WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:03.020 connect and encourage, connect like we are doing today, 00:00:03.140 --> 00:00:06.280 connect with as many people as possible who are in the same sphere 00:00:06.280 --> 00:00:11.500 and encourage each other that is not just your mad idea, 00:00:11.680 --> 00:00:19.440 that it's really kingdom-minded working towards one future of the church, 00:00:19.520 --> 00:00:20.940 not the only future of the church. 00:00:21.580 --> 00:00:23.680 Welcome to the Church Digital Podcast. 00:00:24.620 --> 00:00:28.520 Through this podcast, we'll talk about the technological innovations within the church, 00:00:28.700 --> 00:00:32.320 but more than tech for tech itself, we'll address deeper questions. 00:00:32.940 --> 00:00:34.540 Is disciple-making possible digitally? 00:00:35.000 --> 00:00:37.000 How should we approach the digital mission field? 00:00:37.300 --> 00:00:39.880 Can a biblically grounded church operate in digital space? 00:00:40.300 --> 00:00:44.180 Oh, and where does the metaverse and artificial intelligence fit into all of this? 00:00:45.200 --> 00:00:47.080 Whether you're a big or small church, 00:00:47.080 --> 00:00:51.920 the Church Digital's goal is to help churches like yours learn to be a multiplying church, 00:00:52.300 --> 00:00:53.780 digitally and physically. 00:00:54.260 --> 00:00:55.920 And now here's your host, Jeff Reed. 00:00:56.300 --> 00:00:59.460 All right, we've got episode 284 of the Church Digital Podcast. 00:01:00.500 --> 00:01:00.940 284. 00:01:01.220 --> 00:01:03.540 Simon Dirks is coming up just around the corner. 00:01:04.000 --> 00:01:07.980 By the way, the Church Digital Podcast brought to you by Riverside. 00:01:08.060 --> 00:01:08.980 Love saying that. 00:01:09.080 --> 00:01:15.180 Love having a sponsor here helping us get the Church Digital Podcast out in front of people like you. 00:01:15.180 --> 00:01:20.740 And so actually, Riverside is a remote interview software, incredible quality. 00:01:20.820 --> 00:01:23.340 We've been talking about it in past weeks of the Church Digital Podcast. 00:01:24.460 --> 00:01:27.940 Just recently, we had Andy Mage, operations director of the Church Digital. 00:01:28.380 --> 00:01:31.800 He and I were doing an interview, Leslie Riverside, of course, 00:01:32.220 --> 00:01:36.820 talking about spatial computing, Apple's Vision Pro. 00:01:37.680 --> 00:01:40.680 And so I use this software all the time. 00:01:40.760 --> 00:01:42.700 I'm just going to open confession hour here. 00:01:42.960 --> 00:01:44.580 I use it to interview people. 00:01:45.300 --> 00:01:50.220 And then the great thing about me is I hand it over to somebody else to actually produce the video. 00:01:50.320 --> 00:01:52.940 Garrett Silji's edited video for us in the past. 00:01:53.600 --> 00:01:55.300 Andy Mage is doing it for us now. 00:01:56.020 --> 00:01:59.400 And so, like, it's a lot of fun handing it off to somebody else to deal with. 00:02:00.000 --> 00:02:02.660 But, you know, since we're talking so much about Riverside, I thought, hey, you know what? 00:02:02.660 --> 00:02:06.180 I'm going to click around here on Riverside, play around a little bit, see what I can figure out. 00:02:06.620 --> 00:02:12.980 And there's this really interesting section within Riverside where it's, like, artificial intelligence to create clips. 00:02:13.440 --> 00:02:16.460 Actually, like, it scanned the entire interview with Andy Mage. 00:02:17.000 --> 00:02:27.780 And, like, within a couple minutes of clicking the button, it picked out maybe 10, 15 of the top clips of what it thought the top clips were from the interview. 00:02:28.320 --> 00:02:29.900 And so I listened to some of these. 00:02:29.900 --> 00:02:37.280 And, you know, to be honest, I spent 15 minutes max creating three different clips total. 00:02:37.980 --> 00:02:43.480 So five minutes per clip to a minute in length to get it and get it uploaded into YouTube. 00:02:44.180 --> 00:02:50.220 Just one of those clips will actually, you know, set a record for the Church to Church Digital's YouTube account. 00:02:50.500 --> 00:02:53.160 Thousands, thousands upon thousands of views. 00:02:53.160 --> 00:02:59.820 Like, we were super excited to see something come from, like, and I am not being facetious. 00:02:59.900 --> 00:03:00.800 It's not over-exaggerating here. 00:03:01.480 --> 00:03:06.700 Five minutes worth of work to create a clip, get it uploaded that thousands of people were exposed to. 00:03:06.900 --> 00:03:10.700 And now we saw subscriptions increase through the Church Digital on YouTube. 00:03:11.720 --> 00:03:14.520 Riverside has so much power built in. 00:03:14.600 --> 00:03:18.040 And church, there's opportunities for you to take advantage of this. 00:03:18.040 --> 00:03:28.760 Whether you're doing sermons and you just want to upload to utilize it for the artificial intelligence, for, you know, topics or themes or clips, you can use that. 00:03:28.840 --> 00:03:31.320 Or even, like, summarization, you can do that. 00:03:31.840 --> 00:03:38.100 Or maybe you want to move beyond the sermon and start creating content more exclusively for online. 00:03:38.100 --> 00:03:52.380 Not just repurposing, but utilizing Riverside's remote interview or remote producing to try to get better quality video without having to deal with coming into the studio and some of the complexity that comes with that. 00:03:52.900 --> 00:03:53.900 Riverside is incredible. 00:03:53.900 --> 00:03:57.760 So check it out, thechurch.digital.com slash Riverside. 00:03:57.820 --> 00:04:02.100 More information there at the website, thechurch.digital.com slash Riverside. 00:04:02.160 --> 00:04:06.820 Okay, hey, let's dig in here with my friend Simon Dirks. 00:04:06.900 --> 00:04:11.560 Now, I have never—actually, I'm hesitating when I say this. 00:04:12.140 --> 00:04:15.100 I'm not even sure we've been in the same state together. 00:04:15.480 --> 00:04:18.200 I don't think we've been in the same continent. 00:04:18.360 --> 00:04:20.860 I don't know that he's ever been in America, when I've been in America. 00:04:20.980 --> 00:04:22.560 Simon Dirks is German. 00:04:23.000 --> 00:04:24.360 He probably clicked on the headline. 00:04:24.720 --> 00:04:25.820 German church planting. 00:04:25.820 --> 00:04:42.500 And so, like, Simon works for a missional organization, but just recently started a church planting organization that's planting digital expressions, exclusively digital expressions of church in Germany. 00:04:43.420 --> 00:04:46.880 Yeah, so basically, he's the German version of Jeffrey, you know. 00:04:47.460 --> 00:04:51.300 And so, like, it's, you know, grab your—I don't know what they call it. 00:04:51.300 --> 00:04:55.780 I started to make some joke, but the jokes would be just so horrible, I'm not even going to do it. 00:04:56.780 --> 00:05:00.260 What are the—is it Heineken that's the beer that the Germans drink? 00:05:00.260 --> 00:05:00.840 I don't know. 00:05:00.880 --> 00:05:01.480 It's a German beer. 00:05:01.560 --> 00:05:01.780 Heineken? 00:05:01.980 --> 00:05:02.380 Yeah, maybe. 00:05:02.380 --> 00:05:21.280 Anyway, the point being is that I met Simon and some of his team and some of his friends in German, honestly, following a hashtag on Twitter for Digital Kirsch, K-I-R-C. 00:05:21.300 --> 00:05:21.860 K-I-R-C-H-E. 00:05:21.920 --> 00:05:29.100 Actually, it's D-I-G-I-T-A-L-E-K-I-R-C-H-E, which is the equivalent in German to digital church. 00:05:29.340 --> 00:05:31.900 Somehow, I got connected to that way pre-COVID. 00:05:31.940 --> 00:05:33.480 I'm talking, like, almost a decade ago. 00:05:33.820 --> 00:05:38.860 And I've been tracking some of the movements of digital church in Germany over the years. 00:05:38.860 --> 00:06:01.940 And it's so exciting for me to see this actually come to fruition, where now we've got a movement starting in Germany, on another continent, in another country, in another language of people that are wanting to reach and disciple and mobilize people using digital tools and digital churches. 00:06:02.180 --> 00:06:04.340 Like, I'm just, like, I'm flabbergasted. 00:06:04.660 --> 00:06:06.460 We've literally hit another continent here. 00:06:06.540 --> 00:06:13.500 And so, Simon, let's get on a podcast and have a conversation, starting to talk about maybe what are some of the lessons you guys are learning in Germany? 00:06:13.640 --> 00:06:15.300 What can we, the U.S., learn from that? 00:06:15.640 --> 00:06:17.020 What are you actually doing? 00:06:17.140 --> 00:06:19.940 What does a German church look like in your context? 00:06:20.340 --> 00:06:26.020 What is even some of the physical churches, what are they doing in Germany to better understand and utilize digital? 00:06:26.020 --> 00:06:31.240 Remember, remember, we get into this in the podcast, Germany is arguably post-Christian. 00:06:31.820 --> 00:06:33.780 Like, U.S. is kind of post-Christian. 00:06:33.880 --> 00:06:34.860 We're not ready to admit it yet. 00:06:35.000 --> 00:06:39.520 Germany really is a post-Christian culture, a post-Christian environment. 00:06:39.980 --> 00:06:42.960 So, what's the value of digital in the post-Christian? 00:06:43.840 --> 00:06:47.820 Guys, I hate to tell you this, but I think the U.S. is going to follow suit here sooner than later. 