WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:04.340 I believe, and I'm going to just add this, not as a technical answer, but go, 00:00:04.520 --> 00:00:10.520 John thinks that the blockchain emerging is part of the answer to our prayer, 00:00:10.640 --> 00:00:11.720 may your kingdom come. 00:00:12.980 --> 00:00:19.780 This is a tool that will be part of the fulfillment of the answer to that prayer. 00:00:20.200 --> 00:00:21.760 Welcome to the Church Digital Podcast. 00:00:22.500 --> 00:00:26.560 Through this podcast, we'll talk about the technological innovations within the church. 00:00:26.740 --> 00:00:31.120 But more than TED for Tech itself, we'll address deeper questions. 00:00:31.880 --> 00:00:33.740 Is disciple making possible digitally? 00:00:34.800 --> 00:00:36.760 How should we approach the digital mission field? 00:00:37.520 --> 00:00:40.300 Can a biblically grounded church operate in digital space? 00:00:41.020 --> 00:00:43.320 Oh, and where does the metaverse fit into all this? 00:00:44.140 --> 00:00:48.320 Whether you're a big or small church, an established church, or a startup church plant, 00:00:49.040 --> 00:00:53.960 the Church Digital's goal is to help churches like yours learn to be a multiplying church, 00:00:54.580 --> 00:00:55.980 digitally and physically. 00:00:56.740 --> 00:01:01.320 our heart, that churches like yours will discover a newfound focus on disciple making 00:01:01.320 --> 00:01:03.640 that will revolutionize your church. 00:01:04.200 --> 00:01:06.940 And now, here's your host, Jeff Reed. 00:01:07.300 --> 00:01:07.800 All right. 00:01:07.840 --> 00:01:09.800 Hey, welcome to the Church Digital Podcast. 00:01:10.400 --> 00:01:12.180 It's a pleasure to be here with you today. 00:01:12.260 --> 00:01:16.240 Jeff Reed, once again, founder of the Church Digital, co-founder of Digital Church Network. 00:01:18.060 --> 00:01:18.900 Man, I'll just be honest. 00:01:18.960 --> 00:01:24.060 I love seeing God do stuff digitally in virtual reality and in the metaverse. 00:01:24.060 --> 00:01:25.540 Like, it's funny. 00:01:25.680 --> 00:01:32.180 Romans talks about how, you know, God's unforeseen characteristics are in moving around nature. 00:01:32.900 --> 00:01:39.280 And I've often have felt in the past months that if you actually look back and see what God is doing 00:01:39.280 --> 00:01:44.760 in digital spaces, in metaverse spaces, that you can see the hand of God moving among them. 00:01:45.460 --> 00:01:47.960 You know, I say that and some people think, Jeff, that's crazy. 00:01:48.060 --> 00:01:49.580 Yeah, maybe it is a little crazy. 00:01:49.680 --> 00:01:50.000 Yes. 00:01:50.580 --> 00:01:50.900 Yes. 00:01:51.240 --> 00:01:52.220 Digital is toxic. 00:01:52.420 --> 00:01:52.700 Yes. 00:01:52.840 --> 00:01:54.140 Digital is isolationist. 00:01:54.680 --> 00:01:55.000 Yes. 00:01:55.700 --> 00:01:57.460 Virtual reality does feel like a video game. 00:01:57.520 --> 00:01:58.560 You're not wrong. 00:01:59.400 --> 00:02:03.160 But that doesn't mean that God can't move in and amongst those spaces. 00:02:04.480 --> 00:02:06.640 And so anyway, yeah, and a lot of times, like, I'll just be honest. 00:02:06.660 --> 00:02:06.920 I know. 00:02:06.980 --> 00:02:07.660 I know I sound crazy. 00:02:07.760 --> 00:02:08.320 It's cool. 00:02:08.480 --> 00:02:12.680 I mean, in this conversation today, this podcast, this is going to sound a little crazy. 00:02:13.320 --> 00:02:14.000 It's interesting. 00:02:14.100 --> 00:02:19.620 Through Leadership Network, one of the jobs that I get to do, get the pleasure to do with, 00:02:19.800 --> 00:02:27.020 we get to talk about metaverse church and so do podcasts and live shows and create content, 00:02:27.560 --> 00:02:30.860 starting the conversation around metaverse. 00:02:30.980 --> 00:02:32.660 Now, predominantly, we talk virtual reality. 00:02:32.760 --> 00:02:33.980 We talk some augmented reality. 00:02:34.100 --> 00:02:36.080 We talk some artificial intelligence. 00:02:36.560 --> 00:02:39.740 But you know what we've actually started focusing a lot on now is blockchain and crypto, 00:02:40.220 --> 00:02:41.360 cryptocurrencies, of course. 00:02:41.800 --> 00:02:47.980 And what's interesting to me is that the average American has no understanding of blockchain 00:02:47.980 --> 00:02:48.480 and crypto. 00:02:48.480 --> 00:02:51.340 The average church leader, probably less than the average American. 00:02:51.940 --> 00:02:56.760 Like, at least people understand the concept of virtual reality, put on the headset, see 00:02:56.760 --> 00:02:57.840 a virtual world. 00:02:57.960 --> 00:03:02.460 You may not have experienced it, but you've seen the trailers from Lawnmower Man back in 00:03:02.460 --> 00:03:03.520 the 90s or whatever. 00:03:03.960 --> 00:03:11.040 And so at least the understanding of virtual reality, what it is, is not a foreign concept. 00:03:11.920 --> 00:03:14.800 Blockchain and crypto is a foreign concept to the church leader today. 00:03:14.800 --> 00:03:21.080 And what's interesting is actually, I think it has more power in blockchain and crypto to 00:03:21.080 --> 00:03:23.280 revolutionize the church than virtual reality does. 00:03:23.640 --> 00:03:26.700 I'm not sure if it has more than augmented reality, but time will tell with that one. 00:03:26.700 --> 00:03:31.840 But there is so much potential within blockchain and crypto, not within the technology in itself. 00:03:31.920 --> 00:03:42.960 But once you start to get into DAOs, decentralized autonomous organizations, which are which is this function that gives the power of institutions and corporations. 00:03:43.200 --> 00:03:57.760 It gives it to individuals and you start to get into NFTs or really smart contracts that that is this relationship where others can invest into a DAO organization and create a partnership, a bond towards a common goal. 00:03:58.140 --> 00:04:05.300 It's really the well, if I were launching a micro church in 2023, I would build it on a DAO. 00:04:05.300 --> 00:04:12.260 As a matter of fact, we're actually wrestling with moving some of our organizations through Digital Church Network to a DAO. 00:04:12.620 --> 00:04:17.980 I just recently met with Joey Santos, who was on a podcast maybe a month ago, church at the VR bar. 00:04:18.220 --> 00:04:35.660 We're talking about turning that into a DAO, an organization that's funded on blockchain and crypto and is or funded on crypto, built upon the blockchain and empowering people to invest in it and be part of its ministry through an agreement of a smart contract. 00:04:36.160 --> 00:04:42.560 Now, the words that just came out of my mouth are probably exploding some heads because you don't understand anything that I just said. 00:04:42.840 --> 00:04:43.400 That's cool. 00:04:43.920 --> 00:04:51.400 That's why we're having this podcast right here, because right now we are starting with a basic conversation centered around blockchain and crypto. 00:04:51.800 --> 00:04:55.980 What is this and what is the ministry implication that it can have? 00:04:56.020 --> 00:05:03.360 And so we're bringing into this a couple of people that are actually becoming very good friends as we're exploring this space together. 00:05:03.360 --> 00:05:12.460 We're bringing in John Dangler, who's an entrepreneur of sorts, well-built bikes, a business as mission model up in Tampa, Florida. 00:05:12.860 --> 00:05:14.260 He also works with Brave Cities. 00:05:14.420 --> 00:05:16.480 You may remember Taylor McCall. 00:05:16.580 --> 00:05:21.940 We did a podcast with Taylor talking about Brave Cities, I don't know, maybe back in April or May. 00:05:22.580 --> 00:05:28.540 And so John Dangler is part of that organization, Brave Cities. 00:05:28.540 --> 00:05:45.180 We're also bringing in Jason Dukes, he runs a business as well called The Decent Co., works with secular organizations, corporations and churches, helping them understand blockchain, crypto and a lot of this metaverse technology. 00:05:45.680 --> 00:05:49.840 These two are incredible together. 00:05:50.500 --> 00:05:53.180 The balance of communication between them. 00:05:53.280 --> 00:05:58.240 We've done several of these conversations, roundtables, dialogues through Digital Church Network. 00:05:58.640 --> 00:06:06.880 And I wanted to share some of those conversations with y'all through the Church Digital Podcast because it really is that good. 00:06:07.240 --> 00:06:18.360 And so if you have no understanding of what blockchain and crypto is, listen to this, watch this, take this in and start to be part of that conversation right now. 00:06:18.820 --> 00:06:31.400 Because not only can it help your ministry, I believe it can revolutionize your ministry and actually bring it closer to maybe the biblical model of what church should be. 00:06:31.860 --> 00:06:32.100 All right. 00:06:32.100 --> 00:06:35.620 So for the conversation, I'm bringing in John Dangler from Brave Cities, Well Built Dykes. 00:06:35.920 --> 00:06:38.280 Bringing in Jason Dukes from The Decent Co. 00:06:38.340 --> 00:06:43.620 And of course, myself, Jeff, with The Church Digital, with Digital Church Network. 00:06:44.340 --> 00:06:47.860 In a conversation, I'm calling Blockchain and Crypto One-on-One. 00:06:48.300 --> 00:06:49.080 One-on-one. 00:06:49.560 --> 00:06:51.780 One-on-one would be a completely different context. 00:06:52.480 --> 00:06:54.340 Blockchain and Crypto, 101. 00:06:54.700 --> 00:06:55.240 Okay, everybody. 00:06:55.480 --> 00:06:55.900 Here you go. 00:06:56.380 --> 00:06:58.220 So, hey, we're doing a roundtable. 