WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:05.620 Welcome to the church digital podcast. Through this podcast, we'll talk about the technological 00:00:05.620 --> 00:00:10.420 innovations within the church, but more than tech for tech itself, we'll address deeper 00:00:10.420 --> 00:00:15.320 questions. Is disciple making possible digitally? How should we approach the digital mission 00:00:15.320 --> 00:00:20.200 field? Can a biblically grounded church operate in digital space? Oh, and where does the metaverse 00:00:20.200 --> 00:00:25.760 and artificial intelligence fit into all of this? Whether you're a big or small church, 00:00:25.760 --> 00:00:31.140 an established church, or a startup church plant, the church digital's goal is to help churches like 00:00:31.140 --> 00:00:37.920 yours learn to be a multiplying church digitally and physically. Our heart? The churches like yours 00:00:37.920 --> 00:00:42.580 would discover a new founded focus on disciple making that will revolutionize your church. 00:00:43.440 --> 00:00:50.600 And now here's your host, Jeff Reed. All right, we got episode 280 of the church digital podcast, 00:00:50.600 --> 00:00:59.260 Jeff Reed here. And I am looking forward to sharing this conversation with you. Over the past six 00:00:59.260 --> 00:01:06.440 months, I had a break, a sabbatical arrest. I went on an extended vacation dealing with my own mental 00:01:06.440 --> 00:01:14.120 crash. And as a result of that, and some of the extenuating circumstances around it, the idea of 00:01:14.120 --> 00:01:22.300 mental health has become very important to me as an individual. And let's just be honest, as digital pastors, 00:01:22.300 --> 00:01:30.300 as people doing digital ministry and digital and virtual spaces, we run into a lot of situations, 00:01:30.820 --> 00:01:35.580 especially if we're relational, especially if we're conversational, especially if we listen to people. 00:01:35.580 --> 00:01:42.560 We run into a lot of situations of people that are dealing with high issues with trauma, high issues 00:01:42.560 --> 00:01:51.000 with crisis. We deal with a lot of mental health issues. And rather than running from the situations, 00:01:51.120 --> 00:01:57.060 rather than hiding from the situations, rather than ignoring those situations, I think we, the church, 00:01:57.120 --> 00:02:05.260 we need to understand how to respond, how to help, how to do what God is calling us to do 00:02:05.260 --> 00:02:11.800 in those situations and sticking our head in the sand. Well, pre-COVID, that may have been the answer 00:02:11.800 --> 00:02:19.380 or a viable option, but 2024, I just, I don't think we can get away with it anymore. So here's what we're 00:02:19.380 --> 00:02:23.460 doing. We do what we do here with the Church Digital Podcast. We have a conversation about it. We bring in 00:02:23.460 --> 00:02:29.220 some experts, we bring in some people who have wisdom in that space, and we learn from them. We gain 00:02:29.220 --> 00:02:36.240 insights from their experience in physical and digital ministry, and we learn how to apply it to 00:02:36.240 --> 00:02:44.020 what we are doing at our different physical, digital, digital, virtual churches around the world. 00:02:44.600 --> 00:02:49.200 So here's who we're bringing into the conversation. We're bringing in Megan Carter. Now, Megan is no, 00:02:51.180 --> 00:02:57.560 she's no stranger here to the podcast. She's been on quite a bit, and she is doing a ton of incredible 00:02:57.560 --> 00:03:04.200 work at her church, First Capital Christian Church, Church Anywhere. Tyler Sansom's lead pastor over 00:03:04.200 --> 00:03:09.980 there. Many of you know Tyler. Megan is Next Steps pastor, which deals with assimilation and next 00:03:09.980 --> 00:03:14.900 steps, and that's nice. But a lot of what we're bringing Megan in for is her wealth of information 00:03:14.900 --> 00:03:21.220 on dealing with trauma. Megan has been getting certified by the American Association of Christian 00:03:21.220 --> 00:03:26.240 Counselors, AACC, Light University. We'll put some information in the show notes about that. You can 00:03:26.240 --> 00:03:36.360 dig into that. But Megan is becoming very well-versed when it comes to handling trauma and mental health 00:03:36.360 --> 00:03:43.300 issues that are popping up in digital ministry. But also bringing into the conversation, in addition to 00:03:43.300 --> 00:03:50.480 Megan, we are bringing in Stacey Knapp. And so Stacey is a chaplain, and she does a lot of work 00:03:50.480 --> 00:03:57.260 digitally connecting with people that are going through crisis. Now, the first question you're 00:03:57.260 --> 00:04:05.360 asking is, what's the difference between crisis and trauma? That's a great question. One that I 00:04:05.360 --> 00:04:08.700 didn't know the answer to until we did this conversation, this podcast. So here's what we're 00:04:08.700 --> 00:04:11.440 doing. We're having that conversation, trauma, crisis, and digital ministry. 00:04:13.240 --> 00:04:19.340 I'm Megan Carter. I work at First Capital Christian Church slash church anywhere. It's kind of all our 00:04:19.340 --> 00:04:26.420 online pieces. And I am the next steps pastor here, which doesn't tell you a lot about what I do, 00:04:26.500 --> 00:04:33.320 but I do anything that involves whatever people's next steps are. I've had about five different roles 00:04:33.320 --> 00:04:38.240 at the church. And this one has been the sweet spot. And it's been really exciting because I get to work 00:04:38.240 --> 00:04:44.840 digitally and in person, which is so much fun to be able to do both and work in ministry in different 00:04:44.840 --> 00:04:52.160 areas. And they are similar in some spaces and different in other ways. And then also, I am a 00:04:52.160 --> 00:04:58.400 board certified mental health coach through with the AACC. And that's been a really cool process to work 00:04:58.400 --> 00:05:06.160 through. And then I'm working on my biblical counseling program this year. So that's an exciting 00:05:06.160 --> 00:05:11.340 thing of just being able to help and care for people. A little bit more knowledge behind that 00:05:11.340 --> 00:05:15.540 too. So that's a big piece about me. I'm a mom of two kids and I'm a wife. 00:05:17.280 --> 00:05:20.520 I didn't realize you were working on your biblical counseling program. 00:05:20.760 --> 00:05:25.660 I am. Yeah. I'm excited about 90 hours. I think I've got three of them done. 00:05:26.480 --> 00:05:29.560 Oh my. A few more. 00:05:30.560 --> 00:05:33.540 Do you have like a timer or a countdown or something like that? 00:05:33.760 --> 00:05:34.260 Oh my gosh. 00:05:34.460 --> 00:05:35.120 Pretty much. Yeah. 00:05:36.300 --> 00:05:40.180 That's brutal. You're going to do 90 hours in one year? Is that my understanding? 00:05:40.280 --> 00:05:47.380 Yeah. Well, it's like 90 technical hours. So like each class is an hour long test afterwards 00:05:47.380 --> 00:05:49.980 and then you can move on. Yeah. 00:05:50.140 --> 00:05:52.520 Oh, just simple. Just like that. I'm fine. Simple. 00:05:54.340 --> 00:05:58.820 Good for you. Okay. And there's a lot to talk about AACC. We're going to get into it. But 00:05:58.820 --> 00:06:00.360 Stacey, why don't you tell us a little bit about it? 00:06:00.360 --> 00:06:09.000 Hey, yeah. I'm out of Phoenix, Arizona currently. And I serve as a chaplain in local 00:06:09.000 --> 00:06:17.220 employers' workspaces, but also a lot of my work is grief, companionship in the digital space, 00:06:17.380 --> 00:06:24.420 whether it's Facebook Messenger, text messages, different types through Zoom, video chats, 00:06:25.040 --> 00:06:33.140 and also in pastoral staff for Imagine Church, which is a pretty much strictly digital church, 00:06:33.140 --> 00:06:40.980 started in 2017 when they wanted to, their heart was to serve people that for whatever reason in life, 00:06:40.980 --> 00:06:47.620 that they're not able to actually attend church in person on the weekends. And I have a soapbox about 00:06:47.620 --> 00:06:58.000 that, why we have to exist. And so we just are open to anyone and everyone, physical challenges, 00:06:58.000 --> 00:07:06.880 mental challenges, social challenges, or caregivers, or people who just work on the weekends. So I really 00:07:06.880 --> 00:07:15.360 value that. And my heart is to be a chaplain and mainly to be present with people in their pain and 00:07:15.360 --> 00:07:21.920 loss, whatever that is, loss of a loved one, loss of friendship, loss of a pet, transitions. There's 00:07:21.920 --> 00:07:29.520 losses and good things. There's even losses. And so I just come alongside them. I don't diagnose and I 00:07:29.520 --> 00:07:36.800 don't come up with a treatment plan for people, but I just come alongside and together with the person, 00:07:36.800 --> 00:07:44.400 we form a care plan for them in their grief. And thanks so much, Jeff. Appreciate your 00:07:44.960 --> 00:07:46.960 inviting me to this conversation. 