WEBVTT 00:00:00.240 --> 00:00:08.140 You'll find that VRChat is so large in its player base that it is like a world with many continents on it. 00:00:08.240 --> 00:00:11.020 And each continent has sort of a subculture to it. 00:00:11.640 --> 00:00:16.560 You'll find that in other platforms as well, but in VRChat, because the player base is so big, 00:00:17.280 --> 00:00:21.080 these subcultures are, you know, are like deeper foundation created. 00:00:21.080 --> 00:00:30.960 And so each has their needs and you can really see the hurt within the people that are in VRChat. 00:00:31.160 --> 00:00:32.800 The majority of the people are depressed. 00:00:33.500 --> 00:00:34.360 Many are suicidal. 00:00:34.720 --> 00:00:38.740 It's second nature to talk a friend out of suicide in VRChat. 00:00:39.040 --> 00:00:40.800 Welcome to the Church Digital Podcast. 00:00:41.540 --> 00:00:45.580 Through this podcast, we'll talk about the technological innovations within the church. 00:00:46.140 --> 00:00:50.080 But more than tech for tech itself, we'll address deeper questions. 00:00:50.480 --> 00:00:52.780 Is disciple making possible digitally? 00:00:53.560 --> 00:00:55.800 How should we approach the digital mission field? 00:00:56.600 --> 00:00:59.320 Can a biblically grounded church operate in digital space? 00:01:00.080 --> 00:01:02.360 Oh, and where does the metaverse fit into all this? 00:01:03.240 --> 00:01:07.360 Whether you're a big or small church, an established church or a startup church plant, 00:01:08.100 --> 00:01:13.020 the Church Digital's goal is to help churches like yours learn to be a multiplying church, 00:01:13.640 --> 00:01:15.000 digitally and physically. 00:01:15.600 --> 00:01:19.880 Our heart, that churches like yours will discover a newfound focus on disciple making 00:01:19.880 --> 00:01:22.680 that will revolutionize your church. 00:01:23.020 --> 00:01:26.000 And now, here's your host, Jeff Reed. 00:01:26.400 --> 00:01:28.420 All right, hey, you got the Church Digital Podcast. 00:01:28.580 --> 00:01:30.940 It's episode 242 here. 00:01:31.520 --> 00:01:34.940 Man, listen, I am excited about today and this conversation. 00:01:35.100 --> 00:01:38.540 Because really, we're going to start doing, we're going to do a little deep dive, 00:01:38.620 --> 00:01:45.360 maybe a heartfelt check here, getting into virtual reality and what the church can and should look like 00:01:45.360 --> 00:01:51.840 and what the results can be for a church that's engaging in ministry, in virtual reality. 00:01:51.980 --> 00:01:56.860 And so, before we get into that, like, I just, I want to maybe do some self-promotion. 00:01:57.000 --> 00:01:58.840 Am I allowed as a podcast host? 00:01:59.260 --> 00:02:00.120 Can I do self-promotion? 00:02:00.200 --> 00:02:03.700 I don't do a lot of self-promotion, but I want to right here. 00:02:03.820 --> 00:02:10.280 So, I wrote a book on church and virtual reality, and it's published right now. 00:02:10.380 --> 00:02:12.460 Like, you can download it. 00:02:12.560 --> 00:02:14.200 You can buy it from Amazon. 00:02:15.020 --> 00:02:21.320 And we, I, selfishly, I, Jeff Reed, would love for you to get a copy of this book. 00:02:21.380 --> 00:02:25.380 So, I sat down with my leadership network friends, published through Exponential. 00:02:25.840 --> 00:02:33.300 And at the same time, we interviewed, I don't know, maybe 14, 15 different people and quoted them, 00:02:33.380 --> 00:02:37.460 people that are out there exploring and doing ministry in virtual reality. 00:02:37.540 --> 00:02:41.880 As a matter of fact, today's guest is one of those that's quoted at least once, 00:02:41.920 --> 00:02:44.580 if not multiple times within the book. 00:02:44.580 --> 00:02:48.220 And so, hey, look, if you're interested in the book, here's what I want you to do. 00:02:48.300 --> 00:02:52.780 Go to thechurch.digital slash VR book. 00:02:53.240 --> 00:02:57.320 Thechurch.digital slash VR book. 00:02:57.420 --> 00:03:00.700 You can download the PDF from Exponential. 00:03:00.880 --> 00:03:02.200 The book is free. 00:03:02.600 --> 00:03:05.100 If you're like, hey, I want a hard copy. 00:03:05.180 --> 00:03:08.220 Or if you're like, hey, I want Jeff to make some money on this deal. 00:03:08.540 --> 00:03:09.700 You can go buy the book from Amazon. 00:03:09.700 --> 00:03:10.900 The book is free. 00:03:11.680 --> 00:03:17.340 But if you want the hard copy, then, you know, Amazon and I appreciate your support. 00:03:17.500 --> 00:03:17.820 Okay. 00:03:18.340 --> 00:03:22.000 Selfish plug over, although we'll probably plug some others in along the way. 00:03:22.060 --> 00:03:24.340 But, hey, for now, let's bring in today's guest. 00:03:24.420 --> 00:03:28.620 So, we've got Stuart Freeman coming in from Cornerstone VR. 00:03:29.060 --> 00:03:34.340 He is the VR chat director and a longtime friend here. 00:03:34.340 --> 00:03:38.820 Or basically anybody from Cornerstone is a longtime friend here of The Church Digital. 00:03:38.980 --> 00:03:41.920 So, Stuart, man, thanks for jumping on the show with me. 00:03:42.180 --> 00:03:43.140 Yeah, happy to be here. 00:03:43.340 --> 00:03:43.960 Thanks for having me. 00:03:44.160 --> 00:03:44.440 Awesome. 00:03:44.660 --> 00:03:50.820 So, Stuart, if you're watching on YouTube, is the calm, collected one in this conversation. 00:03:51.880 --> 00:03:53.660 He doesn't let things ruffle. 00:03:54.180 --> 00:03:55.640 Like, he's just always... 00:03:55.640 --> 00:03:56.780 I've never seen him worked up. 00:03:57.000 --> 00:03:59.060 Ever seen him worked up. 00:03:59.140 --> 00:04:02.580 I have a feeling maybe gamer, maybe... 00:04:02.580 --> 00:04:04.200 Do you get worked up over anything, Stuart? 00:04:04.360 --> 00:04:04.640 Anything? 00:04:04.980 --> 00:04:05.620 Anything, anything? 00:04:06.200 --> 00:04:07.080 Not too much. 00:04:07.220 --> 00:04:08.020 It's not really a problem. 00:04:08.200 --> 00:04:08.800 I've had him on this. 00:04:10.320 --> 00:04:10.960 Very cool. 00:04:11.080 --> 00:04:16.300 So, Stuart, why don't you just, you know, a little bit, tell us about what you do for Cornerstone. 00:04:16.460 --> 00:04:20.780 Of course, Cornerstone, Yuba City, Jason Poling, Goose has been... 00:04:20.780 --> 00:04:22.560 Jason Poling, J-Po, Goose as well. 00:04:22.660 --> 00:04:25.560 Michael's used the business, has been on the show several times. 00:04:25.980 --> 00:04:28.280 And, you know, Stuart, I know I've worked with you. 00:04:28.380 --> 00:04:30.340 I can't remember in what context. 00:04:30.620 --> 00:04:32.160 And no, no, no, you've been on this show before. 00:04:32.300 --> 00:04:36.280 We did the panel with you and Angel and Alice. 00:04:36.540 --> 00:04:37.580 Yeah, it was a good show. 00:04:38.580 --> 00:04:39.900 But why don't you... 00:04:39.900 --> 00:04:41.880 We'll throw the links in the show notes if you want to go backwards. 00:04:42.040 --> 00:04:44.320 But just for a minute, talk here a little bit. 00:04:44.440 --> 00:04:45.280 What do you do? 00:04:45.360 --> 00:04:48.300 What's your role with Cornerstone VR? 00:04:48.840 --> 00:04:52.600 So, I am Cornerstone's director of VRChat. 00:04:53.400 --> 00:05:03.260 And so, God led me to build a campus in VRChat and take what they were doing in Altspace at the time, two, two and a half years ago, 00:05:03.360 --> 00:05:07.880 and bring it over to VRChat, the place that I was in before I was a Christian, 00:05:07.880 --> 00:05:13.420 and the people that I really blended with within that hopeless kind of space. 00:05:14.600 --> 00:05:18.580 So, currently, I do a lot of evangelism in VRChat. 00:05:18.900 --> 00:05:23.700 I disciple people who come to Christ through the evangelism and through the church itself. 00:05:24.760 --> 00:05:26.340 I'm the director of the church. 00:05:26.720 --> 00:05:33.140 So, I oversee everything, do everything on the back end, get all the social events, kind of things like that going, 00:05:33.740 --> 00:05:35.780 and shepherd the flock over there as well. 00:05:35.780 --> 00:05:43.840 So, for the people who don't know what VRChat is, I don't think they can truly realize and encapsulate 00:05:43.840 --> 00:05:50.340 how much of a mission field VRChat is, maybe even compared to some of the others. 00:05:50.440 --> 00:05:56.420 I don't want to discredit one ministry over another, but VRChat's the, I call it the red light district. 00:05:56.620 --> 00:05:58.340 DJ Soto calls it the wild, wild west. 00:05:58.540 --> 00:06:03.060 It's anything goes from an ethic or a morality level. 00:06:03.060 --> 00:06:15.940 So, why don't you, Stuart, just maybe start to talk to us a little bit, start to explain to us a little bit about what VRChat is and maybe what separates it from some of the other worlds that are out there right now. 00:06:15.940 --> 00:06:23.200 So, VRChat is currently the most immersive of all the virtual reality platforms. 