WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:04.840 Welcome to the Church Digital Podcast. Through this podcast, we'll talk about the technological 00:00:04.840 --> 00:00:10.920 innovations within the church. But more than tech for tech itself, we'll address deeper questions. 00:00:11.760 --> 00:00:16.640 Is disciple making possible digitally? How should we approach the digital mission field? 00:00:17.380 --> 00:00:22.440 Can a biblically grounded church operate in digital space? Oh, and where does the metaverse 00:00:22.440 --> 00:00:27.920 fit into all this? Whether you're a big or small church, an established church, or a startup church 00:00:27.920 --> 00:00:33.840 plant. The Church Digital's goal is to help churches like yours learn to be a multiplying church, 00:00:34.260 --> 00:00:40.460 digitally and physically. Our heart, that churches like yours will discover a newfound focus on 00:00:40.460 --> 00:00:46.820 disciple making that will revolutionize your church. And now, here's your host, Jeff Reed. 00:00:47.420 --> 00:00:53.260 All right. Hey, welcome to the Church Digital Podcast. We are streaming live on Twitch. So 00:00:53.260 --> 00:00:57.040 somewhere out in the interwebs, people are getting Twitch notifications right now. 00:00:57.040 --> 00:01:01.960 to come watch us live. It's Thursday, 3 p.m. Eastern. We've been doing a season here. 00:01:02.500 --> 00:01:10.120 Season four, Jesus Gamers in Church doing a deep dive, doing an introspective, doing a 360-degree 00:01:10.120 --> 00:01:16.900 view perspective on what gaming church is. Some of the good, some of the bad, some of the challenges, 00:01:17.380 --> 00:01:22.700 some of the opportunities. And we're starting to get to the end of the season here. We've got maybe 00:01:22.700 --> 00:01:28.220 one more episode coming up, but we're definitely excited about what we've been learning in context 00:01:28.220 --> 00:01:35.400 here centered around gaming church, really the fastest-growing category of digital churches today, 00:01:35.620 --> 00:01:43.300 gaming churches. We've talked with Mark. Don't call me Mark Lutz. The Lift, as he's been doing 00:01:43.300 --> 00:01:48.960 Luxe Digital Church. I did pronounce the church, Dave Wright, at least. Luxe Digital Church. And we 00:01:48.960 --> 00:01:55.780 talked nerd culture with Bubba from Love Thy Nerd. We talked digital missionaries with Jate and Aki. 00:01:56.420 --> 00:02:02.700 We talked, oh, so much. We talked women in streaming last week. And I know I probably kissed, 00:02:02.820 --> 00:02:09.120 kissed. Talking about women. Weird. I know we probably talked. I'm probably missing a couple others 00:02:09.120 --> 00:02:14.820 in along the way. Don't call me Mark. I won't. Digital Church Network, I promise. I won't call you 00:02:14.820 --> 00:02:20.920 Mark as well. But hey, you know what? Today we've got a great episode where we're bringing in some 00:02:20.920 --> 00:02:26.040 really smart people about gaming culture. Once again, I'm positioning myself as the listener here, 00:02:26.140 --> 00:02:31.900 podcast audience, and looking and seeing what's happening and what can happen, really, as we start 00:02:31.900 --> 00:02:38.500 to explore being the church in this digital space and how it matches up. And so I'm going to ask 00:02:38.500 --> 00:02:43.560 The Lift, Mark himself. I'm just going to call him Mark Lift from now on because I won't mispronounce 00:02:43.560 --> 00:02:47.960 last name. Mark Lift, do your magic. And let's bring in the special guest for today. 00:02:49.220 --> 00:02:50.600 Hello, hello, hello, hello. 00:02:50.600 --> 00:02:55.740 Hey, Mark. You're okay with that name, right? Mark Lift? Like, that's not offensive or insulting to 00:02:55.740 --> 00:02:56.680 you in any way, is it? 00:02:56.680 --> 00:03:00.600 You're welcome to just call me Mark, Jeff. You don't have to pronounce. And you're also welcome 00:03:00.600 --> 00:03:05.480 to mispronounce my last name. It actually doesn't offend me. You actually make a bigger deal out of 00:03:05.480 --> 00:03:09.240 mispronouncing my last name than I make a big deal. People have been mispronouncing my name 00:03:09.240 --> 00:03:14.580 my entire life. I just respond to all of them. My name got mispronounced on my wedding day. 00:03:14.880 --> 00:03:19.780 So it's not, you know, you mispronouncing my name at the beginning of a podcast is not a big deal. 00:03:20.320 --> 00:03:26.200 Wow. So I can't believe your father-in-law screwed up your last name on the wedding day. That's 00:03:26.200 --> 00:03:26.480 horrible. 00:03:26.600 --> 00:03:29.300 My father-in-law? No, my father-in-law didn't. My pastor did. 00:03:30.600 --> 00:03:36.120 Oh, you're, oh, that's even worse. Like I was, I was, I was announced. Uh, I, I have a pleasure 00:03:36.120 --> 00:03:42.480 of announcing for the very first time, Mr. And Mrs. Mark and Jennifer Lutz, uh, was what was said 00:03:42.480 --> 00:03:48.120 on my wedding day, which is inaccurate, but it was fine. We, we, we, it went, it went okay. But 00:03:48.120 --> 00:03:51.780 that, well, that's not why we're here. We're here to talk to, uh, St. Bear here. So. 00:03:52.560 --> 00:03:56.780 I mean, Mark, could you make this podcast any more about yourself? Like I'm just wondering, 00:03:56.920 --> 00:04:00.200 like, is there anything else we can talk about? No? Yeah. I have a handful of things that I'd like 00:04:00.200 --> 00:04:02.480 to talk about that involve me and only me. So. 00:04:03.640 --> 00:04:08.940 Okay. Very cool. Hey, so we got St. Bear in the room. Excited to have you on, sir. Uh, 00:04:08.940 --> 00:04:15.080 and so many, and as we've been doing these shows and streaming these shows live on Twitch Thursdays 00:04:15.080 --> 00:04:21.260 at 3 PM, like St. Bear has been awesome in the background, chatting it up. And I've enjoyed 00:04:21.260 --> 00:04:25.260 getting to know him really over the past couple of months. He was a new meet for me, uh, late 00:04:25.260 --> 00:04:29.580 last year. And so Zach, man, why don't you, uh, for the podcast audience, for people that 00:04:29.580 --> 00:04:33.480 may not know you just set the stage here a little bit, talk a little bit about who you 00:04:33.480 --> 00:04:36.300 are, what you do, the many facets of, of, of, of Zach. 00:04:37.560 --> 00:04:46.440 Yeah. Um, it's really fun to be here. I, um, I came from a background. I got my degree in 00:04:46.440 --> 00:04:51.140 business administration and then I went into construction and worked for a general contractor 00:04:51.140 --> 00:04:58.700 for a while. And, uh, so naturally I'm here talking about the digital church environment. 00:04:59.300 --> 00:05:04.120 Um, no, it's just been really fun to be able to land in this place where I get to do what 00:05:04.120 --> 00:05:09.980 I do for a living and, uh, also help apply it and be kind of gas in the engine for all 00:05:09.980 --> 00:05:15.620 just this wide variety of like nerd culture ministries as we're calling it. Um, professionally, 00:05:15.620 --> 00:05:22.800 I'm a producer for Plain Joe studios, which is a studio. Um, it is a story land studio and, 00:05:23.140 --> 00:05:28.820 um, we do design work for churches and other cause related organizations, nonprofits. 00:05:29.300 --> 00:05:37.720 Um, and our whole, I, our big idea as a company is how do we help the church, um, accomplish 00:05:37.720 --> 00:05:42.320 storytelling worthy of the story. We believe the church has the best story ever told, um, 00:05:42.380 --> 00:05:47.440 the responsibility of stewarding that well. And we're, uh, as a church, big C church, good 00:05:47.440 --> 00:05:53.460 at doing that with our words generally. Um, but our spaces that we create and the culture 00:05:53.460 --> 00:05:58.780 we set, our communication strategy, the websites we have, digital tools we use, all of 00:05:58.780 --> 00:06:05.260 that speaks and often speaks louder than the actual words we're using. Um, the person 00:06:05.260 --> 00:06:09.460 who comes to your church for the first time is being spoken to by how intentional you are 00:06:09.460 --> 00:06:14.560 about wayfinding, how hard it is to find a seat, uh, what kind of spaces are you creating? 