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 Welcome to the Church Digital Podcast. Through this podcast, we'll talk about the technological

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 innovations within the church. But more than tech for tech itself, we'll address deeper questions.

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 Is disciple making possible digitally? How should we approach the digital mission field?

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 Can a biblically grounded church operate in digital space? Oh, and where does the metaverse

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 fit into all this? Whether you're a big or small church, an established church, or a startup church

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 plant. The Church Digital's goal is to help churches like yours learn to be a multiplying church,

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 digitally and physically. Our heart? That churches like yours will discover a newfound focus on

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 disciple making that will revolutionize your church. And now, here's your host, Jeff Reed.

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 Well, hey, everybody, and welcome to the Digital Church Podcast. I'm Mark. Jeff Reed is unfortunately

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 not able to be with us. I thought you were saying I'm Mark. Jeff Reed.

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 Hi. I'm Mark. Jeff Reed. No, Jeff Reed is unable to be here. The normal host. Has anybody ever

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 hosted the Church Digital Podcast without Jeff? I have once. You did. I have once. And he did.

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 Yeah. And then everybody's favorite episode. Yeah. Yeah. It's the most played. Ooh. The most played

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 episode. It's the most played episode. Yeah. It's the most played. Perceptionist. Yeah. And so

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 we're here. Yeah. He just listens to it. It's at home on his server. But we're here because all of us are

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 currently at Exponential in Orlando. And we're hanging out. And Jeff is off networking, schmoozing.

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 Yeah. He might be napping. Yeah. He's like, I can't make it. I have a scheduled nap in the vendor hall

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 behind a table somewhere. So he's doing that. It's next year. You're not. You don't have gold status yet.

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 Yeah. Next year. So we're here. And we're just going to be talking about our experiences expo.

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 And because expo is like the resounding thing that I've heard in like every session I've been in and

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 everything is like this constant drive of like, this is the way we did it in the church. It's not

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 working. And so there's so much innovation. It's been everything from digital ministry to jujitsu

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 ministry to, you know, barbecue ministry, pressure washing pastors. Like there's a pressure washing

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 pastors here. Yeah. Yeah. Moving from pressure washing simulator into becoming a pastor who

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 pressure washes. Brewing or brewing pastors. And I was like, oh, that doesn't sound like a

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 pressure washing. We line up all the pastors. Yeah. So in all of that, like we're here. Got a lot of

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 innovators who are here in the room and on camera with us. So we're going to talk a little bit

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 about the amazing Airbnb that we're getting the chance to stay at together. It's really good.

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 It's fine. I guess you haven't stayed in enough Airbnb. You legit. Like when you, when you get an Airbnb

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 with cheese under the comforter, then you know you've arrived. Andy, Andy's sleeping on an air

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 mattress in a laundry room right now. Yeah, I'm right now sleeping in the laundry room. It's been great.

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 I could chew on the air. Yeah, it was that warm. Yeah, it was that warm. Yeah. It's an air mattress

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 that I brought from home. But yes, I do have a bed. Yeah, I brought it with me in pain to sleep in

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 here. Yeah, I have one of the shots with the secret room. A private room. Sleep's 10 if you count the

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 bathtub. Just please don't tell Bay Hope that this episode is airing as they sent you and we put you

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 on your own air mattress in the laundry room. So we're going to introduce everyone who's on the call or

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 if you're watching on YouTube on the video today. My name is Mark. I am the lead and founding pastor

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 of Lux Digital Church. And this next to me is Bubba, who is the CEO and founder of Love Thy Nerd,

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 which we'll talk about in a little bit. We've got Flat Cap Dapper Pastor, who's a physical church pastor,

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 but also doing a lot of experimenting and live streaming on Twitch and getting into that. We have

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 Jate from Jate Live, who is here with us. And if you listen to the podcast for any length of time,

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 you've already heard Jate on the podcast. It was on two weeks ago.

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 Actually, you're on one. Are you like the number one? It's like you or Tyler Sansom who's been on

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 the most probably. You were the first ever. Were you the first ever? You were close. I was on like

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 the sixth episode, I think. Number one. I don't know what the first. Episode six. I might have just

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 been Jeff. I was on the least played episode. We have Annie Mage from Bay Hope Church, but also

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 our director of on-demand ministries at Lux Digital Church. Matt from Love Thy Nerd, who's here with

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 us. And we have Zach, who's here from Storyland Studios, but also just a big part of planning and

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 the vision behind the Megazord Summit, which we talked about in this season specifically of the

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 Church Digital Podcast, because every person who's on, for the most part, so far, I think, was at

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 Megazord. And so, the whole spirit. Yeah. Well, Flat Cap's going to be on another episode,

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 and I don't know if that's going to be after this one. Okay. Yeah. So, it's true of the people who've

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 been on thus far on this season. So, but I want to give you guys each a chance just to share a little

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 bit about your heart and why you're on the Church Digital Podcast and why you are, you know, like,

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 why you're in the ministry and thing that you're in. And we'll start with Matt and Bubba first. And you

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 guys can each share a little bit about LTN. We'll go around. Yeah. So, Love Thy Nerd is amazing. Super

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 dope. We really love it. I agree. Yes. The thing that we are doing is good and pass on to the next

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 person, please. Yeah. I hate to be the guy who has to go after that. No. So, we're a ministry that

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 exists to be the love of Jesus to nerds and nerd culture. And we do that in a billion different ways.

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 But three major ways and avenues that we take are we take a relational approach to outreach and

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 evangelism. That we believe we have to earn the right to speak truth into someone's life. Not speak

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 truth at them. You don't have to earn that right. But to speak it actually into the life and have it

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 see change happen. We think you got to earn that right. And we don't just think it. We've kind of

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 seen that in our context to be true. We also have thoughtful content because we want to see people

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 actually engage with the content that they're consuming, both Christianly and critically.

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 And so, it's not just enough for you to watch the latest Marvel movie, but we want to have

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 legitimate conversations about that. We're not going to find the Jesus character in every single one of

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 those things. Because I don't think it's a one-to-one. And when you do that, it breaks down

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 immediately.

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 Certainly not in Star Wars episode nine. You're not going to find it there.

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 We don't connect the Bible to abomination.

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 Well, it's Spock. So, we do that. And then, I mean, we really have intentional community. Like

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 there's this word that we talk about all the time, Greek word koinonia, and it is intentional

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 fellowship. And that's really what we try to create as best as we're able to do online, in person,

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 in a million different spaces.

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 Yeah. We're looking for those shared experiences with people. Like being nerds and gamers,

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 it's super easy to sit down or sit down online or wherever it is and just be able to play a game,

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 share an experience, and then develop that real conversation, a real relationship with them.

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 And the whole reason we do any of that stuff is so that we can share the heaviest truth,

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 which is that Jesus loves you. And we want you to have the opportunity to come to know Jesus in the

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 same way that we do, knowing that people are not projects. They're absolutely people. And they may

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 never get there, but that doesn't mean that we stop. And so, we're able to do that. It's

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 transferable to any area, but we just happen to use nerd culture, being pop culture stuff,

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 you know, video games, board games, comic books, and movies. That's what we do.

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 Awesome. It was so great. We love it. Yeah.

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 Well, you know, one of the things that I really enjoy about Love Thy Nerd and Matt and Bubba is

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 they really do, in many ways, you can say we do these three things, but in so many other ways,

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 every one of those things is revolving around that shared experience, right? Everything is around

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 shared experience, which, shameless plug, if you're listening to this podcast, then you should also

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 know that there's a book out by Jeff Reed and Dr. John Harris called Sharing Jesus Online that talks

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 about the power of shared experiences in our culture and why gaming really, and the book isn't

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 about that, but in our context, why gaming is such a really powerful shared experience, I would say,

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 especially for men. I'm not saying that women don't game, but there's something about with men,

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 when we have something to do with our hands, that allows us to connect in a deep emotional and

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 relational way. LTN does that really well. Yeah. The statistics actually are that 48% of women

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 surveyed actually are gamers. So there's a rising, yeah, that is true. That is true. I don't know

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 the numbers, but that is true. There's a lot of female gamers. But yeah, but my point is, is that

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 for a lot of women, they're able to sit and just like catch up, right? And a lot of us as guys,

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 we need something to do with our hands in order to do that. LTN does that in spades really well.

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 And Dr. John and Jess's book talks literally about that. And it's on the website and you can search

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 for it on Amazon and it's an ebook and a physical book. So check it out. Flat cap, tell us a little

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 about what you're doing because physical charge pastor exploring in the digital space. And it's

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 kind of like, you're not a gamer, so, but you're in gaming space right now. So it's kind of new to

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 you. And, but you've been in it now for what, like a year? Have you been doing live streaming for

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 over a year? I haven't been doing live streaming for, well, I've been over a year. Yeah,

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 actually. Yeah. Okay. Probably a year and a half. Okay. So I've only actually been on Twitch for two

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 years. Okay. And I heard my kids constantly talk about Twitch when they were back in middle school

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 and high school. And they talk about, I'm going to go watch somebody play video games. And I'm like,

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 why don't you play the video game yourself? Why are you watching someone else? Oh,

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 you're one of those. I was one of those dads. Yes, exactly. And I had no idea why I would ever want to

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 go over there. And then I, I do, I do a thing with pastors where I bring them together, uh, so that we

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 are, and it's with Barnabas, uh, ministries, they do John 17, 23 groups because we want to have unity.

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 And I really, really believe in that. So, uh, get, get guys across town or gals and we get together

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 and we're all pastors. We're all on mission and we're sharing lives together. We're trying to do

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 that. And, uh, in the middle of COVID, uh, a guy, uh, that some of you, I know he's been on the

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 podcast before, uh, pastor Brock VR knew him in real life. We got together and I listened to him

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 talk about, I'm doing, you know, VR stuff and I'm, I'm doing all this stuff like two and a half years.

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 He just kept talking about, talking about it. And in the middle of COVID, I resigned from what I was

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 doing and sitting home feeling sorry for myself, which, you know, you do when you have that happen.

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 Sure. And I said, I guess I'll go watch him. I got nothing else to do. And boy, the people that

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 were there just loving on me when I showed up, I'm like, I have, I've not experienced this in a

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 church. Why is this happening here? And why have I not known about it? And so he started doing this

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 right away. He kept saying, Hey, go follow him. He's going to stream. And I'm going,

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 no, I'm not. Why would I ever do that?

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 No. So actually, uh, Alice in the palace was the first one that followed me. Like he said it and

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 she instantly followed me. And I'm like going, who are you? And why would you do that?

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 Jake, it's a percentage of that fall.

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 So, so, so hanging out there for a while, I started streaming and all I, and, and I started

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 working in churches who are struggling. They may close, they may not close, but they don't know

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 what they're doing. And so that's what I'm doing part-time real life. So, cause I have to eat.

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 And then I got addicted to, and I'm going to say that I got addicted to being online and reading

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 through the Bible. And that's what I do. It's like, that isn't like the, what? 0.1% of people

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 who are probably on Twitch is I spend two hours reading through the Bible Monday through Friday.

