WEBVTT

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 All right. Hey, welcome to the Church Digital Podcast. Jeff here, and we're doing some bonus

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 content. This is some new content that's outside of the normal podcast of what we're doing. As you

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 know, we're in season four, Jesus Gamer's Church here with the Church Digital Podcast. But I was

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 like, hey, you know what? It's not enough to just launch a new season. Let's also do a podcast

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 takeover at the same time too. As many of you know, back in 2022, a year ago, we launched

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 a podcast network where we started through the Church Digital, started platforming some other

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 voices and helping some other shows get off the ground and get out there. And we've been

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 really excited to see those podcasts, those shows, those YouTubes continue to grow and develop.

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 And so we wanted to do the podcast takeover again in 23. Now, of course, I don't want to

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 give up my show. Like that was what we did last year. It was like, hey, I'll just I'll take

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 a month off and there's way too much stuff to do and to talk about. So I don't want to I

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 don't actually stop. We're going to keep doing the podcast on Monday. But on Thursdays, we're

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 going to launch these bonus episodes, these podcast takeover shows. So look for them. You

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 know, my gut is we're going to be doing this for a couple months. Like there's there's some new

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 shows that we're adding to the podcast. There's some shows that to the network where there's some

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 new content, some new content creators that actually have not even been in the space that haven't

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 created anything, but we're getting ready to onboard. So like for the next couple months, look for some

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 bonus content from the church digital podcast every Thursday. And we'll be rolling this stuff out. And I'm I'm super

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 excited. We've got some new people coming in some new to the church digital to the podcast network. We've got a

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 new show coming on. But the show's been around for a while. And I'm really excited to have these people, Joey

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 Santos and JMO, Jason Morris, to be the first new show that we're highlighting here through the podcast

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 takeover. Now, Jason Morris, you know, and I've publicly have said this may be the smartest man

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 in all of digital church. And Joey Santos, who is just this really big teddy bear that you want to hug.

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 Okay, maybe that's just me. But these guys are awesome. These guys have been doing digital ministry

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 for a long time. And in the case of Jason Morris, we're talking a decade plus. And so their insight

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 on digital ministry, on pastoring, and on working within the established church, man, these guys

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 have been doing it. They know the ups and the downs. They know the joys. They know the hardships.

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 They know the struggles. And so it is an incredible opportunity for churches like yours, for pastors

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 and volunteers like you to learn from someone from a practical standpoint, from someone who has been

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 there like Jason and Joey has. And so they launched the podcast, maybe about a year ago, called the

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 Online Pastor Coach Podcast. And it's been awesome. I've loved it. I was on it maybe a couple months ago.

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 And this episode that they're sharing with you right now with Mindy Caliguire is incredible.

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 Like if we get to the soul care, care for the soul, care for the individual, care for self in this,

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 how do you manage this incredibly hard job of being a pastor and being digital? Like, oh my gosh,

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 this episode is incredible. I'm so glad they selected this one. So here's what I want you to do.

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 A, I want you to listen to this podcast. And B, I want you to subscribe to the podcast. You can go to

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 thechurch.digital slash podcast. That's the podcast network page. Find Online Pastor Coach Podcast.

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 Subscribe to that podcast. So maybe you do that first. Maybe I was out of order. Number one, subscribe to this

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 podcast. Links in the show notes too. Number two, let's go ahead and get you listening here to Mindy Caliguire,

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 my good friend from Soul Care, and also my friends, Joey and J-Mo on the Online Pastor Coach Podcast.

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 All right, everybody. Here you go.

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 It's been, it's been great going through some of your material that you've been doing for the SOS stuff.

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 Oh, that's right. I totally forgot about that. This was the group that has helped with that.

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 Yeah. Yeah. And yesterday, yeah, I had my first appointment with Casey.

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 Oh, he's not a rock star. Isn't he fabulous?

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 Oh, yeah. I picked up on that about five minutes in. Like, we're just like talking and his insights were just

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 just so good. Just like one random question and 15 minutes later, I come up for air and

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 realize, what did you just do? I know. He's a ninja. He's a total ninja on the soul. Total ninja.

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 Stop that. Stop doing that. Right. Exactly.

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 So he, good for you for picking him. I mean, all of them are great. He leads the whole spiritual

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 direction practice for Soul Care. So he partners with me on the development of the whole thing,

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 but he's an amazing spiritual director. And he was the first person I reached to when I was trying to

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 figure out how to do this at scale. And, you know, you know me, the, the candle lighters and the jet

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 fuel drinkers. It's like, right. You got to have candle lighters that know how to drink a little

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 jet fuel. And so Casey's one of them. And he's dominantly lighting. Thanks for the heads up,

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 because I got a meeting with him Tuesday. So now I'm going to come, like, prepared for that.

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 You should.

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 Because my meeting is with him. No, my meeting is with him Tuesday. I really look forward to it

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 because when I look at his resume and what it is, I say, well, I think he's going to be a good

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 person to talk to. And I'll tell you this, personally speaking, being completely vulnerable,

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 I always have resistance to anything like that. Always. So this is my very, very first time

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 doing anything. You're reading my mail. Cause I'm in the same boat. In the same boat. And this is

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 what I told, this is what I told Casey. I was like, I knew I was in trouble when, you know,

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 it's going through the stuff that Mindy, you know, I signed up for it so that I could help others.

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 Right. So there's, there's a, and then we're going through this stuff.

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 My strategy is working.

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 Right. So, so then we're going through this stuff. And, um, I think I put a comment in,

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 you know, in the content you've had me, uh, you know, above all else called guard your heart,

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 you know, proud of this come the issues of life. And I was, um, that was like the first chink in the

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 armor there where it was just like, okay. Um, talking about prioritization of soul care.

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 And when I knew I was in trouble when I was trying to, you know, make an appointment with Casey,

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 you know, between his schedule and mine. And the first one that I had available was for next year.

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 Um, and I thought to myself that connecting those two things together. Wow. Jason. Um,

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 and it was like, okay, maybe there's a problem in my priorities. If I can't make time for soul care

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 until next year. Right. So that, that for me was just like, okay, clearly something needs to,

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 you know, the priority needs to be in a different place. Wow. Um, and so, so I was like, screw it.

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 I'm going to just move something else out and I'm going to do this because clearly I have a problem.

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 Right. One, two, um, the other little indicator, the little red flag for me was, you know,

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 going through your material and the platform, um, wouldn't allow me to double speed it.

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 Um, and then, um, I figured out a way to hack it and double speed it anyway. And then, um,

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 You got into Vimeo.

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 Right. Yeah. Yeah. And I can, I've got all kinds of plugins and stuff like that. Cause that's just

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 how I roll. And then I realized, you know,

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 if on the soul care course, you know, on slowing down and, you know, being present and all that kind

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 of stuff, I'm finding myself frustrated because I can't double speed it. Maybe that

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 is its own little signal to you. So interesting. Like, do I really need to double the seven minute

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 video? Right. Especially don't get me wrong. Especially your videos, because it's not just

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 talking head, although you do talking head stuff here. It's, it kind of reminded me of a lot of the

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 stuff I've seen with John Ortberg back in the days when you were doing like Monty stuff, you know,

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 it's artfully done. You're having a talk, you know, while you're walking around the trails in

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 Colorado and stuff like that. I was just like, Oh, that's so great. So good. You know,

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 I know. So appreciate it. I love hearing this. This is great because I'm going to share it with the

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 team. I, I, um, like, and like I said, I always very resistant to anything like that. Like anything,

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 anytime that, that people say, no, you just find somebody to counsel with. Just come on. I know what

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 the Bible says. I know the truth. I know, you know, again, I can apply common sense. I don't need

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 anybody to tell me how to apply common sense, but, uh, there's something that when you start talking

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 about that side of a prioritize our souls and you, you backed up with the scriptures and I realized I

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 never looked at that. Like I'm here. I am late forties. Pastor son grew up in the church. And the

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 thing I realized I never pay attention to in the importance of our soul. And, and I was like, you

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 know, this might be the time I actually need that. And I need to just give in. That's okay to ask for

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 somebody else's help, which again, if anybody that knows me and is listening to this, you're going to

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 probably fall off their chair right now, because that's not how I talk. That's just not how it's

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 tough. But again, that's the effect of your course right there. And I just started. Um, and, and, and I,

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 I honestly, like, I'm like, my wife saw this book, right? I printed the whole guy and, um, and my wife's

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 like, what are you doing? And because again, it's just like, what are you doing? Like, are you, I was

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 like, no, I'm going through this program and, and this for me is not for, it's just like, really? And

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 like, that's telling you how, like, she was surprised. And that tells you how, what kind

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 of wall you guys broke here. Yeah. You might actually give me to journal. Because most of

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 the time when I, you know, like I don't do handwritten journal. I just don't because I do, I go do voice

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 memos. Keep going. I'll show you something, Jason. I'm going to send you this. Um, I'll, I'll type

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 stuff, you know, I'll make videos like even like tiny moleskins for you. Oh, I give away

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 moleskins. Look how tiny this is. Anybody can do this. It was a mistake in our order. And then

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 we got it. We're like, Oh no, this is exactly what we need to get to. But okay, let's just,

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 let's just be real. I totally interrupted you, but I had to show you one of those. You're

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 going to send me your new address. I'll send you. Let's just be real. Because again, this

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 conversation here, that's what I told you, right? This podcast is like this. We're just

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 having a conversation. Um, and I'm thinking about it. I may say something that might, you know,

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 I don't want to be controversial or anything like that, but I think that's part of, I think

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 why you crack the code here with so care is male pastors being able to get out of their

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 own way to realize that they actually need something like this. Because we, as a man, we have the

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 tendency and I'm talking, I'm speaking of myself. I'm not talking about anybody else. I'm talking

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 about myself here. We have the tendency. I have the tendency. Okay. This, all this stuff

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 is for people that need help. I don't need help. And, and I, and I told you, I, we sign

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 up for the, he guesses, uh, right. And, and, and, in, in four days, I'm talking to four different

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 people. Like that's how fast it happens. And, and I'm like, and I'm just like, okay, I'm

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 hearing all these people's problems and I'm pretending I don't have them. Um, to me, and

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 because they're talking, they're talking about mental health. They're talking about anxiety.

