WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:04.840 Welcome to the Church Digital Podcast. Through this podcast, we'll talk about the technological 00:00:04.840 --> 00:00:10.920 innovations within the church. But more than tech for tech itself, we'll address deeper questions. 00:00:11.740 --> 00:00:16.640 Is disciple-making possible digitally? How should we approach the digital mission field? 00:00:17.420 --> 00:00:22.440 Can a biblically grounded church operate in digital space? Oh, and where does the metaverse 00:00:22.440 --> 00:00:27.920 fit into all this? Whether you're a big or small church, an established church, or a startup church 00:00:27.920 --> 00:00:33.840 plant. The Church Digital's goal is to help churches like yours learn to be a multiplying church, 00:00:34.460 --> 00:00:40.460 digitally and physically. Our heart? That churches like yours will discover a newfound focus on 00:00:40.460 --> 00:00:46.800 disciple-making that will revolutionize your church. And now, here's your host, Jeff Reed. 00:00:47.340 --> 00:00:51.460 Hey, everybody. Welcome to the Church Digital Podcast. Jeff Reed here, once again, founder of 00:00:51.460 --> 00:00:55.840 the Church Digital, co-founder, Digital Church Network. And oh, by the way, I work for Leadership 00:00:55.840 --> 00:01:02.700 Network, which is completely relevant right here, right off the top, because we're bringing in a 00:01:02.700 --> 00:01:07.680 guy that historically has done some work with Leadership Network. And I'm really excited about 00:01:07.680 --> 00:01:13.800 this conversation we're going to get into. Now, Neil Cole, who is the guest on today's show, 00:01:14.200 --> 00:01:20.620 wrote a book that was hugely influential in my life. We had Leonard Sweet on a couple months ago, 00:01:20.820 --> 00:01:26.380 talking about Soul Tsunami, which was another one of these books that really just hit me at the right 00:01:26.380 --> 00:01:32.760 time. And Neil Cole's Church 3.0. Man, listen, if you're going to ask me which one was more 00:01:32.760 --> 00:01:38.040 influential, Neil Cole or Leonard Sweet, I'm going to have a hard time answering that question. My wife 00:01:38.040 --> 00:01:43.760 would probably say Leonard Sweet. I think when we really look at the decentralized mindset of really 00:01:43.760 --> 00:01:49.480 what's come, especially now in this post-COVID environment, as we're seeing where digital and 00:01:49.480 --> 00:01:57.920 metaverse church plants get out there. Man, Neil Cole and Church 3.0 was incredible. And so it was 00:01:57.920 --> 00:02:03.280 funny, on Facebook, just even a couple weeks ago, I was having a conversation about some of the things 00:02:03.280 --> 00:02:09.460 in Neil Cole's book. We'll get into this Church 3.0 that was published 2010. I guess it's been a minute 00:02:09.460 --> 00:02:14.300 since it's been around. And it's still getting talked about on social media. And so I'm reliving 00:02:14.300 --> 00:02:18.440 some of this and digging in with some other microchurch guys. And it just occurred to me, 00:02:18.520 --> 00:02:24.760 why don't we get Neil Cole on the podcast? And Neil was gracious enough to actually say yes to the 00:02:24.760 --> 00:02:29.660 conversation. And so, ladies and gentlemen, I want to invite Neil Cole into the conversation. 00:02:29.800 --> 00:02:30.920 Hey, Neil, how are you doing today? 00:02:31.460 --> 00:02:34.320 I'm doing good. Thank you, Jeff, for inviting me. 00:02:34.740 --> 00:02:39.580 Awesome. It's a pleasure to have you on here. And I'm so excited. I'm so giddy 00:02:39.580 --> 00:02:43.620 right now about this. I can feel myself like talking way too fast. I feel like I'm the 00:02:43.620 --> 00:02:47.920 micromachines guy, just rolling, rolling, rolling. But I got to slow it down a little bit. So I 00:02:47.920 --> 00:02:52.520 apologize. But this is an honor to have you on. Also bringing into the conversation, 00:02:53.260 --> 00:03:00.400 Jason Morris, JMO, formerly from Westside Family, from Resi and Pushpay. Jason, thanks for jumping on. 00:03:01.520 --> 00:03:04.680 Yeah, it's an honor to be a part of this conversation. Can't wait. 00:03:05.240 --> 00:03:13.440 So Neil Cole's book was very formative in my life. And I'll set this up and we'll actually get into the 00:03:13.440 --> 00:03:20.520 conversation. But coming off of a megachurch environment, reading that book in my early 30s, 00:03:20.660 --> 00:03:25.940 seeing some of the opportunities of the mega and the multi, but also seeing some of the obstacles and 00:03:25.940 --> 00:03:33.120 challenges of that. Neil's book 3.0 was written in 2010, probably before, definitely before its time. 00:03:33.320 --> 00:03:38.180 Like today is actually a day where I think Neil's book is powerful and impactful. It was almost a 00:03:38.180 --> 00:03:45.460 profit early on when he was talking about this stuff because it was so forward thinking, but not yet 00:03:45.460 --> 00:03:50.620 really, I don't know, attainable, achievable, whatever the verb you want to throw there is. 00:03:51.320 --> 00:03:56.560 And so it was just a very powerful book. It was published by Leadership Network at the time. And 00:03:56.560 --> 00:04:01.940 there's so many other titles under Ellen that came out in that season. Like even when I think back to 00:04:01.940 --> 00:04:06.940 when I had the bookstore, which is a whole other story, some of the books that were published and 00:04:06.940 --> 00:04:12.540 some of the opportunities we had to help churches through it. But Neil, I would love to maybe just 00:04:12.540 --> 00:04:18.900 open up with you here as you look back on church 3.0 and there's, there's plenty of other books we 00:04:18.900 --> 00:04:26.260 can dig into. Organic church was awesome as well. Others that, that, that you hit on. Um, what is 00:04:26.260 --> 00:04:34.320 the, when you think back on church 3.0, is it, is it fond memories? Is it frustrating memories? Like 00:04:34.320 --> 00:04:40.680 this is a decade plus down the road. What's your knee jerk thought when you think about, uh, 00:04:40.680 --> 00:04:46.260 the experience and maybe some of the response when it comes to, uh, church 3.0, the book? 00:04:46.420 --> 00:04:53.980 Well, yeah, mostly it's positive. Um, I, uh, writing the book was really kind of a fun thing. I had a 00:04:53.980 --> 00:05:02.200 contract with a deadline and it was coming quick and, uh, and that's a book that required a whole lot of 00:05:02.200 --> 00:05:11.580 research. You had to have lots of, uh, footnotes of, of things. And it couldn't just be, uh, cursory 00:05:11.580 --> 00:05:17.040 footnotes. So you kind of had to dig deep in order to substantiate what you were claiming it, or you were 00:05:17.040 --> 00:05:24.760 going to get laughed out of the building. So, uh, I asked the Lord to help me with that. And he did, 00:05:24.820 --> 00:05:32.100 uh, he brought research right to me from all kinds of angles in different places. And I even had some 00:05:32.100 --> 00:05:41.760 like, like this was the, uh, there's a part where I talk about multi-site in the book and the multi-site 00:05:41.760 --> 00:05:47.960 was a big, uh, phenomenon at the time. However, there wasn't any, it wasn't going long enough that 00:05:47.960 --> 00:05:55.060 there were any books on it. And lo and behold, right when I'm writing on that chapter, a, a pre-published 00:05:55.060 --> 00:06:04.960 manuscript shows up in my mailbox on multi-site for an endorsement. And so I had current data 00:06:04.960 --> 00:06:13.080 on multi-site before it was even published. And I had a guy come to my door who, uh, was here to fix 00:06:13.080 --> 00:06:18.440 plumbing. And he had a story that ended up in the book. It was like, I asked God for help and he said, 00:06:18.520 --> 00:06:24.060 here you go. And he just kept bringing me all the information I needed when I needed it. So that 00:06:24.060 --> 00:06:31.560 was a real fond memory. I wrote the book basically to answer every question I always get asked about 00:06:31.560 --> 00:06:40.180 organic church, but I used the book as an excuse to talk about movements. And, and so the book is 00:06:40.180 --> 00:06:47.980 really about movements, but it also, it's in the form of question and answer. Um, so that's, that's all 00:06:47.980 --> 00:06:54.660 fond memories. We were doing it. Our, our movement was doubling every year during that time. Uh, and 00:06:54.660 --> 00:07:02.800 still to this day, it's gone beyond that, uh, all over the world. Uh, but yeah, no, mostly all fond 00:07:02.800 --> 00:07:09.460 memories of the book. Um, and I enjoyed my relationship with leadership network. I have four books that came out 00:07:09.460 --> 00:07:17.300 with them. Um, and this was the second one. So it was, there was organic church that I remember, uh, 00:07:17.300 --> 00:07:23.180 church 3.0. What were the other two? I'm just curious. Church transfusion, uh, which I coauthored 00:07:23.180 --> 00:07:30.220 with the shepherd on my APES team, uh, about how to bring, um, missional DNA and multiplication 00:07:30.220 --> 00:07:37.020 to an established church, uh, traditional church. Nobody's very few have read that book. And they 00:07:37.020 --> 00:07:43.980 don't think of me as even believing that's possible. Uh, but I did write a book about doing it. So 00:07:43.980 --> 00:07:52.220 it was refuted by the facts, but anyway, and then I also wrote what some people believe to be my best 00:07:52.220 --> 00:08:01.560 book ever was journeys with them. But that, um, that book was so not read that it went out of print 00:08:01.560 --> 00:08:06.740 almost a few years after it was put out. So I've bought, I've gotten back the rights from leadership 00:08:06.740 --> 00:08:15.060 network. I've revised it. I changed it to reach a more younger audience and, um, it's in the hands 00:08:15.060 --> 00:08:20.560 of the editor right now. So I hope by summer it's out. Oh, that's cool. So, so you're republishing, 00:08:20.560 --> 00:08:25.700 uh, journeys, uh, re-releasing it and, and you reshaped it to reach a younger audience. 