WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:03.140 Digital has a profound place in people's discipleship. 00:00:03.180 --> 00:00:03.880 Because here's the thing, 00:00:04.240 --> 00:00:09.260 if you're consuming podcasts or news shows consistently, 00:00:09.540 --> 00:00:10.740 they are discipling you. 00:00:10.980 --> 00:00:12.440 That's not neutral content. 00:00:12.840 --> 00:00:14.480 You are taking in information 00:00:14.480 --> 00:00:16.280 and it is shaping your view of the world. 00:00:16.420 --> 00:00:17.560 It's shaping your view of yourself. 00:00:17.700 --> 00:00:19.480 It's shaping your view of God. 00:00:20.060 --> 00:00:22.000 And if you're not taking in content 00:00:22.000 --> 00:00:25.780 that's helping you actually recalibrate yourself to Jesus, 00:00:26.060 --> 00:00:28.100 you're going to be discipled in a different direction. 00:00:28.100 --> 00:00:30.480 You'll begin to be apprenticed by Tucker Carlson 00:00:30.480 --> 00:00:31.660 or the New York Times 00:00:31.660 --> 00:00:34.340 or whatever it is that you are constantly taking in. 00:00:34.580 --> 00:00:36.220 Welcome to the Church Digital Podcast. 00:00:36.920 --> 00:00:37.880 Through this podcast, 00:00:38.000 --> 00:00:41.000 we'll talk about the technological innovations within the church. 00:00:41.460 --> 00:00:43.160 But more than tech for tech itself, 00:00:43.500 --> 00:00:45.500 we'll address deeper questions. 00:00:46.340 --> 00:00:48.200 Is disciple making possible digitally? 00:00:48.960 --> 00:00:51.220 How should we approach the digital mission field? 00:00:51.880 --> 00:00:54.740 Can a biblically grounded church operate in digital space? 00:00:55.220 --> 00:00:57.780 Oh, and where does the metaverse fit into all this? 00:00:58.680 --> 00:01:00.300 Whether you're a big or small church, 00:01:00.600 --> 00:01:02.760 an established church or a startup church plant, 00:01:03.520 --> 00:01:06.140 the Church Digital's goal is to help churches like yours 00:01:06.140 --> 00:01:08.420 learn to be a multiplying church, 00:01:09.040 --> 00:01:10.420 digitally and physically. 00:01:11.300 --> 00:01:13.180 Our heart, that churches like yours 00:01:13.180 --> 00:01:15.780 will discover a newfound focus on disciple making 00:01:15.780 --> 00:01:18.080 that will revolutionize your church. 00:01:18.640 --> 00:01:21.400 And now, here's your host, Jeff Reed. 00:01:21.920 --> 00:01:24.060 All right, hey, welcome to the Church Digital Podcast. 00:01:24.060 --> 00:01:26.280 Jeff here, founder of the Church Digital, 00:01:26.360 --> 00:01:27.260 Digital Church Network, 00:01:27.480 --> 00:01:31.520 and the guy who really likes to work with digital churches. 00:01:31.700 --> 00:01:34.240 And so, looking forward to this conversation today. 00:01:34.400 --> 00:01:35.280 I met a guy on Twitter, 00:01:35.920 --> 00:01:37.880 and we didn't hate each other immediately, 00:01:38.000 --> 00:01:40.000 unlike so much else of what happens on Twitter. 00:01:40.120 --> 00:01:41.660 And so, I brought him into a conversation 00:01:41.660 --> 00:01:44.320 and really looking forward to where this is going, 00:01:44.380 --> 00:01:45.940 because it's like whenever you meet somebody on Twitter, 00:01:46.180 --> 00:01:48.340 you never really know where it's going to go. 00:01:48.480 --> 00:01:51.180 And so, this may be the greatest podcast ever, 00:01:51.340 --> 00:01:53.080 or it may be a giant train wreck. 00:01:53.160 --> 00:01:55.600 But either way, you will enjoy 00:01:55.600 --> 00:01:57.580 what's going to come from this conversation today. 00:01:57.700 --> 00:01:59.200 So, hey, I want to bring into the conversation, 00:01:59.440 --> 00:02:01.000 and I joke, this is going to be awesome. 00:02:01.400 --> 00:02:04.160 I'm bringing in Patrick Miller into the conversation. 00:02:04.380 --> 00:02:07.340 Patrick, thank you for joining us on the podcast today. 00:02:07.760 --> 00:02:09.180 Thanks so much for having me. 00:02:09.280 --> 00:02:10.320 You know it's going to be good 00:02:10.320 --> 00:02:11.480 when a podcast starts with, 00:02:11.580 --> 00:02:12.540 I met a guy on Twitter. 00:02:12.760 --> 00:02:13.380 Pretty much. 00:02:13.800 --> 00:02:14.400 And it happens. 00:02:14.480 --> 00:02:15.120 It does happen. 00:02:15.120 --> 00:02:16.840 The people I meet on Twitter, 00:02:17.300 --> 00:02:19.860 those podcasts do typically end up being good, 00:02:19.900 --> 00:02:20.700 except for the one guy, 00:02:20.800 --> 00:02:22.100 but we're not going to talk about that one now. 00:02:22.160 --> 00:02:24.140 You'll have to go back through all the episodes 00:02:24.140 --> 00:02:25.120 and find it yourself. 00:02:25.720 --> 00:02:26.460 So, hey, listen. 00:02:26.600 --> 00:02:29.060 So, Patrick wears a lot of different hats, 00:02:29.600 --> 00:02:31.680 works with the Gospel Coalition. 00:02:32.040 --> 00:02:34.640 He is digital relationships pastor, 00:02:34.800 --> 00:02:35.640 among other things, 00:02:35.660 --> 00:02:38.220 with the Crossing Church in Missouri. 00:02:38.660 --> 00:02:40.360 And dude said something on Twitter, 00:02:40.780 --> 00:02:41.980 and immediately I was like, 00:02:41.980 --> 00:02:43.420 I want to talk to that guy 00:02:43.420 --> 00:02:46.380 and want to unpack this. 00:02:46.500 --> 00:02:47.720 But before we get into the tweet, 00:02:48.200 --> 00:02:48.780 the tweet, 00:02:49.180 --> 00:02:50.120 can I say the tweet? 00:02:50.360 --> 00:02:51.740 I'm going to stick with it. 00:02:51.840 --> 00:02:53.120 Before we get into the tweet, 00:02:53.220 --> 00:02:54.780 the Twitter tweet comment, 00:02:55.320 --> 00:02:57.120 Patrick said something. 00:02:57.600 --> 00:02:59.240 He just finished writing a book, 00:02:59.800 --> 00:03:02.120 Truth Over Tribe. 00:03:02.380 --> 00:03:04.200 And so that published in October. 00:03:04.940 --> 00:03:06.320 Patrick, why don't you just briefly 00:03:06.320 --> 00:03:08.320 give us a synopsis of what the book is? 00:03:08.560 --> 00:03:10.140 Yeah, so the book really has nothing to do 00:03:10.140 --> 00:03:10.740 with technology. 00:03:10.740 --> 00:03:12.120 There is one chapter, though, 00:03:12.200 --> 00:03:13.600 in it about Facebook and, 00:03:13.680 --> 00:03:15.280 well, I should say Meta and Google 00:03:15.280 --> 00:03:16.320 and how that's changed 00:03:16.320 --> 00:03:17.260 our political discourse. 00:03:17.500 --> 00:03:18.640 But the book in general 00:03:18.640 --> 00:03:20.980 is about how political division 00:03:20.980 --> 00:03:22.840 is dividing the church 00:03:22.840 --> 00:03:24.980 and that Jesus wants us to be united 00:03:24.980 --> 00:03:26.480 on what we share in common, 00:03:26.580 --> 00:03:27.160 which is, of course, 00:03:27.200 --> 00:03:28.600 his death and his resurrection. 00:03:29.180 --> 00:03:30.340 We don't argue in the book 00:03:30.340 --> 00:03:32.260 that there isn't a place for politics. 00:03:32.360 --> 00:03:33.080 We think that's part of 00:03:33.080 --> 00:03:35.020 loving your neighbor in the world. 00:03:35.360 --> 00:03:36.420 And yet we also think 00:03:36.420 --> 00:03:37.820 that the way we talk about politics 00:03:37.820 --> 00:03:39.580 has become incredibly toxic. 00:03:39.580 --> 00:03:41.840 And so it's a really practical 00:03:41.840 --> 00:03:42.900 conversational book 00:03:42.900 --> 00:03:43.920 trying to help people 00:03:43.920 --> 00:03:46.000 to detribalize, 00:03:46.100 --> 00:03:47.220 to leave behind their 00:03:47.220 --> 00:03:49.380 political ideological identities 00:03:49.380 --> 00:03:50.600 and instead focus, 00:03:50.680 --> 00:03:51.520 as the subtitle says, 00:03:51.880 --> 00:03:53.220 not giving your allegiance 00:03:53.220 --> 00:03:54.220 to the donkey or the elephant, 00:03:54.360 --> 00:03:55.260 but instead giving that 00:03:55.260 --> 00:03:57.040 deep allegiance to the lamb. 00:03:57.340 --> 00:03:58.040 It's interesting. 00:03:58.380 --> 00:04:00.080 I'm going to be completely honest. 00:04:00.340 --> 00:04:01.920 I am scared. 00:04:02.200 --> 00:04:04.200 I am petrified 00:04:04.200 --> 00:04:06.080 about having political conversations 00:04:06.080 --> 00:04:07.140 in digital space. 00:04:07.220 --> 00:04:10.280 You just won't see me do it. 00:04:10.720 --> 00:04:13.040 And I love the idea 00:04:13.040 --> 00:04:14.240 of truth over tribe. 00:04:15.080 --> 00:04:16.440 Even in my own, 00:04:16.480 --> 00:04:17.920 this is my own personal theology, 00:04:18.040 --> 00:04:18.480 it's nothing to do 00:04:18.480 --> 00:04:19.140 with the church digital 00:04:19.140 --> 00:04:19.680 or anything else. 00:04:19.740 --> 00:04:21.960 It's just I really don't like 00:04:21.960 --> 00:04:24.380 getting into political conversations 00:04:24.380 --> 00:04:28.340 because especially in 22, 23 social media, 00:04:28.340 --> 00:04:30.300 I just have seen this explode 00:04:30.300 --> 00:04:32.020 where all of a sudden 00:04:32.020 --> 00:04:34.020 different people are arguing 00:04:34.020 --> 00:04:34.980 about different things 00:04:34.980 --> 00:04:36.280 and none of it has anything 00:04:36.280 --> 00:04:37.120 to do with the kingdom. 00:04:37.940 --> 00:04:39.200 And so for me, 00:04:39.340 --> 00:04:40.720 politics almost feels like 00:04:40.720 --> 00:04:42.580 it's the great distraction 00:04:42.580 --> 00:04:44.080 of the 2020s 00:04:44.080 --> 00:04:45.880 where it's taking us away 00:04:45.880 --> 00:04:47.240 from maybe some of the things 00:04:47.240 --> 00:04:49.160 that God would rather us be. 00:04:49.280 --> 00:04:51.080 So here, I'm asking the author, 00:04:51.240 --> 00:04:52.320 I'm inviting the author 00:04:52.320 --> 00:04:54.160 into this conversation. 00:04:54.400 --> 00:04:55.120 Like I want you to, 00:04:55.240 --> 00:04:57.080 whether it's helping me 00:04:57.080 --> 00:04:58.380 correct me in this, 00:04:58.540 --> 00:05:01.080 but the question that I struggle with 00:05:01.080 --> 00:05:03.160 is I want to be apolitical. 00:05:03.360 --> 00:05:04.700 Like I don't want anything 00:05:04.700 --> 00:05:06.360 to do with that space, 00:05:06.820 --> 00:05:08.200 especially how it drips 00:05:08.200 --> 00:05:08.960 into digital. 00:05:09.160 --> 00:05:10.600 So correct me here, 00:05:10.740 --> 00:05:11.440 guide me here, 00:05:11.560 --> 00:05:12.300 reshape me here. 00:05:12.420 --> 00:05:13.500 What do I need to do? 00:05:13.580 --> 00:05:15.280 Is it completely apolitical? 00:05:15.440 --> 00:05:16.740 Should I be more political? 00:05:17.000 --> 00:05:18.140 Like help me understand 00:05:18.140 --> 00:05:18.960 what my role is. 00:05:19.260 --> 00:05:20.040 Well, I have to say 00:05:20.040 --> 00:05:21.820 politics is subsuming everything. 00:05:22.000 --> 00:05:22.980 And so there's a lot of people 00:05:22.980 --> 00:05:24.020 out there who would suggest 00:05:24.020 --> 00:05:25.600 that if you want to be apolitical 00:05:25.600 --> 00:05:26.600 or if you want to avoid 00:05:26.600 --> 00:05:27.640 political conversations, 00:05:28.080 --> 00:05:29.180 there's something wrong with you. 00:05:29.220 --> 00:05:30.220 Or maybe it's just because 00:05:30.220 --> 00:05:30.780 you're privileged 00:05:30.780 --> 00:05:32.260 and so your life's working out well 00:05:32.260 --> 00:05:33.220 and so you don't have to worry 00:05:33.220 --> 00:05:34.280 about things like politics. 00:05:34.420 --> 00:05:35.280 And while I suppose 00:05:35.280 --> 00:05:37.320 there might be some good things 00:05:37.320 --> 00:05:38.520 to think about in that critique, 00:05:38.620 --> 00:05:40.520 I don't think that every person's call 00:05:40.520 --> 00:05:42.300 is to be highly engaged 00:05:42.300 --> 00:05:44.000 in politics and political discourse. 00:05:44.380 --> 00:05:45.000 And to be frank, 00:05:45.060 --> 00:05:46.320 I think the average American 00:05:46.320 --> 00:05:47.600 who's interested in politics 00:05:47.600 --> 00:05:49.620 isn't actually engaged in politics. 00:05:49.620 --> 00:05:50.280 They're engaged 00:05:50.280 --> 00:05:51.880 in political hobbyism. 00:05:52.220 --> 00:05:54.200 This is where you are focused 00:05:54.200 --> 00:05:55.020 on what's happening 00:05:55.020 --> 00:05:55.960 in the horse race 00:05:55.960 --> 00:05:57.160 in Washington, D.C. 00:05:57.280 --> 00:05:58.000 You're always, 00:05:58.080 --> 00:05:58.800 you know what's happening 00:05:58.800 --> 00:05:59.740 on the federal level, 00:06:00.000 --> 00:06:00.860 but you aren't engaged 00:06:00.860 --> 00:06:01.760 on a local level. 00:06:01.980 --> 00:06:03.640 You aren't caring for the widow, 00:06:03.880 --> 00:06:04.520 for the refugee, 00:06:04.820 --> 00:06:05.440 for the homeless 00:06:05.440 --> 00:06:07.060 in your own local community. 00:06:07.380 --> 00:06:08.000 And I think that's where 00:06:08.000 --> 00:06:09.780 real politics actually happens 00:06:09.780 --> 00:06:10.480 because it's a place 00:06:10.480 --> 00:06:12.040 where you have the most influence. 00:06:12.160 --> 00:06:13.240 Now, as far as talking 00:06:13.240 --> 00:06:14.580 about politics online goes, 00:06:14.660 --> 00:06:15.580 I do it all the time. 00:06:15.640 --> 00:06:16.060 So clearly, 00:06:16.220 --> 00:06:17.160 I don't have a problem 00:06:17.160 --> 00:06:17.920 with doing it, 00:06:18.080 --> 00:06:19.060 but I don't expect 00:06:19.060 --> 00:06:20.220 everybody else to do that. 00:06:20.280 --> 00:06:21.400 I think there's a place for it. 00:06:21.660 --> 00:06:22.560 And I think the manner 00:06:22.560 --> 00:06:23.600 in which we do it matters. 00:06:23.940 --> 00:06:24.500 God doesn't need 00:06:24.500 --> 00:06:25.680 a bunch of jerks for Jesus 00:06:25.680 --> 00:06:26.520 out there dunking 00:06:26.520 --> 00:06:27.400 on people on Twitter. 00:06:28.100 --> 00:06:29.680 Jerks for Jesus 00:06:29.680 --> 00:06:32.100 dunking on people on Twitter. 00:06:32.380 --> 00:06:33.060 Oh my gosh. 00:06:33.500 --> 00:06:33.900 Okay. 00:06:34.180 --> 00:06:34.420 All right. 00:06:34.480 --> 00:06:35.040 So Patrick, 00:06:35.300 --> 00:06:36.640 that's a tattoo-worthy 00:06:36.640 --> 00:06:37.420 comment right there. 00:06:37.540 --> 00:06:38.700 I have this thing 00:06:38.700 --> 00:06:41.080 that if quotes are so good 00:06:41.080 --> 00:06:42.380 is it's good enough 00:06:42.380 --> 00:06:43.340 that I would tattoo it 00:06:43.340 --> 00:06:44.120 on my body 00:06:44.120 --> 00:06:45.460 with the name 00:06:45.460 --> 00:06:46.460 of the person who said it. 00:06:46.580 --> 00:06:47.660 And you right now 00:06:47.660 --> 00:06:48.900 have made the short list. 00:06:49.440 --> 00:06:50.700 Jerks for Jesus 00:06:50.700 --> 00:06:52.140 dumping on people 00:06:52.140 --> 00:06:52.920 on Twitter. 00:06:53.040 --> 00:06:53.600 So good. 00:06:53.700 --> 00:06:54.180 Well, Patrick, 00:06:54.180 --> 00:06:55.080 thank you for that. 00:06:55.620 --> 00:06:55.940 Be sure, 00:06:56.000 --> 00:06:56.480 we'll put a link 00:06:56.480 --> 00:06:57.200 in the show notes 00:06:57.200 --> 00:06:58.160 to get the book. 00:06:58.260 --> 00:06:59.180 And so if you're interested 00:06:59.180 --> 00:07:00.760 in more information 00:07:00.760 --> 00:07:01.880 on the book, 00:07:02.020 --> 00:07:02.900 this podcast 00:07:02.900 --> 00:07:04.360 is not about the book, 00:07:04.420 --> 00:07:05.220 but if you're interested 00:07:05.220 --> 00:07:06.300 in more information 00:07:06.300 --> 00:07:07.340 on Truth Over Tribe, 00:07:07.800 --> 00:07:08.420 follow the link 00:07:08.420 --> 00:07:08.960 in the show notes 00:07:08.960 --> 00:07:09.660 and grab it. 00:07:09.720 --> 00:07:10.000 Patrick, 00:07:10.180 --> 00:07:10.860 thank you for that. 00:07:10.920 --> 00:07:12.600 I appreciate the heart 00:07:12.600 --> 00:07:13.040 and the correction 00:07:13.040 --> 00:07:13.800 diving into this. 00:07:13.920 --> 00:07:14.120 Okay, 00:07:14.340 --> 00:07:16.400 so let's get into 00:07:16.400 --> 00:07:18.060 what we want to talk 00:07:18.060 --> 00:07:18.660 about here 00:07:18.660 --> 00:07:20.120 because the conversation 00:07:20.120 --> 00:07:21.040 is centered around 00:07:21.040 --> 00:07:23.160 content and discipleship. 00:07:23.220 --> 00:07:23.720 He tweeted, 00:07:24.080 --> 00:07:24.640 we'll put a link 00:07:24.640 --> 00:07:25.200 in the show notes. 00:07:25.280 --> 00:07:25.600 By the way, 00:07:25.660 --> 00:07:26.100 this is like, 00:07:26.160 --> 00:07:26.740 I'm not going to read 00:07:26.740 --> 00:07:27.300 the whole series, 00:07:27.460 --> 00:07:28.780 but it was a series 00:07:28.780 --> 00:07:29.880 of tweets, 00:07:29.980 --> 00:07:30.720 maybe 13, 00:07:30.800 --> 00:07:31.460 14 deep. 00:07:32.740 --> 00:07:33.420 Long-winded. 00:07:33.480 --> 00:07:33.840 It was good. 00:07:34.540 --> 00:07:35.460 But basically, 00:07:35.920 --> 00:07:37.120 discipleship, 00:07:37.200 --> 00:07:37.600 quote unquote, 00:07:38.120 --> 00:07:39.020 this is one tweet, 00:07:39.420 --> 00:07:40.760 discipleship is face-to-face. 00:07:41.940 --> 00:07:44.700 Parts of discipleship. 00:07:46.440 --> 00:07:46.920 Annually, 00:07:47.040 --> 00:07:47.940 our church produces 00:07:47.940 --> 00:07:50.820 365 podcast episodes, 00:07:51.420 --> 00:07:52.600 100 blog posts, 00:07:53.160 --> 00:07:54.640 100 plus newsletters, 00:07:55.140 --> 00:07:56.720 100 plus videos. 