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 They're talking about depression and, and, and I'm in that season that I'm realizing that

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 maybe I'm not that different than the people that asked me for help. And they're coming to

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 me for it. So if I don't do something about it and I, and I, and I, and I look at, you

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 know, in a, in a, in a person experiencing church, it's those things in that, like people

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 drop in sometimes asking for help. But one, I, one thing I learned, and I think Jason can

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 testify to that. I love to hear from him because of, you don't know who they are. You don't know

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 their faces online in the digital platform. They will open up. They will talk to you everything

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 that you don't want to know because they're, they're waiting for the outlet and now you're

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 it. If you're a digital pastor, you're, you're the outlet. And if you don't have your soul where

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 God designed it to be, it's going to be hard to handle. So I, I, I, that's why I, I want to get

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 into that with you, Mindy, and Jason to this conversation, because again, this experience that

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 we're having, Jason and I are having this experience now through soul care. And it's already like,

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 you know, it looks like they broke both of us apart. Now we're putting the pieces together to see what

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 we can, you know, Jason and I are going to be in Tampa next week. We're both about, we're going to

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 be like in group therapy next week. So we can, we can figure it out. Having these conversations,

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 but, but I, one thing I want to ask you, Mindy, is what drove you, like what inspired you? What

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 actually, what happened in you that you said, this is it. This, this is what God called me to do,

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 because there's no question. We watch the videos. We watch the videos of you talking and it's coming

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 from the heart. Um, and, and that's the thing I love about it. When I watch, it's not this, like

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 it's, it's, it's well-produced, but when you talk, it's from your heart. It's whatever God put in your

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 heart. It's not just the, some, you know, text that it's, it's, it's, it's, it's somewhere for

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 a future. So tell me a little bit about that side. I'd love to hear from you what that came from for

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 you. I'm happy to share that story. Um, and I think that's why I have such a bias towards the

00:16:09.740 --> 00:16:16.220
 whole digital church network towards the hair on fire church planters, toward people who are moving

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 into frontiers that are important for us to move into, but are hard and are new and are unsupported

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 and people don't understand it's lonely, all that stuff. Cause all the, all the, all that I have to

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 offer right now in this season of life, it comes out of the wreckage of what happened to me when I

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 trashed the wellbeing of my own soul. It is not, I mean, there's no gentle or nice or glossy way to

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 say it. I mean, I, I went headlong into vocational ministry, um, from like academics and then in the

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 marketplace, you know, my husband was getting his THM at Dallas seminary and I was getting what they call

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 the PhD for putting hubby through. And I was doing, you know, the business world. And then we interned

00:17:04.960 --> 00:17:12.520
 at Willow Creek in the early nineties, and then went out to Boston to start our own church. And we didn't

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 have a set. We didn't have a stadia or exponential or new thing network. We didn't have any of that stuff.

00:17:18.960 --> 00:17:24.800
 We were, and it wasn't like Willow abandoned us. That was never their thing. They were not a

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 church planting movement. They were just giving us a year of training and Buford was kind of funding

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 it, I think. And so we just went out there and started our own 501c3, raised all our own money,

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 did all like a really hard thing, starting a new church in a really hard place in Boston and did it

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 in the hardest possible way, which is like idiots on our own with no support. Okay.

00:17:48.260 --> 00:17:53.960
 Like on the mission field in the mid nineties, doing the exact same thing.

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 Did you do the same thing?

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 Yeah. Totally on our own. Like the whole thing and like back with PTSD. So of course what could

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 possibly go wrong. Right, right. What we were inherently saying and a lot can go wrong. Like

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 a lot can go wrong and does when you don't have that kind of support. And I remember hearing it said

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 years ago, um, after what I went through that, like the one four letter word that most leaders will

00:18:26.140 --> 00:18:35.760
 never say is help because we, we just don't, we don't, we, we just grind. We keep going. We plow

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 through, we ignore what's going on. We, we, we live for the good of others. We quote a bunch of

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 scripture to tell ourselves to keep going. And the, like, it's just, there's now I'm realizing

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 in counseling psychology. I'm not a therapist, but I've heard, and you start quoting scripture

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 to yourself to like, get yourself out of it. Like you, you, you do a spiritual bypass rather

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 than experience what you're experiencing and be with God in it. We, we sort of use God to

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 deflect the pain of life. We use scriptural truths to deflect what's really going on.

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 And I believe that as a result, that's why we don't grow. That's why we don't change. We

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 don't experience transformation because we've basically given God the Heisman move. We're

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 like, Hey, yeah, I don't need you. Cause you know, I can do all things in Christ. Even this,

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 I don't need you for this. You know what I mean? It's like, that's just kind of how I know

00:19:39.320 --> 00:19:44.060
 it's just crazy how we are, but that's what I have observed. So Joey, to get back to

00:19:44.060 --> 00:19:51.740
 your question, I, I, I had, I, I was such an idiot that I ignored every symptom that my soul was not

00:19:51.740 --> 00:19:58.060
 well. And there were symptoms like, you know, have you ever had it happen where, you know,

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 you're a leader or the leader and you're at somebody else's church you're visiting or whatever.

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 And like a hymn comes on and it's like, you just start weeping and you don't know why you can't

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 stop it. And it's not like a Holy spirit weeping. It's like, something's not right. And I can't,

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 I can't do anything about it. And so anyway, that's apparently my husband is dropping in on a live

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 recording. You want to say hi to the podcast? Oh, you drive my five. Okay, good.

00:20:28.200 --> 00:20:29.580
 Okay. No, wait.

00:20:29.940 --> 00:20:32.820
 There you go. You made an action.

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 This is what you have to have when you're out in the wilderness. And this will probably

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 my, my wifi, um, is we've got these sweet little strong things, Jason, I'm sure you know all about

00:20:51.120 --> 00:20:54.180
 them, Joe, you probably do too. You guys are digital experts. So, you know, this stuff.

00:20:54.760 --> 00:21:01.820
 So nonetheless, a massive, like ignored every symptom, every symptom. There were times I remember

00:21:01.820 --> 00:21:07.960
 like looking in the mirror in the morning and being like, you know, do you even know Mindy

00:21:07.960 --> 00:21:16.380
 Caliguire anymore? Do you know her? Like, do you know what she laughs at? Do you know what she cries

00:21:16.380 --> 00:21:24.280
 about? Do you know what, you know, what she dreams about? Do you know what she's afraid of? And it's like,

00:21:24.280 --> 00:21:29.080
 I wish I had paid attention to that question because I think that was my soul kind of trying

00:21:29.080 --> 00:21:35.420
 to go, hello in here. Like we're saved, but we're not well. And, but I had no imagination for that

00:21:35.420 --> 00:21:40.680
 being not the exact one in the same thing. And we get into that in a little bit in the course. And

00:21:40.680 --> 00:21:47.960
 it's like, I think that's why, like, how is it? I was just down in the YWAM basin in Kona

00:21:47.960 --> 00:21:55.500
 yesterday. And, you know, people all over the world, all these large, global, passionate, energetic,

00:21:55.860 --> 00:22:01.280
 visionary ministries that we love, that we are, these are the kind of leaders we are, right?

00:22:02.320 --> 00:22:07.240
 And how is it that it could be so categorically predictable that people on the field, whether

00:22:07.240 --> 00:22:12.580
 it's compassion or Christ church or the valley or any, the, any ministry that really cares about

00:22:12.580 --> 00:22:20.780
 mission, isn't just floating along rather predictably could say we can set a clock in our

00:22:20.780 --> 00:22:27.080
 organization for when people start burning out. Yep. Yep. I mean, please tell me, I'm not like

00:22:27.080 --> 00:22:32.340
 calling out YWAM on any of this, like this is. No, no, no. It's systemic. YWAM, Willow,

00:22:32.900 --> 00:22:38.740
 Saddleback. I mean, you just, every, every one of our heroes. It crosses tribe. It crosses

00:22:38.740 --> 00:22:44.520
 denomination. Exactly. Exactly. It doesn't even matter. It crosses geography. I've been all over the

00:22:44.520 --> 00:22:50.660
 world. Yeah. Me too. Salvation Army around the world, like all these other things. So, and of

00:22:50.660 --> 00:22:56.800
 course, digital spaces. So. Yeah. And digital spaces, there's some nuances there in the digital

00:22:56.800 --> 00:23:03.440
 space for, there's a couple of things that I, that I, that I find are true and that Joey touched on is

00:23:03.440 --> 00:23:09.980
 that people will share things that they wouldn't normally do in a face-to-face interaction without

00:23:09.980 --> 00:23:18.180
 some kind of level of, uh, getting to know you a little bit better, you know, they'll just get right

00:23:18.180 --> 00:23:26.420
 to it, wherever the area of pain is, it's there. You couple that with the breadth of reach,

00:23:26.520 --> 00:23:36.440
 that, um, digital tends to have where, you know, it was different when you could only physically meet

00:23:36.440 --> 00:23:46.160
 a certain number of people around you geographically to be exposed to the level of pain that people

00:23:46.160 --> 00:23:51.800
 might have. You multiply that times every single person around the globe. It's brilliant. That is

00:23:51.800 --> 00:23:59.720
 willing to instantly share their deepest pain that in some cases you need to call the police

00:23:59.720 --> 00:24:09.800
 about, you know, and get, because someone might die. Right. So you, you ratchet up the urgency along

00:24:09.800 --> 00:24:19.720
 with the volume of people in digital ministry. And you couple that with the sense because of the

00:24:19.720 --> 00:24:25.480
 the geographic distance, while they might share with you things and be, you might be exposed to all the

00:24:25.480 --> 00:24:34.520
 pain, the tools that you have at your disposal to actually help actually are less than if you were

00:24:34.520 --> 00:24:40.920
 physically by somebody and you could say, okay, you know, let's make sure nothing really bad happens.

00:24:41.640 --> 00:24:49.560
 You couple all of those things together and you just got a recipe for some interesting

00:24:49.560 --> 00:24:56.760
 and odd dynamics that are probably worse for the digital minister than you would have for just your

00:24:56.760 --> 00:25:04.120
 average Joe Schmoe minister missionary. Cause I've been there. Right. It's different in that way.

00:25:04.120 --> 00:25:07.320
 How does the 24/7 nature of it?

00:25:07.320 --> 00:25:08.200
 Yes.

00:25:08.200 --> 00:25:12.440
 Right. Cause it's like people are responding to an, uh, an altar call

00:25:13.640 --> 00:25:19.400
 simultaneous to one another 24/7. Right. And there's no like sequencing. There's not even a line.

00:25:19.400 --> 00:25:26.360
 It's like all in your face the minute somebody hits you. Right. That's like. Absolutely. Yeah.

