WEBVTT 00:00:00.180 --> 00:00:05.780 Hey, everybody. Welcome to the Church Digital Podcast. Jeff here. We are doing another bonus 00:00:05.780 --> 00:00:11.600 episode. We're going to do a podcast takeover. That's right. Somebody else is running their 00:00:11.600 --> 00:00:17.160 show on the Church Digital Podcast here this Thursday. We are in the Church Digital in the 00:00:17.160 --> 00:00:21.580 middle of season four talking about Jesus, Gamers, and Church. But we're going to pause 00:00:21.580 --> 00:00:27.720 every Thursday. We're going to feature somebody, one of the shows from the TCD Podcast Network. 00:00:27.720 --> 00:00:32.560 And this week, we're featuring Hector Martinez and Sarah Kendrick. That's right. We're digging 00:00:32.560 --> 00:00:37.320 in on the Pocket Pulpit Podcast. Say that three times fast. I challenge you. I dare you. Well, 00:00:37.320 --> 00:00:42.680 go ahead and wait. Let's see. One, two. All right. I'm kidding. I'm not really going to wait for the 00:00:42.680 --> 00:00:49.920 third time. Hey, listen, these guys are great. Dynamic duo with a unique perspective. It's 00:00:49.920 --> 00:00:55.520 actually one of the things that first attracted me to their show maybe a year ago was their perspective 00:00:55.520 --> 00:01:03.140 of using social media for ministry and social media within the church, like for discipleship, 00:01:03.200 --> 00:01:07.180 social media and disciple. Like some of their perspective, I was like, I'm not sure you can do 00:01:07.180 --> 00:01:11.500 that. And then like I actually dug into it and listened. I was like, this is really, this is really, 00:01:11.580 --> 00:01:17.440 really good. And so I love their unique perspective. I love the fact they love Twitter as much as they 00:01:17.440 --> 00:01:21.780 do. They're all in Twitter, even though they're relatively new into the space. But you know what? 00:01:21.860 --> 00:01:27.860 That's cool as well. And so what I really love here is their interview. And they were so gracious 00:01:27.860 --> 00:01:35.880 to give it to me so that I can let you listen to it. They interviewed the Joe Saxon a couple months 00:01:35.880 --> 00:01:42.500 ago. And it's an incredible interview. And I am so excited that you get to hear it right now. So 00:01:42.500 --> 00:01:46.640 here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to get out of the way. And I'm going to let Hector and I'm 00:01:46.640 --> 00:01:52.080 going to let Sarah from the Pocket Pulpit podcast dive in here with this interview of Joe Saxon. Wait 00:01:52.080 --> 00:01:58.380 one second. If you want to, if you love these guys, if you like this podcast, go ahead and click over 00:01:58.380 --> 00:02:02.960 to the show notes, subscribe to their podcast. And if you want to check out maybe some of the other 00:02:02.960 --> 00:02:07.120 shows we're doing through the TCD podcast network, you can click on that link as well. Both are in the 00:02:07.120 --> 00:02:13.560 show notes or go to the church.digital slash podcast. But either way, there's some great 00:02:13.560 --> 00:02:18.440 opportunities to get exposed to some fresh ideas about what digital ministry looks like in social 00:02:18.440 --> 00:02:23.080 media. And here's what I'm going to do now. I'm really going to shut up. And let me get you connected 00:02:23.080 --> 00:02:28.080 to Sarah, to Hector and their interview of Joe Saxon. All right, everybody, here you go. 00:02:28.420 --> 00:02:33.600 The way ministry is going to happen with us in the things that I lead, in the ways that I lead, 00:02:33.680 --> 00:02:39.400 have to have that level of tangible vulnerability, have to have that level of showing up where 00:02:39.400 --> 00:02:45.340 I'm a learner too, you're a learner too. But also we don't need to have a big production over this. 00:02:45.600 --> 00:02:49.340 Yeah, we do production quality and all that kind of stuff as and when we can. But I mean, 00:02:49.440 --> 00:02:53.920 as a character, as a person, we show up as human beings. And if we're grieving today, 00:02:53.980 --> 00:02:58.140 we're grieving. If we're happy today, if we're angry today, the gamut of the human condition is 00:02:58.280 --> 00:03:02.380 now to be seen. Because I see that in the Bible. I just don't, sometimes I just don't see that in 00:03:02.380 --> 00:03:10.620 the events that we do. You're listening to the Pocket Pulpit Podcast with Sarah Kinzer and Hector 00:03:10.620 --> 00:03:18.120 Martinez, part of the TCD Podcast Network. Hey all, welcome again to another episode of the Pocket 00:03:18.120 --> 00:03:24.620 Pulpit. On the Pocket Pulpit, we're exploring social media and the intersection of social media 00:03:24.620 --> 00:03:33.400 ministry, really how people are using the digital space to build community, to minister, to see people 00:03:33.400 --> 00:03:40.400 and to really impact the world and impact the people around them online and in online spaces. 00:03:41.540 --> 00:03:47.840 It's just been such a great exploration. As you heard, we are part of the Church Digital Podcast 00:03:47.840 --> 00:03:53.340 Network now. That's been a great journey for us to be on as well. So make sure you check that out as 00:03:53.340 --> 00:04:00.480 well. Today I'm joined by my co-host, Sarah. Hey, hey. Hey, Sarah. And today we also have our friend 00:04:00.480 --> 00:04:06.760 Jo Saxton on the show. Hi. Hey, so good to have you here. Thank you for having me. It's great to 00:04:06.760 --> 00:04:12.880 be here. Absolutely. This is, I'm excited for this conversation and just to hear a little bit about, 00:04:13.060 --> 00:04:17.280 yeah, just online communities and a few other things. I think especially, I don't know about 00:04:17.280 --> 00:04:21.140 you, Sarah, but especially just kind of where conversations online have been in the last couple 00:04:21.140 --> 00:04:28.520 weeks. I think this is just a really great conversation to have. Yeah, timely. Yeah, absolutely. 00:04:29.840 --> 00:04:35.480 So y'all may already know Jo as an author, a speaker and teacher, podcast host, leadership coach. 00:04:35.840 --> 00:04:40.160 She's dedicated her career to developing leadership teams and investing in women in leadership. 00:04:40.280 --> 00:04:46.100 And like, I could list everything she's done and tell you much. I tell you how much I love like 00:04:46.100 --> 00:04:52.860 everything she touches, like her last book, Ready to Rise or her podcast with Steph O'Brien, 00:04:52.980 --> 00:04:56.000 Lead Stories podcast, but that would take up all her time. And she's a busy, busy lady. 00:04:56.900 --> 00:05:00.500 So we are so grateful that she's taken time to talk to us today. 00:05:01.520 --> 00:05:08.460 Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Thank you. So Joe, outside of the, what you do kind of categories, 00:05:08.860 --> 00:05:14.380 who, who are you and who are your people? What is, what's your world like? 00:05:15.820 --> 00:05:21.400 My world is pretty ordinary, really. I am a, like all of us, I'm a Brit. I'm a Nigerian Brit. 00:05:21.600 --> 00:05:27.920 I grew up in London. So my family are all around the world. Um, my people, my people span from 00:05:27.920 --> 00:05:33.880 Nigeria, um, England, Hong Kong, my brother lives in Hong Kong and, and we're in the States 00:05:33.880 --> 00:05:41.820 in Minneapolis. Um, I'm married, um, to a guy who is in FinTech and I have two teenage girls. 00:05:42.180 --> 00:05:49.600 And so when I'm not doing the work kind of thing, I am doing carpool or, or talking with 00:05:49.600 --> 00:05:57.140 teenage girls about their, their dramas, um, or shopping at Target. And, um, yeah, that it's a, 00:05:57.260 --> 00:06:00.940 it's an ordinary world, really. Oh yeah. We have a dog. We have a dog. That's the other thing. 00:06:01.260 --> 00:06:07.860 What's your dog's name? His name is Mungo. Is Mungo a good dog? No, no. 00:06:08.580 --> 00:06:16.840 Excellent. He, um, is a canned carrier like Toto in the Wizard of Oz. And he, he is a pain, 00:06:16.920 --> 00:06:22.080 but he is a very loved pain by our household. So, you know, you love the people who love the dog. 00:06:22.180 --> 00:06:31.120 So that's the thing. Best kind of pain. Apparently. Apparently. Yeah. Well, Joe, uh, what, 00:06:31.440 --> 00:06:36.320 before we started, what, what platforms are you on and what's your preferred platform? 00:06:37.200 --> 00:06:42.240 Um, my preferred platform probably varies. So, I mean, apparently I have a Pinterest account, 00:06:42.240 --> 00:06:47.220 um, from back in the day when I was saving recipes I was never going to do and planning 00:06:47.220 --> 00:06:52.780 house things I was never going to do or clothes I was never going to buy. So that's there. Um, 00:06:53.020 --> 00:06:58.880 I have a Twitter account. I've fallen out of love with Twitter currently. Um, I have a Facebook 00:06:58.880 --> 00:07:05.800 page, personal page, and I have a kind of author page. Instagram is probably the one I use most. 00:07:05.800 --> 00:07:12.000 Um, I think I do have a YouTube channel. I just haven't used it very well and LinkedIn as well. 00:07:12.280 --> 00:07:18.100 LinkedIn. So to be honest, at different moments, different things become more, um, critical to 00:07:18.100 --> 00:07:25.080 my work and life by ebb and flow. Cool. Cool. Cool. Well, the heart of our podcast is talking about 00:07:25.080 --> 00:07:29.900 doing ministry online and you do a phenomenal job of this and you build community and train people like 00:07:29.900 --> 00:07:33.940 no one else. And I'm going to try not to gush, which it might already be too late. 00:07:35.380 --> 00:07:39.400 But you, Joe, you already know how much I like the people I like, and you know how much I like you. 00:07:39.640 --> 00:07:44.560 So it's just, it might just be what it is, but I found you a couple of years ago speaking at a 00:07:44.560 --> 00:07:48.540 conference, maybe if, and I know I looked you up on YouTube and watched some of the messages you'd 00:07:48.540 --> 00:07:52.800 given. I remember sitting at lunch with some coworkers and talking about if we could eat lunch with 00:07:52.800 --> 00:07:57.720 anyone, who would we, who would we pick to be at our table? And I picked you. And partly because 00:07:57.720 --> 00:08:02.200 I was impressed with your messages and stuff, but also because I thought like you would accept 00:08:02.200 --> 00:08:07.120 the invite because it felt like even just from hearing you speak that maybe we were already 00:08:07.120 --> 00:08:13.820 friends. Like it was just, you're so personal and connect so well. And so that was, that was 00:08:13.820 --> 00:08:18.000 where you were a couple of years ago. Then that brings us to the part of the story that everyone's 00:08:18.000 --> 00:08:23.020 story goes right now. And then 2020 happened. And so conferences and book tours and all those 00:08:23.020 --> 00:08:26.980 things just shut down and you and everybody else in the world had to go online. 00:08:27.720 --> 00:08:35.400 Yeah. Yeah. Sarah's told me a little bit about the tea time, which, you know, I, I got a little 00:08:35.400 --> 00:08:40.800 bit of, a little bit of understanding what that was. Uh, I, I unfortunately didn't get to see any of 00:08:40.800 --> 00:08:46.880 those, but just kind of understanding that it really is just, this was something you started in the 00:08:46.880 --> 00:08:51.720 pandemic if I remember correctly. And so we, we actually haven't talked to anybody who's used 00:08:51.720 --> 00:08:57.840 Instagram or Facebook live as a way to invest in people. Yeah. So I'm interested in a little bit 00:08:57.840 --> 00:09:02.900 of, of how you came to the idea and then kind of the journey of where that went. 00:09:03.860 --> 00:09:08.900 Yeah. I, I think what happened was I'd released a book and I was one of the joyous people who book 00:09:08.900 --> 00:09:14.520 had come out in March, 2020 way before any, any of us knew, or was it April the 7th? I don't know. 00:09:14.580 --> 00:09:19.080 You know, that blurry time when we were just at home and we had a tour and all of these things 00:09:19.080 --> 00:09:23.800 planned and everything fell through the floor as, and, and needed to, and needed to fall through 00:09:23.800 --> 00:09:28.880 the floor. But I was kind of left thinking, what do we do now? How do you connect with people now? 00:09:29.420 --> 00:09:33.580 Um, and like everybody, there was that sense of shock and fear and my family are all around the 00:09:33.580 --> 00:09:37.940 world. And I'm like, I can't see anybody. I can't be in it. I don't know how we do this. I don't 00:09:37.940 --> 00:09:42.840 know how we function. Um, and knowing that I clearly wouldn't be the only person who felt that 00:09:42.840 --> 00:09:48.380 way. And, um, I remember talking to one of my team and I said, you know, if I did it and they 00:09:48.380 --> 00:09:51.240 were saying, you could do this online, do that online. I said, honestly, I don't want to do, 00:09:51.800 --> 00:09:57.720 I don't know how to do a conference online or all of the event online. I'm not tech savvy. I know 00:09:57.720 --> 00:10:02.780 it's necessary. I like it for the most part, but I joined Instagram to give my family a photo album. 