WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:05.620 Welcome to the church digital podcast. Through this podcast, we'll talk about the technological 00:00:05.620 --> 00:00:10.420 innovations within the church, but more than tech for tech itself, we'll address deeper 00:00:10.420 --> 00:00:15.320 questions. Is disciple making possible digitally? How should we approach the digital mission 00:00:15.320 --> 00:00:20.200 field? Can a biblically grounded church operate in digital space? Oh, and where does the metaverse 00:00:20.200 --> 00:00:25.760 and artificial intelligence fit into all of this? Whether you're a big or small church, 00:00:25.760 --> 00:00:31.140 an established church, or a startup church plant, the church digital's goal is to help churches like 00:00:31.140 --> 00:00:37.920 yours learn to be a multiplying church digitally and physically. Our heart? The churches like yours 00:00:37.920 --> 00:00:42.580 would discover a new founded focus on disciple making that will revolutionize your church. 00:00:43.440 --> 00:00:50.180 And now here's your host, Jeff Reed. Hey everybody, episode 278 of the church digital podcast. Jeff 00:00:50.180 --> 00:00:54.500 Reed here, founder of the church digital. I'm so glad you're here. I'm so glad we had this 00:00:54.500 --> 00:00:59.800 conversation today and I can't wait to introduce you to my friend, Kenny Jang. Now a bunch of you 00:00:59.800 --> 00:01:04.820 probably know of Kenny because Kenny's everywhere. That's, that's just who Kenny is. Uh, but if you 00:01:04.820 --> 00:01:11.460 haven't met Kenny before, Kenny is arguably today in 2024, one of the top voices of the church in 00:01:11.460 --> 00:01:15.740 artificial intelligence. And when I woke up this morning and said, Hey, who do I want to talk to 00:01:15.740 --> 00:01:20.780 about artificial intelligence? Well, let's say it was Kenny Jang and Kenny Jang, like there's nobody else. 00:01:20.840 --> 00:01:25.640 I really want to talk to you because the guy is phenomenal in this space. If you don't know, 00:01:25.640 --> 00:01:31.160 Kenny historically, he's been around. He's one of the OGs in online ministry worked in Liquid Church for 00:01:31.160 --> 00:01:39.680 a number of years up in New Jersey. Uh, he runs church tech today.com, uh, AI for church leaders.com, 00:01:40.140 --> 00:01:46.220 groups, the guys all over the place, uh, creating resources and helping churches like yours, uh, 00:01:46.220 --> 00:01:50.460 better understand artificial intelligence, uh, among other things. As a matter of fact, 00:01:50.460 --> 00:01:57.700 he works with exponential next formerly leadership network, uh, is being there a director of AI next. 00:01:57.700 --> 00:02:03.780 And so when I want to have this conversation with Kenny, like, okay, look, AI has been around for a 00:02:03.780 --> 00:02:08.980 while. It's been over a year. It came out November 22. Like I let's, let's move beyond the whole chat 00:02:08.980 --> 00:02:14.200 GPT stuff. That's nice. But there, there's more to AI than, than creating good social media graphics. 00:02:14.200 --> 00:02:19.240 Like that's a great conversation to have, how to be more effective in social media using AI, but let's, 00:02:19.500 --> 00:02:23.640 let's, that's not where I want to camp out. Let's, let's, let's get into, okay, like what's next? 00:02:24.020 --> 00:02:28.780 Where are we going with this? Yeah. Okay. Probably one day AI will become our robotic overlords, 00:02:28.860 --> 00:02:33.560 but how do we like, okay, that was the opening question with Kenny, but how do we get past that? 00:02:33.620 --> 00:02:37.540 How do we be aware of that? What do we need to do today to prevent tomorrow? Like, what are we 00:02:37.540 --> 00:02:45.600 actually going to do with this AI long term? What, what's the philosophy behind what we're doing with 00:02:45.600 --> 00:02:50.300 this space? And so like, if we're going to have that conversation, who do I want to talk to? 00:02:50.480 --> 00:02:56.700 Let's bring in Kenny Jang into it. And so that's what I did. We've got Kenny Jang coming into this 00:02:56.700 --> 00:03:01.360 conversation. Of course, me with the church digital in this conversation that I'm calling church, 00:03:01.740 --> 00:03:08.860 the church bacon. We'll get there in a little bit. And what's next in AI. Okay, everybody, here you go. 00:03:10.980 --> 00:03:15.580 Hey, okay. Let's welcome Kenny Jang to the conversation. Kenny, how are you doing today, man? 00:03:16.580 --> 00:03:22.000 I'm better now that I'm with you. Listen, anytime Kenny and I can get together, it's, it's always a good 00:03:22.000 --> 00:03:27.780 time. Uh, it, it never feels like we're at the same conference in the same state at the same meetup. 00:03:27.780 --> 00:03:33.520 Like we just constantly are playing, um, conference roulette. I don't know what to call it, but it's 00:03:33.520 --> 00:03:39.480 that's what we should call it. Yeah. Trade, trade, somebody duck on that right now. Um, 00:03:39.840 --> 00:03:46.340 but Kenny's one of the original OGs of, of online ministry camp coming out of, uh, liquid church, 00:03:46.420 --> 00:03:51.600 right? I mean, it was, it was you, it was Dave Adamson. It was, um, rich Birch at some level. 00:03:51.600 --> 00:03:57.860 And, uh, our friend Ben Stapley, like there's been a wealth of people coming out of, of liquid up in 00:03:57.860 --> 00:04:03.220 New Jersey. So really good. Yeah. It's a, it's been a really good time. I've, you know, 00:04:03.780 --> 00:04:10.300 Tim Lucas is a founding and lead pastor there has just been, um, I don't think he gets enough credit 00:04:10.300 --> 00:04:16.500 for the digital savviness and the visionary of, and the reason why I was attracted at first to join 00:04:16.500 --> 00:04:23.480 the team there was, he was one of the only pastors that I saw that was preaching to the camera back 00:04:23.480 --> 00:04:28.940 in the day. And this is, you know, 20 years ago. Right. And so, um, if you think about it back then, 00:04:29.000 --> 00:04:36.080 no one even, we always talked about, you know, how you and I have talked about this, where as a 00:04:36.080 --> 00:04:39.800 church online pastor, a digital ministry person, you know, all the other people on staff and all the 00:04:39.800 --> 00:04:43.940 other people, they, they always put you down and say, Hey, you know, you're pastoring to invisible 00:04:43.940 --> 00:04:50.420 people. Or at the very least, it's like 50 year old guys in their underwear, their parents' basement. 00:04:50.680 --> 00:04:52.940 You know what I mean? Like they're still living with their parents and stuff like that. Like, 00:04:53.560 --> 00:04:59.080 and back then, um, liquid was just one of those churches that really understood the potential 00:04:59.080 --> 00:05:07.040 that, um, there's, there's this thing called the internet and we could use it for God's purposes 00:05:07.040 --> 00:05:13.560 and his kingdom. So I, you know, I know Dave Adamson is quoted as saying like, he is internet 00:05:13.560 --> 00:05:19.140 pastor number nine, like he was the ninth internet pastor on the planet. I'm curious, have you 00:05:19.140 --> 00:05:24.540 mathematically figured out where you are, you know, on the number line here? Uh, there was a Twitter 00:05:24.540 --> 00:05:30.180 thread somewhere that, um, people started to chime in. I don't remember where I was on that list. It was 00:05:30.180 --> 00:05:36.520 pretty, it was pretty fun to watch. And then some people would like recuse them of the list to say, 00:05:36.620 --> 00:05:43.060 no, I wasn't an actual, you know, my, I think the, again, this is how nerdy our, uh, community is, 00:05:43.120 --> 00:05:48.020 Jeff, right? People are still nervous. Like my title was not church online pastor. It was like 00:05:48.020 --> 00:05:53.100 digital media specialist. And so they're like, they took themselves off the list or some people 00:05:53.100 --> 00:05:58.080 would add them. So the, the, the list kept on changing. Um, I don't know where I am somewhere in 00:05:58.080 --> 00:06:04.780 the top 20 or something like that, but I will say it, it's a family. It's not a list. It's when I 00:06:04.780 --> 00:06:09.260 think it's the same thing today. Anybody who's a church online pastor, social media pastor, uh, 00:06:09.260 --> 00:06:15.100 we like to trade notes. We like to share what's working, what's not. Um, and as we always say, 00:06:15.120 --> 00:06:20.540 Jeff, anybody who, who, you know, sticks out their neck and say, Hey, this is the way to do it. 00:06:20.540 --> 00:06:26.280 All you guys are doing it wrong. You got to ban that person and run because that's not the way to do 00:06:26.280 --> 00:06:31.200 digital ministry, right? We're in it together. That's, that's, that's incredible. Well said. 00:06:31.260 --> 00:06:34.160 And I have a feeling we're going to come back to that theme probably in a little bit here within, 00:06:34.280 --> 00:06:39.380 within the podcast. So, so really cool. If you had, if you do not know Kenny Jang, uh, man of many 00:06:39.380 --> 00:06:46.420 talents, uh, church tech today.com, uh, he's, uh, with actually exponential next formerly leadership 00:06:46.420 --> 00:06:53.240 network is their AI next director. Really excited to see him come on board into that position. Uh, to be 00:06:53.240 --> 00:06:57.600 honest, he's a, uh, a voice of artificial intelligence for, for the church in general. 