00:06:14.640 --> 00:06:17.300 What kind of culture are they experiencing before you've ever spoken a word to them? 00:06:17.840 --> 00:06:23.980 And so, um, I get to do that for a living with a wide variety of organizations, um, all over 00:06:23.980 --> 00:06:28.260 the country. And as a producer, I get to lead projects and help set creative direction and 00:06:28.780 --> 00:06:35.260 work with teams of artisans and craftsmen and designers and architects to do all of that. 00:06:35.260 --> 00:06:42.800 And the beauty is I'm also a card carrying nerd and I love my fair share of video games and 00:06:42.800 --> 00:06:49.420 tabletop games and just all things nerdy. And so, um, I've just been able to get really connected in 00:06:49.420 --> 00:06:52.740 this space and get to know everyone and have a passion for it. Most of my closest friends 00:06:52.740 --> 00:06:59.660 are also nerds. And, um, they're either Christians who would benefit a lot from these ministries or 00:06:59.660 --> 00:07:03.480 they're people who aren't Christians who will only ever be reached by ministries like this because they 00:07:03.480 --> 00:07:09.660 have no interest in ever, ever going to a traditional church. Um, and so I just have been very motivated 00:07:09.660 --> 00:07:15.460 to say, how can I take all the things that I get to do kind of during my day job as a producer with 00:07:15.460 --> 00:07:23.100 Plain Joe and help imagine how that plays out in digital spaces, uh, use those skill sets and project 00:07:23.100 --> 00:07:27.780 management chops to, yeah, just be gas in the engine for all these different ministries. 00:07:28.480 --> 00:07:34.780 So yeah, that's a little bit of who I am. A lot of what, uh, a lot of the people that we've had 00:07:34.780 --> 00:07:42.540 on this show over season four, just about all with the exception of DJ and, uh, pastor Coco from VR 00:07:42.540 --> 00:07:48.620 church and MMO church, all of them were part of the Megazord summit that happened back in October. 00:07:48.780 --> 00:07:54.780 We gathered a bunch of people together and Zach has was mostly like the brainchild, uh, and the vision 00:07:54.780 --> 00:08:01.040 in the heart behind that, right? He and I worked on that a lot. That was an event that was primarily 00:08:01.040 --> 00:08:08.360 90% of it was run. It was all funded by Lux or Lux partners, but it was Zach and I that were 00:08:08.360 --> 00:08:13.160 meeting together literally every week, sometimes multiple times a week leading up to it, making the 00:08:13.160 --> 00:08:17.760 invites, having the meetings and then, uh, Zach in the background who did all of the project 00:08:17.760 --> 00:08:24.200 management on that. And so when he says he wants to be fuel in the engine, that isn't just words, 00:08:24.200 --> 00:08:30.940 uh, that is, I mean, that is very practically, he has been fuel in the engine of what we've seen 00:08:30.940 --> 00:08:37.120 birthed because of Megazord, right? We've seen on the other side of the Megazord, the nerd culture 00:08:37.120 --> 00:08:42.020 ministry collective network that has been forming and people are getting into groups and connecting. 00:08:42.020 --> 00:08:46.860 We've seen those relationships built. We've seen a tremendous, we've seen more unity in this space 00:08:46.860 --> 00:08:52.940 now than I think arguably has ever been in, in the space. I haven't been in the space the seven or 00:08:52.940 --> 00:08:57.260 eight years that it's been here, but I think most of the people who have been would say that there's 00:08:57.260 --> 00:09:02.160 more unity right now than there has ever been. And then with that, also what we're seeing here doing 00:09:02.160 --> 00:09:06.060 at the church digital, um, a lot of the people who are on it, we've had those connections to and 00:09:06.060 --> 00:09:11.260 invited them onto the show because of what happened back in October with Megazord. And, you know, 00:09:11.260 --> 00:09:15.160 Zach had a little bit of a lot of the heart behind that. So you just want to tell us briefly, 00:09:15.160 --> 00:09:23.840 Zach, like why, why Megazord? Where did that come from? Um, and follow that, that trails a little 00:09:23.840 --> 00:09:24.900 bit to help people understand. 00:09:26.280 --> 00:09:38.000 Yeah, absolutely. Um, I remember, man, it's at least a year ago now, which is crazy. We, um, I was thinking 00:09:38.000 --> 00:09:42.640 about just seeing all these different ministries. There's Love Thy Nerd, there's all these different 00:09:42.640 --> 00:09:48.100 streamers, um, there's digital churches and there's people wanting to serve in the background, people who 00:09:48.100 --> 00:09:53.460 aren't going to be the person primarily on camera. They're not someone who really wants to be like a 00:09:53.460 --> 00:09:59.500 full-time streamer. Um, but they just love this space, want to serve it well. And so I'm seeing all 00:09:59.500 --> 00:10:04.300 these people and I'm thinking to myself, man, wouldn't it be great if we could get them all in a room 00:10:04.300 --> 00:10:10.480 to be collaborative because, Hey man, it must be just be so lonely. All of these are people that have 00:10:10.480 --> 00:10:16.420 this entrepreneurial spirit. They start going, doing this ministry, head down, just running as fast 00:10:16.420 --> 00:10:22.960 as they can. And it's so hard for them to be able to make time to get to know one another. Uh, so like 00:10:22.960 --> 00:10:28.320 when you work in a traditional office space, you have all your coworkers and you walk by and you chat 00:10:28.320 --> 00:10:32.520 with them and you can kind of commiserate about things that are difficult or share lessons learned and 00:10:32.520 --> 00:10:38.360 tips and tricks. And you don't have that when you're working full-time at home for yourself doing this 00:10:38.360 --> 00:10:42.720 mission, mission field that you started, you know? And so there's people that have been doing it for 00:10:42.720 --> 00:10:48.700 seven, eight years now that barely know any of the other people in the same space. And so we just said, 00:10:48.760 --> 00:10:53.360 man, what if we could get them all together around the same table, build a relationship so they can 00:10:53.360 --> 00:11:00.360 support one another, love on each other. And, uh, I, I think we talked about this before. I like 00:11:00.360 --> 00:11:05.200 wrote up this whole tweet, which, you know, to all three of my followers that I had on Twitter 00:11:05.200 --> 00:11:13.280 and I posted it with this idea. And lo and behold, those three people, uh, one of them being my wife 00:11:13.280 --> 00:11:18.380 was that we're not the audience that needed to hear it, but I at least got the thought on paper. 00:11:19.040 --> 00:11:24.000 And it wasn't long after that, that I met you, Mark. And I, I mentioned the same thing to you. 00:11:24.000 --> 00:11:28.840 It's just, man, this has been on my heart. I wonder if this is possible. And, uh, it wasn't long after 00:11:28.840 --> 00:11:33.520 that, that we were able to get funding and actually make it happen. But really the goal behind it was 00:11:33.520 --> 00:11:40.600 let's, can we get these people together? And also as part of that, um, help them help us all have a 00:11:40.600 --> 00:11:45.780 better understanding of how we fit together. Uh, we don't all need to be, that was the reason we called 00:11:45.780 --> 00:11:50.700 it Megazord, right? The, the other working title was how to be a body instead of pile of dismembered 00:11:50.700 --> 00:11:54.480 limbs. And that was like the whole idea. We're pulling straight from scripture and just using 00:11:54.480 --> 00:12:00.820 nerdy language for it of, you know, putting the Zords together into one large Megazord, right? 00:12:01.260 --> 00:12:07.000 And to say, you don't have to all be the same thing, right? We don't all have to be Jake. We 00:12:07.000 --> 00:12:12.180 don't all have to be Aki. In fact, the beauty is that we're not. So how do we get better clarity 00:12:12.180 --> 00:12:16.740 on what each of us are? Cause if you're looking at someone else and trying to say like, I feel like 00:12:16.740 --> 00:12:22.040 I'm different, but how do I be them? Um, we're just going to have frustration. We're going to have 00:12:22.040 --> 00:12:26.360 frustration as our communities look at us and say, you're not doing the same thing as him. So you're 00:12:26.360 --> 00:12:31.660 doing it wrong and he's doing it right. Um, and just to help have that clarity, um, what does it look 00:12:31.660 --> 00:12:36.120 like to have the different roles? How do we fit together? How do we operate as a body that's, you 00:12:36.120 --> 00:12:40.640 know, where we're synergizing and complimenting one another and supporting one another and even 00:12:40.640 --> 00:12:46.440 helping people see like the role of that I could play where I'm saying I'm not going to be the 00:12:46.440 --> 00:12:49.980 streamer, but I do have project management shops. So that's, that's one of the roles that we can play 00:12:49.980 --> 00:12:54.560 as part of this Megazord. Um, so other people can start to see how they can plug in and be part of 00:12:54.560 --> 00:13:00.020 that, part of that body and part of the mission without having to necessarily be the totally, 00:13:00.020 --> 00:13:07.980 you know, top tier, excellent, uh, e-sports competitor or the super high energy streamer. 