00:10:02.780 --> 00:10:07.000 I didn't join it for any other reason. The rest of it was just weird to me. Um, 00:10:07.720 --> 00:10:11.880 and that, so, and to stay in touch with, I use Facebook to stay in touch with my, 00:10:12.000 --> 00:10:14.700 my college friends overseas. Do you know what I mean? All of that kind of stuff. 00:10:14.940 --> 00:10:18.940 But I remember saying to a member of the team, if I did anything with people, I just have a cup of 00:10:18.940 --> 00:10:23.920 tea. I don't want to do a sermon online. I don't want to do that. I'm just going to have a cup of 00:10:23.920 --> 00:10:29.480 tea with people. I can't be slick because I'm not slick. And if I try and be slick, it's going to fail 00:10:29.480 --> 00:10:35.120 after about three days. Do you know what I mean? I said, I need to just do what I do. And what I do is 00:10:35.120 --> 00:10:41.580 have snacks. You know what I mean? And, um, and I, and I said, there was that piece. And so, 00:10:41.680 --> 00:10:46.640 and then alongside it, it was, if you feel called to minister to people, does that change because 00:10:46.640 --> 00:10:53.240 it's a lockdown or does the vehicle change? And I think I had to reckon with that the platforms and 00:10:53.240 --> 00:10:57.120 the stages and the events were vehicles. They weren't an end in themselves. They were just a 00:10:57.120 --> 00:11:02.980 vehicle for serving people. So what does it look like to serve people now? Um, so I just decided to 00:11:02.980 --> 00:11:08.380 get on and have, and have a cup of tea in people's presence. I mean, really that was, that was the, 00:11:08.480 --> 00:11:15.120 that was the beginning goal of just, and I read bits of the book initially. And then I would chat 00:11:15.120 --> 00:11:20.420 to people about how their day was or a blog I'd read or, um, something I'd seen. And, and then I, 00:11:20.540 --> 00:11:26.160 and I would kind of hook my phone to my laptop so I could do Facebook and Instagram at once. So I would 00:11:26.160 --> 00:11:31.940 kind of be switching between who I saw and who I chatted to and realized after, and I did them 00:11:31.940 --> 00:11:36.860 every day. I did it every day, three o'clock, well, Monday to Friday, three o'clock. And it's 00:11:36.860 --> 00:11:41.380 initially it was like a 10 minute thing, a 15 minute thing. And then, and then I think as we 00:11:41.380 --> 00:11:46.980 watched current events during 2020, and as people would do repeat appearances, do you know what I mean? 00:11:47.100 --> 00:11:53.980 Um, you build community by being regular, by being consistent in some way and by being accessible. 00:11:53.980 --> 00:11:58.460 So I'd ask what people were drinking and, and then I, obviously I am an extrovert processor, 00:11:58.460 --> 00:12:03.360 so I don't really think about what I'm saying. And so then you'd say something, I, you know, 00:12:03.380 --> 00:12:08.380 I'm also opinionated. So I'd say something and then you'd realize you'd get some pushback or just 00:12:08.380 --> 00:12:13.340 response like, you know, eggnog is disgusting or things like that, which I believe it is. I think 00:12:13.340 --> 00:12:17.860 it is Christmas phlegm and you say things and then you realize there's a, you know, you build rapport 00:12:17.860 --> 00:12:23.840 with people and, and I think that's how the community began to emerge. And then alongside that, 00:12:23.880 --> 00:12:27.460 there are a number of events happening in 2020, the death of George Floyd, the murder of George 00:12:27.460 --> 00:12:31.600 Floyd, it coming to light about the death of Ahmaud Arbery and stuff. So there's these conversations 00:12:31.600 --> 00:12:36.780 which are happening around that as well. And how do I live into that? And yeah, here you are having 00:12:36.780 --> 00:12:41.640 a cup of tea with people, but your heart is breaking. And actually I'm mad. I'm angry about this 00:12:41.640 --> 00:12:48.920 consistent stream of injustice around black bodies and other people coming to say they're angry and 00:12:48.920 --> 00:12:54.140 they're upset and they're frustrated too. So I think there was this, I think a combination of just 00:12:54.140 --> 00:13:00.920 showing up and being there live and having a few minutes and then hearing from people. Actually, 00:13:00.920 --> 00:13:06.380 I've been kind of gearing my day around this 15 minute moment and connecting with a lot of caregivers 00:13:06.380 --> 00:13:11.060 who are like, welcome everybody to our world where everybody has been remote. It kept on evolving 00:13:11.060 --> 00:13:16.360 from there. I don't know that I ever had much planned. It was just, it was just a goal to have 00:13:16.360 --> 00:13:22.900 a cup of tea with people. It definitely became part of like my routine. I remember like, so you're, 00:13:23.240 --> 00:13:28.300 it was three o'clock for you. It was four o'clock for me. And it was like, the kids were home all the 00:13:28.300 --> 00:13:35.300 time. I set up a tent in our backyard so that I could have a place to go do some work that wasn't 00:13:35.300 --> 00:13:40.620 inside of my house. I'd be like, I'm going to work and go to the tent in my backyard. I would go sit in 00:13:40.620 --> 00:13:45.180 my hammock in the summer. And I remember that you don't like eggnog. I also remember like the commentary 00:13:45.180 --> 00:13:52.000 about seltzer water and how it tastes like, like yesterday, like a memory. 00:13:56.140 --> 00:14:01.500 But also like, I hear how you say like, this wasn't something that you were trained to do. And this 00:14:01.500 --> 00:14:07.160 wasn't something that you felt particularly gifted at. It was just something you could do and like a 00:14:07.160 --> 00:14:13.080 different, a different vehicle. And you just got in and you learned to drive and that you were yourself 00:14:13.080 --> 00:14:19.620 in the driver's seat. I remember it was very powerful to me that you, you got on after George 00:14:19.620 --> 00:14:27.440 Floyd. And I just remember that like, you didn't have all the answers and you didn't have an explanation, 00:14:27.440 --> 00:14:35.500 but you had tears. And I remember just thinking like your tears and the quiet in that moment was, 00:14:35.500 --> 00:14:41.660 was like a whole sermon unto itself. That vulnerability was teaching and touching, you know, 00:14:41.900 --> 00:14:48.400 those times it built a safe place in my day where I could go and have a normal conversation when no 00:14:48.400 --> 00:14:52.480 conversations felt normal. Yeah. And I, and I remember, you know, like, 00:14:52.480 --> 00:15:00.380 like talking about how to keep a plant alive or, um, the, the way that people would reply to you in 00:15:00.380 --> 00:15:04.900 the feed and you were very natural and including them in the conversation. And I think that's just 00:15:04.900 --> 00:15:10.860 part of who you are as an includer. And I mean, even on YouTube, I thought I was like, Oh, Joe and I 00:15:10.860 --> 00:15:16.620 are now friends. We've never, you know, I've seen Joe, I've seen her talk. And so we're now friends 00:15:16.620 --> 00:15:22.760 apparently, but it made that safe space. Do you think that that forum or that vehicle, 00:15:22.760 --> 00:15:26.880 do you think it's still relevant or is that time shifted? What do you think? 00:15:27.640 --> 00:15:33.320 Um, I think the intensity of that time has shifted. I think the intensity for sure, 00:15:33.480 --> 00:15:40.080 because at that point we were kind of, we were at home. We needed to be at home. Everybody had to 00:15:40.080 --> 00:15:44.500 stay at home. There was no vaccine. There wasn't even a full awareness of what we were dealing with. 00:15:44.500 --> 00:15:49.620 Um, and around just a sense of around the world, um, because there were people who would come from 00:15:49.620 --> 00:15:55.140 different countries, um, that we were in this spot. And so then the, and our lives have been 00:15:55.140 --> 00:16:00.260 completely deconstructed. So there, there was this desperate need for some kind of normality, 00:16:00.360 --> 00:16:09.140 some kind of rhythm, some kind of arc of the week. I think now there is a, I, I think we have 00:16:09.140 --> 00:16:13.520 more mobility and more movement and more freedom of movement. And people want that, you know, 00:16:13.520 --> 00:16:21.180 and people's jobs and things are, are, are still working out certain things. But is, I think, 00:16:21.220 --> 00:16:25.860 is there still a place? Yeah, I do think there is still a place because I, because the relationships 00:16:25.860 --> 00:16:31.560 that were built were real for people and the, and the conversations were important, but in the same 00:16:31.560 --> 00:16:39.260 way that I had to learn not to be wedded to the vehicle of, of a physical building, I think it's the 00:16:39.260 --> 00:16:43.760 same learning. You don't, you learn not to be wedded to a particular vehicle of afternoon tea Monday to 00:16:43.760 --> 00:16:51.440 Friday. Um, and, and it's holding it lightly and, and observing what serves people now. Not even what 00:16:51.440 --> 00:16:56.080 should I do now, but what serves people now? And to know what serves people now, you have to observe 00:16:56.080 --> 00:17:00.600 their context. You have to observe their conditions to say, well, maybe they don't need it every day, but 00:17:00.600 --> 00:17:05.800 maybe once a month or once a week is appropriate. It may be a rambling, open-ended conversation may not be as 00:17:05.800 --> 00:17:11.340 important as a specific thing because you've been on a journey together and you don't want to go 00:17:11.340 --> 00:17:16.500 around in circles. So it's asking what serves people best, what serves your life best? You know, 00:17:16.600 --> 00:17:20.500 their lives have changed. My life has changed. My kids' lives have changed. And you have to hold all 00:17:20.500 --> 00:17:27.140 of those things with open hands and just say, okay, now what fits? I don't know how we can have the 00:17:27.140 --> 00:17:32.900 platforms that we have digitally and us not use them in some way. Yeah. Because they are, they are, 00:17:32.900 --> 00:17:37.420 for as long as they're here to stay something in terms of our ministry, there is here to stay as 00:17:37.420 --> 00:17:44.160 well or needs to be. Absolutely. Absolutely. The thing we talk about, like the vehicle has changed, 00:17:44.160 --> 00:17:50.280 but the thing that you said following George Floyd that really stood out to me and changed a lot about 00:17:50.280 --> 00:17:54.620 how I thought about doing ministry was you said, you know, we've, we've done these things. We've had 00:17:54.620 --> 00:17:58.980 these, we go to these conferences and we listen to these things. And, and for what, like, 00:17:59.020 --> 00:18:04.640 are we changing or is it, does it matter? And I just remember thinking like, you know, 00:18:04.700 --> 00:18:09.720 as leaders were to equip people for works of service, not gathered together for a feeling. 