WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:05.980 And so Dave approached us, approached me and said, hey, Jeff, what does it look like to be a digital missionary? 00:00:06.220 --> 00:00:11.080 And I started giving him some long, elaborate response of what a digital missionary looks like. 00:00:11.120 --> 00:00:12.060 He's like, that's too complicated. 00:00:12.420 --> 00:00:14.180 And he started talking to me about BLESS. 00:00:14.440 --> 00:00:20.040 And it was like, oh, my gosh, can we figure out how to do BLESS digitally? 00:00:20.640 --> 00:00:22.260 And he's like, that's a great question. 00:00:22.300 --> 00:00:22.980 You should do that. 00:00:23.240 --> 00:00:25.480 And so that's where this book came from. 00:00:25.540 --> 00:00:26.460 And so we've got it. 00:00:26.480 --> 00:00:27.460 We're publishing it today. 00:00:27.520 --> 00:00:28.060 It's released. 00:00:28.380 --> 00:00:30.980 You can buy it on Amazon. 00:00:31.240 --> 00:00:33.660 You can download the PDF for free. 00:00:33.660 --> 00:00:39.620 Like this is a resource for you and your church and the church members. 00:00:40.060 --> 00:00:42.100 And we're going to talk more about the book. 00:00:42.240 --> 00:00:44.660 But it was just an awesome process. 00:00:45.060 --> 00:00:51.660 Even watching Dr. John, you know, own this book and tear it up, literally shredding Google documents. 00:00:52.620 --> 00:00:56.660 Like it was just an awesome thing seeing all of this come together. 00:00:56.760 --> 00:00:58.560 Welcome to the Church Digital Podcast. 00:00:59.280 --> 00:01:03.340 Through this podcast, we'll talk about the technological innovations within the church. 00:01:03.880 --> 00:01:07.840 But more than tech for tech itself, we'll address deeper questions. 00:01:08.680 --> 00:01:10.460 Is disciple making possible digitally? 00:01:10.460 --> 00:01:13.560 How should we approach the digital mission field? 00:01:14.380 --> 00:01:17.080 Can a biblically grounded church operate in digital space? 00:01:17.860 --> 00:01:20.100 Oh, and where does the metaverse fit into all this? 00:01:20.960 --> 00:01:25.100 Whether you're a big or small church, an established church or a startup church plant, 00:01:25.840 --> 00:01:32.760 the Church Digital's goal is to help churches like yours learn to be a multiplying church, digitally and physically. 00:01:33.360 --> 00:01:40.420 Our heart, that churches like yours will discover a newfound focus on disciple making that will revolutionize your church. 00:01:41.080 --> 00:01:43.760 And now, here's your host, Jeff Reed. 00:01:44.320 --> 00:01:44.660 All right. 00:01:44.700 --> 00:01:47.000 Hey, welcome to the Church Digital Podcast. 00:01:47.740 --> 00:01:52.780 You know, I don't even know what, I have no idea what episode we're on right now. 00:01:52.900 --> 00:01:54.460 I've done so many, I can't keep track. 00:01:54.740 --> 00:02:00.300 And I do know, it's funny, we're laughing over here about it, but I do know I got a new book. 00:02:00.900 --> 00:02:04.880 We got a new book that just came out literally today. 00:02:05.140 --> 00:02:11.720 I'm saying we a lot because we is, well, to be honest, I didn't write, I didn't write this book exclusively. 00:02:11.920 --> 00:02:15.060 I invited the expert into the conversation. 00:02:15.060 --> 00:02:17.360 And let me invite the expert into this conversation. 00:02:18.020 --> 00:02:18.960 Dr. John Harris. 00:02:19.080 --> 00:02:21.500 Dr. John, it's great to have you on the podcast here, sir. 00:02:21.760 --> 00:02:26.560 Great to be here with you, Jeff, and certainly it was a fun project we're going on with you. 00:02:26.840 --> 00:02:27.300 Oh, yeah. 00:02:27.380 --> 00:02:29.660 Well, listen, you survived working on a project with me. 00:02:29.840 --> 00:02:34.280 So that is a hard task unto itself. 00:02:34.600 --> 00:02:36.060 So, listen, here's the deal. 00:02:36.180 --> 00:02:37.380 We wrote another book. 00:02:38.700 --> 00:02:39.780 Long story short. 00:02:39.900 --> 00:02:40.940 Well, here, no, I'll say this. 00:02:41.340 --> 00:02:43.120 I've said we've wrote a book a bunch. 00:02:43.120 --> 00:02:45.800 And we actually wrote the book for Exponential. 00:02:47.000 --> 00:02:49.960 Literally, Dave Ferguson, God bless him, says to me, 00:02:50.280 --> 00:02:52.680 Hey, Jeff, I want you to write a book on this topic. 00:02:52.920 --> 00:02:55.440 And when Dave Ferguson comes up to you and says, 00:02:55.560 --> 00:02:57.240 Hey, Jeff, you need to do something. 00:02:57.580 --> 00:02:59.200 The answer is, yes, sir. 00:02:59.480 --> 00:03:00.980 And so we wrote a book. 00:03:01.180 --> 00:03:07.560 You can download the book at thechurch.digital slash bless book. 00:03:08.240 --> 00:03:09.220 And so here's what we did. 00:03:09.800 --> 00:03:12.000 We did, a lot of you know Dave Ferguson. 00:03:12.000 --> 00:03:17.860 He wrote a book on bless and what it means to be a missionary in physical community. 00:03:18.460 --> 00:03:24.740 And so Dave approached us, approached me and said, Hey, Jeff, what does it look like to be a digital missionary? 00:03:24.740 --> 00:03:29.840 And I started giving him some long, elaborate response of what a digital missionary looks like. 00:03:29.880 --> 00:03:30.860 He's like, that's too complicated. 00:03:31.160 --> 00:03:32.940 And he started talking to me about bless. 00:03:33.380 --> 00:03:34.640 And it was like, oh, my gosh. 00:03:35.040 --> 00:03:38.800 Can we figure out how to do bless digitally? 00:03:39.440 --> 00:03:41.020 And he's like, that's a great question. 00:03:41.060 --> 00:03:41.740 You should do that. 00:03:42.020 --> 00:03:44.240 And so that's where this book came from. 00:03:44.300 --> 00:03:45.200 And so we've got it. 00:03:45.240 --> 00:03:46.220 We're publishing it today. 00:03:46.300 --> 00:03:46.820 It's released. 00:03:47.380 --> 00:03:49.720 You can buy it on Amazon. 00:03:49.980 --> 00:03:52.420 You can download the PDF for free. 00:03:52.980 --> 00:03:58.360 Like, this is a resource for you and your church and the church members. 00:03:58.820 --> 00:04:00.840 And we're going to talk more about the book. 00:04:00.980 --> 00:04:03.380 But it was just an awesome process. 00:04:03.800 --> 00:04:11.120 Even watching Dr. John, you know, own this book and tear it up, literally shredding Google documents. 00:04:11.480 --> 00:04:15.440 Like, it was just an awesome thing seeing all of this come together. 00:04:16.300 --> 00:04:22.000 So, hey, Dr. John, you know, just, you know, we've done, I don't know, three or four podcasts at this point. 00:04:22.120 --> 00:04:23.320 Like, I feel like I've just had it. 00:04:23.620 --> 00:04:26.200 And with the book, I've had way too many conversations with, you know, I'm kidding. 00:04:26.280 --> 00:04:26.700 It's been awesome. 00:04:27.420 --> 00:04:29.860 But maybe just, you know, introduce yourself. 00:04:29.960 --> 00:04:30.660 Give some background. 00:04:31.340 --> 00:04:33.220 Talk to us a little bit about Hearts Like His. 00:04:33.400 --> 00:04:35.200 Like, you know, tell us a little bit about who you are. 00:04:35.200 --> 00:04:42.160 I would say 2019, I was more into the in-person ministry, in-person church. 00:04:42.320 --> 00:04:43.300 That was my jam. 00:04:43.900 --> 00:04:48.640 And I had just stepped out of a role as an executive pastor to do church consulting full-time. 00:04:49.420 --> 00:05:01.840 And so when the pandemic started in March of 2020, and a lot of churches were looking to shift their physical ministry to online ministry, 00:05:02.500 --> 00:05:14.540 I thought it would be a good idea to kind of ride the wave of this rise in online ministry with an online-only expression of church for a couple of reasons. 00:05:15.180 --> 00:05:23.180 One, because the whole online ministry thing, it just, it just, the need for it exploded because of the pandemic and buildings were closed, church buildings were closed. 00:05:23.660 --> 00:05:31.160 But in addition to that, there was a large group of people who I wanted to reach that had already left the building before the pandemic. 00:05:31.520 --> 00:05:45.580 And so the rise of the duns, those who are done with church for a variety of reasons, was a target that I wanted to kind of, I want to be, I want to shift from the rise of the duns to the return of the duns. 00:05:45.940 --> 00:05:53.620 So the idea of the duns, being a part of that, was one of the impotuses behind what we started to do with Hearts Like His. 00:05:54.200 --> 00:06:01.720 And then the context of it being online to do that, just, again, would ride in the wave of the rise of online ministry. 