00:07:47.760 --> 00:07:50.880 Yes, this is, this is going to be, I keep saying the word interesting. It's going to be an interesting 00:07:50.880 --> 00:07:55.120 conversation, um, right up here at the top. And I said this in the introduction, like I, 00:07:55.840 --> 00:08:02.800 I don't know a lot about mental health and, and, and already in, in this conversation, we're using words 00:08:02.800 --> 00:08:08.400 like trauma. We're using words like crisis. We're using words like, uh, counseling. We're using, uh, 00:08:08.400 --> 00:08:14.000 chaplaincy. Like there's, there's some interesting words that really, you know, for someone that's in, 00:08:14.000 --> 00:08:20.240 in ministry, we don't, we don't often talk about this, uh, you know, on the church side of the 00:08:20.240 --> 00:08:26.800 equation. Um, yet, you know, my experience in digital ministry, there's so much need and so much 00:08:26.800 --> 00:08:30.960 opportunity with people that have gone through trauma or people that are, that are dealing with, 00:08:30.960 --> 00:08:37.760 with crisis. And so I don't know, you know, in 2024, it just seems to me, uh, that we need to be 00:08:37.760 --> 00:08:42.240 more aware of this as, as ministers and pastors in digital and virtual spaces. 00:08:42.240 --> 00:08:46.960 Yeah. Um, how, how big of a deal should mental health be in, in digital ministry? 00:08:48.320 --> 00:08:50.800 Go on, Megan, go girl, go on. 00:08:50.800 --> 00:08:57.520 I'm very passionate about that. Uh, yeah, it should be huge. It's, it's something we all deal with. Um, 00:08:57.520 --> 00:09:02.160 we all deal with some form of mental health, whether that's, um, dealing with just grief, 00:09:02.160 --> 00:09:07.120 uh, daily things that happen in your life or a loss of a loved one, or if it has to 00:09:07.120 --> 00:09:12.960 deal with like bigger things, like a traumatic experience and everything in between. Um, 00:09:12.960 --> 00:09:18.000 we all deal with something. There's a phrase that, um, I think kind of gets passed around our staff, 00:09:18.000 --> 00:09:23.360 but it's like, no one gets a pass. Literally. That's the truth. Like no one gets a pass in life. 00:09:23.360 --> 00:09:28.560 There's always something. So it's like mental health always been there. Um, we just don't always talk 00:09:28.560 --> 00:09:33.600 about it. And we should, because it's a, it's a big part of who we are, even as Christ followers. 00:09:34.400 --> 00:09:39.040 Um, that's a piece of us where mentally and physically and spiritually and emotionally and 00:09:39.040 --> 00:09:43.840 relationally, all those things create a whole person. Um, so it's something we definitely need 00:09:43.840 --> 00:09:44.480 to talk about. 00:09:44.480 --> 00:09:49.920 Yeah. There's tons of examples in scriptures throughout people struggling with their mental 00:09:49.920 --> 00:09:57.280 health. I mean, on and on the expression of it, uh, Psalms. I mean, I, it just, even with, 00:09:57.280 --> 00:10:03.600 there's a book called Lamentations, you know, I, I, I cracked up at how, how much there's a whole 00:10:03.600 --> 00:10:11.360 book called Lamentations. And yet, um, it's that value doesn't seem to be reflected in the local church 00:10:11.360 --> 00:10:14.480 as much as it's reflected in scriptures. 00:10:14.480 --> 00:10:17.760 Well, let's do this. Let's go ahead and put some definitions on some of these words. 00:10:17.760 --> 00:10:23.360 Um, and so, you know, let's, let's start with, uh, with trauma and then, and then crisis. But so trauma, 00:10:23.360 --> 00:10:29.120 uh, Megan, why, why don't you help us here? Like help us define what, what exactly trauma is. 00:10:29.120 --> 00:10:35.200 Yeah. So trauma, I wrote this down so I wouldn't get it wrong because I could give you my definition, 00:10:35.200 --> 00:10:42.000 but this will be a lot more simple. So trauma is an emotional state of discomfort and stress 00:10:42.000 --> 00:10:48.400 resulting from memories of an extraordinary catastrophic experience, which shattered the 00:10:48.400 --> 00:10:57.360 survivor's sense of invul, vulnerability to harm. So basically all that said sounds really pretty. Um, 00:10:57.360 --> 00:11:02.640 but trauma is just, it's our perception. Um, what our perception is, is our truth. 00:11:02.640 --> 00:11:08.160 So whatever that may be, however, we experienced a situation, whether it's big or 00:11:09.120 --> 00:11:15.200 many little things is how we perceived as truth. Um, even though it may not seem like 00:11:15.200 --> 00:11:18.480 that to everyone on the outside. So it's very specific to an individual. 00:11:18.480 --> 00:11:22.960 So in digital ministry, what, what is, what does trauma look like? What are some, 00:11:24.640 --> 00:11:29.280 someone who's going through trauma and digital, like, is, do you have an example or something that 00:11:29.280 --> 00:11:34.000 you could share about how, uh, Trump, how someone would deal with trauma? 00:11:34.880 --> 00:11:38.880 I mean, that's, I mean, a lot of people do. I think it's like 00:11:39.760 --> 00:11:47.840 50% of humans like we'll deal with trauma in some way, shape or form, which is huge. Um, 00:11:48.400 --> 00:11:55.440 and that it's a variety of things, um, a lot of different pieces and, and it works the same 00:11:55.440 --> 00:12:02.080 in person as online with like the way we experience things. Everybody again experiences them individually, 00:12:02.080 --> 00:12:11.520 but you have violence, you have, you know, bullying online, um, abuse. There's physical illnesses or 00:12:11.520 --> 00:12:19.760 injuries, um, abandonment issues, death of loved one can have like childhood neglect and then natural 00:12:19.760 --> 00:12:23.840 and then man-made disasters are some of the big ones that people face with. 00:12:24.560 --> 00:12:31.680 So, so trauma is more, uh, I guess ongoing where it's, it's just the, the, the state of mind. 00:12:32.080 --> 00:12:36.960 Uh, it's an environment that, that you're a part of. Um, and then there's, then there's crisis. 00:12:36.960 --> 00:12:41.680 Stacey, dig into us a little bit. Yeah. When, when it comes to chaplaincy work, uh, 00:12:41.680 --> 00:12:49.200 we, we meet people where they are in that moment. So it's a crisis moment, typically sudden event. 00:12:49.920 --> 00:12:56.480 And, uh, I would say, and particularly same with trauma is that it's similar in the fact that it is 00:12:56.480 --> 00:13:02.000 different for each person. So even though we may have experienced the same event, 00:13:02.000 --> 00:13:11.760 it may not be a crisis to you, but it's a crisis to me. And so with chaplaincy work, we are the 00:13:12.320 --> 00:13:19.120 somewhat of the first responders in that, in a crisis situation. So maybe disaster relief or 00:13:19.120 --> 00:13:25.920 someone calls to say, I, I'm having a hard time. Okay, great. So let's relieve some of the pressure 00:13:25.920 --> 00:13:32.720 right now by just sharing and talking it through, uh, with me. But if it's long term, then we're, 00:13:32.720 --> 00:13:39.360 we're going to send you over to Megan or we'll send it to someone else that, uh, will come up with and 00:13:39.920 --> 00:13:48.880 maybe come up with a treatment plan ongoing or to work through that, uh, together. Um, like I said, crisis is 00:13:50.400 --> 00:13:57.280 almost like a, uh, almost like a, uh, surprise event and you have a emotional response to emotional, 00:13:57.280 --> 00:14:05.280 mental, spiritual response to it. And chaplains work in that capacity. Uh, not, not, um, I mean, 00:14:05.280 --> 00:14:12.640 there's chaplains who are also, you know, therapists and counselors, but it really depends on, uh, 00:14:12.640 --> 00:14:19.280 the time it happens and then treatment or care ongoing. I'm curious, Stacy with the, with the 00:14:19.280 --> 00:14:26.080 chaplaincy and your, your background in that your work with, uh, imagine church. Do you see, 00:14:26.080 --> 00:14:31.680 um, like, are there parts where that chaplaincy characteristics or lessons that you're learning 00:14:31.680 --> 00:14:38.360 that, that it carries over into? Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. I think there's not, I think I've 00:14:38.360 --> 00:14:44.600 experienced when, you know, we get to know each other pretty well because we are in zoom communities 00:14:44.600 --> 00:14:51.080 in our church. So it's kind of small group feel intimacy, uh, but with the framework of sermons 00:14:51.080 --> 00:14:57.640 and there's music worship and for us to sing. But, um, yeah, when there's a crisis response, 00:14:57.640 --> 00:15:04.120 someone will say they're having a hard time with fill in the blank, whatever, whatever it is. And for me, 00:15:04.120 --> 00:15:10.840 because of my training in chaplaincy work that I have steps in my head, you know, I'd like, 00:15:10.840 --> 00:15:17.800 okay, let's ask this question. But also I would say also in my, uh, spiritual support and pastoral 00:15:17.800 --> 00:15:24.360 care, uh, you kind of, I kind of marries both of them because I have a relationship with them. Uh, 00:15:24.360 --> 00:15:28.440 most, most of the time I have a relationship with the person already. So there's already trust 00:15:28.440 --> 00:15:36.840 established and also, uh, in chaplains, we'd say we have our, our, uh, list of resources and allies. 00:15:37.080 --> 00:15:45.880 So it's have these tools in our tool belt to say, okay, I'm going to help you in this crisis right now. 00:15:46.440 --> 00:15:54.280 Uh, and, and here's some other resources, trusted resources that I know and have vetted myself that 00:15:54.280 --> 00:16:00.920 you might want to reach out to, uh, because we don't, we're, we don't have a counselor on staff. 00:16:00.920 --> 00:16:06.760 We don't have a therapist on staff, but I know people that can help. And, um, it's just bumping 00:16:06.760 --> 00:16:12.120 them up. We say bumping them up to the next level of care. Um, again, that would be a crisis situation 00:16:12.520 --> 00:16:17.720 and bumping them up to the next level of care would be perhaps there's trauma underneath all of that, 00:16:18.360 --> 00:16:23.080 that maybe they need to work through and have someone, uh, guide them through that. 00:16:23.080 --> 00:16:28.520 Megan, what stories do you have of, of, of dealing with trauma, um, with, within the work that you're 00:16:28.520 --> 00:16:34.760 doing with, with first capital, uh, in the church anywhere? Yeah. Um, I would say, and it kind of 00:16:34.760 --> 00:16:39.480 ties to what Stacy was just saying too. Like typically the person doesn't just come out and be like, 00:16:39.480 --> 00:16:46.360 I'm dealing with trauma. Like that's not, um, unless they've been diagnosed and then they're 00:16:46.360 --> 00:16:50.520 probably seeing a professional, like a mental health professional, and then they're probably on a good 00:16:50.520 --> 00:16:55.720 path of treatment, but they don't typically come out and say it. And I think of one instance of, 00:16:56.440 --> 00:17:03.560 um, I was talking to a person online, um, and we were talking about just little issues and things 00:17:03.560 --> 00:17:08.840 that they were going through. And, um, this person was local. And so I was actually able to meet them 00:17:08.840 --> 00:17:14.360 up in person here at the church, which was really cool. Um, and then get to talk a little deeper, um, 00:17:14.360 --> 00:17:20.440 into some things and found out that there was trauma lying underneath that. So we were able 00:17:20.440 --> 00:17:26.200 to address that. And once we could address it and they started to recognize it, it made that 00:17:27.080 --> 00:17:33.160 just go so much smoother of like recognizing why they're reacting to certain situations like today 00:17:33.960 --> 00:17:39.080 because of things from their past memories, things that are continued being stirred up. 00:17:39.080 --> 00:17:43.800 And so that was a way to kind of work through them. Um, there's been a lot of times that we've had to 00:17:43.800 --> 00:17:50.360 just like Stacy was saying, refer people out to other professionals, because again, I'm right now 00:17:50.360 --> 00:17:55.640 a mental health coach. And that's really just guiding people along, um, to figure out where 00:17:55.640 --> 00:18:01.960 the next step needs to be. And so we will refer them to people who can do a lot more. Um, we have 00:18:01.960 --> 00:18:08.520 a lady who works out of our church. Um, she has an office space and she is trained in trauma. Um, 00:18:08.520 --> 00:18:13.080 she deals a lot with first responders. And so I've learned a lot from her through that too, 00:18:13.080 --> 00:18:18.760 but just being able to recognize how, you know, things that people say, little things that they're 00:18:18.760 --> 00:18:24.600 like, well, I'm not sleeping well, or different things that are just causing that trauma to really 00:18:24.600 --> 00:18:29.960 increase and watching that and then giving them the best treatment and helping them find maybe the 00:18:29.960 --> 00:18:31.800 best treatment through someone else as well. 00:18:31.800 --> 00:18:38.760 Is, does how, and it's interesting, uh, Megan, you are, um, I mean, you're first capital church 00:18:38.760 --> 00:18:46.680 anywhere. It's hybrid, physical and digital. Um, is, so does how you handle, you know, some of these, 00:18:46.680 --> 00:18:53.800 um, trauma situations, how you minister, how you do ministry, does it differ between physical and 00:18:53.800 --> 00:18:59.000 digital? Like how you, you treat someone or how you address someone that's going through a traumatic 00:18:59.000 --> 00:19:06.040 situation? Yeah, it, it is different in a sense, because when you sit across from a person, 00:19:06.040 --> 00:19:13.080 there is just a different sense of feeling what they're feeling, being able to emotionally connect 00:19:13.080 --> 00:19:18.440 with them because you're face to face. Um, but we have had people connect and do that through zoom. 00:19:18.440 --> 00:19:27.960 Um, it's a lot more difficult just because you only get so much through a computer. Um, but as long as 00:19:27.960 --> 00:19:35.240 you're really actively listening, which is a key point of listening to what they're saying and 00:19:35.240 --> 00:19:41.800 even what they're not saying sometimes, um, picking up on those things. And then even like verbally 00:19:41.800 --> 00:19:47.800 listening of repeating back what they say so that the person on the other end is understanding that 00:19:47.800 --> 00:19:54.120 you're getting their point of view, because it's more about the facts that they're laying out and their 00:19:54.120 --> 00:20:01.000 story than like just the overall arching facts of, well, this happened, this happened, this happened, 00:20:01.000 --> 00:20:07.080 but this happened, which made them feel this way, which caused this thing to happen. And so that's 00:20:07.080 --> 00:20:12.520 really when you start to get into the weeds of like finding the, the root of all the issues that 00:20:12.520 --> 00:20:14.040 they're kind of having at that moment. 00:20:14.040 --> 00:20:21.080 : It's interesting. I mean, we could maybe drill in on the, the percentage of loss between physical 00:20:21.080 --> 00:20:27.320 versus the zoom and how much of it gets lost or not. Um, another day, not today, but Stacy, 00:20:27.320 --> 00:20:31.240 do you, do you agree with that? Do you feel like it's, there's a, there's a loss between the two? 00:20:31.240 --> 00:20:34.600 Cause I know you guys spend a lot of time and imagine on zoom. 00:20:34.600 --> 00:20:39.880 : I agree. Yeah, there is a difference. I mean, I, there, we had a recent situation, 00:20:39.880 --> 00:20:45.640 which I actually reached out to Megan to get some, some, uh, advice and, you know, share, 00:20:45.640 --> 00:20:51.160 I wanted to know her experience about serving someone. Now, most recent, there was a very much 00:20:51.160 --> 00:20:57.880 a crisis situation, but that person lived less than 10 miles from me. So I gave them the emergency 00:20:57.880 --> 00:21:04.200 hotline information and then jumped in my car and went to go see her. I am not able to do that. 00:21:04.600 --> 00:21:13.640 : We, for the 95% of our church that don't live in Phoenix. So, um, uh, having it in person though, 00:21:13.640 --> 00:21:23.720 was, was really helpful. Uh, and because we only see this part of someone at church, we don't see the rest 00:21:23.720 --> 00:21:30.680 of them. We kind of, kind of reminds me of, uh, you know, in the news anchor people, you know, they have 00:21:30.680 --> 00:21:36.200 this, and then they've got like tatted up jeans below, but they have like a suit jacket and a, and 00:21:36.200 --> 00:21:43.080 a top on, you know, kind of thing. And I feel like we do not, we just don't have all our senses 00:21:43.800 --> 00:21:49.960 activated when it's online. Unlike in person, we could see how the person's walking. We can see how 00:21:49.960 --> 00:21:56.760 the person is responding to different situations when, you know, are they scared when someone quickly 00:21:56.760 --> 00:22:04.120 walks by, you know, those kinds of things