00:07:57.140 --> 00:07:58.720 It's changing lives 00:07:58.720 --> 00:08:00.360 and energizing discipleship 00:08:00.360 --> 00:08:02.220 in profound ways. 00:08:03.000 --> 00:08:03.500 And then he goes 00:08:03.500 --> 00:08:04.140 into series 00:08:04.140 --> 00:08:05.040 to describe 00:08:05.040 --> 00:08:06.400 how he does it. 00:08:06.620 --> 00:08:06.820 So, 00:08:07.460 --> 00:08:09.520 what I found fascinating 00:08:09.520 --> 00:08:10.140 about this, 00:08:10.180 --> 00:08:10.560 and Patrick, 00:08:10.660 --> 00:08:11.660 what I want to dig into, 00:08:11.940 --> 00:08:14.200 is you're a disciple, 00:08:14.520 --> 00:08:15.300 you're a digital 00:08:15.300 --> 00:08:16.700 relationship guy. 00:08:17.400 --> 00:08:18.100 In so much 00:08:18.100 --> 00:08:18.680 of the world, 00:08:18.720 --> 00:08:20.200 when we talk about 00:08:20.200 --> 00:08:22.120 discipleship, 00:08:22.180 --> 00:08:22.900 we talk about it 00:08:22.900 --> 00:08:23.780 being relational. 00:08:24.640 --> 00:08:25.240 And actually, 00:08:25.320 --> 00:08:26.300 I was shocked 00:08:26.300 --> 00:08:27.640 when I saw the tweet 00:08:27.640 --> 00:08:28.580 talking about, 00:08:28.960 --> 00:08:29.060 hey, 00:08:29.120 --> 00:08:29.860 here's content 00:08:29.860 --> 00:08:30.400 that we use 00:08:30.400 --> 00:08:31.280 for a discipleship. 00:08:31.680 --> 00:08:32.460 And then, 00:08:32.720 --> 00:08:33.380 on top of that, 00:08:33.440 --> 00:08:33.840 the content 00:08:33.840 --> 00:08:34.540 has nothing to do 00:08:34.540 --> 00:08:34.920 with the Sunday 00:08:34.920 --> 00:08:35.540 morning sermon. 00:08:35.720 --> 00:08:36.340 It was kind of like 00:08:36.340 --> 00:08:37.200 the one-two punch 00:08:37.200 --> 00:08:38.720 that you're not 00:08:38.720 --> 00:08:39.860 just using relationship, 00:08:40.040 --> 00:08:40.820 you're using content, 00:08:40.940 --> 00:08:41.440 and it's not 00:08:41.440 --> 00:08:42.360 Sunday morning content, 00:08:42.520 --> 00:08:43.500 it's other stuff. 00:08:43.720 --> 00:08:43.820 So, 00:08:44.260 --> 00:08:45.220 maybe start to, 00:08:46.260 --> 00:08:46.940 I tell you what, 00:08:47.060 --> 00:08:47.920 unpack for me, 00:08:48.000 --> 00:08:48.240 kind of, 00:08:48.280 --> 00:08:49.020 what was the mindset, 00:08:49.140 --> 00:08:49.840 what was the genesis 00:08:49.840 --> 00:08:51.180 as you were creating 00:08:51.180 --> 00:08:52.360 this tweet, 00:08:52.420 --> 00:08:53.140 and then the series 00:08:53.140 --> 00:08:54.520 of posts following? 00:08:54.920 --> 00:08:55.060 Well, 00:08:55.060 --> 00:08:55.620 I think there's a lot 00:08:55.620 --> 00:08:56.440 of people out there 00:08:56.440 --> 00:08:58.000 who have a strong partition 00:08:58.000 --> 00:08:59.760 between what discipleship is 00:08:59.760 --> 00:09:00.920 and what you do online. 00:09:01.280 --> 00:09:01.920 And for them, 00:09:02.100 --> 00:09:03.500 discipleship is exclusively 00:09:03.500 --> 00:09:04.580 something that happens 00:09:04.580 --> 00:09:05.760 face-to-face. 00:09:05.840 --> 00:09:05.920 So, 00:09:05.960 --> 00:09:06.640 maybe that's a Sunday 00:09:06.640 --> 00:09:07.340 morning worship 00:09:07.340 --> 00:09:08.080 in a church, 00:09:08.380 --> 00:09:09.460 maybe that's a small group, 00:09:09.580 --> 00:09:10.700 maybe that's a one-to-one 00:09:10.700 --> 00:09:11.640 meeting with someone, 00:09:11.940 --> 00:09:12.620 that's where they think 00:09:12.620 --> 00:09:13.860 discipleship takes place. 00:09:13.980 --> 00:09:15.000 And I think that those things 00:09:15.000 --> 00:09:15.840 are all important, 00:09:15.980 --> 00:09:17.340 and they all do have a place. 00:09:17.580 --> 00:09:18.260 But I don't think that 00:09:18.260 --> 00:09:20.080 that's the exclusive domain 00:09:20.080 --> 00:09:20.800 of discipleship. 00:09:20.820 --> 00:09:21.720 I think that discipleship 00:09:21.720 --> 00:09:22.840 is far more holistic 00:09:22.840 --> 00:09:24.280 and involves far more 00:09:24.280 --> 00:09:24.820 than just what 00:09:24.820 --> 00:09:25.980 happens in relationship 00:09:25.980 --> 00:09:26.560 with someone 00:09:26.560 --> 00:09:27.700 when you see them face-to-face. 00:09:27.820 --> 00:09:28.240 And by the way, 00:09:28.420 --> 00:09:29.200 I think part of this 00:09:29.200 --> 00:09:29.700 is ridiculous. 00:09:29.860 --> 00:09:29.980 So, 00:09:30.060 --> 00:09:30.860 I think about my wife, 00:09:31.140 --> 00:09:31.980 her closest friends, 00:09:32.060 --> 00:09:33.400 they all love Marco Polo. 00:09:33.480 --> 00:09:34.200 It's this little app 00:09:34.200 --> 00:09:35.300 where you take a video 00:09:35.300 --> 00:09:35.740 of yourself 00:09:35.740 --> 00:09:36.700 and you send it to someone 00:09:36.700 --> 00:09:37.820 and they send one back. 00:09:38.120 --> 00:09:38.800 And it's almost kind of 00:09:38.800 --> 00:09:40.180 replaced phone conversations 00:09:40.180 --> 00:09:41.560 for millennials like me, 00:09:41.960 --> 00:09:42.860 especially women 00:09:42.860 --> 00:09:43.460 who want to see 00:09:43.460 --> 00:09:44.240 each other talking. 00:09:44.620 --> 00:09:45.620 And her closest friends, 00:09:45.700 --> 00:09:46.760 that's how they keep up. 00:09:47.020 --> 00:09:47.640 And she'll tell me 00:09:47.640 --> 00:09:48.000 all the time, 00:09:48.040 --> 00:09:48.200 she's like, 00:09:48.240 --> 00:09:49.900 I know what's happening 00:09:49.900 --> 00:09:50.660 in their lives 00:09:50.660 --> 00:09:52.300 because of digital technology. 00:09:52.660 --> 00:09:54.180 It's not putting a barrier 00:09:54.180 --> 00:09:55.120 up in our relationship. 00:09:55.120 --> 00:09:56.180 It's deepening 00:09:56.180 --> 00:09:56.980 our relationship. 00:09:56.980 --> 00:09:58.160 And when we get together, 00:09:58.160 --> 00:09:58.960 it's not weird 00:09:58.960 --> 00:10:00.000 when we see one another. 00:10:00.120 --> 00:10:00.600 It doesn't create 00:10:00.600 --> 00:10:01.500 some bizarre dynamic 00:10:01.500 --> 00:10:02.520 like I don't really know 00:10:02.520 --> 00:10:03.500 who you are. 00:10:03.720 --> 00:10:04.500 And I think that you can 00:10:04.500 --> 00:10:05.400 draw that principle out 00:10:05.400 --> 00:10:06.240 in so many other 00:10:06.240 --> 00:10:06.920 digital spheres, 00:10:07.000 --> 00:10:08.340 whether it's text threads 00:10:08.340 --> 00:10:09.600 or you're engaging with 00:10:09.600 --> 00:10:10.620 on Twitter or Facebook. 00:10:10.840 --> 00:10:11.800 There's so many different 00:10:11.800 --> 00:10:12.760 places where we both 00:10:12.760 --> 00:10:13.680 build relationships, 00:10:13.680 --> 00:10:15.160 but also to the point 00:10:15.160 --> 00:10:15.740 of content 00:10:15.740 --> 00:10:16.820 where we're deepening 00:10:16.820 --> 00:10:17.600 our understanding 00:10:17.600 --> 00:10:18.160 of Jesus 00:10:18.160 --> 00:10:19.180 and our love for Him. 00:10:19.400 --> 00:10:19.960 And I think that 00:10:19.960 --> 00:10:20.520 if you think about 00:10:20.520 --> 00:10:21.960 discipleship as being holistic, 00:10:21.960 --> 00:10:23.520 you cannot exclusively 00:10:23.520 --> 00:10:24.440 put it into 00:10:24.440 --> 00:10:25.660 in-flesh meetings. 00:10:25.860 --> 00:10:26.420 And I don't think 00:10:26.420 --> 00:10:27.420 anyone is consistent 00:10:27.420 --> 00:10:27.820 with that. 00:10:27.940 --> 00:10:28.900 And I would sit down 00:10:28.900 --> 00:10:29.120 with them 00:10:29.120 --> 00:10:29.840 and I would challenge them. 00:10:29.920 --> 00:10:31.120 Okay, put away your text, 00:10:31.240 --> 00:10:31.980 put away your phone, 00:10:32.120 --> 00:10:32.460 put away, 00:10:32.820 --> 00:10:33.620 stop using it 00:10:33.620 --> 00:10:33.980 because it all 00:10:33.980 --> 00:10:34.860 doesn't count anymore. 00:10:35.080 --> 00:10:35.640 And they'd say, 00:10:35.680 --> 00:10:36.260 well, that's ridiculous. 00:10:36.380 --> 00:10:36.960 I go, yes, 00:10:37.040 --> 00:10:37.880 you're being ridiculous. 00:10:38.020 --> 00:10:38.960 That's why that's a problem. 00:10:39.380 --> 00:10:39.800 It's beautiful. 00:10:39.940 --> 00:10:40.460 Now, we've said 00:10:40.460 --> 00:10:41.480 the word discipleship, 00:10:41.540 --> 00:10:41.900 I don't know, 00:10:42.140 --> 00:10:43.240 15 times already 00:10:43.240 --> 00:10:44.740 in this conversation. 00:10:44.740 --> 00:10:46.200 So let's back up here 00:10:46.200 --> 00:10:46.920 a little bit 00:10:46.920 --> 00:10:48.820 because I have a running joke. 00:10:48.900 --> 00:10:50.000 If you line up 10 pastors 00:10:50.000 --> 00:10:50.480 and ask them 00:10:50.480 --> 00:10:51.400 what discipleship is, 00:10:51.440 --> 00:10:52.200 you'll get like 12 00:10:52.200 --> 00:10:52.920 different answers, 00:10:53.420 --> 00:10:54.400 different takes 00:10:54.400 --> 00:10:56.000 along the way with that. 00:10:56.260 --> 00:10:57.920 So maybe help me here 00:10:57.920 --> 00:10:59.080 right up front here 00:10:59.080 --> 00:11:00.500 and let's define. 00:11:01.140 --> 00:11:02.820 What do you define? 00:11:02.900 --> 00:11:03.740 What is your church? 00:11:03.860 --> 00:11:04.660 What is the crossing? 00:11:05.140 --> 00:11:07.120 I define discipleship as. 00:11:07.540 --> 00:11:08.720 Yeah, that's a great question. 00:11:08.840 --> 00:11:09.760 And when I think about 00:11:09.760 --> 00:11:10.500 the gospel 00:11:10.500 --> 00:11:11.940 that is most about discipleship, 00:11:11.960 --> 00:11:12.440 I would go to 00:11:12.440 --> 00:11:13.400 the gospel of Matthew 00:11:13.400 --> 00:11:14.220 because it's the one 00:11:14.220 --> 00:11:15.440 where it shows 00:11:15.440 --> 00:11:16.640 a lot of the conversations 00:11:16.640 --> 00:11:17.980 that Jesus actually has 00:11:17.980 --> 00:11:18.660 with his disciples. 00:11:18.780 --> 00:11:19.160 And of course, 00:11:19.220 --> 00:11:20.040 the gospel ends 00:11:20.040 --> 00:11:20.860 with him telling 00:11:20.860 --> 00:11:21.480 those disciples, 00:11:21.720 --> 00:11:22.240 go therefore 00:11:22.240 --> 00:11:23.340 and make disciples 00:11:23.340 --> 00:11:23.980 of the nations. 00:11:24.420 --> 00:11:25.200 And that word, 00:11:25.340 --> 00:11:26.740 the Greek word is methetes, 00:11:26.780 --> 00:11:27.660 which just means a learner. 00:11:27.820 --> 00:11:28.700 I would actually prefer 00:11:28.700 --> 00:11:29.380 the word apprentice 00:11:29.380 --> 00:11:30.980 personally over discipleship 00:11:30.980 --> 00:11:31.840 because that's what 00:11:31.840 --> 00:11:32.900 discipleship is all about. 00:11:32.980 --> 00:11:33.920 It's about apprenticing 00:11:33.920 --> 00:11:35.020 yourself to Jesus. 00:11:35.560 --> 00:11:36.440 And apprenticing yourself 00:11:36.440 --> 00:11:38.220 to Jesus is a holistic task. 00:11:38.520 --> 00:11:39.500 It means I learn 00:11:39.500 --> 00:11:40.600 to speak like Jesus. 00:11:40.760 --> 00:11:41.940 I learn to walk 00:11:41.940 --> 00:11:42.880 in the way of Jesus. 00:11:43.020 --> 00:11:43.580 I learn to have 00:11:43.580 --> 00:11:44.880 the practices of Jesus. 00:11:44.880 --> 00:11:45.900 I learn to think 00:11:45.900 --> 00:11:46.540 like Jesus. 00:11:47.000 --> 00:11:47.640 And there's so many 00:11:47.640 --> 00:11:48.460 different ways 00:11:48.460 --> 00:11:49.400 in our walk with Jesus 00:11:49.400 --> 00:11:49.980 that we're going 00:11:49.980 --> 00:11:50.920 to be discipled. 00:11:51.220 --> 00:11:51.500 And again, 00:11:51.580 --> 00:11:52.820 I think digital has a place, 00:11:52.900 --> 00:11:53.920 especially when it comes 00:11:53.920 --> 00:11:55.340 to the learning aspect. 00:11:55.760 --> 00:11:57.420 Digital has a profound place 00:11:57.420 --> 00:11:58.600 in people's discipleship. 00:11:58.640 --> 00:11:59.300 Because here's the thing, 00:11:59.680 --> 00:12:01.120 if you're consuming 00:12:01.120 --> 00:12:01.880 podcasts 00:12:01.880 --> 00:12:03.480 or news shows 00:12:03.480 --> 00:12:04.720 consistently, 00:12:05.000 --> 00:12:06.200 they are discipling you. 00:12:06.440 --> 00:12:07.920 That's not neutral content. 00:12:08.300 --> 00:12:09.920 You are taking in information 00:12:09.920 --> 00:12:10.760 and it is shaping 00:12:10.760 --> 00:12:11.760 your view of the world. 00:12:11.880 --> 00:12:12.500 It's shaping your view 00:12:12.500 --> 00:12:13.040 of yourself. 00:12:13.160 --> 00:12:13.920 It's shaping your view 00:12:13.920 --> 00:12:14.940 of God. 00:12:15.560 --> 00:12:16.580 And if you're not 00:12:16.580 --> 00:12:17.460 taking in content 00:12:17.460 --> 00:12:18.260 that's helping you 00:12:18.260 --> 00:12:19.920 actually recalibrate 00:12:19.920 --> 00:12:21.240 yourself to Jesus, 00:12:21.520 --> 00:12:22.260 you're going to be 00:12:22.260 --> 00:12:23.220 discipled in a different 00:12:23.220 --> 00:12:23.560 direction. 00:12:23.680 --> 00:12:24.400 You'll begin to be 00:12:24.400 --> 00:12:25.940 apprenticed by Tucker Carlson 00:12:25.940 --> 00:12:27.120 or the New York Times 00:12:27.120 --> 00:12:28.040 or whatever it is 00:12:28.040 --> 00:12:29.040 that you are constantly 00:12:29.040 --> 00:12:29.800 taking in. 00:12:29.800 --> 00:12:31.440 Well, let me ask this. 00:12:31.720 --> 00:12:32.560 Because when we talk 00:12:32.560 --> 00:12:33.920 about the discipleship, 00:12:34.040 --> 00:12:35.540 I read books like 00:12:35.540 --> 00:12:37.360 The Other Half of Church, 00:12:37.480 --> 00:12:38.320 Michael Hendricks, 00:12:38.860 --> 00:12:39.800 Jim Wilder. 00:12:39.940 --> 00:12:40.480 I don't know if you're 00:12:40.480 --> 00:12:41.500 familiar with that one. 00:12:41.740 --> 00:12:43.720 It's a book came out 00:12:43.720 --> 00:12:44.980 maybe within the past year, 00:12:45.440 --> 00:12:46.560 but it dives into 00:12:46.560 --> 00:12:47.580 the brain science 00:12:47.580 --> 00:12:49.220 about how so much 00:12:49.220 --> 00:12:50.580 of what we're doing 00:12:50.580 --> 00:12:52.320 with discipleship, 00:12:52.400 --> 00:12:53.340 the content model 00:12:53.340 --> 00:12:54.420 didn't work. 00:12:55.440 --> 00:12:55.940 And actually, 00:12:56.060 --> 00:12:56.880 our brain operates 00:12:56.880 --> 00:12:57.860 more with it being 00:12:57.860 --> 00:12:58.980 in community. 00:12:59.240 --> 00:12:59.920 And that's where 00:12:59.920 --> 00:13:02.220 I'm surprised 00:13:02.220 --> 00:13:03.820 what I'm seeing. 00:13:04.020 --> 00:13:05.560 And even when you told me 00:13:05.560 --> 00:13:06.880 before the show, 00:13:06.960 --> 00:13:08.180 hey, my role is actually 00:13:08.180 --> 00:13:09.700 a digital relationships guy. 00:13:10.520 --> 00:13:12.380 When your church is doing 00:13:12.380 --> 00:13:14.220 digital discipleship, 00:13:14.400 --> 00:13:16.100 what's the role of content? 00:13:16.640 --> 00:13:17.280 What's the role 00:13:17.280 --> 00:13:18.240 with relationships? 00:13:18.600 --> 00:13:21.240 How do you get the balance? 00:13:21.440 --> 00:13:23.040 Is it 50-50, 60-40? 00:13:23.240 --> 00:13:25.240 What does this thing operate 00:13:25.240 --> 00:13:26.800 between the content 00:13:26.800 --> 00:13:27.700 and the relationships? 00:13:28.360 --> 00:13:28.740 Well, of course, 00:13:28.800 --> 00:13:29.620 it's going to depend 00:13:29.620 --> 00:13:30.700 person-to-person 00:13:30.700 --> 00:13:31.920 and how they're engaging 00:13:31.920 --> 00:13:32.900 with what we're doing 00:13:32.900 --> 00:13:33.880 as a church. 00:13:34.020 --> 00:13:35.060 For better or for worse, 00:13:35.120 --> 00:13:35.900 I think most people 00:13:35.900 --> 00:13:36.720 approach their churches 00:13:36.720 --> 00:13:37.980 kind of consumeristically. 00:13:38.360 --> 00:13:39.420 We come in asking, 00:13:39.580 --> 00:13:40.200 what are the services 00:13:40.200 --> 00:13:41.340 that you have to offer me? 00:13:41.440 --> 00:13:42.620 And what on the menu 00:13:42.620 --> 00:13:44.160 am I going to try and taste? 00:13:44.600 --> 00:13:45.500 And I don't think 00:13:45.500 --> 00:13:46.700 that's probably the best way 00:13:46.700 --> 00:13:47.500 to orient yourself 00:13:47.500 --> 00:13:48.140 towards church, 00:13:48.180 --> 00:13:49.000 if we're going to be honest. 00:13:49.120 --> 00:13:50.060 But that's how 00:13:50.060 --> 00:13:51.320 the average person does it. 00:13:51.440 --> 00:13:52.820 And so what we do 00:13:52.820 --> 00:13:53.300 as a church 00:13:53.300 --> 00:13:54.500 is we have all kinds 00:13:54.500 --> 00:13:55.860 of in-person opportunities 00:13:55.860 --> 00:13:56.380 for people 00:13:56.380 --> 00:13:57.460 to build relationships, 00:13:57.740 --> 00:13:58.380 whether that's 00:13:58.380 --> 00:13:59.200 through small groups 00:13:59.200 --> 00:14:00.460 or that's on Sunday mornings 00:14:00.460 --> 00:14:01.460 or elsewhere. 00:14:02.100 --> 00:14:03.600 And so we have 00:14:03.600 --> 00:14:04.100 those offerings. 00:14:04.280 --> 00:14:05.120 And yet on the other side, 00:14:05.200 --> 00:14:06.160 we realize that people 00:14:06.160 --> 00:14:06.720 are thinkers. 00:14:07.180 --> 00:14:07.880 And so that means 00:14:07.880 --> 00:14:08.480 that we do need 00:14:08.480 --> 00:14:09.380 to give them good content. 00:14:09.520 --> 00:14:10.500 Now, part of what we do 00:14:10.500 --> 00:14:11.040 with content 00:14:11.040 --> 00:14:12.440 is start conversations. 