WEBVTT 00:00:00.080 --> 00:00:05.520 When you are able to lead up and pitch that vision to your lead pastor, this is not just 00:00:05.520 --> 00:00:10.220 for execution, but it's for the journey and how we're treating each other along the way. 00:00:10.940 --> 00:00:15.540 And hopefully that unlocks their heart and gets them to sign up on a concept. 00:00:15.800 --> 00:00:17.520 So I've always found that to be super helpful. 00:00:17.740 --> 00:00:21.780 If you're leading up to a lead pastor, lead with that, or a lead pastor just realized 00:00:21.780 --> 00:00:26.240 you're going to put your staff in a much healthier position by giving them a concept 00:00:26.240 --> 00:00:27.020 much earlier. 00:00:27.020 --> 00:00:29.060 Welcome to the Church Digital Podcast. 00:00:29.700 --> 00:00:33.840 Through this podcast, we'll talk about the technological innovations within the church. 00:00:34.240 --> 00:00:38.340 But more than tech for tech itself, we'll address deeper questions. 00:00:39.160 --> 00:00:41.040 Is disciple making possible digitally? 00:00:41.980 --> 00:00:44.060 How should we approach the digital mission field? 00:00:44.700 --> 00:00:47.580 Can a biblically grounded church operate in digital space? 00:00:48.320 --> 00:00:50.620 Oh, and where does the metaverse fit into all this? 00:00:51.320 --> 00:00:56.680 Whether you're a big or small church, an established church, or a startup church plant, the Church 00:00:56.680 --> 00:01:02.220 Digital's goal is to help churches like yours learn to be a multiplying church, digitally 00:01:02.220 --> 00:01:03.260 and physically. 00:01:03.940 --> 00:01:04.740 Our heart? 00:01:05.220 --> 00:01:10.160 That churches like yours will discover a newfound focus on disciple making that will revolutionize 00:01:10.160 --> 00:01:10.920 your church. 00:01:11.400 --> 00:01:14.240 And now, here's your host, Jeff Reed. 00:01:14.820 --> 00:01:16.980 All right, hey, welcome to the Church Digital Podcast. 00:01:17.680 --> 00:01:21.480 This is a Thanksgiving week here at the podcast. 00:01:21.480 --> 00:01:26.320 So right up front, let's take a moment here, pause and say, happy Thanksgiving if you are 00:01:26.320 --> 00:01:27.080 in the U.S. 00:01:27.560 --> 00:01:34.120 And if you're like our guest from Canada, well, happy Monday, because it's not a thing. 00:01:34.720 --> 00:01:36.380 Thanksgiving may be a thing, but it's not a thing. 00:01:36.400 --> 00:01:37.960 Is Thanksgiving a thing, Ben Stapley? 00:01:38.040 --> 00:01:38.460 You tell me. 00:01:38.500 --> 00:01:39.780 Is Thanksgiving a thing in... 00:01:39.780 --> 00:01:43.420 Jeff Reed, you Americans are so thankless. 00:01:43.520 --> 00:01:45.540 You wait all the way to November to celebrate. 00:01:45.540 --> 00:01:47.420 Us Canadians, we are so thankful. 00:01:47.560 --> 00:01:51.300 We celebrate in October because we just can't wait that long in the year. 00:01:51.540 --> 00:01:54.140 Plus, our harvest season is earlier because it's colder. 00:01:54.300 --> 00:01:57.840 But we're also a more thankful people, so burn on you. 00:01:58.300 --> 00:02:02.420 So what you're telling me is you believe that you are more thankful than Americans because 00:02:02.420 --> 00:02:04.900 you celebrate, like, less than 30 days sooner? 00:02:05.860 --> 00:02:06.940 Yes, it's a whole month. 00:02:07.460 --> 00:02:08.040 You know what? 00:02:08.580 --> 00:02:12.020 We're a 12th more thankful than you are. 00:02:12.080 --> 00:02:12.580 I'll put it there. 00:02:13.000 --> 00:02:14.780 You're a 12th more thankful. 00:02:16.120 --> 00:02:17.760 Maybe, listen, I don't know. 00:02:17.980 --> 00:02:21.180 We can get into a political thing in America, what we're feeling about that. 00:02:21.260 --> 00:02:21.980 I don't want to go there. 00:02:22.580 --> 00:02:23.720 Nobody wants to go there. 00:02:23.800 --> 00:02:25.660 But right now, hey, happy Thanksgiving at least. 00:02:25.860 --> 00:02:28.360 And Ben, happy Thursday coming up this... 00:02:28.360 --> 00:02:29.080 Well, he's in... 00:02:29.080 --> 00:02:33.780 You're in Jersey right now, so maybe you'll enjoy something for Thanksgiving. 00:02:34.420 --> 00:02:36.780 You recognize the holiday, you Canadian, right? 00:02:36.840 --> 00:02:39.560 Like, you're not so biased that you... 00:02:39.560 --> 00:02:39.780 Okay. 00:02:40.660 --> 00:02:41.620 So what is your... 00:02:41.620 --> 00:02:45.660 Listen, as we're totally going off here, which is awesome, what does Thanksgiving look 00:02:45.660 --> 00:02:46.340 like for a Canadian... 00:02:46.340 --> 00:02:47.260 Off the rails already. 00:02:47.440 --> 00:02:48.720 ...that lives in America? 00:02:49.200 --> 00:02:49.980 What do you do? 00:02:50.720 --> 00:02:51.480 Not much. 00:02:51.600 --> 00:02:54.760 I just connect with my Canadian friends and text them and say, happy Thanksgiving. 00:02:54.760 --> 00:02:57.320 And then I wait for the American one to gorge myself. 00:02:57.660 --> 00:02:58.760 So that's about it. 00:02:59.240 --> 00:03:04.320 I'm, you know, my mother's not mailing me a frozen turkey. 00:03:04.940 --> 00:03:07.120 It's just, it's, you know, now that... 00:03:07.120 --> 00:03:08.300 Yeah, it's fairly lonely, Jeff. 00:03:08.400 --> 00:03:09.060 It's fairly lonely. 00:03:09.560 --> 00:03:14.860 So you're totally a hypocrite because you think you're 12% better than an American, but you 00:03:14.860 --> 00:03:17.760 don't acknowledge the actual Canadian holiday. 00:03:17.900 --> 00:03:19.360 Instead, you wait for the American to come around. 00:03:19.960 --> 00:03:20.500 It's true. 00:03:21.040 --> 00:03:21.320 Okay. 00:03:21.400 --> 00:03:22.860 I just wanted to get that one out of the way. 00:03:23.200 --> 00:03:24.740 Welcome to the Church Digital Podcast. 00:03:24.940 --> 00:03:26.480 This is what this episode is going to be like. 00:03:26.640 --> 00:03:32.240 Ben Stapley is a very good friend of mine and who has been inspirational in my life, honestly, 00:03:32.240 --> 00:03:33.220 before I met the guy. 00:03:33.300 --> 00:03:37.680 And when I met the guy, he was true to his form and excited to have him on the podcast. 00:03:37.860 --> 00:03:40.680 Before we get to that, though, I launched a book. 00:03:41.080 --> 00:03:46.220 We published the book, The Church, excuse me, VR and the Metaverse Church, how God is moving 00:03:46.220 --> 00:03:49.260 in this virtual yet quite real reality. 00:03:49.620 --> 00:03:51.660 And so that is out there right now. 00:03:51.740 --> 00:03:53.260 It is a free download. 00:03:53.820 --> 00:03:58.900 Thank you very much, Leadership Network, for providing this resource free to churches and 00:03:58.900 --> 00:03:59.800 to people like you. 00:03:59.860 --> 00:04:02.740 You can buy it on Amazon as a paperback book. 00:04:02.800 --> 00:04:07.280 You can buy the Kindle if you want that, but the PDF is available for you right now. 00:04:07.280 --> 00:04:12.800 Go swing over to thechurch.digital slash VR book. 00:04:12.920 --> 00:04:13.980 That'll get you to the right page. 00:04:14.200 --> 00:04:18.220 Thechurch.digital slash VR book. 00:04:18.320 --> 00:04:23.040 We've had hundreds of downloads already on the book and very excited about the trajection 00:04:23.040 --> 00:04:23.260 of it. 00:04:23.280 --> 00:04:27.860 Some great feedback, telling stories of people that are launching and running churches and 00:04:27.860 --> 00:04:31.000 doing ministry and evangelism in virtual reality. 00:04:31.200 --> 00:04:33.960 And so it's some really interesting perspectives in there. 00:04:34.420 --> 00:04:35.780 So go check that out. 00:04:36.220 --> 00:04:37.960 Now, commercial over. 00:04:38.160 --> 00:04:42.480 Let's go and pivot back to the hypocrite Canadian in the room, Ben Stapley. 00:04:42.660 --> 00:04:44.680 It's great to have you on the show here, my friend. 00:04:45.600 --> 00:04:53.460 Ben is currently executive pastor for a church up in New Jersey, the Life Christian Church. 00:04:53.460 --> 00:04:58.680 He was down here for a season in Miami, Florida, where I am, working at the church that I formerly 00:04:58.680 --> 00:04:59.140 worked at. 00:04:59.180 --> 00:05:00.600 So we developed a relationship through that. 00:05:01.060 --> 00:05:07.160 And now he's back up closer to his motherland, closer to some family up there in Canada as well. 00:05:07.280 --> 00:05:10.020 So Ben, thanks for jumping on the show here with us. 00:05:10.320 --> 00:05:11.140 It's great to be here. 00:05:11.180 --> 00:05:14.400 Most people, Jeff, when they leave New Jersey, they don't come back. 00:05:14.460 --> 00:05:17.280 I'm one of the few that's come back to the state. 