WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:04.460 Sometimes people just freak out when they hear deconstruction, and they think that absolutely 00:00:04.460 --> 00:00:09.420 you're deconstructing your faith. And that's not the case. I think in maybe not the vast 00:00:09.420 --> 00:00:13.020 majority of conversations, but I'd say at least half the conversations I have with people that 00:00:13.020 --> 00:00:18.620 are going through some sort of deconstruction, they're deconstructing the form and function of 00:00:18.620 --> 00:00:22.720 the church. They're not deconstructing their faith. Welcome to the Church Digital Podcast. 00:00:23.440 --> 00:00:27.500 Through this podcast, we'll talk about the technological innovations within the church. 00:00:27.780 --> 00:00:34.080 But more than tech for tech itself, we'll address deeper questions. Is disciple making possible 00:00:34.080 --> 00:00:39.840 digitally? How should we approach the digital mission field? Can a biblically grounded church 00:00:39.840 --> 00:00:46.000 operate in digital space? Oh, and where does the metaverse fit into all this? Whether you're a big 00:00:46.000 --> 00:00:51.740 or small church, an established church, or a startup church plant, the Church Digital's goal is to help 00:00:51.740 --> 00:00:56.940 churches like yours learn to be a multiplying church, digitally and physically. 00:00:57.560 --> 00:01:02.940 Our heart? That churches like yours will discover a newfound focus on disciple making that will 00:01:02.940 --> 00:01:07.900 revolutionize your church. And now, here's your host, Jeff Reed. 00:01:08.360 --> 00:01:12.960 Hey everybody, welcome to the Church Digital Podcast. Jeff Reed here, founder of the Church 00:01:12.960 --> 00:01:19.040 Digital, co-founder, Digital Church Network. And I have been wanting to have this conversation, 00:01:19.420 --> 00:01:26.400 to do this podcast for maybe close to a year. I met this guest close to a year ago. He probably 00:01:26.400 --> 00:01:33.640 doesn't even remember meeting me. But it was a great time. We were hanging out at Exponential Ventures. 00:01:33.780 --> 00:01:39.420 I want to say that was probably the Houston or San Antonio one. And I had the honor of being on a panel 00:01:39.420 --> 00:01:46.680 or something and sitting next to Brad Briscoe for a couple days. And I just was like, man, I really, 00:01:46.780 --> 00:01:54.220 I really like the way that this guy talks and thanks. I really want to talk to him and dig more. And just the event was so 00:01:54.220 --> 00:01:59.420 hectic and I didn't get a chance to follow up with him. And then I followed him on Twitter. 00:02:00.020 --> 00:02:07.660 And by the way, if you're looking for like the, and I told Brad this just off air. It's like, Brad, you're like one of my favorite Twitter followers. 00:02:07.660 --> 00:02:13.140 Like I would put you in the top five, maybe top three towards that, just because there's so much, 00:02:13.140 --> 00:02:19.840 so much wisdom, you know, these pearls that get dropped to talking about church and this new season 00:02:19.840 --> 00:02:24.820 and bivocational and a lot of this we're going to get into in the podcast. And every time I see some of these come up, 00:02:24.860 --> 00:02:28.480 like I make a mental note, I got to, I got to follow up. I got to, I got to DM Brad. 00:02:28.480 --> 00:02:32.940 I got to get back with Brad. And, uh, you know, it never, it never actually happened till now. 00:02:33.560 --> 00:02:37.740 And so we're finally actually having the conversation. And so Brad Briscoe, 00:02:37.740 --> 00:02:43.500 director of bivocational church planting for North American mission board. Thanks for jumping on, 00:02:43.580 --> 00:02:48.960 on the podcast. Well, Jeff, thanks for being consistent and, uh, uh, getting a connection. 00:02:48.960 --> 00:02:52.900 And, and actually it was in Austin. I know you went to a whole bunch of those meetings, 00:02:52.900 --> 00:02:56.520 but I think the one that we were at together was in, I think it was in Austin. 00:02:56.940 --> 00:03:03.380 You are right. It was, it was at, uh, it was, it was very, very cool. Yeah. That was totally my fault. 00:03:03.460 --> 00:03:07.640 That was, what church were we at? That's, that's a conversation for another day. I don't, I don't remember, 00:03:07.840 --> 00:03:11.940 but, but yeah, that was a good time. So yeah. And I'm looking forward to this. 00:03:12.300 --> 00:03:17.420 Totally. And completely. Thank you. Thanks for jumping on here, Brad. Now, right off the bat, 00:03:17.420 --> 00:03:24.820 um, I want to totally get into bivo and I want to get into deconstructing church. Cause, cause that's been a lot of 00:03:24.820 --> 00:03:30.940 some of our conversations on Twitter. Um, but I just, I want to call something out here. Cause this is, 00:03:31.020 --> 00:03:37.120 this is interesting. People who, who, who are active in digital ministry, uh, digital church planting, 00:03:37.120 --> 00:03:41.940 um, know that, you know, North American mission board, Southern Baptist convention, 00:03:41.940 --> 00:03:47.380 they're not always supportive of the digital ministry stuff. You know, I've, I've, I could probably tell 00:03:47.380 --> 00:03:52.780 some, some, some stories that actually shed, you know, not good light of them not being too excited 00:03:52.780 --> 00:03:58.880 about the idea of, uh, digital ministry and, and some of this really just trying to, to get back 00:03:58.880 --> 00:04:04.020 to the physical building. Um, are you just thinking so far out of the box with your Bible stuff that, 00:04:04.020 --> 00:04:09.680 that, that, that like that supplements or goes beyond like, what's your, what's your feedback or 00:04:09.680 --> 00:04:13.660 thoughts or what, what have you been, uh, reading even as you've been looking at the scenario? 00:04:13.660 --> 00:04:19.060 What is digital ministry, digital discipleship, uh, doing churches in digital space? What does that 00:04:19.060 --> 00:04:25.880 mean to you? Well, I think, um, I say all the time, we are all living in a rapidly increasing 00:04:25.880 --> 00:04:30.620 missionary context. So we absolutely have to think outside the box. And I think sometimes if we've had 00:04:30.620 --> 00:04:36.920 some quote unquote success in the way we've planted churches historically, it just, uh, we're just not 00:04:36.920 --> 00:04:41.620 forced to think outside the box. And I think sometimes that's, that could be the case with the 00:04:41.620 --> 00:04:46.220 Southern Baptist convention is that we've planted churches for a long time. We've been very successful 00:04:46.220 --> 00:04:51.800 at it, but I do think the context is radically, radically different than it used to be both inside 00:04:51.800 --> 00:04:55.880 the church and outside the church. So we have to think completely different. And I just think though, 00:04:55.880 --> 00:05:00.900 there are some networks and some denominations that haven't been forced to do that yet. And I think 00:05:00.900 --> 00:05:05.860 the digital space is one of those that, you know, we said before we got on air that I'm not surprised 00:05:05.860 --> 00:05:13.680 that you haven't found a lot of reception within kind of the SBC culture. Um, but it's unfortunate 00:05:13.680 --> 00:05:18.920 because it's, it's here, you know, it's just like with Bible Kobo. I say all the time that co-vocational 00:05:18.920 --> 00:05:24.840 church planning, I'm convinced is the single best missiological and financial strategy for planting a 00:05:24.840 --> 00:05:32.700 church. Uh, but we, we haven't in most networks or denominations, we haven't been forced to go there 00:05:32.700 --> 00:05:39.120 yet. Uh, but I would argue we're there. It's not just the future of church planting, it's the present. 00:05:39.120 --> 00:05:45.120 So, uh, I just think sometimes, you know, creativity and innovation, uh, until we're forced to, 00:05:45.200 --> 00:05:49.900 to go there, we, we don't go there, uh, on our own, uh, often, unfortunately. 00:05:49.900 --> 00:05:55.100 Yeah. That's, that's interesting. You know, some of the larger, the larger an organization gets, 00:05:55.100 --> 00:06:00.980 the more unwieldy it is and, and, and exploring different things and, and, and shaking the boat. 00:06:00.980 --> 00:06:05.920 And so that, that's, that's interesting. I've known, you know, like I've worked with, with SBC churches. 