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 Maybe like you and three other people. Yeah. Me and three other people. Yeah. I'm not counting

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 those that just put it on autoplay. I mean, they're actually there. And, uh, it's just, it's just been

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 a blast. And then as I'm doing that and engaging with people, um, I shifted cause I actually had been

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 streaming worship services for 10 years live before COVID. But our only intent was when you're sick and

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 you're home or you're, you're going down to Florida, but you know, for the middle of winter,

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 cause where I'm in Michigan, it's a, you can still watch and still be connected. And I suddenly

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 realized what I was doing was missing a mission field. And so now I'm trying to figure out, that's

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 why I'm at expo. It's like, okay, God, you want me to plant a digital church? I don't know what it's

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 supposed to look like, but it is, I have to know the culture and I have to know who the target is.

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 And I have to figure all that out. And that's why I'm here at expo trying to figure all that out.

00:12:50.360 --> 00:12:55.540
 Awesome. Awesome. Jata, I mean, obviously the, a lot of the podcast community knows you,

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 knows about your story, probably follows your stream, to be honest with you. Um, tell it,

00:12:59.060 --> 00:13:03.300
 but tell us a little bit about, uh, just a brief synopsis on what you're doing and, uh,

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 what you're doing on Twitch. Yeah. Uh, I play video games.

00:13:06.880 --> 00:13:13.680
 You know, well said. Yeah. Yeah. I do. I get to play video games and, um, every game,

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 every video game. Um, just get to hang out and chat with people and hopefully get a real

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 relationship with them. Um, my goal in general is to have 50% of the stream be non-Christian.

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 So yeah, like, I mean, cool. People should come follow and like support for sure. But my goal is

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 not really, uh, for probably the people listening to this podcast, but it's most

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 mostly as an outreach as like a missionary. So, um, but I play games and I pray for people.

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 And through that, I get to have a real relationship that hopefully leads to deeper

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 conversations and questions. Um, on Saturdays, we go through a chapter of the Bible while playing a video

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 game. And, um, usually those take about like three to four hours for us because there's a lot of

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 questions that come in. So that's, that's the majority I would say of my, my ministry is mostly

00:14:07.240 --> 00:14:14.920
 just like actually being active in people's lives and trying to remember everybody's names and trying

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 to, uh, remember what their prayer requests were and, uh, just have a, you know, just be a friend and

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 through that get to get to pray for them. And I don't know, it all kind of works out. God works it

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 all out in a wash. So. And you haven't visited Jade live yet. Like I know Jade saying we want 50%

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 of my chat and things to be, but go lurk even because I think the big thing for me is when I'm

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 trying to help people understand what's happening on Twitch, Jade is a really good person to direct

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 people to, even if you're just sitting there and you're not interacting and you're just listening

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 because you begin to understand not the entertainer side. Like if you come to Twitch,

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 you might go watch someone has 50, 60,000 people watching them. And you're like, I don't really,

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 okay, it's any, whatever, kind of get it. Um, but I don't, it's pretty good. But when you,

00:15:00.480 --> 00:15:05.400
 when you come to Jade stream, you realize the genuine community and family and connection that

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 happens there. That's very, uh, unique to the space, but that Jade leans into really,

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 really well, which is why I encourage people when I talk to them and they're like, well,

00:15:13.220 --> 00:15:19.460
 what's going on there? I like go watch Jade stream, like go hang out there for a day and just listen

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 and just see what's happening because it's a, it's a really, it's a really perfect example.

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 And he'll be online the whole day. He doesn't need a discord server when he's online all the time.

00:15:28.080 --> 00:15:34.200
 Yeah. Yeah. Uh, spending on his sleep schedules at that moment. Uh, Andy, uh, tell us a little

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 about, uh, I mean, you are once again, kind of like flat cap, you are in two worlds, one where

00:15:38.500 --> 00:15:43.720
 you're involved with us at Lux with a fully digital church, but then you're also an online pastor at a

00:15:43.720 --> 00:15:49.320
 very physical church. Um, so tell us a little bit about like your, your narrative and your stuff.

00:15:49.420 --> 00:15:54.960
 Yeah. Uh, digital pastor for Bay Hope church, been there for three and a half ish going on four

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 years, uh, now and was there before COVID started kind of was doing the whole thing. They needed,

00:16:00.380 --> 00:16:04.420
 they were streaming to a couple thousand people every single Sunday and didn't know what to do

00:16:04.420 --> 00:16:08.280
 with these people for over 10 years. And so they were like, Hey, we need a pastor. I was worship

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 pastor up in Atlanta and long, you know, long story there, but ended up in Tampa. And that's where Bay Hope

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 is. And really started kind of getting my feet, uh, under the desk and then COVID happened. And then

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 the entire world changed in terms of streaming. And it was kind of a boon that I was there at the

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 time. And so I got kind of got to see a lot of the transformation with a lot of churches was kind

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 of consulting and helping a lot of smaller to mid-sized churches get their feet up or get their,

00:16:34.980 --> 00:16:39.300
 you know, their, their platforms up during COVID. And what I found was that they were missing the

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 engagement piece a lot. They were missing the actual engagement, that weird kind of buzzword that we all

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 use, but they were missing that. It was like, all the questions were focused on how, what cameras do

00:16:48.140 --> 00:16:51.320
 I need? What microphones do I need? And it's like, no, no, no, you're missing the point. You need to

00:16:51.320 --> 00:16:55.000
 have the relationship side. Um, and so I kind of actually started consulting with a company called

00:16:55.000 --> 00:17:00.400
 altar live, go use altar live. We actually have a number of our subscribers that, um, watch and

00:17:00.400 --> 00:17:04.480
 listen to this podcast. So thank you everybody. Keep that up. Uh, we really like that. Uh,

00:17:04.560 --> 00:17:09.600
 altar has been growing, but started consulting with them, got introduced to Mark, uh, was asked to go

00:17:09.600 --> 00:17:16.340
 interview Mark actually a year and a half ago, maybe two years ago, is something like that. Um,

00:17:16.340 --> 00:17:22.160
 and I had kind of already been stalking Lux a little bit on Twitch and, uh, so interviewed him

00:17:22.160 --> 00:17:26.120
 super loved it. I was doing my own podcast at the time. It was one of my own podcasts interviewed Mark

00:17:26.120 --> 00:17:30.460
 for that as well. And at that point I was like, Hey dude, I want to help out. Um, and so kind of

00:17:30.460 --> 00:17:35.440
 just started there and had never met you, uh, really love the engagement piece that Lux was doing

00:17:35.440 --> 00:17:39.620
 because there was something way different there. Uh, and we can talk about that later, but there's

00:17:39.620 --> 00:17:43.980
 something way different happening with everybody here in a digital capacity versus what's happening

00:17:43.980 --> 00:17:48.760
 in the physical space. And I want to bring that to the physical space because man, people need that.

00:17:48.760 --> 00:17:53.240
 They, they need to be able to understand that the 167 hours that you're not in church,

00:17:53.240 --> 00:17:59.000
 there's a way to talk to people who actually care. Uh, and then lo and behold, Mark offered me,

00:17:59.060 --> 00:18:03.300
 we met here at expo last year for the first time physically got to hug his neck. And, uh,

00:18:03.820 --> 00:18:09.040
 we ended up, I ended up, he offered me a job eight months ago ish. Let's say. Yeah. Yeah.

00:18:09.040 --> 00:18:13.780
 July. Whatever. I was saying you didn't. Hey, thanks. I took the job. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

00:18:13.780 --> 00:18:18.140
 Hey, watch this. Hey, you want a job? Yeah. Oh, let's look at the budget.

00:18:18.140 --> 00:18:22.120
 Yeah. Yeah. There was that. Yeah. There was that. So, uh, it's been great though,

00:18:22.200 --> 00:18:27.900
 working with Lux. Um, and actually I'm also helping with DCN and, uh, doing their directing of

00:18:27.900 --> 00:18:31.480
 resources and all sorts of stuff. So there's just, there's a whole lot there, but, but the biggest piece

00:18:31.480 --> 00:18:34.740
 kind of like flat cap is alluding to is getting the people that in the physical space to understand

00:18:34.740 --> 00:18:38.800
 that there are people that are constantly online and constantly wanting to communicate with them.

00:18:39.700 --> 00:18:43.640
 Oh, Zach, tell us a little about, cause you work for Storyland, Plain Joe. I can't remember

00:18:43.640 --> 00:18:49.540
 which brand is the most important one this week, um, that you guys run by. Um, they kind of are.

00:18:49.540 --> 00:18:53.460
 It's, it's so interesting to me because they are a branding company, but I'm never sure which brand

00:18:53.460 --> 00:18:59.860
 they are. It's like, it's the, that's, that's a couple of issues. Yeah. Yeah. But it works.

00:18:59.920 --> 00:19:04.360
 It works. So tell us a little about yourself, uh, Zach, uh, here on the DCN podcast, and then,

00:19:04.360 --> 00:19:10.340
 uh, maybe a little bit about what Plain Joe and, and Storyland do, what you guys are about. Um,

00:19:10.520 --> 00:19:13.600
 and also maybe a little bit of your, your part in Megazord real quick.

00:19:14.060 --> 00:19:19.880
 Yeah. Um, so I work for Storyland Studios within that Plain Joe is a Storyland studio and we focus

00:19:19.880 --> 00:19:24.920
 on all the cause related. So it's all the same people, but we have a cause related focus. Um,

00:19:24.920 --> 00:19:30.260
 virtually everyone in the studio, um, is Christian and just has a passion for that world,

00:19:30.260 --> 00:19:36.280
 but we also serve themed entertainment clients like Disney and Universal, um, and other clients

00:19:36.280 --> 00:19:39.940
 internationally. So we're able to take that experience and apply it to the church, but

00:19:39.940 --> 00:19:46.300
 the entertainment clients tend to have, um, a little bit of a allergic reaction to if they go

00:19:46.300 --> 00:19:50.000
 on your website and they see that you designed a church and they say, well, that's not the same

00:19:50.000 --> 00:19:54.820
 thing. Also, we don't like the church. Um, and so we have two front doors. We say, Hey,

00:19:55.260 --> 00:20:01.260
 church, Plain Joe is your studio and we will serve you well. And themed entertainment clients,

00:20:01.720 --> 00:20:08.280
 Storyland is your studio and don't worry about Plain Joe. Um, and what I love about it.

00:20:09.280 --> 00:20:16.260
 So I have a background in construction and we just, the whole studio, the studio's whole idea

00:20:16.260 --> 00:20:21.640
 is, um, storytelling worthy of the story. And we'd say the story has the, the church has the best story

00:20:21.640 --> 00:20:27.120
 ever told. And we want to tell that story well. And the church historically has done, uh, at least

00:20:27.120 --> 00:20:32.220
 a pretty good job of doing that with words, but we have spaces and websites and culture and

00:20:32.220 --> 00:20:38.260
 communication strategies, um, that are speaking and often speaking louder than our words. And we don't

00:20:38.260 --> 00:20:43.020
 have, not everyone has a skillset or the ability to manage that as well. So we get to come in and help

00:20:43.020 --> 00:20:48.020
 tell that story. Um, so making sure that whatever story you're trying to tell as a church, your unique

00:20:48.020 --> 00:20:53.440
 way that you're communicating the gospel, um, that you're doing that consistently on your website and

00:20:53.440 --> 00:20:59.340
 your brand and your culture and your spaces. And we often end up working with very innovative

00:20:59.340 --> 00:21:05.940
 churches, very innovative nonprofits. Um, it's just the nature of what we do. And the beauty of that is

00:21:05.940 --> 00:21:13.400
 I am a card carrying nerd. I love Marvel and video games. And that's just always been part of my DNA.