00:06:24.020 --> 00:06:34.500 And within that immersion, people really reach out to it to find an escape, to find where they could get a glimpse of hope at. 00:06:34.500 --> 00:06:41.000 And so, within that immersion, there are tons of places that you can turn to. 00:06:41.000 --> 00:06:56.940 And you'll find that VRChat is so large in its player base that it is like a world with many continents on it. 00:06:56.940 --> 00:06:59.800 And each continent has sort of a subculture to it. 00:07:00.520 --> 00:07:02.620 You'll find that in other platforms as well. 00:07:02.900 --> 00:07:09.860 But in VRChat, because the player base is so big, these subcultures are, you know, are like a deeper foundation created. 00:07:10.020 --> 00:07:12.220 And so, each has their needs. 00:07:13.040 --> 00:07:19.640 And you can really see the hurt within the people that are in VRChat. 00:07:19.920 --> 00:07:21.580 The majority of the people are depressed. 00:07:22.180 --> 00:07:23.140 Many are suicidal. 00:07:23.500 --> 00:07:27.440 It's second nature to talk a friend out of suicide in VRChat. 00:07:28.600 --> 00:07:33.540 And so, these are people that are really in our backyard. 00:07:33.800 --> 00:07:35.540 The majority of these people are United States. 00:07:36.520 --> 00:07:40.980 These are usually young adults, I would say, for VRChat range. 00:07:41.340 --> 00:07:46.600 You've definitely got some young ones, but those are only in the public worlds that everybody tries to avoid. 00:07:48.060 --> 00:07:49.420 But these are young adults. 00:07:49.900 --> 00:07:53.120 A lot of them just come in out of high school or college. 00:07:53.500 --> 00:07:56.080 And they're trying to figure out what to do in life. 00:07:56.320 --> 00:08:01.020 And a lot of them are really in a depressed stage and trying to find where hope is. 00:08:01.420 --> 00:08:01.540 Yeah. 00:08:01.740 --> 00:08:07.580 So, I mean, right off the bat, Stuart, you're throwing up, I would say, red flags. 00:08:07.780 --> 00:08:12.020 But things that, as we're doing ministry, things that we need to pay attention to. 00:08:12.660 --> 00:08:21.740 So, I mean, you're describing, you know, it's no big deal to talk somebody off a suicidal run, you know, whatever, that description you said. 00:08:21.820 --> 00:08:27.380 But in my experience, I've run into several of those types of situations. 00:08:27.940 --> 00:08:36.920 And for me, it feels like it's a higher percentage of that in VRChat compared to some of the other virtual reality worlds that are out there. 00:08:37.220 --> 00:08:41.980 Is there a reason why or why do you think we see more of that on the VRChat? 00:08:42.040 --> 00:08:44.320 I think it's the immersion, to be honest with you. 00:08:44.400 --> 00:08:48.960 I think because you can have deeper immersion, you can have deeper forms to reach out for hope. 00:08:49.500 --> 00:08:56.020 And so people are sort of magnetized to that because they can become more real there. 00:08:56.500 --> 00:09:02.860 So interesting, more real, more immersion, which actually brings more out to the surface. 00:09:03.140 --> 00:09:09.580 I do want to say, like, the mental health implications of what you're describing right here. 00:09:10.120 --> 00:09:11.060 Well, let me ask this. 00:09:11.200 --> 00:09:18.960 Like, how, what does a conversation look like for you, Stuart, as you're talking someone off the virtual ledge? 00:09:18.960 --> 00:09:24.200 There's someone that may, like, are they actively saying something? 00:09:24.420 --> 00:09:26.980 Are they subtly saying something that you're responding to? 00:09:27.100 --> 00:09:34.560 Like, what would one of these potential suicidal, is it somebody that's just clamoring for attention? 00:09:34.900 --> 00:09:38.720 Like, describe for me maybe how one of these scenarios has gone for you. 00:09:39.000 --> 00:09:44.520 Me and Goose hung out in VRChat about a week and a half ago or so. 00:09:45.180 --> 00:09:50.140 And he went up on the stage and did his run for the sermon that he was going to do in Rec Room. 00:09:51.700 --> 00:10:01.820 And he just jumped on the stage in Black Cat, public world, started saying it, went and did his thing, turned down his mic like he does because it's super hectic and he can't focus if you don't. 00:10:02.620 --> 00:10:07.680 And in the middle of his sermon, he mentioned that Jesus loves you. 00:10:08.620 --> 00:10:11.580 And there was a guy behind me, his name was Joe Chicken. 00:10:12.300 --> 00:10:20.660 And he was the chicken guy in Chicken, I want to say it was Chicken Little, the one with, like, the little googly thing. 00:10:21.540 --> 00:10:25.040 And he's got, like, a really skinny neck and he's, like, super hillbilly looking. 00:10:26.000 --> 00:10:29.760 And Goose said, Jesus loves you. 00:10:30.120 --> 00:10:31.440 And he said, no one loves me. 00:10:32.680 --> 00:10:34.760 He said, I've tried to take my life four times. 00:10:36.760 --> 00:10:43.440 So these are people that are really screaming inside. 00:10:44.520 --> 00:10:55.640 And that's why it's as hectic as it is in a VR chat, because people will say anything to get the attention that they're not getting at IRL. 00:10:56.180 --> 00:10:56.300 Yeah. 00:10:56.440 --> 00:10:58.440 So what did you do in response? 00:10:58.640 --> 00:11:00.640 Did you pull him aside, have a conversation? 00:11:02.560 --> 00:11:04.320 And so this happened where? 00:11:04.460 --> 00:11:05.180 This happened in? 00:11:05.620 --> 00:11:08.560 Just regular VR chat, Black Cat conversation. 00:11:09.000 --> 00:11:11.700 But, I mean, Black Cat, in fairness, is a bar, right? 00:11:12.000 --> 00:11:12.260 Yeah. 00:11:12.400 --> 00:11:14.760 Yeah, it's a bar, but it's usually where the young kids hang out. 00:11:14.860 --> 00:11:16.100 So most people avoid it. 00:11:17.180 --> 00:11:18.300 Welcome to VR chat. 00:11:19.000 --> 00:11:22.800 We're preaching on a stage in a virtual reality bar. 00:11:22.980 --> 00:11:23.560 Love it. 00:11:25.160 --> 00:11:26.020 Very interesting. 00:11:26.020 --> 00:11:35.920 Now, like, the darkness, the low, the dark, this is something that I really want to dig into in 2023. 00:11:36.680 --> 00:11:38.520 Because, like, I'm convicted. 00:11:39.000 --> 00:11:50.140 Stuart, A, I don't know many seminary-trained, full-time pastors that can adequately handle a suicidal person in the moment. 00:11:50.300 --> 00:11:57.040 Much less, you know, a bivocational kid or a volunteer in virtual reality. 00:11:57.240 --> 00:12:06.860 And so setting up and making connections and finding ways to properly train people to handle situations like the suicidal situation that you're describing. 00:12:06.860 --> 00:12:11.440 Like, I want to make sure that we know what we're doing in that space. 00:12:11.980 --> 00:12:16.340 But also, I know, and, you know, actually, I want to ask this question, Stuart. 00:12:16.920 --> 00:12:18.740 Like, secondhand trauma. 00:12:20.040 --> 00:12:27.320 I've had a number of people tell me just through the conversations that I've had, and virtual reality is a serious problem. 00:12:27.320 --> 00:12:30.320 Because you're surrounded by the low and the dark. 00:12:30.440 --> 00:12:34.540 You're surrounded by people that are going through these hard situations. 00:12:34.960 --> 00:12:43.720 And I've had lots of conversations with digital and metaverse pastors, virtual reality pastors, who feel that weight coming on them. 00:12:43.920 --> 00:12:47.960 It's almost like the secondhand smoke can hurt the non-smoker. 00:12:48.400 --> 00:12:54.020 The secondhand trauma, kind of experiencing that, can be a weight on you. 00:12:54.020 --> 00:12:59.240 And that's not to stop doing the ministry, but it's understanding how to feel that tension. 00:12:59.360 --> 00:13:07.020 Stuart, have you ever, as you're doing ministry and virtual reality in the wild, wild west, do you ever feel some of that tension or some of that weight? 00:13:07.240 --> 00:13:07.660 Every day. 00:13:07.840 --> 00:13:11.240 God has made it very clear that He is my only rest. 00:13:12.200 --> 00:13:20.520 And in the midst of those moments that consistently happen in such a dark place, He's made it clear that He'll carry me through it. 00:13:20.880 --> 00:13:21.180 Wow. 00:13:21.440 --> 00:13:23.780 I literally could not do it without Him. 00:13:24.020 --> 00:13:26.740 So what does that, what does this look like? 00:13:27.060 --> 00:13:34.380 Like, how, is there a tangible, is there a practical, is it God is literally saying these words? 00:13:34.380 --> 00:13:36.080 I don't know what's coming out of my mouth. 