00:06:05.920 --> 00:06:12.860 And so it's not always, you know, the, everyone has that idea, but, um, uh, definitely options to, 00:06:12.940 --> 00:06:17.920 to explore. Well, hey, well, hey, let's do this. Let's just go ahead and, and dig in because I'm 00:06:17.920 --> 00:06:23.980 really excited about this first question. So like, I was funny, I was sitting at Thanksgiving. I'll set 00:06:23.980 --> 00:06:29.800 it up this way. I was sitting at Thanksgiving table. I, I just, I had just published, uh, the book. 00:06:29.880 --> 00:06:34.420 I'll even hold it up for the YouTube audience. Uh, VR in the metaverse church had just had this 00:06:34.420 --> 00:06:39.140 published through, through leadership network. And so I'm sitting at Thanksgiving table with my in-laws, 00:06:39.140 --> 00:06:45.380 uh, and telling them about this, uh, this book. And, uh, and so some of them were kind of looking at 00:06:45.380 --> 00:06:50.100 me side-eyed kind of like, not really sure about this whole virtual reality thing. And I, and I said, 00:06:50.160 --> 00:06:55.460 you know what I said, to be honest, like, like the, the spirituality, like the Jesus stuff, like I'm 00:06:55.460 --> 00:07:02.820 not, I'm not deconstructing Christ. I'm deconstructing the church. I'm deconstructing what that opportunity 00:07:02.820 --> 00:07:08.860 looks like thinking, Oh, this is the solid answer. This is perfect. This is going to appease everyone. 00:07:09.380 --> 00:07:15.980 It didn't. It actually started a hailstorm, hell fire, brimstone falling from the sky, 00:07:16.220 --> 00:07:22.660 the earth split open. And actually like there was a war at the idea of, of deconstructing church. 00:07:22.820 --> 00:07:27.380 Now I know from following you on Twitter, like there, the idea of deconstructing church isn't, 00:07:27.780 --> 00:07:31.200 I would say, I don't look, maybe I'm reading into you, but I don't think you think that's a, 00:07:31.260 --> 00:07:36.240 that's a bad thing. Talk to me a little bit here. I would love your take. Deconstructing church, 00:07:36.980 --> 00:07:42.480 deconstructing Christ, deconstructing God, like what, what are the, what are the perils? What's 00:07:42.480 --> 00:07:48.440 too far? What are the opportunities that we have? As you're doing bivocational ministry and beyond, 00:07:48.600 --> 00:07:54.140 like what is this idea of deconstructing Christ via church via deconstructing Christ? 00:07:54.620 --> 00:07:57.900 Well, that's a, there's a lot there. I mean, you know that already, Jeff, but I think, 00:07:58.040 --> 00:08:03.720 I do think that it's, it's important to recognize, you know, we hear the language of deconstruction or 00:08:03.720 --> 00:08:07.400 deconstructing thrown around all the time and people always see it as a bad thing. And I don't 00:08:07.400 --> 00:08:12.060 necessarily see it as a bad thing, especially if it's deconstructing the practices or the form and 00:08:12.060 --> 00:08:16.920 function of church rather than deconstructing faith. Cause there's a lot of issues as it relates to 00:08:16.920 --> 00:08:22.700 deconstruct a person's faith that if they're not reconstructing, uh, that, that can be a very 00:08:22.700 --> 00:08:28.840 problematic thing. But, but I'll admit even where I am in the way I understand co-vocational church 00:08:28.840 --> 00:08:35.540 planting, it all started, you know, a decade ago, probably more like 15 years ago with me in a sense, 00:08:35.680 --> 00:08:41.300 deconstructing my understanding of the practices of church. It was, so I would say it was almost 00:08:41.300 --> 00:08:48.200 like a missiological deconstruction that I started to recognize that way we were so Sunday centric and 00:08:48.200 --> 00:08:55.060 we were, the way we were so focused on Sunday morning worship services, uh, that I, I needed to 00:08:55.060 --> 00:08:59.480 kind of deconstruct that and under, so that's influenced the way I think about church planting. 00:08:59.740 --> 00:09:03.060 You know, there's a little phrase I use all the time. I'll say, we need to help church planters 00:09:03.060 --> 00:09:07.120 think less like a pastor starting the Sunday morning worship service and more like a missionary engaging 00:09:07.120 --> 00:09:12.040 a context. So we have to start with missionary behaviors and activities and get to the Sunday 00:09:12.040 --> 00:09:15.960 morning worship service. So for me, there's, there was deconstructing that had to take place 00:09:15.960 --> 00:09:21.900 there. I had to see that the Sunday gathering isn't church, you know, it's, it's not a building, 00:09:21.900 --> 00:09:26.960 uh, where certain things happen. So I think it's helpful because sometimes people just freak out 00:09:26.960 --> 00:09:31.460 when they hear deconstruction and they think that absolutely you're deconstructing your faith. And 00:09:31.460 --> 00:09:36.620 that's not the case. I think in maybe not the vast majority of conversations, but I'd say at least 00:09:36.620 --> 00:09:41.860 half the conversations I have with people that are going through some sort of deconstruction, 00:09:42.380 --> 00:09:46.580 they're deconstructing the form and function of the church. They're not deconstructing their faith. 00:09:46.580 --> 00:09:51.100 And in some cases they're actually walking closer. This is going to sound crazy, but they're actually 00:09:51.100 --> 00:09:57.900 walking closer to Jesus as they're deconstructing some of the activities of church. So it's actually 00:09:57.900 --> 00:10:04.760 a personal journey for them. And it's, it's a serious thing. It's not just some crazy, uh, craze, 00:10:04.760 --> 00:10:10.380 but they're, they're actually on an honest journey of growth as they're recognizing, you know, what, 00:10:10.780 --> 00:10:15.400 what's at the core of their, of their faith and, and how much of that is, is church centric and how 00:10:15.400 --> 00:10:19.960 much is of actually Jesus centric. So I think if that's the kind of deconstruction we're talking 00:10:19.960 --> 00:10:21.860 about, I think it's actually a very healthy thing. 00:10:21.860 --> 00:10:29.600 Yeah. So if, if we're deconstructing the, the activities, you know, re-imagining what that, 00:10:29.680 --> 00:10:35.400 that is, you know, when I, when I talk about digital church, we talk about how we're re-imagining 00:10:35.400 --> 00:10:42.040 what the Bible calls the church to be. We're remapping Acts 2, 36 to 47, Acts 8, Acts 16. 00:10:42.040 --> 00:10:49.560 We're remapping that on digital, digital functions. Like how do these platforms operate? What are, 00:10:49.900 --> 00:10:56.220 how can we do this? What does this, this look like? But if we're holding true to the biblical context, 00:10:56.220 --> 00:11:02.080 then, you know, what I'm hearing from you is re-imagining, re-interpreting some, some re-interpreting 00:11:02.080 --> 00:11:07.480 may be the bad word, re-imagining what it could be, but grounded with that biblical ecclesiology, 00:11:07.820 --> 00:11:11.780 like that's, that's the right step for us to, to, to re-imagine this stuff. 00:11:11.780 --> 00:11:16.460 Yeah. And you know, something, it's funny, you mentioned Twitter. It just reminded me the last 00:11:16.460 --> 00:11:20.120 couple of days, a couple of things I've just been sharing on Twitter in light of some things that 00:11:20.120 --> 00:11:26.240 I've been reading and rereading is I think one of the issues we have in North American culture, 00:11:26.600 --> 00:11:33.980 church context or church culture. One of the greatest problems is, is reductionism. And, you know, 00:11:33.980 --> 00:11:39.040 and I, I tweeted and said, we, we like to make great things small. So I think there's lots of 00:11:39.040 --> 00:11:45.220 different areas of church that we've reduced it down to like the bare minimum. And I think it's 00:11:45.220 --> 00:11:50.400 really, this is something I tweeted just this morning. I think we have to be reminded that both 00:11:50.400 --> 00:12:00.440 the historic and global church is, and was amazingly diverse and vast and beautiful. So when we do that, 00:12:00.440 --> 00:12:05.340 when we start to recognize just the diversity of church around the world and throughout history, 00:12:06.060 --> 00:12:11.280 we ought to just kind of lighten up a little bit on the way we personally define church. 00:12:11.680 --> 00:12:17.760 And I think just as you've been talking about with the digital space, it, it ought to create that 00:12:17.760 --> 00:12:22.280 space. I mean, it ought to create, at least in our minds or crack open our imagination to say, 00:12:22.380 --> 00:12:27.260 well, wait a minute, maybe church is more than the hour we spend on Sunday morning in this building. 