00:06:47.820 --> 00:06:58.140 So, hey, enjoy this conversation with my friend Simon Dirks, myself, Jeff, with The Church Digital, in a conversation that I'm calling Planting Digital German Churches. 00:06:58.360 --> 00:06:59.400 Okay, everybody, here you go. 00:07:01.260 --> 00:07:03.120 Well, Jeff, it's a pleasure to be here. 00:07:03.480 --> 00:07:05.260 And what can I tell about myself? 00:07:05.960 --> 00:07:11.860 Well, I'm a guy from Germany, 42 years old, married with Kerstin, and we've got two little children. 00:07:11.860 --> 00:07:17.320 And what I really love is seeing God's kingdom being developed in a digital world. 00:07:17.620 --> 00:07:25.420 That's something I've been dreaming about 20 years, and I'm able to participate in different ways these days. 00:07:25.600 --> 00:07:26.380 That makes me happy. 00:07:26.800 --> 00:07:39.300 I'm also a pastor, I'm a nerd, and I love to do ultra-hiking, something like more than 100 kilometers on just hiking on, hiking on, hiking on. 00:07:39.620 --> 00:07:41.380 All right, so so much goodness there. 00:07:41.560 --> 00:07:43.240 It's God's kingdom in the digital world. 00:07:43.460 --> 00:07:44.200 We'll get there. 00:07:45.400 --> 00:07:47.820 So I've got to convert something. 00:07:47.820 --> 00:07:53.420 A 10 kilometer is, a 5 kilometer is 3.1 miles. 00:07:53.900 --> 00:07:56.900 A 10 kilometer is 6.2. 00:07:57.680 --> 00:08:02.960 So this ultra-hiking thing is over 100 kilometers. 00:08:03.180 --> 00:08:05.860 So we're talking, you hike over 60 miles. 00:08:06.440 --> 00:08:09.120 Like that's a significant distance. 00:08:09.500 --> 00:08:18.920 Yeah, the longest thing I did was 171 kilometers, and it took me 38 hours. 00:08:19.420 --> 00:08:25.840 So 38 hours just hiking with small breaks in between, but just going on. 00:08:25.900 --> 00:08:28.920 And the really great thing about it, people always ask me, why do you do that? 00:08:29.200 --> 00:08:37.120 The great thing is, I do this a lot on my Sabbath days when I'm out with Jesus in the woods, so to say. 00:08:37.700 --> 00:08:45.960 And the great thing is, when you know that you'll be hiking for 24 or 30 hours, then you don't have to hurry when praying. 00:08:46.500 --> 00:08:49.380 You definitely have enough time to finish it up. 00:08:49.840 --> 00:08:50.880 Man, I'm sorry. 00:08:50.960 --> 00:08:55.340 I did not realize we're going to open this podcast with the spiritualization of walking 100 miles. 00:08:55.780 --> 00:08:57.800 My gosh, that's incredible. 00:08:58.020 --> 00:09:02.780 Now, when you say hiking, you live in Germany, right? 00:09:03.020 --> 00:09:06.020 So, like, is this you're hiking the German Alps? 00:09:06.240 --> 00:09:08.640 Is this, like, where are you? 00:09:08.940 --> 00:09:15.040 Or is this, you know, I know guys that do this in America, you know, that ultra runners and that. 00:09:15.460 --> 00:09:17.740 And it's not Alpine. 00:09:17.920 --> 00:09:21.240 It's like, you know, Desert Road. 00:09:21.240 --> 00:09:28.360 They do a 100-mile race down here from Miami to Key West, and it's like a 90-mile distance in that. 00:09:28.560 --> 00:09:33.000 But, like, that's not what you're – are you, like, mountain climbing for all that? 00:09:33.400 --> 00:09:34.160 It differs. 00:09:34.300 --> 00:09:41.220 So, in Germany, you've got everything from flat land near the coast up to mountains in the Alpine. 00:09:41.660 --> 00:09:49.220 I'm situated in the middle of Germany, and so there we have, well, I would say something like hills, not really mountains. 00:09:49.680 --> 00:10:04.060 So, when you hike something like 24 hours, then you'll have perhaps something like 3,000 meters in height difference that you're climbing up and down. 00:10:04.140 --> 00:10:06.580 Your discipline blows me away. 00:10:06.820 --> 00:10:13.740 I mean, I could – there was a stretch where I used to run, like, half marathons, where I used to do, like, the 13-kilometer runs. 00:10:15.020 --> 00:10:19.680 And, by the way, your mathematical skills and understanding of the metric system blows mine away as well. 00:10:19.900 --> 00:10:31.860 So, like, I really want to start talking about digital church because at least now I can talk about things that I understand and not, like, the metric system because, you know, America is the one country that decides that, you know, they don't believe in the metric system. 00:10:32.200 --> 00:10:35.200 So, well, Americans don't believe in a lot of things, it feels like, in 24. 00:10:35.440 --> 00:10:38.880 But that might – we may actually get into that on a side conversation a little bit. 00:10:38.940 --> 00:10:50.240 Listen, Simon, I'm super glad to have you in this conversation, and I'm excited to learn more about what digital church looks like and some of the things that you're working on missiologically for the kingdom. 00:10:50.240 --> 00:11:00.080 And so, you said it right off the bat, and I want to come back to it, this idea of God's kingdom in the virtual world, God's kingdom in the digital world. 00:11:00.940 --> 00:11:06.040 Start to unpack for me a little bit, like, what does that mean? 00:11:06.140 --> 00:11:09.940 What are you seeing digitally in Germany? 00:11:10.500 --> 00:11:11.840 Well, it's a big question. 00:11:12.200 --> 00:11:15.260 So, I would start with my own way. 00:11:15.260 --> 00:11:20.800 I've been working as a programmer, informatic nerd for something like 20 years. 00:11:20.940 --> 00:11:24.240 I've also been a pastor for eight years in a small church in Germany. 00:11:24.960 --> 00:11:32.660 And for the past seven years, I've been working first in public relations for a German mission agency. 00:11:33.160 --> 00:11:37.740 And over the time of corona, we had a big change process. 00:11:37.740 --> 00:11:44.740 We were thinking a lot of future of global missions in think tanks and so on. 00:11:45.100 --> 00:11:49.340 And we also had one think tank regarding digital mission 2030. 00:11:49.600 --> 00:12:03.080 So, thinking about what will, how the digitalization and how the digital realms will change the way we do globally mission within the next one or two decades. 00:12:03.600 --> 00:12:14.680 And a couple of things, well, jumped out for us and we recognized, okay, there are some areas where we have to start now to be forerunners and to start learning now. 00:12:15.080 --> 00:12:16.940 That is what we started last year. 00:12:16.940 --> 00:12:31.860 So, we started reaching digital and what I'm seeing at the moment are three or four different ways where digital ministry is growing in our realm. 00:12:32.080 --> 00:12:35.820 So, first is digital evangelization, especially on social media. 00:12:36.000 --> 00:12:43.500 We got two TikTok missionaries full-time who are working with us and reaching people online, especially on TikTok and Instagram. 00:12:44.220 --> 00:13:02.420 We've got a couple of gaming missionaries who are working amongst gamers in German nerd culture communities and multiplying disciple-making gamers there. 00:13:02.960 --> 00:13:10.720 The second thing is for one and a half year, we got a digital church plant going on, our church federation. 00:13:11.460 --> 00:13:17.180 And I'm happy to be part of it and I thought, okay, this can't be that this is the only digital church plant in Germany. 00:13:17.320 --> 00:13:28.780 So, I tried to bring them all together and to my astounding, as far as I know, there are only three digital church plants, purely digital church plants in Germany so far. 00:13:28.900 --> 00:13:33.980 But a couple of more to come, a couple of more in planning and I love to bring them together. 00:13:33.980 --> 00:13:56.120 And one thing I'm really keen on developing is I've been in talks with a really, really fascinating guy, Stefan Eel, who is a real artificial intelligence specialist and is loving the topic, has been in global business for the last decade. 00:13:56.120 --> 00:14:06.840 And for personal reasons, God challenged him where and how he could invest all this knowledge into God's kingdom. 00:14:07.040 --> 00:14:15.820 We are together thinking where and how artificial intelligence could shape the way we do evangelization and mission in Germany and beyond. 00:14:16.660 --> 00:14:22.280 So, these are the four paths at the moment I'm seeing together with my work. 00:14:23.280 --> 00:14:27.960 And I can't imagine so much more, but these are the starter for today. 00:14:28.440 --> 00:14:29.580 It's fascinating. 00:14:29.820 --> 00:14:32.860 Like, you hit all the headlines right there within the first five minutes of the podcast. 00:14:33.120 --> 00:14:33.780 That was beautiful. 00:14:34.640 --> 00:14:38.100 Gamers, nerd culture, digital church planting, artificial intelligence. 00:14:39.200 --> 00:14:41.520 You didn't say fidgetal, but that's, you know, I'm kidding. 00:14:41.720 --> 00:14:44.020 I don't know if fidgetal translates into German. 00:14:44.260 --> 00:14:47.340 That may be, we don't like to say fidgetal around here either, although. 00:14:47.340 --> 00:14:57.800 I come to fidgetal when we go a little in depth regarding digital church planting, because I recognize there's always some misunderstandings to clear up when we're talking about digital church. 00:14:58.480 --> 00:14:59.400 Ah, very interesting. 00:14:59.820 --> 00:15:04.220 So, what is the, what's the physical church look like in Germany? 00:15:04.380 --> 00:15:10.380 Like, I, you know, there are stories of the decline of the church in London. 