00:05:17.880 --> 00:05:19.360 And a quick plug for your book. 00:05:19.400 --> 00:05:26.200 I got a chance to skim through it, but I did dive into theological ramifications of virtual 00:05:26.200 --> 00:05:28.340 ministry, and I really enjoyed that. 00:05:28.420 --> 00:05:30.520 So that's my quick plug for the book as well. 00:05:30.860 --> 00:05:35.700 I love how you're not only practical with your approach, but theological, which generally 00:05:35.700 --> 00:05:41.300 speaking, I haven't seen as much ink spilled on that topic recently. 00:05:41.300 --> 00:05:42.080 So I love that. 00:05:42.400 --> 00:05:46.400 Yeah, there is plenty of room to explore the theology of that. 00:05:46.800 --> 00:05:51.680 And it's funny, in the book itself, I say this is not going to be the in-depth theological, 00:05:52.540 --> 00:05:56.660 like there could be books just written on that one topic, but we're going to scratch the surface 00:05:56.660 --> 00:05:58.680 of it and start some of those conversations. 00:05:58.980 --> 00:06:00.160 So thank you for that. 00:06:00.240 --> 00:06:01.720 Ben Stapley read my book. 00:06:01.980 --> 00:06:02.780 Like, that's awesome. 00:06:03.340 --> 00:06:06.560 But hey, so we're not talking VR, if you're listening. 00:06:06.740 --> 00:06:09.320 That's not where we're going with this conversation today. 00:06:09.500 --> 00:06:12.440 It's Thanksgiving week, which means Christmas is around the corner. 00:06:13.000 --> 00:06:20.180 And I'm going to put on my ministry hat when I was production director, when I was creative 00:06:20.180 --> 00:06:25.520 director, when I was communications director, when I was weekend experience director at physical 00:06:25.520 --> 00:06:26.100 churches. 00:06:26.740 --> 00:06:30.420 To be honest, if bluntly a little bit here, I hated this time of year. 00:06:31.180 --> 00:06:37.140 This time of year was always difficult for me because everybody ramps up ministry. 00:06:37.140 --> 00:06:40.000 Everybody ramps up their desires and expectations. 00:06:40.740 --> 00:06:46.780 And there was just, there was a lot of tension and frustration centered around, you know, 00:06:46.820 --> 00:06:51.940 the worship team, wanting specific things for some of these major events and holidays. 00:06:52.240 --> 00:06:53.880 Production had their desires. 00:06:54.060 --> 00:06:55.760 Communications wanted their own thing. 00:06:56.120 --> 00:06:59.240 The video department, the creative guys wanted to do something crazy. 00:06:59.660 --> 00:07:02.220 The online guys trying to figure out what to do with this. 00:07:02.500 --> 00:07:04.480 And like, everybody ramps up. 00:07:04.480 --> 00:07:05.600 Do I get any resources? 00:07:05.600 --> 00:07:06.480 Yeah, exactly. 00:07:06.820 --> 00:07:10.020 The online guys like, you want me to do what with the ball of twine? 00:07:10.400 --> 00:07:13.260 Like, and so I have been, I appreciate the joke. 00:07:13.400 --> 00:07:14.360 That was well-timed. 00:07:15.520 --> 00:07:18.880 And so like, there's just all this tension centered around this. 00:07:19.000 --> 00:07:20.120 And what do we do with this? 00:07:20.160 --> 00:07:20.940 How do we operate? 00:07:21.140 --> 00:07:23.120 How do we work together as a team? 00:07:23.200 --> 00:07:23.960 How do we align? 00:07:24.060 --> 00:07:24.900 What does that even mean? 00:07:24.920 --> 00:07:29.200 If you're the leader in this situation, how do you lead in this? 00:07:29.660 --> 00:07:33.120 And, you know, I'm always the guy that's like, let me bring in people smarter than me. 00:07:33.440 --> 00:07:35.560 People that have been more successful in this space than me. 00:07:35.580 --> 00:07:37.040 And let's, let's learn from them. 00:07:37.600 --> 00:07:39.600 Thus, enter Ben Stapley into the conversation. 00:07:39.600 --> 00:07:42.800 Because I've seen Ben navigate this time and time again. 00:07:42.880 --> 00:07:45.720 So I would love to have a conversation centered around that. 00:07:45.820 --> 00:07:46.900 So Ben, thanks for jumping on. 00:07:47.260 --> 00:07:48.340 It's great to be here, Jeff. 00:07:48.860 --> 00:07:50.500 Just to give some context for myself. 00:07:50.860 --> 00:07:54.720 I've been doing Christmases now for 17 years in ministry. 00:07:54.720 --> 00:07:56.180 It was in television prior to that. 00:07:56.260 --> 00:08:00.580 So I have some, I have some years of experience of what has worked and what hasn't. 00:08:00.940 --> 00:08:03.180 Paid the dumb tax a number of times. 00:08:03.180 --> 00:08:07.500 And hopefully this conversation helps your listeners avoid some of the hurdles that I 00:08:07.500 --> 00:08:14.360 had to jump through or break through in finding a good work relationship with the teams that 00:08:14.360 --> 00:08:19.000 are on peer levels and then also up and down the organization to make sure that they're 00:08:19.000 --> 00:08:23.660 not just executing the experience, but they're enjoying the experience as well. 00:08:23.660 --> 00:08:27.540 So I'm, I'm, I'm excited for this conversation because I'm going to pass on what I've learned 00:08:27.540 --> 00:08:33.420 to help other people not have to experience the pain, some of the pain that I have in learning 00:08:33.420 --> 00:08:34.500 some of this stuff over the years. 00:08:35.080 --> 00:08:40.500 So right off the bat, you know, some of the tension that I felt in many ways is a lot, and this 00:08:40.500 --> 00:08:45.740 is not a healthy, but this is what, this is what I've observed in my own ministry, as well 00:08:45.740 --> 00:08:48.400 as what I've seen from others in the space. 00:08:48.540 --> 00:08:52.520 Oftentimes, a lot of these ministries operate in silos. 00:08:52.520 --> 00:08:56.420 They're operating in separation from each other, doing whatever they want. 00:08:56.420 --> 00:09:03.960 And in seasons like Christmas and Easter, really these siloed ministries are forced to work 00:09:03.960 --> 00:09:04.600 together. 00:09:04.600 --> 00:09:09.760 Almost they're shoved into the same room where they have to operate in the same space, whereas 00:09:09.760 --> 00:09:13.020 they're usually able to call their own shots outside of that. 00:09:13.100 --> 00:09:14.460 What, what does that look like? 00:09:14.460 --> 00:09:15.300 How have you seen that? 00:09:15.340 --> 00:09:18.580 Or how would you maybe address some of that siloed approach here? 00:09:18.900 --> 00:09:23.280 Oftentimes we work independently in terms of some of the teams that you've listed, be it 00:09:23.280 --> 00:09:27.000 your communications, your creative, your worship, your production, your guest services, and we're 00:09:27.000 --> 00:09:28.140 off doing our own things. 00:09:28.640 --> 00:09:30.640 And then we have to throw ourselves together quickly. 00:09:31.440 --> 00:09:33.280 I always like to start with the why behind it. 00:09:33.300 --> 00:09:34.940 And so like, why are we trying to do this? 00:09:35.000 --> 00:09:36.560 Why are we trying to be unified? 00:09:36.760 --> 00:09:42.300 And so I, as a believer, I look towards the model of our Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, 00:09:42.300 --> 00:09:45.780 who's a triune God, different but equal and unified. 00:09:46.500 --> 00:09:48.280 And that's, it was Jesus's prayer, right? 00:09:48.340 --> 00:09:52.420 His high priestly prayer with his disciples in John 17. 00:09:52.580 --> 00:09:57.940 You know, I want you to be unified and to have unity just as me and the Father are united. 00:09:58.360 --> 00:10:00.920 And so when I, when I start with it, I always start with the why. 00:10:01.060 --> 00:10:02.140 Why are we trying to be united? 00:10:02.180 --> 00:10:06.260 Because we're, when we do that, we reflect the nature of God first and foremost. 00:10:06.260 --> 00:10:07.620 So let's, let's be united. 00:10:08.320 --> 00:10:10.600 And then second of all, in terms of the, how do we do it? 00:10:11.680 --> 00:10:16.220 I've, I've been in work situation, you know, call out, you know, when I was at Christ Fellowship, 00:10:16.520 --> 00:10:19.340 it was, we were, we were physically divided. 00:10:19.800 --> 00:10:22.360 Our worship department was in one building. 00:10:22.760 --> 00:10:26.600 Our creative department was in another floor of another building. 00:10:26.660 --> 00:10:28.420 Our production was all over the place. 00:10:28.540 --> 00:10:31.200 We, they weren't even naturally rubbing shoulders with each other. 00:10:31.200 --> 00:10:37.100 So in terms of, if you're looking to get practical right away, the how is get your people in closer 00:10:37.100 --> 00:10:41.900 proximity with each other, not just when you're planning your big holidays, but throughout the 00:10:41.900 --> 00:10:42.160 year. 00:10:42.600 --> 00:10:48.040 That proximity will build an affinity between those team members and those departments. 00:10:48.040 --> 00:10:53.420 So if you're, if you're already siloed physically, you're going to be siloed when it comes philosophically, 00:10:53.500 --> 00:10:54.620 when it comes relationally. 