we do not have a gauge on. And Megan so eloquently shared with 00:22:04.120 --> 00:22:10.760 me, she said, remember though, we don't catch everything in person either. And so that was 00:22:10.760 --> 00:22:18.680 really encouraging to me because I felt like we were losing, uh, um, being present with people in their 00:22:18.680 --> 00:22:25.720 their crisis because we just didn't know, you know, we can't, we can't smell you. We don't know 00:22:25.720 --> 00:22:33.160 approximately how many days have you not showered. Uh, you know, just little things that I feel like 00:22:33.160 --> 00:22:40.600 we're missing, uh, being in digital space only, even with that, like, you know, we kind of, 00:22:40.600 --> 00:22:44.840 it felt like we were kind of being like, well, digital, you can't do as much like ministry with 00:22:44.840 --> 00:22:50.520 mental health. But like, if that's the only option and that's the only way somebody is going to get 00:22:50.520 --> 00:22:55.560 connected to it, you're going to do so much more. You don't know, you know, sometimes we don't 00:22:55.560 --> 00:23:01.080 necessarily know their issues or what's going on and what they're struggling with. And they may have 00:23:01.080 --> 00:23:06.040 social anxiety. So walking into a building or walking into a place they're not going to do, 00:23:06.040 --> 00:23:11.480 but to turn on a computer screen and sit there and not have to be like, well, they don't see me 00:23:11.480 --> 00:23:16.120 fidgety and they don't see this and that, but they're able to open up. That's going to mean so 00:23:16.120 --> 00:23:21.080 much more than just, you know, there's definitely things we can do, but you just have to, you have 00:23:21.080 --> 00:23:26.360 to learn a little different. It's kind of like online, you learn a different culture. You're learning a 00:23:26.360 --> 00:23:32.200 different way to do that ministry. Yeah, that's good. That's a good reminder. Cause I, I honestly 00:23:32.200 --> 00:23:36.760 think that I don't think she would have showed this person would have shared that type of struggle, 00:23:36.760 --> 00:23:45.240 crisis situation in person, uh, unless she really had the intimate setting that we have, 00:23:46.120 --> 00:23:50.760 um, getting to know one another every week, staying in contact through the week. 00:23:50.760 --> 00:23:57.400 We have in-app text message or in-app messaging in our church app. So we're, we're staying in touch 00:23:57.400 --> 00:24:02.680 during the week that it's not just Sunday to Sunday, but it's in between following up. 00:24:03.320 --> 00:24:07.400 There's some accountability in there too. Cause if you share that you're struggling with something 00:24:07.400 --> 00:24:13.000 and you're asking for some care, then we're going to say, Oh, there you go. Yes. We're going to pray 00:24:13.000 --> 00:24:17.640 for you. Hey, I'm going to check in. We're going to, let's stay connected in the app. We're going to 00:24:17.640 --> 00:24:24.280 check in. So keep, keep those notifications on or, you know, to respond, you know, respond, 00:24:24.280 --> 00:24:30.040 because if you don't respond, you know, within, you know, within a few days, we'll be concerned. 00:24:30.040 --> 00:24:35.560 What's an example of like a, a tell? Cause we said earlier, they don't come out and say, Hey, 00:24:35.560 --> 00:24:40.840 I'm going through a traumatic situation. Oftentimes there, uh, there's, there's physical tells and 00:24:40.840 --> 00:24:46.760 triggers that you, you would see or an online, if it's within the frame, like what, what are some 00:24:46.760 --> 00:24:51.800 things that, that help us realize, Oh, there, there's something going on deeper here. There's, 00:24:51.800 --> 00:24:55.800 there's something beneath the surface that we need to explore. I would say a big one 00:24:55.800 --> 00:25:02.760 is like almost numbness, like that emotional flatness. Like they don't really show any 00:25:02.760 --> 00:25:07.480 expression and that's, it would be harder. Cause I know we do a lot of things with texting too, 00:25:07.480 --> 00:25:14.280 and you can't gauge somebody's emotion through texting, but you can pick up on something. So if 00:25:14.280 --> 00:25:19.400 you can tell if somebody is kind of feeling maybe more depressed, um, and that's out of character 00:25:19.400 --> 00:25:25.160 or dealing with a heightened anxiety, um, insomnia is a huge one. So if they're texting 00:25:25.160 --> 00:25:30.040 you at all hours of the day and night, they're probably not sleeping. So that's a good kind of 00:25:30.040 --> 00:25:37.160 to check on that. Um, and attention, attention deficit, uh, problems is a huge one where they can't just 00:25:37.160 --> 00:25:43.240 focus in on one thing and they start going everywhere else. Those are kind of like maybe the big common 00:25:43.240 --> 00:25:49.000 ones, but each area, like your emotional behavioral and spiritual and relational will have different 00:25:49.000 --> 00:25:55.560 ones. Then you could go through a huge list of those different things, which kind of filter into 00:25:55.560 --> 00:26:01.960 other mental health areas too. So you can kind of look through that list and, and we'll go through 00:26:01.960 --> 00:26:05.960 that and think through the person, like what they've been saying. And you can start to see like, 00:26:05.960 --> 00:26:10.120 if there is more trauma there or if there's another issue. 00:26:10.120 --> 00:26:16.360 Yeah. I would echo that, but you know, the trends, like the trends, there's someone that comes every 00:26:16.920 --> 00:26:22.280 single week and then, then it becomes sporadic, you know, they're like, okay, 00:26:22.280 --> 00:26:29.720 something's going on this, what this person's not saying or sharing. Um, but I think that there's, 00:26:29.720 --> 00:26:36.360 but that takes attentiveness, you know, on our part and being aware of that and, you know, 00:26:36.360 --> 00:26:43.000 or maybe someone's not sharing like they used to share. Uh, that's something, uh, framed within our 00:26:43.000 --> 00:26:47.800 sermons are what we call community time and their discussion questions that have to do with the 00:26:47.800 --> 00:26:54.200 sermon. So, you know, we know the talkative ones, right? And, uh, if that person's not talkative, 00:26:54.200 --> 00:26:59.080 then that's kind of like, uh, alerts in your head, like what's going on with that person? 00:26:59.800 --> 00:27:05.480 How come they're not talking so much? They're not sharing as much. So, um, yeah, I think that's, 00:27:05.480 --> 00:27:11.400 that's, I would say that's probably one of the bigger ones for us within our context. 00:27:12.120 --> 00:27:18.520 Okay. So we, we find someone that's going through a traumatic situation. We figured this out, um, 00:27:18.520 --> 00:27:25.160 via zoom, we figured this out via texting or, or, you know, chat room conversation, something there, 00:27:25.160 --> 00:27:30.280 there's some trigger that's, that's obvious, um, where they're, they're going through a difficult 00:27:30.280 --> 00:27:40.280 situation. Like as, as ministers, as pastors, what, what are we supposed to do? Like, are we, uh, 00:27:40.280 --> 00:27:45.080 downplaying the trauma? Oh, it's not, not a big deal. Are we trying to solve the situation for them? 00:27:45.480 --> 00:27:52.280 Tell them we're praying for them. Like what's the goal, uh, for us helping someone or ministering 00:27:52.280 --> 00:27:55.000 to someone that's going through a traumatic situation? 