00:15:10.380 --> 00:15:17.920 You know, I, I just, I constantly hear the stat that Christmas Eve in, in Britain, more people were in a pub than in a church building. 00:15:18.460 --> 00:15:29.140 And so it's, you know, I, I feel like, you know, at least in Britain context, it's operating in a post post Christian culture environment. 00:15:29.400 --> 00:15:32.020 Do you, is Germany operating that way as well at this point? 00:15:32.060 --> 00:15:33.180 Like, what's, what's the state? 00:15:34.380 --> 00:15:35.840 Yes, I would say so. 00:15:35.960 --> 00:15:54.200 So, what you could generally say, what you can say in common for a whole of Western Europe are a couple of things, especially for Germany, I can say we got a strong heritage, strong spiritual heritage, of course, because of reformation, because of all theology and all missionaries who came out of Germany. 00:15:54.200 --> 00:16:06.280 But, um, nowadays, um, I think it was last year when, um, the first time, um, more than 50% of the Germans were not a member of any Christian church. 00:16:06.780 --> 00:16:24.180 Um, the Protestant and Catholic churches are declining rapidly, um, and parts of Eastern Germany, so, uh, the part that was a long-time communism after, over decades, are, um, statistically the most atheistic regions of Germany. 00:16:24.180 --> 00:16:47.300 Western Europe, so I would say, uh, yes, we are post Christians and Christianity needs to be rediscovered and re-communicated in our country, um, what is, what we share, um, with all of, especially Western Europe is where church is really, um, on the rise of finding new ways. 00:16:47.300 --> 00:17:05.280 So, um, so, um, one of the three, uh, central topics, um, that, uh, that were also a focus of the, uh, Lausanne movement, uh, Gathering Europe in 2021 was, um, American churches definitely had a strong rise in Germany. 00:17:05.280 --> 00:17:26.840 Also, in our church federation, we recognize that we got something like 500 churches, but we also have, uh, something like, I think, 120, um, 120, um, churches, um, or communities of migrants from, I think, something like 40 or 50 different culture groups, language groups, and so on. 00:17:26.840 --> 00:17:29.180 And these are really, really, really growing. 00:17:29.520 --> 00:17:47.180 There are people, there are people in Germany who get, um, once, uh, once and again, you get small, uh, revivals, for example, among Iran people, um, from, uh, Iranian people, or, uh, at the moment, partly from people from the Ukraine, who are as refugees here in Germany. 00:17:47.840 --> 00:17:57.140 Um, there's a first part, second part is, um, youth movements, especially youth movements connected with, uh, discipleship. 00:17:57.340 --> 00:18:03.100 This is also why we are building a couple of discipleship schools, um, over Europe. 00:18:03.720 --> 00:18:16.320 And the third thing is, um, uh, inter, uh, is, uh, inter-denominational charismatic youth movements as well. 00:18:16.320 --> 00:18:29.440 You get a lot of, uh, uh, these, the, the, the only group that is strongly, um, growing in Germany is, um, among, um, is among, uh, Pentecostal churches. 00:18:29.960 --> 00:18:35.780 Some of the evangelical churches as well, but, um, strongest growth is among, uh, Pentecostal churches. 00:18:35.960 --> 00:18:37.740 So that would be short overview. 00:18:38.160 --> 00:18:40.620 Now, I want to come back to Ukrainians in, in, in a little bit. 00:18:40.680 --> 00:18:45.480 It's actually, um, some very good friends of ours, um, were Ukrainian refugees that came to America, 00:18:45.480 --> 00:18:46.780 lived actually here in Miami. 00:18:47.100 --> 00:18:48.980 They just moved to, to Germany. 00:18:48.980 --> 00:18:55.580 Uh, and so it's ironically, like, just, I think Christmas Eve, they, they flew Christmas Eve or Christmas Day. 00:18:56.040 --> 00:19:04.660 But, um, talk to me about, like, the, the, it's, it's interesting about the charismatic, uh, Pentecostal movements maybe succeeding. 00:19:05.400 --> 00:19:10.880 Um, traditionally in America, and I may be generalizing, and this is a generalization conversation, 00:19:10.880 --> 00:19:18.780 but in America, uh, the charismatics, uh, have not had as much, have not seen as much value of, of digital. 00:19:19.480 --> 00:19:28.580 Um, at least in context of church, that they would want to use digital as a marketing tool to drive people into a physical building. 00:19:28.580 --> 00:19:36.300 But the idea of being church and doing church digitally, discipling somebody digitally, not in physically, like, uh, charismatics, 00:19:36.300 --> 00:19:38.800 and, and to be honest, uh, evangel, evangelicals. 00:19:38.920 --> 00:19:43.260 And, and as a general rule, the church has been hesitant towards doing something like that. 00:19:43.660 --> 00:19:45.440 Um, is that the case in Germany? 00:19:45.660 --> 00:19:49.460 What, what, what are you all seeing and, and, and feeling some of this tension around digital? 00:19:50.000 --> 00:19:53.300 Yes, uh, I guess it's quite, quite the same here. 00:19:53.380 --> 00:20:06.540 I see a lot of churches, um, interested, but not being able or being hesitant about really, um, uh, really getting into digital church ministry. 00:20:06.540 --> 00:20:17.960 What happened is that we in Germany had here really, really boost of, um, digital ways of spirituality and digital ways of doing church through Corona as everybody on this globe, I guess. 00:20:18.520 --> 00:20:33.820 Um, what the result of this is that, I guess, from, uh, the Protestant Catholic churches up to almost every small church plant, um, they built up the, um, the capabilities to, to do live streams and services. 00:20:33.820 --> 00:20:40.020 So, to do analog church life and to stream it in a digital, digital way. 00:20:40.580 --> 00:20:56.340 What I almost, what I, what I see only in very few places is original digital, um, uh, ways of, um, spirituality of doing, uh, doing church. 00:20:56.540 --> 00:21:02.280 And that was what I pointed at, uh, earlier on that I guess there are a lot of virtual churches. 00:21:02.280 --> 00:21:05.500 There are really some that came out strong out of Corona. 00:21:05.660 --> 00:21:13.260 We got, for example, ICF, International Christian Fellowship, uh, also in many other, uh, other countries present. 00:21:13.440 --> 00:21:22.120 They're really good doing an online church, online church that has microchurches all over Germany, although the biggest, uh, microchurch is, um, situated in southern of Germany. 00:21:22.320 --> 00:21:33.080 So, this would, this would be an example where you really got a good hybrid of digital church, but purely digital churches are almost not present. 00:21:33.480 --> 00:21:40.660 You've got a lot of, um, um, Christian, uh, what should I say, Christian content. 00:21:40.860 --> 00:21:53.160 You've got, especially from the Protestant churches, they're willing to do a lot of money and funding into people who do something that is Christian and that is online and that is, uh, that is, uh, nice. 00:21:53.620 --> 00:22:05.840 But a lot of that, what is happening there is not focused missional, um, is, is more, um, it's more, uh, community oriented, social oriented. 00:22:05.840 --> 00:22:24.780 What's the, what's the obstacle, what's the, what's the challenge, what's the, what's the issue that you think the average church leader is, is seeing from moving beyond, you know, content to, towards discipleship, moving away from the consumer mindset digitally toward, toward something else. 00:22:24.780 --> 00:22:30.900 Like, have you, have, I'm sure from a missiological standpoint, you've wrestled with this, like what, what are you feeling looking at it in Germany? 00:22:31.900 --> 00:22:43.040 So, one obstacle I see in many churches is, they have a building, they have bills to pay, and many of the concepts would fade away if they would really switch to digital church. 00:22:43.280 --> 00:22:45.480 That is what I love about our little church plant. 00:22:45.920 --> 00:22:48.500 We have almost, we need almost no funding. 00:22:48.760 --> 00:22:55.780 The only money we are spending at the moment is, uh, for the app, uh, that is our church meeting room, so to say. 00:22:56.400 --> 00:22:59.700 Um, that makes it really easy to, to, to start up church. 00:22:59.820 --> 00:23:00.620 That's one part. 00:23:01.140 --> 00:23:06.160 Second part is that, I think it's really, it's not, not something for everyone. 00:23:06.160 --> 00:23:30.860 There are people who won't ever enter a church because of, um, disabilities, because of, um, what they experienced earlier, because of, uh, of, of, of, uh, of a fragile, uh, biography, or because of, uh, what Christians did to their life, or because they're just too skeptical or too far away from, uh, 00:23:30.860 --> 00:23:37.380 a place where they can, uh, place where they can, uh, live their spirituality for all of those digital church is a unique way to do it. 00:23:37.880 --> 00:23:46.340 But I recognize, for example, my wife would never, uh, would never, uh, would never, ever, um, want to be part of a digital church. 00:23:46.340 --> 00:23:59.860 For me, I have to say that the digital church plant I'm part of is more my church than the analog church, which is 200 meters across the street where I'm, I'm leading the children's service, uh, for my own children. 