00:18:10.280 --> 00:18:13.960 Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, and I think that's a challenge for us on social media as well, 00:18:13.960 --> 00:18:20.780 because I remember I, in that, in the week after George's murder, um, there was a lot of, 00:18:20.880 --> 00:18:29.360 okay, let's all listen and learn to black voices. I think I gained 35,000 followers in two days. I 00:18:29.360 --> 00:18:36.440 mean, it was, it was jarring. It was, it was discombobulating. It was, it was like that it was 00:18:36.440 --> 00:18:40.740 weird. And on one level, and so the tea times grew and were bigger and all these things as well, 00:18:40.740 --> 00:18:45.440 because people were coming to here and how do you serve this, this audience who are hungry and who 00:18:45.440 --> 00:18:50.460 are trying to work things out and how do you deal with your own trauma and your own fear and your 00:18:50.460 --> 00:18:54.740 processing with your kids. And obviously I live in Minneapolis. So, you know, how do you deal with 00:18:54.740 --> 00:18:59.880 all of these things that are happening on you in your moment, in your town, in your cities? Um, 00:18:59.880 --> 00:19:03.680 I'm not downtown, but I'm close enough. I'm a black woman and living in these times, 00:19:03.780 --> 00:19:09.280 all of us have been impacted in to a degree, but you know, the other interesting thing that happens 00:19:09.280 --> 00:19:15.620 as well is that the times there is a marked, I have a marked loss of followers. Whenever I talk 00:19:15.620 --> 00:19:20.940 about being black, whenever I talk about the black experience, when I talk about Breonna Taylor, 00:19:21.200 --> 00:19:27.380 when I talk about, I just noticed it. And I mean, in the hundreds. And so in the same way that 00:19:27.380 --> 00:19:35.000 our physical realities, we can buy the books, we can go to events and stuff. We can learn all these 00:19:35.000 --> 00:19:39.100 things. We can ask all these questions. That same reality happened on social media as well, where 00:19:39.100 --> 00:19:46.880 it's easy to put a black square up and to follow various people, but it's interesting to watch the 00:19:46.880 --> 00:19:54.140 losses as well that happened at that time and what they are geared around and that, and for us to work 00:19:54.140 --> 00:20:03.020 out how, how fragile, how low is the bar we're willing to go on some of these things? Yeah. One. And I 00:20:03.020 --> 00:20:08.840 guess like one of the, the kind of the things that I keep hearing and thinking about is like the tea 00:20:08.840 --> 00:20:14.800 time. It was this place where, you know, you're offering a place for people to show up. Yeah. Right. 00:20:15.440 --> 00:20:21.720 But at the same time, like in the larger conversation, in the context of larger conversations, 00:20:21.720 --> 00:20:26.960 it's like, but, but are you allowed to show up? Right. And so this idea that like community is where 00:20:26.960 --> 00:20:34.400 everyone gets to show up, that everyone is contributing, that everyone is, is, has some 00:20:34.400 --> 00:20:41.540 opportunity of being heard on some scale. And that whether it is, it's not just about, as Sarah touched 00:20:41.540 --> 00:20:47.040 on this, it's not just about getting up there to teach, getting up there to, to be the person that 00:20:47.040 --> 00:20:53.020 people are listening to, but rather that, you know, we are learning from one another. We are learning 00:20:53.020 --> 00:21:01.100 that, you know, the, the, the places, the things, the, the thoughts, the emotions, like all of those 00:21:01.100 --> 00:21:07.640 things contribute to us being able to learn from one another. And if, if we have a place where, 00:21:07.640 --> 00:21:13.280 I guess the structure of something that, that historically has been built is that the person 00:21:13.280 --> 00:21:21.000 leading can't show up. Yeah. Like there's something wrong because they're the person that's supposed to, 00:21:21.000 --> 00:21:26.720 to, to be the most there, you know? Um, and if they can't be there, Sarah touched on vulnerability, 00:21:26.900 --> 00:21:32.360 if they can't be there and be vulnerable and like, this is where I am and how I come today, 00:21:32.360 --> 00:21:37.700 then there, there's something missing in that community. I won't go as far as to say the community 00:21:37.700 --> 00:21:43.540 doesn't exist, but there is at least something missing. Yeah. I think that, I, I, I think that 00:21:43.540 --> 00:21:51.640 was a huge learning for me and a huge moment to cross for me early on to say, how do you want to do 00:21:51.640 --> 00:21:56.460 this? Because if you were doing a tour or whatever, or doing an event, like you say, you show up and 00:21:56.460 --> 00:22:01.520 you bring a word today and a devotional, all that kind of stuff. And, and, um, or you speak 00:22:01.520 --> 00:22:09.320 authoritatively based on your knowledge. Um, and I, I thought one that wasn't sustainable and also 00:22:09.320 --> 00:22:13.880 that wasn't appropriate. It's, it just didn't feel appropriate in the, in the moment when there 00:22:13.880 --> 00:22:19.260 is so much fear, I mean, people were losing family members. There's so much loss. People were afraid 00:22:19.260 --> 00:22:26.280 and I was afraid. I was, I was, um, dealing with loss. My loss wasn't personal bereavement of 00:22:26.280 --> 00:22:33.040 somebody, but it was a loss of career and loss of opportunities and things that would not be easily 00:22:33.040 --> 00:22:40.300 remedied by any stretch. And, and so I had to keep on up and, and, and when issues revolving around 00:22:40.300 --> 00:22:45.420 race came up, I'm like, how am I going to show up? And I'm like, I'm tired. I'm like, you don't have 00:22:45.420 --> 00:22:50.660 to be, this is a free service. You don't have to stay, but I have to show up how I feel today. 00:22:50.660 --> 00:22:54.560 And if you don't like it, you know what I mean? You can go, but this is how I'm going to be. 00:22:54.740 --> 00:23:00.180 The irony is that I think the tea time, um, even though I stopped doing tea time at the end, 00:23:00.240 --> 00:23:04.740 I did it for about a year or so. I ran it to the end of the year. That piece stayed. 00:23:06.020 --> 00:23:11.900 That piece stayed in terms of the way ministry is going to happen with us in the things that I lead 00:23:11.900 --> 00:23:18.160 in the ways that I lead have to have that level of tangible vulnerability, have to have that level 00:23:18.160 --> 00:23:24.180 of showing up where I'm a learner too, you're a learner too, but also we don't need to have a big 00:23:24.180 --> 00:23:28.720 production over this. Yeah. We do production quality and all that kind of stuff as and when we can, 00:23:28.840 --> 00:23:33.860 but I mean, as a character, as a person, we show up as human beings. And if we're grieving today, 00:23:33.860 --> 00:23:38.080 we're grieving, if we're happy today, if we're angry today, the gamut of the human condition is 00:23:38.080 --> 00:23:42.320 allowed to be seen. Cause I see that in the Bible. I just don't, sometimes I just don't see that in 00:23:42.320 --> 00:23:50.760 the events that we do. Yeah. Well, there did come that day where no amount of begging from me in the 00:23:50.760 --> 00:23:56.220 comments could keep you doing it every day and you shifted and you've talked a bit about like the, 00:23:56.280 --> 00:24:01.500 the necessity not to be married to the vehicle, but to the, but to the heart of the ministry. And, 00:24:01.500 --> 00:24:06.680 and so the other thing that I've been very, I feel, I count myself very blessed to be a part of 00:24:06.680 --> 00:24:13.000 it is, is the leadership community. The thing that I see about the leadership community is that 00:24:13.000 --> 00:24:19.280 there you are able to do what so many people we've talked to, like, so to the episode that 00:24:19.280 --> 00:24:24.960 released today, as we're recording is Isaac Petit Frayer. And he has this incredible ministry where he 00:24:24.960 --> 00:24:29.080 puts the word of God in front of the people of God. And it is beautiful. And we got to a point in the 00:24:29.080 --> 00:24:32.920 conversation. I said, well, how do you know that, that they are now taking it and carrying it out 00:24:32.920 --> 00:24:36.420 into the world? And he was like, that's the question, isn't it? And so that's something that 00:24:36.420 --> 00:24:42.400 is, is definitely being evaluated by people in online ministry is how do, how do I know? But 00:24:42.400 --> 00:24:47.200 it is also the thing that is happening. It's the same critique that you can say of in-person 00:24:47.200 --> 00:24:50.260 ministry. How do you know that these people are going to go out and do this? 00:24:50.580 --> 00:24:50.940 Absolutely. 00:24:51.220 --> 00:24:56.040 Because that's the end goal. But in the leadership community, the privilege of being a part of that 00:24:56.040 --> 00:25:01.680 is that you get to see that people are taking the discipleship, the equipping that you are 00:25:01.680 --> 00:25:07.060 doing and that you are giving them and they are growing and they are sharing the changes that are 00:25:07.060 --> 00:25:12.440 happening in their lives and in their ministry and in their leadership because of the influence of 00:25:12.440 --> 00:25:19.740 that community. I wanted to mention the vehicle that that is in because it is interesting because 00:25:19.740 --> 00:25:21.840 it's, it's a mighty networks. Yeah. 00:25:22.160 --> 00:25:26.600 Which is cool because there are people who are going to have thoughts and feelings about Facebook 00:25:26.600 --> 00:25:29.600 groups and communities. There's people who have thoughts and feelings about all the different 00:25:29.600 --> 00:25:32.620 things and you're never going to get them to get on there. And so like the mighty networks 00:25:32.620 --> 00:25:35.540 thing allows you to have your own school bus. 00:25:36.160 --> 00:25:40.740 Yeah. Yeah. It felt important to do that. It felt important to have a space, which was, 00:25:40.740 --> 00:25:44.940 and also because I'm, I, you know, I look at Facebook and every sort of thing, I'm like, 00:25:45.060 --> 00:25:47.400 yes. And then there are other things where I'm like, but not that. 00:25:49.040 --> 00:25:54.280 Yes. But in terms of a community that I'm building, I don't, do you remember those days 00:25:54.280 --> 00:25:58.080 where everything just went shut down? I mean, when Facebook and Instagram weren't working and 00:25:58.080 --> 00:26:04.880 everybody lost their life. I'm like, yeah, no, you know, the sky is falling and it may not fall 00:26:04.880 --> 00:26:09.240 again, but still for, if you're trying to cultivate a community, the whole goal of the leadership 00:26:09.240 --> 00:26:14.400 coaching communities to cultivate leaders and for it to be a space, I can't be owned by somebody else 00:26:14.400 --> 00:26:20.260 in that kind of a way. I can't, I need it. I needed it to be hosted in a different, that, that tool did 00:26:20.260 --> 00:26:27.900 not serve it as fully as I needed it to. And, and I, I wanted to create a community whereby there was 00:26:27.900 --> 00:26:33.440 that ongoing interaction where people, where there was room for people to come up and park as it were, 00:26:33.520 --> 00:26:39.000 have their seat on that bus and travel together. And I needed, I needed a vehicle that would serve 00:26:39.000 --> 00:26:42.760 that goal. You know, with all of these things in terms of social media ministry, it's like what 00:26:42.760 --> 00:26:47.420 vehicle is available that serves that goal? The reason why I'm not really engaged on Pinterest, 00:26:47.580 --> 00:26:51.480 other than the fact it's my fantasy land, is the fact that it doesn't serve the goal. 00:26:52.120 --> 00:26:56.840 It's not serving the leadership that I'm doing. You know, probably the reason why Twitter is, 00:26:57.180 --> 00:27:00.720 well, I just think it's a bit of a, a bit of a mad place. And it's not that it's not wonderful. 