WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:04.840 Welcome to the Church Digital Podcast. Through this podcast, we'll talk about the technological 00:00:04.840 --> 00:00:10.920 innovations within the church. But more than tech for tech itself, we'll address deeper questions. 00:00:11.740 --> 00:00:16.640 Is disciple-making possible digitally? How should we approach the digital mission field? 00:00:17.420 --> 00:00:22.440 Can a biblically grounded church operate in digital space? Oh, and where does the metaverse 00:00:22.440 --> 00:00:27.920 fit into all this? Whether you're a big or small church, an established church, or a startup church 00:00:27.920 --> 00:00:33.840 plant. The Church Digital's goal is to help churches like yours learn to be a multiplying church, 00:00:34.460 --> 00:00:40.460 digitally and physically. Our heart? That churches like yours will discover a newfound focus on 00:00:40.460 --> 00:00:46.820 disciple-making that will revolutionize your church. And now, here's your host, Jeff Reed. 00:00:47.440 --> 00:00:51.380 Hey, everybody. Welcome to the Church Digital Podcast. Jeff here, founder of the Church Digital 00:00:51.380 --> 00:00:56.840 Church Network. And I'm excited about today's conversation. We're digging in a little bit 00:00:56.840 --> 00:01:03.300 more on the physical side of church and what physical looks like in a hybrid environment. 00:01:03.640 --> 00:01:07.360 And so, you know, we talk a lot about digital church planting, metaverse church planting, 00:01:07.800 --> 00:01:12.420 virtual reality, you know, some of that bleeding edge stuff. And today's conversation, I think, 00:01:12.480 --> 00:01:17.840 is going to be bleeding edge just in that it's a physical church that's doing something different 00:01:17.840 --> 00:01:23.380 with their digital strategy. And I cannot wait to get into this conversation. Maybe a couple months 00:01:23.380 --> 00:01:31.020 ago, a book was published, Hybrid Church, by James Emory White. And I'm very excited to get into this 00:01:31.020 --> 00:01:38.120 conversation with James today. James is lead pastor at Mecklenburg Church. And I'm going to, James, 00:01:38.300 --> 00:01:44.940 I want to have this conversation with you right now. Because you and I are linked at the hip. And I don't 00:01:44.940 --> 00:01:52.420 even know if you realize this, but you and I may be the only two people in America who have used the 00:01:52.420 --> 00:02:00.400 word digital and church in the same context, in the same conversation. Like, most people are afraid 00:02:00.400 --> 00:02:07.760 of the word digital. But my first exposure to you was you were talking about digital pre-COVID and using 00:02:07.760 --> 00:02:14.160 that physical and digital as that term. Well, I'm just curious, because I don't know if you've 00:02:14.160 --> 00:02:20.720 experienced this, James, but I was mocked for using the word digital. People were like, that sounds like 00:02:20.720 --> 00:02:26.020 a dirty word. That sounds like you're trying to kill somebody, digital. Like, there was definite 00:02:26.020 --> 00:02:30.820 mocking centered around the word digital. Did you experience anything like that? 00:02:31.880 --> 00:02:38.040 No, because the term certainly wasn't original with me. It comes from a marketing world and the 00:02:38.040 --> 00:02:45.040 business world where it's very common and was well understood. I think that, and so in the business 00:02:45.040 --> 00:02:50.740 world, it's a very, very common term. Yeah. So evidently, your friends respect you more than my 00:02:50.740 --> 00:02:57.360 friends do, which is probably very evident for many reasons. But yeah, so, but you don't use 00:02:57.360 --> 00:03:03.120 fidgetal anymore with your terms. You pivoted more towards hybrid church. And so I'm really interested 00:03:03.120 --> 00:03:09.020 to get into hybrid, your book, and maybe some of the stuff you're doing with Mecklenburg. But let's 00:03:09.020 --> 00:03:14.320 start there. So you're lead pastor with Mecklenburg. Tell us a little bit about yourself. 00:03:15.040 --> 00:03:18.320 Well, the most important thing is I've got a lovely wife I've been married to for 40 years, 00:03:18.460 --> 00:03:21.040 and I've got four children and 15 grandchildren. 00:03:21.480 --> 00:03:21.760 Wow. 00:03:22.340 --> 00:03:27.740 And Meck is a, well, it's a church plant. I planted it, had the privilege of doing that 00:03:27.740 --> 00:03:38.140 back in 1992. So we're a little over three decades into this. And the biggest headline probably about 00:03:38.140 --> 00:03:45.200 Meck is that we really are very focused on the unchurched. And 70% of our growth throughout all 30 00:03:45.200 --> 00:03:50.920 years has come from people who are previously unchurched. And so we're very, we're laser sharp 00:03:50.920 --> 00:04:00.200 in that aspect of our mission. So yeah, you know, it's a young church, almost entirely constituted 00:04:00.200 --> 00:04:02.600 of 20 and 30-somethings. I'm the resident old guy. 00:04:03.380 --> 00:04:09.320 Yeah, I got to tell you, I was expecting somebody younger, not somebody with 15 grandkids in a 00:04:09.320 --> 00:04:14.260 conversation, you know, talking about hybrid church. And so that's intriguing into itself. Well, 00:04:14.420 --> 00:04:17.080 tell me a little bit about the book you wrote, Hybrid Church. 00:04:17.600 --> 00:04:25.680 Yeah, it has a thesis that, if you'll give me a moment to explain, I think will be important for it. 00:04:27.680 --> 00:04:36.860 I've always had a foot in the church world and a foot in academia, and as a professor of theology and 00:04:36.860 --> 00:04:42.340 culture. And one of the things that intrigues me, it's always intrigued me, is the flow and the 00:04:42.340 --> 00:04:49.480 interplay of church and culture. And this book is a genesis of something that I believe is we're 00:04:49.480 --> 00:04:54.960 experiencing right now, which is only for the third time in Christian history, a shift in both our 00:04:54.960 --> 00:04:59.580 mission field and how we communicate to it. Go back in time, there's only been three eras of the 00:04:59.580 --> 00:05:04.160 Christian church, pre-Christian, Christian, and now post-Christian. In the pre-Christian era, 00:05:04.560 --> 00:05:12.700 the mission field was obviously largely to Jews, Judaizing Gentiles and pagans. Form of communication 00:05:12.700 --> 00:05:18.520 to that mission field was largely oral in nature. Even when Paul would write a letter to, for example, 00:05:18.580 --> 00:05:24.100 the church of Corinth, it would be read to the church of Corinth as an oral event. And much of 00:05:24.100 --> 00:05:30.960 history was kept alive orally before it was written. And so you had a pre-Christian world that was the 00:05:30.960 --> 00:05:35.900 mission field and an oral form of communication. Well, fast forward, and you can largely point to 00:05:35.900 --> 00:05:42.240 the time of the conversion of Constantine, but you had, certainly around that time, the shift from a 00:05:42.240 --> 00:05:48.040 pre-Christian world to a Christian world. And that was the nature of the mission field. 00:05:48.720 --> 00:05:54.100 And you also had a change in how communication took place. It went from oral to written and then 00:05:54.100 --> 00:05:59.160 later to mechanized writing. And that dominated culture for over a thousand years. And then in 00:05:59.160 --> 00:06:04.120 our day, what is happening right now is for only the third time, we have a new mission field and we 00:06:04.120 --> 00:06:08.420 have a new way of communicating with it. The mission field has gone from pre-Christian to Christian to 00:06:08.420 --> 00:06:13.340 post-Christian. And the way of communicating with it has gone from oral to written to now digital. 00:06:14.620 --> 00:06:22.000 And this is a significant revolution. This is a significant shift. And I'm not convinced that the 00:06:22.000 --> 00:06:29.020 average church or church leader is aware of just how significant this shift is, how deep of a paradigm 00:06:29.020 --> 00:06:34.100 shift it is, even though that phrase is often misused. Here is a time where it is appropriate. This is a 00:06:34.100 --> 00:06:38.860 paradigm shift. Change in our mission field and how we communicate with that mission field. 