00:25:26.360 --> 00:25:32.760
 Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's. There's a piece of that. I feel like Mindy that you just touched on

00:25:33.720 --> 00:25:40.440
 that we could gain a lot of guidance from the way that Jesus managed it because

00:25:42.600 --> 00:25:47.080
 you know, he had crowds and that were around him all the time that would follow him when he was just

00:25:47.080 --> 00:25:58.200
 trying to take a break. So he figured out ways of turning it off by, you know, escaping early in the

00:25:58.200 --> 00:26:06.120
 morning or sleeping in a boat or just random things like that we hear in the story. But we as digital

00:26:06.120 --> 00:26:10.920
 ministers don't feel like we have the permission to turn it off like Jesus did. Yeah.

00:26:11.560 --> 00:26:17.400
 Yeah. And that's a problem. Yeah. I think he had complete comfort

00:26:19.160 --> 00:26:27.400
 walking away from a sea of need in order to reconnect with the father and actually be given

00:26:27.400 --> 00:26:34.520
 instructions to go in a different direction. Yeah. We, so I put myself in the position of that person

00:26:35.160 --> 00:26:40.520
 who was not healed by Jesus because he turned around and left. Right. Right.

00:26:40.520 --> 00:26:49.000
 We need to be, you know, real about those situations because it's at some point he had to turn it off.

00:26:51.400 --> 00:26:56.920
 And sometimes he just walks in, he just asked the disciples, are you going to feed them? I'm done.

00:26:58.280 --> 00:27:03.720
 Right. Right. Might've been that, you know, there's Mary clouds book boundaries like back in the day.

00:27:03.880 --> 00:27:09.960
 Right. I love that book in it. I remember him making a strong argument for boundaries toward,

00:27:09.960 --> 00:27:16.760
 toward work, which of course is an area that I struggled with and landed myself into such a physical,

00:27:16.760 --> 00:27:22.920
 like, you know, I ended up with physical symptoms that sidelined me because I was such an idiot not to pay

00:27:22.920 --> 00:27:32.600
 attention to the normal way to wake up to this. Um, but you know, I think for, for Jesus, the,

00:27:33.320 --> 00:27:42.760
 the ability to know with great peacefulness, not even anxiety with peacefulness of what God had

00:27:42.760 --> 00:27:49.080
 invited him into and what God hadn't invited him into allowed him to just say yes or no, as the case

00:27:50.040 --> 00:27:56.680
 may have been and, and not get all, you know, like I need permission. Like, I don't even know that he would

00:27:56.680 --> 00:28:02.520
 have made it use those words that we have to use. He just was like, I'm just doing whatever the father's

00:28:02.520 --> 00:28:07.880
 doing. So here we are. And that, like, I'm not suggesting he was unconcerned about the needs,

00:28:07.880 --> 00:28:15.320
 but he did not let that care that as a human, you have compassion for someone else hijack what God was

00:28:15.320 --> 00:28:20.760
 inviting me into. And cloud in boundaries was suggesting that if you have this sort of overfill life

00:28:21.640 --> 00:28:28.200
 of things that supposedly God has invited you to do, like somehow you've said yes to something other

00:28:28.200 --> 00:28:35.400
 than God. And we have to call that what it is. And it could have looked like another night at the church

00:28:35.400 --> 00:28:39.720
 teaching. It could have looked like kicking up another prayer ministry. It could have looked like

00:28:41.000 --> 00:28:45.720
 you name the things that cause us to go into overdrive in Jesus name.

00:28:46.600 --> 00:28:51.720
 And the thought that I could have been saying yes to something other than God,

00:28:53.480 --> 00:28:55.880
 and then let's call that what it is. Let's see that.

00:28:57.080 --> 00:28:59.240
 Right? What's the word, Jason? What do we call that?

00:29:00.760 --> 00:29:01.880
 I don't want to say it.

00:29:01.880 --> 00:29:05.640
 I know you don't want to say it. You're not standing in the corner.

00:29:09.080 --> 00:29:09.880
 That's scary.

00:29:09.880 --> 00:29:12.440
 What it is. It's scary.

00:29:12.440 --> 00:29:19.960
 It's scary, but it's like sin. Let's call it here. I have, is it possible that sin could look like

00:29:19.960 --> 00:29:24.360
 ministry? It's so you guys are going to, you know, excommunicate me after this.

00:29:24.360 --> 00:29:28.120
 No, it's like, it's like,

00:29:30.360 --> 00:29:36.600
 we have to get that intense. And I remember one time, like, because this workaholism in the church

00:29:36.600 --> 00:29:42.600
 planning context is rampant. Right? And we don't, we feel like it's all on us. We got to make it all

00:29:42.600 --> 00:29:46.760
 happen. We got to be there for everybody. We got to do all the things. And I'm not saying there aren't

00:29:46.760 --> 00:29:52.360
 things that need to be done in seasons when something is a little bit more than whatever normal is.

00:29:52.360 --> 00:30:00.600
 But we all know that most of us blow way past that, whatever that used to be. And I remember one

00:30:00.600 --> 00:30:05.400
 time reading the thing that Jesus said to the disciples about like, well, you know,

00:30:05.400 --> 00:30:11.480
 unless you leave your family and leave this and leave that and leave all those things and come

00:30:11.480 --> 00:30:15.480
 after me, then you can have no part of me or whatever. It's one of those verses I'm, I'm butchering.

00:30:16.280 --> 00:30:21.320
 And I got mad. I started talking to God as I was reading the Bible. I was like, that is not okay.

00:30:21.320 --> 00:30:26.680
 There are families that are dying because some pastor took that verse and trashed their kids.

00:30:26.680 --> 00:30:32.120
 And I'm like, that is not okay. That, and, and so I'm like, you know, have you ever struck up a

00:30:32.120 --> 00:30:40.120
 rather marked conversation? So guys, here's the gentleness. Like, this is a big deal. I don't,

00:30:41.480 --> 00:30:47.080
 I don't know if I've ever told many people this. So he's like, um, God's like, no, go back and read

00:30:47.080 --> 00:30:53.160
 it again. And I was like, well, I know I see what it says. You say, if they leave that, and if they leave

00:30:53.160 --> 00:30:57.720
 that, and if they leave that for the sake of the kingdom, he's like, wait, read it again.

00:31:00.040 --> 00:31:05.480
 For the sake of the kingdom. Okay. What does it not say? For the sake of an ego,

00:31:06.600 --> 00:31:14.360
 for the sake of their inability to say no, we slap kingdom language on all kinds of assignments.

00:31:14.600 --> 00:31:15.240
 There we go.

00:31:17.480 --> 00:31:24.200
 We make those mental connections and then justify all manner of terrible behaviors to ourselves and

00:31:24.200 --> 00:31:32.200
 others on the basis of kingdom work that was never our particular assignment within the kingdom.

00:31:33.480 --> 00:31:39.640
 And we say yes, because we can't say no, we need to be needed. Our ego feels like we got to fill the

00:31:39.640 --> 00:31:43.560
 whole room up and who's going to do it. If we don't like, there's all kinds of things that that

00:31:43.560 --> 00:31:49.800
 verse does not say. And I do believe that when that assignment comes and there are times when God

00:31:49.800 --> 00:31:56.600
 needs us for the sake of the kingdom, not our definition, but his invitation moment by moment,

00:31:56.600 --> 00:32:03.320
 where we do have sacrifices that get made, but more so is added. But we have a lot of people who've made

00:32:03.320 --> 00:32:09.160
 those sacrifices and generations of kids who do not want to follow the God of their parents.

00:32:10.040 --> 00:32:16.680
 Well, listen, that could not be more current, I think, than it is today. You look at it,

00:32:17.320 --> 00:32:23.480
 how many pastors that are listening to this, and pastors that are not listening to this, but they should,

00:32:25.240 --> 00:32:30.600
 are now struggling because the pews are empty and people are not coming back.

00:32:31.320 --> 00:32:36.040
 Right? So the church leadership, the church pastors, the church leadership,

00:32:36.040 --> 00:32:39.720
 they start making a priority is how we're going to bring people back in.

00:32:40.280 --> 00:32:40.920
 Only question.

00:32:40.920 --> 00:32:46.840
 And the question that I ask is, at what point you're going to stop running a nonprofit and you're

00:32:46.840 --> 00:32:47.960
 going to start running a church?

00:32:47.960 --> 00:32:50.040
 Yes. Yes.

00:32:50.040 --> 00:32:55.560
 At what point you're going to stop doing that? Because, because again, the question number one

00:32:55.560 --> 00:33:03.160
 I get from churches, when asked me, said, I need to hire a digital pastor. And I got this guy in my

00:33:03.160 --> 00:33:07.160
 church that likes technology. I like this guy who likes communication. I'm going to promote my

00:33:07.160 --> 00:33:14.280
 communications guy. And I cannot stop saying, I cannot say fast enough, stop picking up anybody.

00:33:14.280 --> 00:33:21.160
 You need somebody that's actually has the pastor call to be in their digital ministry, because there's no

00:33:21.160 --> 00:33:26.280
 time in digital ministry for small talk. When people come and hit you with a problem, they will hit you

00:33:26.280 --> 00:33:33.000
 with a problem. And somebody has to be ready to take care of that soul. And I think today we're

00:33:33.000 --> 00:33:38.360
 losing sight as a church in general, we're losing sight of the ministry because we're getting blighted

00:33:38.360 --> 00:33:45.160
 by the crisis that the churches are seeing themselves in. Instead of like, step back. I had this

00:33:45.160 --> 00:33:51.000
 conversation with some pastors that they ask about, you know, we cannot get enough volunteers in our

00:33:51.000 --> 00:33:55.000
 church. We got the same people volunteer. And I was like, I don't think you have a volunteer crisis.

00:33:55.880 --> 00:34:03.080
 I have, I think you have a disciple crisis. You see, if you had disciples, you will not be able to

00:34:03.080 --> 00:34:07.240
 don't, there's no need to beg people to serve, to give, to do anything else, because if somebody is

00:34:07.240 --> 00:34:14.520
 a real, a real disciple of Christ, everything else falls in place. And I think today, more than ever,

00:34:15.400 --> 00:34:21.400
 I think there's thousands of pastors just here in America that need to take a break,

00:34:21.400 --> 00:34:29.800
 they need to stop, they need to realign their souls. Just like I'm doing, Jason's doing,

00:34:29.800 --> 00:34:36.440
 other pastors are doing. Because I think that, for the sake of the kingdom, is where it's not at.

00:34:36.440 --> 00:34:40.760
 Yeah, what if that's the biggest thing? I've been saying this, I was with a group,

00:34:42.040 --> 00:34:45.480
 I think one of the, I've worked with leaders, giving them assignments for different kinds of

00:34:45.480 --> 00:34:51.240
 things. And you guys have been so gracious to talk about your resistance to receiving

00:34:51.240 --> 00:34:55.640
 care for yourselves, right? And I don't think that's abnormal at all. That's very typical.