00:27:00.800 --> 00:27:04.120 And it's not that it doesn't work, but for what I'm trying to build, it doesn't serve it as well 00:27:04.120 --> 00:27:09.000 in this moment. There are times it will again, I just have to, you know, I'm one human being with 00:27:09.000 --> 00:27:13.720 priorities. And so I just have to let it serve. It kind of, it'll come back up again in a year or so, 00:27:13.740 --> 00:27:18.020 and then it'll go back down. But I think the idea of building this leadership coaching community was, 00:27:18.020 --> 00:27:23.100 I know, cause I know, cause I know that women leaders are isolated. I know that they're isolated 00:27:23.100 --> 00:27:27.560 and I know that it's problematic. I know that their experiences are problematic. I know that 00:27:27.560 --> 00:27:33.700 the pathways for their leadership and progress are problematic or non-existent. And so, and I have 00:27:33.700 --> 00:27:37.940 railed for years in the environments I was in saying, we've got to do something for the women. 00:27:38.060 --> 00:27:41.700 And people would either ignore it or they'd hypothesize saying, well, it'd be wonderful if 00:27:41.700 --> 00:27:44.700 men and women could just learn together. And I'm like, if that was going to happen, 00:27:44.700 --> 00:27:47.980 it'd happen by now. And also you're not acknowledging the inequities 00:27:47.980 --> 00:27:53.540 that have made that impossible from time. And so it was a way to say, if developing women 00:27:53.540 --> 00:27:58.580 leaders in a specific way, isn't welcome at this table, how will I build my own? How will I build 00:27:58.580 --> 00:28:03.840 a table at the way you get to lay it? And I'm not even saying that those people should have, I mean, 00:28:03.860 --> 00:28:08.260 I, I think I'm saying I'm taking on the responsibility for what I feel called to. 00:28:08.440 --> 00:28:15.040 And, um, and, um, and so, and I've done different kinds of coaching women leaders via zoom for years. 00:28:15.040 --> 00:28:19.120 I want to say seven, eight years. I've been on zoom doing small groups and all that kind of stuff 00:28:19.120 --> 00:28:24.580 with leaders because the, the issues for women leaders is the lack of access. Well, the digital 00:28:24.580 --> 00:28:27.780 world opens up a whole world of access. And so that's how it began. 00:28:28.000 --> 00:28:33.620 Well, it's been, it has been really helpful to me to be a part of that community and to benefit from 00:28:33.620 --> 00:28:38.440 the material that you put up there and the conversations that we're able to have and 00:28:38.440 --> 00:28:44.900 watching the other leaders that are a part of it, watching them make moves and, and grow and develop 00:28:44.900 --> 00:28:51.780 and process their own situations. So you have the leadership platform and you have your Instagram 00:28:51.780 --> 00:28:56.060 stuff, which your Instagram page in itself is a whole, like, we could talk about that for, 00:28:56.060 --> 00:29:00.560 you know, we could just keep talking about all the places you can find Joe everywhere and 00:29:00.560 --> 00:29:05.080 everywhere you go. It's good. The thing that I want to make sure that we talk about that makes 00:29:05.080 --> 00:29:11.080 this conversation, Hector and I were talking about how timely it is on Monday, I posted, I tweeted 00:29:11.080 --> 00:29:19.640 that the same critique people give online ministry or online church, you can use those same critiques 00:29:19.640 --> 00:29:26.000 for in-person ministry. The big pushback when I was trying to have the conversation with 00:29:26.000 --> 00:29:30.160 people in the comments that I was running into is they would say, well, it's not, it's not embodied, 00:29:30.340 --> 00:29:37.700 that embodied problem. Unless you are physically next to a person, then you are not in community, 00:29:37.700 --> 00:29:45.440 you are not truly experiencing the spirit. And those things just by themselves are not what the Bible 00:29:45.440 --> 00:29:49.440 says. Yeah. Cause it's trash. It's privilege. And I, and don't get me wrong. I love that privilege. But what if you can't afford to be there? Right. Yeah. What if you can like, really, what if you can't afford to be there? Because you are taking care of a parent, you are taking care of kids. If what does it mean then? Yeah. The money comes in. I mean, how's this going to work friends? And it's not that I don't do. I love being in an embodied experience. Yeah. And it's not that I don't do. I love being in an embodied experience. Yeah. And it's not that I don't do. I love being in an embodied experience. 00:29:49.440 --> 00:30:19.420 Yes. It's privilege. And don't get me wrong. I love that privilege. But what if you can't afford to be there? Right. Yeah. What if you can like, really, what if you can't afford to be there? Because you are taking care of a parent, you are taking care of kids. If what does it mean then? Yeah. The money comes in. I mean, how's this going to work friends? And it's not that I don't do. I love being in an embodied experience. Yes, I do. Would that be my dream come true every time? Is it possible? 00:30:19.420 --> 00:30:49.400 For everybody all the time. No, it ain't. It just isn't. And so we can hypothesize about what all these things do and mean. Or we can acknowledge the reality of how people actually live. Yeah. And have to live. I was thinking of one of my really good friends who I have built a relationship with over six, seven years. And I've met her once. I've actually met her once. But it was through Twitter. It was through and then emails. 00:30:49.400 --> 00:31:02.360 And then Marco Polo. And it's how he's staying most of our contact. You know, the reason why I've been able to maintain relationships with my college friends who are thousands of miles away is because of social media, is because of the digital world. 00:31:03.080 --> 00:31:09.540 Now, are they stronger because they were embodied first? Probably, yeah. But they are not the only close friends I have. 00:31:10.740 --> 00:31:21.360 And I think you're right. The critique you can have in person is the case. I think the critique works both in every context. I think it's just a good general critique. 00:31:21.640 --> 00:31:31.540 And I think if we can acknowledge these things serve different purposes. Yeah. And say, no, it may not do all of those things. But if it does 75% of them, isn't it still worth it? 00:31:32.200 --> 00:31:43.280 Yeah. If it does, if it gets you, if it moves the needle on someone's life and on someone's loneliness and someone's empowerment and their leadership, isn't it worth it? Or are we just going to stand there and say, well, the ideal is this? 00:31:43.640 --> 00:32:03.960 Yeah. And even the centurion came to Jesus and is like, I need you to heal my guy. He's back at home. And Jesus is like, do you want me to go to him? And the centurion says, no, no, you don't need to go to him. You just need to say the word. I believe, like I tell people to do stuff and they do it. And I believe that you can tell him to be better and he will be better. 00:32:04.200 --> 00:32:25.680 And so Jesus asked, do you want me to go be in the physical space with this guy for this? And, and the centurion said, that doesn't have to happen for healing. And Jesus said, that's the kind of faith you need to have, you know, like if Jesus can say, this guy recognizes that I don't have to be in the same physical space for me to be in charge. 00:32:25.880 --> 00:32:46.460 Like, I want to be that kind of person. I mean, Mary and Martha came and said, if you were here, this wouldn't have happened. But Jesus was still in control, even though Lazarus died. And what played out was for God's glory and their good, you know, so that the people could see Jesus as he is. 00:32:46.460 --> 00:32:59.300 It's funny, isn't it? That it is very easy for us. And, and I, and I, and I, one level, I get it. I get it that our desire is for people to have an experience because those things have been meaningful for us. 00:32:59.480 --> 00:33:05.960 You know what I mean? To have this physical connection when you can see, and, and we've been denied that for so long and it's been so painful. 00:33:06.260 --> 00:33:21.300 And because we have seen the underbelly of social media in, in various ways we have, and of digital ministry in various ways, we have seen the underbelly, but we also, but the other thing is, what are we going to then say that the idea is if we build it, they will come. 00:33:21.740 --> 00:33:27.840 Do you know what I mean? If we have the building, the physical space, they will come because that isn't happening. I don't know if we've not been paying attention, but that isn't happening. 00:33:28.060 --> 00:33:43.380 And it hasn't, it hasn't stopped people being systemically racist. It hasn't got people being bigoted. It hasn't, there's a lot it hasn't done. And that's not to, I'm not saying therefore get rid of it all at all. I'm, I'm more than up for it. I'm just saying, let's do it all then. 00:33:43.960 --> 00:33:57.040 Because if, if we believe God is at work in the world, let's find where he is. Jesus said he only did what he saw the father doing. What's the father doing in social media? What's the father doing in digital platforms? What's the father doing? 00:33:57.540 --> 00:34:09.580 I know what we prefer. I know what we want. And I'm, and I'm not saying, and I'm not ignoring that the father is doing something in our physical spaces, but what is the father doing amongst those who, who will not walk into a building? 00:34:09.580 --> 00:34:26.060 Because the last time they did, they were judged and abused. What is the father doing there? How will the father reach someone who will, who, who doesn't feel safe about, who just doesn't feel safe or for whom it's dangerous, dangerous because they are of another religion or another space. 00:34:26.060 --> 00:34:38.940 It's dangerous for them to enter a building. What's the father doing there? I think we just need a larger creative imagination. And when we ignore the beauty and the potential of a, of this complex space, our vision is too small. 00:34:39.440 --> 00:34:39.620 Yep. 00:34:40.020 --> 00:34:40.340 Yes. 00:34:40.500 --> 00:34:41.280 Our vision is too small. 00:34:41.800 --> 00:34:48.740 It's not a problem with the platform. If you can't imagine it, it's not a limitation of the platform. If you can't imagine, it might be a limitation of your imagination. 00:34:48.920 --> 00:35:05.380 Yeah. And, and, and, and in that, of course, there's nuance, of course, there's nuance to contextualize about what is, but, but then let's do the contextualization. Let's explore the nuance. Let's recognize, say, okay, Twitter can do this much, but for the, this much it can do, we are going to fill it with all that we can. 00:35:05.640 --> 00:35:15.420 Knowing that it has so much it can do. Pinterest can do this much. I don't know what Pinterest can do because I'm not that kind of person, but, but for those who are all about it, they'll say, but this is what, this is what's possible. 00:35:15.780 --> 00:35:26.540 Others will say, Facebook can do this. Instagram can do this. Yeah, but there's a lot that it can't, but for what it can, I'm going to give a percentage of my time, energy, finances, whatever, to doing what it can. 00:35:26.820 --> 00:35:27.020 Yeah. 00:35:27.320 --> 00:35:36.640 And letting it, and, and this is where different generations are living, inhabiting, all that kind of stuff. I'm not going to turn the light off and walk away and say, you need to come to a building. 00:35:37.220 --> 00:35:37.540 Yeah. 00:35:37.540 --> 00:35:50.940 I was going to say, I think, you know, even in, in the conversation, like we have to, we have to be willing to ask ourselves. And I think this is something that I've noticed is, are we arguing ideals? 00:35:51.280 --> 00:35:58.160 Like, are we arguing that this is the way I think it should be yet? It's not a current reality in my life. 00:35:58.160 --> 00:36:11.340 And I think that for me has been a big thing of like, you can sit until you're blue in the face and argue with me all day about why in-person ministry is the, the option. 