00:13:36.640 --> 00:13:37.620 Like, describe this for me. 00:13:37.840 --> 00:13:39.220 It's just a crying out to Him. 00:13:41.020 --> 00:13:42.420 And He gives you the strength. 00:13:43.440 --> 00:13:47.220 He gives you the things to say in the midst of those suicidal conversations. 00:13:48.220 --> 00:13:54.440 And He gives you the strength afterwards when you realize that that's all that's around you. 00:13:55.040 --> 00:13:59.640 And in the midst of this darkness, it's everyone around you is pretty much suicidal. 00:14:00.320 --> 00:14:02.500 And so He is our hope. 00:14:03.100 --> 00:14:04.880 He's the only hope that we have. 00:14:04.940 --> 00:14:06.440 And He's the only true hope that's here. 00:14:06.640 --> 00:14:08.560 So there's a little bit of your story. 00:14:08.640 --> 00:14:10.320 And I want to pry a little bit here. 00:14:10.640 --> 00:14:19.660 And I don't know if it's the suicidal piece or this, but like you were a, I mean, I, yeah, I'm going to go ahead and say it this way. 00:14:19.820 --> 00:14:23.820 You were a VR chat user before you were a VR chat pastor. 00:14:23.820 --> 00:14:31.160 And I've heard a little bit of your story where, you know, you were the guy that was in the low, the dark places. 00:14:32.340 --> 00:14:37.940 And so could you, would you feel comfortable maybe just sharing a little bit of us for us? 00:14:38.140 --> 00:14:54.800 My context here, and audience, what I want to throw at you is that Stewart is actually a beautiful example, his story of somebody that found Christ and is now multiplying and pouring back into virtual reality. 00:14:54.900 --> 00:15:04.340 Like, this is an example of somebody that was taken from VR and is now doing ministry in it. 00:15:04.720 --> 00:15:08.020 So, Stewart, maybe as we're talking here a little bit, set your story. 00:15:08.160 --> 00:15:13.020 Tell us a little bit about your, maybe what your life looked like in virtual reality before Christ. 00:15:13.460 --> 00:15:18.840 So, VR chat is like, you're riding a high roller coaster. 00:15:19.160 --> 00:15:25.080 You're trying to figure out where the next high is to be able to find where the next glimpse of hope is. 00:15:26.160 --> 00:15:30.900 So, I mean, you've got, you've got so many areas that you can go to in VR chat. 00:15:31.240 --> 00:15:35.160 It's, it's, it's so hard to even like put into words. 00:15:36.540 --> 00:15:39.640 You've got clubs that are in hell. 00:15:40.100 --> 00:15:46.980 Like, um, my, my time in VR chat before I was a Christian was just me trying to seek that hope. 00:15:47.640 --> 00:15:50.740 Um, and I found a good amount of friend groups from it. 00:15:50.840 --> 00:15:51.740 It's really awesome. 00:15:52.040 --> 00:15:53.660 It's a really awesome place socially. 00:15:53.900 --> 00:15:57.920 Um, majority of people jump into VR chat just because of its social aspect. 00:15:58.540 --> 00:16:06.680 Um, and so I, IRL, uh, just had, uh, finished a six year relationship. 00:16:07.620 --> 00:16:14.880 Um, and it really brought me into my darkest time because of the decision she made afterwards. 00:16:15.540 --> 00:16:30.300 And, um, and so in the midst of my time in there where I was trying to find some sort of happiness, um, IRL, I had a divine intervention moment that really brought me out of it. 00:16:30.300 --> 00:16:46.240 IRL, IRL, in real life, um, do you, do you feel your, your pre-Christ, pre-Christ, was your approach in virtual reality, was that the same as it was physically? 00:16:46.240 --> 00:16:54.100 Like the, the low dark, were you able to separate the spheres or do you feel like virtually and physically melded into one? 00:16:54.720 --> 00:16:57.040 I, I, I was, I would say I could separate them. 00:16:57.820 --> 00:16:58.260 Okay. 00:16:58.440 --> 00:17:07.840 I would say that I, I reached out to that, um, to sort of go deep within myself and, um, on face value, I was different. 00:17:08.280 --> 00:17:12.040 Do you feel like people knew you physically as well as virtually or vice versa? 00:17:12.600 --> 00:17:12.820 Yeah. 00:17:13.440 --> 00:17:14.000 Oh yeah. 00:17:14.540 --> 00:17:17.960 Um, VR is a place where you can actually be real. 00:17:18.460 --> 00:17:29.780 You can, you can, you know, people say it and I don't really like repeating it much, but you know, you can, you can jump into a conversation and if it gets uncomfortable, you could just log off or you can go to the next road and find someone new to talk to. 00:17:30.240 --> 00:17:43.020 Um, there's a lot of comfortability and anonymity there, but at the same time, it can become so real and raw that it, it gets down to the deepest things that, um, that you've struggled with your entire life. 00:17:43.200 --> 00:17:48.700 Have you watched this, you know, I watched this documentary on HBO Max, the, the, we, we met in VR. 00:17:49.240 --> 00:17:49.780 I haven't yet. 00:17:50.080 --> 00:18:01.520 So it's, um, they, over the past couple of years, my, my, I believe during the COVID season, someone actually shot a documentary, um, 100% filmed in VR chat. 00:18:02.100 --> 00:18:15.880 And, uh, I mean, it was, I think it followed, you can look it up at HBO Max if you want, but I believe it followed three or four couples, um, uh, three or four people and the relationships that they had. 00:18:15.880 --> 00:18:23.200 And, and so one of, one of the person ended up having like, uh, a group of friends that they knew very well in virtual reality. 00:18:23.860 --> 00:18:30.480 Um, one actually turned into like two different couples that they, that were romantically intertwined. 00:18:30.480 --> 00:18:32.740 And one of them actually got married in virtual reality. 00:18:33.420 --> 00:18:43.920 Um, and so it was really interesting to see the, um, the relational dynamic in this space moving even beyond the, yeah, okay. 00:18:43.920 --> 00:18:45.480 The low dark is, is a thing. 00:18:45.980 --> 00:18:54.340 Um, and some of what they spoke to was, was low dark and finding relationships and finding peace coming out of it. 00:18:54.840 --> 00:18:58.440 Um, but there were even like the couple that got married. 00:18:58.860 --> 00:19:01.440 Some of you are like, no, wait, did they really get married? 00:19:01.520 --> 00:19:03.460 Like, was there, I'm not really sure. 00:19:03.460 --> 00:19:07.360 Like, to be honest with you, I don't know what it means to get married in virtual reality. 00:19:07.620 --> 00:19:08.720 I could speak into that. 00:19:09.620 --> 00:19:10.300 Yeah, go ahead. 00:19:10.340 --> 00:19:12.020 What does it mean to get married in virtual reality? 00:19:12.580 --> 00:19:13.280 Yeah, for sure. 00:19:13.380 --> 00:19:16.600 I, I've had a, I've had a lot of relationships in VR before I was a Christian. 00:19:16.600 --> 00:19:20.620 Um, in the midst of me trying to find hope, that was one of the avenues that I took. 00:19:20.980 --> 00:19:23.180 I almost got on a plane to go meet a few of them. 00:19:23.640 --> 00:19:26.520 Um, first, like I was in the, I was in the middle of that. 00:19:26.620 --> 00:19:29.000 I've been to weddings, some really awesome weddings. 00:19:29.260 --> 00:19:36.840 One with a lady, uh, it was a Star Wars wedding and she had a wedding gown that she spent like 1500 bucks on for someone else to make. 00:19:36.840 --> 00:19:38.820 And whoo, that thing was nice. 00:19:39.500 --> 00:19:42.440 Um, and to them, it was real for sure. 00:19:43.080 --> 00:19:50.880 But, um, you'll find that over time, they realized that the reason that they reached into the space was to find that hope. 00:19:51.680 --> 00:19:53.800 And usually it's not lasting. 00:19:54.260 --> 00:19:59.700 So while it's absolutely real to them in the moment, it, it's never really works. 00:20:00.780 --> 00:20:02.160 But there are some stories. 00:20:02.760 --> 00:20:05.320 Yeah, I mean, we're all looking for a new hope, uh, no pun intended. 00:20:05.320 --> 00:20:06.180 Well, yeah, pun intended. 00:20:06.960 --> 00:20:07.560 Star Wars. 00:20:07.880 --> 00:20:19.560 But, uh, so it, it's, it's, and that's what like the documentary even showed like this, um, VR chat couple that was romantically intertwined actually meeting together for the first time. 00:20:20.120 --> 00:20:24.520 Um, I believe in a parking garage and it's just, it's, it's surreal. 00:20:24.780 --> 00:20:30.580 The, um, I mean, it's multinational, uh, the, at least the stories they pulled were multinational. 00:20:30.580 --> 00:20:46.720 It's just the, the culture that's entwined here and, uh, whether it's healthy or not healthy, whether it's short term or whether it's long term, uh, the fact that people are finding community in that space cannot be negotiated. 00:20:47.220 --> 00:21:00.560 Uh, like that is a, is a thing and it's, and it's happening and it's, and I love seeing churches like Cornerstone, uh, leaning into this space and, and, and trying to do ministry. 