00:21:13.740 --> 00:21:18.680
 And so as I get to start working in this space, I discover there's this whole community of people

00:21:18.680 --> 00:21:25.560
 who are on the bleeding edge of church, big C church stuff, trying to serve our nerdy neighbors

00:21:25.560 --> 00:21:31.260
 as well. And I'm sitting there thinking, man, all of my closest friends are people who need this

00:21:31.260 --> 00:21:35.740
 ministry. The nerds who hang out every Friday night playing D and D and that's where they found

00:21:35.740 --> 00:21:41.160
 community. They had broken homes or they just had tough childhoods and they found the best community

00:21:41.160 --> 00:21:46.340
 around the D and D table and not in the church. And I love these guys. And I'm like, how do I serve

00:21:46.340 --> 00:21:51.800
 these guys well? And I'm like, Oh, it's, it's these, I need these ministries to succeed so that my friends

00:21:51.800 --> 00:21:57.400
 can be saved. And, uh, so I'm like, man, if I can use any of the stuff that I'm learning through, uh,

00:21:57.400 --> 00:22:04.560
 and applying and all the experience I'm getting in doing work for the church, um, and helping clients

00:22:04.560 --> 00:22:09.700
 tell their stories well and help to do that in this space, um, that's just the biggest one I could ask

00:22:09.700 --> 00:22:15.560
 for. And so, yeah, we had the opportunity last year to, uh, I, uh, the first time I met Mark, I said,

00:22:15.620 --> 00:22:19.720
 Hey, what do you think about if we tried to raise like a couple of tens of thousands of dollars and

00:22:19.720 --> 00:22:25.840
 fly a bunch of people into a city and like hang out and just like try to be fuel and engine of all

00:22:25.840 --> 00:22:29.840
 these nerd culture ministries. And he was like, yeah, that seems like a good idea person. I just

00:22:29.840 --> 00:22:37.500
 met. And like two weeks later, he was like, uh, it's happening. We've got money. Let's do it. And so we

00:22:37.500 --> 00:22:42.500
 did. And, uh, it was a really successful event that we did last year that was just helping to pour

00:22:42.500 --> 00:22:48.340
 gas on that fire, um, and propel and hopefully just kind of renew the spirit of a lot of these

00:22:48.340 --> 00:22:52.980
 people that are doing that kind of ministry. And it was great. And we loved it. And now we're trying

00:22:52.980 --> 00:22:56.460
 to figure out what does that look like moving forward? And that's, we're talking about how do

00:22:56.460 --> 00:23:01.420
 we launch networks of people that are doing this ministry and how do we, uh, do another event in

00:23:01.420 --> 00:23:07.200
 Texas this year, um, in Marble Falls that will be just helping the church understand what is,

00:23:07.320 --> 00:23:11.900
 what, what is this and how, how can you guys get involved? And so it's been, uh, it's just been

00:23:11.900 --> 00:23:16.780
 a blessing to be able to do my day job and then also volunteer and just be part of all that nerd

00:23:16.780 --> 00:23:21.340
 and part of locks and be in Jade's community and just be hanging out with everyone.

00:23:21.340 --> 00:23:25.500
 You're kind of everywhere, man. It's a little scary. Yeah. Not while I'm working though. Never.

00:23:26.220 --> 00:23:33.020
 Well, yeah. Yeah. No, it's never happened. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Never, never happened. Only in the

00:23:33.020 --> 00:23:38.260
 evenings. I mean, obviously we have a really great group of, of guys. I mean, there are gals in the

00:23:38.260 --> 00:23:44.180
 space, but at the moment, guys around, around the mic who are really in like the bleeding ed,

00:23:44.300 --> 00:23:48.820
 bleeding edge innovation of not just reaching gamers, which is what we've been talking about in this

00:23:48.820 --> 00:23:54.000
 season a lot. It's like e-sports and video games. And like a lot of people understand that, but it,

00:23:54.100 --> 00:23:57.660
 but it is so much larger than that. And the scope is so much larger than that because,

00:23:57.660 --> 00:24:03.680
 because gamers are not singularly like one thing, right? They're multifaceted. And so many people

00:24:03.680 --> 00:24:08.640
 who are gamers are also card carrying nerds in multiple other ways. Right. So they don't just

00:24:08.640 --> 00:24:13.400
 play video games. They're also major board game enthusiasts and lovers. You know, they don't just play

00:24:13.400 --> 00:24:18.800
 video games. They also love anime and they also love Japanese culture. Like, like Jake does.

00:24:18.820 --> 00:24:23.300
 Right. And they also are spiritually beings, spiritual beings that need to be fed, who are

00:24:23.300 --> 00:24:27.600
 interested in the Bible and looking for spiritual journey, like flat cap and Lux and all of us

00:24:27.600 --> 00:24:32.580
 serve them in that capacity. And CPAs and artists and they're in your communities doing all this

00:24:32.580 --> 00:24:38.100
 kind of stuff anyway. Yeah. Normal human beings. Yeah. And you just, well, many, like, and you just

00:24:38.100 --> 00:24:42.420
 don't realize that the engineer that comes to your church on the weekends also plays Dungeons and Dragons

00:24:42.420 --> 00:24:45.960
 a Saturday night before. And that's why he's usually tired when he gets there on Sunday mornings.

00:24:46.100 --> 00:24:52.680
 He shows up. Yeah. He shows up on Friday afternoon. He's your, yeah, your construction manager is also

00:24:52.680 --> 00:24:58.140
 playing World of Warcraft tomorrow night. And like, yep. Yeah. I usually, like, I go to church a lot of

00:24:58.140 --> 00:25:02.340
 times. I, I like fly the nerd flag. If you guys, I'm sure we all do that, right? You put it, like,

00:25:02.340 --> 00:25:07.080
 I put on my Dungeon and Dragon shirt when I show up to a new church and just see which people we

00:25:07.080 --> 00:25:12.160
 silently make the eye contact from across the room. And it's like, uh, oh, we get each other.

00:25:12.160 --> 00:25:23.880
 So here's what I'd love to dive into a little bit because we're all at expo. We have all, except for

00:25:23.880 --> 00:25:27.540
 Jade, unfortunately, because it's like, you get delayed and canceled and he got here. Have been,

00:25:27.540 --> 00:25:31.740
 he's still at expo. He's at expo now and he made it to the pre-con stuff this morning.

00:25:31.740 --> 00:25:37.940
 Well, yeah. Look, I'm reaching right through him. Yeah. We have a bunch of, we have a bunch of clips

00:25:37.940 --> 00:25:42.560
 from Jade's previous episodes. We're just inserting it random into this one. Um, Chad GPT is getting

00:25:42.560 --> 00:25:50.800
 crazy. Yeah. Yeah. So good. So just like open forum. What is the things that you've seen from even

00:25:50.800 --> 00:26:00.520
 pre-con expo that has just been really helpful, eyeopening, encouraging to you? Because I want to see

00:26:00.520 --> 00:26:05.640
 more people who listen to this, who are on the pleading edge, get to this event for a whole

00:26:05.640 --> 00:26:10.060
 bunch of reasons, but I'd love to hear some of the reasons why it's been helpful or encouraging,

00:26:10.720 --> 00:26:15.780
 challenging to you. Yeah. I mean, so for me, we're actually just talking about this at lunch today.

00:26:15.780 --> 00:26:22.440
 It's, it's really interesting to hear people in the room that came looking for something and the thing

00:26:22.440 --> 00:26:28.020
 that they actually got wasn't, it wasn't necessarily different. It wasn't wrong. It was just more.

00:26:28.520 --> 00:26:34.260
 I, well, they were looking for like specific tech answers. Like how do I stream to two spots or how

00:26:34.260 --> 00:26:40.160
 do I do this? Their vision was about this, this wide. And it's like, no, no, no, no. Put that off

00:26:40.160 --> 00:26:44.820
 to the side. We'll figure that out later. That's a YouTube video. How do you, how do you relationally

00:26:44.820 --> 00:26:50.240
 engage people in the spaces where you find them? And so it was good to hear that because I mean,

00:26:50.280 --> 00:26:54.160
 honestly for us, if we're being real, sometimes we can get caught in the weeds of it, right? Like we

00:26:54.160 --> 00:26:58.760
 can't, can't see the, you know, the forest through the trees kind of a deal. And so it's one of those,

00:26:58.900 --> 00:27:03.620
 one of those deals where maybe we're just too close to it, um, that we forget that, Hey, you know,

00:27:03.620 --> 00:27:08.920
 this thing that we actually did X, Y, Z years ago, that's where they're starting. And so, you know,

00:27:08.920 --> 00:27:14.940
 we're light years ahead of that, but how do we back that up in order to train and multiply and do all

00:27:14.940 --> 00:27:21.840
 this stuff? How do we come a couple of parsecs back? See what I did there? I did. It's a star

00:27:21.840 --> 00:27:27.020
 war. It's a star war. That's one of the spots. That's the absolute. Yeah. And R2B. It's a start

00:27:27.020 --> 00:27:31.540
 war. And so how do we, how do we come into that space and be like, Hey, in order for you to get

00:27:31.540 --> 00:27:34.900
 off the ground, because you're going to reach people I don't reach, how do we do that? And so it

00:27:34.900 --> 00:27:39.260
 would literally going back to the pre-conference stuff, it was eyeopening and earopening to hear

00:27:39.260 --> 00:27:44.860
 people go, Hey, I loved it. So what now? Yeah. How do we do that? And it's like, I feel like

00:27:44.860 --> 00:27:50.480
 we've been doing this for a while now. Like it's just, you sometimes forget like where you started

00:27:50.480 --> 00:27:54.440
 from. It sounds stupid. Like just like how hard it wasn't because like at the beginning,

00:27:54.580 --> 00:27:58.720
 get going. Yeah. But, and then you, you think about it, you're like, no, that was tremendously

00:27:58.720 --> 00:28:04.000
 difficult. How long ago? I mean, cause I mean like put numbers on it. Oh, you guys just hit

00:28:04.000 --> 00:28:10.140
 five years on this. That's for LTN and for LoveClan, but probably closer to 12, 15 years

00:28:10.140 --> 00:28:14.060
 ago. Yeah. For game. Yeah. It's been a long, it's been a long while. 12, 12 something. Yep.

00:28:14.320 --> 00:28:20.440
 Which if you, anything you've done, that's like all of school. Oh yeah. Like elementary school.