00:06:59.660 --> 00:07:03.540 We're the only three people who showed up at the roundtable. 00:07:03.700 --> 00:07:04.820 That's also awkward. 00:07:05.000 --> 00:07:05.900 Nobody loves us. 00:07:06.700 --> 00:07:09.380 No, but, you know, so, hey, we're still going to do the conversation. 00:07:09.980 --> 00:07:14.140 And I'm the happiest person on the Zoom call right now because I get 100% of the attention. 00:07:14.720 --> 00:07:31.880 And so I'm looking forward to digging in here, having this roundtable conversation, talking about blockchain and crypto, which is interesting because this may actually be like the telling factor where there's this potential wave coming in, blockchain and crypto. 00:07:31.880 --> 00:07:36.980 So, and it's really unknown in church concept. 00:07:37.160 --> 00:07:45.100 And, you know, even in my own life, like there's things that I get, but there's things that I'm like, man, I feel like there's more potential that even I'm not seeing. 00:07:45.220 --> 00:07:47.060 So I'm looking forward to this conversation. 00:07:47.620 --> 00:07:52.540 Hey, let me introduce a couple people that are growing in relationship with me. 00:07:52.700 --> 00:07:58.580 They're relatively new, but I, both of them are incredibly passionate about this subject. 00:07:58.580 --> 00:08:00.560 And I'm excited for this, this conversation. 00:08:00.560 --> 00:08:04.740 We got John Dengler up above me in the Zoom call. 00:08:04.820 --> 00:08:05.520 Hey, John, how you doing? 00:08:06.160 --> 00:08:06.660 I'm good. 00:08:07.220 --> 00:08:07.960 Thanks for having me. 00:08:08.620 --> 00:08:08.940 Awesome. 00:08:09.720 --> 00:08:19.740 John, do you want to maybe 30 seconds, just tell a little bit about yourself, kind of what you do there in Tampa, loosely connected with Tampa Underground and other things here in Tampa. 00:08:19.980 --> 00:08:21.640 But, man, just tell a little bit about your story. 00:08:23.180 --> 00:08:27.180 Well, yeah, so I'm, I'm in Tampa. 00:08:27.460 --> 00:08:36.640 I, I, my, my journey in faith has a, I, not a unique, but a specific origin. 00:08:36.860 --> 00:08:42.380 One night in college, I took a ton of LSD and I met God and I've never been the same. 00:08:43.120 --> 00:08:44.860 And then I started. 00:08:44.860 --> 00:08:45.880 Don't try this at home, kids. 00:08:46.680 --> 00:08:48.100 I just want to put that this way. 00:08:48.600 --> 00:08:57.040 No, so, so, so, so I, I started digging into, I actually converted or switched my major to religious studies. 00:08:57.040 --> 00:09:01.740 It was like, I want to know what everyone on the planet has to say about this experience and what matters and what's good. 00:09:02.600 --> 00:09:07.760 Um, didn't get plugged in with any kind of church community or anything for a good amount of time. 00:09:07.760 --> 00:09:13.340 Just started reading the New Testament, Old Testament, and taking Jesus very seriously. 00:09:13.340 --> 00:09:17.620 That was somehow central to this message I got on this experience. 00:09:18.380 --> 00:09:22.520 And, uh, and studying the world religions, want to know what everybody thinks. 00:09:22.520 --> 00:09:44.160 And then that would lead me to, um, eventually come into this work that is now the well, this nonprofit that we run, which is somehow I came to believe that God's heart and presence was wrapped up in the poor, the materially poor, uh, Tampa, Florida has a very high homeless population. 00:09:44.160 --> 00:09:47.060 I started making up a bunch of excuses to hang out with these folks. 00:09:47.400 --> 00:09:51.620 And this is more than any, um, church service or anything like that. 00:09:51.680 --> 00:09:57.800 This is the place that I really felt like I, I had real encounter, uh, and presence with God and with neighbor. 00:09:57.960 --> 00:10:04.460 And so I, uh, built this nonprofit that we now have called the well, we do a lot of things you'd expect with poor folks. 00:10:04.460 --> 00:10:05.540 We do, we share food. 00:10:05.540 --> 00:10:08.940 We have some housing for folks that, um, we're living on the streets. 00:10:08.940 --> 00:10:15.420 We have, uh, some community gardens where folks work together to grow food, a bunch of other little projects. 00:10:15.420 --> 00:10:21.940 We also run, um, a social enterprise called well, but bikes, uh, we have a nonprofit bike shop. 00:10:21.940 --> 00:10:33.200 We sell refurbished bikes at affordable prices and then take all the services, sales revenue and invest it into an earn a bike program so that people that don't have funds can come in and earn their bike through community service hours. 00:10:33.300 --> 00:10:37.640 We might have them work in one of our community gardens or something as a way to purchase their bike with time. 00:10:38.320 --> 00:10:46.100 Um, and my, uh, I will say along the way I formed a little intentional community. 00:10:46.100 --> 00:10:48.120 This is where this nonprofit grew out of. 00:10:48.180 --> 00:11:02.280 And, um, I'm foreshadowing a bit of what will come to be my interest in DAOs because when I heard of blockchain and decentralized autonomous organizations, I said, that is what we were always trying to do as a faith community. 00:11:02.780 --> 00:11:19.680 And now it is possible technically and scalable at a way that, uh, was never conceivable when we were doing it in our little family room with 12 sweaty dudes living in one house, trying to love our neighbors experiencing material poverty. 00:11:20.020 --> 00:11:26.560 Um, and so the, well, our nonprofit really emerged out of that work and I'll leave it at that for now. 00:11:26.860 --> 00:11:42.520 Um, but yeah, we're just out here doing our best to, you know, embody, uh, the presence and work of Jesus and, and try to build that vision, that prayer that is your kingdom come here in Tampa as it is in heaven. 00:11:43.600 --> 00:11:44.980 Tampa as it is in heaven. 00:11:45.060 --> 00:11:45.400 It's funny. 00:11:45.400 --> 00:11:53.620 I, John, I met John through some mutual friends and I was talking with the mutual friends and I said, yeah, I'm really looking for people who think outside of the box. 00:11:53.900 --> 00:11:57.280 And our mutual friend said, oh, John's not an outside of the box. 00:11:57.400 --> 00:11:57.760 Thank her. 00:11:58.060 --> 00:12:00.460 He's a guy that's going to burn the box to the ground. 00:12:00.540 --> 00:12:02.900 He's going to jump up and down, stomp it into the ground. 00:12:02.900 --> 00:12:05.320 And then he's going to do whatever he wants to do. 00:12:05.580 --> 00:12:09.560 And I was like, that's exactly, that's exactly who I'm looking for. 00:12:09.580 --> 00:12:11.940 And so excited to bring John into this conversation. 00:12:11.940 --> 00:12:14.620 And then we've got, yeah, get what you asked for. 00:12:15.120 --> 00:12:17.500 Uh, and then we're bringing in, uh, Jason Dukes as well. 00:12:17.680 --> 00:12:22.340 Uh, Jason, why don't you talk about, talk about your company, talk about yourself a little bit of your story. 00:12:22.600 --> 00:12:22.820 Yeah. 00:12:22.860 --> 00:12:25.300 So grew up in, uh, inner city, New Orleans. 00:12:25.540 --> 00:12:27.960 My dad pastored a mostly black church there. 00:12:28.240 --> 00:12:31.480 And, um, uh, that was an incredible heritage. 00:12:31.480 --> 00:12:39.780 Ended up in, uh, college where I went to college in West Tennessee, which was slightly different than inner city, New Orleans. 00:12:40.280 --> 00:12:47.700 And, uh, kind of woke up to the reality that the church didn't look as much as community focused as what I had grown up with. 00:12:47.700 --> 00:12:50.600 And, um, ended up in Orlando. 00:12:50.600 --> 00:12:56.120 I was college pastor for first Orlando teaching, coaching, teaching high school and coaching basketball. 00:12:57.120 --> 00:13:03.720 Um, and ended up getting asked to do, um, a church start and winter garden. 00:13:03.960 --> 00:13:11.120 And, um, this was 2002 and, uh, did that, did the church start. 00:13:11.120 --> 00:13:14.240 And, um, it was a lot of fun, man. 00:13:14.320 --> 00:13:24.100 And, and just really was kind of one of those things where we began just to tell people, we're not going to add, uh, church to your activity. 00:13:24.100 --> 00:13:26.240 We're going to help you be the church in your activity. 00:13:26.240 --> 00:13:31.580 And we really, it was like 2003, 2004, we started coming up. 00:13:31.740 --> 00:13:40.700 We, I don't know if, if, if other people were saying it or not, but we were just focusing on the metaphor of living sin and what that meant. 00:13:40.700 --> 00:13:49.060 And so, um, we paired up with a few other guys in Lakeland and Tampa that started a network called reproducingchurches.com. 00:13:49.880 --> 00:13:55.520 It ended up being in 24 cities and helping to do a lot of church starting and church repurposing. 00:13:55.900 --> 00:13:57.440 Uh, we didn't mean to do that. 00:13:57.560 --> 00:13:59.140 We kind of stumbled into it. 00:13:59.760 --> 00:14:06.200 Um, and then I did some writing for that network that got published and live sense, stuff like that. 00:14:06.200 --> 00:14:11.660 Um, fast forward a little bit and we like, I love John's story. 00:14:11.740 --> 00:14:15.180 We, we, we had had a vision to be the church in the marketplace. 00:14:15.180 --> 00:14:21.800 So we started an S core that, that started a cafe that has multiple locations. 00:14:21.940 --> 00:14:28.180 We started an aquaponics farm that now has two locations as well as, is two in Africa. 