00:06:01.960 --> 00:06:12.180 So my wife and I started Hearts Like His, and that began to be the goal for us, is to have a discipleship element. 00:06:13.260 --> 00:06:17.620 So in addition to targeting that group of people, we wanted to do it with a different message. 00:06:17.860 --> 00:06:26.540 I mean, it's still the gospel, of course, but one that, there's an aspect of the gospel that doesn't get emphasized as much, and that is knowing God as your father. 00:06:26.540 --> 00:06:32.060 So even though we would say we're children of God, we don't always learn how to live as children of God. 00:06:33.520 --> 00:06:38.340 There's a lot of emphasis on being like Jesus, you know, as Christians, we want to grow and become like Jesus, become like Jesus. 00:06:38.980 --> 00:06:39.960 But what was he? 00:06:40.160 --> 00:06:48.500 Yeah, he was king of kings, lord of lords, all that, but he's also a son of God, and he modeled for us how to live in relationship with God as a father. 00:06:48.500 --> 00:06:55.960 And so that aspect of the gospel is one of the things that we emphasize and frame spiritual maturity in. 00:06:56.080 --> 00:06:58.080 And so that's kind of been our goal there. 00:06:58.500 --> 00:07:00.900 So Hearts Like His got born, and we started on Facebook. 00:07:01.020 --> 00:07:03.500 It was a Facebook group, and it just kind of grew from there. 00:07:04.160 --> 00:07:16.540 And just kind of getting out in front of some of what was happening with online ministry, on Facebook specifically, just helped us learn a lot as we kind of pioneered that. 00:07:16.540 --> 00:07:24.360 So my wife and I learned a lot about online ministry, not just online ministry, but because it wasn't the shift from physical to digital. 00:07:24.620 --> 00:07:35.040 It was launching on the digital platform and only being digital with no intention of ever being in a building, but to do digital discipleship. 00:07:35.620 --> 00:07:40.040 And so that's what we created, a digital discipleship community and Hearts Like His. 00:07:40.040 --> 00:07:50.300 And literally today is, well, this is the month where we have hit our two-year anniversary of Hearts Like His. 00:07:50.640 --> 00:07:51.680 Happy anniversary. 00:07:51.940 --> 00:07:52.360 Congratulations. 00:07:52.820 --> 00:07:56.940 I don't think I realized it's been two years, but that's incredible. 00:07:57.160 --> 00:07:57.720 Good for you. 00:07:58.460 --> 00:08:14.340 Yeah, and so listen, when Dave Ferguson's like, hey, write a book on digital missionary, I immediately went to my friend here, Dr. John Harris, who, by the way, has a doctorate in transformational discipleship. 00:08:14.360 --> 00:08:15.260 Am I saying that correctly? 00:08:15.600 --> 00:08:15.960 Mm-hmm. 00:08:16.280 --> 00:08:28.440 Yeah, and so, hey, let's bring in the digital-friendly guy who agrees with digital discipleship, who has a doctorate in transformational discipleship, because he's going to make me look good writing that book. 00:08:28.940 --> 00:08:34.380 And, man, listen, it was a lot of fun working together on that. 00:08:34.600 --> 00:08:43.900 And, you know, I've said Dave Ferguson's name a bunch, but thank you, Dave, who was very open-handed with us in doing it, because we, well, we'll talk about it. 00:08:43.960 --> 00:08:46.920 But it was like, hey, there's no way this is going to work digitally, Dave. 00:08:46.920 --> 00:08:48.060 We're going to have to change some stuff. 00:08:48.480 --> 00:08:53.700 And he's like, you can do whatever you want, contextualize and adjust it to make it happen. 00:08:53.700 --> 00:08:55.280 And so that was very cool. 00:08:56.080 --> 00:09:01.440 Well, hey, let's, Dr. John, let me ask you, because this was an early conversation that we had had. 00:09:02.120 --> 00:09:03.440 And let's revisit it. 00:09:03.700 --> 00:09:05.360 Who is the book written to? 00:09:05.520 --> 00:09:11.060 Like, how did we, what's the journey and the impetus of how we landed the plane on who we're writing to? 00:09:11.060 --> 00:09:15.180 Yeah, so there's a couple of groups. 00:09:15.180 --> 00:09:22.600 One is the Christian who spends a lot of time online anyway. 00:09:23.800 --> 00:09:39.020 And there are opportunities to share Jesus, opportunities to disciple people that they see, but they haven't really been equipped on what to do with those opportunities, how to take advantage of them, even how to recognize them in some cases. 00:09:39.020 --> 00:09:52.960 And so this book is a tool to help believers who, you know, to kind of share Jesus and evangelize in a context where many of them are already spending hours and hours and hours of their time every day and every week. 00:09:53.120 --> 00:10:06.240 And so a lot of the in-person ministry experiences that people are having in their churches, for those who are connected to local churches, a lot of those experiences that they have, they can get content, right? 00:10:06.320 --> 00:10:11.340 It's more like the pastor's teaching series or what they're learning in Sunday school or things like that. 00:10:11.380 --> 00:10:15.860 They can get content from that and then try to share it online if they're doing that. 00:10:16.160 --> 00:10:31.080 But for the most part, they're not being equipped on a model how to begin or start intentional relationships with unsaved people that lead to them knowing Jesus Christ and being able to share the gospel. 00:10:31.320 --> 00:10:39.240 And so for that Christian who's online, seeing comments, you know, all the time, just not, man, how can I reach out to them? 00:10:39.280 --> 00:10:45.560 I wish I had a framework or some steps I can take to initiate a relationship with some people. 00:10:45.980 --> 00:10:54.620 So the Christians who didn't know what to do, wanting a good place to, there's a starting point for somebody to say, here are a few steps. 00:10:54.700 --> 00:11:07.800 It's not like the perfect formula, like you got to go through step one, two, three, four, five, but some kind of framework to give you an idea on ways to recognize opportunities online and steps to take to start developing those relationships. 00:11:07.940 --> 00:11:10.520 So there's a lot of Christians who are looking to be equipped in that. 00:11:11.280 --> 00:11:16.060 And a lot of churches do good at teaching, but not necessarily equipping. 00:11:17.140 --> 00:11:29.880 And when we talk about equipping, one of my passions for that is that I know when I'm coaching pastors about how to up the game on equipping, a lot of times we put a lot of weight on our efforts. 00:11:30.700 --> 00:11:35.940 All right, we'll say, we'll say things like, oh yeah, we had a class on that, but we have a nine week class on this, we have a six week class. 00:11:35.940 --> 00:11:38.420 It doesn't matter how long the class is. 00:11:38.740 --> 00:11:41.140 It doesn't matter what you're teaching, right? 00:11:41.360 --> 00:11:44.700 It is the outcome, people doing something different. 00:11:45.060 --> 00:11:49.440 If they're not doing something different, they haven't been equipped, regardless of what your effort was. 00:11:50.160 --> 00:11:57.160 And so what I like about this particular framework is it gives you some steps to actually do some things. 00:11:57.220 --> 00:11:58.820 That's where the equipping is with this framework. 00:11:58.900 --> 00:12:03.880 It's very simple, and Dave and John did a great job just framing that really good. 00:12:04.600 --> 00:12:16.360 But it's really clear, simple, easy to remember, and easy for the average Christian to take action on when they're spending all this time online and all these different platforms. 00:12:16.940 --> 00:12:30.180 Totally, and it was so important for us, and even as some of the work we've done through Digital Church Network and others, that it's really, there's so much potential movement with the people in the pews. 00:12:30.420 --> 00:12:35.660 And just releasing them, helping them find their purpose, helping get them on mission. 00:12:35.760 --> 00:12:43.140 And you've heard me say on this podcast that really the greatest resource church that we have is sitting in those seats. 00:12:43.140 --> 00:12:56.840 And what would it look like to actually release them, to mobilize them, to get them excited, to reach their circle of influence, and to do that, not only in physical space, but in digital and in the metaverse. 00:12:57.020 --> 00:12:59.120 And so it was a great pleasure. 00:12:59.220 --> 00:13:00.520 Go ahead, Dr. John, go for it. 00:13:00.520 --> 00:13:07.840 The other group I wanted to mention is, there are some who've already left the church, right? 00:13:07.860 --> 00:13:09.040 They're not in the pews anymore. 