00:28:20.700 --> 00:28:25.480
 You'd be a kindergartner. So like you're up here talking like, let's talk about like maybe

00:28:25.480 --> 00:28:30.440
 at like a 10th grade level. It's like kindergarten level for some of the, such a long, yeah.

00:28:30.440 --> 00:28:33.880
 So it seems obvious. There is an encouragement to come from all of that though.

00:28:34.000 --> 00:28:37.380
 Uh, you had said that somebody had made the comment drinking from firehomes. That's what

00:28:37.380 --> 00:28:40.440
 it felt like. Right. But then we were talking about it at lunch. And the other thing that

00:28:40.440 --> 00:28:44.820
 came out of it was everybody's doing things a different way. Like there's no, there is

00:28:44.820 --> 00:28:48.720
 no cut and try, you know, and again, there's not a slam on any physical churches. Me being

00:28:48.720 --> 00:28:51.920
 a physical church pastor, three songs and a message ain't going to cut it in the online

00:28:51.920 --> 00:28:56.760
 space. It's just not going to. And so the encouragement is God has made all of us in

00:28:56.760 --> 00:29:00.460
 different spaces. God has given us all different communities and different skills and talents

00:29:00.460 --> 00:29:05.520
 and abilities. If we can figure out a way to get into those, into those little communities,

00:29:05.520 --> 00:29:09.480
 those little pockets, Jeff is big on, I don't want to make a church of 10,000. I want to make

00:29:09.480 --> 00:29:13.840
 a hundred churches of whatever, a hundred churches of a hundred or a thousand churches of 10 or

00:29:13.840 --> 00:29:26.540
 150 churches of 200 churches. Insert logarithmic number here. But, but you see what I'm saying? And

00:29:26.540 --> 00:29:31.040
 so we, we, like I, if I was to set up something digital, it's not going to be the same as Zach or

00:29:31.040 --> 00:29:34.820
 the same as flat cap. It's going to be totally different. And that's cool. Everybody in that

00:29:34.820 --> 00:29:39.800
 room in the pre-conference room is going to do their own thing and influence 50 people.

00:29:39.800 --> 00:29:45.260
 Yep. Well, to piggyback on that, when you think about planting a church in the physical space,

00:29:45.260 --> 00:29:48.940
 you look around at all the churches and you're going to, that's the model I'm trying to copy.

00:29:48.940 --> 00:29:52.140
 Oh, and that's the demo. I mean, right. That's the, that's the one. And Oh, they did it over

00:29:52.140 --> 00:29:57.220
 there. Let's go do what they did, but they all innovated. And when we go to copy it, we miss some

00:29:57.220 --> 00:30:02.420
 of the stuff that they were doing. And I, hopefully those who are, who are there listening to you did

00:30:02.420 --> 00:30:04.800
 it this way, you did it that way. You're doing something else. What are you, what are you even

00:30:04.800 --> 00:30:10.820
 doing? I don't understand what you're doing is yeah, that's okay. Yeah. Not everyone is going

00:30:10.820 --> 00:30:15.500
 to run into the Ethiopian eunuch and say, Oh, you're reading. Let me tell you what you were

00:30:15.500 --> 00:30:19.460
 reading. And then instantly be wished away to go somewhere else and never see the guy again.

00:30:19.460 --> 00:30:24.980
 Sure. In many ways, that's one of the beautiful things about what expo is, is that it's innovation,

00:30:24.980 --> 00:30:29.640
 but it's not just here. It's innovation in every sphere, right? Like in this particular podcast,

00:30:29.640 --> 00:30:34.260
 we have people who are gaming ministry people, but even in our room, it was digital ministry

00:30:34.260 --> 00:30:39.260
 people. And there was another five or six approaches that were talked about in just in pre-con. That's

00:30:39.260 --> 00:30:43.060
 before we get the metaverse track. And that's before we're even touching. And so the really cool thing

00:30:43.060 --> 00:30:47.700
 is in the space of innovation, when there's not a pre-made map, like when there's not a plan that

00:30:47.700 --> 00:30:51.900
 shows, this is how you do it. And this is the standard way to do it. Everyone comes to the problem

00:30:51.900 --> 00:30:57.660
 and they all say, let's, we all come from unique positions and with unique experiences that enable us

00:30:57.660 --> 00:31:02.440
 to do it in a unique way. And that has been really a beautiful and encouraging thing for me here to expose

00:31:02.440 --> 00:31:07.740
 like so many of us caring for the same group of people, caring for the same gospel mission, same commission,

00:31:07.740 --> 00:31:11.140
 and we're taking beautifully unique approaches to that.

00:31:11.280 --> 00:31:15.200
 I feel like in some ways, like it's, it's almost less pressure when you think about it that way.

00:31:15.200 --> 00:31:19.580
 Like you kind of put the standard, like I have to do it this certain way or it's not going to succeed.

00:31:19.580 --> 00:31:24.700
 But like, because we each have our own unique way of doing it, our own unique people that we're trying to reach.

00:31:24.700 --> 00:31:29.280
 I know it's like, we're gaming, but there's, you know, the gamut there, like it's, it's less pressure.

00:31:29.280 --> 00:31:32.520
 Like how best can I reach the people in this area?

00:31:32.520 --> 00:31:38.780
 Yeah. But it doesn't feel like less pressure when cultural norms have said like bigger, you know, butts and budgets, I think, you know,

00:31:38.820 --> 00:31:44.520
 nickels or noses, the more, the more noses I have, the more nickels I'm making, the better my church is or the better my ministry is.

00:31:44.520 --> 00:31:49.080
 Yeah. Or even just how do we know it's a church or how do we know it's ministry or how do we know it's discipleship?

00:31:49.140 --> 00:31:58.700
 How do we, how do we know? How do we know? Right. Well, we can tell you stories. Yeah. And the church isn't used to just saying, tell me a story that they want hard numbers to look at.

00:31:58.800 --> 00:32:08.160
 And I just don't think that's the way things are anymore. What was, what was interesting also was the number of people that are here that are not from North America.

00:32:09.040 --> 00:32:18.380
 That's true. I mean, that was fascinating or, I mean, or that are ministering in North America. Yeah. Yeah. So I just think one of the things that a little being,

00:32:18.700 --> 00:32:23.240
 being outside the fishbowl is, is really encouraging just in this, all of it.

00:32:23.240 --> 00:32:27.120
 As I listened to the general ministry, there's people that are doing Facebook and they're ministering to people all over the world.

00:32:27.180 --> 00:32:30.620
 There's people that are using Twitch, they're using WhatsApp.

00:32:31.040 --> 00:32:40.580
 And it's what I think is beautiful about it is this willingness to say there's people who would rather using stealing your words would rather gamble with the gates of hell than ever darken the doors of a church.

00:32:40.920 --> 00:32:45.100
 And it's this refusal to say, I'm not going to give up on that person just because they're never going to come to church.

00:32:45.260 --> 00:32:50.760
 And so it's great. We need the churches there, but the people that are never going to come, we need to just go to them and love them well.

00:32:51.120 --> 00:32:53.000
 And by whatever means necessary.

00:32:53.460 --> 00:32:56.400
 So that's the thing, right? Is it's beautiful. It's so encouraging to me.

00:32:56.620 --> 00:33:03.140
 I mean, we're talking about a, like each individual ministry or person or whatever, having their own, you know, approach.

00:33:03.260 --> 00:33:06.280
 It's, you know, we talk about it as this bespoke approach, right?

00:33:06.280 --> 00:33:11.640
 Like this handcrafted thing that we use terminology that people are people, they're not projects.

00:33:11.780 --> 00:33:18.160
 Everybody's heard that we go a step further and say pixels are people and meeple are people just kind of contextualize like what it is.

00:33:18.160 --> 00:33:22.780
 And it's basically meeple is a piece and a game board, by the way, if you're listening and you're like, hold on, it's a person.

00:33:22.980 --> 00:33:24.440
 I'm just assuming people are like, it's a person.

00:33:25.980 --> 00:33:28.860
 I'm assuming they're rewinding and trying to hear what the word meeple is.

00:33:30.560 --> 00:33:34.880
 I love about like, you go into any of the streams for anyone in this room.

00:33:35.340 --> 00:33:42.400
 And I think people who aren't used to those environments, they'd go in and they'd hear like Jay talking about someone like, oh, hey, Sam, I'm glad you're here.

00:33:42.480 --> 00:33:45.480
 And that's silly. Why are you talking about what you need to know the person's actual name?

00:33:45.480 --> 00:33:49.200
 Yeah. And it's like, no, that person's that name is just as valid.

00:33:49.200 --> 00:33:52.260
 And you treat it with full sincerity and you respect them.

00:33:52.260 --> 00:33:55.600
 And you realize there's a person behind that name and there's a person behind that message.

00:33:55.600 --> 00:33:56.980
 And I was just talking.

00:33:56.980 --> 00:33:58.280
 And the impact of it is crazy.

00:33:58.500 --> 00:33:59.820
 Black cap dapper pastor.

00:34:00.260 --> 00:34:00.700
 Wow.

00:34:01.560 --> 00:34:03.940
 Because like, yeah.

00:34:04.080 --> 00:34:08.220
 And if you, if you legit like on the, on his, his expo badge, that's what you wrote.

00:34:08.280 --> 00:34:08.400
 Yeah.

00:34:08.760 --> 00:34:13.980
 Because we were having a conversation that you met somebody and I'm going to butcher the story for the sake of the podcast.

00:34:14.320 --> 00:34:17.720
 You, you met somebody and they refused to call you by that.

00:34:17.760 --> 00:34:20.320
 And they immediately in that moment broke the connection.

00:34:20.560 --> 00:34:20.780
 Yeah.

00:34:20.880 --> 00:34:23.080
 Well, they put a barrier off before it started.

00:34:23.220 --> 00:34:24.260
 And that's what we do at times.

00:34:24.340 --> 00:34:28.000
 We put barriers between us and people who are trying to reach with the gospel.

00:34:28.260 --> 00:34:29.680
 So, so I had that on my zoom.

00:34:29.940 --> 00:34:34.060
 So it was a zoom meeting and we were going around and introducing and talking.

00:34:34.160 --> 00:34:35.620
 And I said, Oh, why don't you go next?

00:34:35.760 --> 00:34:38.400
 And he said, well, I'm not going to say your name.

00:34:38.880 --> 00:34:41.240
 And he wouldn't even say flat cap dapper pastor.

00:34:41.240 --> 00:34:42.180
 Do you think it was a curse word or something?

00:34:42.180 --> 00:34:43.880
 No, no, no, no, no, no.

00:34:43.880 --> 00:34:44.700
 He knew it wasn't.

00:34:45.020 --> 00:34:52.180
 He would not acknowledge that I wanted to be recognized by that because I'm in the digital space.

00:34:52.300 --> 00:34:52.460
 Yeah.

00:34:52.680 --> 00:34:52.840
 Yeah.

00:34:53.040 --> 00:34:56.060
 And I prefer to go by that when I'm in the digital space.

00:34:56.060 --> 00:34:58.020
 If I'm not in the digital space, you guys know me often.

