WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:04.840 Welcome to the Church Digital Podcast. Through this podcast, we'll talk about the technological 00:00:04.840 --> 00:00:10.920 innovations within the church. But more than tech for tech itself, we'll address deeper questions. 00:00:11.760 --> 00:00:16.640 Is disciple making possible digitally? How should we approach the digital mission field? 00:00:17.380 --> 00:00:22.440 Can a biblically grounded church operate in digital space? Oh, and where does the metaverse 00:00:22.440 --> 00:00:27.920 fit into all this? Whether you're a big or small church, an established church, or a startup church 00:00:27.920 --> 00:00:33.840 plant. The Church Digital's goal is to help churches like yours learn to be a multiplying church, 00:00:34.460 --> 00:00:40.460 digitally and physically. Our heart? That churches like yours will discover a newfound focus on 00:00:40.460 --> 00:00:46.800 disciple making that will revolutionize your church. And now, here's your host, Jeff Reed. 00:00:47.380 --> 00:00:52.720 All right. Hey, everybody. It's episode 274. 274 of the Church Digital Podcast. Jeff Reed here, 00:00:53.240 --> 00:00:58.560 founder of the Church Digital, Digital Church Network. And well, let's just say Dave Ferguson 00:00:58.560 --> 00:01:04.500 signs multiple of my paychecks. And therefore, it is my pleasure to have Dave Ferguson on this show 00:01:04.500 --> 00:01:10.680 today. I have said it publicly many times, and Dave Ferguson, we trust. So therefore, I'm really going 00:01:10.680 --> 00:01:15.020 to love having this podcast conversation with Dave. We'll get into what we're going to talk about 00:01:15.020 --> 00:01:19.840 here in a little bit. Before we get there, hey, this season here, we're talking about taking your 00:01:19.840 --> 00:01:24.860 digital and metaverse ministry to the next level. And so to do that, we've really been tying all this 00:01:24.860 --> 00:01:29.660 together into our learning communities that we're running through Leadership Network. You see, we've 00:01:29.660 --> 00:01:35.360 got a digital learning community. We're helping churches that have digital ministry that are maybe 00:01:35.360 --> 00:01:39.940 broadcasting a church service online and maybe toying with the idea of small groups. We're really 00:01:39.940 --> 00:01:46.540 helping them take next steps beyond what they're doing centered around the weekend, looking at, hey, 00:01:46.540 --> 00:01:51.500 what digital community could look like, what maybe even digital planting looks like, starting to 00:01:51.500 --> 00:01:57.300 more better, I don't know if that's good English, more better understand what digital community is 00:01:57.300 --> 00:02:02.760 beyond just digital communication. Dave Ferguson is literally laughing at me. This is incredible. 00:02:03.500 --> 00:02:07.240 So hey, look, if you're interested in the digital learning community, it's leadnet.org slash 00:02:07.240 --> 00:02:14.880 DLC. Leadnet.org slash DLC. Metaverse, maybe you're interested in exploring the metaverse, 00:02:15.560 --> 00:02:19.680 understanding what virtual reality and what churches are. The huge missional opportunity 00:02:19.680 --> 00:02:25.620 that exists in the virtual reality space. And so how to have conversations, how to share Jesus, 00:02:26.000 --> 00:02:30.600 how to be the church in virtual reality, wearing that new Apple headset that's going to be coming 00:02:30.600 --> 00:02:34.400 out in a couple of weeks that everybody and their mother is going to pay $3,000 for. I'm not kidding. 00:02:34.520 --> 00:02:39.280 It's going to revolutionize things. Listen, if you're interested in the leadership network, 00:02:39.520 --> 00:02:42.880 metaverse learning community, that's leadnet.org slash 00:02:42.880 --> 00:02:46.600 MLC, metaverse learning community for that one. We've got 00:02:46.600 --> 00:02:50.880 incredible co-leaders in this. It's going to be a great learning community. 00:02:51.300 --> 00:02:53.760 Oh, and did I mention the metaverse mission trip? Now you have to 00:02:53.760 --> 00:02:58.760 go back to some past podcasts to understand how we are challenging churches like yours to go on a mission trip 00:02:58.760 --> 00:03:02.820 into virtual reality and how churches are already doing that. Organizations globally 00:03:02.820 --> 00:03:07.100 are doing that alongside you with that. So some really awesome things. 00:03:07.200 --> 00:03:10.080 Leadnet.org slash DLC for digital learning community, 00:03:10.580 --> 00:03:13.900 MLC for the metaverse learning community, and we'll put the links in the show notes. 00:03:14.380 --> 00:03:18.140 Dave, how was that for commercials? Was that like, was it short, succinct? 00:03:18.220 --> 00:03:20.000 Was it too long? Like, give me some criticism. 00:03:20.320 --> 00:03:22.940 That was awesome. Number 274, huh? 00:03:24.360 --> 00:03:29.440 Dang. 274. I wanted to call this to your attention. 00:03:29.620 --> 00:03:30.840 You sound like Kerry Newhoff. 00:03:32.260 --> 00:03:36.120 No, no, no, no. Kerry Newhoff. Well, Kerry Newhoff's been doing a lot. 00:03:36.120 --> 00:03:39.280 And Kerry Newhoff is, you know, funding behind what he's doing. 00:03:39.920 --> 00:03:46.380 But what's interesting is I had you on, this is years ago, for the 10,000th podcast. 00:03:46.860 --> 00:03:52.380 Like, your episode was the 10,000th podcast play that we had had through the Church Digital. 00:03:52.600 --> 00:03:55.020 And just a week or so ago, we... 00:03:55.020 --> 00:03:57.700 By, let's be honest, by accident. 00:03:58.240 --> 00:04:02.700 It's not like you're going, hey, 10,000, we should get Dave Ferguson on to celebrate. 00:04:02.880 --> 00:04:07.500 No, it was like, oh, crap, look, we just wasted our 10,000th episode on Ferguson. 00:04:07.720 --> 00:04:08.500 That's what happened. 00:04:09.400 --> 00:04:12.040 Oh, the humility in the room. This is so great. 00:04:12.160 --> 00:04:14.420 But we had, we just hit 100,000 plays. 00:04:14.660 --> 00:04:15.360 Just the truth. 00:04:15.360 --> 00:04:16.540 Yeah. That's awesome. 00:04:16.800 --> 00:04:19.900 So, listen, that was exciting for us. 00:04:20.580 --> 00:04:22.080 We've been doing this pre-COVID. 00:04:22.080 --> 00:04:26.240 We started 20, I want to say 2018 or 2019. 00:04:26.540 --> 00:04:28.120 I'd actually have to go back and look. 00:04:28.720 --> 00:04:30.200 And it's been a lot of... 00:04:30.200 --> 00:04:34.020 That's good timing for what you're pushing here. 00:04:34.640 --> 00:04:36.120 It's been a lot of learnings. 00:04:36.140 --> 00:04:37.080 It's been a lot of fun. 00:04:37.360 --> 00:04:41.440 And you have been on three times, I believe. 00:04:41.580 --> 00:04:44.920 And so, we're excited to have you on here for number three here. 00:04:45.200 --> 00:04:46.420 And, you know, it's funny. 00:04:46.480 --> 00:04:47.160 I just got a text. 00:04:47.420 --> 00:04:47.940 Go ahead. 00:04:48.020 --> 00:04:48.580 And I'll tell you what. 00:04:48.660 --> 00:04:50.160 Let me give you a little plug, okay? 00:04:50.220 --> 00:04:52.380 And I'll tell all your audience, too. 00:04:53.660 --> 00:04:55.500 This goes back to one of our initial conversations. 00:04:55.500 --> 00:05:00.600 I do feel like, for some reason, God's favor is on you. 00:05:00.920 --> 00:05:09.940 And he's kind of like teed you up for such an important, I think, mission and part of the mission during this season of the life of the church. 00:05:10.200 --> 00:05:13.760 So, I think it's pretty cool to get to be Jeff Reed. 00:05:13.940 --> 00:05:14.220 Yeah. 00:05:15.720 --> 00:05:20.260 Every once in a while, God gives little sneak peeks. 00:05:21.380 --> 00:05:29.320 I don't think I've got the full vision in sight, but just little glimpses of what he's working on. 00:05:30.060 --> 00:05:32.900 And to be honest, I'm struggling to keep up. 00:05:33.800 --> 00:05:38.740 And so, it's going to be really exciting, I think, the next couple months. 00:05:39.740 --> 00:05:47.420 As some of these opportunities and some of these God things start to actually come to fruition. 00:05:48.180 --> 00:05:52.280 Some of the conversations now here in the U.S. and even globally. 00:05:53.900 --> 00:05:55.140 Literally, I had a conversation. 00:05:55.300 --> 00:05:57.980 I don't even think that I've updated the New Thing team on this yesterday. 00:05:58.040 --> 00:06:02.780 But I had a conversation yesterday that I just about fell out of my seat when it was done. 00:06:02.820 --> 00:06:03.260 Let's hear it. 00:06:03.360 --> 00:06:03.480 Huh? 00:06:03.860 --> 00:06:04.220 Oh, no, no. 00:06:04.220 --> 00:06:04.940 I can't say it. 00:06:05.080 --> 00:06:05.760 Give me a little hint. 00:06:05.940 --> 00:06:06.040 Come on. 00:06:06.260 --> 00:06:06.860 No, no, no. 00:06:06.960 --> 00:06:07.980 You can't do that to me. 00:06:07.980 --> 00:06:11.360 I mean, Futurist is like one of my top strength finders. 