00:06:39.460 --> 00:06:46.820 And so it calls for a different model church. I argue that the first era was church 1.0 and the 00:06:46.820 --> 00:06:52.780 last thousand or so years been church 2.0. And now we have to have church 3.0. And I'm arguing that 00:06:52.780 --> 00:06:58.120 that that is going to be a hybrid model. I think that's the best term. Not solely physical, not solely 00:06:58.120 --> 00:07:06.720 digital, but a hybrid of the two going forward. And that is going to be everything. And the book explores 00:07:06.720 --> 00:07:13.220 this model, it makes the case for the changes, and then explores what that would be like in a working model, 00:07:13.700 --> 00:07:21.160 which we at MEC have been about now for at least, well, in one form or another, longer than this, but in 00:07:21.160 --> 00:07:24.040 full effort for about five years. 00:07:24.660 --> 00:07:32.480 Yeah, that's you first, MEC first came on my radar. It was pre-COVID. And so as you're talking about, and I 00:07:32.480 --> 00:07:39.560 believe, I was funny, I was trying to remember if it was a secular posting or if it was churchleaders.com, 00:07:39.620 --> 00:07:43.800 but I distinctly remember reading an article, pre-COVID, I'm sorry, I should say pre-COVID, 00:07:44.300 --> 00:07:52.500 about how your church was abandoning the multi-site strategy and pivoting more towards digital. And this 00:07:52.500 --> 00:08:01.040 is well before the pandemic. Yeah, it was. And we were a little surprised that it got the press that it 00:08:01.040 --> 00:08:08.260 did, but we were, I guess, maybe the first or one of the first large churches that was multi-site and 00:08:08.260 --> 00:08:16.360 been successful with multi-site that purposefully ended it. And the reason was fairly, it was a very 00:08:16.360 --> 00:08:23.540 simple decision for us, really. And as I've explained it, I think it's resonated and more and 00:08:23.540 --> 00:08:29.020 more churches are considering something similar. But here was our thinking. We got into the multi-site 00:08:29.020 --> 00:08:36.620 approach purely for the mission, purely for evangelism and outreach. And it was never to 00:08:36.620 --> 00:08:43.020 make MEC more convenient to attend for our existing attenders. It was always to make it easier to invite 00:08:43.020 --> 00:08:49.760 our unchurched friends, to overcome the perceived geographic barrier. People used to talk about a 15-minute 00:08:49.760 --> 00:08:54.880 barrier. And so you needed to have physical sites to invite people to throughout the city you were trying 00:08:54.880 --> 00:09:01.560 to reach, because people psychologically wouldn't attend. So, but here's what we found. When the world 00:09:01.560 --> 00:09:07.980 changed, and it changed, and I would argue, and I have argued in the book, and I'm not the first to do it, 00:09:07.980 --> 00:09:12.740 that really, the digital revolution, though it began much sooner than that, really kicked in 00:09:12.740 --> 00:09:21.920 culturally in 2007, from 2007 forward. When the world changed, then all of a sudden, everything 00:09:21.920 --> 00:09:26.080 about the multi-site model, which actually is a fairly dated model, I mean, some of the earliest 00:09:26.080 --> 00:09:34.500 books about it came out of the 1980s. So it's not like a cutting-edge thing. But when the digital 00:09:34.500 --> 00:09:38.480 revolution took place, and yet you were dealing with this physical multi-site approach, what you had is 00:09:38.480 --> 00:09:43.420 you had a physical approach in a digital world. Even worse, you had a physical response to a digital 00:09:43.420 --> 00:09:49.160 demand. We were finding that when people invited their friends, it was intuitive for them to invite 00:09:49.160 --> 00:09:54.160 them to check us out online or to attend an online campus. It wasn't to attend. And that was what people 00:09:54.160 --> 00:09:57.880 naturally wanted to do anyway. They weren't going to just attend a physical campus. They were going to 00:09:57.880 --> 00:10:03.860 explore things online. And so geography was just no longer the outreach issue. It wasn't the barrier to 00:10:03.860 --> 00:10:09.780 remove. We had a digital barrier. We didn't have a geographic barrier. And it was a digital site, 00:10:09.780 --> 00:10:14.940 if you will, that we needed to build, not a physical site that would facilitate this. And then 00:10:14.940 --> 00:10:23.220 also, once someone's hooked to, say, a church or something of that nature, doing whatever it takes 00:10:23.220 --> 00:10:28.700 to connect with it in a physical way, in an embodied way, if they felt so led, was no longer a barrier. 00:10:29.260 --> 00:10:33.220 People will drive quite some distance if they want to attend, for example, a church service. 00:10:33.620 --> 00:10:36.920 That's what the multi-site model is based on, quite frankly. You already had a core of people, 00:10:37.100 --> 00:10:42.320 maybe two, three hundred people attending, 30, 40 minutes away. And so the multi-site model itself 00:10:42.320 --> 00:10:49.400 was built on the reality that if people are a fan, geography isn't that big of an issue. 00:10:49.400 --> 00:10:59.680 So we shut down our sites, which were doing well, but they were expensive. And we made the decision to 00:10:59.680 --> 00:11:04.680 put all that money, I mean, physical sites, a multi-site model, people don't talk about this 00:11:04.680 --> 00:11:08.940 very much. It's an extraordinarily expensive model, which is fine if it's missional. It's fine if it's 00:11:08.940 --> 00:11:15.240 effective. But we were looking at what we could do with even half that money digitally, in terms of 00:11:15.240 --> 00:11:21.320 reaching people and just made us want to go throw up in a corner. And so we closed down our sites very 00:11:21.320 --> 00:11:27.760 strategically at a certain point in time and pivoted and put those resources in more into our online 00:11:27.760 --> 00:11:33.100 campus and staffing that as a full campus and other digital marketing and so many other things that we 00:11:33.100 --> 00:11:41.400 were doing, making our own main 80 acre campus much more of a digital model and much more easy to be 00:11:41.400 --> 00:11:51.720 engaged digitally. And we made that shift. And I kid you not, almost overnight, the increase in our 00:11:51.720 --> 00:11:59.940 size was dramatic. We increased in attendance both online and in person and never looked back. And so 00:11:59.940 --> 00:12:06.820 when the pandemic hit, we looked a lot smarter than we were. But we were, you know, full going and we had 00:12:06.820 --> 00:12:13.560 made that digital hybrid pivot. And so even though there were challenges that every church faced, us 00:12:13.560 --> 00:12:22.780 included with the pandemic, we were outliers in that during that time, we thrived, quite frankly, 00:12:22.880 --> 00:12:29.180 financially. We thrived numerically. We grew faster and larger than ever, reached more people than ever. 00:12:29.940 --> 00:12:36.880 And when we did have, even during full shutdowns, select embodied events, they were the largest 00:12:36.880 --> 00:12:43.260 embodied events we'd ever had and turned people away. I mean, we were capping events at 10,000 people 00:12:43.260 --> 00:12:49.880 because we couldn't have more than 10,000 at a time. So it was, it was a, so yeah, so the decision 00:12:49.880 --> 00:12:56.240 to move from multi-site to much more of an intentional hybrid model and, and realizing that the, what the 00:12:56.240 --> 00:13:03.060 type with the multi-site model was trying to overcome was best overcome digitally. The, the, the challenge 00:13:03.060 --> 00:13:08.580 was best met digitally for us is, has been, you know, a game changer. And I make the case in the book 00:13:08.580 --> 00:13:12.560 that I really do think that this is, this is, this is the way for all churches. And I don't, I don't, 00:13:12.860 --> 00:13:18.280 and I don't say that in an, in an arrogant way because there's all kinds of ways to be hybrid. 