00:24:00.900 --> 00:24:01.380 Yeah. 00:24:02.140 --> 00:24:03.100 So that's a lot. 00:24:03.200 --> 00:24:06.980 I guess you ask for, um, why people don't do it. 00:24:08.400 --> 00:24:15.560 Part of, part of it is by, is, uh, because they are still in the mood of Corona is gone. 00:24:15.660 --> 00:24:16.780 We have to be all analog. 00:24:17.280 --> 00:24:23.140 A lot of pastors really have a theological problem with digital church is not real church. 00:24:23.480 --> 00:24:26.520 That's a discussion I always have to do once and again. 00:24:26.720 --> 00:24:30.780 So people always start over with digital baptism. 00:24:31.000 --> 00:24:33.280 I would say, okay, we don't have to talk about that first. 00:24:33.280 --> 00:24:39.520 At first we can talk about digital spirituality, about digital community, about digital discipleship. 00:24:39.600 --> 00:24:43.860 And I would say, wow, there's so much possible, uh, regarding that. 00:24:44.460 --> 00:24:50.960 And one thing, one point, uh, that's really hindering is, um, the absence of good examples. 00:24:50.960 --> 00:24:52.420 And that is what I'm up to. 00:24:52.420 --> 00:24:59.000 I want to build networks, um, and empower people who are willing to get up for good examples. 00:24:59.960 --> 00:25:06.320 Yeah, that, that's, we, we very much align on that where, you know, we're still trying to find the, the proof of concept. 00:25:06.320 --> 00:25:15.620 I think in this where, you know, we've got a lot of churches, at least in America, I can tell you stories of a lot of digital, uh, expressions of church that are reaching people missiologically. 00:25:15.620 --> 00:25:23.560 Like there's the mission field is there, uh, in, in, in, it's working, um, monetarily, you know, there's, there's some challenges. 00:25:23.560 --> 00:25:36.300 You know, I've, I've heard, uh, some, some digital churches that the pastors were not bivocational and now they're having to go bivocational because they weren't able to get a funding, uh, for, through the, through the digital church, through ties. 00:25:36.300 --> 00:25:44.980 And, um, donations have been a challenge and even the church digital, like we've, we've been talking, there's, we're not hiding, you know, the financial constraints and issues that we've been running through. 00:25:45.040 --> 00:25:48.280 That's just part of, of doing ministry and digital space. 00:25:48.280 --> 00:25:53.440 But more than that, being the, the bleeding edge guy, like they're, Hey, you want to make a lot of money? 00:25:53.600 --> 00:25:57.360 Church innovation is not the area that you want to like get your first couple million on. 00:25:57.380 --> 00:25:59.200 I'm just like, that's, that's not happening. 00:25:59.900 --> 00:26:01.420 Um, not yet. 00:26:01.600 --> 00:26:03.400 Uh, it's, it's not, not the bleeding edge. 00:26:03.420 --> 00:26:08.300 It's got to get a little more, uh, established before I think it monetizes probably. 00:26:08.860 --> 00:26:11.740 Um, it's a really, man, we could, could have a conversation. 00:26:11.740 --> 00:26:13.080 You said the words real church. 00:26:13.440 --> 00:26:16.040 Um, and I, I feel like I could have a field day on that one too. 00:26:16.740 --> 00:26:18.020 Um, you know, it's funny. 00:26:18.100 --> 00:26:20.980 I was actually, Simon, I was, I was just telling you the story. 00:26:21.300 --> 00:26:27.320 Um, today's Monday, uh, I might, we have recorded this on the 29th of January. 00:26:27.320 --> 00:26:30.640 And so I think, I think we're going to play this on next Monday, February 5th or whatever. 00:26:31.160 --> 00:26:41.760 And, uh, this morning, um, I actually, uh, was like rushed off to go see the doctor because of some medical issues and some things that were, were going on in, in my life. 00:26:41.760 --> 00:26:48.060 I was having a lot of leg pain and it was getting, got worse over the weekend and had a conversation with my wife and, and, you know, 00:26:48.100 --> 00:26:50.480 it was either like go to the emergency room or go see a doctor. 00:26:50.540 --> 00:26:53.980 And so I went and see a doctor and see, you know, if they thought it was worth the emergency room. 00:26:54.120 --> 00:26:58.860 And the doctor looked, thankfully, the doctor looked at it and said, um, Hey, that's great. 00:26:59.120 --> 00:27:06.940 Like, um, you're, you're, you do have issues, but you need to go see a specialist and a surgeon and you need these tests before anybody knows what's going on. 00:27:06.940 --> 00:27:11.520 So don't waste your time going to the emergency room, but go, you know, let's get these tests scheduled. 00:27:11.520 --> 00:27:13.500 And so that's like the process that I'm on. 00:27:14.040 --> 00:27:24.740 That's a very bleak response, but it was a very, um, heartfelt, very warming conversation because I mean, I was like, you know, I'm, they're going to chop off my legs this week. 00:27:24.740 --> 00:27:31.780 And, and it just, like the pain was literally that bad, but the, the doctor, the doctor said it wasn't, what, it wasn't that bad or wasn't to that point yet. 00:27:32.020 --> 00:27:50.400 The reason I bring up this horrific story in a digital church podcast is actually I sent two or three pot texts out, um, a couple, uh, to, uh, some, uh, local guys that are my pastor and another local guy that are supporters and encouragers and, and, uh, prayer partners for me. 00:27:50.780 --> 00:28:00.640 Um, and then I sent a couple to, um, to some guys that are not within physical reach there, they live in other areas, but they're part of the ministry and work of what I do. 00:28:00.740 --> 00:28:02.760 Hey, like, these are just four guys that are in my life. 00:28:03.320 --> 00:28:06.140 Uh, and I was like, Hey, uh, just so you know, I'm going to the doctor. 00:28:06.240 --> 00:28:07.020 I'm really worried. 00:28:07.080 --> 00:28:08.800 Like, could you use some, some prayer on this? 00:28:09.640 --> 00:28:13.280 And the guys that were not around, man, Jeff, I'm so sorry you're going through this. 00:28:13.340 --> 00:28:16.620 Tell it, tell us how we can help you in this, you know, tell us what we can do. 00:28:16.680 --> 00:28:17.580 Glad, glad to do it. 00:28:17.760 --> 00:28:22.740 And they're texting me and they're there, you know, throughout the, throughout the day asking how it's going. 00:28:22.740 --> 00:28:29.840 As a matter of fact, literally while I'm having this conversation, my text message just rang in my head and another text came in from, from one of them. 00:28:30.220 --> 00:28:34.580 But the funny thing was the local guys, the same thing. 00:28:34.940 --> 00:28:41.380 Like one of them picked up the phone and actually like prayed for me over the phone and, and asked some questions, you know, in the moment. 00:28:42.080 --> 00:28:59.960 Um, another one texted me, Hey, let us know how we can be praying and, and, and what, what, if your family needs anything like the, the response of a digital church, uh, people and physical church people, physical and digital, you know, in that moment played the same way. 00:28:59.960 --> 00:29:06.400 And so it's, to me, it's really interesting how it's, Oh, you can't do physical and we can't do digital. 00:29:06.400 --> 00:29:13.100 It's gotta be physical, but in, in many of the same ways, it's, it's response is, is driven the same way. 00:29:13.100 --> 00:29:18.360 It's, it's asking questions and engaging in conversations via digital, whatever. 00:29:18.540 --> 00:29:19.800 So, sorry, that was a tangent. 00:29:19.800 --> 00:29:25.040 I just felt like I, I, I wanted sympathy for the fact that I almost felt like I was going to lose my legs today, but that's, that's. 00:29:25.160 --> 00:29:35.300 I'm, I'm always, I felt the, the past week as, uh, as, uh, I'm, I'm losing half of my face because I had a lot of, uh, inflammation down my teeth. 00:29:35.340 --> 00:29:35.720 Oh gosh. 00:29:35.920 --> 00:29:38.740 And you know, that's, that's the kind of thing where you don't sleep for days. 00:29:38.740 --> 00:29:45.040 Uh, I, I don't want to compare it to your, uh, legs, but also a lot of people, uh, praying together with me. 00:29:45.820 --> 00:29:46.100 Awesome. 00:29:46.300 --> 00:29:46.420 What? 00:29:46.680 --> 00:29:47.760 No, I should just say that's horrible. 00:29:47.860 --> 00:29:48.380 That's not awesome. 00:29:49.440 --> 00:30:01.380 I'm, I'm all with you, um, regarding the, the, the point that, um, digital community or the way people pray for you doesn't depend on they live in the same city for the, um, digital church plant. 00:30:01.380 --> 00:30:13.360 I'm a part of myself, the beta church, we call it, um, where there's people really all over Germany from all, all different places of Germany, also from other countries, Germans living in other countries. 00:30:13.920 --> 00:30:18.700 Um, and what I really love is that digital church can do some things analog church can't. 00:30:18.880 --> 00:30:23.260 For example, one of our, uh, one of our, well, should I say members? 00:30:23.380 --> 00:30:24.140 Let's say members. 00:30:24.480 --> 00:30:31.380 Uh, she moved from the South of Germany to the North of Germany and said, okay, everything will be new, new job, new people, but I got my church with me. 00:30:31.700 --> 00:30:44.220 And that is really in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in a time where people are more and more, um, uh, migrating because of job because they have to move along more and more. 00:30:44.340 --> 00:30:46.620 That is such a great opportunity. 