00:13:07.980 --> 00:13:11.260 You know, those are important roles, but there's other roles to play and how do we all fit together? 00:13:11.360 --> 00:13:15.600 So that was really the heart behind it. And I think, I think it went really well. I think it 00:13:15.600 --> 00:13:21.620 was a success in that respect. Yeah, absolutely. Which I think Jeff, I know that you have, uh, 00:13:22.140 --> 00:13:28.120 you're steering the ship, but there was some, uh, I think that ties in fairly well to what you 00:13:28.120 --> 00:13:31.880 wanted to kind of touch on and get into in this episode. Am I correct? 00:13:34.460 --> 00:13:40.360 Yeah, sure. Thanks for the transition, Mark. I appreciate that. Um, where, let me ask this, 00:13:40.540 --> 00:13:48.460 where do you think the, um, where's the collaborative come from? Like individually, 00:13:48.460 --> 00:13:54.280 like these, the, these people you're mentioning, they, many of them were never in the same room 00:13:54.280 --> 00:13:59.760 or in the same physical space before, uh, before Megazord, when we got together back then, 00:13:59.760 --> 00:14:07.440 um, um, or very minimal. And so relationships are digital, uh, they're stretched, um, where, 00:14:07.640 --> 00:14:12.160 but you're, you're right. At least, you know, even in the past seven, seven years ago, there 00:14:12.160 --> 00:14:15.800 weren't that many people. There weren't enough people to really almost have collaboration because 00:14:15.800 --> 00:14:21.360 it was so, so new in this gaming structure. Where do you guys think the collaboration comes from? 00:14:21.760 --> 00:14:30.940 Um, I think at a minimum, there's a lot of opportunity in just these networks that we're 00:14:30.940 --> 00:14:37.560 setting up, having networks, cohorts, whatever you want to call it. If I'm a streamer or if 00:14:37.560 --> 00:14:44.380 I'm an organization leader, if I'm a girl gamer, whatever that looks like, having a group of people 00:14:44.380 --> 00:14:50.600 that are on mission doing similar work as me. Um, because if you, you know, if you're any one of 00:14:50.600 --> 00:14:54.800 those things, finding someone that happens to like live in your neighborhood or go to your church, 00:14:54.800 --> 00:14:59.740 who's doing that same thing is really unlikely. If you're a builder, you might find other contractors 00:14:59.740 --> 00:15:03.840 that you can talk to and talk shop with. There's very few, you know, the odds that you're going to 00:15:03.840 --> 00:15:07.740 find someone else that's doing nerd culture ministry that you can talk shop with are, are pretty few. 00:15:07.780 --> 00:15:13.420 So just having those people where you can be connecting on a regular basis, uh, sharing lessons learned. 00:15:13.420 --> 00:15:18.220 And, um, you know, this works well for me. Why are you doing it that way? Does that work better for you? 00:15:18.600 --> 00:15:24.540 Like technical stuff? What programs are you using? Practical stuff? Like, Hey, we had this guy drop in 00:15:24.540 --> 00:15:30.560 the other day and he was just being really toxic. How do you handle that? Um, we had, you know, I, 00:15:30.560 --> 00:15:35.860 I'm not seeing the numbers. I wish I was, how do you stay motivated? And, you know, just those kinds of 00:15:35.860 --> 00:15:41.520 things that people normally get when they work in an industry, being able to have that cross-pollination, 00:15:41.680 --> 00:15:45.580 I think is really, really valuable. And then there's more tangible things where it's, Hey, 00:15:45.740 --> 00:15:50.280 we're doing this fundraiser. Let's all partner on that. Um, Hey, let's do a stream where we do this 00:15:50.280 --> 00:15:54.160 event together, uh, so that our communities come together and get to know each other. 00:15:54.460 --> 00:15:58.860 Let's do something in real life. We, you guys have five people in this city. We've got five people. 00:15:59.080 --> 00:16:02.800 Let's get together and set up some kind of local meetup with our combined communities. 00:16:03.140 --> 00:16:06.200 I think there's potential for all of that. Once you have relationships in place. 00:16:07.100 --> 00:16:12.400 Yeah, I would agree. Go ahead, Mark. I was gonna say, I would agree with it. I would agree with 00:16:12.400 --> 00:16:16.400 that. I think that where does collaboration come into place? I mean, there's some obvious 00:16:16.400 --> 00:16:22.340 collaborating things built, it baked into Twitch as a platform, things like rating and hosting and all 00:16:22.340 --> 00:16:27.180 of those sorts of things. There's things like what Aki from Aki and Fam does, which is Aki and 00:16:27.180 --> 00:16:33.000 Friends and he invites people to come on and just be part. And they have a conversation. Um, he did one 00:16:33.000 --> 00:16:37.500 where it was a gamer dads for a while, where like, if you were a dad and you were a gamer, they got on 00:16:37.500 --> 00:16:43.240 and had a conversation around raising your kids. Well, uh, who are, you're also raising your kids to be 00:16:43.240 --> 00:16:47.840 gamers. I think that there's obvious collaboration there. But when I think about this, I oftentimes think 00:16:47.840 --> 00:16:53.740 about what does it look like for pastors in a town, in a small town to collaborate? Um, and it, 00:16:53.740 --> 00:16:59.740 it usually isn't, Hey, uh, we're doing a potluck. So all of you bring your people to our potluck, 00:16:59.740 --> 00:17:07.020 but where the collaboration becomes really powerful is in seeking unity together. And I think for that, 00:17:07.020 --> 00:17:15.780 that becomes, how do we actually speak of one another? Um, and, and how do we respond specifically 00:17:15.780 --> 00:17:22.140 when people come to us who speak poorly of other people in the space? And how do we get to the point 00:17:22.140 --> 00:17:27.540 where we have relationships where when given the opportunity, we always speak well of one another. 00:17:27.540 --> 00:17:32.620 And I was inspired by this just locally because my senior pastor helped to lead a ministerium and 00:17:32.620 --> 00:17:36.080 it's been around, you know, he's one of the longest standing members of that ministerium of like 30 00:17:36.080 --> 00:17:41.860 years now. And one of the things that Chris said is when people come to my church and they say, 00:17:41.940 --> 00:17:47.140 I'm mad at summit Presbyterian church. And I don't like Tom. I say, Oh, I know Tom. And he's a 00:17:47.140 --> 00:17:51.860 friend of mine. And it lets them know that this isn't a place that you can just come 00:17:51.860 --> 00:17:57.560 and whine and complain and moan about the other pastor up the street. We speak well of one another 00:17:57.560 --> 00:18:02.800 here. And I think Megazord. And on top of that collaboration in general has really been about 00:18:02.800 --> 00:18:07.340 that, right? For us, we had Amanda on last week from God squad church. They're one of the other 00:18:07.340 --> 00:18:12.120 digital churches in our environment. You can't get me to speak poorly about God squad church. Cause I'm 00:18:12.120 --> 00:18:18.000 friends with daylight and with Amanda and with boss and with, uh, probably the least with boss, but 00:18:18.000 --> 00:18:23.820 and with Susie, right. That those are people who I speak well of. You can't get me to speak poorly 00:18:23.820 --> 00:18:28.580 of Aki. Why? Because Aki is the adopter streamer that I have. You can't get me to speak poorly of 00:18:28.580 --> 00:18:33.540 Jade because Jade's like my brother. And so because of that, when people come to our community and want 00:18:33.540 --> 00:18:37.540 to maybe moan or complain or like, well, I don't really like that streamer. I don't really like what 00:18:37.540 --> 00:18:41.820 they're doing here. I don't really agree with them theologically. It's like, well, you're not going to 00:18:41.820 --> 00:18:47.340 find any grounds for that complaint here. There's no, no one's commiserating with you here. So go find 00:18:47.340 --> 00:18:53.580 a different place to complain. And I think that, uh, that is really where some of this, um, like 00:18:53.580 --> 00:18:59.520 working together is at its sweet spot that there's just this spirit of unity for the entire community, 00:18:59.520 --> 00:19:03.120 the hundreds of people that are connected to the various communities across the board that every 00:19:03.120 --> 00:19:08.400 time one of our names are seen in a stream that streamers like, Hey, pastor Mark. Oh, Hey, give you 00:19:08.400 --> 00:19:11.800 guys, we love him. Or when Aki comes in, Aki, it's so good to have you here. 00:19:11.820 --> 00:19:15.720 Or when St. Bear comes to St. Bear's here today, right? Like there's this camaraderie amongst the 00:19:15.720 --> 00:19:19.460 group and it's like, wow, all of these people know each other. And more importantly, they don't 00:19:19.460 --> 00:19:22.500 compete with one another. They actually like one another. And I think that that is a really 00:19:22.500 --> 00:19:26.480 important element of what collaboration looks like in this space specifically. 