00:06:11.520 --> 00:06:12.420 And it's like you're teasing me. 00:06:12.480 --> 00:06:14.520 So, give us a little bit of something to go on. 00:06:14.520 --> 00:06:15.660 Okay, so let's… 00:06:15.660 --> 00:06:17.960 Why the adrenaline rush from yesterday's conversation? 00:06:17.960 --> 00:06:19.200 I had a… 00:06:19.200 --> 00:06:21.920 Not even a Christian tech company. 00:06:22.340 --> 00:06:27.720 Yesterday, I had a full-on tech company offer me a full-time job. 00:06:29.720 --> 00:06:30.080 Nice. 00:06:30.720 --> 00:06:31.160 And why? 00:06:31.580 --> 00:06:32.500 What was it so… 00:06:32.500 --> 00:06:35.580 What was so compelling that they're going like, hey, we need Jeffree. 00:06:35.680 --> 00:06:36.420 We got to pay him bucks. 00:06:36.480 --> 00:06:37.520 We got to pay a full salary. 00:06:37.640 --> 00:06:39.120 What was the… 00:06:39.120 --> 00:06:47.320 A tech company is trying to launch 1,800 to 5,500 churches in virtual reality in the 00:06:47.320 --> 00:06:47.980 next 12 months. 00:06:48.560 --> 00:06:50.360 Not a Christian tech company. 00:06:50.920 --> 00:06:56.260 A tech company that's developing a virtual reality platform wants to see church engagement 00:06:56.260 --> 00:07:00.740 to the point where they're asking for 1,800 to 5,500 churches to get launched on their platform. 00:07:02.180 --> 00:07:06.780 And I'm guessing for them, they just said, this is an untapped market. 00:07:07.540 --> 00:07:15.420 There's huge opportunities to use the religious in that space to drive engagement into their platform. 00:07:15.720 --> 00:07:19.580 There's a monetary subscription to use the platform. 00:07:19.860 --> 00:07:22.500 I mean, this has not been a factor from top to bottom. 00:07:23.200 --> 00:07:25.600 But incredible opportunities there. 00:07:25.760 --> 00:07:26.540 And so that's… 00:07:26.540 --> 00:07:29.340 I mean, that's just one really small… 00:07:29.340 --> 00:07:31.620 And I'm like, okay, I'm not taking a full-time job. 00:07:31.620 --> 00:07:33.000 We got to figure this out. 00:07:33.100 --> 00:07:33.900 I got a nonprofit. 00:07:34.040 --> 00:07:34.680 Let's run it through that. 00:07:34.760 --> 00:07:35.460 Let's create a partnership. 00:07:35.760 --> 00:07:38.000 We're kind of talking through some of this now. 00:07:39.420 --> 00:07:40.420 But this is… 00:07:40.420 --> 00:07:46.180 And they're looking for opportunities to engage and to get better connected in the Christian 00:07:46.180 --> 00:07:50.700 space and to get connected to churches and Christian tech companies for integrations. 00:07:51.460 --> 00:07:55.860 And so, yeah, there's just this, yeah, let's keep talking. 00:07:56.000 --> 00:07:57.140 And that's one of… 00:07:57.140 --> 00:07:58.700 Dave, I'll just be honest with you. 00:07:58.700 --> 00:08:03.220 And when I'm doing this recording right now, I'm having nine conversations like that in 00:08:03.220 --> 00:08:08.600 the next two weeks of just nine different either Christian organizations, Christian tech 00:08:08.600 --> 00:08:12.680 companies, corporations, non-Christian corporations that are interested. 00:08:13.140 --> 00:08:16.480 Like, there's this wave of… 00:08:16.480 --> 00:08:16.960 That's what I'm saying. 00:08:17.020 --> 00:08:18.240 This is glimpses of God. 00:08:18.860 --> 00:08:23.440 Because, I mean, listen, I love that you respect me and said what you just said. 00:08:23.440 --> 00:08:30.040 I am a freaking AVL guy who just happened to stumble in front of a camera during COVID. 00:08:30.320 --> 00:08:32.560 And all of a sudden, everybody's like, ooh, Jeff. 00:08:33.320 --> 00:08:36.920 And so, humbly, you know, I'm going to do the humble brag here, except this. 00:08:36.980 --> 00:08:37.500 How cool is it? 00:08:37.500 --> 00:08:37.900 How cool? 00:08:38.380 --> 00:08:39.380 No, no, but it is. 00:08:39.460 --> 00:08:40.580 How cool it is that God… 00:08:40.580 --> 00:08:43.120 I mean, you know, like, you love this stuff as much as anybody. 00:08:43.280 --> 00:08:45.240 How cool is it that God goes like, you know what? 00:08:45.480 --> 00:08:46.240 Just for grins. 00:08:46.720 --> 00:08:50.100 I'm going to let Jeff be kind of one of the leading voices, if not the leading voice in 00:08:50.100 --> 00:08:50.900 the world of this stuff. 00:08:52.120 --> 00:08:52.880 That's… 00:08:52.880 --> 00:08:53.440 That's pretty awesome. 00:08:54.000 --> 00:08:55.760 It's a lot of fun. 00:08:55.760 --> 00:08:57.640 And just to see… 00:08:57.640 --> 00:08:59.760 Honestly, just to see God move through it. 00:09:00.420 --> 00:09:03.880 Because this thing has blown away today. 00:09:04.240 --> 00:09:09.200 Like, before today, but where I sit in this chair right now, never in my wildest dreams 00:09:09.200 --> 00:09:14.740 did I imagine I would be in this chair having this conversation, do 275 podcasts, talking 00:09:14.740 --> 00:09:19.460 with Dave Ferguson, after writing a book based on Dave Ferguson's stuff, championing this 00:09:19.460 --> 00:09:21.520 idea, talking to all these corporations. 00:09:21.800 --> 00:09:26.760 And to be honest, several of these corporations I'm talking with, the reason I'm talking with 00:09:26.760 --> 00:09:31.660 them is because I wrote this book with Dr. John Harris based on Dave Ferguson's stuff. 00:09:31.660 --> 00:09:31.920 Oh, that's awesome. 00:09:32.020 --> 00:09:37.860 Like, the Sharing Jesus Online book was really the front door to a lot of this. 00:09:38.340 --> 00:09:40.160 And I know that's where we're going to go next, right? 00:09:40.200 --> 00:09:42.160 That's where we're going to go next, because that's what you said you wanted to talk about. 00:09:42.480 --> 00:09:48.060 But I do think we should have a conversation because my hunch is you're really good at the 00:09:48.060 --> 00:09:51.360 sales part of this, attracting people's attention, correcting interest. 00:09:52.140 --> 00:09:54.300 Maybe a new thing, we got to figure out a way how we can help. 00:09:54.340 --> 00:09:58.520 Because if you've got nine of these in the pipeline, I mean, who's the person who can come 00:09:58.520 --> 00:10:03.180 alongside you and actually, you know, the same way you kind of already told me, you know, 00:10:03.220 --> 00:10:06.740 you get someone else finally now to do your finances because it's like you suck at it. 00:10:07.140 --> 00:10:08.900 Who can we get to actually operate? 00:10:09.120 --> 00:10:10.400 You know, like, you're kind of the visionary. 00:10:10.540 --> 00:10:13.680 Where do we find an integrator who can actually make these things hum? 00:10:14.220 --> 00:10:14.500 Yeah. 00:10:15.140 --> 00:10:16.900 It's so funny you said the word integrator. 00:10:17.100 --> 00:10:18.560 We're actually, I know that's good. 00:10:18.620 --> 00:10:21.460 And that's exactly, that's the approach that we're using. 00:10:21.620 --> 00:10:22.720 We've read, this is so good. 00:10:22.820 --> 00:10:24.620 I mean, this has nothing to do with the podcast. 00:10:24.720 --> 00:10:28.540 We want to have, ladies and gentlemen, but this is meaningful to you. 00:10:30.000 --> 00:10:30.720 The book, I know. 00:10:30.800 --> 00:10:32.340 This is a coaching session right now. 00:10:32.460 --> 00:10:32.980 Traction. 00:10:33.300 --> 00:10:33.920 Here we go. 00:10:35.160 --> 00:10:35.420 Yeah. 00:10:35.700 --> 00:10:36.860 Have you been reading that EOS system? 00:10:36.860 --> 00:10:38.000 We read that a year ago. 00:10:38.600 --> 00:10:41.780 And so we were, DCN, we were toying with that idea. 00:10:42.400 --> 00:10:44.480 We couldn't find, honestly, we couldn't find the integrator. 00:10:45.040 --> 00:10:50.880 And so we really did not have the opportunity to explore it because we just, we didn't have 00:10:50.880 --> 00:10:53.360 the right personnel at the right time to implement that system. 00:10:54.060 --> 00:10:56.140 And Dave, I don't think I told you this story. 00:10:57.880 --> 00:11:02.960 So the, there was a guy that reached out to me right after Exponential Orlando. 00:11:03.480 --> 00:11:04.380 Now, this is funny. 00:11:04.580 --> 00:11:08.940 We're at, we're at Exponential Orlando and, and, you know, we had a bunch of gamer guys 00:11:08.940 --> 00:11:12.140 that were kind of hanging out with, with, with the Digital Church Network. 00:11:12.820 --> 00:11:15.740 And, and so we did a podcast with him. 00:11:15.800 --> 00:11:16.700 You go back and listen to it. 00:11:16.720 --> 00:11:18.360 It's in season four or something. 00:11:18.560 --> 00:11:23.360 But we, one night during Exponential, I think it was the Wednesday night. 00:11:24.080 --> 00:11:28.060 We got all the gamer guys together at, at a guy who lives in Orlando. 00:11:28.180 --> 00:11:29.140 His name's Bernie's house. 00:11:29.300 --> 00:11:30.700 Bernie, uh, Mapili. 00:11:30.860 --> 00:11:33.700 We got it together at Bernie's house and we invited over. 00:11:33.800 --> 00:11:39.900 He gets us, um, glue came over to meet with these gamer guys to talk about how we can get. 00:11:39.980 --> 00:11:41.420 He gets us in the gamer culture. 