00:10:54.780 --> 00:11:00.500 So, so get people physically together and that will help right away dissolve some of these 00:11:00.500 --> 00:11:03.560 tensions that you're bringing up right now because you just, you're not naturally rubbing shoulders 00:11:03.560 --> 00:11:04.100 with each other. 00:11:04.180 --> 00:11:13.680 It's hard to, it's hard to despise or think negatively of somebody that you interact with on a regular 00:11:13.680 --> 00:11:13.980 basis. 00:11:13.980 --> 00:11:15.840 So first of all, get your people closer to each other. 00:11:15.920 --> 00:11:20.660 That will help resolve a lot of these tensions if they are siloed physically on your campuses. 00:11:21.260 --> 00:11:21.400 Yeah. 00:11:21.460 --> 00:11:25.620 I mean, giving the benefit of the doubt, what you're describing here, when you have relational 00:11:25.620 --> 00:11:28.400 equity, when you're, when you're friends, when you have a relationship with a person, you're, 00:11:28.440 --> 00:11:30.600 you're more likely to see that. 00:11:30.600 --> 00:11:35.380 And oftentimes in church space, I mean, let's, let's be honest, especially in these creative 00:11:35.380 --> 00:11:40.680 departments in communication, it's 24 seven, three 65, you're, you're stretching every resource 00:11:40.680 --> 00:11:44.800 you have that, that you can get there, but it's hard to kind of take time to do that. 00:11:45.200 --> 00:11:50.480 Now, one of the things that I've heard, and this is this, I have felt this tension where 00:11:50.480 --> 00:11:54.740 I was the guy, when I was the communications director, weekend experience director, setting 00:11:54.740 --> 00:11:59.640 this stuff up, like I would want to talk Christmas, like in September. 00:12:00.140 --> 00:12:02.580 I would want to get everything done and lined up. 00:12:02.640 --> 00:12:04.580 So there's time to develop on that. 00:12:05.100 --> 00:12:10.980 Uh, and, and also, I know what it is to like, look to the senior leader, to the lead communicator 00:12:10.980 --> 00:12:13.440 and say, Hey, what are you preaching Christmas? 00:12:13.440 --> 00:12:16.480 And, you know, sometime around the beginning of school, like Labor Day. 00:12:16.700 --> 00:12:19.280 And, uh, that often doesn't go over well. 00:12:19.300 --> 00:12:21.760 That conversation's not, not received oftentimes. 00:12:21.760 --> 00:12:27.940 Um, how do you deal with the tension of, of trying to, when do you suggest that we do talk 00:12:27.940 --> 00:12:28.900 about Christmas? 00:12:28.900 --> 00:12:33.520 Like, should we already have the plan going into Thanksgiving and how do we get everybody 00:12:33.520 --> 00:12:35.340 on board with maybe that mindset? 00:12:35.900 --> 00:12:36.060 Yeah. 00:12:36.100 --> 00:12:38.000 You've brought up two points that are helpful. 00:12:38.100 --> 00:12:39.880 The first, the first is time. 00:12:39.940 --> 00:12:44.500 And then the second is, um, where is the concept originating from? 00:12:44.500 --> 00:12:50.200 So when it comes to time, a lot of these tensions that you're going to have will be mitigated 00:12:50.200 --> 00:12:54.800 with the gift of time, the more time you have, the easier it is to resolve these issues. 00:12:54.800 --> 00:13:02.160 If you have a truncated, uh, workflow, we're going to all lean to our worst tendencies and 00:13:02.160 --> 00:13:05.640 the, the, the bad tendencies of ourself are going to come out. 00:13:05.740 --> 00:13:08.360 So give yourself the gift of time to get really practical. 00:13:08.720 --> 00:13:14.000 Um, I like to start planning, um, Christmas no later than September because it gets, things 00:13:14.000 --> 00:13:15.320 get rolling really quickly. 00:13:15.320 --> 00:13:19.260 Uh, but the, the tension, you know, and I think most churches do this fairly well. 00:13:19.480 --> 00:13:20.600 I don't see this tension. 00:13:20.720 --> 00:13:23.340 The bigger tension I see is everyone forgets about Easter. 00:13:23.340 --> 00:13:27.700 So I'm already calling that out now that it's, you know, in December, you should be starting 00:13:27.700 --> 00:13:32.240 about Easter because you're going to, you know, take the break over the Christmas holiday. 00:13:32.240 --> 00:13:34.500 You're going to come back in your big January series. 00:13:34.500 --> 00:13:37.340 And then you look at the calendar and Easter is two months away. 00:13:37.520 --> 00:13:42.200 So, um, generally speaking, I like to plan, I like to start planning Christmas in September 00:13:42.200 --> 00:13:45.540 and start planning Easter in, in December. 00:13:46.060 --> 00:13:48.920 Um, because if not, you're, you're, you're behind the ball. 00:13:49.540 --> 00:13:51.060 So that's the first thing in terms of timeline. 00:13:51.260 --> 00:13:55.040 The second thing you talk about going to your lead pastor early and saying, Hey, what's you, 00:13:55.160 --> 00:13:56.060 what's your idea? 00:13:56.240 --> 00:13:57.180 Can you give it to me? 00:13:57.980 --> 00:14:02.780 Um, if they don't have something that's fine, then you need to start pitching things because 00:14:02.780 --> 00:14:08.260 you can't, you know, it's okay for them to pull out the, the baby Jesus story and their 00:14:08.260 --> 00:14:12.480 message that they, they've used probably year after year after year, they can pull that out 00:14:12.480 --> 00:14:15.240 the week before that doesn't work for everybody else. 00:14:15.700 --> 00:14:21.280 Um, and so you need to gracefully, uh, light a little fire underneath them and saying, we 00:14:21.280 --> 00:14:24.580 need a con you don't need a concept because you can do it last minute. 00:14:24.900 --> 00:14:26.780 We need a concept now. 00:14:27.400 --> 00:14:32.080 Um, and when it comes to that, I always encourage teams to say, where is, where is the concept 00:14:32.080 --> 00:14:32.540 coming from? 00:14:32.600 --> 00:14:33.580 It can come two directions. 00:14:33.740 --> 00:14:35.200 It can come top down. 00:14:35.600 --> 00:14:39.980 So the lead pastor is saying, you know, for this Christmas, um, we know for ourselves, 00:14:40.020 --> 00:14:41.340 we're doing an evergreen theme. 00:14:41.560 --> 00:14:44.960 The, you know, here in the Northeast, um, you know, it's fall season. 00:14:45.080 --> 00:14:50.060 We're losing our leaves, but evergreen trees stay green all year long. 00:14:50.060 --> 00:14:54.140 And we're using that as a metaphor for God's love that the seasons are going to change, 00:14:54.140 --> 00:14:56.820 but God's love towards us is consistent. 00:14:56.820 --> 00:14:58.000 It stays green. 00:14:58.140 --> 00:14:59.560 It stays vibrant and stays fresh. 00:14:59.720 --> 00:15:02.360 Other things are dying around, but his love does not. 00:15:02.480 --> 00:15:03.640 It's evergreen. 00:15:04.040 --> 00:15:05.720 And so we're, that's the theme that we're going with. 00:15:06.260 --> 00:15:09.620 Um, our, our, our, our lead pastor didn't have that theme. 00:15:09.780 --> 00:15:12.160 Um, and we had to pitch it to him. 00:15:12.700 --> 00:15:17.860 So either the concept goes top down, the lead pastor towards the team, or the team pitches 00:15:17.860 --> 00:15:18.560 a couple ideas. 00:15:19.240 --> 00:15:23.260 I would say two to three is if you're pitching more ideas than that, then you're kind of wasting 00:15:23.260 --> 00:15:23.760 your time. 00:15:23.960 --> 00:15:25.180 You don't really have solid ideas. 00:15:25.280 --> 00:15:26.560 You just have a couple of guesses. 00:15:27.280 --> 00:15:28.720 Pitch two or three solid ideas. 00:15:29.160 --> 00:15:35.500 And then beyond that, like in terms of a regular rhythm of work, figure out which works for 00:15:35.500 --> 00:15:36.560 you and stick to it. 00:15:36.820 --> 00:15:41.300 So, you know, I've been a part of some organizations where the lead pastor is really the creative 00:15:41.300 --> 00:15:42.040 director as well. 00:15:42.400 --> 00:15:44.600 They have tons of concepts and they want to say, okay, great. 00:15:44.840 --> 00:15:49.120 We know it's coming top down and be a part of other organizations or help other churches 00:15:49.120 --> 00:15:51.560 where the lead pastor is not creative at all. 00:15:51.560 --> 00:15:55.040 And they need the creative department to pitch ideas. 00:15:55.040 --> 00:15:58.900 So figure out which model you are and stick with it. 00:15:59.140 --> 00:16:04.020 Um, that'll make, that'll, that'll bring a lot of peace to a lot of members of the team, 00:16:04.080 --> 00:16:06.240 just understanding which model that you're working with. 00:16:06.720 --> 00:16:10.320 So if somebody hasn't like, let's, let's do worst case scenario. 00:16:10.320 --> 00:16:13.600 And if this is you right now, I'm praying for you. 00:16:14.340 --> 00:16:17.860 So it's Thanksgiving week and somebody out there hasn't put one thought into this. 00:16:18.240 --> 00:16:19.680 Man, I don't even know how to start there. 