00:34:56.600 --> 00:35:02.280
 I had one very senior leader of a very global network who will, no one needs to know who,

00:35:02.280 --> 00:35:07.400
 but in the, more in the nonprofit space than in the, um, than direct church, but very familiar

00:35:07.400 --> 00:35:15.720
 with church, very similar dynamics leadership wise. Right. And, uh, and I mean, he, I believe

00:35:15.720 --> 00:35:21.080
 that leader is representative of many, probably everyone on this call. Like they will leap tall

00:35:21.080 --> 00:35:25.560
 buildings in a single bound. They will stay up for four days, getting a strategic plan ready. They will

00:35:26.280 --> 00:35:33.320
 answer questions forever from lost people. They will, they will put, I mean, they'll eat the second

00:35:33.320 --> 00:35:38.520
 dinner and the third dinner. And I mean, they will just be available to the needs of the community

00:35:39.400 --> 00:35:43.240
 And they have no, they have no, they have very high tolerance for doing difficult things.

00:35:45.320 --> 00:35:49.000
 They cannot take two hours to be still and be with God.

00:35:51.800 --> 00:35:58.200
 That is a harder assignment than build a team, preach a sermon series.

00:35:59.080 --> 00:36:04.600
 And I could not believe it almost got comical. Cause I kept checking in because this was an

00:36:04.600 --> 00:36:10.040
 assignment that through this thing I've given, like, when's that two hour solitude happening?

00:36:11.720 --> 00:36:16.760
 Meanwhile, like books are being written and like all this kind of stuff

00:36:18.040 --> 00:36:25.400
 and I finally realized it's actually harder for them to do that than to do things where they feel

00:36:25.400 --> 00:36:33.000
 productive. And that's, that just eats at our identity that eats at our belovedness in Jesus. Like we,

00:36:33.800 --> 00:36:42.120
 we don't have permission value to just rest in God's presence for two, two hours. That was the

00:36:42.120 --> 00:36:52.440
 assignment. It's been years. I don't know. Still, I got it. We did, we built a solitude experience for

00:36:52.440 --> 00:36:58.840
 the SOS course team. We were talking about this and we were brainstorming, like, maybe we need to create

00:36:58.840 --> 00:37:02.200
 the same kind of appointment type that you can schedule into your calendar.

00:37:03.000 --> 00:37:09.080
 That is, that you still do the same thing. And it's like a two hour block that you have to do.

00:37:09.080 --> 00:37:13.560
 And then they were joking. It was Casey. He had the idea. He's like, what if we put the name of

00:37:13.560 --> 00:37:20.280
 the person that you're having an appointment with? Like it's God that you've got an appointment with

00:37:20.280 --> 00:37:24.520
 God coming up. And I was like, I don't know that could be taken the wrong way and out of context.

00:37:24.520 --> 00:37:29.560
 I don't know that I want to try to tell people they're using our software to schedule time

00:37:30.760 --> 00:37:36.440
 or that God's beholden to us, but I think that's everywhere anytime in multiple time zones.

00:37:36.840 --> 00:37:43.400
 But that's true though. How, how many pastors, how many leaders, how many of us,

00:37:44.680 --> 00:37:52.840
 you know, actually prioritize our time with God in a, in a real way? I'm not just, I'm not saying

00:37:52.840 --> 00:38:00.440
 honest conversations about this. I'm not saying, you know, that your prayer time in your office

00:38:00.440 --> 00:38:06.120
 doesn't count. I'm not saying any of that. I'm saying a day of solitude where you actually

00:38:06.840 --> 00:38:11.640
 are going to dedicate a certain amount of time that you're going to retreat. You're going to like,

00:38:11.640 --> 00:38:15.320
 I'm going to retreat. People are going to have to wait, right? People are going to have to sit

00:38:15.320 --> 00:38:21.000
 in there and wait for a little bit because if I don't have the, my battery is not cool. I'm,

00:38:21.000 --> 00:38:26.680
 I'm not going to be able to help anybody else. Uh, and I think the challenge, the challenge,

00:38:26.680 --> 00:38:33.400
 the tension that is today, I think has more to do with the, the current reality of the churches

00:38:33.960 --> 00:38:40.760
 that they're like, they're running out of strategies to rescue the church, the post-pandemic

00:38:40.760 --> 00:38:46.120
 church. Yesterday, I'm in the meeting, I'm in this fundraising and there's future churches

00:38:46.120 --> 00:38:51.000
 representing my table. And the conversation was for the common conversation was the same.

00:38:51.720 --> 00:38:58.200
 People left my church. They're not coming back. And I, and I, and I, you know, we're,

00:38:58.200 --> 00:39:03.640
 and you can sense the desperation on, on their voices in terms, you know,

00:39:03.640 --> 00:39:08.360
 what we're going to do. I got to bring people back. And, and it's, there is not a conversation

00:39:08.360 --> 00:39:12.440
 in terms of, you know, God has a plan. We're going to trust him and I have to be ready for

00:39:12.440 --> 00:39:17.000
 when God makes the move. And that's why I think the pastors are missing the point. God will make

00:39:17.000 --> 00:39:21.000
 them his move. And I think he's making through this moment right here, right now.

00:39:21.000 --> 00:39:24.120
 Yeah. He's been making a move for the past few years. And we just have,

00:39:24.120 --> 00:39:31.000
 he's letting pastors, he's letting pastors realize that they need to, to, to refocus and realign.

00:39:31.800 --> 00:39:37.000
 And it's hard. And can you imagine, can you imagine what floodgates could open?

00:39:40.200 --> 00:39:44.840
 Here's a little story from the history of science. I'll share with you my little history

00:39:44.840 --> 00:39:51.560
 of science thing. This was my, one of my courses I took in college there. And what it gives me is hope

00:39:52.120 --> 00:39:59.080
 that this doesn't need five years, spiritual formation, PhDs. This doesn't need, right?

00:39:59.080 --> 00:40:02.680
 I mean, how, how difficult would it have been for every single one of the guys at that table,

00:40:02.680 --> 00:40:08.360
 guys, women using that term generically, whoever's there to turn and go like, oh, I think I'm just

00:40:08.360 --> 00:40:14.440
 going to prioritize the wellbeing of my soul, like starting today and let God do whatever he wants

00:40:14.440 --> 00:40:19.400
 through my life. And so that's just going to become my focus. And I'm just going to stay rooted,

00:40:19.400 --> 00:40:24.280
 grounded, that grafted image, right? I'm going to stay there and God can do through me whatever

00:40:24.280 --> 00:40:29.480
 he jolly well pleases. I'm just going to do that. Okay. So immediately stuff starts to happen.

00:40:30.040 --> 00:40:37.640
 When we re-anchor to God, we lay down all the other drivers and we start saluting smartly

00:40:37.640 --> 00:40:41.880
 just to what the Lord is saying and recognizing that we were saluting smartly to other things we

00:40:41.880 --> 00:40:46.280
 thought were God. And we got to, we need help teasing all that out in our brain. Okay. So I

00:40:46.280 --> 00:40:52.840
 know I just said like five really big ideas, but back to the history of science. So in the mid 1800s,

00:40:52.840 --> 00:41:01.080
 there was, um, a really big problem in London and other parts surrounding it where, um,

00:41:01.960 --> 00:41:06.760
 they had a disease that was called child bed fever. Now imagine this look,

00:41:06.760 --> 00:41:11.320
 picture the cul-de-sac that you live on or the country road, wherever you are, the block in the

00:41:11.320 --> 00:41:19.800
 city that you live on. In that period of time in the mid 1800s, six out of 10 women who gave birth

00:41:19.800 --> 00:41:29.320
 died. What does that do to a community? You've got newborn babies who are alive and need care.

00:41:29.320 --> 00:41:33.400
 You've got husbands slash fathers who are trying to scramble, make life work. You've got food.

00:41:33.400 --> 00:41:39.880
 This is the 1800s. We're not talking like open the refrigerator. This is, this is farming. This is

00:41:39.880 --> 00:41:44.440
 communities. These are women who are actively working, keeping everything up. You've got kids

00:41:44.440 --> 00:41:51.880
 at home being schooled. Chaos. I can't even imagine if you in just one neighborhood lost six out of the

00:41:51.880 --> 00:42:02.680
 10 childbearing women. Okay. Um, so naturally the doctors were working so hard to try to get to the

00:42:02.680 --> 00:42:07.560
 bottom of what was going on. So they were having autopsies as fast as they could to try to understand

00:42:07.560 --> 00:42:14.040
 what was happening and they couldn't figure it out. Um, and then another call would be another

00:42:14.040 --> 00:42:19.880
 mom had come into the maternity ward. So those same doctors would go upstairs and deliver babies.

00:42:20.680 --> 00:42:29.720
 Okay. Now the concept of the microbiological world was, was, had, had been discerned, right?

00:42:29.720 --> 00:42:35.240
 There was a lot of advances happening scientifically. They knew there were things that were below the

00:42:35.240 --> 00:42:42.280
 level of what the human eye could discern that were impacting health, but the concept of contagion hadn't

00:42:42.280 --> 00:42:51.480
 yet landed. So the very doctors who were the ones doing the autopsies would go upstairs and deliver

00:42:51.480 --> 00:42:59.240
 new babies and actually be the ones that were introducing the disease to the new moms coming in for delivery.

00:42:59.240 --> 00:43:07.480
 Okay. These people probably mostly men at that time devoted their entire careers to healing and to being

00:43:07.480 --> 00:43:14.440
 helpers. And as the science was advancing, not shockingly, because you can imagine our resistance.

00:43:14.440 --> 00:43:20.280
 And I think the church is a little bit in this moment right now, our resistance to ever realizing we,

00:43:20.280 --> 00:43:28.600
 in fact, were the ones transmitting disease. It took longer than it should have, but eventually the science prevailed.

00:43:28.600 --> 00:43:38.680
 Guys within a matter of like five years, this horrible epidemic that no one could figure out or stop was

00:43:38.680 --> 00:43:47.080
 gone. Maternal death rates plummeted to what would be a normal sort of risk level, which was minuscule.

00:43:47.800 --> 00:43:50.840
 And guess what they had to do in order to reduce it?

00:43:52.040 --> 00:43:53.080
 Wash their hands.

00:43:53.080 --> 00:44:00.840
 Couple simple practices. Now there's no running water. There's no hot water. So you got to figure

00:44:00.840 --> 00:44:05.160
 out how to get hot water to the doctors. You got to figure out how to get soap. You got to figure

00:44:05.160 --> 00:44:13.240
 out some things that are a little inconvenient, but it was gone. The whole epidemic was eliminated.