00:11:42.900 --> 00:11:45.460 So after Expo, I get a call from Bernie. 00:11:45.520 --> 00:11:47.340 I really don't know Bernie at all. 00:11:47.980 --> 00:11:52.940 Um, Bernie says to me, he says, Jeff, uh, he says, you're like, you, you and I are like 00:11:52.940 --> 00:11:53.560 the same person. 00:11:53.640 --> 00:11:57.700 You don't know me, but I'm really passionate about a digital church, gamer church. 00:11:57.700 --> 00:11:59.280 He's really, he's, he's an entrepreneur. 00:11:59.440 --> 00:12:00.420 He's created all these businesses. 00:12:00.540 --> 00:12:01.520 He's trying to do this stuff. 00:12:01.900 --> 00:12:06.360 And he said, I don't understand how you got, he gets us in my living room at 10 o'clock 00:12:06.360 --> 00:12:09.980 at night on a Wednesday night for three hours to talk about gamers. 00:12:10.460 --> 00:12:12.420 Like how you have that influence. 00:12:12.420 --> 00:12:13.680 And, and I told, I told him the same thing. 00:12:13.700 --> 00:12:16.520 I'm telling you, I'm like, Hey, I don't, I don't, I don't know how to do this. 00:12:16.520 --> 00:12:18.340 Like this, I can't, I can't brag about this. 00:12:18.360 --> 00:12:19.460 This is just a God thing. 00:12:19.920 --> 00:12:25.100 This is, you're, you're unconsciously, you're unconsciously competent, but this, this is 00:12:25.100 --> 00:12:25.540 what's funny. 00:12:25.740 --> 00:12:32.240 Bernie says to me, instead of me, instead of Bernie trying to do what he's doing, because 00:12:32.240 --> 00:12:36.220 he's been struggling to really make the impact at the church level, business level is incredible 00:12:36.220 --> 00:12:37.940 church level. 00:12:37.940 --> 00:12:39.520 He's like, it's, it's not, it's not happening. 00:12:39.860 --> 00:12:42.700 So, so Bernie says to me, I'm bragging about Bernie here. 00:12:42.960 --> 00:12:46.900 Hey, you know what, I'm, I'm going to, I'm going to, Jeff, I want to work for you for 00:12:46.900 --> 00:12:47.200 free. 00:12:48.340 --> 00:12:53.800 I essentially, he's like, I want to be your integrator for your business, for the, for 00:12:53.800 --> 00:12:56.400 the business side, for the ministry side of what you're doing. 00:12:56.840 --> 00:13:00.680 And so Bernie came on, uh, we, we onboarded digital church network. 00:13:00.780 --> 00:13:06.100 We went from four leaders to 15 leaders, like overnight over the span of like four weeks, 00:13:06.100 --> 00:13:09.560 just building these infrastructures, these systems, recruiting these leaders. 00:13:09.780 --> 00:13:15.860 And, and it's so exciting now to see people like understanding the vision of this thing. 00:13:15.860 --> 00:13:19.320 And it's like, I don't, I, Jeff don't have to tell them what to do. 00:13:19.380 --> 00:13:20.400 They are challenging. 00:13:20.600 --> 00:13:26.000 I had one of my guys, one of my, one of my, uh, four R's, one of my R directors, my, my 00:13:26.000 --> 00:13:29.400 relationship guy, he challenged me down. 00:13:29.520 --> 00:13:31.480 He shot an idea that I had down. 00:13:31.680 --> 00:13:34.320 And the funny thing was he used my exact words to do it. 00:13:35.120 --> 00:13:39.340 Like when he was done telling me no, and I heard what he said, I was like. 00:13:39.780 --> 00:13:41.200 I told you to say that. 00:13:41.320 --> 00:13:45.540 Like, I told you that I taught you that he's like, yes, I actually listened to you and you're 00:13:45.540 --> 00:13:45.860 right. 00:13:46.020 --> 00:13:47.080 So do what you say. 00:13:47.280 --> 00:13:48.940 And so it was, it was really funny. 00:13:49.040 --> 00:13:49.460 I do. 00:13:49.560 --> 00:13:50.640 I love the season. 00:13:50.780 --> 00:13:56.720 I love, um, I love where ministry is taking and, uh, the friends at new thing have been 00:13:56.720 --> 00:13:59.280 incredible and will continue to be incredible. 00:13:59.280 --> 00:14:02.680 I'm sure as our relationships grow through it. 00:14:03.320 --> 00:14:04.700 So, Hey, you know what? 00:14:04.740 --> 00:14:07.900 We are like 20 minutes into this podcast or 15 minutes into this podcast. 00:14:08.380 --> 00:14:11.600 And we actually really want to talk about the topic at hand. 00:14:12.060 --> 00:14:14.840 Uh, and so Dave, you know, Hey, I have a, I have a question though. 00:14:14.860 --> 00:14:17.280 You do this every time I have you on the show. 00:14:17.360 --> 00:14:18.500 I want to acknowledge this. 00:14:18.580 --> 00:14:21.260 I bring you on for a topic and you're like, no, no, no. 00:14:21.300 --> 00:14:22.180 Forget the topic. 00:14:22.340 --> 00:14:23.760 We're just going to go off. 00:14:23.860 --> 00:14:29.400 No, my, my question is, you know, you wrote this great book, but where's Dr. 00:14:29.460 --> 00:14:31.400 John Harris, he's supposed to be here. 00:14:31.400 --> 00:14:31.520 Yeah. 00:14:31.600 --> 00:14:32.100 So Dr. 00:14:32.220 --> 00:14:36.180 John Harris literally just entered the room right now. 00:14:36.400 --> 00:14:36.740 Dr. 00:14:36.840 --> 00:14:38.400 John, you want to say, Hey, there he is. 00:14:38.460 --> 00:14:38.880 Look at that. 00:14:39.020 --> 00:14:39.740 Hey guys. 00:14:41.920 --> 00:14:43.820 I am not sure what happened there. 00:14:47.380 --> 00:14:47.780 Dr. 00:14:48.260 --> 00:14:52.600 John, uh, we've been filling, we've been filling time waiting for the expert to get here. 00:14:52.840 --> 00:14:55.060 Oh, well then I'll, I'll wait with you. 00:14:58.960 --> 00:14:59.980 Oh, good time. 00:15:00.140 --> 00:15:03.360 So, uh, yeah, this podcast was supposed to be three and Dr. 00:15:03.440 --> 00:15:05.320 John, um, is, is jumping on. 00:15:05.400 --> 00:15:08.920 He got caught up in some other things, but we're excited to, to have him on. 00:15:09.060 --> 00:15:13.600 Uh, John, we've been, uh, uh, randomly talking. 00:15:13.780 --> 00:15:17.360 You, you'll have to go back to the, listen to this podcast to actually understand what we've 00:15:17.360 --> 00:15:18.440 been talking about in the scope. 00:15:18.520 --> 00:15:22.340 We've been kind of all over the map, just, um, maybe intentionally stalling for you to 00:15:22.340 --> 00:15:26.460 have this conference first, have this conversation together centered around, um, blessed 00:15:26.460 --> 00:15:28.880 practices, how to bless the church, sharing Jesus online. 00:15:28.960 --> 00:15:34.960 Digital and, and, and really, you know, John, we, we launched the book back in, uh, January, 00:15:35.220 --> 00:15:38.120 January, January, January, four months ago. 00:15:38.560 --> 00:15:42.120 And, uh, you know, it's gotten a lot of attention online. 00:15:42.120 --> 00:15:46.040 We've seen, we've seen, we've seen a lot of success with it, uh, a lot of exposure with 00:15:46.040 --> 00:15:50.820 other organizations, a lot of questions now being asked about digital missionaries in, 00:15:50.820 --> 00:15:52.960 in places that I know it wasn't talked about before. 00:15:52.960 --> 00:15:57.720 And so, um, you know, I wanted to bring us together, the three of us, cause you know, 00:15:57.780 --> 00:15:58.660 uh, Dr. 00:15:58.720 --> 00:16:00.500 John, we didn't, we didn't have Dave. 00:16:00.560 --> 00:16:03.860 I don't, when we did develop the marketing plan for the book, it never occurred to either 00:16:03.860 --> 00:16:05.660 of us to like have a conversation with Dave Ferguson. 00:16:05.660 --> 00:16:11.440 I just, we probably, probably should have had a conversation with Dave Ferguson and say, 00:16:11.560 --> 00:16:12.600 why don't you do a podcast with us? 00:16:12.600 --> 00:16:13.400 Like when the book launches? 00:16:13.480 --> 00:16:14.260 No, that didn't make sense. 00:16:14.300 --> 00:16:17.980 So we'll do it after the fact and, and, and, and enjoy the, the greatness of, of that. 00:16:18.120 --> 00:16:23.180 So, uh, so Hey, both of you, thanks for jumping on, on this podcast and, and, and joining in. 00:16:23.180 --> 00:16:26.460 So Dave, uh, I'd love to just, you know, dig in with you a little bit. 00:16:26.520 --> 00:16:29.920 We're going to spitball back and forth between the two of you guys, but, uh, where did the, 00:16:29.980 --> 00:16:34.300 where'd the concept of, of bless it may be even a summarization, a little bit of bless, 00:16:34.380 --> 00:16:35.540 but where'd this concept come from? 00:16:37.400 --> 00:16:39.760 Uh, I think it's some ways it goes way back. 00:16:39.860 --> 00:16:46.780 It kind of came from some of my own frustration with trying to share, uh, the good news, share 00:16:46.780 --> 00:16:52.300 the love of God and Jesus with the people that I love, my neighbors, uh, whether it's the 00:16:52.300 --> 00:16:55.280 neighbors right next door, where you live, you know, where you work, where you play. 00:16:55.640 --> 00:17:01.040 I literally, like, I remember when I, like, as a, as a, as a young leader, actually, even 00:17:01.040 --> 00:17:06.700 as he, even when we were first planting the church or no, before that, I'd say, I, I was 00:17:06.700 --> 00:17:10.860 one of those guys who was super on fire. 00:17:10.860 --> 00:17:14.880 And I mean, I would do like, I would do like street evangelism. 