00:14:12.440 --> 00:14:13.260 Because if you both 00:14:13.260 --> 00:14:14.400 listen to the same podcast 00:14:14.400 --> 00:14:15.240 or you both download 00:14:15.240 --> 00:14:16.040 the same video, 00:14:16.400 --> 00:14:17.260 now you have an opportunity 00:14:17.260 --> 00:14:18.180 to get together 00:14:18.180 --> 00:14:19.460 and dialogue about it 00:14:19.460 --> 00:14:20.400 and engage with it. 00:14:20.600 --> 00:14:21.600 And I think beyond that, 00:14:21.660 --> 00:14:22.580 on a digital level, 00:14:22.880 --> 00:14:23.900 we try to be really intentional 00:14:23.900 --> 00:14:25.280 about building relationships 00:14:25.280 --> 00:14:26.700 with our listeners online. 00:14:26.840 --> 00:14:27.760 So I have a lot of people 00:14:27.760 --> 00:14:28.380 who are engaging 00:14:28.380 --> 00:14:29.120 with the podcasts 00:14:29.120 --> 00:14:29.680 that I do 00:14:29.680 --> 00:14:31.080 who are talking to me 00:14:31.080 --> 00:14:31.460 on Twitter 00:14:31.460 --> 00:14:32.900 and we DM with one another. 00:14:33.100 --> 00:14:33.960 And I'm not saying 00:14:33.960 --> 00:14:35.180 that it's the exact same thing 00:14:35.180 --> 00:14:36.220 as being face-to-face 00:14:36.220 --> 00:14:36.580 with them. 00:14:36.880 --> 00:14:37.920 But in a lot of ways, 00:14:37.980 --> 00:14:38.600 I've gotten to be 00:14:38.600 --> 00:14:39.360 a pastor to them. 00:14:39.780 --> 00:14:40.640 I'd say probably 00:14:40.640 --> 00:14:41.640 once or twice a week, 00:14:41.700 --> 00:14:42.480 I'm helping someone 00:14:42.480 --> 00:14:43.200 find a church 00:14:43.200 --> 00:14:44.120 in their local area 00:14:44.120 --> 00:14:44.980 because they haven't found 00:14:44.980 --> 00:14:46.240 a church to be connected to. 00:14:46.440 --> 00:14:47.940 I'm giving them advice 00:14:47.940 --> 00:14:49.020 on how to deal 00:14:49.020 --> 00:14:49.520 with a problem 00:14:49.520 --> 00:14:50.300 in their marriage. 00:14:50.600 --> 00:14:51.420 And that's all happening. 00:14:51.560 --> 00:14:52.460 That's all being mediated 00:14:52.460 --> 00:14:53.620 by digital technology. 00:14:54.100 --> 00:14:54.920 And so I don't think 00:14:54.920 --> 00:14:56.220 that content is everything. 00:14:56.420 --> 00:14:58.140 I think a content-exclusive model 00:14:58.140 --> 00:14:59.440 is always going to be a mistake. 00:14:59.600 --> 00:15:00.060 But I don't think 00:15:00.060 --> 00:15:01.060 that content is nothing. 00:15:01.560 --> 00:15:02.220 It's interesting. 00:15:02.560 --> 00:15:03.880 You're literally producing 00:15:03.880 --> 00:15:05.060 a podcast episode 00:15:05.060 --> 00:15:06.040 every day of the year. 00:15:06.220 --> 00:15:07.580 Is that how I'm reading this? 00:15:08.640 --> 00:15:10.420 365 podcasts a year? 00:15:10.520 --> 00:15:10.760 Yes. 00:15:11.240 --> 00:15:11.480 Yes. 00:15:12.020 --> 00:15:12.720 Help me, 00:15:12.840 --> 00:15:13.620 map me out 00:15:13.620 --> 00:15:16.240 what this stuff is. 00:15:16.660 --> 00:15:17.380 Because I'm assuming 00:15:17.380 --> 00:15:18.180 there's nuances, 00:15:18.400 --> 00:15:19.480 there's contextualization, 00:15:19.820 --> 00:15:20.420 you're reaching 00:15:20.420 --> 00:15:21.200 different people. 00:15:21.360 --> 00:15:22.200 There's some strategy 00:15:22.200 --> 00:15:22.920 behind this. 00:15:23.040 --> 00:15:24.200 So walk me through 00:15:24.200 --> 00:15:25.380 40,000 foot level. 00:15:25.640 --> 00:15:26.520 What are y'all doing? 00:15:26.840 --> 00:15:27.020 Yeah. 00:15:27.060 --> 00:15:27.820 So we didn't wake up 00:15:27.820 --> 00:15:28.560 one day and said, 00:15:28.660 --> 00:15:29.660 let's have a podcast 00:15:29.660 --> 00:15:30.660 for every day of the year. 00:15:31.560 --> 00:15:31.740 Yeah. 00:15:31.740 --> 00:15:32.640 It's not like the first 00:15:32.640 --> 00:15:33.760 10 minutes of the sermon 00:15:33.760 --> 00:15:34.640 just breaking it up 00:15:34.640 --> 00:15:35.440 piece by piece, right? 00:15:35.500 --> 00:15:36.080 There's got to be 00:15:36.080 --> 00:15:36.560 something more. 00:15:36.820 --> 00:15:37.060 No. 00:15:37.620 --> 00:15:39.240 And to be honest with you, 00:15:39.300 --> 00:15:39.860 and we could have 00:15:39.860 --> 00:15:40.560 this conversation, 00:15:40.840 --> 00:15:42.420 I think that Sunday 00:15:42.420 --> 00:15:43.380 morning centric, 00:15:43.500 --> 00:15:44.360 sermon centric 00:15:44.360 --> 00:15:45.460 digital ministries, 00:15:45.900 --> 00:15:47.160 in my view, 00:15:47.280 --> 00:15:48.720 make a slight mistake. 00:15:48.920 --> 00:15:50.060 But I'll set that aside 00:15:50.060 --> 00:15:51.500 for just a moment. 00:15:51.800 --> 00:15:52.820 What we did was 00:15:52.820 --> 00:15:54.120 we started identifying 00:15:54.120 --> 00:15:55.460 needs in our congregation. 00:15:55.680 --> 00:15:56.500 So it started with 00:15:56.500 --> 00:15:57.300 realizing that we had 00:15:57.300 --> 00:15:57.840 a lot of people 00:15:57.840 --> 00:15:58.760 who wanted to spend 00:15:58.760 --> 00:15:59.560 time in the Bible, 00:15:59.960 --> 00:16:00.500 but didn't know 00:16:00.500 --> 00:16:01.120 how to do it. 00:16:01.160 --> 00:16:01.720 They didn't know 00:16:01.720 --> 00:16:02.260 where to start. 00:16:02.360 --> 00:16:02.940 They didn't know 00:16:02.940 --> 00:16:03.600 how to apply it 00:16:03.600 --> 00:16:04.020 to their lives. 00:16:04.080 --> 00:16:04.300 We said, 00:16:04.400 --> 00:16:05.720 let's start a little podcast 00:16:05.720 --> 00:16:06.460 where we release 00:16:06.460 --> 00:16:08.100 two 10-minute devotionals 00:16:08.100 --> 00:16:09.320 on Bible passages. 00:16:09.420 --> 00:16:09.940 And we'll just go 00:16:09.940 --> 00:16:10.860 through books of the Bible 00:16:10.860 --> 00:16:12.060 and do little devotionals. 00:16:12.540 --> 00:16:13.740 And slowly over time, 00:16:13.800 --> 00:16:14.840 we started adding in 00:16:14.840 --> 00:16:15.460 new hosts 00:16:15.460 --> 00:16:16.680 and adding in frequency. 00:16:16.840 --> 00:16:17.260 And so that's one 00:16:17.260 --> 00:16:17.900 of our podcasts, 00:16:18.020 --> 00:16:19.020 10-minute Bible talks. 00:16:19.460 --> 00:16:20.000 And it's been 00:16:20.000 --> 00:16:20.820 incredibly successful. 00:16:21.000 --> 00:16:21.120 I mean, 00:16:21.280 --> 00:16:22.520 I think we average 00:16:22.520 --> 00:16:23.020 something like 00:16:23.020 --> 00:16:24.160 300,000 downloads 00:16:24.160 --> 00:16:24.920 a month. 00:16:25.040 --> 00:16:25.860 And that's obviously 00:16:25.860 --> 00:16:26.460 across the country. 00:16:26.540 --> 00:16:27.140 We don't have that many 00:16:27.140 --> 00:16:28.820 people in our church. 00:16:29.280 --> 00:16:29.940 But then we started 00:16:29.940 --> 00:16:30.880 identifying other needs. 00:16:30.920 --> 00:16:31.240 For example, 00:16:31.320 --> 00:16:31.960 we knew that there 00:16:31.960 --> 00:16:32.340 was this 00:16:32.360 --> 00:16:33.240 a lot of women 00:16:33.240 --> 00:16:34.060 in their 20s 00:16:34.060 --> 00:16:34.500 in our church 00:16:34.500 --> 00:16:35.200 who were trying 00:16:35.200 --> 00:16:35.760 to navigate 00:16:35.760 --> 00:16:36.640 their early 20s. 00:16:36.700 --> 00:16:37.420 I'm out of college. 00:16:37.540 --> 00:16:38.660 I'm working my first job. 00:16:38.760 --> 00:16:39.780 Maybe I just got married. 00:16:39.840 --> 00:16:40.540 How do I do this? 00:16:40.940 --> 00:16:41.260 And so, 00:16:41.420 --> 00:16:41.920 and this is where you have 00:16:41.920 --> 00:16:42.500 to have the priesthood 00:16:42.500 --> 00:16:43.020 of all believers. 00:16:43.320 --> 00:16:44.840 We identified people 00:16:44.840 --> 00:16:45.380 in our church 00:16:45.380 --> 00:16:46.840 who were good communicators. 00:16:46.980 --> 00:16:47.920 They're not on staff. 00:16:48.020 --> 00:16:48.720 They're not pastors. 00:16:48.860 --> 00:16:49.880 They're just two women 00:16:49.880 --> 00:16:51.580 who love to talk about life 00:16:51.580 --> 00:16:52.460 and are deep thinkers. 00:16:52.540 --> 00:16:52.820 And we said, 00:16:52.880 --> 00:16:53.040 hey, 00:16:53.300 --> 00:16:54.160 why don't you put together 00:16:54.160 --> 00:16:54.900 a little podcast 00:16:54.900 --> 00:16:56.580 that deals with the topics 00:16:56.580 --> 00:16:57.520 that women in their 20s 00:16:57.520 --> 00:16:57.900 are asking? 00:16:58.020 --> 00:16:58.280 And so, 00:16:58.560 --> 00:16:59.500 that became another one. 00:16:59.700 --> 00:17:00.720 Another one of our pastors 00:17:00.720 --> 00:17:02.320 is really into prayer. 00:17:02.320 --> 00:17:03.060 and meditation, 00:17:03.240 --> 00:17:03.980 meditative prayer. 00:17:04.380 --> 00:17:04.560 And so, 00:17:04.660 --> 00:17:04.840 again, 00:17:04.900 --> 00:17:05.280 we realized 00:17:05.280 --> 00:17:05.780 there's a lot of people 00:17:05.780 --> 00:17:06.800 struggling with anxiety 00:17:06.800 --> 00:17:07.560 and they're interested 00:17:07.560 --> 00:17:08.180 in meditation. 00:17:08.400 --> 00:17:08.500 So, 00:17:08.760 --> 00:17:09.340 guess what we did? 00:17:09.360 --> 00:17:10.420 We started a podcast for it. 00:17:10.420 --> 00:17:10.880 We started one 00:17:10.880 --> 00:17:11.740 for our counseling ministry. 00:17:11.860 --> 00:17:12.700 We realized that politics 00:17:12.700 --> 00:17:13.620 and culture were an issue 00:17:13.620 --> 00:17:13.980 and that people 00:17:13.980 --> 00:17:14.660 were being discipled 00:17:14.660 --> 00:17:15.300 by the news media. 00:17:15.380 --> 00:17:15.460 So, 00:17:15.520 --> 00:17:16.040 we started one 00:17:16.040 --> 00:17:16.860 on that topic. 00:17:17.140 --> 00:17:17.280 So, 00:17:17.360 --> 00:17:18.440 what we essentially did, 00:17:18.500 --> 00:17:19.060 if you catch it, 00:17:19.080 --> 00:17:20.420 was we found needs. 00:17:21.280 --> 00:17:22.540 We came up with an idea 00:17:22.540 --> 00:17:23.400 to meet the need 00:17:23.400 --> 00:17:23.860 digitally 00:17:23.860 --> 00:17:24.980 in terms of content. 00:17:25.320 --> 00:17:26.360 And then we found 00:17:26.360 --> 00:17:27.340 and located people 00:17:27.340 --> 00:17:28.400 inside of our church 00:17:28.400 --> 00:17:29.200 who could speak 00:17:29.200 --> 00:17:29.900 to those needs. 00:17:30.020 --> 00:17:30.600 And then we began 00:17:30.600 --> 00:17:31.520 to produce the content. 00:17:32.000 --> 00:17:32.100 So, 00:17:32.200 --> 00:17:32.900 it's not as though 00:17:32.900 --> 00:17:34.100 there's one podcast 00:17:34.100 --> 00:17:35.480 with an episode 00:17:35.480 --> 00:17:36.620 coming out every day. 00:17:37.020 --> 00:17:37.200 No, 00:17:37.260 --> 00:17:37.900 we have a whole 00:17:37.900 --> 00:17:39.080 kind of backlog 00:17:39.080 --> 00:17:39.860 of podcasts 00:17:39.860 --> 00:17:40.680 that are doing 00:17:40.680 --> 00:17:41.440 different things 00:17:41.440 --> 00:17:42.280 for different people 00:17:42.280 --> 00:17:42.820 that are speaking 00:17:42.820 --> 00:17:44.000 to different felt needs 00:17:44.000 --> 00:17:45.360 that hopefully address 00:17:45.360 --> 00:17:46.140 where they're at 00:17:46.140 --> 00:17:46.660 in their walk 00:17:46.660 --> 00:17:47.720 with Jesus right now. 00:17:48.120 --> 00:17:48.900 Do you have 00:17:48.900 --> 00:17:51.240 more ideas? 00:17:51.640 --> 00:17:52.060 Are people 00:17:52.060 --> 00:17:52.940 coming to you 00:17:52.940 --> 00:17:53.880 with ideas? 00:17:54.380 --> 00:17:55.620 What would 00:17:55.620 --> 00:17:56.740 a new podcast, 00:17:56.920 --> 00:17:57.580 what would that process 00:17:57.580 --> 00:17:57.980 look like 00:17:57.980 --> 00:17:58.440 if you were doing 00:17:58.440 --> 00:17:59.000 something different? 00:17:59.320 --> 00:17:59.560 Oh, yeah. 00:17:59.620 --> 00:17:59.780 I mean, 00:17:59.820 --> 00:18:00.640 this definitely happens 00:18:00.640 --> 00:18:01.080 all the time. 00:18:01.160 --> 00:18:01.500 For example, 00:18:01.560 --> 00:18:02.340 we have another couple 00:18:02.340 --> 00:18:02.880 in our church 00:18:02.880 --> 00:18:04.680 who has a neighboring ministry. 00:18:04.860 --> 00:18:04.940 So, 00:18:05.000 --> 00:18:05.460 these are people 00:18:05.460 --> 00:18:06.800 who are really intentional 00:18:06.800 --> 00:18:07.740 about getting to know 00:18:07.740 --> 00:18:08.280 their neighbors. 00:18:08.620 --> 00:18:09.680 They live in a suburb 00:18:09.680 --> 00:18:11.380 and kind of becoming 00:18:11.380 --> 00:18:12.740 a hub for relationship 00:18:12.740 --> 00:18:13.420 and community 00:18:13.420 --> 00:18:13.980 in their neighborhood. 00:18:14.120 --> 00:18:14.280 And so, 00:18:14.400 --> 00:18:15.340 they've practiced 00:18:15.340 --> 00:18:16.380 this for years 00:18:16.380 --> 00:18:16.720 and they have 00:18:16.720 --> 00:18:17.860 an incredible talent 00:18:17.860 --> 00:18:18.360 for neighboring 00:18:18.360 --> 00:18:18.700 and they have 00:18:18.700 --> 00:18:19.600 all of these ideas 00:18:19.600 --> 00:18:20.140 and skills 00:18:20.140 --> 00:18:20.720 that they can teach 00:18:20.720 --> 00:18:21.360 people to do. 00:18:21.680 --> 00:18:22.080 They even wrote 00:18:22.080 --> 00:18:22.920 a book on the topic. 00:18:23.360 --> 00:18:23.640 And so, 00:18:23.780 --> 00:18:24.860 I was talking with them 00:18:24.860 --> 00:18:25.300 and they're, 00:18:25.500 --> 00:18:25.560 again, 00:18:25.640 --> 00:18:26.500 good communicators. 00:18:26.840 --> 00:18:27.100 And I said, 00:18:27.160 --> 00:18:27.840 you guys need to turn 00:18:27.840 --> 00:18:29.120 this thing into a podcast. 00:18:29.220 --> 00:18:29.300 So, 00:18:29.340 --> 00:18:30.300 that's often how it goes 00:18:30.300 --> 00:18:30.900 is you're talking 00:18:30.900 --> 00:18:31.360 with someone, 00:18:31.680 --> 00:18:32.760 they already have the itch, 00:18:32.800 --> 00:18:33.500 they already have the need. 00:18:33.560 --> 00:18:34.480 I see a problem. 00:18:34.980 --> 00:18:35.600 And it's right, 00:18:35.860 --> 00:18:37.040 that's a sweet spot. 00:18:37.120 --> 00:18:37.980 When someone identifies 00:18:37.980 --> 00:18:38.520 a problem 00:18:38.520 --> 00:18:39.440 and they want to help 00:18:39.440 --> 00:18:40.280 fix the problem 00:18:40.280 --> 00:18:41.220 and solve the problem, 00:18:41.560 --> 00:18:42.220 that's exactly 00:18:42.220 --> 00:18:42.980 the kind of person 00:18:42.980 --> 00:18:44.020 who you can bring in 00:18:44.020 --> 00:18:44.700 and start having 00:18:44.700 --> 00:18:45.400 create content. 00:18:45.500 --> 00:18:45.620 I mean, 00:18:45.660 --> 00:18:46.460 assuming that they're 00:18:46.460 --> 00:18:47.180 creative, 00:18:47.320 --> 00:18:48.120 good communicators, 00:18:48.220 --> 00:18:48.680 they're skills 00:18:48.680 --> 00:18:49.720 that have to be present 00:18:49.720 --> 00:18:51.040 for people to be able 00:18:51.040 --> 00:18:51.760 to do a podcast. 00:18:52.160 --> 00:18:52.800 But that's often 00:18:52.800 --> 00:18:53.420 how it goes. 00:18:53.520 --> 00:18:53.840 Again, 00:18:53.940 --> 00:18:54.780 we find a problem, 00:18:54.900 --> 00:18:55.340 we find someone 00:18:55.340 --> 00:18:55.740 who has a heart 00:18:55.740 --> 00:18:56.380 for the problem 00:18:56.380 --> 00:18:56.820 and who has 00:18:56.820 --> 00:18:57.400 the right skills 00:18:57.400 --> 00:18:58.840 and then we equip them. 00:18:58.920 --> 00:18:59.820 We know how to do it. 00:18:59.880 --> 00:19:00.920 We have the system down. 00:19:01.020 --> 00:19:01.100 So, 00:19:01.180 --> 00:19:02.340 we make it super easy 00:19:02.340 --> 00:19:03.040 for these people. 00:19:03.140 --> 00:19:03.880 They just show up 00:19:03.880 --> 00:19:04.480 and do their thing 00:19:04.480 --> 00:19:04.920 and leave. 00:19:05.160 --> 00:19:05.340 Yeah, 00:19:05.400 --> 00:19:06.200 I love this 00:19:06.200 --> 00:19:06.860 because you're 00:19:06.860 --> 00:19:07.780 finding people 00:19:07.780 --> 00:19:08.980 that are passionate 00:19:08.980 --> 00:19:09.840 about this 00:19:09.840 --> 00:19:10.520 and you're 00:19:10.520 --> 00:19:12.160 helping them 00:19:12.160 --> 00:19:13.660 develop a voice 00:19:13.660 --> 00:19:15.340 to multiply those ideas 00:19:15.340 --> 00:19:16.360 into others. 00:19:16.600 --> 00:19:16.640 Like, 00:19:17.040 --> 00:19:19.260 I'll just keep flowing here. 00:19:19.640 --> 00:19:20.720 What training? 00:19:20.840 --> 00:19:20.940 So, 00:19:21.020 --> 00:19:21.860 you've got a couple, 00:19:22.360 --> 00:19:23.520 maybe they're charismatic, 00:19:23.820 --> 00:19:25.000 this neighboring group. 00:19:25.480 --> 00:19:26.620 Have they ever done 00:19:26.620 --> 00:19:27.920 anything with podcasts? 00:19:28.260 --> 00:19:28.800 Do they even 00:19:28.800 --> 00:19:30.240 know how to spell podcasts? 00:19:30.540 --> 00:19:32.780 What are you helping them do 00:19:32.780 --> 00:19:33.920 to get started? 00:19:34.360 --> 00:19:34.500 Yeah, 00:19:34.580 --> 00:19:35.660 so we have a pretty 00:19:35.660 --> 00:19:37.100 well-established process. 00:19:37.380 --> 00:19:38.580 When we bring someone on 00:19:38.580 --> 00:19:39.020 with the idea 00:19:39.020 --> 00:19:39.840 of starting a podcast, 00:19:40.320 --> 00:19:41.640 we begin with 00:19:41.640 --> 00:19:42.560 what I call 00:19:42.560 --> 00:19:43.320 target personas 00:19:43.320 --> 00:19:44.140 and this is pretty 00:19:44.140 --> 00:19:45.400 normal marketing speak. 