00:14:29.180 --> 00:14:34.360 Um, all this stuff still going, it's really neat and incredible how those leaders have continued to go with it. 00:14:34.540 --> 00:14:36.940 But in 2013, we got a curve ball. 00:14:37.060 --> 00:14:40.620 We ended up, uh, helping with a church repurpose situation in Mississippi. 00:14:41.140 --> 00:14:45.400 And then I got recommended to a church family in the Nashville area. 00:14:46.160 --> 00:14:53.100 Um, and it was odd because I, I wasn't really wanting to go back into the mega church side of things, 00:14:53.100 --> 00:14:58.820 but this church family was wanting to create multiple neighborhood churches that weren't video venue, 00:14:58.820 --> 00:15:00.940 but really loved their neighborhood. 00:15:00.940 --> 00:15:09.760 And so I was just hired to help kind of expand, um, their reach mainly because there were dying churches who were handing them keys and saying, 00:15:09.860 --> 00:15:11.300 we don't know what to do with our building. 00:15:12.080 --> 00:15:14.360 And so, you know, the church is a who, not a what. 00:15:14.480 --> 00:15:21.320 And so we just helped take the what and try to re-engage with the who and, and some cool things happened out of that. 00:15:21.700 --> 00:15:34.140 So fast forward to 2020 and, um, you know, my COVID hits, my son graduates from college and we take him out West for a trip once everybody's traveling again. 00:15:34.140 --> 00:15:45.220 And, and I just felt like this, you know, I mean, everybody says God's never going to tell you to leave something unless you have something, but, um, I felt like he did. 00:15:45.440 --> 00:15:49.680 And so we exited, there was also your ship shipped with that mega church. 00:15:49.680 --> 00:15:57.880 And so we just felt like it was a good time to exit and get out of the way of whatever that, those, that new leadership would, might want to do. 00:15:58.000 --> 00:16:16.160 And so we did, we weren't the only one, but we did and, and, um, uh, four or five months later, I think it was, I started a company and I had already been messing around with crypto and investments and, um, it gotten into NFTs. 00:16:16.160 --> 00:16:24.640 And, uh, and so I started a company called the decent co it's, um, life giving NFT, DAO, crypto and metaverse strategy. 00:16:25.480 --> 00:16:33.960 Uh, we also highlight, um, champions and innovators in the web three space through a podcast called Decentra five. 00:16:34.300 --> 00:16:44.820 And then we're doing some DAO investment concepts with some very specific everyday use case, um, utility, uh, with tech and with those communities. 00:16:44.820 --> 00:16:54.220 And so those are the things we're working on, but I love the church and I love the nonprofit world that I've done a lot of consulting and strategic leadership in. 00:16:54.220 --> 00:17:00.800 And, and so I, I, I, I about, uh, I don't know, I did take a break just being honest. 00:17:00.800 --> 00:17:05.820 Uh, we, everybody took a break during COVID, but we took an extended break. 00:17:06.520 --> 00:17:10.280 Um, we helped a micro church start in a neighborhood here in town. 00:17:10.280 --> 00:17:13.560 Cause there's a lot of people in Nashville that are kind of saying, screw the church. 00:17:13.560 --> 00:17:16.000 And, uh, if I can say that. 00:17:16.000 --> 00:17:25.860 And so the, um, we're finding that some of the micro church concepts are engaging to Jesus followers as well as not Jesus followers. 00:17:25.860 --> 00:17:29.940 And so we encouraged that and that started and handed that off. 00:17:29.940 --> 00:17:44.040 And then we just dove back into the company and I just kept looking around going, I gotta, I gotta re-engage somewhere, but I don't, I just, I want to help the nonprofits and the churches not miss the decentralized opportunity because Jesus was decentralized. 00:17:44.040 --> 00:17:48.140 And so, you know, so how do we, how do we engage that way? 00:17:48.220 --> 00:18:03.860 Um, and, uh, but you know how that goes and, uh, you know, people want your time and, and so, you know, I'm, I'm doing the best I can with that as well as trying to pay the bills. 00:18:03.860 --> 00:18:13.460 And, and so it just, it's just been a blast and we've launched some people, some acclaimed photographers and artists and singers, songwriters into the NFT space. 00:18:13.460 --> 00:18:20.340 We've done some tech concepts and companies, um, Ryan Tutter, for instance, somebody that we launched into the space. 00:18:20.340 --> 00:18:43.020 And so like, it's a, it's been a cool journey and we're just trying now to figure out, um, how do we, how do we go from here, but how do we also help the church and the big C church and nonprofits pay attention to what is available, but also what the natives of crypto and web three are doing because it's a cultural shift. 00:18:43.020 --> 00:18:47.360 I, I'm calling it the second Renaissance and a decentralized revolution. 00:18:47.360 --> 00:18:57.400 I don't know what anybody else is calling it, but I really think genuinely think we've begun, um, a second Renaissance and a decentralized revolution like the industrial revolution. 00:18:57.860 --> 00:18:58.340 Yeah. 00:18:58.500 --> 00:19:01.080 Oh, there's some, some great equations there. 00:19:01.140 --> 00:19:08.620 And so you've got two micro guys, uh, John and Jason who are having this conversation, by the way, Justin's a micro guy. 00:19:09.220 --> 00:19:17.160 Um, Jay, I don't, I don't, I mean, I don't remember talking micro with you a couple of times that we've talked, but, uh, no, not too much, but it's interesting. 00:19:17.160 --> 00:19:23.660 So out of the five on here, and, and I often, I view digital as a decentralized model. 00:19:23.660 --> 00:19:31.140 And actually I feel more comfortable touting that model as opposed to, you know, the more typical digital approach. 00:19:31.140 --> 00:19:33.860 And, and so it's, it'll be an interesting conversation. 00:19:33.860 --> 00:19:44.880 I, and I, I totally want to come back to the, uh, Jesus and live say, I forget the word you said, but it's equated Christ towards a decentralized, uh, view of ministry. 00:19:44.880 --> 00:19:46.420 And so that's, that's interesting. 00:19:46.420 --> 00:19:48.460 Maybe we'll come back to that at the end. 00:19:48.720 --> 00:19:56.520 Um, but Hey, let's, um, let's start to, to put some, uh, some meat on this, by the way, Justin, Jay, you guys have, have come in. 00:19:56.520 --> 00:19:56.900 Awesome. 00:19:57.380 --> 00:19:58.460 Uh, glad you're here. 00:19:58.460 --> 00:20:01.080 You get to represent, uh, like the average person here. 00:20:01.360 --> 00:20:04.200 So feel free to throw some questions in the chat. 00:20:04.680 --> 00:20:09.940 Um, somewhere along the way, we'll, we'll mix them in and probably open up for questions closer to the end. 00:20:09.940 --> 00:20:19.840 But, um, you know, John, uh, why don't you, why don't we start off with, with you a little bit, just even putting, cause remember, this is the intro level conversation. 00:20:20.180 --> 00:20:30.340 There's a lot of people who don't understand anything on, on blockchain or crypto and, and DAOs and, and any of the things that, that you guys are, are touting and running with. 00:20:30.340 --> 00:20:36.800 So John, just maybe, uh, intro level here, blockchain, what, what exactly are, are we talking about when we say this? 00:20:37.300 --> 00:20:39.360 Um, yeah, that's a good question. 00:20:39.940 --> 00:20:46.300 Um, well, at some level, um, is a, let's just say it's a, there's a ledger. 00:20:46.300 --> 00:20:54.840 It's a ledger that is contained on, uh, many that we all hold that many nodes hold the same ledger, right? 00:20:54.840 --> 00:21:04.740 So it's, it's in some level, not, um, like manipulatable because it's replicated across so many different machines, right? 00:21:05.060 --> 00:21:09.980 Um, this is the, the innovation and the genius of what was really Bitcoin. 00:21:09.980 --> 00:21:12.820 And then a lot of things that have like followed suit. 00:21:12.820 --> 00:21:24.240 I, I, I've been particularly interested in what's been made possible by the Ethereum network, um, because they've taken ledger to a, let's just say a computer. 00:21:24.480 --> 00:21:37.700 So they've, they've added programmability to this ledger that now is a computer that is able to make commitments and keep commitments that we are able to make commitments on. 00:21:38.420 --> 00:21:41.200 Um, and I'll just tease out a little bit here. 00:21:41.320 --> 00:21:50.860 What I think is really, uh, and I'm sure we'll get to this, but just to tease out some things that excite me about this is, you know, there's a lot of things we can look to in history. 00:21:51.320 --> 00:21:54.120 Um, so you have, there's things that we call law. 00:21:54.420 --> 00:21:56.300 There's things that we call code. 00:21:56.880 --> 00:22:00.560 Um, and, and these words are often interchangeable. 00:22:00.560 --> 00:22:04.100 Like you have the code of, uh, Hammurabi or whatever, right? 00:22:04.100 --> 00:22:07.400 You have the, the, a code of ethic, a code of conduct. 00:22:07.520 --> 00:22:12.520 And then, and then, but we think of coders like writing, writing code as well. 00:22:12.560 --> 00:22:18.060 But we also have rules that we live by rules, commandments, precepts, things like this. 00:22:18.380 --> 00:22:31.200 And so there's actually ways in which we can now, because of these ledgers and because of this, um, let's say virtual machine that is being built across many, many computational devices. 