00:16:20.960 --> 00:16:22.760 Uh, well, I guess we're all praying for you. 00:16:23.140 --> 00:16:29.820 If, if, if you have not started this process, um, then I would set up a meeting with your 00:16:29.820 --> 00:16:33.500 lead pastor tomorrow and to say, Christmas is around the corner. 00:16:33.640 --> 00:16:35.880 We don't have anything up on the whiteboard yet. 00:16:36.780 --> 00:16:40.660 Um, you know, here are two or three ideas that I think will work. 00:16:40.780 --> 00:16:47.700 Will you sign off on one now or end of day or end of week so that we can start ideating? 00:16:48.260 --> 00:16:53.060 Um, so if, if, if you don't have a concept yet, um, ideate on a concept and then pitch 00:16:53.060 --> 00:16:58.180 it to your lead pastor and give them a timeline that you need to, um, uh, they need to sign 00:16:58.180 --> 00:17:02.580 off on and gracefully, you know, sometimes lead pastors don't understand all the work 00:17:02.580 --> 00:17:06.680 that's needed and the domino effects that need to fall. 00:17:06.760 --> 00:17:09.060 And the first domino that needs to fall is the concept. 00:17:09.240 --> 00:17:10.140 What are we doing? 00:17:10.220 --> 00:17:11.360 What's the, what's the big idea? 00:17:11.440 --> 00:17:15.300 We're trying to wrap this around that no other dominoes can keep falling down after that until 00:17:15.300 --> 00:17:16.840 that first one topples over. 00:17:17.220 --> 00:17:22.500 So, and I always tell them like, Hey, the, the sooner you get that concept, the better 00:17:22.500 --> 00:17:24.320 the experience is going to be. 00:17:24.440 --> 00:17:30.320 And more importantly, we're talking about like team health, um, organizational health, relational 00:17:30.320 --> 00:17:36.100 health, not just the experience is going to be better at the end of the day, but the 00:17:36.100 --> 00:17:37.440 journey is going to be better. 00:17:37.640 --> 00:17:41.500 And this is probably like, this is probably where I'd camp out with you, Jeff here is 00:17:41.500 --> 00:17:43.320 for probably the first half of my career. 00:17:43.820 --> 00:17:49.740 I, I didn't solely focus on the, the destination, but it was the big thing. 00:17:49.740 --> 00:17:52.440 How, how is the show gonna go? 00:17:52.860 --> 00:17:54.160 What is the end result? 00:17:54.540 --> 00:17:59.280 And I paid little attention to the, to the, to the, the journey. 00:17:59.380 --> 00:18:01.440 It was all destination, no journey. 00:18:01.960 --> 00:18:07.580 And because of that, I compromised what God wanted to do in our midst, leading up to the 00:18:07.580 --> 00:18:07.800 show. 00:18:08.280 --> 00:18:13.040 Uh, I, I, I treated the show as like some big crown achievement instead of realizing the 00:18:13.040 --> 00:18:17.520 way I interact with team members during the process is hallowed ground. 00:18:17.680 --> 00:18:22.460 The way that I'm able to treat them with grace and respect and dignity and receive that back 00:18:22.460 --> 00:18:30.720 from them, that, that makes God pleased as much as, wow, we, we, we hit the note on that song 00:18:30.720 --> 00:18:34.380 and that, that vocal run was well-produced or that video was dope. 00:18:34.800 --> 00:18:37.720 And I would say, you know, I'm probably at this point in my career, I didn't even say 00:18:37.720 --> 00:18:40.400 the journey is more important than the destination. 00:18:40.400 --> 00:18:42.140 And, but oftentimes we compromise it. 00:18:42.460 --> 00:18:44.180 We compromise it for the show. 00:18:44.320 --> 00:18:48.420 And so for my lead pastor, especially if, you know, lead pastors are different, are differently, 00:18:48.640 --> 00:18:53.840 but a lot of them, you know, kind of prophet, priest, king, a lot of them have that, that 00:18:53.840 --> 00:18:54.760 pastoral heart. 00:18:54.860 --> 00:18:55.940 That's why they're a lead pastor. 00:18:56.100 --> 00:18:59.680 And if you, and if you're, if you're having tension, trying to get that concept from them, 00:19:00.340 --> 00:19:07.220 let them know the sooner I get a concept with you, the more Christ, um, the more we'll 00:19:07.220 --> 00:19:11.460 be able to be Christ-like to each other during this process, because we have time to do that 00:19:11.460 --> 00:19:13.640 instead of just like, give me, give me this final product. 00:19:14.220 --> 00:19:19.920 Um, when you are able to lead up and pitch that vision to your lead pastor, this is not 00:19:19.920 --> 00:19:24.380 just for execution, but it's for the, the journey and the, how we're treating each other along 00:19:24.380 --> 00:19:24.820 the way. 00:19:25.300 --> 00:19:30.140 And hopefully that unlocks their, their heart and gets them to sign up on a concept. 00:19:30.140 --> 00:19:32.100 So I've, I've always found that to be super helpful. 00:19:32.100 --> 00:19:35.900 If you're, if you're leading up to a lead pastor, lead with that, or the lead pastor just 00:19:35.900 --> 00:19:40.440 realized you were going to put your staff in a much healthier position by giving them a 00:19:40.440 --> 00:19:41.620 concept much earlier. 00:19:42.060 --> 00:19:42.180 Yeah. 00:19:42.280 --> 00:19:48.120 I, I, I love this idea of the, of the journey, you know, in my own, in my own career, it 00:19:48.120 --> 00:19:52.180 was, uh, you know, with the challenge of people process products, you know, and I'm sure you've 00:19:52.180 --> 00:19:55.820 wrestled with that where, you know, in, in my life, there were seasons where I valued 00:19:55.820 --> 00:19:58.100 the product far more than the people in the process. 00:19:58.640 --> 00:20:02.860 Uh, and then I would value the process and then process and product, but I was still 00:20:02.860 --> 00:20:06.440 beating up the people and, and juggling that tension between the three. 00:20:06.440 --> 00:20:12.040 But definitely, um, you know, and I appreciate, honestly, just the, the honesty of, Hey, you 00:20:12.040 --> 00:20:12.260 know what? 00:20:12.280 --> 00:20:15.960 There are seasons where it's been more about the destination and we really missed what God 00:20:15.960 --> 00:20:18.240 was, was offering through that. 00:20:18.460 --> 00:20:22.580 So I'm going to ask a, um, a controversial, maybe controversial is not the right word, but 00:20:22.580 --> 00:20:24.420 you can take this many, many different ways. 00:20:24.420 --> 00:20:28.220 This, uh, this question, one of the things that I've always valued about you've been 00:20:28.220 --> 00:20:33.040 is, you know, and you're the guy who's like the, from, from the streets to the stage, to 00:20:33.040 --> 00:20:36.840 the screen, like you're always reinforcing digital. 00:20:37.000 --> 00:20:40.320 You're, you're a, you were, you were an online pastor at Liquid, right? 00:20:40.360 --> 00:20:42.340 At some point, like you were, that was that. 00:20:42.480 --> 00:20:45.900 So as a digital pastor has been part of your, your career path. 00:20:45.900 --> 00:20:51.080 And so you've always leaned, uh, digital, even as much as involved as you are in physical 00:20:51.080 --> 00:20:51.860 church ministry. 00:20:52.500 --> 00:20:56.000 When you're looking at Christmas, are we broadcasting live? 00:20:56.220 --> 00:20:57.840 Are we doing something different? 00:20:57.840 --> 00:21:01.840 Like what, when you're looking and reading the average church in America, what are you 00:21:01.840 --> 00:21:03.100 suggesting we do? 00:21:03.140 --> 00:21:05.180 Where does digital fit into Christmas 2022? 00:21:05.800 --> 00:21:11.700 Well, I'd say it fits in high, high, high, um, Christmas and new year's. 00:21:11.700 --> 00:21:16.480 If you haven't planned this out, or if you haven't looked at the calendar folks, let me, let 00:21:16.480 --> 00:21:20.500 me give you a quick, you know, we're recording here, um, in November, but it's, it's currently 00:21:20.500 --> 00:21:22.280 37 days left till Christmas. 00:21:22.280 --> 00:21:26.540 But again, if you haven't looked at the calendar, Christmas, the 25th falls on a Sunday. 00:21:26.660 --> 00:21:30.840 And then beyond that, uh, new year's falls on a Sunday as well. 00:21:30.840 --> 00:21:32.760 So you probably, if you haven't figured out. 00:21:32.760 --> 00:21:33.920 I just want to call out. 00:21:34.000 --> 00:21:39.760 I think it's incredible that you knew to the day, how many days were left 37 days like 00:21:39.760 --> 00:21:44.620 that do you, you, you, you have like that written down on it, on your phone where it's an internal 00:21:44.620 --> 00:21:45.080 clock. 00:21:45.220 --> 00:21:46.420 I can't, I can't turn it off. 00:21:46.420 --> 00:21:47.700 No, I can't turn it off. 00:21:47.860 --> 00:21:51.380 The worst thing is I'll, I'll text my team that, you know, and I could just like, they're 00:21:51.380 --> 00:21:52.480 like, stop it. 00:21:52.540 --> 00:21:57.040 This is not, this is not giving me the peace that you're proclaiming you want during the 00:21:57.040 --> 00:21:57.460 season. 