00:13:18.400 --> 00:13:22.620 So it doesn't have to look like Mac, but I think hybrid is the way for all churches because 00:13:22.620 --> 00:13:28.820 it is a reality that the digital revolution has taken place. It is the way we communicate. It is 00:13:28.820 --> 00:13:33.240 the way you interact with our mission field. And so if you're not going to be hybrid, you're going to 00:13:33.240 --> 00:13:37.440 be a painfully irrelevant removed from missional effectiveness. 00:13:38.100 --> 00:13:42.580 Yeah. I mean, obviously, I mean, you're saying missional over and over again. It's interesting. 00:13:42.680 --> 00:13:48.500 There's another church, um, uh, church home from the other coast over in California, Mark Mente, executive 00:13:48.500 --> 00:13:53.580 pastor over there is a good friend. And he talks about how you can spend millions of dollars to reach 00:13:53.580 --> 00:14:00.000 thousands of people in the building, or, or you can spend thousands of dollars online to reach 00:14:00.000 --> 00:14:05.580 millions of people online. And they, they have had a different strategy. I would probably suggest 00:14:05.580 --> 00:14:11.180 in what you're doing, but once again, it's tapping into the mission field that exists in, in digital 00:14:11.180 --> 00:14:17.460 space. And so both of your churches are very missional with, with that, that view. Um, and 00:14:17.460 --> 00:14:21.860 there's, there's a lot of churches that, that do have a missional view. And in 2023, it's so important 00:14:21.860 --> 00:14:27.080 to utilize digital for that. Um, but I'm, I'm curious just to pull the thread here a little bit, 00:14:27.500 --> 00:14:32.920 does digital, like aside from the missional getting into more of the, the discipleship, more of the, 00:14:32.920 --> 00:14:38.540 uh, the relational helping people grow deeper once they are connected into the church. Does digital play a 00:14:38.540 --> 00:14:42.380 role in that at, at Mecklenburg? What, what does that look like? Oh my gosh, it's everything. Yeah. 00:14:42.680 --> 00:14:47.280 I mean, when a hybrid model is your hybrid through and through, and, and all the hybrid is, is that 00:14:47.280 --> 00:14:51.980 you're both physical and digital. You're both embodied and online. And it's, it's kind of, and often 00:14:51.980 --> 00:14:56.860 you're both. And in fact, the typical person at Mac is both they're, they're, they're engaging the 00:14:56.860 --> 00:15:02.260 church in both ways and, and depending on any given week and on any given issue. And so that's what a 00:15:02.260 --> 00:15:07.160 hybrid is, is bringing both together. It's not solely one or the other. And that's where a lot of 00:15:07.160 --> 00:15:11.640 people I think make, um, uh, draw some erroneous conclusions because they just instantly hear 00:15:11.640 --> 00:15:15.640 digital, digital, digital, and you can't do this digital, or if it's all digital, that isn't church. 00:15:15.640 --> 00:15:22.860 And, and I keep saying, whoa, I chose my terms very carefully, hybrid, a combination, a blending of 00:15:22.860 --> 00:15:28.360 the digital and the physical. And when it comes to something like community or discipleship, you hear 00:15:28.360 --> 00:15:32.520 people say all the time, well, you can't do, can't do community online. You can't, you can't, 00:15:32.520 --> 00:15:36.720 can't do church online. And I, and I really bristle at that. And I, and I hope that I explain that 00:15:36.720 --> 00:15:40.840 carefully in the book of why that's, that's not a carefully worded or thought through statement. 00:15:41.240 --> 00:15:47.140 You can. In fact, if you talk to someone, say you're talking to a 20 year old and you're fewer 00:15:47.140 --> 00:15:50.040 to tell them you can't have community online, they would just simply say, well, I'm sorry, 00:15:50.040 --> 00:15:55.000 you can, and I do. And, and studies have shown that there's some aspects of that community that 00:15:55.000 --> 00:16:02.280 can even be deeper than what was experienced prior to that embodied. And so I think some of this is we, 00:16:02.280 --> 00:16:07.320 we build theological fences around our personal taste. And so if you don't like to read a book 00:16:07.320 --> 00:16:11.320 on Kindle, you all of a sudden are anti that being a legitimate way of reading. And, and, and that goes 00:16:11.320 --> 00:16:17.360 throughout so many different areas of life when it comes to the digital. And so, and I don't think 00:16:17.360 --> 00:16:21.640 that's a merely a generational thing. I've seen people in their thirties, just as resistant to some 00:16:21.640 --> 00:16:26.680 things out of personal sensibilities as someone in their seventies. And so I, I just think we just 00:16:26.680 --> 00:16:33.800 all have to be very careful with that at Mac discipleship is strategically served by, uh, 00:16:33.800 --> 00:16:38.840 all things digital. I mean, because really the heart of, of what the digital revolution allows 00:16:38.840 --> 00:16:46.200 is an entirely new approach to delivery and engagement. And so we have the bulk of our classes 00:16:46.200 --> 00:16:52.360 and courses are online, if not on demand, uh, or a blend of live and online. For example, 00:16:52.360 --> 00:16:57.400 we just did like a, I'll give you an example. Like, um, uh, we have this thing called the 00:16:57.400 --> 00:17:03.160 MEC Institute, which is like a community college vibe dynamic to our church. And, um, I recently 00:17:03.160 --> 00:17:08.520 did a systematic theology class. My, my PhD is in systematic theology. I was a professor of theology and 00:17:08.520 --> 00:17:12.680 seminary president. And, and so I have that, that background. So anyway, I was teaching in my, 00:17:12.680 --> 00:17:21.480 in a, in my wheelhouse of systematic theology and the way we did it was, was that I prerecorded 00:17:21.480 --> 00:17:30.680 a dozen lectures that were edited and, and, and with, and then made, you know, with nice overlays and 00:17:30.680 --> 00:17:36.120 other things. And so that it was, it was good consumable content that way production is produced 00:17:36.120 --> 00:17:42.040 with post-production, uh, qualities, things. And then we had a, a large zoom class 00:17:43.880 --> 00:17:53.080 and, uh, I think it was about 200, 250 students. And, uh, and so they, with a live host and they 00:17:53.080 --> 00:17:59.080 were live coming in for this lunchtime lecture. And then there was that interaction and live element, 00:17:59.080 --> 00:18:06.760 and then they showed my lecture. And then when that was over, I came on live for Q and A and 00:18:06.760 --> 00:18:12.040 it was this wonderful blend and, you know, people gathering in Starbucks and other places all over 00:18:12.040 --> 00:18:16.360 and, you know, for this class. And, and, and that was, um, we got more people through systematic 00:18:16.360 --> 00:18:20.840 theology through an online course like that than we ever would have had if we would have had it, 00:18:20.840 --> 00:18:27.400 you know, Thursday night at seven o'clock for 10 weeks. So it's delivery systems. Um, 00:18:28.280 --> 00:18:33.000 and also the building of community is much the same way. I mean, we're, we were very intentional 00:18:33.000 --> 00:18:38.680 about fostering online community, um, largely beginning through our online campus. And we can 00:18:38.680 --> 00:18:42.600 talk about what an online campus is. It's very different than just a Facebook feed. So it's a real 00:18:42.600 --> 00:18:47.800 campus. I mean, it's a, it's an actual staff campus with service times and everything else. So, 00:18:47.800 --> 00:18:54.600 and, um, and we were, uh, we were, we've been told we're among the first to offer a full online 00:18:54.600 --> 00:18:59.560 campus. We were doing that for years prior to even our digital switch. Let's, let's ask the question. 