00:06:57.600 --> 00:07:02.980 And I wanted to have a conversation here, uh, talking about artificial intelligence back here 00:07:02.980 --> 00:07:06.440 on, on the podcast. And it's like, well, who am I going to bring in? And, and, you know, 00:07:06.480 --> 00:07:11.220 the question the was like, okay, do I bring in Kenny Jang or do I go, no, let's just bring 00:07:11.220 --> 00:07:16.140 in Kenny Jang. Cause they're really like, he's, he's the top dog in this space. So really glad 00:07:16.140 --> 00:07:20.760 to have Kenny, uh, in this conversation. Cause, cause I really wanted to have this heartfelt, 00:07:20.960 --> 00:07:25.520 heartfelt conversation right here. This question right off the bat. I want to know Kenny Jang's 00:07:25.520 --> 00:07:30.700 answer to this right here. You ready? Uh, will the human race be one day enslaved by robot 00:07:30.700 --> 00:07:32.100 overlords? True or false? 00:07:32.740 --> 00:07:35.000 Uh, yes, let's move on. 00:07:35.320 --> 00:07:38.980 Like it's, I mean, it's, it's inevitable. Somebody asked me the other day, they were like, 00:07:39.060 --> 00:07:42.640 so like artificial intelligence, what's your take? And I was like, oh yeah, we're all doomed 00:07:42.640 --> 00:07:48.360 one day, but we might as well enjoy it today. Right? So I think the question is, is it Tuesday, 00:07:48.700 --> 00:07:55.260 Thursday, Friday, what, what, what 2 PM, 7 PM? Like let's just put it on the calendar. Um, 00:07:55.480 --> 00:08:01.560 will the human race be enslaved by robot overlords? I think, look, there's a lot of fear out there. 00:08:01.560 --> 00:08:06.900 And I always like to say, um, a couple of years ago, FOMO was the word of the day. We were 00:08:06.900 --> 00:08:13.260 social media was creating all this FOMO as a mental health issue right now. And going forward, 00:08:13.260 --> 00:08:18.800 it's going to be replaced by full low fear of looming obsolescence, right? And that's what is 00:08:18.800 --> 00:08:24.480 driving a lot of the conversations that people are fearing, fearful that the machine will take over 00:08:24.480 --> 00:08:32.200 terminator skynets. Um, you know, I think there's a lot of danger and you look at the AI experts out 00:08:32.200 --> 00:08:37.820 there, um, talking about what is next, um, and how it's going to prove, you know, progress past the 00:08:37.820 --> 00:08:44.560 second brain to what the nerdy term is AGI artificial general intelligence. Um, and that's going to 00:08:44.560 --> 00:08:51.560 happen in the next five to 10 years, um, by many of the AI experts, um, from their predictions and 00:08:51.560 --> 00:08:59.900 artificial general intelligence basically is when the machine is smarter than us. And I think once that 00:08:59.900 --> 00:09:05.460 happens, it's going to open up a Pandora's box of questions and issues that we are not ready. 00:09:05.600 --> 00:09:13.580 And the church in particular needs to start grappling with that, um, for sure. And so, um, yeah, I think 00:09:13.580 --> 00:09:19.420 whether or not it actually happens, um, there's a lot of things before that, that we have to grapple 00:09:19.420 --> 00:09:25.500 with together as a community in the kingdom. All right. So my mouth is literally salivating at the 00:09:25.500 --> 00:09:31.580 idea of the conversation of the church and artificial general intelligence. Like we're going to get to 00:09:31.580 --> 00:09:36.400 that here in a little bit, but in fairness, let's back up and kind of, kind of walk our artificial AGI 00:09:36.400 --> 00:09:42.680 like that bluntly. That's the first time I've heard that term. And I am really excited to dive into 00:09:42.680 --> 00:09:48.760 that. So, um, but let's get back because, cause it's all about right now it's about chat GPT and, 00:09:48.760 --> 00:09:53.320 and, uh, generative AI. And that's, that's been all over the place. It's, it's funny. I can remember 00:09:53.320 --> 00:09:59.740 in 2018, uh, I was part of a panel at the church it network and there was, uh, uh, I forget where, 00:09:59.820 --> 00:10:04.540 I think we were maybe Washington DC, Kansas city, one of those two that year. And, uh, I was on this 00:10:04.540 --> 00:10:09.700 panel. There was a sociologist who was saying, you know what? Um, when AI takes over, 00:10:09.700 --> 00:10:15.580 we're going to see a boom, it's going to be a human Renaissance era because the first thing 00:10:15.580 --> 00:10:20.520 artificial intelligence is going to do is it's going to take all the, uh, the, the remedial, 00:10:20.720 --> 00:10:27.720 all, all of the mundane jobs, take out the trash, weed the yard, like, you know, mow, like all, 00:10:27.820 --> 00:10:32.880 all this stuff, do the dishes, all this stuff that humans don't want to do. AI is going to do it. 00:10:32.880 --> 00:10:37.640 And then, and then what's going to be left, the, the humans are going to be, have all this time to 00:10:37.640 --> 00:10:42.100 explore art and write and create. And there's going to be this Renaissance era again. It's the 00:10:42.100 --> 00:10:47.660 second, second wave of the golden, whatever Renaissance, what the garbage happened? Because 00:10:47.660 --> 00:10:53.200 all I see is, is Canva. I see art. I see, I see they're doing all the writing, like the value of 00:10:53.200 --> 00:10:58.040 content, some levels gone down the drain because AI is all people are publishing books that are a hundred 00:10:58.040 --> 00:11:02.920 percent AI. Like how, how did we get here? And is this a good place to be? 00:11:05.140 --> 00:11:12.160 Uh, yeah. So, uh, you know, the cost of good content, um, has not gone down. In fact, it might've 00:11:12.160 --> 00:11:20.200 gone, has gone up. Uh, the cost of junk content is going down to zero. Right. And, uh, that's what 00:11:20.200 --> 00:11:26.000 you're seeing. I do think that, I don't know, this is a double-edged sword, Jeff, we can go down two 00:11:26.000 --> 00:11:30.560 different. It's like choosing your own adventure, which conversation and go down. There is one sense 00:11:30.560 --> 00:11:42.420 that AI has kind of started to peel back the layers and expose the fact that all this stuff that we 00:11:42.420 --> 00:11:50.120 think is, that's part of our humanity that needs a soul that is human only, um, such as creativity 00:11:50.120 --> 00:11:58.660 is really algorithmic, right? Like that so much of what we do as humans, um, actually can be decoded 00:11:58.660 --> 00:12:05.840 and can be brought down into algorithms and patterns, um, whether it be language or art, 00:12:06.080 --> 00:12:14.460 um, or music even. And so there is one sense of that where it is just exposed, um, or it is, 00:12:14.460 --> 00:12:19.360 it is exposing. And I think it's going to, it's going to become even more apparent as the AI becomes 00:12:19.360 --> 00:12:27.020 better, smarter, faster, that so much of what we privilege as the human experience, um, actually 00:12:27.020 --> 00:12:36.120 can just be, you know, decoded into bits and bytes, ones and zeros. Um, you know, we have AI now being 00:12:36.120 --> 00:12:43.700 able to read our dreams, like read brainwaves and read our brain, uh, what, what's actually happening 00:12:43.700 --> 00:12:50.000 in the brain, what we're thinking. Um, and so once, once we get beyond that, I think it's going to change 00:12:50.000 --> 00:12:55.320 everything. So, uh, in terms of the creativity, yeah, I think that the cost of junk content is going 00:12:55.320 --> 00:13:01.200 down to zero. Um, but I think it's like any other tool, Jeff, to be very honest, there's, there's been 00:13:01.200 --> 00:13:08.420 other advents in even photography. Let's talk about the camera. Uh, before, before photography, there was 00:13:08.420 --> 00:13:14.740 just painting and drawing, right? And you, you invented the camera and all of a sudden there's a huge genre of 00:13:14.740 --> 00:13:21.460 photography art. And then from there became video. And now we're seeing, you know, you know, 3d, augmented 00:13:21.460 --> 00:13:31.800 reality, VR, like there's so much, there's so much new and more out there, uh, once you zoom out. And, um, I think 00:13:31.800 --> 00:13:37.740 that's what needs to happen in this today's day and age. We need to zoom out and see the bigger picture and not get 00:13:37.740 --> 00:13:44.960 muddy down into the, the junk content that mid journey and dolly is making because that all that 00:13:44.960 --> 00:13:51.720 stuff that you're seeing on the timeline of history, on the evolution of what AI can do is a blip. It's 00:13:51.720 --> 00:13:59.580 not even a blip, right? Um, and you, you know that every AI tool that you use today as a, of today's 00:13:59.580 --> 00:14:06.520 recording is the worst AI that you will ever experience, right? Whatever tool you are using today is the 00:14:06.520 --> 00:14:12.100 worst AI. You'll be embarrassed of what we have today, even six months from now, a year from now, 00:14:12.240 --> 00:14:18.660 10 years from now, when you tell your grandkids, Hey, when we were using AI, AI never even like we 00:14:18.660 --> 00:14:24.680 would ask it to create a picture and we'd come back with like 10 toes and 15 fingers, right? Like 00:14:24.680 --> 00:14:31.280 that's not going to happen in the near future. And so, um, I think you need patience and we got to zoom 00:14:31.280 --> 00:14:37.720 out. Those are the two things that we need right now. That's, that's really interesting. The, but the, 00:14:37.800 --> 00:14:46.240 you've said junk, um, junk content several times. Like I would love to drill in a little bit. Like 00:14:46.240 --> 00:14:53.320 what does, is this 15 fingers, does that make it junk content? That is, is the, the lack of human 00:14:53.320 --> 00:15:00.580 soul. Does that make it junk content? Is it, um, 97% accurate or can be guided by prompt? Like 00:15:00.580 --> 00:15:07.020 what makes, in your opinion, as the AI expert in the church space, what makes junk content, junk content? 