00:21:57.600 --> 00:21:59.140 Jesus is the Prince of peace. 00:21:59.240 --> 00:22:01.900 You texting me, you know, how many minutes we have left is that. 00:22:02.140 --> 00:22:09.080 So, um, because both of those services fall on holidays, you need to be planning what you're 00:22:09.080 --> 00:22:10.160 doing now. 00:22:10.240 --> 00:22:12.400 Hopefully, if you haven't done it yet, you need to definitely be planning it now. 00:22:12.520 --> 00:22:18.260 And I would encourage you to lean towards exclusively online services during those dates. 00:22:18.260 --> 00:22:22.580 Let's be honest, Christmas morning on the 25th, I am not going to church. 00:22:22.960 --> 00:22:28.080 I, my kids want to open presents on my bed, uh, with us and, you know, gather around the 00:22:28.080 --> 00:22:29.940 tree and pull out the stockings. 00:22:30.060 --> 00:22:31.500 That's what, that's what they want to do. 00:22:31.700 --> 00:22:37.760 And I'm speaking as a, as a family man, but other people, um, you know, singles, uh, couples, 00:22:37.880 --> 00:22:41.400 wherever you are in your stage of empty nesters, wherever you are in your stage of life, 00:22:41.460 --> 00:22:46.640 you're probably already have your Christmas traditions locked in for the 25th. 00:22:46.980 --> 00:22:49.680 And part of those are not going to a church service. 00:22:49.900 --> 00:22:51.420 So don't compete against that. 00:22:51.800 --> 00:22:56.540 Don't compete against what people already have ingrained in their traditions, um, but provide 00:22:56.540 --> 00:22:58.620 something that is, is helpful for them. 00:22:58.740 --> 00:23:01.480 So for us, it's creating a truncated experience. 00:23:01.560 --> 00:23:07.760 It's for Christmas, a 20 minute experience that we feel is going to hit most families by 00:23:07.760 --> 00:23:10.420 and large, a little something for the kids, a little something for the adults. 00:23:10.420 --> 00:23:12.560 Um, but you know, it's a busy morning. 00:23:12.840 --> 00:23:14.300 You're going to do your own thing as a family. 00:23:14.420 --> 00:23:18.440 You may go to extended family that night, but Hey, we just want you to take 20 minutes. 00:23:19.040 --> 00:23:20.900 Uh, and this, you know, this isn't live. 00:23:21.000 --> 00:23:25.280 It's on demand because again, some people, we're not saying everyone gather at 10 o'clock. 00:23:25.420 --> 00:23:26.460 It's going to be hard to do that. 00:23:26.500 --> 00:23:30.560 To be honest, everyone's got a different schedule Christmas morning, but it's on demand available. 00:23:30.560 --> 00:23:35.540 First thing, uh, Christmas morning, we encourage you to take a pause and maybe even before you 00:23:35.540 --> 00:23:40.700 go to the presents and you unwrap the presents under the tree, watch this 15 to 20 minute 00:23:40.700 --> 00:23:44.480 experience that helps us remember that Jesus is the ultimate present. 00:23:44.480 --> 00:23:50.280 And, and, and in a sense, um, spiritually unwrap that and enjoy him, enjoy his birth. 00:23:50.360 --> 00:23:52.720 Enjoy the fact that he was sent to earth for you first. 00:23:53.340 --> 00:23:54.080 Remember that. 00:23:54.080 --> 00:23:57.780 And then as you enter into this, this gift unwrapping, recall that as well. 00:23:57.780 --> 00:24:02.240 So that is, if you're looking to do digital well, I'd encourage that. 00:24:02.240 --> 00:24:07.500 And then beyond that on the first, um, we're, we're encouraging, uh, we're doing that as 00:24:07.500 --> 00:24:07.600 well. 00:24:07.680 --> 00:24:08.980 We're going exclusively online. 00:24:08.980 --> 00:24:12.740 I encourage other churches to do that as well for the first, that's two Sundays back to 00:24:12.740 --> 00:24:14.140 back exclusively online. 00:24:14.340 --> 00:24:19.720 I know that might be controversial for some churches, um, but you're going to have a hard 00:24:19.720 --> 00:24:21.800 draw for people coming out on both those mornings. 00:24:22.100 --> 00:24:22.540 Yeah. 00:24:22.680 --> 00:24:27.640 We're the church that I'm at, we're doing, we're actually filming our, our, uh, 00:24:27.640 --> 00:24:29.300 New Year's day service. 00:24:29.300 --> 00:24:31.700 Uh, we're going to be filming that December 10th. 00:24:31.700 --> 00:24:34.380 And so actually the worship is December 10th. 00:24:34.380 --> 00:24:39.420 Uh, we're doing, um, and actually I've never seen this before, but evidently it's a thing. 00:24:39.420 --> 00:24:42.000 And so we're doing NPR music style. 00:24:42.000 --> 00:24:48.840 If you've ever Google NPR music, it's, it's really interesting where the NPR radio stations, 00:24:48.840 --> 00:24:53.220 they, they create these videos of like different, uh, musical groups singing. 00:24:53.220 --> 00:24:57.580 And when they do like the artists, the, uh, concerts for the radio, 00:24:57.580 --> 00:24:59.520 through NPR, like they'll, they'll film it. 00:24:59.600 --> 00:25:00.920 And so it's, it's a really unique style. 00:25:01.020 --> 00:25:03.040 And so that's what we're, what we're filming for it. 00:25:03.040 --> 00:25:04.140 And then we'll film a message. 00:25:04.140 --> 00:25:06.900 I think the week after the 17th, uh, kind of create that. 00:25:07.440 --> 00:25:11.360 So you guys are exclusive online for the 21st, 25th and the 1st. 00:25:11.360 --> 00:25:14.960 Um, we are doing a, uh, Christmas, I'm, I'm at a church plant. 00:25:15.160 --> 00:25:17.920 Uh, and so like, to be honest, there's a couple hundred people. 00:25:18.020 --> 00:25:19.400 It's very small, uh, growing. 00:25:19.540 --> 00:25:21.820 It's been around a little over a year. 00:25:21.820 --> 00:25:26.360 So we're doing a Christmas Eve thing, uh, which in Miami is questionable because, you 00:25:26.360 --> 00:25:30.640 know, the Cubans, Hispanic Christmas Eve is a big deal, but we're doing a Christmas Eve 00:25:30.640 --> 00:25:33.120 service and then nothing Christmas day. 00:25:33.120 --> 00:25:37.740 And then we're all completely online, uh, for a new year's day. 00:25:37.740 --> 00:25:40.540 And so that, that'll be the, the, uh, the big push for that. 00:25:41.360 --> 00:25:46.740 Um, yeah, so, um, we're, we're excited, uh, about digital. 00:25:46.740 --> 00:25:49.620 And, and I think the ideas of, of planning that is digital. 00:25:49.780 --> 00:25:54.840 You know, there are churches that will, um, there are churches that will do their, uh, 00:25:54.840 --> 00:25:57.120 a stream of a service online. 00:25:57.500 --> 00:26:02.700 Uh, there are churches that will, will do, uh, uh, you know, a special recording or a studio 00:26:02.700 --> 00:26:04.740 recording or something like that. 00:26:04.740 --> 00:26:09.260 You know, at this point, if you're, if you're not doing, if you haven't started talking about 00:26:09.260 --> 00:26:11.660 doing something different, I wouldn't do anything different. 00:26:11.660 --> 00:26:14.720 Like I would just stick to what your normal rhythm is. 00:26:14.720 --> 00:26:19.160 Cause I know how difficult it is to set up, uh, a studio set up, especially if you don't 00:26:19.160 --> 00:26:24.140 have the culture set up for that and you don't have the experience of that yet. 00:26:24.140 --> 00:26:28.420 And it takes a lot of time and coordination to get some of that, uh, going. 00:26:28.640 --> 00:26:33.760 We mentioned it as an aside in terms of getting resources that people are kind of looking for 00:26:33.760 --> 00:26:34.160 resources. 00:26:34.160 --> 00:26:37.480 And you mentioned like, you know, your online pastor is, you know, looking for resources. 00:26:37.480 --> 00:26:42.060 And we, we made a quick aside, a quick joke on that in terms of, you know, you know, best 00:26:42.060 --> 00:26:42.480 of luck. 00:26:43.040 --> 00:26:48.520 And it's the, in terms of collaborative work, like one of the, one of the things I've seen 00:26:48.520 --> 00:26:54.980 to be successful over the years is equally valuing the people who are performing on the stage 00:26:54.980 --> 00:26:57.280 and the people who are performing behind the screens. 00:26:57.280 --> 00:27:01.760 So when I say on the stage, um, you're, you know, your hosts, um, your worship leaders, 00:27:02.040 --> 00:27:07.240 your, um, you know, your, your drama team, and you know, on the stage behind the screen, 00:27:07.240 --> 00:27:12.600 people, you know, your, your sound engineer, your technical director, people, um, videographers, 00:27:12.880 --> 00:27:16.060 photographers, people who are, you know, kind of like we're, we're doing right now working 00:27:16.060 --> 00:27:17.000 behind screens. 00:27:17.260 --> 00:27:22.340 And the reason I say that is I've seen in my own context and other church contexts, a 00:27:22.340 --> 00:27:30.440 slight, uh, evaluation and a slight, uh, improvement for those who were on the stage. 