00:18:59.560 --> 00:19:04.840 Let's, let's dig into that. So what makes, what makes a campus, a campus, uh, an online campus, 00:19:04.840 --> 00:19:10.280 a campus at MEC? Yeah. I mean, what most churches do, which I, I, I applaud is some type of Facebook 00:19:10.280 --> 00:19:15.000 feed, some type of live stream and, or they just tape it and, uh, whatever they did on the weekend 00:19:15.000 --> 00:19:21.000 and slap it on YouTube for just people to just watch whenever they want. An online campus is 00:19:21.000 --> 00:19:25.960 just that it's a campus, just like ours. We say, we, we kind of joke, we're still multi-site. We 00:19:25.960 --> 00:19:30.120 just have one that's physical and one that's digital. The, the, the, a digital and online 00:19:30.120 --> 00:19:37.240 campus is a time with select very clear service times, pastors hosting it and other guests and 00:19:37.240 --> 00:19:42.840 guest services and greeters in the chat room and such. It's a, it's, um, it's designed for, 00:19:42.840 --> 00:19:48.840 to be an event and, and, uh, uh, I'd encourage people to go check it out at mecklenburg.org 00:19:48.840 --> 00:19:53.560 and they can see what an online campus looks like and feels like. It's very different. It's very 00:19:53.560 --> 00:19:59.560 interactive, very engaging. You, you, you're, you're, you're showing up for an event, a service, 00:20:00.200 --> 00:20:04.280 um, and people are building community through in the chat room. They can go offline and having 00:20:04.280 --> 00:20:10.920 prayer time with pastors. They can, it's, it's a live interactive thing, um, involving thousands 00:20:10.920 --> 00:20:17.320 and thousands of people. Um, and, um, it has its own kind of unique community environment. We have 00:20:17.320 --> 00:20:24.200 people like, there's a group of 30 or 40 that gather around it at one office bank office building 00:20:24.200 --> 00:20:29.240 here. There's another group of 17 that meet every Sunday at Starbucks. It started with, 00:20:29.240 --> 00:20:35.240 and most of them still aren't Christians. Um, and, um, and, and on and on it goes. So it's creating 00:20:35.240 --> 00:20:39.560 this own, their own groups from little gatherings around it. But obviously the average person is a 00:20:39.560 --> 00:20:44.360 single, just an attender. We're a family, but it's, it's an actual campus and everything, 00:20:44.360 --> 00:20:48.680 all the content is curated for online consumption. It's not something that's just a taped weekend 00:20:48.680 --> 00:20:54.120 service. I have a separate taping of my talk for the online campus with that, that is presented 00:20:54.120 --> 00:20:59.720 uh, for an online audience. And that does change how you present because you're not talking to 00:21:00.440 --> 00:21:06.360 thousands. You're talking to one, maybe two. Um, what our arts team does in terms of worship and 00:21:06.360 --> 00:21:11.800 other creative elements is completely filmed and created and curated and crafted separately from 00:21:11.800 --> 00:21:16.360 anything we do on the weekend announcements. Every, everything about that, the online campus is 00:21:16.360 --> 00:21:24.040 developed, curated for online consumption through the online campus. And, um, and, uh, 00:21:24.040 --> 00:21:26.360 uh, and it's extraordinarily effective. 00:21:26.840 --> 00:21:31.960 Is your, your staffing for it, for this, like, like producing, it's funny that you mentioned the 00:21:31.960 --> 00:21:35.560 first thing you said, it's like, we've got pastors to gather together. Are those physical pastors 00:21:35.560 --> 00:21:38.120 that are praying online? Are you staffing pastors? 00:21:38.120 --> 00:21:41.080 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's all live. Yeah. I mean, these are, I mean, we have, 00:21:41.080 --> 00:21:46.440 we have, um, pastors and staff populating the chat room present for every one of the online 00:21:46.440 --> 00:21:52.520 campus services, uh, volunteers, tech, uh, folk, uh, people like when you go into the chat room 00:21:52.520 --> 00:21:56.120 from our campus, you'll say, hi, somebody will be there, say, Hey, I'm pastor Robbie. If you want 00:21:56.120 --> 00:22:00.760 to talk or pray, we can go over to a private area. And other people say, hi, I'm the, the, 00:22:00.760 --> 00:22:05.640 the, the tech coordinator for this service. If you run into any problems, let me know. And you've got 00:22:05.640 --> 00:22:11.240 a host and guest services team and everything else in there. And so we'll probably have at least, 00:22:12.600 --> 00:22:18.920 I don't know, maybe half a dozen staff minimum, uh, uh, staffing every online campus service. 00:22:18.920 --> 00:22:22.600 Forgive me. I, I, I didn't ask the right question. What I was trying to get into was, 00:22:22.600 --> 00:22:29.480 are your staff exclusive for online or are you sharing responsibilities, physical and online 00:22:29.480 --> 00:22:33.880 church? Some are. Can you, can you detail like some of, of who's exclusive for online, 00:22:33.880 --> 00:22:38.760 what roles or what roles are shared? Do you know? Well, I mean, our, our, our, uh, 00:22:38.760 --> 00:22:45.320 director of our online campus who heads it all up is fully exclusively for that. We have a producer, 00:22:45.320 --> 00:22:52.280 a host, someone who, who is the main anchor for all that, who's totally dedicated to the online campus. 00:22:52.280 --> 00:23:01.240 We have, um, now our production folk and our creative team and our graphic arts and, and 00:23:01.240 --> 00:23:06.840 videographers and such work across the board, but there are some that are more, more dedicated to 00:23:06.840 --> 00:23:13.720 online, uh, campus consumption than others. And so we're a large staff. So I, I probably wouldn't 00:23:13.720 --> 00:23:21.000 be the right one to ask how exactly like, like MEC creative, how they've divided up all their 00:23:21.000 --> 00:23:26.600 responsibilities or how, you know, the production team has done that. But, um, but I do, we do have, 00:23:27.160 --> 00:23:32.440 you know, some staff completely devoted to the online campus and, and, uh, but everybody, 00:23:32.440 --> 00:23:36.600 there isn't anyone, and this may be really where you were going. There isn't anyone on our, on our team 00:23:38.280 --> 00:23:47.240 that isn't somehow engaged in serving, producing, facilitating, uh, the hybrid model, which means 00:23:47.240 --> 00:23:49.320 not simply the physical, but the digital as well. 00:23:49.880 --> 00:23:54.760 Does, does this trip down to kids and students, uh, Gen Z, Gen A, like, like... 00:23:54.760 --> 00:24:00.360 Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. We have full, our full MEC kids, MEC kids is fully online as well. 00:24:00.360 --> 00:24:05.320 And, and so that you can engage on any given week, whether if you want to, if you come to a physical, 00:24:06.280 --> 00:24:12.040 uh, campus, physical service for MEC kids, if not, you can engage it entirely online as well 00:24:12.040 --> 00:24:18.600 with material there and content and, and a full program, if you will. That's one of our, one of our, 00:24:18.600 --> 00:24:24.200 our real commitments is that everything that we offer, we're committed to a digital counterpart, 00:24:25.000 --> 00:24:30.280 a digital reflection. And if there's something we're offering digitally, we try to think through 00:24:30.920 --> 00:24:34.920 how can we offer that physically, but we're, we're more concerned about making sure that 00:24:34.920 --> 00:24:39.960 what's physical gets digital because not everything that's digital can go physical. I mean, you have 00:24:39.960 --> 00:24:45.320 much more opportunities and much more freedom, much more creativity when, with the digital. But, uh, 00:24:45.320 --> 00:24:49.880 but they, they don't often, that doesn't often work that way. I mean, sometimes we just simply say, 00:24:49.880 --> 00:24:56.120 okay, this is simply an embodied experience and, and it's, it's, we really can't have a digital 00:24:56.120 --> 00:25:03.800 counterpart to it. And sometimes it's vice versa. So, um, we're very clear about that. And, and, and 00:25:03.800 --> 00:25:09.240 even then we try to make it hybrid. Like for example, we have an 80 acre campus here and we have this 00:25:09.240 --> 00:25:15.720 thing called the MEC trail, which is a one mile nature outdoor chapel kind of vibe with benches by a 00:25:15.720 --> 00:25:21.800 running stream and, and select, you know, scriptures tastefully put is just a, it's a place of people 00:25:21.800 --> 00:25:26.520 just come and walk and sit and think and reflect and get away from the world and immerse themselves. 