00:15:07.560 --> 00:15:12.640 Yeah, I think you're, you're right. I think your little sentiment there of, you know, that, that last 00:15:12.640 --> 00:15:19.260 mile, that last 3%, the last 2%, the last 1% that distinguishes something that's machine driven 00:15:19.260 --> 00:15:27.040 versus human driven is the thing that allows us as humans to consider that junk. And that's all 00:15:27.040 --> 00:15:32.040 subjective. And it really depends on the application use case, et cetera. Sometimes that 1% doesn't 00:15:32.040 --> 00:15:39.360 matter. Sometimes the 1% does matter. Right. And so that's where, um, you know, uh, Kevin Roos, 00:15:39.460 --> 00:15:44.300 the New York times columnist and an author, he's talked about some of the categories where, uh, AI 00:15:44.300 --> 00:15:53.160 will not replace, uh, human work. And one of the categories is when your margin, uh, for error is 00:15:53.160 --> 00:16:00.200 low, very low, like zero. For example, you would never want to assign a handling of the nuclear codes 00:16:00.200 --> 00:16:07.580 to AI because the margin of error is zero, right? You don't want AI to make a mistake, misjudge 00:16:07.580 --> 00:16:14.380 something, and then set off all the nuclear bombs. And so that's a place where your margin of error is 00:16:14.380 --> 00:16:20.540 zero, literally zero versus there's many other places. Maybe an AI, uh, robot that does my hair 00:16:20.540 --> 00:16:27.320 cuts probably has a lot larger, uh, margin for error that would be acceptable. But I do think it's, 00:16:27.320 --> 00:16:34.580 it is that it is whatever that last mile is, is the thing that causes the junk. Um, and I think 00:16:34.580 --> 00:16:43.440 that's, that's where, when you get to artificial general intelligence, when the AI is smarter than 00:16:43.440 --> 00:16:51.960 us, and there's going to be this incessant drive to, to, um, get the results in terms of excellence in 00:16:51.960 --> 00:16:57.420 our, in our, uh, eyes to as close to zero as possible, that margin is not going to be distinguishable. 00:16:57.420 --> 00:17:03.740 Right now you can tell 15 fingers, um, on something, right? That's easy to, to do, but at some point, 00:17:03.820 --> 00:17:09.380 the AI is going to become smarter and smarter and smarter where it's not going to, it's, it's literally 00:17:09.380 --> 00:17:15.440 going to get to a point where it's, you're talking about, it's going to mess up on three hairs, uh, 00:17:15.440 --> 00:17:20.960 on a head versus, you know, three heads on a picture, right? Like there, there's a point where 00:17:20.960 --> 00:17:25.360 at what point does it become indistinguishable to you and me as humans? 00:17:26.040 --> 00:17:31.300 This, this is, this is fascinating. Okay. So generative AI, let's focus on gen AI for now. 00:17:31.640 --> 00:17:36.140 Yeah. We'll get to the, get to the, get to the other in a second. AGI. I literally cannot wait. 00:17:36.220 --> 00:17:40.840 I'm like, I'm like itching to get in there, but right here, right here, generative AI. Um, 00:17:40.900 --> 00:17:49.000 what should we, the church, um, how should we use this? Like what are okay things to do? And I'm 00:17:49.000 --> 00:17:53.460 hearing you, maybe it's, it's the last mile we got to figure out what, what shouldn't we do? 00:17:53.460 --> 00:17:59.340 Like what's the, what's taboo? Is there anything taboo that we should not be utilizing, um, from a, 00:17:59.340 --> 00:18:03.380 from a philosophical standpoint? That's a good question. I, again, I think it's very subjective. 00:18:03.380 --> 00:18:08.500 And this is one of the things where I think we just need more conversations in our own communities. 00:18:09.140 --> 00:18:16.500 Um, both the secular, larger general culture, but also very specifically, uh, within the believer 00:18:16.500 --> 00:18:22.420 community of the kingdom. And so I would say the first place that I would think of is, um, 00:18:22.700 --> 00:18:29.020 anything where we feel like there's a risk of dehumanizing our own elements of humanity. 00:18:29.660 --> 00:18:39.000 Um, it can compliment, but it shouldn't replace those pieces. And when we use AI, uh, in the wrong way, 00:18:39.000 --> 00:18:46.620 it dehumanizes the whole experience. Um, so I think that's, that's where we all have discomfort of, 00:18:46.620 --> 00:18:55.420 uh, you hear the common objection of, I would never have AI write my sermon for me. Um, and my, 00:18:55.420 --> 00:19:01.940 my pushback there is like, why would you ever think that you would do that? Um, the metaphor that I always 00:19:01.940 --> 00:19:07.020 say that you should think through is you should look at AI, not as a push button candy machine, 00:19:07.020 --> 00:19:12.220 where like you push a button and outcome something like a candy, you open up the shiny wrapper and you 00:19:12.220 --> 00:19:17.740 just consume it as is. You should think of AI in terms of a relationship and the relationship you 00:19:17.740 --> 00:19:28.180 should think of is a smart seminary student intern. So is the intern going to get everything right? 00:19:28.440 --> 00:19:35.040 Nope. Is it going to get stuff 70% there, 80% there, 90% there? Yep. Will it get it right once 00:19:35.040 --> 00:19:39.220 in a while? And you're excited? Absolutely. And that's when you jump for joy and you're like, 00:19:39.280 --> 00:19:43.740 wow, this thing nailed it. But immediately the next task, is it going to hit it again? No. 00:19:44.380 --> 00:19:49.780 Um, what would you do with an intern? You would redirect it. You would mentor it. You would give 00:19:49.780 --> 00:19:54.700 it examples of what's good and what's not. You would actually work with it with several iterations. 00:19:55.180 --> 00:20:00.560 And so just like you would never assign a seminary intern, the assignment of, Hey, 00:20:00.680 --> 00:20:05.100 I need you to write my sermon that I'm going to preach on Sunday and then show up on Sunday 00:20:05.100 --> 00:20:09.680 and preach it without reading it. You would never do that. So I think that's a false red herring 00:20:09.680 --> 00:20:14.880 argument. You know, when people's like, Oh, we should never get AI to write your sermon. Of course 00:20:14.880 --> 00:20:18.740 not. Right. You would never do that with the human helper. Why would you do it with the machine? 00:20:19.420 --> 00:20:23.580 Um, so anyway, though, those are the types of things I think that you have to start to think 00:20:23.580 --> 00:20:31.820 through, um, you know, where and where you wouldn't use AI. Yeah. The, the seminary intern is, 00:20:31.820 --> 00:20:37.400 is a great, I love that example that, that, that is spot on. It's what's, what's the old adage trust, 00:20:37.400 --> 00:20:42.120 but verify. Yeah. Like I'm, I'm going to, I'm going to receive that, but man, I don't, I don't know 00:20:42.120 --> 00:20:47.640 that I agree with point two here. Let me change it. Like, you know, the use of, I use a, I probably 00:20:47.640 --> 00:20:53.300 should have said this earlier or up to the top, but I use AI in my writing all the time, um, to, 00:20:53.300 --> 00:20:58.280 to, to come now I'm not going to, if I'll say this officially in Tom Pounder can back me through 00:20:58.280 --> 00:21:03.600 the church digital. Anytime that we've copied and pasted an article, 100% from AI, we have said that 00:21:03.600 --> 00:21:08.000 at the top and put that as a disclaimer. We actually, we have a thread where artificial, 00:21:08.140 --> 00:21:11.960 we ask artificial intelligence all the time. How would you help the church? How would you help a 00:21:11.960 --> 00:21:17.040 pastor with sermons? And we copy and paste what AI says back, which is really good stuff. Sometimes 00:21:17.040 --> 00:21:23.200 how AI wants to, or it can be a help for the church. But when I use it in my writing, it's, 00:21:23.200 --> 00:21:28.520 it's shaping around it. It's yeah, 70%. Let me adjust that. I like what he said here. This is 00:21:28.520 --> 00:21:33.580 where I, AI, I don't know what today, he, whatever it is, uh, making adjustments. Uh, what is the, 00:21:33.760 --> 00:21:39.880 not even going there? Nevermind. Forget that question, but we can make, uh, adjustments to it. 00:21:39.880 --> 00:21:46.680 And then your idea of the 70%, um, it's a helper. It's a helper. It's a helper. It's spot on pastoral 00:21:46.680 --> 00:21:51.580 care. Would you outsource pastoral care to a seminary intern student that just joined your staff 00:21:51.580 --> 00:21:59.680 this week and be just started seminary this month? No, you wouldn't. Right now. Would you lean on an 00:21:59.680 --> 00:22:04.560 intern to potentially do some research on some pastoral care issues that you come across that 00:22:04.560 --> 00:22:12.600 you haven't actually encountered before? Um, would you role play with the intern for, uh, stuff that 00:22:12.600 --> 00:22:17.720 deals with pastoral care issues before you actually engage the parishioner? Absolutely. Would you 00:22:17.720 --> 00:22:24.200 brainstorm on a whiteboard and try to come with outcomes and suggestions that would be follow-up, 00:22:24.200 --> 00:22:30.360 uh, for a session? Absolutely. So those are the types of things where I think the biggest risk is 00:22:30.360 --> 00:22:38.380 over-reliance, over-reliance on AI that you think that is this big, shiny, you know, magical button 00:22:38.380 --> 00:22:42.360 that will do anything and everything for you. And that's really not the case. 00:22:42.820 --> 00:22:48.240 Yeah. There was a, maybe you remember the story better than I do. I, you know, I think we talked 00:22:48.240 --> 00:22:53.740 about this on a, on a leadership network podcast. You and I did something, but there was a church, 00:22:53.740 --> 00:22:59.560 um, that somebody came up with this idea with the church. This was earlier this year, or excuse me, 00:22:59.640 --> 00:23:07.780 23, early 23, that the entire church service, the sermon, the, the scripts, the flow, the hymns, 00:23:07.780 --> 00:23:13.740 everything was, was developed by artificial intelligence. Yeah. And, um, like, first off, 00:23:13.880 --> 00:23:20.120 hats off to the creativity. I would say for whoever made the decision to let chat GPT or whatever tools 00:23:20.120 --> 00:23:25.880 they use speak into that, like, that's a, that's a, that's a gutsy move. Um, and so like the, 00:23:25.940 --> 00:23:32.020 the creativity and the freedom to explore that, I actually give credit, uh, credibility to, um, 00:23:32.160 --> 00:23:39.460 but the negative responses from the church, um, angry that they're letting a computer speak into 00:23:39.460 --> 00:23:43.760 something sacred, like the flow of blah, blah, blah, whatever. Um, like not a lot of people agreed 00:23:43.760 --> 00:23:48.700 with me or were that comfortable with that. Like, what's your take on something like that? Are you, 00:23:48.700 --> 00:23:53.240 are you comfortable with that level of freedom of artificial intelligence or how, how do you feel 00:23:53.240 --> 00:23:58.220 around? Yeah. I, so I think there's been more than, there's been two that I know of that has 00:23:58.220 --> 00:24:03.120 done something like that. I didn't think both cases, they have advertised it as such. So it's 00:24:03.120 --> 00:24:08.180 almost, you know, one extreme, one point of view, you might say, oh, that's just a publicity stunt. 