00:17:15.120 --> 00:17:22.240 I would do, um, things that, um, uh, where I'm going door to door. 00:17:22.720 --> 00:17:28.620 Uh, basically I was just harassing people and answering questions, uh, that they weren't 00:17:28.620 --> 00:17:32.580 asking and was being, you know, just obnoxious. 00:17:33.080 --> 00:17:37.440 And, um, and I found, you know, I found out that that didn't work. 00:17:38.060 --> 00:17:41.020 And so I kind of swung the other way and I said, you know what, here's what I'm going 00:17:41.020 --> 00:17:41.180 to do. 00:17:41.200 --> 00:17:46.660 I'm just going to live my life like Jesus and see if, you know, that makes an impact. 00:17:47.380 --> 00:17:52.460 And so didn't use any words and kind of just, uh, tried to do the right thing. 00:17:52.560 --> 00:17:55.520 And my neighbors thought I was a good guy. 00:17:55.740 --> 00:17:57.580 My neighbors, I think liked being my neighbor. 00:17:57.580 --> 00:18:01.740 They liked having me as a neighbor, but it also didn't result in me getting to share, uh, 00:18:01.740 --> 00:18:02.720 Jesus with them. 00:18:03.380 --> 00:18:06.120 And so it was really a result of that frustration. 00:18:06.120 --> 00:18:09.880 And by that point I'd already planted a church and I was going, okay, there's got to be a 00:18:09.880 --> 00:18:12.680 better way both for me and for the people in my church. 00:18:13.260 --> 00:18:16.600 And there were, there were a couple of different things that happened along the way that really 00:18:16.600 --> 00:18:18.560 kind of pointed us towards these blessed practices. 00:18:18.560 --> 00:18:24.140 But essentially at the very beginning, it came out of my own frustration of like, you know, 00:18:24.500 --> 00:18:29.320 trying to kind of shoot people with my gospel gun or just passively do nothing. 00:18:29.320 --> 00:18:30.620 And neither one of those worked. 00:18:31.740 --> 00:18:37.840 Uh, and so blessed practices, uh, begin with prayer, uh, listen, uh, now the, in the physical 00:18:37.840 --> 00:18:42.940 book there, the book that, that, uh, Dave and his brother, John wrote, uh, it's, um, eat 00:18:42.940 --> 00:18:47.000 together, the physical expression of, of eating to build a relationship. 00:18:47.000 --> 00:18:48.560 And then it's then serve. 00:18:48.840 --> 00:18:52.400 And then it's share, uh, share Jesus, share your Jesus story. 00:18:52.480 --> 00:18:55.440 That's, that's the acronym of, of blessing. 00:18:55.660 --> 00:18:58.700 And, and, and, and Dave, your book published on this. 00:18:58.780 --> 00:19:02.360 I know, I think you were doing it before the book published, but the book published in what? 00:19:02.600 --> 00:19:04.160 21, 20, 2020. 00:19:04.880 --> 00:19:05.280 Yeah. 00:19:05.320 --> 00:19:05.680 21. 00:19:05.820 --> 00:19:05.940 Yeah. 00:19:06.000 --> 00:19:10.440 We, now we probably, I mean, and we went through a couple of different iterations that didn't 00:19:10.440 --> 00:19:12.760 work, um, around that. 00:19:12.920 --> 00:19:17.020 Um, but then we, we probably were, we'd probably been doing this at community and then other 00:19:17.020 --> 00:19:20.540 places for, uh, eight years before we ever published the book. 00:19:20.540 --> 00:19:24.340 So it's, it's not like something that was kind of like a theory and go like, Hey, let's get, 00:19:24.420 --> 00:19:25.960 let's just write it up and see if it works. 00:19:25.960 --> 00:19:29.980 So then we began to see it work and really in real people's lives. 00:19:30.780 --> 00:19:34.140 And, uh, so we, we probably did it eight years before we published the book in 2021. 00:19:34.860 --> 00:19:35.000 All right. 00:19:35.000 --> 00:19:37.900 So I got to ask this cause I had no idea there were iterations. 00:19:38.260 --> 00:19:38.380 Yeah. 00:19:38.440 --> 00:19:39.700 What was the biggest screw up? 00:19:39.760 --> 00:19:42.560 What was the biggest, oh crap, that's not going to work. 00:19:42.960 --> 00:19:45.060 Um, what was the biggest lesson in the iterations? 00:19:46.280 --> 00:19:49.920 Oh, we had, I mean, they, they weren't really that interesting, but we did like, I remember 00:19:49.920 --> 00:19:55.440 before that we were, we, we brought our whole staff team together, including the spouses. 00:19:55.440 --> 00:19:57.100 Cause we wanted to kind of start with them. 00:19:57.180 --> 00:19:58.980 We felt like we were going to change the culture, start with them. 00:19:59.320 --> 00:20:03.900 And we had like two or three questions we wanted you to ask every week. 00:20:04.500 --> 00:20:10.740 And they were interesting, but they, they didn't, they weren't as sticky, um, as this. 00:20:11.000 --> 00:20:16.680 And it was pretty quickly when we kind of started using the blessed stuff, the blessed practices. 00:20:17.220 --> 00:20:21.320 And then we started with the staff that we began to unfold into other key leaders and influence 00:20:21.320 --> 00:20:21.820 our church. 00:20:21.820 --> 00:20:25.120 And then eventually this is kind of, we even talk about how to change the culture. 00:20:25.440 --> 00:20:29.580 Uh, eventually then the whole church, um, it really got traction. 00:20:30.000 --> 00:20:34.080 And so, but there were, yeah, there were a couple of them that were, nope, that's not 00:20:34.080 --> 00:20:34.360 going to work. 00:20:34.420 --> 00:20:35.040 Let's start over again. 00:20:35.040 --> 00:20:35.140 Yeah. 00:20:35.240 --> 00:20:40.640 And then that leads us up to, you know, arguably one of the greatest moments of my 45 year old 00:20:40.640 --> 00:20:47.240 life, uh, when, uh, 2022 Dave Ferguson walks up to me and says, Hey Jeff, you know what? 00:20:47.260 --> 00:20:48.460 You should write a book. 00:20:49.060 --> 00:20:56.300 Uh, and, um, uh, we had the opportunity, uh, to write, uh, uh, sharing Jesus online, uh, which 00:20:56.300 --> 00:21:01.780 is a, it was a book that was based off of blessed practices based off of Dave's framework, uh, Dave 00:21:01.780 --> 00:21:03.880 and John's framework and, and poured it over. 00:21:04.100 --> 00:21:10.480 And I, at the time, uh, did not think I had the capacity to write the book on my own. 00:21:10.520 --> 00:21:13.600 I was in the middle of writing another book, uh, on virtual reality churches. 00:21:13.600 --> 00:21:15.420 And I was like, Hey, you know what we should do? 00:21:15.480 --> 00:21:18.240 We should totally bring in a coauthor into the situation. 00:21:18.240 --> 00:21:24.700 And that's where Dr. John Harris, who is having internet issues, uh, came into the conversation. 00:21:25.220 --> 00:21:26.220 I'm like, stop. 00:21:26.480 --> 00:21:28.120 Now that's, now that is ironic. 00:21:28.320 --> 00:21:30.620 This is the biggest trade record of a podcast. 00:21:30.960 --> 00:21:34.920 I'm literally, I'm watching John, like, come on the screen and come off and come on and 00:21:34.920 --> 00:21:35.380 come off. 00:21:35.500 --> 00:21:40.080 And, and, uh, and so the question I was about to ask is Dr. John, talk about the book. 00:21:40.100 --> 00:21:42.200 And so let me, I got, I got to bring him back in. 00:21:42.360 --> 00:21:43.920 Hopefully we're going to get him in the next five seconds. 00:21:43.920 --> 00:21:47.020 If not, I'm going to answer John's question for him. 00:21:47.020 --> 00:21:52.660 John, Dr. John Harris, lead pastor of Hearts Like His, a, uh, Facebook, primarily Facebook 00:21:52.660 --> 00:21:56.300 church, uh, that's online currently a discipleship movement. 00:21:56.460 --> 00:22:01.780 Maybe some would call it that, but Hey, John, talk to us a little bit, um, you know, about 00:22:01.780 --> 00:22:06.280 the book, maybe the process for you for, for writing it, some of the experiences, um, what, 00:22:06.440 --> 00:22:11.680 how we ported bless into how we adopted bless into digital, uh, space. 00:22:11.680 --> 00:22:13.800 Like what was, what was that process like for you? 00:22:14.880 --> 00:22:15.320 Yeah. 00:22:15.460 --> 00:22:21.660 I, I think when, uh, I had seen, uh, Dave and John's book a few years ago and even when 00:22:21.660 --> 00:22:26.560 I saw it then I thought like, this is, this is the kind of thing that, um, that Christians 00:22:26.560 --> 00:22:31.420 are looking for a, a practical how to like, what do I do? 00:22:31.600 --> 00:22:37.000 I don't need to hear more sermons about why it's necessary to, to, to, to share Jesus. 