00:27:30.520 --> 00:27:32.560 We hold them a little higher in our esteem. 00:27:33.240 --> 00:27:37.680 And because of that, you know, I've, I've, when you, when you hear about people being a 00:27:37.680 --> 00:27:40.620 diva, it's not, it's usually not your sound engineer. 00:27:40.700 --> 00:27:42.960 It's, it's probably somebody on the, on the drama team. 00:27:43.140 --> 00:27:46.700 Um, or if you treat yourself, you know, who, who gets to be in the green room, it's, you 00:27:46.700 --> 00:27:49.260 know, just the worship team in some contexts. 00:27:49.360 --> 00:27:54.160 And because of that, we give higher preference to those who perform on a stage than those who 00:27:54.160 --> 00:27:54.860 are behind the screens. 00:27:54.860 --> 00:27:58.760 And that can become really toxic if, if left unchecked. 00:27:58.760 --> 00:28:02.800 I've been in part of some cultures where I saw the worship leader during a rehearsal, 00:28:03.000 --> 00:28:07.080 uh, you know, asking, Hey, sound guy, can I get such and such more in my ears? 00:28:07.080 --> 00:28:08.840 And it is like, I had to talk to them afterwards. 00:28:08.840 --> 00:28:13.120 It's like, they, they have a name, you know, it's not sound guy. 00:28:13.280 --> 00:28:16.260 And he's like, Oh, it's hard to see who's there in the, in the booth in the back. 00:28:16.260 --> 00:28:21.520 And so, you know, it just, I said, then stop by the tech booth before introduce yourself, 00:28:21.520 --> 00:28:25.680 find out who's back there and call them by name because you are not more important than 00:28:25.680 --> 00:28:25.880 them. 00:28:25.880 --> 00:28:30.360 Just because you're on a stage and not, not behind the screen doesn't, it doesn't elevate 00:28:30.360 --> 00:28:31.920 you to some higher level. 00:28:32.400 --> 00:28:38.320 And, uh, teams feel that they sense that they see that they know when they're peer level or 00:28:38.320 --> 00:28:39.820 they know when someone's getting special treatment. 00:28:39.820 --> 00:28:44.260 So if you have special treatment, you need to cut that out right away or your teams will 00:28:44.260 --> 00:28:45.500 never get to a healthy place. 00:28:45.540 --> 00:28:48.240 And I could, I could go on on this, but I just, I've seen it again and again. 00:28:48.660 --> 00:28:52.680 And that'd be one, that'd be my one challenge when you're talking about how service planning 00:28:52.680 --> 00:28:53.480 teams work well. 00:28:53.740 --> 00:28:55.380 We're all on a peer level here. 00:28:55.840 --> 00:29:03.140 And in talking even about that peer level, like draw that same value, we're all at the 00:29:03.140 --> 00:29:03.720 same level. 00:29:04.280 --> 00:29:06.300 What does brainstorming look like? 00:29:06.380 --> 00:29:11.220 How do you start to curate and capture some of these ideas and bring others in? 00:29:11.420 --> 00:29:13.460 Talk to me a little bit about your experience with that. 00:29:13.940 --> 00:29:14.160 Yeah. 00:29:14.280 --> 00:29:17.320 I, uh, you have ideation and you have execution. 00:29:17.840 --> 00:29:22.120 Ideation is the, generally speaking, it's the fun stuff where you get to spitball, you 00:29:22.120 --> 00:29:25.100 get to, you get to dream, you get to throw stuff up on the whiteboard. 00:29:25.440 --> 00:29:29.020 And then the hard work is the actual execution, getting those ideas done. 00:29:29.560 --> 00:29:32.680 Sometimes we only invite the creative types. 00:29:32.800 --> 00:29:35.560 I'm putting air quotes around this, um, to the ideation. 00:29:35.720 --> 00:29:38.720 And so it's your, yeah, it's, it's those people. 00:29:38.820 --> 00:29:41.180 It's your, um, maybe it's your worship leader. 00:29:41.240 --> 00:29:42.320 Maybe it's your graphic designer. 00:29:42.460 --> 00:29:46.720 Maybe it's your videographer, but we don't invite the technical people towards it. 00:29:46.720 --> 00:29:52.640 We don't invite the, um, the, the, uh, tech producer or the sound engineer because they're 00:29:52.640 --> 00:29:54.800 technical people and they don't have creative ideas. 00:29:54.980 --> 00:29:57.620 Well, first of all, I found that to be a misnomer. 00:29:57.780 --> 00:30:02.400 I found some of my most creative people in the past have been in my production departments 00:30:02.400 --> 00:30:06.400 and they're, they're really, they're skilled technically, but they also are great ideators. 00:30:06.400 --> 00:30:10.700 So don't fool yourself and think that they're not going to, and even if they don't bring 00:30:10.700 --> 00:30:13.300 them into that process, because that's a fun environment to be on. 00:30:13.540 --> 00:30:18.060 And if, if you're only allowing the creative types to have the fun and it's all the technical 00:30:18.060 --> 00:30:21.220 types who are executing it, then again, you're setting up a divide. 00:30:21.640 --> 00:30:24.700 Um, and beyond like having the fun, it's the camaraderie. 00:30:24.700 --> 00:30:25.960 We were all in this together. 00:30:25.960 --> 00:30:30.460 We all, we are all part of coming up with the ideas and now we're all a part of executing 00:30:30.460 --> 00:30:30.960 the ideas. 00:30:30.960 --> 00:30:35.940 If you, if you make camps, it's going to be felt and then there's going to be divides 00:30:35.940 --> 00:30:37.540 and there's going to be tensions between the two. 00:30:37.700 --> 00:30:40.320 So invite, invite both to the brainstorming process. 00:30:40.800 --> 00:30:44.260 You know, I've heard, I've heard somebody, some, I forget who this was, but I literally 00:30:44.260 --> 00:30:48.520 just had this conversation this week where somebody was like, yeah, the first 20 minutes 00:30:48.520 --> 00:30:51.220 of every brainstorming meeting is just trash. 00:30:51.660 --> 00:30:57.440 It's just people talking and getting comfortable with each other, like throwing out the stupid 00:30:57.440 --> 00:30:58.120 ideas. 00:30:58.320 --> 00:31:00.800 And, and, and, uh, and I would, I was guilty of this. 00:31:00.800 --> 00:31:02.720 Like I was the no guy in some of those meetings. 00:31:02.840 --> 00:31:03.960 It's like, no, that's stupid. 00:31:04.060 --> 00:31:04.840 No, we can't do that. 00:31:04.900 --> 00:31:05.160 No. 00:31:05.660 --> 00:31:11.820 And to call myself out, having that approach in some of those brainstormings destroys the 00:31:11.820 --> 00:31:12.160 meeting. 00:31:12.280 --> 00:31:13.260 It shuts it down. 00:31:13.500 --> 00:31:20.120 And so it's, it's 20 minutes of thinking crazy of just talking and almost building a relational 00:31:20.120 --> 00:31:25.840 trust with this to really get to the point where the ideas start to get good and you, 00:31:25.840 --> 00:31:27.320 you can build something off that. 00:31:27.440 --> 00:31:29.320 And so it was, it was funny in my life. 00:31:29.360 --> 00:31:30.200 It was Jared Lovins. 00:31:30.820 --> 00:31:33.400 Jared Lovins was the, was the communications director. 00:31:33.600 --> 00:31:38.040 And if you know, JR, that just really dated me because that was a long time ago, but he 00:31:38.040 --> 00:31:40.880 looked at me and he's like, Reed, you're, you're actually, he said a word I'm not allowed 00:31:40.880 --> 00:31:44.320 to say on the radio or on the podcast here, but he said, he said, Reed, you got it. 00:31:44.340 --> 00:31:44.880 You got to stop. 00:31:44.980 --> 00:31:45.360 You got it. 00:31:45.380 --> 00:31:47.780 You are, you're, you're, you're killing these meetings. 00:31:47.840 --> 00:31:49.680 You don't even know you're doing it, but you're doing it. 00:31:50.120 --> 00:31:54.560 And so, you know, for maybe some of you, you, you've been excluding some people from 00:31:54.560 --> 00:31:58.700 these meetings because they're, you know, the word that I'm not allowed to say on the 00:31:58.700 --> 00:31:59.220 podcast. 00:31:59.360 --> 00:32:00.160 Well, guess what? 00:32:00.780 --> 00:32:05.060 Maybe it's time for you to have a gentle conversation with them, show some grace and point out some 00:32:05.060 --> 00:32:09.740 of these errors and flaws so that they can be included into it. 00:32:10.100 --> 00:32:10.220 Yeah. 00:32:10.320 --> 00:32:16.600 The, the same premise that applies the same two golden rules that apply for improv apply 00:32:16.600 --> 00:32:18.160 to ideation. 00:32:18.680 --> 00:32:19.080 Yes. 00:32:19.780 --> 00:32:22.620 And so someone says an idea and you're leading that meeting. 00:32:22.980 --> 00:32:23.380 Yes. 00:32:24.020 --> 00:32:27.240 Maybe it seems a little crazy, but like, thank you for sharing that. 00:32:27.320 --> 00:32:27.540 Yes. 00:32:27.640 --> 00:32:29.560 And, and can someone build on that? 00:32:29.740 --> 00:32:32.000 Is there, you know, and what's, what's the end? 00:32:32.100 --> 00:32:33.060 They, they mentioned idea. 00:32:33.140 --> 00:32:34.040 How do we build upon that? 00:32:34.040 --> 00:32:39.480 So we could, we could rabbit trail here on how to, how to foster a great creative meeting 00:32:39.480 --> 00:32:41.000 and how to ideate well with the team. 00:32:41.100 --> 00:32:46.180 But those two principles right there, yes, and will help not shut down the conversation, 00:32:46.200 --> 00:32:47.760 but foster it and let it flourish. 