00:22:31.500 --> 00:22:39.780 We have the ability to, um, encode commitments and convictions with one another. 00:22:39.780 --> 00:22:54.560 And I think, and I'll just leave it at this as a teaser presents major, uh, possibilities for a decentralized movement of Jesus people going, there's a, there's commitments that we want to make. 00:22:54.640 --> 00:22:56.700 There's convictions that we have. 00:22:56.760 --> 00:22:59.100 There's ways that governance should be distributed. 00:22:59.320 --> 00:23:09.760 There's ways that this isn't, this doesn't need to be centralized on some pastoral leadership figure, but that we can, as a body of Christ, uh, remain faithful to the people. 00:23:09.780 --> 00:23:23.280 And I, and I go, I think this is, I believe, and I'm going to just add this, not as a technical answer, but go, John thinks that the, the blockchain emerging is part of the answer to our prayer. 00:23:23.380 --> 00:23:24.480 May your kingdom come. 00:23:25.740 --> 00:23:32.560 This is part, this is a tool that will be part of the fulfillment of the answer to that prayer. 00:23:33.340 --> 00:23:36.960 So, so, so for you, like it's, it's, it's to the level of. 00:23:37.460 --> 00:23:39.620 Deeply, um, theologically insignificant. 00:23:40.660 --> 00:23:41.140 Interesting. 00:23:41.860 --> 00:24:01.820 So, so the decentralization that, that has happened as a result of, uh, blockchain removing the authority away from the professional Christians or the priests and instead giving it back to the people, the accountability lying with the people through blockchain. 00:24:01.820 --> 00:24:05.360 You're viewing it as like kingdom come level type of thing. 00:24:05.360 --> 00:24:06.780 I, I, I, yeah, I do. 00:24:06.840 --> 00:24:16.660 And I'm, by the way, this is, uh, for the, for the church construct, but also just like for the rest of the world, what I think the Bible discusses is the principalities and powers. 00:24:17.060 --> 00:24:25.160 Like this is gonna, this is gonna matter for every centralized power, every government, every institution, everything that exists. 00:24:25.160 --> 00:24:32.120 It's like, there is a way in which we've, we've relied on a strong man to guide and lead and whatever. 00:24:32.720 --> 00:24:39.800 And that is no longer gonna be the case, um, that, that power will be distributed. 00:24:39.800 --> 00:24:43.360 And we actually now have a tool to do it technically. 00:24:43.580 --> 00:24:47.100 And people have been trying to do this for thousands of years. 00:24:47.100 --> 00:24:49.220 We've been trying to figure out mechanisms for this. 00:24:49.220 --> 00:24:51.240 And we now have a tool that can do it. 00:24:51.280 --> 00:25:02.060 And there is an apocalypse happening to everything we've, I mean, things that we thought would never be able to change are going to transform so rapidly because of this. 00:25:02.060 --> 00:25:23.640 And, and it's a wave that I don't think enough, I mean, people do not, they do not realize the import of what's about to happen and what is currently happening with the district, the distribution of will, um, that is taking place and the buckle up, buckle up for what's about to happen. 00:25:23.860 --> 00:25:31.300 Now, Jason, I, you know, I, I feel like I say blockchain and crypto, the two words side by side a lot. 00:25:31.300 --> 00:25:42.040 Do they, does crypto, does it, I know it operates outside of that, but is there a, is there a congruence where they operate together very well? 00:25:42.040 --> 00:25:49.260 Or when you look at crypto, maybe even define what it is and, and talk some about what that relationship could be between blockchain and crypto. 00:25:50.020 --> 00:25:50.880 Yeah, it's a good question. 00:25:51.000 --> 00:25:53.980 I mean, uh, you know, the blockchain makes crypto possible. 00:25:54.400 --> 00:25:55.380 It's a currency. 00:25:55.700 --> 00:26:04.660 And, and, and I think that's one of the hurdles for mainstream adoption and even people that I think John may, he may disagree or agree. 00:26:04.660 --> 00:26:14.140 I don't know, but, but I agree with him that I think this is fundamentally core to who we are culturally and who we are as people. 00:26:15.100 --> 00:26:19.720 Um, and I, I, I really do think that the decentralized nature of it. 00:26:19.720 --> 00:26:21.620 So I want to say that up front. 00:26:21.740 --> 00:26:30.380 I, I, I love that, how he phrased that, um, from a standpoint theologically and, and just even from a humanity and existence standpoint. 00:26:30.380 --> 00:26:46.640 But, but we, I think for humanity as a whole to rep, to, to welcome the blockchain and what it, what it offers, um, one of the hurdles among many is going to have to be realizing that the, that crypto is money. 00:26:47.300 --> 00:26:56.020 It's not, uh, it's, it's not monopoly money, nor is it, um, nor is it fake money. 00:26:56.020 --> 00:27:00.080 Uh, in fact, it actually happens probably not, no, let me rephrase that. 00:27:00.260 --> 00:27:15.400 There are select, uh, versions of it that actually have probably more legitimate legitimacy than the fiat dollar, than the yen or the pound or the ruble or the American or Canadian dollar or the euro. 00:27:15.400 --> 00:27:26.000 Um, but all that to say, if you really get purist as an economist, it's always about bartering. 00:27:26.020 --> 00:27:26.560 Right. 00:27:26.720 --> 00:27:34.800 Value, value is in what gets traded and what someone's willing to give for that trade, if that makes sense. 00:27:35.340 --> 00:27:42.260 And so crypto is a currency that has been given value by what you're able to trade it for. 00:27:42.260 --> 00:27:52.420 And so the various blockchains that exist, and like John said, Bitcoin was the first, and, uh, it was, it was invented in 09, 08, 09. 00:27:53.620 --> 00:27:57.820 Um, it really got out in the open between 12 and 14. 00:27:57.820 --> 00:28:11.460 And then in 2017 is when Ethereum got out in the open, but in 2015 is when the, like the head of consensus, for instance, um, it's one of the big, uh, defined finance concepts. 00:28:11.460 --> 00:28:17.820 They, well, they build tech tools, but, uh, he was at a conference in 2015 where Ethereum was talked about. 00:28:18.420 --> 00:28:25.640 And one of the guys stood up and told all the banking executives there that all of their grandchildren were not going to have bank accounts. 00:28:25.640 --> 00:28:29.540 They were going to have digital wallets either on their phone or their glasses. 00:28:30.900 --> 00:28:33.580 And all the bank execs laughed, right? 00:28:33.700 --> 00:28:45.500 So, um, when you talk about the strong man, one of the strong men is, is, and, and one, one that will be disrupted significantly in the, in this decentralized revolution will be the banking system. 00:28:45.500 --> 00:28:46.780 But why? 00:28:46.940 --> 00:28:48.020 Because it's a currency. 00:28:48.020 --> 00:29:00.780 I mean, and so like tomorrow, uh, Jeff tomorrow, um, the Senator that's from Wyoming and I'm drawing a blank on her name, but she's a part of a bipartisan group presenting. 00:29:00.900 --> 00:29:07.020 A bill before Congress to introduce crypto as a legitimate asset in the American financial system. 00:29:07.400 --> 00:29:10.220 And, and so it could be significant. 00:29:10.220 --> 00:29:12.020 I mean, I, you know, we'll see how people react. 00:29:12.020 --> 00:29:18.280 I can tell you that there'll be a whole lot of voters in November that won't vote for people that don't take crypto seriously. 00:29:18.280 --> 00:29:21.660 But, but again, I say that not to make a political statement. 00:29:21.660 --> 00:29:26.300 I say it to the answering question that it's just money, right? 00:29:26.380 --> 00:29:27.780 Like that's what crypto is. 00:29:28.000 --> 00:29:30.920 And so the blockchain is like the checkbook for it, right? 00:29:31.120 --> 00:29:41.680 It's just happens to be a public checkbook and it's a public checkbook that isn't held by one person, but is actually validated and reconciled by multiple people all over the world. 00:29:42.000 --> 00:29:46.980 It's almost like, remember when we used to get, remember when text messages, or even beepers, right? 00:29:47.040 --> 00:29:48.320 Remember if you had a beeper? 00:29:48.900 --> 00:29:55.740 Remember when beepers were around, or if you had, when text message first came out and people would start sending chain text, right? 00:29:55.740 --> 00:30:00.580 And they would say, hey, I'm sending this to you, you send this to 10 people, and so on and so forth. 00:30:01.060 --> 00:30:04.480 That's kind of a simple way to understand the blockchain. 00:30:04.760 --> 00:30:08.020 It's not that, but it's that kind of thinking. 00:30:08.020 --> 00:30:18.000 I'm going to, I'm going to send out this, this, this transaction and multiple people are going to reconcile and validate this transaction in this ledger. 00:30:18.340 --> 00:30:24.880 And like John said, Ethereum was, was a layer one is, is the term people use. 00:30:25.200 --> 00:30:28.020 It's another blockchain like Bitcoin. 00:30:28.260 --> 00:30:35.740 And then now there are multiple blockchains, just like there'll be multiple metaverses, which is another conversation. 00:30:35.740 --> 00:30:38.740 But, but there are multiple blockchains. 00:30:38.880 --> 00:30:41.820 So you've got Bitcoin and Ethereum are the two main ones. 00:30:42.280 --> 00:30:52.200 And then each blockchain has a cryptocurrency that is native as the, as the money that exchanges on their, on their blockchain. 00:30:52.880 --> 00:30:53.800 Does that make any sense? 