00:22:37.200 --> 00:22:38.960 I know that we should do that. 00:22:39.460 --> 00:22:40.780 No one's telling me how. 00:22:40.880 --> 00:22:45.140 And so when I saw that book, I thought it's very simple, practical, memorable, all of that. 00:22:45.420 --> 00:22:50.760 And so, um, so that was just kind of like in the, in, in the background mind, uh, for a 00:22:50.760 --> 00:22:54.120 while, as I thought, you know, that's a great in-person kind of, kind of deal. 00:22:54.320 --> 00:22:58.800 And there are some elements of that, that even in my own neighborhood, cause I moved, uh, my 00:22:58.800 --> 00:23:03.700 family moved here in 2019 that I was implementing here, just, just locally. 00:23:03.700 --> 00:23:10.760 Uh, like for me, um, I used to be the guy that's like, I will live across the street 00:23:10.760 --> 00:23:11.140 from you. 00:23:11.180 --> 00:23:14.060 And if we see each other checking the mail, I'll wave. 00:23:14.220 --> 00:23:16.120 And that's pretty much it, you know? 00:23:16.280 --> 00:23:21.840 Um, and so when I moved here, there are principles about bless that I had in mind that helped me 00:23:21.840 --> 00:23:23.560 to go, let me start connecting. 00:23:23.560 --> 00:23:28.560 Let me start being more intentional with, with, with conversations beyond, Hey, how are 00:23:28.560 --> 00:23:28.980 you? 00:23:29.340 --> 00:23:32.380 Uh, so like now I know all my neighbors names. 00:23:32.380 --> 00:23:33.780 I know their kids' names. 00:23:33.940 --> 00:23:38.540 I know their school, what they go to with one of them is my babysitter across the street, 00:23:38.900 --> 00:23:39.860 really cool relationships. 00:23:40.140 --> 00:23:47.380 And so when we started Hearts Like His in January of 2021, uh, being online and it first 00:23:47.380 --> 00:23:50.840 started off with us trying to target those who had left the church and things like that, 00:23:50.840 --> 00:23:57.440 really not shooting for, um, the unsaved necessarily, but trying to, um, uh, trying to 00:23:57.440 --> 00:24:02.360 turn around the trend of the rise of the duns and trying to be a part of the return of 00:24:02.360 --> 00:24:02.880 the duns. 00:24:03.360 --> 00:24:07.000 So you have these two groups of people that are really looking to be empowered. 00:24:07.000 --> 00:24:08.840 Those who left the church, but still love Jesus. 00:24:08.840 --> 00:24:11.140 And those who are still regularly attending the church. 00:24:11.640 --> 00:24:16.080 And so during COVID, it was a cool opportunity because everyone was all online, right? 00:24:16.920 --> 00:24:19.100 Everyone has left the church, so to speak. 00:24:19.700 --> 00:24:26.760 So in the midst of this pandemic, how can we equip people to take advantage of the evangelistic 00:24:26.760 --> 00:24:28.620 opportunities that are also online? 00:24:28.720 --> 00:24:30.680 It's not just Christians, but everyone else is looking. 00:24:30.880 --> 00:24:37.180 So we were looking at this book and, uh, just the idea to, to, um, to put a tool like 00:24:37.180 --> 00:24:41.980 this in Christians' hands so they can do evangelism online. 00:24:42.660 --> 00:24:48.600 Um, I just was like, yes, and thank you for the opportunity to be a part of, of, of doing 00:24:48.600 --> 00:24:48.860 that. 00:24:48.860 --> 00:24:52.500 So, um, so yeah, so that was kind of some of my rationale. 00:24:52.500 --> 00:24:59.300 And then you, you couple that with all of the, um, uh, the, the research, the reports, the 00:24:59.300 --> 00:25:04.560 statistics about what people are doing online, looking for answers online, all those kinds 00:25:04.560 --> 00:25:09.820 of things with the rise of digital evangelism on all these different platforms that we're 00:25:09.820 --> 00:25:13.720 able to kind of bring together and share in the earlier parts, even throughout, throughout 00:25:13.720 --> 00:25:14.180 the book. 00:25:14.280 --> 00:25:16.540 Like, this is, this is a game changer. 00:25:16.540 --> 00:25:18.040 And so we can answer that question. 00:25:18.120 --> 00:25:18.860 What should you do? 00:25:19.500 --> 00:25:25.100 Especially when you're spending a lot of time online and you're seeing comments come across 00:25:25.100 --> 00:25:25.540 your feed. 00:25:25.540 --> 00:25:27.940 You're seeing people reach out for help, but you're not a pastor. 00:25:28.240 --> 00:25:31.560 You're using, you're seeing people ask questions, but you might not know the answer. 00:25:31.720 --> 00:25:35.140 So letting all these opportunities every day pass you by. 00:25:35.260 --> 00:25:40.160 And so I was like, man, if we can partner together and create something to answer that 00:25:40.160 --> 00:25:43.200 same question, what can you do online? 00:25:43.460 --> 00:25:44.400 That'll be huge. 00:25:44.620 --> 00:25:45.180 That'll be huge. 00:25:45.540 --> 00:25:45.880 Totally. 00:25:46.300 --> 00:25:46.500 Yeah. 00:25:46.580 --> 00:25:49.260 And so the book is available for download for free. 00:25:49.520 --> 00:25:54.280 Thank you to exponential, but it's at sharingjesusonline.com. 00:25:54.280 --> 00:25:57.600 And so that, that is a, is a PDF that you can download. 00:25:57.600 --> 00:26:01.180 It's a book you can buy, uh, through, uh, Amazon. 00:26:01.540 --> 00:26:05.040 Uh, I'm happy to say my mom was the first to buy the book. 00:26:05.580 --> 00:26:09.460 Um, my mom, uh, was, uh, not the only person to buy the book. 00:26:09.460 --> 00:26:13.560 Like we've, we've, we've had some, some moderate success and downloads, you know, last I checked, 00:26:13.600 --> 00:26:15.860 it was well over a thousand, uh, downloads on that. 00:26:15.880 --> 00:26:16.720 So I was, I was kind of excited. 00:26:16.800 --> 00:26:19.780 A thousand people are walking around with, with, with the resource, right? 00:26:19.820 --> 00:26:21.180 It's a big step in the right direction. 00:26:21.540 --> 00:26:24.340 So definitely excited about where we're going with some of this. 00:26:24.340 --> 00:26:28.000 And so you can check out the book sharing Jesus online for, for that. 00:26:28.000 --> 00:26:32.800 Now, um, Dave, and if you listen to the first 15, 20 minutes of the podcast, you know, 00:26:32.840 --> 00:26:36.600 you've always been a huge supporter of, of, of me. 00:26:36.740 --> 00:26:37.180 Thank you. 00:26:37.240 --> 00:26:42.460 Of, of, but of digital and of, of recognizing, you know, a lot of people don't recognize the 00:26:42.460 --> 00:26:48.240 relational context of, of digital, but you've always been a proponent of, of that in, in, 00:26:48.300 --> 00:26:52.440 in supporting of that, or at least in my context of you where I'm curious. 00:26:52.440 --> 00:26:54.720 So where, where did this like come from? 00:26:54.780 --> 00:26:57.280 What, why are you such a fan of digital? 00:26:57.280 --> 00:27:01.640 You don't often find a lot of lead pastors in your position, taking the stance that you 00:27:01.640 --> 00:27:01.920 are. 00:27:02.020 --> 00:27:04.000 What, what, what makes you the, the unicorn here? 00:27:04.600 --> 00:27:05.900 Uh, I don't know. 00:27:06.080 --> 00:27:11.500 Um, I think maybe in some ways I'm, I mean, yeah, I, I, I am a lead pastor, but I'm, I 00:27:11.500 --> 00:27:16.940 probably think more like an entrepreneur and I, even on strength finders, I'm, I have, I'm 00:27:16.940 --> 00:27:19.780 high on the futuristic and it just seems obvious to me. 00:27:19.780 --> 00:27:25.520 It's just obvious to me that, um, for the church to move forward, I mean, and I'm, this 00:27:25.520 --> 00:27:30.400 is what I've been telling people both through new thing and exponential is, I mean, yeah, 00:27:30.440 --> 00:27:32.580 there's still going to continue to be macro expressions. 00:27:33.020 --> 00:27:37.600 And I think there's a whole bunch, uh, you know, like our friend, Rob Wagner and other 00:27:37.600 --> 00:27:40.640 people, there's gonna be a whole bunch of micro expressions, but the other part that 00:27:40.640 --> 00:27:42.860 we got to take into consideration is also meta expressions. 00:27:43.000 --> 00:27:45.800 And so we're going to, we're going to have all three is, and I think we need to think 00:27:45.800 --> 00:27:49.120 in terms of multiple expressions of church to reach all the people. 00:27:49.120 --> 00:27:53.420 And I mean, it's, it's the worldwide web for Pete's sake. 00:27:53.760 --> 00:27:53.960 Okay. 00:27:54.500 --> 00:27:56.860 So it just, it, to me, it seems obvious. 00:27:57.500 --> 00:28:01.900 Um, you know, I mean, people are, I mean, people are building deep enough connections 00:28:01.900 --> 00:28:03.720 that they're meeting each other and getting married. 00:28:03.820 --> 00:28:06.780 Most folks now that's how they meet people and that's how they start dating online. 00:28:06.860 --> 00:28:11.780 So, I mean, it's like, yes, you can build relationships online and, and yes, you can build 00:28:11.780 --> 00:28:12.740 disciples online. 00:28:13.100 --> 00:28:20.060 So I, I, I do think as church leaders, um, we either, we need to both get on board. 00:28:20.060 --> 00:28:25.000 And if we're not doing ourselves the same way, you may not champion like a church plant 00:28:25.000 --> 00:28:25.960 to a certain context. 