00:12:27.620 --> 00:12:33.880 And of course we know that it's way more than that, but I just think one practical step is just to be 00:12:33.880 --> 00:12:36.940 reminded of just the diversity around the world and throughout history. 00:12:37.580 --> 00:12:42.740 Well, as we're looking at re-imagining, as we're looking at deconstructing the church, 00:12:42.980 --> 00:12:47.040 you know, your, your interpretation. And one of the things that you, you've worked with is, 00:12:47.100 --> 00:12:53.600 is this idea of, of bivocational and, and co-vocational ministry. Now it's interesting. 00:12:53.720 --> 00:12:58.920 I've had conversations with people and there's been some, some confusion. And even I've heard so many 00:12:58.920 --> 00:13:05.700 different ideas about what bivocational is and what co-vocational is and, and the differences between 00:13:05.700 --> 00:13:12.260 those. So, you know, I would love your take on that. Like what's the difference between bivocational and 00:13:12.260 --> 00:13:13.520 co-vocational ministry? 00:13:13.960 --> 00:13:18.860 Yeah. So let me back up just a little bit to lay, give a little bit of a kind of foundation 00:13:18.860 --> 00:13:23.800 for the way that I like to define those two words and a little bit of a nuance for me is that when 00:13:23.800 --> 00:13:27.280 I first moved into the role of North American Mission Board several years ago, this director of 00:13:27.280 --> 00:13:32.160 bivocational church planning, I knew one of the things I wanted to do, at least within our context 00:13:32.160 --> 00:13:38.040 or within our network is I wanted to help try to change what I would call the biased narrative that 00:13:38.040 --> 00:13:43.820 we have around bivocationalism. And what I mean by biased narratives is if you'll ask people what 00:13:43.820 --> 00:13:48.640 comes to mind when you hear the word bivocational, or if you ask them, what do you think comes to mind 00:13:48.640 --> 00:13:53.680 of people in the church? When you may hear the word bivocational, it's almost always negative. 00:13:54.100 --> 00:13:58.640 It's like part-time, you know, they can't give their full attention. They split their time between this 00:13:58.640 --> 00:14:03.380 and that. I mean, it's just always, it's just always negative. And I don't think that's good. 00:14:03.420 --> 00:14:08.180 I don't think it's helpful. I don't think it's biblical. So I felt like one of the things, 00:14:08.340 --> 00:14:12.700 one of the ways we could begin to change that narrative is that we needed to first off talk 00:14:12.700 --> 00:14:17.660 about the amazing benefits of being bivocational, the missiological benefits. I think there are some 00:14:17.660 --> 00:14:23.580 amazing financial benefits of being bivocational. But the third thing is I felt like we needed to expand 00:14:23.580 --> 00:14:30.100 the language. So not necessarily change the language, but we needed to bring in some additional language 00:14:30.100 --> 00:14:35.440 to kind of crack open our imagination. So we started playing around with different words. And we, 00:14:35.620 --> 00:14:41.760 a few years ago, we landed on this word co-vocational. So here's, here's the reason why I think this is 00:14:41.760 --> 00:14:47.740 helpful and necessary is first off, go back to the word bivo or bivocational. I'll often say, 00:14:47.780 --> 00:14:54.640 have you ever heard the word bifurcate? So to bifurcate means to take one thing and divide it 00:14:54.640 --> 00:15:00.340 into two parts. And I think that's what we do, unfortunately, when we hear the word bivocational 00:15:00.340 --> 00:15:09.340 is we compartmentalize or we bifurcate mission over here with work or ministry and work. So often I'll 00:15:09.340 --> 00:15:14.680 hear church leaders that are bivocational say, well, I do my job over here so I can do mission and 00:15:14.680 --> 00:15:19.120 ministry over here. And I don't think that's helpful. That's the, that's dualism. That's, 00:15:19.220 --> 00:15:23.120 that's, you know, there's a sacred secular divide there that says some work is more important than 00:15:23.120 --> 00:15:29.120 other works or some work is more sacred than other work. So to overcome that, like I said, 00:15:29.140 --> 00:15:33.020 we started playing around with this word co-vocational and think of that word for a minute. 00:15:33.020 --> 00:15:40.100 Think of co-vocational. So co-co comes from the Latin prefix com, c-o-m, which means to have in 00:15:40.100 --> 00:15:46.700 common. So think of words like co-laborer, co-pilot, co-author that we're, we're trying to align 00:15:46.700 --> 00:15:53.100 two things together. So, um, I still use both bivocational and co-fogational, but to get to 00:15:53.100 --> 00:15:58.640 your question, here's a little nuance for me is a bivocational pastor, or really most of the time 00:15:58.640 --> 00:16:03.600 I'm talking to church planters. So also a bivocational church planter is someone who has 00:16:03.600 --> 00:16:09.940 a part-time job in the marketplace that they see as temporary. So their hope is that the church will 00:16:09.940 --> 00:16:14.540 grow to the point to where they can leave their part-time job and focus full-time on the church 00:16:14.540 --> 00:16:21.140 plan. Well, a co-vocational church planter, and this is where it, we're really expanding the language 00:16:21.140 --> 00:16:26.220 here is a co-vocational church planter is someone that has a primary call in the marketplace that they 00:16:26.220 --> 00:16:31.740 never intend to leave. So in other words, they know that God has called them to be an architect or an 00:16:31.740 --> 00:16:36.400 engineer or a school teacher or a mechanic. And at the same time, they feel like God's called them to 00:16:36.400 --> 00:16:41.100 start something. So they have this full-time calling in the marketplace, but they feel like 00:16:41.100 --> 00:16:46.260 God's calling them to start something. And, and in the past, they felt like they had to choose. It's 00:16:46.260 --> 00:16:50.540 like, well, I've got to choose either this calling in the marketplace or being a pastor or a church 00:16:50.540 --> 00:16:55.240 planter. And I want to say to them, no, you don't have to choose. Let's figure out though, how can you 00:16:55.240 --> 00:17:00.740 start something while you have a full-time gig in the marketplace? And man, there are so many 00:17:00.740 --> 00:17:07.180 beautiful implications to this. I think generation, generation, generation, general, with today's 00:17:07.180 --> 00:17:14.480 generation, generationally that, you know, it's just normal to have more than one like side hustle 00:17:14.480 --> 00:17:21.740 or, you know, um, so it's, it's not unusual or out of, out of place for someone to think that, 00:17:21.800 --> 00:17:26.860 oh yeah, I have, I have two jobs or I have three jobs. Um, so then here's the last thing I'll say. 00:17:26.860 --> 00:17:32.260 And then however, wherever you want to go with this, Jeff is I hope that as we talk about the 00:17:32.260 --> 00:17:37.380 benefits of being bivocational, that we'll actually have more and more bivocational church planters in 00:17:37.380 --> 00:17:41.700 a sense become co-vocational. And what I mean by that is even when the church grows large enough 00:17:41.700 --> 00:17:45.520 that they could leave their part-time job and focus full-time on the, on the church, 00:17:45.520 --> 00:17:50.620 they stay because they just realize there's just too many missiological benefits and there's too 00:17:50.620 --> 00:17:56.140 many financial benefits for them to stay in the marketplace. And again, I just think this is so 00:17:56.140 --> 00:18:01.140 important today more than ever before because we are living in an increasing missionary context and 00:18:01.140 --> 00:18:04.660 more and more people are less and less interested in the programs and activities of the church. 