00:19:27.920 --> 00:19:33.820 We, uh, we talked about this phrase of, um, not throwing each other's dirty laundry out in the 00:19:33.820 --> 00:19:39.740 digital street and saying, if we have an issue or a beef with someone, this space is young and early 00:19:39.740 --> 00:19:44.880 enough and it's emerging. We have the opportunity to set a cultural precedent now by getting all the 00:19:44.880 --> 00:19:49.060 people who are kind of on the front lines on the same page. So we can set that cultural precedent of 00:19:49.060 --> 00:19:53.840 if I've got an issue with you, I know you, I've met you. I'm just going to call you and talk to you 00:19:53.840 --> 00:19:57.920 about it. And we're not going to, we're not just going to go on Twitter and throw your dirty 00:19:57.920 --> 00:20:02.540 laundry in the digital street. And I think, I agree. I think that was a big part of what we wanted to 00:20:02.540 --> 00:20:07.300 accomplish. And I think has, we've seen the fruit of that and it helps to lead all the communities 00:20:07.300 --> 00:20:10.380 then to a greater sense of unity by setting that precedent. 00:20:12.320 --> 00:20:17.460 Well, there, there's a lot more unity centered around the ideology of Megazord. The, what is that? 00:20:17.520 --> 00:20:21.740 That is Power Rangers, right? I'm, I'm, I'm, I want to make sure I get my correct here. Right. So 00:20:21.740 --> 00:20:27.660 Megazord, the Power Rangers connecting together to create the giant robot with the sword. No, the sword 00:20:27.660 --> 00:20:32.460 is, uh, Voltron, which is the lions. Anyway, I'm getting, I'm getting confused. My own 00:20:32.460 --> 00:20:38.260 analogy. Um, however, I did look at dismemberedbodyparts.com is available. So if you did 00:20:38.260 --> 00:20:45.840 want to, to shift over to more of that ideology, I, I for one would love to help you launch dismembered 00:20:45.840 --> 00:20:53.880 men member body parts.com or whatever that was on GoDaddy. That is gross. I didn't know dismembered 00:20:53.880 --> 00:20:56.940 body parts. I did not think I was going there with this conversation today, but thank you all 00:20:56.940 --> 00:21:02.740 for taking me there. Uh, so eloquently, Hey, uh, image worse. So here, here's what they don't 00:21:02.740 --> 00:21:08.260 believe me. It works. Thank you. Thank you for that. Um, yeah, like every, every Friday, 00:21:08.360 --> 00:21:15.900 the 13th movie ever is flashing back in my head. Yeah. Thank you. So, so good. Um, here's 00:21:15.900 --> 00:21:20.460 what I wanted to dig into, and this may be a little complex, um, of, of an idea for us to 00:21:20.460 --> 00:21:25.800 unpack, but I think we can do it. Um, so you're talking about different parts of the body with 00:21:25.800 --> 00:21:30.880 different functions, um, you know, and, and how you, you've got the streamers, you've got 00:21:30.880 --> 00:21:35.480 the digital missionaries, you, you've got the churches, you've got the mods. We've, we've 00:21:35.480 --> 00:21:42.120 talked about just the different facets of, of roles that, that operate within, um, this, 00:21:42.240 --> 00:21:47.520 this gaming environment. Well, uh, it's interesting. There's, there's an idea called 00:21:47.520 --> 00:21:53.680 a pest, uh, that is, uh, centered in church planting, where it talks about each person 00:21:53.680 --> 00:21:59.560 has, has a different characteristic and whether you're planting a church or doing ministry or 00:21:59.560 --> 00:22:05.000 whatever it looks like, the idea is to get all of these types of people together so that 00:22:05.000 --> 00:22:10.260 you don't have just a bunch of arms or a bunch of eyeballs or a bunch of hands, um, doing 00:22:10.260 --> 00:22:16.020 something because you need all the parts of the body working together, collaborating, synergizing. 00:22:19.080 --> 00:22:24.960 I know we had some conversations about a pest earlier and, and, um, uh, with some of the 00:22:24.960 --> 00:22:29.960 Megazord stuff. And it really challenged me and kind of opened my eyes to what, what could 00:22:29.960 --> 00:22:37.240 be in gaming. I didn't realize, to be honest, I didn't realize there were so many, um, characteristics, 00:22:37.480 --> 00:22:41.780 roles. I didn't realize there were so many roles, uh, within, within the gaming church. 00:22:41.780 --> 00:22:46.960 And so within this past several months, that's been the eyeopening for me is, is understanding, 00:22:46.960 --> 00:22:53.620 oh, you do need really that type of person to fill that specific role in this. And, and, and the, 00:22:53.620 --> 00:22:58.360 the mods are not, are not, you know, one thing that I learned last week talking with the ladies 00:22:58.360 --> 00:23:03.700 is how important the mods are, uh, in, in some of those situations. And so I would love for us to, 00:23:03.920 --> 00:23:11.160 to unpack, um, maybe some of the a pest ideology, uh, maybe see how that maps into gaming church. 00:23:11.160 --> 00:23:16.460 Maybe even how that maps into digital church overall and start to get a picture of that. 00:23:16.660 --> 00:23:24.160 Now, um, I do want to give the floor to Mark. Um, don't say my last name, uh, lift because Mark 00:23:24.160 --> 00:23:29.440 is, is, is inside. He's, he's got a little, he's got a little anger inside him right now. There's a chip 00:23:29.440 --> 00:23:35.680 on his shoulder and then the chip is, uh, he's, he's, he's the four guy. He's not the five guy. 00:23:35.680 --> 00:23:41.780 So he's really upset that I'm using a pest, even though Alan Hirsch is, is right. And Mark is wrong, 00:23:41.840 --> 00:23:47.900 but that's okay. So Mark, would, would you like to just clarify your, your, your fourfold view 00:23:47.900 --> 00:23:49.140 for the audience here? 00:23:49.400 --> 00:23:55.500 Sure. I, I, it is, is really not a chip on my shoulder, but, uh, yeah. Um, uh, so, I mean, 00:23:55.680 --> 00:24:00.820 I went ahead and posted the scripture in, in our chat as well. So Christ gave himself a great 00:24:00.820 --> 00:24:05.980 gave himself. So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors, 00:24:05.980 --> 00:24:11.580 and the teachers. Um, and so the fivefold ministry kind of comes from that. There are people who are 00:24:11.580 --> 00:24:17.540 apostles, the gift of church planting, starting new things, um, entrepreneurship, um, prophets. Uh, 00:24:17.540 --> 00:24:22.280 I've always defined that as the ability or the, the giftedness to call God's people back to 00:24:22.280 --> 00:24:27.380 righteousness. Um, uh, the evangelists, people who bring new people in and then the pastors and the 00:24:27.380 --> 00:24:33.280 teachers. And in, in my, uh, theological upbringing, pastor teacher in Greek is not two 00:24:33.280 --> 00:24:38.460 terms. It is a singular term that we split in the English translation of the Bible. So pastor teacher 00:24:38.460 --> 00:24:44.240 is a singular role, not a, uh, not two separate roles. So I'm a fourfold guy, not a fivefold guy. 00:24:44.240 --> 00:24:51.200 But, uh, the point is, is that all five of these roles are very important, um, inside any faith 00:24:51.200 --> 00:24:57.080 community. And it is exceptionally important inside of, uh, inside of this community as well. And I 00:24:57.080 --> 00:25:02.760 think what is really interesting is we've actually seen all four slash five of these things, um, 00:25:03.000 --> 00:25:08.740 play out, uh, in pretty profound ways, because I think, I think the main point is, is that you want 00:25:08.740 --> 00:25:14.820 to gather these things together in a church plant. Um, but I've seen the church led by each of these, 00:25:14.820 --> 00:25:18.980 right? There's certainly churches that are led and started by apostles, uh, people with the, 00:25:18.980 --> 00:25:23.580 the gifting of profit on their life. That's the one that I lean most heavily into personally. 