00:32:47.860 --> 00:32:51.400 And oftentimes you have to like, you have to entertain a lot of those bad ideas before you get to 00:32:51.400 --> 00:32:51.880 the good one. 00:32:52.120 --> 00:32:55.140 But if you say that's stupid, that's stupid, then the person who's got the good idea is 00:32:55.140 --> 00:32:55.960 never going to speak up. 00:32:56.040 --> 00:32:56.840 So yes, yes. 00:32:57.000 --> 00:32:57.440 Great idea. 00:32:57.540 --> 00:32:58.020 Great idea. 00:32:58.300 --> 00:33:02.460 Even though it might stink, you know, and what else do you have to add that fosters and 00:33:02.460 --> 00:33:03.320 unlocks the good ideas? 00:33:03.860 --> 00:33:04.120 Okay. 00:33:04.240 --> 00:33:06.000 So we've got a plan. 00:33:06.740 --> 00:33:07.920 We've worked together. 00:33:08.560 --> 00:33:09.420 Everybody's united. 00:33:09.420 --> 00:33:12.640 We're all hanging around, holding hands, singing Kumbaya. 00:33:13.020 --> 00:33:13.340 Kumbaya. 00:33:13.660 --> 00:33:15.720 It's, it's a beautiful time. 00:33:16.320 --> 00:33:22.480 Uh, and then December 22nd, uh, the Holy Spirit has spoken to the lead communicator and 00:33:22.480 --> 00:33:23.540 there's a whole new plan. 00:33:25.160 --> 00:33:32.120 What's the tension of following the lead, uh, fighting for what's established. 00:33:32.120 --> 00:33:36.720 How do you navigate, uh, those types of, we've all had those types of seasons. 00:33:36.720 --> 00:33:38.000 Let's not sugarcoat this. 00:33:38.240 --> 00:33:39.460 We've all been there. 00:33:39.880 --> 00:33:41.300 How do you navigate that? 00:33:42.020 --> 00:33:43.300 I stumped them people. 00:33:43.960 --> 00:33:47.160 No, it's just, um, it's, it's, it's different based upon your leader. 00:33:47.540 --> 00:33:53.460 And hope, I guess I would say, hopefully before this point has come up, you've gone through 00:33:53.460 --> 00:33:57.400 the trenches with them a couple of times and you have some relational equity that you've 00:33:57.400 --> 00:34:03.300 built up, but, uh, and if not, then maybe it's, it's after the, if you, if you haven't, 00:34:03.380 --> 00:34:06.960 you know, at the end of the day, you almost have to fight a battle a little bit before, 00:34:06.960 --> 00:34:10.660 like there's that mutual respect and, and come out on the other side of it. 00:34:10.660 --> 00:34:17.600 But it might be a situation where you may need to execute it, but on the back end, um, 00:34:17.600 --> 00:34:22.700 you have to gracefully say that, um, that can't happen again. 00:34:22.700 --> 00:34:28.300 Because if we do, if it does, we're going to lose our staff and like we, we, we, we can 00:34:28.300 --> 00:34:29.660 do what you want us to do. 00:34:29.900 --> 00:34:34.460 Um, but I need to articulate the consequences if we do that. 00:34:34.460 --> 00:34:37.760 And so I think that's probably the most helpful thing that I've come into those conversations. 00:34:38.340 --> 00:34:42.640 Yes, we can, we can throw it the whole thing right now and do that different game plan. 00:34:43.240 --> 00:34:47.940 I'm telling you right now, we're going to have, you know, a couple of our staff members, 00:34:48.000 --> 00:34:51.700 a couple of our volunteers, a couple of our performers, um, say, that's it. 00:34:52.240 --> 00:34:54.220 I'm not a part of the crazy train anymore. 00:34:54.260 --> 00:34:59.180 And I want off choo choo, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, um, I'm getting off this train. 00:34:59.520 --> 00:35:06.000 And so I try to gracefully, um, present those outcomes. 00:35:06.300 --> 00:35:10.120 And at the end of the day, where it's in it, when you're able to do that and say, really 00:35:10.120 --> 00:35:17.660 is, is your idea so great and so blessed and so God inspired that it's worth losing 00:35:17.660 --> 00:35:21.660 these staff members or these performers or these people who invested weeks and months 00:35:21.660 --> 00:35:22.060 and efforts. 00:35:22.600 --> 00:35:24.900 And if so, then we'll move forward with it. 00:35:25.400 --> 00:35:30.280 But if not, just realize that, uh, and maybe we should stick with what's going on and, um, 00:35:30.460 --> 00:35:34.720 you know, something's happened here where inspiration is coming to you last minute. 00:35:34.960 --> 00:35:40.140 What can I do differently next time so that I'm able to check in with you? 00:35:40.220 --> 00:35:44.740 We're able to set aside time praying so that you're able to receive inspiration sooner. 00:35:44.940 --> 00:35:47.280 And we don't get to this position again down the road. 00:35:47.520 --> 00:35:53.340 So lay out the consequences or maybe, um, repercussions or domino effects consequences 00:35:53.340 --> 00:35:54.820 might sound a little negative. 00:35:55.360 --> 00:35:59.860 Um, and, um, and then after that, also, how do we change our workflow? 00:36:00.040 --> 00:36:01.480 So this doesn't happen again. 00:36:01.480 --> 00:36:05.220 And we're not in this difficult moment where the lead pastor has to make a decision. 00:36:05.380 --> 00:36:06.760 Do I move forward with my idea? 00:36:07.340 --> 00:36:09.320 Um, or do I stick to what's already happening? 00:36:09.540 --> 00:36:14.460 I don't, you know, as someone who's reporting to you, I don't want to put you in that position 00:36:14.460 --> 00:36:14.840 again. 00:36:15.200 --> 00:36:17.800 So how can I, how can we change that down the road? 00:36:18.220 --> 00:36:19.360 That's, that's so good. 00:36:19.640 --> 00:36:25.520 Uh, being open and, and, and honest, understanding the consequences, I think is, is a great way 00:36:25.520 --> 00:36:26.920 to, to look at that. 00:36:26.920 --> 00:36:33.200 And maybe it is worth, um, playing the card, solving the, doing what, what the, the lead 00:36:33.200 --> 00:36:38.360 communicator wishes, but there's, there has to be a, you know, use the phrase, uh, been 00:36:38.360 --> 00:36:39.340 relational equity. 00:36:39.540 --> 00:36:43.660 There has to be a relationship, uh, between whoever's leading the group. 00:36:44.000 --> 00:36:46.720 Hopefully someone's leading out in that. 00:36:46.760 --> 00:36:51.120 And it's not all five of those departments answering to a lead communicator or an executive. 00:36:51.280 --> 00:36:57.120 Hopefully there's a clear leader in that, uh, and have that person that's capable of, of, 00:36:57.160 --> 00:37:02.420 of explaining and building that relationship with the executive team, the, the lead communicator, 00:37:02.500 --> 00:37:04.380 whatever the, the org chart. 00:37:04.380 --> 00:37:09.020 And, and, and, you know, it's, we're talking all like one way, like up in this relationship. 00:37:09.020 --> 00:37:10.020 There's also down. 00:37:10.020 --> 00:37:17.620 And I'm a, I'm a firm believer that if God was able to, um, develop his plan of his salvation 00:37:17.620 --> 00:37:23.400 in eternity past, and he knew before the foundations of the world, what he was going to do with you 00:37:23.400 --> 00:37:24.260 and I in our lives. 00:37:24.420 --> 00:37:29.880 If God is that, that much of a planner, then his spirit can talk to us in advance and it 00:37:29.880 --> 00:37:30.860 doesn't have to be last minute. 00:37:30.960 --> 00:37:35.880 So I'm a firm believer in that, but I'm, I am also, even in the midst of that, I am also 00:37:35.880 --> 00:37:42.280 realizing that the spirit does, um, prompt us, provide us, give us, even with our best planning 00:37:42.280 --> 00:37:44.920 still may speak to us last minute. 00:37:45.180 --> 00:37:48.080 So how do we hold both of those in tension? 00:37:48.260 --> 00:37:52.720 And so with, with the teams that I oversee is we're going to plan the lead pastors involved, 00:37:52.720 --> 00:37:55.600 but you know what, there's going to be a couple of times a year and it's different in different 00:37:55.600 --> 00:37:56.040 contexts. 00:37:56.180 --> 00:37:58.960 Some people are, it's, you know, it's all kind of last minute. 00:37:59.280 --> 00:38:00.860 Some people, none of it's last minute. 00:38:00.980 --> 00:38:03.600 I think both of those are unhealthy on the ends of the spectrum. 00:38:04.000 --> 00:38:08.600 So the teams that I tell them from the executing is we're going to plan, but there will be sometimes, 00:38:08.600 --> 00:38:13.340 even with our best planning that the spirit speaks to us last minute and we're going to 00:38:13.340 --> 00:38:17.100 follow the spirit's direction and what we've invested, we're going to, we're going to turn 00:38:17.100 --> 00:38:20.940 the corner and do something differently because at the end of the day, I don't want to feel 00:38:20.940 --> 00:38:25.820 handcuffed to my plan either and not give any room to the spirit to speak last minute. 