00:34:58.260 --> 00:34:58.800
 You know my name.

00:34:58.900 --> 00:34:59.300
 That's great.

00:34:59.380 --> 00:34:59.720
 That's fine.

00:34:59.820 --> 00:35:00.260
 I don't care.

00:35:00.480 --> 00:35:01.260
 It's redacted.

00:35:01.400 --> 00:35:01.980
 It's redacted.

00:35:02.300 --> 00:35:02.380
 Yes.

00:35:04.140 --> 00:35:05.180
 That was my blurring.

00:35:05.340 --> 00:35:07.700
 But the other thing is people butcher that.

00:35:07.900 --> 00:35:09.020
 So it's a whole lot easier.

00:35:09.260 --> 00:35:09.500
 Sure.

00:35:09.500 --> 00:35:11.380
 To just say, this is who I am.

00:35:11.680 --> 00:35:14.860
 And then walk away from a conference like this and go, hey, what was that guy's name?

00:35:14.920 --> 00:35:15.240
 I don't remember.

00:35:15.340 --> 00:35:15.780
 What was his name?

00:35:16.300 --> 00:35:16.540
 Oh, yeah.

00:35:16.560 --> 00:35:17.240
 He was wearing a hat.

00:35:17.960 --> 00:35:25.860
 But when people come into the digital space, even if it's physically to learn about digital space with pre-conference and stuff like that,

00:35:25.880 --> 00:35:32.800
 and even the digital track that DCN is doing, it's one of those deals where you get to, this is their first step in.

00:35:32.860 --> 00:35:34.040
 All they do is church online.

00:35:34.180 --> 00:35:35.980
 We've only streamed our church service.

00:35:36.100 --> 00:35:40.160
 And we're like, man, that's just, that barely counts as what we're talking about.

00:35:40.280 --> 00:35:41.440
 It doesn't not count.

00:35:41.820 --> 00:35:42.700
 Let's not discredit it.

00:35:42.840 --> 00:35:44.060
 But it barely counts.

00:35:44.140 --> 00:35:49.720
 And once we get over the threshold of that, you're going to meet people that aren't Miss Opal, right?

00:35:49.840 --> 00:35:55.500
 You're going to meet Flat Cap Dapper Pastor and, you know, Xenoblade 29 and like all these people.

00:35:55.820 --> 00:35:55.900
 Yeah.

00:35:56.000 --> 00:35:56.220
 Right?

00:35:56.440 --> 00:35:56.560
 Yeah.

00:35:56.620 --> 00:35:57.560
 28 was decent.

00:35:57.640 --> 00:35:58.520
 29 really made it.

00:35:58.900 --> 00:36:02.860
 But you're going to meet these people that are, they have real human experiences.

00:36:03.140 --> 00:36:07.260
 And so I think that that's where, like, we don't, we talk about 15 years in this ministry.

00:36:07.580 --> 00:36:08.800
 We don't have it figured out.

00:36:09.260 --> 00:36:15.100
 Pastors who have been on the mission field or wherever for that long and longer, they're like, we're still learning that culture.

00:36:15.200 --> 00:36:19.300
 We're still understanding how that works and what makes them tick.

00:36:20.000 --> 00:36:25.480
 And so I think it's good for us to come in and just share the things that we know without being the smartest people in the room.

00:36:25.740 --> 00:36:35.960
 And not to make them do what you're doing, but just to help people blow open all those categories and say, this is the way that we're, this is the wall that we chose to break down to get to that person over there that was never going to be able to come in.

00:36:36.060 --> 00:36:36.340
 Oh, yeah.

00:36:36.580 --> 00:36:39.160
 And the wall you break down is probably going to be completely different.

00:36:39.300 --> 00:36:40.540
 Yours might be the jujitsu ministry.

00:36:40.700 --> 00:36:41.360
 I don't know.

00:36:41.720 --> 00:36:44.600
 But let us help you blow open all those categories.

00:36:44.600 --> 00:36:48.160
 Hold on, let's put a pin in that because we've said jujitsu ministry twice and they have no clue.

00:36:48.160 --> 00:36:54.600
 So the quick story is we walked up here to, we walked up here to, yeah, we're in an, yeah, let's, let's take a tour.

00:36:56.080 --> 00:37:00.860
 We're in an upstairs area in one of the kids areas and there's a giant room out there.

00:37:00.920 --> 00:37:07.240
 We walked into Scott out the studio space this morning and they were legit having a jujitsu ministry talk through.

00:37:07.480 --> 00:37:08.380
 And it was jujitsu.

00:37:08.500 --> 00:37:08.680
 Yeah.

00:37:08.740 --> 00:37:09.900
 Jesus and Kung Fu or whatever.

00:37:10.120 --> 00:37:13.060
 The guy that was talking had a shirt on that said Jesus and violence.

00:37:13.140 --> 00:37:13.360
 Yeah.

00:37:15.360 --> 00:37:17.720
 It looked like MMA pictures up on the screen.

00:37:17.800 --> 00:37:19.500
 He was like, this is so cool.

00:37:19.980 --> 00:37:23.000
 And my first thought was I have a friend who would love this.

00:37:23.000 --> 00:37:24.020
 Yeah, dude, it was awesome.

00:37:24.460 --> 00:37:25.420
 Is your friend Conor McGregor?

00:37:25.740 --> 00:37:26.340
 It is not.

00:37:26.820 --> 00:37:27.920
 I'm close.

00:37:28.880 --> 00:37:30.000
 Is your friend Conor McGregor?

00:37:30.340 --> 00:37:31.320
 Well, I think overall.

00:37:31.320 --> 00:37:32.220
 I mean, I've met him, yeah.

00:37:32.320 --> 00:37:34.240
 I want to talk about it in his graphics.

00:37:34.600 --> 00:37:39.540
 I want to talk about what we're just genuinely excited about in what we see coming in this next season.

00:37:39.540 --> 00:37:43.980
 Because we do have a lot of people whose life is tied up into this thing, right?

00:37:44.020 --> 00:37:46.480
 Many of our lives are tied up to this somehow, right?

00:37:46.480 --> 00:37:50.920
 We're living and breathing it daily, whether we're doing it full-time or part-time.

00:37:51.460 --> 00:38:04.920
 I think that in the end of the day, one of the things that I think we've all experienced was it's the innovation, but it's also just people trying to embolden the hearts of folks who come to Expo to say, love people that aren't loved.

00:38:04.920 --> 00:38:07.800
 Find ways to get to people that aren't reached.

00:38:08.320 --> 00:38:11.140
 Like, we're not telling you what to do.

00:38:11.280 --> 00:38:18.820
 We're asking you to ignite your heart for people whom Jesus loves and no one is trying to get to.

00:38:19.420 --> 00:38:23.020
 And that's just what I've seen in everything, right?

00:38:23.080 --> 00:38:24.080
 And that's really cool.

00:38:24.200 --> 00:38:28.600
 But let's talk a little bit about our area, what really ignites our hearts.

00:38:28.600 --> 00:38:34.560
 And it's for, you know, not just digital ministry and digital discipleship, but also for people inside of this nerding gaming culture.

00:38:34.740 --> 00:38:37.560
 What are we genuinely excited about seeing?

00:38:37.700 --> 00:38:52.160
 Because I really think that we're coming towards the precipice of a lot of very exciting things in terms of the church looking to game culture and looking to nerd culture and acknowledging, not only acknowledging its existence,

00:38:52.280 --> 00:38:58.240
 but also not seeing it as a thing to be outcasted and ostracized, but to engage with and to care for.

00:38:58.600 --> 00:39:01.440
 3.2 billion people in the world are gamers.

00:39:01.800 --> 00:39:02.580
 Like, it's their gamers.

00:39:02.720 --> 00:39:05.140
 Like, that's most people probably in your church.

00:39:05.460 --> 00:39:05.640
 Yeah.

00:39:05.980 --> 00:39:09.360
 Roughly a billion more people than there are Christians on the planet, just for the record.

00:39:09.440 --> 00:39:10.640
 That's a 2020 stat.

00:39:10.760 --> 00:39:11.060
 Yeah.

00:39:12.320 --> 00:39:13.500
 We're a little bit behind on that.

00:39:13.860 --> 00:39:15.540
 We all doubled in 2020, right?

00:39:15.580 --> 00:39:16.180
 During the blip.

00:39:17.460 --> 00:39:17.920
 The blip?

00:39:18.100 --> 00:39:18.320
 Yeah.

00:39:19.320 --> 00:39:22.000
 I was excited about probably Zelda.

00:39:22.520 --> 00:39:22.920
 Yeah.

00:39:23.180 --> 00:39:24.600
 Oh, Tears of the Kingdom.

00:39:24.800 --> 00:39:25.180
 Let's go.

00:39:25.480 --> 00:39:26.240
 Yes, please.

00:39:26.480 --> 00:39:26.880
 Eventually.

00:39:27.360 --> 00:39:34.940
 I would say, like, I mean, outside of actual games that are coming out, like, the thing that I get the most excited about is that aha moment.

00:39:35.380 --> 00:39:37.320
 Like, when people get it, when you see it click.

00:39:37.780 --> 00:39:41.280
 And honestly, like, if anybody's, like, wondering, man, how do I convey this stuff?

00:39:41.300 --> 00:39:42.540
 I don't know the lingo.

00:39:43.180 --> 00:39:45.440
 We'll just give you the websites for the stats.

00:39:45.600 --> 00:39:55.100
 Like, stats speak to hear these things about 3.2 billion gamers, and 48% are women, and, you know, here's the people that actually prefer to play games that are not shooters.

00:39:55.460 --> 00:39:56.860
 It's higher than people that do play shooters.

00:39:56.920 --> 00:39:57.560
 Because that's, like...

00:39:57.560 --> 00:39:59.180
 Most gamers are, like, mid-30s.

00:39:59.260 --> 00:39:59.660
 Yeah, exactly.

00:39:59.800 --> 00:40:04.580
 35 years old is the average age for a gamer these days, I guess, as of 2020.

00:40:04.940 --> 00:40:09.120
 So, like, we have, like, all these stats, and churches get that.

00:40:09.200 --> 00:40:13.780
 They understand that because they track things like baptisms and givers and stuff like that.

00:40:13.980 --> 00:40:20.580
 And that's how they communicate internally and externally with, you know, associations and conventions and stuff like that.

00:40:20.860 --> 00:40:29.000
 So, being able to just get out there and say, hey, the numbers are saying that the people are actually in your congregation already.

00:40:29.120 --> 00:40:35.080
 They just don't feel comfortable because, at best, it's marginalized, and at worst, it's demonized.

00:40:35.180 --> 00:40:38.400
 You tell them or they have heard that they're going to hell for what they like.

00:40:38.780 --> 00:40:45.340
 And so, once you're able to turn that, I was able to sit down with about 15 pastors last week and watch them go, what?

00:40:46.280 --> 00:40:46.940
 No way.

00:40:47.720 --> 00:40:48.080
 Yes.

00:40:48.720 --> 00:40:48.920
 Surprise!