00:18:04.860 --> 00:18:08.540 So we have to go where people are. And I think one of the best places to go 00:18:08.540 --> 00:18:12.520 is in the marketplace. So I don't, I hope that's helpful. Just a little nuance between 00:18:12.520 --> 00:18:16.400 bivo and covo. Like I said, I still think, you know, one's not better than the other, 00:18:16.560 --> 00:18:21.840 but I just think we have tens of thousands of people sitting in our churches throughout North America 00:18:21.840 --> 00:18:27.760 that didn't know it was an option. They, they felt like if God called them in the marketplace, 00:18:27.760 --> 00:18:31.080 they couldn't start something. And I want to say, no, you can, you can do both, 00:18:31.080 --> 00:18:36.840 but we have to think about it differently. You know, I, I spent years, uh, in the early 2000s, 00:18:36.880 --> 00:18:44.940 early mid 2000s, angry at God because I was not employed at a church. Like for me, uh, and, 00:18:44.940 --> 00:18:51.140 and coming out of college, my, my twenties, um, I, you know, I felt like God was leading me to do 00:18:51.140 --> 00:18:58.400 ministry. And, and in my mind, I had reconciled that to mean that I was working on a church staff. 00:18:58.980 --> 00:19:03.860 And it's, it's, it's interesting to me, you know, I've, I've had Ray, Ray, uh, Ray Rayley, 00:19:03.920 --> 00:19:09.940 wrong name, uh, Ray D'Armas. He used to be the, um, co-host of this podcast with me here. 00:19:10.120 --> 00:19:15.040 He, he was a digital pastor, stepped out of ministry, actually went back to school to work 00:19:15.040 --> 00:19:19.760 on, on a medical technician's degree, a medical assistant. I don't know his actual, uh, title, 00:19:19.920 --> 00:19:26.380 but like, he's, he's engaging completely in, in the secular workplace. And he tells me things he's, 00:19:26.380 --> 00:19:33.220 he's like, Jeff, um, I talked to 10 times more lost people daily than, than I would really connect 00:19:33.220 --> 00:19:36.940 with while working at, at, at a church monthly. Right. 00:19:36.940 --> 00:19:43.360 Like the, the exposure, uh, to actual ministry. I had an assistant who used to work for me when it was, 00:19:43.500 --> 00:19:47.700 when I was working for, at a, at a church in Austin. And, uh, and, and she told me she, 00:19:47.780 --> 00:19:51.120 she quit her job after about four months. She's like, this is not what I thought working 00:19:51.120 --> 00:19:54.960 for a church would actually be. I was like, what'd you think? And she was describing, 00:19:54.960 --> 00:19:59.180 you know, all the, the ministry and living missionally and engaging and having conversations 00:19:59.180 --> 00:20:04.800 and witnessing. And, and, and I was like, unfortunately, as the assistant to the creative 00:20:04.800 --> 00:20:09.840 department, that's not the life that you're going to live in nine to five. But if you, if that's what 00:20:09.840 --> 00:20:14.560 you really want, you need to go do that and not work here anymore. And she quit her job to go 00:20:14.560 --> 00:20:21.120 do that. And so it's, it's interesting to me how now, you know, there is a reemergence of this 00:20:21.120 --> 00:20:27.800 bivocational of this co-vocational doing ministry with the job, engaging, you know, even to your 00:20:27.800 --> 00:20:34.520 point, I don't, I, I, my church can afford to pay me, but there's a ministry opportunity working in 00:20:34.520 --> 00:20:40.860 this job outside the church. I should go there and instead of taking it easy, taking that, that church 00:20:40.860 --> 00:20:47.780 check. Um, like, do you see this active in, you know, and I know you work mostly with planters, 00:20:47.780 --> 00:20:52.880 do people outside the established church, the, the planting church, like physical churches, 00:20:53.000 --> 00:20:59.580 established churches, um, generational churches, like, do they think this way or is, is, is there 00:20:59.580 --> 00:21:02.700 a struggle for them to maybe recognize some of this opportunity? 00:21:03.080 --> 00:21:08.040 Yeah. So again, that's an enormous question with lots of different facets to it. First off, 00:21:08.040 --> 00:21:13.100 I would say we need to recognize or just be reminded of that, uh, this isn't anything new, 00:21:13.100 --> 00:21:21.200 uh, for, for most of the church around the world and in almost every diverse culture or, or ethnic 00:21:21.200 --> 00:21:27.320 diverse culture that it's always been bivocational or co-vocation. I mean, you know, uh, with an 00:21:27.320 --> 00:21:32.820 African-American community, Hispanic community, so many different communities, uh, it's, you know, 00:21:32.820 --> 00:21:38.080 they've always started churches and pastor churches as bivocational, co-vocational, or jokingly, 00:21:38.080 --> 00:21:44.620 sometimes they'll say tri-vocational leaders. Primarily this resurgence of this co-vocational 00:21:44.620 --> 00:21:52.640 language, the, the reality is it's primarily within suburban American, I would say church growth 00:21:52.640 --> 00:21:59.120 movement influenced churches where we felt like the pastor had to be fully funded, had to be, 00:21:59.120 --> 00:22:03.180 uh, you know, professionalized that we really professionalized ministry. So there's that whole 00:22:03.180 --> 00:22:08.120 thing is we have to recognize that around the world it's, it's almost always been bivocational 00:22:08.120 --> 00:22:13.980 and, and we need to learn from them. But then to go back to your original question about, uh, 00:22:13.980 --> 00:22:19.860 kind of the existing church, what I've seen in the midst of COVID is there's a huge number of leaders 00:22:19.860 --> 00:22:26.220 that were forced to be bivocational and they kind of went into a, you know, hollering, screaming and 00:22:26.220 --> 00:22:29.900 hollering that they didn't want to do it. It was out of necessity, not out of choice, 00:22:29.900 --> 00:22:35.940 but some of them have recognized once they went in to being bivocational, they started to recognize 00:22:35.940 --> 00:22:40.740 the benefits. I mean, I have the privilege to interview dozens and dozens and dozens of co-vocational, 00:22:40.960 --> 00:22:46.240 bivocational, co-vocational leaders. And I have these kind of the same eight questions I like to ask. 00:22:46.600 --> 00:22:51.600 And the very first question I always ask is share with me two benefits that you've discovered of 00:22:51.600 --> 00:22:56.940 being bivocational or co-vocational. And this is no exaggeration. Every single time, bar none, 00:22:56.940 --> 00:23:02.700 every single time, the very first benefit was always, uh, this missiological benefit of, uh, 00:23:02.820 --> 00:23:06.920 be, you know, having access to a mission field they wouldn't have otherwise. Now people use different 00:23:06.920 --> 00:23:10.200 language, but it's just what you said, Jeff. They just said, man, I've got so many relational 00:23:10.200 --> 00:23:14.360 connections that I never would have had before. These people would never come to our, the programs 00:23:14.360 --> 00:23:18.600 and activities of the church, but I'm getting to know them because of my job in the marketplace. 00:23:19.400 --> 00:23:25.340 So, you know, and I hope as we begin to like change this bias narrative, as more and more leaders have 00:23:25.340 --> 00:23:30.480 to become bivocational, they won't see it as a demotion. They won't see it as a downgrade, but 00:23:30.480 --> 00:23:35.840 they'll, they'll see the benefits of it. But then the other thing that I would say is I encourage 00:23:35.840 --> 00:23:40.880 leaders in existing churches all the time to go out and get a part-time job. And I'll say, look, 00:23:40.880 --> 00:23:46.060 I don't care if you, if you don't need the, if you need the money or not, just one, at least one day 00:23:46.060 --> 00:23:54.600 a week, find some part-time thing you can do in the marketplace because it'll open up your eyes to, 00:23:54.740 --> 00:23:59.980 to the things that people really go through Monday through Friday. It'll give you great street cred 00:23:59.980 --> 00:24:04.820 or respectability inside the church because people in the church will know you'll, you'll begin to 00:24:04.820 --> 00:24:08.780 understand what they're going through, but it'll also give you great respectability or street cred 00:24:08.780 --> 00:24:14.400 outside the church. So when you start to meet people that have no church connection, instead of 00:24:14.400 --> 00:24:19.700 leading with, oh, I'm a pastor, I'm a church planter, you initially, at least you can lead 00:24:19.700 --> 00:24:25.220 with what you do in the marketplace. So I think that's another missiological benefit. So, so yeah, 00:24:25.220 --> 00:24:32.060 I do think, um, as this whole conversation, especially as I said earlier, kind of this American 00:24:32.060 --> 00:24:38.200 church growth mentality influence type of church, as this conversation about Bible Covo is 00:24:38.200 --> 00:24:46.280 becoming more commonplace. Uh, I do see leaders in existing churches begin to recognize the benefits, 00:24:46.280 --> 00:24:51.420 the missiological benefits, the financial benefits and, and other benefits. I mean, they don't have to be 00:24:51.420 --> 00:24:58.340 dependent on the giving from the church. So I've even heard some leaders say it's actually giving them 00:24:58.340 --> 00:25:02.880 freedom in their, their voice, especially if it's a prophetic voice to say, they don't have to worry 00:25:02.880 --> 00:25:09.260 about like, if they make somebody mad, that's the big giver, or there's just lots of little benefits 00:25:09.260 --> 00:25:16.460 there. I think that, um, uh, it's just, again, it's just a great, great way. I think that think 00:25:16.460 --> 00:25:21.480 about leading the church in a missionary context. Are you seeing, uh, like a person, especially on the, 00:25:21.480 --> 00:25:27.180 on the planting side, have you seen an increase of this? You know, the economy's been rough. Uh, 00:25:27.180 --> 00:25:32.800 people are walking out of, out of the church ministry in digital space. I've seen a lot of 00:25:32.800 --> 00:25:39.740 people, um, leave established churches to start to plant their own digital churches and, and take a 00:25:39.740 --> 00:25:46.640 bi-vocational approach because digitally the, the monies, the digital churches typically don't have the, 00:25:46.640 --> 00:25:54.580 the funding vehicles that some of the established are. And so like, I, I see 75, 85% of the churches 00:25:54.580 --> 00:26:01.760 we're planting in digital space are, are bi-vocational or not even really funded well from like parent 00:26:01.760 --> 00:26:07.740 organizations and denominations. Have you seen a trend in recent months towards more bi-vocational 00:26:07.740 --> 00:26:13.000 planting? Well, um, yeah, I don't have stats for this in the last couple of years, but at least 00:26:13.260 --> 00:26:18.740 anecdotally, absolutely. I mean, I, I have more and more conversations than ever before with, uh, church 00:26:18.740 --> 00:26:25.300 leaders and church planters, uh, that they are, they're, they're almost all bi-vocavo. Uh, and some 00:26:25.300 --> 00:26:30.080 cases, like you said, digital space, sometimes it's just that they're doing more of a neighborhood, uh, 00:26:30.080 --> 00:26:34.560 kind of smaller expression of church, microchurch, missional community, whatever language. But the 00:26:34.560 --> 00:26:39.560 other thing that I'll say, and I think this, this is helpful is I'll say, when you think of bi-vocavo, 00:26:39.560 --> 00:26:45.060 don't think model, but think strategy that, that, and I know I've said this several times already, 00:26:45.060 --> 00:26:50.500 but I think it is a missiological and financial strategy. It's not a model. And what I mean by 00:26:50.500 --> 00:26:55.580 that is a lot of times when people hear bi-vocational planting or co-vocational planting, they think of 00:26:55.580 --> 00:27:01.640 house church or, or microchurch. And yes, it can be that, but it doesn't have to be that. I know 00:27:01.640 --> 00:27:08.160 churches that are very large. I mean, hundreds of people and all the staff are bi-vocational it's 00:27:08.160 --> 00:27:13.700 because the very first church planter was bi-vocational or co-vocational. And as the church 00:27:13.700 --> 00:27:18.620 grew where he couldn't have left his part-time job and focused full-time on the church, he didn't, 00:27:18.660 --> 00:27:24.300 or they didn't instead they hire, they hired other bi-vocational leaders. So like all eight or 10 or 12 00:27:24.300 --> 00:27:30.540 staff are all bi-vocational. So, but yes, I think it's without a doubt, there's more and more part 00:27:30.540 --> 00:27:34.740 of it's COVID part of it's the economy. And part of it's just people are wanting to have more 00:27:34.740 --> 00:27:40.720 incarnational, smaller expressions, like, you know, planted in their neighborhood. Rather, there was a 00:27:40.720 --> 00:27:45.760 time where in kind of the church growth mentality, it was about, you know, starting a launch large 00:27:45.760 --> 00:27:50.280 regional type of church. And I just think there's a, there's a movement towards smaller expressions. 00:27:50.860 --> 00:27:56.000 I've, uh, you know, I've seen you and Twitter talk about, you know, I think it was, I think you've 00:27:56.000 --> 00:28:02.560 used the phrase deprofessionalize ministry. You know, I know we had Leonard Sweet on here maybe a month 00:28:02.560 --> 00:28:10.280 ago and I asked him a question on, on, on, um, bivo-covo and, and, and, and he reacted, um, I don't, 00:28:10.320 --> 00:28:14.180 I don't want to say it was aggressively, but he reacted with more energy towards that question. 00:28:14.180 --> 00:28:19.460 And any of the other questions I talked about, you know, really towards Jeff, we, we shouldn't use 00:28:19.460 --> 00:28:24.160 the language bivo-covo. When he said, I was like, wait, you're, you're against bivo-covo. He's like, 00:28:24.200 --> 00:28:30.700 no, no, no, we're all bivo. We, we, everyone is, is, is bivo. There shouldn't even be, he used, 00:28:30.740 --> 00:28:37.040 it was so interesting. He said, um, it's going to become increasingly difficult for pastors to make 00:28:37.040 --> 00:28:44.040 money off of the church. Um, and that opened up, you know, just a series of questions. We weren't able, 00:28:44.180 --> 00:28:49.760 to get into, but what a profound thought kind of moving forward, which, which really speaks to this 00:28:49.760 --> 00:28:55.120 idea of, of deprofessionalized. Maybe you want to speak to that a little bit. Some of the, some of 00:28:55.120 --> 00:28:59.940 the challenges we will be facing, some of the opportunities, uh, to move away from that mindset 00:28:59.940 --> 00:29:03.700 towards a, towards a bivocational approach. Well, we mentioned earlier, I use the phrase 00:29:03.700 --> 00:29:07.760 sacred-secular divide that I think we need to diminish or blow up the sacred-secular divide as 00:29:07.760 --> 00:29:11.980 relates to vocation. But the second thing that we need to blow up is the clergy-lady divide. 00:29:12.500 --> 00:29:18.200 So yes, I think that the, the chasm that we created throughout church history, especially, 00:29:18.360 --> 00:29:23.800 especially, you know, Constantine and Constantinian model of church, that we created this huge chasm 00:29:23.800 --> 00:29:28.980 between the clergy and the laos. And it's funny, laos, the Greek word actually means people of God. 00:29:29.380 --> 00:29:34.200 So I think we do, we need to diminish that. So sometimes when I say deprofessionalize, 00:29:34.200 --> 00:29:39.640 that's all I mean, is that we need to, we need to diminish that, that divide between clergy and 00:29:39.640 --> 00:29:44.540 laity. And it's funny, that reminds me of, of kind of a famous, let's see if I can remember it right, 00:29:44.760 --> 00:29:51.720 um, Leslie Newbigin, he was, he was, um, accused of, of trying to eliminate the clergy. 00:29:52.500 --> 00:29:56.800 And, and there's this great quote, he says, oh no, I'm not trying to eliminate the clergy, 00:29:56.800 --> 00:30:03.080 I'm trying to eliminate the laity. So I just think, I think that's beautiful. Yeah. Like it's like, 00:30:03.080 --> 00:30:07.940 and I think maybe that's what Lynn Sweet was trying to get at is that, no, when we talk about 00:30:07.940 --> 00:30:12.740 diminishing the chasm between clergy and laity, let's raise up the laity. I mean, like when, 00:30:12.880 --> 00:30:18.380 if we really believe in the priesthood of all believers, then we want to equip and activate 00:30:18.380 --> 00:30:24.780 and empower all the people of God. And that's a phrase I say all the time too. I'll say like, 00:30:24.820 --> 00:30:30.280 if I'm writing it, I'll say all, and I'll put, you know, the word all A L L in all caps and say, 00:30:30.280 --> 00:30:36.080 we need to activate all the people of God, not just the paid professionals, but everybody. Um, 00:30:36.140 --> 00:30:40.020 and I think it's great. I think this comes from underground church. I think you've, 00:30:40.080 --> 00:30:44.300 you've interviewed Brian Sanders before, but I, in his book, underground church, I remember he's got a, 00:30:44.300 --> 00:30:48.680 a sentence there that I love. He says, no strategy will ever reach every kind of people, 00:30:48.680 --> 00:30:53.840 except the strategy that mobilizes every kind of people. So