00:36:12.520 --> 00:36:26.480 But to me, if, if I can begin to point out, and I, I, I, I, I understand that we're not perfect. We're not going to do this perfectly, but if I can begin to, to point out the consistency of how it's not working, 00:36:26.880 --> 00:36:36.580 then we have a real problem because now you're arguing for something that like is not a reality in your life, in your leadership, in your community. 00:36:36.580 --> 00:36:48.900 And so all we are doing is, is having, we're wasting breath and time and energy so that we can talk about ideals and none of the work is being done. 00:36:49.220 --> 00:36:49.700 Yeah. 00:36:49.700 --> 00:37:06.280 You know? And so I, I think part of, that's a huge part of where I come from is, look, I will argue and I love in-person church. I am a hugger. I am a, like, let's talk around a campfire. Like, let's hang out. Let's go find a new restaurant. I am for that. 00:37:07.000 --> 00:37:13.320 But if we're not doing those things, do not tell me that like the in-person relationships are the most important. 00:37:14.120 --> 00:37:14.520 Yeah. 00:37:14.600 --> 00:37:26.640 If showing up to a building between an hour and an hour and a half on a Sunday morning is more important, like we can argue that. But in person, like we have to play the arguments out. We have to play the positions out. 00:37:27.140 --> 00:37:39.780 That's fascinating what you said about the hour and a half as well, because when we think about it, so basically what we're saying is, if we limit it to that view, if we limit it to that, that the in-person is the ultimate way, then what are we doing with the rest? 00:37:39.880 --> 00:37:42.700 What is humanity doing with the rest of the hours? 00:37:42.860 --> 00:37:43.720 They're at work. 00:37:44.040 --> 00:37:44.660 Are we there? 00:37:45.100 --> 00:37:46.740 Are we inhabiting there in person? 00:37:47.060 --> 00:37:48.760 Or are we just saying church building in person? 00:37:49.220 --> 00:37:49.520 Do you know what I mean? 00:37:49.560 --> 00:37:53.460 Because sometimes we say in person, but actually what we mean is the worship experience. 00:37:53.800 --> 00:37:54.020 Yes. 00:37:54.400 --> 00:37:56.900 And so it begins to unpack there. 00:37:57.220 --> 00:38:03.060 But we know, we may not want to admit it, but we know that people are spending way more than an hour and a half online. 00:38:03.300 --> 00:38:03.680 Yes. 00:38:03.820 --> 00:38:04.020 Oh. 00:38:04.300 --> 00:38:05.740 In a day. 00:38:06.140 --> 00:38:07.280 In a half a day. 00:38:08.300 --> 00:38:21.000 And so again, if we don't missionally, missionally, we have to consider, you know, what is shaping our minds, our expectations, our emotions, all these things. 00:38:21.000 --> 00:38:25.640 So whether we like it or not, the digital space is having a huge impact. 00:38:27.120 --> 00:38:28.100 Huge impact. 00:38:28.460 --> 00:38:33.820 Ones that we fully don't know the consequences of yet and ones that we can already tell because everybody's given things up for Lent. 00:38:34.200 --> 00:38:34.580 Do you know what I mean? 00:38:36.580 --> 00:38:37.340 It's there. 00:38:37.840 --> 00:38:43.540 And the answer to that isn't just to make, isn't just to make the one and a half hours more compelling. 00:38:44.280 --> 00:38:48.620 Make the music better, the presentation better, this better, more dynamic. 00:38:48.620 --> 00:38:52.680 And why should God, the King of Kings, the God of the universe be limited? 00:38:53.140 --> 00:38:55.880 You know, the temple, the temple curtain's been torn down. 00:38:56.400 --> 00:38:58.300 Let God do his thing everywhere. 00:38:59.020 --> 00:39:04.760 And just be a willing participant in joining him in what he's doing in the world. 00:39:05.600 --> 00:39:16.480 And on one level, we're used to that if that means going to another country in some spaces or going to places where we physically assume that God won't be because there are terrible people there and all of that kind of stuff. 00:39:16.480 --> 00:39:31.440 But we maybe need to allow him to show us what it means to see where the spirit of God can flow and move and transform and heal and rebuild relationships and all of these things through these very human tools. 00:39:32.020 --> 00:39:44.300 The other piece of pushback that people kept bringing to me on that tweet is that this is the definition of online church. 00:39:44.700 --> 00:39:56.860 And it boiled down to if it wasn't just one guy sitting alone with all of his senses knocked out, watching a YouTube video and not interacting at all with anybody. 00:39:57.020 --> 00:39:59.560 That is what they were calling online church. 00:39:59.560 --> 00:40:01.380 And that's not what we are calling online church. 00:40:01.540 --> 00:40:03.980 That's not what online ministry is. 00:40:04.380 --> 00:40:08.840 And if you would say, well, you know, they would say, well, you have to have people gathered with you. 00:40:08.880 --> 00:40:18.700 And I would say, well, there are people who are watching online services in their home with their roommate, with their neighbor, with their family. 00:40:19.200 --> 00:40:23.760 Is that not a gathered body of believers? 00:40:24.000 --> 00:40:28.680 Do those gathered bodies of believers not count because they're not at this other location? 00:40:29.280 --> 00:40:35.200 Not to even get into that we're saying online church and you're saying online worship service. 00:40:35.260 --> 00:40:37.820 You're only looking at that hour, hour and a half. 00:40:37.820 --> 00:40:51.920 But it was as soon as you included any sort of mention that there might be bodies in the room or that those bodies might be involved, it was like, now you're not talking about online ministry or online church anymore. 00:40:52.080 --> 00:40:55.220 You are talking about a house church or you are talking about. 00:40:55.660 --> 00:40:57.360 And so they had to reframe it and take it out. 00:40:57.360 --> 00:41:04.200 So the critique comes that if there is any physicality involved with online church, it is no longer online church. 00:41:04.300 --> 00:41:10.340 This is one of the critiques, which makes no sense because in in-person church, you use a microphone. 00:41:11.220 --> 00:41:12.860 You know, you probably have slides maybe. 00:41:13.440 --> 00:41:20.860 Like we might be live streaming, but we don't say because there are technological or digital means being used, this is no longer an in-person service. 00:41:20.860 --> 00:41:22.240 This is now a digital service. 00:41:22.740 --> 00:41:30.380 And so one of the things that, like, I hope people understand is that you can have in-person aspects to online ministry. 00:41:31.040 --> 00:41:31.440 Yeah. 00:41:31.980 --> 00:41:32.460 Yeah. 00:41:32.720 --> 00:41:45.460 I mean, when you watch TV with your family or your friends and you're all geared to watching whatever show of the day is really popular, are you, is that not building any kind of community? 00:41:46.740 --> 00:41:51.720 And, yeah, I do wonder whether we are getting slightly pedantic. 00:41:51.720 --> 00:41:52.300 Do you know what I mean? 00:41:52.380 --> 00:42:02.580 I'm just like, there are salty sites which stream sermons in and on a regular basis where, you know, there are experiences where everybody's looking forward. 00:42:02.920 --> 00:42:10.740 And then when the, when everything, and they are observing the musicians at the top, at the, on the stage, and they may sing, they may not. 00:42:10.800 --> 00:42:13.900 They give them a round of applause at the end and then they up and leave. 00:42:14.160 --> 00:42:15.400 Is that, is that a community? 00:42:15.920 --> 00:42:17.800 Are we saying that's the community experience? 00:42:18.260 --> 00:42:18.440 Yeah. 00:42:18.760 --> 00:42:26.120 I just find it fascinating in terms of getting, I wonder if we get to, you know, we've had a lot of, we've had a lot of pressure. 00:42:26.220 --> 00:42:28.700 Maybe that's why we're getting obsessed with definitions. 00:42:29.280 --> 00:42:30.240 Yeah, no, absolutely. 00:42:30.240 --> 00:42:41.860 I was going to say, I can't remember if it was to your tweets there, but someone did say that that same point of like, you know, people come in person, but they show up halfway through the song. 00:42:42.220 --> 00:42:46.780 And then they leave as soon as the band gets on stage. 00:42:47.420 --> 00:42:54.480 And so what community happened because they were there to yes, hear the word, but that's, that's not community. 00:42:55.180 --> 00:42:55.660 Yes. 00:42:55.660 --> 00:42:58.680 They were here to sing the songs, but that's not community. 00:42:58.860 --> 00:43:03.080 They participated in this thing, but that's not community. 00:43:03.080 --> 00:43:14.040 Like there is something about the, the knowing and being known piece that I feel like is, is part of the conversation of it's not just about showing up the same. 00:43:14.180 --> 00:43:16.240 And it goes all the way back to the tea time, right? 00:43:16.240 --> 00:43:17.080 It's not just about that. 00:43:17.100 --> 00:43:20.400 You got, you showed up, but like, are you here? 00:43:20.460 --> 00:43:21.520 Are you participating? 00:43:21.640 --> 00:43:22.540 Are you engaged? 00:43:22.620 --> 00:43:23.760 Are you heard? 00:43:24.220 --> 00:43:25.280 Are you seen? 00:43:25.360 --> 00:43:26.440 Are you acknowledged? 00:43:26.760 --> 00:43:33.300 Like, does this change the way that you and I walk out of this gathering, this experience? 00:43:34.480 --> 00:43:49.320 And if, if it doesn't, and we aren't arguing about whether or not in person online is more of a community, we're arguing whether or not we had bodies in the thing that we put on. 00:43:50.040 --> 00:43:50.220 Yeah. 00:43:50.460 --> 00:43:50.980 Yeah. 00:43:51.100 --> 00:43:51.540 That's good. 00:43:51.680 --> 00:43:52.420 That's really good. 00:43:53.220 --> 00:43:53.520 Yeah. 00:43:53.820 --> 00:43:54.440 It's really good. 00:43:55.120 --> 00:44:00.700 And I think some of it, we may not see, you know, like the fruit of something, the impact of something. 00:44:00.820 --> 00:44:01.600 It takes time. 00:44:02.140 --> 00:44:02.240 Yeah. 00:44:02.700 --> 00:44:03.560 It takes time. 00:44:03.660 --> 00:44:09.320 We might, you know, five years from now, what we say, we might say these things serve just to hold us together for a while. 00:44:09.480 --> 00:44:13.300 These things that gave us inroads into conversations we wouldn't have otherwise had. 00:44:13.740 --> 00:44:21.300 But, and as you were describing all of those things, Hector, and saying, you know, what's happening in the room, I just thought, and how many people are on their phones in the service anyway? 00:44:21.740 --> 00:44:22.140 Mm-hmm. 00:44:22.140 --> 00:44:23.000 You know what I mean? 00:44:23.280 --> 00:44:29.240 I mean, how many of us just got to check something? 00:44:29.620 --> 00:44:33.320 And then before you know it, you've scrolled and you're like, I was checking something and now I'm here. 00:44:33.700 --> 00:44:34.920 Now I'm somewhere else. 00:44:35.400 --> 00:44:39.440 But, and I, and are we saying these things to make us feel better? 00:44:39.880 --> 00:44:42.800 Maybe we feel like something's happening if somebody's in the room. 00:44:43.060 --> 00:44:48.020 We feel like our church is, has certain numbers. 00:44:48.020 --> 00:44:58.500 And I cannot imagine the pressure leaders are under, leaders of churches are under, having to navigate half of their community physically coming back and the other half staying online. 00:44:58.860 --> 00:45:05.060 And it's forcing these kind of, this thinking that they didn't, no one trained for this, no one trained for a global pandemic. 00:45:05.700 --> 00:45:10.160 Do I can understand why people would say, no, this guy, I know how to take care of you this way. 00:45:10.500 --> 00:45:11.760 I know how to serve you this way. 00:45:11.820 --> 00:45:12.840 I know how to bless you this way. 00:45:12.880 --> 00:45:14.360 I know how to be there for your family this way. 00:45:14.660 --> 00:45:16.060 This thing, I don't know how to do. 00:45:16.960 --> 00:45:18.580 I don't know how to do well. 00:45:18.680 --> 00:45:19.020 I don't know. 00:45:19.040 --> 00:45:20.380 I don't know if you're doing right. 00:45:20.460 --> 00:45:23.380 I don't know if this is any more meaningful than it was before. 