00:40:49.280 --> 00:40:49.460
 Yeah.

00:40:49.960 --> 00:41:01.120
 Literally had a pastor that was sitting right there, and he was telling me, my son is meeting people for a rehearsal dinner, for a wedding, for a Destiny 2 rating party.

00:41:01.240 --> 00:41:01.440
 Awesome.

00:41:01.440 --> 00:41:04.560
 And I'm like, I was like, that's really cool.

00:41:04.760 --> 00:41:06.780
 I wasn't floored because that's the story of a thousand times.

00:41:06.780 --> 00:41:07.580
 Also kind of normal.

00:41:07.780 --> 00:41:08.520
 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:41:08.780 --> 00:41:10.760
 For him, he's like, I didn't even know.

00:41:10.840 --> 00:41:14.240
 And so, he shared that with the other pastors, and they're like, how in the world?

00:41:14.300 --> 00:41:16.740
 I'm like, because this creates community.

00:41:17.320 --> 00:41:24.040
 But we have to understand, and once they get it, the aha moment is then, hey, pastor, now I need you to go start a gaming ministry.

00:41:24.180 --> 00:41:24.980
 It's, man, no, no, no, no, no.

00:41:25.300 --> 00:41:33.660
 Let me talk to my buds, and we'll figure out a way to equip and empower and encourage your people who are in the space already to be sourced and activated.

00:41:34.660 --> 00:41:36.500
 There's something interesting with that, too.

00:41:36.500 --> 00:41:41.840
 A lot of, so being in the physical space, you get a lot of pastors that are like doing a flat cap set.

00:41:42.020 --> 00:41:42.540
 That's working.

00:41:42.620 --> 00:41:43.280
 Let's go copy it.

00:41:43.500 --> 00:41:43.580
 Yeah.

00:41:43.680 --> 00:41:52.200
 And it's like, it goes back to the thing that I'm very excited about is God, I think, is releasing his spirit onto all different smaller communities.

00:41:52.520 --> 00:42:02.740
 Like, I feel like the entire church organization of like, hey, we're going to be mega churches, we're going to do this whole thing, is starting to splinter more and more and more, because people are realizing that they can niche down and find community.

00:42:02.980 --> 00:42:04.680
 And there's that word again, community and engagement.

00:42:04.880 --> 00:42:04.960
 Sure.

00:42:06.180 --> 00:42:12.300
 In places that get them, that, you know, can identify with them quicker, and you can be on a level playing field.

00:42:12.380 --> 00:42:14.960
 I can say words like asynchronous and, you know, things like that.

00:42:14.980 --> 00:42:16.360
 And you guys immediately know what I'm talking about.

00:42:16.480 --> 00:42:21.120
 But if I talk about that to somebody else, they go, literally, like last night at dinner, like, wait, wait, what do you mean by that?

00:42:21.160 --> 00:42:23.540
 And so I'm having to explain it, which is fine, that's all good.

00:42:24.020 --> 00:42:32.380
 But our job then as believers and our job as leaders and ministry leaders is to be in those pockets of people, but to minister into those pockets of people.

00:42:32.540 --> 00:42:41.160
 And not to throw a Bible at them and not to be heavy-handed and not to do it, but to love them, to support them, to allow them to vent their frustrations and their angers and their regrets and all those other things.

00:42:41.160 --> 00:42:44.800
 And then to show them that Jesus has superseded all of that in our small pockets.

00:42:45.460 --> 00:42:51.900
 This is the first year I've been to Expo, three, two, three years, plus I did one in, like, Tennessee a couple years ago or last year or something.

00:42:52.240 --> 00:42:53.460
 This is the first time I've felt that.

00:42:53.680 --> 00:43:00.540
 This is the first time I've felt like things were starting to slowly kind of coagulate in different areas, and that is very cool.

00:43:00.820 --> 00:43:02.140
 Like, that's something I haven't seen before.

00:43:02.440 --> 00:43:08.500
 I think one of the things that I get most excited about is the combination of both what's happening in this space and the physical church, right?

00:43:08.600 --> 00:43:13.920
 Because when pastors get those aha moments, what God has already done is paved and prepared the road, right?

00:43:13.920 --> 00:43:20.480
 It would be like a pastor coming and saying to his church, listen, church family, I really feel like God has just opened my eyes to there's a mission field in Iraq.

00:43:20.700 --> 00:43:23.760
 And then there's two dozen people who raised their hand and were like, hey, we speak Urdu.

00:43:24.860 --> 00:43:27.080
 And he's like, I had no idea we had Urdu speakers here.

00:43:27.220 --> 00:43:29.320
 Like, we're prepared and ready to go to Iraq.

00:43:29.560 --> 00:43:33.460
 And it's like there's a whole world out there that most pastors don't know about.

00:43:33.540 --> 00:43:42.420
 It's I, the gaming community, in a digital space, and they're going to be able to, like, get to their church and be like, I don't know how we're supposed to do this, but I feel like we're supposed to go into this world and reach people.

00:43:42.680 --> 00:43:51.520
 And there's two dozen people who are in their church, and they're saying, my language that I speak and the gifts and the abilities that I have have gone completely unused because I had no clue how to plug them into the church.

00:43:51.660 --> 00:43:55.820
 And I will literally be lit on fire for this opportunity.

00:43:56.180 --> 00:43:57.320
 Like, light me up.

00:43:57.400 --> 00:43:58.380
 I'm ready to go.

00:43:58.500 --> 00:44:03.220
 Can I meet my love for Christ and meet it with my passions that have been given in my life?

00:44:03.340 --> 00:44:09.500
 And you're actually going to recognize them as God-given passions instead of chastising them as a waste of time.

00:44:10.080 --> 00:44:14.060
 And to see that happen, it doesn't just make me excited for churches, guys.

00:44:14.060 --> 00:44:23.820
 It makes me excited for my nerd brothers and sisters who are sitting in congregations and feel like this whole other portion of their life has no place inside their faith, which just isn't true.

00:44:23.920 --> 00:44:25.040
 And I love that.

00:44:25.080 --> 00:44:25.760
 That gets me very excited.

00:44:25.760 --> 00:44:28.980
 Or who got driven out of congregations because they were feeling ostracized.

00:44:29.040 --> 00:44:29.360
 Oh, yeah.

00:44:29.400 --> 00:44:33.860
 Like, so many people at Lux, they got driven out because they played D&D or because they played video games.

00:44:33.860 --> 00:44:36.080
 And it was just like, yeah, you don't really have a place in our church.

00:44:36.120 --> 00:44:37.380
 And also, you make us terribly uncomfortable.

00:44:37.380 --> 00:44:38.160
 No, humans are evil.

00:44:38.420 --> 00:44:39.400
 Yeah, yeah, exactly.

00:44:39.400 --> 00:44:46.840
 What's really interesting is when I was talking with those pastors, D&D came up because it just always does, right?

00:44:46.880 --> 00:44:48.680
 It's a really easy, hot button issue.

00:44:49.320 --> 00:44:53.200
 And they were like, oh, man, I can't believe why do people think that this is so bad?

00:44:53.260 --> 00:44:54.420
 Like, they were saying that to me.

00:44:54.540 --> 00:44:59.480
 And I was like, do you know what the number one hindrance is from like a D&D group starting at your church?

00:44:59.520 --> 00:45:00.280
 And they're like, what is it?

00:45:00.280 --> 00:45:01.640
 And I was like, it's you guys.

00:45:02.220 --> 00:45:04.500
 And it's not because you guys don't want it.

00:45:04.520 --> 00:45:06.060
 It's the stigma that's on everything.

00:45:06.060 --> 00:45:08.000
 So perception is reality.

00:45:08.320 --> 00:45:11.940
 And if you want something to become different, you have to change culture.

00:45:12.220 --> 00:45:16.200
 And sometimes that means a little bit of representation goes a long way, right?

00:45:16.380 --> 00:45:18.900
 And so if you play D&D, don't hide it.

00:45:18.960 --> 00:45:30.620
 A lot of us were closet nerds for a very long time in our church communities because we felt like we would be ostracized or laughed at or whatever because that's how high school was or whatever, you know.

00:45:30.780 --> 00:45:43.240
 But to be able to know now that, man, again, statistics are just blowing my mind that the top out of the top 10 movies of all time grossing, eight of them are nerd movies, nerd culture movies.

00:45:43.240 --> 00:45:46.840
 And you would argue, some of you would argue that nine of them are because Lion King's on the list.

00:45:46.960 --> 00:45:48.480
 And you guys think that that counts.

00:45:49.420 --> 00:45:50.900
 I guess if you cry hard enough, it'll work.

00:45:51.220 --> 00:45:58.940
 But, you know, I mean, it's literally the only two that I would say that are in that top 10 that are not like nerdy movies is Titanic and Lion King.

00:45:59.040 --> 00:46:01.400
 Everything else is either a Marvel movie or a Jurassic World.

00:46:01.400 --> 00:46:05.600
 Avatar or some sci-fi, Star Wars, something like that.

00:46:05.740 --> 00:46:05.900
 Yeah.

00:46:06.160 --> 00:46:07.320
 And I'll follow that up.

00:46:07.380 --> 00:46:09.160
 I know we have to close up the podcast here.

00:46:09.460 --> 00:46:14.820
 I think all of us are excited about the future because we see things lining up.

00:46:14.980 --> 00:46:25.080
 And if you're listening to the show and you'll hear Jeff and I both say this throughout the show is if you're a keep listening and reach out to us in the digital church network.

00:46:25.080 --> 00:46:30.980
 If you're like, my heart's being moved towards this and I do have people in my church and I want to see us start doing this.

00:46:31.300 --> 00:46:31.700
 Like reach out.

00:46:31.780 --> 00:46:40.400
 Flat Cap Dapper Pastor is doing stuff in the network right now to help connect you to people and help you begin and start this journey.

00:46:40.680 --> 00:46:42.060
 Like, A, get plugged into that.

00:46:42.500 --> 00:46:47.580
 B, like reach out to some of the people who are in the space that you're going to hear throughout the course of the season.

00:46:47.780 --> 00:46:48.180
 Right.

00:46:48.180 --> 00:46:58.300
 But, like, even on this show, like reach out to Jate, reach out to Love Thy Nerd and say, listen, we don't know exactly what you're doing, but we know it's important.

00:46:58.840 --> 00:47:01.120
 We don't know how to do it, but we know it's important.

00:47:01.480 --> 00:47:02.300
 How can we help?

00:47:02.380 --> 00:47:06.460
 And some of that might be help with being like, hey, we actually have ways that you can literally serve and help.

00:47:06.800 --> 00:47:16.500
 And some of it might be like you'll be able to get behind some of these ministries financially because one of the biggest obstacles that we're learning about in nerd culture ministry and gamer ministry is that it's just under-resourced.

00:47:16.500 --> 00:47:20.360
 It's not that it's not valid, it's not that it's not powerful, and it's not that it's not needed.

00:47:20.860 --> 00:47:23.500
 It's pioneers are frequently under-resourced, right?