00:08:25.940 --> 00:08:31.520 Exactly. Very, very cool. So let's, let's talk a little bit, you know, what you said, uh, church 00:08:31.520 --> 00:08:37.980 3.0 aimed a lot at movement and, uh, through, you don't know this, but with digital church network, 00:08:38.080 --> 00:08:43.360 the nonprofit that, that I started Jason's working with, we're actually working very closely with 00:08:43.360 --> 00:08:49.760 new thing network to utilizing their movement system, uh, helping by vocational people, normal 00:08:49.760 --> 00:08:54.400 people like nine to five people, not seminary trained pastors, learn how to create disciples, 00:08:54.860 --> 00:09:00.100 uh, grow them into leaders that are planting churches that are developing networks and starting 00:09:00.100 --> 00:09:07.660 movements. And so we're, when we look at digital metaverse space, we actually see movement and the 00:09:07.660 --> 00:09:14.280 opportunity to contextualize movement, to reach people that are not interested in going into physical 00:09:14.280 --> 00:09:18.680 buildings. That's the, that's really the heart of, of what we're trying to do through 00:09:18.960 --> 00:09:23.800 digital church network. I would love to hear a little bit, talk to me a little bit about your 00:09:23.800 --> 00:09:29.200 movement, the movement that you were doing during the time that you wrote the book, what that maybe 00:09:29.200 --> 00:09:35.040 has grown to and evolved to now. Uh, obviously it's not digital or maybe it's probably not digital, 00:09:35.040 --> 00:09:38.760 but tell me a little bit about what that looks like, you know, even today. 00:09:39.340 --> 00:09:43.460 Well, certainly there are digital components to it. There's interaction, there's, uh, 00:09:43.920 --> 00:09:49.660 training online, things like that, but no, I wouldn't say we're a digital church expression 00:09:49.660 --> 00:09:57.560 yet. Um, or I shouldn't say, no, there's not, there probably is that, but it's not foremost or 00:09:57.560 --> 00:10:05.640 prominent. Um, not yet at least. So the movement has spread. We were doubling every year for a while. 00:10:05.640 --> 00:10:13.480 And I think, um, uh, it's continued at that pace, but I can't verify that. So that's just a gut 00:10:13.480 --> 00:10:20.100 feeling. Um, I'd have to hire, I would have had to early on hire someone full-time just to track the 00:10:20.100 --> 00:10:28.520 churches. And I never, I never, I never thought that was a worthwhile expense. So we just gave up on 00:10:28.520 --> 00:10:34.940 that. Another thing we did early on is we decided not to put a brand on everything and not to, uh, 00:10:34.940 --> 00:10:42.960 monetize the movement, which, uh, I think God honored that and allowed the movement to spread like it did. 00:10:42.960 --> 00:10:51.280 But at the same time, without doing that, those steps, uh, it meant some of us behind the scenes 00:10:51.280 --> 00:10:56.480 would, would probably be more vulnerable to financial problems and things like that. 00:10:57.340 --> 00:11:05.940 We swallowed that pill. Uh, interesting thing to hear is that, uh, 12 years ago journeys came out 00:11:05.940 --> 00:11:12.140 that book I just talked about. It's, it's following the whole story of Paul from birth to death and 00:11:12.140 --> 00:11:18.200 looking at how he evolved as a leader so that he finished strong. It's about spiritual formation, 00:11:18.200 --> 00:11:25.260 but also showing you the lessons he learned to catalyze greater movements and spread further till he's, 00:11:26.160 --> 00:11:32.660 uh, reaching the whole world basically. Um, so that's journeys. And when that book came out, 00:11:32.660 --> 00:11:36.760 it's always a special moment for the author. When the book comes in the mail and you actually hold it 00:11:36.760 --> 00:11:43.100 in your hand for the first time. And that moment I received that book, I held it in my hand at that 00:11:43.100 --> 00:11:48.680 very moment. I heard this Holy spirit speak to me saying, I'm going to take you through a difficult 00:11:48.760 --> 00:11:55.120 transition. He didn't tell me how long it would be. He didn't tell me why he didn't tell me what it would 00:11:55.120 --> 00:12:02.100 look like, but immediately, uh, things fell into place where funding dropped out and that was supposed 00:12:02.100 --> 00:12:09.260 to be there. And we had to let go of my staff and, uh, we had to close our offices. We closed our website 00:12:09.260 --> 00:12:15.060 down. We shut down the entire business of CMA, which stood for church multiplication associates, 00:12:15.060 --> 00:12:23.240 which I found it. And we basically pulled the plug on our organization. Now, because we had made the 00:12:23.240 --> 00:12:29.720 decision to not monetize the movement and not branded and, and not make it dependent upon our 00:12:29.720 --> 00:12:37.340 organization. Uh, the movement thrived when the business collapsed. Uh, so that was a good move. 00:12:37.760 --> 00:12:46.220 Yeah. And, uh, uh, uh, this transition that he brought me through is 12 years and it just ended 00:12:46.220 --> 00:12:53.640 last summer. So, uh, for 12 years, he told me not to speak at conferences publicly, not to, um, 00:12:54.360 --> 00:13:02.340 stop doing social media except he allowed me to post pictures of waterfalls in my travels or pictures 00:13:02.340 --> 00:13:09.580 of beautiful grandkids, but no content. Sure. Uh, I could travel and do training and conferences 00:13:09.580 --> 00:13:17.020 anywhere in the world, except the United States. I even could do a training across the border in Canada 00:13:17.020 --> 00:13:24.260 that I couldn't do in the other side. So it was kind of, it was kind of weird, but he shut me 00:13:24.260 --> 00:13:32.980 down, put me on pause for 12 years. I could not find a job. Uh, I applied to, I applied to one job 00:13:32.980 --> 00:13:38.260 that probably there are three people in the world that are as qualified as I am for the job. 00:13:38.560 --> 00:13:44.900 And I told him I do it for half the price and I still didn't get the job. So it was a weird thing. 00:13:44.940 --> 00:13:53.880 I even applied for Walmart to stock shelves and couldn't get a job there. Um, so it was, uh, a weird time. 00:13:53.880 --> 00:14:01.080 God was saying, no, I don't want you to work. I don't want you to, uh, do anything public except 00:14:01.080 --> 00:14:06.740 overseas, but in the States. And that went on after seven years. I thought, okay, seven is a perfect 00:14:06.740 --> 00:14:12.800 number. Now it's time for it to end. It didn't end. And after, after 10 years, I said, okay, Paul has 00:14:12.800 --> 00:14:19.100 spent 10 years in Tarsus. I did my 10 years. Is it up? He said, no. Then COVID hit and it was 12 years. 00:14:20.360 --> 00:14:26.200 So it was 12 years of being on pause. And there's a lot of probably, there's a lot of reasons behind 00:14:26.200 --> 00:14:33.400 that, but I was allowed to continue writing books and did so. Um, but the sales of my books dropped 00:14:33.400 --> 00:14:34.340 off considerably. 00:14:35.400 --> 00:14:40.640 What was, and I don't want to get too deep if this is too sensitive, but what was the, what was the 00:14:40.640 --> 00:14:46.140 main lesson? What was the, what was the thing that, that God was, was, if you're comfortable 00:14:46.140 --> 00:14:49.300 sharing this, that, that God was trying to tell you through, through 12 years? 