00:45:24.040 --> 00:45:24.880 I don't know. 00:45:25.040 --> 00:45:28.940 And, and I don't know if I have the time, energy and resources. 00:45:28.940 --> 00:45:31.400 I just have the expectation that this thing has got to grow. 00:45:31.520 --> 00:45:33.020 And I don't even know what growth looks like. 00:45:33.060 --> 00:45:35.160 All the metrics just got blown up, everybody. 00:45:35.860 --> 00:45:41.860 And if I could understand why there would be the pushback on this being as valid. 00:45:42.280 --> 00:45:47.300 I just want to say too, that Sarah and I are church leaders. 00:45:47.520 --> 00:45:48.840 We are on church staff. 00:45:49.040 --> 00:45:53.800 And so when we talk about, you know, we, we fall on the side of the online industry. 00:45:53.980 --> 00:45:54.620 We're pursuing it. 00:45:54.640 --> 00:45:55.400 We're exploring it. 00:45:55.720 --> 00:45:55.900 Yeah. 00:45:56.440 --> 00:46:03.340 We don't speak from a place of, you know, outside of church leadership, pointing at church 00:46:03.340 --> 00:46:05.020 leadership, saying you're doing it wrong. 00:46:05.140 --> 00:46:10.560 We point out from within saying there is a new place to go and lead. 00:46:10.560 --> 00:46:16.880 And if we're going to do the things that we say we want to do as church leadership, whether 00:46:16.880 --> 00:46:21.000 that's specific to our church context or the church in general, if we're going to go and 00:46:21.000 --> 00:46:28.020 make disciples of all nations, all gathered peoples, online is a gathered people. 00:46:28.240 --> 00:46:32.000 And there is a multitude of nations on the online world. 00:46:32.000 --> 00:46:40.860 And so we're speaking from a place of, we want to live in the fullness of what we are claiming 00:46:40.860 --> 00:46:42.480 we want to be about. 00:46:42.760 --> 00:46:48.260 And it's not forsaking the things that we have been about, but it is saying if they will grow 00:46:48.260 --> 00:46:53.180 and if they will become truer expressions of what we believe, then we have to at least 00:46:53.320 --> 00:46:57.860 consider, seriously consider what's on the other side of that door. 00:46:58.540 --> 00:46:59.040 That's so good. 00:46:59.640 --> 00:47:08.760 I do want to hear a little bit about what you have coming up, Joe, because I believe that 00:47:08.760 --> 00:47:16.840 you can add in-person stuff to online ministry and it is just amplifying and deepening the 00:47:16.840 --> 00:47:18.500 impact of what you're doing. 00:47:18.500 --> 00:47:22.740 It's not, it's not tearing it down and you're like, well, that can no longer be a ministry 00:47:22.740 --> 00:47:23.600 that happens online. 00:47:23.600 --> 00:47:26.800 Like my intention, and this is a good plan. 00:47:27.120 --> 00:47:31.500 This is a, this is a, around these parts, people would say, Lord willing and the crick 00:47:31.500 --> 00:47:32.260 don't rise. 00:47:32.260 --> 00:47:38.600 Um, my plan in a couple months is to be in the same room with Hector. 00:47:38.940 --> 00:47:46.540 Like let's, let's hope that everything pans out and that the, the airplane can get across 00:47:46.540 --> 00:47:48.200 the giant United States. 00:47:48.200 --> 00:47:51.140 It's a little, it makes me a little anxious to think about being in a plane for that long 00:47:51.140 --> 00:47:51.760 going that far. 00:47:51.760 --> 00:47:57.020 So, but it's a good plan and I plan to be in the same room with him and I plan after that 00:47:57.020 --> 00:48:02.840 to still be like, I'm a online partner with this person, even though we've met in person. 00:48:03.280 --> 00:48:08.580 Um, but I do think that getting the opportunity to meet him and be in the same space and have 00:48:08.580 --> 00:48:13.220 conversations with him is just going to amplify and deepen what we're doing. 00:48:13.220 --> 00:48:17.500 And, and I know that there are people who have online communities right now who are looking 00:48:17.500 --> 00:48:24.240 at like, is there not a way that I can get in the same room with these people and, and 00:48:24.240 --> 00:48:26.520 pursue the conversations that we've been having. 00:48:26.520 --> 00:48:30.200 And I know there are people who feel like Twitter is their church. 00:48:30.200 --> 00:48:34.780 The people that they are doing life with those people and they want to get in the same space 00:48:34.780 --> 00:48:36.880 and have communion and worship together. 00:48:36.880 --> 00:48:40.920 And it might not be something that they can do all the time, but the, the concept that 00:48:40.920 --> 00:48:46.240 this is something that could happen that would push them deeper into community, into the 00:48:46.240 --> 00:48:50.600 conversation, pursue the passions and the growth that they've been growing together already. 00:48:51.120 --> 00:48:53.780 But that's something that is a desire on people's hearts. 00:48:53.780 --> 00:48:56.560 And I know that that's something that you have coming up. 00:48:57.080 --> 00:48:57.480 Yes. 00:48:57.840 --> 00:48:58.260 Yes. 00:48:58.440 --> 00:49:02.760 And I started experimenting with this before the pandemic in terms of working out in this 00:49:02.760 --> 00:49:06.580 chapter of my life, I really feel committed to investing in women leaders, whether those 00:49:06.580 --> 00:49:10.500 women are all fueled by their faith or believers, but they might be leading in business. 00:49:10.500 --> 00:49:11.680 They might be in law enforcement. 00:49:11.680 --> 00:49:16.280 They might be in ministry in some way, just because the opportunities for their leadership 00:49:16.280 --> 00:49:18.100 development have been limited over the years. 00:49:18.100 --> 00:49:23.020 And I wanted to create a space where women could, women leaders could come and be unapologetically 00:49:23.020 --> 00:49:23.520 themselves. 00:49:24.280 --> 00:49:27.380 And so I started this thing called the Acer Collective a while back. 00:49:27.480 --> 00:49:30.980 I tried it a few times and then the pandemic kind of came and shut everything down. 00:49:31.060 --> 00:49:35.620 And then the coaching platform became a version of, of the Acer Collective. 00:49:35.620 --> 00:49:41.500 And so in some ways I feel like I'm coming out of this era with rather than either or, but 00:49:41.500 --> 00:49:42.060 with both. 00:49:42.380 --> 00:49:46.740 And so the Acer Collective is, it gathers about 70, 70 women leaders, 70 to 80. 00:49:46.980 --> 00:49:51.580 It's intentionally small so that we can build relationships so that we can bring small groups so 00:49:51.580 --> 00:49:56.920 that we can have chance to network all of these things that we don't, we've in some ways been 00:49:56.920 --> 00:50:00.320 denied the opportunity to do for a while so that we can catalyze our leadership. 00:50:00.480 --> 00:50:01.060 That's the goal. 00:50:01.140 --> 00:50:06.160 The goal is how can we have a space where they can look at their leadership calling, get the 00:50:06.160 --> 00:50:10.340 tools that they need, the tools that are required, and then go back and make their contribution 00:50:10.340 --> 00:50:13.120 in whatever space they are working in. 00:50:13.600 --> 00:50:17.700 And so the next ones we're doing are in the spring and they'll be in California on the 00:50:17.700 --> 00:50:18.100 West Coast. 00:50:18.840 --> 00:50:21.060 Up until this point, we've mainly done them in Minneapolis. 00:50:21.260 --> 00:50:23.480 We did one in Alaska as well, because that is far away. 00:50:23.480 --> 00:50:28.940 But in spring, in Southern California, in April, the 21st through the 23rd, in Sacramento, 00:50:29.360 --> 00:50:30.820 May the 9th through the 11th. 00:50:30.860 --> 00:50:36.320 Just a chance for women who are leaders to have a space and to not live the lonely task of 00:50:36.320 --> 00:50:37.620 leadership that it's so often been. 00:50:39.460 --> 00:50:39.940 Yeah. 00:50:40.300 --> 00:50:44.060 You know, so I, one, that sounds amazing. 00:50:44.500 --> 00:50:49.460 And I actually have a friend who was on staff with me and is now running her own nonprofit and 00:50:49.460 --> 00:50:50.400 she's considering it. 00:50:50.460 --> 00:50:51.760 And I just, I'm excited. 00:50:51.880 --> 00:50:53.000 I hope that she goes. 00:50:53.220 --> 00:50:58.420 I hope that she, if that's still open, but because a few things, I cannot tell you how 00:50:58.420 --> 00:51:04.100 many times I've been like, do we understand who we have on our team? 00:51:04.680 --> 00:51:13.160 This woman who is leading and creating and breaking barriers in this neighborhood, do we understand? 00:51:14.220 --> 00:51:21.780 And there was something that I picked up from, I watched the 30 minute Instagram TV post of 00:51:21.780 --> 00:51:25.300 like, what, what will you invest? 00:51:25.720 --> 00:51:29.880 You know, like, what will you invest in the people around you or in your own leadership? 00:51:30.360 --> 00:51:39.880 And I think the, what I hear and what I love about this is that it is a come to a room and 00:51:39.880 --> 00:51:45.160 not only are you going to be able to hear, but you're going to be able to then also in real 00:51:45.160 --> 00:51:48.660 time respond and contribute. 00:51:49.100 --> 00:51:54.300 And it's going to change, not just how you walk away, but the people around you, because 00:51:54.300 --> 00:52:01.000 you were there and you made an impact and, and to just realize and recognize it. 00:52:01.100 --> 00:52:05.580 And obviously you have of like the potential that is there. 00:52:06.320 --> 00:52:13.900 And then when you gather that many women at that caliber and just say it's, it's there and 00:52:13.900 --> 00:52:22.160 go and freely live in that and, and continue to impact one another to continue is I think 00:52:22.160 --> 00:52:29.740 not only, uh, an honorable thing, but, but just powerful, effective and needed in this 00:52:29.740 --> 00:52:30.080 time. 00:52:31.140 --> 00:52:31.840 Thank you. 00:52:32.100 --> 00:52:32.500 Thank you. 00:52:33.160 --> 00:52:33.600 Yeah. 00:52:33.620 --> 00:52:35.280 I love, I love the chance. 00:52:35.520 --> 00:52:41.000 Um, again, it's, it's a, it's a gift to be able to do it when we, when you can, but 00:52:41.000 --> 00:52:45.800 to, I, I, I've been asked from time to time, you know, why don't you have men and women 00:52:45.800 --> 00:52:46.360 working together? 00:52:46.400 --> 00:52:47.580 And I said, it's not, I don't believe in it. 00:52:47.600 --> 00:52:51.120 I just haven't, it's, I know that we didn't start in equal spaces. 00:52:51.900 --> 00:52:56.300 And so women have often had to edit themselves or felt the need to, even in places where they 00:52:56.300 --> 00:53:00.640 were more than welcome, the, the, the stories that began long before they were in that 00:53:00.640 --> 00:53:00.960 room. 00:53:00.960 --> 00:53:05.500 And so there is something really powerful with looking around being in a space with leaders. 00:53:06.020 --> 00:53:08.000 And not having to apologize for who you are. 00:53:08.640 --> 00:53:10.420 I mean, that's true digitally or in person. 00:53:10.540 --> 00:53:14.120 There's something very powerful being in a community of other leaders and not having 00:53:14.120 --> 00:53:18.260 to shrink yourself and not having to hide yourself in some way. 00:53:18.580 --> 00:53:21.320 And I love that you said there about, do you know, do we know who we have in the room? 00:53:21.400 --> 00:53:23.980 I think sometimes those leaders don't know who they haven't, do you know what I mean? 00:53:24.060 --> 00:53:25.520 Because it's not been affirmed. 00:53:25.580 --> 00:53:26.420 It's not been articulated. 00:53:26.560 --> 00:53:28.120 It's not been celebrated. 00:53:28.120 --> 00:53:33.340 And I want to, I want to gather a group of leaders who have been tolerated and let them 00:53:33.340 --> 00:53:38.160 realize that they are celebrated and let them go from the place, knowing that they are set 00:53:38.160 --> 00:53:40.980 that their gifts, their contribution so that they can go. 00:53:41.120 --> 00:53:46.680 And you know, the, it's, it's, it's a catalyzing time that I get them there to catalyze them 00:53:46.680 --> 00:53:51.860 so that, and so people have gone away with friends that they've made and, and who are, 00:53:51.940 --> 00:53:52.900 and they're from all around the country. 