00:13:09.160 --> 00:13:10.000 They're not in the seats. 00:13:10.320 --> 00:13:14.060 And this book is an opportunity to help them get back engaged in the mission. 00:13:16.020 --> 00:13:23.100 And, you know, from 2015 or so, at least that was the last time I saw, 65 million people have left the church. 00:13:23.720 --> 00:13:27.260 And some of them have become dons, or they're just done with the church. 00:13:27.340 --> 00:13:29.940 They still love Jesus, but they're done with the traditional model. 00:13:29.940 --> 00:13:36.520 And some have become nuns, where, N-O-N-E, where they have no religious affiliation at all. 00:13:37.140 --> 00:13:46.200 And so there's about a 33, 32 million dollar, 33 million, 32 million split with the nuns and the nuns. 00:13:46.720 --> 00:13:59.360 But either way, this tool is also one that they can use as well to get re-engaged in the mission and hopefully connected to a body where they're going to, I mean, it'll be really great 00:13:59.360 --> 00:14:04.240 for somebody who's not attending a Sunday morning worship anymore, experiencing work. 00:14:04.640 --> 00:14:15.400 And they start getting people saved online or even in person and develop a community where now they have really planted a church because they planted the gospel first. 00:14:15.820 --> 00:14:20.440 And it developed into a group of new believers that can now be an online church. 00:14:20.620 --> 00:14:26.260 So it's a really good tool to help those who've already left to re-engage the mission. 00:14:26.660 --> 00:14:27.100 So good. 00:14:27.220 --> 00:14:30.700 And so the resource, the book is Sharing Jesus Online. 00:14:31.300 --> 00:14:32.480 Once again, it's a PDF. 00:14:32.620 --> 00:14:39.600 You can download it for free at thechurch.digital slash bless book, B-L-E-S-S book. 00:14:40.040 --> 00:14:41.260 And so that'll redirect you. 00:14:41.380 --> 00:14:42.680 Exponential published it. 00:14:43.120 --> 00:14:49.940 They're making it a big deal as part of the Lost Cause with the conference in 2023 in March. 00:14:50.420 --> 00:14:52.920 And so we'll include links to all that in the show notes. 00:14:53.020 --> 00:14:53.880 You can grab it. 00:14:54.640 --> 00:15:01.580 The book downloaded for free, you can buy the paperback on Amazon or Kindle and dig into it. 00:15:01.900 --> 00:15:07.540 But what we did through Sharing Jesus Online is we mapped this blessed practices that Dave has 00:15:07.540 --> 00:15:13.160 and basically exposed it to how it would look in digital and metaverse. 00:15:13.480 --> 00:15:17.500 So, Dr. John, why don't you walk us through a little bit briefly or just a quick overview. 00:15:18.280 --> 00:15:19.980 Bless, B-L-E-S-S. 00:15:20.080 --> 00:15:21.120 Like, what are these things? 00:15:21.260 --> 00:15:24.080 Let's start to talk about what that framework looks like. 00:15:24.400 --> 00:15:24.640 Sure. 00:15:24.820 --> 00:15:25.020 Okay. 00:15:25.080 --> 00:15:31.120 So for those who have never heard of the framework at all, I'll introduce Dave and John Ferguson's version of it. 00:15:31.200 --> 00:15:33.680 Because then I'll translate it to what it looks like digital. 00:15:33.680 --> 00:15:37.860 Because how we did it digital is based on how they, the other foundational elements of it. 00:15:37.900 --> 00:15:39.180 So some are the same and some are different. 00:15:39.820 --> 00:15:49.920 So, again, an easy to remember and simple and effective framework for how to develop relations with people that you might not know. 00:15:49.980 --> 00:15:50.660 Or maybe you do know. 00:15:50.940 --> 00:15:53.680 But if you do know them, you can deepen your relationship with them. 00:15:53.800 --> 00:15:56.280 If you don't know them, it's how to start a relationship with them. 00:15:56.660 --> 00:16:01.940 That ultimately leads to being able to share Jesus and them becoming followers of Jesus. 00:16:02.320 --> 00:16:04.840 So the first thing you want to do is begin with prayer. 00:16:05.220 --> 00:16:05.900 We want to begin with prayer. 00:16:05.980 --> 00:16:17.460 We want to ask God, you know, who is it that's in your circle of influence and in your view, whether it's, you know, in person or not, that he might be already working on. 00:16:18.580 --> 00:16:20.980 Because God is already at work in people's hearts. 00:16:20.980 --> 00:16:27.540 And so when we begin with prayer, that helps us align our efforts into what God's plan is. 00:16:27.960 --> 00:16:33.380 So instead of trying to create something on our own and asking God to bless it, we want to align with what he's doing. 00:16:34.240 --> 00:16:37.760 And so whose hearts is he already stirring in? 00:16:37.840 --> 00:16:41.240 Who is he identifying for us to reach out to? 00:16:41.300 --> 00:16:42.440 So you want to begin with prayer. 00:16:43.080 --> 00:16:46.720 And then another thing that prayer does is it softens your heart, too. 00:16:46.860 --> 00:16:53.080 Helps you shift and helps God do some things in your heart to prepare you for what he's going to do in these new relationships. 00:16:53.720 --> 00:16:54.740 So B is begin with prayer. 00:16:55.160 --> 00:16:56.380 L is listen. 00:16:56.940 --> 00:17:03.020 Listen to what they're sharing. 00:17:03.140 --> 00:17:04.260 Listen to what's going on with them. 00:17:04.740 --> 00:17:12.060 And that helps us understand ways that we can do some of the next few steps in this process. 00:17:12.360 --> 00:17:13.660 So B begin with prayer. 00:17:14.100 --> 00:17:14.960 L is listen. 00:17:15.380 --> 00:17:16.520 E is eat. 00:17:17.140 --> 00:17:17.300 All right. 00:17:17.340 --> 00:17:20.600 We're talking about the physical model that Dave and John created. 00:17:20.960 --> 00:17:23.040 So eat with people because a lot of things happen. 00:17:23.420 --> 00:17:25.140 Eating is hard to do digitally. 00:17:25.140 --> 00:17:25.860 It is. 00:17:25.980 --> 00:17:26.600 It is. 00:17:26.720 --> 00:17:27.120 It is. 00:17:27.680 --> 00:17:29.560 So we definitely had to switch that one up. 00:17:30.280 --> 00:17:32.640 But so the idea is that. 00:17:33.260 --> 00:17:39.660 So the transferable concept here is that you want to do something where people's walls come down. 00:17:40.300 --> 00:17:41.380 People connect. 00:17:41.700 --> 00:17:44.680 They relate, you know, over a meal as far as eating. 00:17:45.640 --> 00:17:47.040 A lot of things happen that way. 00:17:47.240 --> 00:17:54.740 And so, you know, when we fellowship with people at church or outside of church, a lot happens over meals. 00:17:54.740 --> 00:17:59.780 You know, dinner, you know, dinner dates or a business dinner or things like that. 00:18:00.300 --> 00:18:01.640 So eating is the E. 00:18:01.800 --> 00:18:02.480 And then S is serving. 00:18:02.480 --> 00:18:03.740 And then S is serving. 00:18:03.740 --> 00:18:12.600 So after you've listened to people and certainly eating, there are conversations where another opportunity to hear from them. 00:18:13.080 --> 00:18:14.380 What are their needs? 00:18:14.640 --> 00:18:15.380 What's going on with them? 00:18:15.440 --> 00:18:16.660 How can you serve them? 00:18:16.660 --> 00:18:20.560 And so that first S is finding out ways to serve them. 00:18:20.560 --> 00:18:24.740 The last S is now beginning to share your Jesus story. 00:18:24.900 --> 00:18:28.220 How has Jesus impacted you in sharing the gospel with them? 00:18:28.640 --> 00:18:37.120 So begin with prayer, listen, eat, serve, and share your story of how Jesus has impacted you. 00:18:37.620 --> 00:18:43.140 So then taking that model that was created, again, for the in-person, looking at how do we do that online? 00:18:43.360 --> 00:18:46.160 Well, some of those principles are easily transferable online. 00:18:46.680 --> 00:18:47.780 You want to pray, right? 00:18:47.860 --> 00:18:48.640 Begin with prayer. 00:18:49.040 --> 00:18:50.120 You want to listen to people. 00:18:50.120 --> 00:18:59.440 But sometimes the online listening or in the digital space, digital and metaverse, is not always audible like in an in-person conversation. 00:19:00.000 --> 00:19:03.660 So what we talked about in our book is like social listening. 00:19:03.660 --> 00:19:07.260 As we're scrolling through news feeds, looking at conversations, we're listening. 00:19:07.580 --> 00:19:22.360 Although we're literally reading, we're actually listening to what people are saying and listening to, you know, cries for help or prayer requests or, hey, I'm struggling with my walk with God or, hey, so-and-so, my family, they just passed away and I'm struggling with that. 00:19:22.480 --> 00:19:24.020 Like we're listening to those kind of things. 