00:27:55.000 --> 00:28:02.280 The very first thing I think of, and my professors will be so excited because is first do no harm. Um, 00:28:02.680 --> 00:28:08.840 that's literally the first thing they teach us, do no harm. So it's shifting the focus from asking 00:28:08.840 --> 00:28:15.240 them like, well, what's wrong with you is to what happened to you. And that changes how they're going 00:28:15.240 --> 00:28:21.000 to respond because they're not going to put up a wall that thinking like if there's shame attached to it, 00:28:21.000 --> 00:28:25.480 even like thinking that it's a, I didn't like identity piece, like, well, there's something 00:28:25.480 --> 00:28:29.800 wrong with me. So, you know, what is wrong with me? And then they start going down a different path, 00:28:29.800 --> 00:28:36.520 but asking them what happened to you and walking through that. Um, and then the other piece that 00:28:36.520 --> 00:28:42.840 I think of a lot is like getting into somebody else's perspective. Um, so thinking with that trauma 00:28:42.840 --> 00:28:50.920 informed mindset, um, even if it doesn't make sense to you, if even it's like little things that happened 00:28:50.920 --> 00:28:57.320 over time and to you, they're like, yeah, that's life. That's not a big deal to them. It is a big 00:28:57.320 --> 00:29:04.680 deal. And so the hurt or the feelings that they have with that are valid. And so taking it from that 00:29:04.680 --> 00:29:11.400 perspective will really shift how you think about it, which will shift like their trust in you more 00:29:11.400 --> 00:29:16.120 because they'll really know that you're caring for them and wanting to think, you know, talk about it 00:29:16.120 --> 00:29:26.360 for them. Yeah, I definitely would say the, you know, uh, attentive to their experience. Um, we are, 00:29:27.160 --> 00:29:33.080 when we say do no harm, that means we're not going to minimize their experience. We're going to listen 00:29:33.080 --> 00:29:41.800 and, um, empathetic ear. A lot of that happens a lot, a lot of, a lot of listening, less talking 00:29:42.840 --> 00:29:50.600 because sometimes it really is, they need to be heard. Um, a person who's in crisis or experienced 00:29:50.600 --> 00:29:59.480 trauma needs to be heard. And, um, you know, and as pastors and ministers, we, we have to know ourselves 00:29:59.480 --> 00:30:08.280 well, we have to know ourselves well enough to know this is going, this needs more help than I can 00:30:08.280 --> 00:30:16.440 actually give. I can care. I could pray. I could check in, uh, but they're going to need more than my 00:30:16.440 --> 00:30:22.760 experience and what the letters are behind my name. And, and that requires humility. That requires 00:30:22.760 --> 00:30:29.880 humility. You got to know that I like, Whoa, no, I can't fix this. Also know yourself well. And the 00:30:29.880 --> 00:30:36.680 fact that you, do you have a tendency to be a fixer? If that's the case, you know, you, this is not, 00:30:37.400 --> 00:30:42.280 you got to move it on to the next person. Cause that's not your, that's not your role. 00:30:43.000 --> 00:30:47.800 Yeah. And saying like, it's okay to not know the answer to something. Like you don't have to have 00:30:47.800 --> 00:30:52.760 all the answers, but sometimes, especially as pastors or ministers or people who are helping 00:30:52.760 --> 00:30:55.880 people come to you and think that, well, you've got all the answers. And I'm like, 00:30:56.520 --> 00:31:03.480 no, I don't. And that's okay. Because it brings so much like more realness to them. It's like, 00:31:03.480 --> 00:31:09.640 okay, I don't have the answer, but let's go figure it out together. Or let's find somebody who does. 00:31:09.640 --> 00:31:14.120 And so I think that means so much more. And that again, goes back to that humility. Like 00:31:14.120 --> 00:31:19.720 you don't have to know all the answers, um, before you're trying to figure out something for somebody. 00:31:20.760 --> 00:31:24.680 All right. So I'm a total fixer. Uh, and so, um, 00:31:25.800 --> 00:31:31.960 Yeah. Well, those of us in this field, we are, I mean, in this work, you know, we are fixed. That's 00:31:31.960 --> 00:31:39.000 kind of our leaning. So I, I, I really encourage my colleagues. I said, get, get, keep yourself in 00:31:39.000 --> 00:31:44.280 check and, and, and accountability and fellow ministers, even if that's another church or another 00:31:44.280 --> 00:31:51.320 organization, you have to have check-ins. We always say in chaplaincy where chaplains need chaplains. 00:31:51.320 --> 00:31:56.120 And so, uh, we have to kind of check in. Same with pastors. Pastors need pastors too. 00:31:57.160 --> 00:32:01.960 Is there a line? Does the line change where it's, it's like, um, 00:32:03.240 --> 00:32:08.680 I'm trying to think of the right words here. Um, I'm too much invested. I'm too far into this. I need 00:32:08.680 --> 00:32:16.200 to hand it off to, to someone else. Like, um, is, is, is there, uh, I guess it's really two questions. 00:32:16.200 --> 00:32:20.520 Is there a line where, Hey, at this point, I really need to introduce you to somebody else to, 00:32:21.000 --> 00:32:27.160 to move on, uh, as, as pastors, you know, chaplains may have a different answer, but as pastors and 00:32:27.160 --> 00:32:33.880 ministers, is there a line? Where is that line? And does that line vary per situation? 00:32:34.760 --> 00:32:41.640 Yeah, no, I think it does vary. Um, I also, with the training, I had to take ethics. So there's 00:32:41.640 --> 00:32:47.560 certain things I can and cannot do, um, as a mental health coach. And one of them would be like, 00:32:47.560 --> 00:32:52.920 if I'm too close to the situation, if it's like family friend, I think just overall, 00:32:54.040 --> 00:33:00.200 you again, have to know yourself well enough to know, like, is the situation almost causing you, 00:33:00.200 --> 00:33:06.040 like if you've had trauma, is it re-traumatizing you of things that have happened in your life? 00:33:06.040 --> 00:33:10.040 Then that's definitely a place. Like if it's going to take you to an unhealthy place, 00:33:10.040 --> 00:33:15.400 you need to bring someone else in because first and foremost, if you don't take care of yourself, 00:33:15.400 --> 00:33:20.440 like you can't take care of others. Yeah, definitely with chaplaincy, where that is 00:33:21.400 --> 00:33:28.920 typically, the thing is to have a self-check first. And my mentor says, she says, Stacy, 00:33:28.920 --> 00:33:36.200 that's why it's so important to stay close to Jesus and work in allowing the work of Holy Spirit 00:33:36.200 --> 00:33:44.200 in your life so that you have that check and you know when to say yes and when to say yes, 00:33:44.200 --> 00:33:50.440 I'm here for you. And, and yet this is bringing some things to the surface for me. So, uh, you would 00:33:51.320 --> 00:33:56.920 best be served by someone else who's at a place. So for example, uh, you know, 00:33:57.640 --> 00:34:02.600 for example, say my grandma died yesterday and someone calls me and doesn't know about my 00:34:02.600 --> 00:34:08.440 grandma dying and saying, and they're experiencing loss or something like that. No, then no, I'm not 00:34:08.440 --> 00:34:14.680 going to take that call. I'm going to just say, Hey, you know, this is not to, to, uh, get sympathy 00:34:14.680 --> 00:34:19.640 for me, but my grandma died yesterday. I just want to let you know. So that's why I will not be able 00:34:19.640 --> 00:34:27.080 to serve you well today and go on to the next person, which also brings to the point. You need 00:34:27.080 --> 00:34:33.080 to have trusted resources and allies at, at a drop of a hat. Megan. So Stacy's talking about like, 00:34:33.080 --> 00:34:41.400 uh, uh, uh, uh, a wider bench, uh, of resources and people to, to fall, fall back on. Do you feel 00:34:41.400 --> 00:34:47.320 like you have that as an, and this is not a shot at Tyler, but like, are there, are there people you 00:34:47.320 --> 00:34:54.680 fall back on, um, as a, as a, as a pastor and a, and a minister? Like, do you have people within you, 00:34:54.680 --> 00:34:58.760 in your, in, in your team? Like, who do you fall back on when you have questions like that? 00:34:58.760 --> 00:35:05.880 Yeah. Um, a big one is the counselor in our building that works out of them. Um, her name 00:35:05.880 --> 00:35:12.840 is Joni and having her to be able to talk to about situations, because that's, that's again, 00:35:12.840 --> 00:35:18.360 like even as a counselor, mental health, mental health coach, or a pastor who's doing counseling, 00:35:19.160 --> 00:35:23.800 you need, you need to have trusted people around you so that like, that's one thing I know they 00:35:23.800 --> 00:35:28.680 recommend for therapist counselors is to have a group that they can bounce things off of each 00:35:28.680 --> 00:35:34.280 other. Um, cause there are situations that you may have not went through it with someone before, 00:35:34.280 --> 00:35:39.160 but it's in front of you. So you've got to figure out what to do next. And so to have people who have 00:35:39.160 --> 00:35:46.920 done that super beneficial. Um, but yeah, I, we have a really unique staff too, that we are all like, 00:35:46.920 --> 00:35:54.200 we try to be for each other all the time. So if we are in need or struggling, everyone knows that they 00:35:54.200 --> 00:35:59.640 can come to another person on staff and we're going to be there for each other. Um, and that's really 00:35:59.640 --> 00:36:05.080 important because if you don't have that support, you almost feel like you're isolated and you're out 00:36:05.080 --> 00:36:11.000 there on a island on your own. It's never a good place to be, especially when you're trying to care 00:36:11.000 --> 00:36:17.480 for a lot of people. Um, I feel that in this digital space, um, sometimes there's a lot of us that are, 00:36:18.120 --> 00:36:25.800 that can feel alone because we might be just the point person in our, in, in real life church that 00:36:26.760 --> 00:36:33.640 is serving in the digital space. Um, and so that's why it was so important for me to be connected 00:36:34.200 --> 00:36:42.200 with TCD, DCN because of that. Um, we needed that space or I needed that space to have 00:36:42.920 --> 00:36:48.200 just support, even though we're in totally different ministries, churches, 00:36:49.320 --> 00:36:55.640 anything that is, it's everything was different, but the need is the same for support and care. 00:36:56.360 --> 00:37:02.120 Yeah. Listening to, uh, to Megan talk about, you know, like getting that support, um, 00:37:03.080 --> 00:37:07.800 feeling all alone. I mean, that was, that was me, a lot of my ministry career working for churches 00:37:07.800 --> 00:37:11.880 because I mean, when I was, when I was digital pastor, there weren't a lot of digital pastors. 