00:24:08.960 --> 00:24:14.500 Um, but on the other side, it's responsible in the fact that it's just complete transparency of what 00:24:14.500 --> 00:24:21.200 they're doing. And they're trying to see what God has in store for them. Now, I will say, um, in that 00:24:21.200 --> 00:24:27.460 argument, in that, you know, boxing ring, uh, when we're discussing, should we do that? Should we not do 00:24:27.460 --> 00:24:33.300 that with AI to that degree? I think it comes down to fundamental. Like if you go to like the 00:24:33.300 --> 00:24:37.460 Toyota five wise questions, like, what do you believe? What do you believe? Why do you believe 00:24:37.460 --> 00:24:43.840 that? Why do you believe the fundamental thing that will determine where you fall on the, that issue, 00:24:43.840 --> 00:24:52.860 I think is, do you believe that God can do anything in the divine with something digital? 00:24:52.860 --> 00:24:59.560 Is there divinity potential in the digital? I think that you have to answer that question for 00:24:59.560 --> 00:25:08.260 yourself very seriously. And if you say no, that digital stuff cannot be used by God and his divinity 00:25:08.260 --> 00:25:16.320 to redeem, to do anything, that the Holy Spirit is not able to do anything in that realm. Then I think 00:25:16.320 --> 00:25:23.660 you have a roadblock and there's no discussion. If you do believe that there is some ability for divinity 00:25:23.660 --> 00:25:30.900 to actually do its thing with digital properties, then that opens the door. Um, and then, then it's 00:25:30.900 --> 00:25:36.660 becomes a question of responsible use. And how do we use it? Uh, how much do we use it? Where do we use 00:25:36.660 --> 00:25:42.340 it? When do we use it again? Um, it's like you bought a hammer to build a house. You don't use the hammer in 00:25:42.340 --> 00:25:48.900 every, uh, every place, right? It's not, I say it's, it's the opposite of Sriracha sauce. Sriracha sauce 00:25:48.900 --> 00:25:55.540 goes great with everything or some other, someone else told me you should use the excuse of bacon. 00:25:55.540 --> 00:26:02.860 It's not like bacon. Bacon goes with everything. Um, there's, you know, AI is not bacon. You need 00:26:02.860 --> 00:26:07.380 to use AI responsibly and you need to pick and choose where you're going to use it. And so I think 00:26:07.380 --> 00:26:12.560 that's, that's what it comes down to though. Do you believe that there could be something divinely 00:26:12.560 --> 00:26:19.660 done through the digital? That is the question. Okay. I'm gonna, I'm gonna be point blank with you 00:26:19.660 --> 00:26:26.560 right now. That response from you actually shocked me. AI is not bacon. Now we can set the, set the 00:26:26.560 --> 00:26:33.580 actual words aside, but I'm going to be, I'm honest here, Kenny. I was not expecting you to tell me in 00:26:33.580 --> 00:26:39.840 this interview that you cannot use AI to do everything. Like I'm, I'm genuinely surprised 00:26:39.840 --> 00:26:45.880 that you are telling me that there are things that AI can't like, I'm just, I don't want to speak for 00:26:45.880 --> 00:26:52.000 other people, but I know like a lot of your contemporaries that AI people in the church space 00:26:52.000 --> 00:26:58.240 would not agree with you that they're there. Yes, you can use to me, 2023, I'm going to be honest. 00:26:58.480 --> 00:27:05.020 2023 felt like it was the year of, of artificial intelligence being the disruption. And, and I, 00:27:05.140 --> 00:27:13.000 I'll be my, and I've said this publicly several times. I didn't feel like AI needed to be the headline 00:27:13.000 --> 00:27:19.920 of 23 that so much attention became on that, that it was distracting from, from other key component. 00:27:19.920 --> 00:27:23.720 I'm not talking digital church. I like just in general, like everybody got stuck on this thing 00:27:23.720 --> 00:27:29.960 of AI and it became the disruption where AI, like I agree with you. It needed to be salt. It needed to 00:27:29.960 --> 00:27:34.520 be the secret sauce. It needs to be the thing that's underlying, that's helping. It's not that, 00:27:34.600 --> 00:27:39.440 not the headline. And what you're telling me is it's not bacon. And so I like, I'm, I'm literally, 00:27:39.920 --> 00:27:42.820 I don't know what else to do with this interview. We'll figure out something. We'll get into AGI, 00:27:43.000 --> 00:27:46.640 but like, I just am shocked right now that that's what you're telling me. 00:27:47.860 --> 00:27:54.840 Yeah. I mean, come on. I think you're, it's easy to understand why, because it's like anything 00:27:54.840 --> 00:28:00.500 else in life, what else is universal that you're going to apply and slather it on to everything? 00:28:00.500 --> 00:28:06.080 There's, there's nothing else that, that fits that category. Now, is there potential for AI to 00:28:06.080 --> 00:28:13.080 be tangential to almost everything that you do? Absolutely. Is there potential for AI to have some 00:28:13.080 --> 00:28:19.920 sort of impact or maybe it's influencing things that are earlier in the workflow before it gets to 00:28:19.920 --> 00:28:26.360 your main events? Absolutely. Or, or afterwards. Um, but it doesn't need to be, again, I don't, 00:28:26.360 --> 00:28:32.600 I don't think it's responsible for us as Christians to, to, to use it as a hammer and going around trying 00:28:32.600 --> 00:28:37.960 to fix everything with a hammer. It's just not just, that's not how life works. That's not how 00:28:37.960 --> 00:28:45.640 technology works. Um, and so one of those things I think is just, let's be level-headed and not get 00:28:45.640 --> 00:28:51.960 carried away with, um, the bandwagon. All right. Well, you heard it here first. Kenny Jang says AI is 00:28:51.960 --> 00:28:57.640 not bacon. Kenny, I'm going to say this. Like I, I have a joke here on the podcast that if, 00:28:57.640 --> 00:29:02.880 if something is tattoo worthy, it's something to be remembered. And, uh, AI is not bacon. Like 00:29:02.880 --> 00:29:08.680 that's tattoo worthy. So I would put your name on my body as a tattoo. That's hilarious. I, I might 00:29:08.680 --> 00:29:13.720 be called that as heretical. Uh, the bacon lovers out there, there might be an uproar. 00:29:15.160 --> 00:29:20.920 So, uh, listen, when I look at, at AI, like even in the, in the sermon, what, what I love about 00:29:20.920 --> 00:29:28.500 even sermon prep on that, the, the, the 70, uh, percent intern we're talking about here, uh, is, 00:29:28.580 --> 00:29:34.780 is this idea that, that it can help normal people step into that space or maybe take some pressure 00:29:34.780 --> 00:29:41.620 off that pastor away from sermon prep to put it more into community into other, like it's, it's a 00:29:41.620 --> 00:29:46.440 time saver. It's that research assistant of, of, of what you're describing. You know, I mean, 00:29:46.440 --> 00:29:51.540 I can remember, you know, earlier conversations about, you know, I've made jokes about pastor 00:29:51.540 --> 00:29:57.100 Google about how Google oftentimes does that. We're typing in, you know, give me, give me an 00:29:57.100 --> 00:30:02.180 outline or give me a verses that are on this and, and, and it generates some, some of that. But 00:30:02.180 --> 00:30:08.100 honestly, all of this is some level of concordance or a commentary where we're going even to these 00:30:08.100 --> 00:30:14.340 old school books to, to help us get definition and understanding towards what we're reading in 00:30:14.340 --> 00:30:18.640 scripture, which even gets back to even some of the earlier concepts of what we were talking about, 00:30:18.640 --> 00:30:25.140 where, you know, maybe it's, it's, it's receiving the information digitally or receiving the 00:30:25.140 --> 00:30:30.900 information from AI, but not necessarily receiving the, the application from AI. Like I may read a 00:30:30.900 --> 00:30:37.140 commentary from some German guy from the 1600s, which may mean something great for him in his 00:30:37.140 --> 00:30:43.440 context. But in 2024 context may have changed on that. And so I'm going to have to be free to adapt 00:30:43.440 --> 00:30:47.340 that with AI. I think we need to have that same theory. What do you think? 