00:19:45.820 --> 00:19:46.580 We identify 00:19:46.580 --> 00:19:48.180 and we literally create 00:19:48.180 --> 00:19:48.800 little 00:19:48.800 --> 00:19:50.800 one-page documents 00:19:50.800 --> 00:19:51.440 describing 00:19:51.440 --> 00:19:53.240 who their target listeners are 00:19:53.240 --> 00:19:54.020 and we make them 00:19:54.020 --> 00:19:54.680 like real people. 00:19:54.840 --> 00:19:54.880 Like, 00:19:54.960 --> 00:19:55.500 this is Ben 00:19:55.500 --> 00:19:56.340 and this is Tom 00:19:56.340 --> 00:19:57.200 and we describe 00:19:57.200 --> 00:19:58.160 where they're at in life, 00:19:58.240 --> 00:19:58.740 what they do, 00:19:58.860 --> 00:19:59.820 what their education is, 00:19:59.860 --> 00:20:00.680 what their fears are, 00:20:00.760 --> 00:20:01.680 what they're interested in, 00:20:01.720 --> 00:20:02.860 what questions they have 00:20:02.860 --> 00:20:03.840 and we do that 00:20:03.840 --> 00:20:04.920 because one of the hard 00:20:04.920 --> 00:20:05.720 things in a podcast 00:20:05.720 --> 00:20:07.560 is that it's a one-way conversation 00:20:07.560 --> 00:20:08.880 and it's really important 00:20:08.880 --> 00:20:09.940 to keep the person 00:20:09.940 --> 00:20:10.840 that you're talking to 00:20:10.840 --> 00:20:11.420 in views 00:20:11.420 --> 00:20:12.120 that you're not just 00:20:12.120 --> 00:20:13.000 talking to yourself. 00:20:13.440 --> 00:20:14.440 So we begin there 00:20:14.440 --> 00:20:15.100 and once we have 00:20:15.100 --> 00:20:16.260 a target persona laid out, 00:20:16.340 --> 00:20:17.180 that's actually when we move 00:20:17.180 --> 00:20:18.040 more into kind of the 00:20:18.040 --> 00:20:19.560 titling and branding 00:20:19.560 --> 00:20:20.640 and brainstorming 00:20:20.640 --> 00:20:21.620 of what the different episodes 00:20:21.620 --> 00:20:22.300 could be. 00:20:22.740 --> 00:20:23.200 That's when we get into 00:20:23.200 --> 00:20:24.120 that phase of ideation 00:20:24.120 --> 00:20:24.580 because again, 00:20:24.640 --> 00:20:25.080 if you don't know 00:20:25.080 --> 00:20:26.080 who your audience is, 00:20:26.480 --> 00:20:27.880 your branding 00:20:27.880 --> 00:20:28.800 and everything you put together 00:20:28.800 --> 00:20:29.620 is not going to hit 00:20:29.620 --> 00:20:30.240 the right target. 00:20:30.680 --> 00:20:31.220 And by the way, 00:20:31.300 --> 00:20:31.920 if your goal 00:20:31.920 --> 00:20:32.720 is just for you 00:20:32.720 --> 00:20:33.760 to become famous 00:20:33.760 --> 00:20:34.600 or a celebrity, 00:20:35.120 --> 00:20:36.120 that's in my mind 00:20:36.120 --> 00:20:37.000 not very worthwhile. 00:20:37.340 --> 00:20:38.320 I'm not interested in it. 00:20:38.420 --> 00:20:38.920 If your goal 00:20:38.920 --> 00:20:39.720 is to help people, 00:20:40.080 --> 00:20:41.220 then I want to help you 00:20:41.220 --> 00:20:41.960 and that's again 00:20:41.960 --> 00:20:43.320 why starting with the audience, 00:20:43.480 --> 00:20:44.220 you want to help people 00:20:44.220 --> 00:20:45.100 so you got to start with them. 00:20:45.540 --> 00:20:46.400 Once we get that down, 00:20:46.960 --> 00:20:48.440 we get them into our, 00:20:48.520 --> 00:20:49.760 we have a little studio space now 00:20:49.760 --> 00:20:50.340 but we haven't. 00:20:50.400 --> 00:20:50.460 I mean, 00:20:50.480 --> 00:20:51.180 this is brand new 00:20:51.180 --> 00:20:52.120 so we've done this largely 00:20:52.120 --> 00:20:53.380 without having anywhere 00:20:53.380 --> 00:20:54.500 to record 00:20:54.500 --> 00:20:55.900 but we just developed 00:20:55.900 --> 00:20:56.980 a really simple system 00:20:56.980 --> 00:20:57.560 for how people 00:20:57.560 --> 00:20:58.540 could record things 00:20:58.540 --> 00:20:59.720 and what we actually 00:20:59.720 --> 00:21:00.160 have them do 00:21:00.160 --> 00:21:00.760 is record 00:21:00.760 --> 00:21:01.880 probably three or four 00:21:01.880 --> 00:21:02.580 test episodes. 00:21:02.780 --> 00:21:04.040 We tell them to send it out 00:21:04.040 --> 00:21:04.660 to kind of their 00:21:04.660 --> 00:21:05.800 key essential people 00:21:05.800 --> 00:21:06.980 get feedback on it 00:21:06.980 --> 00:21:08.820 and they use that feedback 00:21:08.820 --> 00:21:10.060 then to change 00:21:10.060 --> 00:21:11.300 the format of the podcast 00:21:11.300 --> 00:21:12.340 and frankly, 00:21:12.460 --> 00:21:13.120 just to learn, 00:21:13.240 --> 00:21:13.920 to figure out 00:21:13.920 --> 00:21:14.680 how do we talk 00:21:14.680 --> 00:21:15.220 on the podcast 00:21:15.220 --> 00:21:15.840 and those episodes 00:21:15.840 --> 00:21:16.960 never get released. 00:21:17.320 --> 00:21:18.100 It's just kind of practice 00:21:18.100 --> 00:21:18.560 and of course, 00:21:18.660 --> 00:21:19.500 I listen to those 00:21:19.500 --> 00:21:20.800 and I give them feedback 00:21:20.800 --> 00:21:22.100 and kind of help coach them. 00:21:22.420 --> 00:21:22.540 I mean, 00:21:22.560 --> 00:21:23.400 part of podcasting 00:21:23.400 --> 00:21:24.220 and you know this is 00:21:24.220 --> 00:21:25.340 your first 00:21:25.340 --> 00:21:26.120 you know, 00:21:26.180 --> 00:21:27.020 hundred episodes 00:21:27.020 --> 00:21:28.120 aren't going to be great. 00:21:28.960 --> 00:21:30.960 That's not going to be your best. 00:21:31.240 --> 00:21:32.560 You get better over time 00:21:32.560 --> 00:21:33.620 and so that's where 00:21:33.620 --> 00:21:35.300 we just try to coach people 00:21:35.300 --> 00:21:36.440 and help encourage them 00:21:36.440 --> 00:21:37.620 and then on the back end, 00:21:37.700 --> 00:21:38.640 like we're really strategic 00:21:38.640 --> 00:21:39.740 about actually marketing 00:21:39.740 --> 00:21:40.400 these podcasts, 00:21:40.540 --> 00:21:41.280 making sure that people 00:21:41.280 --> 00:21:41.800 in our church 00:21:41.800 --> 00:21:43.000 know that they exist, 00:21:43.340 --> 00:21:44.000 making sure that people 00:21:44.000 --> 00:21:44.920 outside our church 00:21:44.920 --> 00:21:46.460 see that they're out there 00:21:46.460 --> 00:21:47.540 and so that's kind of 00:21:47.540 --> 00:21:48.340 the whole package 00:21:48.340 --> 00:21:49.000 of what we do 00:21:49.000 --> 00:21:50.060 to go from 00:21:50.060 --> 00:21:51.880 idea to execution. 00:21:52.440 --> 00:21:52.720 That's, 00:21:52.840 --> 00:21:53.580 this is incredible. 00:21:53.940 --> 00:21:54.920 I was not expecting 00:21:54.920 --> 00:21:55.640 this conversation 00:21:55.640 --> 00:21:56.460 coming out of this 00:21:56.460 --> 00:21:56.880 but you're, 00:21:57.280 --> 00:21:58.420 what you've done is, 00:21:58.500 --> 00:21:58.600 you know, 00:21:58.620 --> 00:21:59.340 we talk about here 00:21:59.340 --> 00:22:00.060 on the show a lot 00:22:00.060 --> 00:22:01.200 the greatest resource 00:22:01.200 --> 00:22:01.880 the church has 00:22:01.880 --> 00:22:03.020 is literally sitting 00:22:03.020 --> 00:22:03.580 in the pews. 00:22:03.680 --> 00:22:04.580 We just got to figure out 00:22:04.580 --> 00:22:06.180 how to tap into it 00:22:06.180 --> 00:22:08.060 and you're doing that. 00:22:08.220 --> 00:22:09.920 You're platforming others, 00:22:10.420 --> 00:22:11.120 helping them do 00:22:11.120 --> 00:22:11.780 what they feel like 00:22:11.780 --> 00:22:12.940 God is calling them to do 00:22:12.940 --> 00:22:13.640 and multiplying 00:22:13.640 --> 00:22:14.660 those ideas 00:22:14.660 --> 00:22:15.660 into others 00:22:15.660 --> 00:22:16.940 so that other people 00:22:16.940 --> 00:22:18.120 within the church 00:22:18.120 --> 00:22:19.600 can follow suit. 00:22:20.020 --> 00:22:21.700 how did you get there? 00:22:22.040 --> 00:22:22.280 Like, 00:22:22.340 --> 00:22:23.300 this is not something 00:22:23.300 --> 00:22:24.720 that happens quickly. 00:22:24.880 --> 00:22:25.420 There's a, 00:22:25.860 --> 00:22:26.200 there's a, 00:22:26.280 --> 00:22:27.420 there's multiple levels 00:22:27.420 --> 00:22:28.460 of culture here. 00:22:28.880 --> 00:22:29.240 One, 00:22:29.320 --> 00:22:29.980 you've got to be okay 00:22:29.980 --> 00:22:30.640 doing something 00:22:30.640 --> 00:22:31.680 other than Sunday morning. 00:22:31.920 --> 00:22:32.860 You've got to be okay 00:22:32.860 --> 00:22:33.920 empowering other people. 00:22:34.000 --> 00:22:34.860 You've got to being okay 00:22:34.860 --> 00:22:35.640 with failure 00:22:35.640 --> 00:22:38.060 or lack of connection 00:22:38.060 --> 00:22:39.440 or people walking away. 00:22:39.800 --> 00:22:39.980 Like, 00:22:40.060 --> 00:22:40.420 there's, 00:22:40.840 --> 00:22:42.100 not your typical church 00:22:42.100 --> 00:22:43.320 couldn't pull some of this off. 00:22:43.400 --> 00:22:43.880 How did you, 00:22:43.940 --> 00:22:45.160 how did you get to this point? 00:22:45.580 --> 00:22:45.700 Yeah, 00:22:45.740 --> 00:22:45.900 I mean, 00:22:45.920 --> 00:22:47.500 part of it is our church culture. 00:22:47.960 --> 00:22:49.180 We have a few values. 00:22:49.400 --> 00:22:50.420 One of them is agility, 00:22:50.600 --> 00:22:52.200 the ability to move swiftly 00:22:52.200 --> 00:22:53.080 in the new things 00:22:53.080 --> 00:22:54.000 and accept change 00:22:54.000 --> 00:22:56.420 and to not be resistant to change. 00:22:56.780 --> 00:22:58.080 Another one is extreme ownership, 00:22:58.260 --> 00:22:58.920 which is the notion 00:22:58.920 --> 00:23:00.280 that when I'm doing something, 00:23:00.360 --> 00:23:02.100 I see myself as an owner of it. 00:23:02.100 --> 00:23:03.880 And that goes to our last value, 00:23:03.980 --> 00:23:04.600 which is excellence. 00:23:04.780 --> 00:23:05.740 Doing things well, 00:23:06.120 --> 00:23:07.540 making sure that things are executed 00:23:07.540 --> 00:23:08.840 at a high level. 00:23:09.220 --> 00:23:10.240 And so back in 2019, 00:23:10.240 --> 00:23:12.580 when we started our first podcast, 00:23:12.760 --> 00:23:12.880 I mean, 00:23:12.900 --> 00:23:13.680 we haven't been doing this 00:23:13.680 --> 00:23:14.380 for that long 00:23:14.380 --> 00:23:15.260 in terms of years. 00:23:16.360 --> 00:23:17.300 It was agility. 00:23:17.420 --> 00:23:17.780 It was saying, 00:23:17.960 --> 00:23:18.100 hey, 00:23:18.220 --> 00:23:20.020 we want to reach people 00:23:20.020 --> 00:23:21.260 in between Sundays. 00:23:21.740 --> 00:23:22.520 We don't want church 00:23:22.520 --> 00:23:23.260 to just be something 00:23:23.260 --> 00:23:24.940 that you show up for 00:23:24.940 --> 00:23:25.680 one day a week 00:23:25.680 --> 00:23:26.760 and then it checks out on you. 00:23:26.800 --> 00:23:27.920 It's almost a parish model. 00:23:28.060 --> 00:23:28.660 Back in the day, 00:23:28.700 --> 00:23:30.080 a pastor could walk around 00:23:30.080 --> 00:23:31.200 to people's houses 00:23:31.200 --> 00:23:32.080 and workplaces 00:23:32.080 --> 00:23:33.060 and check in on them. 00:23:33.380 --> 00:23:34.560 And that's what I see podcasts as. 00:23:34.600 --> 00:23:35.860 It's kind of like a little parish 00:23:35.860 --> 00:23:36.920 where you get to be a part. 00:23:37.000 --> 00:23:38.180 And people tell me this all the time. 00:23:38.260 --> 00:23:38.380 They're like, 00:23:38.420 --> 00:23:38.520 hey, 00:23:38.540 --> 00:23:39.860 I was out running on the trail yesterday 00:23:39.860 --> 00:23:40.600 listening to you. 00:23:40.680 --> 00:23:41.840 And that was a great episode. 00:23:42.280 --> 00:23:43.120 And that's the funny thing. 00:23:43.220 --> 00:23:44.480 That's the relational side is, 00:23:44.780 --> 00:23:44.940 yes, 00:23:44.980 --> 00:23:46.220 I wasn't having a conversation 00:23:46.220 --> 00:23:46.740 with them, 00:23:46.800 --> 00:23:48.240 but they felt like I was. 00:23:48.360 --> 00:23:49.660 They feel like I'm a part 00:23:49.660 --> 00:23:50.280 of their life. 00:23:50.360 --> 00:23:50.940 And I love that. 00:23:51.000 --> 00:23:51.880 I think that's really lovely. 00:23:52.440 --> 00:23:53.180 But again, 00:23:53.260 --> 00:23:54.340 we had agility. 00:23:54.520 --> 00:23:54.920 And then obviously, 00:23:55.040 --> 00:23:56.220 COVID hit in 2020. 00:23:56.940 --> 00:23:58.040 And because our team 00:23:58.040 --> 00:23:58.720 had already been working 00:23:58.720 --> 00:23:59.800 on some of this digital stuff, 00:23:59.920 --> 00:24:00.720 we just as a church 00:24:00.720 --> 00:24:01.960 really reallocated 00:24:01.960 --> 00:24:03.160 resources and people 00:24:03.160 --> 00:24:04.360 so that we could focus 00:24:04.360 --> 00:24:06.360 more of our actual man hours 00:24:06.360 --> 00:24:07.820 on digital content. 00:24:08.240 --> 00:24:09.280 And that was a major shift. 00:24:09.360 --> 00:24:10.440 That was a financial shift. 00:24:10.760 --> 00:24:11.800 That was a big risk. 00:24:11.800 --> 00:24:12.560 But in the end, 00:24:12.620 --> 00:24:14.060 it's really paid off for us 00:24:14.060 --> 00:24:15.060 because we've realized 00:24:15.060 --> 00:24:16.680 that using this digital technology, 00:24:16.680 --> 00:24:17.800 we're able to reach 00:24:17.800 --> 00:24:19.000 a tremendous amount of people. 00:24:19.080 --> 00:24:20.000 And we just put a number on it. 00:24:20.060 --> 00:24:21.240 We lost about 30% 00:24:21.240 --> 00:24:22.360 of our church during COVID, 00:24:22.520 --> 00:24:23.560 which is pretty standard 00:24:23.560 --> 00:24:25.480 for most in-person churches. 00:24:26.320 --> 00:24:26.980 Since then, 00:24:27.020 --> 00:24:27.160 though, 00:24:27.160 --> 00:24:29.280 we've added an additional 40%. 00:24:29.280 --> 00:24:30.680 And that's largely been 00:24:30.680 --> 00:24:32.700 through our online content, 00:24:32.780 --> 00:24:33.600 the stuff that we've used. 00:24:33.660 --> 00:24:34.220 And these are people 00:24:34.220 --> 00:24:35.140 in our local town. 00:24:35.200 --> 00:24:36.260 We're not in a big town. 00:24:36.340 --> 00:24:36.740 This is a town 00:24:36.740 --> 00:24:37.960 of 150,000 people. 00:24:38.360 --> 00:24:39.200 But we've added 00:24:39.200 --> 00:24:40.380 an additional 40% 00:24:40.380 --> 00:24:41.400 into our church. 00:24:41.720 --> 00:24:42.300 And a lot of these people 00:24:42.300 --> 00:24:43.100 are baby Christians. 00:24:43.280 --> 00:24:44.280 They're new to their faith. 00:24:44.420 --> 00:24:45.700 So it's a different kind of person 00:24:45.700 --> 00:24:47.480 maybe than that left initially. 00:24:47.980 --> 00:24:49.660 But to me, 00:24:49.800 --> 00:24:51.420 this is why it's so important. 00:24:51.580 --> 00:24:51.920 It's because we're 00:24:51.920 --> 00:24:53.040 in a post-Christian culture. 00:24:53.160 --> 00:24:54.240 And in a post-Christian culture, 00:24:54.340 --> 00:24:55.000 the expectation 00:24:55.000 --> 00:24:55.700 that someone's just going 00:24:55.700 --> 00:24:57.100 to walk inside your church 00:24:57.100 --> 00:24:58.800 and they've never done that 00:24:58.800 --> 00:24:59.860 before in their life. 00:25:00.440 --> 00:25:01.320 Are you insane? 00:25:01.680 --> 00:25:02.940 Especially with social anxiety 00:25:02.940 --> 00:25:03.560 the way it is. 00:25:04.200 --> 00:25:04.820 When's the last time 00:25:04.820 --> 00:25:05.960 you walked into a building 00:25:05.960 --> 00:25:07.840 that had some sort 00:25:07.840 --> 00:25:09.160 of participative element 00:25:09.160 --> 00:25:10.920 and you had never done it before? 00:25:11.040 --> 00:25:12.020 We don't do that. 00:25:12.120 --> 00:25:13.280 People don't go into spaces 00:25:13.280 --> 00:25:14.080 that they're uncomfortable in. 00:25:14.140 --> 00:25:14.480 So again, 00:25:14.760 --> 00:25:15.680 we're just using digital 00:25:15.680 --> 00:25:16.660 as an on-ramp 00:25:16.660 --> 00:25:18.320 to becoming more connected 00:25:18.320 --> 00:25:19.020 to the church. 00:25:19.480 --> 00:25:19.700 All right. 00:25:19.840 --> 00:25:20.600 So actually, 00:25:20.700 --> 00:25:21.500 one of my next questions 00:25:21.500 --> 00:25:22.680 is going to be the post-Christian 00:25:22.680 --> 00:25:23.640 because you mentioned that 00:25:23.640 --> 00:25:25.060 in the thread as well. 00:25:25.680 --> 00:25:26.480 It's interesting. 00:25:26.580 --> 00:25:27.420 When I say things like 00:25:27.420 --> 00:25:28.060 the United States 00:25:28.060 --> 00:25:29.300 is in a post-Christian environment, 00:25:29.520 --> 00:25:31.540 that's next to churches 00:25:31.540 --> 00:25:32.700 operating in virtual reality. 00:25:32.800 --> 00:25:33.440 That's probably one 00:25:33.440 --> 00:25:34.440 of the more offensive things 00:25:34.440 --> 00:25:35.300 that I tend to say 00:25:35.300 --> 00:25:36.200 just because people 00:25:36.200 --> 00:25:38.800 balk at that idea so much. 00:25:38.920 --> 00:25:41.080 But you're openly talking about that. 00:25:41.580 --> 00:25:42.800 Unpack that for me. 00:25:43.460 --> 00:25:45.040 Why do you think 00:25:45.040 --> 00:25:45.780 the United States 00:25:45.780 --> 00:25:46.780 is currently operating 00:25:46.780 --> 00:25:47.560 post-Christian? 00:25:48.520 --> 00:25:49.640 And how does that... 00:25:49.640 --> 00:25:50.540 What are other examples 00:25:50.540 --> 00:25:51.680 of how that affects your ministry? 00:25:52.180 --> 00:25:52.320 Yeah. 00:25:52.460 --> 00:25:53.580 I'll go so far to say 00:25:53.580 --> 00:25:54.280 I don't think it, 00:25:54.320 --> 00:25:54.800 I know it. 00:25:54.920 --> 00:25:56.520 So I'll offend people worse 00:25:56.520 --> 00:25:57.840 by making it a factual statement. 