00:37:12.200 --> 00:37:19.160 And, um, and so I was viewed as crazy. And so having, having, um, you know, TCD become that support 00:37:19.160 --> 00:37:25.480 system, um, for people that are thinking outside of the box and, um, and trying to train and help 00:37:25.480 --> 00:37:29.480 others do ministry in these, in these difficult spaces, you know, it was, it was interesting. 00:37:29.480 --> 00:37:35.720 I surveyed, um, I probably, this is a couple of years ago. It's about a year. No, it was during 00:37:35.720 --> 00:37:41.720 COVID a year and a half ago. Uh, I surveyed maybe a dozen churches, not non-scientific, uh, but just 00:37:41.720 --> 00:37:49.560 started talking to them about, um, mental health challenges and, um, in dealing with like people that 00:37:49.560 --> 00:37:58.280 are going through trauma. Uh, and it was interesting only, um, uh, maybe two or three, it was a very small 00:37:58.280 --> 00:38:05.160 percentage said that they had any contact, any situation with people, uh, that were going through 00:38:05.160 --> 00:38:09.800 traumatic situation. And this was like in the middle of COVID, like COVID was still a thing when we did 00:38:09.800 --> 00:38:16.440 this. And I, and I was, I was just floored. Um, and, and, and, and to be honest, the more that I got into 00:38:16.440 --> 00:38:22.520 it, it was, oh, well, you know, our online ministry is, is just broadcasting church services online and 00:38:22.520 --> 00:38:27.400 we may talk with somebody in chat, but we're not, we're not getting, you know, dirty and we're not 00:38:27.400 --> 00:38:32.680 being relational, um, with, with people. And, and one of the reasons why, when I wanted to have this 00:38:32.680 --> 00:38:37.000 conversation with trauma and, uh, in crisis, that's why I wanted to bring in, you know, 00:38:37.000 --> 00:38:42.280 you two, Stacy and Megan, cause I know, I know first capital church anywhere. I know the passion 00:38:42.280 --> 00:38:47.160 that they have to get to know people and be invested in, in their lives. You know, I remember when 00:38:47.160 --> 00:38:53.320 Tyler was digital pastor, whatever his title, his title was. And he told me, Jeff, it's my job to 00:38:53.320 --> 00:38:57.400 know a hundred people. He's now lead pastor of the church, but he has a digital pastors. Like, 00:38:57.400 --> 00:39:02.040 it's my job to know a hundred people, uh, intimately that I would not know in physical space. 00:39:02.040 --> 00:39:07.880 That's literally my job description. And, uh, to see the, the relational equity, uh, Stacy, 00:39:07.880 --> 00:39:15.080 that you guys are putting into, into imagine, um, if you're in somebody's lives at that level, 00:39:15.800 --> 00:39:22.680 I mean, I gotta believe that you're able to see, or they're able to have confidence to share, uh, 00:39:22.680 --> 00:39:28.680 some of these difficult situations. And, um, and you know, just to be blunt, like if you or your 00:39:28.680 --> 00:39:35.640 church isn't experiencing in a lot of these trauma type situations, maybe you're not getting dirty 00:39:35.640 --> 00:39:39.720 enough. I don't know what the phrase is here. Maybe, maybe you're not being open enough and 00:39:39.720 --> 00:39:44.200 susceptible. What do you think, Stacy? Right. Well, I think it starts with us as the leaders, right? 00:39:45.560 --> 00:39:51.320 Yes, there are, uh, you know, when you call it boundaries in place of how much you share, 00:39:52.680 --> 00:39:58.040 but it really is, we nurture that kind of environment. Like if I'm not going to ask for 00:39:58.040 --> 00:40:05.400 prayer for my family, you know, uh, or situation like then, then no one else is going to really 00:40:05.400 --> 00:40:11.880 want to share. You know, we nurture the environment that we, if we're saying that we care about each 00:40:11.880 --> 00:40:17.320 other and love one another, it starts with us. It starts with the leaders. And if we don't, 00:40:17.320 --> 00:40:23.400 then how to really, really, what kind of expectation can you have of the people in your church? Um, 00:40:23.400 --> 00:40:30.440 so it starts with being vulnerable and, um, open, honest. Like I said, there's some boundaries in 00:40:30.440 --> 00:40:36.440 place, but, um, yeah, I think that's where it starts. Well, we've talked a lot about, um, 00:40:38.040 --> 00:40:41.080 that's where it starts with leadership. We've talked a lot about staffs and pastors. 00:40:41.080 --> 00:40:47.640 Um, how, how do we equip volunteers? Uh, maybe someone that doesn't have a lot of training, 00:40:47.640 --> 00:40:53.960 um, uh, oversight doesn't have the, uh, the certification is working on biblical counseling. 00:40:53.960 --> 00:41:02.280 Like how do we help a normal person maybe start to understand how to recognize and then relate to, 00:41:02.280 --> 00:41:08.760 um, people that are going through trauma or, um, or grief or crisis like we're talking about here. 00:41:08.760 --> 00:41:16.280 Yeah. Yeah. A, a big piece is training them. Um, that seems like a simple answer, but it's not so 00:41:16.280 --> 00:41:25.080 simple because it is such a big complex thing. Um, there is so many avenues of trauma and, but there's 00:41:25.080 --> 00:41:31.240 so many people that go through it. And so I think a big piece, if you have someone that either you can 00:41:31.960 --> 00:41:38.040 kind of lean on that has that training already that you can learn from them, or even there are 00:41:38.040 --> 00:41:44.360 resources out there that if you can have a good training, like I know the AAC does trainings, um, 00:41:44.360 --> 00:41:50.920 on trauma-informed care, um, it's a great one just to have, um, you don't have to do all the big 00:41:50.920 --> 00:41:57.480 trainings. Like I'm doing the 90 hours, but doing this smaller inform, you know, trauma-informed care 00:41:58.040 --> 00:42:03.000 or having a few people do it and then bringing back the knowledge they've learned and being able to 00:42:03.000 --> 00:42:09.320 work with those, especially those that are working on, you know, uh, like a care team. Um, we have a 00:42:09.320 --> 00:42:15.160 care team here and so getting them the training so that they know how to respond, um, so that they're 00:42:15.160 --> 00:42:20.600 not doing that harm of either saying like, well, what's wrong with you? Why are you feeling that 00:42:20.600 --> 00:42:25.800 way? Or those are the things that irritate me the most is when somebody's like, well, just pray more 00:42:25.800 --> 00:42:31.320 about it, have more faith. And I'm like, no, that like, you don't understand how, you know, the person 00:42:31.320 --> 00:42:36.200 probably has prayed about it. They probably have faith about it, but there's sometimes it takes 00:42:36.200 --> 00:42:44.440 things going hand in hand of, you know, praying and a person working together, um, to get them to 00:42:44.440 --> 00:42:50.840 a healing place. But yeah, just continuing to talk about it, start that conversation. That's the best 00:42:50.840 --> 00:42:55.720 way to get it going. At least now that, now that Megan's talked about like, oh yeah, praying more, 00:42:55.720 --> 00:43:05.320 all that stuff. I, oh my God. Oh my gosh. I just, it just rates just because my, I really do focus 00:43:05.320 --> 00:43:12.200 on grief care. That is like, oh, oh gosh, there's so many, like, aren't you over it yet? Or yes, 00:43:12.200 --> 00:43:16.760 you need to pray more. Well, you know, all things work together are good. Oh, God needed another angel. 00:43:16.760 --> 00:43:24.120 No, he did not. Like that is, that is not the correct thing to say. Oh, he needed another angel. 