00:25:26.520 --> 00:25:31.240 And you feel like you're in the mountains away thousand miles from any city. So one of the things 00:25:31.240 --> 00:25:35.560 that we did, and we've done several things on the MEC trail, but besides just leaving it open as a 00:25:35.560 --> 00:25:40.520 chapel year round. But, uh, for example, on Good Friday, we had the 14 stations of the cross 00:25:41.560 --> 00:25:47.320 throughout the one mile loop. And then you could download through the MEC app, 00:25:48.040 --> 00:25:52.920 a program that would take you through it, like a museum guide and stop you at each one of the 00:25:52.920 --> 00:25:57.640 stations. And you could pause, go further, do anything you wanted to do to the degree that you 00:25:57.640 --> 00:26:03.160 wanted to with the content and, and create this very spiritual experience of walking through the 14 00:26:03.160 --> 00:26:07.800 stations with the history, the biblical background stories. And, um, you know, 00:26:07.800 --> 00:26:11.160 thousands of people went through that and just on their own, we just said, okay, I've done Friday, 00:26:11.160 --> 00:26:15.560 just, it's going to be open from nine to five, you know, take, bring your app and your, your, 00:26:15.560 --> 00:26:22.280 your, um, your ear pods and come, come go through it. And so you can, it's easy to blend those things too. 00:26:22.840 --> 00:26:26.200 Is you, what you're describing is blended. It's a great word. You're blending the physical 00:26:26.200 --> 00:26:31.160 and the digital you're, you're, you know, whether the, the, the, the fidgetal term, 00:26:31.160 --> 00:26:36.840 it doesn't matter if I buy the rake at home Depot or homedepot.com, the rake is still the rake and I 00:26:36.840 --> 00:26:41.400 use it the same way and I can intersperse. I can return it online if I bought physical and things like 00:26:41.400 --> 00:26:47.480 that. Yeah. And, and, and, and, and again, uh, we probably, we use the word fidgetal and I use the 00:26:47.480 --> 00:26:53.400 word fidgetal in the book and I explain it, but I, I, I use it in more of the, uh, uh, uh, you know, 00:26:53.400 --> 00:26:59.400 for, for me, and it doesn't mean this is right. Hybrid for me is a large umbrella term for this model. 00:26:59.400 --> 00:27:06.200 Fidgetal is what you do with your building and your campus. And that's kind of the way that it's, 00:27:06.200 --> 00:27:12.440 it's, it's, it's used in many business circles, meaning there's a seamless integration between 00:27:12.440 --> 00:27:21.320 technology when you interact with them physically. So when I, I can put, I can, I can put in my order 00:27:21.320 --> 00:27:25.560 and go pick it up at the store or what I see online is what's going to be like it in the store. And what, 00:27:25.560 --> 00:27:30.680 and if I go in the store, I can then just whip out my phone and I can do this, or I scan that QR code, 00:27:30.680 --> 00:27:35.400 or I can, there's this, there's like the, the building itself, everything about it is, 00:27:35.400 --> 00:27:40.040 it's very much like the way airports are. Um, before I get to the airport, I've already, 00:27:40.040 --> 00:27:44.760 I've already, um, onboarded. I've already gotten my boarding pass. I've already let them know I'm 00:27:44.760 --> 00:27:48.840 coming. I may have already secured my parking space all through my phone, all through my, you know, 00:27:48.840 --> 00:27:55.000 an app. And then, um, I'm able to seamlessly walk through with my phone to physically get my, 00:27:55.000 --> 00:27:59.720 my, you know, my boarding pass scan to get through security, which also gives them my TSA. 00:28:00.440 --> 00:28:05.880 And so, so far as I'm doing this physical act, but it's completely integrated with technology. 00:28:06.680 --> 00:28:12.520 And, and that's really what you're after with a fidgetal church building where you, you have 00:28:12.520 --> 00:28:17.000 everything where I'm, I'm on my way to church and I've, I've ordered, I've got coffee waiting for me at 00:28:17.000 --> 00:28:21.320 the bookstore that I've already pre-ordered and is there. And I've checked my kids into children's 00:28:21.320 --> 00:28:27.640 ministry. And, and when I'm in the service, I'm, I'm, I'm looking at the notes on the app that go 00:28:27.640 --> 00:28:32.200 along with the, with the talk, as well as where, where I can go further with it. And maybe a class 00:28:32.200 --> 00:28:35.640 that I can register and go ahead and shoot that off. And maybe I'm shooting off a prayer request 00:28:35.640 --> 00:28:40.280 as well. And there's this, there's a seamless integration between the physical and the digital 00:28:41.080 --> 00:28:46.440 with that. And, and we've found that that's critical because we reach people first online, 00:28:46.440 --> 00:28:51.080 largely through our online campus and digital marketing. And so if, and when they ever do 00:28:51.080 --> 00:28:55.160 come to the physical campus, we want there to be an absolute seamless integration between what 00:28:55.160 --> 00:29:00.600 they've already experienced and done and how they've engaged with us digitally. And so that's just 00:29:01.640 --> 00:29:02.600 thinking it through. 00:29:02.600 --> 00:29:08.920 Beautiful. I, you know what, to be honest, I may adapt. I like that digital approach in that, 00:29:08.920 --> 00:29:13.240 that terminology. I may, I may, I may adapt that. I may, I may steal that. I'll give you credit 00:29:13.240 --> 00:29:17.720 the first couple of times and you wrote it in the book. So you get credit for that publicly, 00:29:17.720 --> 00:29:25.640 I'm sure. Do you have people at MEC or MEC online, MEC, the, the, the hybrid campus, 00:29:25.640 --> 00:29:32.520 the online campus that aren't physical? Like, do you reach different states, time zones, countries, 00:29:32.520 --> 00:29:36.920 continents? Like what's, what's the reach of this thing? And what does it look like pastoring and 00:29:36.920 --> 00:29:38.280 shepherding people long distance? 00:29:38.280 --> 00:29:47.400 Yeah. We, we, we really don't try to have it be beyond, uh, uh, a tool for us as a local church 00:29:47.400 --> 00:29:55.640 to reach our immediate community. Um, it, we do have on any given weekend, our online campus is attracting 00:29:56.760 --> 00:30:01.000 almost every state in the United States and probably an additional 15, 20 countries or more 00:30:01.000 --> 00:30:08.760 on just any given service, but 70% or more of attenders at our online campus are in the Charlotte 00:30:08.760 --> 00:30:15.320 area. And for us, that's a win. That's what we're after. Um, uh, cause I, I do think there are some 00:30:15.320 --> 00:30:20.040 significant theological questions, uh, related to ecclesiology and, and the role of the pastor 00:30:20.840 --> 00:30:29.720 for the digital, you know, church and, uh, a larger reach and, and, and how that begins to manifest 00:30:29.720 --> 00:30:35.480 itself, which we can talk about if you want, but for us, it's very much, um, we have, we have a large 00:30:35.480 --> 00:30:42.120 reach, but we're, but our mindset is, is local, very strongly local. And again, it's all designed for 00:30:42.120 --> 00:30:48.440 outreach. And so we, but yes, we're reaching people all over. And, um, and like I said, 70% of our growth 00:30:48.440 --> 00:30:52.520 comes from people who are previously unchurched that includes online. Uh, it's, I mean, we can, 00:30:52.520 --> 00:30:56.120 you go into the chat room on any service and there's, you're going to throw a rock and you're 00:30:56.120 --> 00:30:59.480 going to hit an unchurched person and somebody who's not a Christian and they'll tell you they're 00:30:59.480 --> 00:31:03.000 not a Christian. They're much more open online. Well, let's, I mean, let's, let's go ahead and 00:31:03.000 --> 00:31:07.160 poke the bear a little bit here and maybe be respectful for it. Cause there are a lot of 00:31:07.160 --> 00:31:12.120 digital pastors and planters that are, that are on here. And by the way, you need to know that 00:31:13.240 --> 00:31:17.880 my approach towards a digital church planting and what we, we promote through digital 00:31:17.880 --> 00:31:24.360 church network and the church digital is far more, um, relational. Um, it's, it's much more like a, 00:31:24.920 --> 00:31:31.160 probably like a micro church approach of utilizing digital. And so it's building on those relationships 00:31:31.160 --> 00:31:36.600 and more discipleship centric and heavy. Uh, and, and, but you know, I've had plenty of people on here 00:31:36.600 --> 00:31:41.320 that disagree with me and, and I've had some hard conversations and we, we wear big boy pants and so 00:31:41.320 --> 00:31:48.920 it's okay. Um, so I like, I would love, what can you do? What, what would be the issue? What would 00:31:48.920 --> 00:31:55.480 be the challenge? Where, what's the obstacle in, in reaching somebody and discipling somebody? I don't 00:31:55.480 --> 00:32:03.880 know, uh, in California, in, um, in, uh, Eastern Europe, like somewhere that's not geographically 00:32:03.880 --> 00:32:09.160 centric. What are you sensitive to, uh, theologically ecclesiology in, in, in that standpoint? 