00:30:46.840 --> 00:30:50.400 And also for other people, one of our guys is living in, in the Netherlands. 00:30:50.620 --> 00:30:55.320 There is just no German speaking church for him available, but bitter church is his church. 00:30:55.320 --> 00:30:58.440 And they have now gotten the first baby. 00:30:58.580 --> 00:31:02.220 They will probably move some other place, but the church will always be there. 00:31:02.540 --> 00:31:03.300 That is what I love. 00:31:03.660 --> 00:31:05.580 No, digital church can't do everything. 00:31:05.740 --> 00:31:12.060 It has its deficient parts, but analog church, let's be honest, also is deficient in some ways. 00:31:12.680 --> 00:31:14.340 So give me a, give me a two minute spiel. 00:31:14.580 --> 00:31:20.020 Like, tell me a little bit of what beta church, uh, is, how it operates, uh, platforms, environments. 00:31:20.020 --> 00:31:21.920 Like, give me the, give me the brass tacks. 00:31:22.380 --> 00:31:23.380 It's quite easy, actually. 00:31:23.500 --> 00:31:25.660 It's a very, very little church plant. 00:31:26.880 --> 00:31:28.900 We've been starting through Corona. 00:31:29.500 --> 00:31:34.040 Um, there are something like perhaps two, one or two hundred people registered. 00:31:34.480 --> 00:31:37.400 Our church, uh, building, so to say is an app. 00:31:37.600 --> 00:31:42.580 It's not an app we built all by ourself, but it's a church app that is, uh, from a, uh, 00:31:42.580 --> 00:31:47.380 original, original programmer who develops apps for a lot of churches, for all, uh, churches 00:31:47.380 --> 00:31:49.820 in our, uh, church, uh, federation. 00:31:50.540 --> 00:31:57.220 So, um, we are, we, we got a core team of perhaps two, core and founder team of perhaps 00:31:57.220 --> 00:31:57.880 12 people. 00:31:57.880 --> 00:32:03.300 We got no, we got a lot of theologians, but we got no one who is, uh, paid by the church 00:32:03.300 --> 00:32:06.640 with, it's all just people sharing the time they have. 00:32:07.400 --> 00:32:13.280 Um, we got at the moment, uh, church services once a month, Sunday evening at half past eight. 00:32:13.280 --> 00:32:18.880 So afterwards you can go to the mood to, to, to watch a movie after the Sunday service on 00:32:18.880 --> 00:32:19.600 your couch. 00:32:20.240 --> 00:32:25.840 And the heart of beta church, in my thought has to be digital communities because it's 00:32:25.840 --> 00:32:26.820 all about communities. 00:32:27.060 --> 00:32:31.300 It's about people really getting in real touch in a digital manner. 00:32:31.960 --> 00:32:38.560 So, um, we have, uh, one, one, one, one digital community, which started out as, um, sweating 00:32:38.560 --> 00:32:39.020 together. 00:32:39.020 --> 00:32:44.240 I guess it would, would be the name in English, um, was doing sports digitally, digitally together, 00:32:44.240 --> 00:32:49.880 but out of it formed, uh, uh, formed kind of a small group where they're having Bible 00:32:49.880 --> 00:32:50.480 discussions. 00:32:50.480 --> 00:32:54.500 Um, I'll start tomorrow at, uh, 12. 00:32:54.800 --> 00:32:59.800 I start the midday prayer for everybody who's willing to have half an hour praying together 00:32:59.800 --> 00:33:04.180 during the, um, during the, uh, uh, midday break. 00:33:04.180 --> 00:33:13.480 Um, we got, uh, um, uh, something like Bible studies just for five meetings afterwards and 00:33:13.480 --> 00:33:14.780 we're experimenting with it. 00:33:15.400 --> 00:33:20.840 Um, we're just finishing our discussions on how to do membership. 00:33:21.580 --> 00:33:25.580 We're not finished with questions of what to do with children. 00:33:25.980 --> 00:33:30.500 What do we do if someone needs a funeral or, uh, needs a baptism? 00:33:32.020 --> 00:33:33.300 Well, it's beta church. 00:33:33.300 --> 00:33:34.640 It's, uh, just beta. 00:33:34.820 --> 00:33:41.760 We tried, we'd see where we land, but there are people for whom it is really the one church 00:33:41.760 --> 00:33:45.180 and what I experienced was really touched my heart is story of Julia. 00:33:45.400 --> 00:33:53.300 She was really, um, she had all church behind her, had all deconstructed, uh, her, her Christian 00:33:53.300 --> 00:33:58.800 face and she experienced, okay, something is missing, but I can't go back to one of these 00:33:58.800 --> 00:33:59.840 churches I've been in. 00:34:00.420 --> 00:34:08.100 And beta church was the place for her where she could do her many steps to get in contact 00:34:08.100 --> 00:34:08.860 with Jews again. 00:34:09.300 --> 00:34:14.280 And so if beta church is only for this one person or for persons like Julia, then it's 00:34:14.280 --> 00:34:19.560 worth doing and tried, trying it, uh, short insight, not so much tech. 00:34:19.720 --> 00:34:24.920 We, we started on with a lot of tools, but actually it's just the app, uh, zoom sometimes 00:34:24.920 --> 00:34:27.040 something like Slido, Mentimeter. 00:34:28.100 --> 00:34:33.680 Uh, sometimes we had something like my robots, uh, or did a little online gaming, but actually 00:34:33.680 --> 00:34:37.820 we, we, uh, we landed at the lowest entrance level possible. 00:34:38.420 --> 00:34:40.740 Almost everyone is capable of doing zoom. 00:34:41.100 --> 00:34:46.980 We got the app, which is quite a self-explanatory and most of the other stuff we try to keep 00:34:46.980 --> 00:34:47.280 simple. 00:34:47.480 --> 00:34:52.460 So no one will be kept from participating in our church because of technical stuff. 00:34:52.960 --> 00:34:58.020 I'd love to do something like, like, like spatial IO, you know, which is this VR stuff where 00:34:58.020 --> 00:34:59.280 you can meet in digital rooms. 00:34:59.520 --> 00:35:04.860 But, uh, if half of the church won't manage it to come in, uh, I think that's not the right, 00:35:04.920 --> 00:35:05.800 right thing to do. 00:35:06.360 --> 00:35:06.800 Yeah. 00:35:07.020 --> 00:35:11.980 Now, Stuart McPherson might want to have a conversation with you about how to make spatial a little easier, 00:35:11.980 --> 00:35:14.900 but, uh, we, we can, we can figure that out later. 00:35:15.300 --> 00:35:22.020 Um, now you said something about, um, uh, don't sweat or sweat while you work or whatever, 00:35:22.020 --> 00:35:25.620 like it, like a target audience, you reaching more athletic and sports crowd. 00:35:26.220 --> 00:35:30.040 Um, does, does beta church, does that have a target audience? 00:35:30.040 --> 00:35:33.660 Like, have you all moved towards having a targeted approach? 00:35:33.860 --> 00:35:36.580 The other ways around, we just started beta church. 00:35:36.580 --> 00:35:43.000 And during the process of, um, focusing how our customer journey, so to say, should look 00:35:43.000 --> 00:35:50.680 like, we, um, looked at the people who are participating in beta church and, um, focused, found four 00:35:50.680 --> 00:35:51.400 focus groups. 00:35:51.400 --> 00:35:59.120 We see, we, uh, uh, did personas on them and there's something like, uh, something like, uh, 00:35:59.120 --> 00:36:03.780 the, uh, I cannot, I don't know how to translate in English. 00:36:03.780 --> 00:36:11.200 So, it would something like, um, uh, a woman who has, um, experienced, um, has experienced, 00:36:11.200 --> 00:36:17.280 um, has experienced, uh, bad things in churches or has, uh, suffered under... 00:36:17.280 --> 00:36:18.860 He's been burned, been hurt by the church. 00:36:19.240 --> 00:36:20.360 Yeah, like that. 00:36:20.580 --> 00:36:25.620 Who's really distanced to church, but still seeks Christian, uh, uh, community. 00:36:25.760 --> 00:36:26.380 This would be one. 00:36:26.500 --> 00:36:32.040 One, one person would be a person which, because of, uh, personal circumstances, because of working 00:36:32.040 --> 00:36:38.720 hours because of, um, uh, of, of health issues, of family at home, of parents at home, children 00:36:38.720 --> 00:36:42.880 at home, wouldn't be able to participate in a regular German, uh, regular church life. 00:36:43.060 --> 00:36:44.120 That would be one. 00:36:44.260 --> 00:36:50.600 Then we would, um, have one of our personas, um, going to digital nomads, people, German people 00:36:50.600 --> 00:36:54.320 working in places where there's just no Christian community available. 00:36:54.960 --> 00:37:01.640 And, uh, and one more, I don't get it, uh, got it, uh, present. 00:37:01.640 --> 00:37:10.520 So we got these four persona where we can say, okay, this, these are part of the target audience 00:37:10.520 --> 00:37:11.060 we are seeing. 00:37:11.320 --> 00:37:18.160 Now, church leaders in Germany may be, um, not comfortable with a digital ecclesiology, 00:37:18.160 --> 00:37:22.000 not comfortable with, with a church operating digital. 00:37:22.140 --> 00:37:23.300 Hey, how do you do baptism? 00:37:23.560 --> 00:37:24.940 What does communion look like? 00:37:25.460 --> 00:37:27.080 Uh, family generational. 00:37:27.080 --> 00:37:30.840 Like there's, there's still some questions that, that are out there with a digital expression 00:37:30.840 --> 00:37:31.340 of a church. 00:37:31.800 --> 00:37:33.000 It's a new concept. 00:37:33.160 --> 00:37:35.780 You know, give, give us, give us a couple of years to, you know, get it figured out. 00:37:36.360 --> 00:37:45.380 Um, are, are people, are de-churched people, unchurched people, like are, are, is German culture, 00:37:45.940 --> 00:37:49.400 are they open to a digital expression of a church? 