00:14:49.700 --> 00:14:51.520 Yeah. Cause you said you came out of it. 00:14:51.960 --> 00:14:52.240 Yeah. 00:14:52.500 --> 00:14:59.700 So, you know, I think both Jeff and I have had those, um, dark moments of the soul. 00:15:00.600 --> 00:15:07.740 I'm grateful that it didn't last for 12 years, you know, but, you know, I understand the feeling 00:15:07.740 --> 00:15:16.160 and wanting it to be over and God, you know, asking you to hang on a little bit longer, man. 00:15:16.560 --> 00:15:23.380 One thing, you know, is impressive to me is like, I think there's few people in the world 00:15:23.380 --> 00:15:32.200 that God wouldn't trust 12 years to of that. You know, that says a lot for you. Cause I know 00:15:32.200 --> 00:15:33.560 I probably couldn't handle it. 00:15:34.200 --> 00:15:38.220 I haven't really thought of it like that. I just simply, well, you know, you go through 00:15:38.220 --> 00:15:43.800 the human things, you start thinking, well, what did I do wrong, Lord? And he would always 00:15:43.800 --> 00:15:48.580 respond by saying, no, no, this is not discipline. Although if you want to clean this up, you can, 00:15:48.640 --> 00:15:55.400 and you could fix this if you want, there's always room for improvement, but this was not 00:15:55.400 --> 00:15:59.640 about discipline. And then I'd say, well, okay, what's the lesson Lord? Just tell me the lesson 00:15:59.640 --> 00:16:04.540 so we can end this. And he says, well, it's not that kind of lesson. Uh, but if you want, 00:16:04.620 --> 00:16:10.940 here's some things you can learn, but that's not what this is about. Um, in the end, I think 00:16:10.940 --> 00:16:16.520 it really was about, you know, he says, Jesus says in John 15, those who are bearing fruit, 00:16:16.780 --> 00:16:27.200 he will prune so that they will bear more fruit. And so really it was about, uh, working on in my 00:16:27.200 --> 00:16:36.460 life to created me a different kind of, uh, maybe a different sort of, uh, it sounds almost trite to 00:16:36.460 --> 00:16:42.000 say maturity level, but it's sort of more of a perspective of the world and of myself that is, 00:16:42.300 --> 00:16:48.060 that is, uh, necessary for what's coming. And I'll tell you something, I'm working a lot with young 00:16:48.060 --> 00:16:52.580 people. Wait, wait, wait, I got to stop there for a minute. You say necessary for what's coming. 00:16:53.300 --> 00:16:58.520 You know, a lot of, I feel like the things that you've written have been highly prophetic 00:16:58.520 --> 00:17:06.020 before their time. So when you say prepares for what's coming, my ears perk up. Cause I want to 00:17:06.020 --> 00:17:11.100 know what that is. And maybe we can put a pin in that so you can finish your thing, but we need to 00:17:11.100 --> 00:17:16.700 get back to that. We'll bring it back up again. You know, I work right now with a lot of young 00:17:16.700 --> 00:17:21.780 people, even college students. And when I tell them this happened for 12 years, imagine from their 00:17:21.780 --> 00:17:27.540 point of view. Uh, that's like, that's more than half their life, half their life. 00:17:30.000 --> 00:17:36.600 So it was a, it was a long time, but it was worthwhile, I think. And, um, I've come out of 00:17:36.600 --> 00:17:42.100 it a little different, you know, I'm, I'm less impressed by some people and more aware of others 00:17:42.100 --> 00:17:54.000 that I normally wouldn't have been. I cry more easily. I, um, I think I'm, um, uh, I'll tell you 00:17:54.000 --> 00:18:00.980 something. When all that happened, we had, we started off that 12 years, we had saved, uh, almost 00:18:00.980 --> 00:18:06.660 $20,000 because my daughters were getting at marriage age and they were both getting close to 00:18:06.660 --> 00:18:13.280 that. So we were saving up for the weddings and, uh, all that disappeared, uh, within a 00:18:13.280 --> 00:18:20.420 summer trying to support staff and stuff as we found, move them on. And then there's a lot 00:18:20.420 --> 00:18:24.980 of things happen where there's this debt that would have been minimal for the organization 00:18:24.980 --> 00:18:30.500 and are all transferred to me. So I went from having savings to having the debt of the same 00:18:30.500 --> 00:18:39.240 amount. Um, but for those 12 years, there's not a single bill that was never paid on time 00:18:39.240 --> 00:18:45.320 and the weddings were beautiful. I couldn't have paid any more money to make them better. 00:18:45.840 --> 00:18:51.660 Uh, that it was a wonderful experience. And out of it all, I came out a different person. In fact, 00:18:51.720 --> 00:18:58.600 one of the things that changed me the most is, uh, I went from zero to five grandkids in three 00:18:58.600 --> 00:19:07.480 years and putting on grandpa, what we call what my kids call Papa, um, my grandkids, I became Papa. 00:19:07.840 --> 00:19:13.300 It felt like that was a role I was born to do that. I didn't even realize until it happened. 00:19:14.360 --> 00:19:20.800 So all of that came out of that 12 years. It was all worthwhile. Um, I wouldn't wish it on anyone, 00:19:20.800 --> 00:19:27.160 but the results I think are good. I think things that are to come, um, 00:19:27.400 --> 00:19:36.300 um, that God has been, uh, you know, it says in the Bible that judgment begins in the household of 00:19:36.300 --> 00:19:42.900 God. And so there's been a judgment going on for the past three to five years where he's lifting the 00:19:42.900 --> 00:19:47.480 roof off of the church and turning the light and shining it down and saying, here's what's actually 00:19:47.480 --> 00:19:53.240 happening in these churches. And so the largest denominations are being exposed for a lot of ugly 00:19:53.240 --> 00:19:59.620 things. The largest church, the most prolific large church in America was, leadership was exposed. 00:19:59.800 --> 00:20:04.720 The largest church in the world, the pastor was arrested. The largest church in Singapore, 00:20:04.720 --> 00:20:10.800 the pastor was arrested. The largest church in Australia. All it goes, it just keeps going. 00:20:11.140 --> 00:20:17.260 Uh, all of this is God's judgmental household of God. And I think we're coming to the end of that. 00:20:17.480 --> 00:20:23.360 I think that's been done. And next is an awakening of young people. And it's going to be a movement 00:20:23.360 --> 00:20:27.600 where it's going to be carried on the shoulders of young people. I believe it will be like 00:20:27.600 --> 00:20:33.940 similar to the Jesus people movement. And ironically, right now there's a movie out at the movie theaters 00:20:33.940 --> 00:20:37.940 about the Jesus people movement. I know my wife and I are going to watch it tonight. 00:20:38.280 --> 00:20:46.020 I think we are seeing a birth of something new, but I don't think the, the new wine will be, 00:20:46.020 --> 00:20:51.440 will be thrust into the old wine skins, like what happened with the Jesus people movement. 00:20:53.220 --> 00:21:01.220 And, uh, I think that they will have different language, different, although alternative, 00:21:01.560 --> 00:21:07.080 they will still be spiritual values that come from truth and love, but they will look very 00:21:07.080 --> 00:21:12.840 different in the way they behave to the way our, our parents and grandparents, their, their parents 00:21:12.840 --> 00:21:17.100 and grandparents behaved as Christians. I think their language will be more coarse. 00:21:17.980 --> 00:21:25.960 I think they will, uh, not be as upset about someone smoking a cigarette or even smoking weed. 00:21:26.120 --> 00:21:31.640 I think those kinds of things are going to be evident in the new movement and probably 00:21:31.640 --> 00:21:38.660 will put a target on it, but I don't think there will be any amusician in the cannons that are fired 00:21:38.660 --> 00:21:45.640 at it. So the new movement will birth something totally, totally new that we haven't seen before 00:21:45.640 --> 00:21:51.140 that will be more decentralized. It'll be non-hierarchical, purely relational, not even 00:21:51.140 --> 00:22:00.060 organizational. They won't even need a 501c3. There won't be that it'll just be person to person. 00:22:00.980 --> 00:22:08.220 Uh, it'll, it'll spread quickly. It will be, uh, about me, Jesus, and you in relationship. 00:22:08.400 --> 00:22:13.720 And I think that's going to happen. And I think that's what God was preparing me for, 00:22:13.720 --> 00:22:19.140 for 12 years. You know, we're, we're already seeing a lot of that come, uh, about where we're, 00:22:19.140 --> 00:22:25.160 we're seeing, I mean, to be honest, I have had conversations six, 700 times at this point 00:22:25.160 --> 00:22:31.880 with normal people that want to plant a expression, a digital expression of a church, not no seminary 00:22:31.880 --> 00:22:39.040 training, no sending organization or denomination, no funding. Hey, Jeff, I have this crazy idea about 00:22:39.040 --> 00:22:44.580 what discipleship can look like digitally. Uh, am I, am I crazy? Am I, am I, am I, am I, is this 00:22:44.580 --> 00:22:50.280 possible? And literally like these conversations have happened over the past three years. And those 00:22:50.280 --> 00:22:54.960 first conversations were, yeah, maybe you are crazy, but go and give it a shot to at this point. Now, 00:22:54.960 --> 00:22:58.560 when I have these conversations, oh man, there's, there's like two or three people that are doing 00:22:58.560 --> 00:23:04.260 the similar thing. Can I introduce you to them? Maybe the two of you, you can talk like we're seeing this, 00:23:04.260 --> 00:23:11.180 this come about, uh, and 75% of the people, 80% of the people