00:25:23.780 --> 00:25:28.820 If there's one that I think God has placed on my life, it's the role of profit. Um, and, and not 00:25:28.820 --> 00:25:32.540 when I say that to mean predicting the future, but in, in terms of calling God's people back to 00:25:32.540 --> 00:25:38.220 righteousness, um, the, to evangelize to, you know, people who are just really missionary mission 00:25:38.220 --> 00:25:44.640 driven. Um, and then pastors and teachers, which, you know, pastors are shepherds, which I think is what 00:25:44.640 --> 00:25:49.860 a pest translates it to right shepherd, um, really great at pastoral care and just coming alongside 00:25:49.860 --> 00:25:53.820 people and teachers really great at just communicating biblical truth and digestible ways. 00:25:54.340 --> 00:26:00.060 And, uh, we see these things and actually the beautiful thing is we've actually seen these 00:26:00.060 --> 00:26:06.760 things on the show. I think that is one of the coolest things is we've seen these on the show, 00:26:06.760 --> 00:26:14.340 because when I look, the shepherd rule is Aki and his family through and through, right? This desire 00:26:14.340 --> 00:26:19.960 to create a place that if you don't have a safe home, you have a safe home here with us. I've told 00:26:19.960 --> 00:26:27.140 Aki and his wife, uh, Natalie several times now, if like they are, they are more equipped for pastoral 00:26:27.140 --> 00:26:35.340 care inside of a church than most pastoral care pastors. Like they're just so good at it of caring 00:26:35.340 --> 00:26:40.060 for people deeply and authentically, um, in really powerful ways. And then of course we had a 00:26:40.060 --> 00:26:44.380 conversation with Jade who unapologetically has said his goal is to have 50% of his stream to be 00:26:44.380 --> 00:26:50.260 non-believers. Why? Because he has this deep pulling as, as, uh, as, as an evangelist, right? Um, 00:26:50.600 --> 00:26:54.940 and you can kind of see that in the fact that Jade's number one goal, isn't necessarily putting all 00:26:54.940 --> 00:26:59.800 the building blocks in place, but it's having those deep relationships. And then we've had Bubba on 00:26:59.800 --> 00:27:05.660 and certainly the gifting of apostles on a Bubba's life as he has been a builder, right? An entrepreneur, 00:27:05.660 --> 00:27:11.380 a, uh, a serial starter in many ways in which he sees things out ahead of him. And he, he, 00:27:11.580 --> 00:27:16.780 he's putting all of those blocks in place. And you can see that in what has emerged with love, 00:27:16.820 --> 00:27:21.860 I nerd, and now the nerd culture ministry summit. And so we've seen these giftings actually play out 00:27:21.860 --> 00:27:27.520 pretty powerfully. Um, I think through just this podcast and maybe not all five, but certainly 00:27:27.520 --> 00:27:31.880 at least most of them. Um, and they are really at work in the space. 00:27:33.020 --> 00:27:38.540 So, but Bubba is your, is your apostle in, in, in this model with the, with the builder mentality? 00:27:38.600 --> 00:27:40.760 Like what, what's your, where would you put Bubba in that? 00:27:40.760 --> 00:27:46.800 Um, I want to be really careful that I don't, I don't Trump on stomp on Alan Hirsch's, uh, uh, 00:27:47.060 --> 00:27:54.840 I, I don't know. I don't know how a strict a pest is right. Or how easily it is to flex from one to 00:27:54.840 --> 00:28:01.460 the next. Right. I will quote, I literally, I, I, all, all this Alan Hirsch, uh, wrote, wrote the 00:28:01.460 --> 00:28:06.280 book, the forgotten ways back in the, in the mid two thousands. I actually have the page open on 00:28:06.280 --> 00:28:12.060 my computer. There we go. Perfect. Um, apostle, this is Alan Hirsch, the man who brought a pest 00:28:12.060 --> 00:28:17.820 ministry by fold. Really? He, he brought it back. This was something that was around in the seventies, 00:28:17.900 --> 00:28:22.980 eighties and nineties. Like it just went away. Two thousands was the rejuvenation of this concept. 00:28:23.460 --> 00:28:29.700 Apostles extend the gospel as the sent ones. They ensure that the faith is transmitted from one 00:28:29.700 --> 00:28:34.680 context to another and from one generation to the next. They are always thinking about the future, 00:28:34.680 --> 00:28:39.940 uh, bridging barriers and establishing the church in new context, the lip developing leaders, 00:28:40.560 --> 00:28:48.240 networking trans locally. Yes. If you're focused solely on initiating new ideas, uh, of rapid expansion, 00:28:48.240 --> 00:28:53.440 you can leave people in organizations wounded, uh, the shepherding and teaching 00:28:53.440 --> 00:28:59.520 functions are needed to ensure people are cared for rather than simply used. And like, and so there's 00:28:59.520 --> 00:29:04.300 pros and their con there's good sides to being an apostle is a bad side to being an apostle. Um, 00:29:04.300 --> 00:29:08.020 and let's not, when I'm talking Bubba, I'm not saying he's using and abusing people, but 00:29:08.020 --> 00:29:12.340 like, does, does, does Bubba fit that model of the apostle? You know, Mark, I know you fit that 00:29:12.340 --> 00:29:19.660 model. I would, I would feel comfortable putting you in that space. Um, prophets, uh, know God's will. 00:29:20.080 --> 00:29:22.940 They are particularly attuned to God and his truth for today. 00:29:23.420 --> 00:29:28.580 They bring correction and challenge and challenge the dominant assumptions we inherent from the 00:29:28.580 --> 00:29:34.360 culture. They insist that the community obey what God has commanded. They question the status quo 00:29:34.360 --> 00:29:40.920 without the other types of leaders in place. Prophets can become belligerent activists or 00:29:40.920 --> 00:29:48.600 paradoxically disengage from the imperfections of reality and become otherworldly. I don't know. 00:29:48.660 --> 00:29:51.900 I can see, I can see a little bit of Mark in that too. Yeah. Well, where do you see yourself, man? 00:29:51.900 --> 00:29:56.300 Let's make it about you, Mark. That's why I'm saying like, I don't, you know, depending on what 00:29:56.300 --> 00:30:02.020 your view on this is, people can flex from one to the next. Right. Um, and there's certainly people 00:30:02.020 --> 00:30:09.120 who exhibit multiple giftedness, even in the people that have been in the show so far. Um, whereas all, 00:30:09.280 --> 00:30:13.820 I would say that people have primary voices when it comes to eight best and maybe secondary voices 00:30:13.820 --> 00:30:18.260 when it comes to eight best. And if I had a primary voice, my primary voice is that of profit. My 00:30:18.260 --> 00:30:22.820 secondary voice is that of apostle, at least in this particular season of life. But do you feel 00:30:22.820 --> 00:30:28.080 like those, uh, categorically, uh, would you agree with some of that stuff, Zach? Cause you know, 00:30:28.080 --> 00:30:32.960 a lot of these people very closely now, as you built relationships intentionally with so many of them 00:30:32.960 --> 00:30:41.040 over the last year. Yeah. Yeah. I think, um, I think the space we're in, when we talk about 00:30:41.040 --> 00:30:45.740 nerd culture ministry, the whole space in some ways feels like it fits that description of the 00:30:45.740 --> 00:30:51.580 apostolic it's going, it's contextualizing the gospel to a specific culture. It's doing something 00:30:51.580 --> 00:30:56.420 that's kind of new and different. And within that, then you have within this like apostolic setting, 00:30:56.420 --> 00:31:00.340 kind of, you still have all those other roles, right? So you still have the person who's a 00:31:00.340 --> 00:31:05.100 prophet in that space, making sure that just because we're doing a new thing, we're not getting 00:31:05.100 --> 00:31:10.080 to, you know, so off the rails that we let that new context completely remove us from 00:31:10.080 --> 00:31:14.240 what we're really here for and make sure that we're still staying on target and staying on goal with 00:31:14.240 --> 00:31:19.680 the gospel. Um, we have the people who within that space are called to be teachers and shepherds 00:31:19.680 --> 00:31:25.700 and evangelists. Um, so absolutely that, that, that like brief description, you just walk through with 00:31:25.700 --> 00:31:31.500 jake tending toward that evangelistic side, Aki being more of a shepherd, all those, I think 00:31:31.500 --> 00:31:36.760 makes sense. And it was funny. I was, I am not, I historically, I haven't spent a lot of time 00:31:36.760 --> 00:31:40.520 being familiar with APES. So I just wanted to kind of get familiarized with it and was doing some 00:31:40.520 --> 00:31:45.440 research as I flew home yesterday. And I was reading an article about it where it talked about 00:31:45.440 --> 00:31:51.400 how for them, a big part of APES is getting rid of this concept of like pastor versus lay people. 