00:28:25.960 --> 00:28:28.340 Cause you're going like, well, I don't, I really don't know anything about rural. 00:28:28.340 --> 00:28:30.440 I don't really feel comfortable in the city. 00:28:30.500 --> 00:28:31.540 I'm more of a suburban guy. 00:28:31.640 --> 00:28:32.300 Well, great. 00:28:32.360 --> 00:28:32.960 That's fine. 00:28:33.160 --> 00:28:36.300 But at least give your people permission and encourage them to do it and go there. 00:28:36.760 --> 00:28:38.280 And I think that same thing's true with the meta. 00:28:38.860 --> 00:28:42.820 So, you know, a lot of, I mean, obviously there's a lot of pastors that, that don't 00:28:42.820 --> 00:28:44.620 have the vision that you have in this space. 00:28:45.260 --> 00:28:49.320 Um, one of the things that I love about community Christian is you've run, and I would love, 00:28:49.400 --> 00:28:52.860 what is actually the term, you know, Stadia used to call it multimodal where you, there 00:28:52.860 --> 00:28:55.420 were multiple models of church that were operating. 00:28:55.900 --> 00:28:58.760 Uh, you know, and so what, what, what does community call that? 00:28:58.760 --> 00:29:03.000 Like, cause you've, you've got the physical church, you're doing some things online, you're 00:29:03.000 --> 00:29:07.840 doing, uh, micro church models, prison, like what, what, what's the term for the multiple 00:29:07.840 --> 00:29:08.920 streams kind of with that? 00:29:10.240 --> 00:29:14.500 Yeah, we, we actually talked about like before COVID, we would say we're one church with multiple 00:29:14.500 --> 00:29:15.120 locations. 00:29:15.540 --> 00:29:20.540 Now you'd hear us consistently say we're one church with multiple expressions, and so those, 00:29:20.780 --> 00:29:23.220 those, yeah, expressions, those four right now are exactly what you said. 00:29:23.280 --> 00:29:24.500 I mean, there's the digital expression. 00:29:24.500 --> 00:29:27.620 There's also the physical expression, which is in our locations. 00:29:27.900 --> 00:29:33.000 There's also in prison facilities through community freedom, and then also our micro expressions. 00:29:33.000 --> 00:29:34.820 And that's been really taken off. 00:29:34.900 --> 00:29:40.620 You know, so after I'm, I'm calling us in a post COVID society, hopefully that's understood. 00:29:41.160 --> 00:29:46.140 Uh, but you know, in this season, a lot of churches are focusing on what worked in the 00:29:46.140 --> 00:29:46.580 past. 00:29:46.580 --> 00:29:50.560 Uh, they, they want to simplify down to, to one expression. 00:29:51.120 --> 00:29:56.260 Um, but you're seeing, I'm, I'm hoping, and I'd love to hear about what success you're seeing 00:29:56.260 --> 00:30:00.820 multiple, uh, and, and starting to have multiple expressions like you're, you're, you're doing 00:30:00.820 --> 00:30:01.180 now. 00:30:01.680 --> 00:30:03.880 What would you tell a pastor? 00:30:04.020 --> 00:30:09.660 Like, how would you coach a pastor who's, who's trying to go back and simplify towards, uh, only one expression? 00:30:10.440 --> 00:30:12.020 Well, I mean, I, I think you're leaving. 00:30:12.080 --> 00:30:17.380 I think you're, I think you're missing a lot of opportunity, a lot of opportunity in the, in the 00:30:17.380 --> 00:30:20.360 language we use of community Christian church to help people find their way back to God. 00:30:21.040 --> 00:30:29.080 Um, I mean, like for, I, I think I, I, I, I bet every new person that showed up at a physical 00:30:29.080 --> 00:30:35.500 location of community Christian church, I mean, a hundred percent have first experienced us 00:30:35.500 --> 00:30:35.860 digitally. 00:30:36.120 --> 00:30:39.160 They come and check out our website, they watch us online. 00:30:39.180 --> 00:30:43.680 And so at the very least, I mean, it's, if you think in terms of just marketing, it's, it's, 00:30:43.680 --> 00:30:47.580 it's top of the funnel for, for reaching people at the very least. 00:30:48.320 --> 00:30:52.200 Now, having said that though, we have some, and I tell people this, I mean, for some people 00:30:52.200 --> 00:30:57.840 like community online, community.tv, I mean, for some of them, it actually is their home. 00:30:57.840 --> 00:31:01.540 And for those people where that's your home, we tell them, we want you to have three connections. 00:31:01.540 --> 00:31:04.460 It's not good enough just to sit there and watch, watch the video. 00:31:04.460 --> 00:31:04.780 Okay. 00:31:04.780 --> 00:31:06.040 Every week and worship with that. 00:31:06.100 --> 00:31:08.300 No, we also want you to let your connection with God. 00:31:08.380 --> 00:31:12.020 We also want you to be connected in a small group and that could be digital, but we also 00:31:12.020 --> 00:31:12.640 want you serving. 00:31:12.640 --> 00:31:14.980 And you guys are going to describe in some of the ways you can serve online. 00:31:14.980 --> 00:31:17.600 So we want you to be involved in all three, all three expressions. 00:31:17.600 --> 00:31:20.700 If you're going to be a disciple, but we do think that can happen that way. 00:31:21.220 --> 00:31:26.480 Um, but the other thing that's pretty, that's also, and it's a little off topic a little 00:31:26.480 --> 00:31:32.140 bit, but what we've done with the micro expressions, which does integrate really with the digital 00:31:32.140 --> 00:31:34.180 is really exciting. 00:31:34.180 --> 00:31:40.080 I mean, right now, I think in the last 19 or 20 months, we've been able to start 31 micro 00:31:40.080 --> 00:31:40.500 churches. 00:31:41.060 --> 00:31:46.520 Some of them are local, like in Chicago, some are local in Chicago, some are across the country, 00:31:46.520 --> 00:31:54.040 but others are in places like India and Uganda, because those folks will participate in our 00:31:54.040 --> 00:31:54.760 community online. 00:31:54.760 --> 00:31:59.060 We advertise our micro church training and they say, Hey, can we be a part of it? 00:31:59.360 --> 00:32:00.560 And we say, absolutely. 00:32:00.760 --> 00:32:03.740 And so they get the training and then they also, they say, Hey, we would like to start 00:32:03.740 --> 00:32:04.920 a community micro church. 00:32:05.380 --> 00:32:08.160 And then what we do is we give them ongoing coaching after that. 00:32:08.440 --> 00:32:15.940 And I'm telling our staff too, cause I think last count, there's about 900 folks weekly that 00:32:15.940 --> 00:32:18.240 are part of our micro expressions, micro churches. 00:32:18.820 --> 00:32:23.380 And what I'm telling them, I'm going like, listen, this, this I'm telling our staff that this would, 00:32:23.600 --> 00:32:26.860 this is like our third largest physical location. 00:32:27.340 --> 00:32:28.380 And there's a good chance. 00:32:28.640 --> 00:32:30.240 Well, seriously, you got 900 folks. 00:32:30.240 --> 00:32:30.520 Right. 00:32:30.520 --> 00:32:34.940 And I said, and you know, and you know, a year from now or two years from now, it'll probably 00:32:34.940 --> 00:32:36.180 be our largest expression. 00:32:36.420 --> 00:32:38.360 So don't keep putting it off the side. 00:32:38.360 --> 00:32:40.020 Like, Oh, that's a cute thing we do. 00:32:40.080 --> 00:32:43.560 And by the way, I mean, how much money does it cost us? 00:32:43.640 --> 00:32:50.180 I mean, we got one staff person who's also a location pastor who, Rodrigo Cano, who's 00:32:50.180 --> 00:32:52.420 brilliant at this, who does the training and a lot of the coaching. 00:32:53.000 --> 00:32:57.540 And then we give him, I mean, I think maybe, I don't know, I think maybe he spent $20,000. 00:32:58.600 --> 00:33:04.520 I compare that to like what it talks, you typically cost to launch a location or a church with a 00:33:04.520 --> 00:33:07.680 macro, you know, I mean, you're spending a half million dollars and all that kind of stuff. 00:33:08.340 --> 00:33:10.060 So I'm, yeah. 00:33:10.340 --> 00:33:14.540 So, but it's kind of cool because it is a micro or micro churches, but we're actually 00:33:14.540 --> 00:33:16.160 doing the training, you know, digitally. 00:33:16.160 --> 00:33:20.120 And that's, and it's using that platform that's making it happen, which is pretty cool. 00:33:20.800 --> 00:33:24.720 John, as you're hearing this, you know, I know obviously digital plays, plays a big 00:33:24.720 --> 00:33:25.820 part with what you're doing. 00:33:26.460 --> 00:33:32.240 What, what advice, what counsel, what, what coaching would you offer to, to a pastor who 00:33:32.240 --> 00:33:35.060 is struggling with, with digital and really embracing in that? 00:33:35.700 --> 00:33:41.400 I think I would, I would begin with asking some questions, like what is it, I mean, typically 00:33:41.400 --> 00:33:46.360 when a leader, whether in the church, outside the church, is really struggling with some 00:33:46.360 --> 00:33:49.800 kind of new idea or innovation or, you know, opportunity, there's a fear there. 