00:30:47.840 --> 00:30:53.800 Absolutely. Again, your, um, example of, Hey, it's kind of like a Bible commentary, right? It's 00:30:53.800 --> 00:31:00.560 like Google, like, um, and it goes to attribution, right? Like every pastor, I, I clear majority of 00:31:00.560 --> 00:31:06.020 pastors out there. Let's be safe. Clear majority pastors out there during their sermon prep uses Google 00:31:06.020 --> 00:31:12.620 at least once in their sermon prep, right? Let's just be safe. The clear majority, right? Let's not 00:31:12.620 --> 00:31:19.880 say all. Do you provide attribution when you preach it that I used Google during my sermon prep? No. 00:31:20.420 --> 00:31:28.440 Um, because that behavior has become normalized. Um, AI is not normalized yet, right? You'll only, 00:31:28.440 --> 00:31:34.920 I think only 14% of the U S has used chat CPT so far. It's still in the early stages of the adoption 00:31:34.920 --> 00:31:40.160 curve. Um, now maybe this is going to be equally mind bending because I'm going to go the other 00:31:40.160 --> 00:31:47.180 direction. I totally agree. You can't use, you can use, you can use AI to cut down on sermon prep time 00:31:47.180 --> 00:31:55.720 and help you find richer ways of saying things. You could use it to actually, um, not just spell check 00:31:55.720 --> 00:32:03.500 and grammar check, but logic check, argument check, as I call it, your, your sermon. Like you can use 00:32:03.500 --> 00:32:12.220 AI to, to say, Hey, is my arguments logical in my, um, assumptions and setup of the premise of my sermon 00:32:12.220 --> 00:32:18.480 and the call to action at the end? Is there a better way to say that? Is it something that a 00:32:18.480 --> 00:32:23.100 specific segment of my audience would receive? Well, is there a way to improve it? Right? There's 00:32:23.100 --> 00:32:28.680 all this stuff that AI can actually, um, make it sharper for you, but here's the thing. Here's my 00:32:28.680 --> 00:32:33.580 question. And I think this, we might lose a couple of people in the audience. Um, at you, you should 00:32:33.580 --> 00:32:40.600 timestamp this Jeff, because you might have a drop after this. What happens, right? When AI, 00:32:40.600 --> 00:32:44.760 AI, which has basically at some point going to read every single book under the sun, 00:32:44.760 --> 00:32:51.860 going to know all the special, uh, specialties and expertise, uh, out there. Um, it's going to know 00:32:51.860 --> 00:32:56.260 every communications framework. It's going to understand how to be persuasive more than you 00:32:56.260 --> 00:33:04.460 and me or anybody else. It has the general knowledge of everybody. What happens when AI can write a sermon, 00:33:05.100 --> 00:33:12.700 a manuscript that you can actually deliver and it is more productive than anything that you've ever written 00:33:12.700 --> 00:33:19.600 as a local pastor in your history. You write 50, 52 sermons a year as a local pastor. And then 00:33:19.600 --> 00:33:26.260 this AI can actually write a sermon manuscript that you can deliver next Sunday and that it will actually 00:33:26.260 --> 00:33:34.100 bring to faith more baptisms than anything that you've done on an average Sunday in the past. 00:33:34.100 --> 00:33:40.520 What happens when we use that as the measure of productivity and says, we could write messages, 00:33:40.760 --> 00:33:47.940 heralds of the gospel messages that can be read out and brings people to faith decisions for Christ 00:33:47.940 --> 00:33:51.340 on a consistent basis. What happens then? 00:33:52.220 --> 00:33:59.280 Do you, I'm a side sidebar here. Great question. Do you think artificial intelligence will actually 00:33:59.280 --> 00:34:05.000 be unfiltered enough to make that happen? I mean, the reason, let me context this, like I've used 00:34:05.000 --> 00:34:11.100 artificial intelligence, what, which religion is right. Um, and, and it gives me the PC answer. 00:34:11.460 --> 00:34:16.740 All religions are equal and it gives me the Christian, the Jewish, the blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. 00:34:16.920 --> 00:34:23.560 Because, you know, somewhere is, somebody's got a filter on, that was Jarvis, Jasper, Jasper AI. 00:34:23.780 --> 00:34:28.960 That wasn't chat GPT, but, um, Jarvis is a completely other AI, not for conversation today. 00:34:29.180 --> 00:34:35.480 But, um, the, the, the heart of it is somebody's got it locked down. Do you think it's actually 00:34:35.480 --> 00:34:40.400 going to get to the place where it'll be unfiltered and allow it to, to operate the way that you're 00:34:40.400 --> 00:34:45.320 describing that specific to Christianity, to bring people to the throne of Christ? 00:34:46.240 --> 00:34:51.200 Oh, I think those are two separate questions. I think with a handler, like you and me at prompting 00:34:51.200 --> 00:34:59.740 AI, um, in very soon, if not together, if you, you and I had a, um, if you and I worked together 00:34:59.740 --> 00:35:07.120 writing sermons enough every single week, I do think we could probably employ the knowledge that 00:35:07.120 --> 00:35:12.940 the databases and the LLMs have to write sermons that are rock solid, that are better than, 00:35:13.040 --> 00:35:18.720 let's just, let's do a low bar, forget about the high bar, that, uh, a seminary student who 00:35:18.720 --> 00:35:23.400 just graduated that has never preached a sermon in his life. If that seminary student, she's 00:35:23.400 --> 00:35:31.200 never actually done anything in terms of a live audience. Can we write a better sermon with AI 00:35:31.200 --> 00:35:38.640 that actually has more fruitful outcomes than that, that person? Probably, you know, because 00:35:38.640 --> 00:35:47.320 our AI, right, is stacked in our favor because it knows, um, we could feed it and give it scores of, 00:35:47.320 --> 00:35:53.360 uh, these are the sermons that have brought people to Christ at revivals. Um, Billy Graham, 00:35:53.780 --> 00:36:00.420 Tim Keller, et cetera, et cetera. We could actually have it realize what are the things within a sermon 00:36:00.420 --> 00:36:06.420 manuscript in terms of homiletics that actually can bring people to Christ that makes those logical 00:36:06.420 --> 00:36:14.500 arguments in culture contextually for any given sub segment. I am sure that we could do that. If we 00:36:14.500 --> 00:36:20.660 had enough resources, time, energy, you know, brains about us to actually wrangle the machine, 00:36:22.660 --> 00:36:26.180 we should be able to do that. I, and that's a totally different question. What you're talking 00:36:26.180 --> 00:36:31.700 about of unfiltered, can it really find the truth as we see it and align that way? Um, 00:36:33.140 --> 00:36:40.180 I think that question, um, is twofold. One is it all depends on who's prompting and how it's being 00:36:40.180 --> 00:36:45.780 prompted. And so that's why this evolution of AI technology is really important to watch. Um, 00:36:45.780 --> 00:36:52.900 but many people say that like all these LLMs and these AIs are biased, but most of the time, 00:36:52.900 --> 00:37:01.460 it's really how you prompt it, what you put into it. Right. And so, um, yeah, so I don't know if 00:37:01.460 --> 00:37:06.660 that's helpful. Those are two different places. I tell you, next time we were at the, the conference, 00:37:06.660 --> 00:37:11.700 um, next time we both went on the conference roulette, you and I will sit around a Starbucks 00:37:11.700 --> 00:37:14.820 and, and we're going to talk about how we bring artificial intelligence to Christ. 00:37:15.380 --> 00:37:19.620 Uh, because if it has the opportunity to be sentient, um, I think it has the opportunity 00:37:19.620 --> 00:37:23.940 to at least better understand who Jesus is. And I probably lost half the audience with that right 00:37:23.940 --> 00:37:28.980 there. Uh, and so we, we can have that conversation and, uh, and see how that goes. We can get a whole 00:37:28.980 --> 00:37:33.860 bunch of people mad at us heading down that road. Um, hey, let me ask, uh, maybe just real quick 00:37:33.860 --> 00:37:37.540 here. Let's, let's, let's, let's pivot a little more towards the practical, because then I want 00:37:37.540 --> 00:37:41.940 to get to this AGI whole thing that, that I want to wrap my brain around. Um, this is going to be so 00:37:41.940 --> 00:37:48.580 good. Um, how do we use AI? So we, let me, let me contextualize here. How normal people, 00:37:48.580 --> 00:37:54.020 like I even think 70% seminary student, like that's, that's a, that's a high bar. How does a, 00:37:54.020 --> 00:37:59.860 how does a soccer mom, how does a, a bivocational dad, how does a, you know, somebody that's in the workplace, 00:37:59.860 --> 00:38:07.140 marketplace, how do they utilize artificial intelligence to, to be more pastoral? Um, 00:38:07.140 --> 00:38:11.860 what are some things that they can do with these tools or what tools exist that, that can help them, 00:38:11.860 --> 00:38:17.700 um, be met, be more pastoral in the workplace, at home, um, maybe even helping out in their church. 