00:21:00.580 --> 00:21:09.280 To build relationships, to connect with those relationships and point people to Christ, you know, even in the red light district of, of virtual reality. 00:21:09.480 --> 00:21:11.720 So it's, it's a, it's a beautiful thing. 00:21:12.340 --> 00:21:15.820 How specifically, how did you, how did you find Jesus? 00:21:16.360 --> 00:21:18.560 So long story, good question, long story. 00:21:19.240 --> 00:21:33.240 Um, so in that darkness, uh, when I had my divine intervention moment, um, I then realized that he was real, that he was true. 00:21:33.860 --> 00:21:41.260 Um, and I came to Jesus from a realization of him being real, um, through Cornerstone. 00:21:41.260 --> 00:21:46.380 Actually, I jumped into, uh, VR chat, uh, uh, a church that was in VR chat. 00:21:46.460 --> 00:21:49.260 I just looked it up when I got home because, you know, that's where I spent all my time. 00:21:49.620 --> 00:21:50.860 Um, didn't really work out. 00:21:51.360 --> 00:21:53.740 Um, wasn't really a gospel preaching. 00:21:54.000 --> 00:21:58.740 And, um, and so they said, Oh, we've got a sister church called Cornerstone. 00:21:58.740 --> 00:22:03.680 So I went over to Cornerstone and AltSpace, downloaded the app, um, hung out there. 00:22:04.120 --> 00:22:09.380 And Jason Poling, the pastor of Cornerstone led me to Christ and discipled me. 00:22:09.380 --> 00:22:11.580 I mean, let's, let's, let's dig into that. 00:22:11.660 --> 00:22:18.060 I'm, I'm curious what led you to Christ in goggles, in avatar form. 00:22:18.700 --> 00:22:21.360 Um, what was that like a five minute? 00:22:21.460 --> 00:22:24.240 What, what, what did that actually look like in virtual reality? 00:22:24.600 --> 00:22:30.140 Uh, it's just a, it's just a time of, uh, of weeping, um, and, and realizing that it's time. 00:22:30.600 --> 00:22:33.120 Uh, I grew up in a church home all my life. 00:22:33.680 --> 00:22:38.600 Uh, I was, uh, my, my, my parents are, are very, uh, strong Christians. 00:22:39.380 --> 00:22:41.900 And, uh, I never took it seriously. 00:22:41.900 --> 00:22:47.160 I was always the, in the back room, uh, where the choirs, uh, where the choir came out right 00:22:47.160 --> 00:22:47.760 before they sung. 00:22:47.840 --> 00:22:50.480 And I would hang out there, sneak in, eat donuts all day. 00:22:50.480 --> 00:22:52.540 And then, uh, church went in and I'd go home. 00:22:52.740 --> 00:22:53.540 That was all I did. 00:22:53.660 --> 00:22:55.480 It was just, uh, I didn't understand it. 00:22:55.780 --> 00:22:55.920 Yeah. 00:22:55.980 --> 00:22:59.440 I mean, did, did he like sit down and have a five minute conversation with you? 00:22:59.520 --> 00:23:01.920 Is he, is he quoting scripture to you? 00:23:02.020 --> 00:23:03.820 What, what does it actually look like? 00:23:03.880 --> 00:23:04.860 Were other people involved? 00:23:05.120 --> 00:23:09.100 What does it look like to, to accept Christ in virtual reality? 00:23:09.380 --> 00:23:11.340 It was actually, it was just a time of weeping. 00:23:11.900 --> 00:23:14.620 Um, and so he took me through the gospel. 00:23:15.080 --> 00:23:19.940 Um, he used, uh, there's, there's little pins in the world that we were in, in VR chat. 00:23:20.040 --> 00:23:21.260 He actually led me in VR chat. 00:23:21.260 --> 00:23:26.760 He went over to my, uh, to my home VR thing from alt space, uh, and took me to the gospel 00:23:26.760 --> 00:23:33.940 and, uh, did, you know, the, the, um, where you got a cliff and you got man and sin and 00:23:33.940 --> 00:23:35.240 God, uh, yeah. 00:23:35.400 --> 00:23:40.620 And he, he took me through all of that and, um, it was just a beautiful time. 00:23:41.280 --> 00:23:43.540 So now, I mean, so you found Christ. 00:23:43.800 --> 00:23:45.140 What are you, what are you doing? 00:23:45.640 --> 00:23:46.840 What are you doing now? 00:23:47.180 --> 00:23:53.060 So you, you mentioned you direct a church, um, where in a, in a virtual reality worlds 00:23:53.060 --> 00:23:54.640 where strip clubs are a thing. 00:23:54.640 --> 00:23:59.680 Uh, so what, what is your church ministry still attached to Cornerstone? 00:23:59.760 --> 00:24:00.460 What does that look like? 00:24:00.900 --> 00:24:07.380 I think it most compares to a, um, congregational pastor at an IRL church. 00:24:07.720 --> 00:24:10.080 Um, I shepherd the flock there. 00:24:10.240 --> 00:24:12.660 I, um, I do all kind of tech stuff. 00:24:12.800 --> 00:24:14.100 Uh, I created the world. 00:24:14.100 --> 00:24:18.940 So I do everything in relation to that, um, figure out the worship, all that kind of stuff. 00:24:18.940 --> 00:24:25.640 So I sort of, um, I, I run events throughout the week, uh, reach out to people, all that 00:24:25.640 --> 00:24:26.100 kind of stuff. 00:24:26.440 --> 00:24:31.920 So you're doing that in, in virtual reality, you're doing that in discord, um, as well. 00:24:32.120 --> 00:24:35.620 I'm just curious, this may be way too much in the weeds. 00:24:36.380 --> 00:24:42.700 Are, are, are, is your discord the same discord as, as the Altspace VR or are, are they separate 00:24:42.700 --> 00:24:43.080 discords? 00:24:43.440 --> 00:24:44.920 Yeah, we're completely connected. 00:24:45.640 --> 00:24:51.880 Um, we've found that separating it out, um, brings down engagement a good amount. 00:24:52.220 --> 00:24:52.440 Awesome. 00:24:52.520 --> 00:24:53.760 Hey, I forgot to ask you a question. 00:24:53.840 --> 00:24:54.320 Let's back up. 00:24:54.380 --> 00:24:55.120 This is, this is a good one. 00:24:55.580 --> 00:24:58.180 Um, you accepted Christ in virtual reality. 00:24:58.480 --> 00:25:00.940 Your parents are involved, uh, in church. 00:25:01.540 --> 00:25:06.740 Um, did you, I'm, I'm assuming you told them like, were they like, yes. 00:25:06.740 --> 00:25:08.240 Were they like, what's virtual reality? 00:25:08.400 --> 00:25:11.820 Like, what was their response when you told them about your life change in VR? 00:25:12.220 --> 00:25:13.220 Yeah, they were overjoyed. 00:25:13.440 --> 00:25:15.400 I mean, you know, the parents, they've been praying. 00:25:16.600 --> 00:25:23.740 I, uh, I, I thought that I, I gave my life, I became saved when I was in about sixth grade, 00:25:23.860 --> 00:25:26.580 um, at a church camp my parents forced me to go to. 00:25:26.920 --> 00:25:30.460 Um, it was the first time that I corporately felt the presence of the Holy Spirit. 00:25:30.940 --> 00:25:33.400 And, uh, I didn't really know what that meant. 00:25:33.520 --> 00:25:35.320 And I didn't take any steps after that. 00:25:35.320 --> 00:25:36.440 I didn't change my life for him. 00:25:37.000 --> 00:25:40.680 Um, I, I, I just kept living no different whatsoever. 00:25:41.340 --> 00:25:47.120 Um, and so I, I think they realized in the back of their mind that I, I wasn't born again. 00:25:47.720 --> 00:25:58.020 And so, um, yeah, I, I would say they didn't learn about it deeply until God called me to plant a church in the space. 00:25:58.020 --> 00:25:59.620 So let's talk about that calling. 00:25:59.960 --> 00:26:01.620 What does that mean? 00:26:01.940 --> 00:26:06.000 God's calling you to plant the church in, in this space in VR chat. 00:26:06.060 --> 00:26:06.760 What does that mean to you? 00:26:07.060 --> 00:26:10.300 So we have a, we have a thing called, we call it dream team. 00:26:10.420 --> 00:26:11.660 It's just a volunteer team. 00:26:11.980 --> 00:26:14.700 It meets weekly and, uh, we discuss everything that's happening. 00:26:15.140 --> 00:26:20.800 And, um, and God put it on my heart that he wanted me to do that, um, very clearly. 00:26:21.800 --> 00:26:23.940 Uh, it was just a direct call. 00:26:25.200 --> 00:26:28.640 So like, what, what do you do then you, so you've got this call. 00:26:29.920 --> 00:26:33.300 Um, I'm guessing you talked to Jay Poe. 00:26:33.360 --> 00:26:34.360 What was his response? 00:26:34.500 --> 00:26:37.420 What have you, what have been some next steps that you've done since then? 00:26:37.680 --> 00:26:42.740 So that night I downloaded the things I needed to, to build the world and never build anything in my life. 00:26:42.740 --> 00:26:49.480 I was, I mean, I'm a gamer, but when it comes to that kind of stuff, you could pull Billy Bob off the side of the road and he would be equal to what I was then. 00:26:50.020 --> 00:26:59.860 Um, and, and that night I started building, um, and he kept putting the images in my head of how he wanted me, how, how he wanted the world to look, what I needed to do. 00:27:00.380 --> 00:27:03.620 Um, and in a week I'd spend 120 hours and I'd finished. 00:27:03.960 --> 00:27:06.300 So 120 hours. 