00:25:58.460 --> 00:25:59.320 We actually, 00:25:59.860 --> 00:26:01.020 on our digital team, 00:26:01.120 --> 00:26:01.960 funded the most 00:26:01.960 --> 00:26:03.880 expansive study 00:26:03.880 --> 00:26:04.740 of de-churching 00:26:04.740 --> 00:26:05.620 that's yet been done 00:26:05.620 --> 00:26:06.560 in the United States. 00:26:06.680 --> 00:26:07.060 There's a book 00:26:07.060 --> 00:26:07.780 that'll be coming out 00:26:07.780 --> 00:26:08.320 in a few years 00:26:08.320 --> 00:26:08.900 exploring this. 00:26:09.040 --> 00:26:09.820 But I'll give you 00:26:09.820 --> 00:26:11.580 the down low early on. 00:26:11.720 --> 00:26:12.520 So your listeners 00:26:12.520 --> 00:26:13.340 are kind of getting in 00:26:13.340 --> 00:26:14.120 on a secret here. 00:26:14.360 --> 00:26:14.560 Boom. 00:26:14.660 --> 00:26:15.780 We are going through 00:26:15.780 --> 00:26:18.060 the largest religious shift 00:26:18.060 --> 00:26:19.420 in American history, 00:26:19.660 --> 00:26:19.940 period. 00:26:20.480 --> 00:26:21.540 And for the first time 00:26:21.540 --> 00:26:22.400 in American history, 00:26:22.400 --> 00:26:23.340 it's not a move 00:26:23.340 --> 00:26:24.260 toward the church, 00:26:24.300 --> 00:26:24.900 it's a move 00:26:24.900 --> 00:26:26.040 away from the church. 00:26:26.420 --> 00:26:27.880 Something around 40% 00:26:27.880 --> 00:26:28.560 of Americans 00:26:28.560 --> 00:26:29.480 who have previously 00:26:29.480 --> 00:26:30.540 been involved with church 00:26:30.540 --> 00:26:31.720 have de-churched 00:26:31.720 --> 00:26:32.780 over the last decade. 00:26:33.140 --> 00:26:33.640 In other words, 00:26:33.700 --> 00:26:34.560 they have stopped 00:26:34.560 --> 00:26:35.500 walking with Jesus, 00:26:35.640 --> 00:26:36.120 they've stopped 00:26:36.120 --> 00:26:37.260 connecting with their faith, 00:26:37.320 --> 00:26:37.880 they aren't doing 00:26:37.880 --> 00:26:38.940 anything Christian 00:26:38.940 --> 00:26:40.080 in their lives. 00:26:40.440 --> 00:26:41.100 Add to that, 00:26:41.180 --> 00:26:41.880 that Gen Z, 00:26:42.000 --> 00:26:43.000 our youngest generation, 00:26:43.380 --> 00:26:44.560 the majority of them now, 00:26:44.660 --> 00:26:45.360 have grown up 00:26:45.360 --> 00:26:46.380 outside of church. 00:26:46.540 --> 00:26:47.380 They haven't been 00:26:47.380 --> 00:26:48.540 to a church in their life. 00:26:48.620 --> 00:26:49.200 And that's because 00:26:49.200 --> 00:26:49.760 their parents 00:26:49.760 --> 00:26:50.840 were the ones de-churching. 00:26:50.900 --> 00:26:51.920 So their parents de-churched, 00:26:51.960 --> 00:26:52.940 they didn't take them to church. 00:26:53.000 --> 00:26:54.460 So they have no church experience. 00:26:54.820 --> 00:26:55.620 So we are now 00:26:55.620 --> 00:26:56.320 hitting the point 00:26:56.320 --> 00:26:57.220 where the majority 00:26:57.220 --> 00:26:57.880 of Americans 00:26:57.880 --> 00:26:59.380 really have no connection 00:26:59.380 --> 00:27:00.020 with church. 00:27:00.460 --> 00:27:01.100 Maybe they would 00:27:01.100 --> 00:27:02.160 self-identify as Christian, 00:27:02.280 --> 00:27:02.660 but again, 00:27:02.780 --> 00:27:03.780 the rise of the nuns, 00:27:03.860 --> 00:27:04.820 N-O-N-E-S, 00:27:04.920 --> 00:27:05.820 not N-U-N-S, 00:27:06.240 --> 00:27:07.400 the rise of the nuns 00:27:07.400 --> 00:27:08.040 tells us that 00:27:08.040 --> 00:27:09.000 this number of people 00:27:09.000 --> 00:27:09.720 who don't identify 00:27:09.720 --> 00:27:10.140 as anything, 00:27:10.260 --> 00:27:11.000 they're not atheists, 00:27:11.080 --> 00:27:11.720 they're not Christian, 00:27:11.820 --> 00:27:12.420 they're not Buddhist, 00:27:12.800 --> 00:27:13.980 it is the fastest 00:27:13.980 --> 00:27:15.140 growing demographic 00:27:15.140 --> 00:27:16.200 in America. 00:27:16.600 --> 00:27:17.480 And so by every 00:27:17.480 --> 00:27:18.700 statistical measure, 00:27:18.900 --> 00:27:19.880 Christianity is 00:27:19.880 --> 00:27:20.980 vastly shrinking. 00:27:21.200 --> 00:27:21.540 And again, 00:27:21.620 --> 00:27:22.380 this is the largest 00:27:22.380 --> 00:27:23.160 religious shift 00:27:23.160 --> 00:27:24.220 in American history. 00:27:24.320 --> 00:27:24.920 So when I say 00:27:24.920 --> 00:27:25.560 that this is a 00:27:25.560 --> 00:27:26.560 post-Christian culture, 00:27:26.560 --> 00:27:27.580 I'm talking about 00:27:27.580 --> 00:27:29.520 sociological fact, 00:27:29.680 --> 00:27:30.820 not my opinion 00:27:30.820 --> 00:27:31.840 of where we're at 00:27:31.840 --> 00:27:32.380 as a culture. 00:27:32.480 --> 00:27:32.580 I mean, 00:27:32.580 --> 00:27:33.120 you have a whole 00:27:33.120 --> 00:27:34.000 different conversation 00:27:34.000 --> 00:27:35.540 about how cultural mores 00:27:35.540 --> 00:27:37.040 around sex 00:27:37.040 --> 00:27:38.000 and sexuality 00:27:38.000 --> 00:27:38.840 and gender. 00:27:38.880 --> 00:27:39.000 I mean, 00:27:39.020 --> 00:27:40.140 there's so many other areas 00:27:40.140 --> 00:27:40.800 that we could get into 00:27:40.800 --> 00:27:41.100 to say, 00:27:41.200 --> 00:27:41.360 see, 00:27:41.480 --> 00:27:42.660 we're moving away 00:27:42.660 --> 00:27:43.120 from kind of 00:27:43.120 --> 00:27:43.660 a traditional 00:27:43.660 --> 00:27:44.600 Christian way 00:27:44.600 --> 00:27:45.320 of seeing the world. 00:27:45.760 --> 00:27:45.900 Now, 00:27:45.980 --> 00:27:47.120 I'm not necessarily 00:27:47.120 --> 00:27:47.900 mourning that. 00:27:48.260 --> 00:27:48.960 It's not as though 00:27:48.960 --> 00:27:49.980 there's been a golden age 00:27:49.980 --> 00:27:50.380 in America 00:27:50.380 --> 00:27:51.640 where everybody was Christian 00:27:51.640 --> 00:27:52.260 and everything was right. 00:27:52.360 --> 00:27:52.900 People look back 00:27:52.900 --> 00:27:53.400 at the 50s, 00:27:53.440 --> 00:27:53.560 oh, 00:27:53.600 --> 00:27:54.100 that was great. 00:27:54.140 --> 00:27:54.320 I'm like, 00:27:54.360 --> 00:27:54.460 well, 00:27:54.480 --> 00:27:54.800 it's great 00:27:54.800 --> 00:27:55.120 if you weren't 00:27:55.120 --> 00:27:55.860 a black person. 00:27:56.280 --> 00:27:56.500 I mean, 00:27:56.620 --> 00:27:57.580 there's never been 00:27:57.580 --> 00:27:58.700 a great time 00:27:58.700 --> 00:27:59.380 in American history 00:27:59.380 --> 00:28:00.620 to just be a Christian. 00:28:01.320 --> 00:28:02.520 But because people 00:28:02.520 --> 00:28:03.320 aren't used to being 00:28:03.320 --> 00:28:03.680 in church, 00:28:03.740 --> 00:28:04.560 it has to change 00:28:04.560 --> 00:28:05.580 how we engage them. 00:28:06.080 --> 00:28:07.080 We aren't dealing with, 00:28:07.140 --> 00:28:08.180 this is not Billy Graham 00:28:08.180 --> 00:28:09.000 doing a crusade 00:28:09.000 --> 00:28:09.620 to a bunch of people 00:28:09.620 --> 00:28:10.280 who've been in church 00:28:10.280 --> 00:28:10.820 their whole life. 00:28:10.900 --> 00:28:11.360 We are living 00:28:11.360 --> 00:28:12.340 in a different moment. 00:28:12.940 --> 00:28:14.920 So is your response 00:28:14.920 --> 00:28:17.040 then empower individuals 00:28:17.040 --> 00:28:18.140 and lean more 00:28:18.140 --> 00:28:18.920 on individual 00:28:18.920 --> 00:28:20.320 personal evangelism? 00:28:20.960 --> 00:28:22.100 Is your response 00:28:22.100 --> 00:28:23.620 moving outside of the, 00:28:23.700 --> 00:28:24.640 because you're a physical church, 00:28:24.740 --> 00:28:25.220 moving outside 00:28:25.220 --> 00:28:26.360 the physical church walls 00:28:26.360 --> 00:28:27.060 and moving more 00:28:27.060 --> 00:28:28.940 towards a community pastor 00:28:28.940 --> 00:28:30.340 instead of a campus pastor? 00:28:30.800 --> 00:28:31.120 Like, 00:28:31.180 --> 00:28:32.100 I don't disagree 00:28:32.100 --> 00:28:33.180 with the words 00:28:33.180 --> 00:28:33.880 that you're saying. 00:28:34.140 --> 00:28:35.080 And it's interesting. 00:28:35.240 --> 00:28:37.300 I just read a stat, 00:28:37.420 --> 00:28:38.620 something out of England. 00:28:39.080 --> 00:28:39.300 You know, 00:28:39.340 --> 00:28:40.320 we're doing this recording 00:28:40.320 --> 00:28:41.800 in December in England, 00:28:41.920 --> 00:28:42.960 which is a post-Christian 00:28:42.960 --> 00:28:43.460 environment. 00:28:43.940 --> 00:28:45.180 There are more people 00:28:45.180 --> 00:28:46.720 that are going to pubs 00:28:46.720 --> 00:28:48.100 for Christmas Eve 00:28:48.100 --> 00:28:48.960 than are going to 00:28:48.960 --> 00:28:49.720 a Christmas Eve 00:28:49.720 --> 00:28:50.460 church service. 00:28:51.000 --> 00:28:52.800 So we're seeing 00:28:52.800 --> 00:28:53.920 what life looks like 00:28:53.920 --> 00:28:54.960 in post-Christian environments. 00:28:55.120 --> 00:28:55.580 We're seeing, 00:28:56.040 --> 00:28:56.460 hey, you know what? 00:28:56.480 --> 00:28:57.680 We're not that far away 00:28:57.680 --> 00:28:59.140 here in America. 00:28:59.620 --> 00:29:00.100 Maybe what's 00:29:00.100 --> 00:29:01.260 some practical pivots 00:29:01.260 --> 00:29:02.080 or things that you're 00:29:02.080 --> 00:29:02.780 wrestling with 00:29:02.780 --> 00:29:03.840 on doing ministry 00:29:03.840 --> 00:29:04.560 and post-Christian. 00:29:04.980 --> 00:29:05.340 Yeah, I mean, 00:29:05.420 --> 00:29:06.380 again, I think the answer 00:29:06.380 --> 00:29:07.320 is going to be holistic. 00:29:07.660 --> 00:29:08.620 I think what you just said 00:29:08.620 --> 00:29:09.420 that we're going to need 00:29:09.420 --> 00:29:10.280 community 00:29:10.280 --> 00:29:11.920 and we're going to need 00:29:11.920 --> 00:29:13.520 one-to-one evangelism 00:29:13.520 --> 00:29:15.780 is a key critical factor 00:29:15.780 --> 00:29:16.780 in the conversation. 00:29:17.080 --> 00:29:18.720 But I think moving beyond 00:29:18.720 --> 00:29:20.000 just community, 00:29:20.480 --> 00:29:21.800 there's a place for digital. 00:29:22.140 --> 00:29:23.140 And that's the topic 00:29:23.140 --> 00:29:24.100 that we're talking about. 00:29:24.120 --> 00:29:24.760 So I want to sit there 00:29:24.760 --> 00:29:25.060 for a second. 00:29:25.180 --> 00:29:25.920 Here's what's interesting 00:29:25.920 --> 00:29:27.240 about those de-churched people. 00:29:27.740 --> 00:29:28.920 The vast majority of them 00:29:28.920 --> 00:29:30.220 did not leave angry. 00:29:30.900 --> 00:29:31.600 They didn't leave 00:29:31.600 --> 00:29:32.340 because they stopped 00:29:32.340 --> 00:29:33.420 believing something. 00:29:33.840 --> 00:29:35.100 They just stopped. 00:29:35.200 --> 00:29:36.920 They just stopped showing up. 00:29:36.920 --> 00:29:38.480 And the vast majority of them 00:29:38.480 --> 00:29:39.600 are open to coming back 00:29:39.600 --> 00:29:40.060 to church. 00:29:40.720 --> 00:29:41.580 They're very open. 00:29:41.680 --> 00:29:42.660 They just need an invitation. 00:29:43.440 --> 00:29:44.200 And I think this is where 00:29:44.200 --> 00:29:45.500 both the one-to-one... 00:29:45.500 --> 00:29:46.380 And there's different scales 00:29:46.380 --> 00:29:46.680 of this. 00:29:46.780 --> 00:29:47.360 There's some people 00:29:47.360 --> 00:29:47.740 it's going to take 00:29:47.740 --> 00:29:48.760 a lot of relationship 00:29:48.760 --> 00:29:49.640 before they will ever 00:29:49.640 --> 00:29:50.500 step into a church. 00:29:50.820 --> 00:29:51.780 There's also a different 00:29:51.780 --> 00:29:52.580 subset of people 00:29:52.580 --> 00:29:53.660 that it's not going to take 00:29:53.660 --> 00:29:54.300 a lot of relationship. 00:29:54.440 --> 00:29:55.520 They just need an invitation. 00:29:56.080 --> 00:29:56.540 And to me, 00:29:56.660 --> 00:29:57.360 digital content 00:29:57.360 --> 00:29:58.840 is one of the best ways 00:29:58.840 --> 00:29:59.640 to invite people 00:29:59.640 --> 00:30:00.240 on two levels. 00:30:00.380 --> 00:30:00.640 One, 00:30:00.960 --> 00:30:01.560 if you're listening 00:30:01.560 --> 00:30:02.400 to digital content 00:30:02.400 --> 00:30:02.860 and there's someone 00:30:02.860 --> 00:30:03.520 you want to have 00:30:03.520 --> 00:30:04.020 come be a part 00:30:04.020 --> 00:30:04.500 of your church, 00:30:04.780 --> 00:30:05.560 it's a lot easier 00:30:05.560 --> 00:30:06.480 to send them a podcast 00:30:06.480 --> 00:30:07.280 or a video and say, 00:30:07.400 --> 00:30:08.400 Hey, this made me think of you. 00:30:08.440 --> 00:30:09.040 I'd love to talk 00:30:09.040 --> 00:30:09.780 with you about it 00:30:09.780 --> 00:30:10.520 than it is to say, 00:30:10.620 --> 00:30:11.560 Hey, come with me 00:30:11.560 --> 00:30:12.660 on Sunday morning to church. 00:30:13.100 --> 00:30:13.700 But number two, 00:30:14.040 --> 00:30:14.800 using marketing 00:30:14.800 --> 00:30:17.000 and essentially 00:30:17.000 --> 00:30:18.280 target audiences 00:30:18.280 --> 00:30:19.420 on Meta's platform 00:30:19.420 --> 00:30:20.480 and Google's platform, 00:30:20.720 --> 00:30:21.840 we've gotten rather good 00:30:21.840 --> 00:30:22.980 at targeting people 00:30:22.980 --> 00:30:23.940 who aren't in church. 00:30:24.360 --> 00:30:25.260 And all we have to do 00:30:25.260 --> 00:30:25.800 is give them... 00:30:25.800 --> 00:30:26.840 We've used email marketing 00:30:26.840 --> 00:30:27.900 to do this as well. 00:30:28.220 --> 00:30:29.000 But we just have to give them 00:30:29.000 --> 00:30:29.860 a little bit of content 00:30:29.860 --> 00:30:31.140 that helps them warm up 00:30:31.140 --> 00:30:32.160 to us to where 00:30:32.160 --> 00:30:32.920 they're not even coming 00:30:32.920 --> 00:30:33.380 to our church, 00:30:33.460 --> 00:30:34.280 but they begin to think 00:30:34.280 --> 00:30:34.900 about us as, 00:30:35.000 --> 00:30:35.500 Hey, this is someone 00:30:35.500 --> 00:30:36.580 who's adding to my life 00:30:36.580 --> 00:30:37.100 spiritually. 00:30:37.100 --> 00:30:37.700 This is someone 00:30:37.700 --> 00:30:38.800 who is kind of pastoring 00:30:38.800 --> 00:30:39.400 me right now. 00:30:39.660 --> 00:30:40.360 And that becomes 00:30:40.360 --> 00:30:41.460 the on-ramp down the road. 00:30:41.540 --> 00:30:42.400 Maybe it's a year later 00:30:42.400 --> 00:30:43.420 or two years later 00:30:43.420 --> 00:30:44.060 that they come. 00:30:44.400 --> 00:30:44.740 In fact, 00:30:44.820 --> 00:30:45.940 using our email marketing, 00:30:46.320 --> 00:30:47.000 what we've discovered 00:30:47.000 --> 00:30:48.280 is about 10% 00:30:48.280 --> 00:30:49.380 of the new contacts 00:30:49.380 --> 00:30:50.100 that we gather 00:30:50.100 --> 00:30:51.400 will show up in person 00:30:51.400 --> 00:30:52.240 in the next year. 00:30:52.760 --> 00:30:53.560 And so if we can gather 00:30:53.560 --> 00:30:54.360 1,000 contacts, 00:30:54.480 --> 00:30:55.140 that's 100 people. 00:30:55.260 --> 00:30:55.720 This year, 00:30:56.080 --> 00:30:56.600 we're going to gather 00:30:56.600 --> 00:30:57.740 around 9,000 contacts. 00:30:57.940 --> 00:30:59.480 That's about 900 new people 00:30:59.480 --> 00:31:00.400 that are in our church. 00:31:00.800 --> 00:31:02.280 And it's not anything fancy. 00:31:02.440 --> 00:31:03.160 We were just offering 00:31:03.160 --> 00:31:03.920 them devotions. 00:31:04.000 --> 00:31:04.320 We're just saying, 00:31:04.420 --> 00:31:05.240 Hey, come back to God. 00:31:05.300 --> 00:31:06.000 Don't you miss this? 00:31:06.060 --> 00:31:06.800 Wasn't your life better 00:31:06.800 --> 00:31:07.480 when you're with Jesus? 00:31:07.840 --> 00:31:08.840 Here's something really simple 00:31:08.840 --> 00:31:09.580 and easy for you 00:31:09.580 --> 00:31:10.600 to do, 00:31:10.700 --> 00:31:11.780 to reconnect with God. 00:31:12.060 --> 00:31:12.500 And again, 00:31:12.640 --> 00:31:13.920 that eventually leads them 00:31:13.920 --> 00:31:15.540 to walking inside those doors. 00:31:16.240 --> 00:31:16.380 Yeah. 00:31:16.500 --> 00:31:16.860 And it's something, 00:31:17.060 --> 00:31:17.300 I mean, 00:31:17.300 --> 00:31:18.680 that's a low-tech solution, 00:31:18.780 --> 00:31:18.940 right? 00:31:18.980 --> 00:31:19.140 I mean, 00:31:19.140 --> 00:31:20.000 you're emailing 00:31:20.000 --> 00:31:22.260 a daily devotional 00:31:22.260 --> 00:31:23.360 through MailChimp 00:31:23.360 --> 00:31:23.840 or something. 00:31:24.020 --> 00:31:25.540 This isn't TikTok. 00:31:25.860 --> 00:31:27.100 This isn't something crazy. 00:31:27.220 --> 00:31:27.700 It's email. 00:31:28.520 --> 00:31:29.700 And that's interesting. 00:31:29.840 --> 00:31:30.420 10%, 00:31:30.420 --> 00:31:31.760 which is a low number, 00:31:32.060 --> 00:31:32.320 maybe, 00:31:32.640 --> 00:31:34.180 but like you said, 00:31:34.420 --> 00:31:36.320 9,000 to get to 900, 00:31:36.580 --> 00:31:38.880 that's a significant footprint 00:31:38.880 --> 00:31:40.360 that you're able to move. 00:31:40.780 --> 00:31:41.900 You know what I love, Patrick? 00:31:42.020 --> 00:31:43.520 I love that you've got the stats 00:31:43.520 --> 00:31:44.380 that are backing up 00:31:44.380 --> 00:31:45.520 what you're doing. 00:31:45.520 --> 00:31:47.740 So many times 00:31:47.740 --> 00:31:48.740 we have these conversations 00:31:48.740 --> 00:31:50.820 like there's, 00:31:50.920 --> 00:31:52.460 what is it? 00:31:52.780 --> 00:31:54.800 There's qualitative 00:31:54.800 --> 00:31:55.680 but not quantitative. 