are, are bivocational. And so it's, 00:23:11.180 --> 00:23:18.100 it's this new, new priesthood and the priesthood of all believers, reembracing that idea, uh, 00:23:18.140 --> 00:23:22.500 contextualizing the message of it. It's, it's, it's so good. Neil, I want to encourage you with this. 00:23:22.560 --> 00:23:27.900 We have this saying, uh, through, through digital church network and, and, and maybe this is overstating, 00:23:27.900 --> 00:23:32.740 but it fits with us. We're kind of weird people sometimes it's, and it's, and it's pioneers get 00:23:32.740 --> 00:23:40.400 shot. Settlers get rich. And, um, you know, in, in, in, in my ministry life, and it sounds like Neil 00:23:40.400 --> 00:23:45.520 with yours, uh, man, we've been pioneers and not that I'm even trying to compare myself to, to what 00:23:45.520 --> 00:23:50.560 you've gone through within the past 12 years, but we are in this season of, if we're thinking 00:23:50.560 --> 00:23:58.280 different, well, the, the organized church doesn't like change. And so taking shots, removing, uh, 00:23:58.420 --> 00:24:04.720 discarding, displacing that often happens. Uh, and I know it does in my life and it sounds like it's 00:24:04.720 --> 00:24:09.600 had in yours. And so, man, I want to thank you just the upfront here. Thanks for taking some of those 00:24:09.600 --> 00:24:16.260 shots. Uh, thanks for taking some of those bullets and, and allowing others to come behind you. 00:24:16.480 --> 00:24:22.240 Cause the, the micro church movement, the decentralized movement, a lot of what you were 00:24:22.240 --> 00:24:30.080 talking about 10, 12, 13 years ago, it's not a pipe dream anymore. Like the established church may 00:24:30.080 --> 00:24:36.280 not recognize its validity, but for the people that are in that field, the goers that are going, 00:24:36.400 --> 00:24:42.040 man, they're, they're seeing fruit as a result of a lot of what you laid out a decade plus ago. 00:24:42.400 --> 00:24:45.980 Right. I see that. I see that and I rejoice. 00:24:46.480 --> 00:24:53.360 Yeah. There's some times where I'll be in a room full of people and, uh, at 10 Oh two, 00:24:53.440 --> 00:24:59.040 their phones will go off and they won't have any clue that that traces back through me. Um, 00:24:59.100 --> 00:25:03.840 or they'll, you know, and they'll just, they'll pray, attend to be prayer. And, and I'm sitting 00:25:03.840 --> 00:25:08.640 there and they, they'll, they'll, they'll tell me about it. Or I've had experiences where someone 00:25:08.640 --> 00:25:13.040 will say, you should, you, you should try life transformation groups. This is how it works. 00:25:13.040 --> 00:25:22.800 And they don't know that I developed that. So it, it's kind of a fun thing to do. Uh, but you're 00:25:22.800 --> 00:25:32.560 right. Pioneers get shot. Neil, what I find fascinating, um, even in the season as difficult as it is, 00:25:32.560 --> 00:25:39.840 I, there's, there's, there's, there's facets of this that I just can't help, but see connections 00:25:39.840 --> 00:25:46.860 with like what Jeff was talking about with the express, the digital expressions that we get a 00:25:46.860 --> 00:25:55.040 chance to be a part of because, you know, we all have the same mission really, because Jesus gave it 00:25:55.040 --> 00:26:01.040 to us. There isn't, or at least shouldn't be a lot of question around that, but the ministry model that 00:26:01.040 --> 00:26:08.880 we lay on top of the great commission that has a funding model on top of that, right? Those are the 00:26:08.880 --> 00:26:17.440 things that are adjustable. And what we're finding is the ministry model digitally is so lean that if you 00:26:17.440 --> 00:26:25.520 don't have to pay a mortgage, what do you need a 501c3 for? Right? If you don't, it just takes so much of 00:26:25.520 --> 00:26:34.560 the organizational overhead off of the plate and allows people to minister in a way that is probably 00:26:34.560 --> 00:26:43.920 more primal that we find in scripture that it, it just unlocks things for people to, to express Jesus 00:26:43.920 --> 00:26:49.920 church in different ways. And what I find fascinating is what we're experiencing right now is just what 00:26:49.920 --> 00:26:56.640 you have paved the way for over the past 12 years, where, you know, there is no funding model. There is 00:26:56.640 --> 00:27:04.000 no business model. And arguably that's not the point because Jesus didn't have a 501c3 either. 00:27:04.560 --> 00:27:14.000 Right? So it's taking us back to our, the first love, taking us back to our primal roots of what 00:27:14.000 --> 00:27:22.000 Jesus actually taught us to do and let the business model be what it would emerge or become or need to 00:27:22.000 --> 00:27:29.200 be as needed. But let's not start with that. Let's start with, with, with what Jesus wants to do 00:27:30.240 --> 00:27:39.200 in this time, post COVID, postmodern, you know, and I, I'm right with you, man. I feel like this new 00:27:39.200 --> 00:27:48.960 generation is experiencing revival and, and exploring new expressions of his church that Jesus is building. 00:27:48.960 --> 00:27:50.400 And it just fires me up. 00:27:50.400 --> 00:27:54.960 I think so. I, you know, I was just talking, I was just in Thailand last week and one of the leaders 00:27:54.960 --> 00:28:02.400 I was with, I just happened to mention that there won't be organizations in the future of the movement. 00:28:03.120 --> 00:28:08.560 And that just didn't compute. There's just no way, I can't even imagine a Christianity 00:28:09.680 --> 00:28:14.400 without organizations. I mean, how can you even be Christianity if you don't have an organization 00:28:14.400 --> 00:28:17.840 is the way he was thinking? And I said, well, read the book of Acts. 00:28:21.920 --> 00:28:28.480 There you go. It's, it's possible. I just think that the, those who are institutionalized and their 00:28:28.480 --> 00:28:35.600 entire identity and source of support comes from the institution that just can't even imagine it. 00:28:36.400 --> 00:28:41.200 And if you bring it up, it's, it's too much. They just don't want to hear it. And I think that's 00:28:41.200 --> 00:28:48.160 pretty common and normal. But for those who aren't institutionalized, it, it becomes good news. 00:28:48.160 --> 00:28:51.520 And it's, it's, it'll be great for the gospel to be good news again. 00:28:52.960 --> 00:28:56.640 Because for a long time, it hasn't been that. It's been something else. 00:28:57.200 --> 00:29:05.920 Yeah, totally with you. It reminds me of the reaction of the priests and Pharisees when Jesus said, 00:29:05.920 --> 00:29:11.920 Oh, you know, I'm going to tear down this temple and rebuild it, you know, and it's going to be a 00:29:11.920 --> 00:29:17.280 temple that you don't understand. And because of that statement, they killed him because they just 00:29:17.280 --> 00:29:23.440 could not conceive of a relationship with God in any other way. 00:29:23.440 --> 00:29:25.200 I guess that makes Jesus a pioneer. 00:29:27.200 --> 00:29:33.200 He did get killed for it. So I, you know, I, I, I guess so, you know, it's, it's, it's funny, 00:29:33.200 --> 00:29:38.560 Neil, like as I was, I was flipping back through the book, um, preparing for, for the podcast. 00:29:38.560 --> 00:29:48.320 And I ran across this quote and like this paragraph summarizes exactly what I, and, and what, 00:29:48.320 --> 00:29:54.240 what I believe JMO, Jason sees digital church as, and the potential of it. And so I'm literally 00:29:54.240 --> 00:30:01.600 quoting from your book 13 years ago, uh, the change to church 3.0 is a shift from a program-driven 00:30:01.600 --> 00:30:06.800 and clergy-led institutionalized approach of church to one that is relational, simple, 00:30:06.800 --> 00:30:11.600 and viral in its spread. Instead of seeing church as something that serves its people, 00:30:11.600 --> 00:30:19.520 church becomes people who serve God, one another, and a hurting world. The change is from organization 00:30:19.520 --> 00:30:26.480 to an organism that is healthy and reproductive. Church is no longer a place to go, but a people 00:30:26.480 --> 00:30:33.360 to belong to. Church is no longer an event to be at, but a family to be part of. Church is not a program 00:30:33.360 --> 00:30:41.120 to reach out to the world, but a people that bring the kingdom of God with them into a lost world with 00:30:41.120 --> 00:30:49.920 a contagious spirit. Like my heart for what digital churches can be, you wrote 13 years ago in this 00:30:49.920 --> 00:30:56.240 thing. And it's like, as I'm falling back and this is like, oh my gosh, like it's, it's so beautiful 00:30:56.240 --> 00:31:02.400 how this comes together. So, um, let me ask you this, you know, and you know, I'm taking your words, 00:31:02.400 --> 00:31:06.880 I'm applying it into a different context, which is stretching a little bit, which is fine. I mean, 00:31:06.880 --> 00:31:11.360 that's, that's why we write books, right? We write books so that other people can contextualize it and 00:31:11.360 --> 00:31:18.960 reshape it. As you look back on your book on specifically church 3.0, what did you nail? 00:31:18.960 --> 00:31:24.480 What did you feel like? Hey, you know what? 2023, we are seeing this right now. And is there anything, 00:31:24.480 --> 00:31:29.520 if you could be honest, is there anything that you're like, oh my gosh, I was way off base with 00:31:29.520 --> 00:31:38.480 that one. Um, what, what do you think? You know, uh, I've been asked, would I write church 4.0? 