00:47:23.540 --> 00:47:29.220
 We get, like, we get our Conestoga wagon, we fill it with half the supplies that we need, and we head to the gold rush.

00:47:29.320 --> 00:47:30.200
 And try to fjord the river.

00:47:30.360 --> 00:47:30.620
 Yeah.

00:47:30.860 --> 00:47:31.360
 And then it falls over.

00:47:31.480 --> 00:47:31.720
 Yeah.

00:47:31.920 --> 00:47:32.700
 And then you can call it.

00:47:32.740 --> 00:47:37.000
 Yeah, and if you've played Oregon Trail, you know that a lot of us die of dysentery.

00:47:37.300 --> 00:47:38.520
 And so we would...

00:47:38.520 --> 00:47:39.200
 We're out of six, man.

00:47:39.680 --> 00:47:42.500
 Yes, we would love to not do that.

00:47:42.500 --> 00:47:49.320
 And so, like, would you come alongside of some of this group and just partner with us, pray for us?

00:47:50.100 --> 00:47:52.620
 Let us consult with you if you're like, I don't know how to do this.

00:47:52.700 --> 00:47:57.820
 Well, just any of us, I think, would gladly take a phone call and say, let us give you advice on how to do this in your church.

00:47:57.960 --> 00:48:00.180
 Well, and also, listen to your crazy thought.

00:48:00.860 --> 00:48:01.880
 Listen to your crazy thought.

00:48:02.040 --> 00:48:05.980
 Because church and a bar probably started like a crazy thought.

00:48:06.340 --> 00:48:07.440
 Joey said, I was crushing it.

00:48:07.600 --> 00:48:07.720
 Yeah.

00:48:08.380 --> 00:48:08.600
 Yeah.

00:48:08.660 --> 00:48:11.000
 Barbecue church started as a crazy idea.

00:48:11.080 --> 00:48:12.780
 I love barbecue, but I can't do that for...

00:48:12.780 --> 00:48:19.180
 Well, I also, back in the day, before I went to seminary, when I was in college, I loved doing drama.

00:48:19.420 --> 00:48:21.700
 And I thought, I'm never going to do that for a living.

00:48:21.920 --> 00:48:23.040
 I'm not good looking enough.

00:48:23.080 --> 00:48:26.120
 And Danny DeVito already has the market on short, stocky guys.

00:48:26.340 --> 00:48:27.260
 So I'm out.

00:48:27.560 --> 00:48:31.180
 And then my church said, hey, we want to do drama ministry.

00:48:31.300 --> 00:48:32.080
 We need someone to do that.

00:48:32.140 --> 00:48:33.600
 And I went, you mean that thing I love doing?

00:48:33.940 --> 00:48:34.960
 I could do that for Jesus?

00:48:36.120 --> 00:48:42.740
 Just on that, that's like my favorite verse of Ephesians 2.10, where it's workmanship created in Christ Jesus to do good works.

00:48:42.800 --> 00:48:44.280
 He prepared in advance for us to walk in.

00:48:44.420 --> 00:48:54.560
 And prepared in advance, I think, a lot of times is what gets missed, is that the thing that you're probably called to do is probably not something that's super wildly different.

00:48:54.560 --> 00:48:58.880
 Like, oh, let's go to Africa and just like have no resources.

00:48:58.880 --> 00:49:02.160
 But, you know, we're going to like drink off the water in the river and like whatever.

00:49:02.460 --> 00:49:03.700
 It's like more likely.

00:49:03.900 --> 00:49:04.300
 Yeah.

00:49:04.460 --> 00:49:05.880
 Just stay strong with you.

00:49:06.080 --> 00:49:07.200
 More likely.

00:49:07.860 --> 00:49:13.780
 It's probably that thing that, like you're saying, that was like, I really want to do this thing.

00:49:13.800 --> 00:49:15.080
 And I feel called to do it.

00:49:15.080 --> 00:49:17.840
 Like it's something that is something really deep and personal to me.

00:49:18.080 --> 00:49:22.960
 But I just don't think I can do it because of failures or whatever that thing is.

00:49:23.600 --> 00:49:26.080
 And I think that a lot of the times that's that.

00:49:26.160 --> 00:49:37.400
 And that's why there's so many people that are so ready for this kind of ministry, because they're like, this is the people that I already feel called to is the people that I that are like my people.

00:49:37.600 --> 00:49:46.640
 And to see that, like, I felt like I was under appreciated and under, you know, just represented really in the church.

00:49:46.680 --> 00:49:52.160
 And then to now be that and then to see other people not feeling that because you're providing it for them.

00:49:52.240 --> 00:49:52.440
 Yeah.

00:49:52.560 --> 00:49:54.320
 Like it just feels so good.

00:49:54.320 --> 00:49:59.680
 And you were saying earlier about like people not, you know, recognizing your name and stuff.

00:49:59.700 --> 00:50:02.820
 And was thinking about like Alice is the first one else.

00:50:02.980 --> 00:50:04.280
 And Alice in the palace.

00:50:04.400 --> 00:50:04.540
 Right.

00:50:04.580 --> 00:50:05.620
 And it's like, what's this name?

00:50:05.680 --> 00:50:09.140
 But when I first met her, it was future queen of hell.

00:50:09.760 --> 00:50:13.520
 And so when we talk about like, I had to say like, hey, how's it going, queen?

00:50:13.680 --> 00:50:18.880
 You know, like, I can't say most of the other things in here, you know, like, I'm like, you know, I miss hell.

00:50:19.100 --> 00:50:22.380
 Like, so, yeah, it's to me, you know, yeah.

00:50:22.760 --> 00:50:29.400
 And so it is like at the beginning, I even thought like, yeah, this person's probably a troll, like probably here to just cause trouble.

00:50:29.460 --> 00:50:39.980
 And we talked about that in some of the other things, you know, it's like, it's just a and I would go even further and say accepting people that don't have a camera in VR.

00:50:40.480 --> 00:50:42.220
 Like, this person's a bowl of ramen.

00:50:42.580 --> 00:50:45.500
 Like, let's have a good conversation about God to a bowl of ramen.

00:50:46.400 --> 00:50:46.900
 And nutritious.

00:50:47.280 --> 00:50:54.420
 It's just, it's a very different, I think people are not, they're in such a like, they're not seeing them as like, I don't think digital really counts.

00:50:54.860 --> 00:50:59.380
 Oh boy, it's going to be really hard for you when you realize that the bowl of ramen is the person that I'm talking about.

00:51:00.560 --> 00:51:03.620
 Because like, that conversation was what that person needed.

00:51:03.720 --> 00:51:07.200
 And we just know there's a person behind the avatar and that that person has a soul.

00:51:08.020 --> 00:51:08.200
 Yeah.

00:51:08.340 --> 00:51:13.100
 Or even, even like last week, I had someone from Australia that was in my chat.

00:51:13.100 --> 00:51:21.940
 And then like halfway through the conversation, and they've been typing kind of fuzzy, all the whole conversation goes, hey, confession time, I'm drunk.

00:51:22.120 --> 00:51:22.260
 Right.

00:51:22.900 --> 00:51:23.420
 I'm like, great.

00:51:23.980 --> 00:51:24.300
 That's okay.

00:51:24.520 --> 00:51:24.920
 Glad you're here.

00:51:24.980 --> 00:51:27.980
 Glad you were here and not somewhere else doing something else.

00:51:28.060 --> 00:51:28.940
 You're welcome to stay.

00:51:29.380 --> 00:51:31.040
 And they came back the rest of the week.

00:51:31.260 --> 00:51:31.660
 Yeah.

00:51:31.880 --> 00:51:32.540
 So cool.

00:51:32.880 --> 00:51:34.120
 They show up to church drunk.

00:51:34.800 --> 00:51:35.820
 You got a problem.

00:51:36.000 --> 00:51:36.280
 Yeah.

00:51:36.380 --> 00:51:38.840
 And you have people swarming them to do whatever they need to.

00:51:39.520 --> 00:51:41.720
 And there's no ministry happening to the person in church, man.

00:51:41.860 --> 00:51:42.300
 Like it's.

00:51:42.680 --> 00:51:46.240
 There was a long time that every team meeting, one of my team members showed up without a shirt on.

00:51:46.700 --> 00:51:48.020
 And that was, it was a dude.

00:51:48.120 --> 00:51:49.100
 It was like a big, big dude.

00:51:49.180 --> 00:51:49.780
 And I love him.

00:51:49.860 --> 00:51:51.220
 I love, I love Salty to death.

00:51:51.340 --> 00:51:52.940
 Yeah, it was at Lux.

00:51:52.940 --> 00:51:54.660
 Yeah, not physical church.

00:51:54.820 --> 00:51:55.340
 It was at Lux.

00:51:55.340 --> 00:51:55.980
 But I was like.

00:51:56.000 --> 00:51:56.640
 I don't live in Pittsburgh.

00:51:56.640 --> 00:52:01.020
 I was like, yeah, this dude, this dude's going to have a hard time serving on a team at a physical church probably.

00:52:01.340 --> 00:52:03.320
 Like he might have a hard time fitting in.

00:52:03.840 --> 00:52:07.660
 But, you know, there's been people who found homes in our communities and they come to us.

00:52:07.720 --> 00:52:11.760
 I say all the time, people come to us without age, gender, name, or disability, right?

00:52:11.780 --> 00:52:16.080
 They come to us and we get to learn who they are based off the ways they interact with us.

00:52:16.140 --> 00:52:23.980
 And we get to learn to love them before, you know, you see them walking across the parking lot and you make judgments about them before they ever enter your door.

00:52:23.980 --> 00:52:32.160
 And there's a lot of people that never feel welcome in our buildings because before they got through the front doors of the church, we've made judgments about them.

00:52:32.180 --> 00:52:34.760
 And that just doesn't happen in the digital space in the same way.

00:52:35.020 --> 00:52:38.020
 We actually get the opportunity to interact with people in a really powerful way.

00:52:38.320 --> 00:52:40.580
 And there's been lots of people that I was just surprised afterwards.

00:52:40.680 --> 00:52:41.780
 It's like, oh, you're a dude.

00:52:41.880 --> 00:52:44.900
 Like I actually didn't know that, right?

00:52:45.300 --> 00:52:46.520
 And that's okay.

00:52:47.060 --> 00:52:50.840
 Like it hasn't changed the way I've cared about you or anything like that.

00:52:50.920 --> 00:52:52.300
 Now we're building a deeper relationship.

00:52:52.400 --> 00:52:53.260
 I didn't know your name.

00:52:53.580 --> 00:52:56.860
 And some people, it's taken six months for them to share their real name with us.

00:52:57.280 --> 00:53:01.940
 And there are so many people in my church now who I know their real name and I don't use it.

00:53:02.200 --> 00:53:03.320
 It's not that I don't know it.

00:53:03.600 --> 00:53:09.460
 I remember I messaged my Discord admin once and I sent him a DM by his real name and he said, oh man, I'm in trouble, aren't I?

00:53:11.360 --> 00:53:13.580
 I was like, no, man, sorry.