00:37:49.400 --> 00:37:52.240 Like, have you noticed any, uh, hesitancy? 00:37:52.620 --> 00:37:55.440 Are they, the new people that come in, are they open and receptive? 00:37:55.680 --> 00:37:58.300 What's their response to the idea of, of a church digital? 00:37:58.800 --> 00:38:04.340 The people attending the church, they, I guess they're very open to it and they have no, uh, 00:38:04.340 --> 00:38:10.460 no offense against the idea of doing church digital because part of the people we are reaching 00:38:10.460 --> 00:38:15.960 are really people who are searching for something, who have been able to, uh, believe in, believe 00:38:15.960 --> 00:38:18.460 in Christ and trying to, to get their faith back. 00:38:19.420 --> 00:38:27.200 And one of the most interesting target audiences from my perspective would be those, um, who are 00:38:27.200 --> 00:38:29.420 on the way to believing, yeah? 00:38:29.420 --> 00:38:36.520 So, um, I, I told about our, our, uh, social media missionaries and on the one where you got a lot, 00:38:36.680 --> 00:38:43.440 lot of possibilities of, of good digital content or digital Christian influences or digital gamer 00:38:43.440 --> 00:38:50.900 communities where people can get in contact and have first, um, digital encounter with Christ. 00:38:51.780 --> 00:38:54.700 Um, and the question is, where do you go from that on? 00:38:55.000 --> 00:39:00.760 So I would say what, what people need from there on is, is getting in touch with, with someone, um, 00:39:00.760 --> 00:39:02.260 who can get the next step with them. 00:39:02.320 --> 00:39:08.680 They need to need, uh, any kind of a community where can, where they can be part of it. 00:39:08.680 --> 00:39:10.900 They need a place where to do discipleship. 00:39:10.900 --> 00:39:14.300 And I suppose at some day, some part, they will need a church. 00:39:14.520 --> 00:39:19.800 And for many of them who will travel a long way before doing their decision for Christ, 00:39:20.360 --> 00:39:26.100 I suppose that a digital church would be the perfect place to have to stay first. 00:39:26.620 --> 00:39:32.980 And why not afterwards have something like an analog, um, cell group in your town? 00:39:33.520 --> 00:39:40.560 Or because you have children switch over to an analog church in your town or whatever. 00:39:41.360 --> 00:39:48.700 I would say there's, uh, enough people who would in other ways not participate. 00:39:49.040 --> 00:39:56.720 So I see some pastors who are saying, who always start over with, uh, with baptism, 00:39:57.620 --> 00:40:04.780 with, um, some also with Lord's Supper or with, uh, with, uh, with, uh, with what, what happens 00:40:04.780 --> 00:40:08.560 when someone dies or was it with opposite children? 00:40:08.980 --> 00:40:11.140 And I got no finished answers for that. 00:40:11.300 --> 00:40:15.760 I don't think that digital church must have them. 00:40:15.760 --> 00:40:20.660 I think digital church needs to find their analog connect points. 00:40:21.240 --> 00:40:21.540 Yeah, no, no. 00:40:21.580 --> 00:40:22.600 I think, I think that's good. 00:40:22.680 --> 00:40:32.220 Like a, um, in 2024, there's value in community and now digital community does exist, um, where 00:40:32.220 --> 00:40:37.420 you, you know, get together, you know, even on a discord or a zoom call or, you know, mighty 00:40:37.420 --> 00:40:39.780 networks is what we use a lot or Facebook groups. 00:40:39.780 --> 00:40:42.780 Like there's, there's plenty of, of value towards community. 00:40:42.780 --> 00:40:49.220 And in fact, if your content is not driving to get people connected into a community, then 00:40:49.220 --> 00:40:56.060 you're effectively not reaching, um, a lot of the people that are available, like a consumer 00:40:56.060 --> 00:40:56.700 ideology. 00:40:56.700 --> 00:41:01.140 That's, that's like boomers and, um, and, and, and millennials. 00:41:01.140 --> 00:41:02.560 That's not that you're Gen X. 00:41:02.560 --> 00:41:08.080 I should say the Gen Z and Gen A, like their, their community, they're engaging, they're 00:41:08.080 --> 00:41:13.560 having conversations, they're, they're embracing this idea of digital community, uh, and, but 00:41:13.560 --> 00:41:17.680 digital community in itself has, has, let me, let's be honest, it has limitations. 00:41:17.680 --> 00:41:23.080 Now, the younger you are, the less those limitations play a part. 00:41:23.620 --> 00:41:30.020 Um, that being said, like even the guys who play video games every Friday night, every 00:41:30.020 --> 00:41:34.000 nights, four nights, five nights a week, they still like to hang out together every once 00:41:34.000 --> 00:41:35.860 in a while at, at a, at a ball game. 00:41:35.860 --> 00:41:38.780 They still like to, to get together in physical space. 00:41:38.780 --> 00:41:42.600 Like there's, there's an opportunity to, you know, the line that I always say, Simon, in 00:41:42.600 --> 00:41:47.900 this is it's not, um, it's not that digital churches don't do things physically. 00:41:48.000 --> 00:41:52.620 It's that they're not driven to do it every day, every week. 00:41:53.020 --> 00:41:57.980 Um, and that there's, I would suggest there's more intentionality around when it happens. 00:41:57.980 --> 00:42:02.140 You know, I can tell you stories of virtual reality churches that, that meet in physical 00:42:02.140 --> 00:42:06.640 space and people literally fly from across the country, from across the planet to come 00:42:06.640 --> 00:42:11.580 over into, uh, to, to San Francisco and to Northern California to get together for this 00:42:11.580 --> 00:42:13.640 virtual reality churches meetup. 00:42:13.900 --> 00:42:19.200 Um, just recently, all the gamer church guys got together, uh, a couple months ago down 00:42:19.200 --> 00:42:21.520 in, uh, in, uh, Dallas, Texas area. 00:42:21.520 --> 00:42:25.760 Like there, there's times where people come together in physical for community. 00:42:26.400 --> 00:42:30.760 Um, but I think there's a high level of appreciation for, for when that happens. 00:42:30.760 --> 00:42:36.960 And the idea of what you're describing, uh, having a church that grows micro churches that, 00:42:36.960 --> 00:42:40.760 that sells, I think you called them cell, cell groups with language doesn't matter. 00:42:40.760 --> 00:42:42.360 You're literally, you're speaking German. 00:42:42.760 --> 00:42:47.540 Uh, but the idea is, is that like that, uh, you know, Angela Craig was doing that through 00:42:47.540 --> 00:42:53.260 Pursuit Church live pre COVID was having huge success, uh, with, with that internationally. 00:42:53.260 --> 00:42:59.080 I know, I believe Dr. John's doing some of that now with, uh, with, uh, uh, hope, hope. 00:42:59.420 --> 00:42:59.900 Oh my gosh. 00:42:59.900 --> 00:43:01.480 You just blanked on Dr. John's church. 00:43:01.640 --> 00:43:04.980 Uh, Dr. John Harris, hope like his hearts, like his hearts, like his church. 00:43:05.360 --> 00:43:07.020 And so Dr. John, you're listening. 00:43:07.120 --> 00:43:07.520 I'm sorry. 00:43:07.760 --> 00:43:09.720 Uh, my thought it's been, it's, we need to catch up, sir. 00:43:09.740 --> 00:43:15.600 It's been a minute since we've talked, but, um, man, it's, it's the challenges that come. 00:43:15.660 --> 00:43:16.380 We don't run from. 00:43:16.380 --> 00:43:21.140 We, we, we figure out how, um, how to, how to overcome them. 00:43:21.260 --> 00:43:24.300 Like the, even the communion and the baptism. 00:43:24.300 --> 00:43:26.760 I mean, we can talk about ways to overcome that. 00:43:26.960 --> 00:43:31.240 Um, that's the challenge of, of baptism and what we're seeing. 00:43:31.480 --> 00:43:36.180 Uh, some, some people are open to listening and some, to be honest, are not open to hearing. 00:43:36.800 --> 00:43:42.560 And, uh, at least that's, that's the challenge that I'm facing here in America is, um, people 00:43:42.560 --> 00:43:46.820 that are very adamant of, of the right way to do church. 00:43:47.080 --> 00:43:51.240 And if, if we're honest, I'm not even sure their opinion of the right way to do 00:43:51.240 --> 00:43:53.220 church isn't, is biblical. 00:43:53.580 --> 00:43:59.660 Like they're, they're not pulling it from a biblical mandate as much as it is their opinions 00:43:59.660 --> 00:44:03.340 and how they are more often than not, how they grew up. 00:44:03.640 --> 00:44:07.280 Like it's what church was for them as a child when it was ingrained. 00:44:07.280 --> 00:44:13.380 And those characteristics, biblical or extra biblical become the, the, their ideological 00:44:13.380 --> 00:44:14.840 version of church. 00:44:15.060 --> 00:44:19.420 So I think we get one advantage here in Germany thinking about what you mentioned. 00:44:20.080 --> 00:44:22.640 One advantage is, uh, the size of our country. 00:44:23.020 --> 00:44:27.040 So for, to give you, give you an idea, I live in the middle, middle of Germany. 00:44:27.040 --> 00:44:33.540 So I've got the possibility to drive to every part of Germany without, uh, within one day. 00:44:33.540 --> 00:44:37.900 So yesterday I've been to the deepest East of Germany for a Sunday sermon. 00:44:38.740 --> 00:44:40.600 Um, today, uh, I'm back. 00:44:41.300 --> 00:44:47.540 And that is really advantage because what you said for Bitter Church also, after one year 00:44:47.540 --> 00:44:48.760 we had an analog meeting. 