00:31:56.040 --> 00:31:57.140 We can tell the stories, 00:31:57.340 --> 00:31:58.380 but we don't actually have 00:31:58.380 --> 00:31:59.040 the numbers 00:31:59.040 --> 00:32:00.340 that are matching it up. 00:32:00.480 --> 00:32:01.360 And you've got 00:32:01.360 --> 00:32:02.460 the numbers 00:32:02.460 --> 00:32:03.700 that are doing that. 00:32:04.560 --> 00:32:05.540 All this has been 00:32:05.540 --> 00:32:06.160 within your, 00:32:06.260 --> 00:32:06.780 like you said, 00:32:06.860 --> 00:32:07.660 2018, 00:32:07.880 --> 00:32:08.500 2019, 00:32:08.880 --> 00:32:09.740 so three, 00:32:09.880 --> 00:32:10.040 four, 00:32:10.160 --> 00:32:10.720 five years. 00:32:10.820 --> 00:32:11.680 That's how long you guys 00:32:11.680 --> 00:32:12.540 have been pushing digital 00:32:12.540 --> 00:32:13.000 where you are? 00:32:13.000 --> 00:32:14.900 Yeah, so I started 00:32:14.900 --> 00:32:16.060 in college ministry, 00:32:16.200 --> 00:32:16.760 then transitioned 00:32:16.760 --> 00:32:18.120 to leading a 20s ministry 00:32:18.120 --> 00:32:19.500 that was primarily focused 00:32:19.500 --> 00:32:20.380 on getting people 00:32:20.380 --> 00:32:20.940 in their 20s 00:32:20.940 --> 00:32:21.580 into small groups. 00:32:21.720 --> 00:32:22.580 And that had about 00:32:22.580 --> 00:32:23.720 500 people involved. 00:32:23.800 --> 00:32:24.500 It was doing well, 00:32:24.600 --> 00:32:25.420 but obviously I wanted 00:32:25.420 --> 00:32:26.360 to reach more people. 00:32:26.760 --> 00:32:27.220 And this is probably 00:32:27.220 --> 00:32:28.340 2017, 2018. 00:32:28.680 --> 00:32:29.740 And so I'm just thinking 00:32:29.740 --> 00:32:31.060 about millennials at the time 00:32:31.060 --> 00:32:32.260 and how do you reach millennials? 00:32:32.420 --> 00:32:33.340 And the answer is obvious. 00:32:33.380 --> 00:32:34.560 We need to reach them online. 00:32:35.000 --> 00:32:35.880 And so just as a part 00:32:35.880 --> 00:32:36.540 of that ministry, 00:32:36.540 --> 00:32:37.560 I started doing 00:32:37.560 --> 00:32:38.840 more online ministry 00:32:38.840 --> 00:32:40.140 and more online content. 00:32:40.140 --> 00:32:40.820 Like I said, 00:32:40.900 --> 00:32:42.080 we launched our first podcast 00:32:42.080 --> 00:32:43.440 in October of 2019, 00:32:43.700 --> 00:32:44.760 so not that long ago. 00:32:45.140 --> 00:32:45.920 Around that time, 00:32:45.960 --> 00:32:46.920 we made our first hire 00:32:46.920 --> 00:32:48.500 kind of in the digital space. 00:32:48.620 --> 00:32:49.000 Now, again, 00:32:49.120 --> 00:32:50.220 COVID really changed 00:32:50.220 --> 00:32:51.080 everything for us 00:32:51.080 --> 00:32:52.880 because a lot of our jobs 00:32:52.880 --> 00:32:54.220 disappeared all of a sudden 00:32:54.220 --> 00:32:55.200 while people were 00:32:55.200 --> 00:32:55.680 kind of living 00:32:55.680 --> 00:32:56.340 through the pandemic. 00:32:56.500 --> 00:32:56.980 There was no more 00:32:56.980 --> 00:32:57.720 in-person church. 00:32:58.220 --> 00:32:59.120 And when in-person church 00:32:59.120 --> 00:32:59.880 started back up, 00:32:59.960 --> 00:33:00.280 the church, 00:33:00.420 --> 00:33:01.080 because we're agile, 00:33:01.240 --> 00:33:01.420 said, 00:33:01.640 --> 00:33:02.240 hey, we're actually 00:33:02.240 --> 00:33:03.140 going to keep you guys 00:33:03.140 --> 00:33:04.100 on this digital stuff 00:33:04.100 --> 00:33:05.720 because this is changing lives 00:33:05.720 --> 00:33:06.640 and it's drawing people 00:33:06.640 --> 00:33:07.140 to Jesus. 00:33:07.420 --> 00:33:07.900 And we're not going 00:33:07.900 --> 00:33:08.540 to pull you out 00:33:08.540 --> 00:33:09.240 and make you go back 00:33:09.240 --> 00:33:10.240 to what you were doing before. 00:33:10.580 --> 00:33:10.860 Now, again, 00:33:10.940 --> 00:33:11.760 that's a cost. 00:33:11.840 --> 00:33:12.420 That's an investment. 00:33:12.580 --> 00:33:13.480 And we're a large church, 00:33:13.520 --> 00:33:14.880 so we have a little more freedom 00:33:14.880 --> 00:33:15.900 to make those kinds 00:33:15.900 --> 00:33:16.460 of decisions. 00:33:17.260 --> 00:33:18.720 But that's how it developed. 00:33:18.840 --> 00:33:19.780 It was just slowly 00:33:19.780 --> 00:33:20.540 over years 00:33:20.540 --> 00:33:21.800 trying strategies. 00:33:21.920 --> 00:33:22.580 And like you just said, 00:33:22.660 --> 00:33:23.720 we're very quantitative. 00:33:24.260 --> 00:33:25.080 We don't do things 00:33:25.080 --> 00:33:26.340 that are ineffective. 00:33:26.780 --> 00:33:28.040 So we've tried 00:33:28.040 --> 00:33:28.680 lots of ways 00:33:28.680 --> 00:33:29.920 of gathering content online. 00:33:30.080 --> 00:33:30.820 We just realized 00:33:30.820 --> 00:33:31.840 that email devotionals 00:33:31.840 --> 00:33:33.260 are by far the best one. 00:33:33.500 --> 00:33:34.640 They're really easy to do. 00:33:34.760 --> 00:33:35.180 There's nothing 00:33:35.180 --> 00:33:36.400 complicated about it. 00:33:36.400 --> 00:33:37.180 And we tried 00:33:37.180 --> 00:33:38.260 lots of complicated things. 00:33:38.400 --> 00:33:39.140 They didn't work. 00:33:39.600 --> 00:33:40.860 So we did the thing 00:33:40.860 --> 00:33:41.260 that works. 00:33:41.440 --> 00:33:42.380 And isn't it great news 00:33:42.380 --> 00:33:43.000 that it's easy? 00:33:43.320 --> 00:33:43.920 And podcasting 00:33:43.920 --> 00:33:44.420 is really similar. 00:33:44.560 --> 00:33:45.200 People want to start 00:33:45.200 --> 00:33:46.040 a YouTube channel 00:33:46.040 --> 00:33:47.400 or do some video thing, 00:33:47.440 --> 00:33:47.660 but they have 00:33:47.660 --> 00:33:48.840 no videography experience. 00:33:48.920 --> 00:33:49.200 I'm like, 00:33:49.660 --> 00:33:50.620 why would you do that? 00:33:50.700 --> 00:33:51.440 You can just get behind 00:33:51.440 --> 00:33:52.120 a mic and no one 00:33:52.120 --> 00:33:52.800 has to see you. 00:33:52.880 --> 00:33:53.640 And you could reach 00:33:53.640 --> 00:33:54.420 thousands, 00:33:54.640 --> 00:33:55.460 tens of thousands, 00:33:55.600 --> 00:33:56.420 depending on your podcast, 00:33:56.640 --> 00:33:58.040 people with your content 00:33:58.040 --> 00:33:58.880 and help them 00:33:58.880 --> 00:34:00.060 draw closer to God. 00:34:00.400 --> 00:34:00.960 That's fascinating. 00:34:01.260 --> 00:34:02.260 How do you know, 00:34:02.660 --> 00:34:03.860 as you've been developing 00:34:03.860 --> 00:34:04.920 all this stuff 00:34:04.920 --> 00:34:07.360 and developing the strategies, 00:34:07.620 --> 00:34:08.580 working the analytics, 00:34:08.840 --> 00:34:09.560 the measurements, 00:34:10.280 --> 00:34:12.020 trying different things, 00:34:12.180 --> 00:34:13.480 exploring different areas, 00:34:14.040 --> 00:34:14.860 how do you know 00:34:14.860 --> 00:34:15.720 if something's a win? 00:34:15.880 --> 00:34:16.060 Like, 00:34:16.160 --> 00:34:17.760 what are you looking for? 00:34:17.840 --> 00:34:18.220 How do you know 00:34:18.220 --> 00:34:18.880 if it's succeeding? 00:34:19.620 --> 00:34:20.720 Maybe what's an example 00:34:20.720 --> 00:34:21.540 of a failure, 00:34:21.680 --> 00:34:22.620 something you tried 00:34:22.620 --> 00:34:23.860 and it didn't work? 00:34:24.280 --> 00:34:24.980 At what point 00:34:24.980 --> 00:34:26.080 did you pull the plug on it? 00:34:26.120 --> 00:34:27.040 Talk about some of these 00:34:27.040 --> 00:34:28.020 successes and failures. 00:34:28.040 --> 00:34:30.240 with the processes you got. 00:34:30.620 --> 00:34:30.740 Yeah. 00:34:30.820 --> 00:34:31.020 So, 00:34:31.100 --> 00:34:31.380 you know, 00:34:31.440 --> 00:34:32.320 this has a lot to do 00:34:32.320 --> 00:34:33.540 with our digital team. 00:34:33.860 --> 00:34:35.040 We set what are called 00:34:35.040 --> 00:34:35.800 lag measures 00:34:35.800 --> 00:34:36.640 and lead measures. 00:34:36.760 --> 00:34:36.880 So, 00:34:36.940 --> 00:34:37.760 lag measures are kind of 00:34:37.760 --> 00:34:38.820 your long-term goals. 00:34:39.240 --> 00:34:39.900 We want to have 00:34:39.900 --> 00:34:41.580 X hundred thousand downloads, 00:34:41.680 --> 00:34:41.900 right? 00:34:42.160 --> 00:34:43.140 That's our long-term goal. 00:34:43.280 --> 00:34:44.100 Lead measures are 00:34:44.100 --> 00:34:45.520 more immediate term goals 00:34:45.520 --> 00:34:46.820 that hopefully affect 00:34:46.820 --> 00:34:47.580 the lag measure 00:34:47.580 --> 00:34:48.240 in the long-term. 00:34:48.740 --> 00:34:49.020 And so, 00:34:49.220 --> 00:34:49.960 we run usually 00:34:49.960 --> 00:34:51.040 six-week campaigns. 00:34:51.160 --> 00:34:51.500 These are little 00:34:51.500 --> 00:34:52.320 six-week chunks 00:34:52.320 --> 00:34:53.980 where we'll focus on a theme, 00:34:54.060 --> 00:34:55.200 we'll have a particular target 00:34:55.200 --> 00:34:56.240 that we're trying to reach 00:34:56.240 --> 00:34:57.080 and we'll have 00:34:57.080 --> 00:34:58.000 a short-term goal 00:34:58.040 --> 00:34:59.360 that we're trying to reach 00:34:59.360 --> 00:34:59.960 during that period. 00:35:00.060 --> 00:35:00.420 For example, 00:35:00.500 --> 00:35:01.140 we might say, 00:35:01.440 --> 00:35:01.760 right now, 00:35:01.820 --> 00:35:02.700 we're in the Christmas season. 00:35:02.880 --> 00:35:03.140 And so, 00:35:03.240 --> 00:35:04.580 our goal is to get 00:35:04.580 --> 00:35:05.440 3,000 people 00:35:05.440 --> 00:35:05.960 to subscribe 00:35:05.960 --> 00:35:07.380 to new contacts. 00:35:07.540 --> 00:35:07.760 So, 00:35:07.820 --> 00:35:08.200 not total, 00:35:08.260 --> 00:35:09.160 just new contacts 00:35:09.160 --> 00:35:09.680 to subscribe 00:35:09.680 --> 00:35:11.300 to our Christmas newsletter, 00:35:11.460 --> 00:35:11.700 right? 00:35:11.820 --> 00:35:12.180 So, 00:35:12.240 --> 00:35:12.920 that would be the goal. 00:35:13.280 --> 00:35:13.560 And then, 00:35:13.680 --> 00:35:15.300 we create content, 00:35:15.620 --> 00:35:17.060 whether that's advertising content 00:35:17.060 --> 00:35:17.880 or blogs 00:35:17.880 --> 00:35:18.780 that point to 00:35:18.780 --> 00:35:20.040 the devotional. 00:35:20.120 --> 00:35:20.840 We create content 00:35:20.840 --> 00:35:21.680 that points people 00:35:21.680 --> 00:35:22.660 in that direction 00:35:22.660 --> 00:35:23.780 so that they will sign up 00:35:23.780 --> 00:35:25.320 for the Christmas devotional. 00:35:25.320 --> 00:35:26.620 And that's how we evaluate, 00:35:26.820 --> 00:35:27.540 did something work 00:35:27.540 --> 00:35:28.860 or did something not work, 00:35:28.900 --> 00:35:29.100 right? 00:35:29.200 --> 00:35:30.320 If we don't hit the goal 00:35:30.320 --> 00:35:31.420 or the target that we met, 00:35:31.460 --> 00:35:32.140 we can go back 00:35:32.140 --> 00:35:32.640 and evaluate, 00:35:32.800 --> 00:35:33.860 why didn't we hit it? 00:35:34.060 --> 00:35:34.880 Was this our fault 00:35:34.880 --> 00:35:36.200 or was this just a bad idea 00:35:36.200 --> 00:35:36.800 to start with? 00:35:37.020 --> 00:35:38.080 One great example of this 00:35:38.080 --> 00:35:38.380 for me, 00:35:38.440 --> 00:35:39.180 you said failures. 00:35:40.220 --> 00:35:41.900 In the inbound marketing world, 00:35:41.980 --> 00:35:42.800 there's the idea 00:35:42.800 --> 00:35:43.580 of gated content. 00:35:43.720 --> 00:35:45.000 This will be like PDFs 00:35:45.000 --> 00:35:45.720 that are behind 00:35:45.720 --> 00:35:47.600 paywalls. 00:35:47.680 --> 00:35:48.740 Not literal paywalls. 00:35:48.740 --> 00:35:49.340 You're not paying money. 00:35:49.440 --> 00:35:50.500 You give your email contact 00:35:50.500 --> 00:35:51.080 and you get 00:35:51.080 --> 00:35:53.260 this three-page document 00:35:53.260 --> 00:35:54.100 on how to pray 00:35:54.100 --> 00:35:54.860 the Lord's Prayer. 00:35:55.860 --> 00:35:56.960 What we've discovered 00:35:56.960 --> 00:35:58.460 is that the vast majority 00:35:58.460 --> 00:35:59.580 of gated content, 00:35:59.740 --> 00:36:00.780 free gated content, 00:36:00.980 --> 00:36:01.960 doesn't actually 00:36:01.960 --> 00:36:02.880 generate contacts. 00:36:03.380 --> 00:36:03.960 And you can spend 00:36:03.960 --> 00:36:04.820 a lot of work 00:36:04.820 --> 00:36:06.080 creating these documents 00:36:06.080 --> 00:36:07.220 and literally 00:36:07.220 --> 00:36:08.380 no one will use it. 00:36:09.860 --> 00:36:11.280 And we had to discover that 00:36:11.280 --> 00:36:12.640 by repeatedly trying 00:36:12.640 --> 00:36:13.420 different ideas, 00:36:13.560 --> 00:36:14.020 different forms 00:36:14.020 --> 00:36:14.660 of gated content. 00:36:14.820 --> 00:36:15.400 We did things for 00:36:15.400 --> 00:36:16.560 parents and children. 00:36:16.820 --> 00:36:17.580 We did things for 00:36:17.580 --> 00:36:18.520 about every demographic 00:36:18.520 --> 00:36:19.200 you can imagine. 00:36:19.380 --> 00:36:20.100 And we just realized 00:36:20.100 --> 00:36:21.240 no one was interested. 00:36:21.460 --> 00:36:22.300 No one wanted to sign up 00:36:22.300 --> 00:36:22.500 for this. 00:36:22.540 --> 00:36:23.200 And the people who did 00:36:23.200 --> 00:36:23.840 sign up for it 00:36:23.840 --> 00:36:24.860 were people who were 00:36:24.860 --> 00:36:25.720 already consuming 00:36:25.720 --> 00:36:27.000 everything else that we did. 00:36:27.060 --> 00:36:27.760 So we weren't reaching 00:36:27.760 --> 00:36:28.960 new people with it. 00:36:30.160 --> 00:36:30.820 So again, 00:36:30.940 --> 00:36:32.440 that's just how we've evaluated. 00:36:32.700 --> 00:36:33.440 And my point here, 00:36:33.480 --> 00:36:33.760 by the way, 00:36:33.760 --> 00:36:34.340 is not to say that 00:36:34.340 --> 00:36:35.220 gated content is bad. 00:36:35.280 --> 00:36:36.040 I'm saying our team 00:36:36.040 --> 00:36:36.980 doesn't know how to do it. 00:36:37.180 --> 00:36:37.720 So we're not going 00:36:37.720 --> 00:36:38.380 to try to do it. 00:36:38.380 --> 00:36:38.760 We tried. 00:36:38.880 --> 00:36:39.640 We couldn't do it, right? 00:36:39.860 --> 00:36:40.980 Your team might be great 00:36:40.980 --> 00:36:41.680 at gated content 00:36:41.680 --> 00:36:42.400 and you might be able 00:36:42.400 --> 00:36:43.400 to make some amazing stuff. 00:36:43.520 --> 00:36:43.780 Awesome. 00:36:43.920 --> 00:36:44.460 Good for you. 00:36:44.960 --> 00:36:46.100 But you have to evaluate 00:36:46.100 --> 00:36:47.160 what your skills are 00:36:47.160 --> 00:36:48.400 and where you can be successful. 00:36:48.580 --> 00:36:49.500 And the only way to do that 00:36:49.500 --> 00:36:50.860 is by setting goals, 00:36:51.460 --> 00:36:52.360 measuring success throughout, 00:36:52.680 --> 00:36:53.740 evaluating why you did 00:36:53.740 --> 00:36:54.780 or didn't reach that goal, 00:36:55.160 --> 00:36:56.460 and making sure those goals 00:36:56.460 --> 00:36:58.100 are towards your long-term ends 00:36:58.100 --> 00:36:59.200 of what you want to accomplish 00:36:59.200 --> 00:36:59.820 as an industry. 00:37:00.180 --> 00:37:00.780 This is beautiful. 00:37:00.940 --> 00:37:01.720 This is so good. 00:37:02.060 --> 00:37:02.480 By the way, 00:37:02.480 --> 00:37:03.760 gated content works for us. 00:37:04.020 --> 00:37:05.020 So once again, 00:37:05.160 --> 00:37:06.540 it's not the technique. 00:37:06.960 --> 00:37:09.060 There's plenty of other stuff 00:37:09.060 --> 00:37:10.180 that doesn't work for us. 00:37:10.240 --> 00:37:11.560 But we've had some success 00:37:11.560 --> 00:37:14.140 with the gated content piece. 00:37:14.560 --> 00:37:16.760 Where are you going in 2023? 00:37:17.240 --> 00:37:19.200 As you're looking at the future, 00:37:19.400 --> 00:37:20.240 where you're going, 00:37:20.520 --> 00:37:21.740 is it more of the same? 00:37:21.900 --> 00:37:23.640 Is it adding new shows, 00:37:23.740 --> 00:37:24.340 new content? 00:37:24.660 --> 00:37:26.720 Is there a radical shift? 00:37:26.980 --> 00:37:29.000 What's the future look like for you? 00:37:29.160 --> 00:37:30.320 Well, that's a great question. 00:37:31.360 --> 00:37:32.520 We've kind of started 00:37:32.520 --> 00:37:33.840 an internal organization 00:37:33.840 --> 00:37:34.720 called Endeavor, 00:37:34.940 --> 00:37:36.760 which is not so much 00:37:36.760 --> 00:37:38.460 about helping people 00:37:38.460 --> 00:37:39.920 inside of our local church 00:37:39.920 --> 00:37:40.820 create content. 00:37:40.980 --> 00:37:42.440 It's about identifying 00:37:42.440 --> 00:37:43.720 great content creators 00:37:43.720 --> 00:37:45.700 outside of our church 00:37:45.700 --> 00:37:47.060 and equipping them 00:37:47.060 --> 00:37:48.660 to reach wider audiences. 00:37:49.300 --> 00:37:51.280 I call it the anti-celebrity model 00:37:51.280 --> 00:37:53.200 because our goal 00:37:53.200 --> 00:37:54.320 is actually not to make 00:37:54.320 --> 00:37:55.440 a bunch of famous people. 00:37:55.700 --> 00:37:56.540 Our goal is to make 00:37:56.540 --> 00:37:57.160 what I call 00:37:57.160 --> 00:37:59.060 middle-class creators. 00:37:59.600 --> 00:38:00.580 People who have 00:38:00.580 --> 00:38:01.640 a following of maybe 00:38:01.640 --> 00:38:03.400 5,000 to 10,000 people. 