00:19:25.080 --> 00:19:29.980 And so listening online is a little different, but very similar. 00:19:29.980 --> 00:19:40.420 And because of some of the new technology and stuff now, you can translate something from just reading or social listening in a news feed to audio conversations. 00:19:41.060 --> 00:19:46.280 And we are listening audibly to people or video conversations. 00:19:46.560 --> 00:19:52.120 And so, but then the big shift for us with online versus in-person is the E. 00:19:52.220 --> 00:19:54.140 Like you're saying, we can't, you can't eat this. 00:19:54.280 --> 00:19:57.380 I mean, yeah, you can't, you can, they could eat on their side of the screen. 00:19:57.380 --> 00:20:00.160 You could eat on your side of the screen, but it doesn't have the same dynamics. 00:20:00.540 --> 00:20:04.960 So, so we're processing through what would that E look like for us online? 00:20:05.060 --> 00:20:13.320 What would it, what would accomplish the same goal that eating in person does where people open up, where they share, walls come down. 00:20:13.420 --> 00:20:17.380 So we have the opportunity to connect over a, over a meal. 00:20:17.680 --> 00:20:27.840 What we discovered is that online, if you enjoy a shared experience, that's what the E looks like online, enjoying shared experiences. 00:20:27.840 --> 00:20:32.900 And we just really unpack what that looks like and the different ways that that's possible online. 00:20:33.320 --> 00:20:36.880 And then, you know, the similar thing is happening there. 00:20:36.980 --> 00:20:44.300 As you listen to people, as you're enjoying shared experiences, you'll find out and you'll discover ways that you can serve them online. 00:20:44.720 --> 00:20:49.160 And so in our book, we unpack what that looks like, a variety of ways to serve people online. 00:20:49.360 --> 00:20:52.780 And then, and then again, being able to share your story. 00:20:53.240 --> 00:21:05.660 So some of the blessed, all the, I think I would say all the blessed practices in person or similar to online, except that E, that was when we had to wrestle with a little bit and go, what, what accomplishes that same connection goal online? 00:21:05.880 --> 00:21:07.280 And it's enjoying shared experiences. 00:21:07.280 --> 00:21:16.560 So begin with prayer, listen, enjoy shared experiences, and serve and share the gospel and share your story with Jesus. 00:21:17.060 --> 00:21:17.240 Yeah. 00:21:17.380 --> 00:21:22.160 And that framework works so well in digital environments. 00:21:22.700 --> 00:21:28.820 I, you know, I can remember, I mean, I just, I could feel like I could do a whole podcast on each one. 00:21:29.060 --> 00:21:48.240 And even like, for me, like the most, I just, I don't want to say the most important, but the most, the one that we, the church struggle with the most, and the one that I think that individuals have the opportunity to stand above the church in many ways in reaching people is through listening. 00:21:48.920 --> 00:21:53.360 You know, so often we, we, the church, hey, you know what, listen to this sermon. 00:21:53.360 --> 00:21:57.980 And you'd listen to me talk and really to do effective digital ministry. 00:21:58.520 --> 00:22:07.700 It's not to build the trust that allows you the credibility to speak at a spiritual level to a stranger, to another person. 00:22:08.580 --> 00:22:13.140 It's, it's listening and, and, and church, like that's the opportunity. 00:22:13.440 --> 00:22:22.560 Digital missionary, person that's out there, build that relationship off of listening, not off of, of platforming and pushing your agenda. 00:22:22.560 --> 00:22:25.420 But take the time to, to listen to them. 00:22:25.640 --> 00:22:35.380 And, and with prayer infused Holy spirit, allow God to speak through you at some point, but that's not right off the bat. 00:22:35.480 --> 00:22:43.560 And that's what, that's what I think we, the, the current 2023 version of a physical church doing digital ministry. 00:22:43.560 --> 00:22:47.100 That's what I don't think, I don't think as a general role, we get that. 00:22:47.220 --> 00:22:49.800 Maybe I'm overstating, but definitely excited about it. 00:22:49.800 --> 00:22:54.720 You know, I was just going to say, I agree that I think part of what this book does is help people think as a missionary, right? 00:22:54.740 --> 00:22:58.780 We don't really think, we don't really train every believer as a missionary. 00:22:58.780 --> 00:23:06.240 And the goal of this framework is to do that, help people think as a missionary, which means that you don't come with your own idea and then try to sell it on people. 00:23:06.720 --> 00:23:23.500 You, you go into that space, you listen to the community and then you, you adjust how you share, how you build relationships and how you share the gospel based on that unique context and what you've discovered through the listening part. 00:23:23.580 --> 00:23:27.840 So I agree with you a hundred percent that that, that, that, that listening piece cannot be overlooked. 00:23:27.980 --> 00:23:29.580 It can't be underestimated. 00:23:29.740 --> 00:23:31.940 It cannot be neglected on any of that. 00:23:32.140 --> 00:23:42.560 I can remember getting together, you know, when, when, when we first started talking about this and when Dave, I mean, literally when Dave pitched the idea to me, I'm like, how are we going to eat together? 00:23:42.560 --> 00:23:47.700 Like that does, that does not make any sense, Dave, like this, what, what does this, what does this look like? 00:23:47.740 --> 00:23:48.780 What are you actually doing? 00:23:48.860 --> 00:23:52.880 And, and, and it's interesting for a season, I actually did, I did a couple of podcasts. 00:23:52.980 --> 00:24:01.020 You can actually go back, we'll throw it in the show notes, but you know, we, I brought on John Ferguson, you know, and kind of getting his take on, on what blessed was. 00:24:01.020 --> 00:24:02.300 And we did a podcast with him. 00:24:03.140 --> 00:24:16.720 We did a round table with Dave where we brought in Dr. John, you were there and brought on maybe 15 or 20 different digital and, and metaverse pastors and planters and, and just pitched the idea to them. 00:24:16.720 --> 00:24:22.180 And, and, and I can remember asking, hey, how do we do this whole eat thing? 00:24:22.740 --> 00:24:25.560 What, what is eat and how do we represent this? 00:24:25.600 --> 00:24:26.680 What does this look like digitally? 00:24:27.200 --> 00:24:31.340 And so I can remember, I can remember Mark Lutz from Lux Digital Church. 00:24:31.340 --> 00:24:32.660 It's a, it's a video game church. 00:24:32.660 --> 00:24:41.140 We're actually doing a podcast with him here in a couple of weeks, but you know, Mark, Mark's like, I, I can't, I, I literally, I think he said this verbatim. 00:24:41.280 --> 00:24:54.900 I can't speak for someone else and everybody else, but I know like when I am, am connecting with people at that emotional level, building that credibility, that's allowing me an opportunity to speak into their lives. 00:24:55.720 --> 00:25:01.920 I get that, um, I get that by experiencing a video game, by playing a video game with them and getting that shared experience. 00:25:02.620 --> 00:25:08.360 And he said that, and I literally, it was, it was like, you know, a, a brick just fell in the room. 00:25:08.460 --> 00:25:09.580 Like, it just was like, boom. 00:25:09.680 --> 00:25:12.720 Like the power of, and it was like, okay. 00:25:13.040 --> 00:25:32.880 And it just like resonated afterwards, voice after voice, talking about their shared experiences and how their church through experiences, they're connecting to build the, the relationship that allows them the credibility, the trust that to speak towards, uh, the kingdom and allowing the Holy Spirit to move in that way. 00:25:32.960 --> 00:25:38.360 And so definitely excited about seeing how all this, this comes together. 00:25:38.700 --> 00:25:46.860 Now, John, John, let me ask you, like when you, cause when you talk about, Hey, I wrote, I, I, I, I told somebody the other day, I was like, yeah, I just wrote a book. 00:25:47.320 --> 00:25:48.300 And they're like, what? 00:25:48.360 --> 00:25:50.780 I was like, you know, Oh, I wrote a book about being a digital missionary. 00:25:51.480 --> 00:25:57.540 Like the look on their face was one that was like, what are you even talking about? 00:25:58.000 --> 00:26:04.660 Like, do you have, do you have any of those stories, any of those conversations where it's, it's like people don't understand the idea of the digital missionary? 