00:33:50.180 --> 00:33:54.060 So I think helping an individual identify, like what, what are you most concerned about? 00:33:54.520 --> 00:33:56.380 What are you, what are you afraid could go wrong? 00:33:56.780 --> 00:33:57.940 What are you afraid of losing? 00:33:58.940 --> 00:34:02.020 What are you, you know, and then kind of explore that. 00:34:02.440 --> 00:34:07.140 And once we get there, then look at how these opportunities, I mean, to kind of reframe what 00:34:07.140 --> 00:34:08.100 these opportunities look like. 00:34:08.480 --> 00:34:15.000 And so if we actually put the mission first and we think about opportunities for in-person 00:34:15.000 --> 00:34:23.320 church multiplication and micro church multiplication, and then, and the potential for lives to be 00:34:23.320 --> 00:34:29.200 changed that way, and then talk about the opportunity for that to be exponentially, pun intended, 00:34:29.680 --> 00:34:32.140 multiplied online. 00:34:32.700 --> 00:34:38.180 I mean, think about once people wrap their minds around digital micro churches, I mean, 00:34:38.660 --> 00:34:46.540 you can just imagine what can happen online with digital micro churches once people, especially 00:34:46.540 --> 00:34:52.600 in the pews, you know, so to speak, understand that one is biblically valid and legitimate. 00:34:53.160 --> 00:34:54.360 Like this is kingdom work. 00:34:54.700 --> 00:34:56.760 And then number two, they can do it. 00:34:57.180 --> 00:34:59.320 Number three, it doesn't have to look like Sunday morning. 00:34:59.800 --> 00:35:00.980 It can be four or five people. 00:35:01.080 --> 00:35:03.340 It can be all around the world at any time. 00:35:03.960 --> 00:35:11.780 I mean, the opportunities for digital evangelism and discipleship are massive if we actually put 00:35:11.780 --> 00:35:13.200 mission first. 00:35:13.200 --> 00:35:19.020 And so when talking to pastors who might stumble over little pieces of it, I want to know what 00:35:19.020 --> 00:35:23.900 part of it are you stumbling over and how does your ecclesiology need to shift? 00:35:24.300 --> 00:35:25.920 And how does your missiology need to shift? 00:35:26.020 --> 00:35:28.260 I mean, that's where the conversation really is. 00:35:28.800 --> 00:35:37.920 And once people go, okay, you know, go and make disciples in all the world, okay, it's really 00:35:37.920 --> 00:35:41.200 easy to have a conversation about the opportunities online. 00:35:41.200 --> 00:35:46.040 Once we deal with whatever hurdles or obstacles that are mentally, maybe even theologically 00:35:46.040 --> 00:35:47.880 with, uh, with doing it online. 00:35:48.700 --> 00:35:50.240 I'll tell you what, I want to jump in there. 00:35:50.340 --> 00:35:51.380 I think you made a good point, John. 00:35:51.420 --> 00:35:56.420 I think one of the things that does get in the way of a lot of pastors is their ecclesiology. 00:35:56.960 --> 00:36:02.160 And, you know, so that's kind of a $10 word for what, how you, what you think makes up 00:36:02.160 --> 00:36:02.600 a church. 00:36:03.280 --> 00:36:06.900 And I think one of the, maybe one of the things that's made it simple or for us a community 00:36:06.900 --> 00:36:09.860 is we would define church this way. 00:36:10.500 --> 00:36:15.360 A community of people on mission together where Jesus is King. 00:36:16.420 --> 00:36:21.940 If you've got those three parts, a community of people on mission together, like you said, 00:36:22.000 --> 00:36:24.060 missions first where Jesus is King. 00:36:24.120 --> 00:36:24.280 Okay. 00:36:24.280 --> 00:36:24.860 No, he's Lord. 00:36:24.920 --> 00:36:26.260 So he gets to decide what happens here. 00:36:26.580 --> 00:36:28.320 If you've got those three parts, you've got a church. 00:36:29.080 --> 00:36:33.960 And so that's why for me, it's a real, it's, it's not a, it's not a, it's not a long leap 00:36:33.960 --> 00:36:36.000 to go like, yeah, you could do this on Facebook. 00:36:36.560 --> 00:36:40.640 You know, you could, you could, you could, you could do this, you know, online, you could 00:36:40.640 --> 00:36:43.240 on discord or wherever platform you decide to use. 00:36:45.560 --> 00:36:51.540 And to, to, uh, to add to that, I think the idea there is typically when a pastor is stumbling 00:36:51.540 --> 00:36:55.460 over a digital church, they have a more complex view of what the church is. 00:36:55.720 --> 00:37:00.500 Once you simplify it, then it's really easy to see the opportunities to have that expression 00:37:00.500 --> 00:37:01.480 on online. 00:37:01.840 --> 00:37:02.240 Number one. 00:37:02.300 --> 00:37:08.220 And then number two, when we begin to share life change stories about what's happening 00:37:08.220 --> 00:37:14.460 online, then that also took, that also is another way to help pastors think mission first and 00:37:14.460 --> 00:37:20.240 go, man, okay, if a person's life is being changed, like God did something, there's a clear 00:37:20.240 --> 00:37:26.300 moving from A to B, I was blind and now I see, and I'm connected to a community that's helped 00:37:26.300 --> 00:37:27.000 me grow in faith. 00:37:27.000 --> 00:37:32.280 Like what pastor, what pastor, you know, argues with that. 00:37:32.300 --> 00:37:34.280 And goes, ah, I don't see God in it. 00:37:34.380 --> 00:37:39.820 I don't know what, you know, so, so I think simplifying the ecclesiology, I think sharing 00:37:39.820 --> 00:37:47.160 life change stories of, of salvation, of discipleship, of people being free from stuff. 00:37:47.740 --> 00:37:52.220 Those are the two main things I would, I would do once we talk about what is that, what is 00:37:52.220 --> 00:37:52.660 your fear? 00:37:52.780 --> 00:37:55.880 So those are things I would say to Kevin, and I've seen it happen. 00:37:56.000 --> 00:37:56.940 I've seen a pastor ship. 00:37:57.020 --> 00:38:01.140 I was talking to a group of pastors and church consultants on one occasion, and as I was sharing 00:38:01.140 --> 00:38:06.780 words with it going on, they, they, they also began to see the opportunities here for, for 00:38:06.780 --> 00:38:07.640 what God's doing online. 00:38:08.000 --> 00:38:13.720 You know, I, it's, um, I've heard, I've heard Ed love, uh, Dave, what, what denomination 00:38:13.720 --> 00:38:14.540 is Ed love with? 00:38:14.720 --> 00:38:16.260 I'm, I'm just blanking right now. 00:38:16.360 --> 00:38:16.680 Do you know? 00:38:16.920 --> 00:38:17.560 Do I have to stop your head? 00:38:18.140 --> 00:38:18.500 Um. 00:38:18.900 --> 00:38:20.020 Of course I'd call you on it. 00:38:20.040 --> 00:38:20.340 You don't. 00:38:20.400 --> 00:38:20.800 I'm sorry. 00:38:21.360 --> 00:38:21.760 Um. 00:38:21.960 --> 00:38:22.220 No. 00:38:22.700 --> 00:38:23.280 That's all right. 00:38:23.340 --> 00:38:24.560 I, but I've heard him talk. 00:38:24.620 --> 00:38:25.680 I did a podcast with him. 00:38:25.760 --> 00:38:26.180 Guess what? 00:38:26.600 --> 00:38:27.160 Guess what? 00:38:27.220 --> 00:38:27.700 You have Google. 00:38:27.780 --> 00:38:28.420 I have the internet. 00:38:28.420 --> 00:38:28.600 Yeah. 00:38:28.600 --> 00:38:31.880 I figured it out while I'm talking, but Ed, you know, Ed used the term. 00:38:31.920 --> 00:38:32.200 It's funny. 00:38:32.240 --> 00:38:36.540 It's not minimal ecclesiology because, because minimal indicates you're, you're, you're, you're, 00:38:36.540 --> 00:38:37.760 you're getting rid of Wesleyan. 00:38:37.760 --> 00:38:38.500 He's a Wesleyan. 00:38:38.500 --> 00:38:40.820 I should know that because they're like one of the biggest groups that comes exponential. 00:38:40.820 --> 00:38:41.300 Yeah, there you go. 00:38:41.460 --> 00:38:42.680 God love the Wesleyan people. 00:38:42.780 --> 00:38:43.320 Thank, thank you. 00:38:43.360 --> 00:38:47.580 I'd love, but he uses the term essential ecclesiology, you know, it's, and it's, it's 00:38:47.580 --> 00:38:52.340 that boiling, you know, boiling it down to what's essential as opposed to, you know, 00:38:52.340 --> 00:38:57.140 hiding and, and minimalizing what's, what's sweeping away, you know, it's, we're doing a 00:38:57.140 --> 00:38:58.200 podcast season here. 00:38:58.200 --> 00:39:01.920 We're talking about next level moving beyond the weekend service. 00:39:01.920 --> 00:39:08.200 And just this conversation is, is ironic to me because three of the six episodes, I didn't 00:39:08.200 --> 00:39:12.600 plan it, but three of the six episodes have churches that are, that are really strong in 00:39:12.600 --> 00:39:16.040 digital micro church that are using digital for a micro church strategy. 00:39:16.040 --> 00:39:20.400 We've had Tyler Sansom on was earlier and first capital Christian church anywhere. 00:39:20.400 --> 00:39:25.340 They've got a small church of like 800, I say small, medium sized church of 800 people 00:39:25.340 --> 00:39:27.560 has like 25 micro locations. 