00:32:09.160 --> 00:32:14.680 What I'm sensitive to is not so much, you know, you know, are there the challenges of reaching 00:32:14.680 --> 00:32:19.480 someone digitally for Christ? I think that's how you're going to need to reach them or even 00:32:19.480 --> 00:32:24.040 discipling them digitally. I think, I think discipleship is, is significantly going to be 00:32:24.040 --> 00:32:29.080 increasingly be digital in nature. All education is, I mean, that's, that's just simply the, the, 00:32:29.080 --> 00:32:33.880 the delivery system. And I make a strong, I hope I make a strong case for this. I mean, if, if 00:32:33.880 --> 00:32:41.160 people who read hybrid church are the ones that are going to be, um, uh, made uncomfortable are the 00:32:41.160 --> 00:32:47.320 ones who are not particularly open to digital things. So, but, but, but here's, here's the theologian 00:32:47.320 --> 00:32:54.680 in me. Um, it's not so much problems with evangelism or discipleship digitally. The concern that I have is 00:32:55.240 --> 00:33:02.520 being the church in the fullest biblical sense and theological sense. The doctrine of ecclesiology 00:33:02.520 --> 00:33:07.000 is one that, uh, many Christians, certainly evangelical Christians, but Christians as a 00:33:07.000 --> 00:33:11.400 whole have really dismissed and have not been careful with, and they've made of ecclesiology 00:33:11.400 --> 00:33:15.720 just whatever they wanted to be in their own image. And, and there's much more in the scriptures 00:33:15.720 --> 00:33:20.280 in a church history than that, I would say. And so I, I think it's more or less, how do you, 00:33:20.280 --> 00:33:24.680 how do you pastor? How do you, how do you function as a biblical community? What does need to be 00:33:24.680 --> 00:33:30.520 embodied? And when, and when there is a need for embodiment, um, then, um, how do you do that? 00:33:30.520 --> 00:33:37.720 Like there was, um, um, the author's name is, is he wrote Homo Sapiens, a very famous book. Um, 00:33:37.720 --> 00:33:43.160 the author's name is, is, or Sapiens, I'm sorry. But anyway, he was, he was saying that the challenge 00:33:43.800 --> 00:33:51.000 for the online world is that he said, you know, if I'm sick in London and I've got a cold, 00:33:52.120 --> 00:33:56.840 you know, you can express concern for me, you can check up on me, we can talk to each other, 00:33:56.840 --> 00:34:04.120 but you can't bring me a bowl of soup. And so there's limits to sometimes embodiment and, and, 00:34:04.120 --> 00:34:09.560 and, and, and when there is a need for embodiment and when there's a need for the practice of presence, 00:34:09.560 --> 00:34:15.080 as Douglas Stewart would talk about the great Quaker writer, or, um, when, um, and, and we are 00:34:15.080 --> 00:34:19.080 physical creatures. And so I do think that, that what we need to wrestle with, and it doesn't matter, 00:34:19.080 --> 00:34:22.680 and however we come out, we'll come out with different answers. But what we need to wrestle 00:34:22.680 --> 00:34:30.920 with as thoughtful thinking, biblical Christians, I would argue is what is optimal in terms of 00:34:30.920 --> 00:34:36.760 embodied? What is just as fine, if not better digital? And when can it be both depending upon 00:34:36.760 --> 00:34:42.680 someone's personal tastes and sensibilities? And so as a pastor, you do have to ask yourself, okay, 00:34:42.680 --> 00:34:47.720 are all the one another's possible digitally? I would argue the vast majority, if not most are, 00:34:47.720 --> 00:34:55.880 but it's a, it's a good question. You know, um, we do the Lord's Supper online. Uh, does that work 00:34:55.880 --> 00:35:03.560 for baptism? Um, and, and, and, and, and if you're going to have somebody be baptized and not baptize 00:35:03.560 --> 00:35:06.920 themselves, and if there's going to be public profession of faith, and how are you working those 00:35:06.920 --> 00:35:11.720 things? There can be ways of solving this, but I mean, we have to wrestle with solving it in a way 00:35:11.720 --> 00:35:16.040 that's biblical and theological. And so that's, that's what I mean. So what does it mean to be the 00:35:16.040 --> 00:35:25.480 church? And how, and so I, I personally don't know that Mech could be the church fully for someone who 00:35:25.480 --> 00:35:34.120 never could do anything of an embodied nature. Um, I, I'm not sure. At least I would, I would be 00:35:34.120 --> 00:35:38.760 concerned about them because I, I would, I would, I would at least want them to try to get connected 00:35:38.760 --> 00:35:47.640 with people in that area for embodied community when they need it. You know, um, even if it's something 00:35:47.640 --> 00:35:54.120 as simple as someone who can stand with them by their side at a funeral and, and, and, you know, 00:35:54.680 --> 00:35:59.880 you bring up a lot of great questions. Um, and, and there are people that are, and for the most of 00:35:59.880 --> 00:36:06.300 the part, I, I want to just say, I, I agree with you. Like there are people that, um, that need the 00:36:06.300 --> 00:36:11.840 physicality. And by the way, there are digital churches that meet physical periodically. Uh, there's, 00:36:11.840 --> 00:36:17.760 uh, it's not necessarily weekly. Uh, I can tell you Cornerstone VR, Cornerstone Yuba City. Uh, they, 00:36:17.880 --> 00:36:23.160 they fly in people from the virtual reality campus once a year and they do a family reunion in San 00:36:23.160 --> 00:36:27.800 Francisco, Northern California area. And it's, it's, it's an incredible experience. They're actually 00:36:27.800 --> 00:36:33.960 talking about doing the next family reunion in, um, London because they've got a lot of, uh, London 00:36:33.960 --> 00:36:39.240 and England people that attend in the virtual reality church. And so, so physicality, there's options. 00:36:39.660 --> 00:36:43.660 Um, you know, I've, I wrote, uh, this is your book that we're talking hybrid church, but the book that 00:36:43.660 --> 00:36:48.500 I wrote sharing Jesus online, we talk a lot about serving people. And it's interesting. You're 00:36:48.500 --> 00:36:54.180 nobody, you can't digital church can't serve a coffee or a serve, would you say chili soup? Uh, 00:36:54.180 --> 00:36:58.380 and that's, that's, that's, it's funny. Cause when I had COVID actually had people sending me, 00:36:58.380 --> 00:37:06.000 um, Gatorade and my favorite candy, uh, via, uh, Uber eats people I've never met were sending me 00:37:06.000 --> 00:37:09.460 things to encourage me. As a matter of fact, a percentage of the bobbleheads that are 00:37:09.460 --> 00:37:12.720 behind me, I actually have no idea where they came from. They just show up at my house 00:37:12.720 --> 00:37:17.980 because people send me random things to encourage me. Like, and so it's, it's re-imagining some 00:37:17.980 --> 00:37:23.160 things, whether that's, you know, it's, it's funny, uh, James, I, I literally, I, I, I tell 00:37:23.160 --> 00:37:28.620 this to people all the time. I will stand before God one day. Uh, and, and my opening question 00:37:28.620 --> 00:37:32.520 is what did I get right? And what did I get wrong? And I'm sorry for what I got wrong. Cause 00:37:32.520 --> 00:37:35.460 I know that we're re-imagining some things in this. 00:37:35.780 --> 00:37:40.020 Yeah. Well, I, and, and it's that season, Jeff, and, and