00:31:38.480 --> 00:31:44.560 Well, no, I, I think, I think we did off, off air, but that may be another, another conversation. 00:31:44.560 --> 00:31:51.600 Yeah, I was, so, uh, no, I don't think we've really fully accomplished church 3.0 yet, um, to, 00:31:51.600 --> 00:31:59.520 to upgrade to 4.0. But I think, uh, I wouldn't write a new book or change that much of church 3.0, 00:31:59.520 --> 00:32:07.440 but I might add a new chapter because I, I think, uh, what we will ultimately discover, 00:32:07.440 --> 00:32:14.080 and it will be church 3.0 in its fullest expression is that we respond more like a 00:32:14.080 --> 00:32:27.520 murmuration of starlings than even a, uh, uh, a network of sorts so that, so that it's much more 00:32:27.520 --> 00:32:34.160 like a school of fish that just responds immediately and moves as one, even though it's all these small 00:32:34.160 --> 00:32:39.520 parts. I think that in the future, that will be the organic expression of the kingdom of God, 00:32:40.240 --> 00:32:46.160 and you won't be able to find a discernible network. What you'll find is that everybody 00:32:46.160 --> 00:32:52.960 listens to Jesus and does what he says immediately. And it's supernatural almost. And I think we will 00:32:52.960 --> 00:33:02.000 need that because the world itself is quickly going dark and hostile, and it will be hostile specifically 00:33:02.000 --> 00:33:08.720 to those who are in Christ. And I think the persecution that will come from that, uh, 00:33:08.720 --> 00:33:15.520 will be of a nature that no one, no Christian has ever faced because, you know, like in previous 00:33:15.520 --> 00:33:22.720 persecution, you're, you're hoping your neighbor or your great aunt don't turn you in. But today, 00:33:22.720 --> 00:33:30.320 your Samsung TV will turn you in. Your, your smartphone is already feeding them inside information 00:33:30.320 --> 00:33:36.640 about your life. And they know more about you already than you know about yourself. And so the persecution, 00:33:36.640 --> 00:33:45.600 you, you, we will need to live a more supernatural life to, to survive. And I even think the world itself 00:33:45.600 --> 00:33:53.440 will become more supernatural so that we will not be amazed as much by the miraculous. Um, it'll just 00:33:53.440 --> 00:34:03.280 become a, a necessity to survive. Uh, so I think that the expression of church 3.0 at its fullest will be 00:34:03.280 --> 00:34:12.240 more like a murmuration of starlings than it will be, um, the typical network theory that we have laid out in that book. 00:34:12.240 --> 00:34:21.200 So maybe the advance or maybe church 4.0 is this murmuration of starlings or this school 00:34:21.200 --> 00:34:24.160 of fish, um, mentality. 00:34:25.120 --> 00:34:32.800 Maybe it's, maybe it's 3.1, 3.5, you know, some, some, some variable in, in there, um, you know, 00:34:32.800 --> 00:34:39.360 say 4.0 for when the metaverse, I don't know, you can get lost in that. Um, you know, it's interesting. 00:34:39.360 --> 00:34:43.920 I had, um, I had a conversation and, and, and I'm not going to be able to give credit to this quote. 00:34:44.400 --> 00:34:48.560 Uh, but I've had a conversation recently with somebody over at new thing. We, DC and we work 00:34:48.560 --> 00:34:55.680 with a new thing network and, uh, they were telling me about a, um, it was a Chinese missionary or 00:34:55.680 --> 00:35:01.840 someone was over here was speaking and they were talking, Jason, was this your story about the, um, 00:35:01.840 --> 00:35:07.040 oh my gosh, it was the, the, this Chinese person was asked a question. He was telling stories about 00:35:07.040 --> 00:35:12.320 how supernatural activities that he's seeing in China and he's giving testimony to, to everything 00:35:12.320 --> 00:35:17.440 that's happening, you know, in, in, in the far East. And, uh, and somebody asks this person, 00:35:17.440 --> 00:35:22.720 you know, why do you not think we see it in, in, in America? Why, why do we not see the supernatural 00:35:22.720 --> 00:35:27.680 activity in America like you're seeing over there? And, and, and the response from this, this person 00:35:27.680 --> 00:35:33.120 from the far East was, well, you have insurance. I mean, you have these things that you're dependent 00:35:33.120 --> 00:35:36.880 on. And so you don't, you don't need to see God. You will not see God move. And because 00:35:36.880 --> 00:35:41.600 you're not, you're not looking for God to move. You're looking to, to validate, to work yourself 00:35:41.600 --> 00:35:47.040 out of that. And it's interesting in this, you know, and I believe this in Jason. I know we've 00:35:47.040 --> 00:35:52.480 had this conversation as the church, as we in culture here in the West, as we move more and more 00:35:52.480 --> 00:35:57.680 towards a post post-Christian environment, post-Christian culture, if we're not already there 00:35:57.680 --> 00:36:01.920 yet, you know, I do agree. I think we're going to be seeing a lot of persecution. We're going to be 00:36:01.920 --> 00:36:09.520 seeing a lot of, of challenges in which is going to discredit the organized church, the institutionalized 00:36:09.520 --> 00:36:15.440 church, but it's really, it's going to empower that priesthood of believers that have the relational 00:36:15.440 --> 00:36:21.440 equity, that have that, that influence with, with friends and with family to speak towards things 00:36:21.440 --> 00:36:28.880 that, that we are not able to speak to as, as pastors or at a decreasing level at this point. 00:36:28.880 --> 00:36:35.040 I'm still thinking about what you just said about swarm theory, that, that like in my mind, 00:36:35.040 --> 00:36:41.760 I'm still spinning around like the, what makes swarm theory work is you, you don't have an, 00:36:41.760 --> 00:36:47.360 you don't have an organized network. So there's no network overhead, which is fascinating. Um, 00:36:47.360 --> 00:36:58.960 but you have, what you do have though, is a very simple and portable set of simple instructions 00:36:58.960 --> 00:37:08.240 that interact with everyone else's. And what's, as I think about it, you know, hopefully we're all 00:37:08.240 --> 00:37:15.520 reading the same book, listening to the same spirit and following the same God, right? If all of those 00:37:15.520 --> 00:37:22.960 things are true. And I've noticed this even among other brothers and sisters who I've only met for 00:37:22.960 --> 00:37:34.080 the first time, I can fly across the world and meet someone who deeply loves Jesus and follows him. 00:37:35.520 --> 00:37:43.280 And I don't speak his language. I don't understand his culture. You know, there's so much about his life 00:37:43.280 --> 00:37:52.160 that I do not get, but I instantly have more in common with him than all of the other things combined 00:37:53.440 --> 00:37:59.920 because of that. And I feel there's, there's a piece of that that resonates with me that I wonder much 00:37:59.920 --> 00:38:10.560 like how the persecuted church in China tends to know who the spies are spiritually. Somehow they, 00:38:10.560 --> 00:38:18.880 they sense it. The spirit tells them that, you know, this guy's, you know, out to, you know, destroy the 00:38:18.880 --> 00:38:26.320 movement or whatever. And it's like, okay, fine. They just listen to the spirit. Right. And what I, what I think is, 00:38:26.320 --> 00:38:33.920 is there are so many people that are listening to the spirit in that way, in digital spaces, in VR, 00:38:34.720 --> 00:38:41.360 talking with other people who are doing the same thing that it's there, it's beginning to coalesce. 