00:39:27.560 --> 00:39:31.880 In addition to all sorts of other crazy stuff Tyler's doing, uh, Jay Crand is on next week. 00:39:31.880 --> 00:39:37.920 And, you know, I know Jay through Saddleback has, is, is moving towards a decentralized model 00:39:37.920 --> 00:39:40.660 as well, in addition to what they're doing in the physical space. 00:39:40.660 --> 00:39:46.860 And so there's a lot of opportunities for churches to think differently with how digital 00:39:46.860 --> 00:39:51.020 is and to move beyond just doing that streaming service, which is really the heart of what 00:39:51.020 --> 00:39:54.020 we're trying to do with, with the learning communities, the leadership network, which is 00:39:54.020 --> 00:39:59.340 why we were at like Tyler, Hey Tyler, come in and, and, and co-lead this with us and try 00:39:59.340 --> 00:40:05.960 to help us get, um, get going with this to help churches understand how to move beyond just 00:40:05.960 --> 00:40:11.380 broadcasting that service and doing something more tangible, more missional, more evangelic 00:40:11.380 --> 00:40:13.960 with, uh, with the, the digital tool. 00:40:14.120 --> 00:40:19.400 As a matter of fact, uh, the, the sharing Jesus online book, um, you know, we, I've talked 00:40:19.400 --> 00:40:24.680 about this actually is written up, uh, in a positive light and a negative light by relevant magazine. 00:40:24.900 --> 00:40:30.000 Uh, but we are, we're doing a, uh, uh, some, some mission trips into the metaverse. 00:40:30.000 --> 00:40:34.580 We're, we're helping churches go and take their people on, on, on a mission trip. 00:40:34.640 --> 00:40:41.220 We did a podcast on this earlier this year as well, but looking at, um, uh, you know, instead 00:40:41.220 --> 00:40:46.060 of buying a plane ticket to go to, I don't know, Belize to go on a mission trip to Belize, 00:40:46.060 --> 00:40:49.780 you know, instead of missing that week's worth of work and spending the hotel and getting 00:40:49.780 --> 00:40:56.440 your visa and passport, all that, we're challenging people to go buy a Oculus two for $350 and, 00:40:56.440 --> 00:41:01.000 and, and to literally the training is the book sharing Jesus online, which you can download 00:41:01.000 --> 00:41:06.180 for free and learn how to do the blessed practices in virtual reality. 00:41:06.260 --> 00:41:12.580 We're literally challenging people to get a headset, go into the metaverse and, and, and 00:41:12.580 --> 00:41:19.360 learn how to share Jesus relationally with, by the way, people in virtual reality are far 00:41:19.360 --> 00:41:24.000 more interested in having a conversation than people in physical space. 00:41:24.100 --> 00:41:28.700 You go up to somebody at Starbucks and start a random conversation, you're, there's a possibility, 00:41:28.820 --> 00:41:31.800 especially here in Miami, there's a, there's a decent chance I'm going to get an F-bomb. 00:41:32.240 --> 00:41:34.060 Virtual reality, you're not going to get F-bombs. 00:41:34.200 --> 00:41:35.500 Like it just, it doesn't work in that way. 00:41:35.540 --> 00:41:39.860 They want to talk that some of these world, like there's literally a world that's called 00:41:39.860 --> 00:41:45.260 VR chat and it's not called chat because of anything else other than the fact that people 00:41:45.260 --> 00:41:47.460 want to talk in that world. 00:41:47.460 --> 00:41:52.140 And so there's opportunities to start to dialogue in, in new ways through it. 00:41:52.140 --> 00:41:57.200 And so check out the learning community, uh, leadnet.org slash DLC, digital learning 00:41:57.200 --> 00:42:02.060 community, leadnet.org, MLC for the metaverse learning community. 00:42:02.480 --> 00:42:06.100 And, uh, more information is, is there on that. 00:42:06.200 --> 00:42:12.660 Well, well guys, we have, we packed a lot in here and into this podcast, Dr. John, your 00:42:12.660 --> 00:42:14.220 tech held up. 00:42:14.360 --> 00:42:15.980 We're very excited about that. 00:42:16.040 --> 00:42:17.200 Thanks for, thanks for coming in. 00:42:17.200 --> 00:42:21.040 Man, it was, it was kind of crazy, but I'm glad to be able to participate a little bit 00:42:21.040 --> 00:42:24.560 and appreciate the opportunity to hang out with you guys. 00:42:24.980 --> 00:42:25.680 Very cool. 00:42:25.800 --> 00:42:27.820 And, and Dave, it's, it's always a pleasure. 00:42:27.820 --> 00:42:32.540 So maybe, maybe as we're landing the plane here, a brief moment, Dr. John, any closing 00:42:32.540 --> 00:42:33.300 thoughts on your side? 00:42:33.840 --> 00:42:38.360 I would just encourage, uh, uh, pastors to, and hopefully this discussion has helped them 00:42:38.360 --> 00:42:41.580 kind of think, um, outside of any box that they have been in. 00:42:41.580 --> 00:42:45.000 And I think to some degree, all of us are in some kind of box that just box gets bigger. 00:42:45.580 --> 00:42:50.860 Um, and we, in the Holy Spirit, just want us to put mission first, mission first, mission 00:42:50.860 --> 00:42:51.240 first. 00:42:51.660 --> 00:42:58.380 And so to see opportunities online as well, to, to, to not just be a threat to in-person, 00:42:58.380 --> 00:43:02.680 but a supplement, an additional extension of the ministry. 00:43:03.220 --> 00:43:08.920 And, um, so in-person can launch into digital and, and digital can actually create some in-person, 00:43:08.920 --> 00:43:10.380 uh, relationships. 00:43:10.380 --> 00:43:15.800 So we had one house church start, start from a heart like his and that house church planted 00:43:15.800 --> 00:43:18.480 another, another house church all from starting digital. 00:43:18.480 --> 00:43:20.900 I mean, that person is in Colorado, I'm in California. 00:43:21.600 --> 00:43:27.200 And so, um, there's just so many things that God's doing and, uh, uh, doing it online is 00:43:27.200 --> 00:43:33.340 opportunity to be a part of ways of doing globally, um, in the most least expensive way possible. 00:43:35.560 --> 00:43:36.240 Very cool. 00:43:36.320 --> 00:43:39.780 So we've had, we've had four people on that, that are doing my microchurch. 00:43:39.860 --> 00:43:42.660 I didn't realize you had grown to, to a microchurch level yourself. 00:43:42.660 --> 00:43:43.180 That's cool. 00:43:43.720 --> 00:43:46.900 Dave, as, as we're landing the plane here in any closing thoughts on your side? 00:43:47.240 --> 00:43:47.440 Yeah. 00:43:47.460 --> 00:43:50.620 My, my closing thought is I, I see why you recruited Dr. 00:43:50.700 --> 00:43:52.300 John to coauthor this book with you. 00:43:52.640 --> 00:43:53.320 No kidding. 00:43:57.800 --> 00:43:58.120 Nice. 00:43:58.360 --> 00:43:59.040 Nicely done. 00:43:59.460 --> 00:44:00.200 Very cool. 00:44:00.200 --> 00:44:05.300 The secret was, was that, um, I probably wrote the first draft of the book. 00:44:05.380 --> 00:44:08.700 I probably wrote 60% of the book and Dr. 00:44:08.780 --> 00:44:10.360 John wrote 40% of the book. 00:44:10.520 --> 00:44:15.520 And, uh, by the time that the, the final version was, was written, Dr. 00:44:15.620 --> 00:44:19.800 John had probably written about 70% of the book and I'd probably written about 30. 00:44:20.000 --> 00:44:25.860 So he, uh, at some point he flipped the switch and it was like, boom, all Dr. 00:44:25.960 --> 00:44:27.500 John all over the place. 00:44:27.500 --> 00:44:32.600 And let's let, I just, I'll, I'll publicly say it like it is so much better than what I 00:44:32.600 --> 00:44:33.920 was drafting on my side. 00:44:33.920 --> 00:44:35.380 So it really came out well. 00:44:35.380 --> 00:44:39.060 So you can check out the book, sharingjesusonline.com. 00:44:39.680 --> 00:44:44.400 Um, you know, obviously Dave with exponential, with leadership network, with community, with 00:44:44.400 --> 00:44:47.360 new things, so many different hats and opportunities there. 00:44:47.380 --> 00:44:53.240 And it's a pleasure to work inside that ecosystem, uh, that is so supportive of a digital church, 00:44:53.360 --> 00:44:59.760 digital discipleship, digital ministry, um, and seeing Dave and, uh, and family and friends 00:44:59.760 --> 00:45:04.500 over there in that, in those, those worlds, um, really champion and get behind some of the 00:45:04.500 --> 00:45:05.340 work that's happening here. 00:45:05.420 --> 00:45:06.460 It's been a blessing. 00:45:07.060 --> 00:45:11.960 And so I, I consider it a joy to know both of these guys, uh, Dr. John and Dave have been 00:45:11.960 --> 00:45:14.460 influential for me in the past couple of years. 00:45:14.600 --> 00:45:18.260 And I'm looking forward to much more to come check out the learning communities, check out 00:45:18.260 --> 00:45:21.520 the book and, uh, thanks y'all for joining on the podcast. 00:45:21.680 --> 00:45:26.460 So for Dr. John, for Dave, this is Jeff with the church, digital digital church network. 00:45:26.780 --> 00:45:28.240 Thanks for jumping on the pod here. 00:45:28.500 --> 00:45:29.540 See you next time on the show. 00:45:29.640 --> 00:45:30.180 Y'all have a good day.