it's, again, it speaks to the priesthood 00:30:53.840 --> 00:30:58.820 of all believers that we, we have to activate all the people of God, if we're really going to engage, 00:30:58.820 --> 00:31:04.180 uh, in God's mission. Okay. So, so help me with this. Let me pull the thread. Um, 00:31:04.520 --> 00:31:10.700 you know, the church that, that I, the church that I most recently worked for, um, when I, 00:31:10.700 --> 00:31:19.080 when I resigned in 2018, the senior pastor literally had three different doctorates and would, um, 00:31:19.080 --> 00:31:28.860 would spend, uh, I don't know, 30, 35 hours a week crafting his one hour sermon. Um, and so very well 00:31:28.860 --> 00:31:36.260 educated, very well resourced of, of time. And now we're describing not exposure towards that 00:31:36.260 --> 00:31:42.320 mentality, but more of, of a bivocational where I've got another job nine to five. So I'm not crafting 00:31:42.320 --> 00:31:47.800 this eloquent message. I don't have massive seminary degrees, or maybe, maybe I do like, 00:31:48.120 --> 00:31:55.760 how do we even educate, uh, a, a bivocational, a co-vocational movement is, do we hold them to the 00:31:55.760 --> 00:31:59.600 same standards? What does this look like? Yeah, that's a great question too. Well, 00:31:59.600 --> 00:32:03.740 there's a couple of things. First off, I think we need to have this conversation very early on 00:32:03.740 --> 00:32:08.160 within the church. So absolutely we need to be having this conversation in collegiate ministries, 00:32:08.160 --> 00:32:12.380 but I would say we need to even be having this in the conversation like youth ministries of the church 00:32:12.380 --> 00:32:16.960 is helping, helping young people understand that if they feel like God's called them to be an 00:32:16.960 --> 00:32:21.920 engineer, they should go be the best engineer they possibly can for the glory of God. And at the same 00:32:21.920 --> 00:32:26.840 time, help them think about starting something. So we need to help them know early on, they hope, 00:32:26.940 --> 00:32:32.860 they don't have to decide between mission and work or vocation that there, there ought to be an 00:32:32.860 --> 00:32:39.580 alignment there. So I think that's a huge thing. Secondly is ultimately this whole co-vocational 00:32:39.580 --> 00:32:43.940 discussion or conversation is going to change the way we think about theological education. 00:32:44.600 --> 00:32:49.720 So I think first off it, well, there's two parts of that. I think the content of our theological 00:32:49.720 --> 00:32:55.220 education and the delivery of the theological education is going to change. What I mean by the, 00:32:55.380 --> 00:33:00.880 especially the delivery is I think ultimately, and I know this is a big thing, you know, this, 00:33:01.080 --> 00:33:05.880 this isn't going to happen overnight, but I think everyone would agree that the best place for 00:33:05.880 --> 00:33:12.340 theological education to take place is in the local church. And I think that's, I think that's a 00:33:12.340 --> 00:33:16.360 movement that's going to take a long time, but we need to move towards that where theological education 00:33:16.360 --> 00:33:21.200 is taking place in the church. So we can be raising up more and more leaders to start things. 00:33:21.560 --> 00:33:26.920 I mean, it's just crazy. And I have two seminary degrees, so I'm not, I'm not anti-theological 00:33:26.920 --> 00:33:33.240 education. That's for sure. But it's just doesn't make any sense to root somebody up from the place 00:33:33.240 --> 00:33:39.380 where they live and go somewhere else for, for three or four or five years to earn a degree 00:33:39.380 --> 00:33:44.960 that today, there's no way they're going to go get a job in a church to pay for the debt. 00:33:45.720 --> 00:33:51.840 I mean, none, it just doesn't make sense. All of that. So I think, um, the, the delivery of our 00:33:51.840 --> 00:33:55.800 theological education is going to change. And I am grateful right now that all the seminaries 00:33:55.800 --> 00:34:00.260 across the country have, you know, 100% online degrees. So I think that's really helpful. 00:34:01.000 --> 00:34:06.900 Um, but I think even the content is that, you know, I think it's unfortunate that there's very 00:34:06.900 --> 00:34:13.380 few seminaries that teach a theology of work. Uh, there's very few seminaries or colleges or 00:34:13.380 --> 00:34:18.340 universities that help, uh, someone that, that wants to be engaged in mission and ministry, 00:34:18.340 --> 00:34:25.040 think about a trade or, you know, some other skill that, that, that they could access. Um, 00:34:25.040 --> 00:34:29.560 because I think right now we're kind of in an in-between time where there are lots of leaders 00:34:29.560 --> 00:34:34.760 in a church, you know, they'll say, Hey, I'm, I'm, I'm open to being bivocational, but I have no 00:34:34.760 --> 00:34:40.280 other skill. Like there's nowhere for me to go. And that's got to change. So I think we're kind of 00:34:40.280 --> 00:34:44.920 in this in-between time that if we have this conversation earlier on, as I mentioned, then we're going 00:34:44.920 --> 00:34:49.720 to have more and more leaders that, that have a calling in the marketplace and they can start 00:34:49.720 --> 00:34:57.000 something. So, um, man, there's just a huge, I mean, theological education there is a, is an enormous 00:34:57.000 --> 00:35:01.380 conversation around all of this. And then I think the other thing too, Jeff, go back to your comment 00:35:01.380 --> 00:35:07.540 about, you know, someone spending 30 or 40 hours a week, you know, on an hour message. I think 00:35:07.540 --> 00:35:12.360 anyone that's involved in church planning understands you need to plant with a team, 00:35:12.360 --> 00:35:16.940 but if you're bivocational or co-vocational, there is absolutely no other option. I mean, 00:35:16.940 --> 00:35:23.540 you have to do this with a team and I'm a big proponent of APAS, Ephesians four, and I know 00:35:23.540 --> 00:35:28.360 you're familiar with APAS, apostle, prophet, evangelist, shepherd, teacher. I think that's a really helpful 00:35:28.360 --> 00:35:35.480 way to think about a church planting team is to, to create a team around giftings, not just ministry 00:35:35.480 --> 00:35:42.460 categories, but around giftings. And if we do that, uh, then we, we can plant churches bivocational or 00:35:42.460 --> 00:35:47.180 co-vocationally much easier because then we don't have to do it all. We just focus on the lane where 00:35:47.180 --> 00:35:51.440 we're gifted. If that makes sense. Totally and completely. It's, it's funny. Just, uh, just 00:35:51.440 --> 00:35:57.900 yesterday I was talking to a digital church planter in Nigeria. Uh, he's, he's starting out and, um, you 00:35:57.900 --> 00:36:04.260 know, challenged him to, to build that team around him and start, it was funny. He, he's like, he literally 00:36:04.260 --> 00:36:10.880 he's, he's like, Jeff, I'm, I'm confused. Am I supposed to start by, you know, evangelizing and 00:36:10.880 --> 00:36:17.340 recruiting my team off of people that are coming to Christ? Or am I supposed to, you know, go to my 00:36:17.340 --> 00:36:23.040 friends and recruit from my friends and then challenge them to step into ministry? Um, and, you know, 00:36:23.100 --> 00:36:27.080 basically I said to him, I was like, well, if you can't, if you can't convince your friends to follow 00:36:27.080 --> 00:36:31.100 you in the ministry, then I don't think you're going to be able to convince strangers to follow 00:36:31.100 --> 00:36:36.740 you in the ministry. And he's like, oh, that's good. But a pest is, is such a great, um, model 00:36:36.740 --> 00:36:42.440 towards that. And so, you know, love digging into that and even trying to figure out, you know, 00:36:42.440 --> 00:36:46.160 some of the stuff with digital church network, we're trying to figure out how to, what a pest 00:36:46.160 --> 00:36:52.140 looks like. Um, you know, even in virtual reality, what a pest looks like in digital, what a pest 00:36:52.140 --> 00:36:56.280 looks like. I had a conversation with, uh, Mark Lutz, uh, with some stuff we're doing 00:36:56.280 --> 00:36:59.900 with the podcast, but what is, uh, what does a pest look like in the gaming community? 00:37:00.240 --> 00:37:03.680 Well, you're going to do a pest in gaming. Yeah. Let's, let's figure it out. Mark's fourfold. 