00:26:05.120 --> 00:26:07.180 Why, why, why is this such a radical concept? 00:26:07.180 --> 00:26:13.180 I think, unfortunately for a lot of believers, the concept of being a missionary is, is foreign. 00:26:14.160 --> 00:26:15.880 And so there's that. 00:26:19.600 --> 00:26:22.220 The traditional view of, because, okay, think about it. 00:26:22.420 --> 00:26:33.800 If my view of a missionary is only somebody that goes to another country, then when you say digital missionary, I'm confused as to what you're talking about. 00:26:34.720 --> 00:26:36.980 I don't, I don't even know how that happens. 00:26:38.100 --> 00:26:48.000 So, so part of the, the big, the question mark that pops up on top of people's head when you mentioned digital missionary, is there not, there's a lack of clarity on what a missionary is. 00:26:48.000 --> 00:26:49.260 Jesus was a missionary. 00:26:49.600 --> 00:26:59.740 Jesus literally left his home on a mission to come to the earth with a message to carry out the father's will and live, die, be raised again. 00:26:59.920 --> 00:27:00.900 And then he went back home. 00:27:01.100 --> 00:27:04.080 Like that, that was a missionary mission. 00:27:04.220 --> 00:27:04.420 Right. 00:27:04.960 --> 00:27:07.420 And then he says, I'm going to send you to go to the same thing. 00:27:07.480 --> 00:27:10.360 I'm sending you as a father sent me, I'm sending you John 20 verse 21. 00:27:11.160 --> 00:27:22.600 So for, so part of the shift that needs to happen for people to understand, even just the phrase digital missionary, is understanding what digital, what missionary is, that every Christian is one of those. 00:27:22.680 --> 00:27:29.680 So I think it was Charles Spurgeon or DL Moody, one of them who said, every Christian is either a missionary or an imposter, right? 00:27:29.740 --> 00:27:35.740 And even the, what made the Moravians and their movement so powerful is that they really believe that every Christian is a missionary. 00:27:36.140 --> 00:27:38.060 So one, that's one of the things we got to get back to. 00:27:38.180 --> 00:27:45.120 And so, because we're not there, digital missionary is confusing because there's confusion about missionary. 00:27:45.640 --> 00:27:52.100 So then digital, sometimes people don't, it's not in their lingo to use the word digital as much as it is for some of us. 00:27:52.680 --> 00:28:04.020 So some people that might say online, like, you know, if you say online missionary, that might be a little more clear, but, but digital encompasses a lot of that, of that space, whether it's on, because it's not just online. 00:28:04.260 --> 00:28:06.520 I can, I can be sharing the gospels through text messages. 00:28:06.520 --> 00:28:09.620 That's digital, not online, but it's digital, right? 00:28:10.060 --> 00:28:11.000 Or on Zoom. 00:28:11.000 --> 00:28:20.940 And so digital, it just encompasses the use of technology, you know, web two, it's like web three, which we talk about in the book, virtual and things like that. 00:28:21.240 --> 00:28:30.980 But for the most part, the web two technology, carrying them, carrying out the mission of Jesus in digital spaces, digital missionary. 00:28:31.320 --> 00:28:35.560 I kind of tested out that phrase on my own Facebook page. 00:28:35.560 --> 00:28:45.360 And I said, I said, how, how would you, how many of you, something to the effect of how many of you would be interested in learning about how to become a digital missionary? 00:28:45.800 --> 00:28:49.580 And some people, they just got it immediately because they knew digital, they knew missionary. 00:28:49.700 --> 00:28:52.700 And they're like, I love the way that sounds like, see, some people got it. 00:28:52.920 --> 00:28:53.960 I love where that sounds. 00:28:54.120 --> 00:28:54.640 Ooh, that's cool. 00:28:54.700 --> 00:28:55.000 That's cool. 00:28:55.220 --> 00:28:56.320 Others were like, well, what do you mean? 00:28:56.560 --> 00:28:57.760 You know, and then just explain it. 00:28:57.820 --> 00:29:02.780 But, but for some people it just, it resonates and they can see, they can clearly put digital missionary together. 00:29:02.780 --> 00:29:05.980 And it's, it's not a big leap for them to understand what that, what that means. 00:29:06.560 --> 00:29:18.160 Um, but nevertheless, I think, uh, I think this book is just going to help even expand the concept of every Christian being a missionary, whether it's in person or in digital space or virtual space. 00:29:18.160 --> 00:29:20.480 Yeah, I, I, I, I love that. 00:29:20.620 --> 00:29:24.080 Now, let me ask, let me pull, pull the thread on that a little, a little bit more. 00:29:24.480 --> 00:29:34.940 You know, they're, they're, because you're a digital church, because you're doing a church in a digital community, uh, like you understand the digital mission field. 00:29:35.160 --> 00:29:51.000 Um, there, there are, there are some, you know, contemporaries, people, I'm sure that, that you're running in within your church leadership circles that, that struggle with the recognizing the digital community and the digital mission field, the metaverse mission field as well. 00:29:51.160 --> 00:29:53.480 Like, how do you address that, that challenge? 00:29:53.480 --> 00:30:00.640 How do you help people understand, uh, the digital and the metaverse, the potential of the digital and metaverse communities? 00:30:01.100 --> 00:30:01.200 Yeah. 00:30:01.280 --> 00:30:09.120 One of the things I do in those conversations is, um, uh, honestly, to try to get a gauge of where their heart is. 00:30:09.120 --> 00:30:14.360 Like, are they wanting to learn about this, to understand it, or are they wanting to, like, debate? 00:30:14.480 --> 00:30:16.100 Like, I'm not interested in debating about it. 00:30:16.240 --> 00:30:19.940 It's just, it's just, some people, that's just where they are, and that's okay. 00:30:20.260 --> 00:30:25.360 Um, but others are trying to learn, to really grow, to try to understand it, to see if they want to get into it or not. 00:30:25.860 --> 00:30:36.520 And so part of the thing that I do there in those conversations is say, get your mind off of the, the, um, the, um, the, the method in the medium, right? 00:30:36.520 --> 00:30:38.100 Get your mind off of the medium, right? 00:30:38.340 --> 00:30:41.620 Digital, online, virtual, that's, that's the medium. 00:30:41.840 --> 00:30:44.300 And get your mind onto the mission. 00:30:44.680 --> 00:30:49.020 We're here to reach people with the gospel of Jesus, right? 00:30:49.080 --> 00:30:52.880 Like, let's just, let's, so we want to start off with where we agree here, right? 00:30:52.900 --> 00:30:54.400 We want to reach the people. 00:30:54.780 --> 00:31:00.740 Our mission is to show the message of the gospel with people wherever they are, right? 00:31:00.860 --> 00:31:02.120 Yeah, yeah, where they are. 00:31:02.200 --> 00:31:09.400 Okay, so we see in the New Testament, um, one, Christ coming from heaven to earth, right? 00:31:09.800 --> 00:31:11.940 Whole nother context, right? 00:31:12.020 --> 00:31:15.240 He even had to come in a human being in a manger, the whole deal. 00:31:15.400 --> 00:31:16.220 Whole nother context. 00:31:17.220 --> 00:31:18.940 He had to speak Aramaic. 00:31:19.080 --> 00:31:23.580 He had to speak a human language to communicate to human beings in this context. 00:31:25.040 --> 00:31:35.400 And, um, so if our mission is to take the message of the gospel to people wherever they are, Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, other most parts of the world, that kind of thing. 00:31:35.400 --> 00:31:49.220 Um, then we look at the mediums that are available for communication, for travel as just that, just mediums to reach people, to go where people are. 00:31:50.060 --> 00:31:55.900 Whether they're in another country, they're going to take a plane, we're going to take a boat, we're going to drive to another state, where they are. 00:31:55.980 --> 00:32:03.000 We, you know, all along the way, people have used whatever mediums were available based on the level of technology that was available. 00:32:03.260 --> 00:32:06.280 They've used all those mediums to share the gospel. 00:32:06.480 --> 00:32:08.140 So, Paul is writing letters. 00:32:08.580 --> 00:32:09.880 Paul is sailing on ships. 00:32:10.340 --> 00:32:11.880 No doubt he did some walking. 00:32:12.480 --> 00:32:16.860 Um, he was, you know, traveling to Damascus on some kind of an animal or whatever. 00:32:17.260 --> 00:32:20.260 So, everything that was available was used to reach people. 00:32:20.260 --> 00:32:29.880 So, for us, um, like, get out of your mind, whatever negative connotations you have with digital or virtual, those are just mediums. 