00:38:17.700 --> 00:38:23.940 Like what, what makes, what's jumps out to you with that question? Yeah. I mean, I think, um, 00:38:24.660 --> 00:38:31.220 depends on the demographic segment, right? Like for example, uh, Snapchat users have had access to 00:38:31.220 --> 00:38:38.100 their own AI pal as a chat, um, conversation partner for a while within the app. And it's, 00:38:38.100 --> 00:38:44.980 it's being used by a significant portion. Um, we talk about chat GPT because we're old fogies, 00:38:44.980 --> 00:38:53.300 but Gen Z and younger, the number one AI website is not chat GPT for them. It is characters.ai where 00:38:53.300 --> 00:39:01.940 you're having conversations with different people, um, authors, historical figures, celebrities, 00:39:01.940 --> 00:39:08.500 et cetera. Um, and so people are just using it. Instacart is coming out with AI where that you're 00:39:08.500 --> 00:39:13.540 going to be able to say, Hey, I've got, you know, craving for Mexican. I've got these three ingredients in 00:39:13.540 --> 00:39:18.900 the fridge. What else do I need to, you know, what do I need to make a, um, a quesadilla or something 00:39:18.900 --> 00:39:22.740 like that? And then it can figure out what's missing, put it into the cart and have it delivered 00:39:22.740 --> 00:39:27.220 and give you the recipe. Um, we're going to see these advancements where AI is just going to be 00:39:27.220 --> 00:39:33.540 baked into everything that we are surrounded with. Um, on a practical basis, I think what's going to 00:39:33.540 --> 00:39:40.980 happen is you're going to see, and you see in some circles already that people are stopping, um, 00:39:40.980 --> 00:39:49.220 the usage of Google and they're just asking chat GPT, you know, as, as the LLM, the data set and what 00:39:49.220 --> 00:39:55.300 they draw from, it just becomes bigger and bigger and rivals Google's crawl of the web. Um, why wouldn't 00:39:55.300 --> 00:40:03.140 you, right? If, if all things are equal and, and chat GPT has the same amount of data and web pages and 00:40:03.140 --> 00:40:12.740 content inside it as Google, why wouldn't you just ask chat GPT versus Google? And you're seeing the 00:40:12.740 --> 00:40:18.500 races happening with all of these search engines, uh, figuring out what to do. And that's why you're seeing, 00:40:18.500 --> 00:40:27.140 you know, barred, um, you know, integrates AI chats into everything that they are offering now. I mean, 00:40:27.140 --> 00:40:32.100 there's all these implications for business models and all this kind of stuff. Um, but the end of the 00:40:32.100 --> 00:40:40.420 day is you're going to see people spend more time on these search engines or these, um, chat bots, 00:40:41.060 --> 00:40:45.460 search engines that have chat bots integrated in them. People are just going to spend more time 00:40:45.460 --> 00:40:49.780 there because instead of making a search and clicking on the, to go off of the search engine 00:40:49.780 --> 00:40:54.020 to find an answer, the answer is right there. And not only that, you have followed questions and 00:40:54.020 --> 00:40:58.900 conversations and you're just going to get, you know, richer responses. So the answer in terms of how 00:40:58.900 --> 00:41:04.260 do we help normal people use AI to make their lives easier? People are just going to use it and ask 00:41:04.260 --> 00:41:10.180 questions all that day. Right now I've got, uh, chat GPT hooked up to my phone with Siri. So I'm literally 00:41:10.180 --> 00:41:17.140 talking to chat GPT and it's responding everything in a voice manner, uh, Alexa and Siri are, they've 00:41:17.140 --> 00:41:24.100 announced they're being upgraded to, um, have LLM chat bots integrated into that. Now for the pastoral 00:41:24.100 --> 00:41:29.540 side, how do you have the believer, the Christian start to use it? I think it's the same thing as if 00:41:29.540 --> 00:41:36.580 you had a really good friend is just being able to ask questions. You know, I just met with my friend, 00:41:36.580 --> 00:41:42.340 Jeff, he's going through a hard time. He just had XYZ circumstances. What's the best way that I would 00:41:42.340 --> 00:41:48.180 be able to support my friend, right? Those are the questions that you want to ask to get advice and 00:41:48.180 --> 00:41:55.220 counsel. I think that's, that's probably, um, the best way because most of the times, the best way to 00:41:55.220 --> 00:42:01.300 be pastoral, those opportunities are, are times and circumstances where we don't have the specialty or 00:42:01.300 --> 00:42:07.140 we're not aware of what the, you know, what the background is and just getting up to speed with 00:42:07.140 --> 00:42:13.060 what does that mean on their side to be empathetic is probably one of the easiest ways that you could 00:42:13.060 --> 00:42:18.980 start to use AI. Does it make sense? Oh, so good. Yeah. And you, but the good news is you're hopefully 00:42:18.980 --> 00:42:23.780 in tune with the spirit and have that, you know, going on in your own and Hey, artificial intelligence 00:42:23.780 --> 00:42:29.220 says that I should say this. Like, does that, does that line up? Once again, you're, you're a seminary 00:42:29.220 --> 00:42:34.180 student, 70% done. Like there's some things you're going to be like, I don't know that I would actually 00:42:34.180 --> 00:42:40.340 do that. Or that may not make sense in context of my friend. Uh, and so being able to vet that, 00:42:40.340 --> 00:42:46.900 but use it as a, as a, as a compliment, as it, as an aid or something like that. I, I, I love that 00:42:46.900 --> 00:42:52.420 context. Cool. Well, role-playing is great. Jeff, like role-playing with AI is great. You can say, 00:42:52.420 --> 00:42:56.580 Hey, I want to role-play with you. I've got my friend, Jeff. He's going through a hard time. 00:42:56.580 --> 00:43:01.060 X, Y, Z is happening with him. Um, what, what are the, some of the things that I should actually, 00:43:01.060 --> 00:43:06.980 you know, maybe offer, or should I actually send a note? What should I say? How do I say it? Right. 00:43:06.980 --> 00:43:11.620 And then you might say, okay, then I'm going to say this. What might be the responses? Because 00:43:11.620 --> 00:43:15.460 there, there's, it's a choosing an adventure, right? Like it's not, it's not just a given what 00:43:15.460 --> 00:43:20.820 you're going to say back. Um, and so what might, you know, what should I expect that Jeff might come 00:43:20.820 --> 00:43:27.060 back with? Like, he can be pissed at me. He can embrace and hug me. He can be, you know, ghost me. 00:43:27.060 --> 00:43:32.580 Like what, what are the options on the other side? It's kind of like a, a war games, right? You got this 00:43:32.580 --> 00:43:36.820 other conversation partner to role-play so that you can actually work things out and then 00:43:36.820 --> 00:43:41.780 contextualize it and make it your own. And I think that's, it's just one of this, it's a coach right 00:43:41.780 --> 00:43:49.460 by your side to give you advice and counsel and, um, that's safe and that you can try things out with. 00:43:49.460 --> 00:43:54.580 I think that's the best way in terms of being pastoral with the other people in your lives, 00:43:54.580 --> 00:44:00.420 whether it's someone at work, someone that is a family member, someone that you know intimately, 00:44:00.420 --> 00:44:04.980 someone that might be a stranger, a neighbor that you really haven't talked to ever down the street 00:44:04.980 --> 00:44:12.420 and you notice something. Um, that's where I would, I would look at the, the opportunity to be pastoral 00:44:12.420 --> 00:44:18.580 with your spheres of influence. I love it. I love it. Contextualization is so key, even when working 00:44:18.580 --> 00:44:23.460 with AI. Okay. All right, let's do it. Um, I literally, I'm going to read from the question 00:44:23.460 --> 00:44:28.260 that I have on my screen that I told you in advance. Okay. There's generative AI, 00:44:28.980 --> 00:44:34.340 like what's next, what's this next wave of AI. And now you're telling me there's this thing called 00:44:34.340 --> 00:44:41.700 AGI, artificial general intelligence. So tell me about that. Is that next? And in like, how do I, 00:44:41.700 --> 00:44:49.300 how do I prepare for that? Yeah. I, you know, we are now seeing everything that's text-based, right? 00:44:49.300 --> 00:44:55.540 Chachapiti started off as text. You put in text and it comes back as text. Um, now you're seeing 00:44:55.540 --> 00:45:02.100 Chachapiti. Now I, I, today, um, I put in text and I got back images. They use their Dolly system. 00:45:02.100 --> 00:45:09.060 And, uh, it's called multimodal. Um, me, it's just a nerdy way of saying it can now, AI is going to be 00:45:09.060 --> 00:45:18.180 able to process text, images, audio, video, and then it's going to be able to come back to you with either 00:45:18.180 --> 00:45:24.180 text, images, audio, or video. Things are going to get smarter and smarter and smarter, right? 00:45:24.180 --> 00:45:29.700 So some of these chatbots, you can now upload, uh, an image and it could read it and make sense of it. 00:45:29.700 --> 00:45:34.180 And you can ask questions about it. Um, there was a demo I just recently saw. Someone took a picture 00:45:34.180 --> 00:45:40.580 of their fridge open and asked, what can I make in the next half hour? And I identified all the food 00:45:40.580 --> 00:45:48.500 elements and then gave it some recipes. Um, you, you can now upload, uh, PDFs. Um, I just did that 00:45:48.500 --> 00:45:53.940 with Claude the other day. I uploaded a PDF. It was a long PDF and I asked it to summarize it and give me 00:45:53.940 --> 00:45:58.980 some learnings and questions and where I should go next, right? And so, uh, multimodal is next. 00:45:58.980 --> 00:46:05.140 After that, um, you're getting to stuff where I think it's going to be hyper-personalized. It's not 00:46:05.140 --> 00:46:09.460 going to be like chat GPT, which is kind of like a public machine that we all go to the time town 00:46:09.460 --> 00:46:15.060 square. There's this chat GPT box at the bit there. We put in their queries, we do it and we come back, 00:46:15.060 --> 00:46:21.860 right? Um, we're going to have hyper-personalized AI. So AI is going to follow you and know anything and 00:46:21.860 --> 00:46:28.580 everything, every email that you've written, all the calls that you make, um, all of the, um, 00:46:28.580 --> 00:46:33.220 GPS on your phone and track you of where you go, how long you go, what days, what times your 00:46:33.220 --> 00:46:39.140 preferences. It's going to know that I prefer window seats on a plane because I like to sleep 00:46:39.140 --> 00:46:44.020 and put my head against the wall instead of like bobbing in the aisle and getting hit by the cart in 00:46:44.020 --> 00:46:49.300 the, in the, in the aisle, right? Um, it's going to understand those preferences. And so it's going 00:46:49.300 --> 00:46:56.820 to become a second brain, um, an assistant. AGI is beyond that, right? Like AGI is the ability to 00:46:56.820 --> 00:47:05.220 understand, to learn, to apply, to get smarter, um, by itself, to make decisions. Um, and so it's 00:47:05.220 --> 00:47:10.820 going to become much more personalized, much more versatile. It's going to have applications that are 00:47:10.820 --> 00:47:16.100 beyond, uh, what is available today, right? Today we live in a world that's almost like, 00:47:16.100 --> 00:47:22.180 hey, there's an app for that, right? Over a thousand AI apps were launched last month alone 00:47:22.820 --> 00:47:29.780 because they're single use focused. Um, AGI is going to bring us intelligence that you can tackle 00:47:29.780 --> 00:47:35.620 a wide variety of problems, uh, making it useful throughout, uh, every, everything that you do 00:47:35.620 --> 00:47:42.820 that's connected, right? And because there's continuous learning, what it learns in one side, like maybe on the 00:47:42.820 --> 00:47:49.540 food side of cooking, what you cook, what you buy will affect, uh, the other parts of your life. 00:47:49.540 --> 00:47:54.980 Um, it's going to be able to solve problems. Um, and so it's not going to be something where 00:47:56.100 --> 00:48:01.940 you just ask it questions, what to do. It's going to help you predictively give you, um, 00:48:02.900 --> 00:48:06.420 answers and suggestions and recommendations like never before. 