00:53:14.020 --> 00:53:23.700
 Yeah, because we just are so very much so used to the fact that we are accepted by screen names that we use, by the identities that we have inside of the space.

00:53:23.960 --> 00:53:37.780
 And at the same time, digital space, so alarmingly more honest, transparent, and open than what I've had, being able to see people's physical visages and know their face in the clothes that they had on in physical space.

00:53:37.860 --> 00:53:38.960
 Which is really cool.

00:53:39.020 --> 00:53:42.820
 I mean, 100% of the time, it is not a percent lower.

00:53:43.340 --> 00:53:49.500
 100% of the time, if you put the time, the energy, and the effort into the relationship, there is that relational payoff at the end.

00:53:49.700 --> 00:53:52.800
 And the relational payoff is not acceptance in Jesus.

00:53:52.800 --> 00:54:09.420
 The relational payoff is them being vulnerable and opening up because they're not accepted in other spaces of their life, but they have found a space with you who is able to shatter preconceived notions, let alone change them, that they have with what the church is because of what they see in the media.

00:54:09.700 --> 00:54:16.440
 And so those moments of vulnerability and intimacy is what relationship is born out of.

00:54:16.640 --> 00:54:18.860
 The moment we fake it, we lose it.

00:54:18.860 --> 00:54:25.320
 And I think part of what's beautiful about it is, I know when you guys talk about nerds, you try to help open that category up for people.

00:54:25.540 --> 00:54:25.600
 Yeah.

00:54:25.960 --> 00:54:35.260
 And I don't know if you'd use this language, but part of it is this idea that, like, almost everyone has, maybe everyone has something that, like, when they start talking about it, you just see their eyes light.

00:54:35.260 --> 00:54:35.440
 Oh, yeah.

00:54:35.600 --> 00:54:36.220
 Oh, yeah, man.

00:54:36.220 --> 00:54:38.020
 And just as a person, they just get more animated.

00:54:38.740 --> 00:54:41.620
 And sometimes that person starts to talk about that.

00:54:42.300 --> 00:54:46.420
 And immediately they notice everyone else's eyes go dim, right?

00:54:46.640 --> 00:54:46.800
 Yeah.

00:54:46.820 --> 00:54:47.640
 And they're like, I should.

00:54:47.960 --> 00:54:48.540
 That's how you know.

00:54:48.600 --> 00:54:50.680
 Let me dial it back in, right?

00:54:50.900 --> 00:54:54.860
 And so when someone gets to have that moment where someone says, what do you think about this?

00:54:54.880 --> 00:54:56.780
 And their eyes light up and they say, you want me to talk about that?

00:54:56.820 --> 00:54:58.180
 And they're like, go for it.

00:54:58.180 --> 00:54:59.400
 I would love nothing more.

00:54:59.900 --> 00:55:02.640
 All of a sudden, that person is, like, sweet.

00:55:02.840 --> 00:55:04.140
 And so you start there.

00:55:04.300 --> 00:55:05.820
 You start with what lights that person's eyes up.

00:55:06.240 --> 00:55:08.460
 And you develop an authentic interest in it.

00:55:08.840 --> 00:55:10.720
 If you have the same interest, right?

00:55:10.760 --> 00:55:11.400
 We're both gamers.

00:55:11.520 --> 00:55:12.180
 Let's get into that.

00:55:12.440 --> 00:55:13.620
 Or just tell me about it.

00:55:13.620 --> 00:55:14.000
 I want to learn.

00:55:14.080 --> 00:55:14.840
 I have authentic interest.

00:55:14.960 --> 00:55:18.160
 Well, I mean, how often do you hear somebody or see somebody, right?

00:55:18.220 --> 00:55:20.280
 They'll be like, oh, you were in a Cowboys jersey?

00:55:20.880 --> 00:55:21.600
 You're a Cowboys fan?

00:55:21.640 --> 00:55:22.860
 Yes, that happens all the time.

00:55:23.040 --> 00:55:29.180
 So it's a willingness to start there and then lead into, if you start there, it's way easier

00:55:29.180 --> 00:55:32.900
 to then lead into, let me show you some of the things I'm passionate about as well.

00:55:33.340 --> 00:55:36.440
 Rather than, I could not care less about the things that spark your interest.

00:55:36.600 --> 00:55:37.320
 Let me tell you about Jesus.

00:55:37.320 --> 00:55:43.900
 Well, on the flight here, there was a little kid who was four going on five states.

00:55:44.000 --> 00:55:44.420
 It's his birthday.

00:55:45.100 --> 00:55:45.640
 Happy birthday.

00:55:45.680 --> 00:55:46.080
 Happy birthday.

00:55:46.260 --> 00:55:46.600
 Hi.

00:55:46.740 --> 00:55:46.880
 Hi.

00:55:46.880 --> 00:55:47.540
 Happy birthday.

00:55:47.540 --> 00:55:47.900
 Steven.

00:55:49.260 --> 00:55:49.620
 Luca.

00:55:49.980 --> 00:55:50.260
 Luca.

00:55:50.260 --> 00:55:50.940
 Happy birthday, Luca.

00:55:51.340 --> 00:55:51.920
 Great name.

00:55:52.020 --> 00:55:57.520
 But he was, his mom was there and she was freaking out about all this different stuff.

00:55:57.620 --> 00:56:03.620
 But she had him like on the iPad for a while, but then he put the iPad away and he wasn't

00:56:03.620 --> 00:56:04.460
 happy about it.

00:56:04.600 --> 00:56:09.420
 And she was like, it was all this stuff, but she just kept kind of being like dismissive

00:56:09.420 --> 00:56:10.300
 of a bunch of stuff.

00:56:10.460 --> 00:56:10.620
 Yeah.

00:56:10.860 --> 00:56:15.460
 And I just, I just like kind of looked over or whatever and was just like, what's your

00:56:15.460 --> 00:56:16.720
 favorite Minecraft block or whatever?

00:56:16.720 --> 00:56:20.280
 Because I saw he was on Minecraft and that like eyes light up thing.

00:56:20.440 --> 00:56:26.040
 It was just like a whole different, like, like, and she's like, yeah, like I, and she

00:56:26.040 --> 00:56:27.020
 said like a purple one.

00:56:27.060 --> 00:56:27.820
 And I was like, Oh, obsidian.

00:56:28.180 --> 00:56:30.500
 And, and, and she had to dumb it down for you.

00:56:30.580 --> 00:56:30.780
 Yeah.

00:56:30.980 --> 00:56:32.020
 But her adults.

00:56:32.220 --> 00:56:32.580
 Yeah.

00:56:32.660 --> 00:56:33.240
 Actually, I don't know.

00:56:33.400 --> 00:56:35.780
 He might not even know, but I wrote, he was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, that one.

00:56:36.120 --> 00:56:38.540
 And the mom was like, that's an actual thing.

00:56:38.800 --> 00:56:43.580
 Like, like her, her whole world was just like, like, wait, you're, you know what my kid's

00:56:43.580 --> 00:56:43.940
 saying?

00:56:44.060 --> 00:56:47.180
 She was like, my kid is like so much.

00:56:47.180 --> 00:56:52.100
 Like it's really hard to talk to him or whatever, but like, and she, she was like, Hey, I got

00:56:52.100 --> 00:56:52.740
 to go to the bathroom.

00:56:52.840 --> 00:56:53.780
 Can you watch my kid for a bit?

00:56:53.840 --> 00:56:55.000
 And I was like, absolutely.

00:56:55.620 --> 00:57:00.420
 And so we did, yeah, literally, like we were talking and eventually the kid asked, can I

00:57:00.420 --> 00:57:02.160
 switch you seats so I can sit next to him?

00:57:02.320 --> 00:57:05.540
 And she would try to talk to him and he'd be like, no, I need to ask him a question real

00:57:05.540 --> 00:57:05.720
 quick.

00:57:05.800 --> 00:57:07.360
 Like, like, stop trying to talk to me, mom.

00:57:07.360 --> 00:57:12.780
 I'm like, it's just like, yeah, immediately he asked me where I was going to be because

00:57:12.780 --> 00:57:14.260
 he's going to be at Disney world.

00:57:14.260 --> 00:57:18.000
 And he was like, well, when I see you again, I'll tell you what the sound is.

00:57:18.040 --> 00:57:18.960
 Cause I don't know yet.

00:57:18.960 --> 00:57:23.680
 And so the mom was like, can I take his, can I take your phone number so I can just like

00:57:23.680 --> 00:57:24.940
 text you?

00:57:25.560 --> 00:57:28.800
 I literally don't know how to do this, but you're the only person that's ever talked to

00:57:28.800 --> 00:57:29.160
 my kid.

00:57:29.380 --> 00:57:31.060
 She's going to put your name as Google.

00:57:31.320 --> 00:57:31.520
 Yeah.

00:57:31.840 --> 00:57:32.200
 Yeah.

00:57:32.280 --> 00:57:36.580
 I was thinking to myself, like, man, I, you know, before this was happening, I was talking

00:57:36.580 --> 00:57:40.520
 to the mom and was thinking like, there's just, I don't see any way that I can have

00:57:40.520 --> 00:57:45.260
 a, a, a, a religious conversation right now with just the conversation we're having.

00:57:45.280 --> 00:57:45.640
 Oh, sure.

00:57:45.860 --> 00:57:50.140
 Like I got to one point where she's like, I'm very Catholic, but she was like, and I can't

00:57:50.140 --> 00:57:51.640
 see any other way than that.

00:57:51.640 --> 00:57:55.340
 And like, she, I just, there was lots of things that would be, what's your favorite Minecraft?

00:57:55.420 --> 00:57:55.620
 Right.

00:57:55.740 --> 00:57:56.140
 Yeah.

00:57:56.620 --> 00:58:01.220
 But, but you know, this, because I, I was able to speak to her kid.

00:58:01.220 --> 00:58:04.800
 It was, he was asking me all these questions about why I was here and what was I doing?

00:58:05.080 --> 00:58:09.480
 I have to step in because we're out of time for the church, uh, digital podcast today.

00:58:09.480 --> 00:58:13.380
 Uh, yeah, this is the aspect that doesn't ever stop.

00:58:13.380 --> 00:58:14.900
 The podcast that never stops.

00:58:15.160 --> 00:58:18.240
 So thank you guys so much for listening to the church digital podcast or watching.

00:58:18.340 --> 00:58:19.300
 We really appreciate it.

00:58:19.360 --> 00:58:21.460
 Thank you guys, everybody for being on.

00:58:21.760 --> 00:58:28.600
 So, uh, from Mark from walks digital church, from, um, all of us from LTN, from story land,

00:58:28.680 --> 00:58:33.280
 from Jate live from flat cap dapper pastor from, uh, Bay hope.

00:58:33.280 --> 00:58:37.060
 Well, thank you so much guys for tuning in and listening this week and be sure to come

00:58:37.060 --> 00:58:39.300
 back and listen to the next episode of the church digital podcast.

00:58:40.140 --> 00:58:40.460
 Bye.

00:58:41.400 --> 00:58:41.840
 Happy birthday.

00:58:43.680 --> 00:58:44.400
 Happy birthday.