00:32:30.120 --> 00:32:32.120 As a medium, they're neutral. 00:32:32.500 --> 00:32:34.180 They're neither positive or negative. 00:32:34.460 --> 00:32:37.320 How we use them can be positive or negative. 00:32:37.780 --> 00:32:49.460 And so, some people get this whole idea, you know, when Life.Church first came out with the YouVersion, the digital Bible, man, the church had a problem with that. 00:32:50.260 --> 00:32:52.480 Well, you gotta, you gotta flip through the pages. 00:32:52.620 --> 00:32:53.780 You gotta be able to highlight stuff. 00:32:53.940 --> 00:32:56.780 Okay, well, stay on that train if you want to. 00:32:57.120 --> 00:32:58.480 But they did what they did. 00:32:58.480 --> 00:33:06.240 And 500 million downloads later, you know, there, there is a deal. 00:33:06.420 --> 00:33:09.340 And so, now churches have YouVersion Bible apps as well. 00:33:09.960 --> 00:33:14.040 Um, when, when, when, when the internet first started, church had an issue with that. 00:33:14.200 --> 00:33:16.580 Doing online, oh, is this demonic, is this and that. 00:33:16.760 --> 00:33:25.500 Like, we have a tendency to demonize everything that's new because of the potential for it to be used for negative purposes. 00:33:25.860 --> 00:33:33.360 But the reality is, well, the creativity and the innovation is looking at how things can be used positively to accomplish our mission. 00:33:33.720 --> 00:33:40.800 So, I challenge people to put the mission first, the mission first, before the method, before the medium, put the mission first. 00:33:41.120 --> 00:33:46.280 Are you really wanting to reach people wherever they are with whatever means are available? 00:33:46.860 --> 00:33:50.060 When the answer is yes, then we, then we can talk about all these other kinds of things. 00:33:50.420 --> 00:33:51.900 So, there's online ministry. 00:33:52.360 --> 00:33:55.540 You know what, there's, there's negative things online. 00:33:55.900 --> 00:33:56.260 Absolutely. 00:33:56.620 --> 00:34:00.120 But we don't just stay off of online because there's negative things on there. 00:34:00.460 --> 00:34:04.520 We invade that space with the message because people are still online. 00:34:04.740 --> 00:34:07.240 So, we bring our message, the message of the gospel online. 00:34:07.520 --> 00:34:12.600 And so, so, so, so depending on where people are stuck at, that's what I kind of approach. 00:34:13.380 --> 00:34:16.360 Generally, that's my approach is, is put the mission first. 00:34:17.020 --> 00:34:23.580 Get the gospel to people and how we do it, you can keep on doing it in person if you want to. 00:34:24.020 --> 00:34:32.000 But, but, but online is definitely some great, great avenues for us to carry out the mission of the Great Commission, for sure. 00:34:32.320 --> 00:34:33.140 Totally and completely. 00:34:33.360 --> 00:34:36.160 And, and there's going to be, I mean, I've, I've, I've said this before. 00:34:36.260 --> 00:34:37.600 I'm, I'm, I'm a, I'm a digital guy. 00:34:38.000 --> 00:34:47.480 And there's going to come a time when, when digital is, is not effective for helping with the Great Commission, where, where the metaverse is, is not as, as helpful towards that. 00:34:47.580 --> 00:34:53.820 And, and, you know, I'm publicly saying, whatever is more helpful at that moment, I'll be jumping ship towards that. 00:34:53.820 --> 00:35:04.280 Because for me, it's, it's, it's the opportunity to contribute to the mission, to contribute to the Great Commission, to reach that different type of person than the physical buildings are not reaching. 00:35:04.280 --> 00:35:08.600 The nuns and the duns that you've so eloquently talked about here in this podcast. 00:35:08.980 --> 00:35:24.140 And so that digital is that option today, which is why the, the digital and the metaverse missionary is important, which is why the blessed practices, why we need to begin with prayer, listen, create and engage and enjoy shared experiences, why we need to serve. 00:35:24.620 --> 00:35:35.180 By the way, let's just call out right there, begin with prayer, listen, engage and share, enjoy shared experiences and, and serve. 00:35:36.200 --> 00:35:38.120 All four of those call for humility. 00:35:38.680 --> 00:35:43.560 Like, it is very hard to be arrogant and do any of those top four. 00:35:44.440 --> 00:35:53.680 And so our posture is one that the Holy Spirit is, is filling and fulfilling within us, where we are calling the Holy Spirit to move in digital and metaverse space. 00:35:54.480 --> 00:35:57.000 Can the, can the Holy Spirit move in digital and metaverse space? 00:35:57.060 --> 00:36:04.340 Dr. John, let me ask you, as the lead pastor of Hearts Like His for two years, have you seen the Holy Spirit move in digital space in the past two years? 00:36:04.340 --> 00:36:07.140 Yeah, just, just, just a little bit, just a little bit. 00:36:07.600 --> 00:36:10.960 He seems to struggle at times, but I've seen him produce a little bit of fruit. 00:36:13.320 --> 00:36:23.680 You know, it's, it's these things where so often we say that it's not possible or we're told it's not possible, but when you really dig in, it's actually happening on a regular basis. 00:36:24.320 --> 00:36:25.440 On a regular basis, yeah. 00:36:25.440 --> 00:36:31.800 And even like, I'm going to talk specifically to the church staff person out there, because I know you're, you'd listen to the podcast here. 00:36:32.900 --> 00:36:41.480 Like, look at your ministry and start to see where the Holy Spirit is moving and start to celebrate those moments within the life of your ministry. 00:36:42.140 --> 00:36:44.860 Now, now, Dr. John, I'm going, I'm going to pivot a little bit here. 00:36:45.280 --> 00:36:46.520 We've, we've talked about the book. 00:36:46.820 --> 00:36:53.260 We've talked about how the book is aimed at, you know, at the, not at a church leader. 00:36:53.380 --> 00:37:03.840 The book is more aimed at the church attender or the duns, at a normal person and helping a normal person have a framework to share Jesus and digital metaverse. 00:37:04.620 --> 00:37:19.360 What are, how does this book, how does this book apply to a, a physical church staff person, a, an online pastor, an executive pastor, someone that's at a, a physical church? 00:37:19.420 --> 00:37:21.120 Are there application points? 00:37:21.200 --> 00:37:22.500 What, what would this look like? 00:37:23.020 --> 00:37:26.820 Um, what would bless look like even within their own church in digital? 00:37:27.040 --> 00:37:27.320 Yeah. 00:37:27.500 --> 00:37:27.640 Yeah. 00:37:27.640 --> 00:37:28.640 I, I, okay. 00:37:28.660 --> 00:37:32.600 Here's, what's amazing about, about this whole using bless online. 00:37:33.120 --> 00:37:36.940 Um, so your question, how, how does this apply to a church staff? 00:37:37.160 --> 00:37:47.120 Every person on a church staff is there to mobilize that church for the mission of Christ. 00:37:47.620 --> 00:37:51.340 Like whether you are a graphic designer or senior pastor, it doesn't matter. 00:37:51.480 --> 00:38:00.940 Every person is there to help that church get activated in the mission of Christ, help them grow in their own walk with Christ and, and share the gospel. 00:38:01.140 --> 00:38:01.380 Right. 00:38:01.440 --> 00:38:06.040 So growing personally with God, being in community with each other, sharing the gospel with the world. 00:38:06.400 --> 00:38:17.500 And so what bless does is it gives staff members another tool to multiply the ministry of any physical church, right? 00:38:17.500 --> 00:38:30.460 And a couple of ways to multiply the ministry of the physical church by giving a tool to Christians that's going to help them carry the mission forward. 00:38:30.960 --> 00:38:46.720 And, and, and, and it, it kind of leans against the paradigm of ministry at a church being done primarily by a small group of paid staff members, or even the larger group of leadership volunteers. 00:38:47.860 --> 00:38:53.840 Um, this tool helps mobilize every person in your church for the mission. 00:38:54.340 --> 00:38:57.280 So that multiplies your ministry potential right there. 00:38:57.760 --> 00:39:04.040 But then secondly, because we're talking about doing something online, most churches now have an online ministry. 00:39:04.420 --> 00:39:12.280 And, but that online ministry is mainly, again, they've, they've kind of mirrored the staff produced ministry that's in person. 00:39:12.520 --> 00:39:16.720 They're doing that online, where it's staff produced ministry online. 