00:30:54.060 --> 00:31:06.940 It does, and I don't want to overstate or understate, but like, you know, VR, you're looking at a very technologically savvy world, environments, the headsets, that stuff. 00:31:07.080 --> 00:31:11.780 Augmented reality, if it comes out, like, you know, I was kind of hoping Apple would roll it out today. 00:31:11.880 --> 00:31:19.900 Of course it doesn't work that way, but you know, the tech that's going to come into this is, is going to be, is going to be huge blockchain and crypto. 00:31:19.900 --> 00:31:26.980 What you're talking about is a, is a, a sharing of global databases and, and registrar registries. 00:31:26.980 --> 00:31:39.340 And like, this doesn't seem like it's, um, technologically advanced as much as very disruptive because of the decentralized nature. 00:31:39.640 --> 00:31:42.500 Is, is that a, an accurate view? 00:31:43.000 --> 00:31:44.100 I don't want to speak for John. 00:31:44.260 --> 00:31:53.580 My answer to that would be that the two people that I have huge respect for in the blockchain and the DAO space, both. 00:31:54.420 --> 00:32:09.240 Um, when they first read the white paper on Bitcoin, what made one of them go to the executives of Citibank in 2014 and say, we need a crypto division. 00:32:10.480 --> 00:32:13.720 And they let this guy start it in 2014. 00:32:13.720 --> 00:32:15.080 And you don't know that. 00:32:15.440 --> 00:32:20.120 And no one knew it at the time because that's how ahead of his time he was. 00:32:21.000 --> 00:32:24.420 But, but when he did that, why did he do it? 00:32:24.460 --> 00:32:27.120 Because of, it was a financial tech stack. 00:32:27.120 --> 00:32:40.820 It was a financial con, it was a technological concept that radically changed how everything can be created and distributed and, um, and owned together. 00:32:40.940 --> 00:32:42.140 And that's the key. 00:32:42.220 --> 00:32:49.000 I think, I think the, like an act, it's not just social distribution and acts when they shared all with all who had need. 00:32:49.220 --> 00:32:57.900 I don't want to speak for John, but I would imagine that's even part of that theological construct of what this decentralized opportunity allows. 00:32:57.900 --> 00:33:14.000 And so, um, because it allows for not just the central church institution to manage money, but for the body of believers to trust in each other because of the public ledger to be able to share resources together in a way that they've never been able to. 00:33:14.100 --> 00:33:28.860 So in that sense, it is a technological revolution, um, a very revolutionary advance, um, and as it becomes true, truly computerized, that's the next phase. 00:33:29.300 --> 00:33:49.580 And there's really only two blockchains even doing that, but, but as it truly becomes computerized on the chain, I'm not talking about on Amazon web services, but as it becomes truly, truly computerized on, on the blockchain, it'll even drastically all offer even more opportunity. 00:33:49.580 --> 00:34:00.840 And so I'm not trying to get too technical when I say that, I just want to say it is, it is, it is very much technological advance, um, that offers opportunities that we've never had before. 00:34:01.400 --> 00:34:03.500 Interesting. John, do you have a take on that? 00:34:03.940 --> 00:34:18.980 Well, yeah. And, and, and, and this isn't as technologists, right? So like, okay. Like, I mean, when it comes down to it, like there may not be some, I mean, honestly, people that know Java could easily learn solidity. Like there's a, there's an easy move over. Right. 00:34:18.980 --> 00:34:48.380 So maybe there's, there's at some level, it is not wildly like complicated technology or something like that. However, it is revolutionary technology that has never existed. So like there's an extremely important element to this technology because it is now possible to have real immutable decentralized digital identity. 00:34:48.380 --> 00:35:02.780 Identity. Which for those of you that are interested in metaverse with replaceable avatars, something like a passport, something like a verifiable identity is going to matter significantly. 00:35:03.340 --> 00:35:12.960 Yep. And then, and then this now it adds, so it adds to what is existing, what you're familiar with in like, let's say VR, all of the technological advancements. 00:35:13.060 --> 00:35:18.620 It adds a settlement layer of truth to the digital world that has never before been possible. 00:35:19.540 --> 00:35:32.840 Um, so, so like your kids buy digital skins on Fortnite and with those assets, they like, those exist on centralized servers, but they can't be taken into another game. 00:35:33.360 --> 00:35:34.460 They're not meta. 00:35:34.460 --> 00:35:39.200 They're not meta, which means to transcend, right? 00:35:39.340 --> 00:35:45.860 So I, I actually don't like the, the phrase is like, there's going to be multiple metaverses because meta transcends. 00:35:46.260 --> 00:35:52.000 So like, I'm like, Oh, actually meta itself is some way of it's theologically speaking. 00:35:52.000 --> 00:35:56.380 It's like the thing that transcends all of these places. 00:35:56.920 --> 00:36:02.220 And so there, those are just features in a game, those skins in Fortnite, those features in a game. 00:36:02.220 --> 00:36:12.840 But with the rise of blockchain, like Ethereum, we have the ability to create a registry of non fungible items, items that it's now possible to take with you from one platform to another. 00:36:13.800 --> 00:36:20.980 And this is, this is actually why I would say it does not work to say a metaverse as if there's many metaverses. 00:36:21.560 --> 00:36:33.100 There are many games, there are many VR experiences, there are many centralized servers, but what web three and what blockchain is making possible is the metaverse. 00:36:33.100 --> 00:36:48.340 A thing that can actually exist in, in, in a way that is verifiable and has a layer of truth, a settlement layer of truth, which, which, which changes everything you think that you're doing in your headset. 00:36:48.860 --> 00:37:10.040 Okay. So blockchain is the API, the software development kit, the thing that allows the connectivity among, um, platforms among worlds, um, where now I can buy a hat on Oculus. 00:37:10.040 --> 00:37:29.900 That's what I'm wearing in, in over here. That's what my avatar, it looks like over here. And so it's, it's this glue that is connecting the different individual worlds, metaverses, whatever the term is, but it's, it's gelling all of that together. 00:37:29.900 --> 00:37:51.860 And it's based off of, uh, money that's based off of crypto, um, you know, connecting. And so like there's, uh, you know, Ethereum has been the one that you've said a couple of times. I don't know that they're, they've got their presence. Um, is, so does, is Ethereum's different than blockchain? I'm sorry. 00:37:51.860 --> 00:38:09.800 Then, then, then Bitcoins, like, are there different meta crossing level platforms or like, uh, blockchains or is there one blockchain? Like what's, what's the language? What's the consistency when you're looking at some of these? Is there competition in that space? 00:38:09.860 --> 00:38:37.980 So, yes, there is, um, substantial, I would say, but like, I, I'll say this and then I'm sure Jason probably has more knowledge of this, but I'll just say this. Bitcoin does one thing and it does one thing really well and it's never going away. And if you want to equate it to your financial systems, it's like gold. It's like, it has it, it has the ability to hold value and it does that. And it's stupid in that way. 00:38:37.980 --> 00:38:46.120 Like, it's actually a brilliant, it's a brilliant mechanism to do something very stupid, which is like, it just holds value. 00:38:47.100 --> 00:39:02.020 The innovation of Ethereum, which, uh, Vitalik that came out of Bitcoin, like he was like a, he, he was one of the first writers for Bitcoin magazine. He like was a Bitcoin programmer who goes, wait, we could do a whole bunch of other shit here. 00:39:02.020 --> 00:39:05.640 Wait, I'm sorry. I don't know. This is a church network digital podcast. I don't know. 00:39:06.100 --> 00:39:15.240 That word, that word, that word is actually in Philippian. That word is actually in Philippians three. So you're good. You're good. 00:39:15.520 --> 00:39:28.820 All right. Well, I got other words for you that might not be in your, in your text, but we, we, we got, so we can do a bunch of other stuff here and we can actually build a programmable, uh, computer that exists in this place. 00:39:28.820 --> 00:39:42.600 So Ethereum then presents an entirely new thing now with smart contracts, which is what makes things like DAOs possible, which is what gives honestly, which is what grabbed my attention. 00:39:42.600 --> 00:39:56.000 Because I go the money side of this money. It is money. There is money currency related here. That is the least interesting thing about this to me, but it is the primary driver of what's going to make it work. 00:39:56.000 --> 00:40:10.680 Like you have to have tokenization and monetary because it's a monetary construct. It's actually like the, it's the super app that's going to make the, the, the protocol, um, survive and work. 00:40:10.680 --> 00:40:20.920 Um, but, but, but what it makes possible for community development, what it makes possible for organization and governance, what it makes possible is insane. 