00:43:24.120 --> 00:43:31.880 You know, when a baby dies. Yeah. That's what I want to hear when my baby dies. So, um, it's just, 00:43:31.880 --> 00:43:40.280 it, it's kind of just more, uh, listening more, you know, than talking. And, uh, I know some people 00:43:40.280 --> 00:43:44.520 are afraid to say something. They're afraid to say, they're going to say the wrong thing. So I just 00:43:44.520 --> 00:43:48.120 encourage people, well, don't say anything. It's fine to say you're there, you're present. 00:43:49.720 --> 00:43:55.960 And, um, a term that I, I learned, Megan, I just learned that this last year in 2023 spiritual 00:43:55.960 --> 00:44:02.360 bypassing. I literally just learned it. I didn't know. I knew the term, it made sense, the meaning 00:44:02.360 --> 00:44:07.560 of it, but I had not heard the term spiritual bypassing literally means you're bypassing all 00:44:07.560 --> 00:44:14.760 your feelings, all the things you're experiencing, uh, with, for the sake of being, uh, for the sake of 00:44:14.760 --> 00:44:24.600 your spiritual enlightenment. So, uh, it is. So when people ignore their feelings, things are facing 00:44:24.600 --> 00:44:31.240 or their grief, they're just trying to just need to get through it. I'm going to rely on my religion, 00:44:32.040 --> 00:44:40.120 solely my religious books and scriptures, uh, to get through it. That's it. 00:44:41.960 --> 00:44:49.000 And it's become very common. And I guess now, uh, there's a lot of unlearning for 00:44:49.000 --> 00:44:55.000 those of us that grew up in a church. I would say it's just, it's something that 00:44:56.680 --> 00:45:01.560 that we thought was the right thing to do because that was what, or say, because that's what was said 00:45:01.560 --> 00:45:08.120 to us. And so we, in my, in my church group, we talk about that a lot of the unlearning because a lot 00:45:08.120 --> 00:45:15.720 of us have church history of, uh, what, what was the right thing to say? Like, oh, we just need to 00:45:15.720 --> 00:45:22.440 pray more. I'll pray with you. Oh, you know, read this scripture. All things work together for good. 00:45:22.440 --> 00:45:29.160 I mean, all that stupid stuff. I just said scripture is stupid. Sorry, but no, that's not what I'm saying. 00:45:29.160 --> 00:45:36.760 Out of context. Yes. Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. So, uh, yeah, it just gets, 00:45:36.760 --> 00:45:42.040 uh, even when Megan, when you're saying the, I just kind of, I had that activated response in my body. 00:45:42.040 --> 00:45:48.200 I'm like, oh, well, spiritual bypassing. That was probably me in the, in my twenties. 00:45:50.120 --> 00:45:54.120 Yeah. Like that could probably define my entire twenties. Uh, but that's, that's a, 00:45:54.760 --> 00:45:58.920 that's a, uh, another therapy session. I was like, that's the session with Megan. Okay. That's. 00:45:59.800 --> 00:46:03.560 Which is interesting, which gets us to the next question. Uh, as pastors and ministers, 00:46:03.560 --> 00:46:07.960 how do we protect ourselves from traumatic situations online? Um, how do we, 00:46:08.760 --> 00:46:12.680 how do we care for our own mental health? How do we protect ourselves? 00:46:13.560 --> 00:46:17.160 There's a term that's been going around, um, and it's been around for a long time, 00:46:17.160 --> 00:46:22.600 but I think people are starting to recognize it. Um, actually my friend, Joni, we did a podcast 00:46:22.600 --> 00:46:29.480 on this whole thing and it's compassion fatigue and it's literally people in some kind of caregiving 00:46:29.480 --> 00:46:35.800 ministry or profession. They'll experience it and it can hit your emotional, your physical, your social, 00:46:36.440 --> 00:46:42.040 spiritual, and it's exhaustion of all of them. So it's like you care for people, but you're kind of 00:46:42.040 --> 00:46:47.080 numb to it all. So you can basically be, if for instance, like I could be sitting across from 00:46:47.080 --> 00:46:52.520 somebody and hearing their story and they could be just sharing it all with me. And I'm sitting there 00:46:52.520 --> 00:47:00.200 like, okay, we got 20 minutes left, like not really getting into it to be able to truly care for them 00:47:00.200 --> 00:47:08.920 because you've hit a point of you almost can't give anything else. And that's a real big thing with 00:47:08.920 --> 00:47:14.920 anyone who does ministry, whether you are on staff at a church or you're a volunteer caring for people 00:47:14.920 --> 00:47:22.840 either in person or online. If you don't find ways to take care of yourself, then you're going to get, 00:47:22.840 --> 00:47:27.960 you're going to fall right into that and you won't even realize it till you're there. Cause you just 00:47:27.960 --> 00:47:34.200 get to a point that you're sitting there listening and you're like, I like, I care, but I don't care 00:47:34.200 --> 00:47:40.040 right now. And that's a scary place to be in. And so you want to make sure to try to keep yourself 00:47:40.040 --> 00:47:44.600 from that. And there's a lot of different ways you can do that. Um, self-care kind of has a, 00:47:44.600 --> 00:47:52.360 maybe a bad rap. Um, people just think like, like take a bath and a bubble bath or something. And 00:47:52.360 --> 00:48:00.840 well, that may be great for some baths grossing out. So that's not going to be me, but like exercising, 00:48:00.840 --> 00:48:07.800 talking with somebody else, like having those people and community around you is huge. Finding real rest 00:48:07.800 --> 00:48:12.840 and not fake rest because we can say we're resting and then be thinking of the hundred things we need to 00:48:12.840 --> 00:48:20.200 do. It's not helpful. So finding ways to do that. Um, another way is like celebrating your ministry, 00:48:20.200 --> 00:48:26.120 like what you're doing, even though it's the little wins celebrating, bring that joy into what you're 00:48:26.120 --> 00:48:31.400 doing. Um, and there's, I mean, there's a whole bunch of other things that you can do. A really 00:48:31.400 --> 00:48:38.600 strange one that I tell people all the time is if you have a pet, talk to it. Um, they are the most 00:48:38.600 --> 00:48:45.000 confidential people or animals that you'll ever have. So you can talk to that pet and it literally 00:48:45.000 --> 00:48:51.240 is like therapy. Um, there's actual like equestrian therapy where you can be with a horse and like 00:48:51.240 --> 00:48:57.960 be brushing it, the whole thing, which is really cool how that all works. But honestly, like just 00:48:57.960 --> 00:49:04.520 getting it out, getting out, what's bothering you, what's stressing you out, what all these things that 00:49:04.520 --> 00:49:10.120 are layered on top of each other because we want to fully care for people. But sometimes you've got 00:49:10.120 --> 00:49:17.160 to find again, those boundaries to care so much, but be able to not let it just overwhelm you. 00:49:17.160 --> 00:49:23.880 That was really good. I'm laughing because I'm thinking my dog will like literally get up and 00:49:23.880 --> 00:49:30.280 leave. She's not going to stick around for me to talk to her. She's like, nah, this is too much. 00:49:30.280 --> 00:49:34.040 I'm going to my, I'm going in my house, which is her crate, her safe space, you know, she's like, 00:49:35.640 --> 00:49:42.200 but, um, one thing just for me personally, I got connected. I've been in the recovery 12 steps 00:49:42.200 --> 00:49:49.240 space since 2009. But this year was the first time or late last year, it was the first time I 00:49:50.120 --> 00:49:58.200 got connected into a 12 steps with fellow female pastors and pastors' wives. And that has been a 00:49:58.200 --> 00:50:06.920 source of, of just life, uh, for me that we could share, share about the tough stuff in ministry and our 00:50:06.920 --> 00:50:12.760 own personal lives. Uh, there's not much filtering, you know, there's not a whole lot of filtering 00:50:12.760 --> 00:50:19.560 because we're not, we, we know what each other's lives are like. I've never met, I've met these people 00:50:19.560 --> 00:50:27.320 in person because we're all, it's all on zoom and across the nation, but that has been just, um, 00:50:28.440 --> 00:50:35.400 so life-giving for me. And I highly recommend not just 12 steps, but I recommend any supports or care 00:50:35.400 --> 00:50:42.520 group with fellow ministers, um, not in your, actually that don't even live in your area. 00:50:43.560 --> 00:50:48.600 Cause you might meet up with some, or you might meet them and see them out in the, in the wild. 00:50:48.600 --> 00:50:55.960 Right. But, and it's not bad. It's just, you just want to, um, yeah, you kind of want to have, uh, 00:50:55.960 --> 00:51:03.160 safety and people that you won't bump just happen to bump into. Um, so it's like, oh, you see them 00:51:03.160 --> 00:51:07.960 either with your spouse that you just whined and complained about, you know, in yesterday's meeting. 