00:44:49.180 --> 00:44:54.160 So all Bitter Church come, did came together in the middle of Germany and was fascinating 00:44:54.160 --> 00:44:54.620 for me. 00:44:55.020 --> 00:45:01.620 Most of the people I recognize the first time they, um, uh, existed with, with legs and, uh, 00:45:01.620 --> 00:45:06.180 with, with a backside because I only had them on zoom, but coming together, it was just 00:45:06.180 --> 00:45:07.360 like, okay, this is church. 00:45:07.500 --> 00:45:09.040 This is church, there's nothing missing. 00:45:09.420 --> 00:45:12.280 The people I see analog the first time, they are my church. 00:45:12.780 --> 00:45:14.540 So that was really fascinating for me. 00:45:14.540 --> 00:45:20.640 And I think that is regarding, uh, um, in, in comparison to, uh, the size of the youth, 00:45:20.740 --> 00:45:26.600 youth, the U S that's a real opportunity to Germany to do digital church and to be able 00:45:26.600 --> 00:45:29.520 to meet the other, uh, people in analog ways. 00:45:29.760 --> 00:45:35.660 So for example, regarding baptism, why not say we're a digital church, we're connected to 00:45:35.660 --> 00:45:36.520 many other churches. 00:45:36.520 --> 00:45:41.480 So if someone comes to faith and want to, we get baptized, okay, who is in this region? 00:45:41.480 --> 00:45:46.680 Five people get together, someone, uh, someone who's, uh, doing pastoral work in that region 00:45:46.680 --> 00:45:47.400 is getting there. 00:45:47.560 --> 00:45:49.420 Let's pipe, let's baptize him. 00:45:49.820 --> 00:45:53.660 For example, not a final answer, but a possibility. 00:45:54.160 --> 00:45:54.300 Yeah. 00:45:55.120 --> 00:45:55.360 Yeah. 00:45:55.500 --> 00:45:57.800 And, yeah. 00:45:57.840 --> 00:46:06.220 And the questions of, uh, of, uh, ecclesiological, uh, ecclesiological, um, um, issues of digital 00:46:06.220 --> 00:46:06.560 church. 00:46:06.640 --> 00:46:13.960 Well, um, I would say if you always keep, keep on discussing, if it is perfectly right, then 00:46:13.960 --> 00:46:17.680 you will never, um, start trying new ways of church. 00:46:17.680 --> 00:46:23.520 And we're in a time where we need to try new versions of church and not all will be right, 00:46:23.520 --> 00:46:26.520 but, uh, some will shape the future of a church. 00:46:27.840 --> 00:46:32.800 Are you talking to other countries or do you know people in other areas of Europe that 00:46:32.800 --> 00:46:36.680 are, that are thinking this way and that, that are experimenting? 00:46:36.960 --> 00:46:38.560 Like what, what does the rest of Europe look like? 00:46:38.800 --> 00:46:40.140 Can't say for the rest of Europe. 00:46:40.480 --> 00:46:46.360 I'm at, um, for the past years, I've been, uh, heading out to connect as, uh, much as 00:46:46.360 --> 00:46:46.860 possible. 00:46:47.400 --> 00:46:50.100 That's my topic in the mission agency here in Germany. 00:46:50.100 --> 00:46:54.200 So I love to see ways of digital mission growing throughout the world. 00:46:54.760 --> 00:46:56.080 Lausanne movement is a big help. 00:46:56.180 --> 00:46:57.980 Digital church network is a big help. 00:46:58.100 --> 00:47:02.780 Indigitus is, Indigitus, especially in Asia is very, uh, fascinating. 00:47:02.800 --> 00:47:05.180 to get in touch with a lot of people. 00:47:06.060 --> 00:47:13.320 Um, there are some digital church, um, plants in Eastern Europe, partly I have been in contact 00:47:13.320 --> 00:47:18.180 with, um, but, uh, actually it's not so much. 00:47:18.240 --> 00:47:20.220 I see some contacts growing. 00:47:20.320 --> 00:47:26.580 I'm really looking forward, especially at the, uh, Lausanne, uh, global gathering in 00:47:26.580 --> 00:47:27.940 Seoul in this September. 00:47:27.940 --> 00:47:30.780 I'm really looking forward to meeting a lot of people. 00:47:30.780 --> 00:47:36.100 I only got to know, uh, digitally so far, analog for at least once in my life. 00:47:36.740 --> 00:47:38.100 It would be a great opportunity. 00:47:54.100 --> 00:47:56.080 Uh, I guess not. 00:47:56.820 --> 00:47:57.540 I guess I should. 00:47:58.420 --> 00:47:59.160 Yeah, yeah, you should. 00:47:59.280 --> 00:48:00.400 I'll make, I'll make a connection. 00:48:00.560 --> 00:48:10.220 He's with, um, he's with crew global and, uh, yeah, it's, uh, he's doing, um, you know, 00:48:10.220 --> 00:48:15.020 it's interesting, you know, there's a couple of people that more than a couple, but there's 00:48:15.020 --> 00:48:20.340 some people internationally that I'm, I'm silently recruiting and, and kind of gently pushing, 00:48:20.340 --> 00:48:25.000 trying to be like, Hey, why don't you like start to actually launch some things digitally 00:48:25.000 --> 00:48:30.420 or start to resource or, you know, what would, what would, how can we help you like do this 00:48:30.420 --> 00:48:31.240 in your context? 00:48:31.480 --> 00:48:36.680 Um, you know, the church digital formerly digital church network, like, you know, I, I don't 00:48:36.680 --> 00:48:38.020 know anything about Germany. 00:48:38.380 --> 00:48:43.440 Uh, and so the, the fact that, you know, Jeff go do help plant digital churches in Germany. 00:48:43.440 --> 00:48:45.180 I would be horrible at that. 00:48:45.320 --> 00:48:47.240 Now you doing that is awesome. 00:48:47.440 --> 00:48:48.820 And so how can I help you do that? 00:48:48.860 --> 00:48:49.920 Let's, let's talk about that. 00:48:49.980 --> 00:48:57.440 Actually, I had a woman, um, approach me about launching a, uh, metaverse, a virtual reality 00:48:57.440 --> 00:49:00.060 church network, um, in South Africa. 00:49:00.500 --> 00:49:04.580 Like they wanted me to be the face of a virtual reality church network in South Africa. 00:49:05.140 --> 00:49:09.200 And just, I had the honor of telling her, I was like, that is the stupidest idea on the 00:49:09.200 --> 00:49:09.600 planet. 00:49:09.600 --> 00:49:12.400 Like, I don't know anything about South Africa. 00:49:12.400 --> 00:49:14.540 So I, like the context would be horrible. 00:49:14.880 --> 00:49:18.240 Now, you know, a lot more about South Africa than I do. 00:49:18.280 --> 00:49:23.340 So how can I help you be the face of, of, of, uh, and, and so we're actually, you know, 00:49:23.340 --> 00:49:26.480 in process and working with her now and training and equipping her towards that. 00:49:26.760 --> 00:49:31.180 But Kajus is another one of these guys that, that I'm just like, Ooh, we gotta, we gotta, 00:49:31.260 --> 00:49:35.320 we gotta figure out how to, how to get him moving in, in Eastern Europe. 00:49:35.460 --> 00:49:40.540 Uh, man, how can, how can we, how, how can the church digital, how can we help you, uh, 00:49:40.540 --> 00:49:41.360 start more churches in Germany? 00:49:41.360 --> 00:49:43.460 Well, I guess that's a lot. 00:49:43.460 --> 00:49:46.380 Um, the church digital is already doing for me. 00:49:46.380 --> 00:49:50.240 It is a lot of listen and learn, um, see people from other places of the world. 00:49:50.240 --> 00:49:55.340 So my first contact was a digital, uh, church summit, I guess I was in the Midwest church 00:49:55.340 --> 00:49:55.640 summit. 00:49:55.640 --> 00:50:01.100 So really seeing people already doing things and, uh, experiencing how, how they are doing 00:50:01.100 --> 00:50:05.400 that, how they are doing, uh, thinking theology, how they are practicing that. 00:50:05.640 --> 00:50:09.740 Second thing is connected and encourage, connect like we are doing today. 00:50:09.740 --> 00:50:14.720 Connect with as many people as possible who are in the same sphere and encourage each other. 00:50:14.720 --> 00:50:23.480 That is not just your, your, your mad idea that it's really kingdom minded working, um, towards 00:50:23.480 --> 00:50:27.660 one future of the church, not the only future of the church. 00:50:27.660 --> 00:50:33.600 And the third thing, third thing would be to share and to multiply, share concepts we have. 00:50:33.600 --> 00:50:37.980 We, they always, always, uh, already, uh, always need, uh, contextualization. 00:50:37.980 --> 00:50:43.000 So I love you bless concept, but the best concept needs contextualization to be used in Germany, 00:50:43.000 --> 00:50:47.280 for example, and then multiply, share the good things. 00:50:47.280 --> 00:50:51.180 Like, like Paul said, uh, test everything, take out the good things of it. 00:50:51.180 --> 00:50:53.820 And that bring them, bring them into multiplication. 00:50:53.820 --> 00:50:56.480 And the most important thing, keep praying for each other. 00:50:56.480 --> 00:51:02.300 That is what I'm really experiencing that is needed, especially for those who are forerunners. 00:51:02.300 --> 00:51:08.620 They need people standing behind them and praying for them, like the guys who've been praying 00:51:08.620 --> 00:51:09.660 for you today, Jeff. 00:51:09.660 --> 00:51:11.020 Awesome, man. 00:51:11.020 --> 00:51:12.160 I, I so appreciate that. 00:51:12.160 --> 00:51:13.680 Uh, it's, it's funny. 00:51:13.680 --> 00:51:18.560 The, the first time that I publicly used the, the bless concept for, for digital missions, 00:51:18.560 --> 00:51:25.260 uh, actually I was speaking, uh, for your, for your deal, uh, Simon, it was, uh, I don't, 00:51:25.260 --> 00:51:26.100 I don't, I don't, mission alliance. 