00:44:13.240 --> 00:44:18.120
 Once these simple practices that now, if you think about, you know, we watch, you know,

00:44:18.120 --> 00:44:22.600
 Grey's Anatomy or some other medical thing. Everybody talks about scrubbing in before you go into surgery.

00:44:23.160 --> 00:44:28.200
 Nobody even thinks about it anymore, but there's a reason doctors have a very strict checklist

00:44:28.200 --> 00:44:34.680
 because this is what, this is what, so guys, don't you see the parallel? It's like, this is what's going on in the unseen.

00:44:35.400 --> 00:44:43.160
 In the unseen, leaders and people are dying inside for lack of lived real-time connection with God.

00:44:43.160 --> 00:44:48.200
 Even though you believe many truths about God that are very important, that is not the same as,

00:44:48.200 --> 00:44:52.760
 am I receiving my life from God moment by moment? And that's what Jesus modeled.

00:44:53.800 --> 00:44:58.280
 When we think of what would Jesus do, what if we reframed that to what would Jesus do?

00:44:58.280 --> 00:45:03.160
 Jesus would moment by moment, day by day, be connecting with the father. And when he needed

00:45:03.160 --> 00:45:09.320
 time away, he would go do that time away because that was the pearl of great price. That was the thing

00:45:09.320 --> 00:45:15.320
 that opens up everything of the way to be human. And that's what I hold great hope.

00:45:15.880 --> 00:45:23.320
 Joey, I really do. I ache over seeing churches even worse now than before the pandemic, in my opinion,

00:45:23.320 --> 00:45:32.200
 at times, having adventure, missing the point. Like it is, it is, it is, we have had the invitation of

00:45:32.200 --> 00:45:39.160
 the last 500 years to reimagine what being the people of God in a local community or in a digital

00:45:39.160 --> 00:45:46.440
 space, what that could mean. Yeah. And to date, so far, there have been many innovations,

00:45:46.440 --> 00:45:52.600
 many people who are sort of returning to a groundedness and a depth of life to actually the church's original

00:45:52.600 --> 00:45:59.720
 vocation was called soul care. Like that's what, that was what the church did is it cared for souls.

00:46:00.680 --> 00:46:06.280
 And, uh, in this way of Jesus, but anyway, we've had a lot of adventures and missing the point,

00:46:06.280 --> 00:46:15.880
 but I don't think it will take 30 years, 80 years to correct this. If each one of us, right, like,

00:46:17.320 --> 00:46:20.920
 these aren't just ideas. They're like, okay, Jason, what are you going to do tomorrow morning?

00:46:20.920 --> 00:46:27.160
 Are you going to go grab your jet fuel? Or are you going to like and figure out how to be,

00:46:27.160 --> 00:46:33.800
 how to be still in the Lord's presence and re-serve the new day, re-anchor to truth,

00:46:33.800 --> 00:46:40.200
 not conceptual truth to the person. Right. Anyway, I'm blah, blahing, but I, I love that story.

00:46:40.200 --> 00:46:46.440
 So to your point, Mindy, uh, you know, when in the,

00:46:46.440 --> 00:46:52.600
 in the little course thing, when you talked about the silent retreat and I couldn't do it because

00:46:53.400 --> 00:46:59.640
 I was literally, I had a flight and so I took your like little guide and decided,

00:46:59.640 --> 00:47:05.400
 I decided, well, you gave me a guide, which was great because I felt like I couldn't participate

00:47:05.400 --> 00:47:09.000
 because, you know, there's no internet up in, you know,

00:47:09.000 --> 00:47:11.240
 Oh, the Saturday, the semi-silent retreat on Saturday.

00:47:11.240 --> 00:47:11.640
 Yes, yes.

00:47:11.640 --> 00:47:12.760
 Is that what you're talking about? Oh, good.

00:47:12.760 --> 00:47:13.400
 Did you do it?

00:47:13.400 --> 00:47:16.440
 So what I did was I took it. I'm like, okay, I've got this.

00:47:17.160 --> 00:47:18.920
 It's got a three hour flight.

00:47:19.880 --> 00:47:21.080
 It's a three hour soldier.

00:47:21.720 --> 00:47:30.280
 That's my silent retreat. So I did it and it was great. Um, when I noticed, you know,

00:47:30.280 --> 00:47:36.520
 that my heart was trying to, you know, it was spitting all over the, you know,

00:47:36.520 --> 00:47:45.240
 the monkey brain was going everywhere. And, um, I also realized that my compulsion to like

00:47:45.240 --> 00:47:50.360
 fill the space with, you know, I had all kinds of Netflix.

00:47:50.360 --> 00:47:55.000
 I had downloaded on my phone. I mean, there's all kinds of, all kinds of things that I could

00:47:55.000 --> 00:48:03.400
 have been doing. Right. Um, and it was, it was a really revealing exercise that all the more

00:48:03.400 --> 00:48:10.040
 punctuated the need for me to have that conversation with Casey, which when I got on the zoom call with

00:48:10.040 --> 00:48:16.360
 him, you know, he's supposed to be like the soul care kind of a counselor. And I just realized in that

00:48:16.360 --> 00:48:26.200
 moment, it's like, okay, this is the new pastor really, especially in a lot of the work that we're

00:48:26.200 --> 00:48:36.200
 doing digitally. Um, the, the vibe and the, I don't know, the spiritual resonance that I was,

00:48:36.200 --> 00:48:42.840
 you know, feeling at that moment, I'm like, this is it. This is, this is just the same thing

00:48:42.840 --> 00:48:50.840
 that a pastor would do sitting down with someone and really caring for them. That's what it is.

00:48:51.720 --> 00:48:57.880
 It's like, okay, well, this is a lot like church, you know, like a pastor, like caring for somebody.

00:48:59.240 --> 00:49:06.680
 So it, it brought into context, a lot of the other initiatives that are bubbling up, like

00:49:06.680 --> 00:49:12.520
 he gets us, or, you know, a lot of these other sorts of things that I thought to myself,

00:49:12.520 --> 00:49:19.480
 perhaps this is the big opportunity for the church to be the solution rather than the problem.

00:49:19.480 --> 00:49:24.120
 You know, going back to your original story, you know, thinking of,

00:49:26.200 --> 00:49:26.680
 you know,

00:49:26.680 --> 00:49:28.280
 doctors being the very ones.

00:49:28.280 --> 00:49:28.760
 Right.

00:49:29.400 --> 00:49:36.280
 It may be that the, I don't think our motivations or our heart or anything, no one's, no one's

00:49:36.280 --> 00:49:42.680
 questioning any of that. No one. I mean, we're killing ourselves because of the motivations that we

00:49:42.680 --> 00:49:51.480
 have because of the love, but our methodologies perhaps could be part of the problem where we think

00:49:51.480 --> 00:49:58.920
 that ephemeral event-based experiences actually do transformation

00:50:01.240 --> 00:50:08.440
 if we continue to do them on a weekly basis and just consume information collectively.

00:50:09.880 --> 00:50:13.400
 Could that not be part of the problem? So in my mind, I'm like,

00:50:15.160 --> 00:50:19.160
 I'm, I'm, I'm hearing that and I'm, I'm experiencing it on a, on a different level,

00:50:19.160 --> 00:50:27.560
 which oddly enough in my position now, um, after 10 months of, and this is a process I'm still in,

00:50:28.680 --> 00:50:35.880
 but disentangling my career from my God, from my church.

00:50:37.800 --> 00:50:40.920
 That's something that has never been separated

00:50:42.680 --> 00:50:49.560
 in my soul ever since. I mean, it's never been, I mean, Gary, I'm 52 years old.

00:50:50.440 --> 00:51:01.080
 And for the first time, I'm seeing those three things, my career, my church, and my God as separate things,

00:51:02.120 --> 00:51:07.480
 which that's, that's a process right there.

00:51:08.840 --> 00:51:11.560
 And I'm understanding to a much greater degree.

00:51:13.080 --> 00:51:17.000
 Um, and again, none of this was with any kind of malice or I don't,

00:51:18.680 --> 00:51:24.280
 I think it's vital to keep saying that all the time, as often as we think it's to keep saying it because

00:51:24.280 --> 00:51:28.200
 no one, no one sets out to trash the well-being of their own soul.

00:51:28.760 --> 00:51:35.560
 No one sets out to create institutions that, you know, could be an adventure in missing the point.

00:51:35.560 --> 00:51:39.240
 That's harsh language, but it's never, it's not the intention.

00:51:39.960 --> 00:51:40.360
 Right.

00:51:40.360 --> 00:51:44.920
 More than those doctors doing their darndest to try to bring, right?

00:51:44.920 --> 00:51:47.880
 Like they're trying to bring science, they're trying to advance the science.

00:51:47.880 --> 00:51:49.480
 They're trying to understand what's going on.

00:51:49.480 --> 00:52:00.040
 Like they were absolutely intending wellness, but had not seen the full picture of what was invisible.

00:52:01.160 --> 00:52:07.080
 And I think that the terms that I've heard in years past and been guilty of myself at times,

00:52:07.080 --> 00:52:13.960
 but I is a huge priority to me is when, when we fall victim of in church leadership settings

00:52:13.960 --> 00:52:16.120
 and stuff like that, I call it functional atheism.

00:52:19.400 --> 00:52:21.400
 And I don't remember where I heard it.

00:52:21.400 --> 00:52:22.040
 It's not original.

00:52:23.160 --> 00:52:23.960
 That's too little.

00:52:24.760 --> 00:52:25.320
 It is.

00:52:25.320 --> 00:52:33.400
 Well, and it's like this idea that we function, we function as if the unseen world or the kingdom,

00:52:33.400 --> 00:52:38.760
 the presence of God, the activity of God, Carla, like you were saying, Joey is like the,

00:52:39.480 --> 00:52:43.720
 the, we function as if that's not the case.

00:52:44.120 --> 00:52:47.480
 Like you said, we just, we do what we know to do.

00:52:47.480 --> 00:52:49.080
 We rest until we see the move of God.

00:52:49.080 --> 00:52:54.120
 We, we go deep until, and then we're like, but wait, how do we pay the bills?

00:52:54.120 --> 00:52:56.840
 And what if, what if so-and-so doesn't come back?

00:52:56.840 --> 00:53:00.520
 And like, we can hold care about those things.

00:53:00.520 --> 00:53:03.480
 We can care about them, but we don't grab them.

00:53:03.480 --> 00:53:04.920
 We don't grab them.

00:53:04.920 --> 00:53:06.520
 We hold care about them.