00:27:07.140 --> 00:27:08.540 How many hours are there in a week? 00:27:09.240 --> 00:27:09.600 167? 00:27:10.620 --> 00:27:10.980 168? 00:27:11.080 --> 00:27:11.680 Something like that. 00:27:11.820 --> 00:27:17.360 So, so like you, you spent 75% of, of time in general. 00:27:17.440 --> 00:27:18.240 Yeah, it took a week off. 00:27:18.240 --> 00:27:26.120 I mean, I don't want to be like, all you did was like this and sleep, but it sounds like that's probably what you did to build out the VR world. 00:27:27.000 --> 00:27:32.580 Um, how does Jason or Goose, um, how do they help you? 00:27:32.660 --> 00:27:34.620 Like technical aspects is beautiful. 00:27:35.280 --> 00:27:42.260 How does Jason or Goose help you towards maybe some of the pastoral aspects, uh, the shepherding, the caring for it? 00:27:42.260 --> 00:27:51.880 Like I'm sensing you're a very kind of abrupt to the point person, but even through that, I'm sensing the heart that you have for the low and the dark and for the people in this space. 00:27:52.280 --> 00:27:56.740 How are they helping prepare you, um, to do ministry in these worlds? 00:27:57.180 --> 00:28:00.940 In this kind of a space, you can't really be prepared by anyone but God, to be honest with you. 00:28:01.300 --> 00:28:09.860 Um, so it's a constant running to him, but, uh, it does require a support team, um, in the midst of those times where you need to crown someone's shoulder. 00:28:10.260 --> 00:28:13.240 And, uh, Cornerstone has been a great support team for that. 00:28:13.640 --> 00:28:14.680 So talk a little bit about that. 00:28:14.720 --> 00:28:15.640 How are they providing support? 00:28:15.800 --> 00:28:15.980 Yeah. 00:28:16.140 --> 00:28:16.920 I mean, they're just there. 00:28:17.260 --> 00:28:22.200 Um, they, they, they, they have classes that I could take if, if I wanted to, uh, and get deeper. 00:28:22.680 --> 00:28:28.660 But ultimately they're there for me to talk and, um, they've experienced a lot of this stuff a lot more than I have. 00:28:29.200 --> 00:28:32.040 And so, um, there's someone to speak into. 00:28:32.720 --> 00:28:34.640 Are there, um, are there, are there stories? 00:28:35.020 --> 00:28:37.080 Anything that, uh, you can share at this point? 00:28:37.380 --> 00:28:38.520 Just straight stories. 00:28:39.900 --> 00:28:43.840 What, what, what is, so like, what, what does an average day look like? 00:28:43.900 --> 00:28:45.180 What does a weekend look like? 00:28:45.260 --> 00:28:52.060 What is a, what's a Tuesday afternoon look like in the life of, uh, a Cornerstone VR chat? 00:28:52.060 --> 00:28:57.760 So, um, for instance, on Thursdays, we have, uh, we have a worship event. 00:28:58.120 --> 00:29:06.500 And so, um, we have 20 some people that come into the church campus in a VR chat, join off me. 00:29:06.580 --> 00:29:11.200 And we, uh, we sing praises for about an hour, an hour straight. 00:29:12.020 --> 00:29:14.020 And, um, and then we read scripture after. 00:29:14.400 --> 00:29:19.500 And I found that for a lot of people that come, um, they can bring their friends and everything. 00:29:19.500 --> 00:29:23.920 We found that a lot of people that come, it's the only time that they really get scripture, uh, into them. 00:29:24.140 --> 00:29:29.160 And so we just straight read through like three chapters, uh, in the gospels. 00:29:29.880 --> 00:29:30.920 And, uh, yeah. 00:29:31.360 --> 00:29:40.400 And then, and then normally after that, I'll either go and evangelize in a, in a space and just reach out to those that are hurting. 00:29:41.200 --> 00:29:43.160 Um, what does evangelize look like? 00:29:43.220 --> 00:29:46.860 Are you just walking up to avatars on the, on the street and just sharing Jesus? 00:29:47.520 --> 00:29:56.100 Uh, the direct approach doesn't really help in a space where people reach out to, um, focus on social aspects. 00:29:56.660 --> 00:30:11.640 Um, you really need to, um, to let them know that you are someone that they could feel comfortable talking to before you get into those deep kind of conversations. 00:30:11.640 --> 00:30:23.240 Because they have so much, um, so much built up emotions and struggles that they're waiting for the right person to come to, to tell them to. 00:30:23.560 --> 00:30:26.820 And they need to make sure that you're that person before they get to that stage. 00:30:26.980 --> 00:30:28.680 So it is straight up. 00:30:29.000 --> 00:30:33.060 I mean, you've got, you know, you've got people that are, that stand in front of mirrors. 00:30:33.440 --> 00:30:37.860 It's a VR chat thing where they just stand in front of mirrors and sit there and talk to their friends while they're looking into the mirror. 00:30:38.120 --> 00:30:40.360 And they'll do that 12 hours a day, every day of the week. 00:30:41.260 --> 00:30:51.140 Um, so it's just walking up to one of those, one of those people, um, sort of, uh, following where the spirit leads in regards to like who to, who to talk to, what worlds to go to. 00:30:51.640 --> 00:31:02.620 And you just stand there and you just hang out and talk and, um, and you bring that up once you realize, um, what specifically they are struggling with. 00:31:02.780 --> 00:31:10.300 And you really dig into the gospel there and you see how in such darkness, the light of the gospel can really shine through. 00:31:10.580 --> 00:31:12.540 What does it look like to build relationship? 00:31:12.860 --> 00:31:16.420 I mean, you, so you're, even you're, you're talking, you know, somewhat cold. 00:31:17.260 --> 00:31:21.620 Um, are you, does, does this, you know, cause I, you know, 00:31:21.640 --> 00:31:23.340 I can tell, I've, I've, I've, I know stories. 00:31:23.460 --> 00:31:27.600 I've, I've met people that have found Christ like quickly. 00:31:28.060 --> 00:31:32.640 Uh, I found people in virtual reality that have found Christ over an eight month relationship. 00:31:33.420 --> 00:31:43.100 Um, what, what do you feel like, especially in VR chat as liberal as that world is liberal may not be the right word, but hopefully you understand. 00:31:43.780 --> 00:31:48.800 Um, is, is it, is it, is it, is it hard to make relationships quickly? 00:31:48.920 --> 00:31:53.880 Is it hard to get to evangelism and disciple making is, do you find it's quick? 00:31:53.940 --> 00:31:55.800 Is it, is it a, is it a slow burn? 00:31:55.900 --> 00:31:57.460 Kind of like what's your, what's your take on that? 00:31:57.740 --> 00:32:06.820 I think, um, I think, um, when the spirits lead into that conversation, um, you'll find in VR chat specifically that people are ready. 00:32:07.460 --> 00:32:13.680 Um, people have been trying to seek where, uh, where the bread of life is. 00:32:13.740 --> 00:32:15.700 They've, they've, they've tried everything else. 00:32:15.900 --> 00:32:17.800 This is sort of the end for them. 00:32:17.980 --> 00:32:19.880 They've already given up on real life. 00:32:19.880 --> 00:32:22.720 And now they're in this space to try and figure out more options. 00:32:23.480 --> 00:32:34.800 And when they find out that the truth really does lie in Christ, when you give them the gospel, that's where, um, they really find where true hope is. 00:32:35.360 --> 00:32:42.480 So do you, would you classify the average, um, VR chat user as spiritually seeking? 00:32:42.920 --> 00:32:45.080 Uh, do you think that they have an awareness of Jesus? 00:32:45.080 --> 00:32:48.120 They have no awareness of Jesus called to Christ. 00:32:48.440 --> 00:32:52.160 Like, where would you put on, on the, you know, the thermostat? 00:32:52.480 --> 00:32:57.180 Where would the average, uh, uh, VR chat user be? 00:32:57.520 --> 00:33:02.840 The average VR chat user, um, in their mind sees Jesus as a meme. 00:33:03.500 --> 00:33:10.000 Um, something that, uh, old senile people go to and, and, uh, people joke about. 00:33:10.220 --> 00:33:15.060 You've got, I mean, you've got VR chat worlds where Jesus is, is smoking, smoking weed on a cat. 00:33:15.080 --> 00:33:17.400 And then the world's called a church. 00:33:17.980 --> 00:33:19.740 Uh, it gets, it gets crazy. 00:33:20.420 --> 00:33:24.920 What is, what does the average person think about, um, Jesus in virtual reality? 00:33:25.140 --> 00:33:28.140 You'll find that Jesus is really memed in this space. 00:33:28.280 --> 00:33:31.320 Uh, uh, all their friends, they just joke about, uh, Jesus. 00:33:31.620 --> 00:33:35.220 He, you've got worlds where Jesus is, is smoking weed on a couch. 