.420 about the ministry and to apply it. We actually have a whole department now that is set for 00:57:53.420 --> 00:58:00.540 resourcing churches with our content. So we, we provide all kinds of training. We provide 00:58:00.540 --> 00:58:06.460 coaching from retired pastors who have dedicated their lives to developing this ministry in the 00:58:06.460 --> 00:58:12.300 retirement, you know, with other churches. We provide full support, you know, for churches that are out 00:58:12.300 --> 00:58:17.180 there. And so if you go to watermarkresources.com and click on regeneration, we actually have a 00:58:17.180 --> 00:58:23.020 conference coming up September 12th and 13th here in Dallas, you know, for the regeneration churches. 00:58:23.020 --> 00:58:26.940 There'll be people flying in from all over the country, the scores of churches coming in, 00:58:26.940 --> 00:58:31.180 where you get to actually see it in person and action, go through some training that are here. 00:58:31.180 --> 00:58:36.380 We'd love to invite you. You can also find that on watermarkresources.com if you click on conferences, 00:58:36.380 --> 00:58:43.420 but we'd love to help you. You know, we've got hard copies of our content. We've got digital copies of our content. 00:58:43.900 --> 00:58:48.140 You know, we're working with Mark here, who's in the call to help even develop 00:58:48.860 --> 00:58:54.540 an e-version of the content, you know, in the future with some supporting technology that would 00:58:54.540 --> 00:59:01.980 help with groups, you know, just even operating, you know, digitally completely. And so we'd love to help. 00:59:01.980 --> 00:59:07.820 We're here to help. We've got a whole team set up to help, really, the Big C Church, you know, with these ministries. 00:59:07.820 --> 00:59:14.380 Awesome. And so check out those websites. We'll include information and links in the show notes 00:59:14.380 --> 00:59:19.180 and description, wherever you're watching this, if you're watching it on demand, and definitely connect 00:59:19.180 --> 00:59:26.140 to that. Virtual reality churches, hit me up or connect with them directly. But because, like, 00:59:26.140 --> 00:59:31.580 we need to start experimenting and exploring what this looks like in virtual reality space. 00:59:31.580 --> 00:59:32.940 I'll coach you personally. 00:59:32.940 --> 00:59:36.460 Dude, straight from the lion's mouth. Very, very cool. 00:59:36.460 --> 00:59:41.340 And this is going to be the beginning of an ongoing conversation centered around recovery, 00:59:41.340 --> 00:59:46.860 centered around mental health in digital metaverse space. And so recovery was interesting. Somebody 00:59:46.860 --> 00:59:54.380 made the comment about, you know, coming out of the church basement and trying to bring more 00:59:54.380 --> 01:00:00.300 attention to it. And that's, I mean, honestly, that's my heart behind this as somebody that's 01:00:00.300 --> 01:00:05.420 worked alongside as resource recovery and has seen the good that it's done. And honestly, if I did more 01:00:05.420 --> 01:00:10.460 mental capacity to work on myself, I probably would acknowledge more of the issues of my own life 01:00:10.460 --> 01:00:15.900 that I need to run through recovery. But at least at this point, I'm very excited to see 01:00:16.700 --> 01:00:23.260 the difference that it's making in people's lives. And I'm excited to try to bring that to digital and 01:00:23.260 --> 01:00:28.620 energy and even metaverse virtual reality space. So thanks very much for the time of, of, of coming 01:00:28.620 --> 01:00:33.260 in here and being part of the conversation. And, uh, through DCN we'll, we'll obviously be doing more 01:00:33.260 --> 01:00:38.620 of these. So you'll be, you'll be hearing through that through digital church network, um, as more of 01:00:38.620 --> 01:00:42.780 these opportunities come up as we continue to dialogue through it. So thank you all for being 01:00:42.780 --> 01:00:46.700 here. And, uh, and so we're going to land the plane. Y'all have a good evening.