I think we're, we're all doing 00:37:40.020 --> 00:37:45.400 it. And I, I would rather, you know, it's, it's, it's, I'd rather the church kind of be 00:37:45.400 --> 00:37:50.160 pulled back a little bit if it goes too far than always having to be pushed to try to get 00:37:50.160 --> 00:37:55.080 going. And then, you know, if it's reaching people, my default mode is to like it. If, if 00:37:55.080 --> 00:38:01.140 it's connecting people to Jesus, I, my default mode is to like it. And, um, and I think that, 00:38:01.160 --> 00:38:08.860 uh, with all things hybrid and digital right now, um, it's, it's going to be a little theologically 00:38:08.860 --> 00:38:14.040 messy at times because we're, we're thinking through things that we don't have historical 00:38:14.040 --> 00:38:19.620 precedent for. You know, we can't go to origin or Melanchthon or Bart or Bruner to give us 00:38:19.620 --> 00:38:23.740 insight into, you know, some of the questions that we're raising here. Um, but that's also what's 00:38:23.740 --> 00:38:27.720 exciting about it and wonderful about it. We can go to Elon Musk, but how much do we really 00:38:27.720 --> 00:38:31.640 trust Elon Musk to speak into this stuff? But, uh, but I, you know, but I, I, I mean, I love, 00:38:31.760 --> 00:38:38.420 I love the, the, the challenge of this. And I, and, and I, I think that, uh, in, in concert 00:38:38.420 --> 00:38:44.360 with you, I think that we need to be, um, aggressive in our embrace of all things digital. 00:38:44.740 --> 00:38:50.080 What are you guys doing? Is metaverse, is virtual reality, is this on your radar? Like what, 00:38:50.080 --> 00:38:53.720 what's your opinion and take on this? Well, it is obviously. Um, 00:38:53.720 --> 00:39:00.360 um, I think, um, it's been interesting to see how, how that like one new cycle, it's, it's, 00:39:00.560 --> 00:39:06.940 it's the next big thing. The next new cycle, it's, it's oddly absent. And, and it's like, 00:39:06.940 --> 00:39:13.200 I think everybody's trying to figure out exactly, is this going to be the next just huge thing? Or is, 00:39:13.280 --> 00:39:16.680 is it going to be something that people dabble with and say, I don't, I'm not sure that that's 00:39:16.680 --> 00:39:23.820 my cup of tea. Um, the, um, I think everybody needs to have their eye on it. I think every 00:39:23.820 --> 00:39:29.840 church should, if they can experiment with it and see, you know, look at it through a missional lens 00:39:29.840 --> 00:39:42.820 and see if it has potential. Um, I, I do have some questions, um, about what, how much a virtual act 00:39:43.060 --> 00:39:51.840 should replace an embodied act and, and what that means for spiritual formation as well as what God 00:39:51.840 --> 00:39:58.740 actually is asking us to do. Um, I, I don't agree. I, I do have problems with virtual baptisms because I 00:39:58.740 --> 00:40:03.060 don't think that really is a public profession of faith. Uh, you're, you're, you're, you're, 00:40:03.200 --> 00:40:07.000 when you're, when it's your avatar doing it, but not you, I, I think that that's a, that's a, 00:40:07.300 --> 00:40:11.580 that, that to me is that's tricky theological waters. And I think that we need to go very slowly 00:40:11.580 --> 00:40:17.400 there. And so I do think there are some things that, that those are the kinds of questions we 00:40:17.400 --> 00:40:21.800 need to be wrestling with. By the way, the people that are even doing the work in virtual reality 00:40:21.800 --> 00:40:26.480 that are in that metaverse mission field, most of them would agree with you, or at least are asking 00:40:26.480 --> 00:40:30.060 the same questions where I don't know that I'm comfortable with that. Probably the most 00:40:30.060 --> 00:40:34.080 controversial thing I've ever said in my life is virtual reality baptism, at least according to 00:40:34.080 --> 00:40:40.260 my YouTube comments and the negativity surrounding that. So, um, definitely understand the controversial 00:40:40.260 --> 00:40:47.140 nature of that. Um, the, the opportunities for evangelism, the opportunities to have conversations 00:40:47.140 --> 00:40:52.920 with people without getting, uh, F bombed because I mean, some of these worlds that literally is 00:40:52.920 --> 00:40:59.200 technology is designed to connect people together in a virtual environment for a conversation. Like 00:40:59.200 --> 00:41:06.200 that's what virtual reality is meant to do. And so the ability to represent Jesus, uh, to champion that 00:41:06.200 --> 00:41:11.840 idea in, in these, in these mission fields is incredible. And, and, and, oh, I totally agree. 00:41:11.920 --> 00:41:16.740 And, and in that sense, I don't think there's any, any barriers, any hindrances, anything that we need 00:41:16.740 --> 00:41:22.340 to be pulling back from and using the metaverse for that or anything else. Again, it's, it's kind of 00:41:22.340 --> 00:41:26.820 going back to what we talked about earlier. How far do we go with that? Like, do we create an entire 00:41:26.820 --> 00:41:33.620 virtual church and virtual and have, and have many of the acts be simply virtual? Like even the Lord's 00:41:33.620 --> 00:41:39.560 supper? Do you, is it, is it, do you simply have that taken virtually or is there something 00:41:39.560 --> 00:41:44.480 biblically and theologically? No, you physically have to take that. That's, that's part of the body 00:41:44.480 --> 00:41:49.600 and the blood of Christ. And so you have these things that were, that, um, where I think people 00:41:49.600 --> 00:41:54.840 who are evangelistic animals, which it sounds like you are as much of one as I am, but if you're an 00:41:54.840 --> 00:42:00.420 evangelistic animal, it's like, okay, I'm not, I, but I'm not going to let my evangelistic zeal blind 00:42:00.420 --> 00:42:06.960 me to what happens maybe after someone has become a Christian and what is best in terms of, uh, for 00:42:06.960 --> 00:42:13.900 that and, and next steps. And, um, and I would argue as, as you would imagine that whatever happens 00:42:13.900 --> 00:42:18.440 after that is probably going to have some dynamic of a hybrid nature to it. 00:42:19.200 --> 00:42:24.520 Yeah. And the, it's interesting. Like I can actually tell you stories of people that have 00:42:24.520 --> 00:42:31.340 accepted Christ in virtual reality and the church that, um, that one person, these are two separate 00:42:31.340 --> 00:42:37.640 stories. One person got baptized and, uh, the virtual, in virtual reality, the avatar went under the 00:42:37.640 --> 00:42:43.560 water other people saw, but the virtual reality church said, Hey, why don't you go to a local church 00:42:43.560 --> 00:42:50.480 and get baptized? And so this is a true story. I promise this girl went to a local church here in 00:42:50.480 --> 00:42:55.880 America and, uh, and had a conversation with the pastor, but getting baptized, the pastor said, what 00:42:55.880 --> 00:43:01.220 actually happened to you? Uh, and the girl described to the pastor, what the baptism process, the 00:43:01.220 --> 00:43:06.660 conversations, everything. And literally this physical pastor at the small town church, I forget what 00:43:06.660 --> 00:43:11.600 state, uh, said, we don't need to baptize you again. You already baptized, but you did count it. Now that 00:43:11.600 --> 00:43:17.820 was his take. I get it. Um, there, there's another story of a girl, uh, another girl, this girl's in 00:43:17.820 --> 00:43:23.900 England who accepted Christ and in the church encouraged her in virtual reality, the church encouraged 00:43:23.900 --> 00:43:30.680 her, Hey, why don't you go to a physical church? And so this, this girl, 24 years old, um, went to four 00:43:30.680 --> 00:43:36.800 different churches over the span of six weeks. And according to her, no physical person in the 00:43:36.800 --> 00:43:41.840 physical church said one word to her. Now she's, she's a little bit of a wallflower. I honestly, I 00:43:41.840 --> 00:43:47.060 can understand from the church context how this probably could have happened. It's not okay, but 00:43:47.060 --> 00:43:55.520 it's, it's, it's almost understandable because she's so socially, um, awkward as, as an individual. 