00:38:42.240 --> 00:38:47.760 That's what's fascinating. And it's a, it's an interesting description that you gave. I'm still 00:38:47.760 --> 00:38:49.040 kind of processing that one. 00:38:50.880 --> 00:38:55.360 Well, let me ask, Neil, like, as you mentioned earlier, talking about your movement, there's, 00:38:55.360 --> 00:39:00.400 there's some aspects to what you're doing is digital, uh, the training and communication and that's 00:39:01.120 --> 00:39:05.680 post COVID. We're definitely seeing that, you know, in, in some decentralized and in some micro 00:39:05.680 --> 00:39:11.520 environments, uh, more efficient training digitally compared to physical only. Um, 00:39:12.400 --> 00:39:17.120 as we're talking in, in, and I would love, honestly, I would love honest feedback, uh, 00:39:17.120 --> 00:39:22.400 pros, cons, strengths, weaknesses, opportunities. You guys are way off base, you know, we're, 00:39:22.400 --> 00:39:28.800 we're, so we're talking literally applying some of your principles into digital and metaverse, 00:39:28.800 --> 00:39:37.840 into Facebook groups, into video games, into, um, uh, twitch and discord and virtual reality and all 00:39:37.840 --> 00:39:46.160 space and, and like maybe bleeding edge concepts here. Um, what's your take? Like where, where are we 00:39:46.160 --> 00:39:50.880 right? Where are we wrong? What, what challenges are we going to need to overcome? I just would love 00:39:50.880 --> 00:39:57.520 your knee jerk opinion on this. Sure. Well, if you talk about digital church, I think, um, 00:39:57.520 --> 00:40:05.680 um, uh, people, my age, um, are going to respond negatively. Think for the most part, thinking 00:40:05.680 --> 00:40:11.760 that's not possible. You have to have face to face, heart to heart connection with people. But I, 00:40:11.760 --> 00:40:18.400 I think they're not taking into consideration that this new emerging generation, this is all they've 00:40:18.400 --> 00:40:24.240 known. You know, they don't know of a world where there isn't an iPhone. They don't have a history where 00:40:24.240 --> 00:40:32.880 there isn't digital connection. So they have been, they have evolved to be more suited for a digital 00:40:32.880 --> 00:40:38.800 expression of church than their parents and grandparents ever were. So I think that we'll 00:40:38.800 --> 00:40:45.680 find this, this generation is more equipped for it and able to do it with or without permission or 00:40:45.680 --> 00:40:53.280 blessing. Um, so I, I do see that happening. Um, I see new opportunities for connecting that way, 00:40:53.280 --> 00:41:01.440 where you have, uh, like I teach a seminary class that is people from all over the world. Um, 00:41:03.040 --> 00:41:08.640 it's kind of remarkable to do that. It's a blessing and you have simple and easy, um, 00:41:10.320 --> 00:41:16.960 it's simple and easy expressions that can reproduce and grow and spread fast. Those are all positives 00:41:16.960 --> 00:41:23.200 for it. I see that you can apply everything in church 3.0 in a digital way. Um, 00:41:26.080 --> 00:41:30.880 my headphones are about to die. So if that happens, I'll just take them out and figure something else 00:41:30.880 --> 00:41:39.200 out on the negative side. Uh, you could feel more isolated without human connectivity and contact with 00:41:39.200 --> 00:41:45.760 people. So I think that's something that needs to be supplemented in some way. I think, you know, 00:41:45.760 --> 00:41:53.040 in Christianity, wearing a mask has always been a problem, but wearing an avatar is an even grander 00:41:53.040 --> 00:42:00.880 expression of a mask. And you can put forward somebody more easily that is not who you really are 00:42:02.320 --> 00:42:09.920 and cover up the things in your life that are perhaps more vulnerable or would be vulnerable if you let 00:42:09.920 --> 00:42:15.680 people see them and they don't want them to be seen. So I think you can hide more easily behind an 00:42:15.680 --> 00:42:24.320 avatar than you can even behind a smiley face mask that you wear on Sundays. Um, I think that you're 00:42:24.320 --> 00:42:30.960 more vulnerable to, in a sense, you, uh, the government could shut down church immediately by just unplugging 00:42:30.960 --> 00:42:39.120 you. So you, you're very vulnerable to persecution. All they have to do is flip, flip the switch and you 00:42:39.120 --> 00:42:47.200 no longer exist. Um, so that's, that's a vulnerability I see. Um, and, and there are steps being made in 00:42:47.200 --> 00:42:56.800 Congress, even at this very moment to try and, uh, curtail what's possible on the internet. Um, 00:43:00.800 --> 00:43:09.200 I think that, uh, uh, uh, COVID was, uh, exposure of the church's weakness of consumerism 00:43:10.320 --> 00:43:16.240 and it, and it really killed the church. So we, you know, God sent COVID and all the restrictions 00:43:16.240 --> 00:43:21.440 and it was a way for him to say, don't be better attenders, be better neighbors and do things in your 00:43:21.440 --> 00:43:27.520 home and empower everyone. But I think a lot of churches just said, okay, just stay home and we'll do 00:43:27.520 --> 00:43:33.840 church with simulcast. And so they did, they just easily transitioned to a more digital expression 00:43:33.840 --> 00:43:39.360 of church. But the problem they, they ran into that they didn't anticipate is their, their consumers 00:43:39.360 --> 00:43:49.120 found better sermons and better music on other websites. And, and so soon church consumerism was 00:43:49.120 --> 00:43:56.480 thrown up and everyone's realized the fault of it overnight. And that's a problem. I think that, 00:43:56.480 --> 00:43:56.640 uh, 00:43:56.640 --> 00:44:07.280 I do think that, that it's, it's something we need to be thinking about praying about you guys are leading 00:44:07.280 --> 00:44:14.800 the way. And I appreciate that. Uh, those are the, the potential problems I see there. I could probably 00:44:14.800 --> 00:44:20.800 come up with another list if I gave it more time, but, um, I do see a lot of positives. Yeah. 00:44:21.120 --> 00:44:26.240 You know what's, um, and, and I agree, Neil, with the majority of what you just said, like the 00:44:26.240 --> 00:44:32.000 government shutdown is a concern, which is one of the reasons we encourage, uh, multiple platforms, 00:44:32.000 --> 00:44:37.440 decentralized, don't be limited to one platform because that's harder to control. Uh, the, uh, 00:44:37.440 --> 00:44:44.640 oh, and the simulcasting of services. Oh my gosh. Like we're, um, don't base everything off that we 00:44:44.640 --> 00:44:49.920 don't want to create consumers. We want to create disciples that are active, uh, in digital space, 00:44:49.920 --> 00:44:55.440 as well as physical space. We want to exude this, the fruits of the spirit physically, uh, even to the 00:44:55.440 --> 00:44:59.760 point of, of starting micro locations and, and, and connecting in the workplace. Like there's, 00:44:59.760 --> 00:45:05.920 there's lots there, but you know, what's interesting. And, and, and so often I, I hear from people, 00:45:05.920 --> 00:45:12.800 um, um, the mask thing where, uh, it's, Hey, you know what? It's very easy digitally for people to 00:45:12.800 --> 00:45:18.800 hide. Uh, and it's very easy for people to, to catfish, to not be who they really are. And yes, 00:45:18.800 --> 00:45:25.040 there is, there is a, a level of, of concern with that, but almost what we really see more often than 00:45:25.040 --> 00:45:31.920 that. And Jason can attest to this are people who are far more trusting and open and honest in digital 00:45:31.920 --> 00:45:37.040 space because Neil, we're not breathing the same air molecules. Like I'm not even in the same room. 00:45:37.040 --> 00:45:40.720 Neil, I'm having a conversation with you right now. And I'm actually not sure what state you live in. 00:45:40.720 --> 00:45:47.040 Like, we're just, we're just having a conversation. And, and so that I live in a perpetual state of 00:45:47.040 --> 00:45:57.040 panic. Awesome. No, that's not true. That, no, that's awesome. But that is so freeing for people that, 00:45:57.040 --> 00:46:03.760 to have honest, open, clear conversations where you're not worried about judgment, where you're not 00:46:03.760 --> 00:46:09.920 worried about looking down on, because I don't really know who you are. Like, and that allows for 00:46:09.920 --> 00:46:15.680 a deeper conversation much quicker. There, there is a challenge. There are people that will catfish. 00:46:15.680 --> 00:46:21.840 There are people that will fake. Uh, but then there's flip side. There's so much opportunity 00:46:21.840 --> 00:46:27.040 because then there's this other type of person that just leans into it, um, towards that. 00:46:27.040 --> 00:46:31.600 Yeah. Well, you get that, you get that even through the Twitter verse and things where you have, 00:46:31.600 --> 00:46:35.360 people will say things there that they would never say to your face, 00:46:37.280 --> 00:46:39.680 but it also brings out some of the worst things in people. 00:46:39.680 --> 00:46:45.040 Well, I think it's, there's a couple of things at play. One is, I think it reveals 00:46:45.040 --> 00:46:49.760 a lot of things about people that you're right. They wouldn't say it to your face, 00:46:49.760 --> 00:46:53.280 not because it's not in their heart, because they just don't have the guts to do it. 00:46:54.560 --> 00:47:00.960 And what, when you get something where you see the vitriol, you're getting a little bit more of a 00:47:00.960 --> 00:47:06.240 glimpse of what's actually going on inside and what Jesus talked about out of the abundance of the 00:47:06.240 --> 00:47:13.680 heart, the mouth speaks. And I think the fingers post, you know, that I think both are true. 00:47:13.680 --> 00:47:19.120 And it is interesting that you talk about the mask thing, because I was kind of like swirling around 00:47:19.120 --> 00:47:24.720 on that because I get a lot of that, uh, pushback as well. But I don't know that that is necessarily 00:47:25.520 --> 00:47:35.120 a digital problem as much as it is a human one. And even to the point where the apostle Paul was 00:47:35.120 --> 00:47:44.720 criticized because his letters were fiery, but he's unimpressive in person. So even the apostle Paul 00:47:46.080 --> 00:47:54.560 was, it felt like there was this disconnect between his writing persona and his actual persona. 