00:38:03.560 --> 00:38:04.800 Now, why I say that number 00:38:04.800 --> 00:38:05.940 is because I find that 00:38:05.940 --> 00:38:06.680 once you break 00:38:06.680 --> 00:38:08.180 the 10,000-person threshold, 00:38:08.540 --> 00:38:09.200 your ability 00:38:09.200 --> 00:38:10.200 to build relationships 00:38:10.200 --> 00:38:11.080 with your audience 00:38:11.080 --> 00:38:12.860 decreases dramatically. 00:38:13.320 --> 00:38:14.480 At about 10,000 people, 00:38:14.940 --> 00:38:16.100 most people aren't going to 00:38:16.100 --> 00:38:16.780 want to talk to you 00:38:16.780 --> 00:38:17.600 who are engaging with you, 00:38:17.640 --> 00:38:18.420 but you'll have a subset 00:38:18.420 --> 00:38:19.220 who really want 00:38:19.220 --> 00:38:20.040 to have engagement 00:38:20.040 --> 00:38:21.500 and you can keep up with it. 00:38:21.560 --> 00:38:22.320 You can be a presence 00:38:22.320 --> 00:38:23.080 in their life. 00:38:23.520 --> 00:38:24.220 And so we don't really 00:38:24.220 --> 00:38:25.140 want to go beyond that. 00:38:25.260 --> 00:38:26.080 And so Endeavor, 00:38:26.180 --> 00:38:26.920 that's kind of our thing 00:38:26.920 --> 00:38:28.040 is finding these creators 00:38:28.040 --> 00:38:29.400 and helping them 00:38:29.400 --> 00:38:30.760 whether it's starting new things 00:38:30.760 --> 00:38:32.140 or take what they're already doing 00:38:32.140 --> 00:38:32.980 and level it up, 00:38:33.080 --> 00:38:34.040 reach more people with it 00:38:34.040 --> 00:38:34.900 because it's great content 00:38:34.900 --> 00:38:35.680 and we want to help them 00:38:35.680 --> 00:38:36.340 reach more people. 00:38:36.720 --> 00:38:37.480 That's what we do there. 00:38:38.200 --> 00:38:39.400 The name of the game though, 00:38:39.440 --> 00:38:40.380 just to be frank with you, 00:38:40.420 --> 00:38:41.680 and this is a word 00:38:41.680 --> 00:38:42.740 to all people in churches, 00:38:43.300 --> 00:38:44.660 data is everything. 00:38:45.600 --> 00:38:46.900 The battle is not 00:38:46.900 --> 00:38:47.820 for who can produce 00:38:47.820 --> 00:38:48.780 the best podcast. 00:38:49.000 --> 00:38:50.360 The battle is not 00:38:50.360 --> 00:38:51.740 between Christian organizations. 00:38:52.220 --> 00:38:53.200 The battle is between 00:38:53.200 --> 00:38:54.120 us and Disney, 00:38:54.340 --> 00:38:55.760 us and the Fox News Network, 00:38:55.940 --> 00:38:56.980 us and the New York Times. 00:38:57.300 --> 00:38:58.000 These organizations 00:38:58.000 --> 00:38:58.660 have collected 00:38:58.660 --> 00:39:00.100 massive amounts of data 00:39:00.100 --> 00:39:00.540 on people. 00:39:00.680 --> 00:39:01.540 They know what they like. 00:39:01.620 --> 00:39:02.520 They know what they're watching. 00:39:02.660 --> 00:39:03.820 They know what they're engaging with. 00:39:04.120 --> 00:39:05.060 And they're using that. 00:39:05.180 --> 00:39:05.900 They're feeding that 00:39:05.900 --> 00:39:06.620 into AI, 00:39:06.820 --> 00:39:07.500 into algorithms, 00:39:07.700 --> 00:39:08.900 into nodes 00:39:08.900 --> 00:39:10.100 of connected machines, 00:39:10.240 --> 00:39:11.700 which will then target 00:39:11.700 --> 00:39:12.640 their content 00:39:12.640 --> 00:39:13.600 to the right person. 00:39:14.020 --> 00:39:14.560 And this is how 00:39:14.560 --> 00:39:15.280 they're growing 00:39:15.280 --> 00:39:16.480 their subscription audiences. 00:39:17.200 --> 00:39:18.540 And so you have to understand 00:39:18.540 --> 00:39:19.940 that the most important asset 00:39:19.940 --> 00:39:21.380 you have as a podcaster 00:39:21.380 --> 00:39:22.160 or a church 00:39:22.160 --> 00:39:23.720 is your data. 00:39:24.160 --> 00:39:24.960 It's the information 00:39:24.960 --> 00:39:25.600 that you have 00:39:25.600 --> 00:39:26.500 on specific people. 00:39:26.920 --> 00:39:27.700 And if you can get good 00:39:27.700 --> 00:39:28.740 at collecting that data 00:39:28.740 --> 00:39:30.180 and cleaning up that data 00:39:30.180 --> 00:39:31.380 and using that data well 00:39:31.380 --> 00:39:32.380 so that you can target 00:39:32.380 --> 00:39:33.560 ads to those people 00:39:33.560 --> 00:39:34.420 inside your church 00:39:34.420 --> 00:39:35.920 using various ad platforms, 00:39:36.420 --> 00:39:37.420 you are going to have 00:39:37.420 --> 00:39:38.580 tremendous reach 00:39:38.580 --> 00:39:39.640 and tremendous success. 00:39:40.100 --> 00:39:40.740 And so that's really 00:39:40.740 --> 00:39:41.720 one of our big focal points. 00:39:41.820 --> 00:39:42.860 We are constantly, 00:39:43.040 --> 00:39:43.600 constantly, 00:39:43.760 --> 00:39:45.640 constantly collecting data. 00:39:45.820 --> 00:39:46.500 We don't do it 00:39:46.500 --> 00:39:47.420 in unethical ways. 00:39:47.560 --> 00:39:49.040 We abide by all the standards. 00:39:49.040 --> 00:39:49.820 This is not a kind of 00:39:49.820 --> 00:39:50.600 a no-holds-bar, 00:39:50.700 --> 00:39:51.760 take-whatever-you-can 00:39:51.760 --> 00:39:52.700 approach. 00:39:52.860 --> 00:39:53.420 That's not what we're 00:39:53.420 --> 00:39:54.320 trying to do at all. 00:39:54.640 --> 00:39:55.780 But that's where we're going. 00:39:55.880 --> 00:39:56.560 I mean, the next year 00:39:56.560 --> 00:39:57.620 is really the year 00:39:57.620 --> 00:39:58.920 of more data collection 00:39:58.920 --> 00:39:59.440 for us. 00:39:59.720 --> 00:40:00.780 I want to come back 00:40:00.780 --> 00:40:01.320 to the data. 00:40:01.580 --> 00:40:02.620 But Endeavor, 00:40:03.680 --> 00:40:05.040 what's the end game? 00:40:05.380 --> 00:40:06.180 So you're helping 00:40:06.180 --> 00:40:06.760 to create 00:40:06.760 --> 00:40:07.900 mid-level influencers, 00:40:08.140 --> 00:40:08.700 helping them 00:40:08.700 --> 00:40:10.420 grow in their influence. 00:40:10.580 --> 00:40:11.260 Are you trying 00:40:11.260 --> 00:40:12.860 to get people 00:40:12.860 --> 00:40:14.340 into the church building 00:40:14.340 --> 00:40:15.340 to reconnect with them? 00:40:15.400 --> 00:40:15.920 Are you trying 00:40:15.920 --> 00:40:16.740 to drive people 00:40:16.740 --> 00:40:17.340 to a 00:40:17.340 --> 00:40:19.060 asynchronous community 00:40:19.060 --> 00:40:20.220 for ongoing 00:40:20.220 --> 00:40:21.520 discipleship or relationship? 00:40:21.860 --> 00:40:23.460 What's the why 00:40:23.460 --> 00:40:24.320 behind Endeavor? 00:40:24.740 --> 00:40:25.980 Well, I would want 00:40:25.980 --> 00:40:26.760 to say all the above. 00:40:26.940 --> 00:40:28.000 Endeavor is at its heart 00:40:28.000 --> 00:40:29.020 a missional organization. 00:40:29.240 --> 00:40:30.140 We want to reach people 00:40:30.140 --> 00:40:31.020 who are far from God. 00:40:31.100 --> 00:40:31.780 So when we're thinking 00:40:31.780 --> 00:40:32.700 about the kinds of people 00:40:32.700 --> 00:40:33.780 that we want to bring in, 00:40:34.100 --> 00:40:34.860 we're looking for people 00:40:34.860 --> 00:40:35.800 who aren't just talking 00:40:35.800 --> 00:40:36.320 to Christians. 00:40:36.320 --> 00:40:37.760 They're talking about topics 00:40:37.760 --> 00:40:38.700 or issues 00:40:38.700 --> 00:40:39.600 that have 00:40:39.600 --> 00:40:40.840 kind of a Venn diagram 00:40:40.840 --> 00:40:41.420 overlap 00:40:41.420 --> 00:40:42.340 with the interests 00:40:42.340 --> 00:40:43.260 of non-Christians. 00:40:43.900 --> 00:40:44.400 And that's because, 00:40:44.500 --> 00:40:44.680 again, 00:40:44.740 --> 00:40:45.380 we believe that 00:40:45.380 --> 00:40:45.860 the internet 00:40:45.860 --> 00:40:46.920 is a mission field. 00:40:47.060 --> 00:40:47.540 And so finding 00:40:47.540 --> 00:40:48.320 content creators 00:40:48.320 --> 00:40:49.380 who can cross the gap 00:40:49.380 --> 00:40:50.580 between Christian community 00:40:50.580 --> 00:40:51.800 and non-Christian communities 00:40:51.800 --> 00:40:53.120 is key to welcoming 00:40:53.120 --> 00:40:53.900 those people in. 00:40:54.040 --> 00:40:54.700 To your question 00:40:54.700 --> 00:40:55.500 of what's the end goal, 00:40:55.600 --> 00:40:55.980 I want to say 00:40:55.980 --> 00:40:56.600 all of the above. 00:40:56.980 --> 00:40:57.840 We would love to see 00:40:57.840 --> 00:40:59.380 more asynchronous communities. 00:40:59.820 --> 00:41:01.080 To be perfectly frank, 00:41:01.120 --> 00:41:01.680 we've never had 00:41:01.680 --> 00:41:02.860 a great level of success 00:41:02.860 --> 00:41:03.940 developing those things. 00:41:04.300 --> 00:41:05.340 But we're also developing 00:41:05.340 --> 00:41:06.060 some technology 00:41:06.060 --> 00:41:06.640 and strategies 00:41:06.640 --> 00:41:07.420 for helping people 00:41:07.420 --> 00:41:08.980 connect into local churches 00:41:08.980 --> 00:41:09.500 who are listening. 00:41:09.620 --> 00:41:10.100 For example, 00:41:10.940 --> 00:41:12.260 in podcasting, 00:41:12.340 --> 00:41:13.400 there's now the ability 00:41:13.400 --> 00:41:14.980 to do geofencing 00:41:14.980 --> 00:41:16.020 where you are targeting 00:41:16.020 --> 00:41:16.960 specific ads 00:41:16.960 --> 00:41:18.560 to specific geolocations. 00:41:19.140 --> 00:41:19.820 And so our hope 00:41:19.820 --> 00:41:20.300 is to partner 00:41:20.300 --> 00:41:20.840 with churches 00:41:20.840 --> 00:41:22.900 in major metropolitan areas 00:41:22.900 --> 00:41:24.020 and essentially 00:41:24.020 --> 00:41:25.400 advertise their church 00:41:25.400 --> 00:41:26.340 to anybody listening 00:41:26.340 --> 00:41:27.200 to our podcast 00:41:27.200 --> 00:41:28.620 in that metro area 00:41:28.620 --> 00:41:29.560 because we've connected 00:41:29.560 --> 00:41:29.920 with them. 00:41:30.020 --> 00:41:30.600 We know who they are. 00:41:30.700 --> 00:41:31.440 We trust the church 00:41:31.440 --> 00:41:32.500 and we can send people 00:41:32.500 --> 00:41:33.060 that way. 00:41:33.480 --> 00:41:33.700 And so, 00:41:33.920 --> 00:41:34.140 you know, 00:41:34.240 --> 00:41:36.040 those are just a handful 00:41:36.040 --> 00:41:36.660 of strategies, 00:41:36.820 --> 00:41:37.740 but that's our long-term goal. 00:41:37.820 --> 00:41:38.280 We want people 00:41:38.280 --> 00:41:38.900 who don't know Jesus 00:41:38.900 --> 00:41:39.540 to meet Jesus. 00:41:39.680 --> 00:41:40.460 And once they meet Jesus, 00:41:40.460 --> 00:41:41.420 we do want to help 00:41:41.420 --> 00:41:42.480 them move in the community. 00:41:42.980 --> 00:41:44.500 That's beautiful. 00:41:44.840 --> 00:41:45.020 I mean, 00:41:45.040 --> 00:41:46.300 I say that's beautiful a lot. 00:41:46.380 --> 00:41:47.940 That's like my stall phrase 00:41:47.940 --> 00:41:49.120 while I try to imagine 00:41:49.120 --> 00:41:50.340 like whatever the next question 00:41:50.340 --> 00:41:50.900 is I'm saying. 00:41:51.160 --> 00:41:51.880 That's my knee jerk. 00:41:51.960 --> 00:41:52.600 I'm going to confess 00:41:52.600 --> 00:41:53.440 right here on the show. 00:41:53.580 --> 00:41:54.300 But literally, 00:41:54.440 --> 00:41:55.300 the words that you're 00:41:55.300 --> 00:41:56.520 talking about 00:41:56.520 --> 00:41:58.120 and either connecting 00:41:58.120 --> 00:41:58.900 into physical space, 00:41:59.000 --> 00:41:59.640 connecting into 00:41:59.640 --> 00:42:01.080 an async 00:42:01.080 --> 00:42:02.200 or multiple asyncs 00:42:02.200 --> 00:42:02.740 like that, 00:42:03.140 --> 00:42:04.580 this is incredible. 00:42:04.800 --> 00:42:05.100 This is, 00:42:05.420 --> 00:42:06.700 there's a handful 00:42:06.700 --> 00:42:07.260 of churches, 00:42:07.420 --> 00:42:07.860 by the way, 00:42:07.860 --> 00:42:08.120 Patrick, 00:42:08.300 --> 00:42:09.320 that are thinking 00:42:09.320 --> 00:42:09.920 the same way. 00:42:10.000 --> 00:42:10.660 We did a podcast 00:42:10.660 --> 00:42:12.000 with Seacoast. 00:42:13.220 --> 00:42:14.400 Maybe not that long ago, 00:42:14.460 --> 00:42:15.100 maybe a couple months 00:42:15.100 --> 00:42:15.660 at this point. 00:42:17.120 --> 00:42:18.220 I love this podcast. 00:42:18.620 --> 00:42:19.440 They literally listened 00:42:19.440 --> 00:42:20.560 to the 20-year-old intern. 00:42:20.660 --> 00:42:21.380 The 20-year-old intern 00:42:21.380 --> 00:42:22.400 came up with an idea. 00:42:22.820 --> 00:42:22.960 Hey, 00:42:23.080 --> 00:42:23.920 let's start to, 00:42:24.060 --> 00:42:24.900 exactly what you said, 00:42:24.940 --> 00:42:25.540 let's start to find 00:42:25.540 --> 00:42:27.340 some mid-level influencers 00:42:27.340 --> 00:42:28.860 and connect them in. 00:42:28.940 --> 00:42:29.580 And they got like 00:42:29.580 --> 00:42:30.840 thousands of people 00:42:30.840 --> 00:42:31.580 now in an async 00:42:31.580 --> 00:42:31.980 and they're trying 00:42:31.980 --> 00:42:32.480 to figure out 00:42:32.480 --> 00:42:33.680 how to disciple people 00:42:33.680 --> 00:42:36.080 in Discord. 00:42:36.240 --> 00:42:36.920 I think they're in Discord. 00:42:37.100 --> 00:42:37.640 They were talking 00:42:37.640 --> 00:42:38.020 about moving 00:42:38.020 --> 00:42:38.900 into another platform. 00:42:39.260 --> 00:42:40.360 But it's beautiful 00:42:40.360 --> 00:42:42.080 to see churches 00:42:42.080 --> 00:42:42.900 like yours 00:42:42.900 --> 00:42:43.480 that are now 00:42:43.480 --> 00:42:44.860 wanting to wrestle 00:42:44.860 --> 00:42:45.720 and explore 00:42:45.720 --> 00:42:46.700 a different idea. 00:42:47.020 --> 00:42:47.380 Honestly, 00:42:47.560 --> 00:42:48.060 I could have, 00:42:48.480 --> 00:42:49.420 I want to bring it back 00:42:49.420 --> 00:42:50.480 and just have a whole conversation 00:42:50.480 --> 00:42:51.320 about what that looks like. 00:42:51.440 --> 00:42:52.620 This is a new organization 00:42:52.620 --> 00:42:54.000 for you in 23? 00:42:54.740 --> 00:42:55.740 Something you're starting new? 00:42:56.380 --> 00:42:58.700 So Endeavor launched in, 00:42:58.940 --> 00:42:59.620 let's see if I can get 00:42:59.620 --> 00:43:00.260 my dates right here. 00:43:00.360 --> 00:43:02.360 It launched in April of 2021. 00:43:02.940 --> 00:43:03.980 So we're about a year and a half 00:43:03.980 --> 00:43:04.920 into the organization. 00:43:05.900 --> 00:43:07.100 But we have a charter 00:43:07.100 --> 00:43:08.580 and we have a very 00:43:08.580 --> 00:43:09.940 well-laid plan 00:43:09.940 --> 00:43:10.740 for where we're going. 00:43:10.880 --> 00:43:11.560 So in terms of 00:43:11.560 --> 00:43:12.340 the actual part 00:43:12.340 --> 00:43:14.060 of bringing content creators in 00:43:14.060 --> 00:43:15.840 and helping them be successful, 00:43:16.160 --> 00:43:17.280 that's kind of the last step 00:43:17.280 --> 00:43:17.760 on the line. 00:43:18.380 --> 00:43:19.260 We're very much 00:43:19.260 --> 00:43:20.320 in the tool building 00:43:20.320 --> 00:43:21.400 mode right now. 00:43:21.480 --> 00:43:22.320 We're developing the tools 00:43:22.320 --> 00:43:23.000 we need to help them 00:43:23.000 --> 00:43:23.520 be successful. 00:43:23.740 --> 00:43:24.060 And again, 00:43:24.160 --> 00:43:24.920 a huge part of that 00:43:24.920 --> 00:43:25.800 is data collection. 00:43:26.180 --> 00:43:26.400 Awesome. 00:43:26.780 --> 00:43:27.820 So let's dig into 00:43:27.820 --> 00:43:28.600 the data piece 00:43:28.600 --> 00:43:29.660 because I could talk all day 00:43:29.660 --> 00:43:30.260 about the Endeavor. 00:43:30.960 --> 00:43:32.480 the data piece. 00:43:33.520 --> 00:43:34.100 Like, you know, 00:43:34.140 --> 00:43:35.160 I know Glue Insights 00:43:35.160 --> 00:43:36.000 was a thing 00:43:36.000 --> 00:43:37.740 and they've paused 00:43:37.740 --> 00:43:39.220 that Insights platform. 00:43:39.860 --> 00:43:40.900 Where are you pulling 00:43:40.900 --> 00:43:41.840 data from? 00:43:41.920 --> 00:43:42.500 This may be, 00:43:42.780 --> 00:43:44.100 this is like the advanced 00:43:44.100 --> 00:43:45.180 level conversation. 00:43:45.320 --> 00:43:46.340 We're going deep in here. 00:43:47.120 --> 00:43:48.120 Some of my audience 00:43:48.120 --> 00:43:49.540 is going to tap into this. 00:43:49.620 --> 00:43:50.440 Some of us are going to be like, 00:43:50.520 --> 00:43:51.040 no, thank you. 00:43:51.520 --> 00:43:53.420 But where are you pulling 00:43:53.420 --> 00:43:54.820 the data from 00:43:54.820 --> 00:43:56.360 when you're trying to figure out 00:43:56.360 --> 00:43:57.020 what's going on 00:43:57.020 --> 00:43:57.780 at the local level? 00:43:58.160 --> 00:43:59.820 Yeah, that's a fantastic question. 00:44:00.660 --> 00:44:02.000 So there's multiple sources. 00:44:02.260 --> 00:44:03.080 And let me just state 00:44:03.080 --> 00:44:03.580 this up front. 00:44:03.680 --> 00:44:04.900 I am not a data scientist. 00:44:05.300 --> 00:44:06.280 We have a data scientist 00:44:06.280 --> 00:44:06.880 on our team. 00:44:07.080 --> 00:44:07.240 Okay? 00:44:07.340 --> 00:44:08.900 So if there are data scientists 00:44:08.900 --> 00:44:09.780 listening to this 00:44:09.780 --> 00:44:10.820 and I say something 00:44:10.820 --> 00:44:11.600 that sounds wrong, 00:44:11.660 --> 00:44:12.340 it's because I'm not 00:44:12.340 --> 00:44:13.120 the data scientist. 00:44:14.540 --> 00:44:15.460 My purview 00:44:15.460 --> 00:44:16.180 is a little bit 00:44:16.180 --> 00:44:17.560 higher level on it. 00:44:17.600 --> 00:44:18.120 So I understand 00:44:18.120 --> 00:44:19.140 how the system works. 00:44:19.880 --> 00:44:20.940 We draw on data 00:44:20.940 --> 00:44:21.940 from multiple sources. 