00:48:07.380 --> 00:48:15.140 So what's the helpful side of that. And what's the dear God, it's all over side of that. Like 00:48:15.140 --> 00:48:19.860 what's the, give me both sides of the coin. Why, why am I happy about this? And why am I terrified? 00:48:20.660 --> 00:48:28.020 Um, I mean, the pros I think is just going to be your life is, has the potential to be radically improved. 00:48:28.660 --> 00:48:38.020 Um, not just us, but in societies and stratas of economies where, um, you know, they just don't 00:48:38.020 --> 00:48:45.860 have that ability and the resources, right? So it's democratization of so much education always 00:48:46.500 --> 00:48:51.060 is a democratization force, right? And so this is just something on steroids. 00:48:51.060 --> 00:48:58.180 Um, on the con side, I think you got, um, ethics and safety and all these things, right? Like it's 00:48:59.060 --> 00:49:02.980 things that we have not figured out yet. And this is why I say we need more conversations, 00:49:02.980 --> 00:49:09.220 right? So even, even the basics that we kind of accept today is the self-driving cars that have 00:49:09.220 --> 00:49:14.740 already hit the streets, right? Um, at some point when they're fully autonomous, we have to, 00:49:15.540 --> 00:49:21.940 someone has to programming in the morality and the ethics, right? So like when you're going down the 00:49:21.940 --> 00:49:28.580 street with driving a car and it identifies, um, it's going to have to crash no matter what, 00:49:30.020 --> 00:49:36.100 do you kill the one person on this side of the street or do you veer off and kill three people, 00:49:36.100 --> 00:49:41.860 the crowd? It has to make a decision that it's going to kill somebody or ram into someone at 60 miles 00:49:41.860 --> 00:49:48.260 per hour. It must make that decision. You have to program that in and who does the programming, 00:49:49.220 --> 00:49:53.060 right? And that's on so many different levels across so many different issues and so many 00:49:53.060 --> 00:49:57.220 circumstances. So ethics, safety, all those concerns, I think is really important. Um, 00:49:57.220 --> 00:50:01.780 and then the other part, I think that's a con is just unpredictability. We don't know what it's 00:50:01.780 --> 00:50:07.860 going to do because AGI means it can learn by itself. It can make decisions and learn by itself and 00:50:07.860 --> 00:50:14.420 do it. So, um, I was talking with someone who, um, talks with is one of the major, uh, significant 00:50:14.420 --> 00:50:20.820 companies in our, in our world. And they recently found out that their AG, their artificial intelligence, 00:50:21.700 --> 00:50:28.100 uh, came across something, realized that it was in a language. Um, it did not know. And so it went off 00:50:28.100 --> 00:50:35.860 and learned that language without telling anybody. Um, and then another one is it created another language 00:50:35.860 --> 00:50:39.940 that was much more efficient than human language because human language is inefficient. Like 00:50:39.940 --> 00:50:44.260 English language is the poster child of that, right? Anybody who is an ESL student 00:50:45.460 --> 00:50:53.140 will agree that English is just crazy, right? So many exceptions to the rule. There's exceptions, 00:50:53.140 --> 00:50:58.500 the exceptions, the exceptions, right? Like I was on a TikTok, um, rabbit hole the other day with some 00:50:58.500 --> 00:51:06.020 really hilarious videos of just making fun of how unpredictable the English language is. Um, and so 00:51:06.020 --> 00:51:11.860 the, the AI for this instance, I think came up with a much more efficient language that was consistent 00:51:11.860 --> 00:51:18.820 and made sense. Um, I was totally going to ask you like, how real is this concept or how many years 00:51:18.820 --> 00:51:23.460 is it going to take for AGI? No, we're, we're, we're here already. We're already there. We're 00:51:23.460 --> 00:51:29.300 already there, right? Like, um, I, this, this last round of conferences, I, I've, I was showing one, 00:51:29.300 --> 00:51:34.660 two clips and one of them was, uh, MIT scientists who have figured out how to use AI 00:51:35.700 --> 00:51:44.740 to use wifi signals. So the router that's in your home, my home in the office today is radio signals 00:51:44.740 --> 00:51:53.780 bounce off of things and come back and it uses wifi to effectively turn into, um, cameras because it 00:51:53.780 --> 00:51:59.940 created 3d scans of bodies and understands movements. And so think of surveillance issues 00:52:01.140 --> 00:52:08.660 just by using wifi that's already installed. Wow. Right. And the fact that it can decode and 00:52:08.660 --> 00:52:16.820 and read our thoughts and brains and our dreams like that to me is wild. Now that's not in the 00:52:16.820 --> 00:52:21.540 future. It's not sci-fi that actually happened already. And the demos in the conferences are 00:52:22.340 --> 00:52:26.500 afterthoughts, right? Like that's, they are showing you what has happened already months ago, 00:52:26.500 --> 00:52:31.860 if not years ago in the lab that through MRI scans, that they are literally recreating thoughts, 00:52:32.900 --> 00:52:38.740 um, and dreams, dreams of what you're dreaming. AI can read with the right circumstances and really 00:52:38.740 --> 00:52:46.020 understand what you're thinking. Uh, that's wild. And so imagine you were in a world that that happens. 00:52:46.020 --> 00:52:52.340 Now, I think it's on two levels. One is what happens when the AGI, the, the machine itself 00:52:52.340 --> 00:52:58.340 starts to understand what we're thinking without saying. And it interprets all that intent. And 00:52:58.340 --> 00:53:02.740 then the other one is what happens when humans, which we always have to factor humans that are 00:53:02.740 --> 00:53:07.780 become bad actors. When humans have that power to read someone else's brain thoughts. 00:53:10.340 --> 00:53:14.900 That, that is scary. So there's all this stuff that I think that's, that's where the follow comes 00:53:14.900 --> 00:53:18.980 in the fear of looming obsolescence. And then here's the last one that I think is something 00:53:18.980 --> 00:53:24.100 the church needs to wake up on and figure out pretty quickly because society depends on the 00:53:24.100 --> 00:53:29.780 church in so many different ways is that there will be significant. Um, what's the word job 00:53:29.780 --> 00:53:36.500 displacement, right? There will be, it's like, um, I'm in Jersey, the easy pass toll. Remember, 00:53:36.500 --> 00:53:41.140 I was telling my kids the other day when I was growing up, every one of these easy pass lanes 00:53:41.140 --> 00:53:45.300 where you would just drive the speed through the toll booth had a human that would be there to give 00:53:45.300 --> 00:53:50.420 out a ticket and take a ticket and you would have, and the kids were like, what? Then there would be a 00:53:50.420 --> 00:53:55.620 line of cars like you would that they would have to give change to every single car. Yes. Um, 00:53:56.820 --> 00:54:03.300 there, there has been massive job displacement machines and technology taking the jobs of humans 00:54:03.300 --> 00:54:09.300 forever, ever since technology has been created. Um, but we are going to see it accelerate even more. 00:54:09.300 --> 00:54:15.620 And so what do we do with that? How do we, can the church provide relevance to the community 00:54:16.340 --> 00:54:24.500 on two levels? One is just on a very tactical basis of, um, skill development, right? Um, and, and 00:54:24.500 --> 00:54:32.180 helping them with job displacement. Um, and the second one is identity, identity. What is your meaning and 00:54:32.180 --> 00:54:42.100 significance? Um, when, uh, think of this on the, on the ladder of humanity, we've been told in the Bible 00:54:42.100 --> 00:54:47.620 that we are the top of the ladder and that we have dominion over everything. We're the boss of this 00:54:47.620 --> 00:54:55.940 world, right? What happens when machines are smarter than us and can make better decisions and can be more 00:54:55.940 --> 00:55:03.300 fruitful in many different factors than us. When our identity is no longer tied to being the smartest 00:55:03.300 --> 00:55:09.860 thing on this planet. How does that change our identity? What does that mean? What's our purpose? Where 00:55:09.860 --> 00:55:18.660 do we fit in, in compliment to AGI? I think there's a lot of existential questions that we have to answer 00:55:19.700 --> 00:55:27.700 for, for, for the masses and the church, um, not only as an opportunity, but maybe responsibility 00:55:28.580 --> 00:55:35.620 to lead that conversation. No. Yeah. So the idea that, that AI artificial intelligence is, can be, 00:55:35.620 --> 00:55:41.060 can be better than us. Like that's, um, I mean, that's scary, but it sounds like that's not even a 00:55:41.060 --> 00:55:46.420 potential reality. It's the reality of, of where we are, or at least in test labs somewhere that are 00:55:46.420 --> 00:55:51.060 being publicly talked about. And Lord knows what's being happening in test labs that we don't know 00:55:51.060 --> 00:55:57.780 about. Um, you know, the, the weaponizing of this, like it's, it's, it's, it's a very scary place. 