00:53:06.520 --> 00:53:08.520
 And we say, God, have your way.

00:53:08.520 --> 00:53:09.240
 You move.

00:53:09.240 --> 00:53:12.040
 Well, the scripture is clear.

00:53:12.040 --> 00:53:18.760
 And I think the most encouraging thing for pastors, digital or in-person everywhere right now,

00:53:18.760 --> 00:53:22.520
 is when Jesus says, I will build my church.

00:53:22.520 --> 00:53:23.240
 Yeah.

00:53:23.240 --> 00:53:32.120
 So, you know, and I know that today, this time is a big struggle for pastors everywhere,

00:53:32.600 --> 00:53:34.200
 not seeing people coming back.

00:53:34.200 --> 00:53:42.760
 Or, and I think, I think more than that, Mindy, is because of that, digital pastors and online

00:53:42.760 --> 00:53:46.360
 pastors, whatever you want to call, they're being left behind.

00:53:47.080 --> 00:53:49.080
 They're being ignored by the church leadership.

00:53:49.640 --> 00:53:54.600
 They're being like, you're a second-class citizen, because nobody, we cannot pay attention to this

00:53:54.600 --> 00:53:58.360
 digital platform thing, because we need to get people when you're getting on the way.

00:53:58.840 --> 00:54:00.280
 This is just real.

00:54:00.280 --> 00:54:02.600
 Like, this is the reality right now.

00:54:02.600 --> 00:54:03.480
 Oh, upside down.

00:54:03.480 --> 00:54:05.320
 That's so upside down.

00:54:05.320 --> 00:54:10.920
 And I'm telling you, digital pastors right now, they feel alone.

00:54:10.920 --> 00:54:19.240
 They feel, like, ignored because they, I know churches that realign their staff post-COVID,

00:54:19.240 --> 00:54:27.000
 and online pastors are being posted in, like, in-person experience activities to keep their jobs.

00:54:27.000 --> 00:54:29.320
 I've, yeah, I've heard, I've heard this as well.

00:54:29.320 --> 00:54:35.560
 And I think, and again, and it's interesting because, again, go back to these conversations,

00:54:35.560 --> 00:54:36.600
 right, that we have online.

00:54:36.600 --> 00:54:41.960
 Go back to the experience that Jason just had with, with Jason, like, I'm about to go through that.

00:54:41.960 --> 00:54:44.920
 And, you know, we're talking about this amazing experience that we're having online.

00:54:44.920 --> 00:54:46.200
 Look at what we're doing right now.

00:54:47.000 --> 00:54:55.480
 And I keep thinking, look about, you know, all the money that glue is putting on he gets is

00:54:55.480 --> 00:54:56.680
 a hundred million dollars.

00:54:56.680 --> 00:54:57.560
 Yep.

00:54:57.560 --> 00:55:01.960
 And these people are not going to go to church first to find help.

00:55:01.960 --> 00:55:08.440
 They're going to use digital platforms to connect first with people to develop the relationships.

00:55:08.440 --> 00:55:17.960
 So, again, it's not really the time to actually ignore what Jesus is doing to build his church.

00:55:17.960 --> 00:55:18.600
 No.

00:55:19.640 --> 00:55:24.200
 Because, and I'm not saying here, again, I'm not saying that digital came to replace it.

00:55:24.200 --> 00:55:28.040
 I always said digital is an extension of a local church.

00:55:28.040 --> 00:55:29.720
 We're always going to need local churches.

00:55:29.720 --> 00:55:30.680
 I remember you saying that.

00:55:30.680 --> 00:55:33.480
 Digital is here to extend your local church.

00:55:34.440 --> 00:55:39.400
 And to ignore your digital pastor, or to put it in the pastor in the sidelines, or to

00:55:39.400 --> 00:55:47.000
 not pay attention to actually God's doing through all this, then I'll tell pastors, if you think that

00:55:47.000 --> 00:55:48.280
 way, you need soul care.

00:55:49.640 --> 00:55:50.840
 You need some time with God.

00:55:50.840 --> 00:55:53.800
 I mean, I'm really not trying to be funny.

00:55:53.800 --> 00:55:55.160
 I'm like, you need soul care.

00:55:56.040 --> 00:56:05.400
 Because that's the difference between running a nonprofit and actually going back to your

00:56:05.400 --> 00:56:05.800
 calling.

00:56:05.800 --> 00:56:08.280
 Because I believe every pastor has a calling.

00:56:08.680 --> 00:56:10.360
 Don't depart from your calling.

00:56:10.680 --> 00:56:16.280
 But you will at the moment that you're still no longer is being cared for, right?

00:56:17.320 --> 00:56:20.760
 We're all at risk when that, I mean, isn't it the best?

00:56:21.080 --> 00:56:24.520
 Most impressive strategy of the enemy.

00:56:25.160 --> 00:56:28.200
 Like, what's the best thing you can do to every single Christian leader?

00:56:28.200 --> 00:56:29.960
 Unplug them from the electrical source.

00:56:31.000 --> 00:56:32.040
 And then you're just a lamp.

00:56:32.600 --> 00:56:33.640
 You're not even bright.

00:56:33.640 --> 00:56:38.920
 You hope the lampshade was white and it passed off a little bit of light through that or something.

00:56:38.920 --> 00:56:41.560
 Like, it's just, it's not, it's the most ridiculous thing.

00:56:41.560 --> 00:56:42.840
 Who are we when we're plugged in?

00:56:43.560 --> 00:56:45.480
 We're a completely different entity.

00:56:45.480 --> 00:56:50.680
 But the one thing I would say to digital pastors, and I do feel so sad for those

00:56:50.680 --> 00:56:53.800
 who feel not seen, not valued.

00:56:53.800 --> 00:56:56.200
 Like, that's just such a lonely, achy.

00:56:56.200 --> 00:56:57.160
 Like, you're a visionary.

00:56:57.160 --> 00:56:57.880
 You're out there.

00:56:57.880 --> 00:57:00.200
 You're pioneering new places.

00:57:00.200 --> 00:57:01.400
 You're seeing fruit.

00:57:01.400 --> 00:57:03.960
 And then you get the lights cut out from under you.

00:57:03.960 --> 00:57:05.800
 I mean, that's really hard.

00:57:07.320 --> 00:57:17.000
 The one thing I will say is you've got the power of the kingdom, not at your disposal to do

00:57:17.000 --> 00:57:21.880
 whatever you want with, but that's what's available to you every minute, even while you're

00:57:21.880 --> 00:57:24.200
 listening to us right now.

00:57:24.200 --> 00:57:33.080
 And God will build his church, exactly like God will build, you or your pastor might try to build

00:57:33.080 --> 00:57:37.000
 their church, but God will build his church.

00:57:37.000 --> 00:57:42.200
 And you have a critical part in that, and you might not even know what that is yet.

00:57:42.200 --> 00:57:43.880
 You might think you know, but you don't know.

00:57:44.280 --> 00:57:48.760
 And having the humility that I don't know, but I know I'm part of this.

00:57:48.760 --> 00:57:57.320
 And to move into slower paces, a deeper connection with God, not numbing out to the pain, the

00:57:57.320 --> 00:58:01.400
 frustration, the disillusionment, the disappointment that we've all had.

00:58:03.240 --> 00:58:09.160
 And finding ways to rest in God, right where you are, right?

00:58:09.640 --> 00:58:12.920
 Even if your heart is for digital and you had to take a paying job,

00:58:13.960 --> 00:58:18.040
 creating set designs and services, like that's real.

00:58:18.040 --> 00:58:19.640
 I get that we have to feed our families.

00:58:19.640 --> 00:58:22.760
 We got to do, but the Lord knows, he knows your heart.

00:58:22.760 --> 00:58:23.560
 He knows your gifting.

00:58:23.560 --> 00:58:25.000
 He knows your passion.

00:58:25.000 --> 00:58:33.880
 And I have seen unbelievable things open up when we choose to rest ourselves in God's presence to,

00:58:35.240 --> 00:58:39.640
 like Matthew 11 would suggest to, you know, Jesus says, walk with me,

00:58:39.640 --> 00:58:43.800
 work with me, watch how I do it, learn the unforced rhythms of grace.

00:58:44.840 --> 00:58:50.680
 And I am crazy enough to believe, but I also have seen it and lived it that when you live in those

00:58:50.680 --> 00:58:54.760
 unforced rhythms of grace, you will not be able to stop what God is going to do through you.

00:58:54.760 --> 00:59:00.920
 And whether it comes through, he gets us, which could flood coming guys, there is a flood coming.

00:59:02.040 --> 00:59:05.080
 Who is going to catch these people who, who is ready.

00:59:05.080 --> 00:59:07.880
 And they're not walking through the front doors and sitting in your sanctuary.

00:59:09.160 --> 00:59:14.360
 Who's going to catch these people who knows how like Casey to sit and hold space with people

00:59:15.160 --> 00:59:18.920
 without pulling out a tool belt and bludgeoning people with things.

00:59:18.920 --> 00:59:24.440
 Like who knows how to just hold space with people in Jesus' name.

00:59:25.240 --> 00:59:31.480
 And if we can do that, I believe the God of the universe is the one that's going to meet them in

00:59:31.480 --> 00:59:32.120
 those spaces.

00:59:32.120 --> 00:59:37.880
 Like Casey's a wonderful man, but you met Jesus through that connection with Casey, not just Casey.

00:59:38.440 --> 00:59:44.760
 So it's like, that's the beauty of these new ways of engaging and being in with people.

00:59:45.000 --> 00:59:53.000
 Like, you don't know what, when you choose to live in those unforced rhythms, anchored deeply to the

00:59:53.000 --> 00:59:56.840
 real-time presence of God with you, you won't be able to stop what God's going to do.

00:59:56.840 --> 01:00:01.560
 And the, and the, the, you will not have to defend your cause is I guess what I'm trying to say.

01:00:04.280 --> 01:00:11.400
 There will be undeniable fruit that you won't, you don't even have to strat plan your way into.

01:00:11.400 --> 01:00:17.720
 You will not have to do strat ops to get there. You will not have to do any of those other things.

01:00:17.720 --> 01:00:22.840
 Now you may along the way, do some of those things, but the driver is the spirit of the

01:00:22.840 --> 01:00:27.400
 living God. And you're going to see fruit out of it. That's not because you were so smart,

01:00:27.400 --> 01:00:31.480
 not because you're so clever. I was just telling the story yesterday. I won't bore you with the

01:00:31.480 --> 01:00:36.040
 details, but it's like, in the end, it's way better to be led than smart.