00:40:20.920 --> 00:40:32.660 And then basically everything else you ever heard of, honestly, this isn't 100% true, but almost everything you've heard of that's like blockchain or different tokens are built on Ethereum. 00:40:33.240 --> 00:40:48.820 So Ethereum is the EVM, the, the, the ethereal virtual machine and almost every other token with some, with their, there's exceptions that are built as ERC twenties, which is like tokens built on the back of Ethereum. 00:40:48.980 --> 00:40:57.960 So Ethereum, it, in my estimation is that like base layer one of all of these things that are existing. 00:40:58.140 --> 00:41:05.360 Cause if you look at even the top five tokens, uh, like transaction stuff that's happening, they're all Ethereum, it's Ethereum. 00:41:05.880 --> 00:41:08.880 And then it's four other things built on top of Ethereum. 00:41:11.540 --> 00:41:13.140 So I think that's significant. 00:41:13.660 --> 00:41:17.860 Um, and I, and I pay a lot of attention to the Ethereum space. 00:41:17.860 --> 00:41:25.380 And so I don't spend a lot of time on like Solana or Bitcoin or these other things, but like, I'm also not that interested in like being a trader. 00:41:25.700 --> 00:41:32.160 I'm interested in being like a, uh, settler, a pioneer, uh, like I'm gonna, I'm, I want to move in. 00:41:32.780 --> 00:41:36.080 Like, I'm like, this is part of the world that I'm invited into. 00:41:36.080 --> 00:41:38.300 And I'm, I'm trying to like build my home here. 00:41:38.600 --> 00:41:42.880 So you're not looking at this as, um, you know, financial restitution. 00:41:42.880 --> 00:41:44.100 You're not trying to make a buck. 00:41:44.220 --> 00:41:45.740 Every dollar this is. 00:41:45.880 --> 00:41:47.200 And by the way, this is advice. 00:41:47.200 --> 00:41:50.500 Like I would recommend for people because I don't have a lot of money. 00:41:51.100 --> 00:41:58.400 Every dollar that I've put in, I have considered tuition because we are quite comfortable paying for education. 00:41:59.400 --> 00:42:02.360 And I go, buy an education. 00:42:02.640 --> 00:42:05.840 So when something goes to zero, you bought a lesson. 00:42:06.200 --> 00:42:09.080 When something does really well, that's great. 00:42:09.140 --> 00:42:10.800 You got a cherry on top of your class. 00:42:11.000 --> 00:42:21.280 But like every dollar that I've invested in, even with my wife, like we do not have money for this, but I'm like, I am not going to not know how to swim when this tide comes in. 00:42:22.400 --> 00:42:24.660 And it's coming, it's coming. 00:42:24.960 --> 00:42:28.600 So I'm going to learn how to swim and I'm going to buy my lessons. 00:42:29.020 --> 00:42:30.220 And that's how I look at this. 00:42:30.260 --> 00:42:32.300 And I do not care about finances. 00:42:32.300 --> 00:42:34.240 Like that's not what's interesting to me at all. 00:42:35.400 --> 00:42:35.880 Jason. 00:42:36.140 --> 00:42:36.380 All right. 00:42:36.400 --> 00:42:37.240 So let me ask this. 00:42:37.480 --> 00:42:40.060 Let's, let's, let's go into application mode here. 00:42:42.060 --> 00:42:46.080 What does this practically look like for, for a church? 00:42:46.460 --> 00:42:47.680 I'm a physical church. 00:42:47.680 --> 00:42:48.720 I'm a digital church. 00:42:49.180 --> 00:42:50.960 I'm a church in any given corner. 00:42:52.020 --> 00:42:57.900 You can probably convince me, hey, my church needs to take crypto to make a buck. 00:42:58.580 --> 00:43:04.380 But that almost seems like that's a very limited scope of really what we're talking about. 00:43:04.540 --> 00:43:07.040 How, how does the church utilize this stuff? 00:43:07.540 --> 00:43:08.400 That's a great question. 00:43:08.660 --> 00:43:16.620 I mean, I think, I think there's a lot more than three ways, but for the sake of time and conciseness, I'll throw out three suggestions. 00:43:18.800 --> 00:43:22.540 You said one, which is not one of the three that I would throw out. 00:43:23.480 --> 00:43:26.860 Although, although I don't think it's a bad idea. 00:43:27.500 --> 00:43:39.540 You know, like, for example, if you want to move money around the world without paying astronomical banking fees to the central banking people, then put your money in Stellar or Ripple and send it somewhere else. 00:43:39.540 --> 00:43:43.160 Because there's now 70 countries that will settle it for you, right? 00:43:43.160 --> 00:43:50.880 So, now that's off of the Ethereum blockchain, but it's built in to the money. 00:43:51.100 --> 00:44:01.980 Like, Ripple right now, in November of this year, 24 countries will announce a shift from the SWIFT financial system, which has been in use for decades. 00:44:03.100 --> 00:44:07.900 And they'll announce a movement off of it for the movement of international money. 00:44:09.000 --> 00:44:13.460 And Ripple won't be the only answer, but there'll be one of the answers. 00:44:13.620 --> 00:44:19.100 And they've been at the last, I think, six, now five or six global economic summits. 00:44:19.840 --> 00:44:39.020 And so, that's the not one of the three ways I would suggest, but just churches do need to understand and nonprofits need to understand that there are ways to leverage and make more money of their money for their constituents, for their donors, but also for the people that they're helping. 00:44:40.180 --> 00:44:42.000 And so, let's go there for a second. 00:44:42.100 --> 00:44:43.580 That's one of the three suggestions. 00:44:44.180 --> 00:44:52.680 If you truly have a heart to take the gospel of Jesus into any culture, and I'm talking about whether it's in the universe or the metaverse, right? 00:44:53.140 --> 00:45:01.120 If you truly have a heart to do that, but you never think about bankless societies, then you don't understand our world. 00:45:02.600 --> 00:45:08.860 Because the majority of the people who are even a part of this network have never even been in a bankless society. 00:45:08.860 --> 00:45:15.240 And so, but a huge amount of our population on Earth lives in a bankless society. 00:45:16.040 --> 00:45:24.820 And what the blockchain is allowing and what this technology allows is for a bankless society to still engage in a global economy. 00:45:25.640 --> 00:45:32.260 So, what's currently known as the global financial system will soon, within the next five years, be known as the quantum financial system. 00:45:32.260 --> 00:45:40.580 And the quantum financial system will engage multiple cultures that have never been engaged in the banking systems of the world. 00:45:41.360 --> 00:45:43.580 And you might say, well, why does that matter? 00:45:43.720 --> 00:45:48.060 Well, because the church has a heart for multiple cultures, right? 00:45:48.300 --> 00:45:48.600 Why? 00:45:48.680 --> 00:45:51.020 Because Jesus has a heart for multiple cultures. 00:45:51.020 --> 00:45:56.600 And so, like, I think if Jesus came today, I think you'd pay attention to the metaverse. 00:45:56.780 --> 00:45:57.020 Why? 00:45:57.100 --> 00:46:07.520 Because a whole lot of people who are really questioning their identity, security, and purpose are seeking community there in a way that they can't find it anywhere else. 00:46:07.940 --> 00:46:11.480 And if you don't believe me, then just pay attention for the next week. 00:46:11.600 --> 00:46:12.740 Just do this experiment. 00:46:13.560 --> 00:46:21.360 Go engage for the next week in a metaverse, in metaverse concepts and communities, in the metaverse. 00:46:21.620 --> 00:46:24.280 And we can give examples of that if we need to. 00:46:24.900 --> 00:46:28.660 But go engage there and listen for the word hope. 00:46:30.000 --> 00:46:32.820 Because it's used all the time. 00:46:33.480 --> 00:46:36.380 And so, I say, this is important. 00:46:36.540 --> 00:46:57.600 If the church cares about multiple cultures, whether they're in the universe or the metaverse, this technology is going to allow them to engage in a way that provides opportunities to break cycles of poverty, that provides opportunities to live in a native way, in a place where their fiat money will not work very well. 00:46:57.860 --> 00:47:00.760 So, you've got all kinds of dynamic at play. 00:47:01.300 --> 00:47:03.940 But if you care, that's one of the three ways I would suggest. 00:47:03.940 --> 00:47:12.940 If you care about people of various cultures the way Jesus does, then this technology is going to allow you to engage with people who have a bankless society. 00:47:13.820 --> 00:47:24.280 Whether they've chosen, because they've entered a metaverse that has a different financial structure, or whether they were born into one that doesn't have it. 00:47:25.720 --> 00:47:30.120 And I can shut up there if you want, if John wants to rebuke or add to that. 00:47:30.620 --> 00:47:31.700 John's broken his head. 00:47:31.860 --> 00:47:33.560 You got anything you want to add to that, John? 00:47:34.320 --> 00:47:35.280 No, I think so. 00:47:35.340 --> 00:47:39.600 I think I'll, I'll, I'll, I go amen and continue to lead us on. 00:47:40.100 --> 00:47:44.540 John, yield the time to the, to the gentleman from New Orleans. 00:47:44.780 --> 00:47:45.440 So, go ahead. 00:47:46.000 --> 00:47:59.300 So, the second thing I would suggest is, and this is the one where I think people, this is, this will stretch what's known as the clergy. 00:48:01.640 --> 00:48:14.120 We have to decide that the, the, the purpose and the vision and the mission of the individual people that make up our congregations matters more than our own ambitions. 