00:31:52.000 --> 00:31:56.180 And it had this phrase in there where it said within the Christian community, there are few 00:31:56.180 --> 00:32:01.180 words more disabling than lay person or laity. But this whole point being like, everyone has a role 00:32:01.180 --> 00:32:06.460 to play and yes, there's the shepherd or there's the, there's the teacher and like the things that 00:32:06.460 --> 00:32:12.040 are kind of more obviously pastoral roles, but everyone has a role to play. And that's part of 00:32:12.040 --> 00:32:20.860 what I think is so cool about the space is, is that is to see how people, it's not that guy up there 00:32:20.860 --> 00:32:26.040 is doing the work and I can support it from back here as a lay person, but all of us have a part to 00:32:26.040 --> 00:32:31.980 play as a part of this body and they're all important and they all matter. Um, which I think is really 00:32:31.980 --> 00:32:32.360 beautiful. 00:32:33.920 --> 00:32:40.000 I can remember having early conversations with Jate. This is going back all the way to maybe 2018, 20, 00:32:40.140 --> 00:32:46.380 this is probably the first podcast I did with Jate whenever it was. And, um, and, and he, he told me, 00:32:46.380 --> 00:32:52.000 he's like, yeah, I, I, I will never be called a pastor. Uh, because he felt if he took the moniker, 00:32:52.140 --> 00:32:57.660 the label of pastor, the expectation would be for, from the people that were, were following him, 00:32:57.820 --> 00:33:02.540 that he would be the one doing the work. The expectation is that the pastor is doing the work 00:33:02.560 --> 00:33:08.280 in the audience is, is consuming. And, and, and so for him, he, and, and that's, that's just his 00:33:08.280 --> 00:33:14.940 spin, you know, Jate's Jate. Um, his spin was don't call me pastor. I'm just one of you people. 00:33:14.940 --> 00:33:19.100 Let's, let's do this ministry together. And I always, I always respected that. I don't, I don't, 00:33:19.100 --> 00:33:24.980 I don't know that I agree with it. Um, but I, I certainly respected his view of it. You know, 00:33:25.040 --> 00:33:30.220 Leonard Sweet, I also did a podcast with him maybe late last year. And I remember I, I was talking 00:33:30.220 --> 00:33:34.800 about, I forget the term that set him off, but it was, it was something in the priesthood of all 00:33:34.800 --> 00:33:41.040 believers like camp. Oh no, I know what it was. It was bivocational. It was, it was like a, it was a, 00:33:41.040 --> 00:33:46.800 uh, so I was talking about a bivocational pastor, somebody that's doing ministry that has a job 00:33:46.800 --> 00:33:52.300 and then was doing ministry outside of that. And, and, and he was in, in literacy was like, 00:33:52.320 --> 00:33:56.800 yeah, that's, that's, that shouldn't be a thing, Jeff. And I thought he was like trying to talk 00:33:56.800 --> 00:34:00.480 about how, you know, everybody need to go to seminary in that model. He's like, no, like you 00:34:00.480 --> 00:34:06.160 don't need to call out specialty people that are bivocational. He says, we all have the responsibility 00:34:06.160 --> 00:34:12.300 to be that. We all are carrying that, that mantle of weight of, of ministry. And so it like, 00:34:12.300 --> 00:34:17.220 he, he flipped it where we all should be doing that, not just pastors that, that are, that are 00:34:17.220 --> 00:34:22.400 bivocational. And so I love seeing, and I love seeing this, this rollout in, uh, in gaming. 00:34:23.000 --> 00:34:28.260 Let me ask, because, you know, apostles, prophets, you know, I can definitely see that in Mark. My 00:34:28.260 --> 00:34:32.400 gut is we've really drilled into Bubba. We probably would see something, uh, in, in the apostle 00:34:32.400 --> 00:34:38.620 prophet space, uh, evangelist shepherds. We, we talked some about that, uh, teachers. So he, let me, 00:34:38.620 --> 00:34:44.360 let me read the definition of teachers here. Uh, according to Alan Hirsch from the Forgotten 00:34:44.360 --> 00:34:51.100 Ways 2000 book that was written, uh, teachers understand and explain communicators of God's 00:34:51.100 --> 00:34:56.740 truth and wisdom. They help others remain biblically grounded to better discern God's will, guiding 00:34:56.740 --> 00:35:02.160 others towards wisdom, helping the community remain faithful to Christ's word and constructing 00:35:02.160 --> 00:35:09.520 a transferable doctrine. Without the input of other functions, teachers can fall into dogmatism or 00:35:09.520 --> 00:35:15.140 dry intellectualism. They may fail to see the personal or missional aspects of the church's 00:35:15.140 --> 00:35:21.440 ministry. Who's a good example or what, what does a teacher look like in, in, in gaming context? I'm 00:35:21.440 --> 00:35:30.540 curious here. Uh, you know, I think of two people and one that we have not had on the show or was on the 00:35:30.540 --> 00:35:39.180 show a while ago, Susie has a way of being able in the middle of a raid, um, to preach a sermon 00:35:39.180 --> 00:35:47.120 off the top of his head and take complex spiritual ideas and make them simple. Um, and, uh, he hasn't 00:35:47.120 --> 00:35:53.200 been in this season, but I've watched him do that in a way that was like compelling and life giving to 00:35:53.200 --> 00:35:59.200 me as after a decade in ministry, right? After a decade of listening to sermons and writing sermons and 00:35:59.200 --> 00:36:05.020 studying stuff, there's not a lot of people that I sit and listen to and I can like, they get me up out of my 00:36:05.020 --> 00:36:12.420 seat instead of make me sit there and critique. Right. And so when, when Matt has been able to do that, it has 00:36:12.420 --> 00:36:18.840 been like, yeah, like this guy can, this guy can game, read, chat, and preach a sermon off the top of his head. 00:36:18.840 --> 00:36:24.860 Um, there's some giftedness in teaching there. I think that he also flexes really well into evangelist 00:36:24.860 --> 00:36:30.200 to be fair. Um, I would say the other person that I can think of off my head, uh, uh, Zach, someone else 00:36:30.200 --> 00:36:35.300 who has not yet been on the show and we should have on at some point, which is Dustin. Um, pastor 00:36:35.300 --> 00:36:40.540 Dustin, uh, literally does like his Bible studies. What's really cool about Dustin is that there are 00:36:40.540 --> 00:36:46.060 actually a lot of people who will jump on here and they will do teaching on, on Twitch. Plenty of people 00:36:46.060 --> 00:36:53.660 that do their, their weekly sermon prep live with people. Um, or they do Bible in one year, 00:36:53.660 --> 00:36:59.840 which is what flat cap does. And he was on, on the show earlier in the season. Um, but then you have 00:36:59.840 --> 00:37:07.060 guys like Dustin who have the ability to have unbelievably great video and audio quality. I mean, 00:37:07.060 --> 00:37:13.360 it is his ideas and the way that he has a setup is just staggering. I keep saying like everyone in the 00:37:13.360 --> 00:37:18.640 space, a Christian space needs to learn from him in many ways. Um, and then he also does a lot of his 00:37:18.640 --> 00:37:23.980 sermon prep and just Bible study on stream. And it's excellent. Like he does a really, really great 00:37:23.980 --> 00:37:29.700 job at it. And then he'll also play games. And so he has the ability to flex into multiple of these 00:37:29.700 --> 00:37:33.960 things where he creates a space for fellowship and people really do come to flock just to learn from 00:37:33.960 --> 00:37:39.320 him. And I think that is one of like the major draws for his live stream is people show up in his 00:37:39.320 --> 00:37:46.200 live stream just to learn from him. Um, and that isn't the case with my live stream. So I, I, I always 00:37:46.200 --> 00:37:50.080 really appreciate that induced. Am I, who am I missing? Do you agree with that? Uh, Zach? 00:37:51.560 --> 00:37:56.960 Yeah. Deustin is the one that immediately came to mind for me. Um, I just popped into his stream 00:37:56.960 --> 00:38:03.500 the other day and he was going through a commentary, but it was like, there's like the, Hey, I got a study 00:38:03.500 --> 00:38:07.360 Bible. It's got the little notes in the bottom. And then there's like the commentaries that, 00:38:07.360 --> 00:38:12.960 you know, pastors use that have like 20 pages on one verse kind of thing. It's like a, it's a, 00:38:12.960 --> 00:38:17.780 it's a full novel just on the book of Romans. And so he's going through, I think it was the book of 00:38:17.780 --> 00:38:24.880 Romans. I might be getting that wrong. Um, and, uh, he was, he spent the full stream. It was multiple 00:38:24.880 --> 00:38:30.640 hours going through one verse and just really