00:44:22.940 --> 00:44:23.820 We, for example, 00:44:23.820 --> 00:44:24.520 I already talked 00:44:24.520 --> 00:44:25.940 about our devotionals. 00:44:26.360 --> 00:44:27.440 One of the best ways 00:44:27.440 --> 00:44:28.660 that we draw on data 00:44:28.660 --> 00:44:29.220 is just by getting 00:44:29.220 --> 00:44:29.940 people's names 00:44:29.940 --> 00:44:30.780 and email addresses. 00:44:31.260 --> 00:44:32.000 That's our currency. 00:44:32.240 --> 00:44:32.820 That's our goal. 00:44:32.940 --> 00:44:33.800 The thing that we want 00:44:33.800 --> 00:44:34.700 more than anything else 00:44:34.700 --> 00:44:35.320 is your name 00:44:35.320 --> 00:44:36.920 and your email address. 00:44:37.320 --> 00:44:38.220 Now, we have all 00:44:38.220 --> 00:44:38.980 of our websites 00:44:38.980 --> 00:44:40.720 integrated with HubSpot, 00:44:40.800 --> 00:44:41.540 but you can integrate them 00:44:41.540 --> 00:44:42.960 with really any CRM 00:44:42.960 --> 00:44:43.460 out there 00:44:43.460 --> 00:44:44.440 so that we're able 00:44:44.440 --> 00:44:45.080 to track 00:44:45.080 --> 00:44:46.600 what people are looking at 00:44:46.600 --> 00:44:47.600 viewing on our website, 00:44:47.740 --> 00:44:48.220 which, of course, 00:44:48.320 --> 00:44:49.340 then begins to give us 00:44:49.340 --> 00:44:49.920 a picture of 00:44:49.920 --> 00:44:50.700 who is this person? 00:44:50.840 --> 00:44:51.860 What are they interested in? 00:44:51.920 --> 00:44:52.660 What are the topics 00:44:52.660 --> 00:44:53.380 that they read? 00:44:53.800 --> 00:44:54.480 What are the things 00:44:54.480 --> 00:44:54.980 that they spend 00:44:54.980 --> 00:44:55.900 a lot of time on? 00:44:56.160 --> 00:44:57.120 And you can track 00:44:57.120 --> 00:44:58.360 those things on HubSpot 00:44:58.360 --> 00:44:59.440 and you can create tags 00:44:59.440 --> 00:45:00.200 so that you're, again, 00:45:00.540 --> 00:45:01.180 you're essentially 00:45:01.180 --> 00:45:02.220 building a profile 00:45:02.220 --> 00:45:03.460 of who this individual is. 00:45:03.860 --> 00:45:04.640 And then you're able 00:45:04.640 --> 00:45:06.280 to take that contact information 00:45:06.280 --> 00:45:07.520 and plug it into Meta 00:45:07.520 --> 00:45:09.860 or into Google's ad platform. 00:45:10.400 --> 00:45:14.100 And you can't really do 00:45:14.100 --> 00:45:14.780 direct targeting 00:45:14.780 --> 00:45:15.760 to grab that person, 00:45:15.840 --> 00:45:16.300 but you can create 00:45:16.300 --> 00:45:16.680 what are called 00:45:16.680 --> 00:45:17.600 lookalike audiences. 00:45:18.160 --> 00:45:19.020 And so let's say 00:45:19.020 --> 00:45:19.900 we've got a pile 00:45:19.900 --> 00:45:20.980 of a thousand contacts 00:45:20.980 --> 00:45:22.340 who we know 00:45:22.340 --> 00:45:23.360 because of what 00:45:23.360 --> 00:45:24.020 they've looked at 00:45:24.020 --> 00:45:25.140 are highly interested 00:45:25.140 --> 00:45:26.900 in prayer. 00:45:27.280 --> 00:45:28.080 They're very interested 00:45:28.080 --> 00:45:29.820 in pieces on anxiety. 00:45:30.140 --> 00:45:31.100 They're very interested 00:45:31.100 --> 00:45:34.880 in Bible studies 00:45:34.880 --> 00:45:35.680 on the gospel of Mark. 00:45:35.760 --> 00:45:35.980 I don't know. 00:45:36.060 --> 00:45:36.580 Let's just get 00:45:36.580 --> 00:45:37.440 a really narrow target. 00:45:37.820 --> 00:45:38.980 Well, we could then 00:45:38.980 --> 00:45:40.780 come up with a gospel study 00:45:40.780 --> 00:45:41.980 on the book of Mark 00:45:41.980 --> 00:45:43.300 that talks about prayers 00:45:43.300 --> 00:45:43.740 in Mark 00:45:43.740 --> 00:45:45.160 that focuses on anxiety. 00:45:45.480 --> 00:45:46.620 And we could create 00:45:46.620 --> 00:45:47.580 lookalike audiences 00:45:47.580 --> 00:45:49.040 and go reach more people 00:45:49.040 --> 00:45:49.920 who are just like them. 00:45:49.920 --> 00:45:51.700 Now, if those are successful 00:45:51.700 --> 00:45:52.460 and those people 00:45:52.460 --> 00:45:53.320 click on the link 00:45:53.320 --> 00:45:54.180 and they go fill out 00:45:54.180 --> 00:45:54.620 the forms 00:45:54.620 --> 00:45:55.220 that they can get 00:45:55.220 --> 00:45:55.820 the devotional, 00:45:56.220 --> 00:45:56.880 well, now we've gotten 00:45:56.880 --> 00:45:57.580 their information. 00:45:57.700 --> 00:45:58.420 But because we know 00:45:58.420 --> 00:45:59.460 where they're coming from, 00:45:59.660 --> 00:46:00.820 we know what they looked at, 00:46:00.860 --> 00:46:01.520 we know what they want, 00:46:01.780 --> 00:46:02.440 they're kind of coming 00:46:02.440 --> 00:46:03.660 with a pre-built profile 00:46:03.660 --> 00:46:04.860 from that point. 00:46:05.260 --> 00:46:05.640 And now you're going 00:46:05.640 --> 00:46:06.560 to get the idea 00:46:06.560 --> 00:46:07.840 of data as a flywheel. 00:46:08.240 --> 00:46:10.300 The more it's exponential 00:46:10.300 --> 00:46:11.020 in growth. 00:46:11.160 --> 00:46:11.840 When you only have 00:46:11.840 --> 00:46:12.620 a hundred contacts 00:46:12.620 --> 00:46:13.360 in your database, 00:46:13.360 --> 00:46:14.600 that's useful. 00:46:14.820 --> 00:46:15.480 It's not nearly 00:46:15.480 --> 00:46:16.420 as useful as a thousand. 00:46:16.640 --> 00:46:17.540 And that's not nearly 00:46:17.540 --> 00:46:18.720 as useful as 10,000. 00:46:18.760 --> 00:46:19.180 Because the more 00:46:19.180 --> 00:46:20.080 contacts you have, 00:46:20.140 --> 00:46:21.160 the more you can compare 00:46:21.160 --> 00:46:22.160 and cross-analyze 00:46:22.160 --> 00:46:22.720 those people. 00:46:22.900 --> 00:46:23.820 And the better picture 00:46:23.820 --> 00:46:24.660 you have of the kinds 00:46:24.660 --> 00:46:25.320 of people that 00:46:25.320 --> 00:46:26.460 you're bringing in. 00:46:26.760 --> 00:46:27.520 So that's where 00:46:27.520 --> 00:46:28.440 we're drawing in 00:46:28.440 --> 00:46:29.500 a lot of our data 00:46:29.500 --> 00:46:30.260 and information. 00:46:30.760 --> 00:46:30.860 Yeah. 00:46:30.960 --> 00:46:31.640 So when we've gone 00:46:31.640 --> 00:46:32.460 from podcasting 00:46:32.460 --> 00:46:33.000 to content, 00:46:33.200 --> 00:46:33.880 to data, 00:46:34.240 --> 00:46:35.180 to async, 00:46:35.260 --> 00:46:35.800 this has been 00:46:35.800 --> 00:46:37.320 a really good conversation. 00:46:37.800 --> 00:46:38.560 You have not been 00:46:38.560 --> 00:46:39.180 a train wreck. 00:46:39.320 --> 00:46:39.920 This has been, 00:46:40.320 --> 00:46:40.560 you know, 00:46:40.640 --> 00:46:42.120 considering a stranger 00:46:42.120 --> 00:46:43.140 on Twitter, 00:46:43.300 --> 00:46:44.100 like this has been 00:46:44.100 --> 00:46:46.000 a really good dive 00:46:46.000 --> 00:46:47.480 into the strategy 00:46:47.480 --> 00:46:48.600 that you guys are 00:46:48.600 --> 00:46:49.840 operating out of 00:46:49.840 --> 00:46:50.520 in Missouri. 00:46:51.220 --> 00:46:53.240 The look of the audience, 00:46:53.520 --> 00:46:54.580 the lookalike audiences 00:46:54.580 --> 00:46:55.440 you're developing, 00:46:56.080 --> 00:46:56.980 do you limit, 00:46:57.280 --> 00:46:58.300 because you're a physical church, 00:46:58.740 --> 00:46:59.480 do you limit 00:46:59.480 --> 00:47:00.840 based on physical location? 00:47:01.160 --> 00:47:03.080 Do you do discipleship 00:47:03.080 --> 00:47:04.520 digitally outside 00:47:04.520 --> 00:47:05.720 of the physical reach 00:47:05.720 --> 00:47:06.180 of the church? 00:47:06.320 --> 00:47:07.260 Like what's that 00:47:07.260 --> 00:47:08.420 limitation look like 00:47:08.420 --> 00:47:08.720 for you? 00:47:08.920 --> 00:47:09.060 Yeah. 00:47:09.120 --> 00:47:09.300 I mean, 00:47:09.400 --> 00:47:10.240 that's going to be 00:47:10.240 --> 00:47:11.600 on a case-by-case basis 00:47:11.600 --> 00:47:13.420 and the kinds of content 00:47:13.420 --> 00:47:14.100 that we're targeting 00:47:14.100 --> 00:47:15.280 inside of our city 00:47:15.280 --> 00:47:16.620 versus outside of our city 00:47:16.620 --> 00:47:17.740 is oftentimes 00:47:17.740 --> 00:47:18.480 going to look 00:47:18.480 --> 00:47:19.200 quite different. 00:47:19.900 --> 00:47:21.000 If you're inside 00:47:21.000 --> 00:47:22.080 of Columbia, Missouri, 00:47:22.080 --> 00:47:22.920 where we live 00:47:22.920 --> 00:47:24.420 and we reach you, 00:47:24.620 --> 00:47:25.420 we want you to come 00:47:25.420 --> 00:47:25.940 to the crossing. 00:47:26.180 --> 00:47:26.920 We want you to step 00:47:26.920 --> 00:47:27.520 inside our doors. 00:47:27.700 --> 00:47:28.360 If you're outside 00:47:28.360 --> 00:47:28.800 of Columbia, 00:47:28.900 --> 00:47:29.600 that's an expectation 00:47:29.600 --> 00:47:30.580 I can't have of you. 00:47:30.920 --> 00:47:31.800 You're not going 00:47:31.800 --> 00:47:32.600 to walk inside our doors. 00:47:33.060 --> 00:47:33.240 And yet, 00:47:33.300 --> 00:47:33.880 that doesn't mean 00:47:33.880 --> 00:47:34.860 that this online content 00:47:34.860 --> 00:47:35.720 isn't going to be good 00:47:35.720 --> 00:47:36.720 for your walk with Jesus. 00:47:37.320 --> 00:47:37.660 And so, 00:47:37.760 --> 00:47:38.440 when you think about 00:47:38.440 --> 00:47:39.400 those lookalike audiences, 00:47:39.760 --> 00:47:40.280 they're going to look 00:47:40.280 --> 00:47:42.740 different in a local area 00:47:42.740 --> 00:47:43.660 than they do nationally. 00:47:43.840 --> 00:47:44.460 And we do both. 00:47:44.620 --> 00:47:44.760 I mean, 00:47:44.820 --> 00:47:45.520 we're reaching 00:47:45.520 --> 00:47:46.540 a national audience 00:47:46.540 --> 00:47:47.140 with our podcasts 00:47:47.140 --> 00:47:47.840 and our content. 00:47:48.000 --> 00:47:48.540 And we also have 00:47:48.540 --> 00:47:49.580 a very local audience 00:47:49.580 --> 00:47:50.500 that we're reaching 00:47:50.500 --> 00:47:50.920 with it. 00:47:51.040 --> 00:47:51.960 But how we target them, 00:47:52.020 --> 00:47:52.660 the kinds of ads 00:47:52.660 --> 00:47:53.240 we create, 00:47:53.680 --> 00:47:55.100 they do look different. 00:47:55.620 --> 00:47:56.380 This is great. 00:47:56.460 --> 00:47:56.820 So good. 00:47:57.240 --> 00:47:57.360 I mean, 00:47:57.380 --> 00:47:58.320 I feel like I could 00:47:58.320 --> 00:47:58.900 just go on 00:47:58.900 --> 00:47:59.920 and ask more and more. 00:48:00.160 --> 00:48:00.600 And we're going 00:48:00.600 --> 00:48:01.120 to bring you back 00:48:01.120 --> 00:48:01.780 to talk about 00:48:01.780 --> 00:48:03.360 the async thing 00:48:03.360 --> 00:48:04.700 because that's 00:48:04.700 --> 00:48:05.380 just an area 00:48:05.380 --> 00:48:06.140 that I'm really 00:48:06.140 --> 00:48:06.880 intrigued by. 00:48:07.240 --> 00:48:07.940 But man, 00:48:08.080 --> 00:48:08.340 Patrick, 00:48:08.420 --> 00:48:09.900 thanks for being on here 00:48:09.900 --> 00:48:10.900 and thanks for starting 00:48:10.900 --> 00:48:12.260 to unpack 00:48:12.260 --> 00:48:13.380 some of this for us 00:48:13.380 --> 00:48:14.900 of the strategy 00:48:14.900 --> 00:48:16.500 centered on the role 00:48:16.500 --> 00:48:17.580 of content 00:48:17.580 --> 00:48:18.860 with discipleship. 00:48:19.260 --> 00:48:19.360 So, 00:48:19.640 --> 00:48:19.760 hey, 00:48:19.860 --> 00:48:20.540 as we're landing 00:48:20.540 --> 00:48:21.160 the plane here, 00:48:21.280 --> 00:48:22.160 any closing thoughts? 00:48:22.600 --> 00:48:22.960 man, 00:48:23.340 --> 00:48:24.560 I just want to say 00:48:24.560 --> 00:48:25.600 to your listeners 00:48:25.600 --> 00:48:26.200 and to you, 00:48:26.280 --> 00:48:27.220 I'm so grateful 00:48:27.220 --> 00:48:28.200 for Christians 00:48:28.200 --> 00:48:29.920 who are being 00:48:29.920 --> 00:48:30.520 creative 00:48:30.520 --> 00:48:31.840 and inventive. 00:48:31.960 --> 00:48:32.520 I think that's 00:48:32.520 --> 00:48:33.540 the spirit of 00:48:33.540 --> 00:48:34.520 or the image 00:48:34.520 --> 00:48:35.440 of the creator 00:48:35.440 --> 00:48:36.280 inside of us 00:48:36.280 --> 00:48:37.400 to see problems 00:48:37.400 --> 00:48:38.340 and to create 00:48:38.340 --> 00:48:38.800 new ways 00:48:38.800 --> 00:48:39.440 to resolve 00:48:39.440 --> 00:48:40.140 those problems. 00:48:40.840 --> 00:48:41.780 And when you look 00:48:41.780 --> 00:48:42.560 throughout the history 00:48:42.560 --> 00:48:43.200 of Christianity, 00:48:43.860 --> 00:48:44.920 even though right now 00:48:44.920 --> 00:48:45.460 we kind of have 00:48:45.460 --> 00:48:46.560 this Luddite fetish 00:48:46.560 --> 00:48:47.900 where we're resistant 00:48:47.900 --> 00:48:48.680 to technology 00:48:48.680 --> 00:48:49.800 and technology is bad 00:48:49.800 --> 00:48:50.340 and get it out 00:48:50.340 --> 00:48:50.780 of my house, 00:48:50.860 --> 00:48:51.400 I don't want anything 00:48:51.400 --> 00:48:51.900 to do with it. 00:48:51.920 --> 00:48:52.540 It's kind of the normal 00:48:52.540 --> 00:48:53.180 Christian response. 00:48:53.520 --> 00:48:54.400 That hasn't always been 00:48:54.400 --> 00:48:55.420 the response historically. 00:48:55.980 --> 00:48:56.180 I mean, 00:48:56.440 --> 00:48:57.660 Paul walked on roads 00:48:57.660 --> 00:48:58.440 made by Romans. 00:48:58.540 --> 00:48:59.600 That was a new technology. 00:48:59.840 --> 00:49:00.940 There was not a road network 00:49:00.940 --> 00:49:02.160 like what existed in Rome 00:49:02.160 --> 00:49:03.440 anywhere else in the world 00:49:03.440 --> 00:49:04.400 until the time of Rome. 00:49:04.740 --> 00:49:05.220 And of course, 00:49:05.260 --> 00:49:06.600 that was used to trade slaves 00:49:06.600 --> 00:49:07.240 and to move 00:49:07.240 --> 00:49:08.360 an imperial war machine. 00:49:08.480 --> 00:49:09.120 But Paul saw 00:49:09.120 --> 00:49:09.860 the possibility 00:49:09.860 --> 00:49:10.500 of the roads, 00:49:10.580 --> 00:49:11.840 which is I can plant churches 00:49:11.840 --> 00:49:13.000 across the Mediterranean 00:49:13.000 --> 00:49:14.500 and he walked on them. 00:49:15.180 --> 00:49:16.280 Whatever it was created for, 00:49:16.320 --> 00:49:16.760 he used them. 00:49:17.000 --> 00:49:17.540 And the same thing 00:49:17.540 --> 00:49:17.960 can be said 00:49:17.960 --> 00:49:18.860 about the printing press. 00:49:18.940 --> 00:49:19.360 The same thing 00:49:19.360 --> 00:49:20.260 can be said about radio 00:49:20.260 --> 00:49:21.000 and television 00:49:21.000 --> 00:49:21.860 with Billy Graham. 00:49:22.240 --> 00:49:23.220 These new technologies, 00:49:23.360 --> 00:49:23.800 they present 00:49:23.800 --> 00:49:25.280 incredible challenges 00:49:25.280 --> 00:49:26.020 that we do have 00:49:26.020 --> 00:49:26.680 to be serious 00:49:26.680 --> 00:49:27.560 and sober about 00:49:27.560 --> 00:49:28.240 and acknowledge. 00:49:28.680 --> 00:49:29.340 And yet on the flip side, 00:49:29.400 --> 00:49:30.080 I'm just encouraged 00:49:30.080 --> 00:49:31.120 by you and by people 00:49:31.120 --> 00:49:32.220 who are listening to this 00:49:32.220 --> 00:49:32.880 who say, 00:49:33.020 --> 00:49:33.680 you know what though? 00:49:33.900 --> 00:49:34.740 Let's walk on the road. 00:49:34.860 --> 00:49:36.360 Let's use the printing press. 00:49:36.440 --> 00:49:37.180 Let's use the radio. 00:49:37.340 --> 00:49:38.080 God's spirit 00:49:38.080 --> 00:49:38.760 isn't limited 00:49:38.760 --> 00:49:40.740 to in-person networks. 00:49:40.860 --> 00:49:41.880 He can work through 00:49:41.880 --> 00:49:43.520 digital networks. 00:49:44.060 --> 00:49:44.960 Yeah, so good. 00:49:45.480 --> 00:49:45.640 You know, 00:49:45.700 --> 00:49:46.100 what's his name? 00:49:46.160 --> 00:49:46.580 Gutenberg 00:49:46.580 --> 00:49:48.100 was considered a heretic 00:49:48.100 --> 00:49:49.500 for creating 00:49:49.500 --> 00:49:50.180 the printing press. 00:49:50.260 --> 00:49:51.620 Because he put, 00:49:51.800 --> 00:49:52.520 you know, 00:49:52.560 --> 00:49:53.180 the scribes. 00:49:53.360 --> 00:49:53.900 The scribes 00:49:53.900 --> 00:49:54.680 were out of a job. 00:49:55.620 --> 00:49:56.620 And so there's 00:49:56.620 --> 00:49:58.040 several historical references 00:49:58.040 --> 00:49:59.160 to Gutenberg 00:49:59.160 --> 00:49:59.860 being the heretic 00:49:59.860 --> 00:50:01.500 for creating the thing 00:50:01.500 --> 00:50:02.820 that actually caused 00:50:02.820 --> 00:50:03.440 the, you know, 00:50:03.520 --> 00:50:03.940 one of, 00:50:04.040 --> 00:50:04.240 anyway. 00:50:04.580 --> 00:50:04.880 It's a whole, 00:50:05.000 --> 00:50:05.980 well documented 00:50:05.980 --> 00:50:07.400 in books and things, 00:50:07.540 --> 00:50:08.500 industrial revolution. 00:50:09.080 --> 00:50:09.620 So anyway, 00:50:10.060 --> 00:50:11.660 thank you for this conversation, 00:50:11.900 --> 00:50:12.120 Patrick. 00:50:12.380 --> 00:50:13.800 It's been solid. 00:50:14.500 --> 00:50:15.920 We'll have to do it again, 00:50:16.120 --> 00:50:17.200 but we're going to wrap. 00:50:17.320 --> 00:50:18.140 And so for Patrick, 00:50:18.320 --> 00:50:19.480 this is Jeff 00:50:19.480 --> 00:50:20.600 with the Church Digital 00:50:20.600 --> 00:50:21.560 and Digital Church Network. 00:50:21.700 --> 00:50:23.300 Thanks for jumping 00:50:23.300 --> 00:50:23.980 on this podcast. 00:50:24.100 --> 00:50:24.740 We'll see you next time 00:50:24.740 --> 00:50:25.140 on the show. 00:50:25.700 --> 00:50:26.220 Y'all have a good day.