00:51:26.100 --> 00:51:29.180 It was Luzon, Luzon, Luzon, Luzon, Luzon, Luzon, Luzon, Luzon, yeah. 00:51:29.180 --> 00:51:32.180 And, and, and so, uh, I woke up at like three in the morning. 00:51:32.300 --> 00:51:33.740 To go speak at this thing. 00:51:33.740 --> 00:51:36.620 And, uh, I was like, Oh, you know what I'll it's new material. 00:51:36.620 --> 00:51:37.420 I'll give it a shot. 00:51:37.420 --> 00:51:38.420 Let's see if it works. 00:51:38.420 --> 00:51:42.260 And, uh, I literally, I was like five minutes before I showed up in, in this thing online 00:51:42.260 --> 00:51:44.660 to speak is 3:30 in the morning Eastern. 00:51:44.660 --> 00:51:51.300 And, um, I, I, I literally, as I showed up, I realized bless is an English word. 00:51:51.300 --> 00:51:55.180 The contextualization of this isn't going to work in Germany, Jeff, you're an idiot. 00:51:55.180 --> 00:51:57.100 And so like quickly, I'm in the chat. 00:51:57.100 --> 00:51:59.140 Uh, I don't think this is going to work. 00:51:59.140 --> 00:52:03.040 You may need to help me contextualize this cause I'm, I'm going to like crash and burn 00:52:03.040 --> 00:52:04.620 here in about 10 minutes. 00:52:04.620 --> 00:52:10.660 Um, but I, listen, I, I, I know Layton, you know, you and I have had a relationship for 00:52:10.660 --> 00:52:16.420 a year, um, or so digging into things and, and, and exploring this digitally. 00:52:16.420 --> 00:52:20.640 Um, I, this may be the first time or maybe, maybe two or three times we've, we've jumped 00:52:20.640 --> 00:52:24.580 on a zoom call or something, but very physical, very few, uh, visual. 00:52:24.580 --> 00:52:26.780 Um, and I don't think we've ever been in the same room, right? 00:52:26.780 --> 00:52:28.480 You've not, we've not connected physically at all. 00:52:28.480 --> 00:52:29.480 Hmm. 00:52:29.480 --> 00:52:30.480 No, not yet. 00:52:30.480 --> 00:52:32.860 Um, but what's, uh, yeah, we'll save it for Korea. 00:52:32.860 --> 00:52:35.980 We'll, we'll just fly to the other half of the planet to get that. 00:52:35.980 --> 00:52:42.480 But the, um, to me, like Layton mentioned to me, uh, Layton's our, our relationships guy 00:52:42.480 --> 00:52:43.480 with the church digital. 00:52:43.480 --> 00:52:44.800 Um, and, and it was funny. 00:52:44.800 --> 00:52:48.980 He said to me, he says, Hey, Simon's planning a digital church, um, starting like a digital 00:52:48.980 --> 00:52:49.940 church network in Germany. 00:52:50.660 --> 00:52:55.120 Um, and, uh, and, and, and Layton's like, you know, should we, should we be helping him? 00:52:55.120 --> 00:52:56.480 And I was like, heck yes. 00:52:56.720 --> 00:52:56.920 Yeah. 00:52:56.920 --> 00:53:00.100 Like, you know, that's why, why are we even asking the question? 00:53:00.100 --> 00:53:01.120 The answer is already yes. 00:53:01.520 --> 00:53:06.840 Um, you know, we, we started the church digital, uh, to help crazy people in America and draw 00:53:06.840 --> 00:53:10.940 attention to what they were doing and Germany and Eastern Europe. 00:53:11.180 --> 00:53:14.840 And we're doing a lot of work, it feels like in Africa, a lot of interest down there. 00:53:15.380 --> 00:53:20.020 Um, Philippines is our, is in our top three right now, actually content, uh, consuming, 00:53:20.260 --> 00:53:21.180 uh, which is crazy. 00:53:21.180 --> 00:53:24.700 Like there are people in the Philippines that are processing the stuff that we're talking 00:53:24.700 --> 00:53:25.740 about with digital church. 00:53:25.940 --> 00:53:30.360 And so, uh, you know, for you, all of you that are out there, whether you're, you know, 00:53:30.420 --> 00:53:34.680 domestic on my side of the planet or on the other side of the planet, the ideas of what 00:53:34.680 --> 00:53:39.140 we're talking about here and contextualizing this, this idea and this concept for the kingdom, 00:53:39.140 --> 00:53:44.080 uh, to reach the people that, that are, uh, de-churched and unchurched that have given 00:53:44.080 --> 00:53:45.980 up on the building or will never go to the building. 00:53:46.620 --> 00:53:51.700 Um, why not take the effort to reach a different type of person, uh, doing the things that, that 00:53:51.700 --> 00:53:57.060 Simon's describing, uh, by following a biblical model that may not align to the opinions of 00:53:57.060 --> 00:54:00.500 today, which are opinions and not necessarily a biblical mandate. 00:54:00.500 --> 00:54:05.900 And so listen, um, I, I want to thank you all for listening to Simon. 00:54:06.060 --> 00:54:07.960 I want to thank you for this podcast. 00:54:08.060 --> 00:54:11.480 This podcast has been, uh, a year in the making. 00:54:11.480 --> 00:54:18.040 Like we have, we have had the hardest time aligning, uh, on time zone timelines and things 00:54:18.040 --> 00:54:18.340 like that. 00:54:18.340 --> 00:54:22.540 And honestly, like there are two things I don't understand in life, the metric system and time 00:54:22.540 --> 00:54:22.820 zones. 00:54:22.820 --> 00:54:27.500 And so having a conversation with you has been very hard because it challenged the time 00:54:27.500 --> 00:54:28.800 zone aspect a lot. 00:54:29.200 --> 00:54:31.100 Uh, but I'm glad we finally did it. 00:54:31.100 --> 00:54:35.180 And we're going to have more of these because I want to keep up with what's going on with, 00:54:35.180 --> 00:54:37.700 uh, with this experiment of digital churches in Germany. 00:54:38.040 --> 00:54:40.700 Uh, cause that's, that's hugely exciting to me. 00:54:40.700 --> 00:54:44.200 And I'm appreciative of the fact it's like nine, 10 o'clock at night and you're doing this 00:54:44.200 --> 00:54:47.260 podcast interview with me on a, on a Monday night, which is awesome too. 00:54:47.260 --> 00:54:51.420 So as, as we're landing the plane here, um, any, any closing thoughts? 00:54:52.160 --> 00:54:56.560 Well, I think I'd like to point out, thank you very much for the church digital, for giving 00:54:56.560 --> 00:55:01.820 us a digital home for our, uh, German digital church plant network. 00:55:01.820 --> 00:55:05.760 We call it a cloud Kirche, which means a cloud church, so to say. 00:55:06.180 --> 00:55:13.040 So if any German, any German speaking people out there, out there who want to go onto church, 00:55:13.040 --> 00:55:19.100 uh, church planting, join the, join the fam, join the digital church and come to our, uh, 00:55:19.100 --> 00:55:25.720 channel, um, cloud Kirche, it would be great to get in contact with all of you. 00:55:25.720 --> 00:55:35.680 And thank you very much, Jeff, you, uh, actually are the, uh, the, the starting point why we 00:55:35.680 --> 00:55:43.020 as a German mission agency today have a region, not only geographical, but region digital. 00:55:43.020 --> 00:55:49.560 Because during the time we were on our, uh, uh, think tanks, thinking new things and so on, 00:55:49.560 --> 00:55:56.200 I, uh, stumbled across, uh, the church, the digital church network and the, uh, digital 00:55:56.200 --> 00:55:56.800 church summit. 00:55:56.800 --> 00:55:58.680 And that was really an ignition. 00:55:59.120 --> 00:56:03.120 So thank you for what you, uh, brought up here in Germany. 00:56:03.720 --> 00:56:06.280 Oh, um, um, I, I did not realize that. 00:56:06.280 --> 00:56:08.340 So I'm, I'm honored and flattered by that. 00:56:08.560 --> 00:56:09.000 Thank you. 00:56:09.300 --> 00:56:13.000 Um, there are other idiots too in the world that, that, that are, 00:56:13.000 --> 00:56:14.460 we're talking about, this is not just me. 00:56:14.460 --> 00:56:15.880 So let's, let's give some of them credit. 00:56:16.180 --> 00:56:16.360 Yeah. 00:56:16.460 --> 00:56:18.460 Let's get some more idiots talk. 00:56:18.540 --> 00:56:21.000 And, uh, let's get some more idiots out there doing this as well. 00:56:21.040 --> 00:56:25.400 Like it's, it's, it's, it's, uh, 2024 is the year of the crazies. 00:56:25.400 --> 00:56:26.460 I firmly do believe it. 00:56:26.600 --> 00:56:26.960 23. 00:56:27.880 --> 00:56:30.460 Um, to be honest, there was some backlash against the innovators. 00:56:30.460 --> 00:56:34.680 Like you, you, we can talk about Elon Musk and Tesla and Twitter and all that. 00:56:34.760 --> 00:56:38.400 And yes, you're the guys wacko at some level, but he's also an innovator. 00:56:38.600 --> 00:56:43.480 Uh, there was a lot of backlash against blockchain and crypto, AR, VR kind of went down. 00:56:43.480 --> 00:56:46.140 I, you know, I, I feel it tipping a little bit here in 24. 00:56:47.060 --> 00:56:51.700 Um, even in church space, there's some, some stats that I'm not allowed to say publicly yet. 00:56:52.060 --> 00:56:56.280 I cannot wait to say them, uh, because it, to me, it's really exciting. 00:56:56.280 --> 00:57:04.560 And it tells the story of how the church, uh, today in 24 is hungry to reach different people. 00:57:04.560 --> 00:57:08.220 And, or, and I believe are going to be reengaging more in digital and virtual spaces. 00:57:08.220 --> 00:57:11.380 And so, uh, the best is yet to come, man. 00:57:11.380 --> 00:57:14.820 That's a horrible pun in on a podcast, but we're going to land the plane there. 00:57:14.940 --> 00:57:15.860 We're going to call it a day. 00:57:15.920 --> 00:57:19.800 Hey, for, uh, for Simon, this is Jeff with the church digital. 00:57:20.680 --> 00:57:23.220 Thanks for jumping on this podcast and we'll see you next time on the show. 00:57:23.540 --> 00:57:24.060 Y'all have a good day.