00:48:17.000 --> 00:48:27.400 And this technology gives us an opportunity to establish multiple representations and expressions of what on earth as it is in heaven could look like. 00:48:27.760 --> 00:48:32.780 Through the engagement of a few people at a time who say, I care about this. 00:48:33.440 --> 00:48:47.140 And this technology gives us a chance to, in a trustless way, a way that doesn't need all of the, the crappy, you know, monster-like mechanical management systems that we thought mattered. 00:48:48.400 --> 00:49:05.160 And in the institutional church, this technology allows us to distribute funds in such a way or even allows those people to put their money together in a DAO, a decentralized autonomous organization that allows them to then go after specific purposes. 00:49:05.420 --> 00:49:14.380 And there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's a lot of ways you can think of the DAO and we don't probably have time tonight to go into all of that, but, but one of those ways is a joint venture LLC. 00:49:14.380 --> 00:49:17.500 You can have a legal entity connected to your DAO. 00:49:18.220 --> 00:49:28.780 And, and so you, I mean, you could see multiple expressions of kingdom of God people, uh, with this technology in a way that you could never see before. 00:49:29.120 --> 00:49:34.820 And, um, you could see them do bank accounts on their own, but we, we know that happened, right? 00:49:34.820 --> 00:49:47.060 Like we know that in the seventies when the, when the prayer church organizations began to really launch and really become significant, it was because the shepherd and the teacher wouldn't let the ape have a voice in the room, right? 00:49:47.380 --> 00:50:00.820 So the apostle, prophet, and evangelist left, gave all their money to these prayer church organizations, which they should have just been honest, the shepherds and teachers and said, you're really just starting more expressions of the church, but that's another ecclesiological conversation. 00:50:01.560 --> 00:50:15.920 And, and, and so, so in that process, though, now what we're about to see are marketplace leaders who are fed up of giving their money with the shepherds and teachers who don't know how in the world to invest it for kingdom purposes. 00:50:16.280 --> 00:50:18.320 And they're going to start doing it themselves. 00:50:18.320 --> 00:50:20.380 And this technology is going to allow that. 00:50:20.380 --> 00:50:31.380 And then, and then the third thing that I would throw out there that I think is incredibly significant as though those other two aren't, but I, I, I, I, I really believe. 00:50:31.560 --> 00:50:37.740 And, and, and this may go back even into the theological construct that John mentioned earlier. 00:50:39.400 --> 00:50:52.780 I really believe that people who Jesus, like you don't, you, if I take Matthew 25 seriously, I'm not going to go be Jesus's hands and feet to the least of these. 00:50:53.320 --> 00:51:01.600 If I take seriously what he's saying, I might see him in the eyes of them instead of them seeing him in me. 00:51:02.540 --> 00:51:05.340 He says, when you did it to them, you did it to me. 00:51:05.800 --> 00:51:19.460 This technology is going to allow us to move resources in ways where we're going to literally be able to give it to the least of these to do things that they've never been able to do and never been able to engage in before. 00:51:20.360 --> 00:51:23.620 And it doesn't, people don't need money to matter. 00:51:24.960 --> 00:51:44.420 But, but, but in, but in certain societies, I'll put it that way, helping someone deal with emotional stress and trauma, and at the same time, giving them a safe place to exist will radically alter the very way that they can engage in the world. 00:51:44.420 --> 00:51:59.280 And to give people the chance to do that, this technology and the cryptocurrency that comes with it, is going to allow us to empower people in a way that really takes Matthew 25 to another level. 00:51:59.720 --> 00:52:07.900 And we might actually, instead of giving it to the institutional church, give our money to Jesus, because he said, when we gave it to the least of these, we gave it to him. 00:52:08.340 --> 00:52:11.000 That's probably going to piss some people off, but there you go. 00:52:11.000 --> 00:52:13.220 I mean, there, there's, there's a lot that's there. 00:52:13.860 --> 00:52:21.720 Um, and I thought the idea of virtual reality church was controversial, but you just, just, you just squatting a whole bunch of people right there. 00:52:22.120 --> 00:52:25.700 Uh, John, any kind of response or feedback off of that? 00:52:25.900 --> 00:52:26.500 No, I agree. 00:52:26.600 --> 00:52:34.120 I mean, I, I, listen, I'll tell you this when, so I had this acid trip and I came to Jesus. 00:52:34.120 --> 00:52:54.200 And then I, I, I, what I did was I started reading the new Testament and then I talked a bunch of dudes into moving into a house together in the inner city of Tampa between two housing projects out of a conviction that if, you know, I looked at like the Bible, like Matthew 25, like he's referencing, like, as like a where's Waldo puzzle. 00:52:54.200 --> 00:52:59.060 Like if I'm going to find Jesus, um, I'm going to look where the clues he gave me. 00:52:59.280 --> 00:53:02.560 And he said, um, I was arrested. 00:53:02.860 --> 00:53:03.920 I was poor. 00:53:04.040 --> 00:53:05.460 I was without clothes. 00:53:05.480 --> 00:53:10.320 I was, you know, I, and so I was like, all right, I'm going to go to the hardest neighborhood in our city. 00:53:10.320 --> 00:53:15.640 And I talked at the time, I think it was like seven dudes into moving into a house together. 00:53:15.840 --> 00:53:27.240 We were in college and I was like, all right, what we'll do is we will buy this very cheap house or rent this very cheap house and we can pool our money. 00:53:27.900 --> 00:53:34.680 Um, so we were able to live on like a hundred bucks a month each because it, we, we lived a ton of us in one house. 00:53:34.680 --> 00:53:37.040 Cause we're like, well, poor people all over the world do this. 00:53:37.040 --> 00:53:37.940 Like we could do this too. 00:53:38.760 --> 00:53:42.840 We, um, pooled our money and we pooled way beyond rent. 00:53:42.880 --> 00:53:46.580 So we pooled rent, electricity, all the utilities. 00:53:46.580 --> 00:53:50.080 We pooled groceries and then we pooled beyond that. 00:53:50.120 --> 00:53:54.060 So we didn't pool everything we had, but we pooled a lot. 00:53:54.500 --> 00:54:00.840 And we pooled a percentage of money that was just like common purse. 00:54:00.860 --> 00:54:03.040 Like we share this money. 00:54:03.260 --> 00:54:08.200 And what I witnessed was there was like, you know, just under a dozen of us. 00:54:08.200 --> 00:54:13.320 And we would meet every Sunday night and we would say, all right, we have a couple things we really care about. 00:54:13.380 --> 00:54:17.060 So we had a, we, we wrote, Oh, we called the declaration of interdependence. 00:54:17.320 --> 00:54:25.560 And we had this, uh, I actually have a copy of it hanging on my wall over here, but we wrote this like letter of convictions and we measured ourselves on it. 00:54:25.560 --> 00:54:31.460 And we said, you know, like we took seriously things like MLK saying like a budget is a moral document. 00:54:31.840 --> 00:54:33.820 You say you care about these things. 00:54:33.820 --> 00:54:37.780 So print out your credit card statement and tell me what you actually value. 00:54:38.140 --> 00:54:42.580 And so we were like, well, if we say we value our neighbors, we should put some money into caring for our neighbors. 00:54:42.580 --> 00:54:50.880 And if we say we value like ecological stuff, we should put money into like investing in things that help us get off the grid. 00:54:50.980 --> 00:54:58.420 Or so we built like a solar water heater that we put on our roof or, you know, just this, that, and the other, like experiments, just like, let's just try these things. 00:54:58.420 --> 00:55:06.380 And I don't think any of them are wildly significant in the impact on the world, but they were wildly significant in their impact on us. 00:55:07.500 --> 00:55:16.640 And we met every Sunday and we're like, Oh, we invested more in projects around the property than we did in like neighbors, like Fred next door, whose roof is leaking. 00:55:17.140 --> 00:55:19.040 Is that how we want this to read? 00:55:19.600 --> 00:55:28.100 And so then when I heard of DAOs, I was like, Oh, this is what we were trying to do forever. 00:55:28.300 --> 00:55:28.400 Yeah. 00:55:28.480 --> 00:55:29.440 We were a proto-DAO. 00:55:29.620 --> 00:55:33.460 We were, we, we, and by the way, it's what I think the early church was. 00:55:33.460 --> 00:55:35.100 It's like, okay, look, we're going to get together. 00:55:35.440 --> 00:55:36.960 We're going to pool some resources. 00:55:37.200 --> 00:55:39.280 We're going to say, what is God calling us to do? 00:55:39.460 --> 00:55:42.120 We're going to, we're going to, it's a priesthood of all believers. 00:55:42.120 --> 00:55:48.020 We're not leaning on any one individual to centralize trust and power. 00:55:48.220 --> 00:55:51.520 We're going to say, God, God wants us to love Fred. 00:55:52.180 --> 00:55:53.080 Fred's roof's leaking. 00:55:53.380 --> 00:55:54.680 We should fix Fred's roof. 00:55:54.760 --> 00:56:00.000 And then we should invite Fred over to dinner and we should throw a block party, invite everyone over to celebrate that Fred's roof isn't leaking, whatever. 00:56:00.240 --> 00:56:01.520 And let's do that. 00:56:01.520 --> 00:56:02.820 And we'll spend some money. 