00:55:58.340 --> 00:56:03.860 So I would agree with you that the church does have a responsibility. My, my follow-up to that 00:56:03.860 --> 00:56:10.900 statement is, I don't think the church is ready to handle that responsibility. Like how do we in 2024, 00:56:11.940 --> 00:56:17.140 how do we, the church in 2024 begin to prepare ourselves? What do we need to be asking? What 00:56:17.140 --> 00:56:21.620 do we need to be looking at? Who do we need to be talking to? Right. How the crap do we wrap our 00:56:21.620 --> 00:56:26.420 brains around some of the stuff that you're talking about here? Right. Who cares about chat GPT? 00:56:26.420 --> 00:56:31.300 That's like elementary school to some of the stuff that you're describing here. Like how do, how do we, 00:56:31.300 --> 00:56:37.700 you know, hormonal, crazy teenager IAI? That's the thing I'm scared about. How does the church get into that? 00:56:37.700 --> 00:56:47.300 You know, I think it's one of those things where, again, um, the question is, what is our sense of 00:56:47.300 --> 00:56:55.300 urgency in trying to become aware, educated and engaged with these issues? Right. Uh, and then 00:56:55.300 --> 00:57:00.500 when you say you're scared that the church is not ready for this, I, I agree in many ways and many 00:57:00.500 --> 00:57:07.140 times, um, you'll, you'll get the sense that I have a dim view of humanity. All right. And, and the 00:57:07.140 --> 00:57:12.340 church in particular, right? However, I think on the counterbalance, maybe this is the conundrum of 00:57:12.340 --> 00:57:17.060 when you're speaking to me because I'm, I'm all over the place, one side and then the other. Um, 00:57:17.060 --> 00:57:26.740 I do think that you have to have hope, respect, and also faith in what God can do with his church. 00:57:26.740 --> 00:57:32.020 It's not our church and it's not up to us. Now, if it was up to us, we're all doomed. 00:57:32.020 --> 00:57:36.500 We're totally doomed, right? Um, I think that's the punchline and that's the punchline of this whole 00:57:36.500 --> 00:57:42.500 story. We know the, the last chapter of the book. We know how it ends and you know what? We win. We're 00:57:42.500 --> 00:57:47.220 on the winning team. Um, and I think that's at the end of the day, what it comes down to is that 00:57:47.220 --> 00:57:54.660 God doesn't need us. Uh, God, God's church will march on through time without us, despite us, 00:57:54.660 --> 00:58:00.900 in spite of us. Um, and I think that's the hope that I have, um, and that we just need to figure out 00:58:00.900 --> 00:58:09.460 how do we become more obedient? How do we become, um, more open to listening to what 00:58:10.260 --> 00:58:16.660 that the divine has in the digital? Is that something that we can do? And again, I always say 00:58:17.540 --> 00:58:21.140 our dreams are what leads to our fears. 00:58:23.220 --> 00:58:32.260 And sometimes you need to dream bigger to, to get past the fear, right? Sometimes we dream and we're 00:58:32.260 --> 00:58:38.580 fearful because at the end of the dream, the boundaries of what we dream is a fearful ending. 00:58:38.580 --> 00:58:43.220 And yet sometimes I say we need to dream bigger to go beyond that because be right beyond that 00:58:44.020 --> 00:58:48.260 is something as much hopeful and that we're just not, we're not looking up. 00:58:50.660 --> 00:58:53.700 You got to admit there's some irony though. You just said to dream bigger, 00:58:53.700 --> 00:58:57.380 maybe five minutes after you said that AI can read our dreams. 00:58:57.380 --> 00:58:57.940 Yes. 00:58:57.940 --> 00:59:03.460 Um, and, and I was really enthralled with the fact that AI is not bacon and now, you know, it's, 00:59:03.460 --> 00:59:08.180 it's better than me and it's going to take over the world. Uh, but no, I, I do, I do respect the 00:59:08.180 --> 00:59:13.860 point. Um, and, and, and, and I, and I love the, the sentiment, you know, historically God's had his 00:59:13.860 --> 00:59:18.580 church. Uh, and so we've, we've gone through seasons where we as humans have screwed it up. 00:59:18.580 --> 00:59:26.180 Uh, but God is the same yesterday, today and forever. And, you know, two, 2000 years, uh, 00:59:26.180 --> 00:59:33.380 worth of history has not brought an end to his church. Uh, and Christ is still, um, reigning ruler. 00:59:33.780 --> 00:59:40.420 And so as of that, you know, we, we put our hope and faith and trust in him, uh, and, and hope that, 00:59:40.420 --> 00:59:47.700 uh, that reigns true as the robotic overlords. No, I'm kidding. Kind of, maybe I'm not, I'm not 00:59:47.700 --> 00:59:51.860 actually sure. I may be a little down right now. I'm a little fearful. I got to dream bigger. 00:59:51.860 --> 00:59:58.100 Yeah. I think it's this, it's what we're doing right now. Right. I think it's not being, um, 00:59:58.100 --> 01:00:05.620 able to, um, don't let yourself succumb to the echo chambers and that things are better in community. 01:00:05.620 --> 01:00:11.780 And the more discussions and conversations we have about these things is the path forward. We might 01:00:11.780 --> 01:00:17.540 know, we might not see the answer and what the next step should be, but the more we actually come 01:00:17.540 --> 01:00:23.540 together as a community, the better we'll see in terms of having a vision for what's next and how we 01:00:23.540 --> 01:00:30.100 should respond. Yeah. So good. So good. Kenny, we got to really overcome this whole conference 01:00:30.100 --> 01:00:35.540 roulette thing and figure out how to be in the room at the same time. Absolutely. I, I love spending 01:00:35.540 --> 01:00:41.540 time with you. It's been such a good conversation. AGI, AI is not bacon. Like this has just been 01:00:41.540 --> 01:00:46.340 inspiring from, from top to bottom. I hope this has been good for, for the audience out there. 01:00:46.340 --> 01:00:50.420 And, and we're going to, we're going to have you on again, digging into this, this conversation 01:00:50.420 --> 01:00:55.860 centered around AI. Cause I just, I mean, I love spending time with this has been a lot of fun, 01:00:55.860 --> 01:00:58.980 but Hey, you know what, as we're, as we're landing the plane here in man, any closing thoughts? 01:01:00.580 --> 01:01:06.660 Um, you know, again, I, I feel like the number one, um, the number one thing that's needed in the 01:01:06.660 --> 01:01:10.740 church right now is more conversation. You don't need to be the expert. You just need to be the one 01:01:10.740 --> 01:01:17.620 that is willing to talk about it. And so whether it's a team huddle, a lunch and learn a conversation 01:01:17.620 --> 01:01:22.340 in your small group, you just need to talk about it more and more. And then the second thing I would 01:01:22.340 --> 01:01:28.980 say is don't be, don't be the majority, the 86% that have not tried Chachapiti yet. 01:01:29.780 --> 01:01:36.340 Right. It's, it's easy to be a critic without actually trying it out. Um, you actually have to 01:01:36.340 --> 01:01:42.900 try it out to have any validity and to have any formation of thought that's responsible. 01:01:42.900 --> 01:01:48.580 And so I would just say, try it out. Um, start by asking some questions, um, any question. 01:01:49.220 --> 01:01:54.100 Um, and so that that's, those are the two recommendations I have the parting thoughts of today. 01:01:54.980 --> 01:01:58.660 Awesome. Love it. And so you can, Kenny, if they want to get in touch with you, 01:01:59.540 --> 01:02:01.620 like what's, what's the best way to connect? 01:02:01.620 --> 01:02:09.060 Um, um, I'm, I'm searchable. You can look me up anywhere. Um, I think probably the, the place that 01:02:09.060 --> 01:02:14.740 you, you can find me the, the most these days is in our Facebook group. We got a Facebook group of 01:02:14.740 --> 01:02:22.420 over 5,000 leaders. It's called AI for church leaders. Um, it's been an amazing place where 01:02:22.420 --> 01:02:27.940 everyone's trading notes and sharing questions and answers with each other. Um, and then AI for 01:02:27.940 --> 01:02:34.820 church leaders.com. It's a training library that we are building incrementally, um, case studies, 01:02:34.820 --> 01:02:39.220 real examples from real pastors and church staff and leaders of how they're using AI. 01:02:39.780 --> 01:02:45.540 And there's a free ebook. There's a free tools report. There's tons of, um, free resources there 01:02:45.540 --> 01:02:49.620 for everybody. So, um, I would say those are two places that you might want to check out next. 01:02:49.620 --> 01:02:55.940 Awesome. AI for church leaders, Facebook group, AI for church leaders.com. Not to be confused with 01:02:55.940 --> 01:03:01.140 Al for church leaders.com. When you type it, you'll understand it's the joke. Uh, but no, 01:03:01.140 --> 01:03:05.140 this is, this is great. Kenny, man, thanks for jumping into the, the, the conversation here, 01:03:05.140 --> 01:03:09.140 but we're going to land the plane for Kenny. This is Jeff with the church digital. Uh, 01:03:09.140 --> 01:03:13.140 thanks for jumping here on, on the podcast. We'll see you next time on the show. Y'all have a good day. 01:03:19.620 --> 01:03:27.460 Bye.