00:33:35.680 --> 00:33:40.340 Um, and, and they also think that it's something that old senile people believe in. 00:33:40.340 --> 00:33:49.960 Um, so in the midst of that, um, joking level that Jesus is to them, they don't understand 00:33:49.960 --> 00:33:51.160 how true it can be. 00:33:51.760 --> 00:33:58.160 And so when someone comes up to them that they feel comfortable talking to, that they feel 00:33:58.160 --> 00:34:04.360 like, um, really blends with them in the space and they start talking and sharing the love 00:34:04.360 --> 00:34:13.360 of Christ, they sort of question all of that and they, um, they reach out to that and realize that, 00:34:13.580 --> 00:34:15.800 no, they have been spiritually seeking this entire time. 00:34:15.900 --> 00:34:16.900 They just didn't realize it. 00:34:17.340 --> 00:34:19.700 What is your volunteer team look like for this? 00:34:19.780 --> 00:34:24.640 Do you have people that serve with you through the VR chat campus? 00:34:25.180 --> 00:34:27.720 Currently, I don't have much of the volunteer team. 00:34:28.080 --> 00:34:35.760 Um, currently I sort of, uh, man, everything I have, uh, I found in VR chat specifically 00:34:35.760 --> 00:34:43.620 that really the only people who have a, um, who, who, who God uses to move mountains are 00:34:43.620 --> 00:34:45.120 the natives that come from it. 00:34:45.280 --> 00:34:50.760 And so it is, it is discipling and bringing people closer in their relationship with Christ 00:34:50.760 --> 00:34:54.600 from the VR chat campus and, um, bringing them back in. 00:34:54.800 --> 00:34:59.320 So we have a few people that, um, that are, are helping out in a few different sections. 00:34:59.800 --> 00:35:06.340 Um, and, uh, one of them, uh, is a friend of mine who found Christ after his mom died. 00:35:06.760 --> 00:35:08.200 Um, his name's Tyler. 00:35:08.620 --> 00:35:09.420 Um, hi Tyler. 00:35:10.660 --> 00:35:17.700 Um, and he, he, he found Christ through Cornerstrom and was discipled alongside me. 00:35:18.100 --> 00:35:25.840 And he, um, he, um, he grew up and, and helped volunteer in the VR chat campus and he is just 00:35:25.840 --> 00:35:27.420 now starting to disciple somebody. 00:35:27.580 --> 00:35:29.100 So we're just seeing the fruits of that. 00:35:29.580 --> 00:35:33.700 So when you say disciple, this was, this is even a throwback to another one, by the way, 00:35:33.820 --> 00:35:35.200 pause, I'll come back to disciple. 00:35:35.760 --> 00:35:39.600 It doesn't surprise me that you're having a hard time recruiting volunteers for this. 00:35:40.260 --> 00:35:45.740 Um, it's, it's why I, I didn't know, but I kind of, I phrased the question knowing he's 00:35:45.740 --> 00:35:48.440 going to probably say no to this because he's struggling with it. 00:35:48.480 --> 00:35:49.920 And that's, that's not about you. 00:35:50.220 --> 00:35:57.440 It's that this mission field is so unique that you need to find people that understand it. 00:35:57.860 --> 00:36:04.180 And we've not, we big C church have not been able to truthfully at this point, paint the 00:36:04.180 --> 00:36:06.420 picture of what VR chat is. 00:36:06.420 --> 00:36:10.140 Um, it's, um, it's a lot safer to go into all space. 00:36:10.360 --> 00:36:15.580 I mean, even rec room is, is minimal compared to VR chat. 00:36:15.700 --> 00:36:21.680 That being said, VR chat numbers are through the roof, um, compared to these other worlds, 00:36:21.680 --> 00:36:24.700 like the, the users, um, that are in the space. 00:36:24.700 --> 00:36:32.120 And I've said low dark, maybe 50 times today, but like that is very much within that, that 00:36:32.120 --> 00:36:32.700 environment. 00:36:33.060 --> 00:36:39.060 Uh, and so I want to encourage you as you're, as you're doing this, as you're discipling, 00:36:39.120 --> 00:36:46.060 as you're trying to multiply from within, uh, that is the organizational win for you. 00:36:46.060 --> 00:36:53.460 That's the multiplicative, that's the missional win, um, is, is raising up from within. 00:36:53.760 --> 00:37:00.180 I honestly, even like the other, as I've tried to cast vision for other churches to go into 00:37:00.180 --> 00:37:06.420 VR chat, uh, the people that are in VR chat want to go into VR chat. 00:37:06.420 --> 00:37:15.160 The people that don't are new to VR entirely, very rarely, maybe one or two exceptions, very 00:37:15.160 --> 00:37:20.580 rarely will, will they want to, uh, because it's low, because it's dark, because it's messy, 00:37:20.580 --> 00:37:29.220 because it's complicated, um, because, um, it's not as clean as alt space or as, um, nothing 00:37:29.220 --> 00:37:33.380 against meta horizons even, but it's just, it's, it's a whole different world. 00:37:34.840 --> 00:37:39.320 So tell me, let's back up here a little bit, um, discipleship. 00:37:39.380 --> 00:37:41.320 So you're trying to multiply somebody. 00:37:41.940 --> 00:37:44.920 Um, what, what does that look like in, in virtual reality? 00:37:45.160 --> 00:37:47.240 Currently, I go through a curriculum. 00:37:47.580 --> 00:37:51.140 Um, I go through navigators with the majority of the people, and that's usually where we 00:37:51.140 --> 00:37:51.720 start out at. 00:37:51.860 --> 00:37:57.320 And we do have sort of discipleship, um, funnel that we take people through, um, that brings 00:37:57.320 --> 00:37:58.400 them through everything. 00:37:58.400 --> 00:38:02.740 And if they're called to preach, even brings them to the opportunity to, um, to learn how 00:38:02.740 --> 00:38:03.240 to do that. 00:38:03.580 --> 00:38:04.920 Um, if they're called to. 00:38:05.580 --> 00:38:09.240 Um, and, um, and so it's really just about being with people. 00:38:09.540 --> 00:38:15.440 Um, it's really about, uh, I, I disciple a handful of people, I take an hour and a half 00:38:15.440 --> 00:38:22.660 every week and, um, and just sit with them and talk, um, go through any, any, any discipleship 00:38:22.660 --> 00:38:32.900 kind of books, but, um, but you'll find that the curriculum really doesn't, um, it doesn't 00:38:32.900 --> 00:38:34.320 help as much as just being with them. 00:38:34.840 --> 00:38:40.840 Um, so I'm actually, uh, about to get started on, uh, creating a discipleship, uh, curriculum 00:38:40.840 --> 00:38:42.240 or VRChat as a whole. 00:38:42.620 --> 00:38:45.640 Um, that really fits with the people inside a bit more. 00:38:45.640 --> 00:38:46.080 Wow. 00:38:46.620 --> 00:38:51.580 I'm just curious, what's the contextualization, uh, that just, that fits within the VR people? 00:38:52.140 --> 00:38:56.220 What are you sensing that you would need to do different to, to fit in their context? 00:38:56.620 --> 00:38:59.980 I, I don't think that I have an answer for that. 00:39:00.280 --> 00:39:05.260 Um, it is, it's not really something that I can, um, put into words. 00:39:05.560 --> 00:39:08.780 It just, um, you know how VR is. 00:39:08.840 --> 00:39:09.940 It's a lot of trial and error. 00:39:10.080 --> 00:39:13.760 And when it comes to VRChat, it's, um, it's a different ballgame. 00:39:13.760 --> 00:39:18.340 I want, I, I, I would love to help you with that, to, to, to crack that. 00:39:18.960 --> 00:39:23.760 Um, we'll talk off that, that I was not fishing for that, but that, that's, that's intriguing. 00:39:24.080 --> 00:39:26.180 So we'll, uh, we'll, we'll, we'll dig into that. 00:39:26.740 --> 00:39:34.760 Um, is it hard to get people talking to, to get these conversations in, uh, in VRChat? 00:39:35.080 --> 00:39:39.100 The, the church as a whole should go into VRChat and evangelize. 00:39:39.540 --> 00:39:41.260 Like no holding back. 00:39:41.560 --> 00:39:46.880 Um, the people in there are hurting and everyone should go and evangelize in there. 00:39:47.040 --> 00:39:52.120 Just understand, um, like you said, with secondhand smoking, uh, it's, it's going to hurt you. 00:39:52.520 --> 00:39:53.460 So be prepared. 00:39:53.980 --> 00:39:59.300 You know, one of the low, dark stories that I've had, and I, and I quoted this, um, in, in the book was, 00:39:59.400 --> 00:40:03.100 I, I met a girl, uh, who told me that she was raped. 00:40:03.680 --> 00:40:07.660 She literally used the word raped, uh, in VRChat. 00:40:08.700 --> 00:40:11.060 And, um, she was so affected. 00:40:11.160 --> 00:40:12.100 This was years ago. 00:40:12.640 --> 00:40:13.840 When did VRChat start? 00:40:14.000 --> 00:40:14.600 I have no idea. 00:40:15.180 --> 00:40:15.400 Yeah. 00:40:15.480 --> 00:40:20.420 I mean, this, this, this is an old story and she told it like it was an old story. 00:40:20.900 --> 00:40:28.820 Um, but she was, uh, she was raped in, in the space and, uh, she was so, um, traumatically damaged 00:40:28.820 --> 00:40:37.280 that unknowingly, anytime I said the word VRChat, she had a, a twitch, a, a physical reaction 00:40:37.280 --> 00:40:39.780 to every time that I said it. 00:40:39.800 --> 00:40:40.880 She was listening to me speak. 