00:47:55.200 --> 00:47:59.360 And that's in the first century, he was stronger on Twitter than he was in person. 00:47:59.360 --> 00:48:03.440 Right, exactly. I know a lot of people like that, where they're stronger on Twitter than they are 00:48:03.440 --> 00:48:08.880 in person. I know a lot of people like that. And so I think there's a piece of it where 00:48:09.680 --> 00:48:16.720 it's, it's more of a human thing on both sides of the equation. One is, um, people tend to, 00:48:16.720 --> 00:48:23.680 when they have the possibility to be whoever they could dream of, they usually end up being truly 00:48:23.680 --> 00:48:29.920 themselves. That's one thing. And the second thing is, is when people are on the receiving end 00:48:30.800 --> 00:48:37.120 of any kind of digital or textual, I'll just say textual, because I think it also applies to 00:48:37.680 --> 00:48:43.520 letters and, you know, other books, even things like that. When people are on the receiving end 00:48:44.240 --> 00:48:53.680 of textual communication, you are missing so much more of the picture than if you were face-to-face 00:48:53.680 --> 00:48:59.280 with body language, voice intonation, all the things, you're just filling those gaps in 00:49:00.160 --> 00:49:06.480 with your own imagination. What could possibly go wrong, right? Something that could have been 00:49:06.480 --> 00:49:17.280 communicated in a very, um, sweet and meek manner can be read the opposite. And we don't have good 00:49:17.280 --> 00:49:23.200 handles for that on both sides of the equation. One is like human nature, that there's no consequences 00:49:23.200 --> 00:49:29.840 for what I say. That's one thing. The other thing, human nature is, in the absence of information, 00:49:30.640 --> 00:49:39.520 I will fill it with my imagination. And that could go sideways really quickly. Um, but I don't 00:49:39.520 --> 00:49:45.360 necessarily, again, see that as a digital problem. I do see it as a human problem. And I don't think 00:49:45.360 --> 00:49:51.200 it's by accident either. And this is something that you said that made me think about it, even with the, 00:49:51.200 --> 00:50:00.480 with the idea of the apostle Paul is that he tended to, um, send his letters with a trusted friend. 00:50:02.560 --> 00:50:10.160 And I think in that way, it tended to compensate for the downfall or, you know, the, I wouldn't say 00:50:10.160 --> 00:50:17.680 downfalls. I would just say the, yeah, but it's just the limitations of textual communication, 00:50:17.680 --> 00:50:23.920 right? It has its limits, right? So he, he compensated for that in other means. And I'm, 00:50:23.920 --> 00:50:29.360 and what you, what you say is very valid. And I think it's, it's worth considering of how do we in 00:50:29.360 --> 00:50:36.080 the digital space compensate for those digital limitations that exist? We need to think of those 00:50:36.080 --> 00:50:40.880 things and figure that out just like the apostle Paul did. You know, it's interesting. I've, 00:50:40.880 --> 00:50:47.200 I've got another quote here. Um, it's from, it's from your book and this is actually a highlight. 00:50:47.200 --> 00:50:52.240 I'm looking at the Kindle that I hadn't when I read it in 2010. Uh, but you're, you're quoting Alan 00:50:52.240 --> 00:50:56.320 Hirsch. So I don't know whether to give Alan Hirsch, who's been on the podcast, uh, but I don't know 00:50:56.320 --> 00:51:01.840 whether to give him credit or you credit or you credit for giving him credit. But, um, a missional, 00:51:01.840 --> 00:51:07.440 Hirsch goes on to say a missional theology is not content with mission being church-based work. 00:51:08.560 --> 00:51:14.640 Rather, it applies to the whole life of every believer. Every disciple is to be an agent of the 00:51:14.640 --> 00:51:20.400 kingdom of God. And every disciple is to carry the mission of God into every sphere of life. 00:51:21.200 --> 00:51:27.280 We are all missionaries sent into a non-Christian culture. I don't know when Alan Hirsch said that, 00:51:27.280 --> 00:51:31.600 but it's quoted in a 2010 book. And what's fascinating is in the Kindle, I actually wrote a 00:51:31.600 --> 00:51:36.080 book. I wrote a note at the end of that sentence that says, you can't see it on the phone, but it 00:51:36.080 --> 00:51:44.800 says, including online, like in 2010, the idea of sending, um, missionaries into non-Christian 00:51:44.800 --> 00:51:50.480 culture, including that online was something that, that I was, I don't want to be ego here, 00:51:50.480 --> 00:51:55.280 but I was, I was working towards, I was seeing the vision towards that and, and seeing this as an 00:51:55.280 --> 00:52:02.080 incredible strategy to help empower people to get into this culture. It's funny. You were talking 00:52:02.080 --> 00:52:05.920 about the first time you hold your book. I mean, this is literally, this is book number two. It's 00:52:05.920 --> 00:52:10.720 not book number one, but the idea of, you know, Dave Ferguson's actually one of the reasons we got 00:52:10.720 --> 00:52:16.720 connected, but Dave gave me permission to write, uh, a digital and metaverse version of blessed 00:52:16.720 --> 00:52:24.000 practices and turning that and empowering people to take that gospel into the digital and metaverse 00:52:24.000 --> 00:52:29.600 mission fields. We can argue whether or not it's a ecclesiological church. We can argue whether or 00:52:29.600 --> 00:52:35.280 not you, you, it meets the biblical mandates and the functions, uh, in digital and metaverse space. 00:52:35.280 --> 00:52:40.080 But we can't, we can't argue about the mission field. Like there's, I have yet to meet a pastor 00:52:40.080 --> 00:52:45.200 who's like, Jeff, you don't need to take, uh, the gospel into, into digital and metaverse. Nobody, 00:52:45.200 --> 00:52:51.200 everybody is at least recognizing the opportunities of, of the mission field. And so it's been, 00:52:51.200 --> 00:52:58.880 it's been a lot of fun, sir, taking these ideas, uh, taking the challenge of, of, of the priesthood 00:52:58.880 --> 00:53:03.200 of all believers, empowering individuals, the multiplying of this, the, the contextualizing, 00:53:03.200 --> 00:53:07.200 the, it's better to have a hundred thousand churches of 10 than a million person church, 00:53:07.200 --> 00:53:14.480 uh, and helping, uh, and helping others think differently. It's, it's funny, probably the, 00:53:14.480 --> 00:53:20.240 the biggest challenge that I have when, when we're working with planters that want to plant these 00:53:20.240 --> 00:53:26.080 churches is actually trying to get them to forget everything they think they know about church. 00:53:26.080 --> 00:53:34.320 Um, because whether it's, uh, whether it's physical operation, whether it's, um, you know, limitations, 00:53:34.320 --> 00:53:40.880 because they're thinking in, in a mega environment and digital operates much better in a relational 00:53:40.880 --> 00:53:49.200 micro, as opposed to a mega, uh, there's a lot of, of reprogramming, uh, in, in re-imagining what 00:53:49.200 --> 00:53:54.400 church can be and how to do it in some of these communities. And, and your book, uh, similar, 00:53:54.400 --> 00:53:59.760 I mentioned Leonard Sweet earlier, like both of your books really gave me permission to do this. 00:53:59.760 --> 00:54:07.040 Uh, there wasn't a lot on this space at the time. You were very, uh, visionary in this Leonard Sweet, 00:54:07.040 --> 00:54:14.240 1999 at 98, I think is when he wrote Soul Tsunami, very visionary for its time. And you guys both were, 00:54:14.240 --> 00:54:19.040 were huge in my life to, to help get to where we are today with this movement. So, man, 00:54:19.040 --> 00:54:23.680 I just wanted to say thank you, uh, for, for, for doing this and, and doing the hard work, 00:54:23.680 --> 00:54:30.000 uh, for taking those shots, those bullets, uh, to get these ideas out, to help guys like me, 00:54:30.000 --> 00:54:36.000 guys like Jason, helping us do what, do what we're doing now. So that's greatly appreciated on our side. 00:54:36.000 --> 00:54:38.720 Great. Appreciate it. Thank you. 00:54:38.720 --> 00:54:42.640 Hey, as, as we're wrapping up the, the, the plane here, well, let me ask Jason, 00:54:42.640 --> 00:54:44.480 any, any closing thoughts as we're wrapping up here? 00:54:44.480 --> 00:54:47.760 I think we pretty much hit it. I mean, I'm, 00:54:48.880 --> 00:54:56.640 I'm really looking forward to like that, that idea of the, of the school of fish and the, 00:54:56.640 --> 00:55:03.200 the starling concept. I feel like we've experienced right here a little bit of it where, 00:55:03.200 --> 00:55:05.600 you know, we've never had a chance to sit down and talk, 00:55:06.400 --> 00:55:09.120 but we're both swimming in the same direction, you know. 00:55:10.960 --> 00:55:14.000 Um, Neil is wrapping up in any closing thoughts. 