01:00:39.240 --> 01:00:44.040
 The world's smart, hardworking people can do. I don't, I don't want the story of my life,

01:00:44.040 --> 01:00:48.040
 the headline of my life to be what a relatively intelligent, hardworking person could do like

01:00:48.040 --> 01:00:53.320
 that. We've had enough of that. That's functional atheism. The world has enough atheism.

01:00:54.200 --> 01:01:01.240
 We need, we need people alive to the living God and able to be conduits of the spirit.

01:01:03.080 --> 01:01:04.760
 And that's what you guys are poised to do.

01:01:07.880 --> 01:01:14.440
 Yeah, there's like, every time I hear about he gets us.

01:01:16.280 --> 01:01:21.720
 There's two things that pop off in my head. One is, I think what they meant to say was that Jesus

01:01:21.720 --> 01:01:33.480
 understands us. But the other thing is, um, um, we're up the church. Uh, we're all he has to work with.

01:01:33.960 --> 01:01:44.520
 He gets us, you know, all of our, all of our craziness and all of our, uh, uh,

01:01:44.520 --> 01:01:56.040
 dysfunction. That's who Jesus gets. Right. And so all the more reason to have our souls in order

01:01:56.760 --> 01:02:05.640
 when it comes time to help others under understand how much Jesus does understand what they've go

01:02:05.640 --> 01:02:15.320
 through. Um, yeah, us feeling the same anxiety that we have people calling in and the, the challenge

01:02:15.320 --> 01:02:23.480
 to us and Peter that we associate with evangelism is that we should be ready to be prepared to give a,

01:02:23.480 --> 01:02:30.760
 what is it? Defense for the hope we have. Yeah. And I think a lot of us think that is a,

01:02:30.760 --> 01:02:36.440
 a logical, be ready to tell people certain precepts about God. And again, these are

01:02:36.440 --> 01:02:43.480
 important. I'm not diminishing the importance of truths about God, but friends, do we have hope?

01:02:45.240 --> 01:02:53.320
 Yeah. Yeah. We have hope. And is that one asking you, is your hope so evident that anyone is asking you,

01:02:55.080 --> 01:03:05.400
 who is your God? What is your, what is your hope? And I would hope that the kinds of pastors and

01:03:05.400 --> 01:03:10.440
 volunteers and leaders and digital pastors, whoever that's on the other end of this, who gets us

01:03:10.440 --> 01:03:19.800
 campaign is not bringing principles and precepts, but is actually able to hold space and verbally or even

01:03:19.800 --> 01:03:28.280
 non-verbally convey that they are a person of hope. Yeah. I, the thing I, I, I finally, I got a volunteer

01:03:28.280 --> 01:03:36.680
 now being part of it. And, and, and I said, don't, uh, don't talk about a church initially, just build

01:03:36.680 --> 01:03:42.680
 a relationship because that's, and I said, I want to be able to think this way because after a couple

01:03:42.680 --> 01:03:51.320
 messages, I'm exchanging with people conversations, I start thinking, man, this person had absolutely,

01:03:51.320 --> 01:03:59.240
 I asked myself, did they have anybody else to talk about this? They had to go to a platform to share

01:03:59.240 --> 01:04:07.080
 their hearts. Like, is it possible that this person didn't have anybody in their lives that they could

01:04:07.080 --> 01:04:14.600
 just call and say, Hey, I need to talk to you about this. And if, if, if that's not enough red flag for

01:04:14.600 --> 01:04:19.720
 the church today to realize how much we're absent from our own communities,

01:04:21.560 --> 01:04:29.480
 because people know where we are, they know our address, but still they rather go to a platform

01:04:31.000 --> 01:04:37.800
 to desperately to ask somebody for a help. And I think again, that's, to me, that's the opportunity.

01:04:37.800 --> 01:04:43.640
 That's when we as a church, we have the opportunity to open our eyes and say, Hey,

01:04:45.000 --> 01:04:49.560
 there's an opportunity here to really connect with people. This is not a problem. This is not an issue.

01:04:50.200 --> 01:04:57.240
 This is an opportunity. Are we ready for it? Like, like you said, the harvest is, it is plentiful.

01:04:57.240 --> 01:05:06.040
 Like it's there, ready, waiting. But, but are we ready to, to embrace, like you said, the flood that's

01:05:06.040 --> 01:05:11.240
 coming because it is coming and, and people are finding a way to have those conversations.

01:05:12.120 --> 01:05:19.480
 Um, and are we ready? Even that's why, that's why I think this conversation is so vital right now

01:05:20.120 --> 01:05:28.680
 to digital pastors, to in-person experienced pastors, to all kinds of pastors, to, to do your, your

01:05:28.680 --> 01:05:35.800
 self-examination right now in your soul, in your spirit, and verify, am I, am I ready for what God's

01:05:35.800 --> 01:05:43.080
 going to bring next? And because it is our responsibility to maintain that relationship with him.

01:05:45.880 --> 01:05:56.360
 It is. And, and I just, I, I want to not evoke fear or condemnation in anyone, wherever, not,

01:05:56.360 --> 01:06:02.840
 I know you don't either. I'm just saying like, we all get how easy it is to trash the well-being

01:06:02.840 --> 01:06:11.640
 of your soul in the middle of ministry. It would be more considered the norm and expected. I'd be

01:06:11.640 --> 01:06:18.280
 shocked. I, I mean, I've talked to people in rooms all over the world, all over the U S this is more

01:06:18.280 --> 01:06:24.760
 the norm than not. And so even with the big bearing down on us that he gets up flood of people that's

01:06:24.760 --> 01:06:32.280
 coming, I would say, don't look at that right now. Yeah. It's cool. It's going to happen. God's in it.

01:06:32.280 --> 01:06:39.240
 Let's just let that be on its path. Be grateful that the full flood hasn't yet kicked in yet.

01:06:41.000 --> 01:06:49.320
 And let this time be a call to action. That's about you and your real time in the moment. Like,

01:06:49.320 --> 01:06:56.040
 what is it that's going to help you stay connected to God? That's could be as different as every person

01:06:56.040 --> 01:07:01.160
 that listens to this. If there's a way that soul care or any other great ministry that can help you

01:07:01.160 --> 01:07:08.920
 in that, that's our charter. Um, that's this team DC ends here to support you in that, like whatever,

01:07:09.480 --> 01:07:18.520
 whatever we can do, um, to support one another in this. Um, it's okay for now to just say that needs to

01:07:18.520 --> 01:07:24.280
 be my focus. I don't, I don't have anything to give until, until I have something to give

01:07:24.840 --> 01:07:29.800
 and I can't put a timeline on it. I can't put it, whatever I need to get to the point where,

01:07:30.760 --> 01:07:36.200
 you know, talks about being a cheerful giver that each one of us gives, you know, we preach on tithing,

01:07:36.200 --> 01:07:39.960
 right? You know, each of us should give, you've decided in our heart to give not reluctantly or

01:07:39.960 --> 01:07:44.840
 under compulsion, but God loves a cheerful giver. I remember in my recovery, soul recovery season,

01:07:45.960 --> 01:07:52.040
 I, again, it was through boundaries. I was, I noticed that verse. Um, and you know, it's like,

01:07:52.040 --> 01:07:57.960
 we don't only give money, we give time, we give energy, we give capacity, gifting, we give all that

01:07:57.960 --> 01:08:04.040
 stuff. And I was in that season. I'll speak for myself. I'm not saying for anybody else, but I,

01:08:04.040 --> 01:08:08.920
 if I was honest and I had to get to the point of being honest and Jason, that's what a journal

01:08:08.920 --> 01:08:15.560
 helped me with. Cause like, I was not being a little plug, silent plug, all this,

01:08:15.560 --> 01:08:20.600
 spiritual bypass is what we do. Right. And we just keep going, buck up a little camper, whatever.

01:08:21.560 --> 01:08:25.640
 I was getting to the point where I was willing to be honest and I had to be honest and go

01:08:26.840 --> 01:08:31.240
 almost every single thing I'm doing for the ministry was

01:08:33.480 --> 01:08:35.480
 filled with resentment and under compulsion.

01:08:37.960 --> 01:08:43.800
 What is compulsion? I have to do it. If I don't do it, somebody else, I, somebody is making.

01:08:46.040 --> 01:08:52.520
 And if I, and I, I really remember writing about this in my journals, like, oh my gosh, like if I

01:08:52.520 --> 01:09:00.200
 literally considered a vow that I will only do things that are coming freely out of what I have in my

01:09:00.200 --> 01:09:04.920
 heart to give. Cause it's like, I could write you a $10 million check for whatever you care about,

01:09:04.920 --> 01:09:10.280
 but that thing is going to bounce. I do not have that in my checking account to give. And we write

01:09:11.400 --> 01:09:17.480
 tracks that are being overdrawn all the time to our families, to our ministries or whatever we are

01:09:17.480 --> 01:09:23.480
 constantly in overdraft mode. Um, and that's not generous is not generous for me to give you a $10

01:09:23.480 --> 01:09:31.320
 million check. It's not for a minute. You're like, that's awesome. And then you're like, this sucks.

01:09:31.720 --> 01:09:37.400
 I, I, I bought $250,000 worth of stuff on that thinking that the check was going to clear, right?

01:09:37.400 --> 01:09:43.240
 Like we cause harm in our systems because we're writing checks that are not going to clear.

01:09:44.120 --> 01:09:49.480
 And if we said, have I made a vow and I did for a while, um, and I hope I'm still living it,

01:09:49.480 --> 01:09:56.200
 that I'm only going to give what I have in my heart to give. And I draw a line at doing anything

01:09:56.200 --> 01:10:01.640
 reluctantly or under compulsion. And cause we read that verse and we're like, okay,

01:10:01.640 --> 01:10:06.040
 so slap on a happy face and keep giving. Cause God loves a cheerful giver. And that's not the point

01:10:06.040 --> 01:10:12.120
 of the verse at all. When it's coming out of overflow. Yes. There's joy. There's cheerfulness.

01:10:12.120 --> 01:10:18.200
 There's delight. Even there's, there's like, it's full of all kinds of fun stuff, but when it's not,

01:10:19.000 --> 01:10:26.280
 it, it, that's the grind. That's the, that's the death by church for us in ministry. It is,

01:10:26.280 --> 01:10:33.400
 it is serious. And I had to stay in that verse. I think I was in that verse for like a year or two

01:10:33.400 --> 01:10:40.360
 because I was so challenged by it, confronted by it, had a hard time living by it, but I, I did,

01:10:40.360 --> 01:10:44.520
 I did come to the point where I was starting to live that way. Like I would literally, people would

01:10:44.520 --> 01:10:48.840
 ask me to do a thing and I would, I had learned to go, do I have this in my heart to give?