00:40:40.880 --> 00:40:45.420 And unfortunately I said VRChat maybe half a dozen times before I really realized what 00:40:45.420 --> 00:40:46.960 was happening, uh, in the room. 00:40:47.080 --> 00:40:51.120 I, I literally, I thought just like she was having a seizure, but it was just like reaction 00:40:51.120 --> 00:40:53.300 to me saying the word, which is weird. 00:40:53.820 --> 00:40:58.520 Uh, but that's a, a commonality that, that I've seen more and more as we get into the low 00:40:58.520 --> 00:41:00.900 dark areas here in, in VRChat. 00:41:01.000 --> 00:41:02.180 But it was, it was interesting. 00:41:02.700 --> 00:41:06.620 This, this girl, and I talk about it in, in the, in the book I just published. 00:41:07.160 --> 00:41:10.840 The, um, she told me, she's like, Jeff, the church has no business. 00:41:11.440 --> 00:41:12.300 Being in VRChat. 00:41:12.760 --> 00:41:18.140 Because of what happened to me in VRChat, the church has no business being in there. 00:41:18.540 --> 00:41:19.680 Uh, it should stay away. 00:41:20.720 --> 00:41:26.080 And, uh, unfortunately I had to correct her and, and tell her because of what's happening 00:41:26.080 --> 00:41:31.700 to you, what happened to you in VRChat is exactly why we need to be in there. 00:41:32.380 --> 00:41:36.060 Um, and so I, I would challenge a lot of you out there. 00:41:36.060 --> 00:41:40.580 This podcast is a, this is a bleeding edge podcast. 00:41:40.760 --> 00:41:42.680 Okay, look, we're not going to short sell this. 00:41:42.820 --> 00:41:46.720 If you want to learn how to do like better online small groups, there's plenty of other 00:41:46.720 --> 00:41:50.340 groups, plenty of other podcasts and people that can help you in that. 00:41:50.400 --> 00:41:52.180 That's not, that's not why you're listening to me. 00:41:52.660 --> 00:41:58.400 Um, but for many of you, this, this stuff, VRChat, um, is not clean. 00:41:58.460 --> 00:41:59.280 It's not simple. 00:41:59.360 --> 00:42:00.240 It's not pretty. 00:42:00.820 --> 00:42:03.380 Uh, it's, it's not your typical church. 00:42:03.380 --> 00:42:05.180 And so for, for many of you, it's scary. 00:42:05.500 --> 00:42:07.440 And maybe it should be scary for you. 00:42:08.020 --> 00:42:13.280 Um, maybe there's a couple of you out there that could look at this as an opportunity. 00:42:13.780 --> 00:42:15.000 It should be scary for you. 00:42:15.280 --> 00:42:16.680 Oh, unpack that. 00:42:16.820 --> 00:42:17.500 Go for it, Stuart. 00:42:17.820 --> 00:42:19.100 Why should this be scary? 00:42:19.440 --> 00:42:20.720 I mean, it's a scary place. 00:42:20.840 --> 00:42:24.460 You've got people, you got people running around in circles saying the worst things that you've 00:42:24.460 --> 00:42:25.280 ever heard in your life. 00:42:25.540 --> 00:42:29.540 You've got people going into a church and they're attempting to crash the service in 00:42:29.540 --> 00:42:30.320 any way possible. 00:42:30.500 --> 00:42:32.660 They come specifically to disrupt. 00:42:33.300 --> 00:42:35.840 Um, so yeah, it should be scary for sure. 00:42:36.180 --> 00:42:37.660 But that's exactly why we need to be there. 00:42:38.000 --> 00:42:42.240 Uh, because the reason they're doing that is because of the pain that they have. 00:42:42.680 --> 00:42:43.580 Well, let me ask you this. 00:42:43.860 --> 00:42:48.740 Um, churches that are wrestling with doing this, uh, you know, not, not even like all space. 00:42:48.820 --> 00:42:49.420 Let's focus. 00:42:49.620 --> 00:42:51.280 They're good into the scary stuff. 00:42:51.820 --> 00:42:54.300 Um, what advice would you give them? 00:42:54.300 --> 00:42:58.800 What advice would you give a church that was starting out or really starting to explore 00:42:58.800 --> 00:43:01.280 the idea of VR, uh, VR chat? 00:43:01.400 --> 00:43:02.340 I'll be honest with you here, Jeff. 00:43:02.440 --> 00:43:06.140 I don't think that a church should come into VR chat unless they're very specifically called 00:43:06.140 --> 00:43:07.140 to come into VR chat. 00:43:07.560 --> 00:43:07.860 Interesting. 00:43:07.920 --> 00:43:15.820 I have seen damage, um, that has happened from churches in the space, um, that, um, really 00:43:15.820 --> 00:43:17.800 are not preaching the gospel as it should be. 00:43:18.220 --> 00:43:21.820 Um, and, and have had to take people through the damage that that has caused. 00:43:22.520 --> 00:43:25.980 Um, so yeah, if you're not called, don't come. 00:43:26.740 --> 00:43:28.320 Let's, let's, uh, let's unpack that. 00:43:28.360 --> 00:43:30.000 I would love to, cause I don't, I don't disagree. 00:43:30.700 --> 00:43:35.860 Um, but you know what I've seen in, in many ways, Stuart, and I would put you as an example 00:43:35.860 --> 00:43:36.360 of this. 00:43:36.420 --> 00:43:42.440 I think Alice, uh, queen of hell, uh, Alice in the palace, I think is an example of this 00:43:42.440 --> 00:43:50.040 in rec room, but there are persons of peace in these VR spaces where I just, I've seen 00:43:50.040 --> 00:43:56.200 so much collaboration and opening a person of peace in biblical context is someone who 00:43:56.200 --> 00:44:04.160 would live in an area in a town and would help churches get started in that area or would 00:44:04.160 --> 00:44:10.280 help the, the, the, the missionaries or help the, the, the Jews, like whoever they would 00:44:10.280 --> 00:44:15.780 be the person in the town that would be sympathetic to the calling and would help towards that. 00:44:16.720 --> 00:44:21.320 Um, do you, do you agree with some of my assessment? 00:44:21.420 --> 00:44:23.580 I would, I would love your take completely open and honest here. 00:44:24.000 --> 00:44:30.600 Uh, like my assessment of, of you as a person of peace where you've helped others go into 00:44:30.600 --> 00:44:34.360 that space or better understand that Alice, some of the stuff that she's doing in rec room. 00:44:34.940 --> 00:44:40.200 Do you see that, that potential helping churches getting started in that space? 00:44:40.580 --> 00:44:40.780 I do. 00:44:40.780 --> 00:44:50.000 Um, it takes a very specific kind of, uh, preacher to come into the space, but apart from that, 00:44:50.100 --> 00:44:51.100 yeah, absolutely. 00:44:51.820 --> 00:44:54.400 Um, I'm helping someone right now, actually. 00:44:54.820 --> 00:44:56.440 Um, what are some of that's beautiful? 00:44:56.620 --> 00:45:02.480 What are some of the nuances that you'd have to, um, you said teaching, teaching's different. 00:45:02.960 --> 00:45:03.720 How is it different? 00:45:04.160 --> 00:45:11.920 You have to be, you have to be such a, a specific person to the point of where, um, someone can 00:45:11.920 --> 00:45:16.620 walk into the room and they feel as though you are a part of the culture that they just 00:45:16.620 --> 00:45:18.400 came from and the other world that they just left. 00:45:19.080 --> 00:45:25.120 Um, so usually it requires sort of an ADHD kind of guy who, um, who's a little hectic, 00:45:25.380 --> 00:45:29.100 uh, who's all kinds of squirrel, like, uh, Jason Poling is. 00:45:29.180 --> 00:45:31.680 He's, he's an absolute amazing person for this space. 00:45:32.180 --> 00:45:34.260 Um, and yeah. 00:45:34.660 --> 00:45:39.900 What other, what other differences or nuances do you see maybe between VR chat and either physical 00:45:39.900 --> 00:45:41.060 or other virtual church? 00:45:41.360 --> 00:45:42.420 You mean like between the platforms? 00:45:42.840 --> 00:45:43.040 Yeah. 00:45:43.140 --> 00:45:50.320 When it comes to the social aspect of VR chat, um, I, I find it to be a lot different than 00:45:50.320 --> 00:45:51.080 the other spaces. 00:45:51.860 --> 00:45:57.260 People, uh, people spend more time in the space outside of just the events that they want to 00:45:57.260 --> 00:45:57.740 go to. 00:45:57.980 --> 00:46:01.200 A lot of the other platforms are very event oriented. 00:46:01.680 --> 00:46:07.540 Um, going in and, and hanging out with some friends at the, at a specified time and doing 00:46:07.540 --> 00:46:11.540 all that kind of stuff while VR chat is, um, this is all that I do. 00:46:11.660 --> 00:46:13.980 I come home from work, I get on VR chat. 00:46:14.280 --> 00:46:19.780 Um, like for instance, if you know the space, well, um, you know, that tons of people get 00:46:19.780 --> 00:46:24.220 on, uh, right when they get home from work and they go to a drinking world and play drinking 00:46:24.220 --> 00:46:26.080 games until 4am until they pass out. 00:46:26.080 --> 00:46:28.260 And then they go to work the next day and do the same thing again. 00:46:28.920 --> 00:46:36.260 As a pastor, uh, as a director, as the church in this, are you coming alongside them going 00:46:36.260 --> 00:46:39.700 to the, to the drinking games and, and hanging out? 00:46:39.780 --> 00:46:44.240 Like, like you mentioned, um, Goose was, was preaching in a black cat earlier. 