00:39:17.240 --> 00:39:27.600 And so the same, um, problem can be overcome where you have the majority of people sitting there and they're not engaged in the mission that you wanted to mobilize into the mission. 00:39:27.820 --> 00:39:33.040 Now you're doing that, not just in person, because the blessing can do it in person, but you're also doing it online. 00:39:33.420 --> 00:39:45.080 So now you have your, your members of your church who are online, spending hours of time anyway, that can compliment your online ministry by helping reach out to more people online. 00:39:45.080 --> 00:39:51.000 And now they have a church that they can connect them to for those who are in a local, you know, the proximity of a local church. 00:39:51.460 --> 00:40:00.580 Man, you have people in your, in your church doing online ministry that can bring people, instead of trying to depend on just Facebook ads, your church's Facebook ads. 00:40:01.080 --> 00:40:10.940 But you have for free, you have your 50, your 100, your thousand members who are doing online ministry, leading people to Jesus and can bring them back into your church. 00:40:11.200 --> 00:40:13.020 Like that's just, that's a, that's a no brainer. 00:40:13.320 --> 00:40:32.060 So not only does this tool help that staff become force multipliers and mobilizing the members of your church to do ministry in person and online, but then secondly, it can be reaching people who are not even close enough for your physical community, but you can generate online deceptive communities as well. 00:40:34.060 --> 00:40:36.160 So let me summarize the two things by saying this. 00:40:36.160 --> 00:40:39.940 Number one, helps mobilize more people, but number two, this is the thing I was trying to get to. 00:40:40.260 --> 00:40:44.440 It reaches the people who will never, no matter what you do, walk into your building. 00:40:45.320 --> 00:40:47.940 They will, and that's the one thing I don't think churches are really trying to get. 00:40:48.040 --> 00:41:00.600 They think if we, if we get the better graphics, a more relevant worship service, beef up our website and our app, you know, a great, more interesting teaching series that more people from our community are going to come. 00:41:00.900 --> 00:41:17.040 So, no, they're not, there's a, there's a, there's a segment about 30, 35% of people who are interested in spiritual conversations, interested in hearing about the gospel, who are never, ever, no matter what, walk through your door. 00:41:17.040 --> 00:41:19.500 I think you said the Pew or Barnard research was talking about that. 00:41:19.660 --> 00:41:20.660 They will never, ever do it. 00:41:20.960 --> 00:41:26.320 So we have to go out to get them, meet them where they are, and then disciple them where they are. 00:41:26.760 --> 00:41:38.180 And that's where this tool helps reach those people who are not coming into your door, you know, but they'll come to your house or they'll meet with you on Zoom or meet with you in a Facebook chat or whatever, but they're just not going to come to your, to your door. 00:41:38.380 --> 00:41:46.900 So when you mobilize people in your church to engage them with the mission, and then they're able to reach people who are not going to walk through your door, but they'll see them online, take them online. 00:41:47.340 --> 00:41:54.440 That, that right there multiplies, those two dynamics, multiplies the impact of the ministry that your church can have in person and online. 00:41:54.660 --> 00:41:55.960 And bless is a great tool to do it with. 00:41:56.120 --> 00:41:58.980 Yeah, so, so well said with all that. 00:41:58.980 --> 00:42:07.520 And guys, we believe, guys, gals, podcast listeners, audience out there, I mean, Exponential is giving this resource away for free. 00:42:07.960 --> 00:42:11.280 So I'm literally not saying this, trying to make a buck. 00:42:11.640 --> 00:42:13.380 This is a free resource. 00:42:14.140 --> 00:42:26.400 Pastor, church worker that's listening to this podcast, I challenge you, pull five to 10 people out of your ministry that are comfortable in digital community. 00:42:26.560 --> 00:42:27.980 They're comfortable in social media. 00:42:28.380 --> 00:42:30.020 They're comfortable in some of these environments. 00:42:30.660 --> 00:42:32.500 Give them the PDF for free. 00:42:32.600 --> 00:42:34.200 I'm not making a buck on this. 00:42:34.620 --> 00:42:37.860 And let them read it and challenge them to do it. 00:42:37.960 --> 00:42:42.060 Like, I almost want to do like a Shadrach, Meshach, Abednego test here. 00:42:42.380 --> 00:42:51.620 You do this, see the results that you're going to get off of it six months, 12 months from now, and compare it to what's happening within the church. 00:42:51.820 --> 00:43:04.440 Because I promise you this, maybe it's not reaching apples to apples numbers, but dollar to dollar, the people that you're going to reach off of a dozen people that are motivated and serving as digital missionaries. 00:43:04.640 --> 00:43:05.240 You're not, you're not. 00:43:05.560 --> 00:43:07.620 It's a free opportunity. 00:43:08.420 --> 00:43:11.220 The cost on this is minimal. 00:43:11.780 --> 00:43:17.580 But what you're going to get is you're creating a culture that is evangelism. 00:43:17.760 --> 00:43:19.640 You're creating a culture of humility. 00:43:19.980 --> 00:43:23.740 You're creating a culture of prayer dependency. 00:43:23.980 --> 00:43:27.080 You're creating a culture of listening to the Holy Spirit. 00:43:27.520 --> 00:43:37.140 And you're engaging all of that in a new community that, by the way, your church is probably not tapping into effectively if all you're doing is streaming services online. 00:43:37.340 --> 00:43:42.320 Like, you literally have nothing to lose by doing this. 00:43:42.780 --> 00:43:46.340 You're not having to shell out $100,000 for a new studio. 00:43:46.640 --> 00:43:48.760 You're not having to hire a new person. 00:43:48.920 --> 00:43:56.380 You're creating a bivocational movement, a volunteer movement, a person-led movement. 00:43:56.680 --> 00:44:01.580 And I would suspect, actually, I said this, I said this statement the other day to a church because we're having this conversation. 00:44:02.300 --> 00:44:03.400 I said, you know what? 00:44:03.440 --> 00:44:11.420 I suspect at some level, if this is successful and if you really do lean into it, you'll create an environment where your volunteers are leading your staff. 00:44:11.900 --> 00:44:28.600 Like, you will create such a prayer-dependent culture that, in many ways, the volunteers, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego's that are experimenting with this will become at a higher level, I would suspect, in the majority of the staff that are working there. 00:44:28.960 --> 00:44:31.240 That may be a—I may be overstating. 00:44:31.780 --> 00:44:38.980 But the heart of this is that you've got nothing to lose by giving a shot and doing something like this within the church. 00:44:39.680 --> 00:44:43.840 And to this end, man, we're even opening up and doing some things. 00:44:43.840 --> 00:45:05.440 We're creating an online course for this that is set up for a volunteer where we're reinforcing a lot of the things that we've talked about within the book and the resource, just to make it more accessible, easier in video format, to be a resource to help with some of these things. 00:45:05.440 --> 00:45:22.140 And whether you're an individual that's being motivated to do this or whether you're in a church that's wanting to adopt this and adapt this, more information on that is at thechurch.digital slash bless course. 00:45:23.600 --> 00:45:30.980 Listen, I strongly believe in digital evangelism. 00:45:31.180 --> 00:45:33.500 I believe in what we're talking about here. 00:45:33.860 --> 00:45:43.140 I believe that the stuff that Dr. John and others like him that are reaching into digital communities, that are engaging in digital space, I'm seeing them. 00:45:43.220 --> 00:45:49.580 I'm hearing stories of them reaching people that are done with the physical buildings. 00:45:49.780 --> 00:45:51.780 They're done with the established church. 00:45:51.960 --> 00:45:53.380 They're not coming back. 00:45:53.420 --> 00:45:57.220 Or there's no interest in that idea at all. 00:45:57.380 --> 00:46:07.000 And the idea of approaching with humility and listening and building that relationship in these communities digitally, guys, we've seen it be so effective. 