00:38:25.820 --> 00:38:29.300 Now, from my philosophy, it's a philosophy. 00:38:29.800 --> 00:38:35.900 My philosophy is that's the, that's the exception to the rule, but that exception should be made 00:38:35.900 --> 00:38:36.260 as well. 00:38:36.900 --> 00:38:42.320 So beautiful with that two-way communication of realizing the Holy Spirit can't speak on 00:38:42.320 --> 00:38:42.720 a Tuesday. 00:38:42.860 --> 00:38:43.220 It's okay. 00:38:44.320 --> 00:38:46.700 Maybe exception to the rule, navigating that tension. 00:38:46.920 --> 00:38:51.860 All of this, all of this, and there's, this, this is not a, there's not a solution to this. 00:38:51.940 --> 00:38:53.840 It's a tension to be managed. 00:38:54.360 --> 00:38:55.560 So let me ask this. 00:38:56.300 --> 00:38:59.740 It's, it's, I don't know, January 10th. 00:38:59.740 --> 00:39:04.340 Like are we, or January 2nd, we come back from the, the online expression. 00:39:04.620 --> 00:39:06.140 We walk in that Monday. 00:39:06.940 --> 00:39:09.780 Is it full steam ahead towards Easter? 00:39:10.040 --> 00:39:14.740 Are we doing a post-mortem and discussing how Christmas went? 00:39:15.540 --> 00:39:21.580 What is, what does a review look like in a healthy, creative environment? 00:39:21.580 --> 00:39:24.040 If it's good enough to do, it's good enough to review. 00:39:24.040 --> 00:39:27.940 So yes, your big days, your big events, definitely review those. 00:39:28.360 --> 00:39:34.020 But beyond that, I would say you, you need a review system for even your weekly services. 00:39:34.740 --> 00:39:37.360 You know, just a simple, what worked, what didn't. 00:39:38.280 --> 00:39:43.080 Hopefully you spend a little more time on what worked because people want to be corrected. 00:39:43.220 --> 00:39:45.280 They want to be coached, but they also want to be celebrated. 00:39:45.640 --> 00:39:47.160 So celebrate your team members. 00:39:48.640 --> 00:39:51.820 And then for myself, this is interesting as well. 00:39:52.220 --> 00:39:58.740 So not, you know, not just do big days, your Easter's, your Christmases, but do weekly service, a review process for your weekly services. 00:39:58.860 --> 00:40:00.320 It might be just a 15-minute check-in. 00:40:01.720 --> 00:40:05.720 But what I've, I've found myself needing to give my teams a sabbatical for that. 00:40:06.160 --> 00:40:10.920 And so what I would tell them is that, you know, every about four, you know, once a month, we're not going to review the service. 00:40:11.620 --> 00:40:17.980 Because I just want to give you, I want to give you that time off, is if we do it again and again and again and never have a break from it. 00:40:18.320 --> 00:40:22.400 First of all, we don't have fresh eyes when we come, you know, because we're just doing it continually. 00:40:22.880 --> 00:40:27.160 And at some, sometimes it could feel like it's just like, oh, here's the review again. 00:40:27.160 --> 00:40:31.560 And my volunteer dropped the ball again and like, yeah, like this is a consistent problem. 00:40:31.560 --> 00:40:35.380 And it just, it feels like a drain because it gets brought up frequently. 00:40:36.460 --> 00:40:45.360 Giving ourselves a Sabbath from that, saying we're going to give ourselves grace and not review the service, I think is helpful as well for the sake of the health of your team. 00:40:46.000 --> 00:40:47.520 That is great. 00:40:47.720 --> 00:40:48.500 That's solid. 00:40:48.620 --> 00:40:49.980 I've never thought of that. 00:40:50.040 --> 00:40:50.940 Never had that perspective. 00:40:51.800 --> 00:40:52.460 Take a break. 00:40:52.760 --> 00:40:55.560 Give yourself grace every once in a while, once a month. 00:40:56.100 --> 00:41:00.800 And have the conversation with the volunteer, but there's only so often you can beat up that volunteer. 00:41:01.240 --> 00:41:03.100 So, love, love that. 00:41:03.580 --> 00:41:05.500 In the church world, we're not beating up volunteers. 00:41:05.660 --> 00:41:06.920 Don't read too much into that comment. 00:41:07.020 --> 00:41:07.580 You know what I mean. 00:41:07.700 --> 00:41:09.060 But beautiful with that. 00:41:09.720 --> 00:41:13.160 Hey, Ben, man, thanks for jumping on and doing this podcast with us. 00:41:13.360 --> 00:41:17.480 Like, man, it's always, I love hanging out with my Canadian or formerly known as Canadian. 00:41:17.640 --> 00:41:20.040 Maybe one day, once again, being a Canadian. 00:41:20.220 --> 00:41:22.280 Like, is the goal to move back to the motherland to you? 00:41:22.380 --> 00:41:23.000 Like, do you want to? 00:41:23.420 --> 00:41:24.720 I still have my citizenship. 00:41:25.040 --> 00:41:33.380 So, and I do not have the privilege of participating in the insanity that happens every four years down here in the States when it comes to voting season. 00:41:33.600 --> 00:41:36.500 And I'm glad not to participate in that madness. 00:41:36.960 --> 00:41:40.680 I was about to say you willingly live in the United States during an election year. 00:41:40.900 --> 00:41:43.420 That is, I think even Ed Stetzer. 00:41:43.460 --> 00:41:46.520 Ed Stetzer, a friend of the show, he's been living over in England. 00:41:46.700 --> 00:41:50.560 He's been six months doing some stuff over with the seminary over there. 00:41:50.640 --> 00:41:55.980 I think he tweeted the other day, he's considering staying in England because U.S. is just that crazy. 00:41:56.240 --> 00:41:57.260 So, congratulations. 00:41:57.640 --> 00:41:58.660 I'm sorry, Ben. 00:42:00.140 --> 00:42:03.900 That tells me a lot of your credibility. 00:42:04.700 --> 00:42:06.540 Living in America, even then we don't have to. 00:42:06.820 --> 00:42:10.380 We're joking, but I've enjoyed living here for the past 17 years. 00:42:10.580 --> 00:42:12.100 It's been good for me and my family. 00:42:12.340 --> 00:42:12.800 Very cool. 00:42:12.880 --> 00:42:14.620 As we're landing the plane here, any closing thoughts? 00:42:14.920 --> 00:42:24.740 The last one would just be, I think as we're, you know, we've been talking about how to unite these teams, these different teams, that your guest services, your production, your worship, your creative. 00:42:25.540 --> 00:42:37.980 The one thing that we didn't say is whoever is, two things, there should be one person overseeing all these teams so they have like a holistic view of what's going on and help provide synergy for them to work with each other. 00:42:38.300 --> 00:42:49.180 And the other thing is that person should be sitting on the executive level because it's such an important role overseeing so much of what the church's ministry goes towards, so much of the resources of the church. 00:42:49.280 --> 00:43:02.180 If they are, you know, a mid-manager, they're just not going to have a, they need that seat at the table to move things forward, to have the ear of the lead pastor, and to be able to champion those things. 00:43:02.260 --> 00:43:11.580 So that's probably the thing that I've seen churches struggle with, where, you know, those different teams are reporting to different people, and then that person's not sitting at the executive level. 00:43:11.660 --> 00:43:16.600 So that'd be my encouragement for churches to consider restructuring things if you aren't currently in that position. 00:43:16.600 --> 00:43:28.500 Yes, so much of the church's voice, because so much of the weekend experience is where a lot of that drives from, comes from these departments when they're operating together in sync. 00:43:29.180 --> 00:43:31.960 And so, you know, spot on there with that feedback. 00:43:32.360 --> 00:43:41.380 As I've spent a lot of my life as the mid-manager of these departments operating that way, and I can personally testify, it is a struggle. 00:43:42.260 --> 00:43:48.860 If only to make sure that the decision-makers actually understand what is being decided on. 00:43:49.100 --> 00:43:53.460 So, great wisdom there from Ben Stapley, Canadian American. 00:43:54.020 --> 00:44:00.800 So, hey, Ben, thanks for jumping on the show here, talking about Christmas on Thanksgiving week. 00:44:00.860 --> 00:44:09.200 Hope you all survive the upcoming month or so, and definitely looking forward to an incredible 2023. 00:44:09.540 --> 00:44:12.340 So, we're going to land the plane here with the podcast. 00:44:12.520 --> 00:44:13.480 This is for Ben. 00:44:14.020 --> 00:44:16.200 This is Jeff with the Church Digital and Digital Church Network. 00:44:16.320 --> 00:44:18.540 Thanks for jumping on the pod here. 00:44:18.600 --> 00:44:19.540 We'll see you next time on the show. 00:44:19.980 --> 00:44:20.500 Y'all have a good day.