00:53:52.900 --> 00:53:57.300 So then from that point on, they'll be in touch with one another digitally, but they have friends 00:53:57.300 --> 00:53:59.300 who are now a brain trust for them. 00:53:59.340 --> 00:54:01.840 They've gone back and been able to negotiate for pay rises. 00:54:01.840 --> 00:54:06.360 They have gone into new jobs and new positions that they wouldn't have done because when you 00:54:06.360 --> 00:54:09.260 always feel like you're tolerable, you don't feel you have much to offer. 00:54:09.260 --> 00:54:13.500 When you feel like you are just above contempt, you're just above acceptance. 00:54:13.820 --> 00:54:18.160 You, you have so much to prove, but imagine if your leadership came from a place of having 00:54:18.160 --> 00:54:20.280 nothing to prove and nothing to defend. 00:54:20.420 --> 00:54:24.340 You wouldn't spend all your emotional energy, just apologizing for existing. 00:54:24.760 --> 00:54:28.800 You would spend your emotional energy making the contribution you were designed to make. 00:54:29.220 --> 00:54:30.620 And that's what this is for. 00:54:31.340 --> 00:54:31.780 Wow. 00:54:32.540 --> 00:54:38.540 Yeah, I know we've got men and women listening and we have men who are in positions of leadership 00:54:38.540 --> 00:54:39.060 listening. 00:54:39.300 --> 00:54:43.300 And I, and I would hope not just that women would listen to this and that they would hear 00:54:43.300 --> 00:54:46.200 this is something that I should invest in for myself. 00:54:46.200 --> 00:54:47.660 This is something that's valuable. 00:54:47.660 --> 00:54:53.120 I saw the, I watched the promo yesterday and I just thought about how in the recent weeks 00:54:53.120 --> 00:54:56.260 she has just made big shifts and big growth. 00:54:56.320 --> 00:55:00.320 And I think about her involvement in the online community and also that she had the benefit 00:55:00.320 --> 00:55:06.420 of having that deeper time at the, at the last one and seeing how it has changed her and 00:55:06.420 --> 00:55:06.900 shaped her. 00:55:06.900 --> 00:55:14.600 So it is, it's real that this helps women grow and step out and build themselves up. 00:55:14.700 --> 00:55:17.320 And so I would encourage a woman to go and invest that way. 00:55:17.360 --> 00:55:22.400 But I would also hope that if there, if, if there are men listening to this and they think, 00:55:22.480 --> 00:55:29.640 you know, who are the women in my church, in my area, in my life who need equipped, who need 00:55:29.640 --> 00:55:32.580 to know, like I have told them, I believe in them. 00:55:32.580 --> 00:55:34.620 Well, can I put my money where my mouth is? 00:55:34.720 --> 00:55:36.060 Can I get them to this? 00:55:36.120 --> 00:55:38.840 And can I get to support them tangibly? 00:55:39.480 --> 00:55:39.840 Absolutely. 00:55:40.040 --> 00:55:42.020 I think that's a really powerful way of looking at it as well. 00:55:42.100 --> 00:55:45.280 Because I think I was talking to a friend of mine, Albert Tate about this and saying, 00:55:45.340 --> 00:55:49.680 you know, he sent a number of his staff because he's like, this is what investment, it's an 00:55:49.680 --> 00:55:50.160 investment. 00:55:50.740 --> 00:55:56.800 But this, let's say this is what the budget goes towards, some kind of experience for you. 00:55:57.420 --> 00:56:02.980 And there are many, many, many, many male leaders who are like, how do I advocate for 00:56:02.980 --> 00:56:03.340 these women? 00:56:03.440 --> 00:56:05.280 How do I, how do I come alongside them? 00:56:05.440 --> 00:56:07.080 And it is in the words that we share. 00:56:07.160 --> 00:56:10.500 It's in the encouragements that we give us and the opportunities we provide and the ways 00:56:10.500 --> 00:56:11.280 in which we invest. 00:56:11.740 --> 00:56:15.940 And so whether it's this or something else, find your way to catalyze the women leaders 00:56:15.940 --> 00:56:16.600 in your space. 00:56:17.400 --> 00:56:17.840 Come on. 00:56:19.100 --> 00:56:19.500 Yeah. 00:56:19.920 --> 00:56:23.320 I so appreciate this, this conversation. 00:56:23.820 --> 00:56:32.580 I, I think for me, I, the way my brain thinks is I start to find the different pieces that 00:56:32.580 --> 00:56:35.520 kind of, you know, I start to see the different Lego bricks. 00:56:35.520 --> 00:56:41.000 And we've had people like Heather Thompson Day on who have talked about just building your 00:56:41.000 --> 00:56:45.140 presence online and the way that we interact with one another and create space. 00:56:45.240 --> 00:56:49.400 We've had people like Isaac Petit-Friere, the episode that dropped today. 00:56:49.820 --> 00:56:55.360 Uh, talking about showing up and like the simplicity of showing up, reading the word, sharing a 00:56:55.360 --> 00:56:58.860 couple of thoughts, and then inviting others into that and continuing to invite others to 00:56:58.860 --> 00:56:59.740 that and to see the hunger. 00:56:59.980 --> 00:57:07.940 I, I see, you know, and, um, uh, and now the one that initially came to mind, I can't grasp, 00:57:07.940 --> 00:57:15.900 but, but, but just the idea that like, there are an incredible amount of ways to, to consider 00:57:15.900 --> 00:57:20.880 what it means to, to see the investment, to see the return of the investment. 00:57:20.880 --> 00:57:27.500 And even as you were saying about Albert sitting, sending people just the, I think there was a 00:57:27.500 --> 00:57:31.160 threat in our conversation as well, that we may not see the return. 00:57:31.420 --> 00:57:33.080 The kingdom will see the return. 00:57:33.640 --> 00:57:39.540 And when we are kingdom minded and we are kingdom first, when we are looking to like, what is the 00:57:39.540 --> 00:57:40.200 Lord doing? 00:57:40.200 --> 00:57:44.140 And as we join him in that work, then we may not see the return. 00:57:44.140 --> 00:57:45.920 And that's, that's biblical, right? 00:57:46.000 --> 00:57:52.200 That like some water, some grow and some, uh, reap the harvest and we may be pushing right 00:57:52.200 --> 00:57:57.640 fruit out the door towards the next thing where someone else is going to reap the benefits. 00:57:57.840 --> 00:58:06.380 And so I just, I see such a kingdom mindedness in this of gather the people, invest, equip, 00:58:06.380 --> 00:58:07.240 push out. 00:58:07.440 --> 00:58:11.940 And we may, the only return we may see is that we now know more strong leaders. 00:58:12.520 --> 00:58:17.500 We may not directly benefit from this, but the kingdom will and the network will. 00:58:17.700 --> 00:58:20.360 And so, um, yeah, yeah. 00:58:20.860 --> 00:58:22.980 Joe, we ask pretty much everybody. 00:58:22.980 --> 00:58:27.040 There's been a couple that we've missed it, but we ask pretty much everybody the same two 00:58:27.040 --> 00:58:27.960 questions at the end. 00:58:27.960 --> 00:58:32.120 And I would just be interested to hear about a time that you were trying to minister to 00:58:32.120 --> 00:58:33.580 people on the internet and it failed. 00:58:33.680 --> 00:58:34.600 And what'd you learn from it? 00:58:36.760 --> 00:58:38.520 Let me think. 00:58:38.800 --> 00:58:40.480 I'm not thinking that it hasn't failed. 00:58:40.600 --> 00:58:41.860 I'm just trying to think about it. 00:58:42.520 --> 00:58:43.720 Or it went poorly. 00:58:44.160 --> 00:58:48.060 I mean, it went poorly is funny because I just think, I don't know that I ever tried 00:58:48.060 --> 00:58:48.740 them to be good. 00:58:50.860 --> 00:58:59.000 I, I mean, I think there are some, I mean, I can't, I can't think of one specific, but 00:58:59.000 --> 00:59:03.700 I think the times when they've gone poorly have either been to do with connection, like 00:59:03.700 --> 00:59:08.000 literal digital connection, like the quality of the connection and thinking, I remember that 00:59:08.000 --> 00:59:11.380 one of the first things we did when we started doing tea time is me and my husband are like, 00:59:11.540 --> 00:59:13.380 yeah, we're going to have to upgrade around here. 00:59:13.480 --> 00:59:14.500 This is going to work for us. 00:59:14.620 --> 00:59:18.000 Cause he was working upstairs and working from home still is two years later. 00:59:18.140 --> 00:59:22.820 And so it was a basic infrastructure thing, um, that, that would needed to happen. 00:59:23.380 --> 00:59:28.440 And, but I think there was also the times when I think I failed is when I've not been prepared 00:59:28.440 --> 00:59:29.360 internally. 00:59:29.920 --> 00:59:30.560 Do you know what I mean? 00:59:30.760 --> 00:59:32.260 This is a spiritual work. 00:59:32.780 --> 00:59:33.140 Yeah. 00:59:33.600 --> 00:59:36.140 Even when I'm talking about eggnog, this is a spiritual work. 00:59:36.140 --> 00:59:40.540 So I think the other times of when it's felt hollow have been when I've not prepared myself 00:59:40.540 --> 00:59:41.700 spiritually for the work. 00:59:42.060 --> 00:59:48.640 You know, I prepare for talks when I'm, when I'm speaking on a stage, I pray, I sit down, 00:59:48.700 --> 00:59:49.640 I look at what I'm doing. 00:59:49.740 --> 00:59:51.500 Even if I'm hosting, I pray. 00:59:51.660 --> 00:59:55.620 And that I think the times when it's been poor have been when I'm just kind of tried to 00:59:55.620 --> 00:59:55.960 wing it. 00:59:57.980 --> 01:00:01.000 There is a difference between being informal and being, and winging it. 01:00:01.560 --> 01:00:01.680 Yeah. 01:00:02.100 --> 01:00:05.640 I am informal when I, I was informal when I did take tea time for sure. 01:00:05.820 --> 01:00:08.460 I didn't even know what, I didn't always know what I was going to talk about, but was 01:00:08.460 --> 01:00:11.260 I emotionally spiritually prepared most of the time? 01:00:11.680 --> 01:00:12.040 Yeah. 01:00:12.640 --> 01:00:16.940 And so I think the times when I failed is when I didn't treat it like a ministry. 01:00:17.980 --> 01:00:18.300 Yeah. 01:00:19.120 --> 01:00:19.600 Love that. 01:00:20.140 --> 01:00:20.820 That's so good. 01:00:21.260 --> 01:00:21.460 Yeah. 01:00:21.500 --> 01:00:23.260 I think that, I think those, those are the times. 01:00:23.360 --> 01:00:26.060 And obviously there were times when you're rushed and you're kind of, you know, like things 01:00:26.060 --> 01:00:27.280 were happening in real time. 01:00:27.560 --> 01:00:31.440 And so then that wasn't necessarily like Joe sit down and have an hour prayer before. 01:00:31.560 --> 01:00:35.320 No, it was just when I came to the day, when I came to the Lord at the start of the 01:00:35.320 --> 01:00:39.680 day, and this was part of the day, was I making myself, was I inviting him to meet 01:00:39.680 --> 01:00:39.800 me? 01:00:39.800 --> 01:00:44.240 Was I inviting God by spirit to empower me to do the things I couldn't do by myself? 01:00:44.600 --> 01:00:47.800 Was I asking the Lord for revelation from his word? 01:00:47.860 --> 01:00:48.720 Was I walking with him? 01:00:48.780 --> 01:00:50.420 Was I staying in close relationship with him? 01:00:50.480 --> 01:00:52.180 Was I, was I forgiving my enemies? 01:00:52.440 --> 01:00:52.840 Do you know what I mean? 01:00:52.860 --> 01:00:54.260 And all of these sorts of things? 01:00:54.740 --> 01:00:56.640 Was I walking with him? 01:00:57.660 --> 01:01:02.940 And I, I noted the times when it felt more hollow or a bit more threadbare. 01:01:03.440 --> 01:01:05.440 The connection might've been great by that point. 01:01:05.660 --> 01:01:10.800 Um, I may have remembered the makeup and all, and the lighting might've been great, but this 01:01:10.800 --> 01:01:12.140 is a work of the spirit still. 01:01:12.740 --> 01:01:14.560 It's a ministry of the spirit still. 01:01:14.660 --> 01:01:20.160 It's a mission because God is seeking humanity to invite them into relationship with him. 01:01:20.540 --> 01:01:21.780 I just want to be ready. 01:01:22.080 --> 01:01:24.500 And so I want to show up spiritually as well. 01:01:24.500 --> 01:01:30.200 And I think the times when I failed was when I was just like, ah, well, you're right. 