00:46:07.620 --> 00:46:14.400 I would encourage you, buy the book, check it out, download the book, check out the course, whatever it takes towards this. 00:46:14.460 --> 00:46:19.840 But there's huge opportunities that your church can leverage in a big way. 00:46:20.380 --> 00:46:28.140 You know, and I'll just say this real quick, like we even, we talk about, you know, we talk like about hearts, excuse me, hearts like his is your church. 00:46:28.260 --> 00:46:32.760 We talk about he gets us where, you know, a lot of churches have been hesitant. 00:46:32.980 --> 00:46:34.120 I've had the conversations. 00:46:34.420 --> 00:46:44.440 They've been hesitant to adopt he gets us because the conversations are, Jeff, our staff just don't have time to constantly engage with this. 00:46:45.280 --> 00:46:54.120 And, you know, I'm like, people, you've got, you've got your audience, you've got your members, you've got your people in the pews. 00:46:54.280 --> 00:46:56.760 This is a missional opportunity for them. 00:46:57.100 --> 00:46:58.720 And I wouldn't even go as far. 00:46:58.820 --> 00:47:01.560 And we're having these conversations with he gets us and glue as well. 00:47:01.940 --> 00:47:10.580 I believe this book is the framework, is the model to create a he gets us volunteer. 00:47:10.960 --> 00:47:19.800 Like the church, how do I prepare somebody in the pew to engage with someone that, a spiritual explorer that comes in through he gets us? 00:47:20.360 --> 00:47:27.060 My suggestion would be give them the free PDF that you can download from the church.digital slash bless book. 00:47:27.440 --> 00:47:32.120 Give them the online course that you can buy for, you know, really cheap. 00:47:32.300 --> 00:47:40.480 And the heart of this is that you are now equipping someone to do ministry through he gets us. 00:47:41.140 --> 00:47:48.540 There's a priesthood of all believers opportunity, a movement that would come if we would release our people, equip them and release them. 00:47:48.960 --> 00:47:58.960 And this book, this blessed practices, sharing Jesus online that Dr. John and I wrote, I think is a big move towards creating these movements in digital and metaverse space. 00:47:59.400 --> 00:48:00.100 Yeah, it is. 00:48:00.100 --> 00:48:06.520 I think one of the shifts that is needing to happen is for churches to shift from being teaching centers to training centers. 00:48:07.460 --> 00:48:11.020 And a lot of the teaching focuses just on the pastor. 00:48:11.500 --> 00:48:28.800 And the problem is when the teaching focuses on the pastor or the pastoral teaching team, then you can tell people all day that they should be doing the mission engaged, but they're not going to do that because you've created context where the focus is on you as a teacher. 00:48:29.200 --> 00:48:33.680 And people don't see themselves as a teacher, so they're not going to duplicate what you're doing. 00:48:34.840 --> 00:48:41.080 And so part of that teaching has a shift to more training and equipping where people are learning how to do things different. 00:48:41.300 --> 00:48:44.340 We're not just becoming more educated, but we're becoming more engaged. 00:48:44.880 --> 00:48:46.480 So teaching helps educate people. 00:48:46.580 --> 00:48:49.200 It doesn't always cause them to be engaged in the mission. 00:48:49.980 --> 00:48:52.160 Training and equipping, right? 00:48:52.320 --> 00:48:54.180 Equipping leads to engagement. 00:48:54.720 --> 00:48:56.780 But teaching and training leads to education. 00:48:57.640 --> 00:49:05.960 And so this book is, I think it's going to meet, it's going to quench the thirst for Christians who are saying, I want to tell me what to do. 00:49:06.560 --> 00:49:08.080 Train me, equip me. 00:49:08.220 --> 00:49:09.440 I want to do this. 00:49:09.520 --> 00:49:17.200 I'm tired of seeing people on my newsfeed or whatever and just feeling uncomfortable because I don't know what to do, what to say to them, how to start a relationship with them. 00:49:17.200 --> 00:49:26.380 And so this is going to, a tool that helps kind of fill that gap and quench that thirst for the believers who are saying, I want to, I want to, I want to get in the game. 00:49:26.640 --> 00:49:30.980 Or for churches saying, we want our people to get in the game, what's a good tool to do that with? 00:49:31.260 --> 00:49:32.780 I think this answers that question. 00:49:33.060 --> 00:49:33.360 Beautiful. 00:49:33.540 --> 00:49:36.140 Moving from teaching to training. 00:49:36.340 --> 00:49:38.040 That is such, such a good word. 00:49:38.100 --> 00:49:38.320 You know what? 00:49:38.340 --> 00:49:39.500 I think we're going to land the plane there. 00:49:39.640 --> 00:49:40.580 That was great. 00:49:41.080 --> 00:49:43.880 As we're wrapping up here, Dr. John, any closing thoughts? 00:49:44.080 --> 00:49:55.020 I'm just looking forward to seeing what the Holy Spirit does because I think at the end of the day, what this book is going to do is help Christians take either one step or the next step. 00:49:55.120 --> 00:50:00.060 I think some people are doing something, but they don't know where they get to a place where they don't know what to do now. 00:50:00.240 --> 00:50:03.360 Like maybe they're building relationships, but they don't know how to bring up Jesus now. 00:50:03.460 --> 00:50:09.640 They don't know how to, you know, so I think this book is going to help people either take the first step or a next step if they're already engaged. 00:50:09.640 --> 00:50:12.560 And so there's a lot of things that the Holy Spirit will do with that. 00:50:12.640 --> 00:50:25.980 So I'm looking forward to seeing it answer questions for people, get more Christians engaged, and ultimately see more people come to know Jesus Christ because of what the Holy Spirit is doing for the believers who are launching out into the deep. 00:50:26.340 --> 00:50:30.780 And in our case, that means online and digital and virtual spaces. 00:50:31.140 --> 00:50:34.660 So yeah, so thanks again for inviting me to be a part of this project. 00:50:35.160 --> 00:50:40.380 Oh, dude, I would do this with you again in a heartbeat. 00:50:41.440 --> 00:50:45.040 And so we're, through the Church Digital, we're working on publishing. 00:50:45.220 --> 00:50:48.300 I mean, honestly, I've already written Book Proposal 3 and 4. 00:50:48.560 --> 00:50:53.160 I've already submitted those off to some publishers and working towards that. 00:50:53.640 --> 00:50:58.740 I'm having conversations about 5 and 6, and so a book's 5 and 6 as well, published in 24. 00:50:59.300 --> 00:51:05.760 But Dr. John, you have an open invitation to work with me on something any time. 00:51:05.760 --> 00:51:11.240 And so I am sure there will be more coming from this relationship soon. 00:51:11.740 --> 00:51:12.960 But hey, we're going to land a plane. 00:51:13.020 --> 00:51:13.620 This has been great. 00:51:13.800 --> 00:51:16.640 You can buy the book, get the link to Amazon. 00:51:16.860 --> 00:51:22.520 You can download the PDF for free, Kindle, softcover, like all of that's at thechurch.digital 00:51:22.520 --> 00:51:24.540 slash bless book. 00:51:24.620 --> 00:51:25.560 The link's in the show notes. 00:51:25.900 --> 00:51:28.800 The online course, thechurch.digital slash bless course. 00:51:29.500 --> 00:51:35.060 And to be honest, we would love to dialogue with you on this. 00:51:35.060 --> 00:51:38.600 Dr. John's contact information is going to be in the show notes. 00:51:38.800 --> 00:51:42.860 And of course, you guys know how to find me on that. 00:51:42.980 --> 00:51:47.300 And so if there's questions on the book and some of the stuff that we're talking about, feel free to reach out. 00:51:47.760 --> 00:51:48.960 But check it out. 00:51:49.580 --> 00:51:50.700 We will also be at Expo Orlando. 00:51:51.440 --> 00:51:52.400 Dr. John and I will be. 00:51:52.940 --> 00:51:57.420 And so Dr. John's teaching a course on this at Expo Orlando. 00:51:57.820 --> 00:51:59.300 And so more information at that. 00:51:59.840 --> 00:52:00.840 Exponential.org. 00:52:00.980 --> 00:52:06.780 Exponential, thank you for publishing this and, you know, championing digital and metaverse movements like you guys are. 00:52:06.880 --> 00:52:14.420 It's awesome to see an organization so sold out and bought into digital metaverse like Leadership Network and Exponential is. 00:52:14.560 --> 00:52:15.340 So thank you for that. 00:52:15.700 --> 00:52:16.180 And you know what? 00:52:16.200 --> 00:52:17.960 We're going to land a plane right there. 00:52:17.960 --> 00:52:22.420 So for Dr. John, this is Jeff with the Church Digital and Digital Church Network. 00:52:22.840 --> 00:52:24.360 Thanks for jumping on the podcast here. 00:52:24.400 --> 00:52:25.320 We'll see you next time on the show. 00:52:25.800 --> 00:52:26.260 You all have a good day.