00:37:03.800 --> 00:37:07.840 I'm more fivefold. We'll fight about it at some point and come to a conclusion. I'm sure. 00:37:08.240 --> 00:37:14.300 So let me, let me ask, um, uh, where do I want to go? So, so, so many options. So we're 00:37:14.300 --> 00:37:19.940 talking a lot about education. Um, and, and, and I think that's good. It's, it's interesting. 00:37:20.120 --> 00:37:24.960 I've been, I think that's good. That's a weird kind of statement. I think education is a good 00:37:24.960 --> 00:37:31.040 thing. Uh, hopefully nobody like pulls that out as a soundbite. Um, here's, here's the deal. Like 00:37:31.040 --> 00:37:36.600 I'll talk about priesthood of all believers and I'll, I'll have, I'll have churches reply to me. 00:37:37.060 --> 00:37:41.400 Hey, Jeff, I don't know why you're making such a big deal about priesthood of all believers. 00:37:41.640 --> 00:37:47.320 We've been doing this for, for decades. Um, and then I'll talk to churches about priesthood of all 00:37:47.320 --> 00:37:53.060 believers and I'll get, it's gotta be done by a certain person in a certain way, in a certain 00:37:53.060 --> 00:37:57.260 process. Um, you know, and, and, and I'm not going to call attention that some of those more aggressive 00:37:57.260 --> 00:38:01.540 against priesthood happen to be Southern Baptist churches. Set that aside. We can, can nuance that 00:38:01.540 --> 00:38:10.220 later, but maybe for, for you, for me, um, what's the, what's the biblical grounding in priesthood of 00:38:10.220 --> 00:38:15.600 all believers? You know, you, you've, you've got, you know, a pass as a thing and you've got the, 00:38:15.600 --> 00:38:22.080 the tribes and we can get into it. I'm not looking for like the, the, the full thesis here, but, um, 00:38:22.320 --> 00:38:28.420 if, if I'm trying to help a church or a leader or a pastor understand the opportunities of priesthood, 00:38:28.420 --> 00:38:31.640 what's the biblical foundation that, that I should be building on? 00:38:31.920 --> 00:38:34.660 Well, yeah, that's a great question. Well, I do think, and we've already talked about it, 00:38:34.660 --> 00:38:38.760 so we don't, we don't need to go there. I do think a pass is, is a big piece there because those 00:38:38.800 --> 00:38:44.060 five gifts in Ephesians four are giftings. Unfortunately, historically, we've interpreted 00:38:44.060 --> 00:38:51.720 them as offices, um, or roles. And, and we've interpreted that text as a leadership text. 00:38:51.720 --> 00:38:55.860 Like those are gifts given to a leader so they can equip the work, uh, the saints for the work 00:38:55.860 --> 00:39:00.720 of ministry. And it's not a leadership text. It's a body text. So I think that's a really good place 00:39:00.720 --> 00:39:07.280 to start is to say those gifts are given to the body. So we, the saints of the body, the body of Jesus, 00:39:07.380 --> 00:39:11.720 so we can equip the saints for the work of ministry. So I think that's a huge piece. 00:39:11.720 --> 00:39:16.600 I think also, I mean, if someone really wanted to go down like the rabbit hole of the whole priesthood 00:39:16.600 --> 00:39:22.740 of the old Testament, um, you know, uh, first Peter chapter two, when Peter says we're a chosen 00:39:22.740 --> 00:39:28.060 generation, Royal priesthood, Holy nation, special people, you know, that's us. So there, 00:39:28.140 --> 00:39:33.940 there was a movement in the new Testament, I would argue from priest to saint. So, uh, and, 00:39:34.040 --> 00:39:39.700 and then I think also anyone who's really interested in digging into this is to go back to Luther's 00:39:39.700 --> 00:39:44.720 writing, the Protestant reformation. And, you know, I mean, for, for Luther, the Protestant 00:39:44.720 --> 00:39:50.800 reformation was really about justification by faith, of course. And, and the priesthood of all 00:39:50.800 --> 00:39:55.840 believers is that all of us had access to the father, but, and, and because now Jesus is the high 00:39:55.840 --> 00:40:02.220 priest. Right. But Luther also made a real distinction. The implic, one of the implications 00:40:02.220 --> 00:40:12.400 of, we all have access to the father is that now we are all priests or saints. Um, and there was no 00:40:12.400 --> 00:40:19.260 distinction between religious and secular, um, except for the sake of office or work was a little phrase 00:40:19.260 --> 00:40:24.360 that Luther used all the time. So he'd say that really we're in a sense, we're all priests or 00:40:24.360 --> 00:40:32.960 bishops or popes. He would, he said, so I think, um, yeah, so I think APAS, uh, understanding those 00:40:32.960 --> 00:40:38.960 are gifts, not roles and offices. I think constantly thinking about how can we diminish this clergy laity 00:40:38.960 --> 00:40:45.800 divide? I think how can we be thinking about, uh, you know, the move from priests to saints. And I think 00:40:45.800 --> 00:40:52.580 moving to, uh, just the activation of, of, of everybody. Um, and, and I don't know. And I think 00:40:52.580 --> 00:40:57.560 Jeff, I haven't really processed this, but I do think when we make church about the Sunday morning 00:40:57.560 --> 00:41:01.860 worship service, and I'm not anti-gathering, I mean, we are a gathered worshiping community, 00:41:01.860 --> 00:41:08.600 so I'm not anti-gathering, but when, but throughout the church, well, I would say throughout kind of 00:41:08.600 --> 00:41:14.080 this Constantinian understanding of church, and then you add to that church growth movement mentality 00:41:14.080 --> 00:41:22.240 from 50 years ago, uh, we made church about the Sunday morning worship service. Well, when we did, 00:41:22.460 --> 00:41:29.480 we, we, we very much professionalized the activities around that Sunday gathering, which, 00:41:29.480 --> 00:41:34.340 which was primary preaching and then worship leading, like any other programs or activities 00:41:34.340 --> 00:41:40.900 around the Sunday gathering. And we minimized everything that took place outside that Sunday 00:41:40.900 --> 00:41:47.340 gathering. So I think when we think about activating all the people of God or the saints of God to engage 00:41:47.340 --> 00:41:52.580 in mission, we're, we're talking about mission outside the walls of the church. I mean, we're talking 00:41:52.580 --> 00:41:59.180 about mission in the marketplace and in our neighborhoods and in social spaces. So I think that's where 00:41:59.180 --> 00:42:04.800 as a church in North America, again, in an increasing missionary context, we just have to do a better 00:42:04.800 --> 00:42:08.900 job. We have to activate all the people of God to engage in God's mission outside the walls of the 00:42:08.900 --> 00:42:16.120 church. And that absolutely would include digital space. Um, and you don't have to have a four-year 00:42:16.120 --> 00:42:22.400 seminary degree or eight years of seminary degree, uh, to do that. Um, that wasn't the case in the early 00:42:22.400 --> 00:42:28.800 church. Um, and it absolutely isn't the case in the predominant church around the global world. I mean, 00:42:28.800 --> 00:42:36.580 it's just churches are not led by professional clergy, um, around the world, uh, primarily. 00:42:36.580 --> 00:42:42.620 Well, let me ask because, you know, as, as we're wrapping up here, um, there's, you know, 00:42:42.620 --> 00:42:46.480 you've got a lot of people, or at least I have a lot of people that are now having to think 00:42:46.480 --> 00:42:51.680 bivocational when they've never thought that way. You know, even I, as I've, I've started digital 00:42:51.680 --> 00:42:57.460 church network, which I consider a bivocational ministry, like, no, we're not, I'm not making a 00:42:57.460 --> 00:43:03.460 living off it. And so, um, you know, having to recruit leaders and, and, and guys, we're not having a ton 00:43:03.460 --> 00:43:08.020 of money coming in and, and I'm not going to charge a bunch of money for people that are living bivocational 00:43:08.020 --> 00:43:13.380 lives. Like we need to figure out how to do this without money being the, the, the activity for it. 00:43:13.740 --> 00:43:19.040 Uh, and so at least in my own life, I have a bunch of people that are living bivocationally that 00:43:19.040 --> 00:43:24.620 aren't, that aren't used to it. What are, what are some resources? What are some knowledge books, 00:43:24.960 --> 00:43:32.220 blogs, podcasts, people, you know, like you, uh, that, that are helping kind of cast vision direction 00:43:32.220 --> 00:43:37.840 towards, uh, understanding