digesting, getting into the meat of it. Right. And so 00:38:30.640 --> 00:38:34.280 that's different and that's good. That's kind of, kind of the point, right? There's people 00:38:34.280 --> 00:38:41.600 like Jay who want to do it very conversationally and make it very, um, accessible to someone who's 00:38:41.600 --> 00:38:47.280 never read the Bible before. Um, I feel like more of the like pastoral approach is like what you see 00:38:47.280 --> 00:38:52.620 in like a church setting where it's halfway there's information, but a lot of it is meant to inspire 00:38:52.620 --> 00:38:58.240 and encourage what he's doing is like, Hey, let's do a study together. This is going to be like, 00:38:58.240 --> 00:39:03.260 this is meat. We're going to dig in. It's going to be a lot to digest. Let's really wrestle through 00:39:03.260 --> 00:39:09.980 this. And there's not a lot of people doing that. And if you're a new believer or someone who's not 00:39:09.980 --> 00:39:14.380 a Christian, that might be a harder setting for you to get plugged into though. I know he does have 00:39:14.380 --> 00:39:18.980 people in his streams that, that love that who aren't Christian, but want to hear and get into the 00:39:18.980 --> 00:39:22.520 meat of things. But yeah, being able to really get into the meat of things that way as a teacher, 00:39:22.640 --> 00:39:27.080 he does pretty uniquely. I think there's a few others, but I think he's probably got the most 00:39:27.080 --> 00:39:35.120 like, um, tenure, I guess. Uh, and like he's doing it in the most solid way. Um, to your point about 00:39:35.120 --> 00:39:41.200 like, we're just really having a well-established setup in his space and a community that gets it. 00:39:41.240 --> 00:39:45.960 And he's been doing it for a long time on a very consistent basis. So yeah, I would agree with that. 00:39:47.320 --> 00:39:50.900 Justin, what's his, what's his handle on Twitter? Where do we find, or excuse me on Twitch, 00:39:50.940 --> 00:39:51.620 where do we find them? 00:39:52.640 --> 00:39:55.080 Pastor Deustin, D-O-O-S-T-Y-N. 00:39:55.980 --> 00:39:59.920 Oh, I've seen him. That's, that's interesting. Y'all have to, I'll have to check them out. 00:40:00.480 --> 00:40:05.640 Very, very cool. Uh, and so like, but all those, it's interesting comparing Jade as a, 00:40:05.640 --> 00:40:10.060 as a teacher, conversational, Deustin, what you're describing, you know, very different. 00:40:10.420 --> 00:40:15.160 Remember, even for the audience, like contextualization is so important. The people 00:40:15.160 --> 00:40:20.900 that Jade are going to reach with Jade's model of, of conversational relational is completely 00:40:20.900 --> 00:40:26.740 different than the people that, that pastor Deustin is going to reach, uh, with, with his, um, with, 00:40:26.840 --> 00:40:31.720 with his approach. And so it's not that one's bad or better than the other or one's wrong, 00:40:31.780 --> 00:40:37.220 one's right. It's they're both serving their purpose for the, for the kingdom to connect with 00:40:37.220 --> 00:40:44.140 those different types of audiences. So I, I, I love that. Um, what is the, is there one of these, 00:40:44.240 --> 00:40:50.180 is there one of these that's more difficult in, in gaming environments, like discord, 00:40:50.180 --> 00:40:55.960 relationally connecting or, or, or Twitch? Like, is, is there one that's just more challenging 00:40:55.960 --> 00:41:04.040 than the other? Hmm. So between apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor, teacher, um, yeah, I'm just 00:41:04.040 --> 00:41:10.000 curious. I mean, I, I think the space lends itself. I agree with Zach and the fact that he said, 00:41:10.000 --> 00:41:15.440 like the entire place feels apostolic, right? Because it is so new and so future thinking, 00:41:15.440 --> 00:41:21.640 like there is nobody in this space that got in here, um, because they, there are some of us who've 00:41:21.640 --> 00:41:25.800 been inspired by others, but there's nobody who's getting in here because they're a late adopter, 00:41:25.800 --> 00:41:35.220 right? Like there, every one of us are either like really early adopters or like first people. Um, 00:41:35.220 --> 00:41:41.280 and so because of that, it feels very apostolic period. Um, I would say that 00:41:41.280 --> 00:41:48.040 it's really interesting. I think that it really lends itself heavily to evangelists too, because 00:41:48.040 --> 00:41:53.200 most of us have just a heart and a love for people in this community and we want to see them come to 00:41:53.200 --> 00:41:58.880 Jesus. And it is such an unreached people group that you really can't get away from that. Like there's 00:41:58.880 --> 00:42:04.020 not a lot of people who are like, I just really want to care for Christians. Um, and so they decide 00:42:04.020 --> 00:42:08.720 to start a Twitch stream. Why? Because we all know the reality is that you're going to get lots of 00:42:08.720 --> 00:42:13.740 people who aren't Christians coming into your Twitch stream, very likely. And so it feels very 00:42:13.740 --> 00:42:19.440 evangelistic in that way as well. I think maybe the voice of the prophet is one of the harder ones 00:42:19.440 --> 00:42:25.380 to find a place in this, in the space. Although your definition of profit, not so much because you 00:42:25.380 --> 00:42:30.860 really were talking about like challenging the status quo. I don't think that you can get into this 00:42:30.860 --> 00:42:34.720 space without having at least a little bit of fire in your belly and wanting to challenge the status 00:42:34.720 --> 00:42:40.020 quo. Right. You kind of have to be, you have to be a little nutty to be honest with you, to, 00:42:40.180 --> 00:42:47.020 to be actively in this space as a Christian, trying to influence people towards Jesus. Like it's just 00:42:47.020 --> 00:42:53.040 openly hostile towards Christians. So, um, I'd love to know your thoughts on it, Zach. I feel like all of 00:42:53.040 --> 00:42:57.120 them have a very clear place once you get to know the environment. 00:42:58.320 --> 00:43:07.560 I think, um, the things we probably have the most of and that feel the most obvious are evangelist. 00:43:08.140 --> 00:43:14.520 Um, I think we have people that are trying to, that are doing the apostolic element. I think 00:43:14.520 --> 00:43:19.500 the profit element feels very important because whenever you're going and contextualizing to a 00:43:19.500 --> 00:43:27.940 new space, um, having someone who's challenging those people to stay on target and to not have any, 00:43:27.940 --> 00:43:35.180 um, mission drift in that space, um, to stay true to the gospel. I just think it can become really easy, 00:43:35.180 --> 00:43:40.980 especially when you're doing a mission. Um, that is also something you love to do, 00:43:40.980 --> 00:43:44.920 right? Cause people are doing this because they like gaming. If you didn't like gaming, 00:43:44.920 --> 00:43:49.600 I, there are some people that get into the space purely missionally and don't like gaming 00:43:49.600 --> 00:43:53.560 and they really struggle because people see right through that and they can tell that you're, 00:43:53.620 --> 00:43:58.520 you're disingenuous about the space you're in. Um, and so I think within that, it's really 00:43:58.520 --> 00:44:03.320 important to have people who can help everyone keep, uh, you know, avoid mission drift, stay on 00:44:03.320 --> 00:44:09.340 target, make sure that we're holding true to the gospel, um, not sacrificing truth for the sake of, 00:44:09.340 --> 00:44:15.700 uh, reaching a new context more effectively or trying to evangelize better, um, not watering down. 00:44:15.700 --> 00:44:19.880 And so I see that role as being really important and probably something that we could even use more 00:44:19.880 --> 00:44:26.380 of, um, just being able to kind of keep that check and balance and teacher, I think is probably like 00:44:26.380 --> 00:44:33.260 probably the part that is the piece of the equation we have yet to really nail down is the effective 00:44:33.260 --> 00:44:39.060 discipleship part. Like you've gotten someone who says, I want to be a Christian, help me walk through 00:44:39.060 --> 00:44:43.620 that. Uh, I think Jade does it well. I think everyone is figuring it out, but really having 00:44:43.620 --> 00:44:50.960 good tools in place to then really teach them and start offering them meat to chew on, I think is an 00:44:50.960 --> 00:44:56.100 area that there's still a lot of room for growth. Um, and for people that can do it better, 00:44:56.200 --> 00:45:04.640 better tools to do it with, um, yeah. My, you know what my, my hope is, and, and, uh, it's 