01:01:31.460 --> 01:01:32.860 No, it's good. 01:01:33.660 --> 01:01:33.860 Yeah. 01:01:34.140 --> 01:01:39.580 And so we, we don't, we, we love hearing kind of like the reality of this is that like, 01:01:39.580 --> 01:01:44.920 it's messy, but we also do want to celebrate, as you said, we want to celebrate the good. 01:01:45.060 --> 01:01:52.200 And so, um, can you just share a time or, or maybe in the same veins, just like when it, 01:01:52.760 --> 01:01:59.360 when it went really well, or when you saw God move or provide for a moment in your ministry 01:01:59.360 --> 01:01:59.840 online. 01:02:01.460 --> 01:02:03.420 I probably would say the coaching platform. 01:02:03.660 --> 01:02:10.000 I probably would say that because for me, the goal is always to see leaders stepping 01:02:10.000 --> 01:02:10.780 into their own. 01:02:10.780 --> 01:02:19.320 So when I hear of, I, I, I, I'm keenly aware, you know, I have spent most of my life, I have 01:02:19.320 --> 01:02:22.080 been in leadership in one form or another for nearly 30 years. 01:02:22.400 --> 01:02:27.220 And most of that time has been physically with people because there wasn't an internet that 01:02:27.220 --> 01:02:31.380 we could use when I began, you know, and there. 01:02:31.460 --> 01:02:34.840 It wasn't, uh, and there weren't smartphones and all that kind of, and all that kind of jazz. 01:02:35.120 --> 01:02:42.000 And so I'm used to that for me being in doing things online is often me walking in weakness. 01:02:42.200 --> 01:02:44.740 It really, it really is walking in weakness. 01:02:44.740 --> 01:02:50.520 And the goal has always been to see other leaders rise up and do what they're called to do. 01:02:51.080 --> 01:02:56.640 So when, when we hear back from someone who listened to a podcast and said, you know, this 01:02:56.640 --> 01:02:57.120 is what I'm doing. 01:02:57.180 --> 01:03:00.580 I remember meeting somebody in England a few years ago and she just came up to me. 01:03:00.600 --> 01:03:01.900 She said, I just want to thank you for the podcast. 01:03:02.060 --> 01:03:02.900 I'm, I'm a leader. 01:03:03.040 --> 01:03:05.140 I lead a church and it has been a lifeline. 01:03:05.140 --> 01:03:07.800 And I'm like, God, what are you doing that? 01:03:07.800 --> 01:03:14.280 God will be the kindness of God, the kindness of God, that there is this free resource that 01:03:14.280 --> 01:03:20.720 has been a lifeline to a leader is a really humbling thing that a blog post has, has given 01:03:20.720 --> 01:03:27.300 somebody hope that a, that a tweet or that something on Instagram, I, you know, yeah, there 01:03:27.300 --> 01:03:28.440 are, there are a few of them. 01:03:28.480 --> 01:03:30.920 Actually, let me, I'll say two, I'll narrow it down to two. 01:03:30.980 --> 01:03:35.580 Now I'm rambling the coaching community has been a powerful one because you get to do 01:03:35.580 --> 01:03:40.060 the arc of a journey with a community of people and you hear the stories and you read up on 01:03:40.060 --> 01:03:43.120 and women from around the world, you know, different continents. 01:03:43.440 --> 01:03:47.640 We've got four or five continents at any given time gathering and on that space. 01:03:47.860 --> 01:03:52.100 And to think that's this woman in, in Australia, ministers to this woman in Canada, who ministers 01:03:52.100 --> 01:03:55.940 to this woman in Spain, who helps this woman in Jordan, who helps this woman in somewhere. 01:03:56.100 --> 01:03:57.280 I mean, it's mind blowing. 01:03:57.460 --> 01:04:01.920 It's just mind blowing that God would do that and that they are impairing one another and 01:04:01.920 --> 01:04:05.660 giving ideas and being a support for one another is just a privilege and a joy to be involved. 01:04:06.020 --> 01:04:09.800 So that would, that ongoing one, but in terms of the instance, I think some of the stuff on 01:04:09.800 --> 01:04:15.300 Instagram in the past year, I felt really challenged to just tell the stories of women leaders in 01:04:15.300 --> 01:04:21.320 the Bible and not a massive theological treatise or anything like just a bit of their story. 01:04:21.860 --> 01:04:26.320 And I think what hit home about that one is the amount of people who've slid into the DMs 01:04:26.320 --> 01:04:27.780 and said, I didn't know these women existed. 01:04:28.900 --> 01:04:30.420 I didn't know these women existed. 01:04:30.580 --> 01:04:35.120 Some people asked if they were true and they said, you know, I would have seen myself differently. 01:04:35.240 --> 01:04:38.500 What was possible if I had known about her and people who would thank me. 01:04:38.700 --> 01:04:43.740 And, and although when I say successful or things that have gone really well, it's not 01:04:43.740 --> 01:04:46.900 been a neat bow on that, but it's opening up a world. 01:04:46.980 --> 01:04:48.500 It's opening up the word to people. 01:04:48.580 --> 01:04:52.920 It's opening up a sense of, Oh, so God said, Holder should do that. 01:04:52.920 --> 01:04:54.200 Or Shearer should do that. 01:04:54.280 --> 01:04:55.980 Well, maybe God can do something with me. 01:04:56.680 --> 01:04:59.120 And, um, that that's been a privilege to be involved. 01:04:59.240 --> 01:05:01.600 And again, that he's just, God is moving. 01:05:02.380 --> 01:05:06.480 God is moving through these things and touching people in ways that I could have never planned 01:05:06.480 --> 01:05:06.740 for. 01:05:07.200 --> 01:05:07.640 So good. 01:05:08.080 --> 01:05:08.780 That's so good. 01:05:08.840 --> 01:05:13.200 I think the simplicity, you know, that as you're again talking about, it's, it's simple. 01:05:13.340 --> 01:05:17.740 The things that we have to do do not have to be drawn out, um, strategized. 01:05:17.800 --> 01:05:19.980 Like there's good to that obviously. 01:05:19.980 --> 01:05:24.480 And there's good to, to have these bigger things that they have a little bit more organization, 01:05:24.480 --> 01:05:30.420 but even the simplicity of, let me just stare, share the stories about women in the Bible 01:05:30.420 --> 01:05:35.620 and the impact that can have to put just a little bit in it to, to know the story and 01:05:35.620 --> 01:05:38.960 to tell the story and what that can do is, is incredible. 01:05:38.960 --> 01:05:43.000 I think that that really is the heart of what we're trying to do is we, we look at people 01:05:43.000 --> 01:05:46.580 who are doing the work of online ministry. 01:05:47.040 --> 01:05:51.600 And so the exploration of that is that we just want to hear the story, tell the story, share 01:05:51.600 --> 01:05:52.120 the story. 01:05:52.280 --> 01:06:00.040 And then that's so hopeful to, to, to know that like, yeah, just the impact we, we might 01:06:00.040 --> 01:06:04.000 hear like me, you know, I'm really grateful that you were able to hear that. 01:06:04.000 --> 01:06:11.580 And, and to, to hear that, like, this has been a lifeline to, I just, uh, am so encouraged 01:06:11.580 --> 01:06:17.160 by the work that you're doing and getting to hear a little bit about the story and, uh, and 01:06:17.160 --> 01:06:25.900 just to, to have the privilege and the honor of hearing so much of just the heart behind 01:06:25.900 --> 01:06:28.100 it today, I think is incredible. 01:06:28.100 --> 01:06:33.820 And my hope is, is that, you know, I know that, that the gatherings are looking to be 01:06:33.820 --> 01:06:40.760 intensively small, but my hope is that, you know, as, as these gatherings, collectives 01:06:40.760 --> 01:06:47.940 continue to happen, that the, uh, the inspiration towards, as you said, whether it's at Aeser 01:06:47.940 --> 01:06:57.320 or whether it's, you know, another gathering, but that women and women leaders would not just 01:06:57.320 --> 01:07:06.500 be encouraged, but equipped to lead and to impact the world, physical, digital, and everywhere. 01:07:06.900 --> 01:07:08.020 Yeah, absolutely. 01:07:08.900 --> 01:07:13.400 Well, this is, this is really, really, this has been an incredible conversation. 01:07:13.640 --> 01:07:19.660 It's, it's definitely, uh, I think one that we're going to have to just come back to even 01:07:19.660 --> 01:07:20.900 more to just unpack more. 01:07:20.980 --> 01:07:23.600 I'd love to hear stories from the collective as well. 01:07:23.660 --> 01:07:26.500 And so anyway, thank you so much for your time, Jo. 01:07:26.980 --> 01:07:27.500 Thank you. 01:07:27.720 --> 01:07:27.920 Yeah. 01:07:27.920 --> 01:07:29.060 Thank you for having me. 01:07:29.600 --> 01:07:30.800 Sarah, do you have anything else? 01:07:31.640 --> 01:07:31.860 Nope. 01:07:31.860 --> 01:07:33.820 I just like to keep talking forever, but. 01:07:33.880 --> 01:07:34.720 Yeah, absolutely. 01:07:35.500 --> 01:07:35.940 Absolutely. 01:07:35.940 --> 01:07:40.420 Um, you can tell your people as well. 01:07:40.740 --> 01:07:44.520 Um, and you can add this in, in your, however you want to, if there are people who want to 01:07:44.520 --> 01:07:49.360 go to the Aeser collective, give them a code, like give them, I think podcast, get some money 01:07:49.360 --> 01:07:51.140 off cup of Joe gets some money off. 01:07:51.460 --> 01:07:52.380 Um, yeah. 01:07:52.540 --> 01:07:53.280 So feel free. 01:07:53.720 --> 01:07:54.480 Yeah, absolutely. 01:07:55.280 --> 01:08:01.500 Um, Joe, uh, where, where can people find you if they're looking to, to just continue to 01:08:01.500 --> 01:08:04.420 learn from you and to be involved in the things you're involved in? 01:08:04.980 --> 01:08:05.380 Yes. 01:08:05.520 --> 01:08:07.360 Well, website is joesaxson.com. 01:08:07.580 --> 01:08:09.060 Um, that is a good landing pad. 01:08:09.360 --> 01:08:15.680 Um, but in terms of the socials, if you want to, um, Instagram and Facebook are probably 01:08:15.680 --> 01:08:17.300 the places I'm most active. 01:08:17.360 --> 01:08:20.520 So at Joe Saxton, though, we'll get you to Twitter. 01:08:20.720 --> 01:08:22.840 We'll get you to Instagram, Facebook. 01:08:23.080 --> 01:08:24.280 Those, those will be the things. 01:08:24.440 --> 01:08:25.480 LinkedIn is there as well. 01:08:25.480 --> 01:08:30.040 But, uh, in terms of most actively engaged at this moment, Instagram and Facebook probably 01:08:30.040 --> 01:08:30.420 are the ones. 01:08:31.000 --> 01:08:31.160 Great. 01:08:31.640 --> 01:08:31.960 Perfect. 01:08:32.680 --> 01:08:33.200 Thank you. 01:08:33.540 --> 01:08:33.940 Awesome. 01:08:34.740 --> 01:08:39.880 And is it okay to push people towards the, um, the coaching network? 01:08:39.980 --> 01:08:40.300 Is that? 01:08:40.520 --> 01:08:41.460 Yes, please do. 01:08:41.720 --> 01:08:41.880 Yeah. 01:08:41.940 --> 01:08:42.100 Perfect. 01:08:42.720 --> 01:08:43.040 Yeah. 01:08:43.300 --> 01:08:44.220 That'd be wonderful. 01:08:44.780 --> 01:08:45.100 Awesome. 01:08:45.400 --> 01:08:45.780 All right. 01:08:45.840 --> 01:08:48.060 Well, thank you so much, uh, for your time. 01:08:48.320 --> 01:08:52.100 And, uh, thanks to all who've listened to this conversation. 01:08:52.240 --> 01:08:53.640 What a rich conversation. 01:08:53.640 --> 01:09:01.740 Uh, you know, I think there are moments we've talked about Sarah and I on and offline of the 01:09:01.740 --> 01:09:04.320 conversations are so timely for what's happening in the world. 01:09:04.820 --> 01:09:08.560 Um, but then also knowing, like, I think one of the things that I've started to look forward 01:09:08.560 --> 01:09:16.460 to is editing and listening back and hearing how God is, is outside of time. 01:09:16.880 --> 01:09:24.080 Like, and we could go on and on about that and how that, that continues to, to think about 01:09:24.080 --> 01:09:29.360 digital, but, but just the way that the spirit uses these conversations just in our lives. 01:09:29.780 --> 01:09:34.180 And, uh, and Joe, I, I am so thankful that you took the time with us. 01:09:34.240 --> 01:09:38.180 And I hope that if you're listening and this has impacted you, that you would not only share 01:09:38.180 --> 01:09:44.920 it, um, just for the sake of pocket pulpit, but, but to share with someone he needs to hear 01:09:44.920 --> 01:09:49.240 that one, they're seen, they're acknowledged and that you, you just believe in them. 01:09:50.860 --> 01:09:55.720 So anyway, thanks for listening to the pocket pulpit and we'll see you next week. 01:09:55.720 --> 01:09:56.220 Bye.