the, the bivocational model more? Do you have any examples or people 00:43:37.840 --> 00:43:38.620 we can connect with? 00:43:39.100 --> 00:43:44.280 Yeah. So I'll give you a couple examples, uh, or a couple ideas. One, um, and it's easy for me to 00:43:44.280 --> 00:43:48.040 promote this because it's free, but I wrote a book a couple of years ago called co-vocational church 00:43:48.040 --> 00:43:52.640 planting. And, and it's actually a free digital download. Now you can buy a hard copy on Amazon, 00:43:52.640 --> 00:43:58.780 but if you just Google co-vocational church planting, uh, it'll take you to a website where you can 00:43:58.780 --> 00:44:07.600 download it in both English and, um, and Spanish for free. Um, also there is, um, um, oh, and then 00:44:07.600 --> 00:44:11.400 another, I tell you a book that just came out a couple months ago, and I just think he's done an 00:44:11.400 --> 00:44:17.520 absolutely fantastic job with it. It's called the future is bivocational and it's by, um, 00:44:18.180 --> 00:44:24.980 Andrew Hamilton. And I just think Andrew, man, he just, uh, he's just done a fantastic job, uh, with 00:44:24.980 --> 00:44:33.460 the book. So that would be another, uh, thing I would recommend. Also, um, there is a ministry by 00:44:33.460 --> 00:44:42.020 that was created just a few months ago. I'm going to find it here for you real quick. Eric Hoke, 00:44:42.100 --> 00:44:51.440 which is H O K E. He started, uh, fantastic ministry called I help pastors get jobs. So again, 00:44:51.440 --> 00:44:57.580 I think if you just Googled, I help pastors get jobs. Uh, Eric has done an incredible job of putting 00:44:57.580 --> 00:45:05.020 together just a whole slew of services and resources to help pastors move into that bivocational and 00:45:05.020 --> 00:45:14.260 co-vocational space. Uh, super helpful. Um, interesting. Yeah. And then, uh, Galanos, um, 00:45:14.520 --> 00:45:24.980 and if I could find, there's also, I mean, Chris Galanos has, uh, a website and I would follow, 00:45:24.980 --> 00:45:30.360 oh, his website is tentmakingpastors.com. Very similar to some of the stuff there, 00:45:30.440 --> 00:45:35.300 although they're doing different things that Eric is doing also provide some great resources to help 00:45:35.300 --> 00:45:40.840 pastors. Um, cause like you said, Eric, I mean, the difficult thing here, we already alluded to this 00:45:40.840 --> 00:45:46.200 a little bit, um, is I think this is going to change over time because we're, we're going to have 00:45:46.200 --> 00:45:52.300 a younger generation that they, they don't see it as odd as having a side hustle or, you know, 00:45:52.300 --> 00:46:00.020 a side gig, but, uh, we have leaders now more of the really boomers and maybe even some builders 00:46:00.020 --> 00:46:05.520 that, uh, you know, just had one job their whole life. And, you know, they went to Bible college, 00:46:05.560 --> 00:46:08.980 they went to seminary, they've been in a church this whole time. And now when they think about 00:46:08.980 --> 00:46:12.700 being bivocational, it's very difficult because they just have a hard time thinking about, I don't 00:46:12.700 --> 00:46:18.360 have any other skills. Uh, but I do think there's some helpful things there. One of the conversations 00:46:18.360 --> 00:46:22.980 I'll lead people into sometimes is I'll say, think about time, money, and relational capital. 00:46:23.080 --> 00:46:26.820 Well, here, what I mean by that is when you think about a job, especially as a church planter, 00:46:27.280 --> 00:46:34.560 but when you think about a job, think about those three different arenas. Like is this job, 00:46:34.620 --> 00:46:39.840 can you work this job in a short period of time? Like, could you, could you do this job in two days 00:46:39.840 --> 00:46:45.020 or three days? So it can free you up for more time to focus on the church. Or could you do this job 00:46:45.020 --> 00:46:49.040 and make a lot of money in a shorter period of time? Or does this job give you like great 00:46:49.040 --> 00:46:54.800 relational capital? So kind of like jokingly, I'll say, if you're working in a office and let's say 00:46:54.800 --> 00:46:59.200 you're working in a cubicle all by yourself from nine to five, that's probably not a very good job 00:46:59.200 --> 00:47:02.620 to have. If you're a church planter, be like, you're working in it, you know, nine to five, 00:47:02.800 --> 00:47:08.340 Monday through Friday, it's just you. But if you can do that job in three days to where you're off 00:47:08.340 --> 00:47:13.100 Thursday and Friday, maybe it's not bad. Or let's say if you're working in a service industry and 00:47:13.100 --> 00:47:17.980 you're not making a lot of money, but you're meeting 300 people a day, that might be a really 00:47:17.980 --> 00:47:21.540 good job to have as a, you know, as a church planter. So I just think when you think about 00:47:21.540 --> 00:47:25.380 jobs, rarely are we going to find one where you make a lot of money in a short period of time and 00:47:25.380 --> 00:47:30.860 you meet lots of people, but, you know, kind of balance those three things. But, and then also, 00:47:30.920 --> 00:47:34.980 like I said, if you look at one of those other ministries, both from Eric or from Chris, 00:47:35.380 --> 00:47:40.520 they've got just some great blog posts and resources that can help, help leaders in existing 00:47:40.520 --> 00:47:43.120 churches move more into that Vivo space. 00:47:43.560 --> 00:47:47.800 Very cool. We'll put a bunch of, we'll put all those links in the show notes and we'll find them 00:47:47.800 --> 00:47:53.340 in the background. But it's taking meticulous notes in the background during it. But hey, Brad, 00:47:53.820 --> 00:47:56.220 thanks for jumping on the podcast. Love having this conversation. 00:47:56.240 --> 00:47:56.900 Well, thank you, Jeff. 00:47:57.040 --> 00:48:04.100 Yeah, we will, we'll put even Brad, follow him on Twitter and other information on the show notes as 00:48:04.100 --> 00:48:06.960 well. So, but as we're landing the plane here, Brad, any closing thoughts? 00:48:07.460 --> 00:48:12.360 Um, no, I would just say if, if you are a bivocational leader, the existing church, 00:48:12.420 --> 00:48:18.180 church planter, don't hesitate to tell your story. Um, because people need to hear it. They need to 00:48:18.180 --> 00:48:22.580 hear how are you making this work as a bivocational leader? And then I would say, if you're not a 00:48:22.580 --> 00:48:27.720 bivocational leader, but you know, someone that is, please tell their story and tell their story to 00:48:27.720 --> 00:48:32.300 be an encouragement to them, but also tell their story in the hopes that it would crack open the 00:48:32.300 --> 00:48:37.040 imagination of other people. Cause I tell you, there are again, thousands of people sitting in our pews 00:48:37.040 --> 00:48:41.420 and they don't know that they could be a school teacher and a church planter at the same time. 00:48:41.480 --> 00:48:44.840 They just think it's gotta be one or the other. And I'm just convinced it doesn't have to be. 00:48:45.340 --> 00:48:51.600 Very cool. So, uh, listen, I'm, I'm excited about the idea of bivocational ministry and the 00:48:51.600 --> 00:48:56.980 opportunities that are there. And, uh, uh, so much of what I think the future is going to look like 00:48:56.980 --> 00:49:02.060 for the, for the church is grounded in this idea of the priesthood of all believers. And so if you're, 00:49:02.160 --> 00:49:07.040 if you're a church plant, you're definitely exploring that space. If you're a physical church, 00:49:07.540 --> 00:49:12.900 um, you need to be exploring that space. Uh, so much of future ministry, uh, is going to be much 00:49:12.900 --> 00:49:18.780 more possible when we release them, we mobilize them, even going back to the, the, uh, Tampa 00:49:18.780 --> 00:49:23.380 underground quote from Brian's Brian Sanders that you can't, it's more about, about releasing those 00:49:23.380 --> 00:49:28.520 people to, to reach the different contexts that are out there. And so that was so good, but Hey, 00:49:28.520 --> 00:49:32.940 we're going to land a plane. So, so Brad, thanks for jumping on this podcast for, for, for Brad. 00:49:33.000 --> 00:49:37.900 This is Jeff with the church digital and digital church network. Thanks for jumping on, on the pod 00:49:37.900 --> 00:49:40.280 here. We'll see you next time on the show. Y'all have a good day.