00:46:44.560 --> 00:46:47.980 Like, is, is that, is that how you do ministry in the space? 00:46:48.040 --> 00:46:49.700 You, you engage people where they are? 00:46:50.000 --> 00:46:54.900 Going back to something I said near the beginning, how VR chat is such a big space that it's like 00:46:54.900 --> 00:46:58.920 a world with continents and subcultures within those. 00:46:59.540 --> 00:47:06.500 Um, uh, the, the ultimate win for VR chat, um, when it comes to the church going in is 00:47:06.500 --> 00:47:12.240 to find a subculture that they connect with and to, uh, spend time in that space and bring 00:47:12.240 --> 00:47:17.460 natives out of it and create a church specifically for that subculture where those people connect, 00:47:17.580 --> 00:47:22.100 um, more than just, you know, go into another subculture within the space. 00:47:23.220 --> 00:47:28.360 So yeah, it's definitely a lot of, uh, a lot of time reaching out and spending time with 00:47:28.360 --> 00:47:34.160 those people to see, um, what the struggles are, if, if anything's changed within the space 00:47:34.160 --> 00:47:41.000 and to, um, to really connect with the individual subcultures so that you can try and tap into 00:47:41.000 --> 00:47:42.440 them and bring them to the church. 00:47:42.800 --> 00:47:47.920 So then because you've got these different subcultures, that's multiple contexts. 00:47:48.480 --> 00:47:56.120 So you could really see multiple expressions of church operating in the different continents 00:47:56.120 --> 00:47:57.440 and the cultures context. 00:47:57.700 --> 00:47:58.840 And we were saying lots of C words. 00:47:59.020 --> 00:47:59.840 With needs and everything. 00:48:00.320 --> 00:48:08.260 Um, so I mean, really you could decentralize into multiple expressions, um, scattered across, 00:48:08.440 --> 00:48:13.580 um, I mean, this may be a very aggressive approach, but within, uh, VR chat, because 00:48:13.580 --> 00:48:19.300 That's the hope you're on, you're in one context and you could easily multiply, not easily, 00:48:19.420 --> 00:48:21.060 but you could potentially multiply into others. 00:48:21.520 --> 00:48:22.120 It's beautiful. 00:48:23.040 --> 00:48:24.120 What a challenge. 00:48:26.380 --> 00:48:28.840 What's your, what's your biggest obstacle right now? 00:48:29.100 --> 00:48:34.320 When it comes to the platform itself, the biggest obstacle, um, any church will find when 00:48:34.320 --> 00:48:39.480 going in is the world, um, the instance and how it's locked down. 00:48:39.600 --> 00:48:43.960 All space has where you can broadcast instances and you can get like a ton of people. 00:48:43.960 --> 00:48:47.220 You can get like 4,000 people if you wanted to in the space. 00:48:47.720 --> 00:48:49.840 VR chat is single instanced. 00:48:50.460 --> 00:48:54.900 Um, you can't really broadcast well, unless you're going to do video, which I really would 00:48:54.900 --> 00:48:56.120 not recommend in the space. 00:48:56.440 --> 00:49:00.200 Um, it, it would, it would, it would be worse than it would be good. 00:49:00.620 --> 00:49:05.660 Um, just because of the deep connection that the people have, um, you know, putting up a 00:49:05.660 --> 00:49:10.280 video is, is, is just going to sort of say that what you're doing here isn't real. 00:49:10.540 --> 00:49:12.360 Come, come, come back to the real. 00:49:12.840 --> 00:49:14.000 It doesn't do anything. 00:49:14.820 --> 00:49:16.840 Hey, Stuart, this has been, this has been great, man. 00:49:16.900 --> 00:49:20.400 Listen, I love, well, I love your heart. 00:49:20.520 --> 00:49:24.740 Uh, it's just the first time I've met you doing the multiple shows that, that we've 00:49:24.740 --> 00:49:28.960 done, like you are the, you're the model. 00:49:28.960 --> 00:49:35.460 You're the paradigm, the, the, the guy that finds ministry, that finds Christ in virtual 00:49:35.460 --> 00:49:41.640 reality, and then wants to be released to do ministry in that world so that he can multiply 00:49:41.640 --> 00:49:50.180 himself into others and, and, and bring glory to God, um, in the midst of a dark and low 00:49:50.180 --> 00:49:50.720 world. 00:49:50.900 --> 00:49:57.320 Like I just, it's, uh, it's, it's a pleasure to hang out with you and, uh, and super excited 00:49:57.320 --> 00:49:59.020 about what you're doing. 00:49:59.160 --> 00:50:04.040 You, Goose, JPO, um, oh my gosh, there's so many people over on that team. 00:50:04.120 --> 00:50:08.400 I thought I probably would hesitate to mention them all by name here, but definitely love the 00:50:08.400 --> 00:50:14.060 Cornerstone family, um, and what they're doing in Yuba City and virtual reality and, uh, and 00:50:14.060 --> 00:50:15.880 everywhere, uh, in, in between. 00:50:16.100 --> 00:50:17.060 So, so love it. 00:50:17.540 --> 00:50:21.340 Um, as we're, as we're landing the plane here, Stuart, any, any closing thoughts? 00:50:21.740 --> 00:50:22.420 No, not at all. 00:50:22.660 --> 00:50:28.420 Um, I ended up wearing my VR family union shirt, um, which, uh, we're, we're having another 00:50:28.420 --> 00:50:33.160 one coming up in just a couple of weeks now where we're all, um, flying out over to California 00:50:33.160 --> 00:50:38.460 to hang out, uh, IRL, um, from the different VR chat, the VR chat campus, the outspace campus 00:50:38.460 --> 00:50:39.340 from our different campuses. 00:50:39.880 --> 00:50:46.300 Um, and so when you, when you really seek after, um, this hurting community and really bring 00:50:46.300 --> 00:50:51.840 them to Christ and disciple them, uh, you find that they, uh, that they find that expression, 00:50:51.840 --> 00:50:53.560 um, at a local church. 00:50:53.560 --> 00:50:57.200 Um, they end up coming and hanging out with you, uh, face to face. 00:50:57.480 --> 00:51:00.840 Um, there is no, uh, there's no disconnect. 00:51:01.600 --> 00:51:05.480 Um, it's just one extra step that we have to take to the people that are in our own backyard. 00:51:05.920 --> 00:51:10.980 Hey, this has been a, been a great conversation and I guarantee that we will have Stuart on 00:51:10.980 --> 00:51:15.540 again at some point with his, uh, unique perspective here, but we're going to land the plane 00:51:15.540 --> 00:51:19.840 kind of, sort of before we do remember, uh, Hey, I got a book out. 00:51:20.200 --> 00:51:28.760 And so, um, we wrote, honestly, um, you know, we wrote the book, uh, Jason is in there quite 00:51:28.760 --> 00:51:29.140 a bit. 00:51:29.260 --> 00:51:30.640 Stuart's in there quite a bit. 00:51:31.220 --> 00:51:33.400 Um, I don't, I don't think Goose made it. 00:51:33.560 --> 00:51:38.800 We had wanted, Goose got busy out with some other things, but, um, definitely wanting to 00:51:38.800 --> 00:51:46.360 bring light to the challenges and the opportunities for today's church in virtual reality. 00:51:46.680 --> 00:51:48.200 Yes, it's still an experiment. 00:51:48.580 --> 00:51:53.040 Yes, it's very new in the ecclesiological arguments. 00:51:53.040 --> 00:51:58.880 Um, yeah, theology may or may not improve as the technology improves. 00:51:59.420 --> 00:52:05.020 Uh, but the heart of this is that we have an immense opportunity to engage in a mission 00:52:05.020 --> 00:52:11.640 field, um, like never before, uh, to engage with people across the street and around the 00:52:11.640 --> 00:52:15.220 world virtually at the same time, virtually, pun intended there. 00:52:15.600 --> 00:52:17.420 So, uh, check out the book. 00:52:17.500 --> 00:52:22.600 You can follow the link at thechurch.digital slash VR book, and that'll get you connected. 00:52:22.780 --> 00:52:27.400 You can download it from exponential PDF for free, my gift to you. 00:52:27.860 --> 00:52:33.460 Uh, but if you want to buy it from Amazon, uh, you can get the hard copy from them there. 00:52:33.640 --> 00:52:38.000 And so, thanks, Stuart, for hanging out with me on, uh, the book release here. 00:52:38.600 --> 00:52:43.160 Um, I, uh, well, you know, I was, I actually, I was going to read the quote, uh, in, at some 00:52:43.160 --> 00:52:45.240 point in the book, but you know what? 00:52:45.240 --> 00:52:49.480 You just have to buy the book and see what Stuart said in the book that got unpublished. 00:52:49.540 --> 00:52:54.520 It was, it was a great book about the heart, uh, for ministry in, uh, virtual reality. 00:52:54.680 --> 00:52:57.640 So, uh, we're going to land the plane for Stuart. 00:52:57.820 --> 00:53:02.340 This is, uh, Jeff at the Church Digital, Digital Church Network, Leadership Network, and a whole 00:53:02.340 --> 00:53:03.080 bunch of other fun stuff. 00:53:03.160 --> 00:53:04.280 Thanks for jumping on the show here. 00:53:04.640 --> 00:53:07.460 We'll see you next time, uh, here on the Church Digital Podcast. 00:53:07.780 --> 00:53:08.220 Have a good day.