01:10:50.680 --> 01:10:54.520
 I had to do that check. Do I have it in my heart to give? And then I would decide accordingly.

01:10:56.360 --> 01:11:02.280
 Do you know the next verse? Like I didn't make it to the next verse for like two years. I'm so glad

01:11:02.280 --> 01:11:06.040
 it didn't, but the next person I'm going to butcher it. I don't have it in front of me, but it's like

01:11:06.040 --> 01:11:10.680
 this, you know, and God is able to make all things abound to you so that in all things and in all

01:11:10.680 --> 01:11:18.600
 circumstances, at all times you'll have whatever you need. But I don't think you get to that until you

01:11:19.480 --> 01:11:27.160
 set that boundary because you're that those checks will clear. The ones we write will not.

01:11:29.000 --> 01:11:34.360
 You see the difference? Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. I could talk to you for four days.

01:11:35.400 --> 01:11:42.680
 I love this. Let me tell you, I don't want to, um, I want to be respectful of everybody's time here, but

01:11:44.200 --> 01:11:51.080
 we cannot go without you telling us about Soul Care. Tell us about Soul Care. What is, what is, what it is,

01:11:51.080 --> 01:11:59.560
 Soul Care Ministry? No, you're talking about the actual like training stuff, not the concept of Soul Care,

01:11:59.560 --> 01:12:03.480
 because that's always what you're talking about. Exactly. No, but I'm talking about the ministry now.

01:12:03.480 --> 01:12:10.120
 So pastors can understand what you offer as a ministry. In fact, when I, when people say what is Soul Care,

01:12:10.120 --> 01:12:16.200
 I usually say there's like three years, there's Soul Care is my personal way of life. This is how I've

01:12:16.200 --> 01:12:23.720
 learned to, to be a follower of Jesus in the world. And yes, right. It's also become a message that I

01:12:23.720 --> 01:12:29.400
 care a ton about. And so some of what Soul Care is, is I speak at events or retreats and that kind of

01:12:29.400 --> 01:12:34.840
 stuff, help write books, that kind of stuff. That's, that's about getting message out. But the really fun

01:12:34.840 --> 01:12:39.400
 thing for me in this season of my life is that there is a whole team of people coming around

01:12:39.400 --> 01:12:47.240
 this message and this way of life, trying to help it be as accessible to as many people globally as we

01:12:47.240 --> 01:12:53.560
 can. And so that's where new like online digital communities have spun up. It's called the Soul

01:12:53.560 --> 01:12:58.680
 Care Collective. People can go to collective.soulcare.com. They can join that community. It's free,

01:12:58.680 --> 01:13:03.080
 global. There's people doing great stuff, digital events, in-person events. We should

01:13:03.080 --> 01:13:07.640
 be learning more from you guys about how we're using it to create community and digital spaces.

01:13:08.600 --> 01:13:14.200
 But we're learning. And so that's, that's one facet of it. We offer these spiritual directions,

01:13:14.200 --> 01:13:20.360
 services and coaching services. And that, you know, sometimes individuals find us and we,

01:13:20.360 --> 01:13:26.760
 we serve them as individuals and everything gets sort of handled through the digital platform. So

01:13:26.760 --> 01:13:35.240
 everything is done in digital spaces. Um, and then some of our work in that services realm is with

01:13:35.240 --> 01:13:41.160
 organizations where we have partnerships with some larger churches that are offering this as an HR

01:13:41.160 --> 01:13:48.600
 service to their staff. So our team supports that church. We invoice that church and their HR department

01:13:48.600 --> 01:13:53.560
 covers the direction and coaching for that organization. We have another one that's spinning up

01:13:53.560 --> 01:13:58.920
 this month that wants to do their global ministry. They have people all over the place in really hard

01:13:58.920 --> 01:14:06.840
 places. And so having a digital way to come alongside them with something that is works for them,

01:14:06.840 --> 01:14:13.160
 it's just a, such a sweet opportunity for us to serve. And then the third newer way is all around

01:14:13.160 --> 01:14:19.160
 these, um, sort of digital courses. But the really cool thing is that sort of end up bundling together,

01:14:19.160 --> 01:14:25.000
 some of the writing, some of the in-person digital in-person experiences of spiritual direction and

01:14:25.000 --> 01:14:31.000
 that, and that's the soul care access that we are just doing a pilot of right now with the hopes that

01:14:31.000 --> 01:14:35.960
 as we get feedback and make improvements, it's something we can offer, um, in a more, you know,

01:14:35.960 --> 01:14:44.040
 repeatable turn way, um, to do our part for this. So that's what soul care is now an organization.

01:14:44.040 --> 01:14:49.400
 And it's a term that many, many people use. I'm certainly not the only one in 1998,

01:14:49.400 --> 01:14:56.040
 I did snag soulcare.com. So I was smart enough to listen. I was smart enough to listen to the tech

01:14:56.040 --> 01:15:01.000
 people in my life that said, you should register that domain name to which I said, what does that

01:15:01.000 --> 01:15:05.800
 mean? And they're like, well, you're doing all this soul care stuff. You should register soulcare.com.

01:15:05.800 --> 01:15:13.880
 I said, what is that? What would I ever use that for? In 1998, who knew, right? You guys probably did.

01:15:13.880 --> 01:15:22.760
 Yeah. No, that's, uh, I'll make sure that we share, um, your website, uh, on the description. So make

01:15:22.760 --> 01:15:29.240
 sure to look forward to that and make sure people can see it and, and to reach out to you. I'm telling

01:15:29.240 --> 01:15:37.400
 you now by experience that it is fantastic. I mean, it's so good. And I cannot wait to finish it. You're

01:15:37.400 --> 01:15:43.400
 right. It's kind of interesting. I cannot go to the next session. Yeah, she did it that way. I was

01:15:43.400 --> 01:15:49.160
 like, that was tricky. I was like, I want to finish this thing in two days. I was like, I want to finish

01:15:49.160 --> 01:15:52.920
 this thing in two days, right? And I'm like, go to the next step, session two. And I was like, but

01:15:52.920 --> 01:15:59.720
 it doesn't show anything. Where's the video? Right. I was like, wow. Wow. She really got the right

01:15:59.720 --> 01:16:05.320
 people around to, to, to put this thing together. Cause you cannot cheat the system. You just can't,

01:16:05.320 --> 01:16:11.640
 right? You can't like, it doesn't matter. You can still binge your Netflix, but you can't binge soulcare,

01:16:11.640 --> 01:16:17.880
 buddy. There's no family and friends plan here. It's like, if you're in it, you're in it and you have

01:16:17.880 --> 01:16:26.440
 to go through it. So I was like, oh, I surrender. I love it. I'll surrender. I'll do it. That's fine.

01:16:26.440 --> 01:16:34.040
 But maybe listen, thank you so much though, for your time. Thank you. I'm really praying for you,

01:16:34.040 --> 01:16:41.560
 the ministry and, um, uh, in the, how much, how many good things I think are going to come out of this

01:16:41.560 --> 01:16:46.520
 and how many pastors are actually going to get lift up because of what you're doing.

01:16:46.520 --> 01:16:55.080
 We want to help. And I hope they, I hope these pastors are listening to like,

01:16:55.080 --> 01:17:02.040
 because this is one thing I, I really, uh, I love about what you're doing is that you're

01:17:02.040 --> 01:17:10.440
 really focusing on our leadership. The best really need this. Second thing is, um, I realize even though

01:17:10.440 --> 01:17:17.160
 I'm in a season where I need it, um, I think by the time you realize you need it, it's too late.

01:17:19.000 --> 01:17:26.440
 Um, and, and I think pastors listening to this thinking my church is going great. My family is great. My life is great.

01:17:26.440 --> 01:17:32.200
 And I thinking, yeah, you really need to soak here and take care of it because that's usually where

01:17:33.000 --> 01:17:37.160
 we, we get deceived that we think everything's going okay. I don't need help.

01:17:39.000 --> 01:17:43.560
 And, and, and I, I really encourage you every pastor, regardless of where you are in your season

01:17:43.560 --> 01:17:51.560
 to just check this out, to go check it out and take a look at it. And, and, and, and just, and, and I promise

01:17:51.560 --> 01:17:56.760
 you're going to help you, uh, whatever season you are in your ministry, but I appreciate that. Jason, I always,

01:17:57.400 --> 01:18:03.960
 uh, uh, uh, we always have fun doing this thing here. Oh yeah. We talk to people and, and we can

01:18:03.960 --> 01:18:09.800
 spend hours, but man, I, I really appreciate it. I am actually, Mindy, um, uh, I already look at your

01:18:09.800 --> 01:18:15.720
 websites. I'm looking for, to actually come back to Colorado to see one of their, there's been

01:18:15.720 --> 01:18:16.920
 some time where it is.

01:18:16.920 --> 01:18:22.920
 This is all this program. And, uh, the other thing we do, I didn't even think to mention it. Um,

01:18:22.920 --> 01:18:27.320
 it's been building and growing is we do a lot of support for people on sabbatical.

01:18:27.880 --> 01:18:32.760
 So we have a lot of different ways to support people during before, during, and after a

01:18:32.760 --> 01:18:37.720
 sabbatical, sometimes with physical space, sometimes just with spiritual direction, sometimes with an

01:18:38.440 --> 01:18:44.440
 ingoing and outgoing consultation about how to optimize that season. Cause it's sadly,

01:18:44.440 --> 01:18:53.000
 it's possible to really squander a sabbatical. So we are, we are coming alongside leaders in a lot of

01:18:53.000 --> 01:18:59.800
 places, uh, around sabbatical as well. And yeah, so thanks. Thanks for, um, the invitation with you

01:18:59.800 --> 01:19:05.720
 guys. You know, I've been a fangirl of everything you're doing. And for ever since I met you, you

01:19:05.720 --> 01:19:09.080
 know, I came in and I came out a believer.

01:19:09.080 --> 01:19:11.400
 I know.

01:19:11.400 --> 01:19:15.160
 I was in Colorado. That's why we had that first meeting.

01:19:15.160 --> 01:19:16.040
 There we go, right?

01:19:18.040 --> 01:19:23.800
 I know we're in Colorado. It was just an amazing meeting, but I'm so glad we, we got to connect

01:19:23.800 --> 01:19:29.320
 this way here, have this conversation. I say, listen, have a great day, everybody. Have a great

01:19:29.320 --> 01:19:32.440
 weekend. Um, and we'll, we'll go from here.

01:19:32.440 --> 01:19:38.840
 Love it. Thanks. Glad to join you guys whenever. See you all.