00:51:09.640 --> 00:51:13.480 Yeah. It's, it's, it's interesting, Stacey. I'm not going to tell you the name of the people that 00:51:13.480 --> 00:51:19.960 are in this text group, but I have a text group, uh, of, of, um, current and former pastors, uh, 00:51:19.960 --> 00:51:26.520 that exists on my phone right now. Um, and the chat group is called chat group that will get you fired. 00:51:27.080 --> 00:51:34.840 Um, and it's, it's, um, it's like I said, existing and former pastors, um, and, and, and it's the 00:51:34.840 --> 00:51:42.280 unfiltered version of, you know, the relationship. Um, and it's funny, like, I don't, I don't see 00:51:43.080 --> 00:51:49.000 any of these people in physical space. Um, but you know, when somebody is going through a hard time, 00:51:49.000 --> 00:51:55.000 you know, throw it in the text group, get a, get jump on a phone call, a zoom, a FaceTime. Um, 00:51:55.000 --> 00:52:01.960 like it's, it's really, it's really interesting to see the, um, I don't even know if it's the right 00:52:01.960 --> 00:52:08.120 word, but the cathartic, the, the, um, the, the freedom, the cleansing almost of being able to, 00:52:08.840 --> 00:52:14.760 um, to, to express some of that. And so, you know, I, I can fully relate. And so, um, 00:52:14.760 --> 00:52:20.520 this is interesting, you know, let's protect our mental health by, um, singing the dogs is what I 00:52:20.520 --> 00:52:26.680 heard, uh, by, by brushing horses and, um, and joining a chat group. That's going to get you fired. 00:52:27.320 --> 00:52:34.680 Sounds like a perfect plan. You know, don't tell Tyler this, uh, Megan, that, 00:52:34.680 --> 00:52:42.440 that won't go well. Eventually. I don't know if this exists out there, but I'd love to have, 00:52:42.440 --> 00:52:50.600 you know, uh, husbands of, uh, uh, what do you call it? Uh, minister ministers, you know, 00:52:51.240 --> 00:52:56.440 that need their own support group. Oh, there, there's a lot of, uh, there's a lot of spouse 00:52:56.440 --> 00:53:02.840 support groups in, in, in ministry. Believe. Yeah. Um, yeah. I mean, well, unfortunately it's the, um, 00:53:03.960 --> 00:53:09.560 I mean, it can be a, it can be a, a, a hard position, a hard life, especially without healthy 00:53:09.560 --> 00:53:15.240 boundaries. And so, um, you know, I, I know there's, there's a lot of, um, a lot of marital 00:53:15.240 --> 00:53:21.320 counseling and a lot of things is centered around, um, you know, uh, spouse support in those types 00:53:21.320 --> 00:53:27.080 of situations. And actually, you know, I've, I've worked on staffs at churches that were very, 00:53:27.080 --> 00:53:31.560 I've worked on staff for churches that couldn't even spell spouse. And then I've worked on staffs 00:53:31.560 --> 00:53:37.720 for churches that were so over the top caring and supportive of, of the spouses that were there. 00:53:37.720 --> 00:53:42.600 Like, it's, it's really interesting to see how even, even churches have different takes on, 00:53:42.600 --> 00:53:48.040 on, on what's involved, uh, on keeping, uh, spouses and families, um, 00:53:49.640 --> 00:53:55.000 happy and stable, uh, during, you know, heavy ministry periods. Hey, this was a, this was, 00:53:55.000 --> 00:54:00.200 yeah, this was a really interesting conversation to maybe to start it. You know, I, I don't know that 00:54:00.200 --> 00:54:05.560 we solved any, any problems here today, but moreover, just brought attention to, uh, to trauma, 00:54:05.560 --> 00:54:11.320 uh, to brought attentions to, to crisis, to some of the difficult situations that we doing ministry, 00:54:11.320 --> 00:54:18.600 uh, are go through, um, in this situation. And so if you have, uh, I tell you what, let's do this. 00:54:18.600 --> 00:54:23.560 If you have questions on this, or you want to start to unpack, uh, what this would look like, 00:54:23.560 --> 00:54:27.960 I'm going to give you my, my cell phone number to talk about lack of boundaries. Uh, but you can 00:54:27.960 --> 00:54:35.000 text me here, 484-324-8724. No, it's not, I am kidding. It's not myself. It's no, 00:54:35.000 --> 00:54:38.440 it is my cell phone. It's one of them. I've got multiple cell phones, but feel free to text me 00:54:38.440 --> 00:54:47.080 484-324-8724. And I would love to talk with anybody that's, um, that's going through this, 00:54:47.080 --> 00:54:55.160 that's struggling with how to handle or address or care for, um, difficult, uh, situations, um, 00:54:55.880 --> 00:55:02.040 with trauma and things like that. Uh, because I think it's important that we take digital ministry 00:55:02.600 --> 00:55:09.160 to that level. I think it's important that we move beyond, uh, just doing, um, chat hosting 00:55:09.720 --> 00:55:15.720 and, uh, and simple conversations and instead start to make ourselves as pastors, as ministers, 00:55:15.720 --> 00:55:21.800 uh, far more accessible and start to really get into the meat, uh, of, of who people are. And, 00:55:21.800 --> 00:55:27.400 and trauma is a big part of who people are. Um, you know, little t traumas compile up to make a, 00:55:27.960 --> 00:55:35.080 a big trauma issue. And so let's, um, uh, let's resolve to make our digital churches and our 00:55:35.080 --> 00:55:42.200 physical churches better, um, in that trauma situation. Awesome. Hey, as, as, uh, we're landing 00:55:42.200 --> 00:55:49.000 the plane here, Stacy, uh, any, any closing thoughts? Yeah. You know, I just encourage people to, 00:55:49.800 --> 00:55:58.760 to start, just start, do some work of looking online. What are, what are some, uh, uh, resources 00:55:58.760 --> 00:56:05.320 to not just awareness, but training for yourself? One thing I will say is that, um, there is the 00:56:05.320 --> 00:56:12.760 radio station K love. They, they have a crisis response, uh, team. Um, they do free trainings 00:56:12.760 --> 00:56:17.400 and it's online. Well, some of them are in person, some are online, but they are right now and have 00:56:17.400 --> 00:56:24.280 been for free. Uh, that's a great place to start. That is not the end all, but that's a great place 00:56:24.280 --> 00:56:28.680 to start so that you're just awareness that we talked about compassionate fatigue. Literally 00:56:28.680 --> 00:56:36.440 a whole day is, is training and on compassion fatigue, uh, you know, seven hours or whatever 00:56:36.440 --> 00:56:42.440 it is. And, and like I said, it's in person or online, but crisis response.org. I think that's 00:56:42.440 --> 00:56:48.760 the name of it crisis response care or something like that.org. Um, but that's to help get us equipped, 00:56:48.760 --> 00:56:56.200 get the conversation started, what's important. And, um, we want to care for ourselves and care 00:56:56.200 --> 00:57:01.080 for others. Well, um, we'll put a, well, I'll, I'll Google crisis response for Caleb. I'll put 00:57:01.080 --> 00:57:05.800 a link in the show notes for that. Um, Megan, any, uh, any closing thoughts on your side? 00:57:05.800 --> 00:57:11.480 Uh, I mean, Stacy summed it up pretty well. Um, that's honestly what I was thinking of like, 00:57:11.480 --> 00:57:16.920 always be a learner, always be learning. Cause there is no way that we can learn everything about 00:57:16.920 --> 00:57:23.960 the brain and how it works and how it affects us as a whole person. Um, so always be learning on 00:57:23.960 --> 00:57:30.200 just to improve your skills, um, and how you have relationships with people, talking to them, 00:57:30.200 --> 00:57:35.640 how to better help other people. But then again, in turn, help yourself and take care of yourself. 00:57:35.640 --> 00:57:41.720 Cause that's extremely important. Well, who said earlier, uh, self-care is kind of like a stigma 00:57:41.720 --> 00:57:46.520 or a negative connection to it. Yeah. Megan, that was, that was a good call, 00:57:46.520 --> 00:57:53.560 self-care is not soul care. Two different things. It can be two different things. 00:57:53.560 --> 00:57:58.120 Stacy, you are so much fun. We got to have you back on the podcast. Find you another excuse to 00:57:58.120 --> 00:58:02.760 bring you, bring you back. You're this is, this is good stuff. Megan, you're as well. We've got a, 00:58:02.760 --> 00:58:07.480 we've got a couple of the podcasts coming up, but Hey, uh, for today, we're going to land the plane for, 00:58:07.480 --> 00:58:15.640 uh, for, uh, for Stacy, uh, soul care is not self-care and for Megan. Uh, this is Jeff, uh, 00:58:15.640 --> 00:58:18.440 with the church digital. Thanks for jumping on the podcast. Y'all have a good day. 00:58:28.520 --> 00:58:32.840 We'll see you next time.