00:55:14.000 --> 00:55:21.360 The, the idea. So a lot of times we do church without music because we don't have musicians in 00:55:21.360 --> 00:55:29.200 the group. And so we've developed non-musical ways of doing worship as a group, but I'll tell you, 00:55:29.200 --> 00:55:32.480 if you, if you can have music, it's better. 00:55:34.640 --> 00:55:40.640 It's not necessary to be church, but when you add the music, there's something special about that 00:55:40.640 --> 00:55:45.360 creation of God that touches your heart in a way that nothing else can. 00:55:45.360 --> 00:55:49.840 And I'm not saying music in and of itself is all that worship is. I know it's not, 00:55:50.480 --> 00:55:56.800 but music adds to the element. And in the same way, I think family, um, 00:55:58.080 --> 00:56:02.800 it's a blessing that you can have family living in other states and you can connect online. 00:56:04.000 --> 00:56:11.440 But if you can be in the same room, breathing the same molecules, um, that's a better thing. 00:56:12.240 --> 00:56:18.400 And I think you would want that too. So I see an online church expression as necessary, 00:56:18.400 --> 00:56:23.120 as beautiful as having many opportunities that you don't have any other place. 00:56:23.840 --> 00:56:30.400 But I think, um, if you ask me personally, does it take the place of flesh on flesh, 00:56:30.400 --> 00:56:36.320 eyeball to eyeball contact with people? I think it's, it's kind of like the difference 00:56:36.320 --> 00:56:40.480 between having church without music or having church with music. It's like having, 00:56:40.480 --> 00:56:45.600 do you want to have a, I'm going to say it's the difference between having a black and white or a 00:56:45.600 --> 00:56:51.040 color TV, but I don't think many of our audience would know what a black and white TV is. 00:56:53.840 --> 00:56:58.320 You may be dating yourself a little bit with that one. Just, just, just a little bit. 00:56:58.320 --> 00:57:04.240 Um, and you know what, Neil, I agree with you. Like the buildings in, in church in a physical space 00:57:04.240 --> 00:57:10.000 serves a purpose. Um, what, what I would suggest is that digitally we can reach people that aren't 00:57:10.000 --> 00:57:15.600 going to the buildings. And, and, and I can tell you stories of, of digital churches that are reaching 00:57:15.600 --> 00:57:23.040 80 to 85% atheists, uh, virtual reality, 75% de-churched. I can tell you stories of neo-pagans 00:57:23.040 --> 00:57:28.480 and Satanists that are finding Christ in virtual reality and in digital churches that are discipling 00:57:28.480 --> 00:57:33.760 people that haven't set foot in a physical building, church building in a decade. And so like, there's, 00:57:33.760 --> 00:57:39.600 there's these rich stories where God's moving in this space. And one of the things that, that I wrestle 00:57:39.600 --> 00:57:43.120 with in, in, in a second, but one of the things that I wrestle with and, and I ask this question 00:57:43.120 --> 00:57:49.520 all the time of, of the pastors that are in the space, Hey, like, you know, at what point do we ask, 00:57:49.520 --> 00:57:54.240 do we challenge some of these people to, to stop attending digitally and go physically? Is there a 00:57:54.240 --> 00:57:59.840 point that, that we, that we, we need to, should we, is what's the three-year plan, the five-year plan? 00:57:59.840 --> 00:58:04.400 Like, what, what is this, what does this look like? And it's interesting, even like the guys and the 00:58:04.400 --> 00:58:11.600 gals that are planting, it's varying answers. Some of them want to encourage and have intentional 00:58:11.600 --> 00:58:17.440 plans to get people connected in, in the physical. Some of them don't. And so this is, this is one of 00:58:17.440 --> 00:58:22.560 the, the things that I think time will tell where we will try to figure that out. Go ahead. 00:58:22.560 --> 00:58:28.000 One of the trends we're seeing right now is that more people, there are a lot of people who are more 00:58:28.000 --> 00:58:36.640 keen to start a business than to start a church. That God is leading people to start, uh, communities 00:58:36.640 --> 00:58:42.320 where they're, they're self-sustainable, they're farming, they are living in community, they're 00:58:42.320 --> 00:58:47.680 starting businesses that not only bless and, uh, support this, sustain themselves, but also bless the 00:58:47.680 --> 00:58:55.200 community. That's a trend happening all over the world. Um, that can happen online, but there's also 00:58:55.200 --> 00:59:01.040 an element to that where you need to have hand to hand contact. So it's almost like, I think it's a 00:59:01.040 --> 00:59:06.160 both and for the future. I think it's a, it's a something where there's a blending of both and 00:59:06.800 --> 00:59:12.960 is a better alternative than just being completely digital or being completely non-digital. 00:59:12.960 --> 00:59:13.520 I love it. 00:59:13.520 --> 00:59:21.600 Yeah. I'm with you, Neil. I think, uh, the perfect example of the blending of those two things and the 00:59:21.600 --> 00:59:28.000 tension of those two things is second John 12, where John's saying, Hey, I'm writing you pen and 00:59:28.000 --> 00:59:34.080 ink right now. I long to be with you face to face so that our joy can be full. And in my mind, 00:59:34.080 --> 00:59:40.480 I'm thinking, okay, a couple of things, one full for who for John and his buddies, not for me. 00:59:41.520 --> 00:59:48.000 Right. And John didn't, uh, it didn't keep him from sending the letter. Right. It didn't 00:59:48.000 --> 00:59:55.520 keep him from writing the letter because John at the time, I don't think even had the capacity to 00:59:55.520 --> 01:00:02.720 understand the longevity and the reach that his letter would have. Right. Because he's just thinking 01:00:02.720 --> 01:00:10.480 about his friends. Both are true. Right. It is better when you're with friends together, 01:00:10.480 --> 01:00:17.360 you know, no doubt, but how do you fill in those gaps? You know, and then, then the question becomes, 01:00:17.360 --> 01:00:25.120 okay, if we can be a little bit more forgiving with, you know, how, how we manage the community 01:00:25.120 --> 01:00:32.240 and the relational, um, glue between us, is it, maybe we can play with the cadence a little bit, 01:00:32.240 --> 01:00:39.040 you know, maybe, I don't know. And again, Jeff is right. You talk to people on this topic, 01:00:39.040 --> 01:00:44.480 you'll get all the different kinds of answers, but this emerging generation is asking those types of 01:00:44.480 --> 01:00:51.360 questions. And it's the same generation to your point that will do business as mission. It's the same 01:00:51.360 --> 01:00:59.520 generation that will have online digital gaming relationships and do a once in a year meetup 01:00:59.520 --> 01:01:06.320 where they will spend thousands of dollars and dress up like, you know, crazy people to do and 01:01:06.320 --> 01:01:12.480 to be with their friends for a week when they do it. And then they go back to their digital relationship. 01:01:12.480 --> 01:01:18.720 And I don't, that feels normal to them, right? I don't know what to make of all of that, 01:01:19.680 --> 01:01:24.480 but I know that Jesus can work through it. And it's interesting, the interplay of both of those 01:01:24.480 --> 01:01:29.520 things together. Well, and I appreciate you guys speaking into that world. Thank you. 01:01:29.920 --> 01:01:34.000 This has been Neil. Once again, I want to thank you for jumping on. It's been a great conversation. I've 01:01:34.000 --> 01:01:41.200 enjoyed learning from you historically, dialoguing with you now. Like this is, this is awesome. I'm 01:01:41.200 --> 01:01:48.000 having like a geek moment here. Like this is, this has been really good, but hey, we're going to land 01:01:48.000 --> 01:01:53.200 the plane. So Neil, thank you once again. I mean, I probably said thank you 50 times. And I really do 01:01:53.200 --> 01:01:57.760 mean that from the heart. Like there's, this is, this is awesome. Jason, uh, one of the smartest 01:01:57.760 --> 01:02:01.120 people I know in digital church. If I'm going to have a conversation with Neil Cole, 01:02:01.120 --> 01:02:04.800 bring the guy that can help the conversation. And you were, you were awesome with this, but hey, 01:02:04.800 --> 01:02:09.680 we're going to wrap up. And so, uh, Neil, uh, Jason, thank you very much. But for Neil, for you, 01:02:09.680 --> 01:02:13.440 for Jason, this is Jeff with the church, digital, digital church network, leadership network, 01:02:13.440 --> 01:02:18.720 and so much other fun stuff. Thanks for jumping on the podcast here. Uh, we'll see you again on the show. 01:02:18.720 --> 01:02:19.680 Y'all have a good day.