00:43:55.520 --> 00:44:00.180 And so, you know, even at the physical churches, there's challenges with some of these things. And 00:44:00.180 --> 00:44:04.380 so she feels pressure. I want to go back to my virtual reality friends because I wasn't able to 00:44:04.380 --> 00:44:10.440 make physical friends in that space. And see, and see, and, and, and see, I would not like, for 00:44:10.440 --> 00:44:14.740 example, just, just to be clear, if someone is attending Mac through their online campus, we don't 00:44:14.740 --> 00:44:19.900 say, Hey, the goal is for you to get to a physical campus. We don't, we actually say no, no, no. We 00:44:19.900 --> 00:44:25.160 say we're very content with you to be online. If that's how you choose to engage and attend, that's 00:44:25.160 --> 00:44:31.340 fine. Um, but you know, that doesn't mean there aren't steps that you can take, uh, toward whether 00:44:31.340 --> 00:44:36.360 it's membership or discipleship or community and much of which, if not all of that can be done online. 00:44:36.820 --> 00:44:42.720 But what we were very content for someone to say, I attend online. That's, that's, that's Mac is my 00:44:42.720 --> 00:44:47.860 church. I attend online that we're very comfortable with that. But see, here's, here's what's, here's 00:44:47.860 --> 00:44:53.640 what's different about the hybrid model. The hybrid model is able to say to that person, Hey, when, 00:44:53.720 --> 00:45:01.200 and if you ever have an embodied need, when, and if you need a physical touch, when we're here, 00:45:02.000 --> 00:45:07.520 there's a community of people here that is not simply digital, but it's also can, is embodied. 00:45:08.500 --> 00:45:14.020 And we found it really interesting. Um, uh, we have people that will attend online. They'll come 00:45:14.020 --> 00:45:17.600 to a physical campus and say, Oh, I don't like that as much. I'm back online. And we're saying, 00:45:17.640 --> 00:45:22.180 that's fine. We're not after that. What we want you to feel comfortable with is to take advantage of 00:45:22.180 --> 00:45:29.340 everything we have to offer you as a church, both digital and physical. And, and, and it's, 00:45:29.340 --> 00:45:36.540 and it's interesting that, that people love that, that hybrid nature where they, they, and most people 00:45:36.540 --> 00:45:42.400 are largely physical or largely digital, but they love the freedom when they can swing to the other 00:45:42.400 --> 00:45:49.680 side. And so, um, so that works. And, and so, yeah. For physical churches that are listening to this 00:45:49.680 --> 00:45:56.400 conversation, what he just said is gold. Like I think having the hybrid approach where physical people 00:45:56.400 --> 00:46:01.900 can connect digital, digital people can engage physical and get the embodiment access. Uh, and so 00:46:01.900 --> 00:46:07.300 this is what you built hybrid church around. And so I would love for anybody listening, we'll put the 00:46:07.300 --> 00:46:13.560 link in the show notes, download it, or buy it from amazon.com or churchandculture.org or.com. 00:46:13.600 --> 00:46:20.280 Org. Dot.org. But I did want to bounce this idea off, off you. And, and, and I didn't know I was 00:46:20.280 --> 00:46:25.540 going to have this conversation with you walking in. We're actually getting ready to launch season five 00:46:25.540 --> 00:46:31.080 of the church digital podcast next week. So this is a teaser even for this. Um, but what we're talking 00:46:31.080 --> 00:46:36.940 about doing there is taking digital ministry or, or, or metaverse ministry, even to the next level. 00:46:36.940 --> 00:46:41.600 We're doing a, a learning community with leadership network in the fall, uh, leadership network 00:46:41.600 --> 00:46:45.900 exponential. Are you familiar? Yeah. Okay. And so I work with leadership network as their digital and 00:46:45.900 --> 00:46:55.700 metaverse next guy. And so the, but with this learning community, we're helping churches go on a metaverse 00:46:55.700 --> 00:47:01.960 mission trip. We're helping churches get exposure to virtual reality, to the community and engaging in 00:47:01.960 --> 00:47:08.440 that mission field. Uh, our hope is to get 250 people, uh, here through leadership network. We're also 00:47:08.440 --> 00:47:13.880 working with GACX, uh, which is campus crusade globally, uh, for international mission partners, 00:47:13.880 --> 00:47:19.200 but empowering 250 people through a number of churches to go on metaverse mission trips and 00:47:19.200 --> 00:47:24.080 start to explore the idea of these communities and what church would look like in that space. 00:47:24.080 --> 00:47:29.560 And so we'd love to invite MEC in, into this as forward facing as you are in digital, 00:47:29.780 --> 00:47:35.440 giving you a space and an opportunity to explore that. We can talk off air on that, but it just, 00:47:35.560 --> 00:47:42.740 as I, I was not expecting in you, um, and, and provide grace for this comment. I was not expecting in 00:47:42.740 --> 00:47:49.280 you the, uh, the missional nature. Um, I believe pastors often are you're a former multi-site church, 00:47:49.280 --> 00:47:55.020 so it makes sense, but like, this was a surprise how you're recognizing so much of the mission field 00:47:55.020 --> 00:48:01.900 digitally, because oftentimes lead pastors of large churches transparently don't. And so I really 00:48:01.900 --> 00:48:08.320 respect that. And I would love to take Mecklenburg through this journey, start to explore, and maybe 00:48:08.320 --> 00:48:12.600 even help to see you start to wrestle with some of this stuff. Plus I would love to be proven wrong. 00:48:12.920 --> 00:48:17.380 And so somebody like you to really come through and, and hammer this and make these ideas better 00:48:17.380 --> 00:48:21.760 would be really exciting to me. If, if you were interested, we can, we can talk off air on that. 00:48:22.040 --> 00:48:25.260 So, um, Hey, as, as we're landing the plane here, any, any closing thoughts? 00:48:25.680 --> 00:48:29.660 No, I hope people will give the book, uh, uh, a read if they're interested in this. We, uh, you know, 00:48:29.660 --> 00:48:35.160 I have sections on the, the metaverse and, and other things, but it's a, it's a cultural tour 00:48:35.160 --> 00:48:41.200 as well as a, as a, as a practical tour. That's kind of, is, is what I tried to do is to, 00:48:41.200 --> 00:48:47.940 you know, um, here are the signs of the times and here is how we should live. And so, uh, and, 00:48:48.060 --> 00:48:52.740 and it has really two angles to it and it's not just the digital revolution, but the new post-Christian 00:48:52.740 --> 00:49:00.100 world and the, the challenges is that brings to bear for the mission. And, uh, so it gives equal 00:49:00.100 --> 00:49:04.540 treatment to that because it is the, the reason that the digital revolution is so important is 00:49:04.540 --> 00:49:08.680 because it's the way to communicate to this new mission field, which is the post-Christian world 00:49:08.680 --> 00:49:14.560 and understanding the nature of that post-Christian world is as important as being, um, adept at all 00:49:14.560 --> 00:49:19.560 things digital. So it brings all that together. So I hope people will, um, give it a, give it a 00:49:19.560 --> 00:49:23.760 glance. And if something that they feel would serve the wider church that they would, uh, share with 00:49:23.760 --> 00:49:29.660 others. Beautiful. So check out hybrid church, the book, Amazon, our church and culture, church and 00:49:29.660 --> 00:49:34.880 culture.org. Uh, more information there. We'll put the link in the show notes, uh, James Emery 00:49:34.880 --> 00:49:39.860 Weitzer. Thank you very much. It's been a pleasure to have you on the podcast and, uh, would love to do it 00:49:39.860 --> 00:49:46.360 again sometime as the book expands or, or as, uh, more things expand in the life of Mecklenburg 00:49:46.360 --> 00:49:50.480 church. But for James, this is Jeff with the church, digital, digital church network, leadership 00:49:50.480 --> 00:49:54.360 network, and a whole bunch of other fun stuff. Thanks for jumping on the podcast here and y'all 00:49:54.360 --> 00:49:55.560 have a good day. Talk to you later.