00:45:04.640 --> 00:45:09.500 interesting. I'm going to tie this in. My, my hope is that, you know, vendors and resources like, 00:45:09.500 --> 00:45:14.680 like plain Joe and, and, and some others that are out there start developing, you know, tools and 00:45:14.680 --> 00:45:21.020 systems to better allow for, uh, Jay and the crew like that to develop, you know, there there's the 00:45:21.020 --> 00:45:25.180 idea of, which is one of the reasons why I champion the idea of digital discipleship so much right now, 00:45:25.180 --> 00:45:31.840 because that's, that's, that's the missing piece to really blow open the doors on digital church, 00:45:31.880 --> 00:45:37.400 on gaming church, on virtual reality church, uh, to, to once we can really start to have some tools 00:45:37.400 --> 00:45:44.360 and resources to help, uh, create a more stable disciple in, in digital space. Um, this has been 00:45:44.360 --> 00:45:47.940 a great conversation. Like, you know, I've, I've loved hanging out with St. Bear. I've loved hanging 00:45:47.940 --> 00:45:54.480 out with Mark, the lift and, uh, definitely, uh, excited about, um, you know, what's coming up here. 00:45:54.480 --> 00:45:58.960 Even as we're looking ahead to what's, what's in store for, uh, for, for the gaming church, 00:45:58.960 --> 00:46:03.840 as, as we're landing the plane here, um, uh, Mark, any closing thoughts on your side? 00:46:04.640 --> 00:46:11.040 No, I don't think so. I think this has been a really great look at how, um, I think it's just 00:46:11.040 --> 00:46:17.000 been a really great look at how, like the very same things that we look at inside of physical church 00:46:17.000 --> 00:46:24.420 and in church planting are vibrant, alive and well inside of this space as well. And I think that for 00:46:24.420 --> 00:46:28.980 me, that's just encouraging. And hopefully it's encouraging to you. If you're listening in and 00:46:28.980 --> 00:46:34.000 you're a physical church pastor and you're trying to figure out what are the differences between what 00:46:34.000 --> 00:46:38.020 we're talking about here digitally and what you're doing, you'll begin to notice that God doesn't 00:46:38.020 --> 00:46:44.500 use different skill sets because the platform changed. Uh, he, he continues to give the church 00:46:44.500 --> 00:46:51.280 the same tools and we continue, you use those tools in new ways. Um, and it's just so cool to see the, 00:46:51.280 --> 00:46:57.900 the 2000 year old, you know, giftedness that Christ has given the church over and over again, 00:46:57.900 --> 00:47:00.940 continue to play out to reach new people. And I love that. 00:47:02.480 --> 00:47:08.560 Would you say, Mark, just real quick, quick answer. Um, would you feel that you have a pest or 00:47:08.560 --> 00:47:13.440 fourfold, um, represented within your Lux leadership right now? 00:47:13.920 --> 00:47:18.100 Oh yeah, absolutely. Yep. Uh, like inside you're like, you're intentional again. 00:47:18.200 --> 00:47:23.540 Yeah. Inside our church. Yeah. We identify that stuff. We do our best to identify that stuff pretty 00:47:23.540 --> 00:47:28.740 early on looking at the larger scale picture, Jeff. I think that it's easier to pick those things out 00:47:28.740 --> 00:47:34.200 because people's giftedness is just wildly on display. Um, and in some cases, but absolutely 00:47:34.200 --> 00:47:38.740 you see that come out. And as we're doing leadership development inside of our own church with our own 00:47:38.740 --> 00:47:41.680 dream team right now, we're actually seeing that pop off even more. 00:47:42.580 --> 00:47:47.120 Love it. Um, Hey, uh, St. Bears, we're wrapping up here. Any closing thoughts on your side? 00:47:48.660 --> 00:47:52.940 Yeah, I just, I would, I would agree with what Mark was saying. I think it's really encouraging. 00:47:53.720 --> 00:47:58.040 It's easy to look at this space and be like, why, you know, it's new. Why do we have to reinvent 00:47:58.040 --> 00:48:03.120 what the church had been doing for 2000 years? Um, why can't we just let a good thing be a good thing? 00:48:03.560 --> 00:48:08.280 And to Mark's point, I would argue we're doing the same thing that's been being done for 2000 years. 00:48:08.280 --> 00:48:14.160 Um, the church has always been about taking the gospel and offering it to new contexts and doing 00:48:14.160 --> 00:48:21.800 that in ways that hold true, taking the same skills and, um, and giftings. Um, and so we're just trying 00:48:21.800 --> 00:48:27.320 to do what the church has been doing for the past 2000 years, um, with this nerd culture context in 00:48:27.320 --> 00:48:31.700 mind. And so that to me is really helpful. It's really grounding and it's good to be rooted in that. 00:48:31.760 --> 00:48:36.000 And I think it's helpful to see some of the tangible ways that that's true. Um, and I think it's really 00:48:36.000 --> 00:48:41.560 beautiful for people like me who aren't feel, don't, don't feel called to be pastors or, uh, to be 00:48:41.560 --> 00:48:46.060 generally the person in front of the camera to help people see how, you know, they don't have to think 00:48:46.060 --> 00:48:50.480 of themselves as like, quote unquote, just a lay person. They have a, an important role to play. 00:48:51.200 --> 00:48:55.640 Um, and it can, they can be kind of out to the box and what that looks like as a behind the scenes 00:48:55.640 --> 00:48:57.160 role sometimes. 00:48:58.160 --> 00:49:02.780 St. Bear, what are you, what do you consider yourself? We didn't, we didn't ask, uh, apostle, prophet, evangelist. 00:49:02.780 --> 00:49:03.540 Oh, I don't know. 00:49:04.920 --> 00:49:14.280 I, uh, again, I learned what apest was fairly recently. If I had to guess, uh, I'd be curious if, if Mark has a 00:49:14.280 --> 00:49:19.720 take on this, but if I had to guess the closest would be a shepherd. When I think of like a project manager, uh, 00:49:19.720 --> 00:49:25.440 which is kind of the heart of who I am in a lot of my life, I feel like, uh, that's someone who kind of shepherds 00:49:25.440 --> 00:49:29.060 a community of people and shepherds a story. So. 00:49:31.200 --> 00:49:32.120 Interesting. I agree. 00:49:32.120 --> 00:49:37.380 Caregiver of the community. They focus on the protection and spiritual maturity of God's flock, 00:49:37.920 --> 00:49:44.480 cultivating a loving and spiritual mature network of relationship making and relationships making and 00:49:44.480 --> 00:49:50.080 developing disciples. So interesting. I could see that. Awesome. I'll take it. Well, I tell you what, 00:49:50.100 --> 00:49:54.960 we're going to land. Yeah, you take it. This is, this is great. St. Bear, the shepherd, um, 00:49:55.600 --> 00:50:00.900 bear and shepherd are two separate images into itself. So maybe we can dig back into that one later, 00:50:00.900 --> 00:50:04.660 but that's a conversation for a different day. So, Hey guys, we're going to land the plane, 00:50:04.660 --> 00:50:10.660 uh, short conversation today, but, but at the heart really wanted to explore the idea of maybe 00:50:10.660 --> 00:50:14.820 there's nothing new under the sun. You know, what we're, what we're doing in these gaming communities. 00:50:14.820 --> 00:50:19.600 We were really, you know, to quote DJ Soto, we're not trying to reinvent the church. We're trying to 00:50:19.600 --> 00:50:26.940 reimagine what it can be in biblical context. And so we're not creating the something new, um, 00:50:26.940 --> 00:50:32.700 we're, we're re-imagining it and, and imagining what it can look like in these gaming contexts. 00:50:32.700 --> 00:50:36.440 And so, Hey, this has been a great conversation. I want to thank St. Bear. I want to thank Mark 00:50:36.440 --> 00:50:41.420 for jumping on the podcast. I want to thank my wife for delivering smoothie King literally right here 00:50:41.420 --> 00:50:46.900 to my, my desk as we're wrapping up this podcast here. So you've been listening to the church digital 00:50:46.900 --> 00:50:53.660 podcast. We do this Thursdays, uh, 3 PM Eastern. And so, Hey, we're, I think we're wrapping up the season, 00:50:53.660 --> 00:50:58.580 Jesus gamers in church next week. Uh, so come celebrate what's happening. Come check out the 00:50:58.580 --> 00:51:03.660 closure, uh, and some things that, that we'll be talking about next week here with Jesus gamers 00:51:03.660 --> 00:51:09.120 in church Thursdays, 3 PM on Twitch. And of course you can find us at the church digital podcast, 00:51:09.220 --> 00:51:14.840 the church that digital slash podcast to subscribe to that podcast moving forward. Thanks y'all. 00:51:14.840 --> 00:51:16.840 Thanks for being here and, uh, y'all have a good day.