00:56:02.900 --> 00:56:03.580 And so we would vote. 00:56:03.660 --> 00:56:05.000 We would say, all right, this is what we think we should do. 00:56:05.060 --> 00:56:05.680 We would vote. 00:56:06.640 --> 00:56:10.480 And, and incidentally, like we had a dude named Will that lived there. 00:56:10.640 --> 00:56:14.700 Will held all the money and Will did what we said. 00:56:14.720 --> 00:56:15.360 And he did. 00:56:15.740 --> 00:56:17.660 He was a good dude and he did what we said. 00:56:17.660 --> 00:56:28.040 But the vulnerability of that entire system is on trusting a human being to hold power and authority and the month, the funds and whatever. 00:56:28.220 --> 00:56:31.880 And we can remove with blockchain that third party necessity. 00:56:31.880 --> 00:56:33.720 This can be written into a contract now. 00:56:34.260 --> 00:56:35.960 And we can actually organize. 00:56:36.780 --> 00:56:42.680 And what I was able to do with 12 guys in a house, I can now do with people in 12 countries around the world. 00:56:43.040 --> 00:56:48.780 I can now do, I can now do at scale what we did in this house. 00:56:49.040 --> 00:56:56.920 And I think there's never been, I mean, for good or for ill, we can do whatever we want with this technology. 00:56:57.140 --> 00:56:57.920 It's agnostic. 00:56:58.720 --> 00:57:19.700 But there's never been a greater gift to the people of God for unity and organization and the priesthood of all believers and the eradication of institutional centralized leadership, which I believe has been a problem since its inception. 00:57:20.460 --> 00:57:27.060 Like, Rome said, we're Christian and Christianity ceased to exist as far as I'm concerned. 00:57:27.600 --> 00:57:31.420 Like, that has been a problem since day one. 00:57:32.060 --> 00:57:36.260 And we can now realistically do something about that. 00:57:36.500 --> 00:57:43.160 Like, the three of us right now can decide to pool funds and vote and choose what we're going to do with that money. 00:57:43.320 --> 00:57:49.120 And we can move mountains with the funds that we can pull available. 00:57:49.880 --> 00:58:09.100 And then you couple that with churches meeting in virtual space without boundaries of, like, we're in California or we're in North Carolina, but we can come together across all of these places and align around a common prayer and a vision for the kingdom of God. 00:58:09.960 --> 00:58:20.920 There has never been anything in human history that has been a more hopeful tool given to the people of God. 00:58:21.520 --> 00:58:31.680 And if we don't respond with responsibility and intentionality, I just think we're fools and full of blindness and sin. 00:58:32.520 --> 00:58:36.660 Yeah, that's the burden that compels me too, John. 00:58:36.780 --> 00:58:47.120 And I think that's, and I've said this before, but I think we pray a lot of prayers that Jesus never asked us to pray, but we don't pay attention to the prayer that he prayed. 00:58:47.960 --> 00:58:52.420 And I agree with you that this tool may give us a chance to become an answer to it. 00:58:52.760 --> 00:58:54.420 That we may have been one? 00:58:55.680 --> 00:59:00.120 Yeah, toward the maturing of our oneness so that people might believe in the one who is sent. 00:59:00.300 --> 00:59:05.340 And I think, I think in that sense, it truly is. 00:59:05.400 --> 00:59:06.800 I mean, again, decentralized. 00:59:07.220 --> 00:59:13.420 Like our network, when we talked about living sent, for instance, in 2007, whatever, we were talking about decentralized. 00:59:13.660 --> 00:59:16.040 Like you were just how you had a DAO in your house, right? 00:59:16.680 --> 00:59:29.460 Like we were talking about decentralized, but, you know, Jeff, you were talking about this in 01 when you started doing what you were doing, even in the various ways you engaged already, way ahead of your time, way ahead of anyone else's time in that space. 00:59:29.460 --> 00:59:53.700 And I think, I think, I think that's going to be, it's crazy how the technology conversation shifts to this, but this, this is the real dilemma to be candid is, are we really serious about equipping the everyday person, not the clergy, but the everyday person, truly equipping them to be able to be disciples who make disciples wherever they go, including the metaphors. 00:59:53.700 --> 01:00:04.180 And, and, and I don't mean, I don't mean just evangelists who go show up and sit, stand next to someone at a metaverse art gallery and strike up a conversation. 01:00:04.180 --> 01:00:13.320 I mean, you go be a native, you move into the neighborhood, like John one says with that Jesus did and, and the, and the way that you could exist there. 01:00:13.520 --> 01:00:15.400 Not everyone's going to be a feel called to that. 01:00:15.560 --> 01:00:16.620 And that's okay. 01:00:17.140 --> 01:00:18.240 It's more than okay. 01:00:18.760 --> 01:00:30.460 But I agree, John, I think, I think we're irresponsible if, if we don't pay attention to it and don't equip some of our people to live in a very honorable way there. 01:00:30.580 --> 01:00:32.340 And when I say honorable, let me be clear. 01:00:32.620 --> 01:00:35.060 I don't mean even just honorable to each other. 01:00:35.140 --> 01:00:38.660 I mean, honorable to the people there who are not believers in Jesus. 01:00:39.320 --> 01:00:46.900 And, and so I think that's the, that'll be an interesting dilemma and how we engage with this technology, but it's here. 01:00:46.900 --> 01:00:48.920 The tipping point has already happened. 01:00:49.560 --> 01:00:53.600 Like the tipping point, if you don't believe me, let me just throw this stat out to you. 01:00:54.060 --> 01:00:56.820 Last year, Ethereum moved more money than Visa. 01:00:57.480 --> 01:00:57.780 Really? 01:00:58.380 --> 01:00:59.360 I was not aware of that. 01:00:59.720 --> 01:01:03.720 Last year, 2021, Ethereum moved more money than Visa. 01:01:04.420 --> 01:01:06.500 So, so is it here? 01:01:06.680 --> 01:01:07.000 Yes. 01:01:07.080 --> 01:01:07.840 The answer is yes. 01:01:07.940 --> 01:01:08.420 It's in here. 01:01:08.520 --> 01:01:12.020 Like you, like you, it's not, this isn't a, we're going to get there. 01:01:12.020 --> 01:01:13.720 There is zero question. 01:01:16.040 --> 01:01:16.940 It's a wrap. 01:01:17.240 --> 01:01:18.000 It is written. 01:01:18.920 --> 01:01:26.320 And the number of developers on Polygon, on, which is a layer to Ethereum that John was talking about things that are built on the back of Ethereum. 01:01:26.960 --> 01:01:33.680 I mean, the number of developers in those layer two spaces are off the chart. 01:01:33.840 --> 01:01:35.720 They can't hire engineers quick enough. 01:01:36.580 --> 01:01:40.840 And so actual things are being built that are now affecting everyday lives. 01:01:41.400 --> 01:01:48.960 And, and, and so it's, you know, we're, we've got to, that's the, that's the burden is how do we help people get into that and engage with it? 01:01:49.620 --> 01:01:54.140 I'm going to wrap, but I could be here another day, another hour. 01:01:54.520 --> 01:01:56.620 And so round two, three, four, five. 01:01:56.740 --> 01:01:57.580 I'm good to go. 01:01:58.060 --> 01:01:58.200 Yeah. 01:01:58.300 --> 01:02:00.260 This, you guys feed well off each other. 01:02:00.340 --> 01:02:06.800 You know, John's like the burn it down and Jason's kind of like the, you know, the, the explaining it. 01:02:06.840 --> 01:02:07.560 It's good chemistry. 01:02:07.720 --> 01:02:08.460 You guys should probably. 01:02:09.120 --> 01:02:10.220 I've enjoyed it, John. 01:02:10.340 --> 01:02:10.580 I have. 01:02:10.860 --> 01:02:15.220 Thank you, Jeff, for, for having us, letting us be a part and Jay and Justin too. 01:02:15.300 --> 01:02:16.260 Thank you guys for hanging. 01:02:17.160 --> 01:02:17.520 Totally. 01:02:17.520 --> 01:02:19.820 So, yeah, we'll do this again soon. 01:02:20.460 --> 01:02:25.860 And, you know, Jason's got his channel in, in fam talking about this stuff. 01:02:25.860 --> 01:02:27.760 And so I want to highlight that. 01:02:27.860 --> 01:02:30.220 John's got his podcast on Spotify. 01:02:30.220 --> 01:02:32.180 I put the link in there as well. 01:02:32.180 --> 01:02:36.120 But, yeah, we want to continue this conversation and work through it. 01:02:36.400 --> 01:02:42.040 I'm, I, I, a perennial student here, kind of, kind of learning myself in this. 01:02:42.160 --> 01:02:47.020 And so love the opportunity, just John, Jason, thanks for taking the time. 01:02:47.520 --> 01:02:47.800 Thank you. 01:02:47.800 --> 01:02:48.320 Justin J. 01:02:48.400 --> 01:02:51.460 Man, there's a lot of J's in this room right now. 01:02:51.880 --> 01:02:52.420 It's kind of confusing. 01:02:53.200 --> 01:02:54.560 100% J. 01:02:54.580 --> 01:02:56.860 100% J in the room. 01:02:57.100 --> 01:02:58.980 And we even got a J representing the J. 01:02:59.700 --> 01:03:00.260 No, this is good. 01:03:00.400 --> 01:03:04.000 But, hey, for, for John, Jason, we're going to wrap. 01:03:04.080 --> 01:03:06.160 Thanks, everybody, for hanging out with this roundtable. 01:03:06.660 --> 01:03:08.640 We're going to do it again here really soon. 01:03:08.760 --> 01:03:13.260 Next week is World Building, I think, with Michael Ustavinis. 01:03:13.440 --> 01:03:15.400 So he'll be, he'll be in talking about some of that. 01:03:15.740 --> 01:03:19.380 But definitely looking forward to more in this, on this topic soon. 01:03:19.380 --> 01:03:21.240 So thanks, y'all. 01:03:21.400 --> 01:03:21.920 Y'all have a good day. 01:03:22.140 --> 01:03:22.300 Thank you. 01:03:22.700 --> 01:03:23.400 Appreciate y'all.